The Reason WF Sellers Hate & Fear Me...

by Brutal
69 replies
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I have noticed a recurring theme here on WF. Sellers tend to hate/fear me.

No, it isn't because I refund on products (I rarely refund - In fact, I think it was 2010 the last time I ever refunded on anything).

They tend to dislike me because I read their entire sales letter and ask them valid questions.

Sound odd?... It really isn't.

Over the years I have written a multitude of sales letters, and in most of those letters I actually took great care to misdirect people with my words.

To structure things so that you (the reader) wouldn't think of asking me the right questions (the questions I didn't want you to ask because it wouldn't be good for sales).

Before I go any further, let me point out that I no longer deal in the underhanded side of Internet Marketing. My eyes were opened in 2010 and since that time I have never mislead or overstated anything on any product I have developed or sold.

I went beyond white hat. I went into "Truth" marketing.

Now I simply help other people to see the truth. It doesn't matter if the truth is good or bad, I simply help expose it.

I do it by simply asking questions to sellers who have some product or service that I am personally interested in purchasing (so, no, I don't just pick on people randomly).

I read their sales letter while fully understanding their tactics no matter how well disguised they are, and if there are comments, I read every single one of those as well.

And then I ask the right questions. The questions that if the sellers promotional material is completely legit, he/she will have no issue responding to, but if they got a little to creative and crossed that line into outright deception, they cringe at seeing my questions.

Some respond on the thread defensively (a really bad idea), some do not respond at all (really the best idea, even though it exposes the truth), and some send me PM's asking me to not "throw them under the bus".

I don't attack these people. I simply ask the questions that the average person does no know to ask.

The results so far strongly indicate that I will not be receiving Christmas cards from many sellers here on WF.

This morning I woke up thinking about - "MORE" - What more can I do to be an asset to the Internet Marketing community.

I don't sell or promote anything that isn't 100% above-board, I don't give fake testimonials just because a seller decides to comp me a free copy of his product, I only give full reviews to products that I have purchased myself, and I don't refund no matter how crappy the product is... So, I already do more for the IM community than most.

But, back to MORE...

For those of you here that haven't quite "made it" yet, and you're trying your best to learn, you are taking action, but money is limited, every penny counts and you need to make sure you don't throw away your limited resources on another re-hashed useless product that isn't going to offer you any benefit, I'll help you.

If you have your eye on some product either here on WF or somewhere else and it sounds amazing, but you just aren't sure, just get in touch with me and point me to the sales page.

I'll go over their sales material and I'll tell you the right questions to ask that seller (or I'll ask them for you if you prefer to avoid potential confrontation).

When you ask the right questions to a seller who uses deceptive wording and misdirection in his sales material (he does this to hide the fact that his product may have zero value, or less), he does not like it.

Either way, you ask, or I'll ask for you, but we will get a much better idea of the truth depending on how that seller replies (if he replies).

People are "good" by their very nature, and sometimes a good person will "embellish" on their sales letter because they do not see it as talking to a person, they see it more like standing on a corner shouting out their offer to everyone.

However, when faced with answering a direct question from a "real person" they really don't want to lie, so they will respond in 1 of 3 ways...

[1] They will attack you in some way for asking the question.
[2] They will ignore your question and hope you go away.
[3] They will reply with additional misdirection to sway the topic away from your core question.

[4] They actually tell the truth.

It is your money on the line. Your money and your time. You are working toward achieving something, you are willing to invest both time and money, so you deserve to know that you are spending both as wisely as possible.

So, if you want help in assessing a product you are considering purchasing, just get in touch with me and I'll help you out so that you can make your purchase decision based more on sound information than on emotion.

And in case you are wondering - No, you don't have to pay me or join my mailing list or anything else. This "is what it is". I'm just offering to help from one marketer to another. No strings attached.

I'm just keeping them honest.
Brutal.
  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    The results so far strongly indicate that I will not be receiving Christmas cards from many sellers here on WF.
    Maybe not. But if you do what you claim you're doing, you might get one from the moderators.


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  • Profile picture of the author Brutal
    I had not thought of that Paul - You're right! I might get a Christmas card or two after all!
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Here's a bit of advice...

    If you start regularly asking tough questions, some people will give you straight answers. Some, however, will just report you, claiming you have no interest in the product and are trying to derail their threads.

    When we see those reports, we have to make decisions. The rules are pretty specific about trying to tank an offer without solid basis. You can make it really easy on us by sticking to logical questions that a smart customer would ask. Don't lean them toward one direction or another. Just get the facts.

    Basically, don't make the questions look like veiled accusations.

    Do that, and you become the buyer's best friend. Which gets you brownie points with the Mod Squad. You can't really redeem those for anything, but they carry a nice "feel good" factor.


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  • Profile picture of the author Brutal
    It's the Feel-Good factor that I am interested in. And yes, when I ask questions they are valid, on topic, and based strictly on logic rather than emotion. The whole reason that many people do not think to ask the hard questions is because they are functioning on emotion rather than logic (as most sales letters are designed to achieve this). I don't try to sway or lean anyone in any direction at all. I just ask legitimate questions based upon the sales thread as well as any posted comments when they are available.

    I have absolutely no interest in hurting someones sales. My interest is in helping people/buyers in general to see the whole of the situation rather than just the points they are steered toward focusing on.

    We have all purchased things online and once we received the product, something along the lines of "well, that really isn't fair" came to mind because the difference between what we thought the sales page was offering us, and the actual product we received was massive.

    I just want to help people make good and informed decisions based on fact.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Originally Posted by Brutal View Post

      I just want to help people make good and informed decisions based on fact.
      Any more at home like you?

      We'll take 12, for immediate delivery.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
    Banned
    Originally Posted by Brutal View Post

    ...and I don't refund no matter how crappy the product is...
    So let me get this straight...

