Survival tips for living and prospering under Martial Law

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Has anyone on this forum ACTUALLY lived under military rule or martial law?

How about some REAL life, actual tips you used?

How do you get thru the day, how do you party?

Please, ONLY people who actually lived under these type conditions in other places.

We need some tips here in the U.S., seriously.

If you have not lived under these conditions or similar in another country, please keep your political comments to yourself, maybe we can get some useful tips to put away on the back burner before this thread gets deleted, if it even makes it out.

Most here are not even prepared for a weather disaster in their own state,even if it happened multiple times, much less this situation.

Real stories/tips, no propaganda for any side, thanks.


The 13th Warrior
  • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
    Originally Posted by The 13th Warrior View Post

    Has anyone on this forum ACTUALLY lived under military rule or martial law?<snip>
    I think most of the people on this forum are living under martial law, whether they know it or not.

    I lived in Argentina when it was under brutal dictatorships and, if it wasn't for diplomatic passport, would have become one of the "disappeared" myself after military thugs randomly attacked me.
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    • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
      Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post


      if it wasn't for diplomatic passport,


      Thanks.

      Note to self: have at least 2 copies of diplomatic passport.

      Got it.


      The 13th Warrior
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    I'd love to hear your definition of "martial law".


    TL
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    • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      I'd love to hear your definition of "martial law".


      TL
      A few of aspects of martial law would be when police are massively militarized, apply violence to crush non-violent dissent, and when people can be plucked off the street and imprisoned without trial for arbitrary reasons.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        Martial law can also be when a natural disaster strikes. It can restore order, control traffic to allow emergency vehicles through, speed distribution of emergency supplies, limit resource use to direct resources where they are most needed, keep the criminal element in check (looters), etc.

        I lived under "emergency" law after Katrina and it wasn't comfortable to have to keep curfews in mind or use less "stuff" than I was accustomed to. It wasn't great to be stopped and redirected at checkpoints, etc - but it was necessary to restore services and keep order.

        That said, I've been in a country where the law was "martial law" and you watch your step, keep your mouth shut and know the rules. If you are living that way - you know it.

        I have to say the last thing on my mind was "how do I party". But - you adapt.
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        • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          <snip>

          That said, I've been in a country where the law was "martial law" and you watch your step, keep your mouth shut and know the rules. If you are living that way - you know it.
          When you're plucked off the street beaten, taken to a secret holding cell, and tortured, you know it. But your family and friends, whose lives are otherwise normal in all respects, might not know it.
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      • Profile picture of the author Sunfyre7896
        Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

        A few of aspects of martial law would be when police are massively militarized, apply violence to crush non-violent dissent, and when people can be plucked off the street and imprisoned without trial for arbitrary reasons.
        The second already happened a few times with Occupy and the last one could be possible with the new NDAA being signed into law. I don't want to make this political, so I'm just stating a fact because it's in the bill and that's all I'm going to say on this.
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  • In the US, it is still referred to as "Posse Comitatus"...
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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by MoneyMagnetMagnate View Post

      In the US, it is still referred to as "Posse Comitatus"...
      Not unless the law that was just passed is vetoed by Obama. If he does not veto that bill, we have no habeas corpus or Posse Comitatus. I've been trying to get every person I can to call the white house, or begin impeachment and recall proceedings against anyone who signed that bill. We are one stroke of Obama's pen from no longer having any form of due process in this country. Which was more than surely the motivation for this thread.
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      • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
        Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

        Not unless the law that was just passed is vetoed by Obama. If he does not veto that bill, we have no habeas corpus or Posse Comitatus. I've been trying to get every person I can to call the white house, or begin impeachment and recall proceedings against anyone who signed that bill. We are one stroke of Obama's pen from no longer having any form of due process in this country. Which was more than surely the motivation for this thread.


        None of that (impeachment or recall stuff ) is going to happen period.

        anyways...

        Jon Stewart has an interesting take on this bill and on why the admin is threatening to veto it.

        Here's the link if you're interested.

        His take is in the first 10 minutes of the video.

        December 07, 2011 - Ralph Fiennes - The Daily Show With Jon Stewart - Full Episode Video | Comedy Central


        TL
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          All the above notwithstanding, the fact remains that the overwhelming majority of people reading this thread will actually never experience anything even close to martial law.
          Exactly. It's interesting to argue it and bluster about it. If you live it, the advice from tommy sounds spot on. You don't argue or question - you keep your head down and your mouth shut to survive. You do nothing to call attention to yourself.

          Good thing we don't live under it - we're too outspoken to survive
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        • Profile picture of the author ThomM
          Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

          None of that (impeachment or recall stuff ) is going to happen period.

          anyways...

          Jon Stewart has an interesting take on this bill and on why the admin is threatening to veto it.

          Here's the link if you're interested.

          His take is in the first 10 minutes of the video.

          December 07, 2011 - Ralph Fiennes - The Daily Show With Jon Stewart - Full Episode Video | Comedy Central


          TL
          You may want to watch this TL.
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      • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
        Originally Posted by HeySal View Post


        Not unless the law that was just passed is vetoed by Obama. If he does not veto that bill, we have no habeas corpus or Posse Comitatus. I've been trying to get every person I can to call the white house, or begin impeachment and recall proceedings against anyone who signed that bill. We are one stroke of Obama's pen from no longer having any form of due process in this country. Which was more than surely the motivation for this thread.

        Corruption is too deep, if you impeach them, which will never happen, you simply get a fresh crop sell-outs with price tags to the highest bidder.

        Besides, the President will probably veto it because executive powers give the President the ability to do what they voted for anyway.


        The 13th Warrior
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        • Profile picture of the author ThomM
          Originally Posted by The 13th Warrior View Post

          Corruption is too deep, if you impeach them, which will never happen, you simply get a fresh crop sell-outs with price tags to the highest bidder.

          Besides, the President will probably veto it because executive powers give the President the ability to do what they voted for anyway.


          The 13th Warrior
          Look at the video I posted further up.
          It was the administration that requested the language in the bill that would protect US citizens be removed. Doesn't sound like a veto move to me.
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  • I really hate to add this...but it seems kind of timely, considering the subject -
    World News - American jailed for insulting Thai king - while living in Colorado
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    • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
      Originally Posted by MoneyMagnetMagnate View Post

      I really hate to add this...but it seems kind of timely, considering the subject -
      World News - American jailed for insulting Thai king - while living in Colorado
      He made the mistake of stepping on Thai territory.


      TL
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
        Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

        He made the mistake of stepping on Thai territory.
        Yes, indeed ... and interestingly it seems he went there from the US "to seek treatment for arthritis and high blood pressure", or so he said. That can't be common, surely?
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        • Profile picture of the author Dave Patterson
          Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

          Yes, indeed ... and interestingly it seems he went there from the US "to seek treatment for arthritis and high blood pressure", or so he said. That can't be common, surely?
          I believe that was a BS excuse. I think the guy knew EXACTLY what he was doing from the beginning....

          I'm just waiting for the WHY?
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        • Profile picture of the author LarryC
          Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

          Yes, indeed ... and interestingly it seems he went there from the US "to seek treatment for arthritis and high blood pressure", or so he said. That can't be common, surely?
          Actually, it is getting common for people from the U.S. to go to countries like Thailand for medical care. It's known as "medical tourism." Just like many go to Mexico for dental work. This particular case might be a little different, though, as the person was apparently born in Thailand.

          Medical Tourism Thailand: Guide for Thailand's Medical Tourism
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        • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
          Let me suggest that this is not as straight forward as it appears.

          If anyone does more than a couple of minutes of research regarding Thailand, they will quickly find that there are 2 things you don't do.

          1) Drugs. Don't use'em, buy'em, take'em or bring'em. The penalty is death.

          2) Do not insult the monarchy.

          If I remember correctly this is a Thai born American citizen. Insulting the king, dumb.

          Joe Mobley


          Originally Posted by MoneyMagnetMagnate View Post

          I really hate to add this...but it seems kind of timely, considering the subject -
          World News - American jailed for insulting Thai king - while living in Colorado
          Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

          He made the mistake of stepping on Thai territory.
          Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

          Yes, indeed ... and interestingly it seems he went there from the US "to seek treatment for arthritis and high blood pressure", or so he said. That can't be common, surely?
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
    Its a bit creepy to see this thread after hearing about this story on yahoo news the other day:


    The yahoo article didn't have this video - Anonymous read their article in a spooky computer voice with a spooky mask.. so much more dramatic this way than just reading the article.

    But yeah, it is a true story and it was really reported on there..
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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by Whos That Guru View Post

      Its a bit creepy to see this thread after hearing about this story on yahoo news the other day:

      YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

      The yahoo article didn't have this video - Anonymous read their article in a spooky computer voice with a spooky mask.. so much more dramatic this way than just reading the article.

      But yeah, it is a true story and it was really reported on there..

      There's nothing more spooky than the fact our congress can vote away every freedom we have and there are still Americans screaming about tinfoil.
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      • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
        Originally Posted by HeySal View Post


        There's nothing more spooky than the fact our congress can vote away every freedom we have and there are still Americans screaming about tinfoil.

        They just showed us there is nothing they will NOT do for the World Elite.

        Besides walking right up to us and biting us on the nose, how much more they need to do to show us their true colors, they'll sell you, me, the country and the planet without out batting a eye or even a twitch.

        Some even relish in it with psychopathic levity.

        They have no conscious, no heart, sold their humanity, so their is nothing to reach them with by way of argument, facts or embarrassing them, they are no longer under the definition of what a Human Being is.


        The 13th Warrior
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  • Spooky...reminds me of that Martin Niemöller poem all over again...seems history repeats itself -
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  • Profile picture of the author ThomM
    Originally Posted by The 13th Warrior View Post

    Has anyone on this forum ACTUALLY lived under military rule or martial law?

    How about some REAL life, actual tips you used?

    How do you get thru the day, how do you party?

    Please, ONLY people who actually lived under these type conditions in other places.

    We need some tips here in the U.S., seriously.

    If you have not lived under these conditions or similar in another country, please keep your political comments to yourself, maybe we can get some useful tips to put away on the back burner before this thread gets deleted, if it even makes it out.

    Most here are not even prepared for a weather disaster in their own state,even if it happened multiple times, much less this situation.

    Real stories/tips, no propaganda for any side, thanks.


    The 13th Warrior
    This may turn around and bite them in the butt.
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  • Profile picture of the author Thomas
    Originally Posted by The 13th Warrior View Post

    Has anyone on this forum ACTUALLY lived under military rule or martial law?

    How about some REAL life, actual tips you used?
    Thankfully, I've never personally lived under martial law, but parts of Ireland started to head in that direction during the height of the Troubles in Northern Ireland, and I would have been one of Big Brother's minions had it actually done so.

    I can tell you this:
    1. Big Brother doesn't care about you or what you do unless/until you challenge his authority.
    2. His resources are NOT unlimited, and, thus, are focused in particular areas, such as against KNOWN subversives.
    3. For that reason, it's actually surprisingly hard to come to his attention.
    4. However, if you do, then, despite his limitations, he will come down on you like a tonne of bricks anyway.
    5. In time of martial law (REAL martial law), he'll simply kill you and, thus, won't need to expend any more resources in relation to you.
    With that in mind, he's some advice for SURVIVING (NOT revolting against) martial law (and, again, I mean REAL martial law, when civilian authority is GONE... not a situation where the police whack a few protestors on the head).

    1. If you have guns, bury them somewhere immediately. And not in, or around, your house either; somewhere else. If you have nowhere else to bury them, throw them (and all ammunition) into a river or lake, or simply dump them somewhere obscure and out of the way. You might THINK you'll need them, but you won't. Under REAL martial law, they WILL get you killed. No matter how handy you think you are with a gun, you DON'T have the ability to fend off highly-trained combat troops and if you try, they'll kill you (REALLY fast). However, they'll probably kill you anyway if they find that unloaded pistol you have stashed at the back of your sock drawer. So no guns (at all). Consider that the golden rule of SURVIVING martial law. (Again, this is about survival; if widespread civilian resistance does occur down the line (you won't be the one to "organise" it), you'll find guns will become readily available anyway, as they ALWAYS do.)

    2. If you're worried about defending your home from others (not troops, but criminals looking to steal your food, rape you, etc.), firstly consider the fact that such people generally don't operate alone and, even if you keep your gun, there's a >90% chance you don't have the ability to use it against multiple attackers in a confined space. A viable alternative might be pepper spray - not the "ordinary" stuff but, if you can get it, there is much stronger stuff available (though it might not be legal where you're from). I'm talking about stuff that will bring down a bloody elephant, never mind a man. If you can get you hands on it, you'll disable half a dozen people at the same time (though possibly yourself too, if you're not careful).

    3. Another alternative is to make sure your kitchen knifes are kept so sharp that you could used them to shave. Kitchen knifes don't look out of place in any home and are relatively easy to kill someone with. However, DON'T keep a combat knife at home; send it away with your guns.

    4. Remember that the majority of troops you encounter will be young males (typically in the 18-24 age range), correspondingly aggressive (for that age range), and, despite being trained killers, will also most likely be quite nervous (which leads to itchy trigger fingers). Therefore, DON'T be confrontational towards them in any way whatsoever, DON'T look them in the eyes, DON'T carry weapons of any kind, DON'T make sudden movements, and DO be polite to them (even if they aren't) and DO follow any instructions they give you. If they are being arseholes, you might feel like doing "something", but don't; just suck it up.

    5. Stay at home as much as possible. Stay at home ALL THE TIME, if you can. (Stock up on large, thick books - they'll help you pass the time, and they don't require electricity which, if the imposition of martial law is the result of some disaster, may not be available.)

    6. There's plently of stuff available "out there" about food, but hardly anyone mentions the fact that, not only should you never tell anyone else you have food, but you should also NEVER (EVER) tell your own children or teenagers (especially teenagers) how much you have (or, if you can help it, even the fact that you have anything). They won't mean to, but they WILL give you away in a flash. And don't EVER feed their friends either, even if they're dying from starvation. And only eat enough to sustain you too; if the situation persists, and people around you are getting thinnner and weaker, while you appear well-fed, you will attract some very unwanted attention.

    7. Bury your empty cans; stock up on paper plates, and bury them too afterwards.

    8. If possible, DON'T keep all your food in one place; if someone finds it, it's ALL gone. Instead, hide smaller amounts in multiple locations.

    9. Always mind your own business. If any situation has deteriorated to the point that martial law is imposed, then the time to be a hero has (long) passed, and your only focus should be making sure you and your family survive (not thrive, which nobody will under such a situation, but survive, as in "don't die").

    All the above notwithstanding, the fact remains that the overwhelming majority of people reading this thread will actually never experience anything even close to martial law.

    Tommy.
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    • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
      Originally Posted by Thomas View Post

      Thankfully, I've never personally lived under martial law, but parts of Ireland started to head in that direction during the height of the Troubles in Northern Ireland, and I would have been one of Big Brother's minions had it actually done so.

      I can tell you this:
      1. Big Brother doesn't care about you or what you do unless/until you challenge his authority.
      2. His resources are NOT unlimited, and, thus, are focused in particular areas, such as against KNOWN subversives.
      3. For that reason, it's actually surprisingly hard to come to his attention.
      4. However, if you do, then, despite his limitations, he will come down on you like a tonne of bricks anyway.
      5. In time of martial law (REAL martial law), he'll simply kill you and, thus, won't need to expend any more resources in relation to you.
      With that in mind, he's some advice for SURVIVING (NOT revolting against) martial law (and, again, I mean REAL martial law, when civilian authority is GONE... not a situation where the police whack a few protestors on the head).

      1. If you have guns, bury them somewhere immediately. And not in, or around, your house either; somewhere else. If you have nowhere else to bury them, throw them (and all ammunition) into a river or lake, or simply dump them somewhere obscure and out of the way. You might THINK you'll need them, but you won't. Under REAL martial law, they WILL get you killed. No matter how handy you think you are with a gun, you DON'T have the ability to fend off highly-trained combat troops and if you try, they'll kill you (REALLY fast). However, they'll probably kill you anyway if they find that unloaded pistol you have stashed at the back of your sock drawer. So no guns (at all). Consider that the golden rule of SURVIVING martial law. (Again, this is about survival; if widespread civilian resistance does occur down the line (you won't be the one to "organise" it), you'll find guns will become readily available anyway, as they ALWAYS do.)

