Range Rover runs over motorcyles after getting surrounded on freeway in New York

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Not sure what led up to this road rage in NYC but the Range Rover guy was trapped by dozens of motorcyles so he ran over a couple. The motorcyclists chase him down and smash the windows.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7IzS-WjPd8

http://jalopnik.com/everything-you-n...31015/@maxread


My question: Why did the Range Rover ever get off the freeway? He had to know they would chase him and could easily surround him at a stoplight? Maybe he thought he could outrun them--but in one of the boroughs? Doesn't make sense. He should have stayed on the expressway and called it in to the cops or Highway Patrol.
  • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
    You might want to read the whole story.

    In a nutshell: one of the bikers pulled in front of him and slammed his brakes. The driver almost got stopped in time, but tapped the back of the bike. The man had his wife and child with him in the car. The bikers started defacing his vehicle - scratching it, kicking. As there were quite a few of them, the driver was quite rightfully afraid for his and his family's safety. The bikers had surrounded him, so to get away, he drove over a couple of bikes.

    They followed him, he tried to get away by taking an exit off the freeway. The bikers followed and the events in the video followed.

    Ask me, he should have ran over more bikes than he did, along with a few of the bikers.
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

      You might want to read the whole story.

      In a nutshell: one of the bikers pulled in front of him and slammed his brakes. The driver almost got stopped in time, but tapped the back of the bike. The man had his wife and child with him in the car. The bikers started defacing his vehicle - scratching it, kicking. As there were quite a few of them, the driver was quite rightfully afraid for his and his family's safety. The bikers had surrounded him, so to get away, he drove over a couple of bikes.

      They followed him, he tried to get away by taking an exit off the freeway. The bikers followed and the events in the video followed.

      Ask me, he should have ran over more bikes than he did, along with a few of the bikers.
      Steve I've rode motorcycles on and off for my whole life.
      I've seen first hand the way some people in cars treat bikers. I had someone hit me a couple years ago because he didn't have a stop sign on a side street and therefore didn't have to stop when turning onto the main street. In Fl. I had a tourist almost take me out because he was trying to edge out into traffic.
      But from everything I heard and the videos I saw on this incident, if I was driving that van I probably would of done the same thing.
      He just nudged the bikes rear tire. The worst he deserved was a tongue lashing and 'maybe' a call to the police.
      Those bikers where way out of line.
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      • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
        Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

        Steve I've rode motorcycles on and off for my whole life.
        I've seen first hand the way some people in cars treat bikers. I had someone hit me a couple years ago because he didn't have a stop sign on a side street and therefore didn't have to stop when turning onto the main street. In Fl. I had a tourist almost take me out because he was trying to edge out into traffic.
        But from everything I heard and the videos I saw on this incident, if I was driving that van I probably would of done the same thing.
        He just nudged the bikes rear tire. The worst he deserved was a tongue lashing and 'maybe' a call to the police.
        Those bikers where way out of line.
        I have too, Thom, both spent most of my life riding and been hit. Not a fun experience. Guy coming the opposite way turned left right into me. Me and bike went ass over teakettle for quite a ways. Luckily it was a downtown street and we were both going relatively slow or it would have had an entirely different outcome.

        The accounts I read pretty much showed the original bike creating the incident by pulling in front of the car and stopping abruptly.

        Bunch of thugs is all they are.
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          • Profile picture of the author ThomM
            Originally Posted by FailFailFailSucceed View Post

            You are passing judgement without being there.

            Not really the biker way right Steve.

            Plenty could have gone on before that vid started.
            I started riding in 68. I've rode in "outlaw" clubs and with them. I've also rode with non-club groups. These punks aren't bikers.
            Just riding a motorcycle doesn't make you a biker.
            Here's some more videos from one of those "wannabes" showing what a bunch of asshats they are.
            LiveLeak.com - More footage previous to Range Rover incident
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              • Profile picture of the author garyv
                Originally Posted by FailFailFailSucceed View Post

                You have ridden in "outlaw" clubs huh?

                And you weren't an asshat?

                So you were a wanna be? Because if you are a 1% and you aren't an asshat, you are a wanna be right?

                That point I am making is that you can't judge if you weren't there.

                I find that alot of peeps talk big on thele here interwebs.
                Did you not see the link he provided? It has plenty of footage- so yeah... He was there and he can judge. They were idiots. I have a feeling you ride in one of these idiot herds... am I right?
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                  • Profile picture of the author garyv
                    Originally Posted by FailFailFailSucceed View Post

                    Wow the judgment police are out in full force today.

                    Name calling, judgement, you are ripe with it aren't you.

                    Relax Gary, awful aggressive aren't you?

                    I'm saying I wasn't there I'm not passing judgement and you twist that around to I'm on the bikers side?

                    I never called you a name... That's the name you gave yourself. And if I recall - you were the one calling someone a "wannabe asshat" in a previous post. And yes we can pass judgement on these idiots... there's enough footage to do that. It's called physical proof of idiocy.
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              • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                Originally Posted by FailFailFailSucceed View Post

                You have ridden in "outlaw" clubs huh?

                And you weren't an asshat?

                So you were a wanna be? Because if you are a 1% and you aren't an asshat, you are a wanna be right?

                That point I am making is that you can't judge if you weren't there.

                I find that alot of peeps talk big on thele here interwebs.
                Are you calling all 1%ers asshats?
                I may not of been at this incident, but there are plenty of videos showing their actions.
                No we didn't act like these jerks when we rode.
                Still don't act like those jerks when I ride today.
                It was then (and still is) a case of you don't bother me. I won't bother you. Drawing negative attention was drawing unwanted attention.
                Sorry I got your panties in a bunch for not supporting a bunch of jerks who are doing nothing more then giving real bikers a bad name.
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          • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
            Originally Posted by FailFailFailSucceed View Post

            You are passing judgement without being there.

            Not really the biker way right Steve.

            Plenty could have gone on before that vid started.
            I hope you are not saying it is OK for the bikers to do what they did.

            It does not matter if the Rover driver did do something to po the bikers.
            It does not give the bikers a pass to be violent asses.

            You don't brake hard in front of someone just because they made you mad.
            And the rest of what the bikers' did.

            No driving incident should get this out of control.

            Should not have ended up this way at all. The Rover driver got scared for his life and the life of his wife and kid. He was way outnumbered and maybe thought any one of them could have had a gun.

            Dan
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              If a swarm of killer bees is on your tail a fly swatter won't do you much good.
              But a can of bug spray the size of a land rover could do a lot of splatting, couldn't it?

              If I had child in my car - I'd take out as many bikers as necessary to get away....and I wouldn't have stopped at all.

              If authorities are smart - they will charge this as a hate crime and put these guys away for a while.
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              • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                But a can of bug spray the size of a land rover could do a lot of splatting, couldn't it?

                If I had child in my car - I'd take out as many bikers as necessary to get away....and I wouldn't have stopped at all.

                If authorities are smart - they will charge this as a hate crime and put these guys away for a while.
                The law forbids charging it as a hate crime if those targeted aren't a protected class. If that is not clear, or both are of a protected class, it gets harder. If it WERE charged so, the one in the SUV would likely be found guilty, if not for the whole surrounding problem caused by the bikers.

                BTW Most drivers probably give motorcycle riders MORE space. I do! I give them maybe 25-50% more space than usual. and I guess most would call me overly generous there. MANY destroy the act by cutting in front of me, or tailgating. Of course, if they stop, you really can't keep the space.

                Motorcycle riders are generally required to reciprocate, and stagger their formation. They ARE licensed AND, if held to the law, failure to do so can mean license sanctions and higher insurance rates.

                YEAH, I KNOW! Some don't care one bit, would give chase in either fashion, etc.... Still, that is against the law and should count HEAVILY against them in any trial.

                Heck, I have had friends that were bikers and nice. It is a shame that some people care SO little about themselves and society that they would take such risks just to torment others. Frankly, such people don't deserve one PENNY!

                Steve
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              • Profile picture of the author garyv
                Originally Posted by FailFailFailSucceed View Post


                If the guy driving the range rover did something stupid and the bikers reacted the way they did, it definitely doesn't make the bikers right; but it does make the guy driving the suv wrong.
                Nope- You could tell by the video that he was going to get a beating either way. So you may as well run one over trying to get away - or get your family out of there. One things for sure - there's at least one less in the idiot herd now. Let's hope that the rest of NY can do their share to thin out this herd.
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                  • Profile picture of the author garyv
                    Originally Posted by FailFailFailSucceed View Post

                    Better be careful. Sounds like you are calling for violence on bikers. Aren't you one? do you really want someone passing judgement on you simply because you are on two wheels?
                    Yes - if you ever see me in that herd of idiots PLease please PLEASE run me over!