    On the one hand you think you're offering this as a service to others on the WF. To 'help others' avoid in your mind 'crappy dishonest offers' yet...

    You admit yourself to selling crap.

    You stated...

    "I don't refund no matter how crappy the product is."

    In other words you self-admit that it's perfectly okay for you to sell 'crap' and when you do so...

    ...it's perfectly okay in your esteemed view to not offer any refunds.

    Basically you'll take their money and run. Whilst trying to position yourself as the upright, honest, go-to guy for help for anyone indecisive about buying a product or service from somebody else.

    I'm thinking this is a massive contradiction in terms and you shot your credibility right there, straight in the foot.

    How can you sit there (as a complete newbie on this forum) ready and waiting to field questions about other well established Warrior Members offers when you sell 'crap' yourself?

    What a load of bumkum. Complete hogwash. I call BS.

    A word of advice to you...

    On this forum your interests will be better served putting high quality products together yourself and concentrating on your own business rather than looking to criticize other Warrior Members and wasting their time.

    There's a saying...

    Before you go looking for a splinter in someone else's eye - take the rafter out of your own eye first.


    Mark Andrews
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    • Profile picture of the author Dave Patterson
      Originally Posted by Mark Andrews View Post

      So let me get this straight...

      On the one hand you think you're offering this as a service to others on the WF. To 'help others' avoid in your mind 'crappy dishonest offers' yet...

      You admit yourself to selling crap.

      You stated...

      "I don't refund no matter how crappy the product is."

      In other words you self-admit that it's perfectly okay for you to sell 'crap' and when you do so...

      ...it's perfectly okay in your esteemed view to not offer any refunds.

      Basically you'll take their money and run. Whilst trying to position yourself as the upright, honest, go-to guy for help for anyone indecisive about buying a product or service from somebody else.

      I'm thinking this is a massive contradiction in terms and you shot your credibility right there, straight in the foot.

      How can you sit there (as a complete newbie on this forum) ready and waiting to field questions about other well established Warrior Members offers when you sell 'crap' yourself?

      What a load of bumkum. Complete hogwash. I call BS.

      A word of advice to you...

      On this forum your interests will be better served putting high quality products together yourself and concentrating on your own business rather than looking to criticize other Warrior Members and wasting their time.

      There's a saying...

      Before you go looking for a splinter in someone else's eye - take the rafter out of your own eye first.


      Mark Andrews
      Ummm, Mark. Maybe read his OP again. I think you've misunderstood what he said.

      I believe he's saying he hasn't ASKED for a refund since 2010, no matter how crappy the product he may have PURCHASED himself.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Mark,
        I've given him an infraction for posting up such absurd remarks, I'll bow out now. No problem.
        I can understand that. Most of the people who claim to be looking for unbiased truth are really pushing an agenda. But if the guy does what he says he wants to do, we can use a dozen of him here.

        If he plays it like most of the folks before him have, and tries to game the system somehow, he'll out himself soon enough. If not, we ought to be welcoming him into the fold.

        Starting from valid assumptions, logic is the best moderator of all.


        Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
        Banned
        Like I said, terrible framing because it can just as easily be read two ways Dave.

        He also stated that he's a marketer himself, selling products and then went on to make his comments about crap products and not refunding.

        This can easily be read two ways. The one he intended to make an impression upon lost in the confusion of his own wording.

        Intended? Now, looking back, probably not.

        Aware of what he stated? Again, probably not.

        But then, this all just proves that for the service he's offering to others here (and wasting in the meantime) other Warrior's time... he's not really qualified or in a good position as a complete newbie on this forum to be offering this as a 'service' to other people.

        Free or not, he should have paid for this thread in one of the other paid for sections of the WF... (He's actually positioning himself here and seeking obviously to build up his own credibility afterall, therefore 'selling' something to others even if the advice / questions he's offering/asking comes 'free')... Just like all the rest of us have to pay for services or products offered here. Not putting it here in the Off Topic forum. Off Topic is off topic in other words not talking specifically about Internet marketing.

        Kindest regards,


        Mark Andrews
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by Mark Andrews View Post

          Like I said, terrible framing because it can just as easily be read two ways Dave.

          He also stated that he's a marketer himself, selling products and then went on to make his comments about crap products and not refunding.

          This can easily be read two ways. The one he intended to make an impression upon lost in the confusion of his own wording.

          Intended? Now, looking back, probably not.

          Aware of what he stated? Again, probably not.

          But then, this all just proves that for the service he's offering to others here (and wasting in the meantime) other Warrior's time... he's not really qualified or in a good position as a complete newbie on this forum to be offering this as a 'service' to other people.

          Free or not, he should have paid for this thread in one of the other paid for sections of the WF... (He's actually positioning himself here and seeking obviously to build up his own credibility afterall, therefore 'selling' something to others even if the advice / questions he's offering/asking comes 'free')... Just like all the rest of us have to pay for services or products offered here. Not putting it here in the Off Topic forum. Off Topic is off topic in other words not talking specifically about Internet marketing.

          Kindest regards,


          Mark Andrews
          Mark, cut the guy some slack.

          1. There are no links in his sig.

          2. Everything he said makes 100% sense.

          3. As Paul said, if he has an agenda, he'll out himself eventually.

          For example, if somebody PMs him about a WSO and he says he'll look it
          over and ask the questions and then in passing says, "Hey, I have this great
          mentorship program" or whatever, we'll know he's got an agenda (as long as
          somebody reports him) and can be dealt with accordingly.

          But until then, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

          Because let's face it, if more people did what he says they should do, a lot
          of these WSO sellers would be put out of business.

          My 2 cents on the subject.
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        What a delightful post. Thank you.

