I May Be Looking For A Mentor

Aren't there any courses you can attend run by professional studios?

Have you considered "distance learning" on the topic? For example:

Recording Engineer School; Online Course for Home Studios and Careers in Pro Sound.

Looks pretty interesting, and only $299. If I were a better musician I'd look closer at it. Watch the video and you'll see what I mean.

That shouldn't be too hard to find. There are lots of unemployed film-school-graduate sound technicians out there, including NJ I'd reckon. Some of them might need original songs for their film projects, too. Try www.meetup.com

Steven,

I used to be heavy into the home studio thing (even got a degree in audio engineering several years ago), but got sidetracked into IM in recent years.

I don't have the time to do any real sort of mentoring right now, but would be more than happy to help you out with suggestions or any questions you might have.

Judging from your comments on "bouncing" I'm guessing that you are using an analog recorder? I'm sure you already know this, but if you record digitally into a DAW (such as ProTools, Cubase, Sonar, etc), then "bouncing" is a non-issue... you can ultimately record as many tracks as you want, then edit/mix each track individually after you're done recording, with no loss in quality.

Room acoustics can obviously make a huge difference for anything recorded with a mic, but there are lots of simple things you can do to improve your acoustics dramatically.

If you have good acoustics --> good sounding instruments --> good mics/preamp --> good recorder, then there is honestly very little mixing/mastering work required to make a great sounding recording.

If you don't already have it, I highly recommend the book "Modern Recording Techniques" by David Huber. I've read a lot of books on audio recording, and it's definitely my "go to" book on the subject. It's not specifically for home recording, but it covers just about everything you'll need to know for recording in any environment. And his writing style makes everything (relatively) easy to understand.

Anyways... what's your exact instrument & recording setup?

Steven go over to http://www.recording.org and sign up - it's free.

There are some very knowledgable folks there who work in the recording industry full-time.

They have sub-forums on most topics, and even have beginning forums.

There is a multi-hundred dollar software program called Reaper, but the maker sells it at a "beginner" price of only $60 to people with a project studio.

As I recall you have an 880 as a recorder. I had one of those and later an 1880 (I think that was the model). Does it have S/PDIF? Or do you have a way of imputting to your computer?

Reaper will give you unlimited tracks. You already have the computer, and you can use the Roland as a mixer.

Track problems solved. Otherwise the track bouncing is going to throw off your mix, because you really won't know how everything will sit in the mix until you mix it all at once.

Overall sound quaility is dependent as much on the mic pres as it is on the mics, and the musician.

BTW There is another good, pro-recording forum at Gearslutz.com, but I find the folks at recording.org to be more helpful.

:-Don

Steven, you can always buy a digital mixer/recorder for less then 500$. You can record separate instruments/tracks into separate digital channels and then mix it in there, apply filters, EQ, compressions - you name it. I bet you can find a good bargain @ EBay.

Have you checked that option?

Steven, the quality of the sound through the recording system is only as good as the weakest (worst sounding) element in the system.

When I had the 880 and later the 1880, I never could get the sound I wanted. Later I went to an Akai DPS24, it was better, but still didn't give me what I was looking for.

The problem turned out to be lack of "quality" with the mic (and instrument) preamps in the Akai DPS24. (Even that Tascam 24 you mentioned thinking about getting, will have the same problem.)

Yes, I too plug the instruments directly in, and even use a MIDI out keyboard into a Roland VK-8 to get a Hammond B3 sound. It then plugs directly into the recording equipment. But nothing was cutting it until I bought better external preamps - which also had a direct input jack for the instruments.

For the money a preamp called an RNP made by FMR Electronics, and its matching compressor (and RNC) will make a big improvement in the sound. Then as Brandon said, a firewire interface will let you connect these to your computer.

I spent several years looking around for used high-end channel strips (mic preamps combined with compression and EQ), and eventually found several bargains on a pair of Avalon 737sp units and a pair of Focusrite 430 ISA-II units.

I bypass the preamps on the DPS24 recorder and go directly into the ADC (audio to digital converters). This is what those computer input devices from M-Audio will do for you.

But now I am looking for a way to put all that directly into a computer, and not need to use the Akai - it really is old technology that makes some of the process so much more difficult than using a computer.

Here is a brand new interface called an Appollo that I am drooling over. I just have no way of justifying the price! Yow! Universal Audio Apollo QUAD | Sweetwater.com

The M-Audio is soooo much more affordable.

Here is Reaper REAPER | Audio Production Without Limits

Condenser (capacitor) mics use a power supply. This power is usually supplied by the preamp, and is sent to the mic through the same cord as the one used to plug (XLR) the mic into the preamp. This is called phantom power.

