Will China Protect Edward Snowden?

11 years ago

We don't know if he's still in Hong Kong - but I don't think he will be protected there. He needs to get to South America or Iceland or some country without an extradition treaty.

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TLTheLiberator

11 years ago

Time will tell.

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socialentry

Banned 11 years ago

What would be their incentive to do so?

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derekwong28 11 years ago

Originally Posted by socialentry

What would be their incentive to do so?

Their incentive would be mainly technical in nature. They would be interested in the technology used so that they can become more proficient in spying on their own citizens.

On the other China owes the US a favor in not letting the Bo Xilai scandal get much worse than it could have done.
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- David Maschke 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by derekwong28
  
  On the other China owes the US a favor in not letting the Bo Xilai scandal get much worse than it could have done.
  
  I couldn't resist. I just had to look that one up...
  
  In response, the authorities instructed newspapers and websites to strictly report only official releases, and arrested six people accused of 'rumourmongering'.
  I can't wait for that to hit over here
  
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David Maschke

11 years ago

If Hong Kong gets him, they're going to keep him and use him as a bargaining chip for something, and sell him to the highest bidder, either to mainland China or the U.S.

If it's true the guy worked for the CIA and the NSA, China will want to get their hands on him and extract all useful information out of him. The U.S will not want that to happen, they'll want him back to protect sensitive technical information, and publically lynch him to make an example out of him, to keep others from turning into whistleblowers.

It'll be a race against time, and governments, who can get their hands on him first.

Regina Ip is right, it really is in his best interest to get the heck out of Hong Kong if he is still there.

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David Maschke

11 years ago

I don't know what the politics are like between China and Hong Kong are, but if Hong Kong does have autonomy, we can import game theory into this...

The last thing Hong Kong will do is contact the U.S. immediately. China will not want to lose their chance to get their hands on him. Hong Kong knows this. China knows Hong Kong knows this. Hong Kong knows that China knows that Hong Kong knows (and so on...)

Anyway, China will be willing to pay a lot for the guy.

If the U.S. ever learns that Hong Kong has Snowden, Snowden's value really drops.

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yukon

Banned 11 years ago

Regardless of where he's at, I'm sure he's going back to the US.

If the US lets this slide, it tells every single contractor they can do whatever they want without any consequences.

He'll be back.

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HeySal

11 years ago

I think he should join Julian A. in S. America. Just the fact he's in Hong Kong says something very weird is going down politically or he'd not feel any safer there than here. However - I doubt that he'll have to worry about any of our Admin's killer drones hunting him down over either China or Hong Kong. If he finds Amnesty, you can bet sooner or later others will feel safe to come forward, too - - there's still a lot going on to be told yet and this might be the breaking straw. I hope he's given others the courage to tell the rest of the story.

This will be interesting to watch unfold. The fact that the surveillance doesn't only involve the US could reap some serious repercussions for our admin - including international prosecution.

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Alexa Smith Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

I think he should join Julian A. in S. America

Well ... if Julian A. ever gets out of the embassy in London, where he's still holed up. But meanwhile: Julian Assange praises Edward Snowden as a hero | Media | guardian.co.uk
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HeySal

11 years ago

Word is that Snowdon has left his hotel in Hong Kong and his whereabouts is unknown. God I hope he gets somewhere safe. This man is a hero.

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Evita

11 years ago

Snowden is an intelligent man. Undoubtedly he thought about this for some time before exposing this illegal activity by our government and must surely have a plan. Maybe a plan that he has worked on for years.

Would not surprise me if he already have some other identity set up somewhere and will just simply disappear.

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Thomas

11 years ago

Originally Posted by socialentry

What would be their incentive to do so?

Originally Posted by David Maschke

I don't know what the politics are like between China and Hong Kong are, but if Hong Kong does have autonomy, we can import game theory into this...

Anyway, China will be willing to pay a lot for the guy.

They don't need an incentive. Hong Kong is part of China... a very autonomous part, but still part of it. However, it doesn't have much, or even any, autonomy in matters of national defence and foreign affairs. If they (the Chinese) considered the presence of Edward Snowden in Hong Kong to be an issue of national security, there isn't really much anyone in Hong Kong could do about it.

Originally Posted by HeySal

... killer drones hunting him down over ... Hong Kong ...

I doubt Edward Snowden is considered important enough to risk starting WW3 over.

Originally Posted by HeySal

This will be interesting to watch unfold. The fact that the surveillance doesn't only involve the US could reap some serious repercussions for our admin - including international prosecution.

Since espionage directed against European citizens by a foreign power is just as "frowned upon" in the European Union as it is in the United States, I suspect the people at Google, Facebook, and whomever else may be involved, are going to have some very hard questions to answer in the near future in order to continue to benefit from free access to the $17 trillion EU economy.

Lawmakers in Brussels have been screaming for retaliatory action, such as the termination of data-sharing deals with the US, for several days now. They also have the option to target the companies involved, since assisting foreign spies is just as much a crime in all EU member states as it is in the US.

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socialentry Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas

. If they (the Chinese) considered the presence of Edward Snowden in Hong Kong to be an issue of national security.

That's an incentive brah.
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TLTheLiberator

11 years ago

Russia wants in...

Russia Says It Would Consider Asylum For Edward Snowden

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Kay King 11 years ago

join Julian A. in S. America

Julian isn't in S.America - he's still stuck in the embassy in UK. Reportedly UK has spent 5 million just making sure he doesn't escape from the embassy. At least that's what I've read.

I wouldn't be surprised if Snowden gets asylum and I wonder if the powers that be in the US have considered the potential problems of extraditing and trying him.

Public sentiment could be strongly in Snowden's favor here.
It's going to be hard to claim info released by Snowden was "already public knowledge so no big deal" and then charge him for releasing it except to charge him with violating his security clearance.

The Snowden headline today is a hoot. "Snowden was fired from the NSA!".....yeah, he was fired yesterday, June 10
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TLTheLiberator

11 years ago

Surprise, someone's been fired.

Edward Snowden Fired By Booz Allen; Whistleblower Made Only $122,000

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yukon

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

Surprise, someone's been fired.

Edward Snowden Fired By Booz Allen; Whistleblower Made Only $122,000

...because $122,000 income is a low wage.

That article title is silly.

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Kay King

11 years ago

Sal - He's been offered asylum (Argentina? can't remember) - but can't get there as long as he's not able to leave the embassy - and UK is making sure he can't leave. It's a standoff, I guess.

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Sal - He's been offered asylum (Argentina? can't remember) - but can't get there as long as he's not able to leave the embassy - and UK is making sure he can't leave. It's a standoff, I guess.

Diplomatically, the embassy, grounds, cars, planes of a given country's embassy are that country. so how does the UK make sure he can't leave? Especially when in a country where they are protected by the same rules.

Steve

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Alexa Smith Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Diplomatically, the embassy, grounds, cars, planes of a given country's embassy are that country.

Yes and no. Some by law, and some just "by convention".

The embassy is right on a central London street; the Ecuadorians can probably smuggle him out in the "diplomatic bag" (it would have to be a suspiciously big one!) but are clearly not going to, at this stage: the reality is that whereas they're willing to accommodate him on their sovereign "territory", they're probably unwilling to risk a full-scale diplomatic contretemps with the British Foreign Office over something that may eventually subside anyway, if Sweden will at some point rescind its (maybe somewhat questionable) arrest warrant.

