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Who goes broke first? Sears or Jc Penny?

by GforceSage
43 replies
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Both stores seem to have clueless dinosaurs for buyers who keep the stores looking like they are stuck in the 70's or 80's at times. The Jc Penney by me replaced some of the mens clothing for those over 30 with an "Olive Green" section for those who go clubbing and want to switch it up from black. They also added an Oakland Raiders section despite the fact that they finish in last place every year and play 7 hours from here.

I went to Sears to find a simple black belt and left the store empty handed. Every black belt had a large gaudy buckle on it. I even looked over where they used to have the Johnny Miller collection and Tuff-Skins, but no luck, only polyester crap.

My Penney's used to have a good discount furniture section, but of course they canned that.

I couldn't wait for the Sears catalog when I was growing up. I used to get to pick out a few things for Christmas every year. Imagine if Sears had someone more in touch with the times there, so they could have made their Famous catalog a player online before Amazon got so big.

Now Sears has the Discover Card doing questionable things to help keep the company afloat. A simple Google search shows that Discover Card has already been investigated by the Minnesota attorney general and has hundreds of complaints against them for questionable business practices. People with perfect payment records don't seem to like it much when Discover raises your rate to approx. 24% or more for no reason other than carrying a balance and won't discuss it with you while doubling your minimum payment.

Both of these companies are taking on water, Jc Penney is trying to revamp stores, but does not have the credit Hijacker that Sears has to help bail the rising tide. Put the wrong people in charge with no vision, no sense of current style or trends, while being oblivious to the competition as well as technological changes taking place and you are headed for a fall!

P.S. If the Discover Card has screwed you over, don't be afraid to let your states Attorney General know about it. Even if they claim to be able change terms, they may be in violation of offering "Proper Consideration," depending on your situation. For legal action to have already taken place against them, says a lot.
  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Did discover break off from sears? And which one DID go bankrupts first. I think jcpennies went bankrupt, and sears did.

    As for tha gaudy stuff? If you aren't talking about what I think you are, regarding the belt buckles, then I have NO idea. I go in to buy a DOCKERS belt, and so many buckles are GAUDY! Same with sneakers, etc... That isn't sears or jcpenny, it is "society"!

    The 70s had SOME problems, lie things left over from the sixties, but what was wrong with the 80s?

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author btchristopher
    It's amazing that they have lasted this long. They have both been on the verge of collapse for years. The other one is Radio Shack. I would vote for Sears, they just seem to be frozen in time. Penny's is trying at least.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by btchristopher View Post

      It's amazing that they have lasted this long. They have both been on the verge of collapse for years. The other one is Radio Shack. I would vote for Sears, they just seem to be frozen in time. Penny's is trying at least.
      Radio shack died LONG ago! I PINED after its death in the late 70s. I had gone to the store, and they started selling a cheap brand of "electronic components". That grew and grew as they got rid of their core business. TODAY, they are NOTHING like they were. SO, as far as I am concerned, they went bankrupt DECADES ago!

      Look at american can! OH, it is a HUGE company now! They sell insurance, mutual funds, have a bank, a huge stock market firm, etc.... Over $70 billion! Do I consider THEM basically bankrupt? YEP!

      OH, you haven't heard of american can? Well, they WERE on the dow and made cans. Can't find them now? NOPE! They were bought out as a shell company and used to sell insurance and mutual funds as primerica. THEY then bought travelers, citigroup, and smith barney, and renamed the whole thing citigroup. Eventually, they split from "citi" again.

      My point is that american can was used as a vehicle to get there, and could be considered a part of it, but they no longer do what they did. The DOW clearly realizes that because it USED to be 30 stocks in 30 industries. AC went from canning to financial services, and American express had/has the financial services spot. So AC got kicked off the dow.

      Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author celente
      Originally Posted by btchristopher View Post

      It's amazing that they have lasted this long. They have both been on the verge of collapse for years. The other one is Radio Shack. I would vote for Sears, they just seem to be frozen in time. Penny's is trying at least.
      They are both dooms, but I am holding shorts in JCPenny, looking at their sheets, they are doomed, and when you short a company and they go to ZERO meaning you profit, there are good tax reasons for doing this!!!

      Their longer term chart has a pattern that takes it to ZERO. Using technical analysis that is, if you think that works. :-)
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
    Sears needs to go back to the mail order houses they sold in the early 1900's, order a house from a catalog, get financed, have the house shipped to your building site, build the house (kit).