      2. If you're worried about defending your home from others (not troops, but criminals looking to steal your food, rape you, etc.), firstly consider the fact that such people generally don't operate alone and, even if you keep your gun, there's a >90% chance you don't have the ability to use it against multiple attackers in a confined space. A viable alternative might be pepper spray - not the "ordinary" stuff but, if you can get it, there is much stronger stuff available (though it might not be legal where you're from). I'm talking about stuff that will bring down a bloody elephant, never mind a man. If you can get you hands on it, you'll disable half a dozen people at the same time (though possibly yourself too, if you're not careful).

      3. Another alternative is to make sure your kitchen knifes are kept so sharp that you could used them to shave. Kitchen knifes don't look out of place in any home and are relatively easy to kill someone with. However, DON'T keep a combat knife at home; send it away with your guns.

      4. Remember that the majority of troops you encounter will be young males (typically in the 18-24 age range), correspondingly aggressive (for that age range), and, despite being trained killers, will also most likely be quite nervous (which leads to itchy trigger fingers). Therefore, DON'T be confrontational towards them in any way whatsoever, DON'T look them in the eyes, DON'T carry weapons of any kind, DON'T make sudden movements, and DO be polite to them (even if they aren't) and DO follow any instructions they give you. If they are being arseholes, you might feel like doing "something", but don't; just suck it up.

      5. Stay at home as much as possible. Stay at home ALL THE TIME, if you can. (Stock up on large, thick books - they'll help you pass the time, and they don't require electricity which, if the imposition of martial law is the result of some disaster, may not be available.)

      6. There's plently of stuff available "out there" about food, but hardly anyone mentions the fact that, not only should you never tell anyone else you have food, but you should also NEVER (EVER) tell your own children or teenagers (especially teenagers) how much you have (or, if you can help it, even the fact that you have anything). They won't mean to, but they WILL give you away in a flash. And don't EVER feed their friends either, even if they're dying from starvation. And only eat enough to sustain you too; if the situation persists, and people around you are getting thinnner and weaker, while you appear well-fed, you will attract some very unwanted attention.

      7. Bury your empty cans; stock up on paper plates, and bury them too afterwards.

      8. If possible, DON'T keep all your food in one place; if someone finds it, it's ALL gone. Instead, hide smaller amounts in multiple locations.

      9. Always mind your own business. If any situation has deteriorated to the point that martial law is imposed, then the time to be a hero has (long) passed, and your only focus should be making sure you and your family survive (not thrive, which nobody will under such a situation, but survive, as in "don't die").

      All the above notwithstanding, the fact remains that the overwhelming majority of people reading this thread will actually never experience anything even close to martial law.

      Tommy.


      Niiiiiiiice tips, man, that sounds like experience.

      The sharp kitchen knives is pretty smart, weapons out in the open that appear normal, but we need more tricks to have improvised weapons that look like ordinary furniture that is ready, something not covered in military improvised weapons and munitions manuals.

      Not having ALL your resources in one place is smart military strategy anyway.

      I think thats good advice to have guns at another location away from your property, but not having them available at all, well, that opinion needs more study vs real life historical events.

      You are definitely right about the kids but that goes for some DOPEY adults also, who will get everyone killed trying to play Mother Teresa, simply not recognizing the situation for what it is....., reality will simply not register with everyone, even if they are drowning in it.

      Good stuff, dude, this is real stuff.

      You have to be a Warrior, literally, and a survivor to know this no b.s. stuff.


      The 13th Warrior
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    What a wonderful way to live. I would have to hope if push came to shove in that instance, that our military would be more likely to go after the perps instead of the citizens. We may end up with civil war - we do have a lot of citizens with guns.......but more importantly, we have a LOT of military vets with guns. Don't forget how many of our men in this country have been trained in the military, and how many of those have seen war firsthand. There are a lot of brass on the side of the civilians and are horrified over the way our congress is taking over. This event could be just full of real surprises from all angles yet.
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    • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post


      What a wonderful way to live. I would have to hope if push came to shove in that instance, that our military would be more likely to go after the perps instead of the citizens.

      Wishful thinking, for the most part.

      I don't know when or how often, but military personnel were given a survey and one of the questions is "ARE YOU WILLING TO SHOOT, KILL AMERICAN CITIZENS?"

      77% said no, but 23% said yes. They are going to take that 23% and give them "special" jobs, like first dibs in police jobs as to quietly militarize the cops, TSA, and other enforcement teams.

      If people are watching Fox, CNN, ABC news and other useless, mindless propaganda, you won't get this as a story from there, sorry.



      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post


      There are a lot of brass on the side of the civilians and are horrified over the way our congress is taking over.

      Most "brass" and Generals are promised $Million$ dollar a year jobs in the private sector in the weapons manufacturing jobs for their retirement, so a lot of them are willing to play ball, like politicians, with the Totalitarian Emperors.


      I am not sure what is a worser crime, NOT believing that it can or will happen here in the United States of America or NOT being prepared for it?


      The 13th Warrior
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
    I'd rather die than live as a coward, constantly in fear of the same government that is supposed to protect you.

    My guns arent going anywhere.

    I dont care if this bill isn't vetoed or not. Im not giving them up. I have the right to keep and bear arms, no matter what their new bill says.

    For example, take the law passed in 1986 that makes it illegal to possess a full-auto firearm. That just means you cant buy/sell/own a full-auto that was manufactured AFTER the bill was passed.

    Its still perfectly legal to own/buy/sell a full-auto that was made before 1986.

    So as far as I'm concerned, this new bill applies to Americans born in Dec 2011 and later hahahaha
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
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  • It's like when you used to have to fill out that gov't job form: (in triplicate)
    (do they still do this?)

    "Are you or have you ever been a member of the Communist party, -OR - Are you or have you ever been a member of any organization that plots to undermine or overthrow the constitution of the united states by force or illegal means" - yes - or - no?

    If you are...would you answer YES? :rolleyes:
    (kind of undermines the whole subversive operation if ya do...)

    It's a CYA clause - (see you guys? - They LIED on the form!!! - That PROVES they're subversive!!!)

    Damned if you do...Damned if you don't -

    btw:I'd seen that stupid form so many times...I had it memorized...:rolleyes:
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Well, I have had a little taste of aspects. Whether from police, the US government, employers, etc... It is astounding that the second paragraph of the declaration of independence indicates a thought that is to be PARAMOUNT! It even says "INALIENABLE"! In other words "PARAMOUNT AND NOT TO BE VIOLATED OR COUNTERMANDED!!!!!!!"!!!!!! And all take an oath to defend its child which basically spells that out. Yet so many so freely countermand them. I hope they SUCCEED in countermanding EVERY one for only THEMSELVES and their ilk! That would be true justice!

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author JuicerFan
    The tips from Thomas sound good. people underestimate the power of mobs, etc...
    Signature
    Cheddar, YO
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  • Profile picture of the author Roaddog
    Thomas does indeed bring up good points.

    If you want to see a good example of 'hidden' weapons in plain site.

    Okinawa is a good example, the nunchucks, sythes, tonfa (which all big city cops now carry instead of the old nightstick) etc...were all 'farming tools' when Okinawan's weren't allowed to have weapons.

    Trained properly, things like magazines, umbrellas, etc...can be deadly weapons.

    I was in the Philippines in 1980. Marcos still had martial law in effect for another year after that.
    If I remember right American armed forces had to obey certain aspects of it too.
    Curfews and such. The militias and cops and Army (theirs), used to walk around at least six deep.
    Fully armed with ArmaLites (sp?)
    Plus the OPM (Office of the Provost Marshal) which was some kind of liaison between the forces...can't really remember their exact duties.
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    • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
      Originally Posted by Roaddog View Post


      Thomas does indeed bring up good points.

      If you want to see a good example of 'hidden' weapons in plain site.

      Okinawa is a good example, the nunchucks, sythes, tonfa (which all big city cops now carry instead of the old nightstick) etc...were all 'farming tools' when Okinawan's weren't allowed to have weapons.

      Trained properly, things like magazines, umbrellas, etc...can be deadly weapons.

      Oh, snap, good point.

      I forgot all about the harmless looking "farm" equipment used as weapons.

      I can't remember the movie where common, ordinary "playing cards" where razor sharp edges.

      But alas, those were Blades vs Blades days or countering Blades.

      What "ordinary" household items do you improvise to "counter" a rifle that shoots bullets around a corner at right angles?

      You will have to get a ex-intelligence field officer or "Bourne Indentity" type ex-covert field operative, high level Delta or Seal to know all the weakness and logistics of the latest weapons and telemetry instruments, best methods of countering them, using their weakness.


      The 13th Warrior
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  • Profile picture of the author Roaddog
    What "ordinary" household items do you improvise to "counter" a rifle that shoots bullets around a corner at right angles?
    None...You don't.

    The greatest weapon you have is right between your ears..

    History is full of lessons about much 'weaker' countries using very improvised and well thought out ways to keep a larger occupying force at bay.
    Just ask the Vietnamese.

    A lot of people will be surprised at how well your brain is going to work when you have to.

    It ain't about being an action figure Rambo, all the time, by any stretch.
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    • Profile picture of the author Thomas
      Originally Posted by Roaddog View Post

      ...a good example of 'hidden' weapons in plain site.
      Here's one: One of the most commonly-used "weapons" for self-defence in Ireland is one of these...



      It's a hurley, used in the Irish sport of hurling. The game predates recorded history in Ireland and, as such, you'll find at least one (if not several of them) in virtually every home in the country. They are about 3-4 feet long, made from ash, and are usually reinforced with the steel band you see in the picture; despite being a common, everyday feature of Irish life, they will break bones when swung hard even by a child, and can inflict fatal injuries when wielded by an adult. Many an Irish burgler has encountered an irate property owner wielding a hurley in full swing; even intruders carrying guns have had the bejesus beaten out of them with one

      During early British rule in Ireland, a concerted effort was made to ban the game of hurling altogether on the basis that it was viewed as something akin to combat training disguised as a game
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      • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
        Originally Posted by Thomas View Post


        Here's one: One of the most commonly-used "weapons" for self-defence in Ireland is one of these...



        It's a hurley, used in the Irish sport of hurling. The game predates recorded history in Ireland and, as such, you'll find at least one (if not several of them) in virtually every home in the country. They are about 3-4 feet long, made from ash, and are usually reinforced with the steel band you see in the picture; despite being a common, everyday feature of Irish life, they will break bones when swung hard even by a child, and can inflict fatal injuries when wielded by an adult. Many an Irish burgler has encountered an irate property owner wielding a hurley in full swing; even intruders carrying guns have had the bejesus beaten out of them with one

        During early British rule in Ireland, a concerted effort was made to ban the game of hurling altogether on the basis that it was viewed as something akin to combat training disguised as a game

        Regular sports equipment as weapons, excellent.

        This speaks volume of experience.

        Nice call.


        The 13th Warrior
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        • Originally Posted by The 13th Warrior View Post

          Regular sports equipment as weapons, excellent.

          This speaks volume of experience.

          Nice call.


          The 13th Warrior

          Though...Not Very Sporting Of You, Old Chap!
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Everything is a weapon -- mirrors set beside doors are diversions that buy a couple of seconds of time..........boiling water on a stove is a weapon - cayenne pepper, Jalapeno juice, Chinese mustard-- ammonia and a squirt gun, pencils and pens.........ammonia and bleach (as long is it's released somewhere that YOU aren't breathing.....Got a chance to infiltrate a unit of men? - Concentrated sludge from a reverse osmosis filter....Ecoli. They have to eat, too, after all.
    Signature

    Sal
    When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Everything is a weapon -- mirrors set beside doors are diversions that buy a couple of seconds of time..........boiling water on a stove is a weapon - cayenne pepper, Jalapeno juice, Chinese mustard-- ammonia and a squirt gun, pencils and pens.........ammonia and bleach (as long is it's released somewhere that YOU aren't breathing.....Got a chance to infiltrate a unit of men? - Concentrated sludge from a reverse osmosis filter....Ecoli. They have to eat, too, after all.
      GOOD POINT! I am heading home NOW! Maybe I will look for that old chemical warefare book I got that was put out by the US navy! And you know, I DID see some R/O filters at sears. Some claim to be good. And the BEAUTY of that is that, if needed, I would only be giving them a concentrated form of what they have been giving ME. POETIC JUSTICE!

      The only sprayers I have are the 1 gallon sprayers for like sealers. Who makes some good waterproof medium quantity/range squirt guns?

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    I heard a statement today. I wish I could recall how it was put. But the English language has changed a LOT!

    Today, "taking an oath" is understood to mean you said some stupid little statement, and that is IT!

    It is SUPPOSED to mean that you will effectively protect and honor something TO THE DEATH! The oath is not actually the AFFIRMATION that you will do it, or what is said, but the WHOLE PACKAGE!(The whole act!)

    Do you REALLY think ANYONE cares about the statement? NOPE! The statement was an AFFIRMATION! If you break it in Court, you could be held for contempt of court or PERJURY! If you break it in congress, you could be held for contempt of congress, or perjury. If you break it in the military, you can be dishonorably discharged, lose ALL rights, and be THROWN IN JAIL! If you break it in office, you are supposed to be impeached, etc.... It is NOT supposed to be just to get your picture taken, etc... HELL, even I am signing contracts and could lose EVERYTHING if I violate them. Some would even be CRIMINAL FELONIES! Never ONCE was there an event to invite people to! HELL, about a month ago I did a stint for a MILITARY CONTRACTOR! A coworker was SHOCKED when I said I didn't have to give them my birth certificate. HE DID! But I was only there for a weekend.(SHORT PROJECT). They only allow US native born citizens to work there.

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post


      I heard a statement today. I wish I could recall how it was put. But the English language has changed a LOT!

      Today, "taking an oath" is understood to mean you said some stupid little statement, and that is IT!

      It is SUPPOSED to mean that you will effectively protect and honor something TO THE DEATH! The oath is not actually the AFFIRMATION that you will do it, or what is said, but the WHOLE PACKAGE!(The whole act!)

      Do you REALLY think ANYONE cares about the statement? NOPE! The statement was an AFFIRMATION! If you break it in Court, you could be held for contempt of court or PERJURY! If you break it in congress, you could be held for contempt of congress, or perjury. If you break it in the military, you can be dishonorably discharged, lose ALL rights, and be THROWN IN JAIL! If you break it in office, you are supposed to be impeached, etc.... It is NOT supposed to be just to get your picture taken, etc... HELL, even I am signing contracts and could lose EVERYTHING if I violate them. Some would even be CRIMINAL FELONIES!
      Steve

      Yep.

      But since laws are mostly enforced on the "small fry" citizen, laws are meaningless.

      New Constitution additions, Bill of Rights additions, new laws, new statutes, new regulations, all, completely MEANINGLESS because they are almost exclusively enforced on either joe blow citizen , someone who won't play ball, to get more money from citizens or when they decide they need a fall guy and occasionally cannabalize one of their own.

      The system is bought and paid for.

      I would just, at least, like to see the receipt, the bill of sale.


      The 13th Warrior
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      • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
        Who's "laughing" at "The Terminator" movies now, science fiction, huh?

        Man-less drone planes killing humans (those who won't play ball).

        So who is "The Terminators" with the plasma rifles?

        Politicians, Bankers, The Federal Reserve, the "23%" Military Personnel, you know, the BlackWater type mercenaries for pay, and hell, maybe even foreign military under some new name.

        So "1984" was fiction?

        Hmmmmn...,


        The 13th Warrior
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by The 13th Warrior View Post

          Who's "laughing" at "The Terminator" movies now, science fiction, huh?

          Man-less drone planes killing humans (those who won't play ball).

          So who is "The Terminators" with the plasma rifles?

          Politicians, Bankers, The Federal Reserve, the "23%" Military Personnel, you know, the BlackWater type mercenaries for pay, and hell, maybe even foreign military under some new name.

          So "1984" was fiction?

