Criminal Population Increases Linked To Lead Poisoning

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The more lead there is in any given environment, the greater the population of criminals:
Life Sentence | elreporterosf.com

(Yeah, I know, the taxpayer-funded "private" criminal incarceration business contributes to criminal population increases as well)
  • Profile picture of the author GrowTutor
    "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time." -- Baretta (1975)

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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Originally Posted by GrowTutor View Post

      "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time." -- Baretta (1975)

      If the number of federal laws in this country are uncountable, and then you add in state and local laws. How do you know you haven't committed a crime in say the last week?
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      • Profile picture of the author socialentry
        Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

        If the number of federal laws in this country are uncountable, and then you add in state and local laws. How do you know you haven't committed a crime in say the last week?
        In las vegas, it is a crime to say Las vegas without appending "baby!" at the end.
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  • Profile picture of the author GrowTutor
    I know that I have but that doesn't make all laws, prosecutions or sentences wrong or bad nor does it make "private" prisons worse than inefficient, wasteful government ran institutions.
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Originally Posted by GrowTutor View Post

      I know that I have but that doesn't make all laws, prosecutions or sentences wrong or bad nor does it make "private" prisons worse than inefficient, wasteful government ran institutions.
      No it doesn't make all laws bad, just the majority of them
      Private or as they really are corporate prisons exist to make a profit.
      I'd rather have less laws and less prisons, then more of both.
      Most laws exist to assist in those "private" prisons making their profit.
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      • Profile picture of the author GrowTutor
        Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

        No it doesn't make all laws bad, just the majority of them
        Private or as they really are corporate prisons exist to make a profit.
        I'd rather have less laws and less prisons, then more of both.
        Most laws exist to assist in those "private" prisons making their profit.
        Well, somebody's tin-foil hat is tight enough. Most laws exist because big government always wants more control and and leftist governments always think they know better than those they "rule." It has nothing to do with those evil corporations that socialists hate.

        What's wrong with profit? Underpants gnomes love profit as do free market capitalists. If they find a need and fill it at a better price than their competition why is that bad? Even with their profit government ran prisons still waste more money.
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        • Profile picture of the author ThomM
          Originally Posted by GrowTutor View Post

          Well, somebody's tin-foil hat is tight enough. Most laws exist because big government always wants more control and and leftist governments always think they know better than those they "rule." It has nothing to do with those evil corporations that socialists hate.

          What's wrong with profit? Underpants gnomes love profit as do free market capitalists. If they find a need and fill it at a better price than their competition why is that bad? Even with their profit government ran prisons still waste more money.
          I don't wear a hat
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        • Profile picture of the author JonPKibble
          Originally Posted by GrowTutor View Post

          Well, somebody's tin-foil hat is tight enough. Most laws exist because big government always wants more control and and leftist governments always think they know better than those they "rule." It has nothing to do with those evil corporations that socialists hate.

          What's wrong with profit? Underpants gnomes love profit as do free market capitalists. If they find a need and fill it at a better price than their competition why is that bad? Even with their profit government ran prisons still waste more money.
          What's wrong with profit in this instance is conflict of interest.

          Profit isn't always bad. But when you mix public interest with private profits, bad things can happen. Case in point, health care. It's in an insurer's best interest to drop high-cost patients. This is why while private health care has its place, it cannot be the de facto form of health care for everyone---it will price out those who cannot afford it (sick patients) in the name of private profits.

          The public prison system may have its inefficiencies, but private prisons aren't god's gift to mankind by any means. When you provide a financial incentive to incarcerate as many people as possible, that is corruption at the highest level.

          Taxpayer money should be used to bring people up, not drag them down. (I'm sure many would even argue that taxpayer money shouldn't even be used at all, but that's another discussion for another day!) Our current prison system does not reduce crime, it creates criminals. Look at the number of people incarcerated for nonviolent offenses, and the re-admittance race. Follow the money!
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          • Profile picture of the author GrowTutor
            Originally Posted by JonPKibble View Post

            What's wrong with profit in this instance is conflict of interest.

