Outrage in the UK! Lawmakers expense charges exposed!

by Star69
95 replies
  • OFF TOPIC
  • |
One UK lawmaker earns $93,100 USD per year, yet can't pay for a $15 USD bag of fertilizer out of his own pocket?!

We need this kind of accounting in the U.S. We, the public taxpayers, should have the right to know what our lawmakers are spending OUR money on!

Porn and cookies: UK lawmakers odd expenses claims



By DAVID STRINGER, Associated Press Writer David Stringer, Associated Press Writer - Fri May 8, 9:52 am ET

LONDON - Porn movies. Horse manure. A chocolate Santa Claus. Expense claims by British lawmakers to pay for an array of items were exposed by a newspaper Friday, stoking public anger over lawmaker excess amid the global recession.

Britain's Daily Telegraph published details of claims related to 13 ministers and offered examples of hundreds of other bills submitted by lawmakers to Parliamentary authorities.

The documents revealed how some lawmakers used lax regulations to accumulate hefty bills to pay for housing taxes and costs of furnishing homes, while others claimed for trivial amounts -- including a packet of ginger snaps worth about $1, two cans of cat food and an ice cube tray.

One lawmaker claimed the cost of servicing the swimming pool of his country home, while another paid for a hunter to catch moles who'd invaded his garden, according to the newspaper.

British Prime Minister Gordon Brown -- then Britain's treasury chief -- paid his brother Andrew 6,500 pounds ($9,800) for cleaning services between 2004 and 2006. Brown's office said the leader's brother had handled payments for a cleaner the two men shared.

Figures released to Parliament show that the 646 House of Commons legislators claimed 93 million pounds ($134 million) in allowances and expenses last year.

Under Parliament's rules, legislators can claim expenses for a second home and expenses incurred when staying away overnight from their main home. They can claim rent, for example, or mortgage payments and furnishings, such as drapes, carpets and electrical goods.

The price for such furnishings were colloquially known as the "John Lewis list," named after an upscale British department store chain. The list is being axed under reforms of the system currently under discussion.

Lawmakers had long refused to offer receipt by receipt breakdowns of their claims for public money, until a ruling under freedom of information laws ordered them to make the details known.

About 2 million receipts for claims by legislators will be published in July under the ruling, but the
newspaper said Friday it had obtained the material ahead of its planned release.

Members of the public complain the expenses system is too generous, isn't independently audited and follows rules drafted by the lawmakers themselves.

"There can be no greater proof of the need for urgent and wholesale reform of MPs' expenses than the fact that so many people at the top of government have been making such dubious claims," said Matthew Elliott of the lobby group the TaxPayers' Alliance.

Justice Secretary Jack Straw claimed the cost of housing taxes he'd never actually paid -- though later reimbursed authorities. In a handwritten note explaining his mistake, Straw wrote that "accountancy does not appear to be my strongest suit."

Culture Secretary Andy Burnham urged authorities to speed up an expenses payment. He told Parliament's fees office "he might be in line for a divorce" if he didn't receive the money quickly.

"The system doesn't work," Brown told the BBC. "I've said it doesn't work, it's got to be changed."

Britain's prime minister makes about 189,000 pounds a year ($285,000), while most lawmakers make about 61,000 pounds (about $93,100.) By comparison, U.S. legislators in Washington earn a base salary of $174,000.

A key concern for critics of the system is how lawmakers routinely switched the house they called their primary residence. Those changes meant they could claim second home allowances -- like the costs of furniture, decorating and repairs -- on several different properties.

Other bills show how lawmakers were prepared to claim even small amounts, including a carrier bag that cost 5p ($0.07), a chocolate Santa Claus-shaped snack priced at 59p ($0.88) and a tape measure costing 43 pence ($0.64). One particularly wealthy Tory MP charged 10 pounds ($15) for a bag of manure for his country retreat.

In March, Home Secretary Jacqui Smith acknowledged she'd claimed the costs of two pay-per-view porn movies watched by her husband. Smith said she later repaid the money.

"The rules are being stretched to the absolute limit in a way which is allowing MPs to enhance their personal income," said Alistair Graham, who was in charge of standards in Britain's Parliament until 2007.

The Telegraph declined to say whether it had paid to obtain details of the expense claims, or specify how it received the information.

Porn and cookies: UK lawmakers odd expenses claims


Living good on the taxpayer nickle while everyone else struggles to pay their bills and keep a roof over their head. Changes need to be made or it's time to clean house. Where is the accountability for their actions?

Justice Secretary Jack Straw should be charged with a crime just like anyone else would have been had they done what he did!
  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Not surprising - the list in the US is just as bad - and they make twice as much. Just wrote themselves a big pay increase last year again.

    That's what happens when Countries are owned by banks.
    Signature

    Sal
    When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
    Beyond the Path

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[769373].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Star69
    More important, WordPro? What could be more important than the wasteful spending by government officials who are paid very well for the little they do? There is absolutely no reason they could not pay for these things out of their own pockets except they choose to shove it to the taxpayer and keep everything hush-hush so we don't call for their heads, while the number of homeless practically doubles each year!

    I've had jobs where I had an expense account yet it was monitored to reduce this very type of abuse. Where is the accountability?

    If lawmakers are not held accountable for such 'minor' personal extravagances, they surely will not be as conscientious when it comes to using taxpayer funds in the best manner possible.

    But then, why should they when it's a well that will never run dry?

    Accountability and transparency in our elected official's daily operations will go a long way toward instilling confidence in the process for the working man, the one who is funding such outrageousness. After all, they work for the taxpayers and I don't think it's too much to ask that they do their damned jobs and stop contributing to the graft and corruption so prevalent in government today.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[770018].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author edem_sosu
      I think its good the politicians are facing accountability,but I believe that it should be extended to directors and chief executives of public organisations such as the National Health Service.It is rather difficult to ask a person who has been appointed by a board made up of his friends to account for his actions.All the banks which suffered as a result of the credit crisis had a board of directors to keep them in check.However, conflict of interest compromised the position of the watchmen.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[819073].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Mike Wright
        Back on topic, Alex Salmond the Scottish First Minister (aka Prime Minister), pointed out on the TV News that all these expenses and
        related issues had already been addressed and implemented by the
        Scottish Parliament.

        In fact, there is very little being rolled out and espoused by the big two
        Parties that has not been on the backburner for the last 20 years. Until
        now, these issues have not been regarded in a positive light by the two
        main Political Parties despite a number of MPs over the years who saw
        these proposed changes as desirable.

        Please excuse my cynicism therefore at the sudden volte-face by
        many politicians in the last couple of weeks. Bah Humbug!

        We live in interesting times.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[820450].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Star69
    Here's context for you: They're representatives? Then they should represent instead of abusing the public trust.

    Sure these amounts were small, trifling, as you say. I agree, but things always begin with small amounts and continue to get bigger as they get the idea that they can get away with anything, until before we know it, our officials are doling out billion dollar bailout packages to corporations, with no accountability requested in return.

    They wanted the job, do the job. They should pay for their own inconsequentials out of their own pocket and stop sticking it to the common man every time they turn around or get out.

    That's how I see it.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[772076].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Neil Morgan
      It concerns me more that they're supposed to be running one of the world's largest economies but cannot put together a simple, fair expense system, while expecting every small, medium and large company to do precisely that.

      Cheers,

      Neil
      Signature

      Easy email marketing automation without moving your lists.

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[772091].message }}
    • [DELETED]
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[772177].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Phnx
        Originally Posted by WordPro View Post

        Then change who you vote for.

        Simple solution.
        Oh WordPro you have no idea what a sick sick joke that is. You are participating in a system you simply have no comprehension of.

        Many 'ordinary' local Councillors are waking up to what's going on - read former Councillor Chris Lees communications with South Gloucestershire Council when he discovered they were actually a for profit corporation listed on Dunn & Bradstreet Former Councillor Chris Lees asks South Gloucestershire Council about it's Corporate STATUS! | www.tpuc.org

        You should know by now that the European Union pulls the strings, and after the signing of the Lisbon Treaty it's a done deal. They just haven't told us yet, and they have to get the Irish to vote again even though Irish ministers have already signed the deal. Remember the judge in the Mendez case (the Brazilian fella who the police murdered) he told the jury that they couldn't find the police guilty. This is because under EU Law we are now operating under "Corpis Juris".

        Unlike the Common Law "everyone is equal before the Law" (the Law referred to is actually Common Law) we are now under the Napoleonic Code, and Corpis Juris which states that ALL Government departments are above the Law. If they have a trial for these current coppers who are accused of killing that protester I guarantee you, nobody will be accountable. They can't be. From their Law, they are well within their rights to do what the hell they want. When it's all 'official' and no more hiding it, well the gloves will be off then (buried in the footnotes of the footnotes of the Lisbon Treaty they've brought the Death Penalty back for "rioting, civil disturbance, and war" - doesn't say whether that's merely protesting about war.