                    Ps- it's becoming quite apparent that you haven't fully lived up to your name yet.
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                      • Profile picture of the author garyv
                        Originally Posted by FailFailFailSucceed View Post


                        If you are trying to be mean wouldn't I just be the "failfailfail" part so far in which case I WOULD have fully lived up to my name? hehe
                        Wow...

                        Any way, no hard feelings. If you don't see anything wrong with what this herd is doing that's your prerogative. I wouldn't suggest trying it though, if you want to live long enough to get to the "Succeed" part of your name.
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                          • Profile picture of the author garyv
                            Originally Posted by FailFailFailSucceed View Post

                            Hey Gary, you don't listen very well.

                            Let me be very clear.

                            What this group of bikers did was WRONG. i have a huge problem with what they did.
                            Wrong - You've been saying this whole time that you refuse to pass judgement. How can you refuse to pass judgement and then now say that what they did was wrong? Are you now deciding to pass judgement? - Of course you're deleting all of your comments - so I'm going to bow out of this one. You've beat'n yourself up enough. I'm gonna move along and get some work done. I have some 99% ers to pay for.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          This is being described as a biker "stunt group" with a gang mentality.
          Not real "bikers"but wannabe tough guys suffering from the "YouTube Effect". Anthing to take a movie - get views - get attention.

          "They had been riding all over the city being a menace," said Cynthia Williams, 59, of Harlem, who saw a pack of bikers on W. 145th St. more than an hour after the attack on Lien.
          So why were they still riding? According to reports, police had blocked some streets to keep this group from accessing downtown areas. So why were they still riding at all?

          One of the better news accounts of this:
          PICTURED: Wealthy couple attacked by wild pack of motorcyclists after harrowing 4-mile chase on the West Side Highway following fender bender turned hit-and-run

          Police arrested 15 bikers and confiscated 55 motorcycles during incidents Sunday unrelated to the Lien attack, Kelly said. He said 68 summonses were issued.
          I'd say police have more work to do and more bikes to confiscate.
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    • Profile picture of the author Curthel
      I think, maybe it will be cruel, but the driver of motorbike was right. Sometimes stupid games on the road with motorcycles causes such situation. It is good that Range wasnt damages too much, cuz then the owner neede to deliver a car to nearest service center. Idk how I could make, but i dont think Range was wrong.
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    I don't blame the Rover driver one bit.

    Have to be a complete idiot to brake hard on a bike in front of a heavy vehicle.

    I do wonder what actually started the whole incident.

    The video is over six minutes and you don't see one cop.

    It would be really sad if even one of the bikers did not have
    the sense to realize that this was getting out of control
    and call law enforcement.

    Dan
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  • Profile picture of the author garyv
    Wow... I couldn't hardly watch that. If I had a kid in the car and thugs were behaving like that, I'm afraid I'd have turned that SUV into a skull crushing wine-press.
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  • Profile picture of the author Clyde Dennis
    What on Earth could possibly have made all that necessary? On both sides.

    Would I be making any one feel disrespected if suggest that folks need to calm the hell down?

    It seems everybody wants to demand respect, while displaying actions that scream I'm not worthy of your respect.

    Sometimes I just don't get humans!
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    • Originally Posted by Clyde Dennis View Post

      What on Earth could possibly have made all that necessary? On both sides.

      Would I be being making any one feel disrespected if suggest that folks need to calm the hell down?

      It seems everybody wants to demand respect, while displaying actions that scream I'm not worthy of your respect.

      Sometimes I just don't get humans!
      Well said.
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  • Profile picture of the author garyv
    I ride a bike as well - but never in a swarm of idiots like that. One plow through that crowd would have brought up the IQ level of the entire state of NY by several percentage points.
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  • Profile picture of the author Brian John
    kept crossing my mind while watching that clip...

    Didn't ask for a dime. Two dollars.

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    • Profile picture of the author garyv
      Originally Posted by Brian John View Post

      kept crossing my mind while watching that clip...

      Didn't ask for a dime
      . Two dollars.

      LOL - I love that movie.
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  • It's interesting how at one point the guy gets off his bike and comes back to try to yank the door open, and leaves the path open for the Range Rover to gun it. He sees the opening like Barry Sanders, and runs through it.
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  • Profile picture of the author whland
    Yeah. Those bikers were in the wrong. They shouldn't have chased the guy down. They were putting other peoples lives in danger by chasing the vehicle.

    No good was gonna come of them chasing down the vehicle.

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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
    Is the Range Rover ok?
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  • Profile picture of the author bluecoyotemedia
    If I was in my truck with my family I would have done the same thing but head directly to the police station
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    • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
      Originally Posted by bluecoyotemedia View Post

      If I was in my truck with my family I would have done the same thing but head directly to the police station
      Or, stay on the highway until law enforcement catches up. Stay on the cell phone with dispatch and give your location updates...
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      • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
        Originally Posted by bizgrower View Post

        Or, stay on the highway until law enforcement catches up. Stay on the cell phone with dispatch and give your location updates...
        Quite often, law enforcement shows up just in time to mop up the blood. We're responsible for our own personal safety.

        Added later:
        We now have reason to believe that some police officers witnessed the attack and did nothing. This is case in point that we are responsible for our own safety. See Kay's post on the third page for a link.
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        • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
          Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

          Quite often, law enforcement shows up just in time to mop up the blood. We're responsible for our own personal safety.
          Law enforcement does respond to serve and protect. I chased some
          guys away from stealing my car stereo and then called the police.
          The police arrived fast enough that if I had called them first, they
          might have caught the thieves. They told me I should have called first.

          Another time, back in the day, we had someone chase us after my
          friend flipped them off. We got word out by CB radio and then
          came across an accident on the highway and stopped by a
          State Patrol car. The officer knew who we were by the vehicle
          we were driving and said he would have responded if it was not
          for the accident he was attending. The guys chasing us exited
          the highway when they saw the flashing lights.

          When I was a courier, I had luck calling in drunk drivers or road
          ragers and dispatch stayed with me long enough to get a location
          and direction and description.

          If I had been driving the Rover and did not panic, I would have
          tried to keep moving fast enough that the bikers did not stop
          me. And I would have tried to get to a police station or stay
          on the highway and try to get law enforcement there. This
          group of bikers was on the police radar already.

          Dan
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          • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
            Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

            Quite often, law enforcement shows up just in time to mop up the blood. We're responsible for our own personal safety.
            Originally Posted by bizgrower View Post

            Law enforcement does respond to serve and protect. I chased some
            guys away from stealing my car stereo and then called the police.
            The police arrived fast enough that if I had called them first, they
            might have caught the thieves. They told me I should have called first.
            You can both be right. Response times can vary widely in different locations and circumstances.
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            • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
              Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

              You can both be right. Response times can vary widely in different locations and circumstances.
              Precisely. Additionally, an individual's response depends on the severity of the situation. Someone stealing your stereo? Call the cops. You're in no immediate danger. Someone threatening you and your family with immediate harm? I'm not waiting for the police to show up. I have no plan to be a helpless lemming.
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  • Profile picture of the author DubDubDubDot
    I'm a strong advocate of walking away from situations before they boil over. All it takes is one side to do this and the situation ends right there.

    Let's focus on what triggered the event.

    You can say what you want to about the bikers. There's a lot of them. Probably only a few looking to cause trouble that day. So one of them gets in front of the SUV and starts going slow as a means of screwing with traffic.

    Not a big deal. The SUV should have left enough stopping distance whether that means slowing down to a crawl or stopping entirely and just letting them pass by.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      So - you didn't watch the video either...right?
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      • Profile picture of the author DubDubDubDot
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        So - you didn't watch the video either...right?
        There is no indication that the SUV was being targeted for a carjacking if that's what you are getting at. We can also conclude that the SUV's occupants didn't feel this way either since they didn't lock the doors.

        But remember, what I wrote in the post above applies to before the accident.
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    • Profile picture of the author garyv
      Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

      Probably only a few looking to cause trouble that day.
      Everyone seems to be overlooking the other link ThomM provided that shows just about every one of them were looking to cause trouble that day. Here's that link again.
      LiveLeak.com - More footage previous to Range Rover incident

      Watch the other videos - they were ALL acting like idiots. That included running lights, blocking other traffic at intersections, riding on the wrong side of the road - and even on the sidewalks, and weaving in and out of traffic at an extremely unsafe distance. -

      I don't care what kind of car you drive. If I'm driving a bike I guarantee I could make you hit the back of my bike by swerving in front of you and slamming on my brakes. That's what happened.
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      • Profile picture of the author DubDubDubDot
        Originally Posted by garyv View Post

        Watch the other videos - they were ALL acting like idiots. That included running lights, blocking other traffic at intersections, riding on the wrong side of the road - and even on the sidewalks, and weaving in and out of traffic at an extremely unsafe distance. -
        This is irrelevant to the specific incident in question unless you can connect the black SUV to it and show that he had a reason to fear for his life. I don't see it. Perhaps I am missing something.