(I say "maybe somewhat questionable" only in respect of it having been signed by a prosecutor rather than by a judge, this differentiation having some potential significance in European law - indeed, some here were surprised that the court was willing to uphold it in the first place. To me, this seems a hugely important point of principle - not everyone agrees with this perspective).
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Sarevok

11 years ago

Bangkok has him now

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SandraLarkin

Banned 11 years ago

You have to love how the treasonous players in the US government are calling him a "traitor" and saying he committed "treason".

Absolute insanity. I'd goto Iceland if I were him.

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HeySal

11 years ago

Okay - I got Julian's location wrong. I read something about some country in S. America offering assylum awhile back and presumed he went.

Yeah - isn't it funny that treasoners always call those who expose them treasoners?

It's not the data that they collect that's the big issue though -- it's what they do with it that is so frightening. I can't believe people allowed our gov to get this far.

At least I don't have to listen to BS about "tinfoil" anymore. Small favors.

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yukon

Banned 11 years ago

What's stupid about this case is people talking about China trying to get involved with this guy Snowden, like China doesn't spy on it's own citizens.

Give me a break. :rolleyes:

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derekwong28

11 years ago

It seems Snowden might chose to seek asylum in Hong Kong than China.

BBC News - Spy leaker Edward Snowden 'vows to fight extradition'

At least in Hong Kong, there is free speech but no democracy, whereas in China there is none. Therefore he could not be accused as being a hypocrite and a traitor. But the problem is that if the US decides to abduct him, Hong Kong is unlikely to kick up much of a fuss. If he wants to really safe, he should defect directly to China, Russia or Cuba.

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yukon

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by derekwong28

It seems Snowden might chose to seek asylum in Hong Kong than China.

BBC News - Spy leaker Edward Snowden 'vows to fight extradition'

At least in Hong Kong, there is free speech but no democracy, whereas in China there is none. Therefore he could not be accused as being a hypocrite and a traitor. But the problem is that if the US decides to abduct him, Hong Kong is unlikely to kick up much of a fuss. If he wants to really safe, he should defect directly to China, Russia or Cuba.

If he doesn't end up back in the US, those other countries will pick him to pieces trying to pump more info. out of him since he has a record of blabbing everything he knows.

It will probably come down to the highest bidder for who tries to hide the guy, but hey it's not about him it's about principle, lol.

Either way the guy has screwed the rest of his own life up.

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derekwong28

11 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

Either way the guy has screwed the rest of his own life up.

This guy really does have principles though and he is willing to give up everything for them. I wish we had more people like him in China.

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yukon

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by derekwong28

This guy really does have principles though and he is willing to give up everything for them. I wish we had more people like him in China.

This guy doesn't have any principles, he was payed $122,000 a year to do his job, not steal data.

All jobs have a chain of command, he chose to destroy his own life by not following that chain, instead he went blabbing to the entire world.

It's naive to think any major country isn't breaking it's own laws, the CIA has been around for years, do you really think they're going to ask for a search warrant for personal info, that's not even realistic.

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Doran Peck

11 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

This guy doesn't have any principles, he was payed $122,000 a year to do his job, not steal data.

All jobs have a chain of command, he chose to destroy his own life by not following that chain, instead he went blabbing to the entire world.

It's naive to think any major country isn't breaking it's own laws, the CIA has been around for years, do you really think they're going to ask for a search warrant for personal info, that's not even realistic.

Your remarks in this post are simply baffling to me.

For starters...he didn't steal any data. He simply showed proof that government agencies are trying to do something in secrecy that directly effects every citizen, and is in fact, whether you like it or not, against the law. If ever there were a show of principles, that certainly qualifies.

Then you say...all jobs have a chain of command...and he "chose to ruin his life"....and..."then he went blabbing"

That whole comment sounds like something someone would say who just got taddled on and was upset about it. So you apparently sympathize with the NSA, at least we know where you stand.

Lets keep in mind that he went blabbing about something that is universally understood as being "wrong"

refreshing memory here...straight from Obamas mouth...

https://content.bitsontherun.com/previews/n9V24Ey1

...and for the record...this kid didn't babble anything that that we didn't already know. We tin foil hat owners already knew all of this was taking place. Everyone else is just slow on the take...as usual.

Then you say "its naïve to think a country doesn't break its own laws"...well ok...but saying that doesn't mean its ok to do it. At some point you have to look at it and say OK, well which rules are they breaking exactly?...which things are they telling us are true and which are the lies?

You can't just continue on and think...well I know that somewhere in there 20% of what comes out of government is corrupt.

*sigh* Oh well.

WHICH specific 20% is it? ...and why do we feel its acceptable that there is even 1% ?

You don't seem to feel that the CIA should have to bother with a search warrant...even though you acknowledge that there is some unknown amount of corruption in the CIA....really?

Corruption works against us...that means it isn't to "our benefit"...It works the opposite direction of that...which is to "our detriment"

Keep that in mind as you give willfully these agencies your blessing.

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yukon

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Doran Peck

Your remarks in this post are simply baffling to me.

For starters...he didn't steal any data. He simply showed proof that government agencies are trying to do something in secrecy that directly effects every citizen, and is in fact, whether you like it or not, against the law. If ever there were a show of principles, that certainly qualifies.

Then you say...all jobs have a chain of command...and he "chose to ruin his life"....and..."then he went blabbing"

That whole comment sounds like something someone would say who just got taddled on and was upset about it. So you apparently sympathize with the NSA, at least we know where you stand.

Lets keep in mind that he went blabbing about something that is universally understood as being "wrong"

refreshing memory here...straight from Obamas mouth...

https://content.bitsontherun.com/previews/n9V24Ey1

...and for the record...this kid didn't babble anything that that we didn't already know. We tin foil hat owners already knew all of this was taking place. Everyone else is just slow on the take...as usual.

Then you say "its naïve to think a country doesn't break its own laws"...well ok...but saying that doesn't mean its ok to do it. At some point you have to look at it and say OK, well which rules are they breaking exactly?...which things are they telling us are true and which are the lies?

You can't just continue on and think...well I know that somewhere in there 20% of what comes out of government is corrupt.

*sigh* Oh well.

WHICH specific 20% is it? ...and why do we feel its acceptable that there is even 1% ?

You don't seem to feel that the CIA should have to bother with a search warrant...even though you acknowledge that there is some unknown amount of corruption in the CIA....really?

Corruption works against us...that means it isn't to "our benefit"...It works the opposite direction of that...which is to "our detriment"

Keep that in mind as you give willfully these agencies your blessing.

I'm baffled that people are naive enough to think every country isn't doing whatever they want with any data/info they can get their hands on. Your confusing yourself because I never said I supported any Gov snooping on individual people. I said it's naive to think it hasn't been going on for years.

The guy stole data/info, he's not running around the world for exercise.

If someone found out your SS# & told the entire world, do you not think that's theft? Would you feel different If it was your personal data/info? I think we both know that answer.

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

I'm baffled that people are naive enough to think every country isn't doing whatever they want with any data/info they can get their hands on. Your confusing yourself because I never said I supported any Gov snooping on individual people. I said it's naive to think it hasn't been going on for years.

The guy stole data/info, he's not running around the world for exercise.

If someone found out your SS# & told the entire world, do you not think that's theft? Would you feel different If it was your personal data/info? I think we both know that answer.