        You can read the Treaties yourself if you've a mind to, most of those who signed it haven't actually read it, they've read summaries. They are designed to be too complex and boring so few will want to wade through them all. Most of them simply have no idea what they were agreeing to - what political party would abolish themselves and their cushy incomes? That's what the morons (of course some are fully aware of the outcome) have done.

        Nation States were officially abolished on the 1st January 2009. When they are ready, they'll let us know. Until then they play games. Dr David Noakes has gathered a truckload of documents to peruse. http://eutruth.org.uk/

        FFS our dear Government have been asking soldiers returning from Afghanistan and Iraq if they would be willing to fire upon British citizens. (Judging from some of the comments by squaddies on various military forums, they don't appear to find this alarming.)

        You might want to watch former Naval Officer, (and later Director of his local Chamber Of Commerce) Brian Gerrish as he discovered the shit we are in and explains how we are under attack from within, and who the enemy is. MEP Roger Helmer chairs the meeting (1hr 56mins) http://www.cpexposed.com/archive/vid...common_purpose

        And here is former policeman Albert Burgess at the Lawful Rebellion Conference in January talking about his struggles to get them all arrested for Treason - especially those in Edward Heaths Government - (he has the incriminating docs. Albert Burgess - A case for Treason | BBC5.tv eyePlayer

        They are all crooks and traitors and they depend on us continuing to bend over so they can screw us some more. And they will do so in many ways, from the minor like these petty thefts, to the major like stealing our - and our childrens - future.

        Lawful Rebellion, Article 61 of the Magna Carta. Use it.

        www.tpuc.org
        Signature
        In all matters of opinion, our adversaries are insane. ~ Oscar Wilde (1854 - 1900)

        Easy Weight Loss
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[777349].message }}
        • [DELETED]
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[793145].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Phnx
            Originally Posted by WordPro View Post

            Well, thanks for hmmmmm whatever that mean't, as for my comprehension of facts, I'm very happy to say, it's more than you could possibly imagine.
            And yet you really think voting makes a blind bit of difference to anything? (You'd know what 'that' meant if you'd visited the links I pointed you to.)

            As I said above, on these particular issues, the sums involved are trifling, absolutely insignificant, I'm sorry but I can't fall for this whole story, I'm much more interested in far bigger issues than this.
            Aren't we all, but voting someone else in won't change a thing. I'd put good money down that Cameron will be the next puppet in line, but nothing will change. They merely give you hope of change. 'Hope' always lies somewhere off in the distance.

            The whole situation is just daft and has been completely blown out of all proportion.
            Well, in some cases it's outright fraud. Ignore the little things and it's no wonder they get away with the bigger stuff. Considering they throw little old ladies in jail if they get behind with their Council Tax or can't afford to pay their TV License, I guess the public are entitled to be a little pissed off that those who already treat them like serfs should be helping themselves to even more of the serfs money. It's taxpayers money NOT theirs and it's bad enough they give vast sums to their banking friends, but they are taking the piss now.

            There shouldn't be one rule for the Plebs and another for Them. Al Capone got brought to book via tax violations. Be ironic if these thieves get done for, not for the huge thefts - the transfer of wealth from the people to the bankers - but for the little petty thefts. Be a bit poetic and sum up their utter squalidness.

            A crook is a crook. Simple as that.
            Signature
            In all matters of opinion, our adversaries are insane. ~ Oscar Wilde (1854 - 1900)

            Easy Weight Loss
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[793173].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author John Henderson
              Originally Posted by Phnx View Post

              Well, in some cases it's outright fraud.
              Exactly, Phnx.

              I'm genuinely amazed that people are using words like "trifling" and "insignificant". Yes, in the grand scheme of the UK's national expenses, £93 million is small fry. But if you focus on the amounts, you're missing the point. The most senior officials in our country have been claiming for mortgage payments on houses that have no remaining mortgage. Under the laws that you and I have to abide by, that's called committing an act of fraud. And fraud is a criminal offence.

              Isn't that right, officer?... BBC NEWS | Politics | Police to look at MP allegations
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[794026].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author raydp
    It must be born in mind that these guys are, for the most part, doing nothing illegal. They're working within the rules. If the public are not in favour of these rules, then they will be changed.

    Anyone in business will use an accountant to ensure they get the maximum benefit from the system; so do our MPs.

    It's nice to see a balanced viewpoint from WordPro, the sums involved are chickenfeed in the scheme of things. Gordon Brown sold off most of the UK's gold reserves at an estimated loss of £5 Billion! This is rarely mentioned, no doubt it's too confusing for Joe Public, who is much more interested in the politics of envy and cheap headlines.

    Ray
    Signature

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[772126].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Star69
    I didn't vote any of the crooks in there, but I certainly do my part to try to have them replaced, hopefully with more fiscally conservative individuals.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[772346].message }}
    • [DELETED]
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[773432].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
        Originally Posted by WordPro View Post

        No offense but if you didn't vote any of them in there, which I take it means that you did not vote for anyone in the last general election, then what right do you have to criticise by not taking part in the democratic process?

        If you want any MP replaced, you have to vote mate - standing on the sidelines like an armchair critic when things don't go in your perceived favour, when you don't even vote in the first place, well, what does that say?
        He lives in AMERICA, how is going to vote for politicians in BRITAIN? Oh can we vote in Britain now?
        Signature

        siggy taking a break...

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[773553].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Star69
        Originally Posted by WordPro View Post

        No offense but if you didn't vote any of them in there, which I take it means that you did not vote for anyone in the last general election, then what right do you have to criticise by not taking part in the democratic process?

        If you want any MP replaced, you have to vote mate - standing on the sidelines like an armchair critic when things don't go in your perceived favour, when you don't even vote in the first place, well, what does that say?
        Sorry, but I believe you have that backwords:

        If you did vote, you have no room to complain...

        Just for the record, I supported Ron Paul...
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[774032].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author ConcordeWarrior
          Politicians are crooks. Whoever you vote for it's always the same.
          They promise... but they don't supply. They cheat and they lie.
          They care for only one thing: their own career and their close circle.

          The Bilderberg meeting is coming up soon in Greece.
          They are the influential people that pull the strings.
          All billionaires and in control of the world: they are called "illuminati".
          I refuse to be a part of their system.

          We get only crumbs.
          Why vote?
          I have stopped voting a long time ago.
          I refuse to be a pawn in their game!

          Only one solution: a revolution!
          Anarchy ==> only way to freedom!
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[774077].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
        Hi WordPro

        Originally Posted by WordPro View Post

        - standing on the sidelines like an armchair critic
        Now that's a good trick...




        Frank
        Signature


        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[774908].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
    We need a firing squad for these people.
    Signature

    siggy taking a break...

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[773549].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Star69
    Yes, Concord, just as old buildings must be torn down before new ones can be built, so must governments. Chaos eventually leads to order.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[774087].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author James_Harkin
    Basically, all this stuff is designed ... they want Cameron in No. 10 ... a breath of fresh air for the elite agenda ... Labour has had its day so as with 1997's election and the corruption & scandals with the Conservatives back then ... New Labour or New Conservative Masquerading With A Red Rose ... they now want to influence the outcome of the next general election in the UK and this kind of thing always sway's voters.

    Doesn't matter who gets into No. 10 ... the same people control the game.
    Signature
    "My First Joint Venture Generated Us OVER $633,451.64 PROFIT! How Would You Like Access To The TOP 1250 Internet Marketers Who Can Help You Do The Same?". PM Me About How They Can Help You Explode Your Business.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[774465].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author artwebster
    Our politicians are our representatives, the face of democracy, more of them should be rewarded for the work that they do and the extraordinary long hours of public service they perform for the people themselves to be represented.

    Which Christmas cracker did you get this out of?

    Our politicians are nothing more than line following, policy accepting, brainless pigs at the trough filled by the very people they are supposed to represent.

    The current disclosures in the UK of the excesses in expenses claims is only the tip of a very large iceberg because we are only finding out about stuff for which there are accounts - we will never know how much politicians benefit from the slush funds that spill out of every industry requiring some sort of political muscle.

    We often hear about the shennanigans of the dictators in third world countries - who taught them, I wonder - and by example I would have no doubt!
    Signature

    You might not like what I say - but I believe it.
    Build it, make money, then build some more
    Some old school smarts would help - and here's to Rob Toth for his help. Bloody good stuff, even the freebies!

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[774525].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author John M Kane
    Just confirms my opinion that "ALL" yes ALL politicians are criminals.
    It's a requirement to 'do' politics.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[775163].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Star69
    They're not 'doing' politics, they're 'doing' US!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[775315].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author derekwong28
    I just can't see why anybody should be surprised or even outraged about this. British politicians are supposed to be the lowest paid in the world. Surely they should be expected to grab as much as they can.

