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Banned 12 years ago

I'm sick of gas & ICE cars, bring on the full blown electric cars & stop making them look like giant eggs (Prius).

I wouldn't care If they gave gas away for free, it's time to move on with better technology for transportation & energy storage.

Natural gas is a band-aid, IMO.

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QuickSurf

12 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

I'm sick of gas & ICE cars, bring on the full blown electric cars & stop making them look like giant eggs (Prius).

I wouldn't care If they gave gas away for free, it's time to move on with better technology for transportation & energy storage.

Natural gas is a band-aid, IMO.

Blahhh.. sorry I race, and drive our cars and trucks hard. Something electric will never replace, and we're a loooong time off from electric cars having any decent range, have fun driving on an extended trip or even for a couple hours before having to recharge lol. I'm the type of guy that can just listen to his modded truck exhaust note gurgle and burble with that lovely V8. Or full bore at road course racing etc. But that' just me, I'm a car/truck/boat guy... can't imagine an electric center console lol

.

Where the big 3 are missing out is not offering diesel versions that are offered overseas in the same vehicles or in platform sharing. And your still limited by even foreign makes diesel offerings.

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yukon

Banned 12 years ago

Originally Posted by QuickSurf

Blahhh.. sorry I race, and drive our cars and trucks hard. Something electric will never replace, and we're a loooong time off from electric cars having any decent range, have fun driving on an extended trip or even for a couple hours before having to recharge lol. I'm the type of guy that can just listen to his modded truck exhaust note gurgle and burble with that lovely V8. Or full bore at road course racing etc. But that' just me, I'm a car/truck/boat guy... can't imagine an electric center console lol

.

Where the big 3 are missing out is not offering diesel versions that are offered overseas in the same vehicles or in platform sharing. And your still limited by even foreign makes diesel offerings.

That was my point, stop wasting time with outdated ICE & move forward with electric cars. The hold back is energy storage (batteries) & really with as much effort that's been invested into the ICE surely someone will make a breakthrough in energy storage for electricity.

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

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ThomM

12 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

That was my point, stop wasting time with outdated ICE & move forward with electric cars. The hold back is energy storage (batteries) & really with as much effort that's been invested into the ICE surely someone will make a breakthrough in energy storage for electricity.

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

Here's an old video of an electric motorcycle.

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

I agree with Pickens on converting buses and big rigs that travel cross country to natural gas.
For consumers electric makes sense.
I also agree with Kurt on stopping the subsidies to the oil companies and letting the market set the prices. Prices at the pump would rise, but I think it is the smart thing to do.

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MoneyMagnetMagnate

12 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

I'm sick of gas & ICE cars, bring on the full blown electric cars & stop making them look like giant eggs (Prius).

I wouldn't care If they gave gas away for free, it's time to move on with better technology for transportation & energy storage.

Natural gas is a band-aid, IMO.

But Natural gas won't hurt as much...when you pull it off! :rolleyes:

As for the Prius - I agree, my Niece drives one...(OK, til it lost HOV perks)

You sound like a more of a Fisker Karma candidate...

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MoneyMagnetMagnate

12 years ago

If we had just let Diesel and Daimler run the damn engines on vegetable and peanut oil - like they were designed from the get go...

Instead of using "gasoline", which was a useless burned off by-product of oil production way back when...

The world would be a LOT cleaner...and smell like french fries all the time :rolleyes:

But then...McDonald's would be even MORE powerful than it already is!

Plus, imagine how that would have shifted agrarian economy...

But - I guess it could be worse...

At least we aren't running the damn things on Whale Oil!

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Kurt

12 years ago

The top Tesla battery has a range of 300 miles:
Model S Features | Tesla Motors

As far as stopping to recharge, we do what Isreal and Norway(?) are already doing, and that's a battery swap station. It's like a car wash, except the station automatically takes out a used battery and replaces it with a charged battery. And, it takes less time to swap the batteries than it does to fill a tank with gas.