    There's plenty of those 100 year old Sears catalog houses still around today, the houses had quality materials. Google something like four square home & you'll see one home style Sears used to sell as a kit.
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    • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      Sears needs to go back to the mail order houses they sold in the early 1900's, order a house from a catalog, get financed, have the house shipped to your building site, build the house (kit).

      There's plenty of those 100 year old Sears catalog houses still around today, the houses had quality materials. Google something like four square home & you'll see one home style Sears used to sell as a kit.
      One of my grandfathers actually worked at Sears when it was a good company way back when. Those days are long gone, just like my grandfather.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sarevok
    Sears will fall first.

    What does sears even sell?

    Appliances? Electronics? Vidoe games? Washers? Jewelry?

    Amazon.com.

    JCpenney atleast sells clothing, which is something that a majority of people still prefer acquiring in person.

    Sears will fall first.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by Sarevok View Post

      Sears will fall first.

      What does sears even sell?

      Appliances? Electronics? Vidoe games? Washers? Jewelry?

      Amazon.com.

      JCpenney atleast sells clothing, which is something that a majority of people still prefer acquiring in person.

      Sears will fall first.
      I am looking HARD locally to get stuff I WILL NOT BUY over the internet. HECK, I MIGHT have gone to sears for one thing if it were closer to what I wanted and not priced so outlandishly.

      If a country can't support B&M stores for things like washers and radios, it has SERIOUS problems. BTW sears has ALWAYS been into clothing! ALWAYS! OK, OK, the VERY FIRST item they sold wasn't clothing, but the SECOND was! AND, GUESS WHAT! They STILL sell it TODAY! Go to the store sometime! 1/3 to 1/2 of it is CLOTHING(scarfs to shoes, work pants to party dresses and bathing suits, etc....)! The rest is tools, luggage, workout equipment, appliances, things like TVs, some furniture, bedding, automotive, etc....

      BTW most people buy tools and the like because they are needed. Buy them at sears and you may get them ********NOW********! I bought something through amazon and paid for express shipping. That was last TUESDAY! They said, AFTER THE SALE, that I should get it NEXT monday, and will have NO ability to track it. LUCKILY, I can "track" it, and they NOW say it will be here this coming FRIDAY! ALMOST A WEEK!!!!!!!!

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
    Anyone remember Montgomery Ward? I remember those stores were in just about every mall back in the mid 1980's. Looks like they have a website, I thought they went out of business years ago since I haven't seen an offline store in years.
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    • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      Anyone remember Montgomery Ward? I remember those stores were in just about every mall back in the mid 1980's. Looks like they have a website, I thought they went out of business years ago since I haven't seen an offline store in years.
      Wow! I thought so too. I grew up listening to my dad refer to them as Monkey Wards, haha!

      Thanks for the flashback.

      Terra
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

        Wow! I thought so too. I grew up listening to my dad refer to them as Monkey Wards, haha!

        Thanks for the flashback.

        Terra
        I used to LITERALLY live across the street from one! WIKIPEDIA explains(in vague PC terms) what happened to the one across the street. Basically, it USED to be a middle middle class neighborhood, and the poor basically encroach, and the whole city PLUMMETS! The middle class moves out. I did that not long after GM, woolworth wilco, and that MW went out of business.

        Anyway, some jerk apparently in the 1950s tried to take over everything and dragged it through the courts. MW couldn't out maneuver their rivals that PREPARED for what I just described. They then made some VERY poor choices. Ironically, the guy that made the changes I didn't like at RADIOSHACK was then at the helm!

        Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
          Amazing Steve!

          Thank you for the history lesson. Seriously, I, like Yukon, would have thought that the place he linked to was the MW my dad referred to.

          I call sneaky fish poop! Oh, haha! That is the "code" my kids used trying to get away with saying B*stard.

          Terra
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      Anyone remember Montgomery Ward? I remember those stores were in just about every mall back in the mid 1980's. Looks like they have a website, I thought they went out of business years ago since I haven't seen an offline store in years.
      COMMON PLOY! From wikipedia:

      Montgomery Ward is the name of two historically distinct American retail enterprises. It can refer either to the defunct mail order and department store retailer which operated between 1872 and 2000, or to the original name of the online retailer Wards.
      Basically, a direct mail firm wanted the name and history, so they bought it, but it IS a different enterprise!

      Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      Anyone remember Montgomery Ward? I remember those stores were in just about every mall back in the mid 1980's. Looks like they have a website, I thought they went out of business years ago since I haven't seen an offline store in years.
      Wards did go out of business (I was upset because I prepaid for oil changes I would never get )....somebody bought rights to the name, and re launched it as a website.

      Ironically, Circuit City was relaunched as a website, and CompUSA is only a website now as well. Both of those are owned by Tiger Direct.

      As far as who survives? My money is on JC Penney...Sears is owned by a person who has no business running a retail operation, at least JC Penney's has professional management in place, and is starting to move back in the right direction.
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      • Profile picture of the author serryjw
        BOTH used to be my customers. They BOTH have a lot of problems but JCP will go out first. Sears still has tools and appliances. I always believed that SEARS should have become a home store and gotten out of the apparel.
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by serryjw View Post

          BOTH used to be my customers. They BOTH have a lot of problems but JCP will go out first. Sears still has tools and appliances. I always believed that SEARS should have become a home store and gotten out of the apparel.
          I haven't been to JCP lately, but sears made a lot of acquisitions that were really not good matches. It IS a pity. I think it started nice and just kept getting better and better until maybe 1980. As for discover raising their rate and doubling the payment, that is common and due to US laws passed several years ago. They took a COUPLE good ideas, like forbidding universal default and making the interest layout more standard and threw in several bad ideas and greatly increased the risk and decreased flexibility of creditors. They responded by tightening up credit and increasing rates.

          Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
          Originally Posted by serryjw View Post

          BOTH used to be my customers. They BOTH have a lot of problems but JCP will go out first. Sears still has tools and appliances. I always believed that SEARS should have become a home store and gotten out of the apparel.
          JC Penny's has a 'secret weapon' Sears does not...a salon chain that if they play their cards right could play a huge part in their comeback.

          The salons draw young customers into the stores like a flame draws moths...now just go get their feedback on the rest of your store, and you have a blueprint for your remake into something trendy and hip for the younger crowd.

          Sears on the other hand is run by Eddie Lampert...a guy who should not be allowed to be a cashier in a retail store, let alone running the number two retail chain in America.

          Mark my words....Lampert will run Sears into the ground...and JC Penny will be the comeback story you read about.
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          • Profile picture of the author serryjw
            The Salon has gone through so many changes in the recent years. Even IF they are currently doing OK, IMO, wouldn't dent the bottom line. JCP is having a big identity crisis. I doubt that they will figure it out ...in time.
            Only time will tell who's correct...My vote is JCP will go out first.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sarevok
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  • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
    I still feel a surge of anger when I recall the horrible customer service I got from Sears which not only included runarounds and having to call them several times and be transferred to different departments but outright lies. That is when I knew that Sears would implode and crash in some form or other, and it did not long afterwards.
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    • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
      Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

      I still feel a surge of anger when I recall the horrible customer service I got from Sears which not only included runarounds and having to call them several times and be transferred to different departments but outright lies. That is when I knew that Sears would implode and crash in some form or other, and it did not long afterwards.
      You forgot to say, "Sears sucks."

      Terra
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

      I still feel a surge of anger when I recall the horrible customer service I got from Sears which not only included runarounds and having to call them several times and be transferred to different departments but outright lies. That is when I knew that Sears would implode and crash in some form or other, and it did not long afterwards.
      Yeah, I used to always lift up an item and yell "IS IT FREE TODAY!?!?!?!?" when looking for the non existent clerks. Of course, I never stole, though I sometimes dropped the stuff elsewhere and left in disgust.

      I knew people that just walked out with stuff without paying. Seriously, they probably lost thousands of dollars a day because of that stuff.

      Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author AprilCT
        It's seriously sad. One by one, lots of really great stores with great quality merchandise bit the dust over the years around where I live. It has become difficult to find quality anything not made by some poor, overworked 12-year old offshore somewhere in some country named that is not recognizable. Very frustrating when you need to go shopping for clothing or appliances or whatever, and anything that is a little better made has a huge price tag on it.

        I used to make the bulk of my own clothing when I was a lot younger (and it's still hard to find good petite-sized clothing,) and am not very impressed with either the fabrics or quality of items for sale now.

