Engage in enough physical activity every day so you're actually tired at bedtime. Avoid caffeine and processed foods. Vigorous sex can also help. Not trying to be a wiseguy either.

Wish I could help,but I suffer from it myself since my operation.

Had it mildly before,but it is much worse now,and I have tried much of the same things you have.

The current medication of choice by Doctors, Ambien,does very little for me.
And I can't take herbs because the counteract my anti rejection drugs.

I am going to keep following this thread and I hope someone has some good alternatives for you.

Another Word:

I'm sure if you have tried the supplement route you have already tried this amino acid supplement. However, as a fellow Canadian, you might find something of interest here:

http://www.zenbev.com/us/about_biosential.us.shtml

Magnesium and calcium supplements taken about and hour before going to bed can also help.

Just to add to what I posted above, there are actually three words related to the problem of insomnia:

Tryptophan, Serotonin and Melatonin.

Melatonin is a neurotransmitter produced in the pineal gland from serotonin, which in turn is derived from typtophan–an amino acid found in food.

In order to produce serotonin from tryptophan the body needs Vitamin B6, (pyridoxine) magnesium and vitamin D. These essential co-enzymes are necessary for the conversion of tryptophan into serotonin. Without the proper amount of these essential enzymes the body cannot produce serotonin. If it cannot produce serotonin, it cannot produce melatonin. (Melatonin is also dependent on vitamin B6 and magnesium.) And if it can't produce any or all of the above, you will have problems sleeping, for sure.

Since you have been to a homeopath and a naturopath you already know all of this. And obviously, it hasn't helped.

Insomnia is very distressing, to say the least, but there is hope.

Don't give up - keep searching until you find a solution (preferably a natural one) that works for you.

As an afterthought, do you get at least two hours a day outside in natural sunlight? Sunlight, fresh air and a good interval (or intermittent) exercise routine including what Travlin Guy suggested should help. Although I'm sure you've already tried all of the above!

Edited to add: One thing that has helped me more than anything else is sleeping in a totally dark room with lots of fresh air. Since I live in the country this is not a problem. And I do get outside lots - I find I need to be outside (and moving around while I'm out there) for at least two hours. That goes a long way to ensuring a good night's sleep. Also, if you are between the age 45-55, hang it there. Sleep starts to get better for women after a certain age!

Also, a balanced omega 3-6-9 essential oils supplement helps in so many ways. I really do sleep better since I started taking oil supplements on a regular basis. (Recommended reading by another fellow Canadian: http://www.udoerasmus.com/articles/udo/fthftk.htm)

Jacqueline: As you no doubt know, insomnia is a complicated problem and there are no quick and easy answers. Deficiencies in one area of our body impact all of the other bodily functions. Chronic insomnia is most likely a metabolic disorder if all other physical and psychological factors have been given due consideration.

Here is an article on the biochemistry of insomnia. This article is not well written, but it can be used as a starting point for further research.

Hypoglycemic Health Association of Australia - The Biochemistry of Insomnia

I would also suggest you read Udo Erasmus' article on essential oils. So many of our body's chemical interactions are dependent on essential fatty acids, and so many of us are deficient in these due to modern food processing techniques. This article is a bit awkward to read as you have to keep going back to the top for the navigation links, but it really is a worthwhile read: http://www.udoerasmus.com/articles/udo/fthftk.htm

Have you tried reading any programming books? They knock me out instantly!

On a serious note, I know where you are coming from. For years I couldn't sleep for more than 2 hours at a time before I would wake up, wide awake. I could often be found at 3:00 AM sitting at my desk writing or outside watching the stars, waiting for the rest of the world to wake up. I tried everything to find some relief but to no avail. And then some time after I turned 45 I started to sleep 3 or more hours until finally, after 5 more years, I have been able to get 6 hours of sleep quite regularly. Not sure what happened or if I will ever get to 8 hours but damn it feels good to actually get some rest. The exhaustion of insomnia can be quite taxing and something I would like to never experience again.

I hope you find some relief soon.

JL

That is a bad situation, and for the doctors to tell you to just deal with it is unacceptable. It may lead to more serious issues.

Try fasting for a few days and drink pure water, if you're body is up to it medically. Get all the crap out of you.

Also go for the placebo affect, believe that you will get better. Sounds strange, but it has helped me many times.

I find it very odd that intelligent scientists would ignore the placebo, though it is a very significant part of every major study.

I would also seek out HeySal,

She is very knowledgeable about nutrition and poisons.

I'd recommend the 1 hour phone consultation with her, it really helped my wife and I when we were desperate and didn't have months to waste on research.

She hangs out down here in the OT forum, if you haven't run into her yet.

Jacqeline (Jackie?) --

Vitamin D3 - if you are short, you're body will do all sorts of strange crap. Get sunshine for that if at all possible because that is also natural melatonin and the fake melatonin has side effects over time - a major one being that it quits working. LOL.

