Zimmermanwitness - wow!

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The woman on the phone with Martin when he encountered Zimmerman is a trip.

She is on the stand - with an attitude - and is admitting she lied over and over because "they didn't aks me that".

But -there was a nugget that kept me from changing the channel when I turned on the TV.

This woman was on the phone with Martin just before he was killed. She was not interviewed by police until 3 weeks or so later...and Martin's Mother was allowed to be in the interview room. When did family members start sitting in on witness interrogations?

So the witness says she didn't say exactly what Trayvon said over the phone because she wanted to clean it up for his Mother. Now she's saying she heard more "after the phone cut off".

The defense has got to be loving this witness.
  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    She had the nerve to cop an attitude with the cross-examiner.


    I wouldn't be surprised if the defense keeps her on the stand longer than Dennis Fong of Simpson trial fame which was 9 days. ( I think )


    But even Marsha Clarke said that the jury will probably not hold those 3-5 little white lies by the teenager against her - but we will see.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      But even Marsha Clarke said that the jury will probably not hold those 3-5 little white lies by the teenager against her - but we will see.
      Her attitude and the fact that she was caught in a few minor lies is significant. She doesn't understand that gravity of her testimony, and her attitude. She isn't helping.

      Jurors are human beings.. If they don't like her..the longer she is on the stand, the better for the defense. They may not consciously think their dislike for her is influencing them, but it changes the filter they see this case through.

      If the defense is smart, they will call her again just before closing arguments.

      Man, I really don't like to think of myself as biased, but she's very unlikable..and I don't even know her.

      Martin's Mother was allowed to be in the interview room?

      That's just wrong.

      Honestly, I thought this was going to be more of a Slam Dunk for the prosecution. Now, I'm having my doubts.
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      • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        Her attitude and the fact that she was caught in a few minor lies is significant. She doesn't understand that gravity of her testimony, and her attitude. She isn't helping.

        Jurors are human beings.. If they don't like her..the longer she is on the stand, the better for the defense. They may not consciously think their dislike for her is influencing them, but it changes the filter they see this case through.

        If the defense is smart, they will call her again just before closing arguments.

        Man, I really don't like to think of myself as biased, but she's very unlikable..and I don't even know her.

        Martin's Mother was allowed to be in the interview room?

        That's just wrong.

        Honestly, I thought this was going to be more of a Slam Dunk for the prosecution. Now, I'm having my doubts.

        Hardly anyone liked her attitude.

        Important Florida jury instructions... ( according to Lisa Bloom - daughter of Gloria Allred )


        ( something to the effect of )...


        ...If a witness is found to be untruthful in one part of their testimony the juror(s) can discount the rest of the witnesses' testimony.

        The questions for the jurors are...

        ... were the witnesses' lies material to the case or not?

        And can she be believed regarding her testimony about what Travon Martin allegedly said to her during their conversation that night?

        Only time will tell.

        All The Best!!

        TL
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          The defense is going very slowly and I think it's a deliberate way to get her to display that attitude even more.

          She is saying now that she didn't tell exactly what Trayvon said and thinking back over the media coverage at the time - it's interesting.

          MSNBC ran into trouble when they edited a recording to make Zimmerman sound racist. Now she says Trayvon said there was "some cracker" watching him from a car....and then she says "cracker" is not racist.

          We fuss about the education system in the OT - this woman is 19 - a senior in high school - and says she "can't read" cursive. That's shocking.
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          • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
            Listening to a few pundits who are saying the defense is going on way too long on the cross and she is coming across as a more sympathetic and believable witness.
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              Pundits love to pund. These are the same pundits who made a big deal of Zimmerman describing Martin as 'black' when he was asked by dispatcher. They showed old photos of Martin as a kid and portrayed him as "an innocent".

              Now we learn Martin used racist comments (racial profiling?) as part of his conversation on the phone.

              I think some may conclude she's lied too much to be believable. In that case, I think they would discount her as a witness and ignore her testimony.

              I don't think anyone except Sharpton will see her as "sympathetic".
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              • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                Of course you leave out the pundits from the other side. The ones who posted fake photos of a saggy pants Trayvon flipping the bird, or how Trayvon was called a wannabe ganster for wearing a hoodie, or the idea that he was a drug dealer, etc... Yep. You forgot to mention those pundits. Wonder why? I'm sure it isn't because you are politically biased because you always say that you aren't and that settles that.

                Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                Pundits love to pund. These are the same pundits who made a big deal of Zimmerman describing Martin as 'black' when he was asked by dispatcher. They showed old photos of Martin as a kid and portrayed him as "an innocent".
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                • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                  Sorry, Tim, but that sounds petulant. I don't like pundits on both sides - but I think promoting this from a racial standpoint and insisting on presenting a Hispanic as "white" to fit the story - is inexcusable.

                  A news story should be presented as news - not as "here's how we spin it". That doesn't seem to happen these days.

                  I think Zimmerman should be punished - I don't think he's a great guy. I don't think Martin was a total innocent either. Doesn't matter - someone died.
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                  • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                    You should know petulance pretty well among other things. You are biased Kay. Pure and simple. It's very obvious. How about the smearing of Trayvon which you continued without much thought obviously? How about talking about the pundits who were wrong from the other side? Good grief! :/
                    Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                    Sorry, Tim, but that sounds petulant. I don't like pundits on both sides - but I think promoting this from a racial standpoint and insisting on presenting a Hispanic as "white" to fit the story - is inexcusable.

                    A news story should be presented as news - not as "here's how we spin it". That doesn't seem to happen these days.

                    I think Zimmerman should be punished - I don't think he's a great guy. I don't think Martin was a total innocent either. Doesn't matter - someone died.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
                      Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                      You should know petulance pretty well among other things. You are biased Kay. Pure and simple. It's very obvious. How about the smearing of Trayvon which you continued without much thought obviously? How about talking about the pundits who were wrong from the other side? Good grief! :/
                      No offense, Tim, but you seem a little biased too. So do a few others in this thread (on both sides). At least, it appears that way to me as someone who hasn't paid much attention to the case.
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                      • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                        I admit I can be biased on some issues Dennis. At least I do that. We are all biased to some extent. On this issue in this thread at least, I don't think I have been biased. I'm trying to point out someone who has been imo.

                        Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

                        No offense, Tim, but you seem a little biased too. So do a few others in this thread (on both sides). At least, it appears that way to me as someone who hasn't paid much attention to the case.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                        Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

                        No offense, Tim, but you seem a little biased too. So do a few others in this thread (on both sides). At least, it appears that way to me as someone who hasn't paid much attention to the case.
                        I was just about to chime in that Tim was flirting awfully close to an Ad hominem argument with that last post, much closer than I've ever seen. Pretty out of character for someone I've always considered intelligent, cordial and restrained.
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                        • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                          Yes, and it was in response to the same. I think you will notice. My bad, on my part for responding to her ad hominem with one of my own. :/

                          Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                          I was just about to chime in that Tim was flirting awfully close to an Ad hominem argument with that last post, much closer than I've ever seen. Pretty out of character for someone I've always considered intelligent, cordial and restrained.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                            Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                            Yes, and it was in response to the same. I think you will notice. My bad, on my part for responding to her ad hominem with one of my own. :/
                            Tim, I'm not here to make Kay's case for her, but she stated your response was petulant and further supported herself. You directly attacked Kay. There is a difference.

                            Don't mind me. I was simply offering a check before folks got out of hand. I respect you and don't want to see you get a vacation for comments made on tilt.
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                            • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                              By saying she was biased? Is that some huge "attack"? She has accused me of the same. :/
                              Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                              You directly attacked Kay.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                      Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                      You should know petulance pretty well among other things.
                      That seems like a blatant attack to me, Tim. What are you insinuating when you say, "...among other things." Certainly nothing pleasant. The flavor of the entire sentence is a personal attack.

                      I was just surprised by the level of snark. Unlike other people here, you typically have the ability to hold an opposing viewpoint without making things personal.

                      But, whatever. The floor is yours.
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                      • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                        Dan. I agree that I responded to her ad hominem "attack" with one of my own and as I said "my bad". I shouldn't have done that. :/ Attack is a very harsh word though. ha Very!
                        Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                        That seems like a blatant attack to me, Tim. What are you insinuating when you say, "...among other things." Certainly nothing pleasant. The flavor of the entire sentence is a personal attack.

                        I was just surprised by the level of snark. Unlike other people here, you typically have the ability to hold an opposing viewpoint without making things personal.

                        But, whatever. The floor is yours.
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            • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
              Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

              Listening to a few pundits who are saying the defense is going on way too long on the cross and she is coming across as a more sympathetic and believable witness.

              That's highly possible since the defense lawyer is a trained professional and the witness is clearly outclassed.

              I tuned in today and within 15 minutes the prosecutions objections to the defense "badgering the witness" was sustained at least 3-4 times by the judge and also mis-characterizing the witnesses' statements a few times also.


              So, there may be something there Tim - but we'll see.


              The defense must destroy her testimony/credibility if Mr. Z. is to be found not guilty.


              The key people involved are the jurors.

              IMHO the key question in the trial is ...

              Is it OK for a grown man to follow a teenager and somehow get into a confrontation with them and then shoot that person dead?

              We'll see what this Florida jury says in the end.
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              • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post


                The key people involved are the jurors.

                IMHO the key question in the trial is ...

                Is it OK for a grown man to follow a teenager and somehow get into a confrontation with them and then shoot that person dead?

                We'll see what this Florida jury says in the end.
                I understand why you say that.
                But the key question to me is "Who is better at making the jury like them?"

                We want to think that people are reasonable, that the facts really decide a case. But people are just bundles of emotional energy that fight anything that disagrees with their world view. All of us.

                My thought going in was that the guy was probably guilty. Maybe he'll be found guilty, maybe not. But whoever has the smartest lawyer will probably win. This case has no eye witnesses, So "who is going to tell the better story" is more what I think will decide this case.
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                • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                  I understand why you say that.
                  But the key question to me is "Who is better at making the jury like them?"

                  We want to think that people are reasonable, that the facts really decide a case. But people are just bundles of emotional energy that fight anything that disagrees with their world view. All of us.

                  My thought going in was that the guy was probably guilty. Maybe he'll be found guilty, maybe not. But whoever has the smartest lawyer will probably win. This case has no eye witnesses, So "who is going to tell the better story" is more what I think will decide this case.
                  Today, that female witness was a whole lot more cordial and much less combative.

                  The defense attorney even asked her if someone had talked to her about her attitude.

                  ( I never found out how she answered that question )

                  So the like/no-like that witness issue may be mute and the trial will revolve around as you say who's story(s) sound more believable.


                  TL
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              • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                After Trayvon's brother posted Trayvon's school suspension at the time he died was due to attacking a bus driver....the "innocent teen" argument dissipated. It's time to stop arguing the racial issue or the age issue - and let the facts go where they may. It's sad that anyone had to die for something so stupid.

                I'll let the jury decide and hope people will accept their decision no matter which way they go.
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                • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                  It actually came out that he was suspended because of pot wasn't it? If I'm wrong please post an official link, not some right wing blog intent on smearing a young innocent victim, where the so called "attack" occurred. I'm sure it must be out there some where, otherwise you wouldn't continue a smear. Would you?

                  As his mother said "“They killed my son, now they’re trying to kill his reputation.” It's disgusting really.

                  Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                  After Trayvon's brother posted Trayvon's school suspension at the time he died was due to attacking a bus driver....the "innocent teen" argument dissipated.
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              • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
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                • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                  Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

                  I hope that pedophile racist scumbag gets executed, but after what I've seen of Florida justice in past, he'll probably walk free.
                  And your basing that statement on what?
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      She had the nerve to cop an attitude with the cross-examiner.


      I wouldn't be surprised if the defense keeps her on the stand longer than Dennis Fong of Simpson trial fame which was 9 days. ( I think )


      But even Marsha Clarke said that the jury will probably not hold those 3-5 little white lies by the teenager against her - but we will see.
      But they are actually REQUIRED BY LAW to "hold those $^&* lies against her"! If there is a reasonable doubt that the defendant is guilty, they must acquit. Apparently, the prosecution is DEPENDING on this witness! Either you believe her, and KNOW she lied, or DON'T and consider it worthless. Seriously! She contradicted her testimony and cleansed things, and a reasonable person must either NOT believe what was there, which means she is worthless, and trying to use RACE to hurt the defendant, or believe what was there which means that she is doing this to hurt the defendant to protect any good memories that have developed for trevon,

      If I were the prosecutor, I would have tried to keep her existence out of the press from the beginning and tried to develop the case using some other evidence.

      That said, if they side with this STUPID witness' CURRENT "testimony", it won't be the first time such an injustice has been done.

      Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        The defense attorney even asked her if someone had talked to her about her attitude.

        ( I never found out how she answered that question )
        I wondered why he bothered to ask - the answer was clear as her attitude (though not great) was much improved.

        Someone coached her well - and I expect it wasn't an easy job.
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      • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
        Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

        But they are actually REQUIRED BY LAW to "hold those $^&* lies against her"! If there is a reasonable doubt that the defendant is guilty, they must acquit. Apparently, the prosecution is DEPENDING on this witness! Either you believe her, and KNOW she lied, or DON'T and consider it worthless. Seriously! She contradicted her testimony and cleansed things, and a reasonable person must either NOT believe what was there, which means she is worthless, and trying to use RACE to hurt the defendant, or believe what was there which means that she is doing this to hurt the defendant to protect any good memories that have developed for trevon,

        If I were the prosecutor, I would have tried to keep her existence out of the press from the beginning and tried to develop the case using some other evidence.

        That said, if they side with this STUPID witness' CURRENT "testimony", it won't be the first time such an injustice has been done.

        Steve
        The laws are different in many states regarding "misstatements" and false testimony of a witness and according to attorney Lisa Bloom (Gloria Allred's daughter),...

        ... in Florida, the jury CAN disregard any testimony of a witness if they deem a misstatement by the witness is in fact relevant to the case.

        The jury can also determine whether a misstatement by a witness is relevant to the case or not.

        All The Best!

        TL
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

          The laws are different in many states regarding "misstatements" and false testimony of a witness and according to attorney Lisa Bloom (Gloria Allred's daughter),...

          ... in Florida, the jury CAN disregard any testimony of a witness if they deem a misstatement by the witness is in fact relevant to the case.

          The jury can also determine whether a misstatement by a witness is relevant to the case or not.

          All The Best!

          TL
          The laws I am talking about are federal. They are to disregard them if the judge says to, in any state. And s/he is to do that if it is deemed that procedure has been breached. For whatever reason, that doesn't seem to cover perjury, though an objection could be raised procedurally on perjury and possibly lead to such an admonition. Of course, as lawyers like to say, you can't un-ring a bell, ALSO, a jurer won't be punished for disregarding that admonition.

          Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
            Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

            The laws I am talking about are federal. They are to disregard them if the judge says to, in any state. And s/he is to do that if it is deemed that procedure has been breached. For whatever reason, that doesn't seem to cover perjury, though an objection could be raised procedurally on perjury and possibly lead to such an admonition. Of course, as lawyers like to say, you can't un-ring a bell, ALSO, a jurer won't be punished for disregarding that admonition.

            Steve
            Great, the laws you're talking about are federal.

            And you believe they supersede state laws even in in non-federal trials, is that right??
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            • Profile picture of the author seasoned
              Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

              Great, the laws you're talking about are federal.

              And you believe they supersede state laws even in in non-federal trials, is that right??
              Where you are talking about a CRIMINAL trial, and procedure, YEAH. If things weren't controlled to some degree by the fed, WHY have miranda, trial by jury, pro bono lawyers, or even a trial at all?

              That said, in CIVIL trials, all rules might be thrown out the window! You don't necessarily need a JUDGE(in the legal sense), a courtroom, a jury, a pro bono lawyer, etc....

              Steve
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              • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                Where you are talking about a CRIMINAL trial, and procedure, YEAH. If things weren't controlled to some degree by the fed, WHY have miranda, trial by jury, pro bono lawyers, or even a trial at all?

                That said, in CIVIL trials, all rules might be thrown out the window! You don't necessarily need a JUDGE(in the legal sense), a courtroom, a jury, a pro bono lawyer, etc....

                Steve

                You're right about civil trials.

                They're a horse of a different color and the burden of proof is a lot less verses a criminal trial.
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                • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                  I just heard a bit of the fallout from this morning's witness - I'm not watching it today so it was talking head stuff.

                  Important to remember the story line was concocted by the media to suit their own ratings purposes and get attention. Now it's a scramble to discount facts and explain away witnesses that don't fit that concocted story line.
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              Another perspective of Rachel Jeantel:
              The articles are flying about Jeantel being misunderstood and begin with "whites won't like her". To me -that's as racist as it gets.

              My black friends don't like this woman, either. One said "she'd be outclassed in the sale aisle at WalMart" - and another said "she's uneducated because she didn't show up to learn."

              If you don't want a double standard in society - you have to stop using a double standard to excuse bad behavior. This woman was a poor witness with changing stories - and nothing more...or less...than that.
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              • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                The articles are flying about Jeantel being misunderstood and begin with "whites won't like her". To me -that's as racist as it gets.

                My black friends don't like this woman, either. One said "she'd be outclassed in the sale aisle at WalMart" - and another said "she's uneducated because she didn't show up to learn."

                If you don't want a double standard in society - you have to stop using a double standard to excuse bad behavior. This woman was a poor witness with changing stories - and nothing more...or less...than that.
                Yeah, give me a break! I thought Simpson was railroaded on many things, and he is BLACK! I have also been against many whites on trial, etc...

                what does RACE have to do with justice?

                And nobody dresses up to go to walmart, and you wouldn't here any real highbrow stuff either! As for education? The idea of school is SUPPOSED to be to get you to a certain baselevel, etc... HOPEFULLY, you don't figure that you have to learn NOTHING else.

                Steve
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                • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                  If I remember right didn't Zimmerman first call the cops or 911 and tell them an unknown person was walking around the complex and they told him not to follow him and to stay where he was?
                  I'm wondering if that will come up and how it will effect the outcome.
                  Also will it come out that he was alleged to be in the neighborhood watch and they are suppose to be unarmed?
                  I don't know if he shot Trevon in self-defense or not, but bottom line is if he followed the order from the police (or 911) there wouldn't even be a trial.
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                  • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                    I agree Thom. That point seems to be the most important one in this case.

                    By the way, George Zimmerman got caught in a lie also and because of it had to go back to jail. So, does that destroy all his credibility? It's likely he will be testifying from what I understand. I wonder how many discrepancies in his story will show up?

                    Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                    If I remember right didn't Zimmerman first call the cops or 911 and tell them an unknown person was walking around the complex and they told him not to follow him and to stay where he was?
                    I'm wondering if that will come up and how it will effect the outcome.
                    Also will it come out that he was alleged to be in the neighborhood watch and they are suppose to be unarmed?
                    I don't know if he shot Trevon in self-defense or not, but bottom line is if he followed the order from the police (or 911) there wouldn't even be a trial.
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                    • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                      Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                      I agree Thom. That point seems to be the most important one in this case.

                      By the way, George Zimmerman got caught in a lie also and because of it had to go back to jail. So, does that destroy all his credibility? It's likely he will be testifying from what I understand. I wonder how many discrepancies in his story will show up?

                      I'd love to see him on the stand although I hear it's not likely due to what are numerous perceived holes in his story.

                      But...

                      From everything I've heard about him ( such as standing up during the trial when folks were asked to ID him, BTW, Lisa Bloom said she's never seen such a thing )...


                      ( if properly provoked )


                      ... he may go Jack Nickelson.
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                  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                    Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                    If I remember right didn't Zimmerman first call the cops or 911 and tell them an unknown person was walking around the complex and they told him not to follow him and to stay where he was?
                    I'm wondering if that will come up and how it will effect the outcome.
                    Also will it come out that he was alleged to be in the neighborhood watch and they are suppose to be unarmed?
                    I don't know if he shot Trevon in self-defense or not, but bottom line is if he followed the order from the police (or 911) there wouldn't even be a trial.
                    That assumes a LOT! Assume he was told, and heard it. HOW do you know he didn't obey? Maybe trayvon escalated the issue.

                    Steve
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                    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                      That assumes a LOT! Assume he was told, and heard it. HOW do you know he didn't obey? Maybe trayvon escalated the issue.

                      Steve
                      How does that assume anything?
                      It's a fact he made the call. It's a fact he was told to not follow Trevor. It's a fact he followed him anyways.
                      The only assumption is on your end assuming those facts don't exist.
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                      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                        Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                        How does that assume anything?
                        It's a fact he made the call. It's a fact he was told to not follow Trevor. It's a fact he followed him anyways.
                        The only assumption is on your end assuming those facts don't exist.
                        How do you know he followed him for no reason, etc?
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                        • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                          Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                          How do you know he followed him for no reason, etc?
                          I didn't say one way or another if he had a reason for following him, I simply stated the facts as they where presented at the time of the incident.
                          The facts are he called the police (or 911) and was told not to follow Trevor. At that point he turned any further investigation over to the police for them to act on.
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                        • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
                          Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                          How do you know he followed him for no reason, etc?
                          Apart from his obvious and violent display of bad judgment, resulting in the death of an innocent man, I don't think George Zimmerman, a pervert who repeatedly molested a relative, should given any credibility at all:
                          http://www.tampabay.com/news/politic...ng-her/1240577
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                          • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                            Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

                            Apart from his obvious and violent display of bad judgment, resulting in the death of an innocent man, I don't think George Zimmerman, a pervert who repeatedly raped a relative, should given any credibility at all:
                            http://www.tampabay.com/news/politic...ng-her/1240577
                            I agree he showed serious bad judgment.
                            But the rest is based on one article about one person who alleged he fondled her. Nothing in that article said he raped her repeatedly.
                            I'm not condoning what he did to her IF he actually did it.
                            But I also don't condone labeling someone a pervert and rapist based on one news article that has never been proven or disproven. For all you know she could of easily made that up just to get even with him for not letting her do something she wanted to do like sneak out or drink under age.
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                            • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
                              Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                              I agree he showed serious bad judgment.
                              But the rest is based on one article about one person who alleged he fondled her. Nothing in that article said he raped her repeatedly.
                              I'm not condoning what he did to her IF he actually did it.
                              But I also don't condone labeling someone a pervert and rapist based on one news article that has never been proven or disproven. For all you know she could of easily made that up just to get even with him for not letting her do something she wanted to do like sneak out or drink under age.
                              It doesn't really matter what we write here. This thread is going to get deleted. You know it. I know it. (homage to Ross Perot)

                              Rape does seem to be the wrong word, my apologies:
                              Woman Says George Zimmerman Molested Her For More Than A Decade
                              "The woman, identified in various reports and in taped interviews with investigators as witness 9, said that from the age of six to 19 Zimmerman repeatedly fondled her, at times penetrating her vagina with his finger."
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                              • Profile picture of the author KimW
                                Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

                                It doesn't really matter what we write here. This thread is going to get deleted. You know it. I know it. (homage to Ross Perot)

                                Rape does seem to be the wrong word, my apologies:
                                Woman Says George Zimmerman Molested Her For More Than A Decade
                                "The woman, identified in various reports and in taped interviews with investigators as witness 9, said that from the age of six to 19 Zimmerman repeatedly fondled her, at times penetrating her vagina with his finger."
                                It may,it may not.The other thread about this case did not,and it was much more heated than this one is.
                                For the most part I am just being a watching bystander as I already know where most of the regulars stand on this.
                                I may join in at some point,but so far am not inclined as I am not seeing much new yet.
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                                • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
                                  Originally Posted by KimW View Post

                                  It may,it may not.The other thread about this case did not,and it was much more heated than this one is.
                                  Oh, whoops.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                                    Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                                    I just read a post that says exactly my point. Sadly, due to the nature of the site, I should not link there, so I will just show the whole post here:



                                    Steve
                                    So we're to ignore all ballistic evidence and even the fact that Zimmerman says he shot him (in self-defense) and go by biblical law that says you most have two witnesses? Basically that's what that guy is saying. Weather Travor was beating on him or not, one simple fact remains. There would not of been a confrontation if he listened to the police and didn't follow him. The result of his decision not to listen to the police shows serious bad judgment which resulted in a life being lost. He is responsible for his actions, period.
                                    Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

                                    Rape does seem to be the wrong word, my apologies:
                                    Woman Says George Zimmerman Molested Her For More Than A Decade
                                    "The woman, identified in various reports and in taped interviews with investigators as witness 9, said that from the age of six to 19 Zimmerman repeatedly fondled her, at times penetrating her vagina with his finger."
                                    I still wouldn't judge someone just because someone else says something that hasn't been verified. Give her and her mother a lie detector test and if they both pass, it's a different story.
                                    I'm a little touchy about this kind of thing. Twice in the past I've had females threaten to accuse me of rape if I didn't give into their demands. I had never so much as held hands with either of them. I told them both to do it.
                                    This could be the same. If a lie detector test shows he did molest her then stick him in a block with guys who have daughters and tell them he's a child molester.
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                                    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                      Everyone on this thread is looking at roughly the same testimony...the same evidence.

                                      I'm assuming that we all think that our comments are reasonable and unbiased.

                                      But already we are in two camps. Already most of us have made up our minds.

                                      This is why these trials are so seldom decided on the evidence. Emotions, prejudices, preconceptions, "liking" a witness, "not liking" an attorney.....
                                      are how these things are decided.

                                      How a witness dresses, the accent they use, whether they "look guilty" or not....

                                      The show isn't so much in the courtroom, for me...it's in the media....and here.

                                      By the way, I'm including myself in this. Sometimes I catch myself, sometimes no.
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                                      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                                        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                        Everyone on this thread is looking at roughly the same testimony...the same evidence.

                                        I'm assuming that we all think that our comments are reasonable and unbiased.

                                        But already we are in two camps. Already most of us have made up our minds.

                                        This is why these trials are so seldom decided on the evidence. Emotions, prejudices, preconceptions, "liking" a witness, "not liking" an attorney.....
                                        are how these things are decided.

                                        How a witness dresses, the accent they use, whether they "look guilty" or not....

                                        The show isn't so much in the courtroom, for me...it's in the media....and here.
                                        I've made up my mind of guilty, based on the point Thom has brought up. In my mind, you can't claim self defense when you persue/follow someone. I believe Zimmerman had admitted that he followed and killed Martin, so Teve's requirement of two witnesses is N/A.

                                        Unless there's a law or some facts I am unaware of, I'm sticking to my opinion of guilt. And from my understanding, even the "stand my ground" law doesn't apply to following someone, and it shouldn't.

                                        I'll take it farther, if Zimmerman did follow Martin, then it was Martin acting in self-defense and "standing his ground".


                                        However, I haven't made up my mind what Zimmerman is "guilty" of. Is it First Degree murder? Manslaughter? Something else? Often, guilty/not guility is the easy part of the trial. Deciding what the person is guilty of is the bigger problem.
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                                        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                          Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                                          I've made up my mind of guilty, based on the point Thom has brought up. In my mind, you can't claim self defense when you persue/follow someone. I believe Zimmerman had admitted that he followed and killed Martin, so Teve's requirement of two witnesses is N/A.

                                          Unless there's a law or some facts I am unaware of, I'm sticking to my opinion of guilt. And from my understanding, even the "stand my ground" law doesn't apply to following someone, and it shouldn't.

                                          I'll take it farther, if Zimmerman did follow Martin, then it was Martin acting in self-defense and "standing his ground".


                                          However, I haven't made up my mind what Zimmerman is "guilty" of. Is it First Degree murder? Manslaughter? Something else? Often, guilty/not guility is the easy part of the trial. Deciding what the person is guilty of is the bigger problem.
                                          Kurt; And why do you think a nearly equal number of people are convinced that he is not guilty? I'm being sincere.

                                          By the way, can the jury find him guilty of something else? I thought he would either be guilty or not guilty of Second Degree Murder. Am I wrong? (I may well be)
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                                          • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                                            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                            Kurt; And why do you think a nearly equal number of people are convinced that he is not guilty? I'm being sincere.
                                            Because they either don't understand or don't accept the idea of persuing/following someone vs. retreating and/or standing your ground. There may also be some that are "pro vigilante".

                                            To me, this is the entire essence of the case. But even with stand your ground, you can't persue someone. And if you do, you are the aggressor.

                                            "Stand your ground" is a fairly new concept, as far as I know. It was generally accepted that you needed to "retreat" or do everything reasonable to avoid a conflict until "stand your ground". But neither defense allows you to persue a person.


                                            By the way, can the jury find him guilty of something else? I thought he would either be guilty or not guilty of Second Degree Murder. Am I wrong? (I may well be)
                                            I don't know either.
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                                            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                              Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                                              Because they either don't understand or don't accept the idea of persuing/following someone vs. retreating and/or standing your ground. There may also be some that are "pro vigilante".

                                              To me, this is the entire essence of the case. But even with stand your ground, you can't persue someone. And if you do, you are the aggressor.

                                              "Stand your ground" is a fairly new concept, as far as I know. It was generally accepted that you needed to "retreat" or do everything reasonable to avoid a conflict until "stand your ground". But neither defense allows you to persue a person.


                                              I don't know either.
                                              I think it would be much easier to get a conviction if the charge was Manslaughter. If I was on the jury, and it was second degree murder? I would have to be damn sure, and I'm not. My first impression...my opinion...is not enough to destroy a mans life. I must be sure. And I don't know if that's possible in this case.
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                                              • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                                                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                                I think it would be much easier to get a conviction if the charge was Manslaughter. If I was on the jury, and it was second degree murder? I would have to be damn sure, and I'm not. My first impression...my opinion...is not enough to destroy a mans life. I must be sure. And I don't know if that's possible in this case.
                                                Interesting thought process, Claude.

                                                Do you really believe that you, as a juror, could destroy a man's life? Isn't it more like the man's actions would be what destroyed his life? :confused:

                                                Terra
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                                                • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                                  Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                                                  Interesting thought process, Claude.

                                                  Do you really believe that you, as a juror, could destroy a man's life? Isn't it more like the man's actions would be what destroyed his life? :confused:

                                                  Terra
                                                  Terra; Your question is asked as if he is absolutely definitely guilty...and the question is "Is he responsible for his own actions?". Am I right?

                                                  Yes, I believe that a guilty verdict will destroy Zimmerman's life.
                                                  And I would have to be absolutely certain that he deserved a Guilty verdict before I gave it. I can't declare someone guilty just because I don't like him, or I think he's a sleazeball, or I think he's guilty of other charges.

                                                  A man's actions would have destroyed his life...if he is guilty of the charge of second degree murder.


                                                  Again, I think a charge of Manslaughter would be much easier to get a conviction on. He's almost admitted to it.
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                                                  • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                                                    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                                    Terra; Your question is asked as if he is absolutely definitely guilty...and the question is "Is he responsible for his own actions?". Am I right?

                                                    Yes, I believe that a guilty verdict will destroy Zimmerman's life.
                                                    And I would have to be absolutely certain that he deserved a Guilty verdict before I gave it. I can't declare someone guilty just because I don't like him, or I think he's a sleazeball, or I think he's guilty of other charges.

                                                    A man's actions would have destroyed his life...if he is guilty of the charge of second degree murder.
                                                    Well yes, I suppose that is the nitty gritty of the thing, being responsible for one's own actions.

                                                    Here's the way I look at it. He had a gun, he pulled the trigger, someone died.

                                                    Just the facts that he himself has admitted to. All of the other circumstances, reasons, thoughts, excuses, whatever, aside. He made a choice to pull the trigger and could have just as easily chose not to do so.

                                                    I believe regardless of the jury's decision, the man has destroyed his life with that action. If he is found guilty, his life is destroyed for obvious reasons. If he is found not guilty, his life is still destroyed on many fronts. The press he has already received and the knowing that your actions were responsible for taking another life being the two most prevalent.

                                                    I know that if someone darted in front of me while driving and there was honestly no way to avoid hitting them with my vehicle and that person died, I would have a very difficult time dealing with that in my life. Even though it was a complete accident with nothing I could have done to prevent it, in many aspects, my life would be ruined. I don't know how I could deal with that. It seems that incident would haunt me for the rest of my life both in my waking and sleeping hours.

                                                    Do you see where I'm coming from?

                                                    Terra
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                                                    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                                      Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                                                      Well yes, I suppose that is the nitty gritty of the thing, being responsible for one's own actions.

                                                      Here's the way I look at it. He had a gun, he pulled the trigger, someone died.

                                                      Just the facts that he himself has admitted to. All of the other circumstances, reasons, thoughts, excuses, whatever, aside. He made a choice to pull the trigger and could have just as easily chose not to do so.

                                                      I know that if someone darted in front of me while driving and there was honestly no way to avoid hitting them with my vehicle and that person died, I would have a very difficult time dealing with that in my life. Even though it was a complete accident with nothing I could have done to prevent it, in many aspects, my life would be ruined. I don't know how I could deal with that. It seems that incident would haunt me for the rest of my life both in my waking and sleeping hours.

                                                      Do you see where I'm coming from?


                                                      Terra
                                                      Terra; Of course I do. Any decent person would haunted by causing the death of an innocent.

                                                      Just based on the what Zimmerman told the police, I think he's guilty of manslaughter. In fact, I wonder why they didn't offer him that plea.

                                                      He may well truly be guilty of second degree murder. But that's a different charge. And again, I would need to be sure before sending a person to prison for life.

                                                      My guess is that Zimmerman confronted Martin, Martin had enough, and started beating Zimmerman. There is evidence to support that Zimmerman was on the bottom (minor head wounds on the back of the head), Zimmerman got scared, and shot Martin.

                                                      If that is true (A BIG "If") That's nearly enough to convict..meaning Zimmerman could be thought of as guilty of second degree murder, based on that scenario.

                                                      Another scenario is that Zimmerman attacked Martin, unprovoked. I think that's unlikely, but possible.

                                                      Another scenario is that there was no intention on Zimmerman's part to harm Martin...an argument ensued, escalated, both exchanged blows, and Martin got shot. Is that second degree murder?

                                                      My thought is that if Zimmerman goes to Prison, he'll be killed.
                                                      To send a man to his death, I would have to be very very sure.

                                                      And I'm not.
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                                                      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                                                        Tim - we can agree to disagree but I prefer not to make it personal. I'm not sure, either, what "and other things" refers to...and don't really care.

                                                        The 10 day suspension from school for Martin was curious when it was found that length of suspension is given for a greater offense than "being in the wrong place" as it was initially described.

                                                        Trayvon's brother's Twitter account and a later comment by his father indicated there was more to the suspension. It doesn't matter to the case itself. Zimmerman and Martin both had questionable things in their past - they were real people who became victim and criminal. Neither should be whitewashed - and neither should be demonized.

                                                        http://www.yourblackworld.net/2012/0...is-bus-driver/

                                                        http://www.examiner.com/article/tray...day-suspension
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                                                        • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                                                          From the link you posted Kay:

                                                          "Update: The Florida Sun-Sentinel reported today, March 26th, that Trayvon's ten day suspension was related to marijuana. This, and a cryptic comment by his father that was quoted in the above Kansas City Star article, suggest he was caught smoking marijuana on school property."

                                                          I mean, honestly, if a 16 or 17 year old kid "attacked" a school bus driver do you think the penalty for doing so would be a 10 day suspension?! No, in reality the penalty would likely be "assault". To say "Oh, it was a ten day suspension so it must have been something worse than being caught with pot" and then to suggest it was because of attacking someone is kind of silly.

                                                          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post


                                                          The 10 day suspension from school for Martin was curious when it was found that length of suspension is given for a greater offense than "being in the wrong place" as it was initially described.

                                                          Trayvon's brother's Twitter account and a later comment by his father indicated there was more to the suspension. It doesn't matter to the case itself. Zimmerman and Martin both had questionable things in their past - they were real people who became victim and criminal. Neither should be whitewashed - and neither should be demonized.

                                                          http://www.yourblackworld.net/2012/0...is-bus-driver/

                                                          http://www.examiner.com/article/tray...day-suspension
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                                                          • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                                                            Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                                                            From the link you posted Kay:

                                                            "Update: The Florida Sun-Sentinel reported today, March 26th, that Trayvon's ten day suspension was related to marijuana.

                                                            This, and a cryptic comment by his father that was quoted in the above Kansas City Star article, suggest he was caught smoking marijuana on school property."

                                                            I mean, honestly, if a 16 or 17 year old kid "attacked" a school bus driver do you think the penalty for doing so would be a 10 day suspension?!

                                                            No, in reality the penalty would likely be "assault".

                                                            To say "Oh, it was a ten day suspension so it must have been something worse than being caught with pot" and then to suggest it was because of attacking someone is kind of silly.

                                                            1: The thought that it's OK to do what Zimmerman did is repugnant.

                                                            And IMHO is should be that way with the vast majority of decent minded people.





                                                            2: Throwing up "Trayvon wasn't an innocent" so therefore bla, bla, bla is also repugnant in my eyes.


                                                            So why do some people keep bringing up Travon's "short comings"?

                                                            It's not like he was Billy the Kid.

                                                            So why???

                                                            IMHO, the smearing of Travon is one of the ugliest impulses to come out of this society in quite some time - in a society filled with ugly impulses from ugly people - but I'm not surprised by it one bit.



                                                            Since it seems like the charge related to Zimmerman revolves around whether he set out from the outset to find and kill someone may be hard to prove...

                                                            ... perhaps the state of Florida mis-charged him.


                                                            But he is surely guilty of starting a chain of events that culminated in the death of a person who was minding their own business, just going to the store and they ended up dead.


                                                            - It was a Sunday evening around 6:30 to 7:15, not Monday thru Friday 10am to 12pm. ( break-in hours )

                                                            - It was also raining.

                                                            - Z. was told to not go near Travon but he somehow managed to get near him anyway resulting in Travon's death.

                                                            - Zimmerman should be punished for what he did and his actions should be frowned upon by the vast majority of people in this society - no ans if or buts.

                                                            I've seriously got to wonder about the frame of mind and motivations of the people who...

                                                            ... don't frown upon what Zimmerman did and/or offer up the "Travon's no innocent" crap.


                                                            What's their motivation?


                                                            Many claim they want to see justice done and don't want Z. railroaded.


                                                            Fine, but are the smears on Travon necessary?


                                                            - Mr. Z. was also wrong bigtime in thinking that Travon didn't belong in the neighborhood because Travon's dad lived in the same complex as Mr. Z.

                                                            - Mr. Z. described Travon as "they" to the 911 operator.

                                                            Who are they?

                                                            - Mr. Z was told to stay away from Travon period and if he did, someone's son would still be alive today.

                                                            - Mr. Z. clearly wanted a confrontation with someone and got one and now someone who was only going to the store is now dead.

                                                            - Of course Travon wasn't a complete innocent but he wasn't even close to someone who had been in and out of juvenile hall or prisons all his life and committing a bevy of violent crimes either - no matter what the smear machine puts out there.

                                                            The motivation of people on the left and other decent minded people is...

                                                            ...we don't like the concept of people being stalked by a wannabe cop and then shot

                                                            dead...

                                                            - period.

                                                            What's with the smear campaign lead by the right-wing sites etc. ???

                                                            What do they have to gain by smearing Travon and getting people to justify Zimmerman's heinous actions?

                                                            Is it the gun lobby at work?

                                                            How about the stand your ground lobby?


                                                            How about the racist lobby going about their business trying to gin up racial animus.


                                                            - Whatever Travon said, it still does not justify what Zimmerman did.

                                                            - All of Mr. Z's so-called motivations for doing what he did does not justify his actions.



                                                            I'd like to understand why the character assassination by some people and the same group of people saying...



                                                            ...that it's quite OK for someone to stalk someone else and somehow get into a confrontation with them and then shoot them dead.



                                                            Folks in here can say whatever they will as a rebuttal to this post but I'm not going round and round with them over whether Mr. Z. was justified in his heinous actions or not.

                                                            Mr. Z. was wrong as a 3 dollar bill period and should be condemned by all decent people.

                                                            BTW...

                                                            ...some people should be ashamed of themselves for what they are doing but there are lots of people in this society that clearly have no shame.
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                                                      • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                                                        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                                        Terra; Of course I do. Any decent person would haunted by causing the death of an innocent.

                                                        Just based on the what Zimmerman told the police, I think he's guilty of manslaughter. In fact, I wonder why they didn't offer him that plea.

                                                        He may well truly be guilty of second degree murder. But that's a different charge. And again, I would need to be sure before sending a person to prison for life.

                                                        My guess is that Zimmerman confronted Martin, Martin had enough, and started beating Zimmerman. There is evidence to support that Zimmerman was on the bottom (minor head wounds on the back of the head), Zimmerman got scared, and shot Martin.

                                                        If that is true (A BIG "If") That's nearly enough to convict..meaning Zimmerman could be thought of as guilty of second degree murder, based on that scenario.

                                                        Another scenario is that Zimmerman attacked Martin, unprovoked. I think that's unlikely, but possible.

                                                        Another scenario is that there was no intention on Zimmerman's part to harm Martin...an argument ensued, escalated, both exchanged blows, and Martin got shot. Is that second degree murder?

                                                        My thought is that if Zimmerman goes to Prison, he'll be killed.
                                                        To send a man to his death, I would have to be very very sure.

                                                        And I'm not.
                                                        Yes, it is, in my opinion. If George meant no harm, he would not have pulled the trigger! How can you aim a gun at another human being and pull the trigger all the while meaning no harm? :confused::confused:

                                                        Okay, let's say both threw punches, but only one had a gun. I don't see any equality or an even match there at all.

                                                        Terra
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                                                        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                                          Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                                                          Yes, it is, in my opinion. If Martin meant no harm, he would not have pulled the trigger! How can you aim a gun at another human being and pull the trigger all the while meaning no harm? :confused::confused:

                                                          Okay, let's say both threw punches, but only one had a gun. I don't see any equality or an even match there at all.