        As for whether Sears or JC Penney will bite the dust first, I can't even guess. We don't buy much from either of them or stop there very often. I do have to say that any time we have stopped at either place, the sales clerks have been above and beyond super helpful, but even so, the kind of merchandise for sale just isn't kicking it.
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by AprilCT View Post

          As for whether Sears or JC Penney will bite the dust first, I can't even guess. We don't buy much from either of them or stop there very often. I do have to say that any time we have stopped at either place, the sales clerks have been above and beyond super helpful, but even so, the kind of merchandise for sale just isn't kicking it.
          OK, what area do YOU go to? I have only gne to a few dozen unique areas. Places like NY, MA, NJ, CA, etc....

          GRANTED that doesn't mean I hae been eerywhere. I have been to places so nce that they might as well have been on another PLANET. Still, to hear people say "any time we have stopped at either place, the sales clerks have been above and beyond super helpful"!!!!!

          To others....

          As for the B&M being dinosaurs? MAN what a dumb thing to say. ever wonder why they are called STORES? *I* think it is because they STORE things for people to buy, so they can buy them THERE!

          JCPENNIES, SEARS, and other places STARTED as mailorder. at least that was their main business. SEARS was once built **************AROUND************* train tracks! I mean the train ran THROUGH IT! LITERALLY! WHY? Sothey could QUICKLY unload the train and get all the goods to be shipped. Many companies today have trucks deliver the whole trailer. WHY? To CUT COSTS!

          If we get rid of such stores, it would be IRONIC! We would be going BACK to where we were! Only instead of waiting weeks to get something, we may end up waiting MONTHS. AND many people buying online saw it someplace PHYSICAL. Forget THAT luxury.

          ALSO, that means that AMAZON then becomes a dinosaur! I mean with NO physical location and NO real added benefit, why don't we just get it from the manufacturer? AND, if we did THAT, a larger chunk of the sale would move abroad! See how ths can snowball?

          Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author AprilCT
            Steve, I live in Pennsylvania and we shop locally for the most part,although I really love Amazon and their service. I probably should have qualified the super helpful people with "when you can find one" - most of the stores around stretch their help pretty damn thin, but when you do get help, it's been very good. Either they are good or I must be intimidating or something? And, I have to limit that comment to our infrequent forays into Sears or Penney's. Maybe we've just been lucky to be there at the right time.
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            • Profile picture of the author seasoned
              Originally Posted by AprilCT View Post

              I probably should have qualified the super helpful people with "when you can find one" - most of the stores around stretch their help pretty damn thin, but when you do get help, it's been very good. Either they are good or I must be intimidating or something?
              Well, the last person at sears that helped me, a couple weeks ago(I walked the equivalent of 2 blocks to find her), WAS helpful! Was DESPERATE and saw indications that sears MIGHT have pants that would fit me, so I asked her a quest I have asked there for over 2 YEARS and asked maybe a dozen people. THEY said FORGET IT! SHE said..... They should be right THERE! They WERE!

              You see, I now wear pants that are an odd size. Bigger than sears wants to claim they sell, but smaller than the big and tall. AND most don't take into account that your legs get wider as all else does. So LEVIS, for example, in MY size, only sells ONE type that fits. Sears apparently doesn't want to carry that type.

              And, I have to limit that comment to our infrequent forays into Sears or Penney's. Maybe we've just been lucky to be there at the right time.
              Yeah

              Steve
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              • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
                I hope Sears (aka Kmart and then the holding company changed its name to Sears after Kmart bought it) goes down first. Terrible company that deserves to go under.

                Last time I dealt with Sears we ended up being without a refrigerator for a month. Then I was talking to their legal office. Then, big surprise, we bought elsewhere. Then ... it was call after call after call from Sears "customer support" wanting to know how great our purchase was. They got an earful.

                Never had a problem with JC Penny.
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    Seasoned,

    Thanks for the history lessons.

    This new wards.com even uses the same color schemes.

    I shopped at Monkey Wards a lot in the 80's and 90's.

    Back then, the K-Mart stores I shopped were yucky and every time I bought something on sale, they had to go look up the price because their systems stunk.

    Both Sears and Penney's will fall about the same time.

    Dan
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  • Profile picture of the author Christophe Young
    I actually sometimes buy electronics at Sears because I don't have to worry about crowds and they usually have great deals. Bought my 46" Samsung LED TV at Sears on Black Friday a few years ago mid morning and the place was empty and still plenty of TV's available. As opposed to Best Buy which looked like a war zone at 7AM that morning.

