213 {{ upvoteCount | shortNum }}
213 {{ upvoteCount | shortNum }}

fast food workers strike - again?

by Kay King
156 replies
  • OFF TOPIC
    • |
I talked to a man recently who owns 5 busy fast food restaurants. Asked him what he thought about the wave of strikes for $15/hr pay.

None of his workers have walked out in previous strikes but his feeling is this is totally union driven by people who have power in mind and not the good of workers. He had newer workers who asked what would happen if they participated in the strike and he told them if they walk off the job it's the same as a "no call, no show". Told them what they do in their free time is their business.

He said the only people who earn minimum wage at his food shops are those who have been working less than 3 months.

However, the interesting part was his statement of what he would do if this big raise comes to pass. He said he can automate many of his systems and reduce his work force by almost half if he needs to. He has one restaurant at break even in a rough area - and would close that one down. Said he would also raise his hiring standards and require HS diploma.
  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

    However, the interesting part was his statement of what he would do if this big raise comes to pass. He said he can automate many of his systems and reduce his work force by almost half if he needs to. He has one restaurant at break even in a rough area - and would close that one down. Said he would also raise his hiring standards and require HS diploma.
    YEP, JUST as predicted!

    HECK, there was recently a law passed to lower rates on a "product". Rules and fees that came with it:

    1. Lowered the definition of full time. It WAS 40, NOW, it is 30!
    2. Reduced many workers to just BELOW "full time"(29 hours), cutting their salaries.
    3. Got many layed off.
    4. Cut hiring, etc....

    Obviously, a lot of those people are hurting. And lets say minimum wage were $8. That means the average dropped from $320/month to $240/month! It ALSO means MORE people are looking for jobs, and there are more jobs out there. NOTE, the more jobs are because employment hours were cut 25%, and everyone is thus paid LESS.

    As for the product? One person recently said it was $100/m last year, $170/m this year, and will be $468/m next year.

    BTW if fast food workers get $15/hour, a ******LOT****** of people are going to demand raises! If they get them, people at MY level, including me, will HAVE to ask. At some point it will be "If we don't get the raise, the INDUSTRY will quit". *******INDUSTRY******* We aren't talking just unionized shops, or some union here, it would be the industry. I mean why work long hours, tight deadlines, etc.... to make a wage you can make flipping burgers?

    And what happens after all get the raises, negating the wage originally asked for? Here is a preview! The average minimum wage earner will get $22620/year! YEAH, I know! That seems LOW! Earlier, at HALF the rate, the pay would have been $15600/year. But the hours for full time changed. Anyway, $15,600 is over 4 TIMES what the average american was paid in my parents lifetime. HECK, if I were paid 30 years ago, what I am paid now, I would be on easy street.

    About the only thing getting cheaper is electronics. Have you noticed that even THAT has slowed down?

    BTW if rates at fast food places go up much more, I will cut it out of my diet. I already have, to a degree. So where will the extra money come from?

    Steve
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8451506].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author ThomM
    Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

    I talked to a man recently who owns 5 busy fast food restaurants. Asked him what he thought about the wave of strikes for $15/hr pay.

    None of his workers have walked out in previous strikes but his feeling is this is totally union driven by people who have power in mind and not the good of workers. He had newer workers who asked what would happen if they participated in the strike and he told them if they walk off the job it's the same as a "no call, no show". Told them what they do in their free time is their business.

    He said the only people who earn minimum wage at his food shops are those who have been working less than 3 months.

    However, the interesting part was his statement of what he would do if this big raise comes to pass. He said he can automate many of his systems and reduce his work force by almost half if he needs to. He has one restaurant at break even in a rough area - and would close that one down. Said he would also raise his hiring standards and require HS diploma.
    Goodbye Rude Waiters: World's First Automated Restaurant Opens In Germany - SPIEGEL ONLINE

    McDonald's to Replace Cashiers with Touch Screen Self-Checkout | InvestorPlace
    Signature

    Life: Nature's way of keeping meat fresh
    Getting old ain't for sissy's
    As you are I was, as I am you will be
    You can't fix stupid, but you can always out smart it.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8451986].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    I wonder what the real numbers are?

    Will fast food joints go bankrupt if they charge an extra 50 cents for a hamburger meal and pay their workers at least $12 per hour?

    Will customers be OK with paying a little more so that the workers could have a better wage?

    I hear the average age of a fast food worker is 28, not a teenager looking for extra after school work.
    Signature

    "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8452526].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Sarevok
    I'll probably get hatemail for saying this..

    But I support the fastfood employees on this one.

    Have you guys ever worked a dead end job that pays absolute CHUMP CHANGE, where the customers expect the world of you, even though you're basically a slave?

    What if that was you, or your mom who was literally forced to work these terrible jobs that pay nothing?

    I have enormous empathy for these people.

    I'm happy that they're standing up for their rights.

    Can you support a family making $7 an hour? No. Not around here at least.

    And please don't say "well get a new job". For some people it's not an option.

    Period.

    To no fault of their own; maybe they were too broke to afford college? Maybe the economy is so bad that their skillset doesn't warrant anything beyond a fast food industry profession?

    I say give the people the money they need to support their families.

    And if people have to pay $.75 more for a bigmac, and if the corporation has to reduce profits by some tiny margin in order to support the people who have to work these jobs.. I'm all in.
    Signature
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8452625].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Originally Posted by Sarevok View Post

      I'll probably get hatemail for saying this..

      But I support the fastfood employees on this one.

      Have you guys ever worked a dead end job that pays absolute CHUMP CHANGE, where the customers expect the world of you, even though you're basically a slave?

      What if that was you, or your mom who was literally forced to work these terrible jobs that pay nothing?

      I have enormous empathy for these people.

      I'm happy that they're standing up for their rights.

      Can you support a family making $7 an hour? No. Not around here at least.

      And please don't say "well get a new job". For some people it's not an option.

      Period.

      To no fault of their own; maybe they were too broke to afford college? Maybe the economy is so bad that their skillset doesn't warrant anything beyond a fast food industry profession?

      I say give the people the money they need to support their families.

      And if people have to pay $.75 more for a bigmac, and if the corporation has to reduce profits by some tiny margin in order to support the people who have to work these jobs.. I'm all in.
      One problem is you think the corporations will loose money because of a pay raise to employees and this is not actually true.
      McDonalds corporation doesn't own your neighborhood McDonalds, a franchise owner does. First he has to get the franchise this can cost them the following.
      For a Satellite McDonalds, the total is $172,425 to $627,050. For a McDonalds located at a gas station or convenience store, the total is $837,750 to $1.2 million. And the standard, new McDonalds restaurant clocks in with an investment total of $1 million to $1.9 million. Each of these include substantial amounts for working capital.
      Plus there are additional monthly fees based on gross sales.
      The McDonalds royalty fee (called a "service fee") is currently 4% of gross sales each month. In addition, a monthly base rent or percentage rent that is a percent of gross sales is also payable to McDonalds.
      McDonalds Franchise - Buying a McDonalds Franchise For Sale - McDonalds Profits, Sales, Earnings - McDonalds FDD

      Raising the pay of the workers because you don't think they make enough may in theory help the workers, but in this economy it won't take long before $15. an hour won't be enough to survive on. It certainly won't do anything to help the economy or create more jobs, which is what we really need.
      Signature

      Life: Nature's way of keeping meat fresh
      Getting old ain't for sissy's
      As you are I was, as I am you will be
      You can't fix stupid, but you can always out smart it.

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8452686].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Joe_Chuck
      Originally Posted by Sarevok View Post


      Have you guys ever worked a dead end job that pays absolute CHUMP CHANGE, where the customers expect the world of you, even though you're basically a slave?

      What if that was you, or your mom who was literally forced to work these terrible jobs that pay nothing?

      I have enormous empathy for these people.
      Yes, I have worked though jobs, most people have worked a crappy job.. So I got some skills to better myself and now I dont have to work those crappy jobs. And I do have some empathy, but it is not the employers fault there skills are limited. They are paid for what there skills are.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8453893].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
      Originally Posted by Sarevok View Post

      Have you guys ever worked a dead end job that pays absolute CHUMP CHANGE, where the customers expect the world of you, even though you're basically a slave?
      Yes, and I worked damn hard to get out of that situation. Harder than many seem willing to work. Perhaps that's why they stay stuck.


      Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

      Funny, I don't think I have ever seen a fast food worker who wasn't working hard.
      I have, lots of times. My oldest daughter is the manager of a fast food restaurant. She only has a high school diploma. She started at the bottom and worked her way up to be second in command after the owners, all in about two years time.

      I've seen the lack of work ethic at her restaurant first hand, and she's told her mother and I a few tales as well.

      The difference between her and the ones she started at the bottom with? Motivation and ambition. It takes much the same to get ahead today is it did in stronger economic times. The right attitude, the right work ethic, and a willingness to increase your value to the company that employs you.

      Originally Posted by RobinInTexas View Post

      Just because the teacher is underpaid and the dropout is underpaid is no reason ts screw them both. They both need to make a lot more. If you double the teacher's pay, they will have enough to retire on. If you double the pay of the fast food worker, they will get off food stamps, and stop living paycheck to paycheck, and they might buy a used car and pump some money into the economy.
      While I can appreciate your sentiments and sense of fair play (fair pay), in reality do you really think it would work as neat and tidy as you portray it? Some people will lose their job. Some businesses may go under. Prices will go up for the consumer. More businesses could go under because people won't pay the higher prices, and so more jobs are lost. Might that not be a vicious cycle that, in the end, hurts businesses, employees, and consumers?

      I think there is some truth to the old saying, "If it isn't good for business, it isn't good for the country." While there are obviously going to be cases where that won't hold true, and there are cases where the scale has tipped too far in favor of business, in general I think that saying has a lot of merit.
      Signature

      Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8454467].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
      Originally Posted by Sarevok View Post

      I'll probably get hatemail for saying this..

      Hopefully not hate but I will steer the conversation away from emotion and more towards facts, logic and reason.

      But I support the fastfood employees on this one.

      As opposed to supporting???

      Have you guys ever worked a dead end job that pays absolute CHUMP CHANGE, where the customers expect the world of you, even though you're basically a slave?

      Emotionally charged verbiage with little to do regarding the facts.

      What if that was you, or your mom who was literally forced to work these terrible jobs that pay nothing?

      I have. Mom did. Many here have.

      I have enormous empathy for these people.

      Non sequitar. Your emotional predisposition has little to do with the facts here.

      I'm happy that they're standing up for their rights.

      You imply a disparity where there is none!

      What specific rights have been violated?

      Can you support a family making $7 an hour? No. Not around here at least.

      Again non sequitar. "Supporting your family" is not the offer being made for these positions.

      And please don't say "well get a new job". For some people it's not an option.

      Do not confuse the unwillingness to get another job as the lack of options to get other jobs.

      Period.

      To no fault of their own; maybe they were too broke to afford college? Maybe the economy is so bad that their skillset doesn't warrant anything beyond a fast food industry profession?

      I say give the people the money they need to support their families.

      What you are actually saying is "Have the government force businesses to pay an unreasonable amount of money to an individual because you FEEL like they SHOULD receive it."

      And if people have to pay $.75 more for a bigmac, and if the corporation has to reduce profits by some tiny margin in order to support the people who have to work these jobs.. I'm all in.

      "have to pay", "has to reduce profits". Seems like a lot of government mandating in your world.
      Just thought I'd clear up some ambiguity here.

      Joe Mobley
      Signature

      .

      Follow Me on Twitter: @daVinciJoe
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8456092].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
    Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

    I talked to a man recently who owns 5 busy fast food restaurants. Asked him what he thought about the wave of strikes for $15/hr pay.

    None of his workers have walked out in previous strikes but his feeling is this is totally union driven by people who have power in mind and not the good of workers. He had newer workers who asked what would happen if they participated in the strike and he told them if they walk off the job it's the same as a "no call, no show". Told them what they do in their free time is their business.

    He said the only people who earn minimum wage at his food shops are those who have been working less than 3 months.

    However, the interesting part was his statement of what he would do if this big raise comes to pass. He said he can automate many of his systems and reduce his work force by almost half if he needs to. He has one restaurant at break even in a rough area - and would close that one down. Said he would also raise his hiring standards and require HS diploma.
    Most of my friends own businesses. Most have employees.

    The $15 starting wage is nonsense. Another thing for us to rant about. I will be extremely surprised if somehow it becomes law. And if it doesn't become law..it's just barking.

    I have a friend that owned a furniture store. His delivery men were union. They demanded a raise (already getting a very generous wage).

    He said "Go on strike and I'll close the store". They did. He did. End of problem. So I guess they ...um...won.

    Here's the problem with demanding a $15 an hour wage. Other people are willing to work for far less. And minimum wage really is usually just an entry level wage.

    Is it enough to live on? Nope. I sure wouldn't work for minimum wage.

    But some will.

    Here's a question. Would you double the minimum wage if it meant half as many jobs in fast food? The people working would make more money...but the other half would be out off a job.

    And do we have the right to tell a business owner how much to pay their help? Personally, I would never offer an employee close to minimum wage. I have three employees. Two get $25 an hour. One gets $16 an hour (with a bump coming soon). But these are highly skilled workers.

    If you're hiring basically a commodity worker (meaning just about anyone can do it), you'll pay the least amount you can. And then you'll pay more to keep the workers that show promise.

    But almost no employer is in business to create jobs. Almost no employer starts a business for the benefit of the employees. Employees are selling their time to the employer. The employer will pay as much as he has to until it is no longer profitable.

    And I have to tell you, I've had dozens of low paid workers. An I paid them a tad above minimum wage. They would quickly earn more if they showed that they were worth it.

    But coming into my office and saying "I need more money because I can't live on what you pay me" would always get a compassionate.. "Then you should look for a job that pays you more".

    And demanding more money, without deserving more money? I laugh at the thought.
    Signature
    One Call Closing book https://www.amazon.com/One-Call-Clos...=1527788418&sr

    What if they're not stars? What if they are holes poked in the top of a container so we can breath?
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8452719].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Sarevok
    In my opinion, the standard of living raises universally when minimum wage meets the standard of society.

    At this point, the minimum wage is below the standard of society.

    So what's the solution for people with inadequate skillsets who need to feed themselves?

    "Screw them" ?

    "Let them suffer" ?

    The truth is, I think it's difficult to calculate how an increased rate of pay would effect the Cost of Goods Sold.

    I'm confident, based upon my limited understanding of economics, that the price hike as represented would not be as significant as portrayed.

    I also concur that as a business owner it's a ridiculous notion to dictate what to pay employees. But, I'm fighting for the people here.

    Nevertheless..

    I think rising the price of a bigmac wouldn't have that much of an economic impact as people believe.

    I understand the notion that increasing minimum wage would have a universal impact on workforce; other organizations would be forced to compete with fastfood accommodations.

    However, and to play devil's advocate... The greatest change would be among the highest income percentile; the 95th percentile.

    (In the 1950's, unskilled labor (assembly workers) were paid LIVABLE wages resulting in an income gap that was balanced and economically practical).

    The fact is.. The cost of living has increased significantly over the last few decades.. And minimum wage has remained embarrassingly inadequate, to the point where humans cannot sustain themselves on such a pitiful wage. This has resulted in the stagnation of the lowest income percentile, which is in my opinion quite shameful.

    Simultaneously, the top 5% are earning unfathomable quantities of money.

    I'm not sure what the answer is. But the answer isn't to prolong the inadequacies of economic equality.

    Resources aren't scarce.

    But distribution is.

    (No. I'm not a socialist. But, don't you feel for the people trying to make it.. But can't?)

    Give them a chance.

    Give them an extra $.5 for your bigmac.

    PS: I realize my opinions won't be popular among such a respected assemblage of entrepreneurs and business owners.

    But I'm the people's champion.

    Just my $.02
    Signature
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8452797].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
      I honestly don't know what the solution is.

      Having said that, new hirees at the big three hire in at 15 to 16 dollars per hour when it used to be approximately 20 to 22 dollars per hour, at least here in Michigan, anyway.

      In all honesty, I can't see a fast food worker making the same pay as auto makers do. I just don't see it happening.

      That doesn't make our pay scales right at all, but we are so messed up economically, I don't know if we'll ever rebound.

      Terra
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8452868].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by Sarevok View Post

      In my opinion, the standard of living raises universally when minimum wage meets the standard of society.

      At this point, the minimum wage is below the standard of society.

      So what's the solution for people with inadequate skillsets who need to feed themselves?

      "Screw them" ?

      "Let them suffer" ?

      Give them an extra $.5 for your bigmac.

      PS: I realize my opinions won't be popular among such a respected assemblage of entrepreneurs and business owners.

      But I'm the people's champion.

      Just my $.02
      Sarevok;8452797; First. I agree with everything you said in your post. Didn't expect that, did you?