                                                          Terra
                                                          I understand.

                                                          "How can you aim a gun at another human being and pull the trigger all the while meaning no harm?"

                                                          You can't. I meant that Zimmerman may not have meant to take out the gun and shoot Martin at the beginning of the altercation, and did so when he was being beaten. That's just one scenario. One of many possible ones.
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                                                          • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                                                            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                                            I understand.

                                                            "How can you aim a gun at another human being and pull the trigger all the while meaning no harm?"

                                                            You can't. I meant that Zimmerman may not have meant to take out the gun and shoot Martin at the beginning of the altercation, and did so when he was being beaten. That's just one scenario. One of many possible ones.
                                                            Do you know for certain that his gun was put away and not already out when the altercation began?

                                                            Even so, whether it was already out or not, he had to think to use it, the safety had to be positioned off at some point, right? Otherwise the pulling of the trigger wouldn't have mattered. Thinking equals meditation in my opinion.

                                                            The only way I would vote for "manslaughter" was if the gun was holstered and it accidentally went off hitting Treyvon with that fatal shot.

                                                            As you have probably noticed, "pulled the trigger" is what I am focusing on, it was that act that decided the way this incident ended.

                                                            Terra
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                                                            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                                              Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                                                              Do you know for certain that his gun was put away and not already out when the altercation began?
                                                              Terra
                                                              Terra; No. I have no idea. Just like the rest of us.
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                                                              • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                                                                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                                                Terra; No. I have no idea. Just like the rest of us.
                                                                Okay, thanks.

                                                                I was wondering if I had missed something.

                                                                Terra
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                                                                • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                                                                  walking on grass rather than the sidewalk
                                                                  I didn't understand that, either. It wasn't a shortcut as the walk was there - but he was walking in the grass rather than on the walk.

                                                                  In the rain, most people would walk on the concrete sidewalk rather than in wet grass -- but the buildings may have provided some shelter from the rain. Especially true if they have overhung roofs common in the deep south.
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                                                            • Profile picture of the author socialentry
                                                              Banned
                                                              Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                                                              Do you know for certain that his gun was put away and not already out when the altercation began?

                                                              Even so, whether it was already out or not, he had to think to use it, the safety had to be positioned off at some point, right? Otherwise the pulling of the trigger wouldn't have mattered. Thinking equals meditation in my opinion.

                                                              The only way I would vote for "manslaughter" was if the gun was holstered and it accidentally went off hitting Treyvon with that fatal shot.

                                                              As you have probably noticed, "pulled the trigger" is what I am focusing on, it was that act that decided the way this incident ended.

                                                              Terra
                                                              the hispanic guy is a really crap gunman if he already had his gun out and somehow managed to get his head bashed in.
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                                                              • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                                                                Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

                                                                the hispanic guy is a really crap gunman if he already had his gun out and somehow managed to get his head bashed in.
                                                                Exaggerate much? His head bashed in? Really?

                                                                He had some minor abrasions on the back of it.

                                                                Terra
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                                                                • Profile picture of the author socialentry
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                                                                  Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                                                                  Exaggerate much? His head bashed in? Really?

                                                                  He had some minor abrasions on the back of it.

                                                                  Terra
                                                                  Yeah but how in the world do you get in a position where the other guy can ground and pound you if you have a pistol out already? :confused:
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                                                                  • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                                                                    Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

                                                                    Yeah but how in the world do you get in a position where the other guy can ground and pound you if you have a pistol out already? :confused:
                                                                    It really doesn't matter in the end. I guess you missed this part of my post even though you quoted it?

                                                                    Even so, whether it was already out or not, he had to think to use it, the safety had to be positioned off at some point, right? Otherwise the pulling of the trigger wouldn't have mattered. Thinking equals meditation in my opinion.
                                                                    Terra
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                                                                    • Profile picture of the author socialentry
                                                                      Banned
                                                                      I'm just asking a question. Whether Z gets convicted doesn't matter one iota to me.

                                                                      "hmmm, I'm going to kill that guy and I'm going to let him close the distance, then I'm going to let him mount me, then I'm going to let him punch me in the face several time then I'm going to shoot him "

                                                                      Z must not have been a really bright person if that was his plan of action.
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                                                                      • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                                                                        Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

                                                                        I'm just asking a question. Whether Z gets convicted doesn't matter one iota to me.

                                                                        "hmmm, I'm going to kill that guy and I'm going to let him close the distance, then I'm going to let him mount me, then I'm going to let him punch me in the face several time then I'm going to shoot him "

                                                                        Z must not have been a really bright person if that was his plan of action.
                                                                        Anyone who believes that would be foolish. But kudos on your dramatic flair.

                                                                        Terra
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                                                                        • Profile picture of the author socialentry
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                                                                          Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                                                                          Anyone who believes that would be foolish. But kudos on your dramatic flair.

                                                                          Terra
                                                                          But if my plan was to kill someone, why not just shoot the guy directly? :confused:

                                                                          I'm not saying anything except that Z was a particularly inept killer, do you disagree?
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                                                                          • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                                                                            Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

                                                                            But if my plan was to kill someone, why not just shoot the guy directly? :confused:
                                                                            He did shoot the guy directly, he admits that. Obviously he didn't plan to shoot him until later on in the whole incident rather than at the very beginning.

                                                                            Why did Zimmerman continue to follow Martin after the authorities told him not to?

                                                                            Terra
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                                                                            • Profile picture of the author socialentry
                                                                              Banned
                                                                              Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                                                                              He did shoot the guy directly, he admits that. Obviously he didn't plan to shoot him until later on in the whole incident rather than at the very beginning.
                                                                              Suppose you were a middle age fat balding hispanic guy and planning to kill martin...

                                                                              Would you choose to shoot martin, a much younger and presumably far more athletic person as soon as you see him or would you let him close the distance so he has a fair chance?

                                                                              Why did Zimmerman continue to follow Martin after the authorities told him not to?

                                                                              Terra
                                                                              I don't know. It's maybe the second time I read a story on the case as I'm not very interested in daytime TV.
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                                                                              • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                                                                                Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

                                                                                Suppose you were a middle age fat balding hispanic guy and planning to kill martin...

                                                                                Would you choose to shoot martin, a much younger and presumably far more athletic person as soon as you see him or would you let him close the distance so he has a fair chance?
                                                                                No, I would not "choose" to shoot another living human being at all, ever! I would like to think that I would have warned that I had a gun and if that didn't work, shoot a warning round upwards to ward him off.

                                                                                I did say "I would like to think that I" because truth be told it is difficult to know exactly what you would do if you aren't actually in that situation. There are many dynamics happening within one's body in situations like this that you cannot just imagine what it feels like and how your brain would work. It takes physical experiencing.

                                                                                Terra
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                                                                                • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                                                                                  You never know how you will react - and we can't explain how someone else "should have" reacted. That's the problem with a case like this - we try to justify and we ask questions from a logical perspective. Sometimes the answers don't exist in a way that can be proven.

                                                                                  Time after time in my life I've been calm in a crisis. I've been the person who didn't panic and who did what was needed. Over time I've accepted that about myself....and then it changed.

                                                                                  A couple years ago I had a situation that resulted in hysteria on my part. Something totally foreign to my personality and my nature....but that's what happened. My mind was racing, I couldn't think logically - I couldn't react logically.

                                                                                  Before that experience, I would have been questioning the "thought process" of Zimmerman more than I have in this case. Knowing how it feels for a situation to spin out of control in seconds or a minute - I understand how your mind can not process things fast enough and how you might react without thinking.
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                                                                            • Profile picture of the author simonjnh
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                                                                              Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                                                                              He did shoot the guy directly, he admits that. Obviously he didn't plan to shoot him until later on in the whole incident rather than at the very beginning.

                                                                              Why did Zimmerman continue to follow Martin after the authorities told him not to?

                                                                              Terra
                                                                              The question is a rather simple one - did Z have reason to believe he was in mortal danger from T. If so, he's innocent. If not, it is manslaughter or worse.
                                                                              So far, we have only ONE eyewitness other than Z.

                                                                              Here is Z's account:
                                                                              - He saw a suspicious individual.
                                                                              - He follow the suspicious character, called 911, and was told to stop following him.
                                                                              - He stopped following the character and returned to his vehicle.
                                                                              - On the way back to his car, T caught up to him and demanded to know what his problem was.
                                                                              (Note that this answers your question - Z DID stop following and returned to his vehicle after being told to stop. Whether he did or not, no one can know, but according to his account since the beginning and in the 911 call, he said that he stopped following T.)
                                                                              - T then closed in on Z, and punched him in the nose which began the 'fight'.
                                                                              - Z fell to the ground in the fight, his head hitting the curb.
                                                                              - T straddled him and proceeded to bash his head into the curb further, and began punching him.
                                                                              - T then noticed Z's gun, Z quickly pulled it out and shot T in the chest.

                                                                              The ONLY other eyewitness (brought on by prosecution mind you) has said that he saw 2 men fighting, saw Z on the ground with T sitting on top, punching and hitting him, he heard Z call for help. The man then returned back into his house and called 911 when he heard the gunshots.

                                                                              We have Z with cuts on the back of his head (not minor abrasions, he needed stitches on his head to close the gashes). Grass stains on the back of his clothing.
                                                                              Autopsy revealed that T DID have blooded knuckles consistent with violent punching described by Z. The gunshot wound showed a close up shot traveling upwards, consistent with what Z and the eyewitness describe as the position they were in.


                                                                              At this point, it seems like Z's account is close to the truth.


                                                                              This is not an issue of race at all. You could reverse the situation and have a latino guy in a predominantly black neighborhood get in a similar situation.

                                                                              I'm sorry MissTerra, but a VAST majority of what you have been saying has no bearance on evidence and is simply a 'story' regarding what 'might' have happened. When you analyze Z's account, the eyewitness report, the autopsy results, and other circumstantial evidence, it seems to be a fairly cut and dry case of self defense.

                                                                              Even if it wasn't so clear cut, there is beyond reasonable doubt on whether this was self defense or not. Either way Z should be acquitted for this crime. If he has any other past issues, he should be tried for those separately.
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                                                                              • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                                                                                Originally Posted by simonjnh View Post

                                                                                The question is a rather simple one - did Z have reason to believe he was in mortal danger from T. If so, he's innocent. If not, it is manslaughter or worse.
                                                                                So far, we have only ONE eyewitness other than Z.

                                                                                Here is Z's account:
                                                                                - He saw a suspicious individual.
                                                                                - He follow the suspicious character, called 911, and was told to stop following him.
                                                                                - He stopped following the character and returned to his vehicle.
                                                                                - On the way back to his car, T caught up to him and demanded to know what his problem was.
                                                                                (Note that this answers your question - Z DID stop following and returned to his vehicle after being told to stop. Whether he did or not, no one can know, but according to his account since the beginning and in the 911 call, he said that he stopped following T.)
                                                                                - T then closed in on Z, and punched him in the nose which began the 'fight'.
                                                                                - Z fell to the ground in the fight, his head hitting the curb.
                                                                                - T straddled him and proceeded to bash his head into the curb further, and began punching him.
                                                                                - T then noticed Z's gun, Z quickly pulled it out and shot T in the chest.

                                                                                The ONLY other eyewitness (brought on by prosecution mind you) has said that he saw 2 men fighting, saw Z on the ground with T sitting on top, punching and hitting him, he heard Z call for help. The man then returned back into his house and called 911 when he heard the gunshots.

                                                                                We have Z with cuts on the back of his head (not minor abrasions, he needed stitches on his head to close the gashes). Grass stains on the back of his clothing.
                                                                                Autopsy revealed that T DID have blooded knuckles consistent with violent punching described by Z. The gunshot wound showed a close up shot traveling upwards, consistent with what Z and the eyewitness describe as the position they were in.


                                                                                At this point, it seems like Z's account is close to the truth.


                                                                                This is not an issue of race at all. You could reverse the situation and have a latino guy in a predominantly black neighborhood get in a similar situation.

                                                                                I'm sorry MissTerra, but a VAST majority of what you have been saying has no bearance on evidence and is simply a 'story' regarding what 'might' have happened. When you analyze Z's account, the eyewitness report, the autopsy results, and other circumstantial evidence, it seems to be a fairly cut and dry case of self defense.

                                                                                Even if it wasn't so clear cut, there is beyond reasonable doubt on whether this was self defense or not. Either way Z should be acquitted for this crime. If he has any other past issues, he should be tried for those separately.
                                                                                Thank you for the blow by actions. I have not been following this case or watching on the television at all. If what you say is the truth, and there is that little but huge word "if", then it does sound like George was defending himself. That being said, Trayvon had no gun and pulling a gun and shooting him close range in the chest shows intent to kill. George could have very easily shot a warning shot straight up into the air. If he had done that, don't you think Trayvon would have stopped and hightailed it out of there?

                                                                                Let me be clear on another issue you raised. I never ever once said anything about race. Race has nothing to do with this at all! If the races were reversed, my opinions would be identical. And there is another key factor right there. Everything I have said is merely my opinion, and carries no weight in the outcome of this case.

                                                                                As a side note, my dad was involved in a neighborhood watch for years. He had the midnight watch and many evenings I rode with him to have some daddy/daughter time (even though I was an adult. ), so I know how neighborhood watches work.

                                                                                Terra
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                                                                                • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                                                                  Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                                                                                  That being said, Trayvon had no gun and pulling a gun and shooting him close range in the chest shows intent to kill. George could have very easily shot a warning shot straight up into the air. If he had done that, don't you think Trayvon would have stopped and hightailed it out of there?
                                                                                  Terra; You say Zimmerman could have shot a warning shot into the air. Of course he could. But he was (supposedly) being beaten badly at the time.

                                                                                  I abhor guns, and would never have one. But.....

                                                                                  If I had one in my pocket, and someone was beating me badly (on top of me and didn't show signs of stopping). They would be shot.

                                                                                  There is real evidence to support that Zimmerman was on the bottom. There is real evidence to support that he was getting beaten at the time.

                                                                                  When someone is beating you while on top of you..(not circling you like in a boxing match)...you won't fire a warning shot, and you would never announce that you have a gun. The other person's safety isn't what you are thinking about.

                                                                                  It's telling to me that more shots weren't fired.

                                                                                  Shooting someone while they are on top of you, beating you...is self defense.
                                                                                  I don't know for a fact that that's what happened. But the physical evidence supports it.

                                                                                  How do we know that Zimmerman stopped following Martin and was on his way back to his car? I haven't heard testimony about that yet (I haven't been glued to the case the last couple of days.)
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                                                                                  • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                                                                                    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                                                                    Terra; You say Zimmerman could have shot a warning shot into the air. Of course he could. But he was (supposedly) being beaten badly at the time.

                                                                                    I abhor guns, and would never have one. But.....

                                                                                    If I had one in my pocket, and someone was beating me badly (on top of me and didn't show signs of stopping). They would be shot.

                                                                                    There is real evidence to support that Zimmerman was on the bottom. There is real evidence to support that he was getting beaten at the time.

                                                                                    When someone is beating you while on top of you..(not circling you like in a boxing match)...you won't fire a warning shot, and you would never announce that you have a gun. The other person's safety isn't what you are thinking about.

                                                                                    It's telling to me that more shots weren't fired.

                                                                                    Shooting someone while they are on top of you, beating you...is self defense.
                                                                                    I don't know for a fact that that's what happened. But the physical evidence supports it.

                                                                                    How do we know that Zimmerman stopped following Martin and was on his way back to his car? I haven't heard testimony about that yet (I haven't been glued to the case the last couple of days.)
                                                                                    I don't really have an opinion or anything to say to that Claude. Believe it or not, I have never ever been in a knock down drag out, exchanging blows kind of altercation before in my life.

                                                                                    I've thrown a few well deserved slaps and a few swing kicks to the solar plexus before and ended some stupidity right in its tracks, but never have been involved in exchanging blows. I have no experience to draw upon, therefore.

                                                                                    Moving on, "It's telling to me that more shots weren't fired." Yeah, like the first one was fatal and did the trick.

                                                                                    Terra
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                                                                                  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                                                                                    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                                                                    Terra; You say Zimmerman could have shot a warning shot into the air. Of course he could. But he was (supposedly) being beaten badly at the time.
                                                                                    NO HE COULDN'T!

                                                                                    1. It is ILLEGAL!
                                                                                    2. It is DANGEROUS!
                                                                                    3. He could have gotten in trouble for hurting someone else!
                                                                                    4. He would NOT have had a clear shot! REMEMBER, he was near trevon, who was battering him!
                                                                                    5. Trevon could have taken it away, and killed him.
                                                                                    6. You have a MINUTE amount of time to react. Using it to try to scare away a person that has hurt you so bad is just DUMB!

                                                                                    I abhor guns, and would never have one. But.....

                                                                                    If I had one in my pocket, and someone was beating me badly (on top of me and didn't show signs of stopping). They would be shot.
                                                                                    EXACTLY!

                                                                                    There is real evidence to support that Zimmerman was on the bottom. There is real evidence to support that he was getting beaten at the time.

                                                                                    When someone is beating you while on top of you..(not circling you like in a boxing match)...you won't fire a warning shot, and you would never announce that you have a gun. The other person's safety isn't what you are thinking about.

                                                                                    It's telling to me that more shots weren't fired.

                                                                                    Shooting someone while they are on top of you, beating you...is self defense.
                                                                                    I don't know for a fact that that's what happened. But the physical evidence supports it.

                                                                                    How do we know that Zimmerman stopped following Martin and was on his way back to his car? I haven't heard testimony about that yet (I haven't been glued to the case the last couple of days.)
                                                                                    EXACTLY!

                                                                                    As for the shots, I never heard multiple ones were fired. There is some STUPID rule that basically DEMANDS that you kill a person with ONE shot! If you hit them, and they don't die, but are severely hurt in even some MINOR way, another shot could land you in jail for murder or A&B. If you hit them, or hurt them in even a MINOR way, like a minor loss of hearing, they may come back and sue the pants off you.

                                                                                    EVEN if you hit them in both legs and both arms, and even many places in the chest, they COULD still come after you. HECK, people have survived, and even kept on going, after shots through the BRAIN! It grows more unlikely, but it HAS happened.

                                                                                    That is ESPECIALLY likely if it is full metal jacket ammo, or a small caliber like a 22.

                                                                                    Steve
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                                                                                    • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                                                                                      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                                                                                      NO HE COULDN'T!

                                                                                      1. It is ILLEGAL!
                                                                                      2. It is DANGEROUS!
                                                                                      3. He could have gotten in trouble for hurting someone else!
                                                                                      4. He would NOT have had a clear shot! REMEMBER, he was near trevon, who was battering him!
                                                                                      5. Trevon could have taken it away, and killed him.
                                                                                      6. You have a MINUTE amount of time to react. Using it to try to scare away a person that has hurt you so bad is just DUMB!



                                                                                      EXACTLY!



                                                                                      EXACTLY!

                                                                                      As for the shots, I never heard multiple ones were fired. There is some STUPID rule that basically DEMANDS that you kill a person with ONE shot! If you hit them, and they don't die, but are severely hurt in even some MINOR way, another shot could land you in jail for murder or A&B. If you hit them, or hurt them in even a MINOR way, like a minor loss of hearing, they may come back and sue the pants off you.

                                                                                      EVEN if you hit them in both legs and both arms, and even many places in the chest, they COULD still come after you. HECK, people have survived, and even kept on going, after shots through the BRAIN! It grows more unlikely, but it HAS happened.

                                                                                      That is ESPECIALLY likely if it is full metal jacket ammo, or a small caliber like a 22.

                                                                                      Steve
                                                                                      Dear Steve,

                                                                                      If we ever meet in person and you are packing, please remind me to agree with everything you say and basically suck up to you, because right now, you are scaring the crap out of me.

                                                                                      Terra
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                                                                                      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                                                                                        Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                                                                                        Dear Steve,

                                                                                        If we ever meet in person and you are packing, please remind me to agree with everything you say and basically suck up to you, because right now, you are scaring the crap out of me.

                                                                                        Terra
                                                                                        I hope you realize I am a nice guy, never shot ANYONE, never was drunk, and never even HIT anyone out of anger. I'm just saying things as they are.

                                                                                        I forget why she did so, but my mother once called the police to ask about the legality of shooting a robber. The police officer said:

                                                                                        1. Make sure he is inside the home.
                                                                                        2. Shoot to kill.

                                                                                        You know the way US law is today! One guy had snakes in his shop. Two robbers broke in, ignoring the signs! One was bitten and near death. The OWNER was charged, People trying to break in fall through a skylight, and the homeowner is sued!

                                                                                        Steve
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                                                                                      • Profile picture of the author simonjnh
                                                                                        Banned
                                                                                        Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                                                                                        Dear Steve,

                                                                                        If we ever meet in person and you are packing, please remind me to agree with everything you say and basically suck up to you, because right now, you are scaring the crap out of me.

                                                                                        Terra
                                                                                        Terra, to be honest at this point it seems like you have it in for Zimmerman simply because he was the one with the gun. That is quite honestly a very bigoted and wrong line of reasoning.
                                                                                        If a 6'3 200lbs+ man (not a 13 year old kid) is sitting on top of you pummeling you, you don't pull out a gun and try to fire a warning shot. In fact, there's a real danger that your gun would get taken and used against you in such a scenario.
                                                                                        There's very little doubt that if the whole thing continued, Z would have ended up dead or crippled and what he did was not just justified, but the right thing to do. T was a thug, plain and simple. He had been caught stealing, doing drugs and was suspended from school for being caught AGAIN with tools to break in.
                                                                                        You are trying to defend this guy simply on the basis that he was black and Z had the gun. What does Z having a gun have to do with it? In fact, this is a primary example of exactly why people should be free to arm themselves and defend as needed.
                                                                                        Lord forbid but should a 200lbs+ man attack you viciously, Terra. But in such a situation, I would hope you'd bust out a pink revolver and eliminate the creep.
                                                                                        This is the CLEAREST case of self-defense you can have. The cops reviewed it and let the guy go. Sharpton, Jackson, Obama et al got involved and made this a race thing assuming Zimmerman was white and they could get some mileage out of this. All this has done is ruined Z's life, his family's life, and tried to provide cover for T who would've likely victimized other people in the future.
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                                                                                        • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                                                                                          Originally Posted by simonjnh View Post

                                                                                          Terra, to be honest at this point it seems like you have it in for Zimmerman simply because he was the one with the gun. That is quite honestly a very bigoted and wrong line of reasoning.
                                                                                          If a 6'3 200lbs+ man (not a 13 year old kid) is sitting on top of you pummeling you, you don't pull out a gun and try to fire a warning shot. In fact, there's a real danger that your gun would get taken and used against you in such a scenario.
                                                                                          There's very little doubt that if the whole thing continued, Z would have ended up dead or crippled and what he did was not just justified, but the right thing to do. T was a thug, plain and simple. He had been caught stealing, doing drugs and was suspended from school for being caught AGAIN with tools to break in.
                                                                                          You are trying to defend this guy simply on the basis that he was black and Z had the gun. What does Z having a gun have to do with it? In fact, this is a primary example of exactly why people should be free to arm themselves and defend as needed.
                                                                                          Lord forbid but should a 200lbs+ man attack you viciously, Terra. But in such a situation, I would hope you'd bust out a pink revolver and eliminate the creep.
                                                                                          This is the CLEAREST case of self-defense you can have. The cops reviewed it and let the guy go. Sharpton, Jackson, Obama et al got involved and made this a race thing assuming Zimmerman was white and they could get some mileage out of this. All this has done is ruined Z's life, his family's life, and tried to provide cover for T who would've likely victimized other people in the future.
                                                                                          Wow! That is the first time I have ever been referred to as a bigot and I'm not quite sure how I feel about it, lol!

                                                                                          Let me state one more time for the record, I am not taking race into consideration at all! If the roles were reversed, my opinion would stay the same.

                                                                                          Yeah, I guess I have a problem with people taking other people's lives, period. I consider human lives to be sacred, so shoot me! Whoops, poor choice of old cliches there. :p

                                                                                          Anyway, I'm sure no jury selection attorney would select me for a shooting case and I'm fine with that.

                                                                                          By the way, I do own quite a few guns, I just don't carry. I don't think I could live with myself if I took another life regardless of the situation. I have witnessed people die more times than I'd like to remember and have been haunted with nightmares afterward for years.

                                                                                          Everything I have said is only my opinion by the way, and will have no bearing on the case, so please everyone, don't get your panties all up in a bunch over what I say. At the end of the day, it all doesn't really matter that much now, does it?

                                                                                          Terra
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                                                                                          • Profile picture of the author simonjnh
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                                                                                            Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                                                                                            Wow! That is the first time I have ever been referred to as a bigot and I'm not quite sure how I feel about it, lol!

                                                                                            Let me state one more time for the record, I am not taking race into consideration at all! If the roles were reversed, my opinion would stay the same.

                                                                                            Yeah, I guess I have a problem with people taking other people's lives, period. I consider human lives to be sacred, so shoot me! Whoops, poor choice of old cliches there. :p

                                                                                            Anyway, I'm sure no jury selection attorney would select me for a shooting case and I'm fine with that.

                                                                                            By the way, I do own quite a few guns, I just don't carry. I don't think I could live with myself if I took another life regardless of the situation. I have witnessed people die more times than I'd like to remember and have been haunted with nightmares afterward for years.

                                                                                            Everything I have said is only my opinion by the way, and will have no bearing on the case, so please everyone, don't get your panties all up in a bunch over what I say. At the end of the day, it all doesn't really matter that much now, does it?

                                                                                            Terra
                                                                                            Hi Terra, I did not call you a bigot. I specifically stated that 'the line of reasoning that holds the gun owner guilty regardless of evidence is bigoted.'

                                                                                            I think it is indeed flawed reasoning to hold Z responsible in this instance just because he had a gun. There are almost 90million gun owners in US alone. You're insuniating that in case of an altercation those 90million will be guilty regardless of it they were the ones attacked first.

                                                                                            I have a big problem with people dying too. BUT, I have a FAR bigger problem with innocents dying at hands of thugs and looters. T was a thug who attacked someone else. If Z didn't shoot him, Z would be the one dead or crippled. I have a bigger problem with evil people breaking into a families house and raping/murdering children. I'd much rather that everyone be equipped and trained to use a gun and eliminate these low lives when such an incident happens.
                                                                                            In the ideal world no one would need guns. We don't live in the ideal world. Thugs and evil men are facts of life and T was well on his way into turning into a A-class thug. His being killed doesn't sadden me near as much as the witch-hunt against Z does. All this man did was defend himself against a violent delinquent and he is being labeled guilty simply because T was black or because Z had a gun.
                                                                                            That type of a judgement is indeed bigoted. And while you are not a 'bigot', as in your character is not that of a bigot, your reasoning on this point is indeed defined as bigotry.
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                                                                                            • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                                                                                              Originally Posted by simonjnh View Post

                                                                                              Hi Terra, I did not call you a bigot. I specifically stated that 'the line of reasoning that holds the gun owner guilty regardless of evidence is bigoted.'

                                                                                              I think it is indeed flawed reasoning to hold Z responsible in this instance just because he had a gun. There are almost 90million gun owners in US alone. You're insuniating that in case of an altercation those 90million will be guilty regardless of it they were the ones attacked first.

                                                                                              I have a big problem with people dying too. BUT, I have a FAR bigger problem with innocents dying at hands of thugs and looters. T was a thug who attacked someone else. If Z didn't shoot him, Z would be the one dead or crippled. I have a bigger problem with evil people breaking into a families house and raping/murdering children. I'd much rather that everyone be equipped and trained to use a gun and eliminate these low lives when such an incident happens.
                                                                                              In the ideal world no one would need guns. We don't live in the ideal world. Thugs and evil men are facts of life and T was well on his way into turning into a A-class thug. His being killed doesn't sadden me near as much as the witch-hunt against Z does. All this man did was defend himself against a violent delinquent and he is being labeled guilty simply because T was black or because Z had a gun.
                                                                                              That type of a judgement is indeed bigoted. And while you are not a 'bigot', as in your character is not that of a bigot, your reasoning on this point is indeed defined as bigotry.
                                                                                              Fair enough.

                                                                                              Do let me add that I do not hold the line of reasoning that anyone who fatally shoots another is guilty of murder regardless of the circumstances. That is just plain irresponsible and ludicrous!

                                                                                              I'm saying that in this case, I think that George could have handled things differently from the beginning, and things may not have escalated to the point they did. And even in handling things the way he did, he was at point blank range, he could have shot a nonfatal shot at an arm as opposed to the chest. Everyone who has a lick of sense knows that a pointblank shot to the chest, more times than not, will result in death. He could have chosen to maim Trayvon to make him stop but the fact that he aimed for the chest, to me anyway, shows intent to kill.

                                                                                              Another thing, I find it quite amusing that you choose to believe everything negative about Trayvon and not the negative reports about George such as the "wanna be cop" syndrome that has been reported along with all of the records of incidences he has been involved in.

                                                                                              I don't know for a fact that any of the negative media regarding either of them is true or not, and I don't really have to decide because I am not serving on the jury. I do find it ironic though that you label Trayvon as a thug over and over again and then say my opinion is bigoted.

                                                                                              Terra
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                                                                                              • Profile picture of the author simonjnh
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                                                                                                Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                                                                                                Fair enough.

                                                                                                Do let me add that I do not hold the line of reasoning that anyone who fatally shoots another is guilty of murder regardless of the circumstances. That is just plain irresponsible and ludicrous!

                                                                                                I'm saying that in this case, I think that George could have handled things differently from the beginning, and things may not have escalated to the point they did. And even in handling things the way he did, he was at point blank range, he could have shot a nonfatal shot at an arm as opposed to the chest. Everyone who has a lick of sense knows that a pointblank shot to the chest, more times than not, will result in death. He could have chosen to maim Trayvon to make him stop but the fact that he aimed for the chest, to me anyway, shows intent to kill.

                                                                                                Another thing, I find it quite amusing that you choose to believe everything negative about Trayvon and not the negative reports about George such as the "wanna be cop" syndrome that has been reported along with all of the records of incidences he has been involved in.

                                                                                                I don't know for a fact that any of the negative media regarding either of them is true or not, and I don't really have to decide because I am not serving on the jury. I do find it ironic though that you label Trayvon as a thug over and over again and then say my opinion is bigoted.

                                                                                                Terra
                                                                                                My apologies if my tone seemed too aggressive regarding what I said earlier.
                                                                                                Please note I'm very familiar that Z has his issues too - and am not defending him as a person, but rather his right to defend himself.

                                                                                                I really think though that you are not recognizing the situation for what it was. You have a 200+ man sitting on top of you, bashing your head against the curb and punching you in the face. You do NOT aim. You cannot aim. Z did nothing buy pull out the gun and shoot in the general direction in front of him. T was straddling him and 90% of the time a shot made in haste with no aim in that position will hit someone in the chest. Z did NOT aim and shoot hoping to kill T. He shot the only way he could hoping to stop his own death. He succeeded, but T died given the position they were in.

                                                                                                Now regarding his wanna-be cop stuff. He probably did have such inclinations. But I do not see him as having done anything wrong in this instance IF his account is accurate. If your neighborhood is being broken into, you are teh watch captain, the MOST responsible thing to do is to keep an eye on a suspicious person while calling 911. That's exactly what Z did. When told to stop, he did. He literally did not do anything wrong in this case. T could've continued his way but didn't. He backtracked found Z, and attacked his 'cracker ass'. The fact is that T was evil, and in the wrong.
                                                                                                Z might be stupid and a hitler wannabe, but IN THIS INSTANCE, his behavior was correct and not over the top at all.
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                                                                                                • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                                                                                                  Originally Posted by simonjnh View Post

                                                                                                  My apologies if my tone seemed too aggressive regarding what I said earlier.
                                                                                                  Please note I'm very familiar that Z has his issues too - and am not defending him as a person, but rather his right to defend himself.

                                                                                                  I really think though that you are not recognizing the situation for what it was. You have a 200+ man sitting on top of you, bashing your head against the curb and punching you in the face. You do NOT aim. You cannot aim. Z did nothing buy pull out the gun and shoot in the general direction in front of him. T was straddling him and 90% of the time a shot made in haste with no aim in that position will hit someone in the chest. Z did NOT aim and shoot hoping to kill T. He shot the only way he could hoping to stop his own death. He succeeded, but T died given the position they were in.

                                                                                                  Now regarding his wanna-be cop stuff. He probably did have such inclinations. But I do not see him as having done anything wrong in this instance IF his account is accurate. If your neighborhood is being broken into, you are teh watch captain, the MOST responsible thing to do is to keep an eye on a suspicious person while calling 911. That's exactly what Z did. When told to stop, he did. He literally did not do anything wrong in this case. T could've continued his way but didn't. He backtracked found Z, and attacked his 'cracker ass'. The fact is that T was evil, and in the wrong.
                                                                                                  Z might be stupid and a hitler wannabe, but IN THIS INSTANCE, his behavior was correct and not over the top at all.
                                                                                                  Wow! Your point by point description of what took place makes it sound like you were right there witnessing the whole thing and able to read both of their minds, then continue on listing what you claim are indisputable facts, but you and I both know that isn't the case, now is it?

                                                                                                  Terra
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                                                                                                  • Profile picture of the author simonjnh
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                                                                                                    Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                                                                                                    Wow! Your point by point description of what took place makes it sound like you were right there witnessing the whole thing and listing indisputable facts, but you and I both know that isn't the case, now is it?

                                                                                                    Terra
                                                                                                    No I wasn't there, but we have Z's account, the eyewitness report, the autopsy, the forensic evidence, Rachael's account (which matches Z's), and circumstantial evidence that all adds up to a VERY straightforward narrative and does not contradict anything that Z said.
                                                                                                    For you to disregard all of that and try to assume that something else happened shows that you are bringing in a bias.
                                                                                                    The cops first looked this over and they literally stated in their report "There is no evidence to suggest that Z's actions were anything but self-defense." Z was released immediately, with no charges at all.
                                                                                                    2 weeks later after Obama/Sharpton/Jackson started their usual race baiting, that's when charges were brought against Z by the special prosecutor.

                                                                                                    Really, you are the one ignoring the evidence and facts we have and trying to assume things based on nothing but a preconceived bias against Z and his gun use.
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                                                                                                    • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                                                                                                      Originally Posted by simonjnh View Post

                                                                                                      No I wasn't there, but we have Z's account, the eyewitness report, the autopsy, the forensic evidence, Rachael's account (which matches Z's), and circumstantial evidence that all adds up to a VERY straightforward narrative and does not contradict anything that Z said.
                                                                                                      For you to disregard all of that and try to assume that something else happened shows that you are bringing in a bias.
                                                                                                      The cops first looked this over and they literally stated in their report "There is no evidence to suggest that Z's actions were anything but self-defense." Z was released immediately, with no charges at all.
                                                                                                      2 weeks later after Obama/Sharpton/Jackson started their usual race baiting, that's when charges were brought against Z by the special prosecutor.

                                                                                                      Really, you are the one ignoring the evidence and facts we have and trying to assume things based on nothing but a preconceived bias against Z and his gun use.
                                                                                                      Okay, you are putting things on me that just aren't true. I have already said that I am not following this case, so therefore don't have all of what has been presented in the courts as evidence, but I've tired of debating with you.

                                                                                                      As a matter of fact, I'll be the bigger person and say, Okay, I'll be the whipping boy for you to take out your frustrations of people who may have a different opinion than yours, on. Whip away, I'm a big girl and can take it.

                                                                                                      But please take note that the target you place on my back is not to be the customary red and white, it should be two toned pink.

                                                                                                      Terra
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                                                                                                      • Profile picture of the author simonjnh
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                                                                                                        Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                                                                                                        Okay, you are putting things on me that just aren't true. I have already said that I am not following this case, so therefore don't have all of what has been presented in the courts as evidence, but I've tired of debating with you.

                                                                                                        As a matter of fact, I'll be the bigger person and say, Okay, I'll be the whipping boy for you to take out your frustrations of people who may have a different opinion than yours, on. Whip away, I'm a big girl and can take it.

                                                                                                        But please take note that the target you place on my back is not to be the customary red and white, it should be two toned pink.

                                                                                                        Terra
                                                                                                        I'm not sure where this all came from. If you don't have the facts and haven't followed the case then maybe it isn't wise to debate a point and say that Z is at fault? Kinda reminds me of certain someone who without the facts claimed 'the cops acted stupidly'...

                                                                                                        What frustrations did I take out on you? In one breath you claim you aren't following the case, in another you say that I've believed negative smears about T.

                                                                                                        When I presented the factual evidence and the specifics for the case, you claim I'm taking out frustrations on you...

                                                                                                        Maybe you should've just said 'oh I didn't know those were the facts and that's the evidence.'

                                                                                                        I have no interest in arguing without reason with anyone. This is a case that does bother me a lot because the fundamental issue at stake is whether or not I can defend myself and my family against an aggressor. If Z is at fault in this case, then it sets precedent for us losing even more responsibility and rights in name of political correctness.
                                                                                                        THAT is why I care about this case.

                                                                                                        I care about the case in part because of how NBC and MSNBC manipulated the news, made up utter lies, and edited clips to turn this into a race issue. They clearly did this in part hoping to get their politician of choice more sympathy and to further their agenda. If a so-called news organization can get away with lying so blatantly to the point that Z's life was threatened by the mobs, then certainly they can be used for much greater harm down the road.
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                                                                                                        • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                                                                                                          Originally Posted by simonjnh View Post

                                                                                                          I'm not sure where this all came from. If you don't have the facts and haven't followed the case then maybe it isn't wise to debate a point and say that Z is at fault? Kinda reminds me of certain someone who without the facts claimed 'the cops acted stupidly'...

                                                                                                          What frustrations did I take out on you? In one breath you claim you aren't following the case, in another you say that I've believed negative smears about T.

                                                                                                          When I presented the factual evidence and the specifics for the case, you claim I'm taking out frustrations on you...

                                                                                                          Maybe you should've just said 'oh I didn't know those were the facts and that's the evidence.'

                                                                                                          I have no interest in arguing without reason with anyone. This is a case that does bother me a lot because the fundamental issue at stake is whether or not I can defend myself and my family against an aggressor. If Z is at fault in this case, then it sets precedent for us losing even more responsibility and rights in name of political correctness.
                                                                                                          THAT is why I care about this case.

                                                                                                          I care about the case in part because of how NBC and MSNBC manipulated the news, made up utter lies, and edited clips to turn this into a race issue. They clearly did this in part hoping to get their politician of choice more sympathy and to further their agenda. If a so-called news organization can get away with lying so blatantly to the point that Z's life was threatened by the mobs, then certainly they can be used for much greater harm down the road.
                                                                                                          Okay, let's backtrack. I heard of the media reports when this event first happened. As a matter of fact we had quite a large discussion on it right here in the OT way back when. I was made aware of videos, reports, pdf's, etc. from that thread. The thread was eventually closed.

                                                                                                          What I meant about not following this case is that I haven't been watching the proceedings on the television since the trial began, and therefore have heard no testimony given for either side by witnesses or experts.

                                                                                                          For the record, I am also for the right to carry to protect in self defense for yourself and your family and am against the banning of guns. I don't think the Trayvon Martin case fits that spec.

                                                                                                          I have posted before on these issues and here are a couple of things I have said in the past in various threads...

                                                                                                          Banning guns won't stop murderers from murdering, they'll use their bare hands if they are evil and crazed enough, they'll use fire, they'll use pipe bombs or other explosives, or any other weapon they can devise!

                                                                                                          Banning guns will not take the evil out of twisted brains residing in diabolical heads or quench burning hatred that blackens their hearts. It's not the answer!

                                                                                                          But most importantly of all, banning guns won't bring those that lost their lives back! May God bless their souls and comfort their loved ones now and forever, Amen...
                                                                                                          and

                                                                                                          I come from a family that are avid gun collectors. We have guns that have been in the family dating back to the revolutionary war that have been passed down from generations. My father owned that collection and added to it.

                                                                                                          He was an avid sportsman as well. Way back when I was a little girl, he got laid off from GM and our family ate because he used some of those guns to put food on the table. We survived by eating venison, duck, rabbit, pheasant, goose, squirrel, quail, etc.

                                                                                                          Over and beyond that, he taught gun safety for the state and taught marksmanship at shooting ranges. I was taught to shoot and trust me, I am a crack shot! Do I like to shoot living things? Heck no!...
                                                                                                          See, we don't have different beliefs except in this particular case.

                                                                                                          I know that you don't agree with me, but from what I saw, read and heard earlier when this was breaking news, I think that George's actions brought all of his grief upon himself. He could have handled this whole thing differently by the book of neighborhood watches, not following and tracking Trayvon until the authorities arrived and caused a completely different outcome in this incident.

                                                                                                          Okay, I think I about covered everything.

                                                                                                          Terra
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                                                                                                • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                                                                                                  For someone accusing others of not knowing the facts you sure are wrong about things. For example: Trayvon weighed just 160 and Z weighed 185. Trayvon was 6' and weighed 160. Do you realize how thin that is? You are making up facts.
                                                                                                  Originally Posted by simonjnh View Post

                                                                                                  You have a 200+ man sitting on top of you, ...
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                                                                                                  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                                                                                                    Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                                                                                                    For someone accusing others of not knowing the facts you sure are wrong about things. For example: Trayvon weighed just 160 and Z weighed 200. Trayvon was 6' and weighed 160. Do you realize how thin that is? You are making up facts.
                                                                                                    Well, who is to say what the precise weight was. In any event, 160 pounds is significant and with youth, possible gang activity, etc.... and trying out various maves, he could make up for any weight disparity. It IS obvious that a fair amount of the 200pounds for zimmerman is fat, and who knows about his health? Zimmerman is at an age where he could be having back problems and the like.