        To me, bikes zooming around your SUV when you are going at a relatively slow speed does not equal a fear for your life. The guy should have just stopped, let them go by and then called 911 to report reckless driving.
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        • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
          Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

          This is irrelevant to the specific incident in question unless you can connect the black SUV to it and show that he had a reason to fear for his life. I don't see it. Perhaps I am missing something.

          To me, bikes zooming around your SUV when you are going at a relatively slow speed does not equal a fear for your life. The guy should have just stopped, let them go by and then called 911 to report reckless driving.
          When the bike brake blocked him. A bike has a much, much shorter stopping distance than
          an SUV.

          He was greatly outnumbered. A threat in and of itself. Can't hope for reasonable people in a group like that.

          Later, when they surrounded him and began to threaten him and tried to open his car door.

          When the Rover did get stopped in the traffic off the high way, the driver got beat up.

          Dan
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          • Profile picture of the author DubDubDubDot
            For the record.... I don't think the SUV driver should be charged. I'm not sticking up for the bikers.

            They lost any hope of public support by slashing the SUV driver's face. They should have just followed the SUV until police arrived. Then they could at least say "Yeah, we were having a little too much fun that day and we did dent his SUV after he rear ended one of our guys. But he had no reason to plow through us." Then perhaps public opinion moves somewhat towards this being road rage on the part of the SUV driver. Who knows?

            Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

            The SUV driver, an Asian American man driving with his wife and 5-month-old baby, was reportedly beaten into a coma.
            The SUV driver was treated and released. The guy who got hit by the SUV is the one paralyzed and in an induced coma.

            The whole thing is just stupid.
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            • Profile picture of the author ThomM
              Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

              For the record.... I don't think the SUV driver should be charged. I'm not sticking up for the bikers.

              They lost any hope of public support by slashing the SUV driver's face. They should have just followed the SUV until police arrived. Then they could at least say "Yeah, we were having a little too much fun that day and we did dent his SUV after he rear ended one of our guys. But he had no reason to plow through us." Then perhaps public opinion moves somewhat towards this being road rage on the part of the SUV driver. Who knows?


              The SUV driver was treated and released. The guy who got hit by the SUV is the one paralyzed and in an induced coma.

              The whole thing is just stupid.
              Yep that.
              I've been hearing a lot of talk on mc forums that the guy who was hit by the SUV got what he deserved, I disagree. From what I saw in the video he wasn't a direct threat to the driver or his family.
              But with the guy who braked in front of the SUV trying to open the drivers door and others coming at him, I can understand the driver fleeing the scene.
              From all the videos I saw, I still say they where acting like asshats and had no regard for anyone else on the road or sidewalks for that matter.
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            • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
              Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

              <snip>


              The SUV driver was treated and released. The guy who got hit by the SUV is the one paralyzed and in an induced coma.

              The whole thing is just stupid.
              It is all definitely stupid. I actually deleted my post here because it was also really stupid. Thanks for preserving a bit of it.
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              • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                he wasn't a direct threat
                This man had his wife and young child in that car.

                Goes back to "the company you keep". If you choose to ride with people who act like that - you may be the one who has consequences. I have no sympathy for people like that....none.
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                • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                  Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                  This man had his wife and young child in that car.

                  Goes back to "the company you keep". If you choose to ride with people who act like that - you may be the one who has consequences. I have no sympathy for people like that....none.
                  I understand that Kay.
                  I'm just saying it didn't look like he was one of the ones attacking the SUV.
                  In a group like that not all are going to act or react the same or are they going to approve of the acts of the ones getting violent.
                  If he was off his bike approaching the SUV in a violent manner, that's one thing. But it appeared that he had just pulled up and was seeing what was going on. I believe he has a wife and kid also, so he may have been the voice of reason.
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        • Profile picture of the author garyv
          Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

          This is irrelevant to the specific incident in question unless you can connect the black SUV to it and show that he had a reason to fear for his life. I don't see it. Perhaps I am missing something.
          No - it's the exact same group - and same helmet-cam videotaping. It shows their activities leading up to this incident.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by garyv View Post

        I don't care what kind of car you drive. If I'm driving a bike I guarantee I could make you hit the back of my bike by swerving in front of you and slamming on my brakes. That's what happened.
        OF COURSE! It is ALSO a nice way to have most of your brain spill onto the road!

        Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
        Originally Posted by garyv View Post

        I don't care what kind of car you drive. If I'm driving a bike I guarantee I could make you hit the back of my bike by swerving in front of you and slamming on my brakes. That's what happened.
        Yep! Don't even need a bike for that.

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  • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
    Who are those bikers? They seem quite experienced in this kind of activity.
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    • Profile picture of the author Aussie_Al
      Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

      Who are those bikers? They seem quite experienced in this kind of activity.
      I have seen these guys on the west side highway before - as some one said above they are not 1%ers or part of a bike club.

      When I saw them they were driving all over the highway cutting in and out of traffic and popping wheelies - you could be in a traffic jam and one of these guys could easily clip you . they were out looking for trouble for sure.

      Here is what happens when you brake check a car in Russia

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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      man seen punching the rear window of Alexian Lien's Range Rover
      His young daughter was sitting in that back seat.

      There is now an argument between Mieses' family and authorities about whether Lien will be charged with a crime. "He just ran into my son," Mieses' mother told the Daily News. "Where's the justice for my son? He's never going to walk again."
      Bullhockey!!! This was not an incident of motorist "road rage" - this was bullying and a reaction from fear of being harmed.

      Within 24 hrs the biker's family had claimed "won't walk again" though doctors have not made that statement so far. They had donation sites set up and were bashing the SUV driver on social media.

      Let's do a reality check here:

      SUV driver was spending the day with his wife and child...minding his own business....driving within the laws on a public road. This man ended up getting stitches and having his car damaged and his family terrorized.

      The biker chose to spend the day with his Stuntz buddies rather than with his wife and child. This man put himself in the situation and got badly hurt through his own choices.

      The bikers were acting like bullies and it's no more acceptable in adults than it is with kids.


      Just found some background on the two men - a rapper and a computer guy.

      http://www.heavy.com/news/2013/10/je...ad-rage-video/

      http://www.heavy.com/news/2013/10/al...e-viral-video/
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
    The mother is just as nuts as the guy that purposely caused the accident on the highway by looking behind the motorcycle at the SUV & hitting the brakes hard. It's clearly a lack of common sense passed down from one generation to the next.

    It's not a smart idea to throw yourself in front of a 5,000 pound vehicle on a highway, it might hurt.

    Good to see the law on the SUV drivers side. There's no way any sane person would sit idle on a highway while 30 bikers are destroying the vehicle with his wife & child inside the vehicle.

    There's a thing called self preservation, it's an instinct that most humans have.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Maybe people are smarter at times than I give them credit for. The big push to show the biker as an innocent, sympathetic figure doesn't seem to be catching on.

      The article linked below was a writer trying to capitalize on the "poor biker" story - but the comments from readers are not supportive.

      9 Jay Meezee Photos - Range Rover Hit Edwin Mieses Jr: Paralyzed, Coma
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      • Profile picture of the author yukon
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        Maybe people are smarter at times than I give them credit for. The big push to show the biker as an innocent, sympathetic figure doesn't seem to be catching on.
        Without that video proof the whole incident might have took a different turn, 30 bikers word against two adults in the SUV.

        Good thing for the SUV driver the video was made public.
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  • Profile picture of the author Richard Tunnah
    I'm not a father but a uncle to a number of young nephews. If that was one of my nephews in the back seat I'd want to get out of there asap. It's human nature surely?
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    • Profile picture of the author DubDubDubDot
      Originally Posted by Richard Tunnah View Post

      If that was one of my nephews in the back seat I'd want to get out of there asap. It's human nature surely?
      What this is going to keep coming back to is just how much danger he was actually in immediately before hitting the gas. I think it was a very uncomfortable situation at that stage, but I wouldn't call it a dangerous situation that warranted mowing down three bikers without warning.

      If it were me I would have locked the doors, called 911 and waited for police to arrive. He told police that they were vandalizing his car. I would have just sat there upset over what they are doing, but that's what car insurance is for. The option to gas it is still there if things truly boil over.

      My theory at this point is one of two things happened.

      A) Rich guy is pissed off by the actions of underclass bikers. There's a relatively minor accident. They vandalize his car. He develops sudden road rage and mows through them. There's some pretty crazy road rage clips online, so it's possible.

      or most likely....

