Images of Boston Bombing Suspects

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Here Are the Boston Bombing 'Suspects' -- Photos and Video, but FBI Needs Help

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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
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    • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      What makes these guys a suspect? There's probably +1,000 other backpacks on that one street during the marathon.
      I'm not qualified to know. The FBI ascertained them to be suspects. "Suspect" is not synonymous to "guilty." If those guys are innocent, they better clear their names ASAP.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        What makes these guys a suspect? There's probably +1,000 other backpacks on that one street during the marathon.
        They were in the exact area - they appeared to be together though one followed the other a few feet behind. A cam in a nearby store showed them setting down a backpack and walking away from it. Also mentioned was when the bomb went off, there was no reaction from those two men. They watched for a few minutes and then walked out of the area at a normal pace. Others were moving quickly - helping the wounded, etc...but not these two.

        If they are innocent they'll come forward - the images are everywhere and anyone who was at the race that day would be watching the news about it.
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        • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
          Also they have footage/image of one of them making a cell phone call at the time of one of the explosions. They are currently trying to get a line on all cell calls at that time at that place but said it is tedious and will take some time.

          Terra
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            I found that interesting - the FBI person said they gathered "all electronic transmissions - cell phone calls and social media activity - for a one mile radius during the time period before, during and just after the explosions.

            I didn't know that was possible (maybe everything that goes through a certain cell tower?) - but he went on to say gathering the info isn't hard - but going through all of it to analyze it takes a lot of time and might not turn up any evidence.

            I expect a lot of people are going through their own phone videos tonight to see if they caught an image of those two men.
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            • The Boston Marathon manhunt, the race is on: If these guys are not in a foreign country by now then there's a very good chance when you wake up tomorrow morning that Suspect #2 will be in custody (the unidentified man wearing the white hat backwards is who the print and electronic media around the world are calling Suspect #2).

              You heard it here first: if Suspect #2 is not caught tonight or early tomorrow morning then he will be in custody by Sunday night on April 21. Because he has TWO very distinctive features that a grocery store clerk, landlord, employer, teacher, mailman, cable guy, golf course attendant, liquor store clerk, Starbucks employee, or the neighbor next door can't help but notice:

              1) His side profile while not unique, is still very striking. From the side, his nose looks like an Olympic caliber ski ramp that caters to gold medal skiers. When viewed from the side, his nose has a sharp, radical angle that bowls you over and smacks you in the face. The cap, that he always wears backwards 24/7/365 because people are creatures of habit, illuminates his nose with a virtual bright light. The illumination is made brighter because most, but not all, of his hair is hidden. The lack of colored hair makes his nose all the more prominent. I'm sure someone like a neighbor, a local store clerk, or an employee at his local medical marijuana dispensary was struck by his obnoxious nose.

              2) And this will sink his ship: Kids like him who wear their ball cap backwards are a dime-a-dozen. Surprise, surprise, Suspect #2 is not in the dime-a-dozen category. No sir, this guys different. He wears his cap so his bangs stick out. What are bangs? Bangs are strands of hair that rest squarely on ones forehead and in many cases they hang low and touch the eyebrow. With a cap worn backwards, bangs are not alpha male. No, bangs on a man worn with a backwards cap might be considered boyish, preppy, effeminate, androgynous, gay, or "cute looking." On a photo shoot, a public relations agent would order his client, the next Justin Bieber, to show his bangs when wearing a cap turned backwards in order to appeal to 12 year old girls.

              The cap, the nose, the bangs, I guarantee that Suspect #2, if not hiding in another country, will be turned in by an acquaintance, a U.P.S. driver, or a friend very soon, perhaps as I type this, any second now. Bank on it.
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              • Holy fvck just turned the TV on to catch the news and there are more bombs going off in Massachusetts.
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    • Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      What makes these guys a suspect? There's probably +1,000 other backpacks on that one street during the marathon.
      I'm assuming you're American which means I could be wrong. But if you are, then you know LE fvcks up on occasion (i.e. Rampart Division in L.A./Mark Furhman in the OJ Simpson case/Ruby Ridge/1996 bombing at the summer Olympics in Atlanta, etc, etc.) . And with that I'll say LE would never would have released those pics if they weren't certain those two grenade chuckers were responsible for the Boston Marathon bombing. They had good reasons to release the pics, reasons they were not compelled to share with the public.
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      • Profile picture of the author yukon
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        • Originally Posted by yukon View Post

          The rest of your comment contradicts itself, especially when comparing to Ruby Ridge.
          Yes it does, Captain Obvious.
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  • Profile picture of the author ocim1
    still investigate, but i hope the suspects immediately arrested
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  • Profile picture of the author Scotty Bee
    When will it end?
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      There are reports these people had some type of explosives - but that's not been confirmed. They stole a car then shot a cop, then had a gun battle with cops - both are in custody now. Probably not the same guys but sure would be nice, wouldn't it?
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  • Profile picture of the author Sarevok
    I need to move out of this ******* town.

    Haha.

    Kidding.

    PS: wanted to comment on what Mr Glorious Basterd said.

    White cap dude is gonna get caught first. Discussed this earlier with my friends.

    Prominent nose will get him caught. (especially if he's local).

    I wonder why he was so blatant about showing his face though? Seemed very confident about everything. Everyone knows cameras are everywhere now adays. The other guy seemed to cover his face better.
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    • Originally Posted by Sarevok View Post

      PS: wanted to comment on what Mr Glorious Basterd said.
      White cap dude is gonna get caught first. Discussed this earlier with my friends. Prominent nose will get him caught. (especially if he's local).
      I wonder why he was so blatant about showing his face though? Seemed very confident about everything. Everyone knows cameras are everywhere now adays. The other guy seemed to cover his face better.
      If suspect #2 was trying to conceal himself then he would not have worn his cap backwards. He would have worn it with the bill pulled down low to hide his face. With the cap turned backwards the face is exposed, so it appears that he did not think, or plan, on covering his face as much as possible in an attempt to thwart electronic surveillance. As I type this post out LE is hot on the heals of suspect #2 and it appears that suspect #1 has been caught BUT law enforcement has not confirmed if either suspect is related to the Boston Marathon bombing. Watching it unfold in real time, as I type this out, is a nice little rush. Hope we find out what sort of ideological agenda they were trying to promote in the first place, if they turn out to be the Boston Marathon bombers.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
        Originally Posted by Inglourious Basterd View Post

        If suspect #2 was trying to conceal himself then he would not have worn his cap backwards. He would have worn it with the bill pulled down low to hide his face. With the cap turned backwards the face is exposed, so it appears that he did not think, or plan, on covering his face as much as possible in an attempt to thwart electronic surveillance. As I type this post out LE is hot on the heals of suspect #2 and it appears that suspect #1 has been caught BUT law enforcement has not confirmed if either suspect is related to the Boston Marathon bombing. Watching it unfold in real time, as I type this out, is a nice little rush. Hope we find out what sort of ideological agenda they were trying to promote in the first place, if they turn out to be the Boston Marathon bombers.
        Maybe instead of hiding his ID, by wearing his hat backwards, he was a non-American trying to blend in with the crowd?
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        • Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

          Maybe instead of hiding his ID, by wearing his hat backwards, he was a non-American trying to blend in with the crowd?
          You think he looks like a foreigner? I thought he looks like a Caucasian you'd see on a golf course in California but then I could be wrong. They didn't strike me as two Koran thumping, jihadist killers like Bin Laden and Mohammda Atta turned out to be. Unfortunately moments ago suspect #1 was confirmed dead, suspect #2 still on the run.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kurt
            Originally Posted by Inglourious Basterd View Post

            You think he looks like a foreigner? I thought he looks like a Caucasian you'd see on a golf course in California but then I could be wrong. They didn't strike me as two Koran thumping, jihadist killers like Bin Laden and Mohammda Atta turned out to be. Unfortunately moments ago suspect #1 was confirmed dead, suspect #2 still on the run.
            I don't have an opinion on whether or not they are American, don't have enough info. I only suggested a possible alternative concerning the backwards baseball cap.

            It's possible the person was more concerned with fitting in that concealing his ID, and also possible he didn't normally wear a cap.
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            • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
              Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

              I don't have an opinion on whether or not they are American, don't have enough info. I only suggested a possible alternative concerning the backwards baseball cap.
              I'm getting reports in that they are Chechens. Now that's an interesting development, if true.
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              • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

                I'm getting reports in that they are Chechens. Now that's an interesting development, if true.
                That's what I've seen, too.

                As for the backwards hat, I don't get the impression he normally wears a hat, let alone backwards. The hat looks new and doesn't fit properly, especially backwards. Your typical "backwards cap guy" wouldn't go out like that. He was wearing it that way to Americanize himself in the moment. He didn't care about getting caught after the bombs went off. He probably never expected to live as long as he has.

                My opinion, obviously.
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              • Profile picture of the author derekwong28
                Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

                I'm getting reports in that they are Chechens. Now that's an interesting development, if true.
                Yes and they are brothers

                Dzhokar Tsarnaev is Suspect At Large, Tamerlan Tsarnaev is Suspect Killed in Firefight
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              • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

                I'm getting reports in that they are Chechens. Now that's an interesting development, if true.
                I just caught a little bit of the news. Apparently they came here when they were (paraphrasing) "too young to know or care about anything that might cause this reaction". Further, one was "naturalized" 2012, and I could SWEAR they said september 11th! "naturalized" ONLY means that they got someone to sign some documents, etc... to be considered citizens. SUPPOSEDLY, nobody thought them capable of this.

                As for the bangs and hat? NOT that unusual! As for the nose? It may sound racist, etc... but MANY semetic groups are like that, and their entire family, culture, friends, etc.... may be similar! AGAIN, NOT that unusual.

                HATS can be removed or changed!

                BESIDES, hair can be changed ALSO!

                Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Sarevok
    Where's my man Steven Seagal when you need him

    (shit's hitting the fan dude lol)
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  • Profile picture of the author Sarevok
    OH SNAP

    IT'S THE MARATHON BOMBERS

    GET EM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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    • When the pics were first released 5/6/7 hours ago I thought they looked like pussies. Turns out I was wrong. Big gun-battle tonight, then they lobbed grenades at the cops. Suspect #2, at one point, was a hundred yards from the cops sitting in an SUV. He then hit the gas pedal and accelerated in high gear straight towards the cops tearing off the side doors of two police cruisers all while taking gunfire - a resident in the hood reported seeing that happen. If they are the Boston Bombers, I look forward to finding out why they decided to set bombs off at the Boston Marathon.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sarevok
    ONE OF THE SUSPECTS IS DEAD! SUSPECT 1 IS DEAD!!
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  • Profile picture of the author Sarevok
    can't mess with Boston's finest baby

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  • Profile picture of the author Sarevok
    Just because they don't look physically tough, doesn't mean they aren't very determined mentally. So, can't really call them pussies. (hate to compliment them though).

    The white hat dude is on foot now, so he has limited resources.

    Unless he has a crime syndicate we don't know about, I don't think it will be long...

    (I'm also very interested to find out what their motive was.. I'm sure today will be laden with details).
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  • Profile picture of the author Sarevok
    I wonder how this all started?

    (it's been a wild night)

    My guess: bombers tried to boobytrap MIT with bombs, MIT officer caught them in the act, officer opened fire. Officer gets shot. Then bombers carjack a car. (crazy shit man)
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  • Profile picture of the author derekwong28
    duplicated message
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  • Profile picture of the author derekwong28
    Here are better pictures and they do look Caucasian to me.

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  • Profile picture of the author rondo
    So who was the guy stripped naked and arrested an hour ago?
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    • Originally Posted by rondo View Post

      So who was the guy stripped naked and arrested an hour ago?
      Yeah that's what they were saying happened to suspect #1 a few hours ago BUT then turns out he was shot dead. The strip/arrest appears to be total misinformation but it's a fact suspect #1 is confirmed dead.
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      • Profile picture of the author rondo
        Originally Posted by Inglourious Basterd View Post

        The strip/arrest appears to be total misinformation...
        I saw him on Fox. I wonder who he was, poor dude. At least they pixelled out his bits.
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        • Originally Posted by rondo View Post

          I saw him on Fox. I wonder who he was, poor dude. At least they pixelled out his bits.
          The media reported LE arrested someone, took pictures of him and then stripped him - not sure who they were referring to.
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  • Profile picture of the author rondo
    Pundit Press: Naked Man Arrested By Police NOT a Suspect in Boston Bombings

    "A potential suspect taken into custody earlier this evening, who was commanded to strip naked by police, was not involved in the Boston Marathon bombings, according to multiple sources."
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    • This may be a premature statement on my part but I'll say it anyway: As a fugitive on the run suspect #2 is hella good at fleeing from the cops. Or put another way, it appears as if the cops screwed up big-time. LE had suspect #2 cornered. S2 was right under their thumb. Cops and S2 had a massive shootout. Then S2 got in an SUV, turned it around and then drove through two cop cars, tearing the doors off of each police car. At this point in time LE still can't find him, he should have been arrested four hours ago. In the last 3 or 4 hours suspect #2 has turned a part of Massachusetts upside down. And that's the second time he's done that this week.

      Watch it live on CNN/FOX News/MSNBC: http://www.baqiworld.com/2011/10/watch-fox-news-live/
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  • Profile picture of the author Sumit Menon
    Weird. It's the same guy they say 4chan users identified. Really weird!
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  • Profile picture of the author TrumpiaTim
    Hope we can catch these guys sooner than later, what a tragedy...
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    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
      Originally Posted by TrumpiaTim View Post

      Hope we can catch these guys sooner than later, what a tragedy...
      One was shot dead hours ago now. Looking at the news, I don't see how the other ones going to last too long either.
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  • Profile picture of the author derekwong28
    Here is a profile of the suspects

    A Look at the Brothers - WSJ.com
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    • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
      Here is a poem written by, well anonymous.
      It speaks my sentiments exactly!

      I have a pen, it is in my hand
      With this pen I make my stand
      I write of a city tried and true
      Yes dear Boston, I write of you
      In the darkness a sparkling light
      Among the first to stand and fight
      A precious stone in Liberty's crown
      Freedom fighters still thrive in Boston town
      No stranger to innocent blood on cold hard stone
      It all started here, so let it be known
      We do not bow to terror, no not at all
      When freedom is at stake we neither stumble nor fall
      When tragedy occurs within our gate
      We are not consumed by anger or hate
      But be sure retribution is in our hand
      It spreads from here throughout our land
      "Boston Massacre" this headline is not our first
      It strengthens our resolve, fuels our thirst
      A long age ago it was written about by a man named Revere
      So remember terrorists, it is us that you must fear!

      Author "Anonymous Patriot"


      Terra
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        I turned on news just in time to see the uncle of a suspect being interviewed. Questions were being shouted at him and he was answering as best he could.