        As a seller, I welcome any and all questions. Sadly, what I have found in 9 years
        of marketing online is that most people are too lazy to even do that. They just
        buy on impulse and then, when the product wasn't what they expected (and in
        many cases the purchase could have been avoided just by asking a few questions)
        they ask for a refund.

        I never have a problem answering questions, even tough ones.

        In fact, I have flat out told people many times who ask things like "How much
        work does this involve" that if they're not willing to put in a considerable
        amount of time and effort into this, don't waste your money.

        I'd rather have fewer sales than more refunds because the person buying
        finds out that it's NOT a push button solution.

        I have had my sales letter criticized by many "top" copywriters as being weak.

        What they really mean is that I don't push hard enough for the sale by making
        my product sound like the greatest thing since sliced bread. And certainly
        you NEVER put on a sales letter things like "This takes work" as that will lose
        many sales.

        I've never done things by the "book" as they say and so far it hasn't hurt me
        much. No, I don't make 7 figures a year with these overblown launches. But
        I've done well enough to be able to retire and look for a buyer for my business.

        Honestly, I don't miss the daily grind anymore. I'm having too much fun doing
        other things. I work a day a week and the rest of the time I cater to my
        hobbies, mostly music and playing games. In fact, I just finished my first CD in
        close to 2 years on the 18th of this month. It felt really good.

        Truth is, if more people would just ask the hard questions when considering
        purchasing a "how to make money" product, we wouldn't have half the
        problems that we do because a good number of these snake oil salesmen
        would be out of business.

        But we live in a society where most people are like sheep, believe the hype
        and dive in hoping and praying that it's true. I know because 9 years ago
        I used to be one of those sheep. I believed everything I read. I fell for one
        scam after another, even getting involved in an HYIP once. Man, what a
        mistake that was. Fortunately, I only lost a few hundred dollars. Some people
        lost thousands or worse, their life savings.

        The marketing world is full of praetors who will take you for everything you
        have. But if you just ask the tough questions, you can save yourself a lot
        of grief.

        To the OP...thank you.

        This is one seller you WILL be getting a Christmas card from this year.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Mark,

    Slow down, dude. He said he doesn't ASK for refunds often, even if the product is "crappy."


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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
      Banned
      Fair enough Paul (dreadful framing in that case) but my fingers are just ripping to have a go at this guy.

      I've given him an infraction for posting up such absurd remarks, I'll bow out now. No problem.


      Mark Andrews
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  • Profile picture of the author Brutal
    Yes Mark, there was a time when I sold crap products - and yes, I gave people refunds without issue (after all, I certainly knew it was rehashed crap I was selling).

    In my post above I said that I do not ask for refunds. It does not matter how terrible a product might be. If I buy it, I do not ask for a refund on it.

    And yes Mark, I was one of the bad guys. (or one of the good guys, depends on which side of the isle you were on). Other marketers liked me just fine, plenty of buyers liked me just fine (they would buy anything I released because they trusted me).

    But it didn't matter that marketers liked me, didn't matter that a lot of customers liked me, what mattered is that I didn't like me. So I changed me.

    If I ask someone a question they do not want to answer, but the question[s] asked are valid, then it becomes their problem, not mine. I only asked a question that I felt was pertinent to the offer. No more or less.
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  • Profile picture of the author Brutal
    Thanks Steven - If the net was full of sellers who approach things like you say you do, the internet marketing community would certainly be an entirely different experience (a very positive one).
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Brutal View Post

      Thanks Steven - If the net was full of sellers who approach things like you say you do, the internet marketing community would certainly be an entirely different experience (a very positive one).
      Well, it's one of the reasons why, after 9 years, I want to get out of this
      business. I just don't have the stomach for a lot of the crap that I used to see
      on a daily basis and am thus trying to avoid.

      Problem is, you can't avoid what's out there if you want to stay competitive.
      You have to know what's popular. You have to know what buyers want. You
      have to be aware marketing tactics and avenues. You can't bury your head
      in the sand and have any clue what the competition is doing.

      I don't remember the last time I looked at somebody else's sales letter other
      than Paul Myers' and that's because with Paul, I know what I'm getting. He's
      a straight shooter. Yeah, he's a great copywriter and knows how to highlight
      the beef, but I can read between the lines and know what I'm getting.

      I've never purchased anything from Paul that I was sorry about. And that's
      mostly because Paul has such high standards as to what he sells (if it's
      something by another marketer like Paul Hancox who has great stuff) there
      is no way I'd get something from him that was crap.

      But I can count the Paul Myers of this world on one hand.

      Take a look at some of the WSOs listed. The other day, by accident, I
      clicked on a wrong link and was directed to a WSO that was...wait for it...
      shut down and the poster banned because of faked scream shots.

      Forget that the "offer" was cryptic as hell.

      This is the kind of stuff I have no stomach for anymore.

      I really do want to sell my business. Sadly, I probably won't find a buyer
      because of the platform I've built it on. It's not glitzy enough for the
      marketer who wants to make a "killing" in this business. There is too much
      transparency and too many ONE YEAR GUARANTEE sales pages.

      Marketers don't like that stuff.

      If I'm forced to keep it, which it looks like I will be, maybe I can pass it on
      to my daughter. She seems to have no interest, but maybe as she gets older
      that will change. I don't know. I can only hope.

      Anyway, I've rambled on long enough. Again, I agree with your OP.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
    Banned
    Originally Posted by Brutal View Post

    I have noticed a recurring theme here on WF. Sellers tend to hate/fear me.

    No, it isn't because I refund on products (I rarely refund - In fact, I think it was 2010 the last time I ever refunded on anything).

    They tend to dislike me because I read their entire sales letter and ask them valid questions.