If your body burns calories as fast as mine does, sometimes sleep is impossible because we are burning too much energy to sleep. Serious. If you can't sleep, don't try. The harder you try, the harder it will be to fall out. Just do something until you get tired. Reading while lying in bed is a good way to fall out fast. Nothing too exciting though - right. Drink some chamomile tea while reading. Keep your mind off of trying to fall asleep and unless you're burning calories like a madman, you should be able to knock off naturally.

What you need to answer though - is how do you feel the day after a night with no sleep? If you can pull all nighters without it effecting you much, just sleep when you are finally tired and don't worry about it -- sleep isn't written in stone 8 hours for everyone. I used to regularly stay up 24 and 36 hour stretches. I felt fine. So if you are stressing over not sleeping what are known as regular hours, stop stressing over it. I talk to a lot of people who swear they are insomniac when all that's going on really is that they don't need as much sleep as they think they are supposed to get.

I like your positivity about it that there is still a solution. However, may I ask what do you do when insomnia kicks in? I wanted to suggest that instead of suffering from it, why not use it to your advantage? Perhaps do something productive.

As far as I know Insomnia is a sleeping disorder. Just quit from drinking coffee and start eating fruits and also take some vitamins. Just consult your doctor and ask some advice on it.

Two things that have not been mentioned here.
I am also a severe, chronic insomniac so I know what you are going through.
Turn off the computer and TV at least 2 hours before bed. Curl up with a good book instead.
Find a CD with calm relaxing music and play that when you sleep and ONLY when you sleep and it should help your mind drift off.
One of the reasons we don't sleep well is the inability to switch our minds off.

I have an excellent cd called "Sleep" and I listen to it some nights if I need an extra boost. It can get me to sleep but not for long. Perhaps it can also help you at least get to sleep and maybe even stay asleep.

Maybe you need a copy of the same cd?

Just know that first, you are NOT alone. Second, you have to listen to your body (even though it's off). Don't do the "if I stay up longer, I'll finally sleep tonight" deal. SLEEP when you can. If that is 10am-3pm, DO IT. If that means going to bed at 6 pm because you can't function...DO IT.

Melatonin works, but can give crazy dreams, and yes, you can take too much. Look up Dr. Oz's advice on it.

Also, passion flower drops help, and keeping the tv/computer off before you lay down. You can try massage or exercise early in the day (NOT before bedtime).

No caffeine (someone else said that) and most of all, accept that this is where you are. The more frustrated you get, the worse it will get!

OK can i ask a question. I know the technical definition of insomnia.

but in reality.. what is it? for instance. for most of my life i sleep
2 hours a night. Occasionally ( actually pretty rarely 3 -4 hours a night )

My kid is the same way, and has been since birth.

I believe about half of my family is the same.

I also understand that, once we ht 50, we sleep more.

I have never considered that insomnia.. even though it fits the definition.

But then, i am not really effected ny the lack of sleep.

is that the problem ? or is that the real definition, when it effects the
quality of life ?

This might sound spretty basic and dumb.

but when the non sleepers in my family want to sleep we drink warm milk
with a pad of butter ( real butter ) mixed well.

I prefer hot white rice and butter, my kid does well with milk and butter.

i dont know if that helps or not.
I hope it does.

Ken, whether you feel it affects you or not, if you don't get enough regular sleep, then I believe it is classified as insomnia. Numerous people live a life on very little sleep and cope just fine. Then there are those of us who have so many health issues, including insomnia, that we just want to scream sometimes.
Apart from the insomnia I have nerve damage in my neck and I slept in a recliner for a year or so before finally buying an electric bed to overcome the pain of laying down. I can't sleep flat. So it is insomnia and pain that keep me awake as well as a mind that doesn't like to switch off. The latter is probably a cause for many people's insomnia.

Thank you again.....the resources you have provided have been very helpful. I will check out these ones right away.



Thanks for your suggestions April. I am staying away from meds as I don't feel they will resolve the issue....they may provide a couple of nights sleep but then the insomnia is worse afterwards.....not worth it and definitely not the answer.

My mind does not know when enough is enough! Having a mind that doesn't quit is beneficial most of the time.....just not at bedtime.

I am attempting to master proper breathing techniques as I think that will help greatly.



I agree that age probably has something to do with it.....I'm 47 and this started about 3 years ago. Oh the joys of being a woman sometimes!

It usually takes between 3-5 hours for me to fall asleep once I begin my bedtime routine. I spend about 2 of those hours reading and the rest tossing and turning. Once I am asleep I am usually able to stay asleep for about 2 hours at a time........I then stay in bed and toss around for a short period (10-20 minutes) and go back to sleep. I always get up after the 3rd 2 hour 'nap'.



