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UK Dr's striking over "poverty Pension"

by sloanjim
29 replies
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Makes my blood boil. They are aspoilt bunch of NHS overpaid workers who think they are entitled to money.

Average UK GP is on about £70K per annum
Comsultants are on over £120 p.a

And when they retire their pension is about £65k per annum RETIRED!

Who pays for that? Yep course it's us.

It's not right and it's not reality. If I was to try and make that much of aprivaye pension I would need to save millions over my working life (no chance with bills so big these days)

This kind of thing sunk Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal....and it's coming to a head here now.

If I could have my life again..screw business...just become a NHS consultant and you are guarnateed a life of luxury.
  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    Originally Posted by sloanjim View Post

    Makes my blood boil. They are aspoilt bunch of NHS overpaid workers who think they are entitled to money.

    Average UK GP is on about £70K per annum
    Comsultants are on over £120 p.a

    And when they retire their pension is about £65k per annum RETIRED!

    Who pays for that? Yep course it's us.

    It's not right and it's not reality. If I was to try and make that much of aprivaye pension I would need to save millions over my working life (no chance with bills so big these days)

    This kind of thing sunk Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal....and it's coming to a head here now.

    If I could have my life again..screw business...just become a NHS consultant and you are guarnateed a life of luxury.
    Do they contribute anything to their own retirement or are all contributions from the taxpayers???

    TL
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      Do they contribute anything to their own retirement or are all contributions from the taxpayers???

      TL
      65 is close to 70, so even if they contributed 90%(which they never could do, since they have to live and taxes ALONE would make 90% more than 100% of their salary.), it is STILL too high! Remember, this is a PENSION! That is over and above anything a plain citizen would get. There should be limits on the length of a pension, and the amount per year, based on what you put in. If there aren't, EVERYONE in the future must pay for it.

      EVEN when they are LONG dead, people must pay for money lost by those paying before them for that person that never paid for themselves. This will become MORE obvious VERY soon as the demographics change and there will be fewer paying for more retirees.

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author derekwong28
    Originally Posted by sloanjim View Post


    Average UK GP is on about £70K per annum
    Comsultants are on over £120 p.a

    .
    Their earnings are actually much higher than that. A GP earns well over £100K

    They do contribute towards their pensions so you can't really argue with that.

    But what you can argue about is the massive leap in earnings for GPs in the past decade. There are now many more services they can claim payment from the NHS for that was responsible for the massive leap.

    However, I am not going to argue whether the pay is fair or not because doctors in Hong Kong earn even more, especially those in the private sector.
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  • Profile picture of the author hardraysnight
    it is a small price to pay for good health, even if your figures do appear low.
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  • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
    Let them strike - you'll have an opportunity before too much time passes to determine whether to pay them what they want or lose their services permanently.

    Purely as an academic question, isn't this exactly what unions are supposed to do? Get the most they can for their members? Or is that only in the private sector?
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

      Let them strike - you'll have an opportunity before too much time passes to determine whether to pay them what they want or lose their services permanently.

      Purely as an academic question, isn't this exactly what unions are supposed to do? Get the most they can for their members? Or is that only in the private sector?
      That's what they do public AND private. ALSO, because they are public and private, they work one against the other.

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author sloanjim
    I believe it's about 15%..the rest £67BN is for the tax payer.

    Should have been a N.H.S. consultant...damm can I re-wind my life please?

    Do they contribute anything to their own retirement or are all contributions from the taxpayers???
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  • Profile picture of the author sloanjim
    you are kidding me? My expereicne and many others is very poor with some of them. And what does receving a £67k a year pension have to do with this? It's crazy. So what about my bin man? Fireman? Policeman? Dr.s alread make a great wage.....it's not like they are beign underpaid is it?

    They already make over £100k for what 30+ years..surely they can afford their own private pension instead of milking the tax payer for more. It's an overblown, out of control, system that is bankrupting the country now.

    Now we can see why the whole of the EU is f** up finacially. Paying out hundreds of thousands of "governemt " workrs huge pensions years after they retire.Greece msot peope retired at 50 on full salaries....no wonder their country imploded. What did they expect?