      Personally, I lean a little to the left on most social issues. And the idea of "Screw them" has never occurred to me when thinking about employees. In fact, I've never met a business owner that looked down on their employees. I'm sure they are out there...but I've never met one.

      Many employees have gone on to become friends, and...I consider it a matter of principle that no employee ever thought I "screwed them". Never.

      And if the minimum wage goes up..we'll all adjust, like always.

      $15 is silly. But maybe $10 isn't. And at $10 a hour a Big Mac will be another 25 cents or so. Maybe less. We could all adjust.

      And I don't know a single employer that likes the idea of an employee not making enough to live on. But ....

      It's a matter of supply and demand. If someone competent is willing to work for a starting wage of $8 an hour....and you hire lots of entry level employees, you aren't going to offer more unless it's the law (or it's your worthless brother-in-law who you have to hire as the "assistant manager")

      When jobs are advertised, the wage isn't hidden. Nobody gets a job...and then asks what the wage is. If you agree to work for that wage, then you can't complain when that's what you get paid.

      Me? I want everyone to make plenty of money.
      And you know what? 120 years ago, 90% of the people in this country were self employed. Only 10% were an employee.

      So, start a business. hire people and pay them what you feel is fair.
      Or train people to start their own business.

      See? Now nobody needs a "job". We all create our own job. I did. And I never graduated high school. And I'm a jerk! Do you know how hard it is to be a jerk, and start a business? :rolleyes:

      Not that hard, apparently.

      Anyway, you are "for the people". Well, I've never met anyone that was "Against the people". Again, I wouldn't mind paying an extra 25 cents for a Big Mac. But I'm not everyone.

      See? I'm not so evil after all.:rolleyes:


      Added a little later; You said "Simultaneously, the top 5% are earning unfathomable quantities of money. I'm not sure what the answer is. But the answer isn't to prolong the inadequacies of economic equality."

      Yup, 95% of the wealth is owned at the top. So now that we know that. We can either complain until the richest people give us more soup...or we can start climbing.



      This next bit is all true.
      When I was 18 or 19, I remember driving with a friend through a beautiful residential area. The homes were mansions to me then. My friend was angry that these people were so "lucky" and that it all was so unfair....

      Me? I said; "I wonder what these people know, that I don't?"

      And that became a study. Now, my (used to be) friend is living in a one bedroom apartment, thinking of where his next month's rent is coming from. Never planning for the future, never trying to better himself. Still thinking like he did when he was 19 years old.

      He came to visit me at my retail store a few months ago. After I bought him lunch, and gave him gas money to get home. He said "Claude, man...you've changed a lot!" He didn't mean it in a good way. I smiled and said "You haven't". And I didn't mean it in a good way either. But he took it to mean that he was still the same at 51 years old as he was as a young man. Plus, he had a full tank of gas, a full stomach, and $50 I gave him. The fact that it was charity didn't bother him. He left smiling.

      He and I were both from poor families. Both of us started with nothing but a little debt.
      I cried a little after he left, because we used to be good friends, and there was nothing I could do to convince him to make his life better.
      Signature
      One Call Closing book https://www.amazon.com/One-Call-Clos...=1527788418&sr

      What if they're not stars? What if they are holes poked in the top of a container so we can breath?
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8452885].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Originally Posted by Sarevok View Post

      In my opinion, the standard of living raises universally when minimum wage meets the standard of society.

      At this point, the minimum wage is below the standard of society.

      So what's the solution for people with inadequate skillsets who need to feed themselves?

      "Screw them" ?

      "Let them suffer" ?

      The truth is, I think it's difficult to calculate how an increased rate of pay would effect the Cost of Goods Sold.

      I'm confident, based upon my limited understanding of economics, that the price hike as represented would not be as significant as portrayed.

      I also concur that as a business owner it's a ridiculous notion to dictate what to pay employees. But, I'm fighting for the people here.

      Nevertheless..

      I think rising the price of a bigmac wouldn't have that much of an economic impact as people believe.

      I understand the notion that increasing minimum wage would have a universal impact on workforce; other organizations would be forced to compete with fastfood accommodations.

      However, and to play devil's advocate... The greatest change would be among the highest income percentile; the 95th percentile.

      (In the 1950's, unskilled labor (assembly workers) were paid LIVABLE wages resulting in an income gap that was balanced and economically practical).

      The fact is.. The cost of living has increased significantly over the last few decades.. And minimum wage has remained embarrassingly inadequate, to the point where humans cannot sustain themselves on such a pitiful wage. This has resulted in the stagnation of the lowest income percentile, which is in my opinion quite shameful.

      Simultaneously, the top 5% are earning unfathomable quantities of money.

      I'm not sure what the answer is. But the answer isn't to prolong the inadequacies of economic equality.

      Resources aren't scarce.

      But distribution is.

      (No. I'm not a socialist. But, don't you feel for the people trying to make it.. But can't?)

      Give them a chance.

      Give them an extra $.5 for your bigmac.

      PS: I realize my opinions won't be popular among such a respected assemblage of entrepreneurs and business owners.

      But I'm the people's champion.

      Just my $.02
      Aren't the business owners people too?
      They are there for the same reason their employees are there, to make money. If they are forced to pay their employees more without regard for weather or not their business can afford it, they will cut jobs to stay in business.
      How can you compare the 50's when we had a booming economy and low inflation to today?
      You also fail to realize raising the min. wage still won't equate to a livable income.
      Signature

      Life: Nature's way of keeping meat fresh
      Getting old ain't for sissy's
      As you are I was, as I am you will be
      You can't fix stupid, but you can always out smart it.

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8452894].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Sarevok
        Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

        Aren't the business owners people too?
        They are there for the same reason their employees are there, to make money. If they are forced to pay their employees more without regard for weather or not their business can afford it, they will cut jobs to stay in business.
        How can you compare the 50's when we had a booming economy and low inflation to today?
        You also fail to realize raising the min. wage still won't equate to a livable income.
        I still believe that tightening the margin between income brackets would benefit the majority.
        Signature
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8452930].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author ThomM
          Originally Posted by Sarevok View Post

          I still believe that tightening the margin between income brackets would benefit the majority.
          Yeah except forcing small business owners to increase their expenses isn't how you do it.
          I've already given plenty of reasons (as have others) why that won't work, starting with the two links in my first post.
          Signature

          Life: Nature's way of keeping meat fresh
          Getting old ain't for sissy's
          As you are I was, as I am you will be
          You can't fix stupid, but you can always out smart it.

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8452948].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by Sarevok View Post

          I still believe that tightening the margin between income brackets would benefit the majority.
          I think every thinking person believes that. I don't want anyone to make less money than I do. but the way to make it more even is to make the majority want to get ahead ...have more ambition.

          The way isn't to ask the people who earn huge incomes to give some of it away.

          Did you know that it isn't against the law to actually earn more money, by providing our society more service, or better goods? Everyone is allowed to do that.

          No law prevents someone from getting ahead.
          Signature
          One Call Closing book https://www.amazon.com/One-Call-Clos...=1527788418&sr

          What if they're not stars? What if they are holes poked in the top of a container so we can breath?
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8453013].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            ... the way to make it more even is to make the majority want to get ahead ...have more ambition.

            The way isn't to ask the people who earn huge incomes to give some of it away.

            Did you know that it isn't against the law to actually earn more money, by providing our society more service, or better goods? Everyone is allowed to do that.

            No law prevents someone from getting ahead.
            EXACTLY!!!!!!!

            Steve
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8453019].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    $15 an hour for a position that a monkey could handle is ridiculous. Plain and simple. When you consider that a lot of jobs that take certificates, specialized training, and/or college degrees start at that or even lower, why should someone flipping a hamburger or stuffing it in a bag get so much money? Yes it's hard to live on minimum wage, but our economy isn't set up to handle making people who have not done anything to improve their circumstances better off than those who have sweated blood to do so.

    "Couldn't" get an education, up until recently was a matter of choice and nothing else. "Oh, I had kids to raise and couldn't get the time" -- your choice was to have kids. Come on - every day there are kids that were raised in abject poverty graduating with degrees. If people want socialism, where the Scientist earns the same as the fast food worker -- there are a LOT of countries that support that one. So move. We need to go back to the free market and let it work as it's supposed to. That would really straighten out who has the drive and who just wants to milk the system.
    Signature

    Sal
    When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
    Beyond the Path

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8452856].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author garyv
    In my opinion, the free market should determine the wages. If a person doesn't want those low wages, then why in the world did they apply for that job? If enough people stopped applying for those jobs, then the wages would go up. But people won't stop applying for those jobs, because just about anyone can do them. It's meant to be an entry level job - and you're not supposed to stay at the minimum wage job for life. It's supposed to be the bottom rung on the job ladder. With Obamacare and a $15 minimum wage, we're turning the bottom rung into a hammock. Now the kid packing the happy meal, will make more than the entire factory that put together the happy-meal's toy.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8452909].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
      Originally Posted by garyv View Post

      ... we're turning the bottom rung into a hammock.
      Funny, I don't think I have ever seen a fast food worker who wasn't working hard. Sure, you don't have to be a genius to work as a cashier, but it's hardly comparable to laying in a hammock.

      I'm pretty sick of people taking shots on the working poor in this country. These are people who are trying to make ends meet. You don't know their whole story. We're talking about hundreds of thousands of lives. Millions actually. To lump them altogether as people without ambition, without a work ethic, without motivation is just plain arrogant and way off the mark.
      Signature
      Over 50 Dating
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8453369].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

        Funny, I don't think I have ever seen a fast food worker who wasn't working hard. Sure, you don't have to be a genius to work as a cashier, but it's hardly comparable to laying in a hammock.

        I'm pretty sick of people taking shots on the working poor in this country. These are people who are trying to make ends meet. You don't know their whole story. We're talking about hundreds of thousands of lives. Millions actually. To lump them altogether as people without ambition, without a work ethic, without motivation is just plain arrogant and way off the mark.
        I've spoken to people that TOLD me they weren't working. I have seen WEBSITES from them talking about their experiences. Remember those that did OBSCENE things, and put it on youtube and ended up ON THE NEWS!?!?!?? Are they ALL like that? NOPE! Are MOST? Likely NOT! But some ARE! It is a FACT! SORRY! And if they all go on strike like this they SHOULD be lumped together.

        Steve
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8453671].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author garyv
        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

        Funny, I don't think I have ever seen a fast food worker who wasn't working hard. Sure, you don't have to be a genius to work as a cashier, but it's hardly comparable to laying in a hammock.

        I'm pretty sick of people taking shots on the working poor in this country. These are people who are trying to make ends meet. You don't know their whole story. We're talking about hundreds of thousands of lives. Millions actually. To lump them altogether as people without ambition, without a work ethic, without motivation is just plain arrogant and way off the mark.

        Dude, it was a metaphor - ever hear of it? And when I say laying in a hammock, that means there's no motivation for them to leave. The point is, those jobs are not supposed to be easy, you're supposed to strive to work your way up. I've worked fast food. It's not like relaxing at home, but it's not that hard either. And the only reason a person would stay in a minimum wage job is because they don't have the proper motivation to move on. Raising the minimum wage is just another way for the unmotivated to take from those with motivation. And there's not ONE person in this country (who's not handicapped) that couldn't better their situation with the proper motivation.

        This isn't a "rich vs poor" thing like you'd like to make it out to be. It's a lazy vs motivated thing. I grew up in the worst neighborhoods with a melting-pot of minorities - and those that were motivated always rose above the rest.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8453779].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
          So you worked at a fast food place and were motivated to move on. Then why do you think that others aren't motivated? Why do you assume these fast food workers are not trying to improve their situation and work their way up also? You think getting a raise will keep them in their current job for the rest of their lives? I don't think you really believe that, so I don't really understand where you are coming from dude.

          Originally Posted by garyv View Post

          Dude, it was a metaphor - ever hear of it? And when I say laying in a hammock, that means there's no motivation for them to leave. The point is, those jobs are not supposed to be easy, you're supposed to strive to work your way up. I've worked fast food. It's not like relaxing at home, but it's not that hard either. And the only reason a person would stay in a minimum wage job is because they don't have the proper motivation to move on. Raising the minimum wage is just another way for the unmotivated to take from those with motivation. And there's not ONE person in this country (who's not handicapped) that couldn't better their situation with the proper motivation.

          This isn't a "rich vs poor" thing like you'd like to make it out to be. It's a lazy vs motivated thing. I grew up in the worst neighborhoods with a melting-pot of minorities - and those that were motivated always rose above the rest.
          Signature
          Over 50 Dating
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8453816].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author garyv
            Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

            So you worked at a fast food place and were motivated to move on. Then why do you think that others aren't motivated? Why do you assume these fast food workers are not trying to improve their situation and work their way up also? You think getting a raise will keep them in their current job for the rest of their lives? I don't think you really believe that, so I don't really understand where you are coming from dude.
            Well doubling their pay is not going to motivate them to move on that's for sure.

            And I never said that others aren't motivated. In fact I don't know a single person that has worked fast food that has been stuck at minimum wage like you suggest. The only people I know that have stuck around the fast food place for more than a year all became managers or assistant managers. If you're stuck at minimum wage, then chances are much more likely that the problem is you and not the boss. Those that want to move on or up can, there's no law against it.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8453840].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author bluecoyotemedia
        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

        Funny, I don't think I have ever seen a fast food worker who wasn't working hard. Sure, you don't have to be a genius to work as a cashier, but it's hardly comparable to laying in a hammock.

        I'm pretty sick of people taking shots on the working poor in this country. These are people who are trying to make ends meet. You don't know their whole story. We're talking about hundreds of thousands of lives. Millions actually. To lump them altogether as people without ambition, without a work ethic, without motivation is just plain arrogant and way off the mark.
        This is exactly why i love AUTOMATION
        Signature

        Skunkworks: noun. informal.

        A clandestine group operating without any external intervention or oversight. Such groups achieve significant breakthroughs rarely discussed in public because they operate "outside the box".
        https://short-stuff.com/-Mjk0fDExOA==

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8455430].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Here's something! based on the OLD calculations of wages, based on a 40 hour week, the CURRENT indiana teacher, $35000, starts at 16.83/hour. Even at the 2040 hours average, it is 17.16 With a masters, at 2040, it is LESS than $19.61.

    GRATED, they get perks, and the year is shorter, and they get a pension and all, but it makes you think!

    A school dropout that never had a HOPE of graduating wants to make almost as much as a teacher with a bachelors degree.

    Steve
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8453016].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author RobinInTexas
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      Here's something! based on the OLD calculations of wages, based on a 40 hour week, the CURRENT indiana teacher, $35000, starts at 16.83/hour. Even at the 2040 hours average, it is 17.16 With a masters, at 2040, it is LESS than $19.61.

      GRATED, they get perks, and the year is shorter, and they get a pension and all, but it makes you think!

      A school dropout that never had a HOPE of graduating wants to make almost as much as a teacher with a bachelors degree.

      Steve
      Just because the teacher is underpaid and the dropout is underpaid is no reason ts screw them both. They both need to make a lot more. If you double the teacher's pay, they will have enough to retire on. If you double the pay of the fast food worker, they will get off food stamps, and stop living paycheck to paycheck, and they might buy a used car and pump some money into the economy.
      Signature

      Robin



      ...Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just set there.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8453455].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
        Exactly! Great points. I was going to say something similar about comparing teachers salary with fast food workers but you said it better than I would have.

        Originally Posted by RobinInTexas View Post

        [b]Just because the teacher is underpaid and the dropout is underpaid is no reason ts screw them both. They both need to make a lot more. If you double the teacher's pay, they will have enough to retire on. If you double the pay of the fast food worker, they will get off food stamps, and stop living paycheck to paycheck, and they might buy a used car and pump some money into the economy.
        Signature
        Over 50 Dating
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8453619].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author garyv
        Originally Posted by RobinInTexas View Post

        Just because the teacher is underpaid and the dropout is underpaid is no reason ts screw them both. They both need to make a lot more. If you double the teacher's pay, they will have enough to retire on. If you double the pay of the fast food worker, they will get off food stamps, and stop living paycheck to paycheck, and they might buy a used car and pump some money into the economy.
        Or the fast food worker can do like the rest of us did, save their money, and work harder to move up in the company where their at until they make enough to move on. There's not a business owner that's worth his salt that wouldn't promote a hardworking motivated employee. You let the marketplace take care of it.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8453795].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Kurt
          Originally Posted by garyv View Post

          Or the fast food worker can do like the rest of us did, save their money, and work harder to move up in the company where their at until they make enough to move on. There's not a business owner that's worth his salt that wouldn't promote a hardworking motivated employee. You let the marketplace take care of it.
          This issue isn't about "working your way up". It's about paying people a fair wage for a fair day's work.
          Signature
          Discover the fastest and easiest ways to create your own valuable products.
          Tons of FREE Public Domain content you can use to make your own content, PLR, digital and POD products.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8453870].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author garyv
            Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

            This issue isn't about "working your way up". It's about paying people a fair wage for a fair day's work.
            I can sympathize with that, but minimum wage fast food jobs aren't supposed to be lifetime jobs that you raise your family with. There are jobs that are cheap because the type of business dictates that the product be cheap. If your double the wages, then you may as well just close down the business because the overhead costs are now going to make the prices too high for the normal fast-food patron. So the choices become either keep the wages low, or have a smaller workforce. So either low pay - or no pay.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8453906].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Kurt
              Originally Posted by garyv View Post

              I can sympathize with that, but minimum wage fast food jobs aren't supposed to be lifetime jobs that you raise your family with. There are jobs that are cheap because the type of business dictates that the product be cheap. If your double the wages, then you may as well just close down the business because the overhead costs are now going to make the prices too high for the normal fast-food patron. So the choices become either keep the wages low, or have a smaller workforce. So either low pay - or no pay.