                                                                                                    Steve
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                                                                                                    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                                                                                                      For example: Trayvon weighed just 160 and Z weighed 185. Trayvon was 6' and weighed 160. Do you realize how thin that is? You are making up facts.
                                                                                                      And you are leaving out facts - Zimmerman is 5'9". I'd think the height advantage would balance the weight advantage.

                                                                                                      I know exactly how thin it is - it's what my younger son weighed as a teen and young adult. Slender build with little weight in the mid section and no weight in the butt - long legs - strong arms and shoulders.

                                                                                                      Zimmerman has gained 110 lbs since the incident and weighs in now at just under 300 lbs. Yuck!
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                                                                                                      • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                                                                                                        Maybe he is trying to look less attractive in case he gets convicted and goes to prison.
                                                                                                        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post


                                                                                                        Zimmerman has gained 110 lbs since the incident and weighs in now at just under 300 lbs. Yuck!
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                                                                                                      • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
                                                                                                        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                                                                                                        And you are leaving out facts - Zimmerman is 5'9". I'd think the height advantage would balance the weight advantage.
                                                                                                        Only someone who never fought anybody ever ... would think that.
                                                                                                        I am talking a real fight ... not some, i am pissed at my brother fight.

                                                                                                        a real one, where you know if you don't ... you might not live.

                                                                                                        I got nothing about the case.
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                                                                                                        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                                                                                          You know who wins fights? The guy that's used to fighting.

                                                                                                          And usually the guy that lands the first hit. I don't know really who that is in this case, but I speak from experience.

                                                                                                          There is a huge difference between "fighting" as most of us think of it, and really trying to damage someone out of rage. And the person trying to do that, has a great advantage. And height really doesn't matter in any fight.

                                                                                                          And again, almost every post is defending a position the poster has already taken..not really looking for what really happened.
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                                                                                                          • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                                                                                                            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                                                                                            You know who wins fights? The guy that's used to fighting.

                                                                                                            And usually the guy that lands the first hit. I don't know really who that is in this case, but I speak from experience.

                                                                                                            There is a huge difference between "fighting" as most of us think of it, and really trying to damage someone out of rage. And the person trying to do that, has a great advantage. And height really doesn't matter in any fight.

                                                                                                            And again, almost every post is defending a position the poster has already taken..not really looking for what really happened.
                                                                                                            I'd like to know what really happened.

                                                                                                            I hope the jurors do a fine job of sorting out all of the evidence and coming up with the truth, I really do.

                                                                                                            I want nothing more than for justice to be served, for whomever it needs to be served to/for.

                                                                                                            I heard this morning that there was an all female jury. Does anyone know if that is true? If so, I wonder why those in charge of jury selection went that route. :confused:

                                                                                                            Terra
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                                                                                                            • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
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                                                                                                              • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                                                                                                                Wow, Ken!

                                                                                                                I am so sorry to hear about that and feel blessed that I even got to know and talk to you, period.

                                                                                                                I completely understand the guilt thing. That's why I said I don't think I could shoot anybody. Heck, I feel guilty for shooting a bird and killing it that once.

                                                                                                                I can still smush bugs though.

                                                                                                                Anyway, if it helps, I think you did right thing and am glad you did.

                                                                                                                Terra
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                                                                                                          • Profile picture of the author KimW
                                                                                                            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                                                                                            You know who wins fights? The guy that's used to fighting.

                                                                                                            And usually the guy that lands the first hit. I don't know really who that is in this case, but I speak from experience.

                                                                                                            There is a huge difference between "fighting" as most of us think of it, and really trying to damage someone out of rage. And the person trying to do that, has a great advantage. And height really doesn't matter in any fight.

                                                                                                            And again, almost every post is defending a position the poster has already taken..not really looking for what really happened.
                                                                                                            Can agree with some of what you say Claude, but not everything.

                                                                                                            I hate fighting always have,

                                                                                                            But when I was a kid my older brother would instigate fights for me. I would decline to participate until the other person would hit me.
                                                                                                            It would be at that point that I would let loose and literally try to kill the other person. (Keep in mind I was between the age ages of 8-14 during this period.)
                                                                                                            I never lost.
                                                                                                            The fight was over when people would pull me off.

                                                                                                            To this day I consider myself a non violent person,but I am also a survivor.
                                                                                                            It is the survivor that wins a fight. Especially a desperate one.

                                                                                                            You are 100% correct that most people who are posting made their mind up about this case long ago.

                                                                                                            Nothing said in it is going to change anyone's mind.

                                                                                                            In the last thread about this case all I ever said was that I hope he gets a fair trial.
                                                                                                            I still hope he does.
                                                                                                            If he is found guilty, he had a fair trial.
                                                                                                            If he is found not guilty,he had a fair trial.
                                                                                                            That is what this country is about. Or at least used to be.
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                                                                                                            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                                                                                              Originally Posted by KimW View Post

                                                                                                              Can agree with some of what you say Claude, but not everything.

                                                                                                              I hate fighting always have,

                                                                                                              But when I was a kid my older brother would instigate fights for me. I would decline to participate until the other person would hit me.
                                                                                                              It would be at that point that I would let loose and literally try to kill the other person. (Keep in mind I was between the age ages of 8-14 during this period.)
                                                                                                              I never lost.
                                                                                                              The fight was over when people would pull me off.
                                                                                                              Kim; We aren't disagreeing. Some people have a deep seated ability to become blindly aggressive and some don't. Most don't. And you don't know which one you are until it happens.

                                                                                                              Um, I hope this sounds the way I mean it. It's far more likely to get this reaction from someone not fully grown. The part of the brain that measures consequences of our actions doesn't mature until about 25 years of age.

                                                                                                              It's one reason 18-20 year olds make better soldiers. It's one reason young people get into more fights. The "What will happen after I do this" ideas haven't gelled yet.

                                                                                                              Anyway, I was more like that myself when I was a kid. Not now. Never again.

                                                                                                              Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                                                                                                              I heard this morning that there was an all female jury. Does anyone know if that is true? If so, I wonder why those in charge of jury selection went that route. :confused:

                                                                                                              Terra
                                                                                                              Don't know. And I don't know if that will be a factor. I hope not, either way.
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                                                                                                              • Profile picture of the author KimW
                                                                                                                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                                                                                                Kim; We aren't disagreeing. Some people have a deep seated ability to become blindly aggressive and some don't. Most don't. And you don't know which one you are until it happens.

                                                                                                                Um, I hope this sounds the way I mean it. It's far more likely to get this reaction from someone not fully grown. The part of the brain that measures consequences of our actions doesn't mature until about 25 years of age.

                                                                                                                It's one reason 18-20 year olds make better soldiers. It's one reason young people get into more fights. The "What will happen after I do this" ideas haven't gelled yet.

                                                                                                                Anyway, I was more like that myself when I was a kid. Not now. Never again.



                                                                                                                Don't know. And I don't know if that will be a factor. I hope not, either way.
                                                                                                                Claude,
                                                                                                                that was why I pointed out my age when I would react like this.
                                                                                                                I hope no one thinks I am like that still.

                                                                                                                As far as the brain being matured at 25, I have been an advocate of rasing the age of adulthood for many years. One of the worst things this country did was lower it to 18.


                                                                                                                Terra,
                                                                                                                yes, it is an all female jury.
                                                                                                                Jury selection is not an easy event,especially in a high profile case like this.
                                                                                                                I think what we are looking at in the jury is a big compromise.
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                                                                                                  • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                                                                                                    Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                                                                                                    For someone accusing others of not knowing the facts you sure are wrong about things. For example: Trayvon weighed just 160 and Z weighed 185. Trayvon was 6' and weighed 160. Do you realize how thin that is? You are making up facts.
                                                                                                    I'd love to weight that much
                                                                                                    I'm 6'2" and weight 155
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                                                                                                    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                                                                                                      Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                                                                                                      I'd love to weight that much
                                                                                                      I'm 6'2" and weight 155
                                                                                                      A long as we are comparing.... At trevon age, I was 6'1", and less than 170. Standard weight/height charts indicate that trevon would weigh about 154. So he was ABOVE average weight!

                                                                                                      Steve
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                                                                                • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
                                                                                  Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                                                                                  George could have very easily shot a warning shot straight up into the air. If he had done that, don't you think Trayvon would have stopped and hightailed it out of there?
                                                                                  Terra, I'm not taking sides here because I don't know the truth, but that statement leads me to believe you've never been in a serious fight. Nothing is "very easy" in that situation. He may have been losing control of the gun at that point, and firing was all he could do before the gun was in the other person's hand. We don't know.
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                                                                                  • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                                                                                    Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

                                                                                    Terra, I'm not taking sides here because I don't know the truth, but that statement leads me to believe you've never been in a serious fight. Nothing is "very easy" in that situation. He may have been losing control of the gun at that point, and firing was all he could do before the gun was in the other person's hand. We don't know.
                                                                                    You're right, No serious fights...

                                                                                    Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                                                                                    Believe it or not, I have never ever been in a knock down drag out, exchanging blows kind of altercation before in my life.

                                                                                    I've thrown a few well deserved slaps and a few swing kicks to the solar plexus before and ended some stupidity right in its tracks, but never have been involved in exchanging blows. I have no experience to draw upon, therefore.



                                                                                    Terra
                                                                                    From my post above.

                                                                                    Terra
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                                                                                    • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
                                                                                      Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                                                                                      You're right, No serious fights...



                                                                                      From my post above.

                                                                                      Terra
                                                                                      Oh rats. Sorry Terra, I didn't mean to pile on. I didn't realize there was another page when I replied. I thought I was the first to offer that counterpoint. That's what I get for TBC (typing before coffee).
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                                                                                      • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                                                                                        Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

                                                                                        Oh rats. Sorry Terra, I didn't mean to pile on. I didn't realize there was another page when I replied. I thought I was the first to offer that counterpoint. That's what I get for TBC (typing before coffee).
                                                                                        No problem, Dennis.

                                                                                        I can completely relate to the posting before coffee syndrome, unfortunately, lol!

                                                                                        Terra
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                                                                    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                                                                      When the adrenaline is pumping and the situation is out of control, logical thought patterns go out the window. May have been true for both men that night.
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                                                                • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                                                                  Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                                                                  Exaggerate much? His head bashed in? Really?

                                                                  He had some minor abrasions on the back of it.

                                                                  Terra
                                                                  You DO realize that perhaps MOST brain injuries happen NOT from something hurting the skull, but from the brain hitting the skull. it is VERY hard to break the skull, especially with your bare hands, but INCREDIBLY easy to hurt the brain, and even kill a person, by doing so.

                                                                  OH, they will talk about "shaken baby syndrome" because babies are easy to shake, and some careless people do that, but the FACT is that it can happen with an adult TOO!

                                                                  Bashing ones head in is kind of all inclusive statement, and common. BTW he had a broken nose TOO!

                                                                  Steve
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                                                                  • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                                                                    Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                                                                    You DO realize that perhaps MOST brain injuries happen NOT from something hurting the skull, but from the brain hitting the skull. it is VERY hard to break the skull, especially with your bare hands, but INCREDIBLY easy to hurt the brain, and even kill a person, by doing so.

                                                                    OH, they will talk about "shaken baby syndrome" because babies are easy to shake, and some careless people do that, but the FACT is that it can happen with an adult TOO!

                                                                    Bashing ones head in is kind of all inclusive statement, and common. BTW he had a broken nose TOO!

                                                                    Steve
                                                                    Steve, I worked in the medical field for years, so I am well aware of the dynamics of head injuries. I have seen "bashed in skulls" so when he said bashed his skull in, that obviously was a gross exaggeration, literally.

                                                                    In my experience, patients that died from head injuries were the ones who had skull fractures or worse from blunt force trauma. Many had closed head injuries and some were even in a coma. More patients had permanent brain damage from the swelling of the brain, some did pass. But the majority of fatalities were indeed from broken skulls. Let me reiterate, based on my personal experiences while working in the medical field.

                                                                    Terra
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                                                                    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                                                                      Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                                                                      Steve, I worked in the medical field for years, so I am well aware of the dynamics of head injuries. I have seen "bashed in skulls" so when he said bashed his skull in, that obviously was a gross exaggeration, literally.

                                                                      In my experience, patients that died from head injuries were the ones who had skull fractures or worse from blunt force trauma. Many had closed head injuries and some were even in a coma. More patients had permanent brain damage from the swelling of the brain, some did pass. But the majority of fatalities were indeed from broken skulls. Let me reiterate, based on my personal experiences while working in the medical field.

                                                                      Terra
                                                                      Well, concussions and the like, CAN cause swelling! Outside of infection, allergies, poisoning, what else would?

                                                                      http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/concussion/DS00320

                                                                      People can die from concussions, they can become far worse AND, should anyone survive fro them, science STONGLY believes they will cause debilitations, like dementia, later.

                                                                      Steve
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                                                                      • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                                                                        Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                                                                        Well, concussions and the like, CAN cause swelling! Outside of infection, allergies, poisoning, what else would?

                                                                        http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/concussion/DS00320

                                                                        People can die from concussions, they can become far worse AND, should anyone survive fro them, science STONGLY believes they will cause debilitations, like dementia, later.

                                                                        Steve
                                                                        You think I didn't know that? :confused:

                                                                        Terra
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                                                                        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                                                                          Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                                                                          You think I didn't know that? :confused:

                                                                          Terra
                                                                          You seemed to be saying it doesn't happen. I would HOPE that if someone came in with OBVIOUS head damage that they would be taken ASAP and would have seen people that would assess everything.

                                                                          I came in a few times because I COULD have had SEVERE head trauma(Taking warfarin, my chances have typically been perhaps 9 times as likely.), and they *******LITERALLY******* wouldn't even give me the time of day. I asked them that as well as for water, a urinal to urinate into, and just to be SEEN! Average response time was probably like 4 HOURS!

                                                                          So who knows, some you may never even see. Heck, some may be sent to the MORGUE! 1 keep flashing on John Ritter. He had what I originally had. They not only didn't have time for him, they gave him drugs for a heart attack! The result? HE DIED! http://www.today.com/id/22989512/ns/.../#.UdBjKzTVB9s

                                                                          It is interesting that they said a code blue was announced. That is DUMB! Normal reaction to a code blue would give him things to make it WORSE, and even a defibrillator could have been dangerous! I don't know WHAT they would do in a case. Maybe even the DOCTORS don't! But implying he has a heart attack is NOT GOOD!

                                                                          BTW I say that even the doctors might know what to do because there is only 1 dissection for every 5000 heart attacks, and only 10% of them get to the hospital alive. So the odds of a doctor being in that position, if they are a cardiologist, is less than 1 in 50000! A lot of medical people were surprised I went through the ordeal and lived.

                                                                          Steve
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                                              • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                                                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                                I think it would be much easier to get a conviction if the charge was Manslaughter. If I was on the jury, and it was second degree murder? I would have to be damn sure, and I'm not. My first impression...my opinion...is not enough to destroy a mans life. I must be sure. And I don't know if that's possible in this case.
                                                I'm sure Zimmerman followed Martin and I'm sure Zimmerman killed Martin. I'm also sure if Zimmerman acted responsibly and didn't follow Martin, a teen would be alive today. The simple truth is, Zimmerman had no business following Martin.

                                                And I'm sure Zimmerman should pay for what he did. What I'm not sure of, is if Zimmerman is guilty of second degree murder and what that punishment should be. And this will need to come out in the trial and I don't have any interest in watching this trial.

                                                However, if I was on the jury, I wouldn't need to be sure. I would only need to believe it beyond a reasonable doubt.
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                                    • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
                                      Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                                      <snip>
                                      This could be the same. If a lie detector test shows he did molest her then stick him in a block with guys who have daughters and tell them he's a child molester.
                                      They only have a two-year age difference, so "child molester" wouldn't be quite accurate, if true, but would still make him an incestuous pervert. As a non-lawyer I don't know squat but I can't imagine that, legally, it could be anything more than he said, she said, and lie detectors aren't even permitted as evidence in court.
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  • Profile picture of the author LarryC
    This is a complicated case where there is no simple good guy vs bad guy. Both of them probably behaved with poor judgment, though arguably this is a lot more serious when one is carrying a loaded gun.

    Jurors, like the general public, will probably be inclined to come to their conclusions based on their race and socioeconomic status. This is sad but usually true. Middle class white people will tend to identify with a lighter skinned property owner who is acting as a protector (supposedly). Minorities will be more likely to see Trayvon as the victim of racism.

    Who is right? Probably neither. Who is less wrong? We may never know.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    I just read a post that says exactly my point. Sadly, due to the nature of the site, I should not link there, so I will just show the whole post here:

    Even if Geroge Zimmerman is Guilty, He Should Probably Walk

    by Gordan Runyan

    In the murder trial of George Zimmerman, the prosecution is trying to paint him as a racist, gun-happy, vigilante, zealot, who stalked Trayvon Martin and murdered him. I’ll be the first to admit it: I don’t know the truth about what happened that night. Neither have I been given access to all the evidence that will come forward. Maybe the prosecution is correct about all of this. I don’t know.

    But see, that’s just the thing: No one else does either, if the first few prosecution witnesses are to be believed.


    From the pool of living, breathing humanity, only Mr. Zimmerman knows what happened. He’s claiming self-defense. By definition, since he’s the only one alive who really knows, that means there is no one who is in a position to contradict him, or prove him wrong, or to expose his lie.

    Apparently, the jury will hear all about how Zimmerman called 911 on several other occasions involving suspicious persons who were black. Okay. Maybe, on a stretch, that might point to some racism. But what it doesn’t do is prove that the man is lying when he says he shot to defend himself. The fact that he may not like black folks doesn’t mean Trayvon wasn’t bouncing his head off the curb.

    Here’s the issue: Our criminal justice system is not about acting on the objective truth surrounding any particular crime. It simply isn’t, and we ought to disabuse ourselves of that notion. Instead, our criminal justice system is designed to act only upon what may be proved regarding any particular crime.

    In an imperfect world, in which none of the officers of the court are all-knowing, we can’t operate based on the transcendental truth of what really happened. We must confine ourselves to what we can prove. Happily, those two often coincide, but sometimes proof is lacking.

    Now, if we can’t prove guilt, that doesn’t mean the defendant is innocent: In fact, he may really have done the deed. But when we can’t prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, we return a verdict of “Not Guilty.” In our system, I stress, that doesn’t mean we think the guy is pure as the driven snow. It simply means the prosecution was unable to make its case. And we set that bar very high on purpose. It is a defense against tyranny.

    The Biblical law demanded of Israel that no one be convicted of a crime unless his guilt was confirmed in the mouth of two or more witnesses (see Deuteronomy 19:15.) This wound up being a means of protection for individual citizens. One guy couldn’t make up a story and have the accusation stick against his neighbor. If a criminal trial really came down to “he said, she said,” then the thing to do was call it a wash and go home, while reminding each other that God is watching and will judge, perfectly. Does that mean the guilty went free sometimes? Probably so. But the innocent rarely got wrongly convicted, and it is that precise threat that we need to protect against, even in our modern society.

    Let’s grant the prosecution’s entire case in the Zimmerman trial. Let’s say he really is a racist who felt extra tough when he was carrying a gun. Let’s say it really was unreasonable for him to follow Trayvon Martin that night. Let’s say Trayvon had not a malicious bone in his body. Let’s say that at some point, in the rain, after calling cops to the scene, Zimmerman decided to shoot the young man and kill him. That’s what he did. Let’s grant it all.

    It still boils down to this: not much of this, especially not the really important parts of it, can be proven. Already, the prosecution has had to admit that it has no witness who actually saw what happened. Their star witness was a barely coherent young woman who says she was on the phone with Trayvon until right before the confrontation between the two men became violent. She is in no position (from what I’ve heard) to testify about who attacked whom. However, even if the prosecution found an eye-witness, righteousness really demands they find another one to go with him/her.

    But then, someone protests, a murderer would go free, based on his lie of self-defense! Yes, that’s what would happen. He’ll be free, like O.J. Simpson was freed. He’ll be free for a while. And then eventually he will meet up with a Judge who really does know the exact truth of what went down, and can, in fact, see into Zimmerman’s heart. Justice really will be done, even if we can’t quite get it right here and now.

    When you’re the victim of the crime, or someone you love is, you want to see justice done. Like yesterday. When you’re the victim, a case like the one I’m making here sounds like ridiculous twaddle. I know that. That’s why, when the sun is shining and we’re all basically okay, that’s the time to sort this out. We want a system that errs on the side of protecting the innocent man who is falsely accused, rather than on the side of hurt and angered parties who demand swift retribution, and for whom the question of real guilt or innocence may take a back seat to the desire to see someone pay.

    Maybe the Zimmerman prosecution is right. If so, I really hope they’re able to scare up a couple witnesses who can tell us all what happened. Who attacked whom, when it came down to it? But if they’re wrong, it would be the opposite of justice to sacrifice a man to the mob that’s calling for blood.
    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    It's ALSO possible that we see that there is NO evidence that trevon was pursued past that point. FACE IT! If trevon were merely pursued, once he past the end of the property, Zimmerman would have a LOT of trouble defending things, etc... Yet that NEVER came up, so they are claiming trevon loitered or some such? Zimmerman said he was on his way back to the car when he was puched out of the blue, and DECKED! Johnathan Good, the only REAL witness, said he saw trevon on the ground sitting on Zimmerman, and beating him.

    MEANWHILE, the effectively deaf and blind witness on the prosecution said, among other things, that zimmerman was a racist because TREVON used racist comments Saying that he was followed by a "creepy ass cracker". She THEN said it was NOT a racial comment, perhaps because she realized it was detrimental.

    INTERESTING how things went from a young 12yo innocent with skittles and ice tea pursued by a racist white to a big 17yo that was a racist and fighting a hispanic MMA style, HUH! This must be the longest fight in history. I mean it had to last 5-6 YEARS! And what of the media that removed a statement and then blatantly said it NEVER existed!?!? They ran with that concept as their WHOLE story!

    They CLAIMED the 911 call was:
    “This guy looks like he’s up to no good. Or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about. He looks black.”

    It was REALLY:
    “This guy looks like he’s up to no good. Or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about,” Zimmerman said.

    The dispatcher asked, “OK, and this guy – is he black, white, or Hispanic?” Zimmerman replied, “He looks black.”

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Maybe the concept of "neighborhood watch" escapes people. The idea is that if someone looks suspicious, and you don't know if they live there, you watch as much as you can until they leave the area, enter a residence in a normal fashion, or somehow otherwise cease seeming suspicious. If you don't see them finish with something, like entering a residence legitimately, maybe note it. Some people may go out of their way to continue. HEY, it is THEIR right! Failure to follow up on such suspicions can lead to vandalism, theft, and perhaps murder!

    If they do something VERY suspicious, like entering a place through a window or back door, or loitering as if to do so, tell someone else and/or call 911. And YEAH, zimmerman did that! He called 911, mentioned trevon was loitering and acting suspicious.

    Even if he were still walking, etc... What is he SUPPOSED to do? Lie down on the street and wait until morning? NO, he has to continue on with his life, or go home. He said he was going to his car, to do just that.

    One person this afternoon said trevon had a right to be there. Actually, he DIDN'T! He was trespassing, and apparently loitering. If he had to get home, he could have simply walked home ON THE SIDEWALK! Some say "BUT IT WAS ***RAINING***!!!". OK, so what is the hoodie for? We've come round robin! If the hoodie served no LEGITIMATE function, it must be ILLEGITIMATE, which makes it suspicious. If he stayed on the sidewalks, and kept walking, he would have seemed less suspicious, and would have not broken any laws.

    If you have a gun, the reason is *****NOT***** to counter a gun! It is to use lethal force against another using lethal force. If zimmerman was getting his head bashed in, and could shoot, he has a right to do so.

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      Maybe the concept of "neighborhood watch" escapes people. The idea is that if someone looks suspicious, and you don't know if they live there, you watch as much as you can until they leave the area, enter a residence in a normal fashion, or somehow otherwise cease seeming suspicious. If you don't see them finish with something, like entering a residence legitimately, maybe note it. Some people may go out of their way to continue. HEY, it is THEIR right! Failure to follow up on such suspicions can lead to vandalism, theft, and perhaps murder!

      If they do something VERY suspicious, like entering a place through a window or back door, or loitering as if to do so, tell someone else and/or call 911. And YEAH, zimmerman did that! He called 911, mentioned trevon was loitering and acting suspicious.

      Even if he were still walking, etc... What is he SUPPOSED to do? Lie down on the street and wait until morning? NO, he has to continue on with his life, or go home. He said he was going to his car, to do just that.

      One person this afternoon said trevon had a right to be there. Actually, he DIDN'T! He was trespassing, and apparently loitering. If he had to get home, he could have simply walked home ON THE SIDEWALK! Some say "BUT IT WAS ***RAINING***!!!". OK, so what is the hoodie for? We've come round robin! If the hoodie served no LEGITIMATE function, it must be ILLEGITIMATE, which makes it suspicious. If he stayed on the sidewalks, and kept walking, he would have seemed less suspicious, and would have not broken any laws.

      If you have a gun, the reason is *****NOT***** to counter a gun! It is to use lethal force against another using lethal force. If zimmerman was getting his head bashed in, and could shoot, he has a right to do so.

      Steve
      Neighborhood watch are suppose to report suspicious activity to the police, not get involved with the suspect. They are also not suppose to have firearms. In fact a neighborhood watch focuses on educating residents to observe and report, not follow and confront.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

        Neighborhood watch are suppose to report suspicious activity to the police, not get involved with the suspect. They are also not suppose to have firearms. In fact a neighborhood watch focuses on educating residents to observe and report, not follow and confront.
        I KNOW! I DID say "If they do something VERY suspicious, like entering a place through a window or back door, or loitering as if to do so, tell someone else and/or call 911. And YEAH, zimmerman did that! He called 911, mentioned trevon was loitering and acting suspicious. ".

        But what if THEY confront YOU?

        Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author Patrician
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      Maybe the concept of "neighborhood watch" escapes people. The idea is that if someone looks suspicious, and you don't know if they live there, you watch as much as you can until they leave the area, enter a residence in a normal fashion, or somehow otherwise cease seeming suspicious. If you don't see them finish with something, like entering a residence legitimately, maybe note it. Some people may go out of their way to continue. HEY, it is THEIR right! Failure to follow up on such suspicions can lead to vandalism, theft, and perhaps murder!

      If they do something VERY suspicious, like entering a place through a window or back door, or loitering as if to do so, tell someone else and/or call 911. And YEAH, zimmerman did that! He called 911, mentioned trevon was loitering and acting suspicious.

      Even if he were still walking, etc... What is he SUPPOSED to do? Lie down on the street and wait until morning? NO, he has to continue on with his life, or go home. He said he was going to his car, to do just that.

      One person this afternoon said trevon had a right to be there. Actually, he DIDN'T! He was trespassing, and apparently loitering. If he had to get home, he could have simply walked home ON THE SIDEWALK! Some say "BUT IT WAS ***RAINING***!!!". OK, so what is the hoodie for? We've come round robin! If the hoodie served no LEGITIMATE function, it must be ILLEGITIMATE, which makes it suspicious. If he stayed on the sidewalks, and kept walking, he would have seemed less suspicious, and would have not broken any laws.

      If you have a gun, the reason is *****NOT***** to counter a gun! It is to use lethal force against another using lethal force. If zimmerman was getting his head bashed in, and could shoot, he has a right to do so.

      Steve
      Dear Steve.

      With all due respect - what a load of crap.

      A neighborhood watch watches not confronts like Thom said. If he was convinced a crime was being committed then he should call the police and follow the directions.

      I have several hoodies - it's a fad - not that I am faddish but you can't buy a sweatshirt/jacket without a freaking hood. OK I don't wear it over my head, and I know they say a lot of hoods are wearing them (no pun here) - the point is it doesn't make me a crook or give you an excuse to kill me because i wear a hoodie. Nor does loitering, being black or anything else justify murder (except direct self defense).

      but the logic is about like the crips and bloods - if you wear red or blue you are living dangerously in some areas as you may be shot by the opposite side.

      same thing here - there is no excuse for this crime - period. i don't even think you could stretch it far enough to call it 'self defense" (which I definitely would condone).
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by Patrician View Post

        A neighborhood watch watches not confronts like Thom said. If he was convinced a crime was being committed then he should call the police and follow the directions.
        I didn't say confront. There are MANY reasons why that would be a BAD idea.

        I have several hoodies - it's a fad - not that I am faddish but you can't buy a sweatshirt/jacket without a freaking hood. OK I don't wear it over my head, and I know they say a lot of hoods are wearing them (no pun here) - the point is it doesn't make me a crook or give you an excuse to kill me because i wear a hoodie.
        OK, well HE apparently was wearing it up. OK, if it is a fad, MAKE IT USEFUL! I mean the faddy sneakers can STILL be used as SHOES! As for calling hoods hoods? WHO KNOWS how it came about? Not that that matters. And the hoodie just kind of makes one excuse for walking close to the houses pretty dumb.


        Nor does loitering, being black or anything else justify murder (except direct self defense).
        NOPE, but it makes him suspicious! Black has NOTHING to do with it. Whites would look suspicious ALSO!

        but the logic is about like the crips and bloods - if you wear red or blue you are living dangerously in some areas as you may be shot by the opposite side.
        YEP! But if you spout the other gangs garb, use their lingo, AND approach, you probably WILL be shot!

        same thing here - there is no excuse for this crime - period. i don't even think you could stretch it far enough to call it 'self defense" (which I definitely would condone).
        If he WAS headed back to his car, as he claims, and WAS hit out of the blue as he claims, and WAS decked, as all the tangible evidence shows, and WAS gettng punched MMA style, as the witness says, and DID have his life threatened as he claims and the DEFENSE witness indicates, in a fashion, then it WAS self defense!

        HEY, if the prosecution claimed that about zimmerman, he would be sent up the river JUST for using an epithet! PC today takes such statements as ******PROOF****** of hate! It takes such hate as PROOF of being malicious! It takes that intent and uses it as PROOF that he killed the other person. So their thinking is....WHO CARES someone is dead, etc.... It wasn't MURDER.....It was a ******HATE CRIME******!

        But NO, his skin is white so they consider him white, so the other guy could NEVER be accused of a hate crime. After all, EVERYONE LOVES WHITES, RIGHT!?!?!?(SARC)

        And YOU are guilty of that thinking. I never once said ANYTHING about it being because he was black.

        Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      And I'm sure Zimmerman should pay for what he did.
      I agree - but I think 2nd degree won't stick here. I thought at the time the case was over charged so I hope the jury has a choice of manslaughter or whatever they have in Florida.
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    • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      He was trespassing, and apparently loitering. If he had to get home, he could have simply walked home ON THE SIDEWALK! Some say "BUT IT WAS ***RAINING***!!!". OK, so what is the hoodie for? We've come round robin! If the hoodie served no LEGITIMATE function, it must be ILLEGITIMATE, which makes it suspicious. If he stayed on the sidewalks, and kept walking, he would have seemed less suspicious, and would have not broken any laws.


      Steve


      Steve, please tell me that you did not just say that Treyvon deserved to be shot because he ventured off the sidewalk and walked on the lawn!

      If so, you're just like this old granny that was in the news a few days ago. By the way, she had her gun taken away and is in jail!!

      Granny Threatens Six Year Old With Gun

      Terra
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post



        Steve, please tell me that you did not just say that Treyvon deserved to be shot because he ventured off the sidewalk and walked on the lawn!

        If so, you're just like this old granny that was in the news a few days ago. By the way, she had her gun taken away and is in jail!!

        Granny Threatens Six Year Old With Gun

        Terra
        NOPE! I am just saying that it makes him suspicious, and IS exculpatory for zimmerman, given the circumstances.

        Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
          Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

          NOPE! I am just saying that it makes him suspicious, and IS exculpatory for zimmerman, given the circumstances.

          Steve
          Whew! You scared me there for a minute!!

          But I do disagree with you that Treyvon walking on grass rather than the sidewalk is favorable evidence for the defendant, though. Circumstances being that it was raining and he was taking a shortcut to return to the home quicker. That is entirely feasible.

          Terra
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    • Profile picture of the author RickCopy
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      Maybe the concept of "neighborhood watch" escapes people. The idea is that if someone looks suspicious, and you don't know if they live there, you watch as much as you can until they leave the area, enter a residence in a normal fashion, or somehow otherwise cease seeming suspicious. If you don't see them finish with something, like entering a residence legitimately, maybe note it. Some people may go out of their way to continue. HEY, it is THEIR right! Failure to follow up on such suspicions can lead to vandalism, theft, and perhaps murder!

      If they do something VERY suspicious, like entering a place through a window or back door, or loitering as if to do so, tell someone else and/or call 911. And YEAH, zimmerman did that! He called 911, mentioned trevon was loitering and acting suspicious.

      Even if he were still walking, etc... What is he SUPPOSED to do? Lie down on the street and wait until morning? NO, he has to continue on with his life, or go home. He said he was going to his car, to do just that.

      One person this afternoon said trevon had a right to be there. Actually, he DIDN'T! He was trespassing, and apparently loitering. If he had to get home, he could have simply walked home ON THE SIDEWALK! Some say "BUT IT WAS ***RAINING***!!!". OK, so what is the hoodie for? We've come round robin! If the hoodie served no LEGITIMATE function, it must be ILLEGITIMATE, which makes it suspicious. If he stayed on the sidewalks, and kept walking, he would have seemed less suspicious, and would have not broken any laws.

      If you have a gun, the reason is *****NOT***** to counter a gun! It is to use lethal force against another using lethal force. If zimmerman was getting his head bashed in, and could shoot, he has a right to do so.

      Steve
      this pretty much sums up what I was going to post.
      If the facts above are actually what happened then Zimmerman isnt guilty of murder...and no, your personal interpretation or feelings about what Stand your Ground means doesn't come into play here.

      there's either enough facts to prove murder or there's not... that being said, judges, attorneys and jurors typically have their own interpretation on how justice should be dispensed....and most of the time it has nothing to do with actual legalities....so basically this will come down to who's more popular in court and the demographics of the jury.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
        Originally Posted by RickCopy View Post

        this pretty much sums up what I was going to post.
        If the facts above are actually what happened then Zimmerman isnt guilty of murder...and no, your personal interpretation or feelings about what Stand your Ground means doesn't come into play here.

        there's either enough facts to prove murder or there's not... that being said, judges, attorneys and jurors typically have their own interpretation on how justice should be dispensed....and most of the time it has nothing to do with actual legalities....so basically this will come down to who's more popular in court and the demographics of the jury.
        And no, no one said their "personal interpretation or feelings about what Stand your Ground means" is in play. The legal aspect is, despite the comments of RickCopy and teve.

        Here's the problem many on this thread have. They believe that any instance when your life is in danger you can use self defense as a legal defense for killing someone. But this isn't accurate.

        For example, let's say a guy walks into a 7-11 with a gun to rob the store. Let's call the guy "Steve".

        Steve points his gun at the clerk and demands money. Steve doesn't notice a customer that cracks Steve over the head from behind with a bottle. The customer is beating Steve with the bottle and Steve is ready to black out.

        Fearing for his life, Steve shoots the customer and kills him. Can Steve claim a defense of self defense?

        No, he can't. You can NOT claim self defense when commiting a crime. There are other instances when "self defense" isn't a legal defense.

        Laws also are based on what a reasonable person would do. If it's true Zimmerman went back to his car and was then approached by Martin, what was the reasonable thing to do?

        IMO, it was to drive off. He was in no danger from someone outside of the car when all he had to do was drive.

        If Zimmerman got out of his car, he was NOT standing his ground. He was in persuit of Martin, even if Marting was approaching him also.

        None of the "in self defense" matters to me. It's whether Zimmerman approached Martin or not. If Zimmerman did, then he needs to take 50% of the responsibility for the confrontation.

        If Zimmerman didn't approach Martin in any way and couldn't drive off for some reason, then he was likely acting in self defense and I'd find him not guilty.

        However, if Martin wasn't doing anything wrong, where's Martin's right to self defense and standing his own ground when being followed by some creepy guy?

        Just like there's plenty of people in prison for killing someone in a street fight, Zimmerman needs to show he did everything reasonable to avoid the confrontation, which seems to me it would have been to simply drive away. I'm sure plenty of people in prison for manslaugher were also "defending" themselves in street fights.

        BTW, if it's true that Martin jumped out of some bushes to ambush Zimmerman, Zimmerman was also likely tresspassing. Being on a Neighborhood Watch program doesn't make anyone a duputy or part of a posse with special rights where he is immune to the law. Just because Zimmerman "thought" Martin was acting "suspicous" doesn't give Zimmerman the right to tresspass on my property. Maybe Martin was "watching" Zimmerman?
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  • Profile picture of the author Patrician
    lol - same story different day - the ot sure is informative and argumentative.

    ;o)

    snarky fur shur! proud of it. but personal attacks "ad homiem' yeah that is like relative to blame the victim - shoot the messenger.

    seriously though the argument about whether Travon is innocent or baddy -

    -- totally irrelevant. sure if he was menacing or actually committed crimes, you can do a better job of 'blame the victim' (and even be glad the little mother is gone from the earth if he was bad/violent/dishonest) -- don't rationalize just that little sprinkle of racism that goes with DAT- excuse to fail @ being a 'liberal' lol.

    p.s. - more relevant would be whether zimmerman had exhibited violence and debauchery since he is the one that DID the killing in this case!!! hello???

    EVEN if Travon was Al Capone (convicted) it still would not be the case that you could just murder him because you felt like it. Or because you were afraid. (come to think of it, fear i can almost see how someone who is unbalanced mentally or spiritually sick (or dead) might go to that end) -

    ... so maybe second degree murder or something less than first. (unless history of violence or hate crimes, then maybe the penalty could be to the max @ 2nd degree)

    (and celly with Big Bad Bubbah)

    But anyway as Rodney King Sez: "Can we all JUST get along"?

    not in the warrior off topic basement rodney. no wusses here!

    but yeah you guys all get along well, well mostly, lol and if having to NOT TELL THE TRUTH AS YOU KNOW or FEEL to 'GET ALONG", with others we care enough to try to communicate with, IT wouldn't be being honest. Friendship under false pretenses.

    It would clearly be diametrically opposed to honesty, and "POLITICAL".

    naughty!
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    http://news.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin...143356744.html

    Maybe they should just throw out what she says. It IS, at best, hearsay anyway!

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Patrician
    Yeah. it really sounds like it was a retaliation killing.

    Z got his ass beat and THEN decided to retaliate, and THEN shot T. so self defense would be T was on top of Z and Z feared for his life and he killed T. justifiable homicide.

    but if T got up and walked away or somehow they were not directly engaged in 'combat' and THEN Z took his revenge. it's not self-defense, not understandable.

    (I am not really following this on the news - just scanned a few stories from time to time - so I am really asking if this is what happened - (most of what I am learning about this is right from here).

    So if anybody knows the story do tell.

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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by Patrician View Post

      Yeah. it really sounds like it was a retaliation killing.

      Z got his ass beat and THEN decided to retaliate, and THEN shot T. so self defense would be T was on top of Z and Z feared for his life and he killed T. justifiable homicide.

      but if T got up and walked away or somehow they were not directly engaged in 'combat' and THEN Z took his revenge. it's not self-defense, not understandable.

      (I am not really following this on the news - just scanned a few stories from time to time - so I am really asking if this is what happened - (most of what I am learning about this is right from here).

      So if anybody knows the story do tell.

      Fights between strangers like this don't happen that way. One doesn't just get up and walk away. You're thinking about BOXING or some such. HERE, one had animosity and/or fear, and attacked the other. Such an attack greatly increases the potential for fear so, they would not leave until the person was incapacitated in some way. If it were animosity, it would STILL increase the fear, and they would STILL be incapacitated, and perhaps killed.

      NOW, if it were ZIMMERMAN that was the aggressor, and he had backup or some method of restraint, he could use THAT. But what could trevon use? He CLEARLY acted like he believed his word meant NOTHING! So he couldn't even restrain the guy, as he would get someone to come, set him free, and help hunt trevon down.

      BTW 911 isn't any good in this case because they would be out i time to do your autopsy. You have to call 911 early ad HOPE they come in time. After all, the LAST thing you want to do is win such a fight, get up, start to leave, and end up dead because you let your guard down.

      HECK, it is interesting that nobody called 911 for trevon.

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Patrician
    hmmm well - this does sound like it could be called self defense to hear this version and if the evidence really supports it - thanks simonjnh.

    so maybe poor Z just 'bit off more than he could chew' by pursuing this when the cops told him not to - and then when faced with the results of his actions, he felt he had no choice but to shoot.

    maybe it is not as clear cut as the other things I have heard fragments of (and maybe misconstrued) -- and not really following the case that closely - and now playing catch up.

    so does Z have a permit to carry a concealed weapon?

    i still think with this version which seems very pat in favor of self-defense, that Z provoked the situation AND had that gun on him - quite conveniently? it seems like he deliberately set out to do this (indirectly - not saying pre-meditated but again, he may have envisioned himself as a 'hero' and wannabe cop who would subdue T and protect his hood from an 'interloper'. The tables turned in a way he didn't expect and then he made a 'fatal decision' to shoot T - then I would still need to know exactly how far away T was -I guess back to the part about whether T had gotten up off of Z or not.
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    • Profile picture of the author simonjnh
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Patrician View Post

      hmmm well - this does sound like it could be called self defense to hear this version and if the evidence really supports it - thanks simonjnh.

      so maybe poor Z just 'bit off more than he could chew' by pursuing this when the cops told him not to - and then when faced with the results of his actions, he felt he had no choice but to shoot.

      maybe it is not as clear cut as the other things I have heard fragments of (and maybe misconstrued) -- and not really following the case that closely - and now playing catch up.

      so does Z have a permit to carry a concealed weapon?

      i still think with this version which seems very pat in favor of self-defense, that Z provoked the situation AND had that gun on him - quite conveniently? it seems like he deliberately set out to do this (indirectly - not saying pre-meditated but again, he may have envisioned himself as a 'hero' and wannabe cop who would subdue T and protect his hood from an 'interloper'. The tables turned in a way he didn't expect and then he made a 'fatal decision' to shoot T - then I would still need to know exactly how far away T was -I guess back to the part about whether T had gotten up off of Z or not.