He didn't steal data/info! He is saying that the GOVERNMENT did! Call it what you want, it is THEFT! It is ILLEGAL! ******THAT****** is why, for HUNDREDS of years, they have been getting individual subpoenas!

Steve

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bluecoyotemedia

11 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

I'm baffled that people are naive enough to think every country isn't doing whatever they want with any data/info they can get their hands on. Your confusing yourself because I never said I supported any Gov snooping on individual people. I said it's naive to think it hasn't been going on for years.

The guy stole data/info, he's not running around the world for exercise.

If someone found out your SS# & told the entire world, do you not think that's theft? Would you feel different If it was your personal data/info? I think we both know that answer.

Yukon

this guy edward is indeed a hero and if we had more people with courage to come out and expose these kinds of abuses

maybe things would get to the point that they would change

Eddie

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SandraLarkin

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

This guy doesn't have any principles, he was payed $122,000 a year to do his job, not steal data.

All jobs have a chain of command, he chose to destroy his own life by not following that chain, instead he went blabbing to the entire world.

It's naive to think any major country isn't breaking it's own laws, the CIA has been around for years, do you really think they're going to ask for a search warrant for personal info, that's not even realistic.

Yes, so just let them record every single conversation every American has on the phone, internet, you name it. It is not only directly against the constitution for which the country stands, it is high treason.

What they have in place is a monolithic system of surveillance on every single US citizen. If you do not see anything wrong with that, I have no idea what to say.

This guy pointed it out. He should be commended as a hero in the "land of the free". Instead the treasonous leaders want him hung up.

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yukon

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by SandraLarkin

Yes, so just let them record every single conversation every American has on the phone, internet, you name it. It is not only directly against the constitution for which the country stands, it is high treason.

What they have in place is a monolithic system of surveillance on every single US citizen. If you do not see anything wrong with that, I have no idea what to say.

This guy pointed it out. He should be commended as a hero in the "land of the free". Instead the treasonous leaders want him hung up.

Good grief, you can't possibly think just because some Gov says Oh, we won't snoop on anyone, that's the end of the story, done. :rolleyes:

Just like the last comment, your confusing yourself, because I never once said I support any Gov. snooping, I said people are being naive to think it hasn't been going on for years.

He's not a hero, he took a paycheck & committed treason from leaked NSA data/info.

Two wrongs doesn't make a right.

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SandraLarkin

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

Good grief, you can't possibly think just because some Gov says Oh, we won't snoop on anyone, that's the end of the story, done. :rolleyes:

Just like the last comment, your confusing yourself, because I never once said I support any Gov. snooping, I said people are being naive to think it hasn't been going on for years.

He's not a hero, he took a paycheck & committed treason from leaked NSA data/info.

Two wrongs doesn't make a right.

The government committed treason of the highest order, not this guy. This guy EXPOSED the treason. It is extremely frightening people keep thinking the whistleblower is the one committing treason when the government has blatantly trashed the fourth amendment for which they swore to protect. That is the definition of treason.

It does not matter if it has been going on for years, the mass population did not know about it, and now they do. It is WRONG and it is ILLEGAL. It NEEDS to stop, and this is the first step in doing that.

He took a paycheck, found out about this information, cataloged it, and stopped taking a paycheck and ran for his life in our "free' society. He is a hero, and it is sad people can call him a traitor for what he did.

It's unreal you just let the government lie with no recourse and say"Well, that's just the government, nothing we ca do."

This guy obviously did something, and this needs to continue to happen to change the monolithic, out of control 1984 government the US wants to turn into.

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yukon

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by SandraLarkin

The government committed treason of the highest order, not this guy. This guy EXPOSED the treason. It is extremely frightening people keep thinking the whistleblower is the one committing treason when the government has blatantly trashed the fourth amendment for which they swore to protect. That is the definition of treason.

It does not matter if it has been going on for years, the mass population did not know about it, and now they do. It is WRONG and it is ILLEGAL. It NEEDS to stop, and this is the first step in doing that.

He took a paycheck, found out about this information, cataloged it, and stopped taking a paycheck and ran for his life in our "free' society. He is a hero, and it is sad people can call him a traitor for what he did.

It's unreal you just let the government lie with no recourse and say"Well, that's just the government, nothing we ca do."

This guy obviously did something, and this needs to continue to happen to change the monolithic, out of control 1984 government the US wants to turn into.

This guy committed treason. He's not a judge, he has no right to the data/info he took/shared.

Your dreaming If you think this will stop any Gov from continuing to monitor personal data/info.

He was fired after he ran.

One things for sure, you can bet Gov will tighten up security clearances, which will only make the next version of PRISM even more secretive (probably already done).

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SandraLarkin

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

This guy committed treason. He's not a judge, he has no right to the data/info he took/shared.

Your dreaming If you think this will stop any Gov from continuing to monitor personal data/info.

He was fired after he ran.

One things for sure, you can bet Gov will tighten up security clearances, which will only make the next version of PRISM even more secretive (probably already done).

It's absolutely laughable you say the whistleblower committed treason. It's unthinkable people actually defend the government when they commit the actual treason by spying on your every move, every day, without cause in direct violation of American law in which this country was founded on.

Do I think the surveillance will stop? No!

Do I think the crimes of this criminal government are starting to unravel? Yes.

Will this eventually bring down these criminals in government? Who knows, but things like this help.

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David Maschke

11 years ago

Originally Posted by SandraLarkin

It's absolutely laughable you say the whistleblower committed treason. It's unthinkable people actually defend the government when they commit the actual treason by spying on your every move, every day, without cause in direct violation of American law in which this country was founded on.

Do I think the surveillance will stop? No!

Do I think the crimes of this criminal government are starting to unravel? Yes.

Will this eventually bring down these criminals in government? Who knows, but things like this help.

The guy is a whistleblower, and he's going to cost the NSA and communication companies tens of millions of dollars.

That is the NEW definition of treason these days.

And I got a few more words for you, Ms. Larkin, about your other thoughts too... they're spot on

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Kay King

11 years ago

This statement is odd to me:

All jobs have a chain of command

I agree with that - but it's missing something.

These people work for all of us....and we have a place in that "chain of command"...or should have at any rate.

It's strange HuffPost article says they were looking for Snowden for days...yet he wasn't fired until a couple days ago.

Some of the article doesn't ring true - a security clearance doesn't follow the person - it's connected to the job and the security level required to do that job.

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David Maschke

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

It's strange HuffPost article says they were looking for Snowden for days...yet he wasn't fired until a couple days ago.

Some of the article doesn't ring true - a security clearance doesn't follow the person - it's connected to the job and the security level required to do that job.

I see what you're getting at after reading the article.

I never worked for the CIA or NSA, so take it with a grain of salt (that goes without saying)

I've known people who have had to get a security clearance, and it takes a very long time and it is expensive. They literally go over everything from the day you were born, to make sure there is nothing about you that can go wrong, such as addictions, sexual frustrations, financial problems, psychological problems, anything that a foreign government can use as leverage to get people to behave towards their goals.

The NSA probably didn't have to go thru all that again after the CIA cleared him.

As for him getting fired after the leak, his superiors were probably curious as to his whereabouts, but may have been in a state of denial too.

Again, these are just my opinions, I probably know even less than you on this subject concerning Snowden.