              What they are "supposed to be" is irrelevant.

              And if you recall my earlier post, I said $15 was probably too high, remember? I also pointed out it was probably a starting point for negotiation. IMO, $10 sounds about right, considering how profitable the fast food industry has been.

              Maybe the real problem is corp pay/franchise fees are too high?
              Signature
              Discover the fastest and easiest ways to create your own valuable products.
              Tons of FREE Public Domain content you can use to make your own content, PLR, digital and POD products.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8453927].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                What they are "supposed to be" is irrelevant.

                And if you recall my earlier post, I said $15 was probably too high, remember? I also pointed out it was probably a starting point for negotiation. IMO, $10 sounds about right, considering how profitable the fast food industry has been.

                Maybe the real problem is corp pay/franchise fees are too high?
                I've been debating getting involved in this thread, but something about this post made up my mind.

                Professionally, I'm a commercial credit risk analyst for an economic development company. A decent amount of companies I review are restaurants, including fast foods joints.

                I can tell you right now profit margins for a typical fast food restaurant run in the 5-8% range. A good performer would be in the 10% area. Increasing commodity prices and pricing wars have put serious pressure on margins over the last 6 or 7 years.

                In short, they don't throw off a ton of cash. Doubling payroll isn't going to bode well for the unskilled worker or for the customer. You'll see higher prices and/or worse (think about that for a minute) customer service due to smaller crew sizes. You might get a higher caliber of worker, but there's only so much work you can get out of anybody during rush periods.

                As far as corporate pay and franchise fees go, franchise owners put up the risk, so they should get the reward. Franchise fees are what they are. The franchisee signed the franchise agreement. Nobody forced their hand -- jut like nobody forced the employee to take the job.
                Signature

                Raising a child is akin to knowing you're getting fired in 18 years and having to train your replacement without actively sabotaging them.

                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8454004].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                  Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post


                  In short, they don't throw off a ton of cash. Doubling payroll isn't going to bode well for the unskilled worker or for the customer. You'll see higher prices and/or worse (think about that for a minute) customer service due to smaller crew sizes. You might get a higher caliber of worker, but there's only so much work you can get out of anybody during rush periods.
                  For the THIRD time, I said I disagreed with DOUBLING their pay.

                  Plus, tell it to Costco or Trader Vics.

                  As far as corporate pay and franchise fees go, franchise owners put up the risk, so they should get the reward. Franchise fees are what they are. The franchisee signed the franchise agreement. Nobody forced their hand -- jut like nobody forced the employee to take the job.
                  The problem with this theory is, the fast food industry has made tons of money, even during the recession. Using history, we know that the risk has been removed for that period of time, it's the benefit of hindsight.

                  Since fast food is the leading industry that pays minimum wage and has been very profitable, they should reward the workers that helped them make all that money.

                  To remove the risk in the future, fast food could offer perfomance bonuses that would pay workers when certain sales goals were met, which would reduce risk. Or, give them minimum wage plus a small commision. Removing risk while rewarding perfomance is only a matter of 60 seconds of creative thinking.
                  Signature
                  Discover the fastest and easiest ways to create your own valuable products.
                  Tons of FREE Public Domain content you can use to make your own content, PLR, digital and POD products.
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8455009].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author garyv
                    Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                    For the THIRD time, I said I disagreed with DOUBLING their pay.

                    Plus, tell it to Costco or Trader Vics.
                    Those are not fast-food restaurants. The point of a fast-food restaurant is that you can get your food fast and cheap. If you slow down the service or raise the prices, then you've just moved into a different niche with a different consumer. - You're talking about having a company change it's niche just to suit the worker. It doesn't work that way.
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8455226].message }}
                    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                      Originally Posted by garyv View Post

                      Those are not fast-food restaurants. The point of a fast-food restaurant is that you can get your food fast and cheap. If you slow down the service or raise the prices, then you've just moved into a different niche with a different consumer. - You're talking about having a company change it's niche just to suit the worker. It doesn't work that way.
                      The comparision isn't to fast food, it's to another industry that traditionally als pays low wages, which is retail, and how two retail companies pay way more and are also more profitable than their avereage competitors.

                      Can you show me an example of a fast food company doing something similar that failed?

                      Plus, the point of both Costco and Trader Vics is to get stuff cheap along with good service. I'm guessing you've never heard of 2 Buck Chuck?

                      Another example, Steve Wynn is the most successful casino developer in Las Vegas history. When Wynn built the Mirage, Cocomos was the most exclusive restaurant in the resort. However, Wynn actually spent MORE money on the employee cafeteria than he did on Cocomos. Wynn understands the concept of "internal marketing". It's amazing how few people on a marketing forum seem to grasp the concept.
                      Signature
                      Discover the fastest and easiest ways to create your own valuable products.
                      Tons of FREE Public Domain content you can use to make your own content, PLR, digital and POD products.
                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8455238].message }}
                      • Profile picture of the author garyv
                        Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                        The comparision isn't to fast food, it's to another industry that traditionally als pays low wages, which is retail, and how two retail companies pay way more and are also more profitable than their avereage competitors.

                        Can you show me an example of a fast food company doing something similar that failed?

                        Plus, the point of both Costco and Trader Vics is to get stuff cheap along with good service. I'm guessing you've never heard of 2 Buck Chuck?

                        Another example, Steve Wynn is the most successful casino developer in Las Vegas history. When Wynn built the Mirage, Cocomos was the most exclusive restaurant in the resort. However, Wynn actually spent MORE money on the employee cafeteria than he did on Cocomos. Wynn understands the concept of "internal marketing". It's amazing how few people on a marketing forum seem to grasp the concept.

                        Again - different niche completely - You're not grasping that price point is a part of the fast food niche.
                        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8455261].message }}
                        • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                          Originally Posted by garyv View Post

                          Again - different niche completely - You're not grasping that price point is a part of the fast food niche.
                          Gary, I explained to you that MY example wasn't related to fast food. Sorry you can't understand, even though I explained it to you.

                          I asked you for a specific example to back up your point about any fast food restaurant paying more and failing. I see you have nothing to back up your opinion.

                          Another example, Henry Ford paid his workers far more than another other auto makers at the time, and he also made more profit.

                          Maybe there's more factors than simply worker wages to making money? How about good management? Maybe management should do a better job at marketing their businesses?

                          Was it the bakers for Hostess that caused them to go out of business, or was it management's inability to keep up with the changing times and more competition?

                          If McD's starts to stuggle in the new future, is it because of employee wages or because of the crap that McD's puts in their food that's now becoming public?
                          Signature
                          Discover the fastest and easiest ways to create your own valuable products.
                          Tons of FREE Public Domain content you can use to make your own content, PLR, digital and POD products.
                          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8455283].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author garyv
                    Originally Posted by Kurt View Post




                    The problem with this theory is, the fast food industry has made tons of money, even during the recession.
                    Places like McDonalds appear to make larger profits than they actually do, only because they are an enormous company. For instance, last year McDonalds made over 5 billion in profits. However, when you split that amongst the 34,000 stores world wide, that only comes to less than $150,000 in profit per store. - And that doesn't take into consideration the nearly quarter of a million people that actually own stock in McDonalds.
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8455257].message }}
                    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                      Originally Posted by garyv View Post

                      Places like McDonalds appear to make larger profits than they actually do, only because they are an enormous company. For instance, last year McDonalds made over 5 billion in profits. However, when you split that amongst the 34,000 stores world wide, that only comes to less than $150,000 in profit per store. - And that doesn't take into consideration the nearly quarter of a million people that actually own stock in McDonalds.
                      Already been posted.

                      Raise the price of a Happy Meal 25 cents to take care of the workers.
                      Signature
                      Discover the fastest and easiest ways to create your own valuable products.
                      Tons of FREE Public Domain content you can use to make your own content, PLR, digital and POD products.
                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8455266].message }}
                      • Profile picture of the author garyv
                        Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                        Already been posted.

                        Raise the price of a Happy Meal 25 cents to take care of the workers.
                        The market always equalizes itself when you do that. You raise the happy meal 25 cents, and then there are a few families that will no longer be able to afford them. It may not be many, but it will be enough that their missed patronage will take away the money you've made charging 25 cents more.

                        Don't you think that these companies spend a lot of time and computer hardware to get these price points just right? It's never as easy as just raising the price.
                        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8455354].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                    Originally Posted by Midnight Oil View Post

                    Income Statement for "Average" U.S. McDonald's Franchisee
                    http://www.burgerbusiness.com/wp-con...Janney_McD.jpg

                    Net Sales = $2,700,000 per month
                    Crew Payroll = $540,000 per month
                    Store Profit = $153,900 per month

                    $540,000 Crew Payroll / $7.25 minimum wage = 74,483 labor hours per month

                    ==============================

                    74,483 labor hours x $10 minimum wage = $744,830 Crew Payroll (an increase of $204,830 per month).

                    Restaurant is now losing $50,930 per month

                    Restaurant would have to raise prices 7.59% across the board to maintain $153,900 monthly profit

                    ==============================

                    74,483 labor hours x $15 minimum wage = $1,117,245 Crew Payroll (an increase of $577,245 per month).

                    Restaurant is now losing $423,345 per month

                    Restaurant would have to raise prices 21.38% across the board to maintain $153,900 monthly profit

                    ==============================

                    And Obamacare hasn't even kicked in yet . . .
                    This is good information, but that's an annual statement, not a monthly statement. That's a key thing to think about.

                    Anyone who's looking at that statement and thinking, "hey, they're profiting $150,000 a year! They can pay more!" doesn't realize that income statements don't reflect principal payments on debt. They only reflect the interest portion of debt payments. Much of that $150,000 can be (and usually is) eaten up by real estate and equipment debt payments.

                    Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                    For the THIRD time, I said I disagreed with DOUBLING their pay.

                    Plus, tell it to Costco or Trader Vics.



                    The problem with this theory is, the fast food industry has made tons of money, even during the recession. Using history, we know that the risk has been removed for that period of time, it's the benefit of hindsight.

                    Since fast food is the leading industry that pays minimum wage and has been very profitable, they should reward the workers that helped them make all that money.

                    To remove the risk in the future, fast food could offer perfomance bonuses that would pay workers when certain sales goals were met, which would reduce risk. Or, give them minimum wage plus a small commision. Removing risk while rewarding perfomance is only a matter of 60 seconds of creative thinking.
                    First, fine, you didn't say double. However, what I'm trying to show you -- although I'm pretty sure you'll disregard my point -- is that quick service restaurants are already under stress. They aren't as profitable as you might think. Yes, top line numbers are at all-time highs. However, the race to the bottom on pricing and increasing commodity prices are strangling the bottom line.

                    COSTCO and Trader Joe's (I assume that's what you meant) are an apples to oranges comparison.

                    First, COSTCO isn't a franchiser. It's a mega-corporation that, due to massive volume, can eat any regional issues that endanger their razor tight margins at less than 2% annually (which are so tight partially due to wage expense). You can run that risk when you're sitting on $6 billion in cash. The typical McDonald's franchisee probably has slightly less in the bank :rolleyes:

                    Trader Joe's can muster the wages considering they have the highest sales per square foot in the grocery industry. I'm not digging through Aldi Nord financials to pull highlights, but it's not really warranted because you're comparing two different industries, including one driven by union wages and one not.

                    As for your comments about removing risk, ugh.

                    Performance bonuses are offered in some restaurants. You work for one that doesn't offer bonuses? Get a job at one that does.

                    I don't know why I'd pay commissions to unskilled labor whose sales skills end at, "Do you want fries with that?" especially when they're "selling" to a captive audience. This just isn't a reasonable expectation.

                    At the end of the day, here's the thing about unskilled labor: if they strike, how difficult would it be to replace them? By definition alone, it would be the easiest mass layoff to overcome in the history of American commerce. You have a labor requirement (unskilled) with no barrier to entry and high unemployment. I just don't see where the workers have any leverage.
                    Signature

                    Raising a child is akin to knowing you're getting fired in 18 years and having to train your replacement without actively sabotaging them.

                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8455423].message }}
                    • Profile picture of the author Midnight Oil
                      Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                      This is good information, but that's an annual statement, not a monthly statement.
                      You are correct. Thank you.

                      Note to self: Must not type while half asleep and lacking Red Bull.
                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8455449].message }}
                      • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                        Originally Posted by Midnight Oil View Post

                        You are correct. Thank you.

                        Note to self: Must not type while half asleep and lacking Red Bull.
                        It took me a minute when I saw your numbers. I was thinking, "Holy shit! What single franchise is doing $32.4MM a year?!"
                        Signature

                        Raising a child is akin to knowing you're getting fired in 18 years and having to train your replacement without actively sabotaging them.

                        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8455476].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by RobinInTexas View Post

        Just because the teacher is underpaid and the dropout is underpaid is no reason ts screw them both. They both need to make a lot more. If you double the teacher's pay, they will have enough to retire on. If you double the pay of the fast food worker, they will get off food stamps, and stop living paycheck to paycheck, and they might buy a used car and pump some money into the economy.
        The teachers ALREADY have a pension! In fact, they have a SPECIAL pension that has some neat benefits!

        401k vs 403b - What's the Difference in these Retirement Plans?

        MOST people have a 401k, at best, but TEACHERS have a 403b

        And teachers have other time for another job or something, etc...

        Dropout underpaid? OK, so KIDS should be getting paid what an adult that needs to feed a family is paid? Or are you saying that an employer should be forced to higher older workers and pay them more only because they are older? Minimum wage was NOT supposed to be for adults to live on.

        I wonder how long it will take for the automats to come back. They could be NEAT!

        Electronic components, prior to say 1970, used to be VERY manual. Even in 1980, there was a lot of one on one work. My mother worked at such a plant, and I saw the whole place personally. Of course, there are a lot of pictures of such places.

        Sometime between 1980 and 1990 they came up with flow soldering. One of the hardest and most manual things became SIMPLE! NO HUMAN WORK!!!!!!!!! Of course, parts STILL had to be plugged in!

        OK, I have been looking at getting back into electronics. One supplier recently showed off a new machine that they use to assemble their boards. IT picks and plugs the parts in! It's made by samsung. and takes the space of maybe 4 standard work areas. And I was amazed when, in the early 70s, a friend showed me his screw machines. You fed a solid steel bar in one side, and a solid component woiuld come out finished on the other. It might have been a simple screw, or a valve body, etc... But this machine is shorter, can do so much more, and is fully computerized. Here is a video of it in action:


        For those that don't know, the green boards they show at some points here, like in the dual lane shot, are PC boards(printed circuit boards). Simple PCboards have been made by highly automated means, and they replace the point to point chassis wiring that was common prior to like 1970. But you STILL had to solder(fix the components on the board) FLOW soldering took care of THAT! But you STILL had to pick the parts and place them, and that is what THIS machine does! So the empty PC boards go in, and they come out populated. AW HECK, here is a video of a flow soldering machine in action:


        SERIOUSLY, it is amazing what they have automated these days. The relatively minor work done by an automat staff could be AUTOMATED! Of course, they COULD just stock the stuff in refrigerators, and have it fed. I buy a LOT of stuff at the airport, and did at a BOFA cafeteria that was premade elsewhere. A LOT of food is.

        And BYE BYE mistakes! BYE BYE misunderstandings! BYE BYE having to YELL into those stupid PA systems. I was almost burned a couple times because of a mixup! I could have been KILLED by a couple mixups. HECK, I had a coworker that TWICE landed in the hospital because of mixups!

        Steve
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8453802].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author travlinguy
    Maybe if people want to earn more they should improve themselves so they're actually worth more.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8453103].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author StokesM
      I am ALL for anyone that wants to get ahead or better themselves. However, giving it to them is not the answer.