          Hmmmmn...,


          The 13th Warrior
          Modern times spoke of this BEFORE 1984! Metropolis before THAT! I believe time machine before that. BTW in terminator, they kept referring to a turnng point. The point where sky net turned the tables. They FINALLY(BEFORE DRONES n the US military were revealed) showed that point in a TV version. HOW did skynet do it? *****MILITARY UNMANNED DRONES*****! It wasn't very prophetic. Take 3000BC- stories and mix with 1970s technology, and it is OBVIOUS!

          Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        I'd rather die than live as a coward, constantly in fear of the same government that is supposed to protect you.
        That's what most of us would think. But no one knows what THEY would do until they are actually faced with an immediate life/death situation.

        We would all like to believe we would be strong and would not tolerate having rights trampled - but history tells us otherwise. When the only choice open is to be a dead hero or a live chicken -clucking begins to sound like a good idea The best resistance movements were full of folks who outwardly followed the leader - and stayed alive to fight behind the scenes.

        If the laws don't apply to citizens - what's the point of having them? I think we can easily go too far in expecting or predicting massive consequences based on what "could" or "might" happen in a certain scenario....and start thinking "this WILL happen" whether it makes sense or not.

        Want a receipt? Look at the national debt. We're bought - but not paid for.
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        • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
          I know some of you have lived under brutal or semi-brutal governments.

          How about some more tips?

          Thanks


          The 13th Warrior
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          • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
            By the way, losing your right to a trial by your peers has already happened.

            Jesse Ventura was denied a trial on a Constitutional issue by the Federal Court and only granted for his case to be decided by a Court of Appeals if he chooses..., 3 "bought and paid for judges" to decide his case was given his only option for redress

            Pathetic.


            The 13th Warrior
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              Do I care if Jesse Ventura gets a full jury trial to complain about patdowns at airports?

              Let me think....hmmm....no.

              If this is the standard being used to promote the "we are oppressed" theory - I don't think we're there yet.
              Signature
              Every child needs a pet because every family needs an optimist

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          • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
            Originally Posted by The 13th Warrior View Post

            I know some of you have lived under brutal or semi-brutal governments.

            How about some more tips?

            Thanks


            The 13th Warrior
            Life can appear to be be completely normal, even prosperous, and have many appearances of freedom under brutal military regimes that apply martial law...until you're targeted for whatever reason.
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            Project HERE.

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        • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          That's what most of us would think. But no one knows what THEY would do until they are actually faced with an immediate life/death situation.

          We would all like to believe we would be strong and would not tolerate having rights trampled - but history tells us otherwise. When the only choice open is to be a dead hero or a live chicken -clucking begins to sound like a good idea The best resistance movements were full of folks who outwardly followed the leader - and stayed alive to fight behind the scenes.

          If the laws don't apply to citizens - what's the point of having them? I think we can easily go too far in expecting or predicting massive consequences based on what "could" or "might" happen in a certain scenario....and start thinking "this WILL happen" whether it makes sense or not.

          Want a receipt? Look at the national debt. We're bought - but not paid for.
          That might be how most people look at things, but the way I see it everybody has to go sometime. Might as well be on my own terms.

          If you stand for nothing, you fall for anything - Not sure who said that quote but its definitely true.
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  • Are you sure this wasn't a typo all this time?

    Maybe we were supposed to be discussing "Survival tips for living and prospering under Marital - instead of Martial Law...which might be tricky as well -
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    • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
      Originally Posted by MoneyMagnetMagnate View Post

      Are you sure this wasn't a typo all this time?

      Maybe we were supposed to be discussing "Survival tips for living and prospering under Marital - instead of Martial Law...which might be tricky as well -
      That is territory where I dare not tread on this forum (looking over my shoulder as I write this).
      Signature

      Project HERE.

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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Steve - you can get "super soakers" at any toy store - shoots a stream up to 30 feet.

    I know some of you have lived under brutal or semi-brutal governments.

    How about some more tips?
    How many of those living under such governments do you actually think are willing to risk their own ass to respond to a question like that online? Survival for them right now is staying invisible. Posting stuff you ask for here isn't doing that. LOL.

    Do I care if Jesse Ventura gets a full jury trial to complain about patdowns at airports?

    Let me think....hmmm....no.
    You might want to START caring about things like that. When they are bold enough to deny someone with that much public influence due process according to our constitution and bill of rights - how many people in this berg do you think can get their guaranteed due process? Not caring about the infringement on one person's rights is the same as not caring about any infringements on everyone's rights. It's just that negligence to think objectively rather than subjectively which has allowed us to come to the point we need to be discussing this in the first place.
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    Sal
    When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
    Beyond the Path

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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Steve - you can get "super soakers" at any toy store - shoots a stream up to 30 feet
      I KNOW . I specified MEDIUM range! The super soakers are too big/obvious, indistinct, and require a lot.

      You might want to START caring about things like that. When they are bold enough to deny someone with that much public influence due process according to our constitution and bill of rights - how many people in this berg do you think can get their guaranteed due process? Not caring about the infringement on one person's rights is the same as not caring about any infringements on everyone's rights. It's just that negligence to think objectively rather than subjectively which has allowed us to come to the point we need to be discussing this in the first place.
      You're certainly right there! I just flew home, as I aluded to earlier today. I was given TWO choices!

      1. IRRADIATE MYSELF! In my case, I have hit my limit for irradiation ANYWAY, since I had SO many CT scans for my artificial valve. HEY, shouldn't tye ADA permit me to SKIP that garbage!?!?!?!?

      2. Submit to a pat down.

      So I had my fourth amendment rights VIOLATED! GIVE ME A BRAKE! I am a natural born US citizen having NO citizenship elsewhere, NEVER arrested, NEVER bankrupt, a decent credit rating, CLEAN plice record, passed security clearances, and was a reference for a JPL worker that is likewise clean. I am a frequent flyer, can go through the preferred lane(in new jersey at least), and have NEVER had so much as an argument with a TSA agent or airline worker. I also belong to NO groups that may be considered bad.

      Yet they treat me like they SHOULD be treating, and should ALWAYS have treated, muslim extremists, foreign antagonstic groups and governments.

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    BTW -- for defense against pepper spray, if you are going into areas where pepper spray might be used (protests), coat your skin with a solution of liquid antacid and water. Keep a small bottle of it with you to douse your eyes. It deactivates the spray.

    They have a weapon that replicates lightning now, too. THEY have THOR suits that keep them from getting electrocuted. Thor shield is not sold to anyone but the military. So be careful of electricity be thrown at you in a riot situation. If you ever feel your hair starting to raise when you are in or near an area of protest, it might be too late to get out of the way - duck and cover.
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    Sal
    When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
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    • Profile picture of the author calhoun
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      BTW -- for defense against pepper spray, if you are going into areas where pepper spray might be used (protests), coat your skin with a solution of liquid antacid and water. Keep a small bottle of it with you to douse your eyes. It deactivates the spray.

      They have a weapon that replicates lightning now, too. THEY have THOR suits that keep them from getting electrocuted. Thor shield is not sold to anyone but the military. So be careful of electricity be thrown at you in a riot situation. If you ever feel your hair starting to raise when you are in or near an area of protest, it might be too late to get out of the way - duck and cover.
      I wanted to see the THOR suit but when I googled it all I got was pictures from the 'Thor film'

      Do you have a link to the actual THOR suit?

      This reminds me of that self-defense jacket that turns into a taser. I saw it online a couple of years ago. It's supposed to shock anyone grabbing you when its turned on.

      Could be useful in some of the situations described in this thread.

      Another thing is that pouring milk into your eyes after you get peppered sprayed is supposed to work. Water only makes it worse.

      Standing in front of an air conditioned also helps- if you can.
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  • Originally Posted by The 13th Warrior
    Who's "laughing" at "The Terminator" movies now, science fiction, huh?

    Man-less drone planes killing humans (those who won't play ball).

    So who is "The Terminators" with the plasma rifles?

    Politicians, Bankers, The Federal Reserve, the "23%" Military Personnel, you know, the BlackWater type mercenaries for pay, and hell, maybe even foreign military under some new name.
    So "1984" was fiction?
    Hmmmmn...,
    The 13th Warrior
    In the science "Terminator" sort of vein - (not to sound too paranoid :rolleyes

    I blink these days when I read more and more about our computers, tv's, all communications, becoming "self-aware" in the next generation of artificial intelligence...
    The web (and those who control it) already know more about you than you ever thought possible just a few years ago...

    Moore's law used the relative term of 18 months - that general time frame appears to be getting shorter and shorter...faster and faster...

    When you allow your "assistant" to learn all your personal buying habits, routines, etc. -
    As it becomes more self-aware...will you become less aware?
    How much freedom will you give away...to be "free"?

    Who is the Shepard and who are the sheep? Who will be in control?

    Even those here who understand the implications and impact stand in awe of the possibilities...
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Good point. I don't believe our greatest dangers are from someone taking our guns or imposing martial law on citizens throughout the country.

      I think the most dangerous threats are cyber - and financial.

      We talk about shutting down electricity - what if elecdtricity was still on but every computer hard drive was fried? What if the world economy becomes so bad no one is interested in continuing to buy our debt?

      When businesses first began using computers most of those companies kept all tansactions and numbers backed up on paper files. Gradually, this was stopped as computers became more sophisticated and trusted. I was in a Walmart a couple years ago when the power failed and the computers went offline. The store couldn't sell anything for hours - there was no backup in place to allow transactions without the computer system.

      Our fears are usually based on what we know to expect. Successful attacks are usually something we never really thought of - or something we believed "couldn't be done".

      Sal - the weapon you refer to is non-lethal but those close to it must be shielded. It fires from half a mile (or more - I forgot how far) away and spreads out to the point where it can neutralize attacking troops without killing or maiming them. Biggest problem I see with it is it's designed for the kind of wars we used to have - not the guerrilla warfare we see today.

      kay
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        Good point. I don't believe our greatest dangers are from someone taking our guns or imposing martial law on citizens throughout the country.

        I think the most dangerous threats are cyber - and financial.

        We talk about shutting down electricity - what if elecdtricity was still on but every computer hard drive was fried? What if the world economy becomes so bad no one is interested in continuing to buy our debt?

        When businesses first began using computers most of those companies kept all tansactions and numbers backed up on paper files. Gradually, this was stopped as computers became more sophisticated and trusted. I was in a Walmart a couple years ago when the power failed and the computers went offline. The store couldn't sell anything for hours - there was no backup in place to allow transactions without the computer system.
        I alluded to that earlier. But you are only looking ONE level deep! SUPPOSE, just SUPPOSE, that they COULD do the accounting, tracking, and "sell" in walmart. Sales would STILL practically STOP! WHY? Because they almost certainly DON'T have, and may not even know about, old manual drafts! Even FEWER know of the lists of bad cards.

        Our fears are usually based on what we know to expect. Successful attacks are usually something we never really thought of - or something we believed "couldn't be done".
        MANY STILL don't believe it can be done. More IS done than they think IS possible.

        Sal - the weapon you refer to is non-lethal but those close to it must be shielded. It fires from half a mile (or more - I forgot how far) away and spreads out to the point where it can neutralize attacking troops without killing or maiming them. Biggest problem I see with it is it's designed for the kind of wars we used to have - not the guerrilla warfare we see today.

        kay
        The type of weapon you describe isn't possible. Power past a certain level is UPREDICTABLE! It stops being predictable when it can pass maybe 1mm, and grows as that distance increases. Want proof? Find someone, ANYONE, in the past say 30,000 years of history that could EVER reliably predict a lightning strike.

        Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
    I watch plenty of Man vs Wild/Man Woman Wild/Dual Survival.. all of those shows. LOL

    I like to think I would be pretty damn good at survival. Maybe we'll find out one day, maybe we wont? hahaha
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  • The type of weapon you describe isn't possible. Power past a certain level is UPREDICTABLE! It stops being predictable when it can pass maybe 1mm, and grows as that distance increases. Want proof? Find someone, ANYONE, in the past say 30,000 years of history that could EVER reliably predict a lightning strike.

    Steve
    Doc Brown and Marty McFly...:p
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    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

      I think the most dangerous threats are cyber - and financial.
      I would say the environment and mother nature are the biggest threats to society as we know it..

      Originally Posted by Whos That Guru View Post

      I watch plenty of Man vs Wild/Man Woman Wild/Dual Survival.. all of those shows. LOL

      I like to think I would be pretty damn good at survival. Maybe we'll find out one day, maybe we wont? hahaha
      Bon appetit! Just make sure you have some of your own urine to wash it down with.

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  • Profile picture of the author chrislangley
    It is always a good idea to have a large supply of food when curfew allows it
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Originally Posted by Michael Milken View Post

    I love how fear mongers always argue what-ifs and what-could-happens as fact. Don't get me wrong, everyone should at some point prepare themselves in the case of a natural disaster or some sort. But all this crap about the government of America trying to control the people, take away our rights, etc., is all conspiracy garbage. If you want to convince someone like me, you're gonna have to show me some cold hard proof that the government is planning to do these things. And I don't mean showing some law, and then explaining what they *could* do. Honestly, I don't see things any different now than I did pre-9/11. Sure, there are new laws. But things haven't affected me any differently. If people think high surveillance is something that happened post-9/11, then they're dumber than I thought. The government has always had a high level of surveillance in America. Gullible Americans just didn't start paying attention until after 9/11.

    Idiots like Jesse Ventura are also out to spread the fear. You mean to tell me that big bad government allowed Jesse Ventura to have his own TV Show to spill all of their *sinister secrets?* If you believe that, then I have a bridge in Brooklyn I want to sell you. Same with Alex Jones, David Icke, etc. Those guys spread that crap to make money off of the gullible people. Notice that none of the things they predicted has ever come true. And yet, people still follow the latest conspiracy theories as if they're factual.
    WOW! Even with all the FACTS to say you are wrong, you STILL think you are right. YIKES!

    The government HAS controlled people and taken away rights. That's fact, and should be obvious, so why say more.

    Surveillance used to be TABOO. The US actually had to fight to get things like cameras to catch speeders put in. A LOT of other footage was slowly acquired and spotty because it was from things like store cameras and ATM cameras. TODAY? WHO KNOWS? Maybe every new pole has a camera. And they are replacing a LOT of poles!

    It was a while before they had METAL DETECTORS in airports. Even then, family could go through and meet or sendoff the passenger. Today, they may effectively XRAY you, and some claim they DO! Oh well, about 80% DO use Xrays!

    They HAVE to let people like Jesse talk! If they DON'T, then even people that dislike Jesse and say he is a kook will be fighting the government. Don't believe me? Look at YOUR post again! You said we can't believe him BECAUSE he can talk!

    Time and time again, "conspiracy theorists" are proven RIGHT. And people, like you, STILL say they are ALL kooks, until the facts are ADMITTED by the government. HECK, MANY said Area 51 was FAKE! Montel claimed HE had TOP security clearance, and could find out. He wasn't even allowed to SEE the base. And Conspiracies in the government HAPPEN ALL THE TIME! Heck, many aren't even published for people like you to ridicule.

    Some YOU might not even call conspiracies, even though a group of people agreed to the nefarious purpose, and thus made it one. I guess if it is written on a public paper, and not sci-fi, you don't ridicule it, and thus don't count it against you. MOST aren't scifi. When area 51 started, it probably wasn't anything like scifi. Even NOW, officially, it is JUST on the borders. Of course, everything is SO secret, that you KNOW they go farther than they say.

    There was, YES, a CONSPIRACY, to EVEN withhold information about the chemicals they are throwing away! There is a special disease a lot of people got, and they SUED to fid out what the chemicals are so that they could MAYBE be treated. The judge stated that NSA interests trump THEIRS.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
    hey what do ya know! Jesse Ventura's Conspiracy Theory is on TruTV right now! Haven't seen this show since they aired the episode about the FEMA death camps.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Steve - I think you missed the point.

      Ventura does talk - endlessly, sometimes. His complaint now is that he can't talk in front of a judge and jury (and the media that would result).

      How many times have we seen the prediction of dire events here? And that's a small sample of the conspiracies on blogs that repeat the same unquestioned pap from blog to another. Does anyone stop and question the "facts" of these outlandish articles? I doubt it.

