Is Business OVERregulated in the US?

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An interview with the CEO of Gibson Guitars...

Frankly, what happened here alarms the crap out of me. Who is next?
Gibson
  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    I read a story about this a few months ago, but it wasn't as detailed. I find this particularly disturbing:
    Approximately 59,000 new federal rules have been enacted since 1996.
    How many hundreds of thousands of pages of law is that added to how many hundreds of thousands (millions?) of pages of existing law? Who can keep track of all that? No wonder the economy is bad and companies flee the United States and set up factories elsewhere.

    The trouble with lawmakers is they think they have to make laws. The legal code needs a major overhaul. I'm all for throwing the current office holders all out on their rear - every damn one of them - and get some people in that will weed out all the onerous and unnecessary BS.
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    • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      I read a story about this a few months ago, but it wasn't as detailed. I find this particularly disturbing:
      Approximately 59,000 new federal rules have been enacted since 1996.
      How many hundreds of thousands of pages of law is that added to how many hundreds of thousands (millions?) of pages of existing law? Who can keep track of all that? No wonder the economy is bad and companies flee the United States and set up factories elsewhere.

      The trouble with lawmakers is they think they have to make laws. The legal code needs a major overhaul.

      I'm all for throwing the current office holders all out on their rear - every damn one of them - and get some people in that will weed out all the onerous and unnecessary BS.

      No wonder the economy is bad and companies flee the United States and set up factories elsewhere.


      Come on Dennis...

      The main reason companies have left the US is because of the dirt cheap labor and working conditions elsewhere.

      On of the reasons the economy sucks is because thousands of manufacturers moved away was for much cheaper labor elsewhere.


      TL
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      • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
        Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

        No wonder the economy is bad and companies flee the United States and set up factories elsewhere.


        Come on Dennis...

        The main reason companies have left the US is because of the dirt cheap labor and working conditions elsewhere.

        On of the reasons the economy sucks is because thousands of manufacturers moved away was for much cheaper labor elsewhere.


        TL

        Do you only see black and white? I didn't say it was the only reason. Cheap labor is definitely one, and there are others, but if you think burdonsome regulations aren't part of it, you need to think a little harder. Since the linked story is about regulations that's what I commented about. I didn't think it was necessary to list all the reasons, or the order of importance. Most people wouldn't need that explained to them.

        But you go ahead and keep looking for every little dig you can make, we're used to it from you.
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        • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
          Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

          Do you only see black and white? I didn't say it was the only reason. Cheap labor is definitely one, and there are others, but if you think burdonsome regulations aren't part of it, you need to think a little harder.

          Since the linked story is about regulations that's what I commented about. I didn't think it was necessary to list all the reasons, or the order of importance. Most people wouldn't need that explained to them.

          But you go ahead and keep looking for every little dig you can make, we're used to it from you.

          I simply disagree with your assessment.


          Cheap labor is 90%of the reason IMHO.

          If you can cut the hourly rate you pay by 90% or more...

          ...and the feds write breaks into the tax code to help and pay for your move...

          ... it's not hard to understand the mass Exodus of our manufacturers.


          Regarding Regulations & Job Losses:


          And if I posted a link with the dept of labor and other gov agencies saying that something like less than 1% of all job loses can be attributed to regulations...

          ... would you then dispute the departments and say they are cooking the books?


          All The Best!!


          TL
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      • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
        And the problem with that is???

        Joe Mobley


        Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

        No wonder the economy is bad and companies flee the United States and set up factories elsewhere.

        The main reason companies have left the US is because of the dirt cheap labor and working conditions elsewhere.

        On of the reasons the economy sucks is because thousands of manufacturers moved away was for much cheaper labor elsewhere.

        TL
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      • Profile picture of the author Dave Patterson
        Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

        No wonder the economy is bad and companies flee the United States and set up factories elsewhere.


        Come on Dennis...

        The main reason companies have left the US is because of the dirt cheap labor and working conditions elsewhere.

        On of the reasons the economy sucks is because thousands of manufacturers moved away was for much cheaper labor elsewhere
        .


        TL
        Gibson Guitars didn't. But the government may FORCE them to in order to survive....
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      • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
        Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

        No wonder the economy is bad and companies flee the United States and set up factories elsewhere.


        Come on Dennis...

        The main reason companies have left the US is because of the dirt cheap labor and working conditions elsewhere.

        On of the reasons the economy sucks is because thousands of manufacturers moved away was for much cheaper labor elsewhere.