        When asked why he nephew would do this his answer was simple "he's a loser" - he said his own family distanced themselves from this relative several years go.

        Don't know the full story yet, of course, but it struck me that when it's a terrorist I can at least understand there is hatred. I don't agree and I despise it but the person has an agenda, right or wrong, that he believes in.. It seems this young man's only agenda was anger, discontent, entitlement - and to me that's more frightening.
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        Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world will change forever for that one dog.

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  • Profile picture of the author powerofschool
    If suspected catched by them , they should be punished seriously.
    So that others wont to these type of things again.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sarevok
    They still haven't found suspect #2?

    I might call a few of my drinking buddies to have an oldschool roundup.
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    • Originally Posted by Sarevok View Post

      They still haven't found suspect #2?

      I might call a few of my drinking buddies to have an oldschool roundup.
      Harry Houdini reincarnated: Tsarnaev is flat on his back lying dead in an abandoned warehouse with a bullet in his head or he's the Master of Escape. Cops might be looking in the wrong place. He might have stolen another car. He could be in New York by now.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        They still haven't found suspect #2?
        They will find him - I have no doubt of that.

        I hope they catch him alive - otherwise we'll have years of speculation and conspiracy theories about how we got the wrong people, blah blah.
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        Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world will change forever for that one dog.

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        • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          They will find him - I have no doubt of that.

          I hope they catch him alive - otherwise we'll have years of speculation and conspiracy theories about how we got the wrong people, blah blah.
          There is no doubt in my mind that they got the right people. It would be useful to know if others were involved and what framed their minds towards going in this destructive and stupid direction, stupidly damaging whatever their cause was (their own uncle said they shamed their entire ethnic group), and pointlessly killing, maiming, and permanently disfiguring so many totally innocent people, children and adults alike. Was it websites, local extremists, brain damage, what?
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        • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
          That's going to happen no matter what unfortunately.
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          ... otherwise we'll have years of speculation and conspiracy theories about how we got the wrong people, blah blah.
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  • Profile picture of the author LarryC
    I just don't understand the attitude of assuming what the government and mass media report is the absolute truth.

    To me, the real point here is the headline, Boston on Lockdown, with pictures of tanks and armed soldiers occupying an American city --to supposedly find one man. This is something that we are supposed to get accustomed to. Maybe they'll have to declare martial law just to prevent future acts of terrorism.

    Boston Marathon bomber manhunt: City on lockdown as authorities hunt for bomb suspect
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      For the same reason they robbed the guy whose car they stole - they didn't plan well for their attack. Had they had funds they could have been out of the country before they were found on the videos.

      Now they've got an Aunt on TV from Canada challenging the FBI to "give me evidence" - sorry, lady, too busy right now to bother with you. She's now claiming the "pictures were staged". Here we go on the "what they aren't telling you" crap.
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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by Patrician View Post

      So the news is lying to us again. One suspect turns out NOT even to be a suspect - they strip him naked and he is killed.........yet the media is claiming that these guys were throwing bombs at them?
      What kind of crapola are they feeding us? Non-suspects just run around with bombs, too?

      Okay - note - there was a Military DRILL on bomb response going on right there at the time and there are videos of the cops telling people to "stay calm, this is just a drill". There are people all over who were there that caught that on film and are saying so.

      This whole thing just stinks. Why is it that every time there is an "OFFICIAL drill" in an area, there's terrorism? Confirmed drills in town at: Colorado theater, 9/11, Sandy, Bostom Marathon.

      Originally Posted by LarryC View Post

      I just don't understand the attitude of assuming what the government and mass media report is the absolute truth.

      To me, the real point here is the headline, Boston on Lockdown, with pictures of tanks and armed soldiers occupying an American city --to supposedly find one man. This is something that we are supposed to get accustomed to. Maybe they'll have to declare martial law just to prevent future acts of terrorism.

      Boston Marathon bomber manhunt: City on lockdown as authorities hunt for bomb suspect
      Yep - and people are swallowing it hook, line, an sinker. I guess nobody read the book about Operation Northwoods. Trying to find a few of those zoom pics of the crowd - those black hats are everywhere and if you zoom in some say Craft, and some have Blackwater logos on them. The guys are in black jackets and tan pants and are all over the place. If people don't know who Craft and Blackwater are, they really should catch up a little bit.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        No one reported bombs were thrown at them - it was grenades tossed out of a stolen car. Why would people who don't have access to the facts - aren't in the area - and weren't attacked - feel the need to start playing their conspiracy theories?

        What I see are people parroting (yes, parroting) Alex Jones and some other blogs that are posting rumors they are making up as they go.

        The "safe - it's a drill" claim is being blasted on all those blogs - but in spite of claims of "many videos" - not one single video seems to be available. That's par for the course for these people.

        What I find disgusting is that some people are so anxious to bash govt and cops and promote their anti- political agendas...they will say anything. Truth doesn't matter - honesty doesn't matter - and the victims don't matter. All that counts is proving "they" are out to get "us".

        For people like Jones all that counts is that readers keep coming back for more and turn into followers.

        I don't care if people want to believe in underhanded designs on everything that happens but I find it so disrespectful to the victims to start spouting this stuff before the real facts are out there. The public doesn't have a right to every fact and detail the moment it's discovered - internet or not.
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        • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          No one reported bombs were thrown at them - it was grenades tossed out of a stolen car. Why would people who don't have access to the facts - aren't in the area - and weren't attacked - feel the need to start playing their conspiracy theories?

          What I see are people parroting (yes, parroting) Alex Jones and some other blogs that are posting rumors they are making up as they go.

          The "safe - it's a drill" claim is being blasted on all those blogs - but in spite of claims of "many videos" - not one single video seems to be available. That's par for the course for these people.

          What I find disgusting is that some people are so anxious to bash govt and cops and promote their anti- political agendas...they will say anything. Truth doesn't matter - honesty doesn't matter - and the victims don't matter. All that counts is proving "they" are out to get "us".

          For people like Jones all that counts is that readers keep coming back for more and turn into followers.

          I don't care if people want to believe in underhanded designs on everything that happens but I find it so disrespectful to the victims to start spouting this stuff before the real facts are out there. The public doesn't have a right to every fact and detail the moment it's discovered - internet or not.
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            I don't know what to believe but I do know this much.

            Somebody lost someone that they loved and they'll never see that person again.

            Somebody lost a limb and their life will never be the same.

            Many people have been traumatized by the whole event and THEIR lives will
            never be the same.

            I don't know about the rest of you, but as far as I'm concerned, the rest of it
            is just a lot of pointless noise.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            Of course security was high - it's high at most public events these days for good reason.

            A few years ago people wouldn't have been allowed to carry backpacks that close to the event - but the public complained loudly about their rights so those restrictions have been eased over time.

            As for Blackwater - that's straight from Alex Jones blog - where he says "these two men appear to have earpieces and SEALS insignias...but could they be private security from Blackwater?"

            Typical Jones - he didn't SAY they were Blackwater - he only ASKED if they might be. Of course from there the next blogs say "BLACKWATER present" and list Jones as the "source". Of course, undercover security could be dressed in anything - and while one person is touching his ear the other appears to be on a cell phone.

            Here's the TRUTH about the claim of "drills" - one person who was at the race told Jones contributor about "drills" that occurred before the race began. Dogs were sniffing the area, he claims there were "snipers" seen on rooftops and security measures were being tested. When people asked they were told it was "a drill".

            Now it's being said this same person said the "drill" statement was when the bombs went off....but that's not what he said at all. Lies and more lies - but bundled up as "could this be true?".

            Infowars.com reports that the photographs were sent to them by Anonymous, along with photos of two possible suspects the FBI asked media not to distribute, but which were later posted by the Drudge Report. The two men were subsequently cleared by the FBI,
            The FBI asked media not to distribute two photos - because these were not yet determined to be "suspects" - but Drudge and Anonymous knew better and posted them. FBI was right - those people weren't suspects and their privacy was violated by posting those photos.

            What I saw today was Alex Jones posting a bunch of suggestive "what if" or "is it true" articles insinuating quite a few things - and then other blogs within an hour or two were posting the same exact things as "FACT" and referencing Jones as the source. Now you look at google and see a couple pages of results and it looks real - but it isn't fact and it isn't real. It's conjecture and innuendo and agenda.

            It worries me when intelligent people buy into this stuff. It's fun to conjecture - but khaki pants and a dark polo may not be a uniform - a blurred insignia may not be the insignia you think you see or the image might be manipulated to suit the story.

            Another common claim is "there was a video but it's been removed" - really? A sensational video that goes online, goes viral and then just "poof" is gone? What goes on the internet stays on the internet - we know that....so why believe the "disappearing video" story over and over?
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        • Profile picture of the author LarryC
          << What I find disgusting is that some people are so anxious to bash govt and cops and promote their anti- political agendas...they will say anything. Truth doesn't matter - honesty doesn't matter - and the victims don't matter. All that counts is proving "they" are out to get "us".

          For people like Jones all that counts is that readers keep coming back for more and turn into followers.

          I don't care if people want to believe in underhanded designs on everything that happens but I find it so disrespectful to the victims to start spouting this stuff before the real facts are out there. The public doesn't have a right to every fact and detail the moment it's discovered - internet or not.>>

          People criticize Alex Jones for having an "agenda" and for wanting to profit from his so-called conspiracy theories. I don't doubt that he does this. But don't you think the mass media has its own agenda? While people like Jones may earn a few thousand from his relatively tiny media empire, the mainstream media earns billions.

          I don't see how blindly believing what you see on TV is respectful to victims. On the contrary, I think we should search for the truth, wherever that leads us. Does that mean blindly believing everything Alex Jones says? Of course not. But discounting what he says because you have preconceived notions of what is possible doesn't make sense either. It's not like the government and media have never lied to us.
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          • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
            Now we're slamming people for using their God given brains and following their gut instincts that tells them that something is wrong, that something stinketh?? WTH?

            People complain about all of the people being blind, mindless sheeples and then turn around and go off on them for not wanting to be one?

            Something does indeed, stinketh!

            Terra
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          • Profile picture of the author HeySal
            Originally Posted by LarryC View Post

            << What I find disgusting is that some people are so anxious to bash govt and cops and promote their anti- political agendas...they will say anything. Truth doesn't matter - honesty doesn't matter - and the victims don't matter. All that counts is proving "they" are out to get "us".

            For people like Jones all that counts is that readers keep coming back for more and turn into followers.

            I don't care if people want to believe in underhanded designs on everything that happens but I find it so disrespectful to the victims to start spouting this stuff before the real facts are out there. The public doesn't have a right to every fact and detail the moment it's discovered - internet or not.>>

            People criticize Alex Jones for having an "agenda" and for wanting to profit from his so-called conspiracy theories. I don't doubt that he does this. But don't you think the mass media has its own agenda? While people like Jones may earn a few thousand from his relatively tiny media empire, the mainstream media earns billions.

            I don't see how blindly believing what you see on TV is respectful to victims. On the contrary, I think we should search for the truth, wherever that leads us. Does that mean blindly believing everything Alex Jones says? Of course not. But discounting what he says because you have preconceived notions of what is possible doesn't make sense either. It's not like the government and media have never lied to us.
            Exactly. I look at the track record - and MSM is about zip compared to Jones' crew. He's got a great investigative crew - he's just personally a little hyper about stuff and it turns people off.

            How is it we can automatically trust a corporate media in a country now being corporate run itself -- considering this kind of thing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

            You've got to be a blithering fool not to look at both sides of an issue - especially when the results are causing things like whole city lockdowns - and that whole fiasco in CA not too long ago where the perp was torched without trial (a.k.a. - witch hunt).

            Frankly, the amount of corruption in this country that could have been cleared up already if people would have quit their tinfoil hat screaming and actually LOOKED at issues, is just staggering. I still remember being called a nut when I called the FED a bank. Wow - how paranoid, eh? And I am supposed to take tinfoil hat screamers serious NOW? Okay whatever.

            I don't see how any view of the event alleviates the horror of people being hurt and killed and any attempt to squelch news by trying to shame people for not taking the MSM view as law is over the top ridiculous.
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          No one reported bombs were thrown at them - it was grenades tossed out of a stolen car. Why would people who don't have access to the facts - aren't in the area - and weren't attacked - feel the need to start playing their conspiracy theories?
          I stated what I saw on the NEWS! They SHOWED and SAID that these guys were WALKING ON THE STREET! The bar underneath said they "THREW" explosives! HOW could it be from a car, if they were walking? And it could ****NOT**** be from a car! They shut down the area, and a car would be OBVIOUS!!!!!!

          BTW I haven't looked at AJ AT ALL in the past couple months!

          What I find disgusting is that some people are so anxious to bash govt and cops and promote their anti- political agendas...they will say anything. Truth doesn't matter - honesty doesn't matter - and the victims don't matter. All that counts is proving "they" are out to get "us".

          For people like Jones all that counts is that readers keep coming back for more and turn into followers.

          I don't care if people want to believe in underhanded designs on everything that happens but I find it so disrespectful to the victims to start spouting this stuff before the real facts are out there. The public doesn't have a right to every fact and detail the moment it's discovered - internet or not.
          GIVE ME A BREAK! Politicians are the most dishonest ones out there! If I lie on my resume or job, I could be disgraced, BLACKBALLED, and FIRED, but nearly every politician claims their job REQUIRES it! And YOU belittle people that call them LIARS?

          WOW!

          Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    On the news, they claim these guys "THREW" the devices. That is VERY unlikely! WHY?

    1. They would want to *********REALLY********* throw them! That means a CLEAR path, and not a simple toss. not only unlikely, but OBVIOUS!!!!!!!!!!!
    2. That means loss of control! Which means they would be more likely to hit people on the other side of the street rather than runners, etc.... ALSO, it could hit other areas. Such devices are made mostly to MAIM!

    Ever see someone throw a grenade? Incidentally, many grenades work similar to what they used. But when people throw them, it is OBVIOUS!

    In short, I side with the OLD idea of DELAYED explosion.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
    Boston Bombing Victim — Man Who Lost Legs Saw Bomber’s Face - Hollywood Life

    They got the actual perpetrators of that brutal mass-murdering terrorism, this time. I only hope that the other suspect lives long enough to reveal information on whether others were involved, then suffer horribly before he is exterminated.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Holy Hell -- we're supposed to get REAL news from a Hollywood rag now? Just because THEY reported it, it's good reason for me to look elsewhere for the real story underlying the news.
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    • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Holy Hell -- we're supposed to get REAL news from a Hollywood rag now? Just because THEY reported it, it's good reason for me to look elsewhere for the real story underlying the news.
      There is no shortage of news sources for this.