      B) After they started vandalizing the car, his wife breaks down completely like most females would (few females remain level headed in high stress situations). She is hysterical, screaming for him to GO! GO! GO!, and that combined with the intimidation factor of the bikers caused him to panic and he gassed it.

      We may never know.
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      • Profile picture of the author yukon
        Banned
        Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

        B) After they started vandalizing the car, his wife breaks down completely like most females would (few females remain level headed in high stress situations). She is hysterical, screaming for him to GO! GO! GO!, and that combined with the intimidation factor of the bikers caused him to panic and he gassed it.
        Lol like a grown man all alone wouldn't haul azz while 30 bikers is trying to destroy his vehicle. Only a matter of time before those guys pulled the driver from the car.

        It doesn't matter If anyone panicked, no human is going to sit idle while a mob threatens his/her life.

        Notice the driver didn't try to run over the motorcycles that were a little ways down the road as he passed them trying to escape, he didn't swerve aiming for any cycles, he picked the easiest escape route.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

        If it were me I would have locked the doors, called 911 and waited for police to arrive. He told police that they were vandalizing his car. I would have just sat there upset over what they are doing, but that's what car insurance is for. The option to gas it is still there if things truly boil over.
        Locking the doors doesn't do much. He was NOT in a tank! You CAN'T call 911, since they can't do anything. Oh SURE, it is nice to have a record, and all, but "WAIT FOR THE POLICE"? Are you NUTS? Why bother calling 911? A police officer will probably come over FIRST to give you a ticket for impeding traffic!

        And that is NOT what insurance is for. Insurance is for damage created by others or in an accident. Show this kind of thing ONCE, and most insurance companies will raise your rates substantially for like 3 years. Do it a few times, and you will likely be dropped.

        And how do you KNOW the option is still there? They could start looting and, the slower you go, the greater the chance that they could hurt the vehicle.

        My theory at this point is one of two things happened.

        A) Rich guy is pissed off by the actions of underclass bikers. There's a relatively minor accident. They vandalize his car. He develops sudden road rage and mows through them. There's some pretty crazy road rage clips online, so it's possible.
        WOW! You are calling him RICH? WHY? The vehicle could be borrowed, rented, etc....
        So hatred, based on envy of PERCEIVED class, gets mentioned HERE also?

        Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author trade4861
    This is why we shouldn't allow the ban of high capacity magazines lol. You might just run into a gang of motorcycle drivers.
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Originally Posted by trade4861 View Post

      This is why we shouldn't allow the ban of high capacity magazines lol. You might just run into a gang of motorcycle drivers.
      Right because it would be impossible that the riders may be armed
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      • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
        Okay boys and girls... enough with the pissing contests.

        Has there been any update regarding charges, medical conditions, etc?

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  • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
    Dubdub, they were attempting to open his door. This is a step beyond vandalism. I think it would be a good assumption they weren't trying to get to him to shake his hand. Intent to harm was established.
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    • Profile picture of the author DubDubDubDot
      Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

      Dubdub, they were attempting to open his door. This is a step beyond vandalism. I think it would be a good assumption they weren't trying to get to him to shake his hand. Intent to harm was established.
      That was after he ran over the bikers. He told police that he gassed it because they were damaging his car and he panicked.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        You have no idea what you would do in such a situation unless you were in that situation.

        After they started vandalizing the car, his wife breaks down completely like most females would (few females remain level headed in high stress situations)
        Probably one of the dumbest comments I've read on this forum.
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        • Profile picture of the author DubDubDubDot
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          Probably one of the dumbest comments I've read on this forum.
          Does any man here have a problem with what I said? lol
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          • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
            Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

            Does any man here have a problem with what I said? lol
            I'm a man and I have a problem with that. It is not fair or accurate.
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            • Profile picture of the author DubDubDubDot
              Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

              I'm a man and I have a problem with that. It is not fair or accurate.
              It's actually an evolutionary fact. The female's role is to panic in high stress situations, get the kids and run. While the male brain zones in on the source of the stress and does something about it.

              If the females do not panic, then they do not get the kids away and perhaps they get killed.

              So there you have it. Not exactly politically correct, but it is what it is.
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              • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
                Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

                It's actually an evolutionary fact. The female's role is to panic in high stress situations, get the kids and run. While the male brain zones in on the source of the stress and does something about it.

                If the females do not panic, then they do not get the kids away and perhaps they get killed.

                So there you have it. Not exactly politically correct, but it is what it is.
                My older sister witnessed a motorboat full of partiers crash into a rock. She pulled beside them and it was ugly. They were wounded and bloody. She tended to them with whatever was available, utilizing such things as seat belts to constrict blood flow. She saved their lives. She didn't cry and cower in this high stress situation.

                At a party, a big dude tried to get fresh with other sister. Before I could try to remedy the situation, that dude was writhing on the ground with a broken arm and dislocated shoulder.
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                • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
                  Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

                  At a party, a big dude tried to get fresh with other sister. Before I could try to remedy the situation, that dude was writhing on the ground with a broken arm and dislocated shoulder.
                  Weak bones. I hope you recommended calcium and vitamin D supplements to him.
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          • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
            You were making some good points but totally lost me on your two theories about what happened. Plus, I do have a problem with sexist comments. They make me assume you don't know many women or maybe you just aren't around the right women.

            Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

            Does any man here have a problem with what I said? lol
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            • Profile picture of the author Brian John
              perhaps this has already been mentioned in the thread, but shouldn't he have just have moved to the far right and slowed so as to let the group pass? that's what i probably would have done. i realize that he has the right to be on the road, but with that many bikes just let them go by. perhaps he felt (and rightly so) that he had every right to be there and he's not going to be bullied around in his super tough range rover nor is he going to slow at all when he shouldn't have to. i don't know if this is how it happened but it would surprise me.

              there's this bicycle ride in chicago (any many other cities as well) on the last friday of every month called "critical mass". i've done it a few times and it's a cool experience. u meet downtown at the daley center at 6pm and there are literally a few thousand riders there. it's a nonpolitical event that brings people from all walks of life together for a few hour nonstop preplanned ride (different route every month) through downtown and the nearby neighborhoods. it's a good time. several bikes throughout the pack have speakers attached and are playing music, a common thing to yell to random people you pass is "happy friday!" the concept is that if you get enough people wanting to do something, like take over the streets with bicycles, you need a critical mass and it can happen...it's basically the bikes taking over and the cars pretty much have to yield and give way. imagine a few thousand bikes...it typically takes the group 10 min or so to pass any given point. the cops actually help block the streets that they know we're heading towards, and they're are cops on bikes that usually follow at the end and get the traffic going again. hard to describe what it feels like to ride your bike down the middle of michigan ave or wacker dr...very neat.

              anywho, the reason for that story is not to tell u how great critical mass is, although it is pretty fun, it's to explain that i've seen exactly the mob mentality of being in a group like that. when the bicycles are going through an intersection for example and if a car starts to slowly turn into the lane (because of course they have a right to), almost always the bikes will come so close to the car that they will inevitably stop the car, and i'm talking about tens of bikes all at once which give way to hundreds immediately behind. i'm not saying it's right, but it happens like that. had that guy in the range rover stayed to the far right and slowed, or maybe even pulled over on the nearest side street, those bikes would have probably passed without incident. but looks to me that because he decided to claim his piece of road when the bikers were calling it theirs, he ran into trouble (no pun intended). notice how the biker slowed immediately in front, he was gesturing that their group owned the road and he shouldn't be riding with them. again, i don't know what exactly happened but it would surprise me if it went down like that.
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              • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
                Originally Posted by Brian John View Post

                perhaps this has already been mentioned in the thread, but shouldn't he have just have moved to the far right and slowed so as to let the group pass?<snip>
                He should have. He made serious mistakes and obviously got confused and panicked. It is horrible that his wife and 2-year-old daughter had to witness thugs pulling daddy out of the vehicle and beating him into unconsciousness. I hope my 3-year-old-son never sees something like that happen to me.
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              • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                Originally Posted by Brian John View Post

                perhaps this has already been mentioned in the thread, but shouldn't he have just have moved to the far right and slowed so as to let the group pass? that's what i probably would have done. i realize that he has the right to be on the road, but with that many bikes just let them go by. perhaps he felt (and rightly so) that he had every right to be there and he's not going to be bullied around in his super tough range rover nor is he going to slow at all when he shouldn't have to. i don't know if this is how it happened but it would surprise me.