    Sound odd?... It really isn't.

    Over the years I have written a multitude of sales letters, and in most of those letters I actually took great care to misdirect people with my words.

    To structure things so that you (the reader) wouldn't think of asking me the right questions (the questions I didn't want you to ask because it wouldn't be good for sales).

    Before I go any further, let me point out that I no longer deal in the underhanded side of Internet Marketing. My eyes were opened in 2010 and since that time I have never mislead or overstated anything on any product I have developed or sold.

    I went beyond white hat. I went into "Truth" marketing.

    Now I simply help other people to see the truth. It doesn't matter if the truth is good or bad, I simply help expose it.

    I do it by simply asking questions to sellers who have some product or service that I am personally interested in purchasing (so, no, I don't just pick on people randomly).

    I read their sales letter while fully understanding their tactics no matter how well disguised they are, and if there are comments, I read every single one of those as well.

    And then I ask the right questions. The questions that if the sellers promotional material is completely legit, he/she will have no issue responding to, but if they got a little to creative and crossed that line into outright deception, they cringe at seeing my questions.

    Some respond on the thread defensively (a really bad idea), some do not respond at all (really the best idea, even though it exposes the truth), and some send me PM's asking me to not "throw them under the bus".

    I don't attack these people. I simply ask the questions that the average person does no know to ask.

    The results so far strongly indicate that I will not be receiving Christmas cards from many sellers here on WF.

    This morning I woke up thinking about - "MORE" - What more can I do to be an asset to the Internet Marketing community.

    I don't sell or promote anything that isn't 100% above-board, I don't give fake testimonials just because a seller decides to comp me a free copy of his product, I only give full reviews to products that I have purchased myself, and I don't refund no matter how crappy the product is... So, I already do more for the IM community than most.

    But, back to MORE...

    For those of you here that haven't quite "made it" yet, and you're trying your best to learn, you are taking action, but money is limited, every penny counts and you need to make sure you don't throw away your limited resources on another re-hashed useless product that isn't going to offer you any benefit, I'll help you.

    If you have your eye on some product either here on WF or somewhere else and it sounds amazing, but you just aren't sure, just get in touch with me and point me to the sales page.

    I'll go over their sales material and I'll tell you the right questions to ask that seller (or I'll ask them for you if you prefer to avoid potential confrontation).

    When you ask the right questions to a seller who uses deceptive wording and misdirection in his sales material (he does this to hide the fact that his product may have zero value, or less), he does not like it.

    Either way, you ask, or I'll ask for you, but we will get a much better idea of the truth depending on how that seller replies (if he replies).

    People are "good" by their very nature, and sometimes a good person will "embellish" on their sales letter because they do not see it as talking to a person, they see it more like standing on a corner shouting out their offer to everyone.

    However, when faced with answering a direct question from a "real person" they really don't want to lie, so they will respond in 1 of 3 ways...

    [1] They will attack you in some way for asking the question.
    [2] They will ignore your question and hope you go away.
    [3] They will reply with additional misdirection to sway the topic away from your core question.

    [4] They actually tell the truth.

    It is your money on the line. Your money and your time. You are working toward achieving something, you are willing to invest both time and money, so you deserve to know that you are spending both as wisely as possible.

    So, if you want help in assessing a product you are considering purchasing, just get in touch with me and I'll help you out so that you can make your purchase decision based more on sound information than on emotion.

    And in case you are wondering - No, you don't have to pay me or join my mailing list or anything else. This "is what it is". I'm just offering to help from one marketer to another. No strings attached.

    I'm just keeping them honest.
    Brutal.
    Bold text highlights some rather confusing lines especially with their positioning in the rest of the text.

    First impressions count afterall.


    Mark Andrews
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  • Profile picture of the author salegurus
    I read some of Brutal's previous posts and they all seem fair enough?
    And like he said out of the 4 i read, 1 Seller ignored, 2 posted replies that make sense
    and 1 went on the attack.
    In agreeing with Paul, if the questions are based on fact and are not designed
    to interfere or sabotage then i see no problem.

    PS. Don't know what you did to offend Mark but that's not my business.
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  • Profile picture of the author Brutal
    Steven - I lost my 'stomach' for it too. Turned away from it and just did my own thing for the last couple of years (yes - up front sorts of things that no one would feel bad about). It has only been recently that I decided to come back to the IM community, but on a different level. I have nothing to sell to anyone here, I have no lists for anyone to join. But I do have a lot of experience as a buyer and seller, and that experience can be put to good use in the IM community by simply helping people ask the right questions before they make a purchase.

    Side note: I was so addicted to buying info products online that I eventually had to put myself on the 24 hour rule. If I find a product I want, I make myself wait 24 hours before purchasing just so that my mind has time to clear away any emotion driven thoughts.

    Those 24 hours probably save me over 10k per year in wasted money.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    I read the letter and understood it fine.
    There are language differences between us in the USA and those in the UK.
    Chalk it up to a misunderstanding and lets move on.

    Brutal,
    Having such a recent join date also makes one leery of your intentions at times.
    This is the first post by you that I have seen.
    I am not an eloquent writer,but I am honest in what I say,and I certainly hope your intentions are as stated. If they are, you will garner many fans very quickly.
    If they aren't, well, the Mods here will handle it as they see fit.
    That being said, Welcome!
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  • Profile picture of the author Brutal
    "No, it isn't because I refund on products (I rarely refund - In fact, I think it was 2010 the last time I ever refunded on anything)."

    You highlighted only a portion of a single complete sentence.

    When you take a line or words out of a sentence, that sentence becomes obscured from it's original intent. If however you look at that sentence as a whole (just as it is written) then there is no doubt of my intended statement.