    I wish I could get half of that kind of pension pot. You wouldn't have to save a dime whilst working knowing you are going to receive that! And it's not just Dr's. Every other Governamt job has big pension payouts.

    system is now broke. It's time to pay the piper and ther's no money left.

    This is what has sunk the EU...comete overpaying og Government set up schemese and a gravy train attitude.

    it is a small price to pay for good health, even if your figures do appear low.
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    • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
      Originally Posted by sloanjim View Post

      you are kidding me? My expereicne and many others is very poor with some of them. And what does receving a £67k a year pension have to do with this? It's crazy. So what about my bin man? Fireman? Policeman? Dr.s alread make a great wage.....it's not like they are beign underpaid is it?

      They already make over £100k for what 30+ years..surely they can afford their own private pension instead of milking the tax payer for more. It's an overblown, out of control, system that is bankrupting the country now.

      Now we can see why the whole of the EU is f** up finacially. Paying out hundreds of thousands of "governemt " workrs huge pensions years after they retire.Greece msot peope retired at 50 on full salaries....no wonder their country imploded. What did they expect?

      I wish I could get half of that kind of pension pot. You wouldn't have to save a dime whilst working knowing you are going to receive that! And it's not just Dr's. Every other Governamt job has big pension payouts.

      system is now broke. It's time to pay the piper and ther's no money left.

      This is what has sunk the EU...comete overpaying og Government set up schemese and a gravy train attitude.
      Don't forget about the financial institutions that put the world into this mess.

      TL
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  • Profile picture of the author sloanjim
    It's not about the wage..it's about the pension........ok?
    Let them strike - you'll have an opportunity before too much time passes to determine whether to pay them what they want or lose their services permanently.
    And to fair only about 10% striked. Probably realized what a good cushy number they are really on and do not want to "rock the boat" too much and arouse too much "interest" into what money they are paid..
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by sloanjim View Post

      It's not about the wage..it's about the pension........ok?


      And to fair only about 10% striked. Probably realized what a good cushy number they are really on and do not want to "rock the boat" too much and arouse too much "interest" into what money they are paid..
      When they aren't negotiating salary, they consider the benefits to be part of their salary.

      In the US, it worked THIS way....

      1. Government .... We will pay you a bit less than the private sector, but give better benefits.
      2. Worker.... OK.
      3. Union ... Worker isn't getting what the private sector is, PAY THEM!
      4. Government, I give....
      5. Union.... The benefits are too low.
      6. OK, I give....
      7. Union to private sector... These workers can get more in the government.....

      Airlines are the SAME way, and that is why all the US airlines, except a few non union ones, went BANKRUPT!

      Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author jimbo13
        In the UK a GP (General Practitioner) is a really cushy job.

        They go to work at their surgery and basically spend the entire day sitting in their office seeing each patient for an average of 15 minutes.

        Ask a few questions, tap it into the computer and write out a prescription to take to the pharmacy.

        Then they go home.

        At least Drs in hospital have to actually do things that can be quite traumatic.

        If I was in Med School I would just be a GP and pick up my 40 years of £100k

        I don't know how a GP can complain about their pensions when 10 years ago they were on £65k

        They were basically given a £35k pay rise. That is nearly £1.5 million for a new GP over 40 years.

        There is a truth to this. There are no poor bankers, doctors, dentists, accountants and none of them have to hunt for clients like people on this forum do.

        Dan
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        • Profile picture of the author AnniePot
          The UK health system was once the showcase of the world. Unfortunately, in recent years their national borders have been eroded and immigrants have poured in from all corners of the globe.

          The UK National Health Service worked beautifully when it served (as was originally intended,) citizens who had paid into it, through payroll deductions, throughout their working lives. BUT, more and more and more immigrants have poured into Britain and immediately been allowed to avail themselves of all the health services without having contributed a penny towards it.

          Of course it has become unsustainable; there's no money left - what does the government expect?

          BTW: I'm a Brit born and bred. I may live in the US now, but many of my family still in the UK are employed in the medical profession.
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          • Profile picture of the author fin
            Originally Posted by AnniePot View Post

            The UK health system was once the showcase of the world. Unfortunately, in recent years their national borders have been eroded and immigrants have poured in from all corners of the globe.