Even the USB mics people plug into their computers to create podcasts and/or audio for Camtasia videos, are condenser mics. They get their power through the USB connection.

Contact both sweetwater.com and BHphotovideo.com (I am NOT an affiliate) and request a copy of their pro-audio catalogs. Start reading, and asking questions here and at recording.org.

Once you get an idea about what you might want, go to the guitarcenter.com (also not an affiliate) site and start searching their "used gear" section. I have found some real bargains there too. And they can ship from any of their stores.

Most of the guitar and bass sounds (tone and sustain) you hear on commercial recordings are created by "stomp boxes" into which the instruments are plugged. Sometime you need these to get a particular sound, because recording equipment can't create these sounds.

:-Don

Damn , just wrote you a 5 paragraph post Steve and accidentally deleted it. Will come back.

Im not an engineer but I have spent countless hours with them in the studio and the producers who tell them what to do.

I can offer alot of perspective on the process of laying down a nice recording itself, but wont charge you. The technical stuff is for someone else to answer, using compressors...leveling and eqing...all that.

I know how to lay down tracks though and learned from the best. if you do that well the engineer has a better time making it sound great.

It would be hard to do with 8 tracks, others may know something better than bouncing.

One of these days I will wise up and start disciplining myself to write posts in word first. lol Just never know when its gonna be a two liner or turn into a novel!

try to look for online tutorials and script online before you hire a mentor try self-learning first.

Here is what I can help with most Steven... The laying down of tracks.

I learned all this stuff live in the studio on many occasions over seven years with brent rowan, charlie craig, kieth stegall, and others... also used to work with the "Players" alot on demo's...

You can google them and see em in action. actually ANY of these people really... I could give you some song titles and show you the co publishing deals if you need credentials... Not that Im trying to become a paid mentor or anything, but just for your comfort in taking this advice...

A: Doubling.

Now in your case you may have to bounce a little, but its best if you only bounce certain things.

You can bounce a lead guitar track... with something else, maybe another lead guitar or something... ... but only single note type stuf. In other words, not strums or stuff that’s already prone to get muddy...

Take the stuff that’s the cleanest like lead guitar lines and bass lines... and bounce THAT together, because you may lose a little quality , but if you bounce stuff like strum tracks together and things with multiple sounds going on in the like multiple strings... as in strumming, then you will lose a lot of quality on that, and its hard to mix.

Theres less variables in a single note kind of line to muddy up.

You could reasonably bounce a vocal track with a lead guitar track because the two are never going on simultaneously.

You will just have to adjust the highs on your vocal and make them a little crispeir than they really need to be before you bounce, and then when you lose that bit of crispiness in the bounce it will have been accommodated for.

But I wouldn’t bounce harmonies or strumming tracks or rhythm tracks of any kind.

Again, they will sound like mush.

Anything you put together in a bounced track should be things that don’t run over each other or play simultaneously if possible. A lead vocal never comes in at the same time as a guitar lead.

So I dont know alot about bouning because I usually work with 48 tracks... but here's where I can "really" help.

I learned about doubling from Nashville producer Brent Rowan...

We co wrote and spent a lot of time in the studio when I first got published, later I found out that its common knowledge among Nashville producers to do what Im about to describe...and they have spread it to LA as well, because its such a Quantum Leap in getting a good sound.

In Nashville they double EVERY track, including lead vocals...some instruments are quadrupled.

They would make me do 4 strum tracks...and play it the exact same way every time, and I didn’t understand why.

There are 3 reasons:

1: Because it helps get a “stereo” mix... Ever notice being in your car listening to a drummer and one cymbol comes out of one speaker and another comes out of a different speaker...

Its all about the way the mix is “panned”, and doubling tracks gives you more panning ability, and gives your mixes more texture and less “monotone”. They come to life.

Sure, you can pan a guitar to the left and a piano to the right...but its not the same as that cool sound of the SAME instrument phasing in and out of different speakers. You can only do that by doubling your tracks or quadrupling.

This is especially important with harmonies...it may only be a two part harmony but there may be 6 tracks laid for harmonies, because they can pan it around and give it that angelic feel.

2: Because they can compress for instance your lead vocal, and give it a slight chorus sound... Not extreme, not even noticeable but very pleasing to the ear on a subconscious level.

Natural is way better than digital chorus when it comes to vocals. Digital is too perfect and too pronounced.

3: Because they can go back over the mix without you being there in the booth singing over and over... and they punch in and punch out notes in your vocal from different tracks...and put together the perfect “you”. Its not computer magic, its YOU in your best moments.

They can take all of your best moments in a song, after having you sing 4 tracks identically...and if your tone is off on one track, they can pop in another in on that spot that’s legitimately YOU, where your tone may have been better.