    I have re-read the other points you highlighted, I am simply not seeing that any of those statements are not clear. I will be happy to clarify, but I do have to ask that you re-word any questions about those statements to be more specific so that I understand and can provide you with accurate replies.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
      Banned
      Originally Posted by salegurus View Post

      PS. Don't know what you did to offend Mark but that's not my business.
      I'm not offended by it, I just thought it was a bit rich coming from somebody who self-admitted selling crap in the very recent past framing this thread in this manner.

      I only offer copywriting, you'll find no other offers from me because I concentrate on offering just the one service. (Although this may change in the near future).

      The reason I haven't offered anything else to date and believe you me I've written more than a few products out here, is precisely because they don't meet up with my own exacting high standards.

      If I'm not offering the absolute highest quality product which I know I'm capable of putting together by my own self-regulation, I scrap it after allowing the product to incubate for a few days.

      In other words, I demand of myself to put out there nothing but the very best information I can to help other people.

      Now we have a complete newbie to the forum...

      ...someone who has been here for less than a month offering to police other Warrior members products and services.

      And potentially wasting their time despite the fact that they very well may have put hours, if not weeks of their time into making this offer available to help other members of this community.

      Blood, sweat and tears to put their best effort out there and along comes some 'nameless newbie' to pick holes in their offer to potentially damage their sales funnel and business reputation.

      I'm sorry but I'm not buying it. Especially when his username is Brutal. :rolleyes:

      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      There are language differences between us in the USA and those in the UK.

      Chalk it up to a misunderstanding and lets move on.
      Valid point Kim. Many things which are said on Internet marketing forums get lost in translation.

      American English and British English are both obviously the same language but they're both exceedingly different from one another on a massive number of levels.

      For now, I'll give you 'Brutal' the benefit of the doubt taking this point into consideration.


      Mark Andrews
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  • Profile picture of the author Brutal
    Thanks cranky old man! I appreciate that (on every level).
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  • Profile picture of the author Halcyon
    On the surface I can appreciate the OP comments, but perhaps it would work better as a classified ad? The "I am the seeker of WF truth" manifesto seems...i dunno...like overkill.

    But Paul says give him a break so we'll see.
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  • Profile picture of the author Brutal
    For the record guys - It isn't like I'm anti-seller or anything... Earlier this week I found that a WF members product was openly available for download (clearly not the sellers intention since he was.... selling it), and I contacted him to tell him where/how it was found and even gave some advice on not only moving it to a more secure location, but how to go ahead and capitalize on the listing he already had there.
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  • Profile picture of the author bravo75
    So when will we see your "dontgetscammed.com type site in your sig? You're doing all this out of the goodness of your heart? If you are, then you are a better man than me.
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  • Profile picture of the author Halcyon
    To be fair,

    This is a prime example of the pack mentality that scares away many newbies. Had Pack Leader Paul not come in and given the chill-out signal, we would've been all over him. Me possibly leading the attack.

    I'm still circling but I will respect the pack decision and continue to sniff.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
      Banned
      Pardon me do but I'll just cock a back leg and move on.
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  • Profile picture of the author Brutal
    Ha! Bravo75, no, there is no dontgetscammed site and not going to be.
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    • Profile picture of the author KimW
      Originally Posted by Brutal View Post

      Ha! Bravo75, no, there is no dontgetscammed site and not going to be.
      Well dang it,give me a few more minutes!!
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      • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
        Hi Brutal,

        I have to admit that I share some of Mark's misgivings about this. Not about the actual wording of the OP, more about the motive behind it.

        Intelligent and on-point questioning of WSO sales letters is to be applauded. If you were to do that on a regular basis while staying within the forum guidelines, you'd quickly build a positive reputation among would-be buyers and be recognized as providing a valuable service.

        But starting a thread, using the tried and tested sales copy technique of setting yourself up as a champion of the underdog - I'm here to save you from the unscrupulous sellers - and calling yourself "Brutal" with the self-appointed strapline "keeping them honest" smacks of simple positioning. It wouldn't be the first time someone has entered this board with such lofty claims in an effort to garner some instant credibility.

        Calling out those newcomers isn't joining the pack - it's just the protective instincts of longer-term members coming to the fore.

        If I'm being unfair, then just take my questioning of your OP in the same spirit as your WSO questions are intended.

        At least now it would seem you've captured a degree of attention, so you'll have the chance to demonstrate your talents.

        Good luck!

        Frank
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    I have had my sales letter criticized by many "top" copywriters as being weak.
    Most marketers learn marketing - including their language skills from other marketers. All they really know are the basic little tricks that you can get in socio-linguistics 101.

    When I put out my PLR ebooks and reports, I stick to the facts - subject covered, word count, rights that come with it, sometimes my background in the subject, etc. Invariably there is someone that rails me for not hyping the page. It leaves me stunned that people think that EVERYTHING and ANYTHING has to be hyped to sell it. Seems to me a webmaster already knows what type of material they want and need for their marketing purposes. They of all people should be privvy to marketing illusions.

    I would feel absolutely anywhere from amateurish to completely idiotic hyping a PLR sales page. Good grief. I KNOW how to manipulate language - I took years of linguistics and cognitive sciences. I have an ebook on how the mind and language work -- yet people tell me you can't sell without hype. Funny - I see people do it every day. I just don't see it done in IM niches very often. Go figure.
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  • Profile picture of the author Brutal
    Frank, yes. My screen name, my tag line - it is all 100% positioning. I knew what I wanted to do well before I ever arrived here on WF.

    However, making clear my intentions (positioning) doesn't negate that position at all. I have been embarrassingly and humiliatingly honest in this forum (me being the one to be embarrassed & humiliated) by actually pointing out my past deeds and behaviors.

    I came to the WF with 3 objectives in mind.