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

This statement is odd to me:

I agree with that - but it's missing something.

These people work for all of us....and we have a place in that "chain of command"...or should have at any rate.

It's strange HuffPost article says they were looking for Snowden for days...yet he wasn't fired until a couple days ago.

Some of the article doesn't ring true - a security clearance doesn't follow the person - it's connected to the job and the security level required to do that job.

YEAH. They said this is being controlled by the courts. That s ******BULL****** and they KNOW IT! The reason why they went to get ALL records is because they DON'T want the courts to have control on a case by case basis. And they CLAIM that FISA looks at this. you know wat FISA is? "Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act". This is NOT foreign, and WHY would they decline it? In any event, HOW would they be pulled in, WHERE, and WHY?

FISA Court Appears To Be Rubberstamp For Government Requests : NPR

Do you think traditionally that law enforcement goes to courts? ****NO WAY****! what happens is they figure they have a suspect, could use inside info, and decide to wiretap. ******BRICK WALL******! They CAN'T wire tap! So they GO TO THE COURTS! With all the records there, WHERE is the brick wall that forces them to go to court?

Steve

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David Maschke 11 years ago

Originally Posted by SandraLarkin

Do I think the surveillance will stop? No!

Do I think the crimes of this criminal government are starting to unravel? Yes.

Those are the key questions. Our allies are asking the very same questions, because we are spying on them too, which is half the reason why London broke the story.

They must retaliate somehow. You can't sit at the table and not play the game.
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Doran Peck

11 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

Good grief, you can't possibly think just because some Gov says Oh, we won't snoop on anyone, that's the end of the story, done. :rolleyes:

Just like the last comment, your confusing yourself, because I never once said I support any Gov. snooping, I said people are being naive to think it hasn't been going on for years.

He's not a hero, he took a paycheck & committed treason from leaked NSA data/info.

Two wrongs doesn't make a right.

You said it in your very next sentence

You said he has committed treason for telling the world that the NSA is snooping on Americans. That is the exact same thing as saying you support government snooping, because you support the NSA's actions

That's all he did here, is say "The NSA is snooping on Americans" He didn't steal anything.

Its been clearly established in various laws, including foremost, the constitution itself, that snooping into the privacy of citizens is illegal....the Bush administration was taken to court over it...the current president vowed against as part of his election campaign.

So I'm not sure why you are having a hard time grasping why what the NSA did was wrong.

He simply spoke up to the people and said, Hey, this government agency is breaking the law!

you said "He's not a hero, he took a paycheck & committed treason from leaked NSA data/info."

....info that the NSA broke the law to acquire in the first place.

What he did is no different than an employee of a company going to OSHA and saying, my employer has me working in a room full of mold, and they refuse to fix it.

Your basically saying he shouldn't have blown the NSA's cover...just kept his mouth shut and collected his paycheck and let his employer continue to break the law....because as you put it...they've been doing it for years, and everyone knows they've been doing it for years, its just the way things are, go along with it and be a good little worker bee and keep your pie hole shut.

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yukon

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Doran Peck

You said it in your very next sentence

You said he has committed treason for telling the world that the NSA is snooping on Americans. That is the exact same thing as saying you support government snooping, because you support the NSA's actions

Me saying he committed treason isn't taking sides with Gov, I said I don't agree with it, that doesn't stop it from happening.

Originally Posted by Doran Peck

That's all he did here, is say "The NSA is snooping on Americans" He didn't steal anything.

You sure he didn't take anything, because I'm reading he released documents?

Originally Posted by Doran Peck

Your basically saying he shouldn't have blown the NSA's cover...just kept his mouth shut and collected his paycheck and let his employer continue to break the law....because as you put it...they've been doing it for years, and everyone knows they've been doing it for years, its just the way things are, go along with it and be a good little worker bee and keep your pie hole shut.

Nope, I'm saying he accepted $122K while stealing data/info which makes him wrong (two times). If anything the Gov has a lawsuit for breach of contract.

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

Me saying he committed treason isn't taking sides with Gov, I said I don't agree with it, that doesn't stop it from happening.

He still has to be tried.

You sure he didn't take anything, because I'm reading he released documents?

I doubt he took anything material.

Nope, I'm saying he accepted $122K while stealing data/info which makes him wrong (two times). If anything the Gov has a lawsuit for breach of contract.

This is actually iffy. he may nt be subject to a contract in the government. ALSO, you have to be careful of wording. AND, again, he must be tried.

Steve

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yukon

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

He still has to be tried.

I doubt he took anything material.

This is actually iffy. he may nt be subject to a contract in the government. ALSO, you have to be careful of wording. AND, again, he must be tried.

Steve

Sure he'll get a trial (at least one trial, maybe more) when he returns to the US, but he's already confessed to treason so that's pretty much done.

Sharing confidential data/info is the same as stealing, especially under contract.

He isn't getting security clearance from NSA without a written/signed contract, even If that contract is provided by his employer via NSA.

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seasoned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

Sure he'll get a trial (at least one trial, maybe more) when he returns to the US, but he's already confessed to treason so that's pretty much done.

Actually, it ISN'T! He confessed ONLY to what he confessed to, NOT treason. Still, even if he WERE found guilty, there is the punishment.

Sharing confidential data/info is the same as stealing, especially under contract.

But HAS HE? WAS IT?

He isn't getting security clearance from NSA without a written/signed contract, even If that contract is provided by his employer via NSA.

WANT TO BET!?!?!?

Steve
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Doran Peck

11 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

Me saying he committed treason isn't taking sides with Gov, I said I don't agree with it, that doesn't stop it from happening.

You sure he didn't take anything, because I'm reading he released documents?

Nope, I'm saying he accepted $122K while stealing data/info which makes him wrong (two times). If anything the Gov has a lawsuit for breach of contract.

His documents were merely the description of the snooping process. The proof that they are doing it.

The bottom line is, The NSA has in its possession, something that it is forbidden by law to have in its possession.

What you are proposing is that, Government should be able to get away with whatever they want, because its workers can't ever taddle on them because they signed a contract.

When someone is breaking the law...you speak up. Period.

If your going to insist on a violation of contract, then you need to understand what circumstances void a contract.
One, failure of either party to complete agreed upon items, and two, when a contract sets forth actions that violate the law.

The very second the NSA had Mr. Snowden participate in anything related to snooping activity, the contract became non-enforceable. Therefore he "breached" nothing.

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HeySal

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Doran Peck

You said it in your very next sentence

You said he has committed treason for telling the world that the NSA is snooping on Americans. That is the exact same thing as saying you support government snooping, because you support the NSA's actions

That's all he did here, is say "The NSA is snooping on Americans" He didn't steal anything.

Its been clearly established in various laws, including foremost, the constitution itself, that snooping into the privacy of citizens is illegal....the Bush administration was taken to court over it...the current president vowed against as part of his election campaign.

So I'm not sure why you are having a hard time grasping why what the NSA did was wrong.

He simply spoke up to the people and said, Hey, this government agency is breaking the law!

you said "He's not a hero, he took a paycheck & committed treason from leaked NSA data/info."

....info that the NSA broke the law to acquire in the first place.

What he did is no different than an employee of a company going to OSHA and saying, my employer has me working in a room full of mold, and they refuse to fix it.