      How many times have we been warned that a certain month/day/year would be "the end" or "a crisis" or "an uprising" or "a huge march for one thing or another"? Have you ever seen it occur?

      Usually the date passes with a whimper and the next theory of an uprising or crackdown or whatever becomes the topic of the conversation.

      I do think we've lost some rights since 9/11 - but we've given them up. The right to privacy is all but gone but we were willing to trade it for the perception of safety and for internet access. How can we blame anyone but ourselves?

      I was in an airport last month, taking off my shoes (my pet peeve) and going through a scanner and a quick patdown and what I overheard was the the average person has the attitude of "if it makes us safe, I'm all for it". The indoctrination is fairly complete and Ventura shouting about it won't change that.

      This was my first "patdown" as I've avoided flying since that nonsense started. I still think it's useless and reactive - just like taking off my shoes. However, the experience wasn't a big deal - very light touch and not at all intrusive.

      There is an expense to a jury trial and a judge's time - and other trial schedules would be delayed by a useless and news-targeted event. It's like OWS - people have a full right to free speech. However, I resent people who are trampling on the rights of citizens by forcing cities to waste money and resources to provide safety for their "speech".

      Most of the they're-out-to-get-us scenarios are severely lacking in common sense. I think some of the blogs and news headlines and people crying "wolf" are dangerous. There are serious problems and concerns to consider - but when you project them to ridiculous levels of conspiracy the average person turns away and ignores them.

      kay
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        Steve - I think you missed the point.

        Ventura does talk - endlessly, sometimes. His complaint now is that he can't talk in front of a judge and jury (and the media that would result).

        How many times have we seen the prediction of dire events here? And that's a small sample of the conspiracies on blogs that repeat the same unquestioned pap from blog to another. Does anyone stop and question the "facts" of these outlandish articles? I doubt it.

        How many times have we been warned that a certain month/day/year would be "the end" or "a crisis" or "an uprising" or "a huge march for one thing or another"? Have you ever seen it occur?

        Usually the date passes with a whimper and the next theory of an uprising or crackdown or whatever becomes the topic of the conversation.
        I didn't miss the point. HEY, kooks DO exist! Some conspiracies AREN'T real. Some ARE real, but MEANINGLESS. Others are REAL, MEANINGFUL, but thwarted somehow. WHO KNOWS?

        Just yesterday, I had TWO conversations related to this. ONE is a book that speaks about a conspirative society. It was written long ago by a woman that lived through such things. The book starts out with a conspiracy of expectations. People lost faith in HER company that developed a GREAT reputation AND, being the best, came to EXPECT less and think more was IMPOSSIBLE!

        They CONSPIRED to keep her in the dark! WHY? Because she was a WOMAN! How could SHE understand such things! They didn't realize, until they heard her name, that SHE owned the company they were employed by.

        And she found that her BROTHER conspired to cause the problem, so that they would be FORCED to buy from a friend of his that conspired to make all distrust his competitor which was the #1 supplier in the industry.

        With the other guy, he started talking about some myths that were being created about one project. I told him I was no expert THERE but, TO THIS DAY, there are people claiming that the Y2K debacle was a MYTH! The only REAL myth in the whole thing is that the problem was done to save space. IBM mainframes have packed that goes to 9999. Two bytes could store more than that also.

        I do think we've lost some rights since 9/11 - but we've given them up. The right to privacy is all but gone but we were willing to trade it for the perception of safety and for internet access. How can we blame anyone but ourselves?
        The privacy problem due to the internet was gone BEFORE we got on it! And I have NO safety. Do you think the TSA protects us? HUH! PC behavior ENSURES that they are LESS likely to check the most likely areas to have weapons. There has NEVER been anything traced to them that has been thwarted.

        I was in an airport last month, taking off my shoes (my pet peeve) and going through a scanner and a quick patdown and what I overheard was the the average person has the attitude of "if it makes us safe, I'm all for it". The indoctrination is fairly complete and Ventura shouting about it won't change that.
        I WISH it made us safe. They don't even fully follow their own rules anyway. ***I*** couldn't take brand new sealed containers of toothpaste or coke through. EVEN drinking a coke was no proof. But a woman behind me took through a LARGE suitcase FILLED with cosmetics! That COULD have been C4, gunpowder, or who knows what?

        This was my first "patdown" as I've avoided flying since that nonsense started. I still think it's useless and reactive - just like taking off my shoes. However, the experience wasn't a big deal - very light touch and not at all intrusive.
        Well, you could step on something, get infected, and DIE! GRANTED that is unlikely, but the chances of a cut go from almost 0 to potentially upwards of 10%! So taking off your shoes IS a big deal! And the fact that EVERYONE is doing it makes it WORSE! If the floor is moist and/or warm enough, and someone with a parasite, etc... walks there, ALL that is missing is a well placed cut.

        And I go through a pat down. Sometimes, they came up a bit too fast in hitting my scrotum. That IS intrusive. And I have NO choice! Did you know that certain key words are NEVER to be used? If they find a bomb, what do they say? They can't say bomb.

        There is an expense to a jury trial and a judge's time - and other trial schedules would be delayed by a useless and news-targeted event. It's like OWS - people have a full right to free speech. However, I resent people who are trampling on the rights of citizens by forcing cities to waste money and resources to provide safety for their "speech".
        The US does not, and NEVER HAS, had a *****FULL***** right to free speech! The OWS group is BREAKING THE LAW by crowding the streets, and living in the parks. They are also NO allowed to camp out in the banks. They can speak their mind, hold a PLANNED parade, use PUBLIC property for its intent, etc... People living there can't even go to sleep. People that are in the 1% do NOT need to sleep there, or even BE there! Obviously, the 1% are NOT those complaining! ALSO, inciting insurrection is a crime. If they have a VALID gripe, they should simply state it. If they want to protest, they should have a SOLUTION ready! That IS rule 12 in the famous 13 step plan!

        Most of the they're-out-to-get-us scenarios are severely lacking in common sense. I think some of the blogs and news headlines and people crying "wolf" are dangerous. There are serious problems and concerns to consider - but when you project them to ridiculous levels of conspiracy the average person turns away and ignores them.

        kay
        Yeah. Like what I implied about the Y2K problem. some think it was a conspiracy to get more money, etc... Well, it WAS laziness, stupidity, bad managers, ridiculous expectations, etc..., but it was NOT a scam. I complained about it in the 70s when I was with my father on his job, as a programmer, and my mother on her job as an accountant. It seemed SO many programs were 19XX(expected to work for less than another 30 years). So many forms were 19DX(expected to work for less than TEN years! The old unused forms would be thrown out, and new ones received before the end of the decade.).

        BTW my parents were divorced. My father was a workaholic. It seemed like 55% of his life was sports, and 45% was WORK. My mother often brought work home. so I got to see a fair portion of both of their careers. My career choice WAS electronic engineer but, in the 80s, I figured that electronics was going to get more complicated, and computers were going to replace a lot of it, so I switched to computers.

        Programmers here may realize that EVEN PERL(Released in the 90s!!!!!!!) had the Y2K problem! THEY solved it by adding 100 to the result for the next century. 1900+$year would work right, but '19'.$year would return '19111' for 2011! Some databases now even have a windowing concept to handle 2 digit years. So NO, it wasn't a scam, just stupid laziness.

        Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
          Its pretty simple.

          Some people will prepare and some people will NEVER believe anything until it actually happens, which is usually too late, but each to his own.

          We don't need conspiracy theories, we have history.

          Nazi Germany did'nt just blow up. It started will slow erosion of rights that "appeared" reasonable and normal.

          And what about Rome?

          The Revolutionary War?

          The Civil War?

          Trying to convince naysayers is simply a waste of time, only when it is parked inside their mouth will they believe anything most times , anyway.

          Some will "get it" when their "escape" or pasttimes are slowly shrinking, disappearing or gone, like sports, theme parks, movies, t.v., radio shows, when these mediums are compromised to the point where they lose their attractiveness.

          Until then, all is normal, nothing really to be too concerned with.

          They were playing music , I think by famous German bands/groups, when they loaded them on trains.

          Arrogance in perceived assured security is the most easy of victims.


          The 13th Warrior
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          • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
            I know we got some people in the former Communist Germany?

            How did you survive before the wall came down?

            And what about the former U.S.S.R.?


            The 13th Warrior
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            • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
              While people were celebrating Christmas, one of the top 5 crimes in U.S. history took place in establishing the Federal Reserve.

              How can anything bad happen when people are celebrating their Lord, it can't possibly happen?

              So who are the true patriots, who really cared about Germany, those majority that waved the Nazi flag in its height or those that that did not agree with the practice?

              Those who talk about terrorist and political parties or those whose blood boils by knowing THE POWER is The Federal Reserve over the 3 branches of government?

              In both cases, the TRUE patriots are the few.

              Like the true followers and practitioner of religions are very few.

              Like the true practitioners of The Constitution and Bill of Rights and Liberty and Freedom are truly few.


              The 13th Warrior
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by Michael Milken View Post

            Iccording to conspiracy theorists, George Bush was supposed to serve a third term and put America under martial law. Not only that, the swine flu was supposed to be a disease created by the government to depopulate the world and put the people in concentration camps for refusing the vaccine. There was supposed to be another virus that was supposed to create a zombie outbreak. Sometime in October of this year, the world was supposed to have been destroyed by a passing asteroid. And the list of ridiculous failed predictions goes on. And these guys have the nerve to act as if people are brainwashed for not believing this nonsense.
            The rescinding of the "2 term limit" was only RECENTLY proposed! It has a time limit, most be passed by about 2017. George bush could not have benefited!

            The swine flu was discussed for YEARS BEFORE it came to be! The WHO was PUBLIC about trying to create it! It was often discussed on NPR. Their implied claim was that SOMEHOW it could only change ONE way, and was DESTINED to do so, and they tried to do it in hopes of coming out with a vaccine.

            I never heard about the zombie virus claims!

            NOBODY claimed that asteroid would destroy the planet. Didn't they claim it would MISS the planet? Someone HERE asked WHERE it would if IF it were to hit, and I told him that that would depend on the trajectory which we couldn't know because it wasn't happening!

            I love how people figure you must abandon history to have a valid claim about the future. The SAME ideas exist TODAY! In some way shape or form they affected maybe a dozen or more countries as recently as only a few years ago. It isn't ancient history. HECK, we are talking about a war that my PARENTS could almost have been a part of. THEY weren't, but I have a number of uncles that WERE in the military. Some MAY have been there. Do YOU know relatives that today would be around 85? HEY, maybe they grew quickly and lied, and would even be 83! MY parents would be around 77, or about 11 years old at the end of WWII. Had they been in europe, they would have been in about grade 6 and could have been around those ducking for air-raids! That kind of makes it seem more recent for ME.

            These ideas were discussed MILENNIA earlier, and are STILL being discussed.

            UNREAL that you think today's world is SO different.

            There WAS once a dream of a society with robots protecting the country, harvesting/growing food, ordering food, etc...
            And people that watch over it even living like on a tropical item, in hammocks sipping tea, etc... ALL of that is doable *****NOW*****! They have machines that can protect the country. They HAVE the machines that can plant! They HAVE the machines that can harvest! They HAVE the systems that can order! Maintaining it CAN be done from ANYWHERE. The work ethic and politics have degraded such that technology isn't being used properly. That promise is declared a pipedream NOT because it was crazy or not doable, but because they WON'T do it.

            A couple months ago, someone made a decision about me. The immediate savings I figure was about $40. It would have allowed me to work from home. OK, lets figure out how much he saved the company....

            $40... Immediate savings.
            ~1400 ... cost next week
            ~1400 ... cost next week
            ~1400 ... cost next week
            ~1400 ... cost next week
            ______
            TOTAL savings? Approx -$5560 In other words, it cost over 139 times what he saved.

            And last week they had NOTHING done! THAT cost them over $50400 ADDITIONAL!(3 people DEDICATED to work monday-friday, and they did NOTHING until friday, to allow us to do anything!)
            Had I had that little $40 key, I could have pushed them last month to have this done AND actually ACCOMPLISHED something! I could have suggested ANOTHER product that costs less than about $50.00(YEP, less than 3 $20 bills!) that could have saved them a TON! If they STILL didn't do anything, I could have at least saved them that $1400!(My coworker probably went to the hyatt and declared everything, for about $2400!) That $50K might have gone somewhere ELSE besides the toilet.

            But they wanted to do things their own way.

            When I spoke to that guy about Y2K I ALSO spoke of how idiots said planes would fall from the sky and GPS would cease to work, etc... Planes and GPS rely on SUB SECOND measurements, NOT dates. And planes don't use ANY of that to stay aloft. And planes have at least THREE ways of navigating. One is automatic, and uses GPS. One is semiautomatic, and uses technology that predates GPS. Almosteverything could fail, including GPS, and it would STILL work. And then there is the old fall back, that is so old that ships used it in the water hundreds of years ago.

            Of course, in a WORST case scenario, if radios went out, lights went out, and gps failed, there are STILL ways. They illustrated that dramatically in one die hard where the bad guys plane took off, trailing fuel, and mcclain set it ablaze. They used that as the runway lights, and landed accordingly. I doubt the fuel would have lit up like that, but it gets the point across.

            Even mythbusters sometimes takes and CREATES myths based on some crazy misunderstanding of the stories.

            Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
            Originally Posted by The 13th Warrior View Post

            Its pretty simple.

            Some people will prepare and some people will NEVER believe anything until it actually happens, which is usually too late, but each to his own.

            We don't need conspiracy theories, we have history.

            Nazi Germany did'nt just blow up. It started will slow erosion of rights that "appeared" reasonable and normal.

            And what about Rome?

            The Revolutionary War?

            The Civil War?

            Trying to convince naysayers is simply a waste of time, only when it is parked inside their mouth will they believe anything most times , anyway.

            Some will "get it" when their "escape" or pasttimes are slowly shrinking, disappearing or gone, like sports, theme parks, movies, t.v., radio shows, when these mediums are compromised to the point where they lose their attractiveness.

            Until then, all is normal, nothing really to be too concerned with.

            They were playing music , I think by famous German bands/groups, when they loaded them on trains.

            Arrogance in perceived assured security is the most easy of victims.


            The 13th Warrior
            The Nazi's are a good example of a group once they obtained power, quickly consolidated that power to snuff out all opposition.

            Rome started as a kingdom and never had a lot of pretenses regarding rule of law so that's a bad example IMHO.

            Civil War: I guess you mean the American one.

            The nation was in a state of insurrection.

            Is that not cause for suspending some civil liberties to defend the republic?

            I have the feeling the constitution addresses this issue - especially in time of war - and if not, it should have.

            Revolution: I guess you mean the American one.

            I don't get this example at all.

            Someone please help me understand.

            All The Best!!

            TL
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            • Profile picture of the author seasoned
              Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

              The Nazi's are a good example of a group once they obtained power, quickly consolidated that power to snuff out all opposition.

              Rome started as a kingdom and never had a lot of pretenses regarding rule of law so that's a bad example IMHO.

              Civil War: I guess you mean the American one.

              The nation was in a state of insurrection.

              Is that not cause for suspending some civil liberties to defend the republic?

              I have the feeling the constitution addresses this issue - especially in time of war - and if not, it should have.

              Revolution: I guess you mean the American one.

              I don't get this example at all.

              Someone please help me understand.

              All The Best!!

              TL
              You missed the point 100%!!!!!!!

              There is *****ALWAYS***** a "cause for suspending some civil liberties".

              In NAZI germany, they wanted EVERYONE to hire/buy u*(considered a bad word in this context), and claimed the others were bad, etc... and, as you said, try to get rid of all others. They had spies, that many probably didn't know about, in places, and trained kids to ferret out even their relatives and friends. If anyone didn't seem to comply, THEY were dealt with. They claimed a CAUSE!

              With the American revolution, they ALSO had various limits, to keep the colonies running smoothly. HECK, a bunch of Americans dressed up and committed ONE little tiny act, IN VIOLATION OF BRITISH LAW, and it hit the American history books. It was practically a sidenote in the war, like with Paul Revere. I don't know if they still teach it today, but they DID for over 200 years! It even had a cute little name. TODAY, a group took a name reminiscent of that much OLDER group. They are more peaceful, and not violating laws, but they are doing it with the SAME goal, and even made their name an ackronym to emphasize that. Their first real major victory was probably even in the same colony, now a state. ALAS, it seems all their detractors miss the irony!