            The UK National Health Service worked beautifully when it served (as was originally intended,) citizens who had paid into it, through payroll deductions, throughout their working lives. BUT, more and more and more immigrants have poured into Britain and immediately been allowed to avail themselves of all the health services without having contributed a penny towards it.

            Of course it has become unsustainable; there's no money left - what does the government expect?

            BTW: I'm a Brit born and bred. I may live in the US now, but many of my family still in the UK are employed in the medical profession.
            That's one way of looking at it.

            Is it really too hard to operate on people or give them medicine if they really need it? Immigrant or not.

            It's not the immigrants fault. There is more doctors than there are jobs. How much does it cost for a tablet compared to the pennies it cost to make.

            The UK sucks. It's not just the doctors fault.

            When you read about ministers using taxpayers money to buy moats for their second homes, or buy expensive art work for their office it sucks.

            When you see 5 council vans at the same house to fix a broken toilet, or you see 10 civil servants standing round a hole in the road watching one person dig it sucks even more.

            The country is screwed up. Don't go blaming the immigrants for the decline of the government money because they don't want to die.
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            • Profile picture of the author AnniePot
              Originally Posted by fin View Post

              The country is screwed up. Don't go blaming the immigrants for the decline of the government money because they don't want to die.
              Actually, I wasn't blaming the immigrants. I was blaming the system. The UK is a tiny country and immigrants from all corners of the world should not have been permitted to pour in as they have. Their sheer numbers are way above what the social services can cope with.

              About half the population increase between the 1991and 2001 censuses was due to foreign-born immigration. 4.9 million people (8.3 percent of the population at the time) were born abroad, And those figures are for eleven years ago.

              The Blair years encouraged a "multi-cultural society" and now the country is paying for it.

              I have absolutely nothing against immigration, my family and I are immigrants to the US. BUT, a country needs to control it and not allow it to reach a point where it overwhelms available services.

              I have family in Bristol and they tell me all the time about people who, through no fault of their own, lost their home after being laid off from their jobs, etc. and are living out of cars and in shop doorways. Yet councils are immediately housing immigrants arriving with large families, in one well publicized incident, in a multi-million pound mansion.
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              • Profile picture of the author fin
                Originally Posted by AnniePot View Post


                I have family in Bristol and they tell me all the time about people who, through no fault of their own, lost their home after being laid off from their jobs, etc. and are living out of cars and in shop doorways. Yet councils are immediately housing immigrants arriving with large families, in one well publicized incident, in a multi-million pound mansion.
                That's disgusting. I agree with you there.
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            • Profile picture of the author seasoned
              Originally Posted by fin View Post

              That's one way of looking at it.

              Is it really too hard to operate on people or give them medicine if they really need it? Immigrant or not.

              It's not the immigrants fault. There is more doctors than there are jobs. How much does it cost for a tablet compared to the pennies it cost to make.
              NOBODY on the planet knows! A lot of prescriptions cost *****MILLIONS***** of dollars for that first tablet. They may charge you as little as maybe $0.10 for that first tablet, but it literally cost MILLIONS! Research, Trials, Testing, Dosing, Lawyers, Paperwork, Approvals, Packaging, Documenting, Printing, registering, taxes, shipping, etc....

              A pill I take is one I could EASILY make. The hard part would be measuring the active ingredient precisely, and tableting. ALSO, if I managed, it would be determined to fall under the FDA so then it would get FAR more expensive.

              The UK sucks. It's not just the doctors fault.

              When you read about ministers using taxpayers money to buy moats for their second homes, or buy expensive art work for their office it sucks.

              When you see 5 council vans at the same house to fix a broken toilet, or you see 10 civil servants standing round a hole in the road watching one person dig it sucks even more.

              The country is screwed up. Don't go blaming the immigrants for the decline of the government money because they don't want to die.
              NOBODY wants to die in that way. CITIZENS have tried to build things up, and pay into the system. We can blame illegals for doing OTHERWISE!