      Boston bombing victim saw one of the attackers drop a bag at his feet| The Sun |News


      More sources.
      https://www.google.ca/search?q=bosto...iw=887&bih=907
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      • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
        I'm sure he will be called an actor soon. The CTs will say he already had his legs amputated years ago and all that blood, bones and veins sticking out is fake. It's all a diversion so that the House of Reps can pass CISPA while we aren't paying attention. Hmm, only problem with that is CISPA was already once passed by the house. D'oh!
        Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

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        • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
          Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

          I'm sure he will be called an actor soon. The CTs will say he already had his legs amputated years ago and all that blood, bones and veins sticking out is fake. It's all a diversion so that the House of Reps can pass CISPA while we aren't paying attention. Hmm, only problem with that is CISPA was already once passed by the house. D'oh!
          It makes a mockery of legitimate issues concerning actual news blackouts or those pertaining to Blackwater/Xe/Academi. When issues concerning actual Blackwater crimes and abuses or mass media lies are presented, they'll often be dismissed with a reference to the misguided and debunked conspiracies on this tragedy.
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        • Profile picture of the author HeySal
          Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

          I'm sure he will be called an actor soon. The CTs will say he already had his legs amputated years ago and all that blood, bones and veins sticking out is fake. It's all a diversion so that the House of Reps can pass CISPA while we aren't paying attention. Hmm, only problem with that is CISPA was already once passed by the house. D'oh!
          I don't think anyone, no matter what "loony" label people want to stick on them, thinks that people were not hurt in this event. It WAS terrorism - the question is whether it is false flag or imported terrorist, or just someone else who's been fed too many psychotropic drugs.

          It's not at all like the Sandy school incident where there were a lot of events juxtaposed that made the whole incident appear to be a staged false flag. It chilled me to see the one "killed" kid's father laughing and joking when he thought he was off camera and then turning serious and somber for the camera. That was just too creepy to even think about. I completely stopped watching ANY news about Sandy, "official" or conspiracy oriented when I saw that one.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Kay - if you look at the videos you will see blackwater all OVER the place and when the first reports came out - there were all sorts of eye witnesses, some with video where you could hear the "cops" saying it's just a drill. Can't find em now? I favorited a few and can't find them now.

    I'm tired of people knocking Jones -- he sensationalizes EVERYTHING -- but he has an amazing track record for being right in the long run.

    Now - whatever the situation was with two private military organizations being heavily dispersed in the crowd, if you watch the films of where the first bomb exploded, you will see there were guards all over that area the whole freaking time...............whoever planted that bomb planted it RIGHT UNDER their noses and I don't care if you are examining the issue from the official story or from a conspiracy view, that's a very interesting fact that someone can plant bombs right under securities noses and they see nothing -- especially with Blackwater and Craft agents all over the place.

    Make of that what you will. That's not theory. That is fact -- and all you have to do is look at the videos to see them in their usual "uniform" dispersed through the crowd. It may or may not be "conspiracy" that there was a drill going on, but they were sure out in force............and it didn't stop one damned thing. So when you are calling people "nutcases" for not accepting the "official story" -- consider that these nuts listened to the first witnesses before the "official story" drowned them out -- and consider that maybe most people don't recognize Blackwater and Craft field uniforms. Maybe what people are calling "conspiracy nut cases" is just the usual way things go with people swallowing everything they are told as it is told to them and not wondering about anything that a corporate media says. If there were no drills going on = why was security so high and why the hell were they able to plant bombs right under security personelle's noses? That is a problem that needs examining. Why have security en force if they aren't better at it then that? Looking for kids smoking pot or what? And now we have a town on military lockdown. Kewl. Just freaking kewl.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Alex was right -- they ARE Blackwater uniforms. I've SEEN those uniforms before. SO what's your point? I didn't hear the FBI say ANYTHING -- I've heard MSM reporting who is saying what. When MSM tells me something - I go look for what they are distracting my attention from. Did ya know they voted on CISPA while everyone was watching MSM's incessant droll on this event? Guess whatever extra time MSM has on air they are reporting on Snooky or something instead.


    I'm still wondering how we can have a crowd filled with security - and many actually wearing vests standing right next to where the bomb was planted the whole damn time and not even noticing.
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  • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
    Some good cartoons on the media coverage of the incident:

    Cartoons of the Day- Boston Marathon Bombing Media Fail - The Political Carnival
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  • Profile picture of the author garyv
    What I don't understand is why people can throw up a huge fuss over being patted down at the airport, and then be ok with having the entire city on lock down to search for one person. I see a lot of illegal seizure and unwarranted searches going on.

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    • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
      Originally Posted by garyv View Post

      I see a lot of illegal seizure and unwarranted searches going on.
      A very valid point.

      On the other side of the coin, a known terrorist is "at large" in a neighbourhood. By the time all the legal niceties are obtained, he could either A) have committed more atrocities, or B) be long gone.

      It's a fine line between respecting the rights you mentioned and preventing either of the events I mentioned.

      BTW, I don't have an answer to which is the best/correct path to take.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

        A very valid point.

        On the other side of the coin, a known terrorist is "at large" in a neighbourhood. By the time all the legal niceties are obtained, he could either A) have committed more atrocities, or B) be long gone.

        It's a fine line between respecting the rights you mentioned and preventing either of the events I mentioned.

        BTW, I don't have an answer to which is the best/correct path to take.
        Do ****YOU**** know how he was found? NO? OK, let me give you the OFFICIAL story!!!!!!!

        The police NEVER found him! With all the searches, hoopla, etc... they NEVER found him! YEP, NEVER!

        A person went to his backyard, noticed some blood, tracked it down to a boat he had, and called 911. The police, responding to the 911 call, checked out the boat and found the guy there unresponsive in serious condition!!!!!! The underware bomber, shoe bomber, etc... were ALSO found without the help of the "authorities"!

        Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
    Extremist Boston mass-murderer may be surrounded
    Suspect 'surrounded' in boat behind home near Boston, sources tell Fox News | Fox News
    http://www.thestar.com/news/world/20..._at_large.html

    (Blackwater/Xe/Academi obviously failed miserably to protect civilians during Boston Marathon. They've always been incompetent. Don't waste more tax-money on them)
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  • Profile picture of the author TiffanyLambert
    I saw people in the neighborhood interviewed and they said there was no forced entry. They asked if they could come in and nobody refused. Who would and why? I'd sure as hell want my house searched to see if some terrorist was hiding out.
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    • Profile picture of the author Big Rob
      Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

      I saw people in the neighborhood interviewed and they said there was no forced entry. They asked if they could come in and nobody refused. Who would and why? I'd sure as hell want my house searched to see if some terrorist was hiding out.
      I would.
      My house would already be cleared and secured by me.
      I do not rely on anyone else for my familys safety.
      I would assure them no worries here.
      Let them talk to everyone in the house, on the front porch.
      Offer them a cold water, Thank them for their service,wish them luck and safety.
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      • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
        This photo is something else:

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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        I think it's stubborn - when an entire neighborhood is at risk most people are willing to cooperate with police to keep their family and neighbors safe.

        In a crisis - the safety of the many might trump the personal rights of one. May not be written anywhere - but that's how it often goes.
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      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
        Originally Posted by Big Rob View Post

        I would.
        My house would already be cleared and secured by me.
        I do not rely on anyone else for my familys safety.
        I would assure them no worries here.
        Let them talk to everyone in the house, on the front porch.
        Offer them a cold water, Thank them for their service,wish them luck and safety.
        Same here Rob.
        I'd let them check out my detached garage and would tell them of possible hide outs in the neighborhood that most don't know about. But my house would already be secure and they would not be allowed in.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

      I saw people in the neighborhood interviewed and they said there was no forced entry. They asked if they could come in and nobody refused. Who would and why? I'd sure as hell want my house searched to see if some terrorist was hiding out.
      WOW! I'm surprised a TEXAN would say that! If you invte them in, they are legally allowed to search EVERY BLASTED DRAWER if they see something THEY consider suspicious! Maybe people felt they COULDN'T refuse!

      Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author TiffanyLambert
        Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

        WOW! I'm surprised a TEXAN would say that! If you invte them in, they are legally allowed to search EVERY BLASTED DRAWER if they see something THEY consider suspicious! Maybe people felt they COULDN'T refuse!

        Steve
        There's a difference between police randomly coming to my house one Sunday afternoon and forcing their way in and coming to my home when a terrorist who just murdered people ran into my neighborhood and they ASK if they can come in.

        What I'm saying is who would refuse - people who had something to hide. I don't. I don't think in the heat of a manhunt they're going to be looking in my dresser drawers anyway.

        Don't get me wrong - I posted about the Active Duty vet being harrassed by cops in Temple, Texas - for legally carrying his rifle while walking w/his son for his Eagle Scouts achievement. I want my rights. What I'm saying is, I also respect those out there serving our community to catch the bad guys and I'm going to help that process, too.
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

          There's a difference between police randomly coming to my house one Sunday afternoon and forcing their way in and coming to my home when a terrorist who just murdered people ran into my neighborhood and they ASK if they can come in.

          What I'm saying is who would refuse - people who had something to hide. I don't. I don't think in the heat of a manhunt they're going to be looking in my dresser drawers anyway.

          Don't get me wrong - I posted about the Active Duty vet being harrassed by cops in Temple, Texas - for legally carrying his rifle while walking w/his son for his Eagle Scouts achievement. I want my rights. What I'm saying is, I also respect those out there serving our community to catch the bad guys and I'm going to help that process, too.
          How do YOU know you have nothing to hide? Maybe you have a picture of a child in your family in some sort of state of undress, or a book with an odd title, or nails, or fertilizer, or have your parents over! THAT is "something to hide". The world is WEIRD today! HECK, if a friend had an odd impression on the back of a bullet, brought it over to show you, and accidentally left it there, you could be in SERIOUS trouble! Suppose they just outlawed guns, saw the bullet, and now DEMANDED to see the gun? Sillier things happened before in the past decade.

          As for looking in your drawers? You think they just STOP doing such things?

          Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
    According to reports, suspect has been captured.

    EDIT: CONFIRMED

    -Chris
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  • Profile picture of the author Big Rob
    Confirmed ,suspect in custody
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  • Profile picture of the author visimedia
    always looks like this.... hat, bag, jacket, walking lonely....
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  • Profile picture of the author derekwong28
    FBI interviewed dead Boston bombing suspect years ago - CBS News

    "The FBI interviewed Tsarnaev, the elder brother of at-large bombing suspect Dzhokhar A. Tsarnaev, at the request of a foreign government to see if he had any extremist ties, but failed to find any linkage."
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  • Profile picture of the author garyv
    It was fun TV and all, but in Texas this would have been over several days ago. One Smith&Wesson could have saved Boston and the country millions of dollars.
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    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
      How's that? You think people don't have guns in Boston? Guns can stop bombs?
      Originally Posted by garyv View Post

      It was fun TV and all, but in Texas this would have been over several days ago. One Smith&Wesson could have saved Boston and the country millions of dollars.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

        How's that? You think people don't have guns in Boston? Guns can stop bombs?
        They are ****HIGHLY**** frowned on in boston, to say the least. The bombers apparently didn't have a car. They STOLE THEM!!!!!!! FROM THE OWNERS!

        Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
          People have guns in Boston. And carjacking happens in Texas.
          Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

          They are ****HIGHLY**** frowned on in boston, to say the least. The bombers apparently didn't have a car. They STOLE THEM!!!!!!! FROM THE OWNERS!

          Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          YOU belittle people that call them LIARS?
          No - I belittle people with agendas who don't mind trading on the tragedy of others to promote those agendas. I don't care if they are pols or bloggers or those who look for reasons to belittle every system in place.

          This was solved in 5 days - that's a good reflection on the people who live there and the authorities who worked this crime. People will second guess but don't they always?
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      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

        How's that? You think people don't have guns in Boston? Guns can stop bombs?
        Tim...don't tell anyone, but Texas has a higher violent crime rate than MA, as well as a higher gun murder rate. We don't want the facts to get in the way of their opinions.

        State Rankings--Statistical Abstract of the United States--Violent Crime Rate
        Gun violence in the United States by state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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        • Profile picture of the author ThomM
          Funny the people who want to keep guns don't try to force others to own them. But the ones who don't want to own guns are always trying to force gun owners to give them up.
          Kurt in your first link you failed to mention that the District of Columbia has the highest amount of violent crimes, triple that of Texas and yet it's illegal to own a gun there.
          But we wouldn't want the facts to get in the way of your opinion now would we.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kurt
            Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

            Funny the people who want to keep guns don't try to force others to own them. But the ones who don't want to own guns are always trying to force gun owners to give them up.
            Kurt in your first link you failed to mention that the District of Columbia has the highest amount of violent crimes, triple that of Texas and yet it's illegal to own a gun there.
            But we wouldn't want the facts to get in the way of your opinion now would we.
            Thom,

            I didn't fail to mention anything. Gary is the one that made the statement about Texas compared to MA. I merely compared the two states brought up by Gary V. Keeping up now?

            BTW, I didn't state an opinion. Just facts. Try not to make things up in the future.

            But if you want to change the subject, is the DC crime rate so high because guns are "illegal" there, or are guns "illegal" there because the crime rate is so high? Which came first?

            You may want to try to keep up. The DC hand gun ban was repealed in 2007. It's illegal to CARRY a handgun, not to own one. Again, I don't want facts to get in the way of opinions, so you can pretend the facts aren't what they are, if you feel it helps you state your "case".

            And in your feeble attempt to accuse me of cherry picking, while at the same time you cherry picked (ironic, huh?), why don't you go through the list of violent crimes stats for ALL the states and factor in the crime rate and the Brady campaign score to see if there really is a correlation to gun control and crime across the board?

            This wasn't my point, and I don't have an answer, but since you seem so interested and want the facts, do yourself a favor and see what the reality is.
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            • Profile picture of the author ThomM
              The reality is going by your two links the states with the most restrictive guns laws still have violent crimes and still rank as high or higher as states with less restrictive gun laws.
              Cal. has very restrictive gun laws yet they have 3.4 murders by guns per 100,000 people and Texas has 3.2 per 100,000.
              Restrictive gun laws only effect law abiding citizens, the criminals still ignore them. Making more restrictive laws does nothing to curb the gun violence caused by criminals.
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              • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                Wow guys! How did we go from "bombing" to gun laws?

                I know there was gun exchange as the second incident here, but I'm thinking more along the lines of gun ban or not, violence will continue via other methods...like homemade bombs.

                The root of the whole thing is crazies with evil hearts and hatred flowing through their veins and brains. They're going to concoct something to use as a weapon with deadly force no matter what laws there are and banning everything with tighter and stricter regulations isn't going to fix said crazies!

                Fix hatred and you fix the problem. But unfortunately, hatred can't be fixed. But hey stricter regulations at least gives the law makers something to do. Like posturing and making them feel they have gained another foothold towards being supreme rulers of the universe. :rolleyes:

                Terra
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                • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                  Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                  Wow guys! How did we go from "bombing" to gun laws?