      Speaking as a Small Business Owner (2 previous to this one), initiative, ambition, honesty, responsibility, forward thinking, leadership, promptness, etc... are only a few verbs that are holding most people from achieving their goals or at least trying to attain them.

      Far too often we want to REWARD those who DON'T try or that will NOT take responsibility for THEIR actions!!

      What a Man Thinks So is He. Proverbs 23:7

      The last Guy I hired was 56 yrs old, Married, and had not worked in 6 months. He and his wife were living and being supported by their young adult daughter. After interviewing this guy I thought, age, maturity, need the money - he will be the perfect employee.

      Surely, he will be an ambitious, hard working, and prompt employee - NOT!! One of the worse employees I have ever hired. By the way the Job is Performance Base (no it is not sales - service).

      We pay weekly. Work hours were less than 40 hours a week - the work was/is not strenuous at all. Actual physical work (we make house call) was probably - 15 to 20 hours a week. He made over $800 some weeks.

      What happened here? Simple. What a Man Thinks So is He! I believe in giving ANYONE a "Hand Up" not a "Hand Out"!

      Take Care & God Bless
      Chris
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8453222].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
      Originally Posted by travlinguy View Post

      Maybe if people want to earn more they should improve themselves so they're actually worth more.
      That will never work. Too many people would have to give up their victim status and sense of entitlement.

      Man, what a subversive you are.
      Signature

      Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8453294].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    How much is a Big Mac actually costing us already?

    Considering how many fast food and other low wage employees are getting fed and local government benefits of some sort, how much is a Big Mac really?

    Many things need to be improved: jobs, government policies that encourage staying at xyz income level or lose benefits, attitudes that determine altitude, personal choices...
    Signature

    "If you think you're the smartest person in the room, then you're probably in the wrong room."

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8453209].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author travlinguy
    What a hardass I am for suggesting that people should strive to better themselves. Here's a little perspective. It's the starting wage for teachers, state by state. It's almost impossible to figure an hourly rate for teachers because many of them put in LOTS of time away from the classroom as well as in the classroom. I'd bet the hourly wage of some teachers would be pretty damned close to $15/hour.

    NEA - 2011-2012 Average Starting Teacher Salaries by State

    Paying unskilled people $15 an hour would be a slap in the face to many folks that have actually worked hard to better themselves. No one is forced to work hard for small money. Receiving chump change for hard work should serve one purpose: INCENTIVE to improve.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8453399].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    $15 an hour is probably a little high. However, it's also probably a starting point for negotiations and isn't chiseled in stone.

    $7.50 an hour is also a little low, especially considering that the fast food industry has been VERY profitable, even during the recession. Everyone else in the industry made more money, why not the workers too? Shouldn't they also share in the success? Wokers used to share in the finacial success.

    Plus, I just heard a study that businesses in the US pay the lowest percentage of revenue on wages since the data starting being collected, which was 1929. If accurate, this is a sad statement on our modern society.

    Then, we need to consider companies like Trader Vics and Costco, which pay well above what their competitors pay, yet are making more money too. Maybe paying more results in better things like better customer service and lower turnover with less training costs?

    Plus, the big fast food corps could do other things to help their employess, such as setting up low cost child care (1/4th of fast food workers have kids), getting group discounts, creating (and paying for) car pools, etc., where the company pays $1 for $2 worth of benefits for their workers, as an example.
    Signature
    Discover the fastest and easiest ways to create your own valuable products.
    Tons of FREE Public Domain content you can use to make your own content, PLR, digital and POD products.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8453407].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author garyv
      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post


      Then, we need to consider companies like Trader Vics and Costco, which pay well above what their competitors pay, yet are making more money too. Maybe paying more results in better things like better customer service and lower turnover with less training costs?
      If this is true, then it's just proof that the free market takes care of itself. Those that don't pay properly will make less money and the marketplace will weed them out. - But forcing companies to pay more when their margins are already so low only results in bad things for everyone. - There's only so much money that comes in, so to raise wages means that you'll most likely have to cut staff unless they raise prices. That means either higher prices, or worse customer service for the rest of us.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8453819].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
        Originally Posted by garyv View Post

        If this is true, then it's just proof that the free market takes care of itself. Those that don't pay properly will make less money and the marketplace will weed them out. - But forcing companies to pay more when their margins are already so low only results in bad things for everyone. - There's only so much money that comes in, so to raise wages means that you'll most likely have to cut staff unless they raise prices. That means either higher prices, or worse customer service for the rest of us.
        Ummm...organizing and striking is the free market. No one is "making" fast food restaurants do anything. Assembly is a right given by the First Ammendment. Where are the "constitutionalists" when you need them?

        Plus, the "free market" isn't nearly as perfect as many want us to believe.

        Any extra costs by paying a fair wage can be offset in a balanced way by raising prices a little, and owners and corp making a little less. Again, fast food as an industry has been doing very well.

        And speaking of "low margins", what's the margin on a cup of coke from a fountain filled by the customer?
        Signature
        Discover the fastest and easiest ways to create your own valuable products.
        Tons of FREE Public Domain content you can use to make your own content, PLR, digital and POD products.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8453910].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author waterotter
    I certainly started off at minimum wage when I was a kid. I worked many jobs while attending school and university. I didn't kill me, if anything, I learned the value of a dollar. I still had chores to do at home, also.

    Even when I had established a well paying career, I continued night school right up until I took an early retirement. I was in school four or five night a week. So ya, folks with their sense of entitlement, as Dennis pointed out, really tick me off.

    Many, now-a-days, don't know the value of a buck as everything is handed to them on a silver platter. I guess one of my greater fears is that kids will drop out of the school system because that money looks really good. Thus the cycle starts and repeats itself from one generation to the next.

    Heck, we have cashiers in our local stores that cannot figure out the simplest mistake without the use of a cash register or calculator.

    We also have a generation of kids out there that cannot tell time by looking at a 12 hour clock - they rely on digital watches.

    Keep the minimum wage low enough for entry level positions. If folks want more, let them earn it. This doesn't have to mean going back to school, just a promotion of sorts. I know this isn't applicable for all entry level positions, that's when they need to look at the alternatives. It's their choice. They can look for another better paying job, they can look into apprenticeships or go back to school.They are not limited in their choices, they are only limited in what they choose to do.

    Quite frankly, I'd rather see the government put more money into the old age pension fund so our seniors can rest easily without fear of having to work when they are eighty. This is NOT an exaggeration by any means. A friend's dad, eighty-two was working a job collecting scrap metal, trying to make ends meet. He fell ill one day and was taken to the hospital. He died about three weeks later with cancer.

    It's one thing for our elders to be out there in the work force if they choose to do so. Some are simply lonely and want that connection with others. It's not right, in this day and age to have our seniors working in their seventies and eighties because there spouse has died and they cannot afford the rent.

    Maybe it's a good thing this ole world may be starting the beginning of the end.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8453844].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author rondo
    The Magical World Where McDonald's Pays $15 an Hour? It's Australia - Jordan Weissmann - The Atlantic

    Yes they do pay much more here.
    The article claims that the food is more expensive here. I disagree with that. It's basically the same price as it is in the US cities I've been to.


    Andrew
    Signature
    Online courses
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8454482].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
      Originally Posted by rondo View Post

      The Magical World Where McDonald's Pays $15 an Hour? It's Australia - Jordan Weissmann - The Atlantic

      Yes they do pay much more here.

      The article claims that the food is more expensive here.

      I disagree with that. It's basically the same price as it is in the US cities I've been to.


      Andrew

      Very interesting article.

      Thanks!

      TL
      Signature

      "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8454592].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Midnight Oil
        Income Statement for "Average" U.S. McDonald's Franchisee
        http://www.burgerbusiness.com/wp-con...Janney_McD.jpg

        Net Sales = $2,700,000 per month
        Crew Payroll = $540,000 per month
        Store Profit = $153,900 per month

        $540,000 Crew Payroll / $7.25 minimum wage = 74,483 labor hours per month

        ==============================

        74,483 labor hours x $10 minimum wage = $744,830 Crew Payroll (an increase of $204,830 per month).

        Restaurant is now losing $50,930 per month

        Restaurant would have to raise prices 7.59% across the board to maintain $153,900 monthly profit

        ==============================

        74,483 labor hours x $15 minimum wage = $1,117,245 Crew Payroll (an increase of $577,245 per month).

        Restaurant is now losing $423,345 per month

        Restaurant would have to raise prices 21.38% across the board to maintain $153,900 monthly profit

        ==============================

        And Obamacare hasn't even kicked in yet . . .
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8454859].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
          Originally Posted by Midnight Oil View Post

          Income Statement for "Average" U.S. McDonald's Franchisee
          http://www.burgerbusiness.com/wp-con...Janney_McD.jpg

          Net Sales = $2,700,000 per month
          Crew Payroll = $540,000 per month
          Store Profit = $153,900 per month

          $540,000 Crew Payroll / $7.25 minimum wage = 74,483 labor hours per month

          ==============================

          74,483 labor hours x $10 minimum wage = $744,830 Crew Payroll (an increase of $204,830 per month).

          Restaurant is now losing $50,930 per month

          Restaurant would have to raise prices 7.59% across the board to maintain $153,900 monthly profit

          ==============================

          74,483 labor hours x $15 minimum wage = $1,117,245 Crew Payroll (an increase of $577,245 per month).

          Restaurant is now losing $423,345 per month

          Restaurant would have to raise prices 21.38% across the board to maintain $153,900 monthly profit

          ==============================

          And Obamacare hasn't even kicked in yet . . .


          So a good question is would the American people pay a little more for their food if it meant workers get paid more?????
          Signature

          "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8454898].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Sumit Menon
            Originally Posted by rondo View Post

            The Magical World Where McDonald's Pays $15 an Hour? It's Australia - Jordan Weissmann - The Atlantic

            Yes they do pay much more here.
            The article claims that the food is more expensive here. I disagree with that. It's basically the same price as it is in the US cities I've been to.


            Andrew
            The population density in Australia is 2.8/km sq., while that in America is 34.2/km. sq. Do you not think that makes a difference? On an average there are 12 more people applying for the same job in America than in Australia. Of course, the wages are higher. I'd be surprised if it weren't!

            The article mentions that Australian McD workers are making more than the minimum wage. If people are making more than the minimum wage then this debate wouldn't happen in the first place, would it?

            Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

            So a good question is would the American people pay a little more for their food if it meant workers get paid more?????
            Sure. If it would only be restricted to food that'd seem reasonable.

            But soon the teachers union would start asking for more and the question would be, are Americans willing to pay a little more for their kid's education if it meant teachers would be paid more?

            Then you'd ask the same question for the waiters, electricians, carpenters, truckers, plumbers etc. and before you know it, everybody is making the same amount of money. And then you'd begin with the fast food restaurant employees again.

            Some people have to be paid less, if they are doing work a lot of other people can do. That's how it works! Nobody made it that way. It's just how it works!
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8454955].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author rondo
              Originally Posted by Sumit Menon View Post

              The population density in Australia is 2.8/km sq., while that in America is 34.2/km. sq. Do you not think that makes a difference? On an average there are 12 more people applying for the same job in America than in Australia. Of course, the wages are higher. I'd be surprised if it weren't!
              You're forgetting that the USA has 22X more stores than Australia does.


              Andrew
              Signature
              Online courses
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8455014].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Sumit Menon
                Originally Posted by rondo View Post

                You're forgetting that the USA has 22X more stores than Australia does.


                Andrew
                I guess the reason must be something else then. The article doesn't give any reason for the disparity per se.

                Is it possible that in Australia, people are not aswilling to work at a fast food restaurant as much as in America? What is the % of total population employed in Australia vs. % of total population employed in America at fast food restaurants? The wages are above the minimum wage. There must be SOMETHING that causes this disparity.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8455029].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author rondo
                  Originally Posted by Sumit Menon View Post

                  There must be SOMETHING that causes this disparity.
                  I can't figure it out either.


                  Andrew
                  Signature
                  Online courses
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8455053].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                    In 1977 I made $4 an hour at my first unskilled job filing contracts away. The
                    only thing I needed to be able to do was know the alphabet.

                    The $120 a week I made was not meant to allow me to have my own apartment
                    or take care of a family or even myself for that matter. It was meant to make
                    it so that I could put gas in my car to go to work, buy some meals and maybe
                    have a few bucks to buy a record once in a while.

                    The job was to give me experience in the work force. When I wanted to make
                    more money so that I could support myself, I looked for a better job. I didn't
                    ask my employer to give me more money to file contracts.

                    The entitlement mentality of the world today is going to destroy it. The trickle
                    up effect of increased wages for a job that anybody with a functioning brain
                    can do is going to rip apart what is left of our failed economy.

                    I think adding incentives to fast food workers pay (commission for reaching
                    certain goals) is the way to go, not automatically bumping up their pay just
                    because.

                    The bigger problem is that the US minimum wage has not kept up with the
                    rate of inflation. $4 in 1977 had much more buying power than $8 in 2013
                    and THAT is the problem.

                    As to what the solution is, I don't have a clue. Hell, the experts in our
                    government don't have a clue or they'd done it by now. But the answer is
                    NOT paying unskilled workers more money. The effects, as they trickle up
                    through the rest of the job market, will be staggering. And in the end, all
                    we would have done is just increased inflation so that the people making
                    $15 an hour flipping burgers (or whatever they're paid) are no better off than
                    they were making $8 an hour.
                    Signature
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8455144].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
            Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

            So a good question is would the American people pay a little more for their food if it meant workers get paid more?????
            What about the grocery store? Don't their workers deserve to be paid well?

            What about the person who pumps your gas? Does he deserve to be paid well?

            How many more people are we going to have to hand these raises out to if the fast food workers are getting a raise? After all, don't they all deserve one too?

            And do you really think you're going to be any better off than you were before if everyone who supposedly deserves it gets a raise? Or is it going to be everyone is the same off as before, only the numbers are higher?

            Think about all the times the minimum wage has been raised? Has it ever really helped anyone ever?
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8462971].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
              Of course it has. It's at least helped those who got a raise and that's at the very least.

              Originally Posted by Floyd Fisher View Post


              Think about all the times the minimum wage has been raised? Has it ever really helped anyone ever?
              How many more people are we going to have to hand these raises out to if the fast food workers are getting a raise? After all, don't they all deserve one too?
              Of course it all depends on strikes and agreements/contracts. I know the unions have taken a beating since Reagan but one thing is clear to me: Unions helped build our middle class and our economy is stronger if the middle class is stronger.
              Signature
              Over 50 Dating
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8463695].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                Of course it has. It's at least helped those who got a raise and that's at the very least. Silly question. :/
                You're RIGHT! It IS a silly question! Of COURSE it hasn't!

                According to census! I am using WHITE/NON HISPANIC since all say we are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO privileged! OK?

                1972 income, for upper 25% of wage earners! $17,150USD BTW the NEXT upper 25% is $12,098!

                Around 2009 FULL TIME(2080 hours) worker $7.25USD=$15,080
                After proposed $9.00 for a "FULL TIME"(1508 hours) worker=$13,572

                HOW CAN THAT BE? They make MORE than like 75% of the people out there, and STILL claim to be SOOO poor? YIKES!

                Ok, let me tell you a secret. PSSST! This is SO secret that half the politicians out there do NOT breath a word of this, and don't want you to know it, or even THINK about it! READY? Here it goes!

                You CAN'T raise the minimum wage for fast food workers! It would destroy the economy! IMAGINE! People would no longer do whatever, and would go to the restaurants! AND, with there being all the restaurants to support them, store revenues would drop. They can't raise the price because it would cut sales even more! So HOW do they do it? Well, REALLY, they never have!

                Some jobs are INDEXED TO MINIMUM wage! In fact, Carter created a number of rules that kick in if you make less than about 7 times the minimum wage! A whole bunch of government workers have salaries indexed to the minimum wage. Others are indexed to THEM! And what of walmart, etc? You REALLY think they can just keep the rate to same? NOPE! SO, EVENTUALLY(between 0 minutes to maybe a year or two), the salaries will end up about the same. I said earlier that the minimum wage, allowing for wage inflation should be $7.90. That is reasonably close to the federal $7.25 mandate and actually LESS than the 9 states that are over $8/hour!

                And what of raising the prices to pay for it? NO PROBLEM! I mean they have more money, RIGHT? THERE YOU HAVE IT FOLKS! INFLATION EXPLAINED in a couple paragraphs! Tell your friends!

                BTW Tim.... Your statement I quoted illustrates how you deal with only ONE variable in an equation and claim it is solved! You answered your OWN question! Have YOU been looked at lately?

                Steve
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8464547].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                  As of today, the minimum wage is actually worth $2 less than it was in 1968, when adjusted for inflation, according to a June study by the non-partisan Economic Policy Institute.
                  And as of today, the average family income is 4.4% less than it was four years ago, too.

