Russia does what could be considered....

Robert Michael

11 years ago

It's not good, but I can't say it surprises me.

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seasoned

11 years ago

Well, they did something similar in the 1960s, and the general consensus was that it brought us close to WWIII! And THEN, they were 90 miles away! HERE, technically, they were MUCH closer. As I said, Guam is a US possession under the control of the US with US military bases. For all intents and purposes, it IS the US. Every major nation, INCLUDING RUSSIA, should know that.

Steve

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hardraysnight

11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Well, they did something similar in the 1960s, and the general consensus was that it brought us close to WWIII! And THEN, they were 90 miles away! HERE, technically, they were MUCH closer. As I said, Guam is a US possession under the control of the US with US military bases. For all intents and purposes, it IS the US. Every major nation, INCLUDING RUSSIA, should know that.

Steve

for all intents and purposes except citizenship and sweatshops

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seasoned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by hardraysnight

for all intents and purposes except citizenship and sweatshops

Yeah, I don't know about either of those. Mere possessions, of whatever land, generally don't convey citizenship to the mainland. I have heard of such cases with at least 3 countries(the us, uk, and I think Denmark have the same deal). It IS a weird type of limbo. Look at puerto rico. IT is a possession of the US, and has a representative, but he, or is it she, has no vote, etc.... As for sweat shops, they have their own government. Barack is merely the president and I guess has final say. Almost like the queen in Canada. A number of possessions of the US have become states though. Some of the lower 48, alaska, and hawaii, for example. And certainly some in the UK have been incorporated.

Steve
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taskemann

11 years ago

Welcome to the club US. Russian bombers has flown over our heads since the Cold War. They don't respect anything that has to do with territorial borders.

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by taskemann

Welcome to the club US. Russian bombers has flown over our heads since the Cold War. They don't respect anything that has to do with territorial borders.

Yeah, but Norway is so relatively close, and so relatively tiny.

I once went on a little tour in denmark, and this stereotypical texan type(no offense to texas or texans) was there as well stating all this garbage that MIGHT have been true in the early 1900s, but certainly wasn't true THEN! We saw this huge war ship denmark had. And that guy remarked about how easy it would be to destroy. I COULD have mentioned about another little country that once did the same thing. What I DID say was that they were a NATO member and, as such, many would come to their aid if that happened. And YEAH, norway is a member also. 28 nations including the US, canada, and the UK, but NOT russia!

OH, about the little country I mentioned? THEY had some large ships as well, and didn't know where to put them. So they put them in a little harbor. They WERE out in the open and seemingly easy to hit. The waters made it hard for submarines to attack though, and they were closer to where they might be needed. And they were sucker punched. They lost ships. So they entered a war, not unlike one NATO could eventually do, and eventually the company that sucker punched them was praying that the war would end, and they surrendered. That harbor became world famous..... PEARL HARBOR!

SO, hopefully, people will keep that in mind.

Steve

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taskemann

11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Yeah, but Norway is so relatively close, and so relatively tiny.

I once went on a little tour in denmark, and this stereotypical texan type(no offense to texas or texans) was there as well stating all this garbage that MIGHT have been true in the early 1900s, but certainly wasn't true THEN! We saw this huge war ship denmark had. And that guy remarked about how easy it would be to destroy. I COULD have mentioned about another little country that once did the same thing. What I DID say was that they were a NATO member and, as such, many would come to their aid if that happened. And YEAH, norway is a member also. 28 nations including the US, canada, and the UK, but NOT russia!

OH, about the little country I mentioned? THEY had some large ships as well, and didn't know where to put them. So they put them in a little harbor. They WERE out in the open and seemingly easy to hit. The waters made it hard for submarines to attack though, and they were closer to where they might be needed. And they were sucker punched. They lost ships. So they entered a war, not unlike one NATO could eventually do, and eventually the company that sucker punched them was praying that the war would end, and they surrendered. That harbor became world famous..... PEARL HARBOR!

SO, hopefully, people will keep that in mind.

Steve

Was it in Fredrikshavn you were? Because when I visited Fredrikshavn in Denmark in 2011, they had like 10 giant stealth destroyers or frigates lined up after each other in the local harbor. And that's much for a little country as Denmark which isn't much larger than south-Irland.

But Denmark has always been a strong naval nation because of all the wars with Great Britain through the history.

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by taskemann

Was it in Fredrikshavn you were? Because when I visited Fredrikshavn in Denmark in 2011, they had like 10 giant stealth destroyers or frigates lined up after each other in the local harbor. And that's much for a little country as Denmark which isn't much larger than south-Irland.