They can capture your best moments out of four tracks and bring them altogether on just a couple of tracks and you have your own best sound in every line.

The important thing to know about doubling is , as you are recording, watch your LED’s and you can match up your timing easier, because if you are showing leds on two tracks, its easy to tell when you are out of pocket because the green lines wont move exactly at the same time.

You have to match up your timing exactly when doubling... so it may take a few takes...and obviously you aren’t a beginner so you know that but Im just trying to keep typing as it conmes so we maintain continuity here...

Here’s the thing, you ARENT goping to match it up “precisely” no matter what, but if you are just very slightly off it’s a bonus because it gives that chorus effect and makes it sound thicker.

On the other side of the coin, that being said, you don’t want to try and create that chorus effect by intentionally not matching up...because then it goes too far and gets muddy.

You will get the one degree of separation anyway, and the perfect amount if you try your best to match up strumming or whatever it is...precisely. You may be perfect, but that slight human element will put it out of phase just enough , the tighter you can be.

B: Strum tracks or what I call “fluidity” tracks...

You may notice that some recordings sound choppy... and not fluid... everything seems out of pocket even when you are being as tight as possible...

You need a “fluidity” track... a few of them.

I asked brent “Why do I have to strum this track four times when there isn’t even any acoustic strumming in the song” – He said “Just trust me and do what I say”.

Well later I found out that they take those tracks and mix them into the background of the song at a level that you almost cant hear it unless you listen REAL HARD... And what those tracks do is provide sort of a fluid moving background for the song.

Now this doesn’t work if your musicians are all over the place, out of pocket, not strumming in good timing...

You don’t need a fluidity track if there aren’t any open pockets...but then...you don’t need the musicians if there aren’t any open pockets because it means they are playing over each other and mushing into each other...your recording will sound like crap ANYWAY...

But if everyone is tight, there are going to be little pockets. The fluidity tracks don’t only fill those pockets with something that’s SUPPOSED to be there, but they also provide that panning effect...and give your recording this kind of out of phase stereo sound as well.

Out of phase is good... people playing all over each other is bad.

You may notice these tracks in the form of strumming, or “strings” (violins...) or organs, or consistent long held out keyboard notes WAAAAAAAAAAAY in the back ground. They help bring the song to life and provide that fluidity. They can even help even out the musicians mistakes a little.

You may also want to add a more cool up front strum track that rakes in and out or or is choppier whatever and doesnt play consistently...but thats a featured track not a back ground one...

To implement this (Im going to use the guitar strums for example)...

Track one: metronome track (later to be erased) to help you keep timing throughout your recording. You can also watch it on the leds and that helps too.

Track two: “scratch track” – Sing your vocal with a guitar...and play along with the netronome to get your timing perfect. Then you have a basic scratch track to lay all the other tracks around.

You will erase your scratch track later when you lay the real final vocal... You will use your scratch to build everything else around because you took the time to make sure it was right on with the metronome so it’s a safe reference point to play around.

Track Three.... before you lay anything else, lay your fluidity tracks...

Double them as much as possible, and take more time with them than any other tracks, even if you have to record them 20 times to get it right, because you want them to be a precisely identical as possible... if your last track was strummed a certain way, then strum the second the same way, if on the second you hear a strum in between a strum that should be there, then do it over.

These have to be perfectly clean...

You don’t want a fancy strum, or a tricky strum on background tracks, once you understand the purpose later, you want a basic back and forth boring strum that is in perfect timing and NEVER STOPS.

You hear it strumming all the way through, in fact , because it never stops that’s one reason you barely notice it in the background....this is a rich track that has no open pockets (unless the song has dead stops in it then you only stop the strumming on the dead stops).

Also , just because its supposed to be way back in the mix, doesnt mean to play soft...you want good solid strums, you can soften them in the mix.

This will fill all the pockets in your recording at the end.

Now more notes on this: You can do this with a violin or a keyboard... but strumming is best. You wouldn’t think it but they even do it in heavy metal and R&B, Pop, all of it.

You just don’t notice it a lot. Its mixed in at a level that you almost cant hear.

Why is all of this important...

Because if ONE thing is off time or out of pocket its tolerable... but when 8 tracks have out of pocket places all over them...Its terrible and muddy and garage band sounding.

If you don’t lay your first few tracks right, even if they take hours, you will build all this stuff around it incorrectly and come out with a muddy recording.

No matter how perfect we are, we need to lay these reference points first, because when you lay track after track on top of bad scratch tracks..it gets progressively worse with each track.

Last note, and there is lots more so I will probably return here periodically, but this should help a lot if you don’t already know this stuff, and you probably DO know some of it being experienced as you are...