                there's this bicycle ride in chicago (any many other cities as well) on the last friday of every month called "critical mass". i've done it a few times and it's a cool experience. u meet downtown at the daley center at 6pm and there are literally a few thousand riders there. it's a nonpolitical event that brings people from all walks of life together for a few hour nonstop preplanned ride (different route every month) through downtown and the nearby neighborhoods. it's a good time. several bikes throughout the pack have speakers attached and are playing music, a common thing to yell to random people you pass is "happy friday!" the concept is that if you get enough people wanting to do something, like take over the streets with bicycles, you need a critical mass and it can happen...it's basically the bikes taking over and the cars pretty much have to yield and give way. imagine a few thousand bikes...it typically takes the group 10 min or so to pass any given point. the cops actually help block the streets that they know we're heading towards, and they're are cops on bikes that usually follow at the end and get the traffic going again. hard to describe what it feels like to ride your bike down the middle of michigan ave or wacker dr...very neat.

                anywho, the reason for that story is not to tell u how great critical mass is, although it is pretty fun, it's to explain that i've seen exactly the mob mentality of being in a group like that. when the bicycles are going through an intersection for example and if a car starts to slowly turn into the lane (because of course they have a right to), almost always the bikes will come so close to the car that they will inevitably stop the car, and i'm talking about tens of bikes all at once which give way to hundreds immediately behind. i'm not saying it's right, but it happens like that. had that guy in the range rover stayed to the far right and slowed, or maybe even pulled over on the nearest side street, those bikes would have probably passed without incident. but looks to me that because he decided to claim his piece of road when the bikers were calling it theirs, he ran into trouble (no pun intended). notice how the biker slowed immediately in front, he was gesturing that their group owned the road and he shouldn't be riding with them. again, i don't know what exactly happened but it would surprise me if it went down like that.
                How did he end up in the middle of the bikers anyway? Bikers often go around. With regard to such things, they have FAR more freedom.

                Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author yukon
            Banned
            Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

            Does any man here have a problem with what I said? lol
            Looked like trolling to me.

            Even this last comment looks like trolling. Looks like your degrading women by posting a question that excludes women to help support your first comment.
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      • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
        Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

        That was after he ran over the bikers. He told police that he gassed it because they were damaging his car and he panicked.
        If you watch the video again, you can see someone attempting to open the driver side door just before the vehicle busts forward. At least, that's what I see.

        Let's say that didn't happen -- maybe you see something different. Having your vehicle attacked while having all avenues of escape obstructed is a pretty good reason to panic and attempt to escape. Which could be the reason the SUV driver isn't being charged and the biker is being charged not only with reckless driving, but unlawful imprisonment, as well.
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        • Profile picture of the author yukon
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

          If you watch the video again, you can see someone attempting to open the driver side door just before the vehicle busts forward. At least, that's what I see.

          Let's say that didn't happen -- maybe you see something different. Having your vehicle attacked while having all avenues of escape obstructed is a pretty good reason to panic and attempt to escape. Which could be the reason the SUV driver isn't being charged and the biker is being charged not only with reckless driving, but unlawful imprisonment, as well.
          I read on one of news sites that one of the bikers is also being charged for child endangerment.
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  • Profile picture of the author J50
    This kind of behaviour is more common than you think, I think a lot of bikers don't think anybody is crazy enough to actually run them down. I guess they were wrong.

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    • Originally Posted by J50 View Post

      This kind of behaviour is more common than you think, I think a lot of bikers don't think anybody is crazy enough to actually run them down. I guess they were wrong.

      Motorcycle was braking car on highway... - YouTube
      I don't get this. I've been riding motorcycles for over 30 years (and boy are my arms tired!). You do everything you can to AVOID even coming close to getting hit. Why would you brake-check or slow down on purpose in front of a car? Holy shnikes.

      That said, the driver has just knocked the guy over, but takes his sweet time to see if the guy is hurt. First, he stops to check if his car is damaged. wth?
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        Brian -

        Did you watch the video? I find it hard to believe people are making excuses for these bikers. Had they been riding without bothering others, they would not have been hurt. The SUV was their target - they weren't trying to pass it at all.

        I was shocked last night to hear that only the two bikers who beat up the SUV driver after pulling him from his car would be charged. The others are being called "bystanders". No wonder they have frequent problems with that biker group - they get by with it.
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        • Profile picture of the author ThomM
          Here's what that incident has the potential to cause (and why real bikers and motorcycle riders are speaking out against those riders).
          Now people who only drive 4 wheels will be on edge every time they are around a group of riders. It won't matter what type of motorcycles they are riding or how they are riding them. They will be expecting the worse.
          Because the SUV driver drove over one of those riders and got away with it, people will think that is an acceptable way to deal with riders who they think are a threat.
          What those riders in NYC did was give riders everywhere a bad name. What the SUV driver did and got away with puts us (bikers and riders) at risk.
          Almost everyone here (even those who ride) have said in the same situation they would do what the SUV driver did. Some have even said the guy who is now paralyzed deserved it.
          How long will it be before somebody in a car feels threatened just being around motorcycles and decides to run them over?
          Here's a couple examples of what we have to deal with already.
          Re:intentionally run down by a motorist yesterday - Road Star Forum - Yamaha Road Star

          Dash cam captures Ohio police officer hitting couple on motorcycle | Mail Online
          It's already dangerous enough out there.
          Two things we don't need are these riders giving all riders a bad name and the SUV driver giving people the idea that it is acceptable to run over a motorcycle to get out of danger, real or perceived.
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        • Profile picture of the author Brian John
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          Brian -
          Did you watch the video? I find it hard to believe people are making excuses for these bikers. Had they been riding without bothering others, they would not have been hurt. The SUV was their target - they weren't trying to pass it at all.
          i'm not making excuses for the bikers at all, i'm simply saying that i understand the mob mentality and attempting to explain what might have happened. do i think it's right, of course not. just to clarify, "critical mass" is basically a peaceful event (be design), however the bikers in the vid clearly think they're tough guys and can do whatever they want including bullying people they pass.

          and yes, i saw the video. the range rover could have been riding in that group for a while, for all we know there were several times before he could have got the hint that they wanted to take over the road...we don't know. is it right? hell no, he should have the right to drive on the same road as anyone else, but personally i'm not going to risk being a tough guy by staying my course and irritating them.

          again, had that guy in the range rover stayed to the far right and slowed, or maybe even pulled over on the nearest side street, those bikes would have probably passed without incident. but looks to me that because he decided to claim his piece of road when the bikers were calling it theirs, he ran into trouble. notice how the biker slowed immediately in front, he was gesturing that their group owned the road and he shouldn't be riding with them. i don't know exactly how it all played out and there may have been absolutely nothing the guy could have done to prevent what happened, but i highly suspect that had he initially sensed what was going on and reacted differently, the outcome would have been very different. just an opinion though.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            Whenever you are in a crisis it's easy to look back and think what you could have or might have done differently - and even easier to critique how another person reacted in a situation.

            I feel sorry for the SUV driver - he did what he thought he had to do to keep his family safe. He didn't ask for this trouble and probably feels badly about the biker's injuries. This isn't over for him. His car is damaged - he has medical bills from injuries. He'll be sued for money - and he's being widely criticized on some social sites.

            All because he was out with his family on a Sunday celebrating an anniversary and minding his own business. It's not right.
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            • Profile picture of the author Brian John
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              Whenever you are in a crisis it's easy to look back and think what you could have or might have done differently - and even easier to critique how another person reacted in a situation.

              I feel sorry for the SUV driver - he did what he thought he had to do to keep his family safe. He didn't ask for this trouble and probably feels badly about the biker's injuries. This isn't over for him. His car is damaged - he has medical bills from injuries. He'll be sued for money - and he's being widely criticized on some social sites.

              All because he was out with his family on a Sunday celebrating an anniversary and minding his own business. It's not right.
              again, i completely agree, it's not right, and i feel sorry for him also. but that doesn't change the fact that it might very easily have been avoided.

              and yes it is easier to critique how another person reacted in a given situation and what they could/should have done differently, no doubting that. i'm just saying, simply for the sake of conversation, that the reaction he had was probably not the best one. i've seen the entire thread talking almost solely about how much at fault the bikers are, and i don't disagree in the slightest, but maybe had the driver taken a slightly different approach the whole thing would have ended much differently. furthermore, sometimes "minding your own business" isn't enough to get by safely in this world. not saying it's right, but it is what it is.

              just removing emotion and looking at everything objectively...something i've been accused of now and again :rolleyes:
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            • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              <snip>

              All because he was out with his family on a Sunday celebrating an anniversary and minding his own business. It's not right.
              If those bikers weren't planning to make trouble, why were they riding around without license plates on their motorcycles?
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              • Profile picture of the author Brian John
                Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

                If those bikers weren't planning to make trouble, why were they riding around without license plates on their motorcycles?
                no doubt they were out looking for trouble, a quick look at those liveleak vids will tell u that. anyone could be their victim, especially someone that's perceived as challenging them in the slightest
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  • Profile picture of the author bravo75
    Edwin E. Mieses, 26, of 17 Bernard Ave., Nov. 28, charged with operating a motor vehicle after license was revoked, illegal possession of a Class D narcotic, operating a motor vehicle with defective equipment and on five outstanding warrants;
    Arrested Again in May, Since 1999, he has been ticketed by police 16 times, in Lawrence, Methuen, Roxbury, Andover, and New Hampshire, according to registry records.
    In June, the Registry notified the National Driver Register that Mieses was a habitual traffic offender whose right to drive in Massachusetts was revoked until 2017, records show."
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    • Profile picture of the author DubDubDubDot
      Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

      If someone was banging on your head with a hammer, would you wait for the cops to come and make that bad, bad person stop hammering on your head?
      If I had a legitimate reason to believe I was about to get my head bashed in with a hammer, I would take whatever steps necessary to defend myself. I wouldn't let my imagination run wild and use deadly force based on what could happen.