        TL
        In 2001 the US laws changed, making a huge part of my existing business illigal. I moved my business to spain where it was legal, and nothing about it was cheaper then the US.

        Incidental side note: Our goverment found out about it, and tried to prosecute me, resulting in a 11 year federal court battle.
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        • Profile picture of the author KimW
          Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

          In 2001 the US laws changed, making a huge part of my existing business illigal. I moved my business to spain where it was legal, and nothing about it was cheaper then the US.

          Incidental side note: Our goverment found out about it, and tried to prosecute me, resulting in a 11 year federal court battle.
          I hope you won!

          I remember reading the story a while back too, and since he mentioned it it was probably due to Thom posting it.

          The government used to regulate for the citizens,now the regulate for the big corporations.
          It was on the news today that Goldman Sachs has a 900+ BILLION reserve now, and that is more than several European Nations which reserves were at 800+ billion.

          I'm not going to hijack this thread by saying any more.
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          • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
            Originally Posted by KimW View Post

            I hope you won!
            If by "won" you mean, had my life ruined, had my business devastated,
            had everybody i was affiliated with put under a microscope, had my assets frozen there by making it damn near impossible to defend myself. ( got that lifted after about 6 months )
            then spend almost every dime i ever saved to finally come to the dramatic conclusion of paying half a dozen fines, literally putting me a few million dollars "in the hole" then yeah, i won.

            If i sound bitter, its because I am.

            I should be happy enough not to be a club fed, but some how that just
            doesn't make me feel much better, they should never have come after me. Period, I and my company did nothing illegal, they got there panties twisted over one stupid piece of paper not being signed properly( out of 150 page signed document ) ... ugg, i am going to start rambling... so i am just going to end this here.
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            • Profile picture of the author KimW
              Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

              If by "win" you mean, had my life ruined, had my business devastated,
              had everybody i was affiliated with put under a microscope, had my assets frozen there by making it damn near impossible to defend myself. ( got that lifted after about 6 months )
              then spend almost every dime i ever saved to finally come to the dramatic conclusion of paying half a dozen fines, literally putting me a few million dollars "in the hole" then yeah, i won.

              If i sound bitter, its because I am.

              I should be happy enough not to be a club fed, but some how that just
              doesn't make me feel much better, they should never have come after me. Period, I and my company did nothing illegal, they got there panties twisted over one stupid piece of paper not being signed properly( out of 150 page signed document ) ... ugg, i am going to start rambling... so i am just going to end this here.
              Oh,no,that wasn't what I meant by "win".

              But trust me,I understand your bitterness.

              The government is out of control.

              I shut my business down when I got sick. To this day the IRS keeps sending me letters saying they are fining me for failing to file such and such a form.

              I keep sending them documentation that the business has been closed since June of 2007 and they ignore it.
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              • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
                Originally Posted by KimW View Post

                Oh,no,that wasn't what I meant by "win".
                Yeah i know

                Sorry for the ramble, i just saw red for a minute, then had direah of the mouth...

                as far as the 2007 comment, yeah they are idiots, as a matter of fact
                i think they have to take a special class to get that dumb.
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              • Profile picture of the author Thomas
                Originally Posted by KimW View Post

                I shut my business down when I got sick. To this day the IRS keeps sending me letters saying they are fining me for failing to file such and such a form.

                I keep sending them documentation that the business has been closed since June of 2007 and they ignore it.
                I have a good technique to force the hand of bureaucracy: a “denial-of-service attack”... on paper!

                For most people, this is only worthwhile when "they" are screwing up your life in some major way. For sadists like me, it's part of routine communication with all forms of bureaucracy.

                It's very simple (deceptively so): if/when they intrude on your life in some way, you immediately escalate the volume of communication as much as you possibly can: if they write to you, reply as desired, and add a copy of their initial correspondance to your reply.

                If they write again, reply again, and add a copy of your first reply, and another copy of their initial communication.

                If they write again, reply again, and add a copy of their last correspondance, and another copy of your last reply, and another copy of their first reply to your initial reply, and another copy of their initial communication.

                If they write again, reply again, and add a copy of your previous reply, and another copy of their previous correspondance, and another copy of your reply to that, and another copy of their correspondance before that, and another copy of...