                  I know there was gun exchange as the second incident here, but I'm thinking more along the lines of gun ban or not, violence will continue via other methods...like homemade bombs.

                  The root of the whole thing is crazies with evil hearts and hatred flowing through their veins and brains. They're going to concoct something to use as a weapon with deadly force no matter what laws there are and banning everything with tighter and stricter regulations isn't going to fix said crazies!

                  Fix hatred and you fix the problem. But unfortunately, hatred can't be fixed. But hey stricter regulations at least gives the law makers something to do. Like posturing and making them feel they have gained another foothold towards being supreme rulers of the universe. :rolleyes:

                  Terra
                  My bad. I shouldn't even turn my computer on when I haven't had my morning coffee and I'm pissed at the post office
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                • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
                  Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                  <snip>

                  Fix hatred and you fix the problem. But unfortunately, hatred can't be fixed. <snip>
                  I wonder if the older brother was the one afflicted with hate, then drew his younger brother into his warped plan. What I've read is that the older brother's death can be partly attributed to the younger brother running over him when he was escaping from the police -- was that accidental or deliberate?
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                  • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                    Funny you mentioned that TB.

                    That information about the younger brother running over his older brother while trying to escape has been niggling in the back of my mind since I heard it.

                    Terra
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                    • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
                      Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                      Funny you mentioned that TB.

                      That information about the younger brother running over his older brother while trying to escape has been niggling in the back of my mind since I heard it.

                      Terra
                      For bombing suspects, question may be who led whom

                      "...when the bullets began flying in Watertown on Thursday night and 26-year-old Tamerlan went down, his younger brother ran him over -- dragging him for about 30 feet -- before ditching the car and fleeing on foot."
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                      • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                        Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

                        For bombing suspects, question may be who led whom

                        "...when the bullets began flying in Watertown on Thursday night and 26-year-old Tamerlan went down, his younger brother ran him over -- dragging him for about 30 feet -- before ditching the car and fleeing on foot."
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                        • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
                          Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                          The uncle made a good point in saying that one aspect of fanticism is replacing reason with slogans in response to every legitimate question. I abhor slogan mills of every ideology. Identifying with any ideology is the beginning of stupidity.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                            Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

                            The uncle made a good point in saying that one aspect of fanticism is replacing reason with slogans in response to every legitimate question. I abhor slogan mills of every ideology. Identifying with any ideology is the beginning of stupidity.
                            That's actually pretty good. I think I'll remember that.
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        • Profile picture of the author garyv
          Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

          Tim...don't tell anyone, but Texas has a higher violent crime rate than MA, as well as a higher gun murder rate. We don't want the facts to get in the way of their opinions.
          Here... How about an updated link...

          Crime Rate by State, 2011 | Infoplease.com


          Violent crime rate and aggravated assault are actually lower. Murder rate is higher - but that's because people are using deadly force to defend themselves.


          But that wasn't even the point of my post - My point was that a terrorist would not have taken a town full of people with guns hostage for more than a few minutes... - Of course guns can't stop someone from using a bomb. But they can prevent you from running around town after you've just maimed and killed fellow citizens, just ask Nidal Malik Hasan.

          Your chances are much much lower of finding a gunless car to hi-jack in Texas than in Massachusetts. And just by simple logic - if you were trying to commit the most harm and get away, you wouldn't choose Texas


          In full disclosure - you wouldn't choose Boston now either. As far as man hunts go, it was obviously a good one. - But the men were never really found by law enforcement looking around - They were always found by civilians who then alerted law enforcement. And in Texas with every civilian encounter comes a much better chance that you'll also encounter a gun.


          I live right outside of Chicago Kurt - none of your rhetoric is going to convince me that more gun restrictions lead to lower violence.
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          • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
            I still don't see the logic of your original statement Gary. You said they wouldn't have been able to hold a whole city hostage and it would have been over days earlier. How is that? They set off a bomb and then went back home unnoticed for a couple days. Once their identity was discovered they left their home and everything was over within 24 hours. Carjackings do happen in Texas and a terrorist attack could also although I certainly hope it doesn't. This all could have happened in Texas just as easily. It seems kind of flippant, crass and cold hearted to say "it was all fun, but it wouldn't have happened in Texas". These are your fellow Americans you know, even if they are more liberal in some ways than you. It would be comparable to me saying about the Texas explosion at the fertilizer plant "Well, that was exciting, but it would have never happened in California". :/

            Originally Posted by garyv View Post

            My point was that a terrorist would not have taken a town full of people with guns hostage for more than a few minutes... - Of course guns can't stop someone from using a bomb.
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            • Profile picture of the author garyv
              Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

              I still don't see the logic of your original statement Gary. You said they wouldn't have been able to hold a whole city hostage and it would have been over days earlier. How is that? They set off a bomb and then went back home unnoticed for a couple days. Once their identity was discovered they left their home and everything was over within 24 hours. Carjackings do happen in Texas and a terrorist attack could also although I certainly hope it doesn't. This all could have happened in Texas just as easily. It seems kind of flippant, crass and cold hearted to say "it was all fun, but it wouldn't have happened in Texas". These are your fellow Americans you know, even if they are more liberal in some ways than you. It would be comparable to me saying about the Texas explosion at the fertilizer plant "Well, that was exciting, but it would have never happened in California". :/
              Tim - When I was referring to "it was fun TV" it had nothing to do with the actual bombing. Putting my statement back into context it was about the 24 hour lockdown and search of an entire city. Everyone was watching it, and many in the city itself partied when it was over. - And as I said in my previous post (but probably not read by you) - of course a bombing could have happened in Texas - There's no denying that. Terrorists have attacked people in Texas. However your assessment that a carjacking could have happened just as easily in Texas is very inaccurate. Yes it could have happened, but the chances of the owner having a gun increase significantly when in Texas - there's no way you can deny that. - Ask 100 criminals where they'd rather attempt a car-jacking and I'm willing to wager that 100 out of 100 would choose Boston over anywhere in Texas.

              This of course is my opinion as someone who has grown up in Texas and has since lived in many other cities. A gun in Texas is like an iPod anywhere else. You get one when you're a teenager, and no one thinks anything of it when they see you with it. It has changed a little bit in some of the cities since I've lived there - but stats say that the percentage of guns there is even higher there than when I was a kid.

              Again - I thought Boston was handled brilliantly (but possibly somewhat illegal) with what was available to them.
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              • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                OK Gary. Suppose you are in your car at a stop sign or perhaps just getting into your car in a parking lot. A guy pops out of nowhere wearing a suicide vest, sweating profusely and sticks a gun two inches from your face. Knowing that the city was recently attacked by terrorists who are on the run, what would be your next move assuming you do have a gun? I am thinking, you wouldn't reach for the gun. Remember, at this point the idea of others possibly having a gun isn't a deterrent since they are wearing suicide vests and are terrorists. Either is the death penalty.

                Originally Posted by garyv View Post

                Yes it could have happened, but the chances of the owner having a gun increase significantly when in Texas - there's no way you can deny that.
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                • Profile picture of the author garyv
                  Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                  OK Gary. Suppose you are in your car at a stop sign or perhaps just getting into your car in a parking lot. A guy pops out of nowhere wearing a suicide vest, sweating profusely and sticks a gun two inches from your face. Knowing that the city was recently attacked by terrorists who are on the run, what would be your next move assuming you do have a gun? I am thinking, you wouldn't reach for the gun. Remember, at this point the idea of others possibly having a gun isn't a deterrent since they are wearing suicide vests and are terrorists. Either is the death penalty.

                  That may happen - of course I'll give you that. It's less likely than if you have no gun at all, but it could happen. Odds of stopping the terrorist are greatly increased however "with" a gun in your possession. Also - the guy that was carjacked managed to get away - so he wasn't so afraid for his life that he didn't attempt a getaway. That same guy in Texas would have ended the whole ordeal right then.

                  If your goal is to do as much destruction as possible without resistance, then your target would be the "less resistant". Your odds of stopping a terrorist are greatly increased if you have a weapon - that's another statement that can't be denied.

                  If I'm a terrorist targeting a place, it'll be the place where I think I'll be met with less deadly resistance. And that place would not be Texas.
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                  • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                    That theory in this case and others just doesn't seem very plausible. These recent guys chose the Boston Marathon simply because it was a big, international event and was local. I really doubt civilians being armed ever entered their mind. Do you think Timothy McVeigh was scared away from Oklahoma being a pro gun state?

                    Originally Posted by garyv View Post

                    If your goal is to do as much destruction as possible without resistance, then your target would be the "less resistant"...

                    If I'm a terrorist targeting a place, it'll be the place where I think I'll be met with less deadly resistance. And that place would not be Texas.
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                    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                      Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                      That theory in this case and others just doesn't seem very plausible. These recent guys chose the Boston Marathon simply because it was a big, international event and was local. I really doubt civilians being armed ever entered their mind. Do you think Timothy McVeigh was scared away from Oklahoma being a pro gun state?
                      Well, guns are a simple weapon for cowards. They only more cowardly one is poison. If they use one that tends to be more direct, such a gun, or one that is open, guns will at least be equal to their threat. ****THAT**** is why police have them.

                      HEY, it is a given. A sword may trump nothing, a gun is generally equal to a gun, better than a sword or nothing, HECK, a suicide bomber in an open area may be afraid of a gun because the bomb can go off and kill only the bomber.

                      And the resident was lucky they saw the blood. Had they not, they may have been shot. THAT would be ironic!

                      steve
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                    • Profile picture of the author garyv
                      Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                      That theory in this case and others just doesn't seem very plausible. These recent guys chose the Boston Marathon simply because it was a big, international event and was local. I really doubt civilians being armed ever entered their mind. Do you think Timothy McVeigh was scared away from Oklahoma being a pro gun state?
                      Timothy McVeigh had a specific target, which was the regional offices of the ATF for their involvement in Waco. The Boston Bombers - as well as other radical Muslims - have a target of killing as many Americans as possible. They choose the most damage with the least resistance - that's not an opinion or a theory, but from their own words. And it's played out in their own actions.

                      And when you say local... local for who? Someone from Chechnya?
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                      • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                        McVeigh could have went to another regional office if he was worried about citizens being armed which he wasn't. The Tsarnaev family settled in Massachusetts and it wasn't because Boston citizens aren't as armed as Texans. Yes, Al Qaeda wants to go after "soft" targets, but that means targets that aren't protected by armed government security forces and it doesn't mean targets in a population where the citizens might be carrying handguns. I really think you are reaching here to support a different issue Gary.

                        Originally Posted by garyv View Post

                        Timothy McVeigh had a specific target, which was the regional offices of the ATF for their involvement in Waco. The Boston Bombers - as well as other radical Muslims - have a target of killing as many Americans as possible. They choose the most damage with the least resistance - that's not an opinion or a theory, but from their own words. And it's played out in their own actions.

                        And when you say local... local for who? Someone from Chechnya?
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                        • Profile picture of the author garyv
                          Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                          McVeigh could have went to another regional office if he was worried about citizens being armed which he wasn't. The Tsarnaev family settled in Massachusetts and it wasn't because Boston citizens aren't as armed as Texans. Yes, Al Qaeda wants to go after "soft" targets, but that means targets that aren't protected by armed government security forces and it doesn't mean targets in a population where the citizens might be carrying handguns. I really think you are reaching here to support a different issue Gary.

                          There's no reaching involved. The evidence speaks volumes on it's own. And you're foolish if you don't think they take into consideration civilian gun availability when they choose places to dwell and target. It's only common sense. - But that wasn't my original point. My point was, even if they did target Texas - you'd never see it get to a city wide lockdown. Civilians would have stopped him. That of course is my opinion - and will stay that way until proven otherwise.

                          - Also - Timothy McVeigh considered himself an American and not someone out to kill any civilians. He thought the American gun owner would be on his side (it was convoluted thinking, but that's what he thought). So there's really no comparing Timothy McVeigh to a radical Islamist as far as their mindset and targeting goes. It's not even apples and oranges - It's more like apples and toasters.
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                          • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                            That's some weird common sense, but if you find any Al Qaeda info saying stay away from populations where civilians carry more guns I will admit I am wrong. I don't think you will though because the idea is one you invented to support your pro gun views.

                            Originally Posted by garyv View Post

                            And you're foolish if you don't think they take into consideration civilian gun availability when they choose places to dwell and target. It's only common sense.
                            They both used bombs to kills Americans and both were not concerned about civilians carrying guns.

                            So there's really no comparing Timothy McVeigh to a radical Islamist as far as their mindset and targeting goes.
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                            • Profile picture of the author garyv
                              Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                              That's some weird common sense, but if you find any Al Qaeda info saying stay away from populations where civilians carry more guns I will admit I am wrong. I don't think you will though because the idea is one you invented to support your pro gun views.

                              Really? You think that it's not common sense to consider a population w/ fewer personal weapons a softer target? Ok - Whatever Tim. There's definitely more of a stretch in imagination to line up with your viewpoint.

                              ps - Some things you don't need an official manifesto for. And one of those would be "Stay away from people with weapons". That's just common sense.
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                            • Profile picture of the author garyv
                              Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post




                              They both used bombs to kills Americans and both were not concerned about civilians carrying guns.

                              And that is the only similarity. The Boston bombers were not concerned because of their location, and Timothy was not concerned for the reasons I stated above. - You're kind of helping to make my point.
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                              • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                                No, they were both not concerned because they were using bombs. They weren't riding in on a horse with their guns pulled out shooting people. This is where your "common sense" falls apart. Guns don't stop bombs. How many people who were killed in Oklahoma, or Boston, or on 9-11 were saved because they were carrying guns? None. Did any of the bombers ever worry beforehand about civilians carrying weapons? No, because THAT doesn't make sense.

                                Originally Posted by garyv View Post

                                And that is the only similarity. The Boston bombers were not concerned because of their location, and Timothy was not concerned for the reasons I stated above. - You're kind of helping to make my point.
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                                • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                                  Is this train wreck still going on?

                                  People died. Lives were ruined. Hundreds will never be close to the same again.

                                  And we're arguing this crap?

                                  This thread may be the biggest crime of all.
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                                • Profile picture of the author garyv
                                  Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                                  No, they were both not concerned because they were using bombs. They weren't riding in on a horse with their guns pulled out shooting people. This is where your "common sense" falls apart. Guns don't stop bombs. How many people who were killed in Oklahoma, or Boston, or on 9-11 were saved because they were carrying guns? None. Did any of the bombers ever worry beforehand about civilians carrying weapons? No, because THAT doesn't make sense.

                                  Again - I've already conceded that it wouldn't stop a bomb. - Reread the thread, maybe you'll find my point in there somewhere. I've stated it several times.