Your basically saying he shouldn't have blown the NSA's cover...just kept his mouth shut and collected his paycheck and let his employer continue to break the law....because as you put it...they've been doing it for years, and everyone knows they've been doing it for years, its just the way things are, go along with it and be a good little worker bee and keep your pie hole shut.

Actually what he did was exactly what he (or any other American citizen) is supposed to do. If you do not report a crime when you are aware of it, you can actually be tried yourself for "aiding and abetting". His duty by law was to report the crime. Since he reported crimes being committed against the American public by officials, all he has done is his legal duty. Unfortunately, the criminals who are committing the crimes have enough power to hold him forever as a political prisoner, same as they are doing to Manning - or even assassinate him.

I admire the hell out of his bravery - and his integrity. I wish everyone was more like him.

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badlimey 11 years ago

Too Political a topic for the forum. But you should check out Oath Keepers
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TimPhelan 11 years ago

Yes, and for what? I still don't really see a big blockbuster story here.

Originally Posted by yukon

Either way the guy has screwed the rest of his own life up.
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TLTheLiberator

11 years ago

Former NSA Chief: The Agency Has ‘Very Good Idea’ Which Secrets Snowden Swiped | TPMDC

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David Maschke

11 years ago

The real story in all of this is not the spying.

The real story is we now have 100% proof of the U.S. working with corporations against the people, and they don't even try to deny it this time.

Here is a quote commonly attributed to Mussolini, "Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power."

According to the Guardian, here are the companies working with the NSA...

Microsoft was the first to be included, in September 2007.
Yahoo followed in March 2008,
Google in January 2009,
Facebook in June 2009,
Paltalk, a Windows- and mobile-based chat program, in December 2009,
YouTube in September 2010,
Skype in February 2011 (before its acquisition by Microsoft),
AOL in March 2011
and finally Apple in October 2012.

London, and the Guardian, have been trying to get the word out. But they over estimated the peoples ability to give a shit.

Reagan's warning is more appropriate now than ever, and he explains how to avoid conflict in probably his best speech ever:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3MiBI9ZRBo

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BTM

11 years ago

He might be protected there. Its hard to tell. China and the US have so many financial ties money may talk and he ends up missing.

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Kay King

11 years ago

Diplomatically, the embassy, grounds, cars, planes of a given country's embassy are that country. so how does the UK make sure he can't leave? Especially when in a country where they are protected by the same rules.

It seems the problem is in order to reach a plane to leave the country he must leave embassy grounds - the moment he does that he will be arrested.

Apparently the immunity of those driving an embassy car or flying a plane would not provide immunity for Assange outside the Embassy as he would then be on British soil.

Reports are that Scotland Yard has spent 4-5 million on this surveillance so far. The question is how the public will tolerate this expense just to keep one person inside the Ecuadorian embassy. He's been there a year already - with no end in sight.

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Alexa Smith

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Apparently the immunity of those driving an embassy car or flying a plane would not provide immunity for Assange outside the Embassy as he would then be on British soil.

Well, it seems that he'd effectively be immune from arrest inside a "diplomatic bag", but it also seems pretty certain that that isn't going to be put to the test, anyway.

Originally Posted by Kay King

Reports are that Scotland Yard has spent 4-5 million on this surveillance so far.

They have no choice. It would be enormously embarrassing for them if they let him slip away. They have to have a team of officers there 24/7.

Originally Posted by Kay King

The question is how the public will tolerate this expense just to keep one person inside the Ecuadorian embassy.

With no problem at all, it seems. It's only "strange European laws" (which most of the British public resent anyway) that have put them in that position.

Originally Posted by Kay King

He's been there a year already - with no end in sight.

I think there may be an end in sight ... :confused:

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TLTheLiberator

11 years ago

Edward Snowden To South China Morning Post: Let Hong Kong 'Decide My Fate'

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TLTheLiberator

11 years ago

Edward Snowden Tells South China Morning Post: U.S. Has Been Hacking Hong Kong And China Since 2009

Other famous leakers...

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/list-...recent-history

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seasoned

11 years ago

David,

That WAS a great speech. He WAS a great speaker. It is sad that he went away, let alone to go as he did.

Alexa,

Even CONVENTION might as well be LAW when it comes to foreign diplomacy. fortunes have been lost, and wars started, by ONE misstep. I still have heard no real thing about what snowden has done that is so worthy of rebuke. He isn't like G gordon liddy, but rather woodward and bernstien. That puts some in a tough spot.

As for the terrorists? Tey claimed that UBL was defeating such measures from the beginning. And did you know they claim this only helped investigate, in a remedial way, TWO incidents?

Still, who is to say this is true? Apparently MANY things weren't true, and so the story about snowden is left in doubt. FURTHER, the creator of the "master george" video is apparently FAR from articulate, and WANTS to be a scape goat. It sounds more like it was planned by someone else, and he was paid off! This REALLY makes you think!

Steve

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Alexa Smith Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Alexa,

Even CONVENTION might as well be LAW when it comes to foreign diplomacy.

Good point, Steve - thanks. Public international "law" does include "conventions", I think, now you mention it.
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seasoned

11 years ago

BTW I THOUGHT I heard something, and now it has been confirmed,

Snowden's history was as little more than a security guard, no formal education AND, from what I understand, a HIGHSCHOOL DROPOUT! and yet he was working on a government project requiring a security clearance.

This SMACKS of a conspiracy! Either they DIDN'T CARE, or they DIDN'T CHECK! Lying about something like this *****WOULD***** be caught!

Steve

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yukon

Banned 11 years ago

Apparently some folks on this forum have a short memory, or selective memory, because when the Boston bombing happened the media was reporting that the local cell phone towers were all being monitored, which is enough proof to know NSA tracking had to be used long before the problem in Boston.

Now all of a sudden it's a problem, make up your minds people, is a problem or not? Or is it a problem only when it's not convenient?

I think all this is, is people want the underdog to win regardless of what's going on.

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

Apparently some folks on this forum have a short memory, or selective memory, because when the Boston bombing happened the media was reporting that the local cell phone towers were all being monitored, which is enough proof to know NSA tracking had to be used long before the problem in Boston.

Now all of a sudden it's a problem, make up your minds people, is a problem or not? Or is it a problem only when it's not convenient?

I think all this is, is people want the underdog to win regardless of what's going on.

Well, I believe they used it to track THEM. Could you imagine trying to track BILLIONS of people using cell phone towers? It would be awfully slow, and WHY?

Cellphone tracking used to catch Boston bomber, local criminals

Ed Deveau, chief of police in Watertown, says, "We were able to ping *******that phone******* and find out it was in Watertown, and it was heading in a certain neighborhood of Watertown."

This is VERY different from getting calling records for EVERYONE! BTW calling records would NOT have allowed them to track down this suspect! NO WAY AT ALL! So HOW did they catch him?

1. The PHONE WAS ON!
2. The PHONE WAS NEARBY!
3. THEY PINGED THE PHONE!(If they had done this with everyone's phone, it would have hampered communications, they would get NO worthwhile info, and it would have taken FOREVER!)

Steve

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yukon

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Well, I believe they used it to track THEM. Could you imagine trying to track BILLIONS of people using cell phone towers? It would be awfully slow, and WHY?

Cellphone tracking used to catch Boston bomber, local criminals

This is VERY different from getting calling records for EVERYONE! BTW calling records would NOT have allowed them to track down this suspect! NO WAY AT ALL! So HOW did they catch him?