C: “Hooks rhythms leads and melodies”

If you want a good hook, meaning ‘musical” not lyrical... (this part you probably already know) then if you play the hook every four beats its going to get redundant.and it will mix into everything else in the listeners mind, and wont really be a good hook anymore because people wont be looking for it and anticipating it. It may as well be a rhythm track.

When you have a good guitar hook you have to set up...in other words, you want it to deliver that punch...so you don’t want to do it every four beats or eight beats.

If you listen to a drummer...every eight beats or so he does a little something extra with maybe a cowbell or something, but then you look eght beats later and its not there, its rather a cymbol... so you might listen for another eight beats... and it doesn’t show up again, this time an extra snap on the snare is in that pcket... so you give up on your hook coming...then eight beats later theres that cowbell again making you all happy...its anticipation...but it has to be consistent...

So then you will see a pattern throughout the song with that drummer, he plays an extra cowbell on 8, then a cymbol on 16 then an extra snare hit on 24...then back to the cowbell on 32... and that will happen all through the song consistently, maybe changing only on the chorus, or another section of the song...but on every verse its consistent.

This can also be translated to guitar hooks or piano... theres a piano on the eighth beat of a verse that does something, then on the sixteenth beat it’s a guitar in that pocket, and on the 24th its another piano or something.

The thing about hooks is that they appear in the exact same place everytime, but aren’t overplayed so much that theres no anticipation.

So if you over play it, its not a hook, if you play it in a different spot each time, it cant hook anyone and causes the tune to lose fluidity...if you play them in the same spot each time just enough to make people want to hear it again...then it will hook them.

OKAY REALLY last note here:

And most important...I remember watching brent scold one of my bandmembers because they had talked me into letting them record instead of using studio musicians on this demo... My guitar player was flashy... he overplayed a lot, although we were all too young and dumb to realize it at that time, and brent called him out and asked him:

“When is it appropriate to play a melody line over a vocal?

The guy proudly stuck his chest out and said “When....”

I forgot what he said, I only remember brent interrupting him mid sentence and saying “wrong”.

The guys face dropped to the floor because he had prided himself all these years on this... and brent said

“The appropriate time for ANY melody line to play over ANY melody line is NEVER!

I never want to hear you play a lick while someone is singing again...ONLY IN THE POCKETS and only in YOUR pockets."

That’s soooo important. Don’t ever let two melody lines be going simultaneously unless they are parallel lines.

NEVER play a melody line over or along with a vocalist, only rhythm...play ONLY in your pockets. Never play over another musicians pocket...

So anyway Steve I hope this stuff helps. I will come back more if I think of more, for now you will think Im crazy if I don’t stop typing.

Its 4am but I wanted you to know that keeping word to you was important.

Im a songwriter, not an engineer, but I told it the best I know how.

John

Ps. I need to start doing home recording too. I may join a subforum to learn as well about the homestudio technology available.

If you still need help please send me a message. My husband has been in live sound and sound recording for over a decade and a half and has worked on lots of albums and with different bands. He can probably answer any questions you have.

I never would have thought to ask such a question as Steve did, in the off topic forum of all places.

The responses in this thread have been VERY enlightening (if not mind-blowing...)

Whoulda thunk?

you can learn it from some site online

Mostly its just about understanding that we can make demo's... and not being upset with ourselves for that... because in the industry its common, you make demo's yourself, and you go to big studios to make albums.

I use to make all my demo's, then have a producer pick through 70 songs in a row saying "Been done, been said, No hook, Too sad, not relevent, been done..."

And pick 3 songs out of 100 to actually spend money on, even AFTER I was published, let alone all the rejection before that..

I should be so lucky right? (Read the bottom of this post)

It hurts watching a producer pick your stuff apart, but eventually you come to understand that only a couple out of a hundred songs has that quality..., Its okay. THE BEST songwriters have the same numbers.

If I had 100k to invest in music...I wouldnt buy a studio.... I would make demo's at home and pitch my stuff and only produce the stuff that was really well accepted.

If I wanted to make an album I would take 20-50k and hire studio musicians to do it.

Even though I'd LOVE to do it myself... It would be sub par even at its best. But my friends still love it!!!

Dont be discouraged brother, its the SONG that matters, and you write well.

Ps, Steve there are alot of song pitching resources, and seriously if you work the numbers hard enough you WILL get published... Really.

Just have to keep pumping the demo's out... Once I get back to Nashville it would be great to have you down, and we can go out pitching together! That would be awesome, you are one of my WF hero's man!

They are like articles...demos... If you can think of it like article marketing... eventually critcal mass takes over, when you have enough of them out there.