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

Plus, you have the option of charging it at home. IMO, it's much easier to plug in a car at home than driving to a gas station and then paying and filling up. Invest in a few solar panels and it's "free gas" after the initial investment.

Start with fleets, like USPS and other delivery fleets. They rarely drive more than 50 miles on their routes and return "home" at the end of the day. Have places like Walmart with huge roof space install solar panels, then have special parking places where people can plug in and get a quick 10 mile charge while they're shopping, and charge them a quarter (for example).

Then let the people that want to use gas pay for the military spending US taxpayers spend to supplement Big Oil to protect their interests overseas, which will make the free market price of gas about $7 per gallon, at present market rates.

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QuickSurf

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Kurt

The top Tesla battery has a range of 300 miles:
Model S Features | Tesla Motors

As far as stopping to recharge, we do what Isreal and Norway(?) are already doing, and that's a battery swap station. It's like a car wash, except the station automatically takes out a used battery and replaces it with a charged battery. And, it takes less time to swap the batteries than it does to fill a tank with gas.

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

Plus, you have the option of charging it at home. IMO, it's much easier to plug in a car at home than driving to a gas station and then paying and filling up. Invest in a few solar panels and it's "free gas" after the initial investment.

Except that battery range is bs, est "55 mph" .... don't know what highways some people drive on but every highway I've been on you'll get passed still even if doing 75+. That's like saying my truck can get 30 mpg... if I drive at 40 mph cruising down A1A along the beach lol. Do 55 mph on i-95 and you'll get rammed off the road by a semi lol. Once you actually start driving at highway speeds, range drops like a rock on electric vehicles, and the constant varying draw wouldn't let it reach that range in the city either. Like the Leaf, plenty of owners have complained about how they get no where near decent range and many worry about having enough left to get home, b/c you have to drive like a slow poke with an egg under your foot to actually get ranges Nissan estimated.... which isn't representative of real word city/highway driving. Any road trips and hope you have a gasser around lol. I mean if I wanted to hit up Miami for dinner, 30-40 miles each way, leaf would be lucky to make it home even though you can theoretically get "100" miles out of a charge.

I've actually driven the Tesla Roadster when out in Cali when they had a test day at an event, I was racing at California Speedway. Quick, but plenty of other sports cars that are way quicker, the other thing is from a roll or higher speeds it's acceleration falls flat on its face vs down low. That's the one huge thing holding back electric power, transmission, b/c of the torque from 0 rpm and way it's delivered there's no trans around to handle it reliably or geared good hence why their limited in speed. Car did nothing for me, whole point of driving hard is the feeling of the car and character, in which it just felt like a fast golfcart lol, I need the sweet sound of a gasser lol.

Problem with the battery swaps, is all manufacturers would have to agree on a 1 size fit's all battery and location (which won't happen), otherwise you'd have to have all different bays for the swaps, and too even get to the point where it would make sense vs gas stations is so far in the future. Just think of how long it would take to have a network like gas stations are today, decades and decades. The countries that do have them now, only a handful, it's not like their on every corner.

I just think we are sooooooo far off from having electric vehicles becoming a mainstay here in the states, unless your doing short city driving every day. Plus I don't want an electric center console for my boat hahaha.

No problem with them working and developing the tech, but, especially the Big 3, should have been more diversified in offering diesel variants here to help with mpg and cafe expectations. Really the only affordable one for the avg person is the Jetta... Audi/BMW/Benz etc all make some awesome diesel models here but priced way out of the avg persons $.

Hybrids make way more sense now, as at least you have the gas motor kicking in, and your not stuck driving a small chit mobile for the most part lol as their based on the normal gas variant.