    -- Enjoy the interactions and community
    -- Pick up some great products that help me to achieve things I am doing in my own businesses.
    -- Help out people who still haven't learned how to purchase without emotion.

    The fact that this post garnered attention from some obviously very accomplished marketers is absolutely outstanding, but it will not change my position.

    I will continue to do those things. It's what I do.

    Those that have misgivings about my motives. Outstanding! I appreciate that on every level, and I'll continue to hope that some of you advanced marketers will look in on sales threads occasionally with the same misgivings that you display toward me for offering my help, and when some guy is telling people that if they buy his product they too can rich and beautiful over night, and ultimately that you will read his sales letter, "see" what he is directing you away from, formulate questions based upon his positioning, and simply ask for clarifications where things aren't clear.

    I'm not saying that some of you don't already do this - I am certain that you do, but you are severely out numbered and I'm going to pitch in and help.

    I have not in any way at any point been inappropriate with a seller via the questions I ask. Each question asked has been a valid question based on the sellers description of the product he is offering.

    I have not (yet) asked any seller any questions if he is not selling a product that I am personally considering purchasing. I have asked questions that as a buyer I need an answer to in order to make an informed buying decision.

    I have no interest in being anyone's enemy, I do however have interest in being sure that I am making a well informed purchase decision before I actually whip out that credit card.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
      Originally Posted by Brutal View Post

      I have been embarrassingly and humiliatingly honest in this forum (me being the one to be embarrassed & humiliated) by actually pointing out my past deeds and behaviors.
      You're using a pseudonym, not your real name. No one knows who you are. Your fake persona has been embarrassed and humiliated? Sorry, but it's meaningless. That's the kind of misdirection you speak against.

      Whenever I see posts like your opening one, I'm reminded of this quotation:
      "The louder he talked of his honor, the faster we counted our spoons."
      -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
      Having said all that, I am an optimist and prefer to think most people consider themselves to be a good person, and so try to be, so all I can say is . . . we'll see.

      Choosing "Brutal" for a user name doesn't exactly shout "trust me" to me. Using a pseudonym is reason enough to be skeptical. I'm not saying you're NOT what you say you are, I'm just saying I'll wait and see.

      I hope you are sincere. To be honest, I'd be more surprised by that than by the other way around. So ... welcome to the forum.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    Brutal,
    You are just getting the Off-Topic initiation By Fire treatment.
    So far you've held up pretty well.

    There is a core group you run into down here that are honest and put up with a lot less crud than in the upstairs forums. While we interact in both professional and casual ways,we,like you, are not afraid to speak our mind and say such and such is jink if it is. I's say a fair amount are asked to review and give testimonials for WSOs. I sometimes do and they are often not used because I told the truth about the product. I'm sure some others down here don't even entertain the idea of doing that anymore.
    Another honest and ethical person is always welcome down here,but you must have a think skinned.Can't take things said down here as personal.
    I don't think anyone wants to be enemies either.
    Sit down,shoot the breeze and enjoy your stay if you like.
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  • Profile picture of the author Brutal
    Thanks KimW, I appreciate that.

    Dennis, yes, I use a pseudonym, it stems from a part of my past shame that I have yet to live down. I don't want people to know my real name, I don't want them to see my face. I don't want them to remember me.

    What I do want is for them to have to look at this pseudonym (me) and base their opinions on it's (my) actions. I have as a matter of record been doing exactly what I say. I ask people valid and legitimate questions and then respond as appropriately as possible, without emotion.

    As for the name "Brutal"... I just think it's a cool screen name, and it does actually sort of fit since my back-off button broke.

    I'm not at all comfortable in confrontational situations, but over the years I learned not to avoid them simply because they make me uncomfortable. Instead, I participate as best I can with as little emotion as possible, since it is usually emotion that makes us say things we usually wish we never said.

    So, I'll continue to do my best at being an asset on WF by doing my share to help others. Sure, I want acceptance and friendship from the masses just like any human being is hard-wired to desire, but the absolute lack of either or both of those things does not deter me from my position or intent.

    When I find something I am considering buying, I'm going to ask the questions that I feel need asking, and if someone PM's me and asks me to help them in some way to be sure that their buying decision is well founded, I'm going to do that (with or without approval or acceptance from others).

    So, while you look at me to "wait and see" I'll go ahead and just keep doing what I do, and hopefully at some point the conversation will be pointed more at people who are using extremely deceptive sales practices than it is at me for asking questions that tend to expose those practices.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    Good response. I've seen some of your questions in one WSO. They were useful, and one of them was one I had in mind to ask.

    I didn't think anything about you at the time, other than saying "good questions" to myself. It was the nature of this thread that opened my mind up to wondering about you. You could have done what you say you want to do without opening yourself up to questioning, and you surely knew that going in, so why do it?
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  • Profile picture of the author Brutal
    Dennis - Yeah, i knew what would happen when I made this post (well, maybe not 100%, but I certainly knew the possibility and probability were both high).

    I did it because I know that all of these questions will come out eventually. So, (in my mind) the question that I asked myself was this: Do I make myself uncomfortable and risk being ostracized all at once and right up front, or do I allow it to all just drip out in little pieces over time and avoid the potential massive blast of extreme discomfort.

    When I weigh it all out (a lot of discomfort now and little to no discomfort later .vs. a little discomfort spread out over a longer time period with the potential of ongoing damaging attacks on my based on my past), my choice was to go ahead and get it all out now.

    Get me? - If anyone attacks me later, I'll simply be able to refer them to this thread (and other threads) and tell them that I have already been through the fire, and they will find their answers here (rather then me continually going over everything attempting to constantly defend myself).
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    • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Brutal View Post

      Dennis - Yeah, i knew what would happen when I made this post (well, maybe not 100%, but I certainly knew the possibility and probability were both high).