Seen it happen a million times, there are THOUSANDS of published songwriters for every single radio artist.

Edit:

There were at least a hundred rejections before I got published though in the first place Steve... It sure wasnt a silver spoon thing... and it sucked...I had really given up on myself to be honest....feeling alot like you may now...

I had maybe a thousand demo's out there that I had made by bouncing track on a KARAOKE MACHINE of all things.

I was working at a factory at the time... and one day I was praying and said to God "You have to have a better way for me than this to support my family...Everyman has a talent he can make his way with, and music isnt going anywhere, what do you want me to do?"

I was frustrated.

Well, I dropped the thought, and went back to working, and then about an hour this song started coming to my head called "average joe".

I hummed it all afternoon , and had half of it written by the time I got home...

A couple of months went by, and I got a call from a friend I had played music somewhere with...a connection I had made years earlier out of hundreds... and he said, someone heard your "cover" demo and they are going on tour with George Jones, and they need a bass player... and they want more of your stuff...you may get an audition.

I was sitting in the middle of bum _____ arkansas, thinking , wow, God can even reach me way out here?

Anyway, I didnt have any money to make another demo so I went out to my garage with a karaoke machine and bounced some tracks... and put some original songs on it...and sent it.

I didnt think anything would come of it honestly I had seen so much false hope in the past... I went out into the middle of the church parking lot that night alone, and sat under a street lamp stretched out on the pavement and said "God, if I could only have professional studio equipment to work with...then I might have a chance..."

Next week I get a call from an artist who had recently got signed to an upwardly mobile independent record label with alot of backing..., and he invited me to fly out, paid my way, paid for my hotel and I couldnt even afford a bass at the time, so my grandmother, before I went took me to a music store and said "You are going to go with the best", and she told the owner not to let me pick anything cheap...

So I walked out with the best bass and amp....

Went to the audition, and got the gig, mostly because I could harmonize...

This guy loved my songs and one day he said "I want you to come meet my publisher...".

I went to meet this guy and he asked me to pick ffor him, so I did...I played a few songs and he didnt seem too moved...

Then right before we left I played one more "and he said "Thats the greatest song I have ever heard", and he called his assistant and said "I want you to sign this guy before someone else does".

The next day I went in and they gave me a $1,000 sign on bonus, and a $750 dollar a week salary, plus enough perks that I never had to use my salary lol.... and I did that for the next seven years.

What Im saying is that if you put the numbers out there, you dont know where they are gonna come from.... it could be a place you least expect... but they will catch up and one of those demos will catch SOMEONES attention, and when you are least expecting it you may get that call... but you have top put alot of demos out there because each one is a "possibility".

Create lots of possibilities.

Most people express alot of anguish for wanting to be in music, but they dont create alot of "possibilities"

How can it be possible then...?

By continuing to create more possibilities.

This was a KARAOKE demo Steve!

Thats the end...

Oh, btw.... Guess which song got me signed?

I guess God was listening that day.

Yup, it was average Joe...

and the next seven years I was surrounded by all the equipment you could ever dream of...and then you know what I realized?

As I was holding my $3,000 guitar?

I couldnt write any better songs with it than I did my beat up yamaha back home...lol

You probably dont have time for all this reading Steven, but if you do I hope it encourages you to keep creating possibilities, and a little prayer dont hurt either I guess.

Here's the guy who taught me everything I know Steven... Thought you might like to read some of his philosophy.

http://www.rowestrecords.com/about.php

Heck I dont even care if you call him and tell him I sent you... I have written and recorded about 10 songs with him...but we havent spoken in years, I dont know what he's up to. he still owns 50% of the publishing on them though, I may hit him up myself too...

You want to see something mind blowing?

Check out this discography:

http://www.rowestrecords.com/discography.php

Everyone from Dolly Parton to peter cetera , you would be hard pressed to even finish reading this list let alone not come across an artist you know of.

BTW Brent likes demos with nothing but an acoustic accompaniment.

Well, i used to be that way too... Truth is there was a time in the middle of it when I really took what a special thing it was for granted, and I was irritated with it and spoiled...Then I came to my sense....went through several phases ...Anyway, when I first started I was a bit rebellious against the "system"...I hated the "craft", I hated people telling me what to do and how to sing and play... and I hated most of all having to be "commercial".

Then I got sent to some seminars and sat under some teachers and began to understand the beauty in commercial music...and the "craft".

If you can only write when you feel creative, thats cool, but if you can write on command, its way cooler.

I use to have to have feelings to write, but then I learned about syncopation and illiteration and how it plays into music...and inward rhymes...I can rhyme 4 times in a sentence and create a whole pattern in a song where the rythem of the ryme changes and does cool things...