    Afterall, the Clintons made more than a hundred after leaving office and Obama will probably make even more. Many politicians in cabinet posts leave for plush jobs in the private sector afterwards.

    Still, this is small stuff compared to the money made by dictators and despots through corruption. Even icons of democracy such as Benezie Bhutto of Pakistan, Chan Shiu Bian of Taiwan, Kim Dae Jung of S. Korea had lots of allegations of corruption leveled against them or their family.

    Like any other profession, people are in politics to make money. You should not expect them to behave like saints. If there is any defect in the Briitish system, it is the low base salary that is the problem. Perhpas they should take a page out of tiny Singapore who pays their top ministers well over US$1M per year.


    Derek
    Signature

    Do not get between a wombat and a chocolate biscuit; you will regret it dearly!

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[775549].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Star69
    And now Iceland is considering joining the E.U.? I believe that would be a big mistake.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[777378].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author James_Harkin
    Yes, but that was already in the wings that Iceland would join Europe ... and what better way to make them join .. by Bankrupting the country.
    Signature
    "My First Joint Venture Generated Us OVER $633,451.64 PROFIT! How Would You Like Access To The TOP 1250 Internet Marketers Who Can Help You Do The Same?". PM Me About How They Can Help You Explode Your Business.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[777561].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Star69
    Touche' James!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[778082].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author raydp
    At last some common sense on this issue. BBC NEWS | Programmes | Newsnight | Stephen Fry dismisses MPs' expenses row

    I do hope that there is a backlash against the lying cheating journalists. A lot of the claims made against the MPs are bogus, but retractions are always on page 23 in small print!

    Ray
    Signature

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[781259].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author pazzer
    Shock horror people fiddle their expenses. Anyway aren't most of them paying them back now they've been outed for claiming stuff like having their moats cleaned.
    Signature

    Richard

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[782299].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author raydp
    As far as I can tell he never did have his moat cleaned! It's typical of the UK press, confusing people so they can't distinguish between the heist and the hype.

    According to my calculations, the total cost of an MP is about £2.50 a year per person. Pretty good value I'd say.

    Ray
    Signature

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[782828].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Star69
    Published in USA Today, yesterday, 5/13/09, page 8A:

    "British Lawmakers' expenses under fire.

    "Britain's primary opposition leader banned members of his party from filing expense claims for food and household items amid public outrage for reimbursements on items such as swimming pool construction and tennis court upkeep.

    "Conservative David Cameron said his party's lawmakers would reimburse expenses, such as chandeliers, sleigh beds and manure, though they were technically allowed under the complicated system for claiming household costs. Details were published in Britain's Daily Telegraph. The ruling Labor Party members have also claimed cat food, eyeliner and cookies. Prime Minister Gordon Brown has pledged to reform the system."



    Printed in The Daily Telegraph, today, 5/14/09:

    Elliot Morley suspended from Labour Party over MPs' expenses

    See complete article here:
    Elliot Morley suspended from Labour party over MPs' expenses - Telegraph



    Next article in today's Daily Telegraph:

    Andrew Mackay resigns over 'unacceptable' claims: MPs' expenses

    Read full article here:
    Andrew MacKay resigns over 'unacceptable' claims: MPs' expenses - Telegraph

    It appears the commoner has been fed up with these rascals abusing their positions and are finally making their voices heard.

    WHY CAN'T WE DO THIS IN THE U.S.????? If none hold them accountable for the small things, none will hold them accountable for the big things, and they will continue to get away with it.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[783329].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author BenWainwright
    I don't think its too useful to runing a business, to be focusing on "how lawmakers are ripping us off". I mean its a bad thing and all, but unless it goes straight from your pocket, and in substantial amounts, I'd let it go.

    With the time I spend worrying what law-makers do, I could invest that energy to earn 100X from whatever they ripped me off of.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[786395].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author raydp
    The irony here is that public opinion caused this shambles. It was thought too controversial to pay MPs the right pay for the job. The result was a sort of "nudge wink - you make it up with expenses" culture.

    Any normal human who is underpaid for their job will take an opportunity to exploit a loophole if it's available, especially if the governing body; in this case the fees office, nods it through.

    In spite of this, I agree that you cannot legally claim for something that doesn't exist, like a paid off mortgage.

    It really needs to be remembered that it's a minority of MPs involved.

    Ray
    Signature

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[794178].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author John Henderson
      Originally Posted by raydp View Post

      The irony here is that public opinion caused this shambles. It was thought too controversial to pay MPs the right pay for the job. The result was a sort of "nudge wink - you make it up with expenses" culture.

      Any normal human who is underpaid for their job will take an opportunity to exploit a loophole if it's available, especially if the governing body; in this case the fees office, nods it through.
      But Ray, when you or I aren't being paid enough, we don't fiddle the figures -- we get another job, or we cut back on our cost of living. I agree with you about the fees office "nudge, wink" culture, but you say underpaid?

      In the last 15 years, central government has given away its responsibilities for administrative and financial controls to:
      • devolved assemblies (Edinburgh, Cardiff, Belfast)
      • unitary authorities
      • directly elected mayors
      • NHS Trusts
      • city academies and other independent state schools
      Going in the other direction of scale, we've recently discovered that somewhere between 50 and 80% of UK legislation is being made by that 'benevolent' dictatorship known as the EU.

      So after they've given away so much responsibility, can we still conclude that Westminister MPs are underpaid? :confused: In the real world, less work and responsibility means less money, not more.

      Originally Posted by raydp View Post

      In spite of this, I agree that you cannot legally claim for something that doesn't exist, like a paid off mortgage.
      Hey Ray, those are the rules that you and I have to live by!

      Originally Posted by raydp View Post

      It really needs to be remembered that it's a minority of MPs involved.
      I hope so! The Telegraph hasn't finished going through the figures yet!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[794702].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Star69
    So you think those guys are underpaid, eh?

    What exactly do they do to earn the money they are paid? Go to a cushy office, do some reading, meet with some people, do some more reading, discuss things with their fellow MPs, listen to them make speeches, make some speeches yourself, vote yea or nay on this and that...go to two-hour lunches, paid for by the taxpayers, of course. (You don't really think they pay for their lunch out of their own pockets like the common people, do you?)

    I have had many jobs where I busted my ass to make $3.50 (US) an hour. Thank God for the minimum wage laws or many people in the U.S. would still be earning slave wages. (Not that minimum wage isn't a slave wage, either!)

    Yet these 'under'paid lawmakers are earning almost $100,000 per year, for doing what? Screwing the taxpayers every time they turn around? Padding their expense accounts? Taking advantage of the public trust?

    When you spend ten hours with a shovel in your hand, spreading gravel all day long, and earning less than $7 per hour, then you can talk to me about these lawmakers being underpaid. Until then, you don't know squat far as I'm concerned!

    It's about time these 'elected' officials became accountable to the people they supposedly represent. That's perhaps the biggest problem in the U.S., a complete breakdown in accountability rules in our elected officials, beginning with the President on down to our local city councilmen. Spend like there's no tomorrow on the most ridiculous things, and when the bill comes due and there's not enough money to cover it, just raise the taxes on the working class...again!

    I say fire every damned one of them who abused the public trust! They deserve to be booted out on their asses. Send the message that if you are not aboveboard and honest in ALL of your dealings, you risk getting the ax.

    That's exactly what they deserve for such misbehavior. The people deserve a lot better.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[794784].message }}
    • [DELETED]
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[813194].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
        Originally Posted by WordPro View Post

        Honestly! The bloody cheek of it! it's bloody laughable, good grief!
        Okay. Either I've just woken up in the 1950s or Tony Hancock has infiltrated the forum




        Frank
        Signature


        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[818888].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author John Henderson
          Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

          Okay. Either I've just woken up in the 1950s or Tony Hancock has infiltrated the forum
          Now that really did make me laugh out loud!
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[818948].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author John Henderson
    Hey Star,

    If you want to see the Brits making their displeasure clear to some politicians, check out this excerpt from the BBC's "Question Time" which was shown last Thursday. The audience unrest starts from about the 5 minute mark onward.

    FYI: a "benefit cheat" is someone who tells lies to get welfare payments from the government.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[794975].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Star69
    It appears that the gentleman MP in the above video is beginning to 'get it', while that old woman is clearly out of touch with reality!

    If your job requires that you have three separate residences, you take that job knowing full well the requirements. If you can't afford it, then don't take it. How hard is that to understand? Yet she obviously took the job, paying for one residence out of her own salary while putting the weight of paying for her other two residences squarely upon the taxpayers! How high and mighty she must consider herself to be!

    And 800 pounds a month for food? I seriously would suggest that the gentleman MP consider brown-bagging it a few days a week and skip the fancy lunches on the expensive banquet china!