But Denmark has always been a strong naval nation because of all the wars with Great Britain through the history.

Possibly. I toured a lot with my aunt(who's danish), and uncle. Later I toured some of europe by myself. OBVIOUSLY, it was a big harbor, so it was ONE of the havnerne(hope I got the gender right

) Anyway, it likely was fredrikshavn.

I visited in 1989.

Steve

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HeySal

11 years ago

Ah great. Another "Russia wants to kill the US" time in history. I remember the fright the cold war caused my mother's family (Russian immigrants who came over during the Bolshevik). They were scared crapless the family was going to get stuck in concentration camps like Japanese Americans did in WWII.

If I ever hear "Better dead than Red" again in my life, I'm going to go postal on the creep.

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Sal
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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Ah great. Another "Russia wants to kill the US" time in history. I remember the fright the cold war caused my mother's family (Russian immigrants who came over during the Bolshevik). They were scared crapless the family was going to get stuck in concentration camps like Japanese Americans did in WWII.

If I ever hear "Better dead than Red" again in my life, I'm going to go postal on the creep.

I doubt that was EVER a statement against russia or russians, but against COMMUNISM. I've had a number of russian friends, even from RUSSIA. I don't think any were communists, and KNOW some CLEARLY WEREN'T!

You have to admit, the russian government is not REALLY friends with the west. And the US is considered part of the west.

Steve

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HeySal

11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

I doubt that was EVER a statement against russia or russians, but against COMMUNISM. I've had a number of russian friends, even from RUSSIA. I don't think any were communists, and KNOW some CLEARLY WEREN'T!

You have to admit, the russian government is not REALLY friends with the west. And the US is considered part of the west.

Steve

You musta been dozing or are around a decade younger than me. YES. It was against the RUSSIANS. Who else was called RED back then? That term was used almost exclusively for Russians during the cold war. It was about communism - but it was communist Russia it referred to.

Back then being "offended" by anything anyone called you was basically just tough noogies.

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Sal
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Kurt

11 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

You musta been dozing or are around a decade younger than me. YES. It was against the RUSSIANS. Who else was called RED back then? That term was used almost exclusively for Russians during the cold war. It was about communism - but it was communist Russia it referred to.

Back then being "offended" by anything anyone called you was basically just tough noogies.

Geez...you're making me agre with seasoned.

China. Never heard of "Red China"?

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HeySal

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Kurt

Geez...you're making me agre with seasoned.

China. Never heard of "Red China"?

AH wow - I didn't even THINK of them. I remember the joke though:

What do you think about Red China? -- It' looks best with a white tablecloth.

Steve - Many people were slamming the Russians themselves, sorry to say. People weren't as clear about the difference between a gov and the people back then.

I remember a Russian woman who came to U of M one year. It was in 1980, I believe. People acted like she was here to take over the country - and that was long after the cold war. I'll bet you will still find Americans who will call a Russian a "commie".

If people "got" things like this - our country wouldn't be in the crap hole it's in right now.

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Sal
When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
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salegurus

11 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

AH wow - I didn't even THINK of them. I remember the joke though:
What do you think about Red China? -- It' looks best with a white tablecloth.

Sal
Don't joke about our "buds" China...
If it wasn't for them we would really be in the crapper right now,
16.5 Trillion and counting ...

PS. This is what it looks like:

I don't even know why they are competing with our military, all they have to do is call in the loan and that's us done...

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by salegurus

Sal
Don't joke about our "buds" China...
If it wasn't for them we would really be in the crapper right now,
16.5 Trillion and counting ...

PS. This is what it looks like:

I don't even know why they are competing with our military, all they have to do is call in the loan and that's us done...

Supposedly, they don't have THAT much. ALSO, from what I understand, they did NOT LOAN us the money, but rather helped finance the debt. A subtle distinction, but a substantial one. The US needs money, so they create financial instruments. They could be bonds or tbills, etc.... Someone then buys them. The interest rate has to be high enough to be enticing. If it is a short term on safe debt a low rate may be enough. If it is longer term or less safe the rate may be higher. When someone buys them, they can only sell them, or wait till maturity.

But if people stopped buying them, MAYBE the government would stop spending. Our yearly deficit is ASTOUNDING!

Steve

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HeySal

11 years ago

Originally Posted by salegurus

Sal
Don't joke about our "buds" China...
If it wasn't for them we would really be in the crapper right now,
16.5 Trillion and counting ...

PS. This is what it looks like:

<snip>

I don't even know why they are competing with our military, all they have to do is call in the loan and that's us done...