                                  ps - those on 9-11 didn't have to worry about civilians w/ guns. They were in a no gun zone. Again you're making my point. - Do you think they would have accomplished the damage had just 1 person on the plane been carrying a gun?
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                                  • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                                    Have a good day Gary. I'm off to do some work and then have lunch with my gf. I'm thinking sushi. Beautiful day here.
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            • Profile picture of the author seasoned
              Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

              I still don't see the logic of your original statement Gary. You said they wouldn't have been able to hold a whole city hostage and it would have been over days earlier. How is that? They set off a bomb and then went back home unnoticed for a couple days. Once their identity was discovered they left their home and everything was over within 24 hours. Carjackings do happen in Texas and a terrorist attack could also although I certainly hope it doesn't. This all could have happened in Texas just as easily. It seems kind of flippant, crass and cold hearted to say "it was all fun, but it wouldn't have happened in Texas". These are your fellow Americans you know, even if they are more liberal in some ways than you. It would be comparable to me saying about the Texas explosion at the fertilizer plant "Well, that was exciting, but it would have never happened in California". :/
              NOBODY, including you, seems to acknowledge what I have often alluded to. HINT The IRA, these guys, mcveign, "palestinians", and even the police at times do it. YOU mentioned it HERE! " They set off a bomb and then went back home unnoticed for a couple days."!

              And bombs can be made out of practically ANYTHING!

              Steve
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              • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                I give. What is it we aren't acknowledging? People set off bombs and walk away? Bombs can be made from many materials? Just for the record, I acknowledge both those statements.
                Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                NOBODY, including you, seems to acknowledge what I have often alluded to. HINT The IRA, these guys, mcveign, "palestinians", and even the police at times do it. YOU mentioned it HERE! " They set off a bomb and then went back home unnoticed for a couple days."!

                And bombs can be made out of practically ANYTHING!

                Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    I feel the same as Rob and Thom. Nobody is going to be hiding in my home, so nobody is going to waste my time and theirs searching it. Someone wants to worry about someone breaking into my house - they can just stand outside and wait til I throw the body out the front door.

    I have a problem with military on our streets. I have a problem with towns on lockdown. Are we at war?

    You and I have no way of knowing for sure which of the events going on are false flag - and don't say that I'm crazy to think that. We have plenty of people at the top willing to conduct false flag operations. Kennedy is the only Pres I know of that said flat out "NO" and actually let people know he had been approached (and he was killed).

    I'm more uncomfortable with the reactions to incidents that are taking place, all to frequently lately, than I am with the incidents themselves. They don't make me feel one damned bit safer. Not at all. Especially since you are around 8 times more likely to be killed by a cop than a terrorist.
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  • Profile picture of the author wlasikiewicz
    I recorded the last hour of the police radios and its nothing like is reported on the news.
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  • Profile picture of the author Patrician
    I don't get the exact correlation of the fact that Blackwater people were present at the Marathon -

    I get that they are doing a lousy job of security obviously (but I know it is like a needle in a haystack) - doing the best they can presumably.

    ... but what does not follow (to me) is why does their presence there indicate that the 'suspects' were 'framed' or that somehow we have a conspiracy behind the conspiracy (to bomb)?

    Are you saying Blackwater set off the bombs and then ala lee harvey oswald, those 'boys' (demons) are scapegoats?

    (I am more than open-minded when it comes to distrust of 'the man' - be it legislatively or media 'spin' -) I know we cannot be sure what we hear is true which ever side of the aisle we are on. Even what we (think) we 'see' is suspect in this day and age.

    So there is no reason to be snarky when someone happens to disagree with your point of view - 'they are right from their side, and you are right from yours'

    Somewhere in the middle might be something close to the truth.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Yeah, I saw a supposed retired lieutenant colonel talk about like 9 aspects of this and why it was done as a false flag. Some related and direct are:
    GOLD FIXING.... FACT and ADMITTED if you understand te lingo, etc....
    SETUP.... FACT! ADMITTED TO!
    TRIAL OF SETUP.... The guy claimed this was changed at the last minute. I doubt he would make that up, since it could be easily disproved!
    DRILL..... AGAIN, easily disproved if a lie.
    MONEY FIXING.... FACT and ADMITTED if you understand te lingo, etc....
    INFIGHTING .... GIVEN! Technically, they are OPENLY doing this EVEN after it FAILED!
    DISTRACTION.... Interestingly, ALWAYS seems to be the case!

    Why don't we go after the PROVEN FACTS that have been well established for THOUSANDS of years that would have prevented THIS, 9/11/2001 and so many other problems, and would make the US a safer and more peaceful place? Why can I not even speak in less vague terms about that in a forum(pun not intended) such as this? Why must we be forced to try to divine secondary and tertiary measures to try to prevent problems forced by ignoring the PRIMARY cause?

    Ignoring the primary cause means you must always deal with the consequences. HERE, it is DEATH, INJURY, MAIMING, and *******WORSE********! We haven't seen the worst part yet. SO FAR it has only affected a couple hundred. The worst part will affect a couple hundred MILLION!

    And that family guy episode? Seth MacFarlane is talking like he had NO part of this. He had a show broadcast ALL OVER, and made fun of this BEFORE the fact! He ALSO poked fun at muslim terrorists, doing the same thing. GIVE ME A BREAK! IGNORE IT! Say you were sorry or that it was done as a joke. Do NOT try to seem totally blameless. They even pulled the episode, and try to claim it didn't exist, or was pieced together! The false flag people are saying this was an INTENTIONAL WARNING/MESSAGE.

    BTW PETER won the boston marathon by driving his car through the race, admitting that he just ran over people in his way, and the film shows severed limbs. LATER, he calls up his muslim friend on a phone the muslim gave him, and a bomb blast with screams follows each attempt to call.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Well tim, It would help if the government didn't lie so much, etc...

    As for THIS example? The two pictures, as shown on the display in your message, are different profiles. The guy is similar, but *******MANY******* are so similar. Personally I would like to have a decent full view of like 2-3 parts, or a GREAT view of a major part, to identify these guys. ALL you can tell is these two guys are similar.

    Is the hairline right? CLOSE, but who knows? I suspect the guy on the right might have less recession.
    Is the NOSE the same? CLOSE, but who knows? I suspect the guy on the right has a broader and more downturned nose.
    BEARD? CLOSE. Who knows?
    EYES? WHO KNOWS?
    Ear? I THINK the top of the ear on the right turns outward more, but WHO KNOWS?
    I THINK the cheeks on the guy on the left are more prominent, but WHO KNOWS?

    I could see how someone says they MIGHT be the same guy.

    BTW, claiming this is ALSO a slight on the veteran!

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
      Are you saying you think these could be crisis actors Steve?

      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      Well tim, It would help if the government didn't lie so much, etc...

      As for THIS example? The two pictures, as shown on the display in your message, are different profiles. The guy is similar, but *******MANY******* are so similar. Personally I would like to have a decent full view of like 2-3 parts, or a GREAT view of a major part, to identify these guys. ALL you can tell is these two guys are similar.

      Is the hairline right? CLOSE, but who knows? I suspect the guy on the right might have less recession.
      Is the NOSE the same? CLOSE, but who knows? I suspect the guy on the right has a broader and more downturned nose.
      BEARD? CLOSE. Who knows?
      EYES? WHO KNOWS?
      Ear? I THINK the top of the ear on the right turns outward more, but WHO KNOWS?
      I THINK the cheeks on the guy on the left are more prominent, but WHO KNOWS?

      I could see how someone says they MIGHT be the same guy.

      BTW, claiming this is ALSO a slight on the veteran!

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Actually, *I* said I think they might be different. I wouldn't try to compare these two pictures.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    I suppose that a loose terrorist is justification for removing innocent people from their homes at gunpoint now? WAKE UP.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=2LrbsUVSVl8
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    • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
      Okay, that right there is some scary looking crap!

      Terra
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        7-8 adults and one dog were safely removed from the home - hands on heads to identify them as "safe persons". No shoving, pushing, dragging, hitting, guns were not pointed at those people - they were sent down the sidewalk a bit, the house was checked and cleared in five minutes and they could return home.

        What do you want the police to do in a case like this? That's what I don't understand.

        Do you expect them to search for a killer without carrying weapons? Do they only clear houses where they are invited in and hope the killer isn't in the house they don't enter?

        If they suspect a killer is hiding in a residential neighborhood - do the police do nothing? How long before people start screaming "they didn't protect us"?

        I agree this would be frightening - bit what alternative do you suggest?
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  • Profile picture of the author garyv
    Here's one of those "willing" participants of this search and seizure... You be the judge if this was carried out legally or not. I'm betting not. But the fact that they caught the guy will justify it...

    LiveLeak.com - Family ripped from their home at gunpoint; Police storm the property looking for terrorists
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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by garyv View Post

      Here's one of those "willing" participants of this search and seizure... You be the judge if this was carried out legally or not. I'm betting not. But the fact that they caught the guy will justify it...

      LiveLeak.com - Family ripped from their home at gunpoint; Police storm the property looking for terrorists
      There is no way to justify this. None. Not without declaring that the US has been taken over by hostile forces. We should ALL renounce our citizenship connections to Corporate US and quit funding it and demand having our Constitution reinstated.

      This is fascism. Pure and simple. It makes "freedom" a complete lie and just another meaningless slogan.
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  • Profile picture of the author garyv
    You too Tim - I wish it were good weather here, and I wish I was eating sushi. But have an awesome day and enjoy the weather.
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    • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
      Those are certainly legitimate concerns, having been to places under harsh martial rule, but the Boston police didn't bomb anybody and blast the limbs off innocent civilians, leaving many permanently disfigured, others suffering post traumatic disorder that isn't necessarily so visible.
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      • Profile picture of the author HeySal
        Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

        Those are certainly legitimate concerns, having been to places under harsh martial rule, but the Boston police didn't bomb anybody and blast the limbs off innocent civilians, leaving many permanently disfigured, others suffering post traumatic disorder that isn't necessarily so visible.
        Nope. They just pulled innocent people out of their homes at gunpoint without warrant or probable cause because someone else did - someone that the FBI already had the heads up on and had interrogated a few years ago. Someone that had already been filmed dropping off the briefcase - and someone they didn't even find without the citizen who called in on him.
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        • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
          I just love this video that shows an angry Boston resident verbally abusing one of Alex Jones "reporters". So good. Wish I could shake the guys hand:

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=-2xhg_vPP6s
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          • Profile picture of the author garyv
            Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

            I just love this video that shows an angry Boston resident verbally abusing one of Alex Jones "reporters". So good. Wish I could shake the guys hand:

            Guy Confronts Boston Conspiracy Theorists - YouTube

            Wow... did you hear the hate coming from that guy's mouth? It's amazing that people don't recognize hypocrisy when it spews from their own lips. The Alex Jones guy may be reporting crazy stuff - but at least he's not bullying anyone to get his report out there. you lose all credibility when you behave like a bullying goon. Just look at the responses - He's just turned a liberal youtube crowd into Alex Jones sympathizers.
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            • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
              Originally Posted by garyv View Post

              He's just turned a liberal youtube crowd into Alex Jones sympathizers.
              No. He didn't.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            LOL - you folks believe that? Dice is well known for crazy petitions.


            A couple years ago he had a petition stating "I am a moron" and some people actually signed it. If people are believing what they find on the NaturalNews site....what are they thinking?
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Gary - here's something you have to understand about California:

    Californians sign petition to inject children with mercury, implement Orwellian police state modeled after Nazi Germany

    This is one of the main reasons many people are high-tailing out of that state as fast as they can.
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    • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Gary - here's something you have to understand about California:

      Californians sign petition to inject children with mercury, implement Orwellian police state modeled after Nazi Germany

      This is one of the main reasons many people are high-tailing out of that state as fast as they can.
      Disturbing. What line did Mark Dice give people to get them to agree to sign a petition like that? I initially figured it was for vaccinations which do often contain thimerosal (mercury) that gets delivered straight to the blood stream in doses much higher than would be attained from even the most heavily mercury-laden food sources. Is there really such a difference in mentality between Californians and inhabitants of other states or is Mark Dice just masterful in conning people?

      one of my brothers is a big conspiracy theorist (vaguely famous/notorious) about the Illuminati, but I think it is a load of BS myself.

      EDIT: LOL, found this: http://markdice.com/index.php?option...d=129:benjamin
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    • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Gary - here's something you have to understand about California:

      Californians sign petition to inject children with mercury, implement Orwellian police state modeled after Nazi Germany

      This is one of the main reasons many people are high-tailing out of that state as fast as they can.
      Why is a lone whack job causing people to high tail it out of California?
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      • Profile picture of the author HeySal
        Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

        Why is a lone whack job causing people to high tail it out of California?
        Of course not - that was just demonstrating that people are actually stupid enough to sign petitions for things damned deadly dangerous to them.

        People are moving from CA because they are scared of living in areas where people are just too stupid to be safe to be around. If you lived where people will sign a petition when told openly that they want to shoot your kids up with as much mercury as possible, or sign when actually told that they want to reorganize the US after the Hitler regime -- you wouldn't be scared enough to leave?
        Finances used to be the number one reason people left that state - right now, it's because of other citizens and the politicians.

        I've asked many of them (a lot are showing up here now) why they left. The last few I've talked to have had answers such as "um.......you're kidding right". My sister is a teacher and she's thinking she might want to leave, too - but hates to leave her kids areas. She says that I would not believe how unbelievably stupid that the kids are now. The people I've talked to say it's too out of control to bother trying to fight it anymore so they just packed and left.

        The link was just a demonstration of what people that move are saying. Even Dice (who is kind of a maggot himself) can't believe how absurd it's gotten.

        This post will probably get deleted - but I'm sick of people who think its okay to orate about taking our rights guaranteed in the Bill of Rights rights away from everyone. Maybe I should start giving infractions when I'm offended, too. This is not a democracy - it's a republic and rights are NOT up for vote. That is what makes them RIGHTS.
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    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
      Whatever it takes to get people to leave.
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post


      This is one of the main reasons many people are high-tailing out of that state as fast as they can.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Dice is known for a lot of things -- but that doesn't make the general public any less drooling stupid.

    And some people are so slip programmed they will never get the drift that Alex Jones, throughout his career, has proved right more often than wrong. His worst fault is sensationalizing everything that comes over his desk. You want to crawl down someone's throat for sheer trash - go dis on WND.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Dice is known for a lot of things -- but that doesn't make the general public any less drooling stupid.

      And some people are so slip programmed they will never get the drift that Alex Jones, throughout his career, has proved right more often than wrong. His worst fault is sensationalizing everything that comes over his desk. You want to crawl down someone's throat for sheer trash - go dis on WND.
      If by "proved right" you mean proved wrong, I agree.

      There's lots of money in scaring people.

      #!
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        There are many ways to be narrow minded - one of them is to adopt any claim that fits your agenda of "out to get us" without looking to see if it's true.

        If you are using Alex Jones and NaturalNews as "sources for fact" and taking Dice seriously....calling other people "stupid" may not be the way to go.
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        • Profile picture of the author HeySal
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          There are many ways to be narrow minded - one of them is to adopt any claim that fits your agenda of "out to get us" without looking to see if it's true.