    And might I add for those here in the U.S., that nasty old dog of a woman, Speaker of the House Pelosi, should be canned. She's obviously lying to cover her own ass. Everything was fine for her when waterboarding was okay with the Bush administration, but now that it's not so okay, her ass is in a sling and she's throwing the blame everywhere but on herself. Typical scum politician tactics. KICK HER OUT!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[795094].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author raydp
    The whole point of the salary and benefit package is to enable ordinary people to do the job. It prevents the system becoming the province of the rich. Most MPs come from modest families and entered politics because of their beliefs.

    Yes there are rotten apples, but that does not make them all crooks.

    If you believe that someone shovelling gravel should earn the same as an MP who often works 90 hours a week and has a huge responsibility on their shoulders, then you live in some strange egalitarian world that few can understand. As I said in an earlier post - the politics of envy.

    By the way, I have done manual work for a pittance, working on building sites in the depth of winter for long hours. Anyone with a strong arm and back can do it. I've also had highly responsible positions in local government. A hot bath cured the back ache from the manual work, it took more to relieve the stress and headaches from the hours when I had to "do some reading, meet with some people, do some more reading" in a cushy office!

    I sense a resentment against authority, I hope you manage to find a more reasoned view of the world.

    If MPs are guilty of something, then they should be subjected to the full weight of the law and punished with full recognition of the abuse of their office. What I cannot stomach is the wholesale condemnation of the rest of them, who, for the most part are decent hardworking people.

    Ray
    Signature

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[795432].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Phnx
    So Ray, what do you suppose they do for those "90 hours a week" given that most laws are now passed by the EU, and Westminster just rubberstamps them? Perhaps their time is taken up making sure we don't understand what's going on.

    If at least some of them don't get done for fraud then you'll know it really is Corpris Juris we are illegally operating under - ie: Government departments and their employees are all ABOVE the Law. You and I commit an act of fraud, then saying sorry and offering to repay the money will not get you off the hook. They put welfare cheats in prison, the poorest of society earning a little extra without declaring it, to make ends meet, yet those greedy *******s with the most think it's okay.

    >>I sense a resentment against authority, I hope you manage to find a more reasoned view of the world.<<

    The days of tugging our forelocks to our 'betters' have long passed. I sense an unhealthy 'daddy knows best' attitude regarding authority. Most of those you assume are decent hardworking folk have never done a decent days work in their lives. They go straight from University into the political 'system' and unlike the old days don't have to bother with real work. They are career politicians. Same with much of the higher echelons of the Police....straight from University into a deskjob and fast track promotion. Many of them have never worked the beat.

    This is why they are all so out of touch with the 'common man'.

    I suppose we could always vote UKIP (UK Independance Party) instead of the main 3 parties. No crooks there I bet, and they want to give us our sovereignty back. Unless they are 'controlled opposition' of course, because oh look here at the dedication as they fight for our rights....:rolleyes:


    They aren't getting another penny from me. Not one penny. I've already told them I won't be paying my TV License anymore, and when I have the paperwork in place to declare Lawful Rebellion under Article 61 of the Magna Carta, they'll get no more tax, (income or council) - and they can whistle for VAT. Many have gotten their cars back from the DVLA (the Registered Keeper is not the owner, you unwittingly transferred ownership to the DVLA, and they generously let you 'use' it - which is why they get the right to slap all sorts of taxes on you. You could get it 'deregistered' if you had your wits about you - many have done it and more will do so. I don't have a car so no use to me www.tpuc.org)

    The Treason Act makes it quite clear that aiding and abetting traitors in any way - including financially - is Misprison Of Treason. You become guilty by association. In old fashion parlance it is collaborating with the enemy.

    Misfeasance In Public Office is the least of their crimes, and it is your DUTY to fight back, otherwise you spit in the face of all those who fought and died for centuries to give us the 'freedoms' we have squandered. Aside from the treason, the corruption is worthy of some tinpot Banana Republic.
    Signature
    In all matters of opinion, our adversaries are insane. ~ Oscar Wilde (1854 - 1900)

    Easy Weight Loss
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[795946].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Star69
    No, Ray, no resentment of authority, just honesty and accountability! Authority is a necessary 'evil', but just as anyone else, they should do their jobs with integrity and without abusing their position.

    Yes, a wholesale condemnation is not necessary, as most do their jobs, and I would encourage them to ferret out those bad apples who would bring condemnation upon all.

    Still, they are sorely overpaid for what they do, and I don't care how many hours they put in. There's one helluva a difference between a full weeks work digging ditches and a full weeks work of sitting on your ass chatting with your fellows.

    God help the first person who tries to make all of us here in the U.S. buy a license to own a tv! We'd tar and feather them!

    How did you guys let them pass that one by you?
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[796072].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Phnx
      Originally Posted by Star69 View Post


      How did you guys let them pass that one by you?
      It was to fund the BBC in days of yore. Even in these days of satellite/cable and PPV the BBC still demand it's wedge. God forbid they should have to take their chances in the marketplace.

      Even if you don't watch TV, if it is connected to an aerial you have to have a license. That includes a computer that can receive live broadcasts. It's £139.50 which is around $150 dollars a year, and if you don't pay it then you'll get fined £1000. Don't pay that, they'll send you to prison even if you are old and poor. They jailed an old lady in a wheelchair a couple of years back.

      They have a scare tactic where they send 'detector' vans out that can supposedly tell if you are operating a TV without a license, but according to many sources the vans are empty. They have never shown this evidence in court claiming it would harm their ability to nab license dodgers. :rolleyes:
      Signature
      In all matters of opinion, our adversaries are insane. ~ Oscar Wilde (1854 - 1900)

      Easy Weight Loss
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[796100].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Star69
        Originally Posted by Phnx View Post

        They jailed an old lady in a wheelchair a couple of years back.
        Geez! That's like sending someone to prison for spitting on the sidewalk! Talk about overkill! Whats next, requiring a license to rent a flat? A permit to walk on the sidewalk? A fee to be out at night after curfew?

        I better quit. I may be giving them ideas.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[796125].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Phnx
          Originally Posted by Star69 View Post

          Geez! That's like sending someone to prison for spitting on the sidewalk! Talk about overkill! Whats next, requiring a license to rent a flat? A permit to walk on the sidewalk? A fee to be out at night after curfew?

          I better quit. I may be giving them ideas.
          The whole thing hinges on deceit. When you buy a TV you have to give your name and address, and the shop must send those details to TV Licensing. People think this is a Government Department, but it's not. It's a dept in the BBC. However, it doesn't look too good for the image when Aunty Beeb (as she is fondly known) sends menacing letters to people. Or runs commercials telling people they are being 'watched' and threatening dire consequences if they don't pay up. 'Tis extortion really.

          When the henchman turn up saying their records indicate there is no license at that address and "may we come in" most people let them in. If there is a TV blaring away in the background you are now gonna have to find £1000 to pay the fine coming your way. If only people knew that they are NOT legally obliged to let them in. They'll threaten to come back with a 'warrant' and a policeman, but it's all bluff. If you don't let them in, and don't admit to anything, there is not one thing they can do to you - unless they look through the window and can see the TV.

          It's all based on intimidation and lies.

          ETA: Have a look at this clip of the 'contract henchmen' getting violent with this disabled guy...
          http://tpuc.org/node/143
          Signature
          In all matters of opinion, our adversaries are insane. ~ Oscar Wilde (1854 - 1900)

          Easy Weight Loss
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[796200].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Star69
    History being made!!!

    British expense scandal ousts lower house speaker

    By JENNIFER QUINN, Associated Press Writer Jennifer Quinn, Associated Press Writer - Tue May 19, 4:31 pm ET

    LONDON - For the first time in three centuries, the speaker of the House of Commons has resigned -- the biggest casualty in a widening scandal in which lawmakers expensed such things as installing a chandelier or cleaning a moat at a country home.

    Michael Martin took just 30 seconds Tuesday to break with centuries of convention, announcing that in the interest of maintaining unity in Parliament's lower house, he would leave his prestigious post by June 21.

    "That is all I have to say on this matter," Martin said softly in his Scottish accent, swiftly calling the house to order and moving on to other business.

    Lawmakers who had crowded the chamber to hear the historic announcement filed out, surprised that such a moment was over in a flash.

    The rest of Britain will likely not move on so easily. Since details of lawmakers' expenses became public earlier this month, the public's anger has intensified. Claims have included such mundane items as cookies and pet food to more costly ones such as a chandelier installation, cleaning of a moat and even mortgage payments.

    Conservative leader David Cameron is asking the public to sign a petition urging Prime Minister Gordon Brown to call an election as soon as possible, offering voters a chance to kick out lawmakers who have abused expenses.
    Brown is resisting calling an election. He said Tuesday that any lawmaker in his Labour Party who broke expense rules won't be allowed to run in next national election, which must be held by mid-2010.

    Instead, he is calling for an overhaul of the system which allowed excesses, and said that Parliament can no longer self-regulate, but should hand supervision of salaries and expenses over to an independent body.