And I really began to admire writers who could do these things....

AND.... I had to write 8 songs per month, so depending on my feelings and inspirations was not a good strategy to keep up the pace.

I HAD to learn to "seek" inspiration instead of wait for it.

So I would go to blockbuster and look for movies, and I would find catch phrases that I could turn around and twist...

"such as "when Boy Meets Girl"

Turned that into a song about a man and a woman going home from a bar together, and called it "anything can happen when good boy meets a country girl" (kind of a country rock sound) , instead of the whispering romantic "When boy meets girl".

Thats what I mean by twisting something.

"mark it down in your little black heart" (instead of "Book".)

Go for proven concepts...things that were pol;pular in society...

i learned to use 'jargon" - you see , truckers have a jargon, cowboys have a jargon, gangsters have a jargon...

High school preps have a jargon...if you are up on those things you can write with them.

Then there are language trends like "Talk to the hand cuz the ears aint listenin..."

We have metaphors.... Brent once asked me to write a love song that was metaphorical with court justice...

So I wrote a song called "Love Crime" and I used legal jargon in it

So we have metaphors...

We have stories about people

We have stories about things, children, dogs, puppy love, swingsets...old sheds... whatever...

We have songs about our hero's , our family, our good times, childhood haunts... For instance I have a song called "millcreek Road"...about where I had my teenage years..

For that matter we have songs about "roads"...there is a road about a mile from here called "Big danger", and I used to have a girlfriend there...I have always had this line in my head about our break up, regarding something she said to me about not being a stranger..."If you're ever out on Big Danger".... I have been wanting to write that for years and never have.

So, moving on, theres all kinds of stuff that deserves to be written about.

Then there are perspectives...you can write a song in the first person or 3rd person...

When you can write on command and lear5n to FIND things to write about its quite empowering.

when you understand what hooks do and how to set them up its empowering...for a hook (lyrical) to have that punch, it has to be set up...by the preceding lines...

I had to learn to condense 5 minutes worth of lyrical thoughts into 3:20

You become really honed and refined.

What ends up happening is that when those "feeling" times come...You can write them even better because you are a skilled machine!

Sorry i got excited there...lol Im proud of having disciplined myself like that.

Anyway, the best thing to do is find books by hit writers and read them... Diane Warren is awesome, I read a book by her once... Look up their interviews.

Instead of looking up Jimi Hendrix, look up some songwriter interviews...

These guys can really open your perspective.

I hated commercialism. Then one day I was sitting at a bar in a songwriters club rapping with this little group i hung out with for awhile... and I felt bad, because they were all dying for songwriting deals, and I was a spoiled published guy...Here I am ordering like 15 dollar drinks and things, on my company expense account, because going to bars and schmoozing was considered "a networking dinner"... and they could barely afford a beer.

I had to buy them dinner if I wanted to hang out really, because they were all broke.

and their main subject of conversation was "look at that commercial sellout up there..." talking about the other songwriters... and about how they hated commercialism...

And being from the background I was from at that time...I looked around and thought a mean thought... I thought "Maybe thats why you are broke and cant get a deal".

It dawned on me that I was highly trained and I was getting ZERO growth out of hanging around with people who had no desire to become pro's.

I thought "maybe the reason you dont like writing within social parameters is because you 'cant' and so you hate".

and my whole mindset changed about commercialism...and I realized that anyone can write what they feel, but only a pro can write on command with all the hooks, lines and sinkers...

and I was proud to write commercial!

Diane Warren is the number one songwriter in the world and she can write commercial on command.

You can too...Just read some books by pro writers.

Its very empowering.

Ps. You know we have several lifes within our life usually, that was another life... after my deasl ended I accidentally stumbled into offline marketing and got excited about the interent...and I never got back to writing songs... I was a little burnt out from writing for seven years.

This thread is bringing up some inspiration though. Thank you.

And thank you for giving me a warrior to share this with.

You and I have something in common, we can sit and write a BOOK in 60m minutes... We are "writers". Machines. You are a machine! You are desinted to write... You HAVE TO.


I have a sign right in front of me thatr says "you are a writer". It reminds me that just because my songwriting career ended... the "writer" didnt. i still do it, and make thousands of dollars for writing. So do you!

Before this it was writing pitches for call centers, and training manuals for telemarketers... all kinds of writing. Cant escape it.

I can write for 24 hours non stop and just did in the last twenty four. lol, on the WF...

Having trouble sleeping...because I have a custody case in three days. Writing is how I deal.

It helps me alot, and hopefully some others

Typing sounds provide the rythem!