      I did it because I know that all of these questions will come out eventually. So, (in my mind) the question that I asked myself was this: Do I make myself uncomfortable and risk being ostracized all at once and right up front, or do I allow it to all just drip out in little pieces over time and avoid the potential massive blast of extreme discomfort.

      When I weigh it all out (a lot of discomfort now and little to no discomfort later .vs. a little discomfort spread out over a longer time period with the potential of ongoing damaging attacks on my based on my past), my choice was to go ahead and get it all out now.

      Get me? - If anyone attacks me later, I'll simply be able to refer them to this thread (and other threads) and tell them that I have already been through the fire, and they will find their answers here (rather then me continually going over everything attempting to constantly defend myself).
      If that is your mindset, then why stick with the pseudonym? Questions about that will surely drip in over time, and eventually boil over all the same. Are you really getting it all out now?
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  • Profile picture of the author Brutal
    Joe - yeah, I'm getting all out that I want out. Posting my pretty face and real name may indeed help people who want to add more fuel to the flame in their attack on who I was, but it does absolutely nothing for the people that I set out to assist in some way.

    Now, if I slap up a sales thread and start sweet talking people out of their money, then I could certainly understand you wanting to see my face and wanting to know what my mother named me... Well, wait a minute. Actually now that I think about it, and look around a bit, I actually see a lot of sellers here who are using pseudonyms, and using avatars that are not them, they are selling products (taking money/emails from others) yet I see no one questioning them over it. That's odd now that I think about it.

    I publicly announce that I will help people in some way (for free and with no obligation of any sort) and you raise question about my name and my face, yet many others are here who are taking payment (money) from others yet their real name or face never enter the conversation.

    This would hold at least some validity to me if I looked through your posts and you were consistent about asking sellers to "reveal themselves" and encouraging the people who value your opinion not to buy from anyone who does not use their real name or face here on WF, but I don't see that... I'm starting to get the idea that maybe you just jumped in here to razz me a bit!
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    • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
      Originally Posted by Brutal View Post

      Actually now that I think about it, and look around a bit, I actually see a lot of sellers here who are using pseudonyms, and using avatars that are not them, they are selling products (taking money/emails from others) yet I see no one questioning them over it. That's odd now that I think about it.
      It's not odd, they didn't come here boasting they were the new sheriff in town.
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  • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
    Banned
    You did put yourself on the pedestal, you can't really whine when people get inquisitive. I spotted an inconsistency between the ideal that you are claiming and what you are doing, and asked about it.

    Regardless, I get you. At least you are honest about why you do what you do in your own shade of gray.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    This thread reminds me of something they say in the pool hall, "Stop talking and start chalking".
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    • Profile picture of the author Halcyon
      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      This thread reminds me of something they say in the pool hall, "Stop talking and start chalking".
      I agree with this statement. The sayings, It's time to show and prove or Talk is cheap also come to mind.

      It doesn't matter how good your offering is if you're peddling it to an unresponsive crowd.

      The folks down here in the basement generally don't need much hand holding and people who don't want saving will always react negatively to purported saviors. No matter how helpful they claim to be.

      It's like selling vegan hotdogs at a pig roast

      I'm not saying that people don't need your help, I'm just saying that it was the wrong pitch for this crowd.
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  • Profile picture of the author Brutal
    Ha! Joe, offering to do something good and right for someone else is really not the classic definition of pedestal positioning. The simple fact is that a lot more people should be doing this.

    And Joe, i'm glad you get me... shades of grey and all. I appreciate that.

    Hi Kurt... I have been to that pool hall you are referring to, and so far I have racked, busted, and am currently engaged in the game.

    Just doing my part.
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    • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Brutal View Post

      Ha! Joe, offering to do something good and right for someone else is really not the classic definition of pedestal positioning. The simple fact is that a lot more people should be doing this.
      .
      A lot do, and more inevitably will. Very few though come in announcing it to the world. You made the conscious decision to shine a spotlight on yourself by posting a "sheriff is in town" message. You get to deal with the attention that comes with it, and like it or not, you are not going to find 450k+ people singing your praises.

      I for one am skeptical (as you might have noticed ). So go do what you do and prove me wrong. I hope you do; but I hoped Obama would change the country, too :rolleyes:.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
      Originally Posted by Brutal View Post

      Ha! Joe, offering to do something good and right for someone else is really not the classic definition of pedestal positioning. The simple fact is that a lot more people should be doing this.
      We are, you must have noticed by now.
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  • Profile picture of the author Brutal
    I'm no sheriff Bill... Just a concerned citizen willing to do my part regardless of any flash-back.

    (edited part)

    No, they didn't come boasting about being sheriff, they came boasting that for only $$$ they can give you a magical formula to make you rich over night. (not all of course - I don't want to generalize to much here).

    I'm still not seeing anything wrong about asking sellers questions that are derived from the sellers post yet not clear enough to provide a logical purchase decision based on the information provided. (and I don't see anything wrong with letting everyone know that I will ask those questions).
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    • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Brutal View Post

      I'm still not seeing anything wrong about asking sellers questions that are derived from the sellers post yet not clear enough to provide a logical purchase decision based on the information provided. (and I don't see anything wrong with letting everyone know that I will ask those questions).
      I've yet to see one post in this thread that said the actual actions you intend to perform are wrong.

      As for letting them know, I don't think many are seeing something inherently wrong with it. They are just skeptical, as they should be. We're just fishing for a motive.
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      • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
        Shoot!

        I arrived late for the party!

        Don't worry Brutal, I'm not riding in on my black horse and pink cowgirl hat with guns a blazing ready to shoot first and ask questions later.