    "Westminster cannot operate like some gentleman's club, where the members make up the rules," he said, noting that a junior minister in his government has had to step down and that two members of his party were suspended over their claims.

    In a second statement to lawmakers later Tuesday, Martin said Britain's political leaders had agreed to a set of emergency measures aimed at cleaning up the expense system. The proposed rules would bar lawmakers from claiming taxpayer money for furniture, impose a cap on the amount of cash claimed for mortgage payments, and provide for all claims to be published online every three months.

    The last measure is particularly striking given that, only a few months ago, the government was still seeking to keep the expense claims secret.

    Martin has not been caught up in the recent revelations about lawmakers' expenses, although his spending has been scrutinized in the past. And as the latest wave of revelations hit, Martin was blamed for creating a climate in which such excesses were allowed.

    He became a symbol of the scandal because he has resisted reforms designed to make lawmakers' expenses more transparent. But the lawmakers themselves have been reluctant to expose their sometimes lavish spending, and Martin's defenders said he was taking the fall for their avarice.

    The Daily Telegraph began publishing stories about lawmakers' claims earlier this month after being leaked thousands of pages of details. About 80 lawmakers have been singled out so far, but the newspaper publishes new details every day and the scandal shows no sign of stopping. No party has been spared embarrassment, with Labour, Conservatives, and Liberal Democrats all coming under fire.

    Martin was elected to represent a Glasgow constituency in 1979 as a Labour Party lawmaker and became speaker in 2000. Speakers usually choose when they retire, and are generally not subject to the whims of the electorate.

    So Martin had to run for re-election when the country went to the polls, but tradition dictated that major political parties don't field candidates in the speaker's constituency.

    Last year, he was criticized for claiming about 4,280 pounds ($6,640) for his wife's taxi fares and around 17,500 pounds ($27,140) toward the cost of his second home in Scotland while he lived in a government-paid apartment in the Palace of Westminster.

    The new speaker, who will be chosen from the 646 lawmakers in the House of Commons, will take over a position steeped in history and tradition.

    The speaker is entrusted with the running of the House of Commons, trying to maintain decorum during debates -- sometimes shouting "Order! Order!" -- and deciding which lawmakers are called on. He or she also represents the chamber in discussions with Queen Elizabeth II and the House of Lords.
    Unlike in the U.S., where the speaker of the House of Representatives is often a partisan advocate for the majority party, the British speaker is supposed to be impartial and independent of government.

    Speakers are usually treated with great respect, and publicly criticizing them just isn't done. The last speaker to be forced from his position was Sir John Trevor, who was found guilty of accepting a bribe in 1695.
    Rodney Barker, a government professor at the London School of Economics, said Martin's departure shows Parliament is taking reform seriously.

    "It won't solve anything at all, but if his successor could appear to be taking charge of things in a way that implements proper procedures, probity, and decent use of public money, that would be the very opposite of Michael Martin's position," Barker said. "He has been seen as a supporter of the most greedy and the most mean."

    British expense scandal ousts lower house speaker
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[799247].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Mike Wright
      BBC NEWS | Politics | MPs to debate changes to expenses

      If they think saying sorry and doing this will appease and end
      voter's and citizen's displeasure at the way things have been
      going in the UK in recent decades ... they are mistaken!

      The days of career politicians and gravy trains are ending in the UK.
      When even the Queen has had enough of all the crap ... an ongoing
      clearout is inevitable. What the imminent local and Euro elections will
      bring is anyone's guess. What the national elections bring will be
      interesting to say the least.

      Overturning 300 years of tradition is indicative of just how seriously
      everyone is taking things.

      Enough is enough!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[800350].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author AbsolutionRT
    Banned
    [DELETED]
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[800415].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Star69
      Originally Posted by AbsolutionRT View Post

      I\'m not at all sure why anyone on earth is surprised by any of this activity. This is how it is, and how it has been.
      But it is not how it HAS to be!

      "When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. When the government fears the people there is liberty."
      ~
      Thomas Jefferson
      That is applicable to any nation.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[801443].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author John Henderson
    I think that all 3 of the main parties have seen how close the Euro elections are, and have collectively crapped themselves when they've realised how likely it is that the general public will vote for the smaller parties to punish the big 3.

    Consequence: Who the hell we'll actually send to the European parliament is anyone's guess.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[801393].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
    Bureaucrats in front of a firing squad? That's my kind of talk
    Signature

    siggy taking a break...

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[804456].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Star69
    But too bad that's all it will be, just talk...
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[804533].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author raydp
    You people are unreal! You talk like paranoid 6th form anarchists. Anyone of a sound mind and not a convicted felon can stand for parliament in the UK. MPs aren'y born as some sort of rogue species. There are some bad ones, but the rest are nearly all hardworking people like you or me.

    Why the irrational hatred apart from some misguided rebellion against any form of authority?

    No doubt you hate the police as well!

    Firing squads for political reasons are for backward third world countries. Hopefully you'll never, ever attain responsible positions in society.

    Any chance you'll grow up soon?

    Ray
    Signature

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[804666].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Mike Wright
      Originally Posted by raydp View Post

      You people are unreal! You talk like paranoid 6th form anarchists. Anyone of a sound mind and not a convicted felon can stand for parliament in the UK. MPs aren'y born as some sort of rogue species. There are some bad ones, but the rest are nearly all hardworking people like you or me.

      Why the irrational hatred apart from some misguided rebellion against any form of authority?

      No doubt you hate the police as well!

      Firing squads for political reasons are for backward third world countries. Hopefully you'll never, ever attain responsible positions in society.

      Any chance you'll grow up soon?

      Ray
      Dear oh dear me ..... a rant from a youth only born in the Thatcherite
      "greed is good" era.

      Word of advice Ray, there are lots of us in here who are in their 30's,
      40's, 50's and even 60's including myself in the latter group. It might
      be wise therefore, not to display the extent of your experience so
      carelessly.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[804867].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author John Henderson
      Originally Posted by raydp View Post

      You people are unreal! You talk like paranoid 6th form anarchists. Anyone of a sound mind and not a convicted felon can stand for parliament in the UK. MPs aren'y born as some sort of rogue species. There are some bad ones, but the rest are nearly all hardworking people like you or me.

      Why the irrational hatred apart from some misguided rebellion against any form of authority?
      Ray, I can't speak for the others in this thread -- I'm personally not asking for firing squads -- I'm simply expecting that our elected officials will be subject to the same rules that you and I are subject to. Much evidence suggests that they haven't been in the past and possibly won't be in the near future. This makes me rather cross. I don't have a problem with authority, I have a problem with hypocrisy.

      In the past two weeks, it has come to light that:
      • Members of the very government who have been telling us that the economy is "safe in their hands" are now confessing that "accountancy is not my strong suit" to explain that they've "made mistakes";
      • The people who have been raising our taxes to pay for colossal public-sector projects, have themselves been switching the designations of their properties to avoid paying capital gains tax;
      • Members of the main opposition party who have been preaching smaller government and tax cuts have, in fact, been helping themselves to as much money as they can get their hands on;
      • MPs who have been caught red-handed are saying "sorry" or stepping down from their positions -- but at the same time, they're telling us that they've "done nothing wrong". The people who claim innocence because they have "acted within the rules" are, in the very next breath, calling for those rules to be changed;
      Like I say Ray, this drives me up the wall. You or I wouldn't get away with it!

      However, you're right that we shouldn't tar all MPs with the same brush. The MP for Luton North, Kelvin Hopkins offers a stark contrast to the type that have been hitting the headlines: Kelvin Hopkins, the MP who disdains to claim: MPs expenses - Telegraph
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[807278].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Mike Wright
        Originally Posted by John Henderson View Post

        Ray, I can't speak for the others in this thread -- I'm personally not asking for firing squads -- I'm simply expecting that our elected officials will be subject to the same rules that you and I are subject to. Much evidence suggests that they haven't been in the past and possibly won't be in the near future. This makes me rather cross. I don't have a problem with authority, I have a problem with hypocrisy.

        In the past two weeks, it has come to light that:
        • Members of the very government who have been telling us that the economy is "safe in their hands" are now confessing that "accountancy is not my strong suit" to explain that they've "made mistakes";
        • The people who have been raising our taxes to pay for colossal public-sector projects, have themselves been switching the designations of their properties to avoid paying capital gains tax;
        • Members of the main opposition party who have been preaching smaller government and tax cuts have, in fact, been helping themselves to as much money as they can get their hands on;
        • MPs who have been caught red-handed are saying "sorry" or stepping down from their positions -- but at the same time, they're telling us that they've "done nothing wrong". The people who claim innocence because they have "acted within the rules" are, in the very next breath, calling for those rules to be changed;
        Like I say Ray, this drives me up the wall. You or I wouldn't get away with it!