      He had a gun on him for a very simple reason. He lived in a neighborhood that had seen a spate of breakins recently. I don't doubt quite a few others had guns too. Z set out on a patrol so he would definitely take the gun with him. I honestly think a lot of people have simply not seen the evidence, nor actually heard Z's account.
      Z clearly stated in his account to the cops and to the 911 caller that he was following T because there had been a lot of breakins and that these guys had been getting away each time. He wanted to keep an eye on T until the copes got there.
      Then, the 911 operator told him to stop following T and return to his car. Z tells the operator (and later to the cops too) that he stopped following T at that time and was walking back to his car when T chased him down.

      Now match this to the star witness 'Racheal' - according to her, T told her that Z was keeping an eye on him. T referred to Z as a 'cracker' in a car.
      He also told her as per her own account that he was going to go up to the guy and figure out his problem.

      So once again this matches - Z says he stopped following and T is the one who came up to him. T told R that he would chase down Z and see what his problem was.

      Yet again, the account seems to all match up. So far all evidence and accounts match up to a single coherent story:
      1. Z followed T suspecting he was one of the people terrorizing the neighborhood (we do not know if T was involved with that).
      2. Z called 911. 911 told him to stop following T. Z stopped.
      3. T spotted Z and told his gf/friend that he would chase Z down.
      4. T chased down Z, asked what his problem was, punched him in the nose (resulting in a smashed septum).
      5. Eyewitness reports having seen T sitting on top of a fallen over Z, punching/hitting him while Z yelled for help.
      6. Z shot T from the straddled position in the chest.

      Forensic evidence, eyewitness account, Z's own account, T's reputation, and the autopsy all add up to series of events fairly coherently. This is exactly why cops released Z right away on grounds of self defense and he was not charged with a crime until the big PR move painting this as a 'poor black child killed in cold blood by a white man'.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Yeah, what do you believe? Do you believe a changing story that seemed to start with a propagandized tape, story, and pictures, makes no sense, has NO evidence, and has NO witness, that shows the "victim" to have a lot of undue racially motivated animosity? Do you believe a story that is in lie with the REAL tape, has been consistent, has a witness and tangible evidence?

    I hope the set him free, and that he wins the case against MSNBC, etc... HECK, what MSNBC did was VERY racist! It was the most racist thing of all! HOW can they try a guy for supposedly killing one person due to race, and not try others that INTENTIONALLY tried to destroy a person's life and perhaps encourage the killing of millions of people? Those edited tapes, shows, etc... may be around for another hundred years!

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author ronrule
    Let's not forget that it was the media who brought the racial component into this case - not Zimmerman or Martin. The 911 tape was edited by NBC where the dispatcher asked for the description of the suspect (Martin). Zimmerman gave a description, among this was "he's black", and NBC edited out everything but "he's black" making it seem like it was racially motivated. It was THAT that caused the fecal matter to hit the air circulating device.

    Even Al Sharpton got quiet as more details came out, in particular when he realized that Zimmerman's own grandmother was black. This isn't a racially motivated incident, it's just been portrayed as one by the media.

    That said, lets look at the facts:

    1. Zimmerman was the neighborhood watch.
    2. Zimmerman called 911 before anything went down.
    3. Zimmerman had injuries consistent with his story.
    4. The only witness who actually saw anything gave testimony consistent with Zimmerman being the one on the ground, getting beaten.
    5. The police and EMT's who have testified thus far indicate that Zimmerman's demeanor was not that of a man who had just committed an act of murder. He was confused that no one responded to his cries for help, he wasn't aggressive, he was cooperative, etc. All of the police and EMT's seem to be in agreement on this.
    6. The only "witness" - and I say this in quotes because it wasn't witnessed in person, just over the phone, was Martin's girlfriend who has lied, changed her story, claims to have written a letter in cursive but can't read cursive, etc. She isn't credible. At all.

    Did Zimmerman commit murder? Not even close.

    Now ... manslaughter? Maybe. Really that all depends on one thing: who started the fight.

    If Zimmerman got out of his truck and started a physical altercation with Martin, or flashed his gun, then it was Martin who would have been acting in self defense - the fact that Martin happened to be "winning the fight" doesn't make Zimmerman's shooting self defense, it makes it Manslaughter.

    But if Zimmerman simply asked Martin who he was/why he was there/told him to leave/whatever, and Martin copped an attitude and started the fight - which is likely based on the alleged tone of the conversation he had with his girlfriend - then it was Zimmerman who was defending himself, which would absolve him of all charges.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    I even heard, though I have trouble confirming, that Zimmerman even was a big brother to a BLACK child in the big brother program!

    But YEAH, outside of NBC, only TREVON(with his "crazy ass cracker" comment) brought race into it.

    The defense witness tried to say they all call whites crackers, etc... And that "crazy ass" was kind of a swear to single Zimmerman out. Still, Blacks aren't crazy about the N word being used in that way. Even huckleberry fin has been banned for using it. And huck fin is HISTORICAL, even if potentially only fiction. There are historical works out there that insult EVERYONE! One group says that "Br'er Rabbit" is a story that was made to be VERY insulting to whites!

    But we shouldn't care about the cracker term, because they so freely use it.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author LarryC
    I find it amazing how much people are thinking about this. Well, now I'm on it too, lol. What I am finding a hard time imagining here is how the self defense scenario could have played out. If T was on top of Z pummeling him, would the latter really be in a position to pull out a gun, aim and shoot it? It seems that you would need a certain amount of freedom of movement to do this. This would suggest that the shooting occurred when the two were not directly engaged. I really don't know, just speculating like everyone else.
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    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
      Exactly Larry. In fact, it is just about impossible to imagine he was on the bottom when he shot him. Besides the reasons you give, if you shoot someone when they are on top of you, in the chest, there is going to be a lot of blood on your shirt and jacket. There's no evidence of that. I think Patricia may have had it right when she said it may be an act of vengeance. Z was getting beaten and then somehow got on top. Was angry and scared and pulled out his gun and shot T. That isn't really self defense and is more in line with murder two.

      Originally Posted by LarryC View Post

      I find it amazing how much people are thinking about this. Well, now I'm on it too, lol. What I am finding a hard time imagining here is how the self defense scenario could have played out. If T was on top of Z pummeling him, would the latter really be in a position to pull out a gun, aim and shoot it? It seems that you would need a certain amount of freedom of movement to do this. This would suggest that the shooting occurred when the two were not directly engaged. I really don't know, just speculating like everyone else.
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  • Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

    The woman on the phone with Martin when he encountered Zimmerman is a trip.

    She is on the stand - with an attitude - and is admitting she lied over and over because "they didn't aks me that".

    But -there was a nugget that kept me from changing the channel when I turned on the TV.

    This woman was on the phone with Martin just before he was killed. She was not interviewed by police until 3 weeks or so later...and Martin's Mother was allowed to be in the interview room. When did family members start sitting in on witness interrogations?

    So the witness says she didn't say exactly what Trayvon said over the phone because she wanted to clean it up for his Mother. Now she's saying she heard more "after the phone cut off".

    The defense has got to be loving this witness.
    I don't speak for all Black Americans but this was simply embarrassing. It was an explosion just had to happen. I have lived in a predominately Black community for years. I grew up in an all White community. I know both worlds. My next door neighbor in a all Black neighborhood was president of the neighborhood watch. She stood on her lawn and walked up and down the street constantly. It was kind of strange but with her help and other neighbors it cut down break ends a great deal. The thieves went to other streets because they knew people had a watch. The kids got killed. That is the most extreme action. If he wasn't breaking and entering there is a real problem here. The police could and most likely should have been called. A warning should have been shouted out at a distance. There is a Neighborhood Watch procedure. They do not have authority to take a man down simply for hanging around. The police should have been called and he stood down at a distance. So this is ugly. Racially ugly. We have a serious problem with race in this country. It never heals. But how Zimmerman felt about the kid and how the kid felt about Zimmerman was laced with the gas of racism and hatred which so ignited him the teens death. Black on Black crime is racially motivated. White on Black crime is racially motivated. 400 years of slavery is not going to be sweep under the rug with legislation. There was an outrage on a recent commercial showing a biracial family. The commercial was pulled. I do believe that Whites will never understand the damage slavery does to a people. What did to the Black American race of people. Slavery was a brutal institution. It was ugly, harsh and generationally damaging. In our rush for the appearance of the soul of Black folks were sacrificed. Who is the blame. Recently Paual Dean was fired over the N word. Nigger is the world. We say N but it was Nigger. I heard Paula Dean say that her great grandfather had 30 slaves on the books and after emancipation he had zero and his business suffered. He paid the big price. She then said that Blacks were our friends. No Paula they were your slaves. They didnt get paid and they would be lynched and hanged if they ran away. Paula is so racist it is so ingrained in her she can't see it. Should be feel bad for those who lost slaves and lost income as a result. I believe she doesn't think she is racist but she is. I always believed she was. She glorifies the old south. Back when they could sit on the front poach and some Blackie would make sweet tea. She even said that. In the same interview she said "I have black friends" hey (she called the worker) she points to a board and says. He is as black as that board behind us. She calls hey, you know your as Black as the board. Come out so they can see". The lady is racist. The lady is a card carrying racist. A racist doesn't have to wear a white sheet. Now...you have as many White haters as Black racist. What is the definition. A racism is a systematic process. I am going to risk saying this...But I didn't believe America could handle having a Black president so soon. Black people don't own big corporations. We have only one Black on the stock exchange. He may have retired already. We had a few Black generals and a Black secretary of state. I thought this would be a disaster. I hear more damaging things about Obama than I have heard about any one president. The question is where do we go from here. When do Blacks stop looking towards White America for what they can do for themselves. When will Blacks network and create more opportunities for themselves. I think Blacks have stopped doing this. When will White start getting it that racism has and still does benefit them. That many Whites are die hard racists. Our country is at a place where we have to get passed color. We have to. Now we are adding immigrants by the millions which will make it even more diverse and more confusing. I dont see how this is going to work well for anyone really. Thanks for having the courage to post your response here. It gives me the courage to reply.
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    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
      Yep. Many will say: "well, slavery ended 150 years ago". Sure, but Jim Crow laws were around until the 1960s, the bigotry didn't end there and the consequences of slavery and a continued white supremacist country, which is what the US was for 400 years, don't disappear in one or two generations.

      Originally Posted by blackfootprincesswarrior View Post

      I do believe that Whites will never understand the damage slavery does to a people. What did to the Black American race of people. Slavery was a brutal institution. It was ugly, harsh and generationally damaging.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

        Yep. Many will say: "well, slavery ended 150 years ago". Sure, but Jim Crow laws were around until the 1960s, the bigotry didn't end there and the consequences of slavery and a continued white supremacist country, which is what the US was for 400 years, don't disappear in one or two generations.
        WOW, so what IS the world like in the 2100s? Have they started building the enterprise yet?

        Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
          Well, I was including the Colonial times before there was an actual USA, not the century after there wasn't a USA anymore.

          Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

          WOW, so what IS the world like in the 2100s? Have they started building the enterprise yet?

          Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Patrician
    Regarding a description of the right to carry a gun - reference is here in this thread somewhere.

    1. The question of a permit to carry - not sure still whether Z has one.

    2. Reading the description of how this would be a normal thing while on watch patrol to carry the gun - It smacked of ENTITLEMENT -

    So carrying a gun then ENTITLES one to use it? Because you are on 'watch patrol' it is normal to carry and thereby you are justified in using it? Nope - even real cops have to be put through the mill if they use their guns to be sure it was justified.

    The whole scenario here just seems like Z was 'gunning for' T - out to get him = that was the purpose of Z's actions. While Z wasn't crazy enough to just assassinate T like a sniper, it is frightening the way it all played out to set this up for T to be gunned down.

    Further, I am not at all implying anyone here is racist - but this always plays to the crowd of secret and not-so-secret racists, that somehow by virtue of geneology this person was suspect from the get-go - even as the unarmed and dead victim - the gunman was thereby entitled and justified. Having a gun or a permit to carry does not entitle anyone to off someone - They are painting a picture that is wide open to 'interpretation' by elaborating on the fact that T was not a saint, and gasp he was suspended from school therefore the shooting was justified.

    Omigod he was walking on the grass???? In the rain???? Definitely a reason to get shot.

    Z sounds more and more like a vigilante -
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by Patrician View Post

      - They are painting a picture that is wide open to 'interpretation' by elaborating on the fact that T was not a saint, and gasp he was suspended from school therefore the shooting was justified.

      Omigod he was walking on the grass???? In the rain???? Definitely a reason to get shot.

      Z sounds more and more like a vigilante -
      The way you describe it, yes... Zimmerman is sounding more and more like a vigilante. Meaning you keep describing him more and more like a vigilante.

      What disturbs me is that we are describing as "Facts", things that are assumptions. This is happening on both sides. I hope the jury is smarter.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by Patrician View Post

      Omigod he was walking on the grass???? In the rain???? Definitely a reason to get shot.

      Z sounds more and more like a vigilante -
      Why stop THERE?!?!? write some wrinkles on his face that are of a #$%^&(or whatever they call it). Then he will REALLY look like a bad guy!

      Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
        Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

        Why stop THERE?!?!? write some wrinkles on his face that are of a #$%^&(or whatever they call it). Then he will REALLY look like a bad guy!

        Steve
        Huh? :confused:

        Wrinkles that are of a what?

        Terra
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

          Huh? :confused:

          Wrinkles that are of a what?

          Terra
          I thought better of the mildly cryptic description, and figured "did it really matter?" I think the message gets through.

          Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
            Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

            I thought better of the mildly cryptic description, and figured "did it really matter?" I think the message gets through.

            Steve
            Haha! If it does, it does to every body but me. But if you think better of it, maybe it is best to just leave it alone and an unknown in my mind. :p

            Terra
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            • Profile picture of the author seasoned
              Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

              Haha! If it does, it does to every body but me. But if you think better of it, maybe it is best to just leave it alone and an unknown in my mind. :p

              Terra
              The idea was that, if you can simply reveal your bias to make another guilty, why not say they have something that almost anyone would consider so horrible that they must ascribe that guilt to him/her. So I mentioned the first such thing that came to mind. Manson did it, as did many others. A 60s shirt that USED to be popular and was meant to be festive was almost bought by my step mother and some friends of hers. They didn't notice that it was straight, and not reversed, but they were horrified when they saw it and didn't buy the shirts.

              Maybe you understand it all now.

              Steve
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              • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                The idea was that, if you can simply reveal your bias to make another guilty, why not say they have something that almost anyone would consider so horrible that they must ascribe that guilt to him/her. So I mentioned the first such thing that came to mind. Manson did it, as did many others. A 60s shirt that USED to be popular and was meant to be festive was almost bought by my step mother and some friends of hers. They didn't notice that it was straight, and not reversed, but they were horrified when they saw it and didn't buy the shirts.

                Maybe you understand it all now.

                Steve
                The only thing I know is that lots of wrinkles on your face make you look old. :p

                Terra
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                • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                  In one of these interviews they are showing today Z is asked "Do you regret getting out of the car" and he said "No". Did he regret anything? "No". Then said it was all "God's plan". :/ What a complete jerk and a-hole.

                  The detective in charge of the investigation and who recommended a manslaughter charge be brought against Zimmerman said in the capias "the encounter between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin was ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman, if Zimmerman had remained in his vehicle and waited the arrival of law enforcement or conversely if he had identified himself to Martin as a concerned citizen and initiated dialog in an effort to dispel each party's concern".

                  So, a life could have been spared by him simply doing a couple things such as staying in the car and also telling Trayvon who he was right away and he doesn't regret anything. Instead he gets out of the truck and even after being told not to follow TM continues walking in the direction he was ( it's in the walk through video ) and then when Trayvon confronts him instead of telling him who he was he reaches into his pocket. That's why he was hit folks. Not because Trayvon in a punk or thug. There's never been any evidence of Trayvon being violent. There has been evidence of Zimmerman being violent though. And very stupid.
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                  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                    Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                    In one of these interviews they are showing today Z is asked "Do you regret getting out of the car" and he said "No". Did he regret anything? "No". Then said it was all "God's plan". :/ What a complete jerk and a-hole.

                    The detective in charge of the investigation and who recommended a manslaughter charge be brought against Zimmerman said in the capias "the encounter between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin was ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman, if Zimmerman had remained in his vehicle and waited the arrival of law enforcement or conversely if he had identified himself to Martin as a concerned citizen and initiated dialog in an effort to dispel each party's concern".

                    So, a life could have been spared by him simply doing a couple things such as staying in the car and also telling Trayvon who he was right away and he doesn't regret anything. Instead he gets out of the truck and even after being told not to follow TM continues walking in the direction he was ( it's in the walk through video ) and then when Trayvon confronts him instead of telling him who he was he reaches into his pocket. That's why he was hit folks. Not because Trayvon in a punk or thug. There's never been any evidence of Trayvon being violent. There has been evidence of Zimmerman being violent though. And very stupid.
                    And yet you say h should have called 911, etc... apparently, the reason why he got out of the car was to check the street sign. I guess E-911 *****IF***** it worked right, could have been used. BELIEVE ME, I did some work with it and, at least about 9 years ago, IT HAD PROBLEMS. And it could have been prevented by trevon NOT trespassing, or NOT loitering, or NOT ambushing, or NOT punching, or NOT fighting, etc... Trevon didn't care. MOST such communities HAVE SIGNS, so trevon could ASSUME! Do you think that if he said he was part of neighborhood watch(******DUH*******) and reached into his pocket, that trevon would have acted ANY differently? TREVON assaulted him, jumping out and demanding "what is your problem". He said he didn't have a problem and trevon said "you do now", and decked him. GIVE ME A BREAK!

                    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    What a thread.
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  • Profile picture of the author hitesh93
    I think this is my first venture into the 'off-topic' world here at WF.
    I don't know if any of you saw the news regarding testimonies today? Basically the cops testified that Z is innocent and it was a clear case of self defense. Apparently Martin attacked him, knocked him down and told him that he would kill Z.
    Neighbor says he saw T beating him and Z yelling for help before the gunshot. Seems like the case is done already?

    Here's one of the 2 reports I looked over if anyone is interested:
    http://tampa.cbslocal.com/2013/07/01...-kill-someone/
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  • Profile picture of the author ronrule
    If NBC hadn't edited the 911 tapes to make Zimmerman sound like a racist, this wouldn't have even been on the news. The story would have been some punk threw a punch at the neighborhood watch and got his ass shot. They'd have given Zimmerman a medal and a gold plated Desert Eagle for eliminating the problem.

    Once the media brought race into it, everyone started choosing sides. Frankly I'm shocked by some of the comments I've seen on this thread, from people making the assumption that this was somehow racially motivated. It wasn't. That was the media. The only "race problems" we have in this country are with the people who get hung up on race, and try to spin a street brawl into a "hate crime". Take that crap out of the picture and focus on the facts of the case, not how the fact that the people involved were different races, it has nothing to do with it.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    He has a grandparent that is black! He is hispanic. It is rumored that he is a big brother to a black in the big brother program. It is amazing that people assume he is racist! WHAT? If you are black the assume you aren't racist, and if you are not black they assume you ARE? NEITHER is true!

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author SandraLarkin
    Banned
    Things people do not know about Zimmerman:

    Rescued a black homeless man from being beaten by a white man, and made sure the kid was prosecuted(It was a police officers son).


    Mentored black children.


    Has a black grand parent.


    Etc.


    The media just continues to lie about this to the public for some reason.


    He NEVER continued to follow Martin after he was told not to. Another media lie. Zimmerman should be fully exonerated. All evidence is fully, 100% against Martin from what I have saw. I have been following this case closely.
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    • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
      Originally Posted by SandraLarkin View Post

      Things people do not know about Zimmerman:

      Rescued a black homeless man from being beaten by a white man, and made sure the kid was prosecuted(It was a police officers son).


      Mentored black children.


      Has a black grand parent.


      Etc.


      The media just continues to lie about this to the public for some reason.


      He NEVER continued to follow Martin after he was told not to. Another media lie. Zimmerman should be fully exonerated. All evidence is fully, 100% against Martin from what I have saw. I have been following this case closely.
      What I don't understand is why you are bringing up race? By doing so, you are just as bad as the media that you are railing against seeing as how the media made it a race case to begin with.

      Race has nothing to do with the case and our opinions should not be based upon it, in my opinion.

      Terra
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      • Profile picture of the author KimW
        Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

        What I don't understand is why you are bringing up race? By doing so, you are just as bad as the media that you are railing against seeing as how the media made it a race case to begin with.

        Race has nothing to do with the case and our opinions should not be based upon it, in my opinion.

        Terra
        Terra,
        this thread is full of people that continually keep harping on race,even going as far as to making it a black white issue when neither of those involved are even white.

        She is responding to previous posts,not bringing in new issues.
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        • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
          Originally Posted by KimW View Post

          Terra,
          this thread is full of people that continually keep harping on race,even going as far as to making it a black white issue when neither of those involved are even white.

          She is responding to previous posts,not bringing in new issues.
          Hmmm, I must have missed all of this mentioned previously in this thread, then.

          Things people do not know about Zimmerman:

          Rescued a black homeless man from being beaten by a white man, and made sure the kid was prosecuted(It was a police officers son).


          Mentored black children.


          Has a black grand parent.
          I did read the black grandparent thing, but I don't remember the others.

          Terra
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          • Profile picture of the author KimW
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            • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
              Originally Posted by KimW View Post

              Terra,
              Honestly,no offense meant,but if you do not see it previously,then I do not see how you see it in this post.
              http://www.warriorforum.com/off-topi...ml#post8236312
              Well, now you have gone and lost me Kim.

              I didn't say I do not see it, I said I must have missed them, meaning, I didn't read the other posts that made mention of the facts that she listed.

              Are we talking about the same thing? :confused:


              Terra
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              • Profile picture of the author KimW
                Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                Well, now you have gone and lost me Kim.

                I didn't say I do not see it, I said I must have missed them, meaning, I didn't read the other posts that made mention of the facts that she listed.

                Are we talking about the same thing? :confused:


                Terra
                No Terra, Sorry,I assumed you were saying you had read the other posts and had not seen the references.
                I actually did not like how I may have comea cross in the post you quoted and deleted it,but I see I was too late.
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                • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                  Originally Posted by KimW View Post

                  No Terra, Sorry,I assumed you were saying you had read the other posts and had not seen the references.
                  I actually did not like how I may have comea cross in the post you quoted and deleted it,but I see I was too late.
                  Whoops!

                  Ha! I always seem to beat you on the draw.

                  Terra
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        • Profile picture of the author SandraLarkin
          Banned
          Originally Posted by KimW View Post

          Terra,
          this thread is full of people that continually keep harping on race,even going as far as to making it a black white issue when neither of those involved are even white.

          She is responding to previous posts,not bringing in new issues.
          Yes, and that is the most absurd part.


          Zimmerman is not even white, however this is CLEARLY created by the media, a black v white case fully CREATED by them.


          The simple fact the media is trying to influence a case reporting sensationalist themes that incite hate and anger without reporting any facts whatsoever makes you wonder -- why?
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      • Profile picture of the author SandraLarkin
        Banned
        Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

        What I don't understand is why you are bringing up race? By doing so, you are just as bad as the media that you are railing against seeing as how the media made it a race case to begin with.

        Race has nothing to do with the case and our opinions should not be based upon it, in my opinion.

        Terra

        I am bringing up race because this is clearly a "race" case. To deny that it is is to deny reality.


        Most people believe this is a race case and believe Zimmerman is some racist KKK member who shot an innocent child.

        That is simply not the case. Once people can get through him not being racist they can being to see the facts, and not what they have already made up in their minds as guilty or innocent.


        However, the media has made this out to be a trigger happy racist white bigot who killed an innocent child.
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        • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
          Originally Posted by SandraLarkin View Post

          I am bringing up race because this is clearly a "race" case. To deny that it is is to deny reality.


          Most people believe this is a race case and believe Zimmerman is some racist KKK member who shot an innocent child.

          That is simply not the case. Once people can get through him not being racist they can being to see the facts, and not what they have already made up in their minds as guilty or innocent.


          However, the media has made this out to be a trigger happy racist white bigot who killed an innocent child.
          That is certainly true!

          I am in agreement with you, by the way, that race should not be a factor and the media spun it that way.

          The reasons?

          Can you say agendas, and back pockets?

          Terra
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by SandraLarkin View Post

          I am bringing up race because this is clearly a "race" case. To deny that it is is to deny reality.


          Most people believe this is a race case and believe Zimmerman is some racist KKK member who shot an innocent child.

          That is simply not the case. Once people can get through him not being racist they can being to see the facts, and not what they have already made up in their minds as guilty or innocent.


          However, the media has made this out to be a trigger happy racist white bigot who killed an innocent child.
          PLEASE! State just ******ONE****** legitimate fact that says this was because zimmerman was racist. Just ONE! of course, if ANYONE could be made to seem white, and another can't be. Or one IS a non hispanic white, some RACIST people will always try to pull race into it!

          Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author SandraLarkin
            Banned
            Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

            PLEASE! State just ******ONE****** legitimate fact that says this was because zimmerman was racist. Just ONE! of course, if ANYONE could be made to seem white, and another can't be. Or one IS a non hispanic white, some RACIST people will always try to pull race into it!

            Steve
            Umm I'm not saying that all?


            I'm saying that is what the media has made this case. Absolutely zero facts in the case have anything to do with Zimmerman being racist.


            The media would have you all believe other wise.
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        • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
          I don't recall anyone saying anything about Zimmerman being a KKK member racist type. No body! The main claim is that he was racial profiling Trayvon and to this day I don't see any proof that he wasn't. The truth is he thought this kid was a "suspect" simply because he was walking home in a hoodie apparently and many people think the fact that he was a black kid added to him thinking this. If you don't think cops racially profile people you are badly mistaken and Zimmerman was a big wannabe cop.

          By the way, he can be guilty of racial profiling and still have black relatives and have helped certain black people in his past.

          Originally Posted by SandraLarkin View Post

          Most people believe this is a race case and believe Zimmerman is some racist KKK member who shot an innocent child.

          That is simply not the case. Once people can get through him not being racist they can being to see the facts, and not what they have already made up in their minds as guilty or innocent.


          However, the media has made this out to be a trigger happy racist white bigot who killed an innocent child.
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          • Profile picture of the author KimW
            Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

            I don't recall anyone saying anything about Zimmerman being a KKK member racist type. No body! The main claim is that he was racial profiling Trayvon and to this day I don't see any proof that he wasn't. The truth is he thought this kid was a "suspect" simply because he was walking home in a hoodie apparently and many people think the fact that he was a black kid added to him thinking this. If you don't think cops racially profile people you are badly mistaken and Zimmerman was a big wannabe cop.

            By the way, he can be guilty of racial profiling and still have black relatives and have helped certain black people in his past.
            Tim,
            Of course they do. Why? Because it is fact that specific groups have certain characteristics.

            Those characteristics do not have to be bad, or good for that matter,it just
            means they are related to a group.

            And it is certainly not restricted to one group. They racially profile black,whites,asian, hispanics, you name it.
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            • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
              Kim, I don't think the idea of racial profiling and equality go hand in hand. Whites are very rarely racially profiled. Sure, other races are such as hispanics and muslims, but whites not so much. Plus, I don't think it is a good idea to use statistics of many to take away the freedoms of individuals.

              Originally Posted by KimW View Post

              Tim,
              Of course they do. Why? Because it is fact that specific groups have certain characteristics.

              Those characteristics do not have to be bad, or good for that matter,it just
              means they are related to a group.

              And it is certainly not restricted to one group. They racially profile black,whites,asian, hispanics, you name it.
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              • Profile picture of the author KimW
                Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                Kim, I don't think the idea of racial profiling and equality go hand in hand. Whites are very rarely racially profiled. Sure, other races are such as hispanics and muslims, but whites not so much. Plus, I don't think it is a good idea to use statistics of many to take away the freedoms of individuals.
                I believe whites are as much as any group.
                You don't.
                We just agree to disagree.

                And I certainly did not say profiling and equality go hand in hand, I was simply agreeing with you that racial profiling exists.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Tim,

    If I were doing that, EVEN where I have my house, you can bet I would be stopped ALSO! I was once harassed by a police officer FOR NO REASON! HE said it was because I was there so early in the morning! I only got ONE warning!!!!!!!! He said that the next time I am stopped by a police officer, I should stay in my car because I COULD HAVE BEEN SHOT!!!!! I am NOT kidding!

    He even asked me questions like where I came from. I told him, though I was not THAT sure about the street as I knew how to get there. He called me a liar and said that street was one I would pass if I kept going. I checked later, and found we were BOTH right! I don't know WHAT his problem was but, as I said, he let me go, and I just wanted to go to bed!

    Was it RACIAL? Well, I am a middle class white and was driving a nice middle class car. HE was white. I probably looked like I could have lived there.

    I have had such a thing FOUR TIMES! TWO were "for a reason". The other two? WHO KNOWS!?!?!?

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
      So, because of your one example, that negates any possibilities that racial profiling actually exits? Not sure what your point is.
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      Tim,

      If I were doing that, EVEN where I have my house, you can bet I would be stopped ALSO! I was once harassed by a police officer FOR NO REASON! HE said it was because I was there so early in the morning! I only got ONE warning!!!!!!!! He said that the next time I am stopped by a police officer, I should stay in my car because I COULD HAVE BEEN SHOT!!!!! I am NOT kidding!

      He even asked me questions like where I came from. I told him, though I was not THAT sure about the street as I knew how to get there. He called me a liar and said that street was one I would pass if I kept going. I checked later, and found we were BOTH right! I don't know WHAT his problem was but, as I said, he let me go, and I just wanted to go to bed!

      Was it RACIAL? Well, I am a middle class white and was driving a nice middle class car. HE was white. I probably looked like I could have lived there.

      I have had such a thing FOUR TIMES! TWO were "for a reason". The other two? WHO KNOWS!?!?!?

      Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

        So, because of your one example, that negates any possibilities that racial profiling actually exits? Not sure what your point is.
        NO, it *****OBLITERATES***** your point that conditions don't matter, and that whites are so privileged!

        BTW that is one point that fits PERFECTLY, etc... He EVEN almost SHOT ME! My father had the SAME type of thing. I have had WORSE with blacks, asians, hispanics. And NO, I didn't even say a word. BTW I have asian relatives. For what it is worth, I HAVE had friends in every group.

        Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
    Wow.. how the hell did I miss this thread?!!!

    I have been following this trial since day 1 (same as I did with the Anthony/Arias trials -- which, might I add, that my prediction rating so far is 100%)

    EVERY SINGLE WITNESS for the prosecution has been in favor of Z.

    I honestly don't even know why this is at trial.

    The simple facts that:

    1, Zimmerman NOT ONCE changed or altered his story of how it went down.

    2, Every witness called so far has only helped Z.

    3, STAND YOUR GROUND..........

    4, "Creepy ass cracker" -- need I say more?

    5, LEGALLY LICENSED TO CARRY.........

    I mean wtf.. the list goes on & on..

    Everything Z has said from the beginning collaborates his version of events.

    Find him not guilty & be done with it. Also, prepare for the race riots when it happens.

    After all, o'Bummer/Sharpton/Jackson.. they all had to stick their nose in it and make it about race.

    What ever happened to innocent until PROVEN guilty???

    "If I had a son......."

    THEN, when "creepy ass cracker" came out in court, all of a sudden they started claiming it had nothing to do with race at all.

    That's hilarious.

    Now that the record shows that Trayvon was indeed racist, all of a sudden race wasn't an issue.. ha..........

    Also hilarious, was Rachel's response to the question "You don't think "cracker" is a racist remark?"

    "uh... nope....."

    lulz........................

    FREE G.Z.
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
    PS.....

    Nancy Grace is one of THE biggest flip-floppers I've ever seen.

    Turn your boob-tube to HLN right now and see what I mean... wow....

    1 day she is all for the defense. The next, she is all for the prosecution..

    This media has tainted the shit out of this trial.

    There is NO WAY that he is going to receive a fair trial.

    While I might not agree with how the defense opened (the knock knock joke) I completely agree with the meaning behind that joke.

    "Knock Knock"

    "Who's there?"

    "George Zimmerman"

    "George Zimmerman who?"

    "Good - you're on the jury"

    ...................................

    Even worse -- no matter HOW the verdict comes back, Z is DEAD!!

    If he is found not guilty, he will be murdered by the Black Panthers in the streets.

    If he is found guilty, he will be murdered by the Black Panthers in jail.

    He is screwed.. Royally.....
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  • Profile picture of the author Patrician
    Originally Posted by Whos That Guru View Post

    PS.....

    Even worse -- no matter HOW the verdict comes back, Z is DEAD!!

    If he is found not guilty, he will be murdered by the Black Panthers in the streets.

    If he is found guilty, he will be murdered by the Black Panthers in jail.

    He is screwed.. Royally.....
    yeah - that doesn't sound racist at all.

    so i guess then it is ok for me to say that Trevon wouldn't even be dead if he wasn't black.

    nobody would have even noticed him.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by Patrician View Post

      yeah - that doesn't sound racist at all.

      so i guess then it is ok for me to say that Trevon wouldn't even be dead if he wasn't black.

      nobody would have even noticed him.
      Well, he is dead ONLY because of his attitude! As for the bit about the black panthers? THEY SAID THEY WOULD KILL HIM if he was declared innocent. Don't forget what happened with Rodney King!!!!!!!!!!! HEY, one of the fires they lit was like 6 blocks from my HOME!!!!! In the area I lived, the police passed an ENFORCED CURFEW because of the violence! So I remember that VERY well, and saw it FIRST HAND! Interesting how SO many forget about things like THIS guy: Attack on Reginald Denny - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

      I NEVER have! GRANTED, it has ONLY been about TWENTY ONE years, but I remember it like it was yesterday.

      Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
        Oh yeah. He was wearing a hoodie. Bad attitude. He was walking on the grass at night! How dare he? He asked a stranger why he was following him. The gall. He was drinking Arizona tea and eating skittles. Where was his manners for not sharing with good old Zimmer? Yep, it's all Trayvon's fault. :/ By the way, I like wearing a hoodie when it's cold and raining outside. Are you going to shoot me if you see me around?

        Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

        Well, he is dead ONLY because of his attitude!
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Ok, I see that reason has left this thread.

          On to greener pastures.

          And now...the band plays on.....


          Added; I'm going where people are intelligent and thoughtful. Comments on Youtube videos.
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          What if they're not stars? What if they are holes poked in the top of a container so we can breath?
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          • Profile picture of the author KimW
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            Ok, I see that reason has left this thread.

            On to greener pastures.

            And now...the band plays on.....


            Added; I'm going where people are intelligent and thoughtful. Comments on Youtube videos.
            Which is what happened in the original thread ,which is why I have for the most part stayed out of this one.


            Of course,the highlighted part of your post almost made me spew at the monitor!
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

          Oh yeah. He was wearing a hoodie. Bad attitude. He was walking on the grass at night! How dare he? He asked a stranger why he was following him. The gall. He was drinking Arizona tea and eating skittles. Where was his manners for not sharing with good old Zimmer? Yep, it's all Trayvon's fault. :/ By the way, I like wearing a hoodie when it's cold and raining outside. Are you going to shoot me if you see me around?
          He wasn't walking on the grass! He was loitering there, looking through windows. He didn't ask why the guy was following him. He SAID "what is your problem!"! It SOUNDS like a question, but a question waits for a response. He followed it up with "You HAVE a problem NOW!, <SUCKER PUNCH>"

          Eating skittles!?!?!?!? Are you SURE? If he was, then there is ANOTHER LIE from the "prosecution"! So WHAT IS IT? Articles: Trayvon Martin's Final Hour

          As for you and your hoodie? If you loiter on my property, and/or look in my windows, I may call 911! If the area turns hostile, and you make a noise, I might go out WITH A GUN to check. Someone ALREADY stole my FREON! If another does it, he might get a SHOCK! If you try to break in, you might hit the floor before you come in 3 feet. So your answer is ****MAYBE****!

          Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
            Good lord. If you break into my house I would shoot you. What's the maybe for? That wasn't my question of course.

            As usual you get facts wrong. I haven't heard one person say he was looking through windows. Or loitering. By the way, you are simply saying what Z said. I don't believe every word he says. I think he's lying on some things. I'm glad you think his words are gold and therefor are all facts now.

            Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

            He wasn't walking on the grass! He was loitering there, looking through windows. He didn't ask why the guy was following him. He SAID "what is your problem!"! It SOUNDS like a question, but a question waits for a response. He followed it up with "You HAVE a problem NOW!, <SUCKER PUNCH>"

            Eating skittles!?!?!?!? Are you SURE? If he was, then there is ANOTHER LIE from the "prosecution"! So WHAT IS IT? Articles: Trayvon Martin's Final Hour

            As for you and your hoodie? If you loiter on my property, and/or look in my windows, I may call 911! If the area turns hostile, and you make a noise, I might go out WITH A GUN to check. Someone ALREADY stole my FREON! If another does it, he might get a SHOCK! If you try to break in, you might hit the floor before you come in 3 feet. So your answer is ****MAYBE****!

            Steve
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            • Profile picture of the author hitesh93
              Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

              Good lord. If you break into my house I would shoot you. What's the maybe for? That wasn't my question of course.

              As usual you get facts wrong. I haven't heard one person say he was looking through windows. Or loitering. By the way, you are simply saying what Z said. I don't believe every word he says. I think he's lying on some things. I'm glad you think his words are gold and therefor are all facts now.
              Tim I see your point - but I think that's where the disagreement comes from. You're saying that Zimmerman is lying at some points. And it is possible that he might be.
              However, that is ethically and legally a wrong argument. Zimmerman's account is the only one we have right now other than one eyewitness. Legally speaking, the burden is on prosecution to prove the Zimmerman is lying. So far, there is no reason or evidence to suggest that he is. In such a case, even if he was lying, he is legally innocent since we have no evidence to show that he is. To insist that he is lying despite all the evidence that validates his statement is not the correct view to take on this.

              With that aside, so far the evidence provided DOES seem to vindicate his account - from the eyewitness account and forensics to the circumstantial evidence and the cops' testimony.

              Is he lying? Is he not? I don't know. But looking at the evidence, there is no reason to believe that he is. Given Martin's comments to his friend, his immediate behavior before the event and what we know of him, I can see him starting the confrontation. The 911 call proves that Zimmerman was no longer following him and was returning to his vehicle. Should Zimmerman have followed him and gotten out of his truck in the first place? Maybe, maybe not. But even if he did, it is not a legally, nor morally wrong action.
              But should Martin have attacked Zimmerman as per the only 3 testimonies we have? Definitely not. That is legally and morally punishable.
              Overall, based on the evidence available, it DOES seem like a case of self defense and seems to me that Martin was much more at fault here.

              Note that I'm only making these statements based on my look at the testimonies and evidence, not because I have a pre-conceived bias towards one or another of the people involved in this.
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              • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                Well, I think his own interviews show inconsistencies that bring into question his honesty. For example:

                * saying Trayvon jumped out of the bushes in one interview. The bushes are too small to jump out of.

                * Z said he shot Trayvon and then Trayvon sat up and said something like "You got me". This brings a couple questions to mind. How do you sit up when you are the one on top? And would someone who was shot in the chest say something like that? Others have brought up what GZ has claimed TM said here and when he first saw him as something out of a movie. They don't sound plausible at all. They sound made up to embellish a story.

                * Also, Z said he was being smothered with Trayvon's hands. Z had a bloody nose and there was no blood at all on Trayvons hands.

                * Speaking of blood, if Z shot TM while he TM was on top of him, why wasn't his shirt and jacket covered with blood?

                * After GZ shot TM he says he pushed him off of him and then got on the back of TM holding down his arms. Someone came outside and said according to GZ "Do you want me to call 9-11?" and GZ said "No, help me". This seems ridiculous. He shot him at point blank range and the doctors estimated TM died within 20 seconds. This is the most unbelievable part of his story in my opinion. He needed to get on top of a guy who was just shot in the chest and died within 20 seconds? Much more plausable is that GZ was already on top. By the way, somewhere in the 20 seconds Trayvon sat up and said something according to GZ. lol

                * A medical examiner said GZ's injuries were insignificant. She also said he may have only been hit once in the face. GZ claimed he was hit a couple dozen times. And the so called "slamming" of the head could have been one impact only and she thought the word slamming was not appropriate for the injuries sustained.

                * GZ said he didn't realize he had hit TM. He thought he may have missed. I don't buy this at all.

                There are other inconsistencies also. I think he is lying and since the trial is still going on I don't think I am "ethically" or "legally" wrong yet. Even if GZ is aquited, I don't see how I am ethically wrong to think he lying. :/

                By the way, it has been established already the GZ kept on following TM even after he was told not to. GZ admitted this in the video interview. Of course he didn't say he was following TM. He just said he kept going in the same direction to see what street it was. This seems hard to believe also. There are only three streets in that area and GZ was very familiar with that area.