                  Why Raising The Minimum Wage Kills Jobs - Forbes

                  I don't have a problem raising the minimum wage - but there are places where the minimum wage now is $9 or $10.

                  In the most recent strike several groups of strikers paraded through the restaurant with their signs and chants. Owners aren't going to tolerate that for long.
                  Signature
                  Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world changes forever for that one dog
                  ***
                  One secret to happiness is to let every situation be
                  what it is instead of what you think it should be.
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8464844].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                    Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                    And as of today, the average family income is 4.4% less than it was four years ago, too.

                    Why Raising The Minimum Wage Kills Jobs - Forbes

                    I don't have a problem raising the minimum wage - but there are places where the minimum wage now is $9 or $10.

                    In the most recent strike several groups of strikers paraded through the restaurant with their signs and chants. Owners aren't going to tolerate that for long.
                    And it is about 8.3% less than the average wage is, accounting for inflation. I SHOULD say that they plan to soon raise it to over TWELVE percent MORE than the national average, relative to where it was in 1990!

                    BTW under private property rules, and rules for the government and liberal offices(such as planned parenthood), strikers are breaking civil AND criminal law! EVENTUALLY, someone will bring that up with the equal protection law and striking as you know it may be OUTLAWED OFFICIALLY.

                    Steve
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8465489].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
              Originally Posted by Floyd Fisher View Post

              What about the grocery store? Don't their workers deserve to be paid well?

              What about the person who pumps your gas? Does he deserve to be paid well?

              How many more people are we going to have to hand these raises out to if the fast food workers are getting a raise? After all, don't they all deserve one too?

              And do you really think you're going to be any better off than you were before if everyone who supposedly deserves it gets a raise? Or is it going to be everyone is the same off as before, only the numbers are higher?

              Think about all the times the minimum wage has been raised? Has it ever really helped anyone ever?

              So I guess your answer to the question I raised is...

              "hell to the no!" ...

              ...you are not interested in paying a little bit more so that fast food workers can get paid a little bit more.

              I guess I can also assume that the folks who thanked for your comment/question - feel the same.

              The minimum wage hasn't been raised since 2009. ( I think )

              If it kept up with inflation of course it would help people - but of course it hasn't.

              One study says...


              $10 Minimum Wage Would Push More Than Half Of Working Poor Out Of Poverty: Study


              Another study said...

              As of today, the minimum wage is actually worth $2 less than it was in 1968, when adjusted for inflation, according to a June study by the non-partisan Economic Policy Institute.


              BTW...

              Here's hundreds of actual economists saying a gradual rise in the min wage won't destroy jobs or ignite inflation.

              http://www.epi.org/files/page/-/pdf/..._wage_2006.pdf


              Guess what?

              If pay in America had kept up with the productivity of the American worker - in general the minimum wage would be about $22 per hour.




              Here's Senator Liz Warren on that same subject...



              Here's a story about a fast food chain that pays decently and still makes money:

              The Burrito Chain That Pays Entry-Level Workers $10 An Hour And Wants To Pay More | ThinkProgress


              Enjoy your labor day!


              TL
              Signature

              "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8464508].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                So I guess your answer to the question I raised is...

                "hell to the no!" ...

                ...you are not interested in paying a little bit more so that fast food workers can get paid a little bit more.

                I guess I can also assume that the folks who thanked for your comment/question - feel the same.

                The minimum wage hasn't been raised since 2009. ( I think )

                If it kept up with inflation of course it would help people - but of course it hasn't.

                One study says...


                $10 Minimum Wage Would Push More Than Half Of Working Poor Out Of Poverty: Study


                Another study said...

                As of today, the minimum wage is actually worth $2 less than it was in 1968, when adjusted for inflation, according to a June study by the non-partisan Economic Policy Institute.


                BTW...

                Here's hundreds of actual economists saying a gradual rise in the min wage won't destroy jobs or ignite inflation.

                http://www.epi.org/files/page/-/pdf/..._wage_2006.pdf


                Guess what?

                If pay in America had kept up with the productivity of the American worker - in general the minimum wage would be about $22 per hour.




                Here's Senator Liz Warren on that same subject...

                Elizabeth Warren - Senate HELP Committee - Minimum Wage - YouTube


                Here's a story about a fast food chain that pays decently and still makes money:

                The Burrito Chain That Pays Entry-Level Workers $10 An Hour And Wants To Pay More | ThinkProgress


                Enjoy your labor day!


                TL
                MAN, there is SO much that is HOGWASH with this. I don't know where to start. FIRST, unemployment is HIGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! EVEN if the government values were FULL values , as supposedly presented earlier, the relatively stable unemployment shows unemployment is going ****UP****! WHY? Some people are no longer looking, FACT! Some people rolled off, FACT! Some people are UNDER EMPLOYED, FACT! Many jobs have been cut back, FACT! If the rate goes up, people will lose their jobs, FACT!

                But lets say the minimum wage WERE $22! A teacher in indiana starts out around $16.82! The average CPA with basic education gets $20.05/hour! HECK, the average electronics engineer makes only $41.35/hour!

                So look at all the salaries that will have to go up. You SERIOUSLY don't think that will lead to inflation? So why is Australias minimum wage so low? For a 20 YO it is over $15. YOU want to raise ours to 22!?!!? Relative to inflation, that means australians should get $27.5AUD!!!!!!!!

                And WHO determined productivity? WHAT cross section? And that burrito chain wants to pay workers over $10/hour? GREAT! WHY DON'T THEY!?!!?!? They could pay $1000/hour for all I care! They will become famous for several reasons:

                1. Paying employees more than almost anywhere else on the planet.
                2. MAYBE having a couple quick millionares.
                3. Having the dumbest managers ANYWHERE.
                4. Driving themselves into bankruptcy.


                BTW When did they *******EVER****** lower the minimum wage? Your chart indicates they have several times. And DON'T mention inflation! REMEMBER, you have constantly denied that, ALSO, I have mentioned SEVERAL TIMES at how well the minimum wage matched average wages!!

                Steve
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8466063].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Midnight Oil
                Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                Any study by the Restaurant Opportunity Center is suspect. It has had more than its own share of problems including enormous debt, wage lawsuits and tax liens because of its own restaurant, Colors, which was built upon thousands of unpaid worker hours for the promise of ownership shares. These guys aren't the heroes some try to make them out to be.

                Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                the non-partisan Economic Policy Institute.

                Here's hundreds of actual economists saying a gradual rise in the min wage won't destroy jobs or ignite inflation.

                http://www.epi.org/files/page/-/pdf/..._wage_2006.pdf
                The Economic Policy Institute may tout itself as non-partisan, but it is a widely recognized liberal organization which receives 29% funding from labor unions, with a board of directors made up of past and current union heads. It isn't too difficult to see which direction these guys lean. Richard Trumka, non-partisan? :rolleyes:

                Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                Here's a story about a fast food chain that pays decently and still makes money:

                The Burrito Chain That Pays Entry-Level Workers $10 An Hour And Wants To Pay More | ThinkProgress
                While Boloco seems to be a good concept, their pay scale ($9 - $11 starting, up to $17 for long time workers) and perks ($50 monthly transportation budget for all workers, for example) certainly contributes to their slow growth (just over 20 restaurants in twenty years). They don't post any real numbers, so there's really no way to know just how successful they may actually be. I imagine it's pretty difficult keeping restaurant workers productive with big screen tv's and recliners in the breakroom. They also just closed their Medford location, so everything probably isn't quite as rosy as the article lets on.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8466258].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Kurt
          Originally Posted by Midnight Oil View Post

          Income Statement for "Average" U.S. McDonald's Franchisee
          http://www.burgerbusiness.com/wp-con...Janney_McD.jpg

          Net Sales = $2,700,000 per month
          Crew Payroll = $540,000 per month
          Store Profit = $153,900 per month

          $540,000 Crew Payroll / $7.25 minimum wage = 74,483 labor hours per month

          ==============================

          74,483 labor hours x $10 minimum wage = $744,830 Crew Payroll (an increase of $204,830 per month).

          Restaurant is now losing $50,930 per month

          Restaurant would have to raise prices 7.59% across the board to maintain $153,900 monthly profit

          ==============================

          74,483 labor hours x $15 minimum wage = $1,117,245 Crew Payroll (an increase of $577,245 per month).

          Restaurant is now losing $423,345 per month

          Restaurant would have to raise prices 21.38% across the board to maintain $153,900 monthly profit

          ==============================

          And Obamacare hasn't even kicked in yet . . .
          So, to give fast food workers a raise to $10 an hour would add a "whopping" 46 cents to a $6 meal, while giving someone working 40 hours about $100 extra a week.
          Signature
          Discover the fastest and easiest ways to create your own valuable products.
          Tons of FREE Public Domain content you can use to make your own content, PLR, digital and POD products.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8454965].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Sumit Menon
            Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

            So, to give fast food workers a raise to $10 an hour would add a "whopping" 46 cents to a $6 meal, while giving someone working 40 hours about $100 extra a week.
            The price wouldn't go up by the full 46 cents. The restaurant owner would take a cut in his profits but much of the cost would still be borne by the consumers.

            The problem is not that the food prices would go up. The problem is that other industries would start demanding the same until everyone makes what they used to make before.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8455008].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
          The 7.59% seems very doable and reasonable. They could even phase in the increase over a couple years to make the increases easier to swallow. ( Pun intended. )
          Originally Posted by Midnight Oil View Post

          Income Statement for "Average" U.S. McDonald's Franchisee
          http://www.burgerbusiness.com/wp-con...Janney_McD.jpg

          Net Sales = $2,700,000 per month
          Crew Payroll = $540,000 per month
          Store Profit = $153,900 per month

          $540,000 Crew Payroll / $7.25 minimum wage = 74,483 labor hours per month

          ==============================

          74,483 labor hours x $10 minimum wage = $744,830 Crew Payroll (an increase of $204,830 per month).

          Restaurant is now losing $50,930 per month

          Restaurant would have to raise prices 7.59% across the board to maintain $153,900 monthly profit
          Signature
          Over 50 Dating
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8455818].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Joe_Chuck
          Originally Posted by Midnight Oil View Post

          Income Statement for "Average" U.S. McDonald's Franchisee
          http://www.burgerbusiness.com/wp-con...Janney_McD.jpg

          Net Sales = $2,700,000 per month
          Crew Payroll = $540,000 per month
          Store Profit = $153,900 per month

          $540,000 Crew Payroll / $7.25 minimum wage = 74,483 labor hours per month

          ==============================

          74,483 labor hours x $10 minimum wage = $744,830 Crew Payroll (an increase of $204,830 per month).

          Restaurant is now losing $50,930 per month

          Restaurant would have to raise prices 7.59% across the board to maintain $153,900 monthly profit

          ==============================

          74,483 labor hours x $15 minimum wage = $1,117,245 Crew Payroll (an increase of $577,245 per month).

          Restaurant is now losing $423,345 per month

          Restaurant would have to raise prices 21.38% across the board to maintain $153,900 monthly profit

          ==============================

          And Obamacare hasn't even kicked in yet . . .
          Wow, over $500k a month in payroll. I got to work at Mcdonalds. It didnt make sense to me, I looked at the break down. This is the PNL for the year.

          However, I do think a typical McDonald's profits more the $153,000 a year. BUT, I'm sick of people thinking they are entitled to someone else's investment just because they work there. The amount of money a business profits shouldn't be of anybody's concern except the owner of that business.

          I'm over the argument, "The business owner makes to much money, he should pay us more." No, you should get paid the amount of money relative to your skill set. If you want more, make yourself worth more, get some skills!

          But the business owner who has probably put everything on the line at one point to be where they are shouldn't have to pay you a penny more then your skill set when they are successful.

          If someone doesn't like being stuck in a crappy job. Then work hard to better yourself. I did! I'm sure most of you did!
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8455886].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Sumit Menon
    This happened in Mumbai in the 1980s. There were a large number of cotton mills here at that time. The workers in these mills were paid miserly salaries and a doctor called Dutta Samant led a union of workers at one of these mills and negotiated a higher salary. Word spread about this and all the workers at the other mills started requesting him to represent them. So, 200K-300K workers under his leadership went on a massive strike. The strike went on for a year. The workers pooled all their life savings to survive during the strike. Trains of foodgrains were brought into the city by Samant to feed the workers. Finally, the mill owners got fed up shut down the mills and sold off the land. All these people were left unemployed. The whole industry vanished within few months from the city. Sure they were paid very less but at least they had a job.The mill owners lost a few million dollars at the most. The workers lost their livelihood.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8454986].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    This is most interesting...


    McDonalds Tells Workers To Budget By Getting A Second Job And Turning Off Their Heat | ThinkProgress
    Signature

    "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8455162].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    OK, first of all, lets get the LIES out of the way!

    1. You are talking about AUSTRALIA!
    2. NOBODY said you couldn't raise the minimum wage. They HAVE! The argument is the effect.
    3. The government MANDATED effectively a 6% wage increase for employees! OK, THE employees wouldn't get it, but the employer would have to pay! What did many employers do? They gave the employees a REAL 27.5% pay CUT! Cutting hours back to 29 hours per week!
    4. To say the minimum wage is $15, and thus all at mcdonalds get that is a LIE!


    HERE is the TRUTH:

    Australia’s minimum wage

    For junior employees, the minimum rates are:
    Under 16 years of age $5.87
    At 16 years of age $7.55
    At 17 years of age $9.22
    At 18 years of age $10.90
    At 19 years of age $13.17
    At 20 years of age $15.59

    Got that? So hiring people under 17 years of age, the average american middle wage earner makes MORE! In REAL money, MANY US earners, under 18yo, make more, relative to average wages!

    NO, we have argued it will increase problems and inflation, and it has. According to graphs and official documents I found, the US has gone up approximately 100%, and australia approximately 150% in the past 23 years. That really shouldn't happen. It is called INFLATION. And we KNOW it is UNDER reported in the US, and increasing.

    Speaking of inflation, by that reckoning, the current minimum wage in the US should be 7.90 to keep pace with inflation, according to the FEDERAL minimum. The FEDERAL minimum is currently 7.25, though it has apparently not gone up since 2009! Apparently about 9 states exceed that.

    KURT laughs at an increase of $0.46. Apparently in 1972, a quarter pounder cost $0.55! Funny how it doesn't mean so much anymore, HUH? INFLATION!

    Liberal Party - labour market reform, minimum wage

    The IRONIC thing is that minimum wage earners will be FORCED to get a raise, and most others will have to ask. Prices WILL go up! Doesn't it sound like the middle class will get poorer and the rich will get richer? Many government workers are indexed to the minimum wage, so THEY will get automatic raises ALSO! OTHER government workers are indexed to still OTHERS, and so THEY will get raises. Ronald Reagan, for example, got a raise when he raised the salaries of the supreme court.

    So inflation wins again. BTW the PUBLIC investments and most pension products are NOT indexed to inflation, so this will likely adversely affect retired people ALSO! FORGET about COLA on social security, etc... They are manipulating and under reporting it, so COLA might as well not exist!

    Steve
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8455200].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      .

      KURT laughs at an increase of $0.46. Apparently in 1972, a quarter pounder cost $0.55! Funny how it doesn't mean so much anymore, HUH? INFLATION!
      Teve,

      I was waiting for you to bite. Why are you only concerned with the effects of minimum wage employees affecting inflation?

      Why aren't you as concerned with rising franchise fees also causing inflation?

      How much was a McD's franchise fee in 1972?

      How much did the CEOs make for McD's in 1972?

      If inflation is such a big deal to you, why aren't you concerned about these factors too?

      I'd be willing to bet that the CEO's salary was risen MORE than the rate of inflation since 1972, while the minimum wage hasn't? Want to bet? How much?

      And I'll also laugh at a home owner crying about inflation. You own your home, correct? Do you really want the value of it to deflate? Does any business owner want the value of the business to go up or down?
      Signature
      Discover the fastest and easiest ways to create your own valuable products.
      Tons of FREE Public Domain content you can use to make your own content, PLR, digital and POD products.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8455221].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

        Teve,

        I was waiting for you to bite. Why are you only concerned with the effects of minimum wage employees affecting inflation?

        Why aren't you as concerned with rising franchise fees also causing inflation?

        How much was a McD's franchise fee in 1972?

        How much did the CEOs make for McD's in 1972?

        If inflation is such a big deal to you, why aren't you concerned about these factors too?

        I'd be willing to bet that the CEO's salary was risen MORE than the rate of inflation since 1972, while the minimum wage hasn't? Want to bet? How much?