            Profit isn't always bad. But when you mix public interest with private profits, bad things can happen. Case in point, health care. It's in an insurer's best interest to drop high-cost patients. This is why while private health care has its place, it cannot be the de facto form of health care for everyone---it will price out those who cannot afford it (sick patients) in the name of private profits.

            The public prison system may have its inefficiencies, but private prisons aren't god's gift to mankind by any means. When you provide a financial incentive to incarcerate as many people as possible, that is corruption at the highest level.

            Taxpayer money should be used to bring people up, not drag them down. (I'm sure many would even argue that taxpayer money shouldn't even be used at all, but that's another discussion for another day!) Our current prison system does not reduce crime, it creates criminals. Look at the number of people incarcerated for nonviolent offenses, and the re-admittance race. Follow the money!
            There is no conflict of interest.

            Actually, federal tax payer money should *only* be used to defend the country, facilitate legal trade with other nations and the minimal cost of actually doing those things...according to the Constitution anyway. States have more flexibility but that was supposed to enable competition (the basis of free market capitalism) so if you didn't like the tax and spend laws in one state you could move to another. A large intrusive federal government prevents that because there is no escape from over reaching government at that level.

            We have laws and we need prisons; if there are standards (and there are) of treatment then the lowest bidder should get the job instead of wasting money to prop up a large intrusive government and unions.
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        • Profile picture of the author HeySal
          Originally Posted by GrowTutor View Post

          Well, somebody's tin-foil hat is tight enough. Most laws exist because big government always wants more control and and leftist governments always think they know better than those they "rule." It has nothing to do with those evil corporations that socialists hate.

          What's wrong with profit? Underpants gnomes love profit as do free market capitalists. If they find a need and fill it at a better price than their competition why is that bad? Even with their profit government ran prisons still waste more money.

          20th century thinking. Catch up, wouldya? um......unless you're just trying to keep NSA off the trail of what you REALLY think.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kurt
          Originally Posted by GrowTutor View Post

          Well, somebody's tin-foil hat is tight enough. Most laws exist because big government always wants more control and and leftist governments always think they know better than those they "rule." It has nothing to do with those evil corporations that socialists hate.

          What's wrong with profit? Underpants gnomes love profit as do free market capitalists. If they find a need and fill it at a better price than their competition why is that bad? Even with their profit government ran prisons still waste more money.
          Originally Posted by GrowTutor View Post

          There is no conflict of interest.

          Actually, federal tax payer money should *only* be used to defend the country, facilitate legal trade with other nations and the minimal cost of actually doing those things...according to the Constitution anyway. States have more flexibility but that was supposed to enable competition (the basis of free market capitalism) so if you didn't like the tax and spend laws in one state you could move to another. A large intrusive federal government prevents that because there is no escape from over reaching government at that level.

          We have laws and we need prisons; if there are standards (and there are) of treatment then the lowest bidder should get the job instead of wasting money to prop up a large intrusive government and unions.

          Because in a free state, someone's profit shouldn't be dependant on someone else's freedom.

          You mean there is no conflict of interest you are aware of...

          For example, a prisoner comes up for parole. Will the "for profit" prison give a totally accurate report, knowing if the prisoner is paroled the prison will lose profit? A "for profit" prison has lots of motivation to keep people behind bars at the expense of justice. Sounds like a conflict of interest to me.
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          • Profile picture of the author GrowTutor
            Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

            Because in a free state, someone's profit shouldn't be dependant on someone else's freedom.

            You mean there is no conflict of interest you are aware of...

            For example, a prisoner comes up for parole. Will the "for profit" prison give a totally accurate report, knowing if the prisoner is paroled the prison will lose profit? A "for profit" prison has lots of motivation to keep people behind bars at the expense of justice. Sounds like a conflict of interest to me.
            That assumes a lot. That assumes that there isn't any oversight or appeals process. That assumes that such trickery couldn't/wouldn't be detected and that everyone would be willing to be in on it. Why would the corporation risk losing the contract by doing that when they could just fill the bed with another inmate or cut staff if the inmate populations drop. You can't assume that corporations are so cold and uncaring that they'd wrongly keep an inmate in jail and not cold and uncaring enough to lay-off some staff to keep the business running.