      Many of you are coming across as loose cannons with liberal definitions of what it means to have your life put in danger. That's a good way to end up on trial with a jury to decide if your use of deadly force was truly justified (which is where this guy would he headed had they not carried out vigilante justice on him). I sure hope some of you don't have a CCW, because you aren't level headed enough to carry the way you are talking.

      Originally Posted by Aussie_Al View Post

      Same group of morons attacking another motorist back in 2011

      LiveLeak.com - Same group of bikers attacking another driver in 2011
      Notice how that car doesn't mow anyone down.
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      • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
        Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

        If I had a legitimate reason to believe I was about to get my head bashed in with a hammer, I would take whatever steps necessary to defend myself. I wouldn't let my imagination run wild and use deadly force based on what could happen.

        Many of you are coming across as loose cannons with liberal definitions of what it means to have your life put in danger. That's a good way to end up on trial with a jury to decide if your use of deadly force was truly justified (which is where this guy would he haded had they not carried out vigilante justice on him). I sure hope some of you don't have a CCW, because you aren't level headed enough to carry the way you are talking.


        Notice how that car doesn't mow anyone down.
        So being surrounded with people banging on your car and slashing your tires doesn't qualify as a legitimate reason to believe your life is in danger?

        Also, one can only use deadly force based on what could happen. If whatever could happen already happened, you couldn't use deadly force. You'd be dead or seriously injured. What's the saying? I'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six?

        It's truly idiotic to think this guy should have just sat there surrounded -- being impeded in all directions -- and let a mob beat on his car. It takes zero mental gymnastics to believe they aren't going to stop at damaging the vehicle.
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        • Profile picture of the author Brian John
          Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

          It's truly idiotic to think that this guy should have just sat there surrounded -- being impeded in all directions -- and let a mob beat on his car. It takes zero mental gymnastics to believe they aren't going to stop at damaging the vehicle.
          absolutely. once they decided to aggressively target him i think he did what anyone would likely do...get the heck out of there, i know i would!

          not sure if u were referring to something i said earlier, but my only point was that he may have been able to have done something differently in the time leading up to the incident we saw that could have averted the whole thing. don't know, but perhaps he could have recognized earlier that these idiots were trying to display their dominance of the road and moved to the side and slowed or stopped. it wouldn't surprise me to learn that he had been traveling at speed w them for some time not identifying what was going on (or maybe he did and didn't care), and what we see on the vid comes after a while of them being irritated by him.

          i'd like to see maximum penalties for any and all bikers involved in this. w the amount of attention this is getting, a strong precedent can and should be set.
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          • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
            Originally Posted by Brian John View Post

            absolutely. once they decided to aggressively target him i think he did what anyone would likely do...get the hell out of there, i know i would!

            not sure if u were referring to something i said earlier, but my only point was that he may have been able to have done something differently in the time leading up to the incident we saw that could have averted the whole thing. don't know, but perhaps he could have recognized earlier that these idiots were trying to display their dominance of the road and moved to the side and slowed or stopped. it wouldn't surprise me to learn that he had been traveling at speed w them for some time not identifying what was going on (or maybe he did and didn't care), and what we see on the vid comes after a while of them being irritated by him.

            i'd like to see maximum penalties for any and all bikers involved in this. w the amount of attention this is getting, a strong precedent can and should be set.
            I wasn't referring to anything you said, Brian. I quoted what I was referring to.

            Maybe the driver could have done something differently, but isn't this really just blaming the victim? "If she didn't want to be raped, she shouldn't have worn such a low cut blouse."
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            • Profile picture of the author Brian John
              Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

              Maybe the driver could have done something differently, but isn't this really just blaming the victim? "If she didn't want to be raped, she shouldn't have worn such a low cut blouse."
              definitely not blaming the victim...i fully believe the bikers are 100% at fault. i'm just saying that perhaps there's a possibility it could have been prevented had there been just the slightest bit of vigilance and awareness as to what was going on. maybe they were set on targeting him and there was nothing he could have done, but i'm not convinced of that simply based on what we saw. furthermore, i realize one shouldn't have to take preventative measures against such acts, but unfortunately that's the world we live in.

              and i like how u inject an emotionally charged topic such as rape. (sign) of course it's not the rape victim's fault, i would never suggest that. but maybe, just maybe, if she hadn't been dancing on the bar teasing that group of gangbangers she saw staring at her all night and then choosing at 3am to drunkenly walk down the same dark alley she saw them walk down 10 min earlier...i don't know, maybe it could have been prevented??? is it her fault...absolutely not, but it might possibly have been prevented, that's all i'm saying. i realize that example is a bit extreme, but def not out of the realm of possibility, and just used it to exemplify my point of the importance of remaining keen to one's surroundings.
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              • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                Originally Posted by Brian John View Post

                definitely not blaming the victim...i fully believe the bikers are 100% at fault. i'm just saying that perhaps there's a possibility it could have been prevented had there been just the slightest bit of vigilance and awareness as to what was going on. maybe they were set on targeting him and there was nothing he could have done, but i'm not convinced of that simply based on what we saw. furthermore, i realize one shouldn't have to take preventative measures against such acts, but unfortunately that's the world we live in.

                and i like how u inject an emotionally charged topic such as rape. (sign) of course it's not the rape victim's fault, i would never suggest that. but maybe, just maybe, if she hadn't been dancing on the bar teasing that group of gangbangers she saw staring at her all night and then choosing at 3am to drunkenly walk down the same dark alley she saw them walk down 10 min earlier...i don't know, maybe it could have been prevented??? is it her fault...absolutely not, but it might possibly have been prevented, that's all i'm saying. i realize that example is a bit extreme, but def not out of the realm of possibility, and just used it to exemplify my point of the importance of vigilance and awareness.
                Sorry, Brian. I'm not trying to argue with you. It was the first example of "blaming the victim" that came to mind.

                Again, I agree, in theory, with what you're saying. I'm not as ready as you are to say he was even partly responsible, though. I don't see it in the video. From the video, it just looked to me like an asshat thought it would be funny to brake check the driver and the driver didn't stop in time.

                Locally, we have a group of idiot riders who do things similar to this completely unprovoked. They will pull in front of an unsuspecting car and brake check them. It isn't even about awareness because they come out of nowhere, screaming down the highway. Granted, a group this large may have been difficult to miss.

                The video on the bottom right of the following page shows them being idiots on our local highways. And this is just what they posted on their website:
                http://starboyz.net/videos.html
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                • Profile picture of the author Brian John
                  Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                  Sorry, Brian. I'm not trying to argue with you. It was the first example of "blaming the victim" that came to mind.
                  no worries, just that when i saw that word i figured i almost had to say something to further explain myself.
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        • Profile picture of the author DubDubDubDot
          Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

          Also, one can only use deadly force based on what could happen. If whatever could happen already happened, you couldn't use deadly force. You'd be dead or seriously injured.
          Let me give a more clear example.

          Two people are having a dispute. One has a large knife on his belt and the other a concealed gun. The man with the knife becomes irate and shoves the other guy.

          He could pull the knife and stab him, or maybe not.

          According to your logic, the man with the gun should pull it and defend his life based on what could happen.... "because it's obvious that shoving leads to stabbing."


          Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

          It takes zero mental gymnastics to believe they aren't going to stop at damaging the vehicle.
          Simple statistics says otherwise. People pounding on a vehicle do not escalate the situation to deadly acts of violence 100% of the time. Several events must transpire, each having their own odds.

          x% odds of it moving beyond pounding on the car
          x% odds of a window then being broken
          x% odds of them reaching in and trying to open the door
          x% odds of them successfully getting the door open
          x% odds of them grabbing for the man
          x% odds of them successfully removing him from the car
          x% odds of them physically harming him
          x% odds of it being serious physical harm

          The odds of each get lower as you move down the list. The overall odds of the series going from first to last is extremely low. It did indeed happen minutes later, but him running over their friends caused the odds of each individual element to increase greatly. The odds of making it through the series based solely on the initial minor accident was extremely low and thus use of deadly force was not justified so early in the series.
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          • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
            Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

            Let me give a more clear example.