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Kurt

12 years ago

Originally Posted by QuickSurf

Except that battery range is bs, est "55 mph" .... don't know what highways some people drive on but every highway I've been on you'll get passed still even if doing 75+. That's like saying my truck can get 30 mpg... if I drive at 40 mph cruising down A1A along the beach lol. Do 55 mph on i-95 and you'll get rammed off the road by a semi lol. Once you actually start driving at highway speeds, range drops like a rock on electric vehicles, and the constant varying draw wouldn't let it reach that range in the city either. Like the Leaf, plenty of owners have complained about how they get no where near decent range and many worry about having enough left to get home, b/c you have to drive like a slow poke with an egg under your foot to actually get ranges Nissan estimated.... which isn't representative of real word city/highway driving. Any road trips and hope you have a gasser around lol. I mean if I wanted to hit up Miami for dinner, 30-40 miles each way, leaf would be lucky to make it home even though you can theoretically get "100" miles out of a charge.

And what percentage of trips are road trips?

And, while I agree with your comments, these numbers are just the start. I think there's a good case to be made that these numbers can and will be improved upon.

I've actually driven the Tesla Roadster when out in Cali when they had a test day at an event, I was racing at California Speedway. Quick, but plenty of other sports cars that are way quicker, the other thing is from a roll or higher speeds it's acceleration falls flat on its face vs down low.

Speaking of "real world" driving...Accelerating and driving faster than the Tesla limits will likely get you reckless driving tickets is just about every jurisdiction in the US.

That's the one huge thing holding back electric power, transmission, b/c of the torque from 0 rpm and way it's delivered there's no trans around to handle it reliably or geared good hence why their limited in speed. Car did nothing for me, whole point of driving hard is the feeling of the car and character, in which it just felt like a fast golfcart lol, I need the sweet sound of a gasser lol.

Then pay for it. I'm tired of spending my tax money supporting gas guzzling cars. And this doesn't count the loss of lives and limbs fighting unnecessary wars in the Middle East just to protect Big Oil. Lots of people paying a big price for your wish to drive a gas powered car.

Plus, pay for the lung disease and other health factors associated with car emissions. If you want to pollute my air, pay for it.

And you forgot to mention all the other parts an electric car doesn't need...No muffler, no cooling system, no exhaust system, no carb, etc. Just think of all the money saved long term from having parts fail.

Problem with the battery swaps, is all manufacturers would have to agree on a 1 size fit's all battery and location (which won't happen), otherwise you'd have to have all different bays for the swaps, and too even get to the point where it would make sense vs gas stations is so far in the future.

It's a simple engineering design. Just like all flashlights require certain sizes and shapes, cars can also have different sizes and shapes for batteries.

The batteries only need a few things to be standard and it's possible 2-3-4 different standards could be acceptable. Eventually the market will decide the format, just as it did for VHS vs. Beta.

Just think of how long it would take to have a network like gas stations are today, decades and decades.

Just think of how much gas will cost in a few decades. It doesn't take a lot of IQ to realize that oil is getting harder to find and produce and that India and China will want to increase their consumption in the near future.

More consumption and less oil = much higher prices in the future.

The countries that do have them now, only a handful, it's not like their on every corner.

Just like gas stations 100 years ago. Have to start some where. However, almost every American home does have electricity, which reduces the need to have battery swap centers on every corner like with gas stations.

Same with natural gas. Any home with natural gas can pretty easily be converted to a home fueling station.

I just think we are sooooooo far off from having electric vehicles becoming a mainstay here in the states, unless your doing short city driving every day. Plus I don't want an electric center console for my boat hahaha.

Most people do drive "short city drives" every day, as well as fleets also.

No problem with them working and developing the tech, but, especially the Big 3, should have been more diversified in offering diesel variants here to help with mpg and cafe expectations.

If a variant is bio diesel, how much farm land should we quit farming (AKA make food) in order to make fuel?

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Dave Patterson

12 years ago

In 1985 I bought a brand new Pontiac Sunbird. I drove that car from NH to AL and back (just under 1400 miles) and averaged 50mpg.

NINETEEN EIGHTY-FIVE!

And that wasn't even the highest mileage car on the road at that time. There were MANY models that would average 35 to 45+ mpg.

What happened?

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Dave Patterson

12 years ago

In 1985 I bought a brand new Pontiac Sunbird. I drove that car from NH to AL and back (just under 1400 miles) and averaged 50mpg.

NINETEEN EIGHTY-FIVE!