        However, you're right that we shouldn't tar all MPs with the same brush. The MP for Luton North, Kelvin Hopkins offers a stark contrast to the type that have been hitting the headlines: Kelvin Hopkins, the MP who disdains to claim: MPs expenses - Telegraph
        As somewhat in contrast to the Member for Luton South, who seems likely
        to be replaced with Ester Rantzen at the next election.

        I agree about the rank hypocricy John, plus the fact that those who are
        clearly the culprits take dynamite to prise them out of post. No honour,
        no integrity, no morals, no ethics and personal greed has become almost
        a code of conduct in the UK amongst those of whom we would expect
        much better.

        Our local and largely never seen MP featured in the recent "sleaze pages"
        in relation to a second London home. In fact they live in some
        considerable style in a very desirable countryside location and house less
        than 5 miles from me. What was not mentioned is that they live minutes
        away from major A road access to London and minutes away from a
        main rail station providing regular and frequent 25 minute journey times
        to London. A London home at taxpayers expense merely funds their
        family business and choice of lifestyle .... any benefit to Parliament
        or Taxpayers is minimal at best!

        Yes, there are still some "good eggs" in Parliament and elsewhere.
        However, if one "good egg" somewhere makes a stand on principles
        or facts about something, they are immediately assaulted by hordes
        of "bad eggs" crying "whistleblower" often to considerable effect.
        I for one hope the tide has turned so that "bad eggs" become a small
        minority once more .... and that Morally-bankrupt Britain can once
        more become Great Britain in the eyes of it's citizens and the eyes of the world.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[807944].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author John Henderson
          Originally Posted by Mike Wright View Post

          I agree about the rank hypocricy John, plus the fact that those who are clearly the culprits take dynamite to prise them out of post. No honour, no integrity, no morals, no ethics and personal greed has become almost a code of conduct in the UK amongst those of whom we would expect much better.
          Their shamelessness beggars belief! As Star69 said about the "Question Time" clip posted earlier in the thread, Ming Campbell (and Theresa May, for that matter) seemed to have understood the gravity of the situation, whereas Margaret Beckett was still in total denial. The imperious way that she dismissed the anger of the audience had to be seen to be believed.

          I didn't think that these guys could get anymore brazen until Anthony Steen MP, when interviewed on BBC Radio 4, said that the public were just "jealous" of his lifestyle and that his expenses claims were "none of their business".
          BBC NEWS | Politics | Cameron warns 'jealousy' MP Steen
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[810138].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author derekwong28
    UK House of Lords suspends 2 over corruption claims - CNN.com

    And so sleeze widens! These sorts of things go on everywhere in the world and I still think that UK is among the least corrupt countries.
    Signature

    Do not get between a wombat and a chocolate biscuit; you will regret it dearly!

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[804933].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author raydp
    Mike - You don't actually know my age and I'm not going to tell you, but here's a clue. In my youth I was friends with a number of pop artists/musicians. They include Eden Kane, Peter Sarstedt (his brother), Roy Budd (think film scores Get Carter etc) Gary Mills, (Follow a Star etc).

    Derek, I agree the UK is far less bent than many other places.

    Ray
    Signature

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[805223].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Mike Wright
      Originally Posted by raydp View Post

      Mike - You don't actually know my age and I'm not going to tell you, but here's a clue. In my youth I was friends with a number of pop artists/musicians. They include Eden Kane, Peter Sarstedt (his brother), Roy Budd (think film scores Get Carter etc) Gary Mills, (Follow a Star etc).

      Derek, I agree the UK is far less bent than many other places.

      Ray
      If this ...
      Date of Birth January 30, 1985 (24)is wrong, why profile it at all?

      Well, I am 67.5 years young, partially disabled and with friends and
      acquantainces who cringe at "name-dropping". However, as a contextual
      time reference I can say factually that I was at Grammar School in Cambridge in the mid 1950's
      when we had a new tall imposing disciplinarian Headmaster by the name of Mr Newton-John. He lived nearby with his family including his yet-to-be famous daughter Olivia. There is some confirmation of that in her Biography at Olivia Newton-John -> the Olivia Newton-John Home Page, biography
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[807220].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
        Originally Posted by Mike Wright View Post

        If this ...
        Date of Birth January 30, 1985 (24)is wrong, why profile it at all?
        Just a note -- it seems that that DOB is the default, unless the user actually goes in and changes it. For example, here is Yanik Silver's profile:

        WarriorForum - Internet Marketing Forums - View Profile: yaniksilver

        I think it defaulted to that date when we switched forums.

        OK, carry on.

        Cheers,
        Becky
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[807345].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
    Oh no I don't hate police. They are mostly good people who would respond if I had an emergency. But I hate greedy, corrupt politicians and would like to put them in front of a firing squads.

    Some policemen don't get paid too well, guess according to some's logic that's an excuse to rob a bank or turn corrupt and who could be surprised or blame them?

    Mike - You don't actually know my age and I'm not going to tell you, but here's a clue. In my youth I was friends with a number of pop artists/musicians. They include Eden Kane, Peter Sarstedt (his brother), Roy Budd (think film scores Get Carter etc) Gary Mills, (Follow a Star etc).
    Never heard of any of those people. You must be very old.
    Signature

    siggy taking a break...

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[806200].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author raydp
    Yes my dear and much wiser for it!

    Ray
    Signature

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[806485].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Star69
    Interesting to note that these same British lawmakers who are stepping down as a sign of penitence probably will never be brought into court and charged with the crimes they have committed.

    Though you and I would face charges of theft and possibly fraud under the very same circumstances..

    Seems some consider themselves to be above the law. They should not be let go so easily.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[807933].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author raydp
    "I for one hope the tide has turned so that "bad eggs" become a small
    minority once more .... and that Morally-bankrupt Britain can once
    more become Great Britain in the eyes of it's citizens and the eyes of the world." - I agree but still think this whole matter has got out of hand.

    A few years back the UK's gold reserves were sold at a knock down price. The loss sustained by the UK has been estimated to be around £5 Billion. Are the public angry? No.

    A change to the taxation of dividends some 11 years ago has cost the British pension funds around £5 Billion every year since. Are the public angry? No.

    A windfall tax on the privatised industries of £5 Billion was also imposed.. A hugely popular act at the time, when there was an hysterical "let's hit the fat cats" mood. Of course, the clamouring masses didn't realise that the largest group of "fat cat shareholders" were the pension funds! Have the public reacted and even become angry? NO.

    We have a pensions crisis in the UK now. Millions who contributed to pension schemes for their entire working life have had those funds raided. The public have largely ignored this but were whipped into a frenzy over a relatively trifling sum bacause the story was sold to them as theft of their tax money!

    The same public whose opinion is offended by the thought of someone either earning more than them, or getting something extra "on the side" will willingly pay inflated ticket prices to see foreign £75,000 per week footballers playing for their local team. Those same people are after the blood of MPs for a few thousand pounds over a 4 year period!

    Can nobody see that whilst I agree MPs who actually are found to have broken the law should go to jail, I cannot see that those who maximised their income and stayed within the rules should be sacked. Some of them have looked at the situation and on reflection, felt they were wrong and have refunded the taxpayer the trivial sums involved. I don't see this action as an admission of guilt, just a common sense act.

    As for those claims that were "mistakes", that's a different ballgame. Who is to know if they are genuine or not? What about those who made the mistake of not claiming their dues, will some journalists wade through 4 years figures to try to obtain their entitlement for them?

    This has been a clever campaign to sell papers and has turned the UK public into an unthinking lynch mob.

    The only solution, now the wolves are baying for blood, is to investigate the serious cases - it won't take long, there's not many - and prosecute the lawbreakers. All MP's should then stand for reselection followed by a General election.

    Of course, the rules must be changed and a more sensible payment structure for MPs pay brought in. I believe this is happening, so why can't we get on with more important matters. There's lots wrong with this country the public should be angry about.

    Ray
    Signature

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[808080].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author John Henderson
      Originally Posted by raydp View Post

      A few years back the UK's gold reserves were sold at a knock down price. The loss sustained by the UK has been estimated to be around £5 Billion. Are the public angry? No.

      A change to the taxation of dividends some 11 years ago has cost the British pension funds around £5 Billion every year since. Are the public angry? No.

      A windfall tax on the privatised industries of £5 Billion was also imposed.. A hugely popular act at the time, when there was an hysterical "let's hit the fat cats" mood. Of course, the clamouring masses didn't realise that the largest group of "fat cat shareholders" were the pension funds! Have the public reacted and even become angry? NO.

      We have a pensions crisis in the UK now. Millions who contributed to pension schemes for their entire working life have had those funds raided. The public have largely ignored this but were whipped into a frenzy over a relatively trifling sum bacause the story was sold to them as theft of their tax money!
      I can't disagree with you here, Ray. It does seem strange that the public can accept incompetence that costs them billions, but can't forgive dishonesty that costs them millions.