            Why can't it be, in your eyes, that they're a professional company just filling a need at a better price and getting paid for it like they should? The problem might not be corporations...it might be your unreasonable assumptions about capitalism and/or corporations in general.
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            • Profile picture of the author Kurt
              Originally Posted by GrowTutor View Post

              That assumes a lot. That assumes that there isn't any oversight or appeals process. That assumes that such trickery couldn't/wouldn't be detected and that everyone would be willing to be in on it. Why would the corporation risk losing the contract by doing that when they could just fill the bed with another inmate or cut staff if the inmate populations drop. You can't assume that corporations are so cold and uncaring that they'd wrongly keep an inmate in jail and not cold and uncaring enough to lay-off some staff to keep the business running.

              Why can't it be, in your eyes, that they're a professional company just filling a need at a better price and getting paid for it like they should? The problem might not be corporations...it might be your unreasonable assumptions about capitalism and/or corporations in general.
              Or we could do away with for profit prisons and be 100% sure and neither of us would have to assume anything. You're assuming that there needs to be a conspiracy. I assume it could also be a slight subconcious bias.

              If you read the link I posted above, you would have seen the Colorado is closing prisons and it is affecting for profit prisons. How will they react, knowing they could be out of business?

              The fact is, there's a conflict of interest, which you obviously deny.

              Nice spin though.
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      • Profile picture of the author Andra el
        the problem is in economy, i think
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  • Profile picture of the author Don Schenk
    Interesting. That article was from 6 years ago. I wonder whether or not the plant's permit was reissued.

    I noticed Javier Sierra's link to articles about this at the Sierra Club site go 404.

    It seem to me, ancient Rome encountered the same issue, because the aqueducts were lead lined. This eventually helped lead to the downfall of the Roman Empire.

    :-Don
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    • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
      [QUOTE=Don Schenk;8383755]Interesting. <snip>/QUOTE]

      I am a muck-raking archaeologist. Seriously, I was looking for something totally unrelated when I found it, then decided to dust it and restore it. It's missing parts -- might have to find them at old news warehouses.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Once they get done building your profile, the NSA will know if you EVER did one - and the possibility of being arrested on retro crimes (crimes that weren't illegal when you did them) is a real hazard.

    Back to the point, though - if you listen to people talk and examine their reasoning and linguistic patterns, you will find insanity is more common than sanity. This SHOULD be expected with so many poisons in our food and water that cross the brain/blood barrier. Then there are very high portions of our population now on psychological pharmaceuticals which have been proven to cause violent or suicidal tendencies.

    That all neglects the fact that right now so many things have been labeled crime, there's no way for crime to decrease. It's hard to get through a day without committing some offense that our gov now considers a crime, so crime is not likely to decrease unless everyone parks in front of a TV and does NOTHING. Violence also always rises in societies that are being taken under by fascist rule, and right now - that's the US.
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  • Profile picture of the author GrowTutor
    Not if my tin-foil hat is tight enough... :rolleyes:

    I'm not for more useless laws but I'm not against all laws, I'm not against life sentences for some crimes and I'm not against the death penalty for some crimes either...

    A civilized society needs to have some laws but not laws for everything.
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  • Profile picture of the author Andra el
    and the task of a goverment is to minimize the cryme, that's what i know.
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  • Profile picture of the author GrowTutor
    Or, we could do away with big government leeches and socialism in general since that fails so often. :rolleyes:

    The fact that they're closing makes my point not yours. If they were as corrupt as you insinuate they'd be using the "dirty tricks" to stay open but, no, they're closing like any reputable business does when they're not making money due to a lack of business.


    Nice try though...
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Number of posts that actually talk about lead paint creating more criminals? 1
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      • Profile picture of the author GrowTutor
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        Number of posts that actually talk about lead paint creating more criminals? 1
        Good catch but junk science is pretty easy to ignore. :p
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      • Profile picture of the author HeySal
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        Number of posts that actually talk about lead paint creating more criminals? 1
        You're right - so lets put another one in here.