            Two people are having a dispute. One has a large knife on his belt and the other a concealed gun. The man with the knife becomes irate and shoves the other guy.

            He could pull the knife and stab him, or maybe not.

            According to your logic, the man with the gun should pull it and defend his life based on what could happen.... "because it's obvious that shoving leads to stabbing."
            A simple shove is not an adequate comparison to a large mob completely surrounding a vehicle on a roadway, forcing it to stop, beating on the car and slashing its tires.

            In your scenario, the gun carrier would have every right to engage his weapon if the other man reached for his knife, based on the potential of what could happen. If he waits to be stabbed - which would be incredibly stupid - he may not even get a chance to defend himself.


            Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

            Simple statistics says otherwise. People pounding on a vehicle do not escalate the situation to deadly acts of violence 100% of the time. Several events must transpire, each having their own odds.

            x% odds of it moving beyond pounding on the car
            x% odds of a window then being broken
            x% odds of them reaching in and trying to open the door
            x% odds of them successfully getting the door open
            x% odds of them grabbing for the man
            x% odds of them successfully removing him from the car
            x% odds of them physically harming him
            x% odds of it being serious physical harm

            The odds of each get lower as you move down the list. The overall odds of the series going from first to last is extremely low. It did indeed happen minutes later, but him running over their friends caused the odds of each individual element to increase greatly. The odds of making it through the series based solely on the initial minor accident was extremely low and thus use of deadly force was not justified so early in the series.
            Unfortunately, life isn't a math problem. You can't say the odds of making it through your series was low. You don't know the odds.

            It would be fantastic if, in the middle of any situation, someone called "Time" and walked over to you with a slip of paper with the odds of potential occurrences. However, it just doesn't work that way.

            I truly don't get what you're missing here. There's nothing in the chain of events that would lead the average person to believe he was not in a dire situation.
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    Having been a courier for many years, and based upon watching many of the videos and reading many of the articles, I would guess that the guy in the Rover did nothing more than honk at the gang (they call themselves Hollywood Stuntz - so they are a gang of some sort) when they started buzzing around him on the road.

    So, if I was minding my own business and maybe honked because someone got too close, and then had a group like this around me and got brake checked, I would no longer be on friendly terms. I would not expect to be able talk to them. Nor would I stop and hope they go away - or hope that nothing happens until the police come.

    Alone or with family, I would have done as this Rover driver did and then tried to remain on the highway and keep moving.

    It's a horrible event and horrible that the one guy got injured. His family; however, should be able to put themselves in the shoes of the Rover driver and forget about going after him. He was only trying to survive and protect his family.

    @DubDub, as for your misguided views on women, think about throughout history how many women have survived through wars, bombings, and prison camps. Often times better than men. In fact there is a lot of research showing that women handle such stress better than men.

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  • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
    Verbiage snafus aside, I'd say just about everyone here basically agrees, even DubDubDubDot (irrespective of his characterizations of women).
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  • Profile picture of the author johnben1444
    Pathetic story altogether.

    We were the police all these while? Missing in action as usual i guess.
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  • Profile picture of the author Brady Partridge
    Typical Range Rover driver! They think they own the bloody road!
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  • Profile picture of the author Hogre
    No one knows what really happened before the video was taken.Are these bikers stupid thugs?Yes.But you don't go haywire solo against fifty bikers.A smart move is to defuse the situation...especially if you've just hit one from behind.Slashing tires and putting a few dents in your car doesn't justify your putting another person (who by the way, wasn't directly jeopardizing you) in a wheelchair for the rest of their life.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
      Originally Posted by Hogre View Post

      No one knows what really happened before the video was taken.Are these bikers stupid thugs?Yes.But you don't go haywire solo against fifty bikers.A smart move is to defuse the situation...especially if you've just hit one from behind.Slashing tires and putting a few dents in your car doesn't justify your putting another person (who by the way, wasn't directly jeopardizing you) in a wheelchair for the rest of their life.
      How do you diffuse a situation where you've been completely surrounded by a mob and they are attacking your vehicle.

      "Uh, hey guys, sorry. Please stop damaging my vehicle while you have me wrongfully imprisoned on the highway. How 'bout we go to Steak N Shake and I buy everyone a malt?"

      Slashing tires and beating on a vehicle does give you the right to extract yourself from further harm. The guy in front was jeopardizing him by not allowing him an avenue of escape from harm. You can't surround someone and attack them and not have a reasonable expectation of retaliation.
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      • Profile picture of the author Hogre
        Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

        You can't surround someone and attack them and not have a reasonable expectation of retaliation.
        No one caused him bodily harm.Pedal to the metal isn't reasonable.And I think he should have apologized even though he's in the right, because that would be a smart thing to do.Diplomacy, sometimes, works wonders.

        What if an innocent scooter driver was the only thing standing between him and freedom?Just another guy commuting to work.Would running him over also be justifiable?
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        • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
          Originally Posted by Hogre View Post

          No one caused him bodily harm.Pedal to the metal isn't reasonable.And I think he should have apologized even though he's in the right, because that would be a smart thing to do.Diplomacy, sometimes, works wonders.

          What if an innocent scooter driver was the only thing standing between him and freedom?Just another guy commuting to work.Would running him over also be justifiable?
          Should he have to wait for bodily harm before extracting himself and his wife from a dire situation? What if the first instance of bodily harm is a death blow? Now he's dead and Lord knows what happens to his wife and children. Intent to harm is good enough. Surrounding a vehicle so they can't escape and attacking the vehicle is good enough.

          Your scooter scenario is insufficient. You can drive around a single scooter. The bikers had this man, his wife and his child completely surrounded.

          When is the last time you read the following headline: "Angry Mob Surrounds Man, Tickles Him Until He Pees, and Leaves the Scene"?
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          • Profile picture of the author Hogre
            Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

            Should he have to wait for bodily harm before extracting himself and his wife from a dire situation? What if the first instance of bodily harm is a death blow? Now he's dead and Lord knows what happens to his wife and children. Intent to harm is good enough. Surrounding a vehicle so they can't escape and attacking the vehicle is good enough.

            Your scooter scenario is insufficient. You can drive around a single scooter. The bikers had this man, his wife and his child completely surrounded.

            When is the last time you read the following headline: "Angry Mob Surrounds Man, Tickles Him Until He Pees, and Leaves the Scene"?
            I meant imagine a similar scenario where your only way out is to run over an innocent motorist.Would you do it and would you consider it justifiable if all the other circumstances were the same?

            What was this guy thinking,anyway? "I'll just run over a couple of these guys and go on my marry way"? Trying to outrun a bunch of superbikes who go from 0-60 in three seconds with an SUV is laughable.The guy was clearly in full panic mode.

            Recipe for disaster.Instead of having a few panels dented and a cracked windshield, he's now beat-up and has to live with the fact that someone is going to have a pretty messed up life as a result of his actions.
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            • Profile picture of the author garyv
              Originally Posted by Hogre View Post

              someone is going to have a pretty messed up life as a result of their own actions.
              There... fixed that for ya.
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              • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
                Originally Posted by Hogre View Post
                someone is going to have a pretty messed up life as a result of their own actions.
                Originally Posted by garyv View Post

                There... fixed that for ya.
                Sometimes 1 Thanks is not enough!

                Excellent Gary. And I'm not slamming on Hogre as much as I like the simple elegance of the "fix".

                William of Occam would approve.

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            • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
              Originally Posted by Hogre View Post

              I meant imagine a similar scenario where your only way out is to run over an innocent motorist.Would you do it and would you consider it justifiable if all the other circumstances were the same?
              I can't imagine a scenario where an innocent bystander would witness such an attack and continue to impede the folks being attacked. If they don't get out of the way, they become part of the problem.

              To answer you're question, if it were between the safety of my family and an innocent bystander, sorry, he's toast. He should have gotten the hell out of the way.

              Originally Posted by Hogre View Post

              What was this guy thinking,anyway? "I'll just run over a couple of these guys and go on my marry way"? Trying to outrun a bunch of superbikes who go from 0-60 in three seconds with an SUV is laughable.The guy was clearly in full panic mode.
              Why wouldn't the guy be in full panic mode?! He and his family are surrounded by an angry mob that is aggressively attacking his vehicle.

              You are correct about trying to outrun them. Stay on the highway, contact the police and keep driving. If they continue to attack his vehicle, run some more of them over. He'd be completely justified -- he wasn't the one who turned things into a scene from Mad Max.

              Here's our main disconnect:

              Recipe for disaster.Instead of having a few panels dented and a cracked windshield, he's now beat-up and has to live with the fact that someone is going to have a pretty messed up life as a result of his actions.
              You're under the assumption that the mob would have stopped after damaging his vehicle. I'm under the assumption that was just the beginning. Mob violence has a tendency to be much worse than one-on-one violence.