I think you can do alot better. But I could see a band like DEVO taking this and using synths and alot of syncopation and putting a pop flavor all over it.

I have been up too long to give it a full critique, but I think you you have all the skills to write commercial...

I noticed reading the lyrics first that line one and line three dont rhyme in the first verse...and was looking at first to see if you were creating a different pattern...

Then I noticed that every other line rhymes in the rest of the song... so it wasnt the pattern, and I know that bugs the heck out of you, because its clear that you set this pattern up intentionally but couldnt find the perfect phrase for line 2.

More than likely you let it go because you were excited to lay it down and record it, and now you may feel its in stone...and intend to go back and re record it someday.

How do I know?

Because I have a gazillion songs like that. lol

On a personal level , I like it , it makes me feel good, and one day I think I even listened to it several times in a row not far back because it was making me feel good while I was working...

But I dont know if its commercial the way it is... I would have to have some sleep to get the left brain working and offer a full critique.

Steve, I hope this is inspiring you.

I had a thought awhile ago... You are a big cheese warrior to alot of people, and I know its hard to get to know people because they all want something from you eventually, and you are always looking for that moment when that is going to come in...

You deserve a fan who isnt going to do that and you dont have to be on the look out for when that moment is going to come.

Thats me.

So this is an opportunity to give what I have to someone who is constantly giving all he has, and people are constantly wanting to latch on and take from him.

Thats the best part about writing all this stuff for you.

We can make this thread last for a year. This is yours, this is where people come to give to YOU!

Ps. Ask me anything you want on this subject, and if I can answer I will.

May crash for awhile first though. lol

Wow, I didnt even see your post above that last post.... Yeah, we have a,lot left to talk about... 900 songs?

There is zero possibility that you dont have at least 10 potential hits in there. Its not numerically possible.

Music production talk on the warrior forum!

Hey Don Schenk, is it possible that we used to be on some of the old Roland VS880 lists backs in the day (The Big List, etc?) Seems like it.

Steven... I think you know I spent the entire first half of my life in the studio as a recording/touring artist and session player.

Until a few years ago, I was also a maniacal home studio rat and very active on most of the pro audio web watering holes.

With self-contained digital 8 track recorders like your Boss, you can create perfectly acceptable demos - but you have to learn to work within the limitations.

For example - don't track your midi instruments to "tape", instead record the drum machine/keyboard performances as midi in a sequencer (your keyboard probably has a sequencer built-in, but you can buy a hardware sequencer that will look and operate much like a drum machine for dirt on Ebay).

Use a small mixer to submix those tracks into the Boss as one stereo pair (or two - one stem for the synth, one stem for drums). That frees up available tracks for guitars/vocals/bass, percussion. etc. In fact, don't commit those to "tape" at all until you're ready to mix.

And here's another tip - get yourself some real percussion instruments to overdub on top of midi/sequenced drums. The air from a real shaker or tambourine track can breathe new life into a fake sounding drum machine, well worth giving up a track for it (when you've only got 8 that hurts.)

But most important of all - HEADROOM. As in, that little Boss recorder won't have any.

Headroom is the available "give" or "margin" between optimal audio signal and distortion/overmodulation/clipping at mix, the point when all of the audio signals sum to one stereo Left and Right pair.

MIX SUBTRACTIVELY... don't ADD more high end before you CUT muddy low-mids. Don't push the guitars UP automatically - should the drums be pulled back a wee bit?

All 8 (or 16 or 24 or... 136!) tracks sum together at the stereo buss - they need headroom and their own space in the available frequency spectrum.

When you're new (or just not very good at) mixing audio you often wind up with a huge wall of distorted mush at mix.

And then to try and create clarity, fader creep starts to happen... "I can't hear the vocal..." up 1.5 db channel 3 goes... "Now I can't hear the keys..." up 2 db on channels 7/8...

What you wind up with is a putrid mess of audio pudding. Just a blob of unlistenable screechy, muddy crap.

If folks would just mix to -12 or even -6 instead of zero and leave some headroom, you can always make up the gain after the fact and end up with a loud, CLEAN mix.

Ok.. gotta stop. Audio nerd taking over completely.

I saw someone mention Mark McQuilken and the deliciously inexpensive FMR Audio gear upthread....

This could be very, very bad for my productivity...

Brian

If I could join in this lovefest,I've heard a good amount of Steven's music and I like a lot of it.Not all,but a lot.
I'd love to hear some of yours John.

All this talk has made me think I may change my mind on the eric johnson strat for now.

I am thinking of acoustic recordings... and efficiency such as a nice electric acoustic that might sound good being run direct...