And that wasn't even the highest mileage car on the road at that time. There were MANY models that would average 35 to 45+ mpg.

What happened?

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Kurt

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Dave Patterson

In 1985 I bought a brand new Pontiac Sunbird. I drove that car from NH to AL and back (just under 1400 miles) and averaged 50mpg.

NINETEEN EIGHTY-FIVE!

And that wasn't even the highest mileage car on the road at that time. There were MANY models that would average 35 to 45+ mpg.

What happened?

What happened was the loosening of mileage standards over the years.

If we improve the milage of cars, then gas prices can be increased, but the cost of driving will remain the same.

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payment proof

12 years ago

I'd love to see gas for $1 a gallon!!

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Patrician

12 years ago

Oh, man. Gas is $4.35 Independent to $4.55 Brand today for premium.

Maybe Iran and their little (big) tantrum will push us where we need to go - to ANY ALTERNATIVE to gas from the middle east.

I bet it would not only cut down on emissions but on war as well.

Its a Twofer.

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Kurt

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Patrician

Oh, man. Gas is $4.35 Independent to $4.55 Brand today for premium.

Maybe Iran and their little (big) tantrum will push us where we need to go - to ANY ALTERNATIVE to gas from the middle east.

I bet it would not only cut down on emissions but on war as well.

Its a Twofer.

It's actually a Three-fer.

It was also cut down on our biggest trade imbalance...We send about $1 billion a day over seas for oil. Walmart and good from China aren't our biggest cause of sending US dollars overseas, it's oil.

We also spend about $1 billion a day paying the military to defend Big Oil's interests in the Middle East.

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MoneyMagnetMagnate

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Kurt

It's actually a Three-fer.

It was also cut down on our biggest trade imbalance...We send about $1 billion a day over seas for oil. Walmart and good from China aren't our biggest cause of sending US dollars overseas, it's oil.

We also spend about $1 billion a day paying the military to defend Big Oil's interests in the Middle East.

But it is also interesting to note:
NEW YORK (AP) - For the first time, the top export of the United States, the world's biggest gas guzzler, is -- wait for it -- fuel. - Gas, other fuels are top U.S. export

And another story:
Energy Independence is Dead And You'll Never Hear "Drill Baby Drill" Again : TreeHugger

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dirtmcgirt00

12 years ago

I think delivery services, lawn care companies, ect will be the first to enter in this market - local service companies that invest in these for businesses get huge discounts on taxes when purchasing natural gas vehicles.

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Dave Patterson

12 years ago

Originally Posted by dirtmcgirt00

I think delivery services, lawn care companies, ect will be the first to enter in this market - local service companies that invest in these for businesses get huge discounts on taxes when purchasing natural gas vehicles.

Schwan Foods home delivery trucks have been running on propane for 20+ years in the lower 48...

I worked for them for a while in the late 80's and except a little extra rattling sound in the engine I had no problems with them. Plenty of power...

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Kurt

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Dave Patterson

Schwan Foods home delivery trucks have been running on propane for 20+ years in the lower 48...

I worked for them for a while in the late 80's and except a little extra rattling sound in the engine I had no problems with them. Plenty of power...

In the early 80's, I drove some old Checker cabs that were converted to propane. That was about 30 years ago. They did "ping" a little bit, but that was the only difference. IMO, if it's good enough for a taxi, it's good enough for regular cars.

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yukon

Banned 12 years ago

I think one of the biggest fears of going all electric with cars is, look at the amount of parts on an ICE that would be obsolete with an all electric car. Going all electric would destroy HUGE automotive markets all at the same time, OEM & aftermarket ICE parts manufactures, distributors, dealerships, etc... It would destroy an entire chain of business that have been around for decades.

Obviously switching over to electric wouldn't happen overnight, just saying it would hit a lot of business owners in their pockets. I imagine a lot of those ICE parts manufactures would end up bankrupt simply because retooling a factory cost a lot of money & usually takes years to complete.

Oil is all about money, always has been, always will be as long as everyone keeps looking up to the big auto manufactures waiting for something to happen.