                Detective Serino told GZ “That was a kid with a future, a kid with folks that care. Not a goon. In his mind’s eye, he perceived you as a threat. He has every right to defend himself.”

                “You wanted to catch him. You wanted to catch the bad guy, the f—–g punk who can’t get away,” Serino said.

                Zimmerman replied, “I wasn’t following him; I was just going in the same direction he was.”

                Serino responded, “That’s following.”

                Originally Posted by hitesh93 View Post

                Tim I see your point - but I think that's where the disagreement comes from. You're saying that Zimmerman is lying at some points. And it is possible that he might be.
                However, that is ethically and legally a wrong argument. Zimmerman's account is the only one we have right now other than one eyewitness. Legally speaking, the burden is on prosecution to prove the Zimmerman is lying. So far, there is no reason or evidence to suggest that he is. In such a case, even if he was lying, he is legally innocent since we have no evidence to show that he is. To insist that he is lying despite all the evidence that validates his statement is not the correct view to take on this.
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                • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                  Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                  Well, I think his own interviews show inconsistencies that bring into question his honesty. For example:

                  * saying Trayvon jumped out of the bushes in one interview. The bushes are too small to jump out of.
                  How do you know what he called a bush, or what size the bushes were in the precise area?

                  * Z said he shot Trayvon and then Trayvon sat up and said something like "You got me". This brings a couple questions to mind. How do you sit up when you are the one on top.
                  Who is to say what happened in a fight. Obviously, SOMETHING changed for it to get to that point.

                  * Also, Z said he was being smothered with Trayvon's hands. Z had a bloody nose and there was no blood at all on Trayvons hands.
                  Generally, ESPECIALLY in a fight, NOSES don't bleed. Blood vessels and/or other things in the nostril area do. It could have been a while before blood appeared, especially if he were down on the ground.

                  * Speaking of blood, if Z shot TM while he TM was on top of him, why wasn't his shirt and jacket covered with blood?
                  Again, it is possible it could be explained.

                  * After GZ shot TM he says he pushed him off of him and then got on the back of TM holding down his arms. Someone came outside and said according to GZ "Do you want me to call 9-11?" and GZ said "No, help me". This seems ridiculous. He shot him at point blank range and the doctors estimated TM died within 20 seconds. This is the most unbelievable part of his story in my opinion. He needed to get on top of a guy who was just shot in the chest and died within 20 seconds? Much more plausable is that GZ was already on top. By the way, somewhere in the 20 seconds Trayvon sat up and said something according to GZ. lol
                  It IS possible to shoot someone and have them live quite a while, or even survive. Outside of knowing when a DEFINITELY fatal blow, like a knife to a vital part of the heart, slitting the aorta, or the carotid artery, how could they say 20 seconds?

                  * A medical examiner said GZ's injuries were insignificant. She also said he may have only been hit once in the face. GZ claimed he was hit a couple dozen times. And the so called "slamming" of the head could have been one impact only and she thought the word slamming was not appropriate for the injuries sustained.
                  Is this the same person that diagnosed from a few PHOTOS? If a doctor prescribes that way, they could LOSE THEIR LICENSE!

                  There are other inconsistencies also. I think he is lying and since the trial is still going on I don't think I am "ethically" or "legally" wrong yet.
                  Ethically you certainly ARE wrong! His LIFE is on the line, and there is NO PROOF!

                  By the way, it has been established already the GZ kept on following TM even after he was told not to. GZ admitted this in the video interview. Of course he didn't say he was following TM. He just said he kept going in the same direction to see what street it was.
                  What did you expect him to do? Say "OH FORGET IT?". REMEMBER my story about that cop and how I wasn't sure about the street because I knew how to get there? SOUND FAMILIAR?

                  This seems hard to believe also. There are only three streets in that area and GZ was very familiar of that area.
                  I've BEEN there! ALSO, I was in a development once, turned the wrong street, and the homes LOOKED THE SAME! I even went to the other street to check. IDENTICAL!

                  Detective Serino told GZ “That was a kid with a future, a kid with folks that care. Not a goon. In his mind’s eye, he perceived you as a threat. He has every right to defend himself.”
                  SO WHAT!?!?!?!? You just said that he said TREVON IS GUILTY! NO, he DOESN'T have a right to fight, or EVEN BE IN THAT AREA! Is that a racist statement? NOPE! It would be racist if I said he COULD be because I CAN'T EITHER! If he wanted to defend himself, he should have defended himself, ****NOT**** acted with undue aggression. And WHO was that "detective" to even make such a claim? OH, OK, he was a family friend that was maybe 17 and often was around treyvon? If so, WHY was he on the police force? If NOT, then HOW COULD HE KNOW? It is WELL KNOWN that many teenagers aren't necessarily as they come off. Then again, many adults aren't either.

                  So you are going to take some stupid off hand comment by a guy, give it weight because they call him a "detective" and use it to send a guy up the river and make people even MORE upset ONLY because he happened to be black?!?!?!? MAN!!!!!

                  If you want to listen to a comment, how about the comment his FRIEND said HE made about the "Crazy ass cracker"? That SCREAMS that trevon was ANGRY and RACIST!

                  Steve
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                  • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                    Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                    How do you know what he called a bush, or what size the bushes were in the precise area?
                    Well, I saw the video of that area of course. There simply aren't bushes to jump out of.

                    I'm not going to go back and forth with you on each issue. My points make sense in my opinion and yours don't.
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                    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                      GZ said he didn't realize he had hit TM. He thought he may have missed. I don't buy this at all.
                      Having had the experience of getting shot and the experience of shooting at someone, I can understand that.
                      Personally I'm such a terrible shot, that I won't own a gun anymore.
                      But I still won't say weather Z is guilty or not. That is up to the jury and if we except the judicial system, then we have to except their verdict.
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                • Profile picture of the author hitesh93
                  Unfortunately Tim I think your bias is showing because I earnestly think you are significantly stretching at this point to try and make a case. Some of the statements are either ignorant (hopefully) or intentionally biased (I hope not the case with you).

                  Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                  Well, I think his own interviews show inconsistencies that bring into question his honesty. For example:

                  * saying Trayvon jumped out of the bushes in one interview. The bushes are too small to jump out of.
                  No they are not. If T was crouching slightly and jumped through the bushes, anyone would describe it as 'jumping out of the bushes'. They don't need to 7 feet high and cover him completely for the expression to be true.

                  Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                  * Z said he shot Trayvon and then Trayvon sat up and said something like "You got me". This brings a couple questions to mind. How do you sit up when you are the one on top? And would someone who was shot in the chest say something like that? Others have brought up what GZ has claimed TM said here and when he first saw him as something out of a movie. They don't sound plausible at all. They sound made up to embellish a story.
                  Again, you are either showing ignorance or bias. T was punding on Z as per eyewitness account. He would be leadning forward slightly to perform the 'ground pound'. On being shot he jerked back and straightened out - something ANYONE would describe as 'he sat up'.
                  And yes, people who get shot say all sorts of things. Your ideas on 'why would a guy say that' means nothing. T got shot and said 'you got me' - that's perfectly consistent with what usually happens in cases of rage induced violence and gang violence. The cops testified on this matter already.
                  And finally, Zimmerman could've just not added that in if he was making up a story. In fact, the minute details like this show that he is recounting from memory.

                  Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                  * Also, Z said he was being smothered with Trayvon's hands. Z had a bloody nose and there was no blood at all on Trayvons hands.
                  Autospy showed T had bruised knuckles and blood on hands consistent with punching someone with the intention to cause great harm. Ignorance or bias again.

                  Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                  * Speaking of blood, if Z shot TM while he TM was on top of him, why wasn't his shirt and jacket covered with blood?
                  Because blood doesn't spurt out like a fountain like some C-grade Bollywood movie when someone is shot. It slowly seeps out of the wound. Had T fallen over onto Z and laid there for a bit, there would be a chance of that happening, but in most cases of shooting people don't even realize how severe the wound is for a bit. And this even depends on the clothing if there was an outer jacket that was blocking the wound, or the body slumps over in certain ways, almost no blood seeps out immediately. This is precisely why Z was surprised to learn that T was dead as shown in police records.
                  Ignorance of actual gunshot wound I hope?

                  Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                  * After GZ shot TM he says he pushed him off of him and then got on the back of TM holding down his arms. Someone came outside and said according to GZ "Do you want me to call 9-11?" and GZ said "No, help me". This seems ridiculous. He shot him at point blank range and the doctors estimated TM died within 20 seconds. This is the most unbelievable part of his story in my opinion. He needed to get on top of a guy who was just shot in the chest and died within 20 seconds? Much more plausable is that GZ was already on top. By the way, somewhere in the 20 seconds Trayvon sat up and said something according to GZ. lol
                  At this point I can't really claim ignorance on your part. Seems like outright bias now.
                  T was on top leaning forward punching Z. Eyewitness account proves this.
                  Z shot T, who jerked back and 'sat up', said 'you got me' and slumps to the ground. The other person asks 'do you want me to call 9-11', Z blurts out 'help me'.
                  Doctors estimate T died within 20 seconds. Z didn't know that and as testified by the cops, was surprised to know that T died and was mortified about it.

                  Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                  * A medical examiner said GZ's injuries were insignificant. She also said he may have only been hit once in the face. GZ claimed he was hit a couple dozen times. And the so called "slamming" of the head could have been one impact only and she thought the word slamming was not appropriate for the injuries sustained.
                  Bias bias bias. The actual medical report says that Z had gashes on his head consistent with repeated trauma. It couldve been just 2-3 hits into the cement but don't try to minimize this. If someone was sitting on top of you and smashed your head into the cement 2-3 times you wouldn't claim that it was just a minor thing.
                  Z was given stitches on the head to close the wounds, and he had a broken nose to go with it.

                  Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                  * GZ said he didn't realize he had hit TM. He thought he may have missed. I don't buy this at all.
                  Of course you don't. Z is already guilty in your books and the bias is clear to see. Z said when he FIRST shot, T jerked back and said you got me. Z was not sure if he'd hit T. When T fell over, of course Z knew he had shot him. You're twisting the verbage on a very straightforward event.

                  Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                  There are other inconsistencies also. I think he is lying and since the trial is still going on I don't think I am "ethically" or "legally" wrong yet. Even if GZ is aquited, I don't see how I am ethically wrong to think he lying. :/
                  Err yes you are ethicaly and legally wrong to discount the ONLY available account, the ONLY eyewitness account and the consistent evidence. Legally, Z is innocent unless there is significant evidence to counter his stance that T was the aggressor and he acted in self defense. So far there is none, and you are bent upon discounting the only 2 actual accounts we have of the event.

                  Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                  By the way, it has been established already the GZ kept on following TM even after he was told not to. GZ admitted this in the video interview. Of course he didn't say he was following TM. He just said he kept going in the same direction to see what street it was. This seems hard to believe also. There are only three streets in that area and GZ was very familiar with that area.
                  He said the 911 operator told him to stop following. Z agreed to not follow. He was asked where he was specifically and he went to the closest intersection to look at the street name. You make it sound like he followed T another 50 feet. He simply took a few extra steps towards the intersection while T had doubled back to attack the 'cracker ass' he'd spotted earlier.


                  Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                  Detective Serino told GZ "That was a kid with a future, a kid with folks that care. Not a goon. In his mind's eye, he perceived you as a threat. He has every right to defend himself."

                  "You wanted to catch him. You wanted to catch the bad guy, the f---g punk who can't get away," Serino said.

                  Zimmerman replied, "I wasn't following him; I was just going in the same direction he was."

                  Serino responded, "That's following."
                  Yep, and that was the line of questioning taken up to see if GZ was guilty. After trhe questioning was over, cops let Z go and reported that there was no evidence to report that he was in the wrong.

                  I originally posted thinking people were just unaware of the facts. Now I see this is pure bias and certainly based on race in many instances. I'm done with the thread and this short venture into the offline forum. Back to work!
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                  • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                    Actually I see a lot of ignorance and bias in your responses. Your first response about the bushes is laughable. Anyone who has seen the video or photos of that area would know that he couldn't have jumped out from the bushes. Ridiculous. Not only are the bushes about two feet high, they are about 15 feet from the sidewalk where GZ said TM confronted him. So much for your knowledge of the facts. I can point out other points where you are flat out wrong but just like with Steve it is a waste of time to go through them one by one. Your mind is made up it is clear although you deny this.

                    It isn't just me making these claims by the way. Independent people are pointing out the inconsistencies. You also seem to be taking everything GZ has said as facts. I think the word that fits is gullible. Whatever. Have a good day.

                    By the way, do I think GZ is guilty of 2nd degree murder? Not sure yet. I haven't heard all the evidence. ( have you? ). I do think it is possible though. ( apparently you don't ). I think the prosecutors may have over reached in going after 2nd degree instead of manslaughter which the lead detective recommended. I think from the evidence I have seen so far, that would have been a very provable case.

                    Originally Posted by hitesh93 View Post

                    Unfortunately Tim I think your bias is showing because I earnestly think you are significantly stretching at this point to try and make a case. Some of the statements are either ignorant (hopefully) or intentionally biased (I hope not the case with you).



                    No they are not. If T was crouching slightly and jumped through the bushes, anyone would describe it as 'jumping out of the bushes'. They don't need to 7 feet high and cover him completely for the expression to be true.



                    Again, you are either showing ignorance or bias. T was punding on Z as per eyewitness account. He would be leadning forward slightly to perform the 'ground pound'. On being shot he jerked back and straightened out - something ANYONE would describe as 'he sat up'.
                    And yes, people who get shot say all sorts of things. Your ideas on 'why would a guy say that' means nothing. T got shot and said 'you got me' - that's perfectly consistent with what usually happens in cases of rage induced violence and gang violence. The cops testified on this matter already.
                    And finally, Zimmerman could've just not added that in if he was making up a story. In fact, the minute details like this show that he is recounting from memory.



                    Autospy showed T had bruised knuckles and blood on hands consistent with punching someone with the intention to cause great harm. Ignorance or bias again.



                    Because blood doesn't spurt out like a fountain like some C-grade Bollywood movie when someone is shot. It slowly seeps out of the wound. Had T fallen over onto Z and laid there for a bit, there would be a chance of that happening, but in most cases of shooting people don't even realize how severe the wound is for a bit. And this even depends on the clothing if there was an outer jacket that was blocking the wound, or the body slumps over in certain ways, almost no blood seeps out immediately. This is precisely why Z was surprised to learn that T was dead as shown in police records.
                    Ignorance of actual gunshot wound I hope?



                    At this point I can't really claim ignorance on your part. Seems like outright bias now.
                    T was on top leaning forward punching Z. Eyewitness account proves this.
                    Z shot T, who jerked back and 'sat up', said 'you got me' and slumps to the ground. The other person asks 'do you want me to call 9-11', Z blurts out 'help me'.
                    Doctors estimate T died within 20 seconds. Z didn't know that and as testified by the cops, was surprised to know that T died and was mortified about it.



                    Bias bias bias. The actual medical report says that Z had gashes on his head consistent with repeated trauma. It couldve been just 2-3 hits into the cement but don't try to minimize this. If someone was sitting on top of you and smashed your head into the cement 2-3 times you wouldn't claim that it was just a minor thing.
                    Z was given stitches on the head to close the wounds, and he had a broken nose to go with it.



                    Of course you don't. Z is already guilty in your books and the bias is clear to see. Z said when he FIRST shot, T jerked back and said you got me. Z was not sure if he'd hit T. When T fell over, of course Z knew he had shot him. You're twisting the verbage on a very straightforward event.



                    Err yes you are ethicaly and legally wrong to discount the ONLY available account, the ONLY eyewitness account and the consistent evidence. Legally, Z is innocent unless there is significant evidence to counter his stance that T was the aggressor and he acted in self defense. So far there is none, and you are bent upon discounting the only 2 actual accounts we have of the event.



                    He said the 911 operator told him to stop following. Z agreed to not follow. He was asked where he was specifically and he went to the closest intersection to look at the street name. You make it sound like he followed T another 50 feet. He simply took a few extra steps towards the intersection while T had doubled back to attack the 'cracker ass' he'd spotted earlier.




                    Yep, and that was the line of questioning taken up to see if GZ was guilty. After trhe questioning was over, cops let Z go and reported that there was no evidence to report that he was in the wrong.

                    I originally posted thinking people were just unaware of the facts. Now I see this is pure bias and certainly based on race in many instances. I'm done with the thread and this short venture into the offline forum. Back to work!
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                    • Profile picture of the author Brian John
                      Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                      Anyone who has seen the video or photos of that area would know that he couldn't have jumped out from the bushes. Ridiculous. Not only are the bushes about two feet high, they are about 15 feet from the sidewalk where GZ said TM confronted him.g GZ has said as facts. I think the word that fits is gullible. Whatever. Have a good day.
                      i watched nancy grace last night too lol, and i def agree the bushes thing is questionable tim. i couldn't see anything in those pics that looked like bushes someone could hide behind unless he was referring to the ones near the building, those are really the only bushes around i think. nearly everything else i've heard however seems fairly logical.

                      at times i find myself leaning slightly differently ways on this case. the whole thing stinks though. the ultimate shame is that some kid lost his life. regarding his other activities, maybe he wasn't off to the greatest start, but many of us have done questionable things in our youth...maybe not to the degree he was involved, but nevertheless. some saw a punk in the early stage of a career criminal, perhaps he was just a youth going through a phase trying to fit in? i don't know. all i know is that this is all terribly unfortunate. rip t
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                      • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                        I don't watch her Brian. She's one of those people that listening to her is like watching someone scratching a chalkboard with fingernails.

                        Much of Z's story does sound logical I agree, but there are definitely inconsistencies which are widely being discussed. Several. To deny this is truly ignorant.

                        By the way, I will admit that I was probably reaching on the blood being on GZ. I can see how he wouldn't be covered with blood. The part about sitting up and saying something is possible also.
                        Originally Posted by Brian John View Post

                        i watched nancy grace last night too lol, and i def agree the bushes thing is questionable tim. i couldn't see anything in those pics that looked like bushes someone could hide behind unless he was referring to the ones near the building, those are really the only bushes around i think. nearly everything else i've heard however seems fairly logical.
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                  • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                    Originally Posted by hitesh93 View Post

                    I'm done with the thread and this short venture into the offline forum. Back to work!

                    Pssssst! This is the Off Topic forum, not the offline forum.

                    Just thought you should know. It is sometimes difficult to figure out where you're going if you don't recognize where you've been. :p

                    Terra
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            • Profile picture of the author seasoned
              Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

              Good lord. If you break into my house I would shoot you. What's the maybe for? That wasn't my question of course.

              As usual you get facts wrong. I haven't heard one person say he was looking through windows. Or loitering. By the way, you are simply saying what Z said. I don't believe every word he says. I think he's lying on some things. I'm glad you think his words are gold and therefor are all facts now.
              But if you throw out the testimony of ALL real witnesses, and have no contrary evidence, you must LET HIM GO! So WHY do you persist? You just want to kill another non-full-black to "even the score"?

              Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
      Originally Posted by Patrician View Post

      yeah - that doesn't sound racist at all.

      so i guess then it is ok for me to say that Trevon wouldn't even be dead if he wasn't black.

      nobody would have even noticed him.
      huh? That makes no sense unless you meant to quote someone else's post.

      The Black Panthers are the ones who threatened to kill him.

      I'm not just putting words in their mouth.
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      • Profile picture of the author Patrician
        Originally Posted by Whos That Guru View Post

        huh? That makes no sense unless you meant to quote someone else's post.

        The Black Panthers are the ones who threatened to kill him.

        I'm not just putting words in their mouth.
        Sorry - realized after the fact that they actually said that - (not your words)
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Things on here are virtually PARADISE and the epitome of polite, compared to some on youtube.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Patrician
    Well, I am back to the fence as far as the actual case - it could be either way and could go either way - since I wasn't personally there to witness it - I will never know what actually happened.

    Steve - yeah I forgot about Reginald Denny - those were malicious perverts who got that way in part due to their environment - including racism in both directions.

    So again like most racism an entire race is painted with the same brush due to the lowest common denominator - a racist militant prison group and a bunch of street thugs, who are actually the minority.

    FEAR of the unknown is responsible in part for racism as well as for this tragedy. I am sorry for what happened to them both and that both of them used bad judgement...
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
    not sure why they keep bringing up the fact that there is none of Z's DNA under Trayvon's fingernails...

    He said Trayvon punched him & smashed his head into the ground, not scratched him.
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
    heh heh..

    HI TERRA!

    Happy 4th of July everyone!!!!! :p

    Im off to shoot off some more fireworks.. lots & lots of artillery shells to go thru, plus it seems that since I started, we have a neighborhood competition going. hahahahahah
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    • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
      Originally Posted by Whos That Guru View Post

      heh heh..

      HI TERRA!

      Happy 4th of July everyone!!!!! :p

      Im off to shoot off some more fireworks.. lots & lots of artillery shells to go thru, plus it seems that since I started, we have a neighborhood competition going. hahahahahah
      Hi Rob!

      Are you sure you weren't in my neighborhood last night? lol!

      Happy 4th to ya! Just think, you get to do it all over again tonight.

      Terra
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    Mr. Z. also forgot that he took a class that revolved around understanding "stand your ground" laws and the teacher said he was one of the better students.

    Mr. Z. went on Hannity and said he knew nothing about the stand your ground laws so I guess he forgot he took that class.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    So hurt... Now it is illegal to get out of your car, EVEN if only to find out where you are. AND, according to the context and implication, you are a criminal if you get out of your car. WOW!

    Zimmerman was at least a neighbor, and, like hurt's store example, a stranger trespassing doesn't mean he is safe from others. To follow that reasoning, a person could go break into a home, kill a person, and go out the back without ANYONE being able to stop them.

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
      The arguments to move to acquittal are very interesting. Some of the best parts of the trial so far I think. The argument in favor by the defense was very well done and the rebuttal is also. So far in this case the defense seems to have had the better lawyers but this guy doing the rebuttal is holding his own at the very least. Paraphrasing: "There's two people who were involved in this incident, one is dead and the other is a liar"!
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      • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

        The arguments to move to acquittal are very interesting. Some of the best parts of the trial so far I think. The argument in favor by the defense was very well done and the rebuttal is also. So far in this case the defense seems to have had the better lawyers but this guy doing the rebuttal is holding his own at the very least.

        Paraphrasing:


        "There's two people who were involved in this incident, one is dead and the other is a liar"!

        See 209 above.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          The artricle below was published some time ago and I think it's relevant.

          Much has been made of why Zimmerman would want to watch or follow Martin - and this article might explain a little about it.

          Zimmerman

          This was described as a "safe, gated community" but seems residents there didn't agree with that assessment.
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        • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
          Yep, and there are more examples.

          Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

          See 209 above.
          By the way, that last witness the state had today, the medical examiner, was something else also. 8/ He didn't seem prepared or experienced, ( although he was) and was argumentative.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      So hurt... Now it is illegal to get out of your car, EVEN if only to find out where you are. AND, according to the context and implication, you are a criminal if you get out of your car. WOW!

      Zimmerman was at least a neighbor, and, like hurt's store example, a stranger trespassing doesn't mean he is safe from others. To follow that reasoning, a person could go break into a home, kill a person, and go out the back without ANYONE being able to stop them.

      Steve
      Nice strawman fallacy. I never said it was illegal to get out of your car. But if you have to make things up to feel better, go for it.

      And, are you saying that it was unreasonable for Zimmerman to drive 100 ft away if he was approached by someone he thought was "suspicous"?

      Your bias is showing that you won't even consider Zimmerman should have driven off. Had he driven off, Martin wouldn't be dead and Zimmerman wouldn't be on trial facing possible prison time. Doesn't seem like such a bad outcome to me.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

        Nice strawman fallacy. I never said it was illegal to get out of your car. But if you have to make things up to feel better, go for it.
        FUNNY. D

        And, are you saying that it was unreasonable for Zimmerman to drive 100 ft away if he was approached by someone he thought was "suspicous"?
        WHERE? 100ft is NOTHING! 1 city block is like 500+ feet.

        Your bias is showing that you won't even consider Zimmerman should have driven off. Had he driven off, Martin wouldn't be dead and Zimmerman wouldn't be on trial facing possible prison time. Doesn't seem like such a bad outcome to me.
        [/quote]

        OF COURSE NOT! Had he driven off, a neighbor could have been killed. If he didn't want to do ANYTHING, not even report, why look out? Why call 911? Why be on the neighboorhood watch? Why have courts? Why have prisons Why even have police? VERY few criminals are likely caught within 100feet. HECK, it would be virtually IMPOSSIBLE for the police to do that SO, if the majority WERE caught within 100 feet, we wouldn't need the police.

        I was gone 3 HOURS one day and over 12 places were robbed! IMAGINE if they were killers? What if that was treyvon Oh SURE, maybe rrevon would be alive. Maybe 12 or more families would be DEAD!

        Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          That's why the link above was interesting to me.

          It's a somewhat bigger picture of the dynamics in that condo community at the time. Multiple burglaries, break-ins, etc would be a good reason to want to know who was walking through the grass at night. Also a good reason for Martin to be concerned if he thought he was being watched.

          To me, both of them showed a lack of judgment.

          Either of them could have called out to the other asking who they were or why they were running away or following. Instead, both assumed the worst of the other.

          Zimmerman talks to the cops on the phone and Martin is talking to Jaental on the phone. If they had talked to each other, there wouldn't have been an incident.
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          • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post


            To me, both of them showed a lack of judgment.

            Either of them could have called out to the other asking who they were or why they were running away or following. Instead, both assumed the worst of the other.

            Zimmerman talks to the cops on the phone and Martin is talking to Jaental on the phone. If they had talked to each other, there wouldn't have been an incident.

            That may be the most intelligent post I've read here so far, including my own. I'm ashamed to say that that thought never crossed my mind.

            Something very telling to me; When the police told Zimmerman that the act had been video taped, he was relieved, in the extreme. It wasn't true, but it was a smart test on the police's part.

            And he did well in the police interview. Not the answers of a guilty man.
            But he caused the death of someone. I still wonder if he can be found guilty of voluntary manslaughter. It would be an easier conviction, I would think.




            Or I could just rant incoherently. I do want to fit in.
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            • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
              Claude, I was wondering the same thing and found the answer yesterday when the state was rebutting the motion to acquit. The answer is yes, they can decide on the lesser charge of negligent manslaughter and I think the state has a strong case for it, whereas the 2nd degree seems to be a much harder case.

              Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

              But he caused the death of someone. I still wonder if he can be found guilty of voluntary manslaughter. It would be an easier conviction, I would think.



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        • Profile picture of the author Kurt
          Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

          FUNNY. D



          WHERE? 100ft is NOTHING! 1 city block is like 500+ feet.
          Yeah, and people are sooooo much faster on foot than a car is and there was noooooo way Zimmerman could have pulled off again if needed.

          I didn't mean to over-estimate you, I thought you could figure out for yourself that 100ft is just an example. Change it to whatever you want if it makes you feel better. The 100 ft is really irrelevant to the point at hand.

          However, 100ft would have been far enough to cause some seperation while still being able to keep an eye on Martin, correct?

          However, the 100ft acts as a great red herring for you to go off on a tangent and not deal with the real issue I brought up. Keep going, if you write just a little more I'm sure you can cover just about every major logical fallacy.

          It just kills you to admit the best thing would have been for Zimmerman to drive off to a safe distance.


          OF COURSE NOT! Had he driven off, a neighbor could have been killed. If he didn't want to do ANYTHING, not even report, why look out? Why call 911? Why be on the neighboorhood watch? Why have courts? Why have prisons Why even have police? VERY few criminals are likely caught within 100feet. HECK, it would be virtually IMPOSSIBLE for the police to do that SO, if the majority WERE caught within 100 feet, we wouldn't need the police.
          Oh, the old slippery slope fallacy with a bunch of non-sequitur comments added for bad taste.

          Why have reason? Why not follow police orders? Why not have a bit of logic in your comments?



          I was gone 3 HOURS one day and over 12 places were robbed!
          And here's another classic fallacy, a hasty generalization attempting to use one small example to prove the "whole".

          IMAGINE if they were killers? What if that was treyvon Oh SURE, maybe rrevon would be alive. Maybe 12 or more families would be DEAD!

          Steve
          If we're going to pretend and play make believe, what if Martin was an undercover spy trying to find a nuclear bomb before it was detonated by the evil twins of sadistic alien terrorists from Uranus? Why not, you're pulling your other comments out of Uranus.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Claude,

    In this day and age, it MIGHT have been videotaped. It is possible that someone videotaped it and hasn't come forward, doesn't realize it, or forgot.

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      Claude,

      In this day and age, it MIGHT have been videotaped. It is possible that someone videotaped it and hasn't come forward, doesn't realize it, or forgot.

      Steve
      Yes, but what I meant was that Zimmerman thought it was video taped...and that the police had the tape. His reaction would have been the same whether the tape existed or not.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Claude,

    I know. I was just saying....

    Kurt,
    WOW even dumb WORD PLAY! And thought potty jokes were dead. OH WELL....

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    OH, this person can say all she wants about bias and all. SHE is biased for the prosecution and STILL is making the case AGAINST it! I would NOT want jeantel to be MY star witness, in such a case!!!!!

    The smearing of Rachel Jeantel - Salon.com

    Steve
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  • Rachael Jeantel: Reluctant, scared, tired, pained to hear the person she was talking with being shot; horrified at having to testify (the attitude); trying to shield herself from seeing Trayvon in a casket knowing she was the last friendly person on earth to talk to him before he died; hearing his voice over and over and over again every day of her life since Trayvon's death; scared to go to sleep because she is sure to see Trayvon in her dreams, overeating to quell the pain, hyper, despondent, having to get up each day and work at putting one foot before the other just to get through another day which will go on for the rest of her life. Imagine that and she is only 19 now. How many years will she live? How excruciating is the power of this incident in this young woman's life. This and probably so much more!

    What of current and future friendships? How fearful is she when talking to anyone on the phone and the sounds of raised voices are heard? What flashbacks will she forever experience? What of marriage and children? How will they be impacted; what will be their legacy from a wounded, broken mom who had the unfortunate experience of hearing someone's life being taken away? What of this life, Rachael Jeantel, that has been forever changed in unimaginable ways?

    How can any of us judge her unless we have walked a mile in her shoes? How can any of us have pat answers for something that someone else has experienced that all of us hope and pray that we do not EVER have to go through.

    What of her support network? Does she have one? What of the possible atrocities that could be going on in her own life? What of the struggles she is going through?

    It seems, no one cares!!! Three lives immediately involved; families changed forever and the rest of us go back to business as usual in preparation for the next judgment seat we will sit on without compassion for the one who is suffering through the incident.

    One thing for sure: Whatever happened during this unfortunate and untimely event ending in death, George Zimmerman KNOWS exactly what happened and IF he is guilty of murder, may his days be long, miserable and unrelenting in guilt until he comes clean. If he is not guilty, may his days be filled with relief from the burden he is sure to carry for the rest of his life. After all, someone did lose their life that day! I wish only peace for his parents, such as it can be with the fact that their son is just not coming back.

    For the rest of us, I pray that we never have to walk in any of their shoes.
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  • Profile picture of the author marketingva
    What really has me upset about this case is that George Zimmerman said he wouldn't change anything that happened. If I had killed someone I would regret that for the rest of my life. Even if it was in self defense. It seems so callous to say "I killed someone and I don't care".

    Bonnie
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      I think that's a misinterpretation as the question i heard was about whether he would change anything he had done leading UP to the confrontation.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      George Zimmerman said
      Did you see that interview? I did and the question was clarified to mean would he do anything differently before the confrontation happened.
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      • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
        I think that is the problem. He could have stayed in his truck. He could have not followed him. He could have said right away that he was with neighborhood watch and the police are on the way. There's a number of things he could have done different that would have changed the outcome and he still says he wouldn't do anything different.

        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        Did you see that interview? I did and the question was clarified to mean would he do anything differently before the confrontation happened.
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

          I think that is the problem. He could have stayed in his truck. He could have not followed him. He could have said right away that he was with neighborhood watch and the police are on the way. There's a number of things he could have done different that would have changed the outcome and he still says he wouldn't do anything different.
          Of course the best, most reasonable, and overall most reasonable thing is that TREVON COULD HAVE STAYED HOME! After all, HE was the racist one! HE was the stranger! HE was the one not acting how he should have. *****YOU***** are assuming that zimmerman acted a certain way, and asking him to, when he finds a suspect, JUST GIVE UP, which is UNREASONABLE! Would you feel that way if trevon was going in to kill YOUR family? *****WOW*****! I, however, am assuming NOTHING! It is the one FACT that MUST be stipulated before we would even know about this, let alone you can say ANYTHING!

          Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            What have we come too?
            As we have always have been. People will explain away and excuse and point to those 'facts' that prove the theories they already hold in their minds.

            It's difficult in this case because both men had valid reasons to be where they were and, in the beginning, what they did made sense.

            It spun out of control for one reason: they were both unwilling to approach each other in a reasonable way. If there is racism in this story - that's where it is...and it was both sides that assumed the worst of the other.

            Jaentel has a social media history of profanity and racist comments on her accounts. She admits Martin made racial comments about Zimmerman but excuses them as "that's the way we talk". It's a double standard we shouldn't excuse no matter what color we are.
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            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              As we have always have been. People will explain away and excuse and point to those 'facts' that prove the theories they already hold in their minds.

              It's difficult in this case because both men had valid reasons to be where they were and, in the beginning, what they did made sense.

              It spun out of control for one reason: they were both unwilling to approach each other in a reasonable way. If there is racism in this story - that's where it is...and it was both sides that assumed the worst of the other.

              Jaentel has a social media history of profanity and racist comments on her accounts. She admits Martin made racial comments about Zimmerman but excuses them as "that's the way we talk". It's a double standard we shouldn't excuse no matter what color we are.
              I agree with the first bolded statement, and love watching the way you think.

              I wonder how much of the racial prejudice is real and how much is manufactured. For example, on MSNBC. black commentators overwhelmingly support Martin. I mean it isn't even close.

              But they have to. How unpopular would you be if you supported Zimmerman's story? (If you were black). OJ Simpson had so much evidence against him, it's as if he left his business card at the scene. But every black person I talked to said he was innocent. They had to, to show solidarity.

              And it works both ways. Prejudices run deep. So does cultural positioning.

              I grew up in Lodi Ohio. It was a central location for the KKK. Burning crosses in fields and everything. The Grand Wizard was on my paper route (I remember he never mowed his lawn). There was never a black person in town...Ever. The only reason I didn't have a prejudice growing up, is that my parents explained to me that these people (The KKK) were evil, and were to be avoided.

              But I knew several members (at least their sons). Decent people with a deep ingrained cultural defensiveness. It was like they were defending their territory....against a perceived threat. One that never came. Their prejudice was based on ignorance.

              But the prejudice black people feel is real. It's getting better rapidly, but its scars are deep.

              Anyway, these biases are cultural...on both sides. So I give Jaentel a pass for thinking this way.
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          • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
            Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

            Of course the best, most reasonable, and overall most reasonable thing is that TREVON COULD HAVE STAYED HOME! After all, HE was the racist one! HE was the stranger! HE was the one not acting how he should have. *****YOU***** are assuming that zimmerman acted a certain way, and asking him to, when he finds a suspect, JUST GIVE UP, which is UNREASONABLE! Would you feel that way if trevon was going in to kill YOUR family? *****WOW*****! I, however, am assuming NOTHING! It is the one FACT that MUST be stipulated before we would even know about this, let alone you can say ANYTHING!

            Steve
            Steve, I am surprised with this post!

            Trayvon could have stayed home? Surely he has as much right as anyone else to go to the store!

            There is no way on God's green earth that you can say that Trayvon was going to kill someone's whole family with 100 percent certainty or even one percent for that matter! Then you say you are assuming nothing?

            Man, you need to sit down and relax. Your preconceived notions are taking you far away from reality, man.

            Terra
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            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
              Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

              Steve, I am surprised with this post!

              Trayvon could have stayed home? Surely he has as much right as anyone else to go to the store!

              There is no way on God's green earth that you can say that Trayvon was going to kill someone's whole family with 100 percent certainty or even one percent for that matter! Then you say you are assuming nothing?

              Man, you need to sit down and relax. Your preconceived notions are taking you far away from reality, man.

              Terra
              Terra; I think Steve was just making a point as to how far you could go with making excuses and accusations. I can't believe he was really suggesting that Martin stay home.

              I hope.
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              • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                Terra; I think Steve was just making a point as to how far you could go with making excuses and accusations. I can't believe he was really suggesting that Martin stay home.

                I hope.
                Oh, Whew! I hope so too.

                I was completely frightened there for a moment.

                Terra
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              • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                I think you are giving Steve too much credit Claude.

                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                Terra; I think Steve was just making a point as to how far you could go with making excuses and accusations. I can't believe he was really suggesting that Martin stay home.

                I hope.
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          • Profile picture of the author LarryC
            Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

            Of course the best, most reasonable, and overall most reasonable thing is that TREVON COULD HAVE STAYED HOME! After all, HE was the racist one! HE was the stranger! HE was the one not acting how he should have. *****YOU***** are assuming that zimmerman acted a certain way, and asking him to, when he finds a suspect, JUST GIVE UP, which is UNREASONABLE! Would you feel that way if trevon was going in to kill YOUR family? *****WOW*****! I, however, am assuming NOTHING! It is the one FACT that MUST be stipulated before we would even know about this, let alone you can say ANYTHING!

            Steve
            I guess you could say that about anyone who gets killed -he would have been better off staying home. Not sure that is a sound legal argument though.
            "If the victim had stayed home, my client could not have shot him. Therefore, you must acquit!"

            Plus, Trayvon may not have been a saint, but where's the evidence he was planning to kill anybody? Did he even have a weapon?
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      • Profile picture of the author marketingva
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        Did you see that interview? I did and the question was clarified to mean would he do anything differently before the confrontation happened.
        Yes, I did see it but it didn't make any difference for me. I would think a normal person would have said they would have changed anything or everything if it would have made a change to the outcome (someone died).

        Bonnie
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by marketingva View Post

      Even if it was in self defense. It seems so callous to say "I killed someone and I don't care".

      Bonnie
      Bonnie; I agree. Had he actually said that, it would have been terrible.

      But he didn't.

      Had I shot someone, I have no idea what I would say in an interview. How do you protect your soul from hating yourself? How do you live with it? What do you keep saying to yourself to keep from screaming?

      To me, saying it was "God's plan" was stupid...but maybe he believes it.
      If he says he would change something...his whole mental defense breaks down. I'll bet police go through the same mental process..

      Although this incident is way different from a policeman doing his job.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    The real problem is that so many want to shape the facts around their beliefs instead of the other way around.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      The real problem is that so many want to shape the facts around their beliefs instead of the other way around.
      Not "so many"...all of us, all the time.
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      • Profile picture of the author KimW
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        Not "so many"...all of us, all the time.
        No Claude,that is not true.Many people can separate fact from fiction.

        The truth from what they would like the truth to be.
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by KimW View Post

          No Claude,that is not true.Many people can separate fact from fiction.

          The truth from what they would like the truth to be.
          Dear Kim;

          We can separate fact from fiction, but we see everything through a lens. And lenses distort.

          It isn't separating fact from fiction. It's separating fact from belief.
          Beliefs look like facts. It's very difficult to separate them from reality.

          There is a difference between what you would "like to believe", and what you believe. We may express it the same way, but we see them as two different things, so I agree with you on that.

          Every argument I see is an argument about beliefs. Facts are easy to check. There isn't really an argument. But beliefs are defended. They are protected. People invest in their beliefs.

          And there are people better at cutting through their own belief system to get to the reality. But I meet very few.

          Our definition of terms is just slightly different, I think.

          Yours Truly,

          Claude "Tricky Sociopath" Whitacre.
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          • Profile picture of the author KimW
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            Dear Kim;

            We can separate fact from fiction, but we see everything through a lens. And lenses distort.

            It isn't separating fact from fiction. It's separating fact from belief.
            Beliefs look like facts. It's very difficult to separate them from reality.

            There is a difference between what you would "like to believe", and what you believe. We may express it the same way, but we see them as two different things, so I agree with you on that.

            Every argument I see is an argument about beliefs. Facts are easy to check. There isn't really an argument. But beliefs are defended. They are protected. People invest in their beliefs.

            And there are people better at cutting through their own belief system to get to the reality. But I meet very few.

            Our definition of terms is just slightly different, I think.

            Yours Truly,

            Claude "Tricky Sociopath" Whitacre.
            Dear Claude,

            You can have your beliefs but that won't change my facts.

            Some lenses are crystal clear,no distortion at all.

            If there is a 1 ton boulder in front of me and I see a 1 ton boulder and my perception is of a 1 ton boulder there is no difference between my perception,my belief,and the truth.

            I hope this makes things clear as mud for you.

            (But is actually quite true).
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            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
              Originally Posted by KimW View Post

              Dear Claude,

              You can have your beliefs but that won't change my facts.

              Some lenses are crystal clear,no distortion at all.

              If there is a 1 ton boulder in front of me and I see a 1 ton boulder and my perception is of a 1 ton boulder there is no difference between my perception,my belief,and the truth.

              I hope this makes things clear as mud for you.

              (But is actually quite true).
              Kim; It's clear. I still don't think we are arguing. The boulder is real. That's a fact. It can be measured, weighed, analyzed, broken up, tested....it's real.

              But if you believe that the boulder was sent here by God..that's a belief. If you think the boulder is evil, that's a belief. If you think the boulder doesn't like you...that's a belief.

              And if you think the boulder is heavy, without weighing it, that's also a belief, although almost certainly true.

