Campus Police unarmed - respond to shooting

by HeySal
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Campus police not allowed to be armed? WTF are they for?

Campus Police Unarmed at URI Gun Scare | WPRI.com
  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Just yesterday, I watched "paul blart mall cop". Paul showed a new recruit a trick to trick a suspect into thinking he might have a gun because, as he put it "As you know, mall cops DON'T have guns". The new recruit became a recruit ONLY to get access and the lay of the land, and was the leader of a group to try to steal money from the biggest retailers in the mall.

    It goes to show. YEAH, unarmed guards are there ONLY to WATCH, NOT to protect! The idea is to spot, through various means(rounds, cameras, phone, etc...) differences, assess the situation, and if there is imminent danger, to call the POLICE! The police will, of course, generally get there LATE, but hopefully can collect evidence. HOPEFULLY there won't be hostages!

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Security guards on campus, in casinos, at concerts, etc - are not highly trained and high skilled police personnel for the most part. Many are people who wanted to be in law enforcement but couldn't make it for some reason. These are for the most part low paid jobs with minimal training.

      There may be levels of authority that could carry weapons but I'd feel unsafe if all security guards were toting guns - I've known too many of them to feel safe with that. They are crowd and behavior control - not front line defense.

      Someone on campus said they thought someone said they had a gun - no shots fired, no gun found...but it's a sign of the times that it's a "rationale for arming guards".
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        Security guards on campus, in casinos, at concerts, etc - are not highly trained and high skilled police personnel for the most part. Many are people who wanted to be in law enforcement but couldn't make it for some reason. These are for the most part low paid jobs with minimal training.

        There may be levels of authority that could carry weapons but I'd feel unsafe if all security guards were toting guns - I've known too many of them to feel safe with that. They are crowd and behavior control - not front line defense.

        Someone on campus said they thought someone said they had a gun - no shots fired, no gun found...but it's a sign of the times that it's a "rationale for arming guards".
        You are right in what you said, but guards have FEW, if any, background checks. I have known some ALSO and, though some were my friends, I wouldn't have hired them. If a guard is armed, they should get a background check, have something to test their temper, etc.... and, as you implied, be given a raise. As I recall, it was typically like 50% to start. After all, they are more likely to be able to do ANYTHING a guard should. ALSO, ironically, they are less likely to NEED to!!!!

        Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author Adam Hill
          Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

          You are right in what you said, but guards have FEW, if any, background checks. I have known some ALSO and, though some were my friends, I wouldn't have hired them. If a guard is armed, they should get a background check, have something to test their temper, etc.... and, as you implied, be given a raise. As I recall, it was typically like 50% to start. After all, they are more likely to be able to do ANYTHING a guard should. ALSO, ironically, they are less likely to NEED to!!!!

          Steve
          Where is the testing to make sure trained cops don't loose their temper and take it out on the public when it's not warranted? Too many cops have little man syndrome and want to bully someone to make up for their bullied childhood. That being said, what would be even better than armed security guards is to have more responsible people with their CCP's. After all, an armed society is a polite society.
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      • Profile picture of the author HeySal
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        Security guards on campus, in casinos, at concerts, etc - are not highly trained and high skilled police personnel for the most part. Many are people who wanted to be in law enforcement but couldn't make it for some reason. These are for the most part low paid jobs with minimal training.

        There may be levels of authority that could carry weapons but I'd feel unsafe if all security guards were toting guns - I've known too many of them to feel safe with that. They are crowd and behavior control - not front line defense.

        Someone on campus said they thought someone said they had a gun - no shots fired, no gun found...but it's a sign of the times that it's a "rationale for arming guards".
        Oh I agree that not all security should have arms - but there are times when an organization - especially a school, should spring the bucks for REAL security and not a glorified babysitter. To have an average security guard - (read: high school grad in uniform) armed might be stupid - but for a school to hire one for in school hour security is just as inane. For in school hours where real crises involving hundreds of kids can occur, they need ex military or police force level security. I had always assumed that school hour security were qualified.
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        Sal
        When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

          To have an average security guard - (read: high school grad in uniform) armed might be stupid - but for a school to hire one for in school hour security is just as inane.
          TWO problems with that statement! FIRST, I have known guards that got a GED! Some possibly didn't even have that!