No way would I ever believe that some of the brightest engineers in automotive history can't come up with batteries that are 100's of times more efficient than what's on the market today in 2012.

I guess in the end it will take some small DIY guys/gals to step up & make things happen for electric cars.

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MoneyMagnetMagnate

12 years ago

There has been the story (or myth, depending on how you view it) of the guy who made a 100mpg carburetor, and and was shut down by the Big 3, and Oil -

If we need those types of devices...we need them now -

And yeah, I remember a lead-foot friend of mine with a 90's Geo Metro he drove the heck out of, and it still got 45-50mpg...

There are aftermarket alternatives galore, (hydrogen, atomizers, etc.) but very few seem to be addressing a Mass Market yet - only DIY...

The DIY guys have been driving on batteries and hydrogen for years...but it always seems to be discounted as impractical, or dangerous...

It reminds me of Edison electrocuting an Elephant to discredit Tesla and AC current as impractical, or dangerous - when Edison was touting DC as "the only safe electrical transmission"...when in reality AC was more practical by far...

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MoneyMagnetMagnate

12 years ago

Also, putting regulation back on the oil futures market would stop the roller coaster of speculation, which was removed by Phil Gramm and his Texas oil cronies back during the Clinton administration and needs to be controlled.

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sloanjim

12 years ago

big oil won't go without a fight!

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Kurt 12 years ago

Originally Posted by sloanjim

big oil won't go without a fight!

You're correct...But give GE a chance to fight them and they will. There's more than one greedy corporation out there.
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sloanjim

12 years ago

True or Urban myth?

There has been the story (or myth, depending on how you view it) of the guy who made a 100mpg carburetor, and and was shut down by the Big 3, and Oil -

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MoneyMagnetMagnate

12 years ago

Originally Posted by sloanjim

True or Urban myth?

There has been the story (or myth, depending on how you view it) of the guy who made a 100mpg carburetor, and and was shut down by the Big 3, and Oil -

...even my own Father vehemently defends the story of the man in his own neighborhood as a boy who invented one..."I saw it happen", although he will also admit if you press him for information - he really knows nothing about auto mechanics -

Even my own mechanic (and mentor) of many years, who I trusted my classics with, had a story (and I'll tend to believe his)

Oh, you can speak to many people, who talk about it or say they have seen it happen...

But then - you can find a lot of people who have seen Bigfoot too. :rolleyes:

"The Truth is Out There" - X Files

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Kay King

12 years ago

I agree that I'm tired of tax dollars supporting gas guzzlers - but I'm equally tired of tax dollars promoting electric cars by subsidizing higher income people who can afford to buy them.

There is no magic wand you can wave to create charging stations across the country - or to convince the public electric cars make sense. In the end, the electric cars rely on electricity to keep them operational. Does that mean the pollution just occurs somewhere else to produce that electrical power?

The biggest hurdle of using any alternative fuel is the requirement of profitability. Before expanding into alternative fuels corporations first guarantee they can profit either from consumers or from taxpayers.

Innovation succeeds when products introduced are clearly of benefit to the public - you can't create a demand for products by subsidizing them endlessly. What you create is a huge profit machine that will collapse if subsidies are removed. Throughout history, businesses and individuals took big financial risks to produce new products with a goal of profit in the future - now the taxpayers take the risk.

We are seeing this "profit from day one" attitude throughout society. Drugs that are not high profit drugs are being imported because big pharmas refuse to produce them. Vaccines are in short supply because they are not "high profit" items.

The ideal alternative fuel in my opinion is from biomass - yet that is the least funded research going on. There is potential to create fuel using household waste - a dual environmental impact considering the landfills we keep filling up. Biomass research will pick up steam only if a big corp finds a way to massively profit from it.

I wonder what would happen to energy if all tax breaks and subsidies were removed from oil companies, solar and wind companies, etc. What if they all had to compete on a field where prices were REAL and profits were earned. In a world where profits were dictated only by consumer purchases - we might see some real innovation.

Never happen....