              The things I'm talking about aren't boulders, or things physical that are easily measured. We agree on all that. I'm talking about perceptions....filling in blanks when all facts are not known.

              We all do it. Creating patterns and filling in gaps is what our brain does.

              It has nothing to do with being stupid, or missing facts, or not thinking clearly. But we create a complete picture without having all the pieces of the puzzle...and that's where we have arguments. The picture one creates is slightly different from someone else's, because of the way we each complete that picture.

              You and I are in complete agreement. Our statements just didn't perfectly overlap.

              And you made me have to look up what we were talking about in the first place .....:rolleyes:

              Claude "Scatterbrained" Whitacre

              Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

              I'm going to enjoy watching Kim and Claude say basically the same thing in different ways as they debate each other. Good times, good times.
              Dan; That fact that you see that impresses me to no end. I was having a hard time agreeing with Kim without just laying on my back, while exposing my throat to him in submission.

              Nothing is more fun to me (while dressed) than debating intelligent people. And we aren't debating, just trying to agree while still winning the argument

              (that was a joke)

              Added later; I just reread Kim's first post about this. Some of us have fewer facts and some have more. The fewer the facts you are aware of, the more you have to rely on beliefs, and it's beliefs that you bend your interpretation of the facts around. Got it? Whew!

              So Kim is right, Meaning I understand what he means, and I agree with him. I went off on a sort of tangent about the way we interpret incomplete pictures of the world.


              So Claude and Kim both win. Group hug.
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              • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                <snip> And we aren't debating, just trying to agree while still winning the argument

                (that was a joke)
                I know. That's what had me giddy with joy. Alas, it appears the fun is over.
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              • Profile picture of the author KimW
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                Kim; It's clear. I still don't think we are arguing. The boulder is real. That's a fact. It can be measured, weighed, analyzed, broken up, tested....it's real.

                But if you believe that the boulder was sent here by God..that's a belief. If you think the boulder is evil, that's a belief. If you think the boulder doesn't like you...that's a belief.

                And if you think the boulder is heavy, without weighing it, that's also a belief, although almost certainly true.

                The things I'm talking about aren't boulders, or things physical that are easily measured. We agree on all that. I'm talking about perceptions....filling in blanks when all facts are not known.

                We all do it. Creating patterns and filling in gaps is what our brain does.

                It has nothing to do with being stupid, or missing facts, or not thinking clearly. But we create a complete picture without having all the pieces of the puzzle...and that's where we have arguments. The picture one creates is slightly different from someone else's, because of the way we each complete that picture.

                You and I are in complete agreement. Our statements just didn't perfectly overlap.

                And you made me have to look up what we were talking about in the first place .....:rolleyes:

                Claude "Scatterbrained" Whitacre



                Dan; That fact that you see that impresses me to no end. I was having a hard time agreeing with Kim without just laying on my back, while exposing my throat to him in submission.

                Nothing is more fun to me (while dressed) than debating intelligent people. And we aren't debating, just trying to agree while still winning the argument

                (that was a joke)

                Added later; I just reread Kim's first post about this. Some of us have fewer facts and some have more. The fewer the facts you are aware of, the more you have to rely on beliefs, and it's beliefs that you bend your interpretation of the facts around. Got it? Whew!

                So Kim is right, Meaning I understand what he means, and I agree with him. I went off on a sort of tangent about the way we interpret incomplete pictures of the world.


                So Claude and Kim both win. Group hug.
                I don't know Claude, sometimes I enjoy doing this without clothes on.
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                • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                  Originally Posted by KimW View Post

                  I don't know Claude, sometimes I enjoy doing this without clothes on.
                  I hope you're not talking about that group hug?:p

                  Terra
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  • BTW, the hoodie is for keeping the rain off of your head. Works for me if I don't have an umbrella. Seems strange now that someone can't wear a hoodie to protect themselves from the rain! Seems even stranger that some will vilify someone JUST because they are wearing a hoodie.

    What have we come too?
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  • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
    I'm going to enjoy watching Kim and Claude say basically the same thing in different ways as they debate each other. Good times, good times.
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    • Profile picture of the author KimW
      Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

      I'm going to enjoy watching Kim and Claude say basically the same thing in different ways as they debate each other. Good times, good times.
      Dan,
      This was really the only disagreement I had with Claude.
      "Not "so many"...all of us, all the time."
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      • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
        Originally Posted by KimW View Post

        Dan,
        This was really the only disagreement I had with Claude.
        "Not "so many"...all of us, all the time."
        I'm not even sure you've really had a disagreement with him yet.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    Terra,
    Get your mind out of the gutter girl!

    The emphasis was on "debating intelligent people"
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    • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      Terra,
      Get your mind out of the gutter girl!

      The emphasis was on "debating intelligent people"

      Sorry!!

      I just couldn't resist.

      You have to admit you left that one wide open.

      Terra
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      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
        When I'm debating a group of people online, and I'm not wearing any clothes...I call it "Mass-Debating". :rolleyes:

        Anyone? Brilliant? Fiendishly clever? An inspiration to millions? One step too far?

        Blame Terra! She's the one that brought up sexy stuff! Kim and I were having an intellectual conversation....and Terra barged in with her "Sexy cheer leader" ways!

        I'm innocent, I tell ya! Innocent.
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        • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

          When I'm debating a group of people online, and I'm not wearing any clothes...I call it "Mass-Debating". :rolleyes:

          Anyone? Brilliant? Fiendishly clever? An inspiration to millions? One step too far?
          Toss out the "inspiration to millions" and I'll grant you the rest, however...

          For the first time I'm starting to wonder if you have too much time on your hands.
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          • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
            Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

            For the first time I'm starting to wonder if you have too much time on your hands.
            I just hope time is the only thing on Claude's hands...
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        • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post


          Blame Terra! She's the one that brought up sexy stuff! Kim and I were having an intellectual conversation....and Terra barged in with her "Sexy cheer leader" ways!

          I'm innocent, I tell ya! Innocent.
          Whaaa? Huh?

          I'm the innocent one here!

          I may have barged in and, and, well, sexy I'll take.

          But cheer leading ways? Uh, uh! I'll have you know I wasn't cheering for either of ya! :p

          Terra
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  • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
    It's alway Terra who has to take everything straight to the gutter.
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    • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
      Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

      It's alway Terra who has to take everything straight to the gutter.
      Okay Dan...

      I thanked you because I have not laughed that hard in quite awhile.

      It's never ever Dan who does that, now is it?

      Honestly, that is the best example of the pot calling the kettle black that I have ever seen! LOL!


      Terra
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      • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
        Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

        Okay Dan...

        I thanked you because I have not laughed that hard in quite awhile.

        It's never ever Dan who does that, now is it?

        Honestly, that is the best example of the pot calling the kettle black that I have ever seen! LOL!


        Terra
        Hey! I resemble that remark!



        (I thought you'd get a kick out of my hypocrisy.)
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        • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
          Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

          Hey! I resemble that remark!



          (I thought you'd get a kick out of my hypocrisy.)

          And you were right............

          This time.

          Terra
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            I'm not watching the trial but I did hear something interesting today.

            The Prosecution asked to add another charge - of manslaughter. Is that normal - to add another charge AFTER the trial part is over? Isn't that like saying "we know we were wrong to charge him with murder but we want to convict him of something."

            After the Judge agreed (according to news - didn't see it) - Prosecution then requested to add another type of lesser manslaughter charges AND to add "abuse of a minor" as yet another possible charge. The judge did not allow that.

            If the State thinks it was manslaughter - why didn't they charge it that way to begin with? The State bowed to public pressure - overcharged this case - and now wants a way out and a "win".

            I don't care what the Zimmerman verdict is - but this seems unfair. I'd think the state has an obligation to charge a crime properly in the beginning and not to make the charges a moving target.
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            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              I'm not watching the trial but I did hear something interesting today.

              The Prosecution asked to add another charge - of manslaughter. Is that normal - to add another charge AFTER the trial part is over? Isn't that like saying "we know we were wrong to charge him with murder but we want to convict him of something."

              After the Judge agreed (according to news - didn't see it) - Prosecution then requested to add another type of lesser manslaughter charges AND to add "abuse of a minor" as yet another possible charge. The judge did not allow that.

              If the State thinks it was manslaughter - why didn't they charge it that way to begin with? The State bowed to public pressure - overcharged this case - and now wants a way out and a "win".

              I don't care what the Zimmerman verdict is - but this seems unfair. I'd think the state has an obligation to charge a crime properly in the beginning and not to make the charges a moving target.
              I don't know if it's fair or not. But I saw the State Summation...and it seemed weak. I mean it sounded like the prosecutor didn't have a real strong case.

              I don't mean that the state doesn't have a strong case (My opinion is just an opinion)..but I think they fumbled the ball. The jury was asked too many questions, and the prosecutor sounded unsure. At least he sounded to me like a man that was trying to sell a weak case.

              Offering a lesser charge at the end is actually pretty smart. It's like pitching a deal for 5 days, and then suddenly dropping the price in half. It makes the decision easier for the jury.

              Anyway...in a few days, everyone will know.
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            • Profile picture of the author seasoned
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              I'm not watching the trial but I did hear something interesting today.

              The Prosecution asked to add another charge - of manslaughter. Is that normal - to add another charge AFTER the trial part is over? Isn't that like saying "we know we were wrong to charge him with murder but we want to convict him of something."

              After the Judge agreed (according to news - didn't see it) - Prosecution then requested to add another type of lesser manslaughter charges AND to add "abuse of a minor" as yet another possible charge. The judge did not allow that.

              If the State thinks it was manslaughter - why didn't they charge it that way to begin with? The State bowed to public pressure - overcharged this case - and now wants a way out and a "win".

              I don't care what the Zimmerman verdict is - but this seems unfair. I'd think the state has an obligation to charge a crime properly in the beginning and not to make the charges a moving target.
              The constitution says that a person is to be charged UP FRONT!!! FURTHER, they are to be aprised IN ADVANCE, and have the TIME TO PREPARE. I think the state listened and realized that they couldn't get people to obliterate zimmermans life, so this is to appear to compromise.

              Steve
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              • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                The constitution says that a person is to be charged UP FRONT!!! FURTHER, they are to be aprised IN ADVANCE, and have the TIME TO PREPARE. I think the state listened and realized that they couldn't get people to obliterate zimmermans life, so this is to appear to compromise.

                Steve
                Florida law is that the jury can agree on a lesser charge. That's why it was introduced. It's the same case with the same second degree charge. Manslaughter is just another option. There is no need to prepare for this.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    Trying to add "abuse of a minor" is ludicrous.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      I guess I didn't like it because it seemed like a planned "tactic"...ask for a lot of stuff and get the one charge you want approved by the Judge.

      Get the new charge added the NIGHT before your final arguments - and then argue the lesser charge rather than the charges used for the arrest.

      Then hope the jury will view the "lesser charge" as a way out....not knowing the conviction on that charge could be 30 years in Florida.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      Trying to add "abuse of a minor" is ludicrous.
      YEAH! There is a rule that says they basically can't speak against a popular underdog or perceived underdog group.

      STILL, if they pulled the "abuse of a minor" garbage on ME, I would make it clear that HE was a juvenile delinquent. That is OBVIOUS by the manner of speech, the "ass" and "cracker" comments, etc.... And Jeantel DID say he said he was going to confront zimmerman and zimmerman DID talk about the confrontation.

      If zimmerman were white, or even hispanic, this would be VERY different! We would likely have never even HEARD of it! NO case or threat of a life sentence.

      BESIDES, zimmerman is as good as dead either way. SO MANY are SWEARING they will kill him!

      Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
        Apparently Zimmerman has had enough!

        "SANFORD, FL--Claiming that his second-degree murder trial has "dragged on for way too long," sources confirmed Thursday that former neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman offered to just plead guilty and pay the fine or whatever. "Look, I'm sick of having to deal with this, so just let me pay the 100 bucks or whatever it is and I'll be on my way," said Zimmerman, noting that he has already wasted three weeks in court fighting his murder charge in the February 2012 shooting death of unarmed 17-year-old Trayvon Martin."

        George Zimmerman Offers To Just Plead Guilty And Pay Fine Or Whatever | The Onion - America's Finest News Source
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          Tim -

          You do realize you are quoting The Onion??? Are you considering that a serious source of news? Really?

          Other news from the Onion - "terrified Johnny Depp unable to remove Tonto makeup".....and "Universe Crueler, More Uncaring Place than Previously Thought".

          If anyone else posted that I'd assume it was a joke....but...
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          • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
            Kay, I have posted dozens of the Onion's stories here and many more at facebook. You seriously thought I thought it was real?! Really?

            “Look, I’m sick of having to deal with this, so just let me pay the 100 bucks or whatever it is and I’ll be on my way,” Lol
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            • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
              Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

              Kay, I have posted dozens of the Onion's stories here and many more at facebook. You seriously thought I thought it was real?! Really?

              "Look, I'm sick of having to deal with this, so just let me pay the 100 bucks or whatever it is and I'll be on my way," Lol
              The trouble with that is there may be people reading the forum who don't know you, and don't follow the link to the source. That's one way rumors get started.
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              Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

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              • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                I'm ok with that. I like posting Onion stuff in threads now and then because they are really good at satire and are very current. I follow them on facebook and see posts from them everyday. When I saw this one I thought it would be good to insert here.
                Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

                The trouble with that is there may be people reading the forum who don't know you, and don't follow the link to the source. That's one way rumors get started.
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      • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
        Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

        YEAH! There is a rule that says they basically can't speak against a popular underdog or perceived underdog group.

        STILL, if they pulled the "abuse of a minor" garbage on ME, I would make it clear that HE was a juvenile delinquent. That is OBVIOUS by the manner of speech, the "ass" and "cracker" comments, etc.... And Jeantel DID say he said he was going to confront zimmerman and zimmerman DID talk about the confrontation.

        If zimmerman were white, or even hispanic, this would be VERY different! We would likely have never even HEARD of it! NO case or threat of a life sentence.

        BESIDES, zimmerman is as good as dead either way. SO MANY are SWEARING they will kill him!

        Steve
        Careful Steve, the last time I posted that, I was accused of being racist. Doesn't matter if the FACTS support what is being said or not, apparently.

        I guess these days you aren't allowed to state FACTS without being accused of bigotry.

        ha.

        Call me what you will, but I have followed this trial from day 1 ---- and I mean, LONG before it even became a trial.

        This is a clear-cut case of self defense, and it should have never even came to this.

        Practically EVERY witness the prosecution has called has verified Z's version of events. So yeah..

        That would explain why they are literally grasping for straws (lesser charges) this late in the game.

        The judge herself has a CLEAR case of bias against Z.

        There is simply no other explanation, considering the way this circus has played out thus far.

        But hey.... after all, "if I had a son....."

        lulz... ******* pathetic.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          Tim - My first reaction was a laugh and then thought "surely he's not serious, is he?" Good one!

          The like The Onion but have found a lot of people don't get it. This time it was me
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        • Profile picture of the author Patrician
          Originally Posted by Whos That Guru View Post

          Careful Steve, the last time I posted that, I was accused of being racist. Doesn't matter if the FACTS support what is being said or not, apparently.

          I guess these days you aren't allowed to state FACTS without being accused of bigotry.
          Sorry to mess up your martyrdom -

          Originally Posted by Whos That Guru View Post

          huh? That makes no sense unless you meant to quote someone else's post.

          The Black Panthers are the ones who threatened to kill him.

          I'm not just putting words in their mouth.
          I guess you missed this. see page 4

          Originally Posted by Patrician View Post

          Sorry - realized after the fact that they actually said that - (not your words)


          I STILL SAY the dead victim's character would not have been under so much scrutiny had he not been black.

          I STILL SAY the whole scenario might not have played out the way it did if the victim was not black.

          I STILL SAY maybe he was really a threatening punk at the 'end of the day' (literally) - and maybe I would have done the same thing as Z did if I had 'painted myself into a corner' as he did -

          :p
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            I STILL SAY the dead victim's character would not have been under so much scrutiny had he not been black.

            I think much of the character issue was a result of misinformation offered in the first place. A 12 year old and 14 year old photo shown as the "victim" - rather than a current photo of a fully grown 17 yr old. The constant references by Sharpton, et al, to an "innocent child" made reporters look a bit closer. If one fact is not true (age) - what else might be suspect? I don't think the color had anything to do with looking at his history - I think the school suspension and the refusal to disclose the reason made the media curious. I think it's disingenuous to think you can mold a story to suit you and not have some look closer at the victim's background.

            I STILL SAY the whole scenario might not have played out the way it did if the victim was not black.

            I agree but maybe not for the same reason. There had been multiple crimes - thefts and breakins - in that housing complex in the weeks preceding the shooting. Some of the perpetrators were caught - and all of those were young, black males. I was surprised by videos and photos of how dark that particular area is at night - would have to be close to someone to determine their color or their age as there are no street lights or other illumination there.


            I STILL SAY maybe he was really a threatening punk at the 'end of the day' (literally) - and maybe I would have done the same thing as Z did if I had 'painted myself into a corner' as he did -

            I agree. It's easy to be armchair juries - but we don't know how we would react in a similar instance unless you've been there. Even then, you can't predict how another person would react in a perceived crisis.


            If Martin had not been black - I don't think this trial would be taking place at all. It was political and pundit pressure that led to charges being filed after the fact. Had the victim been white or Hispanic I think this would have been labeled a "misunderstanding with tragic consequences".

            I guess we'll know the results soon - don't think it will take the jury too long to reach a verdict but have no idea what that verdict will be.
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            • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              [/I]If Martin had not been black - I don't think this trial would be taking place at all. .
              IF we switched the races around you would have a point. The trial would probably have been for first degree murder.

              I don't know if race was involved but your claim is utterly ridiculous and biased. Anytime a minor unarmed person is shot there ought to be a pretty close investigation even if the person doing the shooting is a cop. Thats white, black, yellow or dyed purple.

              If the person isn't a cop then there should be a trial unless its open and shut with enough witnesses and a video tape. It should especially be the case when one person followed the other after being told by the real authorities not do so.

              Insinuating that the death of a seventeen year old boy would normally be unworthy of a trial and was only done because he was black is sad and to be honest ...a little bit sick. Not much but yeah a little bit.
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            • Profile picture of the author Patrician
              Quote:
              I STILL SAY the dead victim's character would not have been under so much scrutiny had he not been black.

              I think much of the character issue was a result of misinformation offered in the first place. A 12 year old and 14 year old photo shown as the "victim" - rather than a current photo of a fully grown 17 yr old. The constant references by Sharpton, et al, to an "innocent child" made reporters look a bit closer. If one fact is not true (age) - what else might be suspect? I don't think the color had anything to do with looking at his history - I think the school suspension and the refusal to disclose the reason made the media curious. I think it's disingenuous to think you can mold a story to suit you and not have some look closer at the victim's background.

              I STILL SAY the whole scenario might not have played out the way it did if the victim was not black.

              I agree but maybe not for the same reason. There had been multiple crimes - thefts and breakins - in that housing complex in the weeks preceding the shooting. Some of the perpetrators were caught - and all of those were young, black males. I was surprised by videos and photos of how dark that particular area is at night - would have to be close to someone to determine their color or their age as there are no street lights or other illumination there.


              I STILL SAY maybe he was really a threatening punk at the 'end of the day' (literally) - and maybe I would have done the same thing as Z did if I had 'painted myself into a corner' as he did -

              I agree. It's easy to be armchair juries - but we don't know how we would react in a similar instance unless you've been there. Even then, you can't predict how another person would react in a perceived crisis.



              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              [/I]If Martin had not been black - I don't think this trial would be taking place at all. It was political and pundit pressure that led to charges being filed after the fact. Had the victim been white or Hispanic I think this would have been labeled a "misunderstanding with tragic consequences".

              I guess we'll know the results soon - don't think it will take the jury too long to reach a verdict but have no idea what that verdict will be.
              You make some good points Kay - and the worst thing poor dead Martin has going for him is Al Sharpton -

              While I have never been able to really stand him either, even with his new hair do and slimmed down for TV, he just needs to shut up.

              You have it all down really pat how why and where to rationalize everything in favor of the defense - and that may well be right -

              I still maintain that racism no matter how starched and pressed and all so perfectly logical is alive ever so subtly, particularly in people who are in so much denial about it's existence. They feel perfectly justified in their secret little thoughts. (and they do have that right), but it makes me laugh it is so obviously biased.

              sometimes 'you have to laugh to keep from crying'.

              Too bad the same biased people are allowed on juries where bias should never be - but of course they are only human...
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
    IF they were going to allow the child abuse charge (which they did not) then it would have been MORE than fair to charge the little wanna-be thug's parents with child neglect for even letting him out that late in the first place.

    But hey, I'm a little pissed off over here and probably venting. So I'm sure the Sharpton/Jackson crowd is going to call me a racist for this for even bringing that up.

    As my wife's co-worker would say... WHAT EVZ!
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
    The news is reporting the jury is done for the day.

    I pity anyone where their future is dependent on a jury, that have no clue what's going on. Both sides (defendant/plaintiff) will lie through their teeth to win. Meanwhile the jury is sitting there for hours thinking screw this I want to go home with my $17 Gov. check.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Anytime a minor unarmed person is shot there ought to be a pretty close investigation even if the person doing the shooting is a cop.
      I agree and it doesn't have to be a minor - just an unarmed person.

      I stand by what I said - had Zimmerman been the victim Sharpton and others would not be calling for 'justice'. Those same people would be either ignoring the case or defending the shooter and claiming the charges filed were racist. That's exactly what has happened in past incidents.

      To me, the loss of a 17 yr old matters no matter what color he is. But another life (Zimmerman) should not be ruined if indeed this was self defense. That's why we have trials and juries.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post


        I stand by what I said - had Zimmerman been the victim Sharpton and others would not be calling for 'justice'. Those same people would be either ignoring the case or defending the shooter and claiming the charges filed were racist. That's exactly what has happened in past incidents.
        Well

        A) You said there would be no trial at all which is dubious - not who would be calling for one - totally different point.
        B) who are the "others"? There were people totally unassociated with Sharpton that felt there should be an arrest. They are called the majority.

        CNN poll: Majority call for arrest in Trayvon Martin shooting - CNN.com

        Sharpton et al might have even helped reduce that number. You make him entirely too powerful in your minds

        Poll Shows Americans Don't Want Zimmerman Arrested

        but even then the majority still felt an arrest was within reason So.....

        C) Who cares about Sharpton? We have ambulance chasers in this country why does he get singled out (but yes he generally IS a clown)? My goodness who tries to profit from mayhem and murder more than Nancy Grace? She turns every murder trial into a circus.

        To me, the loss of a 17 yr old matters no matter what color he is. But another life (Zimmerman) should not be ruined if indeed this was self defense. That's why we have trials and juries.
        His life is ruined anyway and with due cause. He will live in fear regardless for the rest of his life or have to leave the country and frankly that will be his own doing and I will shed no tear since he claims it was all the will of God. He overstepped his bounds. As a Neighborhood watch leader your number one job is to assist by obeying the police. He was told not to follow. If he obeys the direction then no one dies. That is without question.

        Did the teen respond inappropriately to being followed? - I have no idea. In a dark night where not a single witness can tell us who initiated the scuffle only Zimmerman knows. We can claim the teen was on top of him doing anything but we don't know why or whether he was provoked or in fear of his own life fighting back (since for some strange and stupid reason ZM never states who he was)

        We do know Zimmerman turns the corner following as he was instructed not to do. We do know that he was aware he was carrying an equalizer of deadly force on his hip and we do know that he was aware that the police were already on their way and as such the risk of any crime being committed that night was next to nil. Its obvious he was playing cop. As such to me he deserves manslaughter. His negligence led to a confrontation that was unnecessary and he went into it clearly knowing he could use deadly force.

        Air Traffic controllers can get manslaughter for far less premeditation of setting up potentially deadly circumstances. The definition as far as Florida Goes

        (1) The killing of a human being by the act, procurement, or culpable negligence of another, without lawful justification according to the provisions of chapter 776 and in cases in which such killing shall not be excusable homicide or murder, according to the provisions of this chapter, is manslaughter, a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
        and

        (3) A person who causes the death of any person under the age of 18 by culpable negligence under s. 827.03(2)(b) commits aggravated manslaughter of a child, a felony of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
        Attempting to act like a cop when directly told by the police not to is culpable negligence without any lawful justification. The fact that he said only minutes before - "they always get away" - indicates point blank that his state of mind was to somehow stop this one from getting away even after being told to not only NOT engage but not even to follow.

        The only argument is on Statute 776 but it is dubious - to me at least - that you can invoke it when you are making an approach to the person
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post


          Attempting to act like a cop when directly told by the police not to is culpable negligence without any lawful justification. The fact that he said only minutes before - "they always get away" - indicates point blank that his state of mind was to somehow stop this one from getting away even after being told to not only NOT engage but not even to follow.

          The only argument is on Statute 776 but it is dubious - to me at least - that you can invoke it when you are making an approach to the person
          He was NOT "acting like a cop". He said he NEVER approached trevon. He ALSO said h was headed BACK to the car!

          Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            You have it all down really pat how why and where to rationalize everything in favor of the defense - and that may well be right -
            I don't really "have it down" and do lean toward the defense now.

            I didn't start out that way, though. My initial thought when I heard of the case was "over zealous neighborhood watch person" and "poor innocent young kid".

            The manipulation of the story made me look closer. The recent crime wave in the neighborhood factored into my thinking when I read about it. The insistence on presenting Martin as an "innocent child" rather than a "young man" bothered me because it kept happening. The "accidental" editing of the 911 call to "prove" Zimmerman was a racist and the time discrepancies of Martin's location (where he told Rachel he was and where he was when killed) influenced me, too. The insistence and acceptance that "cracker" is not a racist term (it means 'slave owner') was incredible. "That's how we talk" is not an excuse for racist slurs no matter who you are.

            I may be wrong - but my opinion is not based on the hype around this shooting but on my judgment of what is credible and what isn't. It's the only way I know to form an opinion.

            To me the incident seemed avoidable then - and it seems that way now. The entire case hinges on whether Martin doubled back to accost Zimmerman and whether Zimmerman pursued or not.

            Race definitely played a part in distrust on both sides and it played a part in how both people reacted, too.

            What I don't buy into is the tit-for-tat that because a black man was killed, the other man must "pay". If Zimmerman is guilty, he should be punished. If it was self defense it's a different outcome.

            In the end, whatever the jury decides is what I will accept as "truth" - and that's the same way I felt about the Simpson trial.
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            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              In the end, whatever the jury decides is what I will accept as "truth" - and that's the same way I felt about the Simpson trial.
              Kay; I agree with pretty much everything you said. But I disagree about the Simpson case. The evidence for guilt was so overwhelming, the only reason he was found not guilty was because of racial solidarity. And I've never talked to a black person who thought he was guilty...or a white person who thought he was innocent.

              The Zimmerman case is far more blurry, far more subject to interpretation.
              My gut feeling is that he will be found guilty. But based on what I know, I would be hard pressed to find him guilty. Just because I have doubts. And I would need to be damn sure.

              Some people are afraid of riots if Zimmerman is found not guilty.

              Is anyone afraid of Mexican rioting if he's found guilty? No.
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              • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                I would be hard pressed to find him guilty. Just because I have doubts. And I would need to be damn sure.
                That's where I am, too. I have reasonable doubt and public opinion doesn't change that.

                In Simpson, the timeline didn't work for me but, more than that, I won't second guess a jury that heard all the evidence when I only had what the media chose to feature.

                Some people are afraid of riots if Zimmerman is found not guilty.

                Is anyone afraid of Mexican rioting if he's found guilty? No.
                LOL - never thought of it that way but you're right. I think there will be demonstrations/disturbances no matter what the verdict is.

                I hope I'm wrong about that. I know the Martin family doesn't want that and it wouldn't honor their son's memory.
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                • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                  Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                  That's where I am, too. I have reasonable doubt and public opinion doesn't change that.

                  In Simpson, the timeline didn't work for me but, more than that, I won't second guess a jury that heard all the evidence when I only had what the media chose to feature.
                  That's a fair and valid point. But his actions were the actions of a guilty man who was caught. Zimmerman's actions were not.

                  But you are right. The jury is seeing things we do not.

                  This jury six;
                  White women,
                  In Texas (a very Republican state)
                  5 are mothers

                  I wonder how that may affect the outcome, if at all.
                  My gut reaction is that they will be far more likely to find him guilty than a more mixed jury. But that's based only on the fact that they are mothers.

                  And my wife is 100% sure of Zimmerman's guilt. The idea of anyone using a gun for any reason is just not part of her makeup.
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              • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                Kay; I agree with pretty much everything you said. But I disagree about the Simpson case. The evidence for guilt was so overwhelming, the only reason he was found not guilty was because of racial solidarity. And I've never talked to a black person who thought he was guilty...or a white person who thought he was innocent.
                Well, I and my father are white, and thought simpson was railroaded! And WHAT evidence? There wasn't ANY evidence! It was all so tainted that it should have been thrown out. ALSO, the idea that he was there at some point, etc... Was MEANINGLESS! He was the exHUSBAND and had KIDS there!

                The Zimmerman case is far more blurry, far more subject to interpretation.
                My gut feeling is that he will be found guilty. But based on what I know, I would be hard pressed to find him guilty. Just because I have doubts. And I would need to be damn sure.
                With zimmerman there is EVIDENCE of a conspiracy to convict! There is evidence that trevon was RACIST and LOOKING for trouble! There is evidence that Zimmerman WAS ATTACKED!

                BTW the IT director was just fired! You know why? Because HE mentioned that the PROSECUTION was guilty of a BRADY VIOLATION! So they TAINTED the case in their favor!

                Some people are afraid of riots if Zimmerman is found not guilty.

                Is anyone afraid of Mexican rioting if he's found guilty? No.
                For something such as this, mexicans are NOT known to riot! BESIDES, mexicans are more likely to protest, EVEN if they are illegal aliens! With blacks, they have THREATENED and HAVE done it in the past. I have seen it FIRST HAND!

                Steve
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                • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                  Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                  For something such as this, mexicans are NOT known to riot! BESIDES, mexicans are more likely to protest, EVEN if they are illegal aliens! With blacks, they have THREATENED and HAVE done it in the past. I have seen it FIRST HAND!

                  Steve
                  You're completely misreading what I said...again. Even when you are agreeing with me.
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              • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                Zimmerman isn't Mexican.
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                Some people are afraid of riots if Zimmerman is found not guilty.

                Is anyone afraid of Mexican rioting if he's found guilty? No.
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                • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                  Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                  Zimmerman isn't Mexican.
                  Then what nationality is he? I just heard on TV that's he's Mexican.
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                  • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                    He's multi-racial. His dad is white and his mother is Peruvian. He lists himself as hispanic I believe.
                    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                    Then what nationality is he? I just heard on TV that's he's Mexican.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                      Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                      He's multi-racial. His dad is white and his mother is Peruvian. He lists himself as hispanic I believe.
                      Tim; I have proof that he's Mexican! "George Zimmerman" is the third most popular Mexican name out there...right after Jacob Goldberg and Darby O'Shaunnessy.

                      OK, I got nothing. You were right, I was wrong.
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              • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                As for cacker being "just the way they talk"? So is the N word ALSO! So is it OK if we start using it?
                Whose the "we"? Or are you just assuming that everyone on WF or in this thread is white? The truth is there is racism on both sides. Funny enough some whites/non african american are actually using the A Sharptons' of the world as an excuse and some are unwittingly allowing him playing the race card to tilt them to the racist side - kind of a knee jerk reaction to support the defendant at all costs as a rallying point against Sharpton and company.

                Sure you can be annoyed at his running to every situation involving potentially race but when you allow your annoyance to tilt your opinion of the case you ARE invoking a race based argument. Plus the answer to hype is not to push back against it because then in your reaction you end up a place where you would not be without it. The thing to do with hype is to object to it and then ignore it remaining level headed.

                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                Is anyone afraid of Mexican rioting if he's found guilty? No.
                Claude unfortunately that comment shows no depth of analysis.

                A)If you thought about it even for a minute you would realize sentiments and emotions will always run high on the side where someone has died. Thats just human emotion
                B) Riots are historically the resort of people who feel unempowered. The stupidity of people associating certain behaviors with race is that they ignore the underlying socio economic and political aspects of why they feel unempowered. News Flash - Anglo Saxons and other races have had riots in countries and situations where they felt unempowered. Why would the majority ever riot? Against whom? Themselves?
                C) The city of Sanford here in the Orlando area has a perceived history of being racist and no large Mexican contingency

                As to the idea they do not riot. It might help to Google every now and again

                https://www.google.com/search?q=mexi...w=1327&bih=556
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                • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                  Good points, except that majorities have rioted in the past. The US has a long history of rioting and many of the earliest and later riots were by the majority against minorities. One example I recall was the nationwide riots after Heavy weight boxing Champion Jack Johnson defeated Jeffries in 1910. The riots were angry whites attacking blacks.
                  Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post




                  A)If you thought about it even for a minute you would realize sentiments and emotions will always run high on the side where someone has died. Thats just human emotion
                  B) Riots are historically the resort of people who feel unempowered. The stupidity of people associating certain behaviors with race is that they ignore the underlying socio economic and political aspects of why they feel unempowered. News Flash - Anglo Saxons and other races have had riots in countries and situations where they felt unempowered. Why would the majority ever riot? Against whom? Themselves?
                  C) The city of Sanford here in the Orlando area has a perceived history of being racist and no large Mexican contingency

                  As to the idea they do not riot. It might help to Google every now and again

                  https://www.google.com/search?q=mexi...w=1327&bih=556
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                • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                  Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                  Whose the "we"? Or are you just assuming that everyone on WF or in this thread is white? The truth is there is racism on both sides. Funny enough some whites/non african american are actually using the A Sharptons' of the world as an excuse and some are unwittingly allowing him playing the race card to tilt them to the racist side - kind of a knee jerk reaction to support the defendant at all costs as a rallying point against Sharpton and company.
                  *****YOU***** are the one that felt I was talking about some superset of WF! The WE is technically non blacks!

                  Sure you can be annoyed at his running to every situation involving potentially race but when you allow your annoyance to tilt your opinion of the case you ARE invoking a race based argument. Plus the answer to hype is not to push back against it because then in your reaction you end up a place where you would not be without it. The thing to do with hype is to object to it and then ignore it remaining level headed.
                  A a person accused of racism must never in any way show the failing of such an accusation? Talk about "falling for it"! WOW!



                  A)If you thought about it even for a minute you would realize sentiments and emotions will always run high on the side where someone has died. Thats just human emotion
                  FUNNY! I remember when a woman went through a cougars(or was it a mountain line) territory, and the town wanted to kill that cat.

                  B) Riots are historically the resort of people who feel unempowered. The stupidity of people associating certain behaviors with race is that they ignore the underlying socio economic and political aspects of why they feel unempowered.
                  WOW, so BLACKS are the only ones so affected?

                  News Flash - Anglo Saxons and other races have had riots in countries and situations where they felt unempowered. Why would the majority ever riot? Against whom? Themselves?
                  It has actually been pretty rare. At least lately, it seems to be driven by a lot of planning, etc.... Of course, I was talking about the US. As for WHO they will riot against? AGAIN, you have mismatched groups, like in your first statement where you took my "we" to mean WF and that WF was only part of a white subset.

                  So WHO do they riot against? In the US, the latest gimic is to specify that 1% have almost all the money and that all %^&*( are in the 1% and are to enslave the "99%" and that THEY, and their leaders, are all the 99%. So they riot against the %^&*( who they are ALSO led to believe happen to be all white! The FACT is that FEW %^&*( are in the 1%, not all are white!, some are even BLACK, some of the "99%" ARE the 1%! But try telling THEM that!

                  C) The city of Sanford here in the Orlando area has a perceived history of being racist and no large Mexican contingency

                  As to the idea they do not riot. It might help to Google every now and again

                  https://www.google.com/search?q=mexi...w=1327&bih=556

                  I DID say "for something such as THIS" mexicans aren't known to riot. You could almost look up sneakers, or rodney king, or look in youtube to see such things for blacks.

                  Steve
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                • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                  Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                  Claude unfortunately that comment shows no depth of analysis.


                  B) Riots are historically the resort of people who feel unempowered. The stupidity of people associating certain behaviors with race is that they ignore the underlying socio economic and political aspects of why they feel unempowered. News Flash - Anglo Saxons and other races have had riots in countries and situations where they felt unempowered. Why would the majority ever riot? Against whom? Themselves?
                  Mike; First, I was wrong about Zimmerman being Mexican. I thought I remember hearing that on TV, but I was corrected...and I was wrong.

                  You are right about riots and the unempowered. It isn't a race thing, it's a socio economic thing. And some people frankly have less to lose when they act out their frustrations.

                  But we aren't talking about other countries, we are talking about this one.

                  And as unfair as this is, blacks on average feel more powerless than whites.

                  This is changing quickly, I think...but for now, history shows us that in the US, black people have a disadvantage....and they are rightly frustrated. Sometime that comes out in violence. Just like any group would do in the same position.

                  See? I'm not the fool you took me for.



                  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                  Steve; Have you ever smoked pot? I have, and all my friends have (a few decades ago). One thing I've never heard anyone say is "Watch out ! He's dangerous! He's been smoking pot!"
                  This isn't personal, I just thought it was funny. :rolleyes:
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                  • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post


                    See? I'm not the fool you took me for.
                    We have talked before - no I did not take you for a fool as I have a few others in this thread. I really don't know about riots. In Miami perhaps but I have never heard of riots in the orlando area (I now live here - though not in the Sanford area.) and I've been here for decades.

                    Central Florida has had a rep for racism though. This is a VERY emotionally charged case. What makes it charged is that its an undeniable fact that if not for being followed this young teen would still be alive. People can characterize him as a punk, as anything that they want but as he steps out of 7-11 he is not acting like a punk, he's not thinking violence. He's just on his way back home to watch the second half of an NBA all star game.

                    People are not acting like he is innocent. He WAS. Up until ZM gets out of his car and follows him he has committed no crime and to the extent that he ever did its provoked by the actions of an adult.

                    If he decides to attack and do bodily injury just for being followed then YES he goes from being innocent to being a criminal - but only one person knows what caused the scuffle and thats what will make it painful to alot of people for a very long time.

                    To be fair the kid definitely made a bad error in judgment even if he didn't start the scuffle. The same calls give a time line that gives him enough time to make it home. He should have ran and made in home. He decided to confront and ask why he is being followed. If ZM does what he is told then it never happens. If the kid just keeps running or even just runs for awhile and then stops but still continues home he's alive today.

                    Its a very sad event but at the end of the day when its all said and done its without doubt that the entire scenario begins with ZM disobeying directions from the authorities and the fact that death is irreversible which will always make this a very emotionally charged issue.
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            • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              The recent crime wave in the neighborhood factored into my thinking when I read about it... The insistence on presenting Martin as an "innocent child" rather than a "young man" bothered me .... The "accidental" editing of the 911 call to "prove" Zimmerman was a racist and the time discrepancies of Martin's location (where he told Rachel he was and where he was when killed) influenced me, too. The insistence and acceptance that "cracker" is not a racist term (it means 'slave owner') was incredible. "That's how we talk" is not an excuse for racist .

              I may be wrong - but my opinion is not based on the hype around this shooting but on my judgment of what is credible and what isn't.
              .
              Sorry Kay your opinion is based ENTIRELY on hype and little else. Go ahead look at everything you just listed. Its rather sad and shows alot more is at work in your mind besides facts

              1) Crime waves had nothing to do with the teen neither did the race of those who committed crime. If you claim otherwise that IS profiling
              2) he was not a legal adult so its just beyond silly to be upset that he was referred to as a child. he legally was a child. do you hear yourself? Its almost like because he is 6 foot and black he no longer qualifies to be called a child.
              3)how he was referred to after being DEAD has nothing to do with the case
              4) what cops did or did not do has NOTHING to do with whether the defendant tracked and killed the teen. Again reacting to hype and other peoples actions subsequent to the CHILD being killed is foolish reasoning.
              5) there was no insistence by the DEAD child that cracker was not a racist term. You are claiming that a Witness claiming that it was sways your opinion on the case which again is just silly and frankly sounds like you were baited by the teens girlfried to take a race based stance..

              In all that list there isn't a single fact you listed. its all emotional and hype related.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
            Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

            He was NOT "acting like a cop". He said he NEVER approached trevon. He ALSO said he was headed BACK to the car!

            Steve
            Educate yourself and use your brain. He was NOT heading back to the car. One of the facts we KNOW is the timing of the calls. From the time that he says the teen is by his car and then starts running until the time he is told not to follow is less than a minute. The call goes on for about another minute - enough time to have made it back to the car. Now look at where the shooting happened.



            Thats not near to his car AT ALL. Furthermore when the defendant is asked where he will be, so the police can meet him, He tells them to call him so he can tell him where he is. Truth is you can hear for several seconds the defendant still following after being told not to (theres no reason we would hear the rushing sound - the same one dispatch hears and asks him if he is following) to go back to his car.

            No doubt about it the defendant WAS playing cop.
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            • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
              Plus, in the walk through video he admits to keep walking forward after he was asked not to. He says he went past the sidewalk T to look for an address. :/ He also told the lead detective "I was just walking in the same direction" and Sarino said "That's following".
              Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

              Thats not near to his car AT ALL. Furthermore when the defendant is asked where he will be, so the police can meet him, He tells them to call him so he can tell him where he is. Truth is you can hear for several seconds the defendant still following after being told not to (theres no reason we would hear the rushing sound - the same one dispatch hears and asks him if he is following) to go back to his car.
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              • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                Plus, in the walk through video he admits to keep walking forward after he was asked not to. He says he went past the sidewalk T to look for an address. :/ He also told the lead detective "I was just walking in the same direction" and Sarino said "That's following".
                Following is FOLLOWING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                Recently, I got on an elevator a woman got on. We went to the same floor! We BOTH turned right! We BOTH turned right again! We BOTH went through one door, another, another, and another! That was like 30 YARDS! Was I following? NOPE! SHE turned right, and I turned left! WHAT, if trevon went in circles, zimmerman was to be TRAPPED, with NO place to go? GIVE ME A BREAK!