All we have to do is kick the fed to the curb and all our debts are suddenly gone. I don't think the World Bank thought far enough ahead to understand that when leaders get corrupt enough to install them on top of us that once they can't manage with the debt to them, they can just kick them to the curb as they are illegal as hell here.

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Sal
When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
Beyond the Path

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

All we have to do is kick the fed to the curb and all our debts are suddenly gone. I don't think the World Bank thought far enough ahead to understand that when leaders get corrupt enough to install them on top of us that once they can't manage with the debt to them, they can just kick them to the curb as they are illegal as hell here.

It's not quite that simple. Most people on this board, and any decent american is a CREDITOR! Would you like to see all your savings go up in smoke?

Steve

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

You musta been dozing or are around a decade younger than me. YES. It was against the RUSSIANS. Who else was called RED back then? That term was used almost exclusively for Russians during the cold war. It was about communism - but it was communist Russia it referred to.

Back then being "offended" by anything anyone called you was basically just tough noogies.

I AM about a decade or so younger than you, but we still considered Russia an enemy. STILL, we felt sorry for most russians because the media made them think we were evil and wanted to take over. I went to several schools, although the subject maybe only came up in three, and the schools were in california. NONE considered the russian PEOPLE enemies.

Think of it this way.... "better dead than red"??????? "better dead than russian"???? That doesn't make any sense! If they meant they wanted to kill russians, THAT didn't make sense either! There HAVE been russian immigrants, and many more from the USSR! The USSR is to russia as the UK is to great britain. They may be THOUGHT of being the same thing, but refer to the whole union and just one part.

NO, NONE of that makes sense! "Better dead than communist"? Now THAT makes sense! What it is is a different way of saying what patrick henry was said to have said..... "Give me liberty(from communism in this case) or give me death(I prefer to be dead if I fail)". The russian government is, for whatever reason, trying to spread their brand of communism all over the globe. As they infiltrate societies, the whole society reverts to communism.

Steve

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Thomas

11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Was this EVER done before?

Yes, they've been doing it for the past 60+ years. The US does it too... so does China... and the various European nations... and pretty much everyone else as well.

It's done for spying... it's done to poke and prod a potential adversary, to see how they respond if it were a real attack... it's done to let the other side know they are there... and sometimes it's done just because they can.

The Russians, in particular, are noteworthy for doing it all the time to the US and NATO. They can be found poking around quite a few European nations on a regular basis. The poke around North America too, approaching US airspace at least twice last year (the second time as part of a simulated attack on the US during war games in the Pacific).

They used to overfly US carrier groups on a regular basis during the Cold War too, and started doing so again, on and off, over the last decade.

If they're poking around Guam, they're probably just doing more of the same: they're having a look... seeing what you do in response... saying 'hey, look - here we are'... and giving a gentle reminder that they could probably vapourise a good deal of the island if they actually wanted to.

The Chinese have started to do it more and more too, by the way. And will probably get increasingly-aggressive over time. They've already gotten submarines close enough to US carriers to fire on them without being detected (but, in the first such acknowledged incident, surfaced to reveal themselves instead... which I'd imagine, probably didn't go down to well with the naval top brass).

The US does it too, of course. You just generally don't hear about it, unless things go wrong (e.g. the Hainan Island incident).

Originally Posted by seasoned

we felt sorry for most russians because the media made them think we were evil and wanted to take over.

Just like the US media did about them?

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas

Yes, they've been doing it for the past 60+ years. The US does it too... so does China... and the various European nations... and pretty much everyone else as well.

I meant to a US possession like this.

It's done for spying... it's done to poke and prod a potential adversary, to see how they respond if it were a real attack... it's done to let the other side know they are there... and sometimes it's done just because they can.

Spying can be done more covertly or something, and the other reasons are STUPID!

The Russians, in particular, are noteworthy for doing it all the time to the US and NATO. They can be found poking around quite a few European nations on a regular basis. The poke around North America too, approaching US airspace at least twice last year (the second time as part of a simulated attack on the US during war games in the Pacific).

They used to overfly US carrier groups on a regular basis during the Cold War too, and started doing so again, on and off, over the last decade.

If they're poking around Guam, they're probably just doing more of the same: they're having a look... seeing what you do in response... saying 'hey, look - here we are'... and giving a gentle reminder that they could probably vapourise a good deal of the island if they actually wanted to.

Yeah, that last part isn't very bright. There could be a sub nearby that could destroy the planes, and take care of one of THEIR possessions. Of course that would be the official start of WWIII most likely.