      I think that a big factor behind the government's ability to "get away with murder" is the political "news management" that the British media has contended with since the run-up to the 1997 election -- spin, sound-bites, etc. The governing party is very experienced in burying, obfuscating or denying any damaging news stories.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[810160].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Mike Wright
        Well, I differ on several issues

        The pensions issue is an interesting one.
        Pre-Thatcher, company pension funds were "ring-fenced" and inviolable
        as were company contributions. These funds were controlled by a Board
        of Trustees and managed under strict rules.

        Subsequently these rules were relaxed so that companies could both borrow
        from their own huge pension funds and delay/defer the required contributions
        to properly fulfil their responsibilities. The inevitable ensued with companies robbing
        the pension funds and pensioners whilst continuing to pay huge sums to shareholders,
        investors and executives. The Maxwell saga was a notable example for a great many
        people in the overall "public".

        Of course taxation put a crimp in pension expectations for some ... while
        others ended up with zero.

        It should also be understood that pension funds had also invested in
        a variety of financial sectors including vast sums in property. I am
        sure the consequences of the recent economic tsunami will be clear.
        Multi-billion pension "black holes" are unforgiveable and inexcusable!

        There are a great many Brits who have had enough. It has been stated
        many times that "Brits are a nation of individuals who come together
        in times of crisis". Well, Brits have been coming together increasingly
        since the Invasion of Iraq. Protest marches and strikes are in a
        substantial resurgence. The present government has contingency plans
        for a "Summer of disobedience".

        For decades our town was overwhelmingly a safe Labour seat. Three
        elctions ago, the whole town was a sea of red window stickers.Two
        elections ago, only around about a third as many Red stickers were to
        be seen. At the last election it was hard to find a red sticker anywhere
        at all .... but there were a few more yellow and a few blue ones.

        This time around, we were unsurprised to find a much larger number
        of parties standing for the local and MEP elections. Just maybe this might
        be the end or the beginning of the end for our tired old two and a bit
        party system? One thing is for sure ....many people are not forgetting
        or forgiving or drawing lines under things. Change is coming, maybe a
        bit at a time, maybe not at the next election ... but it will come. It
        may not be to my liking or your liking but it will come.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[810851].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author John Henderson
          Originally Posted by Mike Wright View Post

          Well, I differ on several issues

          ...

          ....many people are not forgetting or forgiving or drawing lines under things. Change is coming, maybe a bit at a time, maybe not at the next election ... but it will come. It may not be to my liking or your liking but it will come.
          You're right Mike, but I think that Ray is comparing other issues and asking "Is the public angry?" with the sudden and overwhelming cry of horror from the electorate over the expenses fiasco.

          Other issues (e.g. pensions black holes) have certainly angered people, but they seem to me to have been 'slow burners'. The public disgust over the expenses claims has been much more like a large firework.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[811068].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author raydp
    Quite right Becky, I have not changed the default date.

    By the way Mike it wasn't name dropping, I don't think ones staus is elevated by the fame of ones teenage friends and neighbours. It was just providing a time frame.

    Ray
    Signature

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[808106].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author definitive
    I think all politicians should have there expense reports made as public record
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[808336].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Star69
      Originally Posted by definitive View Post

      I think all politicians should have there expense reports made as public record
      Yes. They are 'public' officials, after all. If they don't want to have to give full disclosure, then don't apply for the job, simple as that.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[808458].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author raydp
    That's the whole point John, it's like a man who puts up with his house being burned down, his wife being kidnapped and his dog shot. But, when his car is scratched he sets out on a massive vengeance mission. He's not sure who did it and so blames all his neighbours "their all as bad as each other" and so seeks to destroy them.

    Ray
    Signature

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[811489].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Mike Wright
      Come now gentlemen, the expenses issue is far from trivial.
      The amazing speed at which government, Parliament and political
      parties implemented damage limitation is itself damning evidence
      of the scale of this issue. There have already been some casualties.
      A further 120 MPs are projected to be standing down for the next
      national elections.

      For many people in the UK, this issue is one insult too many ... not
      a scratched car/final straw. Apathy and inaction are no longer
      options for an increasing number of the British public and voters.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[812344].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author derekwong28
    Corruption or abuse of power or privileges at any level is bad and indefensible. But I just can't help feeling that the MPs are relatively small frys compared to those higher up. For example just look at how much Blair is earning now and how much much Mark Thatcher has earnt as a result of Margaret Thatcher' connections. I am sure a lot of current and past ministers have unsavory connections with the Russian oligarchs and Indian billionaires like Mittal. Many can rely on getting a very lucrative job once they leave office.

    If you look further afield you have got Belursconi who is possibly the most corrupt politicians in the West. The corrupt politics of Chicago don't even figure in comparison. A past president in South Korea had just committed suicide after being implicated in a bribery scandal. A past president of Taiwan is on trial. Both of these were well known human rights campaigners. So were cyril ramaphosa and tokyo sexwale who were well known ANC campaigners in S. Africa.

    More shocking is Kim Dae Jung who is dubbed "Asia's Mandela". His sons had been jailed for corruption although there was not enought evidence to implicate him. The same is true of Benizir Bhutto whose husband is now the president of Pakistan. He used to be known as Mr ten percent. After following news and politics for a while, it is very difficult to avoid being cynical.

    Derek
    Signature

    Do not get between a wombat and a chocolate biscuit; you will regret it dearly!

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[812681].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Star69
    Interesting that you complain about us here in the states saying the slightest thing about the MP scandal, yet then you ask our opinion in the above post? Or were you just asking the rest of the world?

    I honestly don't care if other nationalities stick their nose into our business, all they are doing is giving their opinion, just as I was giving mine. It's up to you whether you give it the time of day or not (obviously from your posting here, you can't help but add your two cents, which is okay, by the way. Nothing wrong with anyone's opinions.)

    We have a minimum speed limit on our major motorways, 40 miles per hour. You can be fined for going slower.

    But there are times in winter when weather conditions are such that driving faster than 35 miles per hour would be taking your life into your hands.

    So we should never drive slower than 40 miles per hour? What might my excuse be if I am stopped by police for driving faster than sane judgment would permit, that it was within the law?

    Just because it is within the law does not make it ethical. I'm glad this all came out.

    You only know what has been reported (caught). What else have they been up to that you are not aware of? You say these amounts are trivial. Sorry, I don't consider thousands of pounds to be a trivial amount!

    Get away with something, they'll figure they can get away with something more. Where does it stop?

    It stops with a good slapping down like they're getting.

    I wish it were happening here in the states, as our government could use a good house cleaning. Corruption and back-office deals are rampant in Washington, D.C.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[813265].message }}
    • [DELETED]
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[813553].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author myob
        Originally Posted by WordPro View Post

        I can add my two pennies because quite simply, I am British, unlike yourself, posting away with self righteous indignation upon matters of no real concern to you, since you are not British and do not live here.
        We all simply enjoy looking at the dirty laundry of other nations more so than our own. It's just human nature. For example, that is why French (Indy), British (Phnx), (and even poor little Monaco - ConcordeWarrior) citizens post here regularly pointing meticulously to the stains in US panties and underwear, while their own unwashed laundry pile just keeps getting bigger and bigger. Get over it. Just my two pence.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[815481].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author raydp
    I reiterate, the MPs are underpaid in comparison to other professions and levels of responsibility. Back in the seventies a culture of "we know the pay is low, but the public might object if we put it up. To put things right, you can have generous expenses" so it's no surprise that bending the rules looks wrong now that most people are unaware of the history.

    MOST OF THEM BROKE NO RULES! Yes the rules need to be changed and a realistic rate of pay for the job brought in. Some of them went too far and are paying the price.

    It's a pity, but most people are, in fact stupid and only read headlines. They form opinions based on the biggest headline and the biggest mouths. Over here the politics of envy play a role. Most low paid workers seriously believe they should get the same pay as MPs, industry leaders etc. These are the same idiots who appear on the X Factor unable to sing, but get angry when they are rejected. Unfortunately, the clamour from these voices forms the much vaunted "Public opinion". This is egged on by what we, in the UK term the tabloid and red top newspapers.

    It's becoming a very dangerous situation. Largely blameless scapegoats and economic disaster have, in the past, led to the rise of dictators.

    The system may be flawed, but the alternative is far worse and more than a little terrifying.

    Ray
    Signature

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[813529].message }}
  • [DELETED]
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[813578].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Mike Wright
      I see no reason why Star69 or anyone else should not be as free to post
      their views on UK issues as we are to comment on theirs. There are those
      in here who can have reasoned and reasonable discussions without
      resorting to throwing rocks and requesting topic deletion

      The media is now a two way street, and no longer the sole perogative
      of governments and powerful vested interests to advance their agendas.
      This is proving very uncomfortable for those who thought that they
      were safe behind all manner of protective walls including public apathy
      and ignorance. Parliamentary MPs are merely one such group to
      experience what "The Public Interest" really means.