              Steve
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              • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                You missed the point 100%!!!!!!!

                There is *****ALWAYS***** a "cause for suspending some civil liberties".

                In NAZI germany, they wanted EVERYONE to hire/buy u*(considered a bad word in this context), and claimed the others were bad, etc... and, as you said, try to get rid of all others. They had spies, that many probably didn't know about, in places, and trained kids to ferret out even their relatives and friends. If anyone didn't seem to comply, THEY were dealt with. They claimed a CAUSE!

                With the American revolution, they ALSO had various limits, to keep the colonies running smoothly. HECK, a bunch of Americans dressed up and committed ONE little tiny act, IN VIOLATION OF BRITISH LAW, and it hit the American history books. It was practically a sidenote in the war, like with Paul Revere. I don't know if they still teach it today, but they DID for over 200 years! It even had a cute little name. TODAY, a group took a name reminiscent of that much OLDER group. They are more peaceful, and not violating laws, but they are doing it with the SAME goal, and even made their name an ackronym to emphasize that. Their first real major victory was probably even in the same colony, now a state. ALAS, it seems all their detractors miss the irony!

                Steve
                You waxed poetic but...


                I still don't get dragging the Rev into this.

                But anyway...

                How about the Whiskey Rebellion?

                During his presidency, Washington himself lead a 15K man army into western Pennsylvania to quell an uprising over taxes on spirits.

                Then there was...

                - The Alien and Sedition Acts were four bills passed in 1798 - while Adams was president by the Federalists in the 5th United States Congress in the aftermath of the French Revolution's reign of terror.

                Alien and Sedition Acts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                - Suspending civil liberties during the Civil war makes perfect sense to me.

                Does someone have a problem with it???


                TL
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                "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Michael -- yelling tinfoil every time people are worried about something going on is a programmed response. It's called "slip programming". It is extremely easily achieved. I know this for a fact as it was the subject of my degree dissertation. If you find yourself automatically yelling about "tinfoil" and calling anyone with a concern over the power the gov is taking instead of looking at what the concerns are - you need to stop and wonder why you do so. If a government writing off your habeas corpus rights seems like something of no concern to you -- a few courses in good old fashioned political science/political history should sharpen up that sense of alarm a little bit.

    The reason people draw parallels between empires such as Hitler's, Mussolini's, etc -- is because the parallels are THERE. The more legislation against our rights and the more corporate alliance between gov and corporations, the more we should be worried. Every instance of these conditions in the history of the world has gone very badly for its citizens -- yet you think we are going to break history somehow?

    I'm not sorry for you -- I'm sorry for the fact that the freedom of every person in this country is at risk when too many people have egocentric beliefs that "we are different, more advanced, and above that sort of thing". That idea is proven wrong in EVERY instance - and is the most dangerous idea in the history of humankind - not just in politics, but in every aspect of life.

    Ask yourself two things - we have written protection of our freedoms why? They are legislating against these freedoms why? If you can't get past those two questions without feeling a need to start taking a serious look at what is being done, then I say it is high time for you to get an education in politics at an Ivy League school - your stomach will turn and you will have trouble sleeping. Trust me on that one.

    Kay -- I'm not sure we are discussing the same weapon. There is one that sends heat radiation and one that actually is lightning. I am talking about the one that they actually make lightning. The documents state that the lightning weapon is non-lethal. So are tasers, yet way over 300 people have been killed by them, and those are used one person at a time. The lightning weapon is far from "safe". Got jewelry on - or eyeglasses? Don't get caught in the area they let that thing off in. Certain medical conditions or just prone to heavy sweating? Oh oh. Electricity is not something that is as benign as they want you to believe. Their own test of these weapons proves that. Also consider what happens when someone with an "authority" problem decides to turn up the juice. Then there are the smaller considerations like what happens if your car just happens to be parked within range even if you are not part of the group that is being "subdued". Good luck starting it again.

    There are just some weapons made for war that should never be used on civilians in their own country. In war a few casualties is something that is considered a "safe alternative" -- in a country that wants to use that on its own citizens because they didn't like having their rights violated it's a travesty and form of slavery to threaten people with electricity for civil disobedience in reaction to usurpation of rights. Right now they have the weaponry and all the legalities set up that they can use these weapons for forced obedience to draconian law. That is just wrong on every level.
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Originally Posted by Michael Milken View Post

      I didn't yell anything, I'm just calling out the pattern of lies told by conspiracy theorists to show how your group of people are misinformed. You all are quick to act as if a person is brainwashed for paying you all no attention, but completely forgetting about your 0% success rate when it comes to predicting things that will happen.

      You can draw parallels all you want and make whatever claim you want, but that doesn't change the fact that nothing has ever happened that a conspiracy person has predicted. Period.
      Here's proof of the control Monsanto has over the FDA and Ag. dept.

      Here's a video showing how the FDA has suppressed a cure for cancer.
      Burzynski: Cancer Is Serious Business on Vimeo

      Neither one are nut jobs spouting made up stories.
      Both are people showing the documented proof of their claims.
      No drawing parallels just documented proof of the conspiracies.
      Hard to say they are lies when when the people in government admit they are true.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by Michael Milken View Post

      I didn't yell anything, I'm just calling out the pattern of lies told by conspiracy theorists to show how your group of people are misinformed. You all are quick to act as if a person is brainwashed for paying you all no attention, but completely forgetting about your 0% success rate when it comes to predicting things that will happen.

      You can draw parallels all you want and make whatever claim you want, but that doesn't change the fact that nothing has ever happened that a conspiracy person has predicted. Period.
      My success rate is FAR from 0% at predicting things! HEY, some people predicted things in the 40s that continue to happen while people say they never will. It really is incredible. I predicted things based on what some people have uttered. I predicted what would happen with things as they were. I mentioned it as early as 2000. I EVEN predicted what might happen in the WORLD if that happened! I waited and waited and waited. 2008 I was proved RIGHT! EVEN TODAY! I EVEN predicted how people like the germans would react! I mused in the 80s about something. It turns out that THAT played a part in 2008 ALSO! I said one company was run by idots and should go bankrupt. A couple years later it finally DID! ENRON!

      It IS astounding! There are two things that, although I mused about their POTENTIAL in the early eighties, I figured in the late 80s that they weren't TOO likely to happen. WHY? Because I wrote TWO systems to PREVENT THEM! Granted, we didn't sell to EVERYONE, but apparently BOTH had competitors. The story was that other banks had people sprawled out on the floor doing it MANUALLY! You figure with THAT work, and spending $100s of thousands on software, that they would be SERIOUS!

      I guess I should have known better, the EPN system(Supposedly the international infrastructure) STUNK! The other simply tracked notes and file on mortgages. A SIMPLE task, but apparently MANY banks aren't doing it! WOW!

      I predicted the drop in status of IBM around 1980, and the downfall of SUN when they switched to commodity hardware and offered their OS on other platforms. I never thought IBM would go as far as to have a laptop, but I guess they figured they had to compete. There was a mystique IBM created LONG ago. They badmouthed the very IDEA of a microcomputer. Only ONE thing was more damaging to their persona than selling a micro! That was selling a micro based on COMMODITY products. It's a shame Sun didn't take their JAVA private! I was actually waiting for sun's stock to drop so I could buy it. I never did because I felt they were goners by that time. I should have seen that it was a good buy for someone like oracle. Oracle bought it, and now even builds sun sparc systems that run oracle!

      I predicted WANGS demise! Too far behind the times. I actually LAUGHED when I heard that we were going to convert our software to run on a wang system! My boss didn't understand it! TWO YEARS later, they went BANKRUPT, and we had to RECONVERT the software to LOOK like WANG on an IBM RS6000! I predicted DECS demise in the early 90s! They got too big for their britches. It's a SHAME! They had JUST come out with a product that could have taken off! THEN, they decided they couldn't compete, so they SUED INTEL! They lost their shirts, and went BANKRUPT!

      So to say I am 0%? NAW! If I could have monetized every prediction I made, I bet the correct ones would have wiped out all my loses on the bad ones, that were MOSTLY bad because of program trading and misconceptions of others.

      And DON'T FORGET! MANY theories are based on what may or WILL happen. If circumstances change, the predictions will. FEW theories say they have enough control to dictate a time frame. Like that thing predicted in the 40s. It may have started earlier. It may take another 100 years. But few can honestly doubt it is happening. It is interesting that so many doubted even in the 50s, though so many incredible accusations were proven true. Oh well. Promise enough good, and it is incredible how much evil will be overlooked.

      Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by Michael Milken View Post

      I didn't yell anything, I'm just calling out the pattern of lies told by conspiracy theorists to show how your group of people are misinformed. You all are quick to act as if a person is brainwashed for paying you all no attention, but completely forgetting about your 0% success rate when it comes to predicting things that will happen.

      You can draw parallels all you want and make whatever claim you want, but that doesn't change the fact that nothing has ever happened that a conspiracy person has predicted. Period.
      That is such an uninformed statement that I can't consider you educated enough to bother discussing the issue with you any further. What a lark.

      Calhoun - the material is called Thor Shield. G-SQUARED CONSULTING: The Best Products in Energy Weapon Protection.

      Kay - can't remember the name of that damned thing. They ionize the air somehow then shoot the electricity and it reacts the exact way lightning does. If you have ever seen information on some of the problems lightning survivors live with, you will understand how dangerous it is to hit someone with electricity - especially if it can be turned up beyond levels of the average electric fence. I think about the only way to really be safe from the weapon would be either to be able to get your hands on some Thor Shield (which is sold only to police and military) or to find some way to de-ionize air surrounding you.

      Interesting note: My step sister-in-law is from Germany. She had relatives behind the curtain. My step-brother is a high-level civilian employee of the military - and was an officer at one time. They are getting ready to move back to Germany where "it's safer". Get your head around that one.
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Originally Posted by Michael Milken View Post

      I didn't yell anything, I'm just calling out the pattern of lies told by conspiracy theorists to show how your group of people are misinformed. You all are quick to act as if a person is brainwashed for paying you all no attention, but completely forgetting about your 0% success rate when it comes to predicting things that will happen.

      You can draw parallels all you want and make whatever claim you want, but that doesn't change the fact that nothing has ever happened that a conspiracy person has predicted. Period.
      By the way Mike, it was HaySal who first told me about Monsanto 3 or 4 years ago. I didn't believe her then and thought she was a nut.
      She warned me about Round-up also and I told her she was crazy. After all I went to college for Plant Science and took a course in weed control where we studied pest and herbicides. So I was 'educated' in that field and had dealt with Monsanto reps in school where they talked about how safe Round-up is and the new technology they where working on, genetically modifying our food. Their claims even then where how both where not only approved by the Dept. of Ag. and the FDA, but how both depts. where pushing them.
      Here's more on Round-up, remember this herbicide is approved by the FDA and dept. of Ag. as being safe.
      Dr. Huber Lays it All Out: Roundup is Killing Us*|*Safelawns Daily Post and Q&A Blog
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        We have a history for using pesticides that in the end turn out to be more dangerous than the pests they killed.

        The problem is it often takes many years for the dangers inherent in a product to become known. When Roundup was introduced it was a replacement for even deadlier chemicals.

        I'm not sure the products or our lifestyle is the real problem. We want flower beds without weeds - but we aren't willing to weed those beds every other day like previous generations did. We want lawns with no weeds which isn't natural. We want our fencelines and the space around trees and shrubs to be neat and weed free but we don't want to put in the labor to do it naturally. We want our fruits and vegetables in markets to be perfect - no worm holes, no insects. How do you do that without using herbicides and pesticides? You can't.

        We've forgotten the joy of finding our favorite foods "in season". Now we expect to be able to buy raspberries, strawberries and fresh veggies all year round in the market. That's not normal and we use non-renewable resources to transport foods thousands of miles. We use artificial means to increase crop production to provide foods to be transported.

        I don't think there's any way to stop development of genetically altered food and I'm not sure it should be stopped. What if a stalk of corn produced 5-6 ears each instead of 1-2? I do think it needs to be managed outside the huge corps who reap the profits from it.

        Perfection doesn't exist in nature. Ordered chaos is the natural tendency of growing things. Trying to force nature to meet our vision of perfection is the reason pesticides and herbicides will continue to sell no matter what the warnings are.

        kay
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        • Profile picture of the author ThomM
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          We have a history for using pesticides that in the end turn out to be more dangerous than the pests they killed.

          The problem is it often takes many years for the dangers inherent in a product to become known. When Roundup was introduced it was a replacement for even deadlier chemicals.

          I'm not sure the products or our lifestyle is the real problem. We want flower beds without weeds - but we aren't willing to weed those beds every other day like previous generations did. We want lawns with no weeds which isn't natural. We want our fencelines and the space around trees and shrubs to be neat and weed free but we don't want to put in the labor to do it naturally. We want our fruits and vegetables in markets to be perfect - no worm holes, no insects. How do you do that without using herbicides and pesticides? You can't.

          We've forgotten the joy of finding our favorite foods "in season". Now we expect to be able to buy raspberries, strawberries and fresh veggies all year round in the market. That's not normal and we use non-renewable resources to transport foods thousands of miles. We use artificial means to increase crop production to provide foods to be transported.

          I don't think there's any way to stop development of genetically altered food and I'm not sure it should be stopped. What if a stalk of corn produced 5-6 ears each instead of 1-2? I do think it needs to be managed outside the huge corps who reap the profits from it.

          Perfection doesn't exist in nature. Ordered chaos is the natural tendency of growing things. Trying to force nature to meet our vision of perfection is the reason pesticides and herbicides will continue to sell no matter what the warnings are.

          kay
          Kay you really need to watch those videos to see how serious this really is. Then you would know that testing was done by outside sources that showed the health effects of GMO's and what happened to those test's.
          You would know that the FDA's decisions on the safety of GMO's has nothing to do with studies or tests.
          Do you think people would be all that concerned about how pretty their food is if they knew that very same food was what was making them sick?
          If you knew that corn that has been genetically modified will cause rapid cell division in your body, would you still be so gung ho to eat it?
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      • Profile picture of the author HeySal
        Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

        By the way Mike, it was HaySal who first told me about Monsanto 3 or 4 years ago. I didn't believe her then and thought she was a nut.
        She warned me about Round-up also and I told her she was crazy. After all I went to college for Plant Science and took a course in weed control where we studied pest and herbicides. So I was 'educated' in that field and had dealt with Monsanto reps in school where they talked about how safe Round-up is and the new technology they where working on, genetically modifying our food. Their claims even then where how both where not only approved by the Dept. of Ag. and the FDA, but how both depts. where pushing them.
        Here's more on Round-up, remember this herbicide is approved by the FDA and dept. of Ag. as being safe.
        Dr. Huber Lays it All Out: Roundup is Killing Us*|*Safelawns Daily Post and Q&A Blog
        You would not believe the number of ex-Monsanto executives in both the FDA and high levels of gov. They also give hella cash to the FDA. Don't ever forget that the FDA is funded by the very corporations they are supposed to be protecting us from. Can you spell c-o-n-f-l-i-c-t o-f i-n-t-e-r-e-s-t? When independent research of many of the new vaccines started turning up how absolutely dangerous they really are, instead of being protected from them, legislation was written disallowing people to sue for damages caused by them. When Monsanto GMO plants started migrating and getting mixed with organic farmer's plants instead of stopping Monsanto from making these seeds, the corporation was allowed to sue farmers for patent infringement. Stephen King couldn't write this crap.

        There are mega amounts of farmers (tens to hundreds of thousands) now waging a suit against Monsanto to put an end to the corporation being able to sue them for devastation of their natural food fields via the migration of the frankenfood plants. The company may just be seeing the last of their ability to destroy any farmer who refuses to plant their seeds. And thank that company for the price of your food, too -- those seeds are causing a rise in food prices because you can't harvest those seeds for the next year, you have to buy more - and they are somewhere around twice the price of real ones.