1. The PHONE WAS ON!
2. The PHONE WAS NEARBY!
3. THEY PINGED THE PHONE!(If they had done this with everyone's phone, it would have hampered communications, they would get NO worthwhile info, and it would have taken FOREVER!)

Steve

Your talking about an unlimited amount of resources & all telcom allowing this to happen, so I doubt they have any problems tracking live cell towers.

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seasoned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

Your talking about an unlimited amount of resources & all telcom allowing this to happen, so I doubt they have any problems tracking live cell towers.

WRONG! VERY limited use of resources! I am OK with using cell towers to track a fugitive. I am NOT ok with getting EVERYONE'S call info to try to determine habits, friends, etc...

Steve
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TLTheLiberator

11 years ago

Edward Snowden Search Began Days Before NSA Surveillance Program Reports Went Public

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"It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

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badlimey

11 years ago

My question is, do you consider him an American Traitor or an American Hero. Of course your answer may be monitored by the N.S.A.

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TLTheLiberator

11 years ago

Is what the NSA is doing - in this situation, technically legal or not?

I hear the ACLU is going to take this to the SCOTUS to challenge its' constitutionality.

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

Is what the NSA is doing - in this situation, technically legal or not?

I hear the ACLU is going to take this to the SCOTUS to challenge its' constitutionality.

It's not even TECHNICALLY legal! Employees are told NOT to release such info. That is BOILERPLATE! There are privacy and competition concerns. YKW likes to say this does NOT contain content, and isn't wiretapping. To a degree, that is a LIE! It DOES contain content! It is merely at another level.

You CAN, by looking at that content(Phone records ONLY)(And a COMPUTER can EASILY do 1000s of records a second, AUTOMATICALLY), you can determine if a person has kids, if they are married, where they are, what schools the kids are going to, if they committed certain misdeeds, libraries they go to, potential friends, if there was a death in the family, if there was a marriage, if they rented a car, if they have problems with the police, what languages they speak, sexual orientation, their religion, who their friends are, etc....

Does any of that sound invasive yet? I could keep going! If they wiretapped everyone's phones, they would at least have to sort through possibly pentabytes of data and have to do a lot of it MANUALLY.

Steve

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TLTheLiberator

11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

It's not even TECHNICALLY legal! Employees are told NOT to release such info. That is BOILERPLATE! There are privacy and competition concerns. YKW likes to say this does NOT contain content, and isn't wiretapping. To a degree, that is a LIE! It DOES contain content! It is merely at another level.

You CAN, by looking at that content(Phone records ONLY)(And a COMPUTER can EASILY do 1000s of records a second, AUTOMATICALLY), you can determine if a person has kids, if they are married, where they are, what schools the kids are going to, if they committed certain misdeeds, libraries they go to, potential friends, if there was a death in the family, if there was a marriage, if they rented a car, if they have problems with the police, what languages they speak, sexual orientation, their religion, who their friends are, etc....

Does any of that sound invasive yet? I could keep going! If they wiretapped everyone's phones, they would at least have to sort through possibly pentabytes of data and have to do a lot of it MANUALLY.

Steve

It may not be right but...

... this guy and many others say it's all legal.

Who's right?

Leighton Woodhouse: NSA Surveillance Is Legal, and That's the Worst Thing About It

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

It may not be right but...

... this guy and many others say it's all legal.

Who's right?

Leighton Woodhouse: NSA Surveillance Is Legal, and That's the Worst Thing About It

From the beginning, you had to SUBPOENA such records on a CASE BY CASE basis!

Realize that 2 levels deep might not tell you much. If I were them, I would want FOUR! What does that mean? WELL, the suspect calls a friend who then, not being able to do that, calls a friend of his, who does maybe garage door work. Garage doors today may have screws, metal fabrication, electronics, radio controls, etc.... Maybe YOU have a problem with your garage door, and call that guy. *****BAM*****! WELCOME! You JUST made the SUSPECT LIST! If the timing is right, or they want to be thorough, they may tap your phone, etc.... After all, maybe the garage person is better in each area, wants to build an atom bomb, and you are calling to say you have the fissionable material. Who's to say? So they tap your phone to find out.

Had they don't such things with the boston bomber, they would NEVER have bombed boston! WHY? SIMPLE! There were clerics that were KNOWN to be trouble that apparently talked to the bombers. They could have said HERE is a guy that is getting together with a troublemaker and became a citizen on 9/11. They should be looked at. They got such and such, DEPORT THEM or some such.

would be all for such things IF it was CASE BY CASE! They are a special case, since the case that the government should look at is the CLERIC! The boston bomber calls, and BANG! He's a SUSPECT! That is how it is SUPPOSED to happen! They do it with rapists, predators, car thieves, but apparently not much with terrorists.

Do you STILL feel safe? Look at Richard Jewel, randy weaver, etc.... ALL people that "had nothing to hide", were INNOCENT, and ended up getting hurt. OK, OK, Randy weaver wasn't killed, and got things straightened out, but he still has a reputation. OH YEAH, his wife, son, and dog were killed!

Steve

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HeySal

11 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

Is what the NSA is doing - in this situation, technically legal or not?

I hear the ACLU is going to take this to the SCOTUS to challenge its' constitutionality.

NSA is an agent of the Federal Government:

The 1st Amendment - protects our right to free speech.
The 4th Amendment - protects us from unwarranted search and seizure.
The 5th Amendment - protects us from incriminating ourselves.
The 10th Amendment - negates the federal government from any authority not expressly granted in the constitution or any of its amendments.

This action (spying on the general public) is expressly prohibited under the 4th and 10th amendment.

When the government can listen to any communication of any citizen who is not suspect in a particular crime, we lose the first fourth and 5th amendments. Not only can they act against you either covertly or overtly if they don't like what you have said/written - they are also disregarding the 10th amendment, which gives them no power to do so. They also risk infringing a person's 5th amendment right to not incriminate themselves if it is decided that something they are saying/doing is illegal. That is why a warrant is necessary to do what they are doing without such.

The treasoner is not the person who accuses the government of the crime - it is the government official who commits the crime. Snowden has done nothing wrong. He has reported a crime committed by the Federal Government. He has satisfied his technical, legal, and patriotic duty to report crimes in progress.

If Snowden would not have reported this crime, if it were discovered elsewise, he could have been tried and convicted for the spying just as anyone else participating can be. A lot of people in Germany thought they were safe because they were "just following orders". Once the Gulag got ahold of them, they found out differently.

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bluecoyotemedia

11 years ago

heysal

great points!!!

there is a scene from the last xmen movie where magneto was about to retaliate against the armed forces that were preparing to fire on them. and professor x was saying please don't they are just following orders..

and Magneto states. "my whole life I have been at the mercy of men just following orders"

sorry for the Marvel rant

Eddie

Originally Posted by HeySal

NSA is an agent of the Federal Government:

The 1st Amendment - protects our right to free speech.
The 4th Amendment - protects us from unwarranted search and seizure.
The 5th Amendment - protects us from incriminating ourselves.
The 10th Amendment - negates the federal government from any authority not expressly granted in the constitution or any of its amendments.

This action (spying on the general public) is expressly prohibited under the 4th and 10th amendment.