              I just watched a judge show where the judge was APPALLED that the defendant tried to replace a watch with one that looked near identical. WHY? 1. She never told the plantiff. 2. The store, and perceived value, was about $2000 less! At least SHE tried to return the look and function. of course, I was just as appalled as the judge. She was followed by a guy that pretended his apartment was a musical stage for his drums at 3am.

              And HE was followed by a woman that parked her car over an electrical box on someone elses property. She ACTUALLY asked why they cared about the box! GEE, if I were the judge, I would say that I would pay HALF the amount if she did only ONE thing! She strip down so she is nude, and lie over the box in the winter while it is snowing, with NO car or clothing or blanket, and stay the week. She would QUICKLY find why the box is so important! Maybe she should cover herself with snow to be a bit more decent.

              As for what you say about the "civil servants", that is certainly true. I ESPECIALLY hate when they waste their time setting up obstacle courses, that could lead to someone's DEATH, for NOTHING! I even resent the term "civil servant" because they aren't helpful and get a LOT of the money for standing or drinking coffee.

              Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author masterxm
    never thinked about like today before
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  • Profile picture of the author hardraysnight
    so, tell me, just what is a doctor worth?

    i fully support socialised medicine
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  • Profile picture of the author derekwong28
    When I was a junior doctor with the NHS about 20 years ago. We had a NHS pension which we made contributions and could opt out for higher pay instead. I am not sure whether the government made contributions to the NHS pensions. But the issue is if you suddenly change the terms of the pension, then it would be a case of breach of contract. Doctors who opted for a NHS option could easily set up their own in the private sector instead.

    The pay and conditions for junior doctors at that time was just abysmal. I had lots of colleagues who had to live in council houses and I needed support from my family. Quite often we had to work Fridays and Mondays non-stop i.e. a 81 hour stretch. At the end of which, most of us were so frustrated as to be suicidal. Many wished they have never become a doctor and wanted to change professions. The pay and conditions was not only bad for doctors but was bad right across the board for NHS staff. It seems that being a health care professional had no right to fight for their rights and we certainly felt that we were taken advantage off. Just why should doctors have to suffer this work torture whereas the rest of the population can enjoy a 40 hour week? Basically, graduates started to avoid entering some specialties and some went overseas or left the profession altogether. We knew that one day, the NHS would have to pay for all this.

    Now fast forward to the present time. You have got many specialties that lack suitably qualified doctors to the extent that the NHS has to employ doctors from Europe. These are doctors that are trained in a completely different system. The situation is so extreme that you got an entire medical and surgical teams speaking to each other in French or Polish in some hospitals. It is easy to blame immigrants for the increased demand on resources but a 10-20% increase just can't make that much of a difference. In fact, it is the immigrants who are supporting the NHS, with over 50% of staff being of overseas origin e.g.

    Overseas staff keep NHS afloat | Society | Society Guardian

    It is a well known fact that foreigners tend to take the worse jobs and it seems doctors and nurses are among those dirty jobs. The problem with GP pay is another matter. In theory, they are private practitioners who subcontract their services to the NHS. They are paid for each patient they look after and also for additional services provided. It is the additional services that led to a huge increase in GP's pay. It is likely that some of these services are not necessary.

    If you think doctors' pay is unfair in the UK, then you should look at the US or Hong Kong. There are quite a number of private specialists here earning over $1M per annum. It is clear that the NHS has decreased the market value of doctors' pay rather than increased it.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by derekwong28 View Post

      When I was a junior doctor with the NHS about 20 years ago. We had a NHS pension which we made contributions and could opt out for higher pay instead. I am not sure whether the government made contributions to the NHS pensions. But the issue is if you suddenly change the terms of the pension, then it would be a case of breach of contract. Doctors who opted for a NHS option could easily set up their own in the private sector instead.