          If you are using Alex Jones and NaturalNews as "sources for fact" and taking Dice seriously....calling other people "stupid" may not be the way to go.
          Yet people quoting MSM know a rat about which sources are good ones? LMAO.

          I don't even know Dice - just saw what people were signing petitions for and it's just disquieting. They didn't post the Dice article in support of Dice. They posted it because the results were outrageous. Do you also find Leno disgusting when he interviews idiots on the street? As far as Alex - he shouldn't be taken as a final source - just hit some research on what he talks about - and he still has a pretty good score over his whole career, and THAT can't be denied even by people who think he's a total wreck. I hold my judgments on what he says til later because most of what he says takes a few years to show up as true or false beyond dispute.

          Natural News isn't that far off the target on their health news. Hate to say it but if you take the time to research their health articles, they stand up under a lot of scientific avenues.

          You seem to have a problem with any source that isn't MSM. Sorry - when corporations own the media and the WH actually edits and feeds it, I don't consider that a good source either. Even my favorite - Reuters, can no longer be called a good source of truthful news. Go back and study the German media from the 30's on thru the early 40's. You may get an education on what corporate media IS. Or you can just continue to dis anything anyone else but your favorite MSM source has to say. It seems the people with the least formal political, sociology, or economics educations are the ones that dis people the most over things like "sources", like they are the experts on everything. People who are in these fields check what's being said instead of who's saying it. Alex Jones seems to create a slip programmed effect no matter what he says about what. I know one of the leading civil rights lawyer in this country - and he never disses anyone just because of who they are. He judges each thing said separately - kinda like you do in a logic course to avoid falling victim to some of the more common fallacies. When a guy has gotten as much right over the decades as Jones has says something, that track record deserves at least a bit of deliberation before dissing it just because he's pathetically morbid personally and sensationalizes things to the hilt. Come on - the corruption is not a just dull roar any more. Even mainstream has to do clean up over real news actually leaking out now - which is what they are being PAID to do.

          This is why in the final run I get my news from reading Thomas Registry (bills and legislation), from C-span, and UN documents and actions. When it all comes down to brass tacks, there's nothing like the "horses mouth".
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      • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
        That is hilarious. Listening to all his predictions together like that just shows how ridiculous he is. Sounds like a spoof to tell you the truth.
        Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

        If by "proved right" you mean proved wrong, I agree.

        There's lots of money in scaring people.

        45 Failed Alex Jones Predictions - YouTube#!
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      • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
        Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

        If by "proved right" you mean proved wrong, I agree.

        There's lots of money in scaring people.
        Even the conspiracy-heads over at Above Top Secret have given up on Alex Jones.
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  • Profile picture of the author garyv
    There's no denying that the guy pushes conspiracies and fear for money. It happens on both sides. I'm sure he'd be happy to make the same amount of money Al Gore or Michael Moore make pushing fear. But to be fair - 45 failed predictions from over 5,000 broadcasts can hardly be considered mostly wrong. I listened to the video and over a dozen of those repeated the same prediction. That percentage of failed predictions makes him less wrong than most politicians during an election cycle.

    And to be honest, all news outlets seem to be converting to a fear for money modus operandi. Every news outlet out there has the feel of a British tabloid. Alex Jones just happens to be one of the sleazier ones.
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    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
      The same predictions really. Over and over and they never happen. 5000 broadcasts and the same predictions every show. How is that a good percentage? How can that NOT be considered mostly wrong? When has he been right about any prediction?
      Originally Posted by garyv View Post

      But to be fair - 45 failed predictions from over 5,000 broadcasts can hardly be considered mostly wrong. I listened to the video and over a dozen of those repeated the same prediction.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
      Originally Posted by garyv View Post

      There's no denying that the guy pushes conspiracies and fear for money. It happens on both sides. I'm sure he'd be happy to make the same amount of money Al Gore or Michael Moore make pushing fear. But to be fair - 45 failed predictions from over 5,000 broadcasts can hardly be considered mostly wrong. I listened to the video and over a dozen of those repeated the same prediction. That percentage of failed predictions makes him less wrong than most politicians during an election cycle.

      And to be honest, all news outlets seem to be converting to a fear for money modus operandi. Every news outlet out there has the feel of a British tabloid. Alex Jones just happens to be one of the sleazier ones.
      Simple. Just post the predictions of Alex Jones that came true and we can judge by the facts how accurate he is. Gore and Moore have NOTHING to do with it, but nice red herring.

      Plus, I don't recall many politiians falsely accusing others of mass murder. Can you refresh my memory?
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

        Plus, I don't recall many politiians falsely accusing others of mass murder. Can you refresh my memory?
        I could think of a couple such accusations that made the rounds around the planet BUT..... POLITICAL! Too bad though, they are doozies. I could EVEN tangentally allude to the statement made by one and maybe everyone here would know the whole story BUT...."

        And as for false accusations? They happen all the time. Generally NOT by people such as one I would mention BUT, like alex? YEP!

        Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author garyv
        Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

        Gore and Moore have NOTHING to do with it, but nice red herring.
        Are you kidding? They are a couple of the biggest fear mongers for profit on the planet. They are the Alex Jones's of the far left. And Gore has made a huge enterprise of it. I know you drink what they dish out... don't be embarrassed
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  • Profile picture of the author Doran Peck
    I think the guys that are pointing at the failed predictions, and basing the entire value of Alex Jones upon that...are sorely missing the big picture.

    By and Large, what his researchers do a good job of is simply pointing out things that are going on, that no one is paying attention too, or isn't being presented in the media.

    Such and such just passed a new law that says this...or..
    such and such had a meeting with so and so, isn't that a pretty big conflict of interest.

    and a lot of these things that are pointed out really make me go...Hmmm.

    A. Jones just tends to head right for the worst scenario of a piece of information...assumes the worst from the get go.

    You have to look past his...excitement...Like...One TSA Agent fondles a little girl...and from that point on he refers to all TSA as Pedophiles.

    I get it...he's a sensationalist...to his detriment...which clearly he doesn't get...but I can see past that and still look at the presented information and say...hmm you know...why are they doing that, it doesn't seem right....or why is so and so trying to have secret meetings with so and so.

    In that light, when I have gone to check out things deeper, I have found very few instances where I don't find corroborating material that shows what his researchers are talking about really did, or is happening.

    The fact is....Most Americans aren't paying attention to anything government officials are doing on a daily basis....and the government knows it.

    There ARE Whistleblowers out there speaking up about a conversation they had with somebody...or research they were involved in, or threats they received...

    ...But none of it is getting seen by the populace...and why? ...because the mainstream media is controlled by the same powers that control the government.

    ...and what I find really funny...is there are people who still think those powers don't really exist. They still think that the people running the Government are benevolent.

    Let me point out something very simple and powerful that may not have occurred to many of you.. If from the time you were say 8 years old...someone came and said.."Ok you have the power to make as much money as you want out of thin air forever and ever"...what is the inevitable result of that? ....that you would one day, eventually own every thing right? or maybe your children or their children. I mean it simply cannot be avoided. Can you imagine the immense power that would give you? both directly and indirectly...if some varying measure of your influence was in nearly everything that touched human lives on a daily basis?

    Now you say, well ok but that's like a fairy tale situation...well surprise, guess what... it really happened to somebody.

    Thus enters an organization called the Federal Reserve, which is privately owned and operated by a dozen or so families, and has been for 100 years. The members of those families have for 100 years had the ability to buy up everything within their reach.

    So my challenge to the conspiracy naysayers is....before you form an opinion based on sound bites...spend some serious reading time on his site...see some of the things being brought to our attention....do your due diligence. Then form an opinion about his effort.

    Spend some time watching the congressional sessions on CNN

    Spend some time researching the personal/business histories of some of the men and women that are in power.

    Spend some time learning about the history of the Federal Reserve.

    Spend some time learning about how certain things came to be created or made legal...for starters....Aspartame, the history of cancer research, and the AMA, Gulf of Tonkin, what the recent, and only Fed Audit revealed, history of presidential executive orders

    ...and UNTIL you've done at least all of that and More....it's, to be fair, not possible for you to have an opinion worth considering in conversations about conspiracy theories, but that's just how I see it :/ I might be the guy in the wrong, but knowing what I know about different things in different industries...I'm always drawn to the same conclusion...things are being manipulated...and not to the peoples benefit.


    ...for me...the thing that initially set me down the road to government distrust, is in my teens my parents were grossly sabotaged in a national TV interview. Manipulative editing. ...in later years I started getting into learning theories. I discovered that there are some amazing techniques for absorbing information so much faster than we normally do. Techniques for calculating even massive math problems in split seconds. All of what I was seeing was duplicatable by anyone, any age, and consistently....but then I ran into the residue of concerted efforts to keep these things out of our school curriculums. There is simply no other explanation other than...somebody somewhere doesn't want us to have these abilities....because what we are left with today has us running at MAYBE 1/10th of what's possible, and why would our government, choose that route instead of the obviously superior methods...I can only conclude that its on purpose.

    I'll leave you with this.....Power corrupts...but absolute power, corrupts absolutely.
    and unfortunately The thirst for power is never quenched.

    It is because of those inherent human truths, that any conspiracy is plausible.
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Doran tomorrow marks the 43 anniversary of the Kent State shootings. I was 17 at the time and it was all over the news, as where the majority of the large war protests. You also saw the destruction and carnage of the Viet Nam war on the news.
      There was national outrage.
      Today we have unmanned drones killing people and children whos only crimes are being in the same area as a "suspected" terrorist.
      Never mentioned on the news and no public outcry.
      I'm not a fan of Jones, but he does report on things that main stream news either doesn't have the balls (anymore) to report or their told not to report it, which brings it back to my first suggestion.
      Sadly most Americans now a days live in a bubble and anything they hear that may burst that bubble scares them and therefore can't be true.
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      • Profile picture of the author HeySal
        Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

        Doran tomorrow marks the 43 anniversary of the Kent State shootings. I was 17 at the time and it was all over the news, as where the majority of the large war protests. You also saw the destruction and carnage of the Viet Nam war on the news.
        There was national outrage.
        Today we have unmanned drones killing people and children whos only crimes are being in the same area as a "suspected" terrorist.
        Never mentioned on the news and no public outcry.
        I'm not a fan of Jones, but he does report on things that main stream news either doesn't have the balls (anymore) to report or their told not to report it, which brings it back to my first suggestion.
        Sadly most Americans now a days live in a bubble and anything they hear that may burst that bubble scares them and therefore can't be true.
        My biggest fear is not that we have power crazed sociopaths in office. The 20th century saw a multitude of these people kill tens of millions of people. But they were enabled by their own populations ---------
        My biggest fear comes from the fact that studies have proved that 2/3 of the people will point a gun at you and blow your head off or torture you to death just because someone told them to do so. That is really just dead frightening. A government, no matter how murderous, has no power when the population just says no.
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        • Profile picture of the author Doran Peck
          Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

          My biggest fear is not that we have power crazed sociopaths in office. The 20th century saw a multitude of these people kill tens of millions of people. But they were enabled by their own populations ---------
          My biggest fear comes from the fact that studies have proved that 2/3 of the people will point a gun at you and blow your head off or torture you to death just because someone told them to do so. That is really just dead frightening. A government, no matter how murderous, has no power when the population just says no.
          Conversely, a government has unbridled power when the population loses its ability to enforce that No.
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    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
      Okie dokie. In other words you are a big time conspiracy theorist. Your take on the fed is a good example.

      Originally Posted by Doran Peck View Post

      In that light, when I have gone to check out things deeper, I have found very few instances where I don't find corroborating material that shows what his researchers are talking about really did, or is happening.
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      • Profile picture of the author Doran Peck
        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

        Okie dokie. In other words you are a big time conspiracy theorist. Your take on the fed is a good example.
        So then what is your take on the Fed?
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        • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
          Originally Posted by Doran Peck View Post

          So then what is your take on the Fed?
          Reality based mostly.


          "Thus enters an organization called the Federal Reserve, which is privately owned and operated by a dozen or so families, and has been for 100 years. "

          Organization of the Federal Reserve System

          The Federal Reserve System is sometimes described as a quasi-government agency because it contains elements of both the private sector and of government control. The System has three organization levels: member banks, Federal Reserve Banks, and the Board of Governors. Let's examine each briefly.

          Member banks are at the bottom of the organization chart. These are commercial banks and S&Ls who have joined the Federal Reserve System (FRS). By law, all nationally chartered banks must join, and any state chartered bank has the option to join (12 USCA §282). By joining the FRS a member bank is becoming a shareholder -- an owner -- in its regional Federal Reserve Bank. For example, suppose you and I open a new nationally chartered bank in Charlotte, North Carolina. According to the district map, we see that Charlotte is in the Richmond Federal Reserve district, so our new bank will have to become a member of the Richmond Federal Reserve Bank. So, the claim that the "Fed is privately owned" is correct -- each Federal Reserve Bank is owned by private for-profit commercial banks and S&Ls.

          Why are member banks -- the owners -- at the bottom of the organization chart? They are at the bottom because unlike the shareholders of a typical corporation such as IBM, member banks have very little power over how their regional Federal Reserve Bank is run. And they have no control at all over monetary policy. Shareholders of IBM elect the company's board of directors who in turn choose the firm's CEO, so they have a collective say on the company's operations. Member banks also get to select 6 of the 9 directors of their regional Federal Reserve Bank, but these directors control only the Bank's daily operations, not monetary policy which is the most important function of the Federal Reserve System (12 USCA §301 and 12 USCA §302).

          At the middle level in the organization chart are the 12 regional Federal Reserve Banks. They have a variety of powers and duties, some of which are:

          Buy and sell government bonds in the secondary markets (open market operations)
          Lend reserves to member banks
          Offer check-clearing services to member and non-member banks
          Issue Federal Reserve Notes and collect worn-out ones for destruction
          Enforce reserve requirements and other regulations of the member banks
          Monitor banking and economic activity within their respective district
          In terms of monetary policy, the most important power is the first one -- open market operations. Buying government bonds in the secondary markets increases the amount of reserves in the banking system, puts downward pressure on interest rates, and tends to expand the money supply. Selling government bonds does the opposite. This is the monetary policy function that is most often associated with the Fed (What is monetary policy?). However, a Federal Reserve Bank can only employ open market operations with the explicit approval of the Board of Governors (12 USCA §355).
          Finally, at the top of the structure chart is the Board of Governors. The Board is a 7-member panel who is appointed by the President of the United States and confirmed by the Senate (12 USCA §241). The Board's current Chair is Alan Greenspan. Among its responsibilities:

          Determine open market policies
          Set the required reserve ratio for member banks
          Set the Discount Rate
          Deciding how much new currency to print
          Monitor the health of the U.S. economy
          Report to Congress periodically on the state of the U.S. economy
          It's single most important duty is deciding its open market policy, that is, whether it should order the Federal Reserve Banks to buy or sell government bonds, and if so, how much. This decision is made in conjunction with the Federal Open Market Committee. The FOMC is a 12-member panel can consists of all the Board members, the president of the New York Federal Reserve Bank, and 4 presidents from the other Federal Reserve Banks on a rotating basis. The presidents are appointed by each Bank's board of directors, pending approval from the Board of Governors (12 USCA §341).
          Thus, all the key monetary policy decisions -- the ones that affect interest rates -- are made by a government agency whose members are selected by the President of the United States. The Fed may be privately owned, but it is controlled by the government.