        The fall of Rome is highly attributed to the aristocracy going crazy. See, they were pretty modern and the rich had running water piped into their homes. Um........problem is, that their pipes were made of lead. If you've ever talked to anyone with led poisoning, you can tell they are a little "off" somehow. So when in the US, do as the Romans? :rolleyes:


        Violent, though, isn't something I've ever seen attributed to lead. There are a lot of people on psychotropic drugs, though - and many of those warn right on the bottle (or the TV commercial, lol) that they might induce homicidal tendencies. So I'm not sure we should be surprised by a rise in violence.

        Other crimes such as stealing? That would probably be because of economics and the fact that kids aren't being taught right from wrong like they used to be.

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    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
      Originally Posted by GrowTutor View Post

      Or, we could do away with big government leeches and socialism in general since that fails so often. :rolleyes:
      Non-sequitur. And it has nothing to do with the conversation.


      The fact that they're closing makes my point not yours. If they were as corrupt as you insinuate they'd be using the "dirty tricks" to stay open but, no, they're closing like any reputable business does when they're not making money due to a lack of business.


      Nice try though...
      Another non-sequitur statement. Because prison occupancy is lower doesn't mean that prisons don't keep people longer than they should. Prisons only have input into how low a person stays, not how many are placed in prison in the first place.

      The lower prison occupancy rates could be due to better police work, Colorado's MJ laws and lower lead levels in the environment, while for-profit prisons still have a bias to try to keep fewer prisoners longer.

      And for a strawman fallacy, I never claimed how "corrupt" the prison system is. What you fail to accept is that I don't need to prove the system is corrupt, only that there is a conflict of interest, which you still deny.

      It is possible that the prisons are run by people worthy of sainthood that have over-come the conflict of interest, but that doesn't mean the conflict of interest doesn't exist.

      Another conflict of interest is for-profit prisons spending money on rehab and training. It is in a for-profit's interest not to pay for rehab, both short term and long term. While the gov can set standards for rehab, that would be "big gov intereference", wouldn't it?
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

    The more lead there is in any given environment, the greater the population of criminals:
    Life Sentence | elreporterosf.com

    (Yeah, I know, the taxpayer-funded "private" criminal incarceration business contributes to criminal population increases as well)
    Some can't admit it, but violent crime is going down in the US and other parts of the World and some experts claim it is due to lower lead levels.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Lead DOES lead to mental problems, and that WILL tend to shift things MORE to crime, but it isn't the only reason. And lead has been a known issue and has had groups trying to get id of it since the 70s. Some REALLY old low income properties MIGHT have lead, but it is likely harder to get to. BTW where lead is involved, the criminals did VERY POORLY in school, and started breaking the law before 9.

    As for crime dropping? WOW, I don't see it.

    And the constitution says the government should JAIL criminals, NOT educate them!

    To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;
    WOW! Here's an offense that is interesting!

    § 89. Right of selling

    We cannot apply the same reasoning to the right of selling such things as we want to part with. Every man and every nation being perfectly at liberty to buy a thing that is to be sold, or not to buy it, and to buy it of one rather than of another' The law of nature gives to no person whatsoever any kind of right to sell what belongs to him to another who does not wish to buy it; neither has any nation the right of selling her commodities or merchandise to a people who are unwilling to have them.
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
    Criminal Population Increases Linked To Lead Poisoning
    Probably has nothing to do with an overall growing population.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      Probably has nothing to do with an overall growing population.
      I find your statement to be......Pretty funny. It simply never occurred to me.
      There is probably more to it, but you're the first person to point it out.
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  • Profile picture of the author bravo75
    Latino and black gangs are the problem in the U.S, not lead.
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  • Profile picture of the author GrowTutor
    The *link* was about lead but the OP also talked about private prisons so all of the replies have been on-topic.


    Too much lead *is* bad for people (that's real science) but that's not like jumping the shark and claiming, based on small statistical samples, that more lead = more crime. Junk science is not real science...
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