        And I'll also laugh at a home owner crying about inflation. You own your home, correct? Do you really want the value of it to deflate? Does any business owner want the value of the business to go up or down?
        For one thing, inflation affects franchise fees! ALSO, franchise fees at a few thousand stores like once a year don't affect inflation as much as millions of workers every hour! INFLATION ALSO affects WAGES! If a wage is raised 100%, and inflation goes up 100%, the value of the raise is ******ZERO******! MEANWHILE, retirement funds, etc... DROP!

        As for ceos? YEP! I hate that, though their income IS over reported! If berkshire hathway DOUBLES, warren buffets net worth likely doubles, even though it really didn't. I mean he couldn't just sell the stock, and selling it could drop the value.

        Still, they ALSO don't affect inflation.

        As for being a homeowner? EVERYONE HERE has something that will increase in dollar amount by inflation. WHAT'S your point? YEAH, I ALSO have stocks for retirement, that may be adversely hit by inflation, especially if companies have to cut back. The SHTF scenario I spoke about earlier, that I said might be delayed a couple years, apparently WON'T be! People are saying it has started! And one little point I missed is ALSO adversely affecting things. And some OTHER things are affecting food prices. The last thing we need is MORE inflation!

        People act like change won't make any difference. ONE QUESTION! If change won't make any difference, ******WHY DO IT******!?

        And you ask why I worry about BILLIONS of small amounts instead of a relatively few LARGE amounts, as YOU obviously do. Why aren't YOU then worried about both as well? Do YOU own a home?

        Do I dislike gates for the lies, hubris, etc? YEP! But he HAS taken a lot of risk, and people high up in a corporation often get and/or keep stock. I guess you like him for the "charity". Anyway, stock is based on value, and he has put people to work all over the world.

        As for warren buffett, I guess, outside of political and stock, I can't say too much bad about him, but he DID keep the stock, etc.... He HAS taken risks. A LOT of people owe their jobs to him.

        Do I dislike the lies that ellison has told, the hubris, etc...? YEP! One BIG lie I asked some of his employees about. They said they laugh about that, and the lawyers scrambled to cover the lie with some VERY SMALL PRINT put in the ads. But it is a nice product and a LOT of people owe their jobs to him. HEY, HE is a CEO ALSO, and got a lot of stock, etc....

        As for the Koch brothers? I don't know enough about THEM to comment either, but they are also high up, and own stock. Apparently georgia pacific is a good company. THEY have hired many.

        The WALTONS! Well, SAM did risk a LOT. HE started out with a franchise! Love him or hate him, he has put many to work. We may never know the REAL impact, because of the block buster mentality. IRONIC that I should mention that because I joked about block busters name, and knew the video industry was on it's last breath when I saw them buy up all the local rental companies in my area in like the 1990s. The prices DOUBLED OVERNIGHT, and I bet sales went DOWN!

        OK, one I hate, and one I would simply not want to comment on....., so I won't.

        Do I dislike bezos for the lies, monopolizing, affiliate tricks, etc....? YEP! But they were like one of the first to come up with the affiliate methodology, and I hate to admit it but it HAS grown to be a nice platform. And B&M stores can complain all they want but I have bought some stuff locally based on research done on amazon! Still, he IS the CEO, put a lot of people to work, etc... LIKE WALMART though, we may never know the REAL impact. They get a portion of sales from one store in my area, and the OTHER major bookstore SHUT DOWN, likely due in big part to amazon.

        I'll stop there. The top 12(er... 10) ranking of america's richest. Again though, who is to say? CMGIs head one day went to sleep RICH and full of hubris, and woke up far poorer and more humble.

        CMGI's stock boomed in the dot-com bubble of the late 1990s, peaking at $163 in 2000, for a market capitalization of more than $40 billion. The stock crashed heavily when the bubble burst, falling below $1 in 2002. As a result, the company was forced to cease its acquisition spree, sell many of its investments, and reduce other costs such as the naming rights to CMGI Field, home of the New England Patriots.
        For those that don't know, one CMGI holding was ALTAVISTA! It was google before google!

        AltaVista - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

        Steve
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8455459].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author garyv
    Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

    Can you show me an example of a fast food company doing something similar that failed?
    Sure - Kenny Rogers Roasters, Quiznos, Judy's, Burger Queen, Burger Chef, and I could name a ton more that you may or may not have heard of because they are no longer around.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8455307].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
      Originally Posted by garyv View Post

      Sure - Kenny Rogers Roasters, Quiznos, Judy's, Burger Queen, Burger Chef, and I could name a ton more that you may or may not have heard of because they are no longer around.
      You're still missing the point. I didn't ask for fast food restaurants that went out of business. I asked for fast food restaurants that went out of business because they paid their employees more than minimum wage. Plus, Quizno's is still in business.

      I'd say it was upper management's fault these places went out of business, and not paying higher wages.

      BTW, the trend is now going away from cheap fast food to higher quality food like Chipoltle and Smash Burger (both started in Denver), where customers still wait in line and service themselves, but get better food in a better atmosphere.

      Places like McD's will need to adapt to this tread, or they will fail, regardless of employee wages.

      But, with the better food at higher prices there will also be higher margins. Why doesn't McD's corp find better food that will sell at higher margins so they make more and they can pay their employees more? How much of their product developement is dedicated to finding ways to be able to pay more?
      Signature
      Discover the fastest and easiest ways to create your own valuable products.
      Tons of FREE Public Domain content you can use to make your own content, PLR, digital and POD products.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8455333].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author garyv
        Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

        You're still missing the point. I didn't ask for fast food restaurants that went out of business. I asked for fast food restaurants that went out of business because they paid their employees more than minimum wage. Plus, Quizno's is still in business.

        I'd say it was upper management's fault these places went out of business, and not paying higher wages.

        BTW, the trend is now going away from cheap fast food to higher quality food like Chipoltle and Smash Burger (both started in Denver), where customers still wait in line and service themselves, but get better food in a better atmosphere.

        Places like McD's will need to adapt to this tread, or they will fail, regardless of employee wages.

        But, with the better food at higher prices there will also be higher margins. Why doesn't McD's corp find better food that will sell at higher margins so they make more and they can pay their employees more? How much of their product developement is dedicated to finding ways to be able to pay more?

        Again - those are a different niche than what McDonalds is in. A different set of consumers. Some of them may over lap, but they target different sub-sets.


        And yes several of those places went out of business because they couldn't cover the overhead, and that includes higher wages. Quiznos is not closed all the way yet, but they are in major decline, because subway has under bid them with their "$5 foot long". It doesn't matter that Quiznos paid their workers better or that their food tastes 10 times better. In the end if you're targeting the fast food niche, you have to obey the numbers.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8455370].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          those are a different niche than what McDonalds is in. A different set of consumers. Some of them may over lap, but they target different sub-sets.
          I disagree - Chipotles and a few other "fast casual" places are hurting the fast food franchises in many areas. Price is competitive, service is fast, food is healthy and GOOD and employees friendly and professional.

          What those restaurants compete with is what the fast food chains are trying to move into - healthier food that appeals to a customer that is more than "hamburger for the kids".
          Signature
          Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world changes forever for that one dog
          ***
          One secret to happiness is to let every situation be
          what it is instead of what you think it should be.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8455689].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            I disagree - Chipotles and a few other "fast casual" places are hurting the fast food franchises in many areas. Price is competitive, service is fast, food is healthy and GOOD and employees friendly and professional.

            What those restaurants compete with is what the fast food chains are trying to move into - healthier food that appeals to a customer that is more than "hamburger for the kids".
            Just an aside: I'm concerned that "fast casuals" will see a significant drop in 5-6 years. Much of their growth is driven by the current early 20-somethings who are typically single with disposable income and are obsessed with organic foods.

            We'll see what happens when this subset starts getting married, buying houses and having kids. The current crop of teens behind them are more disenfranchised with lower employment trends (at the same age) and may not financially be able to follow suit.

            McDonald's is more concerned with Subway, who has overtaken, I believe, McD's as the largest restaurant chain. The McWrap (awful, by the way) was the first shot at Subway. Ronnie will have to do much better.
            Signature

            Raising a child is akin to knowing you're getting fired in 18 years and having to train your replacement without actively sabotaging them.

            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8455762].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author ThomM
              I applied for a salesman's job long ago, and the owner said "How much do you need?". I said "It doesn't matter how much I need. It matters how much I'm worth to you."
              Claude, I always had a similar attitude when applying for a job.
              I was never concerned about the starting pay, but always said this. "If I continue to show that I'm an asset to your business, can I expect to be rewarded through raises and advancements?"
              I've got no problem letting them know I expect more in the future, but I also let them know I'll put in the effort to be worth more.

              For those that say just raise the price of (whatever) to cover the raise are you taking into consideration the added hidden costs that go along with that raise?
              Those workers striking for what amounts to a 7.50 an hour raise I'm sure haven't considered that a raise doubling their pay also doubles the costs of that raise. The companies contribution to S.S. doubles, disability ins. goes up, payroll taxes go up. It's not like it just costs the company the amount of the raise.
              Do you really think if those employees demanding higher wages (without increasing their output) will all keep their jobs?
              Signature

              Life: Nature's way of keeping meat fresh
              Getting old ain't for sissy's
              As you are I was, as I am you will be
              You can't fix stupid, but you can always out smart it.

              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8455925].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                What I did was simple. I got my first job in computers. After getting some
                experience, I left to get a better job. And I kept doing this until I got my last
                job in 1994 making the most money I ever made. I stayed there 6 years until
                they closed up shop because I loved the place so much. It was still my favorite
                job ever. Too bad the company had so many internal problems.

                Point is, nobody is stuck in a dead-end job if they don't want to be. I started
                my own business and did well for 10 years. Now I'm broke. That's on nobody
                but me. If I want to do better, it's up to me to do better, not for somebody
                to give me more money because I want or need it.

                Unless you're physically handicapped and can't work, there is no excuse for
                anybody to have to work for minimum wage if they don't want to.
                Signature
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8455992].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Midnight Oil
    Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

    So a good question is would the American people pay a little more for their food if it meant workers get paid more?????
    How much is "a little more"? Is it the same for the guy out on a date as it is for a family of four? Is it the same for a family or for senior citizens who dine out frequently? How much "a little more" before one or more restaurant visits are eliminated because it no longer fits someone's budget?

    Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

    So, to give fast food workers a raise to $10 an hour would add a "whopping" 46 cents to a $6 meal, while giving someone working 40 hours about $100 extra a week.
    That "whopping" 46 cents adds up quickly depending on the number of meals (family of four, for example) and the frequency of visits (senior citizens, for example, dine out quite a bit).

    Restaurants don't really like raising prices anyway, because they know that when they do they will lose some business. It doesn't matter if it's just a dime extra for a beverage, there are those who will stop coming on a regular basis and some will stop coming altogether. 46 cents on a $6 meal is a huge price increase, and a "whopping" big deal for restaurants and their customers.

    Also, the examples I used were very simplistic, not taking into account other expenses that would be tacked on. It doesn't take into account that payroll taxes, for example, would rise from $54,000 to $74,483 at a $10 minimum wage and $111,725 at a $15 minimum.

    Price increases would also be even higher if adding in any of the extra expenses that you suggested (setting up low cost child care, creating and paying for car pools, offering performance bonuses, commissions, etc.). That money has to come from somewhere.

    My first restaurant job, I made $2.65 an hour. In the early eighties I worked up to four restaurant jobs at a time (one full time, the others part time), then went into management for one (started at $250 per week on a 56 hour schedule). When I finally left the business a couple of years ago, I was making six figures. So I "get" all sides of the issue. I just don't think there are any easy answers that will prove beneficial to all as long as there are those who are thinking only with their heart and those who are thinking only with their P&L.

    There are two things, however, that I do see very clearly:

    (1) There will be a rapid increase in automation in the very near future. When that begins to happen, everything changes.

    (2) For those workers who feel like they are trapped in a low paying job, they're not. It can be tough, but there are many windows of opportunity and doorways of escape. For most of my career I preached to my team that they should not get trapped in their jobs. I would tell them to either move up or move on to something bigger by using their talents and skills to create and build their own business. Take control of your own future and don't let someone else dictate it for you.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8455393].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author travlinguy
    The underlying sentiment for paying higher wages to unskilled help here isn't surprising at all. Our schools reward poor or mediocre performance in the name of not hurting a kid's self esteem. People graduate high school with the ability to read at a 6th grade level. The government bails out banks and other businesses and allows them to receive performance bonuses for failing. Many people break the law and are rewarded for it. So who gets hurt if business owners have to pay more for unskilled help? We all do, directly and indirectly because we've accepted mediocrity as the new standard.

    It's reflected on this forum as well. Look at the banner ads. "Done For You" "Push Button" "Little or No Work Involved" "Autopilot..." It goes on and on.

    It's easy to have compassion for others when it doesn't cost you anything. Yeah, let's stick it to those greedy, money grubbing capitalists. Sure, the people who take all the risks. The people who create the jobs in the first place. There should be rewards for people taking risks. They should be allowed to keep more of what they earn. I have faith that more business owners would offer better wages if they weren't required to pay such high taxes and operating fees to every agency under the sun. It's a fact that charitable donations go down as tax rates rise.

    The word fairness gets tossed around a lot in these discussions. Hell, it's only fair that a business owner shares his profits with those who help him earn. Fairness is subjective.

    Burgers would cost a half a buck more? That's outrageous. I don't eat much fast food but the last time I bought a Whopper it was more than $5. Five dollars for a low quality, unhealthy burger. That's because the store was in a high traffic, upscale location. Gotta pay high rent and high taxes to be there.

    Take a look at the taxes restaurants and other businesses are already paying to support the onerous entitlement society. Generation after generation of able bodied people who can't or won't work for one reason or another and politicians who exploit them in the name of expanding their power base.

    Right now middle class Americans are effectively paying more than half of what they earn to support this free for all. After they've paid their federal income tax there's state taxes, sales taxes, gas tax, phone tax, cable and satellite TV tax, toll roads, tax on food and liqueur, and fees for all types of meddlesome bureaucratic agencies. And we're often reminded by our so-called leaders with subtle and blatant guilt trips that we need to suck it up and pay just a little more.

    Right now we've got more idiotic rules and restrictions on freedom and liberty than we've ever had in the history of this country. If someone wants to go into business various city, state and federal agencies come out of the woodwork to be their partner. There is a breaking point though. Greed is a two way street for both business owners and workers. No one in this mess is completely clean be it business owners or the workers.

    Over the years unions have forced management to pay higher wages than many unskilled jobs called for in a free market. And many of those jobs ended up going overseas. Union members simply chose a different group to use and exploit them. And what's so ironic is that the very people who have forced business out of this country are now the ones who complain the loudest that we have little or no manufacturing in the US. We can't have it both ways.

    Sooner or later the working people who support this nonsense will get tired, drop out and simply join in the plunder. When that happens en masse the system will collapse and everyone will suffer, especially those who never learned to be self sufficient. So it goes...
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8455604].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
      Excellent post Travlinguy!

      Hey, when I see excellence, I call it.

      I think some people get so caught up with just one aspect of our current condition that they fail to see the forest for the trees.

      I'm not surprised that it was you who saw the forest.

      Terra
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8455665].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      The thought of paying my employees more, just because I have the money, or because I make a lot of money...simply never occurs to me.

      I would never lower their wage, simply because I wasn't making very much money on their efforts. A deal is a deal.

      And I've written fat checks to managers and salespeople...when I made no money at all.
      I base what I pay them on what their service is worth, and how expert they are at delivering it. Never on how much I make.

      I also never base pay on how much they need.

      I applied for a salesman's job long ago, and the owner said "How much do you need?". I said "It doesn't matter how much I need. It matters how much I'm worth to you."

      He actually hired me.
      Signature
      One Call Closing book https://www.amazon.com/One-Call-Clos...=1527788418&sr

      What if they're not stars? What if they are holes poked in the top of a container so we can breath?
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8455682].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
        Do you ever factor in cost of living pay raises Claude?
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        The thought of paying my employees more, just because I have the money, or because I make a lot of money...simply never occurs to me.
        Signature
        Over 50 Dating
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8455829].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

          Do you ever factor in cost of living pay raises Claude?
          Tim; No. But it's may not be what you think. I give raises when the employee is giving me greater value.

          For example, showing up on time for a year won't get you a raise..I expect you to be on time.

          But learning a new software that makes your work go faster, may make you more valuable to me. And that may get you a raise.

          Taking on more responsibility in my business will get a raise. Working after hours or at home will get you a bonus. If you don't expect a bonus, it will be bigger.

          The increases in pay have nothing to do with the cost of living. But so far, the raises have been far greater, and come faster, than any increase in living expenses.

          Again, I base what I pay entirely on the value I get. It has nothing to do with how much money they need to make.

          To me, it's a transaction. I'm buying their services/time. What I'm willing to pay has nothing to do with; their gender, nationality, if I like them or not, if they laugh at my jokes, or how they live their life.

          It's just like buying a pair of shoes to me.