        Let me just state that I'd like to welcome you not only to the Warrior Forum, but to my favorite place in the forum, the Off Topic Lounge.

        Let me be brutally honest with you and say that I'm the type of person that trusts you until you give me a reason not to. But I'm not completely naive either, I mean after having been around the block a time or two, I can spot blatant spammers, scammers as well as the rest of us and those that miss my detection are soon laid to rest by the mods here who do a tremendous job!

        That being said, I did read your initial post and didn't take anything out of context as some did. I want to thank you for thinking of others here and wanting to come in and be a part of this community, a giving, helping part rather than one who aims to just take and take, and scam or use.

        I find that rather refreshing!

        However, this doesn't mean that I'll just blindly take everything you said as the honest to God truth. I'll be sizing you up just as the others, I'll just be a little more discreet about it.

        Anyhow, glad that you did post your message here in the OT Lounge and conduct your business per se, here and meet the regulars. The best people you'll ever have the pleasure of meeting, believe it or not, lol!

        Good luck in your endeavors and remember, we're watching you! :p

        Terra
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  • Profile picture of the author Dave Patterson
    Those congressmen that grill Supreme Court nominees ain't got NOTHING on the OT forum...
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    So, is everyone having a good day so far?
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    • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
      Banned
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      So, is everyone having a good day so far?
      Had pizza, ice cream, and got a girl's number.

      And I'm only lying about one of those! Good day.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      So, is everyone having a good day so far?
      Today was my wife's birthday. I took her out to dinner at Red Lobster.

      My day has been great. But any day that I'm alive and well is great.

      You appreciate life a lot more as you get older.
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      • Profile picture of the author flowbee77
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        But any day that I'm alive and well is great. You appreciate life a lot more as you get older.
        Nice Steve! Well put.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      So, is everyone having a good day so far?
      Fabulous! My wife and I just cooked burgers on the grill (one of my favorite things) and had corn on the cob, cottage cheese and peaches, and watermelon. The sun is shining, the lilacs are blooming, and I've got some good tunes playing as I goof off here a little bit before doing some writing ... what's not to like!
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      • Profile picture of the author KimW
        Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

        Fabulous! My wife and I just cooked burgers on the grill (one of my favorite things) and had corn on the cob, cottage cheese and peaches, and watermelon. The sun is shining, the lilacs are blooming, and I've got some good tunes playing as I goof off here a little bit before doing some writing ... what's not to like!
        Well, out of all that I'd say just the cottage cheese.
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          I have not in any way at any point been inappropriate with a seller via the questions I ask.
          Perhaps not with the questions. With at least one response - yeah. You have.

          WSO threads are not the place for you to discuss your mission or to engage in theater. If someone challenges you on it, a proper response would be, "Pre-sales questions are allowed, are they not?"

          A 14 paragraph diatribe is not required or appropriate there.


          Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
          Originally Posted by KimW View Post

          Well, out of all that I'd say just the cottage cheese.
          I loves me some cottage cheese!

          My day's going alright, but not as good as my usual days.

          Some valet attendent drove my wife's Ferrari right into the leftside landing gear of my Learjet trying to make sure she didn't lose her Rolex she left sitting on the passenger's seat. It wasn't even her good one. The Ferrari, I mean.
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    • Profile picture of the author taskemann
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      So, is everyone having a good day so far?
      NO!!!! I couldn't find any Buffalo Chicken Wings when I was shopping today! My day is ruined!
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    Hey, if you tell me the lie is you got a guys number instead of a girl,I'm gonna be worried.....
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  • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
    Banned
    No, I forgot ice cream when I went food shopping .
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    Steven,
    That is so true.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Barrs
    Well, I for one got tired of this thread by about half way down page one.

    "Brutal", if you're going to ask some good questions about not-so-good WSO's, knock yourself out. Sounds like a great idea.

    I'll second that. The rest of it all is irrelevant in my opinion.

    Paul Barrs
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    It's Simple... I don't "sell" IM anymore, but still do lots of YouTube Videos
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  • Profile picture of the author waterotter
    I've been following this thread out of curiosity, more so than anything. I have to admit, many of the posters have valid points of view of which I share.

    I have to wonder if "Brutal" is a first time member to the WF, or do you have multiple accounts? The mods here are good at checking that out. There are ways around that - but realize you are under the gun of scrutiny here, with just cause. If you're legit, no problems, and welcome to the WF.

    The one thing that is bothering me is the way the OP reads. I'm reminded of non-law abiding citizens breaking the rules and getting caught. You come across as somebody who has just "found God".

    That's not a bad thing, but I often question the motives of someone who breaks the law, only to be held accountable, then voila - they have found God. All is forgiven......you get the drift.

    I sincerely hope I'm way off base here, and you are legit. Your participation here will be the "tell all".
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Jody,
      Your participation here will be the "tell all".
      Yep. Which is why I posted the cautionary note about what is and is not acceptable for what he says he wants to do.

      The title of this thread somewhat contradicts what he says he wants, but one allows for a bit of theater in OT. Reformed reformers tend to such drama. Some even learn to do the right thing without needing a lot of applause.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        Help out people who still haven't learned how to purchase without emotion.
        That's my objection. I don't care how many probing questions you ask - but I get the impression of riding in to solicit questions from put-upon marketers too dumb to think up their own questions.

        Yes, people get burned sometimes - but if they have brains at all, they learn from the experience.

        Seems to me if a member can't read a sales thread and make a decision on his own - he probably shouldn't be browsing the WSO section in the first place.

        I also think if you start showing up in every WSO thread asking questions day after day - you may not earn the reputation you expect.

        Maybe you should write a report on "how to read a sales page" and sell your own WSO.:p
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        Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world will change forever for that one dog.

        I'm going to work on being less condescending
        (Condescending means to talk down to people)
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