          SECOND, WHO said they were sane!?!?!?

          Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            I think we (and others) are on the wrong track. We are looking at guns and guards to "protect us".

            There is a better way in my opinion to secure schools and workplaces - and the technology has been around for years.

            Sandy Hook doors were locked and the shooter forced his way in by breaking the locks.

            What if an automatic, recognizable, school wide alarm sounded if an exterior door was breached? What if classroom doors were steel with deadbolt locks. What if teachers were trained to immediately lock the doors the moment they heard that alarm.

            There are even systems that can activate automatic lockdowns if a door is breached.

            There are invisible alarms that could send a signal to the school office or security office if someone approached a locked door - and cameras could clearly show who was attempting to enter the school.

            The office or security guard could (in seconds) activate a lockdown or broadcast a "close doors" announcement or a secondary interior alarm. Having a system would allow students to know what to expect and how to react - and that alone could protect them.

            To me the focus shouldn't be on guns in schools or "getting" the attacker - it should be on protecting the children from harm until police arrive. After every school tragedy people talk of panic and not knowing what to do.

            The answer to protection is having a system everyone knows about and is trained for. Hoping an armed security guard will show up in time is not a system.
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            • Profile picture of the author Brian John
              although a bit fanatical, uncle ted articulates some good points. his enthusiasm here cracks me up...

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            • Profile picture of the author HeySal
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              I think we (and others) are on the wrong track. We are looking at guns and guards to "protect us".

              There is a better way in my opinion to secure schools and workplaces - and the technology has been around for years.

              Sandy Hook doors were locked and the shooter forced his way in by breaking the locks.

              What if an automatic, recognizable, school wide alarm sounded if an exterior door was breached? What if classroom doors were steel with deadbolt locks. What if teachers were trained to immediately lock the doors the moment they heard that alarm.

              There are even systems that can activate automatic lockdowns if a door is breached.

              There are invisible alarms that could send a signal to the school office or security office if someone approached a locked door - and cameras could clearly show who was attempting to enter the school.

              The office or security guard could (in seconds) activate a lockdown or broadcast a "close doors" announcement or a secondary interior alarm. Having a system would allow students to know what to expect and how to react - and that alone could protect them.

              To me the focus shouldn't be on guns in schools or "getting" the attacker - it should be on protecting the children from harm until police arrive. After every school tragedy people talk of panic and not knowing what to do.

              The answer to protection is having a system everyone knows about and is trained for. Hoping an armed security guard will show up in time is not a system.
              Jesus, Kay - - they have systems like that. They're called.........JAILS.
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              Sal
              When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
              Beyond the Path

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              • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

                Jesus, Kay - - they have systems like that. They're called.........JAILS.
                Yeah, you have a point. I kind of had a kind of passive resistance when my school did that. I made a joke of it. But if they had times, and the gates were more of a deterrence and protected perimeter, it could work well.

                Steve
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                • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                  Prisons use the term "lockdown" and the term is now applied in other situations as well - at least by the media and law enforcement.

                  Part of the lockdown is an alarm. My point is a system that works well to keep people in - could also keep people out.

                  The thought of sending a child to first grade in a school where guards walk around with weapons is not acceptable to me. A full security system that is used only in emergencies is less frightening to children than people walking around with guns. Every day tens of thousands of children safely go to school - they don't need to be reminded every day that the world is not safe, school is dangerous and that they need guns for protection.

                  I think our society tends to focus on a specific "cure" and fails to examine other potential defenses. We buy into the loudest voices calling for armed guards on one hand and massive gun control on the other - and don't stop to ask if there is a better way to protect kids.