When the government can listen to any communication of any citizen who is not suspect in a particular crime, we lose the first fourth and 5th amendments. Not only can they act against you either covertly or overtly if they don't like what you have said/written - they are also disregarding the 10th amendment, which gives them no power to do so. They also risk infringing a person's 5th amendment right to not incriminate themselves if it is decided that something they are saying/doing is illegal. That is why a warrant is necessary to do what they are doing without such.

The treasoner is not the person who accuses the government of the crime - it is the government official who commits the crime. Snowden has done nothing wrong. He has reported a crime committed by the Federal Government. He has satisfied his technical, legal, and patriotic duty to report crimes in progress.

If Snowden would not have reported this crime, if it were discovered elsewise, he could have been tried and convicted for the spying just as anyone else participating can be. A lot of people in Germany thought they were safe because they were "just following orders". Once the Gulag got ahold of them, they found out differently.

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A clandestine group operating without any external intervention or oversight. Such groups achieve significant breakthroughs rarely discussed in public because they operate "outside the box".
https://short-stuff.com/-Mjk0fDExOA==

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Kay King 11 years ago

I have no idea why Snowden chose Hong Kong but I have a suspicion had he revealed the info while in the states ....he would have been made "unavailable for comment" very quickly.

Just like the Benghazi survivors who, to this day, have not been 'available'.
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TLTheLiberator

11 years ago

Edward Snowden used thumb drive to store NSA documents | TPM LiveWire

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"It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

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badlimey

11 years ago

I remember taking an oath to protect this country against all enemies foreign and domestic. If the Government has designs on taking away our constitutional rights, or interning us in FEMA camps, then some might consider the government an enemy of the people.

To quote Jefferson:
""When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."

I consider this man a true patriot, who obviously is willing to lay down his own life to protect our rights as a "FREE" people.

Google "Oath Keepers"

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US Army Retired
"Still Serving"

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TLTheLiberator

11 years ago

Report: Yahoo Challenged PRISM In 2008 | TPM LiveWire

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derekwong28

11 years ago

It seems that Snowden has obtained the support of Leung Kwok Hung who is one of the best known politicians in Hong Kong. There is a suppose to be March by 16 organizations today in support of Snowden today in front of the US consulate but it is raining badly right now.

HK Councilor Leung Kwok Hung LongHair Support...

He is Leung sitting in his capacity as a member of the Hong Kong legislature questing an applicant for a high ranking Government. The applicant is was Australian Chinese lawyer who supports China. This time, it is Leung who is on the receiving end of expletives insults, normally it is him who gives them.

Shanxi CPPCC member insults Leung Kwok Hung 'You...

March starts at Snowden rally in Hong Kong \| June...

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TimPhelan

11 years ago

"I like people who are willing to stand up to the government. As a reporter, it's my job to do that from time to time. Some of the people I admire most are in the government. Men and women who led the civil rights movement-- Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King, Jr.--they are true heroes. I'm not ready to put Edward Snowden in that category. For one thing, I don't remember Martin Luther King, Jr. or Rosa Parks running off and hiding in China. The people who led the civil rights movement were willing to break the law and suffer the consequences. That's a little different than putting the nation's security at risk and running away... I think what we have in Edward Snowden is just a narcissistic young man who has decided he is smarter than the rest of us. I don't know what he is beyond that, but he is no hero. If he has a valid point--and I'm not even sure he does--he would greatly help his cause by voluntarily coming home to face the consequences. " ~ Bob Schieffer.

I have to agree with old Bob on this one.

Bob Schieffer: Edward Snowden 'Is No Hero' (VIDEO)

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bluecoyotemedia

11 years ago

Tim

This guys life is over. period

I also don't put him in the same ranks of the people you mentioned but still have to give this guy credit for the courage that he took to do this

I mean his life is over

so are we at a point in time right now that people that are working within government that become aware of blatant abuses of government that should be afraid to come out with the truth of whats going on???

do you think we should be living in a continued fantasy land.. regurgitating ideals of what america is all about while behind the scenes

political officials do what they want???

are you not tired of being lied to???

personally I would not have risked my life for the numb down people who could really care less of whats going on except on whats going on on american idol.

anyway don't take this the wrong way because nothing we are speaking about actually matters since we are only having a mental masturbation exercise

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

"I like people who are willing to stand up to the government. As a reporter, it's my job to do that from time to time. Some of the people I admire most are in the government. Men and women who led the civil rights movement-- Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King, Jr.--they are true heroes. I'm not ready to put Edward Snowden in that category. For one thing, I don't remember Martin Luther King, Jr. or Rosa Parks running off and hiding in China. The people who led the civil rights movement were willing to break the law and suffer the consequences. That's a little different than putting the nation's security at risk and running away... I think what we have in Edward Snowden is just a narcissistic young man who has decided he is smarter than the rest of us. I don't know what he is beyond that, but he is no hero. If he has a valid point--and I'm not even sure he does--he would greatly help his cause by voluntarily coming home to face the consequences. " ~ Bob Schieffer.

I have to agree with old Bob on this one.

Bob Schieffer: Edward Snowden 'Is No Hero' (VIDEO)

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Skunkworks: noun. informal.

A clandestine group operating without any external intervention or oversight. Such groups achieve significant breakthroughs rarely discussed in public because they operate "outside the box".
https://short-stuff.com/-Mjk0fDExOA==

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derekwong28

11 years ago

The fact that he is hiding means that he does not think that he will be totally safe in Hong Kong, even if he is granted asylum. The most worrying thing for the US must be whether so sort of deal had been cut with China already. However, neither the Hong Kong or Chinese governments would like to be involved in this. But if the crunch comes, public opinion may matter. So far, the public support fro granting Snowden asylum is over 50%

However, it is completely possible that the Chinese government may not need to get involved. Hong Kong in the process of drawing up a protocol for reviewing asylum and this could take years. Also, the courts could block and extradition request if the person could be subjected to torture and cruel treatment. The view of the legal profession over here is that the treatment of Bradley Manning could constitute that. Therefore there is a good chance that any extradition request could be blocked by the courts and China will not need to get involved.

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lcombs

11 years ago

In answer to the OP...
I hope so.

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TLTheLiberator

11 years ago

Edward Snowden To Participate In Online Q&A Today | TPM LiveWire

Post your question here...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...-whistleblower

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Kay King

11 years ago

I have no desire to ask him questions - just watching to see what he does and how far he goes with this. I think the online thing is a bit dumb as it plays to an audience but that's his choice.

What I find fascinating about this story is this: depending on the year and the tone leaders of BOTH parties have been FOR this intrusion...and AGAINST it.

The same people who expressed shock and dismay about data gathering when they were not in power...now expand the program and support it. Some who conceived the data gathering when THEY ere in office now argue it's gone too far.

My conclusion: I can't trust any of them.:p Oh wait - didn't trust them in the first place....

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ThomM

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

I have no desire to ask him questions - just watching to see what he does and how far he goes with this. I think the online thing is a bit dumb as it plays to an audience but that's his choice.

What I find fascinating about this story is this: depending on the year and the tone leaders of BOTH parties have been FOR this intrusion...and AGAINST it.

The same people who expressed shock and dismay about data gathering when they were not in power...now expand the program and support it. Some who conceived the data gathering when THEY ere in office now argue it's gone too far.

My conclusion: I can't trust any of them.:p Oh wait - didn't trust them in the first place....