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ThomM

12 years ago

The biggest hurdle of using any alternative fuel is the requirement of profitability. Before expanding into alternative fuels corporations first guarantee they can profit either from consumers or from taxpayers.

If the govt. stopped subsidising the oil companies, alternative fuels would be able to compete. In fact I'd go as far as to say if the govt. never subsidised the oil companies we would already have an alternative fuels market.

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Kurt

12 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

If the govt. stopped subsidising the oil companies, alternative fuels would be able to compete. In fact I'd go as far as to say if the govt. never subsidised the oil companies we would already have an alternative fuels market.

It's Big Oil and its ties to the Military Industrial Complex. Eisenhower warned us over 50 years ago about needing to get off of foreign oil and also about the Military Industrial Complex. I wonder if we'll ever listen?

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TLTheLiberator

12 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

If the govt. stopped subsidising the oil companies, alternative fuels would be able to compete. In fact I'd go as far as to say if the govt. never subsidised the oil companies we would already have an alternative fuels market.

IMHO, The subsidies are only extra gravy for the oil companies.

The chief executive wants to stop the oil subsidies and use the money instead to further launch a slew of alternative solutions but...

... the congress,AKA the house and the senate, some dems and most repubs are the hold up.

The repub led congress is not gana do it and I think we also need 60 votes from the senate to get rid of the subsidies.

TL

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ThomM

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Kurt

It's Big Oil and its ties to the Military Industrial Complex. Eisenhower warned us over 50 years ago about needing to get off of foreign oil and also about the Military Industrial Complex. I wonder if we'll ever listen?

I often wonder that myself Kurt

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

IMHO, The subsidies are only extra gravy for the oil companies.

The chief executive wants to stop the oil subsidies and use the money instead to further launch a slew of alternative solutions but...

... the congress,AKA the house and the senate, some dems and most repubs are the hold up.

The repub led congress is not gana do it and I think we also need 60 votes from the senate to get rid of the subsidies.

TL

When they are showing record profits every quarter, I'd say you're right.
The thing is we need to take the govt. out of this and let the market take over.
Right now because of the oil subsidies, other forms of energy need the same subsidies to compete. Instead of the govt. subsidising any of them, let them compete on even ground.
Competition in the long run will produce cheaper, more efficient products.
Government intervention simply doesn't do that.

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MissTerraK

12 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

I often wonder that myself Kurt

When they are showing record profits every quarter, I'd say you're right.
The thing is we need to take the govt. out of this and let the market take over.
Right now because of the oil subsidies, other forms of energy need the same subsidies to compete. Instead of the govt. subsidising any of them, let them compete on even ground.
Competition in the long run will produce cheaper, more efficient products.
Government intervention simply doesn't do that.

You are spot on with that one Thom, and I agree 100%.

The problem with this though, from what I've seen from the government as of late, is that ain't gonna happen any time soon!

The govt. is nothing but a whore going around sleeping in big money beds for sheer profit taking no heed of the consequences of its own people.

Sorry, but that's how I see it.

Terra

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MoneyMagnetMagnate

12 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

I often wonder that myself Kurt

When they are showing record profits every quarter, I'd say you're right.
The thing is we need to take the govt. out of this and let the market take over.
Right now because of the oil subsidies, other forms of energy need the same subsidies to compete. Instead of the govt. subsidising any of them, let them compete on even ground.
Competition in the long run will produce cheaper, more efficient products.
Government intervention simply doesn't do that.

It will be an uphill battle to end the subsidies - and regulate the oil futures market...for sure -

Even when oil is refined, the price for crude is set at the highest price available, even when lower price crude from other sources is being used.

It's a bit like selling you your Honda at a higher Acura price...because it has parts also used on an Acura...and you go by highest market rate - (pardon my 'crude' analogy, but you see what I mean)

And the futures market controls the prices of something they don't even really own...to the trader's delight and the consumers dismay...

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TLTheLiberator

12 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

I often wonder that myself Kurt

When they are showing record profits every quarter, I'd say you're right.