      A quick trawl through the media today reveals that there is one
      projection that upto 350 MPs may stand down at the next election,
      and that there will be the largest House clearout since 1945. Presumably
      this indicates that there are about 300 MPs who are "good eggs"
      and/or have safe seats.

      On BBC TV News this morning, there was an interesting segment
      with three young politicians from the main parties all singing from
      the same hymnsheet over changes which needed to be made in
      UK politics. I was somewhat amazed and pleasantly surprised to
      hear them stating that MPs should be primarily responsible to
      their local constituency and community. Also that any Party Whip
      system should not overide constituency or conscience considerations.

      In my view, change in British Politics has now moved from pivotal
      to transitional. The facts are unavoidable. It would seem that
      People Power is on a roll in the UK ... not dissimilar to its resurgence
      in other countries around the world in recent years
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[814929].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author josefnew
    Finally, UK can now join the list of corrupt nations in the world!
    Signature
    Get the bustline that gets you attention
    from Guys without going
    under the knife!

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[814935].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author John Henderson
      Originally Posted by WordPro View Post

      ...but the vast majority of claims were perfectly within the rules and quite rightly so too.

      The MP's are not the problem here, it is the rules themselves which need a good looking at...

      ...

      What's the point in knocking them down when most of the time, in most of the cases, the politicians were only claiming for what was by rule of law, was theirs anyway?
      Originally Posted by raydp View Post

      MOST OF THEM BROKE NO RULES! Yes the rules need to be changed...
      Gentlemen, before we all sit here like parrots repeating "The rules are to blame, the rules are to blame!", could I respectfully guide you to take a look at the rules themselves, rather than the MPs version of what the rules state?
      (Link: UK Parliament - Members' allowances -- PDF link: "The Green Book 2009: A guide to members' allowances" )

      Page 4, Section 1.1:
      Parliamentary allowances are designed to ensure that Members are reimbursed for costs properly incurred in the performance of their duties. They provide support for:
      • employing staff (Staffing Expenditure)
      • provision of facilities, equipment and supplies for themselves and their staff (Administrative and Office Expenditure)
      • overnight stays away from home whilst on parliamentary duties (Personal Additional Accommodation Expenditure)
      • communicating with constituents (Communications
      • Expenditure)
      • House stationery and postage (Stationery and Postage)
      • travel - between Westminster, the constituency and main
      • home (Travel expenditure)
      Now, obviously not all expenses can be put neatly into one category or another, so there are some guidelines to help MPs to judge whether they can claim for something or not...

      Page 7, Section 1.3: "Fundamental Principles"
      The principles are:
      • Claims should be above reproach and must reflect actual usage of the resources being claimed.
      • Claims must only be made for expenditure that it was necessary for a Member to incur to ensure that he or she could properly perform his or her parliamentary duties.
      • Allowances are reimbursed only for the purpose of a Member carrying out his or her parliamentary duties. Claims cannot relate to party political activity of any sort, nor must any claim provide a benefit to a party political organisation.
      • It is not permissible for a Member to claim under any parliamentary allowance for anything that the Member is claiming from any other source.
      • Members must ensure that claims do not give rise to, or give the appearance of giving rise to, an improper personal financial benefit to themselves or anyone else.
      • Members are committed to openness about what expenditure has been incurred and for what purposes.
      • Individual Members take personal responsibility for all expenses incurred, for making claims and for keeping records, even if the administration of claims is delegated by them to others.
      • The requirement of ensuring value for money is central in claiming for accommodation, goods or services - Members should avoid purchases which could be seen as extravagant or luxurious.
      • Claims must be supported by documentary evidence, except where the House has agreed that such evidence is not necessary.
      I think that the principles on page 7 pretty much blow most "I deny any wrong-doing" claims out of the water.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[815616].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
    You don't have to be British to post in this thread. That's ridiculous. Anyone can post in any thread, they can be from any country in the world and no control freaks telling who can or cannot post in certain threads is ridiculous.
    Signature

    siggy taking a break...

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[816144].message }}
    • [DELETED]
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[816618].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author myob
        Originally Posted by WordPro View Post

        Well, not to be too pedantic about it, now that I understand that it is completely against the forum rules to discuss politics here or engage in political debate, I think the wisest thing to do is to simply close the thread here. ...
        I agree with you, but this has nothing to do with politics at all. It is abolutely true that we are not allowed to talk about REAL politics here. As I see it from the OP, this is only about dirty laundry, porn movies, horse manure, chocolate Santa Claus, and American - style greedy *******s. I don't see anything here about politics, unless you consider your puppets of the Illuminati to be politicians. Could you be a little more specific in your allegations?
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[816648].message }}
        • [DELETED]
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[816876].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author myob
            Originally Posted by myob
            ...Could you be a little more specific in your allegations?
            Originally Posted by WordPro View Post

            No, sorry.
            WordPro, then what is your basis for your request "to simply close the thread here"? This is utterly fallacious, a blatant provocation, and a repudiation of fair use by one being so self-righteous as to deny others their Mod-given right of free association and expression. How dare you to play Mod by deciding what thread should be deleted!
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[816918].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Originally Posted by myob View Post

    WordPro, then what is your basis for your request "to simply close the thread here"? This is utterly fallacious, a blatant provocation, and a repudiation of fair use by one being so self-righteous as to deny others their Mod-given right of free association and expression. How dare you to play Mod by deciding what thread should be deleted!
    No - not codswallop.

    There are many people in this thread who apparently want to discuss this issue - and you have decided that because you don't like the issue, no one should be allowed to discuss it when you could just as easily pass up the thread. What is wrong with you besides an inflated sense of self-righteousness? It is THAT type of attitude that the people who are stealing from you have about the rest of your fellow citizens. If you think that's just fine, too, then just shuffle your money off to them - but don't expect everyone else to be okay with it.

    As far as nationality of poster -- remember you said that...because it's going to come back to haunt you some time. Some time you will notice something going on in another nation, and people will remember you said that.
    Signature

    Sal
    When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
    Beyond the Path

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[817301].message }}
    • [DELETED]
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[817424].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author mattinertia
        "We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office" - Aesop 550 BC
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[817511].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Mike Wright
          Originally Posted by mattinertia View Post

          "We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office" - Aesop 550 BC
          Welcome Matt
          Strange absence of backlinks though
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[817532].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author John Henderson
        Originally Posted by WordPro View Post

        Seems to me that several here, all they want to do anyway is to argue and frankly that doesn't appeal to me at all. Too old for that kind of thing.
        The difference between 'arguing' and 'debating' is the open-mindedness of the participants. If you come to a forum, vociferously insist that your viewpoint is completely correct and ignore anyone else's position, then what you get is an argument. But if you contribute to the forum and accompany your viewpoint with a little bit of reasoning as to why you've come to your particular conclusions, then a reasoned debate can take place with other participants.

        Take a look at previous posts in this thread, and you'll see that Mike Wright, RayDP, Star69 and myself have asserted some of our points, but also conceded others as we debate each other's views on this subject.

        As for the ban on politics, well most members understand that it's party politics that's banned from the forums. So, we don't cheer for any particular party, but will debate political issues generally.

        Originally Posted by WordPro View Post

        My apologies if I gave off the wrong impression above.
        It might be worth remembering that this forum was set up by an American, is moderated by Americans and is hosted on a server in the United States. So the way I see it, we Brits are playing in the Yanks' sandpit.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[817672].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author mattinertia
    Not had time yet!! :-)
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[817539].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
    Wordpro if you're so against discussing politics since it's against the rules here why did you discuss politics before demanding the thread be closed? It's like throwing in your 2 political sense then so others can't respond demanding the thread be closed because they are breaking the rules just as you did. And if you don't like the thread, simply don't click and don't post. You're just whining now.

    And I don't think the thread was intended to be political but more about what's on the news and what the corrupt are spending taxpayers money on.
    Signature

    siggy taking a break...

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[817963].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author John Henderson
    Originally Posted by Mike Wright View Post

    In fact, there is very little being rolled out and espoused by the big two Parties that has not been on the backburner for the last 20 years.
    Mike, you don't have to go back that far. Do you remember who promised us a government that was "whiter than white"? Then he fired the Commons Standards Commissioner, Elizabeth Filkin...
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/1693313.stm

    And then in 2008, the high court ordered that his expenses should be opened to public gaze. Guess what happened?
    Tony Blair&rsquo;s expenses shredded - Times Online
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[820824].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author ATV
    political stuff sickens me these days. Most politicians are nothing but elected criminals. We hear about things like this, but just imagine the stuff that we do not hear about.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[821613].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author raydp
    I've just found this, a bit late, but worht a viewing.

    BBC NEWS | Programmes | Newsnight | Village People: Are MP expenses peanuts?

    Ray
    Signature

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[867113].message }}

Trending Topics