      The pay and conditions for junior doctors at that time was just abysmal. I had lots of colleagues who had to live in council houses and I needed support from my family. Quite often we had to work Fridays and Mondays non-stop i.e. a 81 hour stretch. At the end of which, most of us were so frustrated as to be suicidal. Many wished they have never become a doctor and wanted to change professions. The pay and conditions was not only bad for doctors but was bad right across the board for NHS staff. It seems that being a health care professional had no right to fight for their rights and we certainly felt that we were taken advantage off. Just why should doctors have to suffer this work torture whereas the rest of the population can enjoy a 40 hour week? Basically, graduates started to avoid entering some specialties and some went overseas or left the profession altogether. We knew that one day, the NHS would have to pay for all this.
      I'm not SURE what you mean by "junior doctor", but in the US, there are like THREE levels. The first, of course, is normal education. The last, of course, is a normal doctor. In between the two is a grueling time where you work for little, if ANY, pay, for LONG hours doing who knows what. As I understand it, depending on your level, it could be anywhere from like nasty nurse work all the way up to major surgery. But that is one reason that even the BASE pay is so high.

      It is a well known fact that foreigners tend to take the worse jobs and it seems doctors and nurses are among those dirty jobs. The problem with GP pay is another matter. In theory, they are private practitioners who subcontract their services to the NHS. They are paid for each patient they look after and also for additional services provided. It is the additional services that led to a huge increase in GP's pay. It is likely that some of these services are not necessary.
      In the US, that is a MYTH! I work side by side with a lot of foreigners. One coworker once complained that he didn't make enough, but statements made me curious, and I found out he paid OVER $750/month for one of his cars! It was a high end high performance luxury car. It cost me LESS than that for my first car, which was new and priced at a premium, AND the insurance PUT TOGETHER! He had pretty high aspirations also, and wanted to own the company one day. Did I mention that he wasn't even 30yo? Though he was told he would NOT get a raise, he stayed on. A couple foreign doctors also worked on my operation as doctors. Heart surgery is not considered low end surgery. OH, and apparently there is HIGH demand!

      If you think doctors' pay is unfair in the UK, then you should look at the US or Hong Kong. There are quite a number of private specialists here earning over $1M per annum. It is clear that the NHS has decreased the market value of doctors' pay rather than increased it.
      Well, yes and no. Still, this is one reason I don't like the "hcp". It raises costs and lowers income. Doctors will have more of the education paid for, but the jobs will likely be less secure.

      Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author derekwong28
        Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

        I'm not SURE what you mean by "junior doctor", but in the US, there are like THREE levels. The first, of course, is normal education. The last, of course, is a normal doctor. In between the two is a grueling time where you work for little, if ANY, pay, for LONG hours doing who knows what. As I understand it, depending on your level, it could be anywhere from like nasty nurse work all the way up to major surgery. But that is one reason that even the BASE pay is so high.



        In the US, that is a MYTH! I work side by side with a lot of foreigners. One coworker once complained that he didn't make enough, but statements made me curious, and I found out he paid OVER $750/month for one of his cars! It was a high end high performance luxury car. It cost me LESS than that for my first car, which was new and priced at a premium, AND the insurance PUT TOGETHER! He had pretty high aspirations also, and wanted to own the company one day. Did I mention that he wasn't even 30yo? Though he was told he would NOT get a raise, he stayed on. A couple foreign doctors also worked on my operation as doctors. Heart surgery is not considered low end surgery. OH, and apparently there is HIGH demand!



        Well, yes and no. Still, this is one reason I don't like the "hcp". It raises costs and lowers income. Doctors will have more of the education paid for, but the jobs will likely be less secure.

        Steve
        I would define a junior doctor as one who is within a few years of graduation. In the US, it would mean a resident in training. I am not sure about the term in the UK. A number of things happened in the UK that lead to the present situation. Firstly, there were cases where patients died because of overworked doctors. Eventually, the EU forced the UK to abandon such long working hours. That led to a sudden demand for more doctors that the UK could not fulfill. As a result, they had to bring a foreign trained doctors. You got cases of foreign doctors appointed consultants who had never worked in the UK. They were trained in different system altogether.

        The actual NHS salary for consultants in the UK is not that high. It is that they can often double their income through private work. But that depends a lot on where they work. Harley street doctors are among the most expensive in the world but few will employ a private doctor in a small UK town. Another problem is that GP's incomes have got so attractive that fewer doctors are training to become specialists.