                  No one calling for guns in schools mentions such weapons would have to be kept in high security fashion - and the more secure a gun is, the harder it is to get to and the longer it takes to get it ready to fire.
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  • Profile picture of the author dallas playboy
    I like the idea of steel doors and alarm systems that dead bolt the doors; However,
    what if the bad guy comes in when the halls are full of students, like between classes,
    and the doors lock everyone in the halls? It's a good tool, but police response may
    take too long, even five minutes, to handle the problem.

    Lots of teachers are veterans and know how to handle guns and not overreact; all you
    would need is four of them on campus, have access to body armor, and a weapon. Bad
    guy loses, good guys win, and children safe.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      You can find "what if's" for every scenario that occurs.

      Shooting at Sandy Hook lasted less than 5 minutes - cops arrived about 5 minutes after called. By the time an armed guard heard shots and got to the area - it would be too late. Guns in schools would have to be secured - how long to get the gun and load it?

      Or:

      Lock on exterior door is broken - activating panic button call to local police - activating alarm - alarm means teachers/students immediately close and securely lock hall doors and move students away from the door.

      Steel doors, high grade locks could keep students safe for 10 minutes....enough time for police to arrive.

      Schools are not responsible for catching or stopping criminals- they are responsible for keeping students safe until help arrives. That's where the focus should be in my opinion.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by dallas playboy View Post

      I like the idea of steel doors and alarm systems that dead bolt the doors; However,
      what if the bad guy comes in when the halls are full of students, like between classes,
      and the doors lock everyone in the halls? It's a good tool, but police response may
      take too long, even five minutes, to handle the problem.

      Lots of teachers are veterans and know how to handle guns and not overreact; all you
      would need is four of them on campus, have access to body armor, and a weapon. Bad
      guy loses, good guys win, and children safe.
      I was in one school, a LONG time ago, and they locked the GATES! In most areas, it would have been unlikely that a person could do much damage.

      I DOUBT many teachers are veterans.

      Even ONE well placed armed guard could easily prevent a murder spree from an outsider. I WOULD recommend maybe six, that could handle multiple problems, and gang up where needed, but many schools aren't THAT large. For many larger schools, they ALREADY have many people but they may be unarmed, are centralized, often at a corner of the campus, and work with minutia.

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Kids can't stay in school forever. Snipers can get them leaving, too. I would much rather have my kid attend a school with an armed guard that a system that locks them in........for any reason. If I had a school age kid today - I'd not allow them in the door of a public school.
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    Sal
    When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
    Beyond the Path

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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Before you have children you imagine a sweet, clean child who loves to do what you ask and is well behaved and fun at all times....then you meet your own child as a 2 yr old and dump those dreams for a while.:rolleyes:

      In the real world, you send children to public school, pay thousands per semester for private school or you home school. A lot of home schooling in my family tree but I know I don't have the inclination or patience for it.

      Another alternative is one my older son chose - you move to an area with great public schools. Not everyone can do that, though.

      When there's a school shooting we focus on the school involved - and for every parent the only school in mind is the one your children attend. But there are almost 100,000 public schools in the U.S.

      In fall 2012, over 49.8 million students will attend public elementary and secondary schools.

      Of these, 35.1 million will be in prekindergarten through 8th grade and 14.8 million will be in grades 9 through 12.

      An additional 5.3 million students are expected to attend private schools.
      Add more than a million kids in pre-kindergarten. That's a lot of kids.

      Sad truth is - there is no way to guarantee all of them will be safe. it's a price we pay for a complex society that treats mental illness as a "personal and private problem" and has guns readily available.

      Losing one child to violence is too high a price. Exposing that many kids to guns as a daily part of their routine is a high price, too.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        Another alternative is one my older son chose - you move to an area with great public schools. Not everyone can do that, though.
        ACTUALLY, in the US, there is a law against a school being TOO good! If it is TOO good, faculty may be moved to worse schools, and kids may be bused elsewhere! It is called school integration.

        Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Josh Monroe
    Anyone remember that Atlanta mall security guard (that just recently got fired) that was "armed" with a tazer?

    He's the reason "security" shouldn't be armed..
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