    That was the first and last time I went Black Friday shopping as I was in need of that bid ticket item.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
    JC Penney is circling the drain. All you have to do is look at their annual statement.

    Sears/K-Mart has some of the best real estate holdings nationwide. They can stay afloat for years just by selling off their holdings.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

      JC Penney is circling the drain. All you have to do is look at their annual statement.

      Sears/K-Mart has some of the best real estate holdings nationwide. They can stay afloat for years just by selling off their holdings.
      A piece here and a piece there GREATLY devalues it. If it is near another piece of property, the total margin could even drop BELOW zero!

      Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
        Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

        A piece here and a piece there GREATLY devalues it. If it is near another piece of property, the total margin could even drop BELOW zero!

        Steve
        I have no idea what you're trying to say. All property is near another piece of property. K-Mart/Sears locations are almost always prime real estate locations- high traffic areas, close to interstates, etc.

        Here's a link to a story about how they plan to use said real estate:

        With Ubiquity, Sears is Turning Shuttered Stores into Data Centers » Data Center Knowledge

        JCPenney doesn't have anywhere near the flexibility because over 70% of their locations are leased.

        From a pure "who goes broke first" standpoint, JCPenney will be the first to take a dirt nap.
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

          I have no idea what you're trying to say. All property is near another piece of property. K-Mart/Sears locations are almost always prime real estate locations- high traffic areas, close to interstates, etc.

          Here's a link to a story about how they plan to use said real estate:

          With Ubiquity, Sears is Turning Shuttered Stores into Data Centers » Data Center Knowledge

          JCPenney doesn't have anywhere near the flexibility because over 70% of their locations are leased.

          From a pure "who goes broke first" standpoint, JCPenney will be the first to take a dirt nap.
          Businesses may get a premium for property sold in chunks because they did the research and bought in good locations and have a history there. As the size gets smaller, the premium drops. ALSO, if a company gets a large region, they may even keep the signage and fixtures, like Jons and Barrels. If it is only one place, it is a LOT more work.

          Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
            Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

            Businesses may get a premium for property sold in chunks because they did the research and bought in good locations and have a history there. As the size gets smaller, the premium drops. ALSO, if a company gets a large region, they may even keep the signage and fixtures, like Jons and Barrels. If it is only one place, it is a LOT more work.

            Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

    Sears is segmenting into tool/hardware/home improvement. I think they will thrive that way.
    HOW do you figure? If they create just a toolstore, with what they have, they could get slaughtered! They have too much good and established competition.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
    Funny to see this thread revived. An employee of Futureshop (Canada-based) told me that she thinks it too will eventually become exclusively online, as will Best Buy (both shops are under same ownership. It's all kind of bizarre). How many online electronics stores can the market sustain is the new question.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

      Funny to see this thread revived. An employee of Futureshop (Canada-based) told me that she thinks it too will eventually become exclusively online, as will Best Buy (both shops are under same ownership. It's all kind of bizarre). How many online electronics stores can the market sustain is the new question.
      The question is STILL USP USP USP!

      I won't say the name because they were a client of mine, but let's say they are big, everyone here likely knows about them, they are on national TV, etc.... THEY control only about 15% of their product line. The rest is basically ordered as sent. There is a term for it that I forget at the moment.

      What this means is that it is far easier for a company like XYZ to step in and do the SAME thing with the other 85%.

      That makes a USP harder.

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author The Content Professional
    My vote is for Sears, if only because it's owned by Kmart.

    What a disgusting cesspool of a store that is. It makes Walmart and Target look like high-end luxury goods. As if being dirty and disorganized weren't enough, their prices are significantly higher than any other stores in the area. Literally 25%+ more than Walmart on many items.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Sears, especially, missed so many opportunities to capitalize on what it was best known for - tools/appliances/lawn care equipment/batteries.

      Sears still has some popular and well known brand names - but doesn't seem to know what to do with them.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    Another zombie thread revived from the dead thread graveyard. :rolleyes:

    At any rate, the three main stores being talked about here, Penneys, Sears, and Radio Shack, have all be hiring around here in the last couple of weeks. To paraphrase Mark Twain, "Rumors of their demise may be greatly exaggerated."
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      It's Floyd's fault - and clearly we're all bored tonight.
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      • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        It's Floyd's fault - and clearly we're all bored tonight.
        I know, but he's been a member here a lot longer than I have so I wasn't going to name names.
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