          The Fed and Taxpayers

          The second part of this myth is that the Fed is a drain on the Treasury, and therefore a drain on taxpayers. This is untrue. The Federal Reserve Banks are entirely self-financing institutions; they do not receive any tax dollars allocated to them from the federal budget. Let's take a look at the table below to see exactly where they get their money and how they spend it:

          1999 Combined Statements of Income of the Federal Reserve Banks (in millions)

          Interest income Interest on U.S. government securities $28,216 Interest on foreign securities 225 Interest on loans to depository institutions 11 Other income 688 ------- Total operating income 29,140

          Operating expenses Salaries and benefits 1,446 Occupancy expense 189 Assessments by Board of Governors 699 Equipment expense 242 Other 302 ------- Total operating expenses 2,878

          Net Income Prior to Distribution $26,262

          Distribution of Net Income Dividends paid to member banks 374 Transferred to surplus 479 Payments to U.S. Treasury 25,409 ------- Total distribution 26,262

          Source: 86th Annual Report of the Board of Governors, p.335.

          We can see from the top of the table that the Fed's primary source of income is interest from government bonds. This money is paid to the Fed by the U.S. Treasury. Is this not de facto evidence the Fed is leaching off the taxpayers? No, it is not. The Treasury is obligated to pay interest to whomever owns those bonds. If the Fed did not own them, then the interest would have been paid to someone else. In fact, from the Treasury's perspective, it is a good thing the Fed holds those bonds. At the bottom of the table, we see the Fed makes a substantial annual payment to the Treasury. The higher the Fed's net income is, the larger the payment to the Treasury. In other words, the Treasury gets back a significant amount of the interest paid to the Fed. Thus, government bonds held by the Fed are essentially interest-free loans to the government.

          Conclusion

          The regional Federal Reserve Banks are private owned, but they are controlled by the Board of Governors -- a federal agency whose members are appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate. The Board sets monetary policy and the Federal Reserve Banks execute it. In addition, the Fed does not use any taxpayer money to fund its operations. While the Fed does collect interest on government bonds, the Treasury would have had to make such payment even if they Fed did not hold any bonds. Moreover, the Fed rebates a significant share of its net income to the Treasury each year, revenues the government would not have at all if the Fed owned no government bonds.
          PublicEye.org - The Website of Political Research Associates
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          • Profile picture of the author ThomM
            Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

            So a progressive website is reality?
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              This explanation is simpler - from factcheck.org

              FactCheck.org : Federal Reserve Bank Ownership
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              • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                This explanation is simpler - from factcheck.org

                FactCheck.org : Federal Reserve Bank Ownership
                That is certainly more true, and might be fully correct, but the very fact that the banks have ANY control, and that there is **************ANY*************
                human exchange of ideas, speaks VOLUMES!

                FOR EXAMPLE, the fed chairman must tell congress WHAT he/she is going to do and why. WHY? I mean there is no real threat of disapproval. ALL it does is give MORE people INSIDE INFO! Did YOU know that they have SPECIFICALLY made THEIR inside trading "LEGAL"? Isn't that INTERESTING?

                Of course, the banks knowing this is bad enough.

                Since the currency is valued at the whim of the public, debt, taxes, laws, and makeup of the country, such control in a forthright manner is IMPOSSIBLE, and it gets MORE impossible as the number of people increases or their power increases.

                I leave you with a few quotes. There are similar ones credited to at least 3 people. ONE is still alive, and was credited with the near downfall of GREAT BRITAIN! I would say more, but it is .... POLITICAL!

                Anyway, back to those quotes:

                "If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered."
                "I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies..."
                "The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs."
                Thomas Jefferson 3rd president of the US March 4, 1801 - March 4, 1809

                Steve
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            • Profile picture of the author LarryC
              Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

              So a progressive website is reality?
              Most of what's on that site sounds like doublespeak to me, starting with the very label "progressive." Why are they trying so hard to defend the Federal Reserve? No matter who owns or controls it, it would be hard to argue that it's done an effective job when it comes to monetary policy (except for those at the very top of the financial hierarchy).

              First it tries to say that private ownership is a myth, then it goes on to say:

              The regional Federal Reserve Banks are private owned, but they are controlled by the Board of Governors -- a federal agency whose members are appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate.

              So it is privately owned, but controlled by a federal agency whose members are appointed (not elected). And who controls federal agencies? This is nothing but a vague reassurance from those in power that we have nothing to worry about.
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            • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
              Haha. I was going to put a disclaimer saying the same info can be found elsewhere if you don't like the source I used. For example: Kay's link basically says the same thing really.
              Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

              So a progressive website is reality?
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              • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                Haha. I was going to put a disclaimer saying the same info can be found elsewhere if you don't like the source I used. For example: Kay's link basically says the same thing really.
                All that really means is that's the "official" story on the Fed.
                Doesn't make it the truth.
                It doesn't mention that they own the money in this country or that every dollar you have is just a bank note, borrowed from the federal reserve.
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                • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
                  Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                  All that really means is that's the "official" story on the Fed.
                  Doesn't make it the truth.
                  It doesn't mention that they own the money in this country or that every dollar you have is just a bank note, borrowed from the federal reserve.
                  Clearly, something very shady has been going on for a very long time.
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                  • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                    Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

                    Clearly, something very shady has been going on for a very long time.
                    Nothing different then what has happened in most countries.
                    The currency is owned by a central bank with no real value, except what they decide to give it. They loan it to the govt. who in turn loans it to you. Then you pay interest (tax) to use the money that was loaned to you. The govt. agrees not to call in your loan as long as you continue to pay the interest. In turn the central bank agrees not to call in the govts. loan as long as they pay the interest.
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                • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                  Well, it means that the Fed isn't owned by 12 families. Official or unofficial story, that should be clear. Also, the fed doesn't own all the money in this country.
                  Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                  All that really means is that's the "official" story on the Fed.
                  Doesn't make it the truth.
                  It doesn't mention that they own the money in this country or that every dollar you have is just a bank note, borrowed from the federal reserve.
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                  • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                    Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                    Well, it means that the Fed isn't owned by 12 families. Official or unofficial story, that should be clear. Also, the fed doesn't own all the money in this country.
                    Then who does when every dollar says "Federal Reserve Note"?
                    As far as their value goes, what do you get if you try to turn that note into the federal reserve and demand payment? After all a bank note is suppose to be payable on demand.
                    By the way I never said the fed. was owned by 12 families, I've never made a comment on who owns it.
                    But before the fed. and before we went off the gold standard, we (as in the federal govt) owned our money and we had something of value to back it giving the money real value.
                    Now our money is only backed by the faith and credit of the federal govt. and only because they make the interest payments to the federal reserve on the money in circulation that was borrowed from the reserve.
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                    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                      Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                      By the way I never said the fed. was owned by 12 families, I've never made a comment on who owns it.
                      I was originally responding to Doran's claim that the fed was owned by 12 families.

                      Then who does when every dollar says "Federal Reserve Note"?
                      The Fed Reserve note is a liability of the Fed banks. They don't own everything.

                      As far as their value goes, what do you get if you try to turn that note into the federal reserve and demand payment?
                      The value comes from what you can get from others. Like I have said many times, if anyone here doesn't think their money has any value, please send it to me. I'll be glad to keep those worthless pieces of paper.
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                      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                        I was originally responding to Doran's claim that the fed was owned by 12 families.



                        The Fed Reserve note is a liability of the Fed banks. They don't own everything.



                        The value comes from what you can get from others. Like I have said many times, if anyone here doesn't think their money has any value, please send it to me. I'll be glad to keep those worthless pieces of paper.
                        Certainly they do, they own the note. They also control the value of that note. The more dollars they flood the market with, the less value those dollars have. When the federal govt. asks the reserve for more money, it's treated as a loan to the govt. on which interest has to be paid.
                        As for the value coming from what you can get from others, that applies to anything you can trade or barter. It doesn't in itself make money valuable but just another commodity.
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                      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                        I was originally responding to Doran's claim that the fed was owned by 12 families.



                        The Fed Reserve note is a liability of the Fed banks. They don't own everything.



                        The value comes from what you can get from others. Like I have said many times, if anyone here doesn't think their money has any value, please send it to me. I'll be glad to keep those worthless pieces of paper.
                        YOU AYI, have been the ones to declare that the government can merely print money, inflation is magic, etc.... Yet your LAST statement, though it is contradictory, DISPUTES that! "The Fed Reserve note is a liability of the Fed banks" So it has NO intrinsic value! "The value comes from what you can get from others" so any value depends on the service AND MANUFACTURING ability of the US. In OTHER words, printing money adds NO value! IT CAN'T! That means that the value comes from something else. NOTHING else exists, so it must come from OUTSTANDING money! THAT IS INFLATION!!!!!

                        So the dollar is a bet. A bet we are FORCED to make. If people get an option, the dollar may lose MORE value, etc...

                        Steve
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                  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                    Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                    Well, it means that the Fed isn't owned by 12 families. Official or unofficial story, that should be clear. Also, the fed doesn't own all the money in this country.
                    "THE FED" BY DEFINITION DOES own all the money! Prior to 1933 or so, you could have been right, but NOT NOW!

                    Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author Doran Peck
            Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

            Reality based mostly.


            "Thus enters an organization called the Federal Reserve, which is privately owned and operated by a dozen or so families, and has been for 100 years. "



            Quote:
            Organization of the Federal Reserve System

            The Federal Reserve System is sometimes described as a quasi-government agency because it contains elements of both the private sector and of government control. The System has three organization levels: member banks, Federal Reserve Banks, and the Board of Governors. Let's examine each briefly.

            Member banks are at the bottom of the organization chart. These are commercial banks and S&Ls who have joined the Federal Reserve System (FRS). By law, all nationally chartered banks must join, and any state chartered bank has the option to join (12 USCA §282). By joining the FRS a member bank is becoming a shareholder -- an owner -- in its regional Federal Reserve Bank. For example, suppose you and I open a new nationally chartered bank in Charlotte, North Carolina. According to the district map, we see that Charlotte is in the Richmond Federal Reserve district, so our new bank will have to become a member of the Richmond Federal Reserve Bank. So, the claim that the "Fed is privately owned" is correct -- each Federal Reserve Bank is owned by private for-profit commercial banks and S&Ls Why are member banks -- the owners -- at the bottom of the organization chart? They are at the bottom because unlike the shareholders of a typical corporation such as IBM, member banks have very little power over how their regional Federal Reserve Bank is run. And they have no control at all over monetary policy Shareholders of IBM elect the company's board of directors who in turn choose the firm's CEO, so they have a collective say on the company's operations. Member banks also get to select 6 of the 9 directors of their regional Federal Reserve Bank, but these directors control only the Bank's daily operations, not monetary policy which is the most important function of the Federal Reserve System (12 USCA §301 and 12 USCA §302).

            At the middle level in the organization chart are the 12 regional Federal Reserve Banks. They have a variety of powers and duties, some of which are:

            Buy and sell government bonds in the secondary markets (open market operations)
            Lend reserves to member banks
            Offer check-clearing services to member and non-member banks
            Issue Federal Reserve Notes and collect worn-out ones for destruction
            Enforce reserve requirements and other regulations of the member banks
            Monitor banking and economic activity within their respective district
            In terms of monetary policy, the most important power is the first one -- open market operations. Buying government bonds in the secondary markets increases the amount of reserves in the banking system, puts downward pressure on interest rates, and tends to expand the money supply. Selling government bonds does the opposite. This is the monetary policy function that is most often associated with the Fed (What is monetary policy?). However, a Federal Reserve Bank can only employ open market operations with the explicit approval of the Board of Governors (12 USCA §355).
            Finally, at the top of the structure chart is the Board of Governors. The Board is a 7-member panel who is appointed by the President of the United States and confirmed by the Senate (12 USCA §241). The Board's current Chair is Alan Greenspan. Among its responsibilities:

            Determine open market policies
            Set the required reserve ratio for member banks
            Set the Discount Rate
            Deciding how much new currency to print
            Monitor the health of the U.S. economy
            Report to Congress periodically on the state of the U.S. economy
            It's single most important duty is deciding its open market policy, that is, whether it should order the Federal Reserve Banks to buy or sell government bonds, and if so, how much. This decision is made in conjunction with the Federal Open Market Committee. The FOMC is a 12-member panel can consists of all the Board members, the president of the New York Federal Reserve Bank, and 4 presidents from the other Federal Reserve Banks on a rotating basis. The presidents are appointed by each Bank's board of directors, pending approval from the Board of Governors (12 USCA §341).
            Thus, all the key monetary policy decisions -- the ones that affect interest rates -- are made by a government agency whose members are selected by the President of the United States. The Fed may be privately owned, but it is controlled by the government.

            ...so lets take a look at what that relationship looks like...
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGs_Qn5yEgs

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vt27TnBK1o&NR=1&feature=endscreen

            In reality the Government has no idea what the Fed is doing.

            The Fed and Taxpayers

            The second part of this myth is that the Fed is a drain on the Treasury, and therefore a drain on taxpayers. This is untrue. The Federal Reserve Banks are entirely self-financing institutions; they do not receive any tax dollars allocated to them from the federal budget. Let's take a look at the table below to see exactly where they get their money and how they spend it:

            1999 Combined Statements of Income of the Federal Reserve Banks (in millions)

            Interest income Interest on U.S. government securities $28,216 Interest on foreign securities 225 Interest on loans to depository institutions 11 Other income 688 ------- Total operating income 29,140

            Operating expenses Salaries and benefits 1,446 Occupancy expense 189 Assessments by Board of Governors 699 Equipment expense 242 Other 302 ------- Total operating expenses 2,878

            Net Income Prior to Distribution $26,262

            Distribution of Net Income Dividends paid to member banks 374 Transferred to surplus 479 Payments to U.S. Treasury 25,409 ------- Total distribution 26,262

            Source: 86th Annual Report of the Board of Governors, p.335.