        Any time you eat a processed food with corn or soy in it (which means almost ALL processed food) you are eating GMO. There is no labeling requirement. In fact, the company has done very well in getting the FDA and gov to legislate against labeling requirements. Right now hundreds of thousands of people are petitioning to require labeling of any food that contains any GMO food.

        If you are a consumer who doesn't want the illnesses caused by GMO foods - refuse to buy any with corn or soy in them and we can tip the scales on our own. Stores don't carry what doesn't sell. It was refusal to buy that stopped the GMO foods in Europe. Stores couldn't sell it so just stopped carrying it.

        Our people need to start waking up to the power we have against corporations. You hear a lot of yacking about how we need the jobs -- but truth be told, if a major corporation takes a dive, there will be plenty of mom-and-pop start ups to take over, and they will need employees, too. We can either continue to be so afraid for our jobs that we allow corporations to own us - or we can fix the growing problem that large corporations are causing us by just refusing to deal with them. It's REALLY that simple. Corporations can be killed as simply as refusing to buy from them - if people stop working for them as well, we can return at least our business sector to normalcy without having to say one word to any of our representatives about it.
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

          You would not believe the number of ex-Monsanto executives in both the FDA and high levels of gov. They also give hella cash to the FDA. Don't ever forget that the FDA is funded by the very corporations they are supposed to be protecting us from. Can you spell c-o-n-f-l-i-c-t o-f i-n-t-e-r-e-s-t? When independent research of many of the new vaccines started turning up how absolutely dangerous they really are, instead of being protected from them, legislation was written disallowing people to sue for damages caused by them. When Monsanto GMO plants started migrating and getting mixed with organic farmer's plants instead of stopping Monsanto from making these seeds, the corporation was allowed to sue farmers for patent infringement. Stephen King couldn't write this crap.
          I would argue that you can't sue a person for patent infringement if a person simply puts a copied item on another's property. That would allow you to sue the US for having GUCCI knockoffs on its streets. So they should sue the manufacturer! In this case, it is the CORN plant! Since it is on MY land, and that plant should be what I planted and paid for, should be able to sue THEM for trespassing, property damage, libel, slander, etc... ALL from their indescriminate cross breeding of MY corn!

          There are mega amounts of farmers (tens to hundreds of thousands) now waging a suit against Monsanto to put an end to the corporation being able to sue them for devastation of their natural food fields via the migration of the frankenfood plants. The company may just be seeing the last of their ability to destroy any farmer who refuses to plant their seeds. And thank that company for the price of your food, too -- those seeds are causing a rise in food prices because you can't harvest those seeds for the next year, you have to buy more - and they are somewhere around twice the price of real ones.
          My point exactly.

          Any time you eat a processed food with corn or soy in it (which means almost ALL processed food) you are eating GMO. There is no labeling requirement. In fact, the company has done very well in getting the FDA and gov to legislate against labeling requirements. Right now hundreds of thousands of people are petitioning to require labeling of any food that contains any GMO food.
          What would be the point? Based on what I have read, you CAN'T have corn AND monsanto GMO corn. EVERY corn product would be required to say GMO EVEN if it is believe to NOT be GMO because, sooner or later, it probably WILL be.

          If you are a consumer who doesn't want the illnesses caused by GMO foods - refuse to buy any with corn or soy in them and we can tip the scales on our own. Stores don't carry what doesn't sell. It was refusal to buy that stopped the GMO foods in Europe. Stores couldn't sell it so just stopped carrying it.
          AGAIN, we would have to hope that the monsanto stuff can be weeded out, and that farmers were willing to do so, to hope we can reverse the trend. It could take a couple corn generations to do so.

          Our people need to start waking up to the power we have against corporations. You hear a lot of yacking about how we need the jobs -- but truth be told, if a major corporation takes a dive, there will be plenty of mom-and-pop start ups to take over, and they will need employees, too. We can either continue to be so afraid for our jobs that we allow corporations to own us - or we can fix the growing problem that large corporations are causing us by just refusing to deal with them. It's REALLY that simple. Corporations can be killed as simply as refusing to buy from them - if people stop working for them as well, we can return at least our business sector to normalcy without having to say one word to any of our representatives about it.
          Their WHOLE sales pitch is to reduce labor. Getting rid of it could increase outside jobs, and lead to more food overall. ALSO, mom and pop farmers would be able to compete on a more level field.

          If we get RID of the ethanol scams, and the other scams, we could improve the quality of life, food availability, health, and bring unemployment down to ZERO! Of course, I am talking about like the top 6 scams in the US, not just the GMO one.

          Did you know it is ILLEGAL to ship ethanol? You need a special license for it, and have to take special care. After all, they don't want someone drinking it as a beverage. That is EXPENSIVE! I met an E85 consultant a few years ago, and HE mentioned this! You know how they get around that law? They ADULTERATE IT, by adding gas. It is then shipped somewhere and brought to the E85 spec for the area. So you REALLY have to wonder what the total savings in gas related pollution is ANYWAY. And it can eat through a lot of components, especially on older cars. The total mileage is WORSE than regular gas, and now the two cost roughly the SAME! So there may be NO benefit to using E85, but there are certainly benefits to using regular gas.

          The word is getting out about CFLs. I have had BAD luck with them. Incandescents seem to last longer. I recently went to a store that sells ONLY lights and batteries. I was tired and had nothing better to do, so I chatted with the guy there. I asked him how long the 9YR CFLs REALLY last. He said they have a 2YR warranty, and HE didn't have much luck with them EITHER. I told him my plight and how I had them on 24hours a day. He said THAT was my problem. Well, I have the incandescents on 24 hours a day ALSO! And printer ink for printers typically says that the page yield is based on 5% coverage! Bulbs should state the duty cycle ALSO, if they wish to use it as an excuse.

          I'll only hint at another one. There IS a way we can get MILLIONS of jobs overnight, and save an average of about 80K+ jobs a year. It would not cost a penny, and could save a lot. And almost all the jobs would be PRIVATE, and run the gambit. Everything from positions at subway to nuclear physicists and rocket scientists.

          But I bet NONE of it will be done.

          Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author LeeLee
            Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

            I'll only hint at another one. There IS a way we can get MILLIONS of jobs overnight, and save an average of about 80K+ jobs a year. It would not cost a penny, and could save a lot. And almost all the jobs would be PRIVATE, and run the gambit. Everything from positions at subway to nuclear physicists and rocket scientists.

            But I bet NONE of it will be done.

            Steve
            Could you give a bigger hint for the remedial audience ?
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            • Profile picture of the author seasoned
              Originally Posted by LeeLee View Post

              Could you give a bigger hint for the remedial audience ?
              OK,OK, I got carried away with the hint. Yet ANOTHER prediction I made a while ago that came to pass. They CLAIMED we had TOO MANY jobs! NOW, they claim we don't have enough! So it is an OBVIOUS fix!

              Steve
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              • Profile picture of the author LeeLee
                Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                OK,OK, I got carried away with the hint. Yet ANOTHER prediction I made a while ago that came to pass. They CLAIMED we had TOO MANY jobs! NOW, they claim we don't have enough! So it is an OBVIOUS fix!

                Steve
                Thanks. You know what I have always wondered about? How did we absorb such a large group into the workforce when women got really serious about working outside the home?

                In a period of say 20 years the workforce doubled. How did that happen?
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                • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                  Originally Posted by LeeLee View Post

                  Thanks. You know what I have always wondered about? How did we absorb such a large group into the workforce when women got really serious about working outside the home?

                  In a period of say 20 years the workforce doubled. How did that happen?
                  That is an unfair comparison. Back then, things were not so expensive, etc... ALSO, there were new technologies, etc... For example, the first telephone operators apparently were ****MALE****! They found that people treated the women better and the women treated them better, and things just ran more smoothly, so they started hiring WOMEN. And that is why you may see old films, etc... showing switchboards, sometimes as far as the eye can see, and all women. Automats went out of style, and mostly women took THEM over! There were secretarial jobs also. And the population grew and you certainly needed more teachers.

                  But all this is on the assumption that it went from 0% to 100% overnight. It DIDN'T. That NEVER happened. It may have been more like 10%-60%. You see women were ALWAYS there SOMEWHERE. And they never ALL wanted to work. Even TODAY, it is less than 60% But there was a societal limit. Society wanted someone at HOME! The CAREGIVER! To monitor the home, take care of solicitors and repair people, watch the kids, etc... And the average family could afford it. So the workforce was mainly limited to the qualified men that wanted the job.

                  It was almost like "rosie the riveter"! Why did THEY all of the sudden ALL get work? The men had to fight WWII. SOMEBODY had to help take care of the nation and most of those that were then ABLE happened to be WOMEN! Some of them went ONLY because it was considered ther DUTY, or they wanted to win the war, etc... They really would have preferred NOT to do it.

                  Do you think that the number in the US workforce is stagnant and that somehow needs are skyrocketing? Neither is the case AND, if it were, getting a job would be simple anyway. Yet THAT is what many would like you to believe.

                  Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author HeySal
        Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

        By the way Mike, it was HaySal who first told me about Monsanto 3 or 4 years ago. I didn't believe her then and thought she was a nut.
        She warned me about Round-up also and I told her she was crazy. After all I went to college for Plant Science and took a course in weed control where we studied pest and herbicides. So I was 'educated' in that field and had dealt with Monsanto reps in school where they talked about how safe Round-up is and the new technology they where working on, genetically modifying our food. Their claims even then where how both where not only approved by the Dept. of Ag. and the FDA, but how both depts. where pushing them.
        Here's more on Round-up, remember this herbicide is approved by the FDA and dept. of Ag. as being safe.
        Dr. Huber Lays it All Out: Roundup is Killing Us*|*Safelawns Daily Post and Q&A Blog
        You mean you didn't believe me? But I said "trust me on that one". I never say "trust me on that one" unless you can trust me on that one.
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    • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
      Originally Posted by Michael Milken View Post


      I didn't yell anything, I'm just calling out the pattern of lies told by conspiracy theorists to show how your group of people are misinformed. You all are quick to act as if a person is brainwashed for paying you all no attention, but completely forgetting about your 0% success rate when it comes to predicting things that will happen.

      You can draw parallels all you want and make whatever claim you want, but that doesn't change the fact that nothing has ever happened that a conspiracy person has predicted. Period.

      Suspend history, well, suggest that to any military tactician and you'll be hauled off to the nut house.

      Scientist would not have anything to go on, this is crazy.

      Lies???

      You mean truth like Palestine is a made up people? How about Bosnia or American 1,000 years ago?

      You mean truth like the reason we entered into Vietnam?

      You mean truth like Corporations are the majority job creators?

      Truth like Saddam has weapons of mass destruction?

      You mean truth like the less rich people pay taxes and are suspended from regulations, the more jobs they create?

      You call a 90 something to 7 vote from elected officials to give power to the military to detain Americans with no trial, no rights, no hearing, no Constitutional or Bill of Rights, indefinitely with but just an accusation with ambiguous language so confusing that the best lawyers in the nation cannot make heads or tales of it LIES or Conspiracy Theory?

      Who tells the truth , in your opinion, facts? Fox? Rush? CNN?

      I'll bet.

      Yes, give us more of your truth.

      Hey , keep talking like that, unless you already have it, The Heritage Foundation or groups like that or Koch brothers or some other billionaire may give you a talk show and throw money at for your dis-information opinion..., maybe you are already in some club getting benefits or working in the political$$$$$ field in some manner.

      Cha-Ching.


      The 13th Warrior
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  • I think the "heat" one you may be referring to is the ADS (Active Denial System). It is essentially a heat ray developed by Raytheon, developed for crowd control. It is non-lethal, but very painful.

    I am not sure which technology the lightning one would be, never heard of that one, unless it is a directed Tesla coil of some sort. It seems that would require a lot of energy to direct I suppose, but then, it only takes only 100mA to stop your heart, under certain conditions.

    But then, even a standard 9 volt battery can kill you...
    Don't believe it?
    http://www.darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin1999-50.html
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    It is IMPOSSIBLE to feel electricity unless it hits the nerves or burns you. There is a TINY portion of your heart that puts out a low power at a certain frequency. They are SO important that some people have a MINOR failure in them and could die ANY SECOND! Luckily, they have a mechanical device named after the cells which have an appropriate name. The device is known as a PACEMAKER!

    Anyway, if ******ANY******* voltage or frequency overrides that LOW power, or interferes with the frequency, it ******CAN****** kill! The amount of power varies based on the frequency, distance, resistance, etc.... Basically, if it causes your heart to fail to do what it has to do, or gets it to do the opposite, it will cause a condition that could break the feedback that will cause it to beat, and your heart STOPS! If it isn't started in time, YOU'RE DEAD!

    SO, basically, someone designing an electrical weapon that can deter an attacker but be NON lethal is doing a NEAR IMPOSSIBLE task! It has to be high enough to stun them, which makes it high enough to kill, but NOT high enough to kill. Since the two are mutually exclusive, they have to make the full power low enough to not do damage, and make sure that the shortest path through the circuit does NOT cross the heart!!!!!!!

    With a taser, WHAT is the likelihood that the darts will be on both sides of the heart such that a line could connect them? Luckily, not TOO common. If you have some kind of ray, it will HAVE to use the ground as a ground, to really have an effect, and the chances of crossing the heart are greater. Remember, they MIGHT be holding metal, or a rod that is more conductive than they are. They might not have a foot on the ground. ALL that affects how the power would go through them.

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      It is IMPOSSIBLE to feel electricity unless it hits the nerves or burns you. There is a TINY portion of your heart that puts out a low power at a certain frequency. They are SO important that some people have a MINOR failure in them and could die ANY SECOND! Luckily, they have a mechanical device named after the cells which have an appropriate name. The device is known as a PACEMAKER!

      Anyway, if ******ANY******* voltage or frequency overrides that LOW power, or interferes with the frequency, it ******CAN****** kill! The amount of power varies based on the frequency, distance, resistance, etc.... Basically, if it causes your heart to fail to do what it has to do, or gets it to do the opposite, it will cause a condition that could break the feedback that will cause it to beat, and your heart STOPS! If it isn't started in time, YOU'RE DEAD!

      SO, basically, someone designing an electrical weapon that can deter an attacker but be NON lethal is doing a NEAR IMPOSSIBLE task! It has to be high enough to stun them, which makes it high enough to kill, but NOT high enough to kill. Since the two are mutually exclusive, they have to make the full power low enough to not do damage, and make sure that the shortest path through the circuit does NOT cross the heart!!!!!!!

      With a taser, WHAT is the likelihood that the darts will be on both sides of the heart such that a line could connect them? Luckily, not TOO common. If you have some kind of ray, it will HAVE to use the ground as a ground, to really have an effect, and the chances of crossing the heart are greater. Remember, they MIGHT be holding metal, or a rod that is more conductive than they are. They might not have a foot on the ground. ALL that affects how the power would go through them.

      Steve
      The voltage isnt what kills you, its the amps.

      Tazers/stun guns are set to a high enough voltage to incapacitate someone but NOT enough amps to kill them.

      Source: I own a 5.8 million volt stun gun. No, I'm not exaggerating. lol
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      • Originally Posted by Whos That Guru View Post

        The voltage isnt what kills you, its the amps.

        Tazers/stun guns are set to a high enough voltage to incapacitate someone but NOT enough amps to kill them.

        Source: I own a 5.8 million volt stun gun. No, I'm not exaggerating. lol
        The voltage isnt what kills you, its the amps.

        Exactly my point - I = P / E -
        1 kA could run an Smelting Plant
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by MoneyMagnetMagnate View Post

          The voltage isnt what kills you, its the amps.

          Exactly my point - I = P / E -
          1 amp could run an Smelting Plant
          well, I meant to say power or watts, and I don't know why you even show the above equation...

          i(or amps)=P(or watts or power)/e(volts)

          P=IE

          As for 1 amp running a smelting plant? 1 amp IS a lot, but 1 amp on a 120 volt circuit is only 120 watts. The average clothes dryer has more Amps, hair dryers do, and many computers do. And circuit breakers may be like 20+ AMPs EACH! Sometimes a crcuit breaker may power a LOT of circuts. In a small house, they could have one for nearly all the outlets. The refrigerator, dryer, furnace, etc... often have their own and NOT just to isolate them. Can 1AMP melt metal? CERTAINLY! Even LESS could melt metal. But run a smelting plant? And power is often transferred as high voltage, and kicked down and the amperage goes up, so talking in THOSE terms is cheating. Laptops drop the voltage and raise the amperage. Apparently the USB 2.0 spec calls for at least a full power of 1/2 AMP.

          Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by Whos That Guru View Post

        The voltage isnt what kills you, its the amps.

        Tazers/stun guns are set to a high enough voltage to incapacitate someone but NOT enough amps to kill them.

        Source: I own a 5.8 million volt stun gun. No, I'm not exaggerating. lol
        I meant to say power. Still, if it hits the right spot.... People have been hit by a lot of amps and a lot of volts, and survived. Heck, COMPUTERS have ALSO! But in either case, the wrong area gets hit by a little, and it is toast.

        Steve
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  • And here I thought every lad was still issued a shillelagh... :rolleyes:
    Did they run out?

    But then, that hurley bugger looks like a hockey stick on steroids...
    (or a baseball bat that got run over by a steamroller...:rolleyes
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
    lol I'm not saying its impossible for a tazer or stun gun to kill somebody - that has been proven by the police plenty of times in the past.. it is POSSIBLE. anything is possible.

    but its highly unlikely. i used it on myself when i got it to see what it would do. if i have to use it on someone else, i want to know exactly how bad its gonna be first.

    that damn thing put 2 holes in my leg (through my pants) LOL

    but then again, not only is it 5.8 million volts, it has 2 giant spikes on it.

    heres a stock photo of it:



    that thing HURTS. lol for real.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    WTG,

    If you have two holes in your pants, and put a TRILLION amps through it, it probably wouldn't kill you! In fact, I knew a guy, in highschool, that played on a high powered train, and got the wires wrapped around his legs(HIGH AMPERAGE HIGH VOLTAGE, and of course, thus, HIGH WATTAGE). He SURVIVED! His LEGS were destroyed, and were amputated, but he LIVED! Of course, THAT power was FAR more than your little tazer could ever generate. I wish I could remember his name, but I may be able to look it up. It happened around 1979.

    One of the MAIN threats of death is the HEART. If the power doesn't cross IT, you will likely survive.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
    lol well yea, i know that.

    i dunno if im agreeing with u or not, your posts are always so intense.. lol but im just sayin that its highly unlikely that someone will die from a tazer or stun gun. VERY unlikely.

    if thats what u were saying, then yea i agree haha
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by Whos That Guru View Post

      lol well yea, i know that.

      i dunno if im agreeing with u or not, your posts are always so intense.. lol but im just sayin that its highly unlikely that someone will die from a tazer or stun gun. VERY unlikely.

      if thats what u were saying, then yea i agree haha
      Basically, I am saying that the TAZER uses TWO conductors and, unless they hit just right(which IS unlikely), the person WILL survive. The lightning deal that SAL was discussing would have ONE conductor so it is anyone's guess how the power may flow and so it is more likely it will kill someone.

      HEY, even PURE lightning strikes don't necessarily kill, or even burn.

      Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        If you have two holes in your pants
        You need new pants?



        Sal - I think you are right. Could the one you refer to be the scapped project that was a "lightening gun"?

        Pentagon's Lightning Gun Sold for Scraps on eBay | Danger Room | Wired.com

        The only similar thing I can find is theoretical and not a suit but something like a "ray".

        Some interesting fabrics on the site below. Guess you'd have to be planning an activity that might leave you open to tazers, etc if you need this stuff.

        Thor Shield Energy Weapon-Proof Fabric: Science Fiction in the News
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        Saving one dog will not save the world....but will forever change the world for one dog.
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        • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
          Re: Survival tips for living and prospering under Martial Law

          Avoid being in the country that is under martial law.

          Joe Mobley


          The only winning move is not to play.
          WOPR


          Signature

          .

          Follow Me on Twitter: @daVinciJoe
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by Joe Mobley View Post

            Re: Survival tips for living and prospering under Martial Law

            Avoid being in the country that is under martial law.

            Joe Mobley


            The only winning move is not to play.
            WOPR


            YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.
            That is one of the most phony parts of the whole movie. about the only real thing is the idea of planning, graphics on the screens, and the idea that some games take 0 players as a kind of demo mode. But it is maybe the only part that really gives hope, and a happy ending. NOW, if we could get some people to understand that. Of course PEOPLE don't follow rules like woppr so some moves DO win, at least short term.

            Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          You need new pants?



          Sal - I think you are right. Could the one you refer to be the scapped project that was a "lightening gun"?

          Pentagon's Lightning Gun Sold for Scraps on eBay | Danger Room | Wired.com

          The only similar thing I can find is theoretical and not a suit but something like a "ray".

          Some interesting fabrics on the site below. Guess you'd have to be planning an activity that might leave you open to tazers, etc if you need this stuff.

          Thor Shield Energy Weapon-Proof Fabric: Science Fiction in the News
          "remote-controlled lightning guns that it hoped would fry insurgent bombs"

          FRY!?!?!? I rest my case!!!!

          Steve
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  • This guy sure could have used that Thor Suit Sal! Ever hear of this fellow?

    Story of a Man Who Was Struck By Lightning 7 Times

    US Park Ranger Roy C. Sullivan from Virginia holds the record for the person most times struck by lightning - and living to tell the tale. Between 1942 and 1983, Roy has the dubious distinction of being struck by lightning seven times. He was known as the Human Lightning Rod.The first lightning strike in 1942 happened as he was working up in a lookout tower and the lighting bolt shot through his leg and knocked his big toenail off. In 1969 while he was driving along a mountain road a second strike burned off his eyebrows and knocked him unconscious. Another strike just a year later, while he was walking across his yard to get the mail, left his shoulder seared. He was standing in the office at the ranger station in 1972 when lightning set his hair on fire and Roy had to throw a bucket of water over his head to cool off. A year later, after his hair had grown back, a lightning bolt ripped through his hat and hit him on the head, setting his hair on fire again. It threw him out of his truck, knocked his left shoe off and seared his legs. A sixth strike hit him in 1976 while he was checking on a campsite, injuring his ankle. The last lightning bolt to hit Roy in 1977 happened while he was fishing. It sent him to hospital with chest and stomach burns. Roy Sullivan was never killed by lighting - he committed suicide while in his 70's in 1983 reportedly distraught over the loss of a woman.
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    • Profile picture of the author Roaddog
      Sullivan was never killed by lighting - he committed suicide while in his 70's in 1983 reportedly distraught over the loss of a woman.
      I'm going to make a poster out of that one.

      WOMEN...more dangerous than being hit by lightning...SEVEN times.

      A truism if I ever heard one.


      ...
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        Sal -

        That may be the one that was proposed and purchased at the cost of many millions - only to find it was not what they claimed. Didn't work and was scrapped.

        Don't know - but can't find anything online at least about a "lightning weapon" that isn't on a science fiction site or about the waste in buying the weapon above.

        The one I mentioned creates what we might call a force field but it isn't a deadly weapon - only a weapon meant to stop an enemy approach.
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  • Profile picture of the author LarryC
    Originally Posted by Michael Milken
    I didn't yell anything, I'm just calling out the pattern of lies told by conspiracy theorists to show how your group of people are misinformed. You all are quick to act as if a person is brainwashed for paying you all no attention, but completely forgetting about your 0% success rate when it comes to predicting things that will happen. >>

    That statement is close to meaningless, as you're just throwing out a statistic without any proof. First of all, what is a "conspiracy theorist" anyway? Anyone who questions the conventional media? If this is the case, many such conspiracies have turned out to be true. Btw, the majority of these issues don't deal with predictions, but about ongoing situations.

    To give just one example, not long ago you were labeled a paranoid conspiracy theorist if you said it was dangerous to consume fluoride. Now, suddenly mainstream researchers are backing this up. Dangers of fluoride
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Originally Posted by LarryC View Post

      Originally Posted by Michael Milken
      I didn't yell anything, I'm just calling out the pattern of lies told by conspiracy theorists to show how your group of people are misinformed. You all are quick to act as if a person is brainwashed for paying you all no attention, but completely forgetting about your 0% success rate when it comes to predicting things that will happen. >>

      That statement is close to meaningless, as you're just throwing out a statistic without any proof. First of all, what is a "conspiracy theorist" anyway? Anyone who questions the conventional media? If this is the case, many such conspiracies have turned out to be true. Btw, the majority of these issues don't deal with predictions, but about ongoing situations.

      To give just one example, not long ago you were labeled a paranoid conspiracy theorist if you said it was dangers to consume fluoride. Now, suddenly mainstream researchers are backing this up. Dangers of fluoride
      Something I've been opposed to for years.
      When I was a kid our well became contaminated from the leach field of a new home that was built above us on a hill.
      We had to get 'city' water which contained fluoride and other chemicals.
      My mother grew up on city water while my father had drank well water for the last (at that time) 25 years. Up to that point I had always drank well or spring water. Both my father and I would get terrible stomach aches if we drank the city water.
      Years later I learned about the fluoride they put in drinking water (not the same as natural fluoride) and have been opposed to it ever since.
      Thankfully I have a very good source of spring water near me and three 5 gallon water jugs I keep filled.
      When my youngest had her baby, the doctor gave her liquid fluoride to put in his formula:confused: Thankfully she listens to me sometimes and put it in the sink drain instead.
      Now the CDC has lowered the acceptable level of fluoride in drinking water (still to much) and has said not to give it to babies.
      Signature

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  • "In paranoid thinking a person believes he has detected a conspiracy--that
    is, a hidden (and malevolent) pattern in the behavior of friends, associates
    or governments--where in fact no such pattern exists. If there IS such a
    conspiracy, the subject may be profoundly anxious, but his thinking is not
    necessarily paranoid.

    A famous case involves James Forrestal, the first
    U.S. Secretary of Defense. At the end of World War II, Forrestal was
    convinced that Israeli secret agents were following him everywhere. His
    physicians, equally convinced of the absurdity of this idee fixe, diagnosed
    him as paranoid and confined him to an upper story of Walter Reed Army
    Hospital,
    from which he plunged to his death, partly because of inadequate
    supervision by hospital personnel, overly deferential to one of his exalted
    rank. Later it was discovered that Forrestal was indeed being followed by
    Israeli agents
    who were worried that he might reach a secret understanding
    with representatives of Arab nations. Forrestal had other problems, but
    having his valid perception labeled paranoid did not help his condition."

    -- Carl Sagan, "The Dragons of Eden: Speculations on the Evolution of Human
    Intelligence," (New York: Random House, 1977), p. 181.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by MoneyMagnetMagnate View Post

      "In paranoid thinking a person believes he has detected a conspiracy--that
      is, a hidden (and malevolent) pattern in the behavior of friends, associates
      or governments--where in fact no such pattern exists. If there IS such a
      conspiracy, the subject may be profoundly anxious, but his thinking is not
      necessarily paranoid.

      A famous case involves James Forrestal, the first
      U.S. Secretary of Defense. At the end of World War II, Forrestal was
      convinced that Israeli secret agents were following him everywhere. His
      physicians, equally convinced of the absurdity of this idee fixe, diagnosed
      him as paranoid and confined him to an upper story of Walter Reed Army
      Hospital,
      from which he plunged to his death, partly because of inadequate
      supervision by hospital personnel, overly deferential to one of his exalted
      rank. Later it was discovered that Forrestal was indeed being followed by
      Israeli agents
      who were worried that he might reach a secret understanding
      with representatives of Arab nations. Forrestal had other problems, but
      having his valid perception labeled paranoid did not help his condition."

      -- Carl Sagan, "The Dragons of Eden: Speculations on the Evolution of Human
      Intelligence," (New York: Random House, 1977), p. 181.
      OH, that is NOTHING! That is a little tiny DRIP! I can do you ONE BETTER!

      You may not even know about Ignaz Semmelweis he was effectively MURDERED in 1865! He was MURDERED by a guy that was sick of his lunacy AND, in murdering him, PROVED that semmelweis was NOT a lunatic at all. In 1847, he came up with a CRAZY theory and, based on that, made a simple request. People disliked that, and refused to honor his request. You would think the decline in mortality where he worked might have had an effect, but it didn't. The committed him to a mental asylum in 1865. He was beaten by guards and died of the SAME diseases that it seems like he ALONE knew how to prevent through a SIMPLE act! IRONICALLY, in 1865, a guy by the name of Louis Pasteur PROVED that Semmelweis was 100% RIGHT!

      MILLIONS,, possibly more, people DIED or got VERY sick because for over 18 YEARS the medical community REFUSED to do a simple act, and would rather just call Semmelweis a lunatic! So WHAT was the simple act? WASH YOUR HANDS, preferrably in a solution like a chlorine solution!

      But YEAH, it is incredible. So the guy wanted to make sure he wasn't followed. So a guy had an idea that seemed to reduce mortality to practically 0% when the standard was over 30%. WHY lock them up?

      One thing I HATE about psychiatry is that it requires that the psychiatrist be ALL KNOWING, and that the problem is 100% mental. Since NEITHER is EVER 100% the case, maybe they should be given LESS ability to do ANY such thing. In miracle on 34th street, the guy was nice and honest, and only really had the "delusions" once a year. It was 100% friendly. Did he deserve to be locked up, even if he weren't santa?

      Steve
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  • Your Corn will thank you...and Monsanto will thank you...
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      I've known about Monsanto and had concerns about them for years - just like Sal and others.

      My point is I don't think one huge conglomerate should stop the potential that might be available in the future to modify crops to multiply the yield.

      When rotation of crops was first introduced it was called crazy and stupid - but now it's commonplace farming. I think there is potential in careful, thoroughly tested development of using genetics in food production. I don't think Monsanto got it right nor do I think they should be allowed to do what they've done.

      Monsanto's motivation is the profit (and avoiding prosecution or lawsuits). I think their methods are disgusting and questionable but that doesn't mean all future methods of genetically altered plants will be wrong.

      We have been cross-breeding livestock and plants and using methods like root grafting to change color or flowers in plants for many years. I see genetic alterations (done properly through science) as another potential move forward in the future.

      The problem in our society is the changes are always connected to higher profits. It's why Monsnto has special seeds and why livestock were fed dangerous food additives to shorten the time to market. When the motivation is only profit for a company or business - results will be unreliable and potentially dangerous.
      Signature
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      Saving one dog will not save the world....but will forever change the world for one dog.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        I've known about Monsanto and had concerns about them for years - just like Sal and others.

        My point is I don't think one huge conglomerate should stop the potential that might be available in the future to modify crops to multiply the yield.

        When rotation of crops was first introduced it was called crazy and stupid - but now it's commonplace farming. I think there is potential in careful, thoroughly tested development of using genetics in food production. I don't think Monsanto got it right nor do I think they should be allowed to do what they've done.

        Monsanto's motivation is the profit (and avoiding prosecution or lawsuits). I think their methods are disgusting and questionable but that doesn't mean all future methods of genetically altered plants will be wrong.

        We have been cross-breeding livestock and plants and using methods like root grafting to change color or flowers in plants for many years. I see genetic alterations (done properly through science) as another potential move forward in the future.

        The problem in our society is the changes are always connected to higher profits. It's why Monsnto has special seeds and why livestock were fed dangerous food additives to shorten the time to market. When the motivation is only profit for a company or business - results will be unreliable and potentially dangerous.
        Rotating crops merely allocates minerals and some other things better so the plants can use things better. I don't think grafting changes the genetics at all. It is probably similar to rotation in effect.

        As for genetics? YIKES! The monsanto corn sounds like a parasite that will OBLITERATE normal corn. If that is the case, they should take those guys, and that famous guy that created the africanized honey bee, and the guy that created that tryptophan and a few of the bee breeders projects bees, and lock them up for life, which shouldn't be very long(pun not intended). NONE of them seemed to care for people.

        Steve
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      • Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        I've known about Monsanto and had concerns about them for years - just like Sal and others.

        My point is I don't think one huge conglomerate should stop the potential that might be available in the future to modify crops to multiply the yield.

        When rotation of crops was first introduced it was called crazy and stupid - but now it's commonplace farming. I think there is potential in careful, thoroughly tested development of using genetics in food production. I don't think Monsanto got it right nor do I think they should be allowed to do what they've done.