        Another problem that has arisen is that sometime in eighties, individual NHS hospitals or group of hospitals were allowed to form their own trusts and compete with each other as they were privately run. This led to lots of problems like some hospitals offering unnecessary services just to get money. Also, they had to employ many more administrators and accountants to look after their accounts.
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        • Profile picture of the author jimbo13
          This is in todays paper about the NHS.

          NHS wards: Patients at risk when junior doctors start new jobs, says health boss Sir Bruce Keogh | Mail Online

          Dan
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by jimbo13 View Post

            There have been similar scandals in the US! A person has problems, or WORSE, and they find that the doctor they paid for did NOT do the operation, but an INTERN or WORSE did. I believe that is now ILLEGAL without supervision. Technically, it ALWAYS was, but I think they codified it.

            Lawyers are trained to like shut their brains off when giving advice, or defending. They throw evidence, logic, and common sense out the window. If the contract does not SPECIFICALLY say in the appropriate legalese that a SPECIFIC doctor, or one with SPECIFIED experience should do the operation, almost anyone in the hospital may be allowed to. AND, unless you get the physicians writeup on the operation, you may NEVER know!

            That is one reason for all the codified garbage! Copyrights, for example, do NOT simply say that it is copyrighted and you can't copy it. They try to cover EVERYTHING SPECIFICALLY. The 2004 steroid law did NOT say steroids, etc.... It listed like every chemical, and patterns of combinations. They EVEN had to add an exclusion for womens contraception pills and hormone treatments, because the steroid descriptions MATCHED!

            Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author sloanjim
    agreed the whole Europen Uniion system is messed up...

    What would happen if i illegally entered the USA and then got ill? Out of interest?

    The UK health system was once the showcase of the world. Unfortunately, in recent years their national borders have been eroded and immigrants have poured in from all corners of the globe.

    The UK National Health Service worked beautifully when it served (as was originally intended,) citizens who had paid into it, through payroll deductions, throughout their working lives. BUT, more and more and more immigrants have poured into Britain and immediately been allowed to avail themselves of all the health services without having contributed a penny towards it.

    Of course it has become unsustainable; there's no money left - what does the government expect?

    BTW: I'm a Brit born and bred. I may live in the US now, but many of my family still in the UK are employed in the medical profession.
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  • Profile picture of the author sloanjim
    I have absolutely nothing against immigration, my family and I are immigrants to the US. BUT, a country needs to control it and not allow it to reach a point where it overwhelms available services.

    I have family in Bristol and they tell me all the time about people who, through no fault of their own, lost their home after being laid off from their jobs, etc. and are living out of cars and in shop doorways. Yet councils are immediately housing immigrants arriving with large families, in one well publicized incident, in a multi-million pound mansion.
    Sad but oh so true.....
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    • Profile picture of the author jimbo13
      Originally Posted by sloanjim View Post

      What would happen if i illegally entered the USA and then got ill? Out of interest?
      Probably give you a massive bill unlike over here where we give them a nice cup of tea and our blessings.

      Originally Posted by AnniePot View Post

      Yet councils are immediately housing immigrants arriving with large families, in one well publicized incident, in a multi-million pound mansion.
      Yes. People come over and get a nice house. WOW they think. Must phone rest of family back in 3rd world country to get them to come over.

      What does council do. Oh they need a bigger house now.

      Unbelievable system we have over here.

      Dan

      PS: Family you are talking about got a £2m mansion somewhere in London. Another one got a £1.4m house. No wonder Heathrow is always busy.
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  • Profile picture of the author sloanjim
    Sadly that's the truth. They can't beleive the y get a house/money/free school/medical after contributing naff all. So...they phone al ltheir freinds/family and tell them to "join in."

    If we tried to stop this there'd be hell on with the EU.

    It'll end up sinking us. It's already doing so. A once beautiful country absolutley ruined!

    Yes. People come over and get a nice house. WOW they think. Must phone rest of family back in 3rd world country to get them to come over.
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    • Profile picture of the author AnniePot
      My cousin told me recently that her city - Bristol - is the European capital for people sleeping in shop doorways. She walked around Bristol Centre recently and saw this exactly this for herself.
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