Very true Kay. It's easy enough to find videos of the current administration speaking in the Senate against what they are now doing. It's also easy enough to find videos of of both parties speaking against it when their party wasn't in office and for it when their party is.
With so much evidence out there showing the similarities of both parties in power, I'm amazed when people still say they are different.

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MissTerraK

11 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Very true Kay. It's easy enough to find videos of the current administration speaking in the Senate against what they are now doing. It's also easy enough to find videos of of both parties speaking against it when their party wasn't in office and for it when their party is.
With so much evidence out there showing the similarities of both parties in power, I'm amazed when people still say they are different.

You're right about that Thom.

I think they only appear to be divided to the public but behind scenes they're team players operating under the age old battle plan of "divide and conquer".

As long as they can get us, we the people, to focus on the separate parties and all of the fighting between them, they can do whatever the heck they want behind the closed doors of the white house until we are no longer free and the constitution has been declared null and void.

I can see it as plain as day and wonder why so many millions can't.

Terra

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Alexa Smith Banned 11 years ago

This fellow Ed Snowden was the subject of a question on the BBC's "Question Time" last Thursday night (which I got around to watching only today ).

The 6 participants were a government minister, an opposition spokesman, a Scottish (SNP) MP, the leader of the UK Independence Party, a well-known and popular journalist, and George Galloway.

Galloway responded first to the question and said that he thought Snowden should be given a medal or a prize, rather than arrested, and as I remember none of the other five participants significantly dissented from this view, at all, albeit that they were a little less outspoken (everyone's a little less outspoken than George Galloway). That was very clearly the view very widely subscribed to among the large studio audience, too (they happened on this occasion to be a student audience, but I don't imagine that any other "Question Time" audience would have been very different). And anything approaching unanimity, on that program, is very rare indeed.
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lcombs

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

I have no desire to ask him questions - just watching to see what he does and how far he goes with this. I think the online thing is a bit dumb as it plays to an audience but that's his choice.

What I find fascinating about this story is this: depending on the year and the tone leaders of BOTH parties have been FOR this intrusion...and AGAINST it.

The same people who expressed shock and dismay about data gathering when they were not in power...now expand the program and support it. Some who conceived the data gathering when THEY ere in office now argue it's gone too far.

My conclusion: I can't trust any of them.:p Oh wait - didn't trust them in the first place....

It seems everybody knows this yet, the same people get re-elected year after year.

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HeySal

11 years ago

There are also petitions to free Manning - quite a large movement, actually. They might not like whistleblowers, but they are starting to get some very heavy public support. I don't know ANYONE who actually thinks Snowden is a criminal and feel that the government is going to really find that any prosecution will backfire on them. Even MSM is not being able to get their usual coverup/cleanup technique to sway opinion. There are, however, a few people that still just don't "get" what the problem is.

As far as Benghazi -- several of the whistleblowers have already testify and those testimonies were damning to say the least. Yet the investigation is still being held off. Not having investigations on the issue is a conviction as far as I'm concerned.

They want to tell us that if we're not doing anything wrong we have nothing to fear.........yet when it comes to their secrecy, they fight tooth and nail not to give it up. A public figure should be the first to give up their privacy.

When they have your medical records, political affiliation records, etc and so forth - how easy will it be for you to get a job if the corp isn't in line with taking insurance risks on your health or won't support anyone who has an opposing opinion? It's getting extremely crazy in the US. Orwell got everything right but the date.

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

There are also petitions to free Manning - quite a large movement, actually. They might not like whistleblowers, but they are starting to get some very heavy public support. I don't know ANYONE who actually thinks Snowden is a criminal and feel that the government is going to really find that any prosecution will backfire on them. Even MSM is not being able to get their usual coverup/cleanup technique to sway opinion. There are, however, a few people that still just don't "get" what the problem is.

As far as Benghazi -- several of the whistleblowers have already testify and those testimonies were damning to say the least. Yet the investigation is still being held off. Not having investigations on the issue is a conviction as far as I'm concerned.

They want to tell us that if we're not doing anything wrong we have nothing to fear.........yet when it comes to their secrecy, they fight tooth and nail not to give it up. A public figure should be the first to give up their privacy.

When they have your medical records, political affiliation records, etc and so forth - how easy will it be for you to get a job if the corp isn't in line with taking insurance risks on your health or won't support anyone who has an opposing opinion? It's getting extremely crazy in the US. Orwell got everything right but the date.

I was just thinking today. The Census is to determine allocation of funds, and representatives. This is NOT to be by party, sex, race, or cultural heritage, so WHY do they ask those things on the census?

Orwell just switched the year and the decade.

Steve

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TLTheLiberator

11 years ago

Daily Kos: Snowden: "Being called a traitor by Dick Cheney is the highest honor for an American"

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David Maschke

11 years ago

If the NSA is gonna check emails, is there anyway we can get them to be virtual assistants at a help desk?

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TLTheLiberator

11 years ago

NSA/GOV officials on Cap Hill right now 11:22 EST, trying to explain the program(s) to lawmakers and how they're safeguarding the privacy of Americans.

Also, somebody is supposed to detail at least 50 terror plots foiled by the surveillance programs since 9-11.

Cable news channels are covering the hearings.

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David Maschke

11 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

NSA/GOV officials on Cap Hill right now 11:22 EST, trying to explain the program(s) to lawmakers and how they'll safeguarding the privacy of Americans.

Also, somebody is supposed to detail at least 50 terror plots foiled by the surveillance programs since 9-11.

Cable news channels are covering the hearings.

I gotta listen in on this one, it should be funny.

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Doran Peck

11 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

NSA/GOV officials on Cap Hill right now 11:22 EST, trying to explain the program(s) to lawmakers and how they're safeguarding the privacy of Americans.

Also, somebody is supposed to detail at least 50 terror plots foiled by the surveillance programs since 9-11.

Cable news channels are covering the hearings.

well of course they're going to tell us they've spoiled terrorist plots.

This reminds me of that time when I was 8, my Dad said..."Did you take your brothers dollar and put it in your pocket?

me: "no"

Dad: "Well why don't you check your pockets"

me: (slide my hand in pocket and shuffle around) ..."nope, no dollars"

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Kay King 11 years ago

The numbers change - first it was "several" terrorist plots foiled, then "hundreds" and now "50". Four have been talked about and I don't see how the two I listened to relied on blanket surveillance of the public.

We had specific warning about the Boston bombers - and they weren't stopped. We had multiple red flag warnings about the military base shooter and he was not stopped - he was shouting about Allah but it was labeled workplace violence rather than terrorism.

There has to be a balance between protection and intrusion. "They" will give reasons and excuses - and "WE" must insist on restraint.
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TLTheLiberator

11 years ago

There'll be a significant portion of the population that is simply not going to believe them no matter what they say or do.

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Doran Peck 11 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

There'll be a significant portion of the population that is simply not going to believe them no matter what they say or do.

But you do right?
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- TLTheLiberator 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Doran Peck
  
  But you do right?
  
  I never said that.
  
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TLTheLiberator

11 years ago

Here come the Edward Snowden truthers - Salon.com

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Kay King 11 years ago

she has a “creeping concern”

I think she's just creepy. She expects people to look and act a certain way and if they don't she decides "there's something odd". The only odd thing may be her....

It's why I seem to keep heading to the middle on issues like this - when you veer off left or right, those people be crazy
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