          Now, I do have great employees. And they are paid like great employees. But what I pay them has nothing to do with their needs.

          And when the subject is brought up (very rarely) I explain it just like this.
          And I'm paying them (so far) much more than they would earn at most jobs.

          And I insist that they talk to me as an equal. We are equal in my view. They are selling me services, and I'm buying.

          That's the relationship.

          I have a 17 year old kid that applied for a job. It was very hard to accept the fact that he was 16 at the time. I asked how much he wanted as a beginning wage. He told me minimum wage. I laughed and gave him $12 an hour. Three months later, it went up to $16 an hour. Next month, it's going up to $18 or $20 an hour (I haven't definitely decided)

          When he graduates, and works full time, it will go up again.
          But it has nothing whatsoever to do with his expenses, or how much money he needs. I'm paying him what his service is worth to me.

          He's very very good. And he learns quick.
          Signature
          One Call Closing book https://www.amazon.com/One-Call-Clos...=1527788418&sr

          What if they're not stars? What if they are holes poked in the top of a container so we can breath?
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8456029].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author rondo
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            Next month, it's going up to $18 or $120 an hour
            Got a spare job Claude?
            Signature
            Online courses
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8456052].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            <snip>

            To me, it's a transaction. I'm buying their services/time. What I'm willing to pay has nothing to do with; their gender, nationality, if I like them or not, if they laugh at my jokes, or how they live their life. </snip>
            This is the only part of your post I find suspect.
            Signature

            Raising a child is akin to knowing you're getting fired in 18 years and having to train your replacement without actively sabotaging them.

            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8456074].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
            You heartless b^stard!

            Joe Mobley

            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            I expect you to be on time.
            Signature

            .

            Follow Me on Twitter: @daVinciJoe
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8456189].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author webpromotions
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post


            Taking on more responsibility in my business will get a raise. Working after hours or at home will get you a bonus. If you don't expect a bonus, it will be bigger.
            Wow Claude. I lurk here in the OT more than I'd like to admit and I have to say I expected more from you.

            That is one of the most self centered and moronic things I've ever seen anyone say.

            You went out of your way to say that you will only give raises based on how much your employees earn for you, not on how much they want or think they deserve.

            I agree with that 100%, but you just totally contradicted yourself with that ridiculous statement.

            If your employees "take on more responsibility or work after hours at home", they are obviously increasing your bottom line, which you agree is grounds for an increase in pay. You clearly stated that you pay your employees based on their worth. Its an objective vs subjective issue.

            But you want them increase their value (which equates to increasing your profits) only for the fun of it? If they go above and beyond what your initial agreement and "expect" compensation for that, they aren't as entitled?

            I'm all for letting employees fight it out and showing who is more willing to go above and beyond, but to actually come out and say that you will pay less money to someone who expects to be rewarded for their efforts?

            While I don't agree with this whole fast food strike thing, its reasoning like this from employers that has caused this strike.

            If your attitude reflects that of the typical fast food employer, I think I'm ready to change sides.

            I really hope your employees aren't reading this.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8459930].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
              What you are actually saying is "Have the government force businesses to pay an unreasonable amount of money to an individual because you FEEL like they SHOULD receive it.

              ...Seems like a lot of government mandating in your world.
              Just want to make sure we are getting the facts right here Joe, this is a group of people who are attempting to unionize, are striking and protesting to get a higher wage. The government isn't involved in this.
              Signature
              Over 50 Dating
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8459963].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
                "have to pay", "has to reduce profits". Seems like a lot of government mandating in your world.
                Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                Just want to make sure we are getting the facts right here Joe, this is a group of people who are attempting to unionize, are striking and protesting to get a higher wage. The government isn't involved in this.
                Fair enough. Let me see if I can sharpen that up a bit.

                "have to pay", "has to reduce profits". Seems like a lot of mandating by organizations with no skin in the game in your world.
                Joe Mobley
                Signature

                .

                Follow Me on Twitter: @daVinciJoe
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8460066].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by travlinguy View Post

      The underlying sentiment for paying higher wages to unskilled help here isn't surprising at all.

      L
      O
      T
      S

      O
      F

      G
      R
      E
      A
      T

      S
      T
      U
      F
      F

      Sooner or later the working people who support this nonsense will get tired, drop out and simply join in the plunder. When that happens en masse the system will collapse and everyone will suffer, especially those who never learned to be self sufficient. So it goes...
      This may be the best, most spot on, post I've read in the 7 years I've been
      here.

      When kids in school say to my wife "Can't you just pass me for being here?"
      you know we have a BIG problem in this country.

      I wonder how long it will be before we simply collapse?
      Signature
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8455750].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Raydal
    The fight between companies and unions is an old one in this country.
    Whoever has the upper-hand usually takes advantage of the other.

    A couple weeks ago the cover story for TIME magazine was about
    the broke city of Detroit and the article claimed that it was the generous
    benefits of the autoworkers that was partly responsible. Again, outside
    of the politics of the situation, I don't think anyone is innocent really.
    Like any negotiations each party is trying to get the better of the other.

    There is a "hidden" side to all this as well which I cannot raise without
    breaking the forum rules so I'll leave it there.

    -Ray Edwards
    Signature
    The most powerful and concentrated copywriting training online today bar none! Autoresponder Writing Email SECRETS
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8455854].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
      Originally Posted by Raydal View Post


      There is a "hidden" side to all this as well which I cannot raise without
      breaking the forum rules so I'll leave it there.

      -Ray Edwards
      I hear you.

      Terra
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8455898].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
    You could move...

    Believe it or not, a place exists where companies are hiring like crazy, and you can make $15 an hour serving tacos, $25 an hour waiting tables and $80,000 a year driving trucks.
    Oil boom brings high-paying jobs to North Dakota - Sep. 28, 2011
    (Not current but the premise remains the same.)


    Joe Mobley
    Signature

    .

    Follow Me on Twitter: @daVinciJoe
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8456014].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    BTW charging more for a product reduces your market share AND, if not given an option, THE MARKET!

    With regard to the 7.25% raise:

    OLD EXAMPLE(OLD DEF OF PARTTIME, CURRENT MINIMUM)
    74483/30*7=~17379 hours per week
    17379/40=~435 full time employees
    40*7.25=$290/week=$15080/year

    Cost to employer= 435*15080=$6,559,800

    NEW EXAMPLE(NEW DEFINITION OF PART TIME, $10.00/hour minimum)
    74483/30*7=~17379 hours per week
    17379/29=~600 "just under full time" employees
    29*10=$290/week=$15080/year

    Cost to employer=600*15080=$9,048,000

    Oddly, because of the 7.25 versus 10, the employee would be left with the SAME wage for 11 hours less work each week. Adding even ONE hour to the work week will set into motion a lot of new charges. Management and HR would have to deal with more employees!

    Steve
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8456284].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
    The $0.99 menu will now cost $15.99.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8457545].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author garyv
    This guy has a grasp on what opportunity actually is...

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8458693].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
    I have a real question those of you who are for this doubling of wages at fast food joints.

    Where do you get this idea that if you double the main cost in a business (costs come on two legs) that it's only going to raise the cost of the burger .50 to .60? Is there a study actually proving this? Or did we make this number up out of thin air?
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8459942].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author RobinInTexas
    Everybody needs a raise
    Signature

    Robin



    ...Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just set there.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8459951].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
      But... but... that is in Australia! It can't possibly happen like that in the USA. Math doesn't work the same here.

      Thanks Robin.

      Originally Posted by RobinInTexas View Post

      Everybody needs a raise
      Signature
      Over 50 Dating
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8459971].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

        Math doesn't work the same here.
        You have to turn it upside down to understand the maths here.
        Signature
        Why do garden gnomes smell so bad?
        So that blind people can hate them as well.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8460290].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
          "have to pay", "has to reduce profits". Seems like a lot of mandating by organizations with no skin in the game in your world.
          He probably shouldn't have used the words "have" or "has" because the strikers are looking for an agreement/contract. Nevertheless it still wouldn't be a mandate.
          Signature
          Over 50 Dating
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8460316].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

        But... but... that is in Australia! It can't possibly happen like that in the USA. Math doesn't work the same here.

        Thanks Robin.
        Why are you mentioning math? I mean you equate margin 1:1 with profit, say US wages should be the same as australia and say that a one year payment to one person of a few million in stocks and money means that they can create an ONGOING obligation to many THOUSANDS of people for many of THOUSANDS of dollars in cash. You ALSO say a person with a few million in stock can clearly get millions of dollars ASAP.

        So where is math in the picture?

        2 does NOT equal 4
        8 does NOT equal 4

        If you only look at part of the picture, you don't know what is going on. MATH is supposed to be about the whole picture. = means EQUAL even though both sides are often DIFFERENT!

        Steve
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8463009].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
          Oh lordy. What are you talking about? :/

          "You ALSO say a person with a few million in stock can clearly get millions of dollars ASAP."

          I never said that. WTF!? LOL!



          Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

          Why are you mentioning math? I mean you equate margin 1:1 with profit, say US wages should be the same as australia and say that a one year payment to one person of a few million in stocks and money means that they can create an ONGOING obligation to many THOUSANDS of people for many of THOUSANDS of dollars in cash. You ALSO say a person with a few million in stock can clearly get millions of dollars ASAP.

          So where is math in the picture?

          2 does NOT equal 4
          8 does NOT equal 4

          If you only look at part of the picture, you don't know what is going on. MATH is supposed to be about the whole picture. = means EQUAL even though both sides are often DIFFERENT!

          Steve
          Signature
          Over 50 Dating
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8463709].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author ThomM
            Of course it has. It's at least helped those who got a raise and that's at the very least. Silly question. :/
            Yet every time the min. wage is raised it's for the same reason.
            Raise the min wage and the costs of goods and services raise to cover the cost of raising the min. wage.
            Signature

            Life: Nature's way of keeping meat fresh
            Getting old ain't for sissy's
            As you are I was, as I am you will be
            You can't fix stupid, but you can always out smart it.

            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8464456].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Robin do McD's there pay the same for everything else?
      Are their electric costs the same, what about food costs?
      Do they pay the same property taxes, gross sales tax, payroll tax, workers comp., etc as in the U.S.?
      In other words are all the costs that are associated with running a fast food joint, and all the regulations the same there as here?
      Signature

      Life: Nature's way of keeping meat fresh
      Getting old ain't for sissy's
      As you are I was, as I am you will be
      You can't fix stupid, but you can always out smart it.

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8459974].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

        But... but... that is in Australia! It can't possibly happen like that in the USA. Math doesn't work the same here.

        Thanks Robin.
        Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

        Robin do McD's there pay the same for everything else?
        Are their electric costs the same, what about food costs?
        Do they pay the same property taxes, gross sales tax, payroll tax, workers comp., etc as in the U.S.?
        In other words are all the costs that are associated with running a fast food joint, and all the regulations the same there as here?
        Same question for you Tim.
        Signature

        Life: Nature's way of keeping meat fresh
        Getting old ain't for sissy's
        As you are I was, as I am you will be
        You can't fix stupid, but you can always out smart it.

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8459977].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author ThomM
          Another question for the both of you.
          Do the McD's over there have to purchase property ins., Workers comp. ins., Liability ins, etc?
          Do they have to purchase all the different permits and licenses required here?
          Signature

          Life: Nature's way of keeping meat fresh
          Getting old ain't for sissy's
          As you are I was, as I am you will be
          You can't fix stupid, but you can always out smart it.

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8459989].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
            You think they don't have insurance in Australia? :/
            Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

            Another question for the both of you.
            Do the McD's over there have to purchase property ins., Workers comp. ins., Liability ins, etc?
            Do they have to purchase all the different permits and licenses required here?
            Signature
            Over 50 Dating
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8460027].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author ThomM
              Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

              You think they don't have insurance in Australia? :/
              I didn't say that. I asked if they had to purchase ALL the different types that are required here.
              Are the prices the same?
              As you are well aware Tim you can't compare two entirely different countries like that.
              They have different rules, different regulations, different taxes, etc.
              In other words it's irrelevant.
              Signature

              Life: Nature's way of keeping meat fresh
              Getting old ain't for sissy's
              As you are I was, as I am you will be
              You can't fix stupid, but you can always out smart it.

              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8460045].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                Hardly irrelevant at all. Now if you were comparing India and the US, or China and the US, that would be irrelevant. However, Australia and the US are pretty comparable.
                Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                I didn't say that. I asked if they had to purchase ALL the different types that are required here.
                Are the prices the same?
                As you are well aware Tim you can't compare two entirely different countries like that.
                They have different rules, different regulations, different taxes, etc.
                In other words it's irrelevant.
                Signature
                Over 50 Dating
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8460243].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                  Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                  Hardly irrelevant at all. Now if you were comparing India and the US, or China and the US, that would be irrelevant. However, Australia and the US are pretty comparable.
                  Comparing the US to Australia is like comparing the US to India or China, except we look more like India or China in the comparison.

                  Raising or as these workers want doubling salaries may work in a vibrant economy with very low unemployment, but we have neither.
                  If you double pay levels for entry level jobs with the economy the way it is and unemployment the way it is, the cost of living will rise for all of us dramatically. Jobs will be cut or automated.
                  Yea, fast food workers are now making 15 an hour. Except the people eating in those places didn't get their pay doubled and now can't afford the new raised prices on their menus. Now the owners can't afford to pay that many workers so they automate more, cutting jobs.
                  So the results are more unemployment and a more stagnate economy.
                  Then this is all about unionizing the workers.
                  If that happens why wouldn't the business owner just close down their business and start one that doesn't have non union workers?
                  Worked for Hostess.
                  Bottom line is in a poor economy with high unemployment, doubling a sectors salary isn't a good idea.

                  Read this article Tim and the comments, in case you happen to think the economy is doing good and unemployment is really dropping.
                  http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/20...-subtext/?_r=0
                  Signature

                  Life: Nature's way of keeping meat fresh
                  Getting old ain't for sissy's
                  As you are I was, as I am you will be
                  You can't fix stupid, but you can always out smart it.

                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8460415].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
            Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

            Are the prices the same?.
            You'll find that EVERYTHING costs more in Australia.

            Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

            Another question for the both of you.
            Do the McD's over there have to purchase property ins., Workers comp. ins., Liability ins, etc?
            Of course.

            Do they have to purchase all the different permits and licenses required here?
            Our "market" is a lot more regulated than the US, so it's very possible that it costs way more in both fees and compliance costs than it does there.
            Signature
            Why do garden gnomes smell so bad?
            So that blind people can hate them as well.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8460319].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
              Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

              You'll find that EVERYTHING costs more in Australia.
              Which has a direct bearing on why the same job pays more there.

              It's the same here. Where the cost of living is higher, so are the prices for everything.
              Signature

              Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8460395].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author garyv
                Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

                Which has a direct bearing on why the same job pays more there.

                It's the same here. Where the cost of living is higher, so are the prices for everything.
                And so is the McDonalds pay. Here in Chicago you can find McDonalds that will start you off at $12 per hour. But it'll cost you a lot more to live in Chicago.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8460407].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
                  Originally Posted by garyv View Post

                  And so is the McDonalds pay. Here in Chicago you can find McDonalds that will start you off at $12 per hour. But it'll cost you a lot more to live in Chicago.
                  lol - In that last sentence of my post I meant to say, "Where the cost of living is higher, so are the wages."

                  That's what I get for trying to rush that post because my wife wanted me to take the dog out. I can't believe actually I wrote "Where the cost of living is higher, so are the prices for everything." ...what a maroon I am.
                  Signature

                  Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8460429].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                    Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

                    lol - In that last sentence of my post I meant to say, "Where the cost of living is higher, so are the wages."

                    That's what I get for trying to rush that post because my wife wanted me to take the dog out. I can't believe actually I wrote "Where the cost of living is higher, so are the prices for everything." ...what a maroon I am.
                    Okay, Bugs!

                    Terra
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8460443].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
          Pretty comparable Thom.
          Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

          Same question for you Tim.
          Signature
          Over 50 Dating
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8460013].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Midnight Oil
      Originally Posted by RobinInTexas View Post

      Everybody needs a raise
      Really? Everybody?









      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8462160].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by Midnight Oil View Post

        Really? Everybody?
        Things like THIS make me socked that I STILL eat out! I once was at a place with a few people and next to two lower class people. THOSE two both deliver pizzas!

        I overheard one telling his friend. YEAH, they say they don't have enough time, etc... but, when they leave, you KNOW they will just eat somewhere else.

        MAN, I let him have it! I said I'M one of those people, and NO, I DON'T eat somewhere else! I go BACK TO WORK......HUNGRY!

        And these guys show that EVEN if they didn't do this, they would be SPREADING DISEASE! So WHAT are they doing? Here's a hint.... A woman named MARY once did it! She was told that if she did it, she could have stayed in the food business with NO problems. ALAS, she wanted to be in the fodo service and NOT be decent!