                Steve
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                • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                  Silly example. Of course he was following Trayvon. It's common sense.
                  Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                  Following is FOLLOWING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                  Recently, I got on an elevator a woman got on. We went to the same floor! We BOTH turned right! We BOTH turned right again! We BOTH went through one door, another, another, and another! That was like 30 YARDS! Was I following? NOPE! SHE turned right, and I turned left! WHAT, if trevon went in circles, zimmerman was to be TRAPPED, with NO place to go? GIVE ME A BREAK!

                  Steve
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            • Profile picture of the author seasoned
              Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

              Educate yourself and use your brain. He was NOT heading back to the car. One of the facts we KNOW is the timing of the calls. From the time that he says the teen is by his car and then starts running until the time he is told not to follow is less than a minute. The call goes on for about another minute - enough time to have made it back to the car. Now look at where the shooting happened.



              Thats not near to his car AT ALL. Furthermore when the defendant is asked where he will be, so the police can meet him, He tells them to call him so he can tell him where he is. Truth is you can hear for several seconds the defendant still following after being told not to (theres no reason we would hear the rushing sound - the same one dispatch hears and asks him if he is following) to go back to his car.

              No doubt about it the defendant WAS playing cop.
              I just heard on the repeat of the case, he indicated, on the 911 call, that trevon saw him, and was approaching him. He seemed to indicate that he was near the car. This MUST have been near the time trevon spoke to jeantel about the "crazy ass cracker", and said he was going to "see what his problem is". Why does NOBODY bring up the fact that treyvon was approaching zimmerman? and the 911 operator said they "didn't need him to follow them".

              Steve
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              • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                I just heard on the repeat of the case, he indicated, on the 911 call, that trevon saw him, and was approaching him. He seemed to indicate that he was near the car. This MUST have been near the time trevon spoke to jeantel about the "crazy ass cracker", and said he was going to "see what his problem is". Why does NOBODY bring up the fact that treyvon was approaching zimmerman? and the 911 operator said they "didn't need him to follow them".

                Steve
                Even if that is so Steve, that doesn't explain why or how the shooting took place so far away from Zimmerman's truck. How do YOU explain that?

                Just curious.

                Terra
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                • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                  Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                  Even if that is so Steve, that doesn't explain why or how the shooting took place so far away from Zimmerman's truck. How do YOU explain that?

                  Just curious.

                  Terra
                  I guess I would have to check that out, though there could be running, etc... STILL, it is interesting! People have said it is OK for treyvon to hit zimmerman, approach him, etc... Yet zimmerman must walk away, EVEN if that is into danger.

                  Steve
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              • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                He seemed to indicate that he was near the car. This MUST have been near the time trevon spoke to jeantel about the "crazy ass cracker", and said he was going to "see what his problem is". Why does NOBODY bring up the fact that treyvon was approaching zimmerman? and the 911 operator said they "didn't need him to follow them".

                Steve
                Seasoned your straight forward racism - as expressed earlier by your talking about what blacks do or have done and Mexicans do not - has you holding your hands to your ears and singing the same old song.

                The shooting did not happen near the car. the picture of where the body was is staring you RIGHT IN THE FACE. Yes the teen approached him and then he ran off from the car. Its all there in the tapes of the call to dispatch. That is not where or when the confrontation took place. The shooting took place where the A in the picture above designates.

                Your last hope is to claim ZM shot the kid and then dragged him around the corner :rolleyes:

                Sheesh the lengths people will go.
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                • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                  Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                  Seasoned your straight forward racism - as expressed earlier by your talking about what blacks do or have done and Mexicans do not - has you holding your hands to your ears and singing the same old song.
                  OK, recounting experience is racism? WOW!

                  The shooting did not happen near the car. the picture of where the body was is staring you RIGHT IN THE FACE. Yes the teen approached him and then he ran off from the car. Its all there in the tapes of the call to dispatch. That is not where or when the confrontation took place. The shooting took place where the A in the picture above designates.
                  If he ran off, that WOULD explain the difference. PLEASE explain why treyvon was there? NOBODY explained THAT! Oh SURE, the official story is he went to get skittles and icetea ******FOR HIS BROTHER****** because he was bored, but WHY did he loiter? WHY did he go after zimmerman? WHY DID HE STAY!??!?!?!?!?!?

                  Your last hope is to claim ZM shot the kid and then dragged him around the corner :rolleyes:

                  Sheesh the lengths people will go.
                  I said that the facts are consistent with what he claimed. THAT IS IT!

                  YOU are going to lengths! YOU(including your ilk and attorneys) said he was 12! He WASN'T! YOU said he was nice and innocent. HE WASN'T! YOU said he was approached! HE WASN'T! YOU keep saying there is evidence! THERE ISN'T! The BRADY RULE was violated, BY THE PROSECUTION! THEY are twisting the 911 words. They fired the IT guy for bringing this up! Dershowitz said they should be DISBARRED for this garbage!

                  Dershowitz: Zimmerman Prosecutors 'Should Be Disbarred'

                  HECK, they even said that Treyvon was shot POINT BLANK TO THE CHEST! ANOTHER lie! The ME said there was a GAP! The gun was up to the shirt that was AWAY from his skin! He FURTHER said that was consistent with Treyvon having a wet shirt and being on top of Zimmerman!

                  Steve
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                  • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                    I'm not sure why you bring up the fact that he went to buy something "******FOR HIS BROTHER******"? That isn't even in question. He wasn't loitering. That was one of the incorrect assumptions GZ made. Trayvon was outside, walking home to his father's place and talking to a friend. That's not illegal or even loitering. How do you know he went after Zimmerman? You are again just taking GZ's words as facts.
                    Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                    PLEASE explain why treyvon was there? NOBODY explained THAT! Oh SURE, the official story is he went to get skittles and icetea ******FOR HIS BROTHER****** because he was bored, but WHY did he loiter? WHY did he go after zimmerman? WHY DID HE STAY!??!?!?!?!?!?


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                    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                      Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                      I'm not sure why you bring up the fact that he went to buy something "******FOR HIS BROTHER******"? That isn't even in question. He wasn't loitering. .
                      Apparently theres two definitions. If you are walking , someone follows you and you decide to stay and ask them why they are following you then you are loitering and are suspicious . However if you are walking around with a gun on your hip following someone who has committed no wrong then you are perfectly legit.

                      Well as long as you are not "Blacks" who riot for some things
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                  • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                    Originally Posted by Patrician View Post

                    M
                    Please don't shoot him.
                    Pat just make sure he doesn't walk through the neighborhood of a few people in this thread. Shadows may confuse them.

                    Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                    OK, recounting experience is racism? WOW!
                    Whatever are your babbling about now? You can recount anything you want but making sweeping generalizations of what this group based on color does and what other groups based on colors do not IS racist - its quintessential racist. Stop talking about blacks this and white that and mexicans that and you may be on the way to recovery


                    YOU are going to lengths! YOU(including your ilk and attorneys) said he was 12! He WASN'T! YOU said he was nice and innocent. HE WASN'T! YOU said he was approached! HE WASN'T! YOU keep saying there is evidence! THERE ISN'T!
                    Oh my put a map and state some facts that they cannot deal with and they go in full crazy rant mode. Now apparently I have done all these things accused. Remind me not to wear a hoodie next winter when I will be in a new neighborhood.. I might have to answer why I was loitering walking around in MY neighborhood

                    LOL.
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  • Profile picture of the author socialentry
    Banned
    Is it true that if the jury doesn't come to a conclusion, they get to stay in hotels and order room service at the expense of the state like in the Simpsons?

    We don't have jury duty in Canada (or if we do, no one told me).
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    • Profile picture of the author yukon
      Banned
      Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

      Is it true that if the jury doesn't come to a conclusion, they get to stay in hotels and order room service at the expense of the state like in the Simpsons?

      We don't have jury duty in Canada (or if we do, no one told me).
      Depends on the case, a high profile case like this, yes, those jurors will be fed & stay in a secured hotel away from the media/family/friends/weirdos/pets/mailmen/etc...
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Dershowitz: Zimmerman Prosecutors 'Should Be Disbarred'

    As for cacker being "just the way they talk"? So is the N word ALSO! So is it OK if we start using it? Samuel Clemens, and many southern whites used it, so I guess the N word is ok to say now ALSO!

    As for cracker? Until some black used the term at a Michael Richards act, and MR over reacted, I didn't even know the term. He DID react though, and people understood, so it OBVIOUSLY is as insulting to some whites as the N word s to blacks!

    And words mean NOTHING! HECK, it is interesting that the people that SO want to ban words change them SO often that many are now WORTHLESS! But the INTENT! And why do they not say white, or caucasion, or some such? NOPE, they said CRACKER! To make it CLEARER, and clear to ANYONE, they add "crazy ass".

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Patrician
    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

    And my wife is 100% sure of Zimmerman's guilt. The idea of anyone using a gun for any reason is just not part of her makeup.


    I have been tempted to get a gun many times. But I have been told never to pull it out unless I am ready to use it - and it is just such a scenario as some dumb teenage kid in the hood gone wrong, where I would seriously not be able to pull the trigger - that is consciously - who knows what happens when we are terrified.

    What just keeps niggling at me is how many kids have been suspended from school? Why is this any kind of justification that it was ok to kill him? This fact and everything else he did in his short life should not have any significance AT ALL - it is completely beside the point and is what I mean by bias.

    Was he guilty of loitering? Does this justify being killed? No - only if he was a direct threat to Z's life then it may be understandable.

    ... and again because some OTHER black kids had been arrested for robbing the complex or whatever, AGAIN this is racial bias to therefore use it as justification to kill him.

    Whether Z is found guilty of 1, 2 or 3 - we will all have to agree to disagree and move on. I hope lots of teenage punks learned a lesson as well as the vigilantes. There are consequences to having 'free will' - sometimes fatal.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

      Plus, in the walk through video he admits to keep walking forward after he was asked not to. He says he went past the sidewalk T to look for an address. :/ He also told the lead detective "I was just walking in the same direction" and Sarino said "That's following".
      I might have missed it Tim but the one thing I didn't hear brought up is that Zimmerman himself states right before the scuffle that he reaches into his pocket to get his phone.

      That was a wow moment to me but I never heard it discussed. What ever handedness he is it would stand to reason that his gun would be on that side and a good possibility that the phone was on the same side. I got to say If I am the teen rather than risk being shot I very well might have decked him and yes attempted to take him out of commission. I fully believe the kid was on top of him but its the why is the question and a guy reaching toward a gun is a REALLY GOOD reason.

      Originally Posted by Patrician View Post


      What just keeps niggling at me is how many kids have been suspended from school? Why is this any kind of justification that it was ok to kill him? .
      Or Marijuana....I know ton loads of white, black, hispanic kids that unfortunately have used that and not been vicious plus he didn't have enough to affect his actions that night.
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      • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
        Yep. So according to GZ, Trayvon approached him and asked him something like "You have a problem?" and GZ says he said "I don't" then he reaches for something, either for his phone, which doesn't really make sense since he already called the cops, or his gun. Either way, why didn't he just say who he was and that he called the cops already? Plus, yes, just reaching for something in those circumstances is a good reason to punch the guy before he gets it.
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        I might have missed it Tim but the one thing I didn't hear brought up is that Zimmerman himself states right before the scuffle that he reaches into his pocket to get his phone.

        That was a wow moment to me but I never heard it discussed. What ever handedness he is it would stand to reason that his gun would be on that side and a good possibility that the phone was on the same side. I got to say If I am the teen rather than risk being shot I very well might have decked him and yes attempted to take him out of commission. I fully believe the kid was on top of him but its the why is the question and a guy reaching toward a gun is a REALLY GOOD reason.


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      • Profile picture of the author Patrician
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post


        Or Marijuana....I know ton loads of white, black, hispanic kids that unfortunately have used that and not been vicious plus he didn't have enough to affect his actions that night.
        My very own son was suspended in the 7th grade for bringing pot to school (that he grew himself - (who knew?)) LOL.

        He is pure white bread - in those days an actual blonde Irish-Italian - never been in a bit of trouble otherwise to this day. Totally non-violent - Graduated college, paid off his student loans, takes care of his 90 year old grandma, etc. ... and still a stoner to this day - (and not 'unfortunately' - he broke the mold on dead alcoholic grandfathers on both sides).

        Please don't shoot him.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    I am surprised more of you here did not volunteer to be expert witnesses for this trial.

    Mike Anthony, I had to laugh at this:
    "Or Marijuana....I know ton loads of white, black, hispanic kids that unfortunately have used that and not been vicious plus he didn't have enough to affect his actions that night."

    While I agree with the first part, that many have used it without getting violent, How can you say he did not have enough to affect his actions? Were you there hitting the blunt with him? :rolleyes:

    By the way, Zimmerman refers to himself as hispanic. It is the press that has always tried to make him white. Following the logic of some here, that would make Obama white.
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    • Profile picture of the author yukon
      Banned
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      I am surprised more of you here did not volunteer to be expert witnesses for this trial.
      Exactly what I was talking about here.

      The whole concept of a jury is a joke, which liar is a juror supposed to believe, the defendant or plaintiff? Not just this case, all cases.

      Simple things can sway a jury, example If a defendant walks into a court room in shackles & orange jail jumpsuit it screams guilty. I think they stopped that from happening these days (orange jumpsuit/shackles in front of a jury) my point is little things can sway a jury decision because the jury isn't a witness, they have no clue what's real in the case.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      I am surprised more of you here did not volunteer to be expert witnesses for this trial.

      Mike Anthony, I had to laugh at this:
      "Or Marijuana....I know ton loads of white, black, hispanic kids that unfortunately have used that and not been vicious plus he didn't have enough to affect his actions that night."

      While I agree with the first part, that many have used it without getting violent, How can you say he did not have enough to affect his actions? Were you there hitting the blunt with him? :rolleyes:

      By the way, Zimmerman refers to himself as hispanic. It is the press that has always tried to make him white. Following the logic of some here, that would make Obama white.
      Marijuana DOES limit inhibitions which ALONE could exacerbate this!!!!

      Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Mike Anthony, I had to laugh at this:
      "Or Marijuana....I know ton loads of white, black, hispanic kids that unfortunately have used that and not been vicious plus he didn't have enough to affect his actions that night."
      Who really cares what you laugh at? Unfortunately silly people entertain themselves in their own minds all the time. Of course I was not there smoking the blunt with him (utterly stupid question). I was referring to a host of sources that take issue with the fact that it was at any level in the toxicology report (remember those?) that would have mattered toward him being violent

      http://www.hlntv.com/video/2012/05/17/dr-drew-talks-trayvon-martin-autposy-report

      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/17/trayvon-martin-case-marijuana-found-in-blood_n_1525840.html

      Martin's autopsy indicated that medical examiners found THC, the psychoactive ingredient in marijuana, when they tested Martin's blood and urine. The amount described in the autopsy report is such a low level that it would have played no role in Martin's behavior, said Larry Kobilinsky, a professor of forensic science at John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York.
      http://www.alternet.org/drugs/scientist-trayvon-martins-marijuana-use-had-nothing-do-night-he-died?amp&amp&amp

      Now next time answer with some differences of opinions from medical personnel (which there are). It will be a much more intelligent response.
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      • Profile picture of the author KimW
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        Who really cares what you laugh at? Unfortunately silly people entertain themselves in their own minds all the time. Of course I was not there smoking the blunt with him (utterly stupid question). I was referring to a host of sources that take issue with the fact that it was at any level in the toxicology report (remember those?) that would have mattered toward him being violent

        Dr. Drew: Pot in Trayvon

        Trayvon Martin Case: Evidence Of Marijuana Found In Martin's Blood



        Scientist: Trayvon Martin's Marijuana Use Had Nothing to Do with the Night He Died | Alternet

        Now next time answer with some differences of opinions from medical personnel (which there are). It will be a much more intelligent response.
        My responses are not here to meet your approval.
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        • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
          Originally Posted by KimW View Post

          My responses are not here to meet your approval.
          Well, this one just met mine.


          Terra
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by KimW View Post

          My responses are not here to meet your approval.
          or apparently to make any attempt at common sense As for not needing approval ...there we entirely agree. I've never asked yours and never will.
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          • Profile picture of the author KimW
            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

            or apparently to make any attempt at common sense As for not needing approval ...there we entirely agree. I've always asked for yours and always will.
            Now you have your responses confused with mine.

            I corrected that for you.
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            • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
              Originally Posted by KimW View Post

              Now you have your responses confused with mine.

              I corrected that for you.
              I don't have anything confused and judging by your reasoning skills you could not correct the time on a wound up clock. Read the links yet? or still trying to claim I must have been there when the blunt was lit? Lol..WF...has got some really bright people I tell ya.

              Originally Posted by KimW View Post

              Take hispanic and black out of the equation and what do you have? (Leave whites out as there were none involved ).
              Two human beings.......Novel concept for you isn't it?

              Besides there is no whites out of anything. If race had anything to do with this case then as a society we shaped those views. Like it or not both Whites and Blacks have created those views in this country so one race cannot step out of the equation in the discussion of a racist activity. It does not wash as a construct of how racist views were built and perpetuated - no more than a meddling mother in law can claim the the subsequent fight between husband and wife on an issue she had harped on had no bearing on the matter.

              As the song goes - we are all in this together.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    Steve,
    I may not have made my point,which was that with pot,it is not quantity but quality that determines how much it takes to affect someone.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      Steve,
      I may not have made my point,which was that with pot,it is not quantity but quality that determines how much it takes to affect someone.
      That is ANOTHER thing! Marijuana dealers DON'T necessarily care WHAT they sell! The marijuana(a light drug) could even have been laced with crack or amphetamines.

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    Take hispanic and black out of the equation and what do you have? (Leave whites out as there were none involved ).
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    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      Take hispanic and black out of the equation and what do you have? (Leave whites out as there were none involved ).
      Race wasn't mentioned at all until the last day and that was only one short sentence by the defense I believe. So what we have is the same thing really, an overzealous, imo, neighborhood watch guy following an unarmed teenager who was not doing anything illegal, getting into a physical confrontation and then killing him.

      What kind of bothers me about the defense is they keep asking "where's the evidence?" Well, this case isn't a whodunnit. We know who shot and killed someone else. The case is more about whether the killer was justified and if his story is credible. Poking holes in GZs story makes his story less credible. I don't think they need any more evidence to convict, at least not for manslaughter, if the jury thinks GZ is lying.
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      • Profile picture of the author KimW
        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

        Race wasn't mentioned at all until the last day and that was only one short sentence by the defense I believe. So what we have is the same thing really, an overzealous, imo, neighborhood watch guy following an unarmed teenager who was not doing anything illegal, getting into a physical confrontation and then killing him.

        What kind of bothers me about the defense is they keep asking "where's the evidence?" Well, this case isn't a whodunnit. We know who shot and killed someone else. The case is more about whether the killer was justified and if his story is credible. Poking holes in GZs story makes his story less credible. I don't think they need any more evidence to convict, at least not for manslaughter, if the jury thinks GZ is lying.
        Tim,
        I was talking about this thread when I said that.
        In this thread race has been an issue since the thread was started.
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        • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
          I don't think it started out that way. The first posts to bring race into it were #5 and #7. After that there were **************MANY************** others!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          Originally Posted by KimW View Post

          Tim,
          I was talking about this thread when I said that.
          In this thread race has been an issue since the thread was started.
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          • Profile picture of the author KimW
            Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

            I don't think it started out that way. The first posts to bring race into it were #5 and #7. After that there were **************MANY************** others!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
            I'd call #5 and #7 since the beginning.
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      • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

        Race wasn't mentioned at all until the last day and that was only one short sentence by the defense I believe. So what we have is the same thing really, an overzealous, imo, neighborhood watch guy following an unarmed teenager who was not doing anything illegal, getting into a physical confrontation and then killing him.

        What kind of bothers me about the defense is they keep asking "where's the evidence?" Well, this case isn't a whodunnit. We know who shot and killed someone else. The case is more about whether the killer was justified and if his story is credible. Poking holes in GZs story makes his story less credible. I don't think they need any more evidence to convict, at least not for manslaughter, if the jury thinks GZ is lying.
        Well said, Tim!

        Why couldn't everybody have seen it like that from the very beginning rather than stirring up a bunch of bee hives?

        Terra
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

          Well said, Tim!

          Why couldn't everybody have seen it like that from the very beginning rather than stirring up a bunch of bee hives?

          Terra
          Well, if we are to take that as im wrote, then the US, UK, AU, RUSSIA, etc.... Have MANY war criminals for killing all those NAZIs! Or HEY, how about the US, and egypt against those rioters?

          CIRCUMSTANCES MATTER! ********THAT******** was the statement from the first moment! REMEMBER the "stand your ground" defense, etc? FORGET any beliefe of it applying, the very fact that it was even MENTIONED is germane here!

          BTW if it did NOT matter here, Zimmerman would have been convicted LONG ago! The world would also be a LOT smaller, if it weren't in the rule of law! It is law EVERYWHERE, and has been for thousands of years. The BIBLE talks about it!

          Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
            Geesh. Your examples are just way over the top! Lol. So, you are now comparing GZ to the allies in WW2 and Trayvon to the Nazis? 8/ Yikes! As far as I know, they hadn't declared war with each other.

            Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

            Well, if we are to take that as im wrote, then the US, UK, AU, RUSSIA, etc.... Have MANY war criminals for killing all those NAZIs! Or HEY, how about the US, and egypt against those rioters?

            CIRCUMSTANCES MATTER! ********THAT******** was the statement from the first moment! REMEMBER the "stand your ground" defense, etc? FORGET any beliefe of it applying, the very fact that it was even MENTIONED is germane here!

            BTW if it did NOT matter here, Zimmerman would have been convicted LONG ago! The world would also be a LOT smaller, if it weren't in the rule of law! It is law EVERYWHERE, and has been for thousands of years. The BIBLE talks about it!

            Steve
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            • Profile picture of the author seasoned
              Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

              Geesh. Your examples are just way over the top! Lol. So, you are now comparing GZ to the allies in WW2 and Trayvon to the Nazis? 8/ Yikes! As far as I know, they hadn't declared war with each other.
              NOPE! THEY weren't convicted, or even accused, BECAUSE OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES! It is acknowledged that they killed people. Sometimes only on where they were, loitering, trespass, or SUSPICION!

              Steve
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            • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
              Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

              Geesh. Your examples are just way over the top! Lol. So, you are now comparing GZ to the allies in WW2 and Trayvon to the Nazis? 8/ Yikes! As far as I know, they hadn't declared war with each other.
              Thanks for your synopsis, Tim.

              I was just going to ask Steve what the heck he was talking about. I wasn't sure what this case has to do with the UK, UA and Russia at all.

              But comparing it to major world war crimes is like comparing a thimble full of water to an ocean.

              Terra
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      • Profile picture of the author KimW
        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

        Race wasn't mentioned at all until the last day and that was only one short sentence by the defense I believe. So what we have is the same thing really, an overzealous, imo, neighborhood watch guy following an unarmed teenager who was not doing anything illegal, getting into a physical confrontation and then killing him.

        What kind of bothers me about the defense is they keep asking "where's the evidence?" Well, this case isn't a whodunnit. We know who shot and killed someone else. The case is more about whether the killer was justified and if his story is credible. Poking holes in GZs story makes his story less credible. I don't think they need any more evidence to convict, at least not for manslaughter, if the jury thinks GZ is lying.
        Since you quoted me Tim I have to respond again in case you missed it.
        When I said that I was talking about this thread,as people have called others racist in this thread.

        As far as the rest of your post, You know I am more in agreement with you than disagreement.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

        Poking holes in GZs story makes his story less credible. I don't think they need any more evidence to convict, at least not for manslaughter, if the jury thinks GZ is lying.

        Agreed. I can't see second degree murder. Race to me also played a small role (I can't rule it out with profiling). I don't even know if ZM knew what race he was at first. Being Hispanic especially he knows they can be very dark. The evidence to me is manslaughter.

        You pointed out a key point - reaching for your phone instead of your gun when you encounter someone you fear makes no sense. The most likely situation is he reached for his gun and that mere action escalates the situation to where the teen has a right to be scared and take action.

        Zimmerman himself in the account he tells indicates the teen was aware of the presence of the gun. So he is there with a guy with a gun that has refused to tell him who he is. Scary situation and a scenario all set up by ZM
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        • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
          Something that the prosecution didn't mention until the end really, is if the gun wasn't already out when they were on the ground, how in the world did Trayvon see it and grab for it?

          It was a black gun in a black holster under GZs jacket and shirt inside his pants and behind him in about the same place a guy has his wallet!

          Plus, if Trayvon was indeed on top of Zimmerman straddling him with his knees up by his armpits how in the world would he see his lower body anyways? Plus, how would Zimmerman be able to grab it from there if he was straddling him? Totally unbelievable story. I am surprised they waited so long to bring it up and frankly I think they saw someone else bring it up on TV first before they thought about it.

          Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

          Agreed. I can't see second degree murder. Race to me also played a small role (I can't rule it out with profiling). I don't even know if ZM knew what race he was at first. Being Hispanic especially he knows they can be very dark. The evidence to me is manslaughter.

          You pointed out a key point - reaching for your phone instead of your gun when you encounter someone you fear makes no sense. The most likely situation is he reached for his gun and that mere action escalates the situation to where the teen has a right to be scared and take action.

          Zimmerman himself in the account he tells indicates the teen was aware of the presence of the gun. So he is there with a guy with a gun that has refused to tell him who he is. Scary situation and a scenario all set up by ZM
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
            Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

            Something that the prosecution didn't mention until the end really, is if the gun wasn't already out when they were on the ground, how in the world did Trayvon see it and grab for it?
            The evidence of the timing regarding phone calls indicates that Trayvon did not head home. Even walking regular pace he should have been way down the path than where he was shot. Whatever I might think of Zimmerman if he was out for blood he would not have called the cops.

            The evidence suggest there was a confrontation that most likely DID surprise ZM. Zimmerman admits words were exchanged so it was NOT an immediate physical confrontation)So the most likely scenario is he reached for the one equalizer he thought he would have in an altercation and as we both admit the moment that happens all bets would be off. The kid would be entirely justified in using ANY force against an armed man. Running then would not ensure not being shot in the back.

            Its a bad set of miscalculations but in the end regardless of what happened its ZM that puts the whole scenario in play and so is deserving of manslaughter
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
    The closing arguments pleaded with the jury to not base their decisions on emotion all the while they're constantly showing strong emotions.

    Do as I say, not as I do. :rolleyes:


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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    Mike Anthony
    There is one thing that is common in all your posts in this thread.Insulting members of the forum that don't agree with you.


    While I never claimed you were there,I did point out the fallacy in your argument.
    Maybe you should go into stand up. Clearly critical thinking and logic are not your areas of expertise.

    Edit:
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by KimW View Post
    Take hispanic and black out of the equation and what do you have? (Leave whites out as there were none involved ).

    Mark Anthony:
    "Two human beings.......Novel concept for you isn't it?"

    Obviously not. :rolleyes:

    Treating people with decency is not a novel concept for me either,maybe you should try it sometime?
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      There is one thing that is common in all your posts in this thread.Insulting members of the forum that don't agree with you.
      Kim anyone who can read can turn back and see you started with the mockery of my position (and yes I know you have cronies here so I mean honest unbiased people ). Whining now because you cannot handle the rebut to your mockery is childish.

      While I never claimed you were there,I did point out the fallacy in your argument.
      You pointed out nothing. I both made it clear and gave my resource links that I was referring to professional opinions by medical experts FROM THE TOXICOLOGY Report.

      Maybe you should go into stand up. Clearly critical thinking and logic are not your areas of expertise.
      Empty bluster from a person that to this point has yet to address the links given or the medical opinions stated.
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      • Profile picture of the author KimW
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        ]

        Kim anyone who can read can turn back and see you started with the mockery of my position (and yes I know you have cronies here so I mean honest unbiased people ). Whining now because you cannot handle the rebut to your mockery is childish.



        You pointed out nothing. I both made it clear and gave my resource links that I was referring to professional opinions by medical experts FROM THE TOXICOLOGY Report.



        Empty bluster from a person that to this point has yet to address the links given or the medical opinions stated.

        Seriously?
        This is probably your most pathetic post yet.
        Do I have friends here? I hope so, but I don't need or even see any taking sides here. But to say they are dishonest is again your way of trying to insult. By the way,I also know several people that don't like me. Part of life.

        And whining? Who is whining?
        What rebuke did you dish out that was suppose to make me whine?

        Neither myself or many others here do not need toxicology reports to know the statement you made was laughable.

        And the actual links? Dr Drew?? come on.:rolleyes:

        Edit:
        By the way,for those that missed it,here is my "mockery" of his position:

        http://www.warriorforum.com/off-topi...ml#post8276041
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by KimW View Post

          Seriously?
          This is probably your most pathetic post yet.
          Do I have friends here? I hope so, but I don't need or even see any taking sides here. But to say they are dishonest is again your way of trying to insult.
          Good night you cannot even read can you? I singled out none of your friends being dishonest. I merely noted that YES there are people who back up others on the basis of friendship but that any honest person can see you starting the mocking. They are free to demonstrate what camp they are in should they choose to do so - their call . You are not talking to some newb to WF. I have seen it on many occasions.

          And the actual links? Dr Drew?? come on.:rolleyes:
          ROFL. pathetic is the right word (although in fairness I can't choose the most pathetic on your side yet. Theres such a rich supply of choices).

          Don't like Drew? There were three different links. Laughable is the right word. So far all we have from you is KimW's professional opinion and not a thing to do with rebutting what experts have stated. So ahem yes all we have had is your WHINING about me without DEALING with the facts or attempting any intelligent sound rebuttal.

          Its entirely accurate. Anytime you want to get back on the subject feel free
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          • Profile picture of the author KimW
            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

            Good night you cannot even read can you? I singled out none of your friends being dishonest. I merely noted that YES there are people who back up others on the basis of friendship but that any honest person can see you starting the mocking. They are free to demonstrate what camp they are in should they choose to do so - their call . You are not talking to some newb to WF. I have seen it on many occasions.



            ROFL. pathetic is the right word (although in fairness I can't choose the most pathetic on your side yet. Theres such a rich supply of choices).

            Don't like Drew? There were three different links. Laughable is the right word. So far all we have from you is KimW's professional opinion and not a thing to do with rebutting what experts have stated. So ahem yes all we have had is your WHINING about me without DEALING with the facts or attempting any intelligent sound rebuttal.

            Its entirely accurate. Anytime you want to get back on the subject feel free
            The only words in that post worth reading are highlighted.
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            • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
              AS OF LITERALLY 2 SECONDS AGO, A VERDICT HAS BEEN REACHED.

              STAY TUNED TO FIND OUT WHAT THE VERDICT IS.

              That is all.
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              • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                Looks good for Zimm but any which way there can be no happy ending to this for him.
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                • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
                  Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                  Looks good for Zimm but any which way there can be no happy ending to this for him.
                  Sadly, this is correct.

                  He will most likely be murdered by the Black Panthers.

                  PS - this is NOT a racist remark - simply check the twitter accounts of BP members.

                  They have been preparing for this from day 1, and it appears we are about to see what they have in store...

                  Again, stay safe out there everyone. This will likely not be good.

                  I am more than ready to protect myself, my family, and my property if trouble comes to my door.

                  I can only pray that all of you are just as ready.

                  If any of you (and I'm sure a lot of you do) remember the King riots.. ha.. I have a feeling that is just a preview compared to what is coming from this.

                  Best of luck everyone.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                    Originally Posted by Whos That Guru View Post

                    If any of you (and I'm sure a lot of you do) remember the King riots.. ha.. I have a feeling that is just a preview compared to what is coming from this.

                    Best of luck everyone.
                    Where do you live????? I live IN Orlando and I will not be packing. Thats all we need. People walking around with guns expecting to be taken down by every black person walking by.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
                      Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                      Where do you live????? I live IN Orlando and I will not be packing. Thats all we need. People walking around with guns expecting to be taken down by every black person walking by.
                      Keep trying to put words in my mouth. Not working dude.

                      I will be staying in my home tonight, however when I am out in public, I carry every single day, every single place I go to.

                      Not once have I EVER thought that "every black person I see is going to try and take me down"

                      Get a grip. Seriously.

                      And for the record, I live in a town with a 90% black population.

                      That is where I live.

                      As I have said time & time again, prepare for the worst, but hope for the best.

                      That is all we can do, and that is all I am doing, and that is all I am suggesting everybody else does.
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                      • Profile picture of the author socialentry
                        Banned
                        Looks like Mike got 0wn3d.

                        What was the prosecution thinking? They could have at least groomed their star witness.



                        WHO IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD ANSWER THE QUESTION BY "NO SIR, ERR DURR DERP URRR"?
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                        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                          Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

                          Looks like Mike got 0wn3d.
                          You can always tell the 12 year olds on WF . Somebody is dead. Someone else will always have to look over their shoulder and they are talking about someone on a forum getting owned because a jury made a decision no one ever stated they would not.

                          Truth is like it or not you can see it on this forum in spades - Racist have attached themselves to both sides of this case.
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              • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
                ZIMMERMAN HAS BEEN FOUND NOT GUILTY

                NOT GUILTY - AND RIGHTFULLY SO!!!!

                My friends.... prepare yourselves, because civil unrest is coming..

                We all know there is going to be problems stemming from this.

                Even the Seminole County police issued PSA's and statements, BEGGING people not to riot if found not guilty.

                If THEY know what is coming, you should too.

                Stay safe out there, and have a great, gun carryin' day.
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            • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
              I think you might need to spend a bit more time away from your precious chemicals (as shown in your avatar) because they are clearly clouding your judgement and interpretation skills.

              @Tim, it does NOT matter whether he was captain of neighborhood watch or not.

              He was licensed to carry a firearm in the state of florida, simple as that.

              Just like MILLIONS of other people across the country.

              Everyone who is saying "he never should have gotten out of the car with his gun" has no idea what they are talking about.

              I don't care if I'm only going in to a retail store.

              My pistol is on my hip while in the car, and it is sure as hell coming with me when I get out (as long as it is permitted in that area by law, of course)

              This is/was a clear case of self defense. Anyone who says differently has not watched the entire trial and seen all of the so-called "evidence" against him.

              If you TRULY feel this way about him carrying a gun, you might want to avoid your local WalMart, fast-food shops, gas stations, etc... because 9 times out of 10, SOMEONE in that establishment is carrying - whether it be a worker or a customer.

              Here's a headline for you:

              500 MILLION RESPONSIBLE GUN OWNERS KILLED NOBODY TODAY (OR YESTERDAY, FOR THAT MATTER!)
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              • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                Doesn't give him a license to kill though and that's what worries me. We don't need a bunch of dim witted yahoos like GZ out there thinking they are tough because they have the hidden equalizer tucked away.
                Originally Posted by Whos That Guru View Post


                @Tim, it does NOT matter whether he was captain of neighborhood watch or not.

                He was licensed to carry a firearm in the state of florida, simple as that.

                Just like MILLIONS of other people across the country.

                Everyone who is saying "he never should have gotten out of the car with his gun" has no idea what they are talking about.

                I don't care if I'm only going in to a retail store.

                My pistol is on my hip while in the car, and it is sure as hell coming with me when I get out (as long as it is permitted in that area by law, of course)

                This is/was a clear case of self defense. Anyone who says differently has not watched the entire trial and seen all of the so-called "evidence" against him.
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  • Profile picture of the author socialentry
    Banned
    The legal analysis of Mike Anthony is pretty funny.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

      The legal analysis of Mike Anthony is pretty funny. He should be a lawyer.

      roflmao
      Perhaps

      On the other hand the jury just asked the court for clarification on what constitutes manslaughter so regardless of whether they find him guilty or not Mike Anthony isn't being ridiculous at all.
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      • Profile picture of the author yukon
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        On the other hand the jury just asked the court for clarification on what constitutes manslaughter...
        True, but they probably also eventually asked for a restroom break over the course of the day.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by yukon View Post

          True, but they probably also eventually asked for a restroom break over the course of the day.
          Umm ......and???

          LOL

          Oh I guess you were predicting they would consider that
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          • Profile picture of the author yukon
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

            Umm ......and???

            LOL

            Oh I guess you were predicting they would consider that
            Lol, just saying they probably ask for a bunch of things that never get reported by the media.

            If it was me, I would keep asking when do we eat?
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            • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
              Originally Posted by yukon View Post

              Lol, just saying they probably ask for a bunch of things that never get reported by the media.
              Nope. This is not a matter of some ordinary request not usually reported . The attorneys had to go back into court and the judge has to make a ruling on how to proceed. They did not ask for clarification on Second degree. Its simply common sense. They are looking closely at that. Mind you doesn't at all mean they are going to convict on it.
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              • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                Nope. This is not a matter of some ordinary request not usually reported . The attorneys had to go back into court and the judge has to make a ruling on how to proceed. They did not ask for clarification on Second degree. Its simply common sense. They are looking closely at that. Mind you doesn't at all mean they are going to convict on it.

                Man! It seems like you want to debate everything someone says. What's the matter? Too old for the high school debate team?

                Terra
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                • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                  Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                  Man! It seems like you want to debate everything someone says. What's the matter? Too old for the high school debate team?

                  Terra
                  I graduated......Why you still on the team? You MUST have seniority.
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                  • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                    Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                    I graduated......Why you still on the team?
                    Yes, I am as a matter of fact, even though I graduated. I won so many debates, they made me a life long honorary member.


                    Terra
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                    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                      Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                      Yes, I am as a matter of fact, even though I graduated. I won so many debates, they made me a life long honorary member.
                      Is THAT what you tell all the new kids coming into the class? and/or that you have Progeria?

                      Very creative
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                      • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post


                        Very creative
                        Not! That was very mean.

                        I'll have you know that I did not experience growth failure during the first year of life nor have a wrinkled face. As a matter of fact, people often say I look 20 to 30 years younger than I am. I'm not bald, still have my eyebrows and eyelashes, nor do I have a large head or small chin.

                        I think you suffer from failing eye sight as my avatar is right there for you to see and not obscured in any way like yours is.

                        Further more, quit thinking you are an aristophren, because clearly, you are not. :p

                        Terra
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                        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                          Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                          Not! That was very mean.

                          I'll have you know that I did not experience growth failure during the first year of life nor have a wrinkled face. As a matter of fact, people often say I look 20 to 30 years younger than I am. I'm not bald, still have my eyebrows and eyelashes, nor do I have a large head or small chin.
                          Rofl. Relax Terra. Nothing mean about it. I was referring to the aging not wrinkling and other aspect of the disease to signify you are clearly not high school material but referring to it.

                          I think you suffer from failing eye sight as my avatar is right there for you to see and not obscured in any way like yours is.
                          Thats to keep the ladies from swooning. never know when one might be driving and lose control. :p

                          As for your avatar. Photoshop I hear is great for removing lines. Its the new botox and cheaper lol

                          Further more, quit thinking you are an aristophren, because clearly, you are not. :p
                          Qualifications will be required before compliance to your request. Latest IQ test in triplicate with seal of certification as to authenticity as a minimum - Or else its a request by someone unqualified to make the necessary assessment.
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                          • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                            Rofl. Relax Terra. Nothing mean about it. I was referring to the aging not wrinkling and other aspect of the disease to signify you are clearly not high school material but referring to it.



                            Thats to keep the ladies from swooning. never know when one might be driving and lose control. :p

                            As for your avatar. Photoshop I hear is great for removing lines. Its the new botox and cheaper lol



                            Qualifications will be required before compliance to your request. Latest IQ test in triplicate with seal of certification as to authenticity as a minimum - Or else its a request by someone unqualified to make the necessary assessment.
                            Haha! If you knew me the slightest bit, you would know that I am a complete techytard and couldn't remove wrinkles from my face in Photoshop even if I had any to remove.

                            I'll make another assessment. I assess that you are behaving worse than a sophist and more like a casuist.


                            Terra
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                            • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                              Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                              Haha! If you knew me the slightest bit, you would know that I am a complete techytard and couldn't remove wrinkles from my face in Photoshop even if I had any to remove.
                              even if? I like that. You go girl! However after saying you look up to 30 years younger than you are I am afraid the cat has come out of the bag and is purring .. Sorry my lady but at 50 plus there are some wrinkles somewhere. Nothing to be ashamed of - Time marches on and no man changes the beat. Just do the salsa gracefully. Its all any of us can do.

                              I'll make another assessment. I assess that you are behaving worse than a sophist and more like a casuist.
                              I'll make my first. You dictionary and thesaurus.com has never seen more use of your finger tips.

                              However there is no reason to try and impress me as I am married and even if I were not and interested- as Billy Joel would say I wouldn't need the clever conversation -I'd take you just the way you are.
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                              • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                                Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                                even if? I like that. You go girl! However after saying you look up to 30 years younger than you are I am afraid the cat has come out of the bag and is purring .. Sorry my lady but at 50 plus there are some wrinkles somewhere. Nothing to be ashamed of - Time marches on and no man changes the beat. Just do the salsa gracefully. Its all any of us can do.
                                Who said anything about plus ?

                                I don't have any wrinkles, I have some laugh lines around my eyes that make my eyes twinkle when I smile, but no wrinkles.