Played one of these at a music store for two hours...Just couldnt put it down...they are awesome. Seem like they would make great guitars for running direct:

Taylor T5 Standard Spruce Guitar at zZounds

Use to write on a taylor 810 who I named "George"..., perhaps this time around it will be a T5.

Cool. Im honestly not worried about the contract... but Im excited to work on some music! You arent going anywhere, you are a Warrior,. This may be like a year long project or even more though...from the pitching perspective.

I need to do it for me too Steven. I have done offline for the last 15 years and totally forgot about music. It at least deserves an hour a day. And at this age I can get alot more out of an hour than I used to. But sure, as soon as you can start cranking demo's this way, great!

I wonder if theres a place where people can meet online to record.

I say we make a goal of cutting 3 "primo" songs,

Sounds good Steve, if you could send the mp3's to johndurham1969 at Yahoo. com that would be an awesome start.

You asked about technology but the universe knows the deeper question..."How do I get a cut?"

Recording is an art, it will depend heavily on equipment but also the environment you are recording in, rooms can amplify certain frequencies due to the harmonics on the room and you must be careful recording if you have a road or noisey environment near by as it is a lot harder to try and make a rubbish recording sound good through mix and mastering than starting with a clean signal. I would advise learning the the basic mic techniques like AB, XY and learn about mixing especially what db the separate parts should be hitting to create headroom so your track can breath.

This is a supremely interesting thread to me.

I got the songwriting bug around 17 years ago or so. I bought myself a used 4 track analog recorder and laid down some of the most atrocious songs man has never witnessed. I didn't do it for fame, money, or anyone else... I did it because it was a release for me. I can probably count on one hand the number of people I ever intentionally let listen to my recordings.

I had no money and I had worse than awful equipment. I sang through guitar stomp boxes and twiddled the knobs in real time for "special effects". My mic was held together by masking tape. The spring reverb on my guitar amp was messed up and made the strangest sounds - that I used to my advantage whenever I could.

What I captured was mostly complete garbage, but it was garbage full of raw emotion and loads of creativity, no matter how misdirected it might have seemed. I learned a ton about working within the confines of what I had.

Over the years, both my equipment and my songs improved, but I still had no interest in making it public in any way.

I never believed I was good, and still don't, but I had a LOT of fun doing it. Eventually I became so absorbed in it, that I ended up stopping completely, just as a drug addict needs to do when they realize their addiction. That was around 7 years ago.

Since quitting recording, from time to time I would pull out a CD of some of my more tolerable tracks and listen to them as I drive. A little trip down memory lane, if you will...

About a year ago, I started getting mysterious questions from some of my friends. These were people that were not around during my "musician" era. They started asking questions about my songs, which had me royally confused... How did they find out?

Here's what had happened:

A teenage boy that I knew, and loved dearly, had apparently seen one of my CDs in my car and his curiosity got the better of him. One day, unbeknownst to me, he took the CD, ripped it to his laptop, and put the CD back. I had no clue.

I found out later that he was a huge fan of some of my songs, but he had never mentioned it to me at all. He would often sing one of my songs to his mother and told her that he was going to sing that song at her funeral someday. Apparently, it was very special to both of them.

How did I find out about all of this?

The boy died in a very tragic work related accident last year. When the family was going through his belongings, they found my music on his laptop. The mother wanted to know who wrote the song he used to sing to her. No one knew, but someone suggested it possibly could have been me. So the questions began...

And I admitted that, yes, I wrote those songs. I asked my own question, "How did you find out about them?" and the story came out...

Not long after, I was told how grateful the mother was for my song, that she found much comfort in it during the grieving for the loss of her boy. She never would have believed that he would leave this earth before her, but knowing the depth of his love for her, as expressed through that song, meant the world to her.

Hearing that my song had helped someone through a very difficult time meant more to me than any other reward ever could have.

I suspect if I could have known this years ago, I might have been more responsible with my music, and that I might have been more willing to share it with the world. Hard to know, I guess.

What I have learned is that whatever talents we have, we have for a reason, and burying them is at the very best... poor stewardship. With a bit more wisdom and a lot more care, I hope to re-open the music making chapter of my life and try to use it as it was intended this time.

Not for my own pleasure, but for the benefit of others.

"Plus, words like that just don't come out of me, maybe in part because I'm
afraid that if they do I'll see a side of myself that I've never seen before."

That's when you find out....you're not alone. You'll show others that side in themselves that maybe they felt, but have been afraid to look at. In turn, they'll see THEY'RE not alone either...

And THATS who'll buy your music.

Think Im going to break down and get this Steven... Its gonna be a long project , might as well get some tools.

http://www.zzounds.com/item--TAS2488NEOPACK

I could get what I need for $800 down and 300 per month for ten months. Need to create an income stream just for that.