                And, if you really want to mess them up, send the same replies (with multiple copies) to as many individual people as you can (especially if they are physically in the same office as each other), making sure to reference each of them in every piece of correspondance (i.e. write "CC:" underneath your letter, and list the name and title of EVERY recipient you send it to). I like to think of this as a sort of "distributed denial of service attack on paper". If the recipients are at different management levels, this really frightens the daylights out of them.

                If they subsequently telephone you (and they probably will), say "Sorry, I can't communicate by phone... mail only. You know my address".

                If they "invite" you to use an alternative electronic means of communication or interaction, either ignore it, or state you don't have the means to do so.

                The reason this works is simple: the sheer volume of paper involved clogs up “the machine” and keeps clogging it up until whatever the problem is gets dealt with. Everytime someone writes to you, your "file" in their office suddenly expands by dozens or even hundreds of pages. And remember that they'll also have all your previous correspondance, as well as anything you subsequently send them, meaning they end up with copies, and copies of copies, and copies of copies of copies, and copies of copies of copies of copies, etc. And, even worse, when you reply to multiple people, there will then be multiple copies, and multiple copies of copies, and multiple copies of copies of copies, and multiple copies of copies of copies of copies, etc.

                Aside for being a downright (severe) headache for anyone dealing with it, the effect of all that will be enormously destabilising to the system, especially if a smaller local office is involved; whatever the problem is will either be dealt with to get rid of you (and restore balance to the system) or it will be pushed “up the chain” from the local office to a regional or national one. (If that happens, then continue the process, but keep replying to everyone you previously replied to anyway, in addition to anyone new from "head office", even if they try to take themselves out of the 'line of fire' by telling you it's no longer their concern; after all, it's only polite to keep them informed about the progression of something they initiated in the first place ).

                Tommy.
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                • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
                  Originally Posted by Thomas View Post

                  <Long interesting strategy snipped>
                  I'm not sure how this would work in other countries, but in Australia you could compound the effect by not putting a stamp on your replies. That means that the recipient has to pay for the postage for each and every reply you send them.
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        • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
          Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

          I simply disagree with your assessment.
          I didn't make an assessment, I made an off-handed comment. If you want to call that an assessment that's your problem, not mine. Like I said, it's one of the reasons. I never said it was the only reason, or the main reason. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

          You don't have to look any further than Ken's post to validate what I said. I've quoted it below for your convenience:

          Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

          In 2001 the US laws changed, making a huge part of my existing business illigal. I moved my business to spain where it was legal, and nothing about it was cheaper then the US.

          Incidental side note: Our goverment found out about it, and tried to prosecute me, resulting in a 11 year federal court battle.
          Like I said, we are used to you always looking for some way to get a dig in on someone, but you don't get to change what I said to suit your purposes.
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        • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
          Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

          In 2001 the US laws changed, making a huge part of my existing business illigal. I moved my business to spain where it was legal, and nothing about it was cheaper then the US.

          Incidental side note: Our goverment found out about it, and tried to prosecute me, resulting in a 11 year federal court battle.


          I was talking about the vast majority of manufacturing business that clearly pursued cheap labor in countries like China and other cheap labor markets around the world.


          Sorry to hear about your troubles.

          All The Best!!


          TL
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  • Profile picture of the author ThomM
    I posted something about the Gibson case last year after it happened.
    Small business and single person businesses are always getting shafted by big brother.
    Here you've got the feds. charging Gibson with breaking laws in India and Madagascar, yet both countries are saying they didn't break their laws they complied with them.
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  • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
    On the other hand you have Wall Street which appears (on the surface at least) to have no rules at all.
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    • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
      Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

      On the other hand you have Wall Street which appears (on the surface at least) to have no rules at all.
      Legitimate businesses that are easily defined and actually build things like Gibson guitars are overregulated. What does Gibson do? It builds guitars. I'd suspect there's more to the story than meets the eye. Gibson must have displeased some powers-that-be and simply got targeted. In contrast, tax-money-subsidized looting entities that it would be hard to define what they do such as Enron (which sank anyway) and Bank of America operate in a climate so "deregulated" that it is lawless and unaccountable, yet hard to pin down for anything since what they do is so abstract that really only one vague word could apply to them -- taxpayer-subsidized "theft".
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  • Profile picture of the author TDogger
    Over 26,000 new pages of business regulation have been created since 2009 by Obummer's regulatory commissions and czars. Not a single one of his czars has ever created a business.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jay Brass
    What I don't get is that a lot of politicians who create these laws have never owned a small business...
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Ken - there are over 200 laws on the books right now that allow gov to literally steal everything someone has even if they are not prosecuted for anything illegal - so it's not just business owners that are targeted. Got property a major corp or the gov wants and tried to tell them no? If you live through it - it won't be on YOUR land.
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    • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Got property a major corp or the gov wants and tried to tell them no? If you live through it - it won't be on YOUR land.
      Funny you should mention that. My family has LOT of land in water town NY. the government decided it wanted to cut a section, right down the middle ( length ways ) to put up power lines... virtually making the land worthless.