        So who was mary? Mary Mallon! WHAT? You NEVER heard of her? She IS world famous! Maybe you know her BETTER by her nom de guerre! TYPHOID MARY!!!!!

        Typhoid Mary - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

        She only infected 51 people, and killed three, according to wikipedia, but it was NEEDLESS!

        Steve
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8462285].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    OK, YUGOS cost SO little! Why do Rolls royces cost so much?

    Australia apparently has BETTER milk and meat than the US. WHAT does that have to do with minimum wage?

    Comparisons like you mention are LUDICROUS! It is IRONIC because a LOT of variables have changed because you THINK you got your way. We are ALL the worse for it, and the SRHTF!!!!!!!!! It is happening NOW, big time, but I can't tell you some details now. STILL, this changed your comparison! ALSO, you have NOT taken into account BUYING POWER, SO......


    Australia 18.50 versus america 16.50

    NORMALIZED to relative inflation: $18.50AUS(250% since 1990) versus $20.62USD(200% since 1990) Gee, why is their inflation higher? HMMM...

    So American workers have seeing their buying power go UP compared to
    Australians! THANKS FOR PLAYING!

    BTW even former FULL TIME workers in the US now have MORE free time than
    australians! Average australian (36 hours) Average minimum wage worker in the
    us? 29 hours! This is a new law being phased in ******NOW******! MANY have been affected. If you haven't seen it and you make minimum wage, you likely soon WILL!

    Steve
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8460120].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author garyv
    The cost of living for everything, including rent prices are nearly 40% lower in the United States compared to Australia:

    Cost Of Living Comparison Between Australia And United States

    Match that up with the fact that every Australian Dollar equals 89cents here and we pay less in taxes, and you'll see that the McDonalds average pay over there goes just about the same distance as the average McDonalds pay over here.

    After all, it is the exact same company.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8460326].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author rondo
      Only weeks ago the dollars were equal so the exchange rate is mostly irelevant.

      Yes everything here costs more, except fast food!!
      Plus, our prices include 10% sales tax.
      So I still can't figure out how we pay double wages but get cheaper fast food.

      Andrew
      Signature
      Online courses
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8460360].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author garyv
        Originally Posted by rondo View Post

        Only weeks ago the dollars were equal so the exchange rate is mostly irelevant.

        Yes everything here costs more, except fast food!!
        Plus, our prices include 10% sales tax.
        So I still can't figure out how we pay double wages but get cheaper fast food.

        Andrew
        No - even fast food costs more there...

        Cost Of Living Comparison Between Australia And United States
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8460386].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author garyv
        Originally Posted by rondo View Post

        Only weeks ago the dollars were equal so the exchange rate is mostly irelevant.

        Yes everything here costs more, except fast food!!
        Plus, our prices include 10% sales tax.
        So I still can't figure out how we pay double wages but get cheaper fast food.

        Andrew

        You have to pay more because your cost of living is higher and your dollar is worth less.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8460391].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author rondo
          Originally Posted by garyv View Post

          You have to pay more because your cost of living is higher and your dollar is worth less.
          That doesn't explain how our fast food is the same price as yours.
          Also our dollar has actually been worth MORE than yours for the last 3 years, until 2 months ago.
          Signature
          Online courses
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8460496].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by rondo View Post

            That doesn't explain how our fast food is the same price as yours.
            Also our dollar has actually been worth MORE than yours for the last 3 years, until 2 months ago.
            EXCHANGE RATES ARE MEANINGLESS! They mean something ONLY when you are EXCHANGING!!!!!!!!

            MANY say, and they have for YEARS, that Australia has better meat and milk! They are LESS LIKELY to IMPORT! So OF COURSE the food is better, and prices similar.

            Comparing australian minimum wage for 20 year olds.(REMEMBER, the people saying the minimum wage in australia is $15+ are LYING! It is true ONLY if you are 20 or higher), to the average wage in australia, and the minimum wage in the US(For ALL ages) to the average wage in the US, and using that as a normalizer, Mcdonalds employees actually make a little LESS in australia!

            AGAIN, if you talk exchange rates, calculation may be meaningless before you can publish them! But we are TRYING to compare LIKE FOR LIKE!

            Still, australia is NOTHING like the US in this case! The government is very different. Apparently it is trusted more. They don't but into everyone elses business. The currency is different and is generally valued on its OWN merits! They probably import less food. The insurance would be different anyway. the new insurance, for example, covers sex change operations. Does the australian insurance? How were their hospitals created? Is there a company in australia as crazy as the FDA? A LOT of things in the US make ALL medical supplies and dispensers more expensive. Sometimes UNBELIEVABLY SO!

            Are you going to say hotels should cost less because they do in monopoly? How about because they did so many years ago? It makes about as much sense as comparing the US to Australia.

            When the minimum wage in the US was around $5, the minimum wage in Denmark was about 70DK! So should WE pay people $70? HEY, taxes were about DOUBLE what they were here! Should we DOUBLE taxes? BTW those are VERY close ****REAL**** numbers!

            OK, time to NORMALIZE! The exchange rate was about 7:1, so they were paid approximately $10/hour! OK, MAYBE we should DOUBLE the MINIMUM WAGE? *****NOT SO FAST*****! The taxes were about DOUBLE! SO, $10/2=$5! So they made about as much as the average american! BTW Danish people DO pay extra tax through VAT, etc... and there are some sin taxes, so maybe americans make a bit more.

            HEY, prices in Japan are probably a bit more than ONE HUNDRED times what they are here! The exchange rate is something like 100:1, and I don't know about taxes or relative wages. HEY, I didn't even figure in Australian taxes. Then again, australian or american, I compared the wages to average. Are you going to get EVERYONE raises? If not, it will be unfair and will likely happen ANYWAY! If you DO, inflation happens and it is as if you did NOTHING! When I was a kid, $7.25 an hour was a lot. When my parents were little, a TENTH of that was probably a good wage. Inflation is a GIVEN! It is why people make SO much today and STILL aren't happy.

            And the UNSKILLED jobs will be the FIRST to disappear! I wrote one little program one time, and it put several out of work.(It was simply a simple report to print picking tickets) Another reduced a department to 4 from 21, and they did MORE business!(A simple document management program) One program I wrote allows ONE person at the push of a button to do more than used to require a whole office of people working long hours.(pooled mortgages)

            Automats could EASILY replace many fast food places. HEY, ever see "back to the future"? When could have done something similar in 1980 and likely WILL in the future.

            So doesn't it make sense to try to move AWAY from those jobs?

            Steve
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8460592].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Sumit Menon
            Originally Posted by rondo View Post

            That doesn't explain how our fast food is the same price as yours.
            Also our dollar has actually been worth MORE than yours for the last 3 years, until 2 months ago.
            Fill me in here somebody...

            Minimum wage in Australia = ??
            McD employees make = $15+

            Minimum wage in USA = ??
            McD employees make = ??

            I'd ask the question on Quora.com where hopefully some economist has an answer to why there is a disparity.

            Sumit.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8460649].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author seasoned
              Originally Posted by Sumit Menon View Post

              Fill me in here somebody...

              Minimum wage in Australia = ??
              For junior employees, the minimum rates are:
              Under 16 years of age $5.87
              At 16 years of age $7.55
              At 17 years of age $9.22
              At 18 years of age $10.90
              At 19 years of age $13.17
              At 20 years of age $15.59

              McD employees make = $15+
              That is AVERAGE!!!!! They likely get minimum wage to start. The lowest rung people MAY get raises. Most higher rung ones start at a higher wage.

              Minimum wage in USA = ??
              FEDERAL minimum, the absolute minimum paid for almost all jobs, is $7.25. 7.25 indexed to the relative average wages is equivalent to $9.06AUD!!!!!! So that is almost what australians that are 17 have to make. The minimum wage was NOT intended to be for people that are 18+. MANY states have HIGHER minimums. http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/america.htm

              BTW the US federal minimum wage apparently is likely to soon increase to $9. THAT would be equivalent to $11.25AUD or HIGHER than the minmum wage in australia for an 18 year old!

              McD employees make = ??
              It really doesn't matter, or mean anything, since many DON'T get minimum wage!

              I'd ask the question on Quora.com where hopefully some economist has an answer to why there is a disparity.

              Sumit.
              Why should ECONOMISTS have anything meaningful to say? If you compare an apple to an orange, a 5yo could tell you they are VERY different. The most knowledgeable person on the planet couldn't tell you all the ways they are, or anything much more meaningful than that 5yo. Australia and the US *****ARE***** very different! Oh yeah, the people may be the same race, mostly get along, have similar original customs and sensibilities, and have a currency called a dollar, and eat similar foods, and have similar clothes, and speak dialects of english, They have similar buildings and technology, but that is about where the similarites END!

              And let's look at some of those similarities.

              Customs, etc? I bet the average Australian is shaking their head at all the garbage going on in the US.

              Currency? Their dollar is DIFFERENT. It has NO real ties to the US dollar. As I indicated, the average wage is DIFFERENT! MOST Americans in the top 100 got there through the stock market. Australias richest person is the 100th richest in the world. BTW SHE is campaigning to be excluded from the minimum wage. For the record, I said when I heard about that here that she was NUTS! WHO would be a miner for $2/day anyway?

              Food? Can you say VEGAMITE? It IS a different diet.

              Clothes? I bet they don't have some of the crazy garbage WE have?

              English? Their dialect is a LOT closer to british, and it is possible for an australian and american to talk normally and not understand one another. There are videos on youtube talking about that. HECK, one australian mentioned how the word thong means a different thing in the US. When I was a kid, thong DID refer to sandals, like it does in Australia.

              But those are the similarities. HECK, hospitals likely see a different mix of problems. The government works differently. They have different regulations.

              Steve
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8461574].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    Here's hundreds of actual economists saying a gradual rise in the min wage won't destroy jobs or ignite inflation.

    http://www.epi.org/files/page/-/pdf/..._wage_2006.pdf
    Signature

    "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8465087].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      Here's hundreds of actual economists saying a gradual rise in the min wage won't destroy jobs or ignite inflation.

      http://www.epi.org/files/page/-/pdf/..._wage_2006.pdf

      WHY do you STILL believe people that have been proven wrong tens of thousands of times before? A gradual rise may only raise inflation gradually. In the END, it will be IDENTICAL! OH WELL, is 107% increase in less than 1 year REALLY gradual?

      Steve
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8465474].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      Here's hundreds of actual economists saying a gradual rise in the min wage won't destroy jobs or ignite inflation.

      http://www.epi.org/files/page/-/pdf/..._wage_2006.pdf
      How many of them own a business?
      Signature

      Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8465864].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
        Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

        How many of them own a business?


        How many business people studied to be an economist?


        Signature

        "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8467918].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          According to estimates there are about 15,200 economists as of 2012 - and half of them work for the govt.

          A businessman who doesn't understand the economics of his business - won't be in business long.
          Signature
          Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world changes forever for that one dog
          ***
          One secret to happiness is to let every situation be
          what it is instead of what you think it should be.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8468150].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

          How many business people studied to be an economist?


          Dr. McCoy - I'm a Doctor not a... - YouTube
          I guess you're right. After all, how many doctors could create blood in a lab?

          Then again, isn't the point about money supposed to be that you CAN'T really make it? HECK, an attempt to make it is a FELONY! The secret service, treasury, FBI, etc... could be knocking down your door.

          I mean SERIOUSLY, some of your statements lately. BUSINESS people that have large corporations know more about business and the way it works than economists that have never run a business. Economists SUPPOSEDLY study businesses. The problem is that they obviously HAVEN'T! If logic, others, businesses, credit agencies, etc... think that money is money and works the same way for the government, isn't it logical that it does?

          OK, how about THIS? The country depends on bonds to fund operations, and THEIR value is controlled by those credit agencies! OH, you STILL don't believe? OK, the credit agencies, if they feel the credit is bad, cause the country to have to pay a higher rate!

          REALLY? You STILL don't believe? OK! Then if they can pay a LOT more, and money REALLY doesn't matter, WHY do they collect taxes? Gee, you just can't win here!

          Steve
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8468187].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
          Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

          How many business people studied to be an economist?
          If I recall correctly, when someone cites scientists that don't believe in global warming, you like to point out they're not climatologists. If that's a valid argument, so is the argument that economists aren't business owners.

          Oh wait, I forgot, you only support theories when the theories support your world view. :rolleyes:
          Signature

          Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8469211].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
            Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

            If I recall correctly, when someone cites scientists that don't believe in global warming, you like to point out they're not climatologists. If that's a valid argument, so is the argument that economists aren't business owners.

            Oh wait, I forgot, you only support theories when the theories support your world view. :rolleyes:

            Perhaps you have me mixed up with Kurt regarding the climatologists etc. I probably gave him a thank you on the matter. ( this is no slight towards Kurt )


            But...

            If it seems to make sense, if I feel it's the right thing to do and the numbers back it up then I'm gung ho!
            Signature

            "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8470502].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    BTW I don't know EXACTLY when it happened, but after 2009, at least for a WHILE, supposedly the standard monthly minimum wage was 1242.86 Though the HOURLY wage is still the same, full time was redefined, and there is an UNREASONABLE fee attached for people exceeding it, so the standard monthly minimum wage is now 901.07! That is a LOSS of 341.79/month with the SAME hourly wage!

    If it were raised to the current $9 suggested, the standard minimum wage would be $1118.57! YEP folks! AFTER the raise, they get a $124.29 pay CUT!!!!!! The stupid fee that created all this garbage would, at THIS point, amount to a $4.83/hour tax on the business. That would bring the pay related expense to the business, NOT counting their SS payment, to $13.83/hour AFTER the $9.00 increase, assuming they still had to pay it. The cost, which forced the changes in all the policies, was $10.75/hour, so it is a pretty good bet that OTHER changes will occur, people will get laid off, etc... as the minimum wage approaches that amount.

    Steve
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8466027].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author waterotter
    Fast food chains/franchises may be able to stay afloat, albeit probably not worth it. Smaller "Ma & Pa" fast food restaurants will most likely go under.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8466228].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Fazal Mayar
    i hope they get a raise, its a lot of work working in a fast food. You can ask any mcdonalds employee
    Signature

    Blogger at RicherOrNot.com (Make Money online blog but also promoting ethical internet marketing)

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8466867].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by Fazal Mayar View Post

      i hope they get a raise, its a lot of work working in a fast food. You can ask any mcdonalds employee
      But there are more of them, and there is less risk and skill. ALSO, CPA, TEACHER, ENGINEER were intended to be CAREERS FOR ADULTS! MCDONALDS ****WAS NOT****!

      How about THIS..... They get 7.90, which brings it in line with the last 23 years. If they want more, they can ********INSTANTLY******** get a 50% RAISE without costing ANYONE a penny! Food will cost the same, employers will actually spend a little LESS, and inflation won't be affected! Simply stop that stupid SURCHARGE, or remove the senseless definition of "full time", and they can work 40 hours like everyone else! Without that, people will be reduced to 29 hours or LESS! Most businesses hiring people for 29 hours/WEEK will need others for like 11 hours/WEEK(That is like 2 hours a day!). When I was in school, as I recall, it was 6-7 hours. Does it really make sense to have work be 5-6 hours? BTW, I am there, for most jobs, if there are no problems, 8-9. Some days, it is LONGER!

      I say like 8-9(NOT COUNTING LUNCH-COUNTING LUNCH).

      Steve
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8466920].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        I don't think Boloco is that great an example - it's a small chain and regional. I think Chipotle's is a better one. They have the growth - and average starting wage is about 20k a year. They hire full and part time - pay benefits and 2 week vacation - and promote from within.

        But - they also do full interviews with lots of questions - expect applicants to be well groomed and neatly dressed - have good verbal communication skills - require a high school diploma and they do background checks. They also have an extensive training program for new hires. The one I visit when I go north is mainly staffed with college students.
        Signature
        Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world changes forever for that one dog
        ***
        One secret to happiness is to let every situation be
        what it is instead of what you think it should be.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8467041].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author travlinguy
    I'd be in favor of active duty military personnel getting a raise. An army enlistee (E-1) receives $18,194 a year. Many newly enlisted military families are on food stamps. Why is it someone who literally puts his/her life on the line is treated so badly?
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8468195].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    BTW DW.DE, on their german site, has an article that translates "Living in the city....An expensive pleasure". They said that rents are rising so rapidly that more and more people can't afford it. They are calling for more public housing!

    Still think the conomy is going so well? This SAME thing happened in 1929! In 1929, things were more separate, and they let it run its course. NOW, they are manipulating things. Still, with all the bad evidence, it is a bit scary. The manipulation is failing and if it stops before things improve... IT WONT BE GOOD!

    Steve
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8470448].message }}

Trending Topics