Sadly, I think when docotors are baffled it is not uncommon for them to say...."oh well, guess you'll just have to live with it". This isn't always a bad thing as it forces us to look beyond traditional medicine, which often results in finding the right treatment/cure.



LOL.....I am hoping beyond hope that Sal sees this thread. I have a huge amount of respect for her knowledge.



Yeah! You saw the thread!

I think I am okay with vitamin D3.......I make an effort to spend, at the very least, 1 hour in the sun. Usually it is much more but if I'm tied to my PC for the day I will take 3 20 minute breaks specifically to go and get my sunshine.

I do have a very high metabolism and never even considered it as being part of my sleep issues. It does make complete sense to me now.

I agree with the harder you try the harder it is to fall asleep. I dread going to bed! At one point my entire day was consumed with planning how I was going to work on going to bed each night.....it was crazy and not helping at all....in fact, made things worse !

I always have a cup of chamomile or passion flower tea before I go to bed. I also read for atleast 2 hours (something light and not business related).

How do I feel after my sleepless/restless nights? I can function fine. I often wonder if I could be functioning better though....better concentration being my main hope. However, I think that has more to do with my mind that never stops.

I'm actually not so much concerned about the amount of sleep I get, the issue for me is more about the struggle to get to sleep and then to have a "good" sleep.....regardless of how long it is.

I can be up for a full 24 hours and will still require 3-5 hours to fall asleep.

Thanks for your input Sal and if you have any other suggestions I would love to hear them.

And yes....I do go by Jackie....actually most people call me Jaq.



I love your attitude Kurt. I do consider myself fortunate that I have settled on a business that allows for my crazy sleeping habits. However, I am considered rather abnormal amongst my friends and family. But...then again...I am abnormal (thankfully) so I guess it all goes hand in hand.

Maybe I should just move to Vegas!



I definitely use the insomnia to my advantage. Most nights I am working and find I am most productive during the late night and wee hours of the morning.



No coffee?!?!?!?!? I not only need my morning coffee....I LOVE my morning coffee! But, I hear you, zero caffeine is probably the way to go (it was extremely painful for me to type that).

I have been attempting to eat healthier. I have never had a bad diet, I just don't eat much to begin with. I am going to make the effort to increase my food intake and keep it healthy.

I am outside several times a day with my dogs. We walk through the woods or play ball. However, I am not really exerting myself. I love walking and hiking so I think I will start taking vigorous walks daily in addition to just playing with the dogs and watching them run around.



You are so right......lifestyle changes are the real answer!

I am a nature lover too and could spend hours exploring and enjoying every aspect of it. I need to start doing that more....thanks for the reminder!

I have dabbled with meditation and would love to explore it further. I know it will take a great deal of work to feel the full benefits, but I welcome the challenge.



I love to read and do it for atleast 2 hours before bed each night. Sadly, it doesn't seem to help me fall asleep though.



Thanks for letting me know about the "Sleep" CD....I'll check it out. I do try to listen to relaxing music and have even purchased one of those sound machines.




LOL.....I can so relate to the theory of "if I stay up longer, I'll finally sleep tonight"......I tried that for so long! You are right....it does not work!

I've tried passion flower tea but I have not tried the drops. Will there be much difference? The passion flower tea doesn't seem to do much.

I think I am slowly starting to be more accepting of my unique sleeping habits and am trying to approach it as "this is just the way I am". I'm still not liking it though!



I think you're right Ken. What you describe is not what I would consider insomnia. As Sal mentioned earlier, not everyone needs the same amount of sleep.

My issue is about getting to sleep......I really don't care how long I sleep once I get there.

Thanks for sharing your sleep remedies.....unfortunately, I don't drink milk so won't be able to try them.



Thank you for that link! Unlike this woman, I am not scared to go to bed, but I do dread it. I am going to look into the carb-rich diet......I love my carbs and I love kiwi!



Thanks Ken....I'm going to check out that link right now!

Subliminal audios with nlp messages. Worth a try for a few bucks per track, instant download. Just Google.

Another one I would try, as a believer, is to pray. This is nothing more than talking to your creator and asking for help. Or, ask what is causing the problem.

If you owned a Ferrari, who would you go to to get it fixed? Ferrari or Ford?

Another possible solution is affirmations. "I am so grateful for the solid night's sleep I had last night", "I feel so refreshed after sleeping soundly last night" etc.

These techniques can lead you to the right solution if not working in themselves.

Just throwing those in to give you more options.

1. Two benadryl (over the counter small/pink allergy pill med.)
2. A fan (noise).
3. Cool temp. room.
4. Sleep for 8 hours.

I wouldn't take this everyday, sometimes you just need sleep.

IM Retired suggested Tryptophan, Serotonin and Melatonin.