      If i remember properly they called it eminent domain, or something like that.

      then another time, my grandmother had a section of her land stolen in NJ
      because they decided a highway was more important.

      its pretty amazing what they can get away with.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    My family owned a house on 10 acres . it was also zone to add single family dwellings. My parents plan was to have any of us kids that wanted to to build a house on the land.
    The state decided to widen the road that ran in front of the house. They offered my parents peanuts for it and my parents said no,so instead they claimed the right of imminent domain and stole the land. They also took my parents house claiming that with the road widening that they couldn't live in it anymore because the new road would be too close to the dwelling.

    That basically took 2 of the 10 acres. After stealing the land they had the zoning changed from the single residentual zoning to historical zoning,therefore making it i9mpossible for my parents to develop the land and even sell it,because once it was zoned historical,nobody could do anything with it.
    Even now it is assessed at close to a million dollars in value,and they make her pay taxes on that assessment,but nothing can be done on the land. We figure they are just waiting for her to get tired of dealing with it and donate it to the county.
    I don't see her doing that.
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  • Profile picture of the author hardraysnight
    therefore is it illegal to employ va's?
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    • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
      When I use a VA they are contractors. I do not employ my VAs. Totally legal... today.

      Joe Mobley



      Originally Posted by oncewerewarriors View Post

      therefore is it illegal to employ va's?
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  • Profile picture of the author Dave Patterson
    Don't think the thanks button is working Tommy, but I gotta say...

    I like the way you think...!
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  • Profile picture of the author Dave Patterson
    Don't think the thanks button is working Tommy, but I gotta say...

    I like the way you think...!
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    Yeah, I don't know if my "Thanks" will show up on any of the places I used it today.

    I actually like that too,except the cost of mailing here is ridiculous now.

    But I actually do use a variation of one of your tactics now.
    When someone calls and asks to speak to me,and I say this is kim,they then want me to
    verify information for them. I just tell them I am not required by law to answer any questions,but I did just verify I was Kim,so either tell me what you want or send me a letter. Most of the time the person on the other end is so flustered that they just hang up.

    And all those pre-approved offers I get in the mail? (I think I posted this before,but its worth reposting). They usually have what's known as a Business Reply envelope included. That's an envelope that they pay for only if it is returned,and they pay extra for that service. I normally look at the offer, find the outrageous interest rate they are so kindly offering me, circle it with a sharoie and write in big letters"You got to be F***ing kidding me!!" and mail it back in that envelope they have to pay to get back from the post office. I'm sure it doesn't do any good but it sure makes me feel better.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    LOL. Good work Tommy. I will definitely remember that one.

    I like to return all mail sent with a return envelope with a nice big note inside that says "Help save trees. Please Recycle waste paper."
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    @Thom, that's awesome. I like it.

    @whateverpedia, I'm not sure if they would even deliver it here, they may just bring it right back to your return address. If you didn't use one and they delivered it, the recipient would have the option of paying the postage or not accepting the mail.
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    • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      @Thom, that's awesome. I like it.

      @whateverpedia, I'm not sure if they would even deliver it here, they may just bring it right back to your return address. If you didn't use one and they delivered it, the recipient would have the option of paying the postage or not accepting the mail.
      After making that post (pun intended :rolleyes, I realised that a lot of businesses provide a reply paid mailing address and sometimes even a pre-addressed envelope, so always make sure you use those in all your "correspondence".
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    Here in the states if it has a return address it will be sent back to you postage due.
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    • Profile picture of the author Thomas
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      Here in the states if it has a return address it will be sent back to you postage due.
      Put one of their colleagues as the sender.
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      • Profile picture of the author KimW
        Originally Posted by Thomas View Post

        Put one of their colleagues as the sender.
        That is actually what a lot of people will do to scam the system here.
        The TO address and the SENDER address will be the same. Or at least they did when I worked for our postal service here about 15 years ago, don't know if it still works.
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