                                Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post


                                However there is no reason to try and impress me as I am married and even if I were not and interested- as Billy Joel would say I wouldn't need the clever conversation -I'd take you just the way you are.
                                Ha! I'm not trying to impress you at all. I thought we were debating.

                                Well, I am married too and if even if I weren't, I'd have to tell you that flattery will only get you so far. :p


                                Terra
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                                • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                                  Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                                  Ha! I'm not trying to impress you at all. I thought we were debating.
                                  LOL okay...but ....um... About what again?

                                  Well, I am married too and if even if I weren't, I'd have to tell you that flattery will only get you so far. :p

                                  Then congratulations are in order to your husband. You are spunky and oh so more entertaining than Kim
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                                  • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                                    Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                                    LOL okay...but .... About what again?
                                    Ummm, I think we were debating about debating, lol.




                                    Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                                    Then congratulations are in order to your husband. You are spunky and oh so more entertaining than Kim
                                    Thank You!

                                    Terra
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              • Profile picture of the author yukon
                Banned
                Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                Nope. This is not a matter of some ordinary request not usually reported . The attorneys had to go back into court and the judge has to make a ruling on how to proceed. They did not ask for clarification on Second degree. Its simply common sense. They are looking closely at that. Mind you doesn't at all mean they are going to convict on it.
                Doesn't matter, all they asked was to explain a little better.
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                • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                  Originally Posted by yukon View Post

                  Doesn't matter, all they asked was to explain a little better.
                  ummm.......... duh. You Don't even have a point anymore. They would have no reason to ask for it if they were deliberating on second degree. Its not both but one or the other.
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                  • Profile picture of the author yukon
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                    ummm.......... duh. You Don't even have a point anymore. They would have no reason to ask for it if they were deliberating on second degree. Its not both but one or the other.
                    Ok, your guess is the only correct possibility.

                    Congratulations, now run along & go guess a Powerball number. :rolleyes:
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                    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

                      Ok, your guess is the only correct possibility.

                      Congratulations, now run along & go guess a Powerball number. :rolleyes:

                      lol....You are always silly Yuke. I never guessed at any verdict. I said they would consider it and CLEARLY by asking the judge they did. here try reading again

                      Its simply common sense. They are looking closely at that. Mind you doesn't at all mean they are going to convict on it.
                      kiddies they never read :rolleyes:
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                      • Profile picture of the author yukon
                        Banned
                        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                        lol....You are always silly Yuke. I never guessed at any verdict. I said they would consider it and CLEARLY by asking the judge they did. here try reading again
                        You thought you knew what the jury was doing & you didn't, none of us knew.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                          Originally Posted by yukon View Post

                          You thought you knew what the jury was doing & you didn't, none of us knew.
                          Dude you are too stupid and lying like you usually do over on the SEO forum. Anyone can read what I said and I even quoted my statements that POINT BLANK STATED The verdict could go either way. NO one can ever predict and no one tried to predict where a jury would go just what would be considered and was considered.

                          Whats so funny is that the same people who cry and whine about cases like OJ simpson where he got off are the same ones throwing a party over this without the slightest decorum to realize that someone died and there are no winners.
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                          • Profile picture of the author yukon
                            Banned
                            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                            Dude you are too stupid and lying like you usually do over on the SEO forum. Anyone can read what I said and I even quoted my statements that POINT BLANK STATED The verdict could go either way. NO one can ever predict and no one tried to predict where a jury would go just what would be considered and was considered.

                            Whats so funny is that the same people who cry and whine about cases like OJ simpson where he got off are the same ones throwing a party over this without the slightest decorum to realize that someone died and there are no winners.
                            Wow, even after the verdict you still don't man up when your wrong.

                            You guessed, you was wrong, simple as that.




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                          • Profile picture of the author KimW
                            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                            Dude you are too stupid and lying like you usually do over on the SEO forum. Anyone can read what I said and I even quoted my statements that POINT BLANK STATED The verdict could go either way. NO one can ever predict and no one tried to predict where a jury would go just what would be considered and was considered.

                            Whats so funny is that the same people who cry and whine about cases like OJ simpson where he got off are the same ones throwing a party over this without the slightest decorum to realize that someone died and there are no winners.
                            Can you make one post or response without insulting someone or accusing them of something?

                            He isn't lying. I saw the same post he did,
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                            • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                              Originally Posted by KimW View Post

                              Can you make one post or response without insulting someone or accusing them of something?

                              He isn't lying. I saw the same post he did,
                              Then you are both lying. Nowhere did I ever say ANYWHERE that I knew or even guessed how the jury was going to rule. GO ahead put up the quote. Sheesh people just because you are on a forum doesn't mean you can't have some personal intellectual honesty.
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                              • Profile picture of the author KimW
                                Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                                Then you are both lying. Nowhere did I ever say ANYWHERE that I knew or even guessed how the jury was going to rule. GO ahead put up the quote. Sheesh people just because you are on a forum doesn't mean you can't have some personal intellectual honesty.

                                And you did some creative editing.
                                As far as personal intellectual honesty?
                                My years on this forum speak for themselves.

                                As far as the answer to the question I have asked you several times, it seems the answer is no.
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                                • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                                  Originally Posted by KimW View Post

                                  And you did some creative editing.
                                  As far as personal intellectual honesty?
                                  My years on this forum speak for themselves.
                                  You could be here for two decades I wouldn't give a rip. You are straight up bared face lying on me and I will defend myself against it. I neither said any such thing nor did i "creatively edit" my posts after the fact. No one including me at any time in this thread EVER made a prediction of how the jury would rule. I'm still waiting on the quote where I said any such thing. Stop with the sleazy dishonest charge of me creative editing anything and put it up. Stop trying to hide behind "your years here" and pony up a drop of some integrity. Put the post up or show where I edited it after the fact.


                                  As far as the answer to the question I have asked you several times, it seems the answer is no.
                                  You can try to spin your lying around all you want as long as you lie about something I never said then I will call you on it. The only thing I said was that they would CONSIDER manslaughter which they clearly did. No one ever said they would RULE that way.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    JUSTICE HAS BEEN DONE, as much as is possible! NOT GUILTY!

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
      I respect the decision although I think it sets a bad precedence. I am glad there was at least a trial also though. Now comes the civil law suit I am sure.
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      • Profile picture of the author KimW
        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

        I respect the decision although I think it sets a bad precedence. I am glad there was a trial also though. Now comes the civil law suit I am sure.
        How does it set a bad precedence?
        This is what our justice system is based on.
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        • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
          I don't like the idea of neighborhood watch persons carrying around concealed weapons, profiling innocent citizens, following them around, getting into physical confrontations, shooting people, then getting off by claiming self defense. Maybe it's just me.

          Originally Posted by KimW View Post

          How does it set a bad precedence?
          This is what our justice system is based on.
          And I would be saying this if the verdict have been guilty.
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          • Profile picture of the author KimW
            Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

            I don't like the idea of neighborhood watch persons carrying around concealed weapons, profiling innocent citizens, following them around, getting into physical confrontations, shooting people, then getting off by claiming self defense. Maybe it's just me.
            I don't think anyone does Tim.
            But that wasn't the case.

            What the case was none of us will ever know,but this went through the justice system.
            If he had been found guilty,you would have been pleased as punch,but since he was found not guilty you think it is bad precedence?

            Nowhere in either this thread or the previous one did I give my opinion on whether I felt he was guilty or innocent all I said was I hope he gets a fair trial.

            I believe he did.
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            • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
              Well, this case creates the precedence for similar type events happening in the future.
              Originally Posted by KimW View Post

              I don't think anyone does Tim.
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              • Profile picture of the author yukon
                Banned
                Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                Well, this case creates the precedence for similar things happening in the future.
                Maybe, but they won't have the same jury making the same guess/decision.
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              • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
                Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                Well, this case creates the precedence for similar type events happening in the future.
                What "events" is that, Tim?

                Someone shooting a wanna-be thug as they are slamming their head into the pavement?

                In that case, I can only hope you are right.

                If someone slams my head in to the concrete, you better believe I'm not waiting until the 3rd, or even 2nd, "SLAM" to fire.
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                • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                  No. Vigilantes who feel they can get away with killing people and then just claiming self defense when they only have minor injuries.
                  Originally Posted by Whos That Guru View Post

                  What "events" is that, Tim?

                  Someone shooting a wanna-be thug as they are slamming their head into the pavement?

                  In that case, I can only hope you are right.

                  If someone slams my head in to the concrete, you better believe I'm not waiting until the 3rd, or even 2nd, "SLAM" to fire.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
                    Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                    No. Vigilantes who feel they can get away with killing people and then just claiming self defense when they only have minor injuries.
                    Well GEE, I can only hope that if your head is ever being repeatedly BASHED IN TO CONCRETE, that you only view that as a "minor injury"

                    After all, what doesn't kill you can only make you stronger!

                    Right??

                    Get real.
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                    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                      You don't really believe everything Zimmerman said do you? It's clear he lied and I'm sure when they talk to the jurors they will say so, but they likely just felt there was some doubt , saw some evidence of injuries on GZ and felt they had to acquit.
                      Originally Posted by Whos That Guru View Post

                      Well GEE, I can only hope that if your head is ever being repeatedly BASHED IN TO CONCRETE, that you only view that as a "minor injury"

                      After all, what doesn't kill you can only make you stronger!

                      Right??

                      Get real.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
                        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                        You don't really believe everything Zimmerman said do you? It's clear he lied and I'm sure when they talk to the jurors they will say so, but they likely just felt there was some doubt , saw some evidence of injuries on GZ and felt they had to acquit.
                        ^^ This guy obviously didn't watch every moment of the trial, and/or see all of the "evidence" that the jury was NOT allowed to see.

                        Even the PROSECUTION WITNESSES backed up Z's story time & time again.

                        Dude... when the LEAD INVESTIGATOR of the case says (ON THE RECORD, might I add) that HE BELIEVES THE DEFENSE'S STORY / VERSION OF EVENTS...

                        You KNOW that this trial never should have happened in the first place.

                        This was 100% political AND racial.

                        Hence the reason why NO charges were filed until oBummer decided to stick his nose in to it with his "If I had a son" remark --- along with Jackson, Sharpton, Black Panthers, etc...

                        NEXT.
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                        • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                          The lead investigator also recommended manslaughter charges be brought. He said GZ was following TM. He said TM was a good kid who had the right to defend himself.
                          Originally Posted by Whos That Guru View Post


                          Dude... when the LEAD INVESTIGATOR of the case says (ON THE RECORD, might I add) that HE BELIEVES THE DEFENSE'S STORY / VERSION OF EVENTS...

                          You KNOW that this trial never should have happened in the first place.

                          This was 100% political AND racial.

                          NEXT.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
                            Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                            The lead investigator also recommended manslaughter charges be brought. He said GZ was following TM. He said TM was a good kid who had the right to defend himself.
                            LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                            "He was such a good kid, he had only been suspended from school for violence, he ONLY fought with a bus driver, he ONLY did drugs, he ONLY threatened his own friends with his mother's firearm via text message!

                            BUT he was JUST ABOUT to turn his life around!"

                            ahahahahahaha

                            You are clearly one of the people who bought in to the BIAS of this case via the LAME STREAM MEDIA.

                            BUT HEY!! I guess the ONLY reason why GZ was found not guilty -- that couldn't POSSIBLY be because of the FACTS! Of course not!

                            Instead, it MUST be because the media wasn't able to find a photo of Tray Tray as an embryo! They could only find and publish one of him as a 12 year old!

                            ROFL

                            PS - following someone - ESPECIALLY when you are the captain of the neighborhood watch, when there have been several break-ins in your GATED community - is NOT a crime!

                            Hope this clears things up for ya!

                            NEXT!
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                            • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                              He wasn't suspended from school because of violence and didn't fight or attack a bus driver. That's just BS. Whatever dude. You think he was thug for no good reason and are happy he is dead apparently. Good for you. Keep your guns loaded and lock all your doors tonight you paranoid right wing gun loving goober. lol How does it feel to be so scared all the time?

                              Originally Posted by Whos That Guru View Post

                              LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                              "He was such a good kid, he had only been suspended from school for violence, he ONLY fought with a bus driver, he ONLY did drugs, he ONLY threatened his own friends with his mother's firearm via text message!

                              BUT he was JUST ABOUT to turn his life around!"

                              ahahahahahaha

                              You are clearly one of the people who bought in to the BIAS of this case via the LAME STREAM MEDIA.

                              BUT HEY!! I guess the ONLY reason why GZ was found not guilty, that couldn't be because of the FACTS!

                              Instead, it MUST be because the media wasn't able to find a photo of Tray Tray as an embryo! They could only find and publish one of him as a 12 year old!

                              ROFL

                              PS - following someone - ESPECIALLY when you are the captain of the neighborhood watch - is NOT a crime!

                              Hope this clears things up for ya!

                              NEXT!
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                              • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
                                Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                                He wasn't suspended from school because of violence and didn't fight or attack a bus driver. That's just BS. Whatever dude. You think he was thug for no good reason and are happy he is dead apparently. Good for you. Keep your guns loaded and lock all your doors tonight you paranoid right wing gun loving goober. lol
                                I might have THOSE things mixed up (the reasons WHY he was suspended) -- but the fact remains that he WAS suspended from school.

                                He DID assault a bus driver (google it)

                                He DID do drugs (google it)

                                He DID threaten to shoot one of his friends with his mother's .380 via text message -- all because the friend accused him of "not being gangster enough" (again, GOOGLE IT!!!!)

                                I am not happy that someone was killed. Not one bit.

                                However, I AM happy that the jurors were able to see through the CLEAR bias and produce a true and correct verdict.

                                And yes, I WILL continue to keep my guns loaded and my doors locked.

                                I will also continue to make sure that they are cleaned and in prime condition.

                                However, doing so does not make me a "gun loving goober" at all.

                                It makes me and my family safe.

                                Nothing more.

                                If all gun owners were as "vicious" as you claim, I would not be here typing right now. I would be awaiting a trial of my own.

                                The fact that I have carried for a VERY long time, in and out of public, without EVER having anything happen, just shows that you once again, have NO idea what the hell you are talking about.

                                Stay safe my friend.
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                                • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                                  You do get things mixed up don't you? He didn't assault a bus driver even if a couple right wing bloggers said so. :/ He was suspended and did smoke weed. Big deal. That doesn't make him a thug or bad kid. If so, there are tens of millions of thugs out there now.

                                  Originally Posted by Whos That Guru View Post

                                  I might have THOSE things mixed up (the reasons WHY he was suspended) -- but the fact remains that he WAS suspended from school.

                                  He DID assault a bus driver (google it)

                                  He DID do drugs (google it)
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                                    Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                                    You do get things mixed up don't you? He didn't assault a bus driver even if a couple right wing bloggers said so. :/ He was suspended and did smoke weed. Big deal. That doesn't make him a thug or bad kid. If so, there are tens of millions of thugs out there now.
                                    Yeah but they are not black with pictures of gold teeth in their mouth and Sharpton didn't come to their defense to get all the haters of race baiting up in arms. Trayvon was and did so every rumour about what he did and every idle word typed on twitter is cause for him to be shot for the "punk" that they all knew he was without knowing anything about who he was. He went and got some skittles had a man follow him with a gun but they all know with only two people knowing the whole story from start to finish that the dead guy had it coming and the alive guy told the whole truth and nothing but.

                                    How do they know this with such total certainty? Preconceived notions

                                    Zimmerman might have never had a racist thought in his head but one thing is for sure race has played a HUGE part in the arguments surrounding it on both sides
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                                • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                                  Originally Posted by Whos That Guru View Post

                                  I am not happy that someone was killed. Not one bit.

                                  .
                                  Sure you are. You are LOLing and laughing all over the board and listing out text messages, suspensions and claims of knowing how everything went down like the kid had it coming to be shot in the heart. A kid is dead and to you its like a party.
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                            • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                              Originally Posted by Whos That Guru View Post

                              LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                              "He was such a good kid, he had only been suspended from school for violence, he ONLY fought with a bus driver, he ONLY did drugs, he ONLY threatened his own friends with his mother's firearm via text message!

                              BUT he was JUST ABOUT to turn his life around!"

                              ahahahahahaha
                              Wow....You are a beautiful human being yourself aren't you? laughing and hooping it up over a kid being dead who started out the night doing nothing but buying skittles and a drink before being followed by a man with a gun.
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                      • Profile picture of the author HeySal
                        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                        You don't really believe everything Zimmerman said do you? It's clear he lied and I'm sure when they talk to the jurors they will say so, but they likely just felt there was some doubt , saw some evidence of injuries on GZ and felt they had to acquit.
                        Yeah, well there's still some bits of our bill of rights active here and again. When someone has you on the ground slamming your head into pavement - you are allowed to defend yourself. Since a whole jury decided innocence - that is what we have to call it no matter what YOU think.

                        Cause ya know what happens when people riot because they want someone convicted when a jury said not guilty? You get lynchings. And I believe we decided over 150 years ago that it wasn't right to lynch people without trial. With all the blacks that try to hold so many whites accountable for what people did to them that died before we were even born, I'm surprised that anyone of color would fall for rioting over this case. After all - it's not as if nobody black has ever killed someone white -- and this whole situation was blown up on racial BS. YOUR tax dollars have even been used for inciting rioting over this trial.

                        The jury has decided and you and anyone who wants to is free to pout about it, but it won't be intelligent people of any color who riot over it. Can you even imagine the courage it took to declare this man innocent if you actually think he is in light of the threats being made? I think that jury deserves a major amount of respect for adhering to what they thought was right under that amount of threat and pressure.

                        Did Zimmerman kill him? Yes he did.
                        Is self defense allowed in our country? Yes it is.
                        If you, for any reason, jump someone and slam their head into the pavement repeatedly, should you expect that person might fight back with any resource available to them? Yes, you may.

                        What's the problem?

                        I give odds 50 to 1 that if Travyon had been white, you'd not even been interested in the trial. And you call other people bigots. Shame on you. I also bet hat Travyon killed Zimmerman while bashing his brains in, there'd have been little press on the event in the first place. Sooner or later you might just realize what a trumped up circus this was.

                        Here's a question for you...........what was done in Congress while people had their attention on this?
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                    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                      Originally Posted by Whos That Guru View Post

                      Well GEE, I can only hope that if your head is ever being repeatedly BASHED IN TO CONCRETE, that you only view that as a "minor injury"

                      After all, what doesn't kill you can only make you stronger!

                      Right??

                      Get real.
                      You need to get real and understand how the legal system works. No one proved that the kid bashed anybody's head into concrete repeatedly. We only have one persons word for that. When a a jury declares a person not guilty it by no means indicates they knew what happened. You get cleared because they have to be certain beyond a reasonable doubt.

                      Not guilty says nothing more than the juror could not determine guilt without a reasonable doubt. They could all think he was guilty but still have to rule he is not guilty
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                    • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
                      Nowhere did I ever say ANYWHERE that I knew or even guessed how the jury was going to rule.
                      LOL -- I DID!!

                      And I posted it SEVERAL times!

                      You can easily go find a quote (or many quotes!) to back this up.

                      Want to know why I was able to predict the outcome?

                      Because unlike some people posting, I actually DID follow the trial and the evidence (or lack there-of) from the very beginning.
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                  • Profile picture of the author KimW
                    Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                    No. Vigilantes who feel they can get away with killing people and then just claiming self defense when they only have minor injuries.
                    The jury that saw all the evidence made the decision that he was not guilty.
                    It is obvious that they don't feel the event went down the way you do.
                    Yet they had far more access to the evidence and information than you and I ever will.
                    Like it or not, it went through the system and a verdict was spit out.
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                    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                      Like I said, I respect the verdict but don't like the precedence it creates.
                      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

                      The jury that saw all the evidence made the decision that he was not guilty.
                      It is obvious that they don't feel the event went down the way you do.
                      Yet they had far more access to the evidence and information than you and I ever will.
                      Like it or not, it went through the system and a verdict was spit out.
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                      • Profile picture of the author KimW
                        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                        Like I said, I respect the verdict but don't like the precedence it creates.
                        And I am just saying I don't think it is setting a precedence.
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      • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

        I respect the decision although I think it sets a bad precedence. I am glad there was at least a trial also though. Now comes the civil law suit I am sure.
        Of course.. this is far from over, mark my words.

        However, my verdict-prediction record is now 3/3.

        As with the last 2 trials I followed from start to finish, I called this verdict long before even the jury knew what they would decide.

        I am just glad they made the right call.

        Now my question is, are they going to return the firearm and ammunition to Z?

        I would be demanding that they do if I were him. He's probably going to need that after this.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

        I respect the decision although I think it sets a bad precedence. I am glad there was at least a trial also though. Now comes the civil law suit I am sure.
        Horrible precedent but I can see with the Jurors as reasonable doubt is always a beast to overcome when the only other witness to how the WHOLE thing went down is the dead person.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
    If Zimmerman Get Off, Ima Go Kill a White Boy’: Trayvon Martin Supporters Make Shocking Threats Ahead of Verdict | TheBlaze.com
    Seriously. You can't be so stupid as to go off twitter talk can you? Should I now link to a white supremacist site that incites to kill black people?
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    • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
      Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

      Seriously. You can't be so stupid as to go off twitter talk can you? Should I now link to a white supremacist site that incites to kill black people?
      You are so involved in trying to be "politically correct" that you simply REFUSE to see the facts here.

      I can only pray that you are not one of their "white victims" due to this verdict, because unfortunately, there will probably be several.

      When THE POLICE THEMSELVES are BEGGING people not to riot and cause harm over a verdict, you KNOW there is a problem.

      Wake the **** up dude.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        Originally Posted by Whos That Guru View Post

        You are so involved in trying to be "politically correct" that you simply REFUSE to see the facts here.

        I can only pray that you are not one of their "white victims" due to this verdict, because unfortunately, there will probably be several.
        Sorry you are being silly. Because I don't think everyone should be packing guns walking around anticipating they are going to be attacked I am refusing to see facts? Yes I recall your conversation with my boy Nest and where you live you should considering what goes on there but thats why I asked you if you live in Orlando? Coming on a board where people live all over the country and telling them all to pack is just nitwit silly. I live in Orlando where this is going down and I am as concerned about riots as I am about people anticipating them to break out in various places. It gets people edgy and edgy people with guns are a DEFINITE hazard.

        and before it goes on too far in your assumptions I have never once represented myself as a white male anywhere on this forum.
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        • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
          Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

          Sorry you are being silly. Because I don't think everyone should be packing guns walking around anticipating they are going to be attacked I am refusing to see facts? Yes I recall your conversation with my boy Nest and where you live you should considering what goes on there but thats why I asked you if you live in Orlando? Coming on a board where people live all over the country and telling them all to pack is just nitwit silly. I live in Orlando where this is going down and I am as concerned about riots as I am about people anticipating them to break out in various places. It gets people edgy and edgy people with guns are a DEFINITE hazard.

          and before it goes on too far in your assumptions I have never once represented myself as a white male anywhere on this forum.
          There has been ZERO evidence (or even speculation) showing that Z was "edgy"

          So.. your point is?

          BTW, I have NEVER said that "everyone" should be "packing"

          I HAVE, however, said that everyone who is legally allowed to, SHOULD.

          Do you think those people who went to see BatMan thought they would be in the fight of their lives? NOPE.

          The simple fact is that you NEVER KNOW when something is going to happen.

          A clerk at a local gas station, less than 1 mile from where I live, was working one night.

          Someone came in & asked to borrow 10 dollars from her.

          When she refused, the man went outside, picked up a BRICK (not a rock - an ACTUAL BRICK) and then beat her repeatedly in the face with it, before speeding away.

          Do you think SHE thought something was going to happen when she reported for work that night?

          NOPE.

          As I said. YOU NEVER KNOW what is going to happen.

          All we can do is make sure we are 100% prepared at ALL TIMES.
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
    Who GIVES A SHIT about the reason he was suspended???

    I LOVE how you failed to acknowledge the rest of my post -- mainly this part:

    He DID threaten to shoot one of his friends with his mother's .380 via text message -- all because the friend accused him of "not being gangster enough" (again, GOOGLE IT!!!!)
    You gonna tell me THAT isn't a wanna-be thug?

    Please, do try.

    The fact of the matter is this:

    TM was NOT some "little kid" as the media would have you believe.

    He was a thug-in-the-making. Plain and simple.

    PS - if you still refuse to find some of the photo's I'm talking about, by all means, just let me know.

    I'll do your research FOR YOU and embed them here.

    TM was NOT some "innocent kid" by a long shot.

    But hey, I guess since the jury wasn't allowed to see it, you can't be bothered to find it yourself.

    After all, "he was JUST ABOUT to turn his life around!"

    ha.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    It is INCREDIBLE! The case was considered a NON ISSUE! The media FALSIFIED evidence! The witnesses FOR THE PROSECUTION BUILT the defense case! The prosecution LIED! Their STAR WITNESS LIED, and STILL managed to make it clear GZ was INNOCENT! They TWISTED TESTIMONY! They VIOLATED THE BRADY RULE! They LIED ABOUT TREVONS AGE, EVEN ON THE CLOSING REMARKS! They tried to change the rules with a RIDICULOUS "legal theory"! They built a case on FICTION! They FIRED an "expert witness" because he called attention to the brady violation! A major well known attorney said PUBLICLY that the prosecution lawyers should be DISBARRED, because of their disregard for all of the above!!!!!!!!!

    BTW for all the non americans..... It is REQUIRED in the US that ALL people representing others in a court be ADMITTED in that state to do so, and that DEMANDS that they be members of the bar, and that demands that they pass a test. DISBARRING means that NONE of that is recognized, and you are BANNED from it, which means you can't practice law anymore! Disbarment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    After ALL of that, you STILL feel the verdict was WRONG! Legally, they HAD to vote not guilty, because there was NO EVIDENCE!

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      It is INCREDIBLE! The case was considered a NON ISSUE! The media FALSIFIED evidence! The witnesses FOR THE PROSECUTION BUILT the defense case! The prosecution LIED! Their STAR WITNESS LIED, and STILL managed to make it clear GZ was INNOCENT! They TWISTED TESTIMONY! They VIOLATED THE BRADY RULE! They LIED ABOUT TREVONS AGE, EVEN ON THE CLOSING REMARKS! They tried to change the rules with a RIDICULOUS "legal theory"! They built a case on FICTION! They FIRED an "expert witness" because he called attention to the brady violation! A major well known attorney said PUBLICLY that the prosecution lawyers should be DISBARRED, because of their disregard for all of the above!!!!!!!!!

      BTW for all the non americans..... It is REQUIRED in the US that ALL people representing others in a court be ADMITTED in that state to do so, and that DEMANDS that they be members of the bar, and that demands that they pass a test. DISBARRING means that NONE of that is recognized, and you are BANNED from it, which means you can't practice law anymore! Disbarment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

      After ALL of that, you STILL feel the verdict was WRONG! Legally, they HAD to vote not guilty, because there was NO EVIDENCE!

      Steve
      Dude, Steve.. it's clear that the clause "Innocent until PROVEN guilty" means nothing to some in this forum.

      You're falling on deaf ears.. so am I, apparently.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    "Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post
    ummm.......... duh. You Don't even have a point anymore. They would have no reason to ask for it if they were deliberating on second degree. Its not both but one or the other."

    This is what I believe Yukon was talking about.
    Neither he nor I lied.

    I haven't been here quite 2 decades but am coming close.
    I don't need to lie.
    I did put it up.
    You can call me on anything you like.
    No one that I know of said you claimed they would rule manslaughter.
    As you asked someone earlier...can't you read?
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      "Quote:
      Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post
      ummm.......... duh. You Don't even have a point anymore. They would have no reason to ask for it if they were deliberating on second degree. Its not both but one or the other."

      This is what I believe Yukon was talking about.
      Neither he nor I lied. I did put it up.
      You put nothing of the sort up but finally decided to back off your LIE that I creatively edited

      You have only PROVED your lie. That quote above says nothing Yukon claimed. Even by your quote you prove that he LIED and you joined him in that POINT BLANK LIE. Its says they DELIBERATED not whether they would rule that it was manslaughter. Never anywhere did I ever claim to know what the jury was going to do or how I knew how they would rule.

      and yeah I can read quite fine. Yukon claimed I guessed wrong indicating I had guessed how the jury would rule and then he came back and claimed that I thought I knew how they would rule. I'll give you the chance to go look it up and see if you can muster the integrity to admit you were wrong in joining him on that.

      I called you on nothing but what you did. Its plain and simple a lie and your quote above proves it..
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      • Profile picture of the author KimW
        Originally Posted by yukon View Post

        Ok, your guess is the only correct possibility.

        Congratulations, now run along & go guess a Powerball number. :rolleyes:
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        You put nothing of the sort up but finally decided to back off your LIE that I creatively edited

        You have only PROVED your lie. That quote above says nothing Yukon claimed. Even by your quote you prove that he LIED and you joined him in that POINT BLANK LIE. Its says they DELIBERATED not whether they would rule that it was manslaughter. Never anywhere did I ever claim to know what the jury was going to do or how I knew how they would rule.

        and yeah I can read quite fine. Yukon claimed I guessed wrong indicating I had guessed how the jury would rule and then he came back and claimed that I thought I knew how they would rule. I'll give you the chance to go look it up and see if you can muster the integrity to admit you were wrong in joining him on that.

        I called you on nothing but what you did. Its plain and simple a lie and your quote above proves it..
        You really are living in a fantasy world aren't you?
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
    HERE YA GO!

    Keep in mind, this is just SOME of what came out that the jury was NOT allowed to see.

    Zimmerman Defense Releases Trayvon Martin Photos, Texts « CBS Miami

    There are SEVERAL more things that are NOT included in this list.

    That SURE looks like he was "turning his life around" to me, doesn't it!?

    Stealing your mother's gun, growing your own drugs, giving the finger to the camera..

    Ah yes, such a SWEET young child!

    HA...

    Again, GIVE ME A BREAK.
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    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
      Big deal. Irrelevant. I'm out of here. You can go hide and celebrate all you want.

      Originally Posted by Whos That Guru View Post

      HERE YA GO!

      Keep in mind, this is just SOME of what came out that the jury was NOT allowed to see.

      Zimmerman Defense Releases Trayvon Martin Photos, Texts « CBS Miami

      There are SEVERAL more things that are NOT included in this list.

      That SURE looks like he was "turning his life around" to me, doesn't it!?

      Stealing your mother's gun, growing your own drugs, giving the finger to the camera..

      Ah yes, such a SWEET young child!

      HA...

      Again, GIVE ME A BREAK.
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      • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
        I'm thinking a padlock is going to show on this thread pretty soon, if it doesn't just go 'poof'.
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        Gun control means never having to say, "I missed you."

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        • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
          Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

          I'm thinking a padlock is going to show on this thread pretty soon, if it doesn't just go 'poof'.
          Na, I doubt it.

          Or at least not yet.

          I admit, I personally am getting a little worked up over some of these NONSENSE posts being made by some people in here, but it's clear that we are all trying to keep things as civil as possible, regardless of our beliefs of what happened.
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          • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
            Originally Posted by Whos That Guru View Post

            Na, I doubt it.

            Or at least not yet.

            I admit, I personally am getting a little worked up over some of these NONSENSE posts being made by some people in here, but it's clear that we are all trying to keep things as civil as possible, regardless of our beliefs of what happened.
            Well, most, anyway
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        • Profile picture of the author KimW
          Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

          I'm thinking a padlock is going to show on this thread pretty soon, if it doesn't just go 'poof'.
          Probably so.
          I did much better at staying out of this one though. Managed not to get sucked in til the last few pages.
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          • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
            Originally Posted by KimW View Post

            Probably so.
            I did much better at staying out of this one though. Managed not to get sucked in til the last few pages.
            Me too!
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

        Big deal. Irrelevant. I'm out of here. You can go hide and celebrate all you want.
        I hear you Tim. Might as well step aside and make them put on their party hats
        and blow on the party favors.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      ....and none of that matters now, does it?

      Something that the prosecution didn't mention until the end really, is if the gun wasn't already out when they were on the ground, how in the world did Trayvon see it and grab for it?
      That's the problem when people become emotionally involved in a case like this one. That was mentioned - it was clearly described in several pieces of evidence including Zimmerman's police interview and the TV interview that was shown during the trial. As he fell his jacket fell open and gun was revealed - that was the testimony.

      It's over - the jury has decided on a verdict based on what THEY heard in the trial.

      Anyone still upset can tune into MSNBC tonight and listen to Sharpton threatening civil lawsuits and declaring he's "on the justice department to get the feds to file racial discrimination charges against Zimmerman". If you want to see someone with no respect for how our justice system works - Sharpton is a shining example.

      People I admired tonight were Martin's parents who were upset but accepting of the verdict - and Zimmerman's brother who was interviewed by Piers Morgan. Morgan several times tried to say "your family is celebrating" and the brother wouldn't have it. He said there is no celebrating as there is no winner in this incident and again expressed his sympathy to the Martin family and said his family is praying for them.

      The principals in this case are behaving with dignity and consideration - maybe others should follow their example.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by Whos That Guru View Post

      That SURE looks like he was "turning his life around" to me, doesn't it!?

      Stealing your mother's gun, growing your own drugs, giving the finger to the camera..

      Ah yes, such a SWEET young child!

      HA...

      Again, GIVE ME A BREAK.
      LOl Give me a Break. If your kid gives a finger to someone while on some weed and theres a picture then we can all give thumbs up or thumbs down on whether they deserve to live. Its so easy to be detached and make people into monsters when they don't look like us or our kids. No one ever said sweet kid - but kid - yep under 18. I've known many people to have been with problems that turned their life around. He will never get the chance

      Fact forever undeniable . Zimmerman tracked this kid when he was doing nothing wrong , followed him with a gun on his side pocket after being told not to and ended up killing him. No one knows what happened after the tracking. Who pushed who first. Who went for his gun at what time. You can pretend to know but in fact the jury never claims to know and its most likely that he walked precisely because they were not sure themselves. He got off on reasonable doubt as he should if they felt there was. Thats it. No proof that what he said was accurate and no proof that Trayvon was a punk that got what was coming to him. Reasonable doubt.

      but please continue to pretend to know all kinds of things that you don't just don't expect everyone to believe that you know what happened or that this lol hahaha related to a case where a kid died is anything sweet in and of itself.
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      • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        LOl Give me a Break. If your kid gives a finger to someone while on some weed and theres a picture then we can all give thumbs up or thumbs down on whether they deserve to live. Its so easy to be detached and make people into monsters when they don't look like us or our kids. No one ever said sweet kid - but kid - yep under 18. I've known many people to have been with problems that turned their life around. He will never get the chance

        Fact forever undeniable . Zimmerman tracked this kid when he was doing nothing wrong , followed him with a gun on his side pocket after being told not to and ended up killing him. No one knows what happened after the tracking. Who pushed who first. Who went for his gun at what time. You can pretend to know but in fact the jury never claims to know and its most likely that he walked precisely because they were not sure themselves. He got off on reasonable doubt as he should if they felt there was. Thats it. No proof that what he said was accurate and no proof that Trayvon was a punk that got what was coming to him. Reasonable doubt.

        but please continue to pretend to know all kinds of things that you don't just don't expect everyone to believe that you know what happened or that this lol hahaha related to a case where a kid died is anything sweet in and of itself.
        Oh look! Yet another moronic post that just overlooks every other part of my post, and decides to only reply to a single part of what I said.

        Giving the finger? NO.

        Threatening people with your mother's gun? YES.

        Bashing someone in to the concrete? YES.

        KID?

        HA!! I don't ******* think so.

        Where I'm from, at 17 you are a LEGAL ADULT.

        Meaning YOU CAN BE CHARGED AS AN ADULT.

        1 MEASLY YEAR DIFFERENCE DOES NOT MEAN HE WAS A CHILD.

        He was a YOUNG ADULT.

        Keyword here, being ADULT.


        Get a grip dude.

        I'm done with this thread (and the internet all together) for tonight.

        My wife and I have food to make, movies to watch, A NOT GUILTY VERDICT TO CELEBRATE! LOL

        Again, I hope everyone has a great, gun carryin' day, and stays safe out there.

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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
    Of course!

    When approached with the FACTS, all of a sudden you "dont care" and you're "out of here"

    "BIG DEAL" that Trayvon had guns, drugs, GREW drugs, THREATENED his own "friends" for not believing he was "gansta enuff" and so on!

    BIG DEAL! Right!?

    He was clearly a young, innocent boy who was "just about to turn his life around!"

    LMFAO. You are a complete joke.

    If you think those things are "irrelevant" in any way, I seriously hope you are not a registered voter.

    The ignorance in that post of yours is off the charts.

    But since you're "out of here" now that you have absolutely NO WAY to try and rebut what I posted -- good riddance.

    The texts and photos don't lie.

    The injuries to GZ don't lie.

    The FACT that 'lil thug wanna-be had NO injuries other than the gunshot wound DOES NOT LIE.

    But whatever.. as someone on here once said, never try to argue with ignorance, because they will just bring you to their level and beat you with experience.

    They must have had your post habits in mind when they said that, judging from these most recent BS claims of yours.

    Later.

    PS -- FREE GZ! (oh wait, they already did because the FACTS proved it was self defense!)
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  • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
    All this pontification about 'profiling' just kills me. Geez, are you people just stupid?

    You think you aren't 'profiled' every time a policeman in a cruiser looks you over?

    Fitting a profile doesn't mean a person is guilty of anything, obviously - just as NOT fitting a profile doesn't mean a person hasn't done something against the law.

    Profiling is about likelihood - nothing more, and it's based on experience and history.

    No matter how much 'progressive' people want to deny the obvious, race/ethnicity is a part of the mental profile that everyone creates when they look at someone else. Your mind takes in all of your past experiences, your present situation, the circumstances, even the time of day - and makes an evaluation of whether you should be concerned or not.

    Who's more likely to be a terrorist - an 80 year-old grandmother, or a mid-20s middle-eastern man?

    A young black kid walking in neighborhood plagued by breakins, late at night, in the rain, with a hood over their head, raises suspicion. You can deny it all you want, but it does, and it should. Not just because he's black. Not just because he's a kid. Not just because he has a hoodie. Not just because it's late at night. Because of ALL of it.

    People can like it or not, cry foul all they want, but the simple fact is that there are some profiles that mesh with certain types of crime in certain areas, and ethnicity is a part of that profile.

    I mean, really. Pull your head out. If you were in the deep south in the 50s and tasked with finding out just who was under the white robes and hoods of the people who just attacked a black family, would you REALLY be politically correct and question all of the middle-aged men, black and white, in the area? If you did, you'd be an idiot.
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    • Profile picture of the author KimW
      Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

      All this pontification about 'profiling' just kills me. Geez, are you people just stupid?

      You think you aren't 'profiled' every time a policeman in a cruiser looks you over?

      Fitting a profile doesn't mean a person is guilty of anything, obviously - just as NOT fitting a profile doesn't mean a person hasn't done something against the law.

      Profiling is about likelihood - nothing more, and it's based on experience and history.

      No matter how much 'progressive' people want to deny the obvious, race/ethnicity is a part of the mental profile that everyone creates when they look at someone else. Your mind takes in all of your past experiences, your present situation, the circumstances, even the time of day - and makes an evaluation of whether you should be concerned or not.

      Who's more likely to be a terrorist - an 80 year-old grandmother, or a mid-20s middle-eastern man?

      A young black kid walking in neighborhood plagued by breakins, late at night, in the rain, with a hood over their head, raises suspicion. You can deny it all you want, but it does, and it should. Not just because he's black. Not just because he's a kid. Not just because he has a hoodie. Not just because it's late at night. Because of ALL of it.

      People can like it or not, cry foul all they want, but the simple fact is that there are some profiles that mesh with certain types of crime in certain areas, and ethnicity is a part of that profile.

      I mean, really. Pull your head out. If you were in the deep south in the 50s and tasked with finding out just who was under the white robes and hoods of the people who just attacked a black family, would you REALLY be politically correct and question all of the middle-aged men, black and white, in the area? If you did, you'd be an idiot.
      Exactly Steve, we ALL get profiled.
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    • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
      Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

      All this pontification about 'profiling' just kills me. Geez, are you people just stupid?

      You think you aren't 'profiled' every time a policeman in a cruiser looks you over?

      Fitting a profile doesn't mean a person is guilty of anything, obviously - just as NOT fitting a profile doesn't mean a person hasn't done something against the law.

      Profiling is about likelihood - nothing more, and it's based on experience and history.

      No matter how much 'progressive' people want to deny the obvious, race/ethnicity is a part of the mental profile that everyone creates when they look at someone else. Your mind takes in all of your past experiences, your present situation, the circumstances, even the time of day - and makes an evaluation of whether you should be concerned or not.

      Who's more likely to be a terrorist - an 80 year-old grandmother, or a mid-20s middle-eastern man?

      A young black kid walking in neighborhood plagued by breakins, late at night, in the rain, with a hood over their head, raises suspicion. You can deny it all you want, but it does, and it should. Not just because he's black. Not just because he's a kid. Not just because he has a hoodie. Not just because it's late at night. Because of ALL of it.

      People can like it or not, cry foul all they want, but the simple fact is that there are some profiles that mesh with certain types of crime in certain areas, and ethnicity is a part of that profile.

      I mean, really. Pull your head out. If you were in the deep south in the 50s and tasked with finding out just who was under the white robes and hoods of the people who just attacked a black family, would you REALLY be politically correct and question all of the middle-aged men, black and white, in the area? If you did, you'd be an idiot.
      I don't believe I've ever seen you post before, but I can already tell I will like you.

      It's hard to find people who will call it how it is these days.
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