            We can see from the top of the table that the Fed's primary source of income is interest from government bonds(....which is a contradiction to the last sentence in this paragraph )
            This money is paid to the Fed by the U.S. Treasury. Is this not de facto evidence the Fed is leaching off the taxpayers? No, it is not. The Treasury is obligated to pay interest to whomever owns those bonds. If the Fed did not own them, then the interest would have been paid to someone else. In fact, from the Treasury's perspective, it is a good thing the Fed holds those bonds. At the bottom of the table, we see the Fed makes a substantial annual payment to the Treasury. The higher the Fed's net income is, the larger the payment to the Treasury. In other words, the Treasury gets back a significant amount of the interest paid to the Fed. Thus, government bonds held by the Fed are essentially interest-free loans to the government.

            ...And that's not what the Grace commission concluded in the Reagan era.
            The report said that one-third of all income taxes are consumed by waste and inefficiency in the federal government, and another one-third escapes collection owing to the underground economy. “With two thirds of everyone’s personal income taxes wasted or not collected, 100 percent of what is collected is absorbed solely by interest on the federal debt and by federal government contributions to transfer payments. In other words, all individual income tax revenues are gone before one nickel is spent on the services that taxpayers expect from their government

            Conclusion

            The regional Federal Reserve Banks are private owned, but they are controlled by the Board of Governors -- a federal agency whose members are appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate. The Board sets monetary policy and the Federal Reserve Banks execute it. In addition, the Fed does not use any taxpayer money to fund its operations. While the Fed does collect interest on government bonds, the Treasury would have had to make such payment even if they Fed did not hold any bonds. Moreover, the Fed rebates a significant share of its net income to the Treasury each year, revenues the government would not have at all if the Fed owned no government bonds.

            PublicEye.org - The Website of Political Research Associates

            My comments and links above, I submit, to give you some insight as to why I may draw the conclusions I do about the Fed, that's all. You may derive a different conclusion altogether. My intention isn't to be a Prove Your Right arm wrestle. I asked your view on the Fed out of curiosity.

            I may have been expecting a little more than just the typical answer....I've seen all that stuff before.....but I didn't just look at it an go..."oh ok"....then walk away. To me, the claims above start to fall apart when you look at the history of the Fed, or things that are happening in congress today. Its great that it all sounds right...but then you look at the details. I think you do the same thing...but we go at it from different mindsets...You trust the government, I do not.

            To me, there is a kind of flaw in a typical answer such as above, is that most of this echoes what comes directly from the Fed itself. The factcheck.org reference from Kay, also directly source from the Fed.

            In my mind that's kind of like, your sister is going on a date with someone she met on an internet dating site, so you want to know if the guy is a criminal, so you head straight for his bio section on the dating site.
            where surprisingly there is no mention of his fondness for robbing 7-11's and beating women.

            As far as my belief in the idea that the Fed is owned by a select group of people...it is derived from the foundation of the Federal Reserve, which was by a small group of prominent banking families.

            Most notably the book, The Creature from Jekyll Island expands on this.


            When the dust settles...I think one thing is clear about the Fed....there is a lot of secrecy...and in my book secrecy means there is shenanigans afoot.

            The Fed Audit - Newsroom: Bernie Sanders - U.S. Senator for Vermont
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              Arguing the history and ownership of the FedRes is fun - but I think there are serious implications of what the Fed is doing right now. The QE currently ongoing is propping up financial markets and making some sectors appear more stable than they are.

              I've thought for some we are creating a financial bubble with the federal printing billions a month to continue to buy up bad debt and bad mortgages. Seems to me this makes "the books" of big banks look better than they are in fact.

              I'm not a financial guru so thought perhaps I was crazy - but then saw this article yesterday. May I'm not crazy after all.

              The Fed faces a tricky exit from its third round of quantitative easing. - Slate Magazine
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            • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
              Doran, that congressional hearing with the Inspector General being questioned by Congressman Grayson was from May 2009. She couldn't say where the money went then and looked like a fool. Senator Bernie Sanders authored a bill to find out and the following year they had their answers. See link below. Sure, there wasn't and still isn't a lot of congressional oversight of the Fed. but that doesn't mean the Fed isn't ultimately controlled by the government. BTW, after the info came out Sanders said the Fed was right to make the loans, but thought they should have asked more in return from the banks, such as helping out consumers and small businesses.

              Federal Reserve made $9 trillion in emergency loans - Dec. 1, 2010

              How the fed is set up and who owns it can be found in places besides the fed web site. The Federal Reserve act and subsequent laws is a good start.

              I also don't see these two statements as being contradictive: "We can see from the top of the table that the Fed's primary source of income is interest from government bonds.... Thus, government bonds held by the Fed are essentially interest-free loans to the government." The first part refers to the Fed making money from the interest of selling US bonds. The second points out that the bonds can be looked at as interest free loans to the government since the Fed makes annual payments directly to the US Treasury. Two different issues there entirely.
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              • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                Thus, government bonds held by the Fed are essentially interest-free loans to the government." The first part refers to the Fed making money from the interest of selling US bonds. The second points out that the bonds can be looked at as interest free loans to the government since the Fed makes annual payments directly to the US Treasury. Two different issues there entirely.
                Actually, it is the SAME! ALL bonds work with a buyer effectively paying with the intent of getting interest. And it is a LOAN! So the fed issues bonds(tblls, bonds, savings BONDS, etc...), and pays the government. The government then pays the buyer an amount THROUGH the fed, who takes a cut. The government CAN NOT and DOES NOT get an interest free loan. It is actually AGAINST THE LAW, even being specified in the constitution. And that is why they say it is backed by the faith and credit in the government, and why the credit rating is so important.

                So HOW do they get "interest free loans"? EASY! A person called Carlo once did it HIMSELF! OH, he made out like a bandit. The idea is that you get ANOTHER loan to pay off the first, other money, and get interest. HECK, you can devalue money so the amount you legally have to pay is less. And many governments use it.

                And what of Carlo? Some may even have called him Carlo Giovanni! So what of HIM? Well, you know the US. His "anglicized" name was Charles PONZI!

                YEP, the gold old PONZI scheme! Jim straw had a nice term for it! "Trading the Burning Match", (AKA the bigger fool theory).

                Steve
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              • Profile picture of the author Doran Peck
                Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                Doran, that congressional hearing with the Inspector General being questioned by Congressman Grayson was from May 2009. She couldn't say where the money went then and looked like a fool. The larger point I'm making is that, while anyone can write a really good and beneficial sounding interpretation of the Federal Reserve where everything is rosy and nothing at all is going on that shouldn't be...the reality is, that it only looks good on paper...there has been and continues to be far too much NOT happening the way the paper says it does. Senator Bernie Sanders authored a bill to find out and the following year they had their answers. Well, that and there has only been talk about auditing the Fed now...for generations. Bernie's letter starts out identifying this Audit as the first ever. See link below. Sure, there wasn't and still isn't a lot of congressional oversight of the Fed. but that doesn't mean the Fed isn't ultimately controlled by the government. Well, ok if the paper says so. I'm not sure I really see any control in a situation where no one in the Government knows how much money is being created, or who is getting it. Getting to look(sight) over(over) it later as a matter of..."oversight" doesn't constitute controlling the actual application of it. BTW, after the info came out Sanders said the Fed was right to make the loans, He's entitled to his opinion. but thought they should have asked more in return from the banks, such as helping out consumers and small businesses That's not going to happen with future loans either...this is a Bankers club from top to bottom....remember too that only other bankers can be shareholders...and as the report notes a lot f loans went to their friends, including ones that hold positions inside the Fed.

                Federal Reserve made $9 trillion in emergency loans - Dec. 1, 2010

                How the fed is set up and who owns it can be found in places besides the fed web site. The Federal Reserve act and subsequent laws is a good start. Correct, and every bit of it looks gloriously perfect on paper.

                I still think a good read is the Creature from Jekyll Island for another historical perspective.


                I also don't see these two statements as being contradictive: "We can see from the top of the table that the Fed's primary source of income is interest from government bonds.... Thus, government bonds held by the Fed are essentially interest-free loans to the government." The first part refers to the Fed making money from the interest of selling US bonds. The second points out that the bonds can be looked at as interest free loans to the government since the Fed makes annual payments directly to the US Treasury. Two different issues there entirely.

                Ultimately Tim, there Is nothing you can say or point to change my thinking, and I'm sure the same goes for you. that's fine we can disagree.

                My effort is just to offer some of the "why" I see things the way I do, and I'll leave you with the single most profound thing that has effected my point of view. This thing is itself related to the Fed, and the laws passed during those times.

                It is a process called Accepted for Value. I have personally participated producing an A4V demand (along with my nephew), and have held in my hand the verification of that demand being completed, and the debt being..in one instance completely zero'd out, and in the other instance, being reduced by precisely the amount we A4V'd. It is a method for discharging debt. It works based on the premise that the USA went into bankruptcy, and the creditor is the central bank. ( I believe House Joint resolution 192 is part of this, among other things) So, the "Faith and credit" of the united states was monetized very literally in the form of mortgaging off its citizens. (Birth Certificate plays a part). Long story short....we must be compensated. So to me...because it worked, it proves that the underlying claims of why it works are in fact in place.
                ...which translates to how I now interpret things based on the premise that there are shenanigans going on in the relationship between our ( corrupt) government and the Fed, and we the people are being lied to.

                ...I don't know how much I made sense...I went back and tried to cut out a lot of ramblings...I know I can get longwinded

                DP
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                • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                  Originally Posted by Doran Peck View Post

                  ... there are shenanigans going on in the relationship between our ( corrupt) government and the Fed, and we the people are being lied to.
                  That's something I can agree with.

                  By the way, regarding The Creature From Jekyll Island. There was a good article which dealt with that book, among other issues, about 15 years ago. I think it's worth a read since you hold the book in high regard.

                  Another Twist on the Jacksonian Bank War: Part 1
                  Another Twist on the Jacksonian Bank War: Part 2
                  Another Twist on the Jacksonian Bank War: Part 3
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                  • Profile picture of the author Doran Peck
                    Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                    That's something I can agree with.

                    By the way, regarding The Creature From Jekyll Island. There was a good article which dealt with that book, among other issues, about 15 years ago. I think it's worth a read since you hold the book in high regard.

                    Another Twist on the Jacksonian Bank War: Part 1
                    Another Twist on the Jacksonian Bank War: Part 2
                    Another Twist on the Jacksonian Bank War: Part 3
                    Thanks for the links, I havn't seen those before, but I have read critical articles about that book...and there are some other books similar to it, also with someone writing an opposing review as per usual.

                    I acknowledge some of the things they point out, and other things seem more opposing opinion than fact.

                    What's not at issue is that it all started with a secret meeting...just one side feels it led to a system of perverted machinations that permanently rigged the game for the elite wealthy...the other side feels the path of benevolence and good intention was taken.

                    Problem is...I believe I caught a glimps behind the curtain, so to speak...and there was residue of a perverted system.

                    So, in my mind, authors such a Griffin were ultimately right in their conclusion, whether or not some of the details are arguable.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Tim,

    I would rather look at history, experience, and historical news, then listen to some PUFF PIECE!

    The FACT is that "the FED" is EVERY BIT a private agency! It is NOT government! It merely acts like it. Part of that is letting "representatives" have inside information. That IS about all it is.

    They have a tightrope, and strive to increase profit while not going so far as to cause a total collapse. I WATCHED when greenspan testified about raising rates in 1999 to stop the markets. He claimed it was TOO exuberant, and should come down.

    And statements like:

    We can see from the top of the table that the Fed's primary source of income is interest from government bonds. This money is paid to the Fed by the U.S. Treasury. Is this not de facto evidence the Fed is leaching off the taxpayers? No, it is not. The Treasury is obligated to pay interest to whomever owns those bonds. If the Fed did not own them, then the interest would have been paid to someone else
    OK, WHAT are they drinking? Do they think the interest comes from NOWHERE!?!?!?!?

    Bonds are issued to make money. *****NOBODY***** will buy the bonds, so they PAY interest! In other words, if they need $5000, they issue a $5000 bond. WHO would buy it!?!?!?!? NOBODY! So they say OK, for 30 years, I will pay you $16.66/month! Would you buy? OK, after 30 years, you get the $5000 back! Would you buy NOW? I guess NOT! OK, 100% TAX FREE! And THAT is how a 10% tax free bond works. A ZERO COUPON bond works the SAME way, but you get NOTHING until it matures, and then get all the interest. A US savings bond is a zero coupon bond. You get NOTHING, and in 10 years it is worth twice what you paid.

    If the government buys a government bond for their benefit, they should get NOTHING! If they DID get ANYTHING, it comes from the treasury, which means INFLATION!

    BTW on my last job I actually helped banks with bonds and even worked for a time in a bond cage.

    BTW MCDONALDS issues bonds, like MANY corporations do! They once had bonds in australia that paid like 14%! *****WHY*****? WHY ISSUE bonds to people, MAKING THEM CREDITORS, if you can simply BUY them and get money? ****WHY****? And WHY even bother PRINTING bonds? And they have to be REGISTERED! In the US, they must have a cusip number:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CUSIP And there are regulations! WHY do all that? Because it works as I said! They AREN'T magic! The SELLER PAYS money to get the buyer to buy. If the SELLER buys the bonds, it is a WASH!

    THAT makes it clear the FED and government are different.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    Bauman, lost both legs in the bombing but was instrumental in identifying the suspects, carried the Boston Strong flag out onto the ice at a recent Bruins playoff game to a roaring crowd.



    Daily Kos: Tea Party Legislator Suggests Man Who Lost Both Legs in Boston Bombings Wasn't Really Injured
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    "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      Bauman, lost both legs in the bombing but was instrumental in identifying the suspects, carried the Boston Strong flag out onto the ice at a recent Bruins playoff game to a roaring crowd.


      Daily Kos: Tea Party Legislator Suggests Man Who Lost Both Legs in Boston Bombings Wasn't Really Injured
      Well, that IS odd! GRANTED, I could stand pain people were astounded at. Once, I had about 24si of flesh burned severely on a forearm, and I didn't even notice it at first. It was from a freak accident with a soldering gun. The carpet was severely burned, the gun melted as was useless after that, and my forearm had a huge triangular welt for a while. So I certainly can't claim that his lack of apparent pain is proof that he wasn't injured. It IS odd though.

      And people HAVE done a GREAT job at hiding things, etc.... So WHO KNOWS?

      If I said these are HAPPILY used to spread an agenda that some have tried for thousands of years, and that it is a worldwide conspiracy, you might poke fun at me. Sorry, it is FACT! They have had international meetings about this and the US is supposedly one of the last major ones to start dropping.

      So with THAT conspiracy, that sounds ludicrous, who knows how far it goes. And REMEMBER OCCAM's RAZOR! MY conspiracy theory is easily proved with a simple look at the UN, NEWS, MEDIA, history, etc... To disprove it would be INCREDIBLY hard! ICSSMM!

      HECK, I heard one crazy theory a guy had. I got a kick out of it also. THEN I found he was right and many that spoke against him were in on it. Too bad that his worst fears seem to be happening.

      Steve
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