The thing is we need to take the govt. out of this and let the market take over.
Right now because of the oil subsidies, other forms of energy need the same subsidies to compete.

Instead of the govt. subsidising any of them, let them compete on even ground.
Competition in the long run will produce cheaper, more efficient products.
Government intervention simply doesn't do that.

I hear you Thom but IMHO without gov intervention alternatives are not going anywhere.

Big oil will crush the alt market and keep us on oil until the cows come home.

Alternatives will grow at a snails pace- much much slower than if the feds helped jump start the process.

All The Best!!

TL

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ThomM

12 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

I hear you Thom but IMHO without gov intervention alternatives are not going anywhere.

Big oil will crush the alt market and keep us on oil until the cows come home.

Alternatives will grow at a snails pace- much much slower than if the feds helped jump start the process.

All The Best!!

TL

I don't know TL.
First I think the price of gas and oil products would go up here to European levels.
That right there will create a stronger demand for alternative fuel sources.
Now that a strong demand has been created you can mass produce alternative sources at a lower cost.
Besides, right now when gas goes up all we do is complain and expect the government to do something about it.
Take them out of the equation and and I think we have a better chance of getting something done. Their track record in this area up to the present tells me that.

Thanks

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Kurt

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

I agree that I'm tired of tax dollars supporting gas guzzlers - but I'm equally tired of tax dollars promoting electric cars by subsidizing higher income people who can afford to buy them.

There is no magic wand you can wave to create charging stations across the country - or to convince the public electric cars make sense. In the end, the electric cars rely on electricity to keep them operational. Does that mean the pollution just occurs somewhere else to produce that electrical power?

I don't believe anyone's suggested a magic wand was the solution. The solution comes from education.

As far as pollution, solar and wind don't cause pollution. And using coal to create electricity to power cars is something like 90% cleaner than combustion engines. This is a good example of "educating".

The biggest hurdle of using any alternative fuel is the requirement of profitability. Before expanding into alternative fuels corporations first guarantee they can profit either from consumers or from taxpayers.

Innovation succeeds when products introduced are clearly of benefit to the public - you can't create a demand for products by subsidizing them endlessly. What you create is a huge profit machine that will collapse if subsidies are removed. Throughout history, businesses and individuals took big financial risks to produce new products with a goal of profit in the future - now the taxpayers take the risk.

Again, we need to educate people on the real facts. Big Oil is subsidized to the tune of $1 billion a day in the form of free security via the US military in the Middle East. This figure is from a group of retired senators, both D and R. And it doesn't include loss of life and limb.

Toss in the fact that Big Oil pays a tax rate of 9%, which is lower than any other industry, and it makes it very tough for other energy industries to compete. People need to know that Big Oil isn't paying their fair share.

And, China realizes the future of green energy. They take our engineering and manufacture it. China is now the leader in green energy manufacturing.

The ideal alternative fuel in my opinion is from biomass - yet that is the least funded research going on. There is potential to create fuel using household waste - a dual environmental impact considering the landfills we keep filling up. Biomass research will pick up steam only if a big corp finds a way to massively profit from it.

Biomass is another good alternative. There isn't a single answer, but rather many that will provide the solutions.

I wonder what would happen to energy if all tax breaks and subsidies were removed from oil companies, solar and wind companies, etc. What if they all had to compete on a field where prices were REAL and profits were earned. In a world where profits were dictated only by consumer purchases - we might see some real innovation.

Never happen....

The problem with a totally free market approach is that it's reactive, not proactive. Anyone with half a brain should realize that oil is getting harder and harder to find, which will cause the price to continually rise.

And it doesn't take a high IQ to realize that China and India want their share of oil, causing more competition for less oil.

We can wait until the price of oil is so high to react, or we can use a little forethought and plan ahead for the time when oil will become far too expensive.

Not to mention, there's some intangible costs to using oil, such as pollution, climate change and the impact sending money over-seas has on our economy that can't easily be factored into "cost" and "fair market" concepts can't take into account.

How much do the health issues caused by pollution cost? How much is a couple of years off the end of your life worth?