        Monsanto's motivation is the profit (and avoiding prosecution or lawsuits). I think their methods are disgusting and questionable but that doesn't mean all future methods of genetically altered plants will be wrong.

        We have been cross-breeding livestock and plants and using methods like root grafting to change color or flowers in plants for many years. I see genetic alterations (done properly through science) as another potential move forward in the future.

        The problem in our society is the changes are always connected to higher profits. It's why Monsnto has special seeds and why livestock were fed dangerous food additives to shorten the time to market. When the motivation is only profit for a company or business - results will be unreliable and potentially dangerous.
        Though I agree with your good intentions, I think we both agree Monsanto will practically stop at nothing to ensure THEY are the only ones to advance...it's kind of like SEED SOPA - (insert clever acronym here)
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      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        I've known about Monsanto and had concerns about them for years - just like Sal and others.

        My point is I don't think one huge conglomerate should stop the potential that might be available in the future to modify crops to multiply the yield.

        When rotation of crops was first introduced it was called crazy and stupid - but now it's commonplace farming. I think there is potential in careful, thoroughly tested development of using genetics in food production. I don't think Monsanto got it right nor do I think they should be allowed to do what they've done.

        Monsanto's motivation is the profit (and avoiding prosecution or lawsuits). I think their methods are disgusting and questionable but that doesn't mean all future methods of genetically altered plants will be wrong.

        We have been cross-breeding livestock and plants and using methods like root grafting to change color or flowers in plants for many years. I see genetic alterations (done properly through science) as another potential move forward in the future.

        The problem in our society is the changes are always connected to higher profits. It's why Monsnto has special seeds and why livestock were fed dangerous food additives to shorten the time to market. When the motivation is only profit for a company or business - results will be unreliable and potentially dangerous.
        Actually Kay, crop rotation is almost as old as farming itself.
        It has been practiced since the Roman days in that part of Europe and the 800's in other parts of Europe. It has been used in Asia since before Christ.
        Monsantos GMO's where pushed on farmers with the lie, oops promise, of higher yields and less cost.
        As you know breeding, cross pollination, and grafting only work within a species. In other words you will never be able to graft a strawberry plant onto a grape rootstock. So you are not genetically changing the plant or animal, just trying to bring out the traits that are already in the DNA.
        The problem with genetically modified foods is what the food is modified to do carries over to the consumer.
        With the track record of Monsanto and our FDA and Dept. of Ag., I don't see GMO's ever having a chance once more consumers become aware of their dangers.
        I can't imagine ever trusting any of those three again and I don't think anybody else who has looked into what they do could either.
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      • Profile picture of the author HeySal
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        I've known about Monsanto and had concerns about them for years - just like Sal and others.

        My point is I don't think one huge conglomerate should stop the potential that might be available in the future to modify crops to multiply the yield.

        When rotation of crops was first introduced it was called crazy and stupid - but now it's commonplace farming. I think there is potential in careful, thoroughly tested development of using genetics in food production. I don't think Monsanto got it right nor do I think they should be allowed to do what they've done.

        Monsanto's motivation is the profit (and avoiding prosecution or lawsuits). I think their methods are disgusting and questionable but that doesn't mean all future methods of genetically altered plants will be wrong.

        We have been cross-breeding livestock and plants and using methods like root grafting to change color or flowers in plants for many years. I see genetic alterations (done properly through science) as another potential move forward in the future.

        The problem in our society is the changes are always connected to higher profits. It's why Monsnto has special seeds and why livestock were fed dangerous food additives to shorten the time to market. When the motivation is only profit for a company or business - results will be unreliable and potentially dangerous.
        Kay - the only thing that GMO food is good for is use as a population control device. It does NOT increase yields - that is one of the lies. It is extremely dangerous to eat and is creating "super weeds" and other environmental damages that are not going to be so easily repaired. Wild animals are dying from eating the crops. The round up ready has a toxin in it that replicates itself in your gut flora so people who eat the stuff are walking pesticide factories.

        There is not ONE thing that has been said about that crap that was truth. Monsanto officials have infiltrated the FDA and the gov and they are getting away, very literally, with murder. I'm sorry - the only up side to frankenfood that I can find is that it helps sterilize women and I am for draconian measures in birth control. It's the one absolutely fascist aspect of my thinking.

        I'm not sure if my last post was deleted or if I just didn't see it this time around so I'll just say this:

        Michael - 30 years ago I was called a "nut case", "paranoid", "tinfoil devotee", etc because I said the FED was a bank. Duhhhh. Sorry - there are whole books of "conspiracy theories" that have panned out to be truth. I was also called a "nut case" when, in April of 2008, I said the economy was going to tank. Put that along with fluoride and MONSANTO - and that's for home runs for me in just those 4 examples.

        As far as US conspiracy theories now, none are more scandalous than the theories about concentration camps being readied in the states - I can't prove or disprove that one - but they do exist. We put Japanese American citizens in them during WWII - while most of us (probably all of us) are not old enough to remember that, but we had running camps right here in the states, and if you were a Japanese immigrant, legal didn't cut it - they locked you up. You could tour the ones at Hart Mountain in WY up til a few years back. Not sure if you can now because I haven't been there in a decade.
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        Sal
        When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
        Beyond the Path

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        • Profile picture of the author ThomM
          As far as US conspiracy theories now, none are more scandalous than the theories about concentration camps being readied in the states - I can't prove or disprove that one - but they do exist. We put Japanese American citizens in them during WWII - while most of us (probably all of us) are not old enough to remember that, but we had running camps right here in the states, and if you were a Japanese immigrant, legal didn't cut it - they locked you up. You could tour the ones at Hart Mountain in WY up til a few years back. Not sure if you can now because I haven't been there in a decade.
          Don't forget the German-Americans who where also put in camps
          Signature

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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

            Don't forget the German-Americans who where also put in camps
            SERIOUSLY? I heard you could be locked up for speaking German, but didn't know known Germans were simply locked up. My German great grandmother came here, BEFORE WWII and probably before WWI , and spoke german at home all the time. I never heard about her getting locked up, not that I heard ANY war stories from them.

            My Japanese aunt came here AFTER WWII, so she didn't have to deal with it.

            Steve
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  • Catch-22...
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    I've often almost joked, that it is interesting that you are supposedly innocent until proven guilty. That is often not true. You have to FIGHT to disprove a lot that you shouldn't have to.

    Chemicals should be GUILTY until proven innocent, but often AREN'T! Further, there are loopholes that allow FOOD to be changed even MORE.

    This potential has been known a LONG tme, and is why it is called ****FOOD**** and ***DRUG*** Administration. I LIKE corn, and don't want to see it disappear. 8-(

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      I've often almost joked, that it is interesting that you are supposedly innocent until proven guilty. That is often not true. You have to FIGHT to disprove a lot that you shouldn't have to.

      Chemicals should be GUILTY until proven innocent, but often AREN'T! Further, there are loopholes that allow FOOD to be changed even MORE.

      This potential has been known a LONG tme, and is why it is called ****FOOD**** and ***DRUG*** Administration. I LIKE corn, and don't want to see it disappear. 8-(

      Steve
      If Monsanto has it's way (like it is) there will always be plenty of corn.
      Of course it will need a health warning label.
      Finding corn that is still just corn is where the problem is now, but Monsanto is working on eliminating that, so that won't be a problem soon.
      Signature

      Life: Nature's way of keeping meat fresh
      Getting old ain't for sissy's
      As you are I was, as I am you will be
      You can't fix stupid, but you can always out smart it.

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  • No one wants anyone's Corn Flakes to get soggy, but using corn for some products seems unnecessary, Education - A Zillions Uses for Corn! when other things could be substituted or utilized with no alternate affects on the product. (Aluminum? Spark Plugs?)

    Corn producers would like to see the price go up, (naturally)...but they are largely subsidized to keep the costs of corn products low...good for them...bad for us.

    I'm not saying I want the price of corn to rise...quite the opposite. It would be nice if they just used the "eating" parts for FOOD products, as intended...and the waste by-products for the rest of a lot of the other stuff. (imho)
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  • Profile picture of the author Roaddog
    Monsanto...bringers of DDT and Agent Orange...
    please make me some corn...lol
    They are the poster boys for corporate arrogance.

    Bechtel corp. trying to 'own' the rain in Bolivia...
    Patenting genes ....
    mankind's ego never ends...
    or does it?


    Conspiracy theories are Lizard people and the Illuminati...etc.

    The only real thing to fear is greed and big money

    What corporations are doing is no theory.

    Truth is always stranger than fiction...
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  • Thom - Just because you BELIEVE her...don't mean she ain't a NUT! :rolleyes::p
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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by MoneyMagnetMagnate View Post

      Thom - Just because you BELIEVE her...don't mean she ain't a NUT! :rolleyes::p
      Um...well...yeah, but I am an educated nut that has made a life long project of keeping track of this stuff........so being a whack job hasn't anything to do with the info. It does make it somewhat strange to be around me a lot, though.
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      Sal
      When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
      Beyond the Path

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  • ---------Just Kidding!---------:p









    Sponsored by
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  • Profile picture of the author LeeLee
    I apologize to the OP for going off topic here but the topic did morph in so many different directions. I hope you don't mind me following up.

    Colonial era - most women worked in the home producing many of the family's needs.

    19th century industrial revolution - goods formerly produced at home being produced in factories - more money was needed to buy such goods - women increasingly enter the workforce to earn that money.

    Middle class women - acceptable and eventually expected for a single woman to work for money but she would leave outside work once married.

    Immigrant women on the other hand had to work for money and saw work as a permanent situation.

    Women worked primarily as domestics and in soft manufacturing (cloth versus steel) though there were some other kinds of jobs available.

    Late 19th - early 20th century - even more women and children working outside the home because their men cannot earn enough wages in the increasingly money driven society.

    Domestic work decreased as convenience saving machines, like washing machines, were manufactured. More importantly as non-domestic work increased so did wages. People who employed domestics could not keep up with the wage increase.

    Women increasingly moved into clerical positions that were a result of the money economy and more complex business models. And while the work was cleaner it was still often piece work. All workers were losing their status as craftsmen as machines and corporations grew.

    During WWI, there was an increase in hard manufacturing and a really big demand. Women were recruited to take up this slack, BUT this did not mean there were more women in the workforce. What it did mean is less women were working in domestic, soft manufacturing and agriculture. It was the same women just different work. The only increases in women in the workforce was as a steady percentage of increase of population. The demand for WWI manufacturing was from Europe. The US didn't enter the war until 1917 so it wasn't like we pulled in women to replace men.

    The Depression years, nearly 1/4 of American women were employed for money but 9 out of 10 were still clerks and factory workers and service/domestic. Only 1 in 10 was a professional and of professionals, 75% were teachers and nurses.

    WWII and Rosie the Riveter. Once again there were women already working who moved into the higher paid jobs of hard manufacturing that became available during wartime. But this time they were replacing men who had gone to war and an increase in demand. So more women came from the home into the paid workplace.

    Women were expected to vacate these jobs when the men returned and many did. Many returned to homemaking and post war prosperity made it possible for one wage earner to comfortably support a family, especially if that wage earner was male.

    So while women were producing the baby boom generation, many of them reared children at home. But the genie was already out of the bottle. The baby boom generation received more education and the sexual revolution made sure women got a bigger piece of the schooling pie than they had previously. At the same time, some of their mothers who had to remain in the moneyed workforce also sought advanced education.

    So while women made up 25% of the total workforce in the early part of the century, they made up nearly 30% by 1950 and about 47% now. In 1950, 34% of all US women worked for money. In 1970, 43% and in 1990, 57%. As of 2000, that number was just over 60%.

    To see the contrast with men, 1950 - 86%, 1970 - 80%, 1990 - 76%. And in 2000 74%. So while there has been a decrease in the % of men employed, it is not large enough to account for the increase in women.

    The only plausible answer I can see how so many women were absorbed into the workforce has to be growth. Obviously the reasons so many more women are in the workforce is another discussion. Briefly the breakdown of the nuclear family with more women as heads of households and of course birth control.

    So while I agree with you Steve that women were always there, the numbers do say there was a steep increase in the percentage of working outside the home women between 1950 and 2000. My off the top of my head number of double was incorrect over a 20 year span but not over a 50 year span. The difference in my perception and the real span of time is probably do to a myopic view from seeing it day to day versus looking at the whole like I did this afternoon.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    LEELEE!

    You said something very interesting. Basically, the number of women working didn't increase AT ALL!!!!!!! 19th century revolution, on you have a depulication of thought there.

    Women decided to work, so work couldn't get done, and it was purchased from companies that SURPRISE, had WOMEN working to fulfill those needs! It;s almost like Mrs. Fields. She is less able to cook cookies for her family, but cooks cookies for others.

    AND, did you know that banks had "fainting couches", and were artistic because of WOMEN being there? They may well have hired WOMEN for planning that!

    In short, women jaining the workforce created a need because they WERE needed! That continues TO THIS DAY! Let's say that a couple has a child. If they aren't there to watch the child, they have to hire someone ELSE. Even taxes increase the need for an accountant, and a lot of THEM are women. Of course, TAXES add to inflation and reduce income, so the need to work is further increased.

    OH, and when I said that maybe 60% of women work, I meant in TOTAL, not as part of the workforce. I imagine women are probably roughly about 50% of the workforce. STILL, some don't want to and/or don't have to work.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author stufftheme
    i think every one should handle differently because girls are so complex to understand. Every girl is different from other and they require different type of care and behaviour.
    it's different for every body
    depends on your love one
    one may be caring other may be demanding
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  • Profile picture of the author LeeLee
    Total percent of women working 60%. Percentage of women in total workforce 47%.

    Yup, I see what you are saying.

    While doing some digging earlier, I found it interesting that during the WWI era when women were needed in the factories because of increased production, the were offered perks like onsite child care. I had never heard of that before. Thought it was a more recent phenomenon. Also, they had flex hours and job sharing.

    As for fainting couches I remember them as a kid. Every rest room had a couch where a woman could lie down if she needed to. I'm not sure when they disappeared.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by LeeLee View Post

      Total percent of women working 60%. Percentage of women in total workforce 47%.

      Yup, I see what you are saying.

      While doing some digging earlier, I found it interesting that during the WWI era when women were needed in the factories because of increased production, the were offered perks like onsite child care. I had never heard of that before. Thought it was a more recent phenomenon. Also, they had flex hours and job sharing.

      As for fainting couches I remember them as a kid. Every rest room had a couch where a woman could lie down if she needed to. I'm not sure when they disappeared.
      I meant up to 60%, as maybe an upper limit.

      Yeah, the women couldn't work if they didn't have childcare. ESPECIALLY not THEN, with the men OUT, and a society that cared more about the kids.

      As for the couches, they probably went out sometime in the 60s after they weren't so commonly needed. But the REST of the decor, etc... kind of stayed. Maybe that is why hotels and the like are often so fancy. The origin of a LOT of things fades over time, but women played their part in it.

      Steve
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  • Oh, great...the MEN'S bathroom is lucky if it has urinal with a sign above it that says "Don't Eat the Big White Mint"!

    The WOMEN'S bathrooms are "luxuriously appointed" with "fainting couches" (which went out with whalebone corsets and "the vapors") -

    No WONDER you go in groups! It's like an Expedition going back in time!

    jk ladies...don't beat me up :rolleyes:
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  • Profile picture of the author LarryC
    For anybody who happens to be reading this now -a little after 9 pm EST -there's a live online radio show that's going to talk about this "martial law" bill. It's an interview show -I believe they're going to be talking to an ex-CIA agent. If you miss it, this site has shows almost every night on many interesting topics.

    Project Nsearch - Awakening the World with Truth and Creating a Better Future.
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    Content Writing, Ghostwriting, eBooks, editing, research.
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  • Profile picture of the author jossk
    When I was a teenager and there was a bad hurricane half of the state in lived under martial law for a few months. The government took over and the police supported them having national guard on ever street corner. You had to be indoors at a certain time or you would be arrested. It wasn't like in the movies but it was definitely crazy. You couldn't drive down a street unless you belonged there and you had the army checkpoints everywhere.
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