The Chinese have started to do it more and more too, by the way. And will probably get increasingly-aggressive over time. They've already gotten submarines close enough to US carriers to fire on them without being detected (but, in the first such acknowledged incident, surfaced to reveal themselves instead... which I'd imagine, probably didn't go down to well with the naval top brass).

The US does it too, of course. You just generally don't hear about it, unless things go wrong (e.g. the Hainan Island incident).

Just like the US media did about them?

It is rumored that the bombs dropped on Japan were dropped because a word was translated as REJECT! ONE WORD, and two cities were effectively obliterated. BTW at least one source saying that said that the word should have been translated CONSIDER. If it were translated as consider, the bombs might not have been dropped. It goes to show how a minor show of arrogance can cause a disaster.

Steve

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Thomas

11 years ago

Incidentally, if you can look past the obvious fact that they are machines designed to kill as many people as possible as quickly as possible, they are remarkable flying machines. The basic design is over 60 years old, and will be 100 years old by the time they are scheduled to retire (but don't let that fool you; there's a very good reason they still use them - by the time any modern jet gets anywhere close to them, it will already be too late... whatever they're carrying will already be well enroute to it's target, if not already there).

Oh, and they're big... really, really, really big, as you can see from the picture in the article...

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas

Incidentally, if you can look past the obvious fact that they are machines designed to kill as many people as possible as quickly as possible, they are remarkable flying machines. The basic design is over 60 years old, and will be 100 years old by the time they are scheduled to retire (but don't let that fool you; there's a very good reason they still use them - by the time any modern jet gets anywhere close to them, it will already be too late... whatever they're carrying will already be well enroute to it's target, if not already there).

Oh, and they're big... really, really, really big, as you can see from the picture in the article...

YEAH, but that isn't because they are weapons. The US has some plans created MANY decades ago and plans were supposedly destroyed because even TODAY they don't want them to get in the wrong hands. It is rumored that the russians have copies though. And the US stealth bomber and fighter were designed based on a rather obscure paper from RUSSIA! They actually designed it EXACTLY from the russian layout, and spent the rest of the time trying to morph it into a viable plan that could fly. For a while, they called it the hopeless diamond! Lockheed F-117 Nighthawk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In 1964, Pyotr Ufimtsev, a Soviet mathematician, published a seminal paper titled Method of Edge Waves in the Physical Theory of Diffraction in the journal of the Moscow Institute for Radio Engineering, in which he showed that the strength of a radar return is related to the edge configuration of an object, not its size.
...
The project began in 1975 with a model called the "Hopeless Diamond"[14][15] (a wordplay on the Hope Diamond because of its appearance). The following year, the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency issued Lockheed Skunk Works a contract to build and test two Stealth Strike Fighters, under the code name "Have Blue"

Steve

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lcombs

11 years ago

You know, the sad truth is that it's not conflicts of culture by the citizens.
It's a very small group of power mad individuals who cause all the problems.

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seasoned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by lcombs

You know, the sad truth is that it's not conflicts of culture by the citizens.
It's a very small group of power mad individuals who cause all the problems.

Yeah, Soviet Russia, Communist China, Nazi Germany, North Korea are ALL secret and limit speech. They would NEVER do that if they all agreed. Regarding NAZI, do you realize that Gestapo is actually a NICKNAME? It was the GEheim STAts POlizei, SECRET state police.

They all get a gang together, close communication, ridicule and stop dissention, start youth groups, and propagandize.

Steve
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socialentry

11 years ago

Originally Posted by lcombs

You know, the sad truth is that it's not conflicts of culture by the citizens.
It's a very small group of power mad individuals who cause all the problems.

The fact of the matter is if not a large group of people didn't agree with these power mad individuals, they would never have come to power in the first palce.

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by socialentry

The fact of the matter is if not a large group of people didn't agree with these power mad individuals, they would never have come to power in the first palce.

Not really. Sometimes one acquires power through battles, promises, theft, etc... and pops up. Hitler was made chancellor based on promises. Anyway, many clearly didn't know what he had in mind.

HECK, even the movie europa europa based on a REAL autobiography and done internationally done partially in german(It covers various countries), and shown internationally, even shows how young kids were FORCED to join, and how all were kept in check. The main character, who wrote the story, was a jewish person that managed to pass himself off as aryan, and had to join the hitler youth and fight as a NAZI soldier.

BTW while fighting the russians, he joins THEM, and you get to see how THEY were propagandized, etc....

Steve

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socialentry 11 years ago

Meh, we all have free will.
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Russia does what could be considered....

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