I am pretty sure there is a new Over The Counter pill that contains 2 and maybe all 3 of these.
I know it has 3 items that are suppose to help you sleep but can't remember the items completely or the name of the Item itself....but if you go to your local drug store,I'm sure you can find it.
I know I've seen it already on the shelf.

I think the coffee stuff might vary by individual. At one point I was having 2 large cups nearly the last thing before I went to bed, and I would still be asleep in 5 minutes.

After drinking a full pot of it a day for years I quit completely for a year and a half, and nothing about my sleeping changed.

My ISP is my interrupted sleeping pattern. I just make use of the time and adapt. It's one of the best things about computers.

Lynn has it right that carbs can make you drowsy. I used to watch people scarf down sandwiches and pizza and things like that for lunch and they'd just be falling out, not able to concentrated about a half hour after they ate. I eat heavy before bed - always have. Some people can't sleep at all if they do that.

You might just have a bio-rhythm problem and aren't able to slow your head down.

Now if you are sure that you actually are ready and want to sleep and can't - it could be a mind won't turn off kind of thing as some suggested already. What you need is to get the right wavelengths cranking to bring up a wavelength of thought that is trancy or semi-conscious. That wavelength is purple.

Shut your eyes and visualize a light bulb with string attached - don't think about it - see it. That might take practice. Once you can see the light bulb, see your hand reach up and pull the string. Turn it on to red. Once you can see the red light, then pull the string again to turn the light to orange. Pull again and turn it to yellow - repeat for green then blue, don't do this fast, take your time and relax - when you reach purple, let just let the light bathe anything in your head. Try to just visualize the purple light, that's alpha waves. Don't concentrate hard though. If something else comes to mind, just bathe it in that purple light - if you are still awake. That should knock you out if you are doing it right.

Here's what you should do:

Tai Chi 24-form - YouTube

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I was in the same boat for a very, very long time.

These things helped:
* Drop the temperature in the room to around 64 degrees
* Take very low dose Seroquil. I take 6.25mg. The lowest dose you can buy is 25mg, so I have to cut that into quarters

I have taken Ambien and over-the-counter stuff, it all sucks very bad.

The responses in this thread have been amazing.....thank you, thank you, thank you!

I am going to try a few of the suggestions and will keep you updated.

Sweet dreams my friends.

I have bought an ebook package written by a nutritionist and researcher who has written a lot about all aspects of health. He has one book dedicated to sleep. This is some of the info he wrote. IT may help people here. I am going to try his ideas myself.

The room MUST be black. No lights showing anywhere. If there is anything, turn it off or cover it so you can't see light. "Light pollution" has been shown to badly affect different animals and birds, let alone humans. It can actually cause depression.

Anything that runs on electricity or batteries should be off if possible or nowhere near your bedroom. The electricity interferes with the body's natural vibrational frequency and disrupts sleep. Also, your natural frequency is about 8 hertz when you're calm but can go up to 40 hertz if you are stressed and that is enough to also disrupt sleep.

ALWAYS have a window open to let oxygen into your bedroom while sleeping. Without oxygen your body can't detoxify and relax...therefore it's harder to sleep.

You should go to bed between 9-10pm and be up by 6am every day to maintain a good body clock. Outside of these times and you can affect your body's natural rhythm in a complicated way I can't really explain without copying his notes and it is a copyrighted book.


Anyway, those are the key points he made and I think they are all valid and am going to see if they make a difference to my sleeping quality and quantity. Good luck to all.

Jacqueline,

According to my doctors, I had the worst case of insomnia they had ever seen. I was a single parent of a very ill child who often woke in the middle of the night needing to go to the emergency room. I trained myself to not sleep and I went without sleep for about twelve years.

I tried everything to break the "habit" including drugs and alternative methods such as hypnosis. Nothing worked until a general practioner asked me to try Elavil (Amitriptyline). He started me out thirteen years ago at 10 mg a night. I take it around 7 pm and I am dead to the world around 10 pm. If I forget to take the pill I stay awake all night. Now I can't live without it and it has changed my life for the better. The only trick is that, like other medicines, you can become immune to certain dosages. My doctor monitors me and increases the dosage as necessary.

If you haven't tried Elavil yet I highly recommend you ask your doctor about it. It was created to treat depression but most folks hated it because it put them to sleep!

Bonnie

I read that smart people sleep very late or have night troubles.
take it or not the truth is that you can't sleep because you always think

Ha ha, I love your name - is it for real? I've always been a big fan of Jacqueline Smith ever since she starred on Charlie's Angels way back in the day! Her character's name on the show was Kelly Garret. She was my favorite "Angel."

Other than that, I have nothing to add to all of the great tips in this thread.

I think CPAP/BiPAP is the best therapy to get rid of any kind of sleep related disorder.