              Gary pretty much summed up the rest above.
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          • Profile picture of the author DubDubDubDot
            Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

            Should he have to wait for bodily harm before extracting himself and his wife from a dire situation?
            No. You wait for the action just prior to the bodily harm that could cause death. Anything else is a potential illegal use of deadly force.

            You are legally allowed to escalate your attacker's force by just one degree. So for instance if you are being punched you may hit them with a club or tazer or pepper spray, but not shoot them. You could however point the gun and if they come at you, then shoot them (check local laws.... you may be required to attempt to retreat first).
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            • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
              Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

              No. You wait for the action just prior to the bodily harm that could cause death. Anything else is a potential illegal use of deadly force.

              You are legally allowed to escalate your attacker's force by just one degree. So for instance if you are being punched you may hit them with a club or tazer or pepper spray, but not shoot them. You could however point the gun and if they come at you, then shoot them (check local laws.... you may be required to attempt to retreat first).
              And this is where we get nowhere. In my mind and apparently in the minds of the police (since he hasn't been charged), being completely surrounded by and attacked by a mob fulfilled the right to use deadly force.

              Your one degree scenario is muddy at best. Use of deadly force may be considered justified if it is done to prevent a very serious crime. The assailant's intent to commit a serious crime must be clear at the time. In my mind, it was pretty clear this was a serious crime and intent is obvious. They weren't planning to give him a titty twister.

              You are correct about potential duty to retreat. In this case, this man had no ability to retreat. He was completely surrounded. You also have potential Castle Doctrine issues. Depending on jurisdiction, he may not have been required to retreat. Castle Doctrine can extend to your place of work and your vehicle.

              The following is a good discussion of use of lethal force.
              http://oklahomaconcealedcarry.com/Wh...dly_Force.html

              Here's an excerpt related to mob attacks:

              "Two or more threatening persons, even without identifiably deadly weapons, against you alone, would constitute a disparity of force. If they attack you and act in such a manner as to lead you to believe that, unless you do something, they are going to kill or cripple you, you are on solid legal ground. Against a group of attackers, each member of the group shares the same responsibility for the fear the group creates in the intended victim, and also shares the danger from the intended victim's lawful response."
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              • Profile picture of the author Hogre
                Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                And this is where we get nowhere. In my mind and apparently in the minds of the police (since he hasn't been charged), being completely surrounded by and attacked by a mob fulfilled the right to use deadly force.

                Your one degree scenario is muddy at best. Use of deadly force may be considered justified if it is done to prevent a very serious crime. The assailant's intent to commit a serious crime must be clear at the time. In my mind, it was pretty clear this was a serious crime and intent is obvious. They weren't planning to give him a titty twister.

                You are correct about potential duty to retreat. In this case, this man had no ability to retreat. He was completely surrounded. You also have potential Castle Doctrine issues. Depending on jurisdiction, he may not have been required to retreat. Castle Doctrine can extend to your place of work and your vehicle.

                The following is a good discussion of use of lethal force.
                When To Use Deadly Force

                Here's an excerpt related to mob attacks:

                "Two or more threatening persons, even without identifiably deadly weapons, against you alone, would constitute a disparity of force. If they attack you and act in such a manner as to lead you to believe that, unless you do something, they are going to kill or cripple you, you are on solid legal ground. Against a group of attackers, each member of the group shares the same responsibility for the fear the group creates in the intended victim, and also shares the danger from the intended victim's lawful response.
                That's one cool response.

                Maybe that's the way things work in the U.S. but here,you'd probably be charged for slamming the rear of that bike,running over a person,causing life threatening injuries and fleeing the scene of the crime.

                Where I'm from, you can't shoot someone who's broken into your home if he doesn't have a gun in his hand.I kid you not.

                Just a couple months ago, a man stabbed a junkie to death who broke into his home and threatened his family. The guy is now probably looking at doing serious time.

                I don't have a family yet,so,in all honesty I can't say what I would and wouldn't do.It's a shame we can't clearly see what was going on at the beginning of the video.Maybe the situation could have been defused,maybe not.
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                • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                  Originally Posted by Hogre View Post

                  That's one cool response.

                  Maybe that's the way things work in the U.S. but here,you'd probably be charged for slamming the rear of that bike,running over a person,causing life threatening injuries and fleeing the scene of the crime.

                  Where I'm from, you can't shoot someone who's broken into your home if he doesn't have a gun in his hand.I kid you not.

                  Just a couple months ago, a man stabbed a junkie to death who broke into his home and threatened his family. The guy is now probably looking at doing serious time.

                  I don't have a family yet,so,in all honesty I can't say what I would and wouldn't do.It's a shame we can't clearly see what was going on at the beginning of the video.Maybe the situation could have been defused,maybe not.
                  Hogre, I'm with Kay. I'd like to know where you live so I can avoid it. I can't imagine a place where the right to self-preservation is so crippled.

                  As to the family issue, trust me, it changes you. Your risk tolerance, especially in situations like this, shrinks considerably. If you boil it down to its essence, your sole responsibility is to keep your family alive.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                    It's gotten more interesting as other photos and films have been turned in from bystanders - and it's been found that an undercover cop was riding with the group and did nothing to stop them.

                    And then, of course, there is Gloria Allred making up stories that will help her sue the SUV driver....reports say she had to fight for this defense job as Lawyer Crump (Martin case) was also offering his services. Anything for a high profile, big news case for those two.

                    Several cops may have watched biker beatdown | New York Post
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              • Profile picture of the author DubDubDubDot
                Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                Here's an excerpt related to mob attacks:

                "Two or more threatening persons, even without identifiably deadly weapons, against you alone, would constitute a disparity of force. If they attack you and act in such a manner as to lead you to believe that, unless you do something, they are going to kill or cripple you, you are on solid legal ground. Against a group of attackers, each member of the group shares the same responsibility for the fear the group creates in the intended victim, and also shares the danger from the intended victim's lawful response."
                That is a description of defending yourself against a lethal use of force, which can be countered with your own lethal use of force.

                Having your car dented is not a lethal use of force.

                But I think I'm just going to have to agree to disagree with you guys. You believe that denting a car means they are trying to kill the occupant and there is probably no convincing you otherwise.

                I just wish the bikers hadn't slashed his face. Because then he likely would have been arrested. It would have been a nice trial to follow. A NYC jury likely wouldn't have seen an immanent danger to this life, so he probably does some time. But he has to live with a slashed face instead. So take your pick.
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                • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
                  Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

                  That is a description of defending yourself against a lethal use of force, which can be countered with your own lethal use of force.

                  Having your car dented is not a lethal use of force.

                  But I think I'm just going to have to agree to disagree with you guys. You believe that denting a car means they are trying to kill the occupant and there is probably no convincing you otherwise.

                  I just wish the bikers hadn't slashed his face. Because then he likely would have been arrested. It would have been a nice trial to follow. A NYC jury likely wouldn't have seen an immanent danger to this life, so he probably does some time. But he has to live with a slashed face instead. So take your pick.
                  Dub,

                  I do not see how anyone cannot see it was much more than a denting
                  a car.

                  I sincerely hope you and yours are never surrounded by 30 to 40
                  motorcyclists who have shown aggressive behavior such as break
                  blocking you on your Sunday drive. And then pounding on your car,
                  breaking your windows and attempting to pull you or your wife out....

                  Also, remember that where this happened, the Hollywod Stuntz group has
                  shown increasingly aggressive behavior for the past few years. So, if you
                  lived there you would likely be much more aware of who they are and the kind of
                  violence and disregard for civilized behavior they are capable of doing.

                  We are just seeing the reported stuff they've been doing the past few years,
                  not the stuff that did not get recorded, or the stuff they got away with
                  that people know who did it but can't prove it.

                  You really have to try and put your self in that Rover driver's seat. And, add
                  to it that perhaps he was singled out because of his race.

                  Best of luck to you.

                  Dan
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                • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                  Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

                  That is a description of defending yourself against a lethal use of force, which can be countered with your own lethal use of force.

                  Having your car dented is not a lethal use of force.

                  But I think I'm just going to have to agree to disagree with you guys. You believe that denting a car means they are trying to kill the occupant and there is probably no convincaing you otherwise.

                  I just wish the bikers hadn't slashed his face. Because then he likely would have been arrested. It would have been a nice trial to follow. A NYC jury likely wouldn't have seen an immanent danger to this life, so he probably does some time. But he has to live with a slashed face instead. So take your pick.
                  Absolutely false in regards to your first statement above.

                  You didn't read a word of what I said or it simply didn't compute.

                  As far as disagreeing: fair enough. Your handling of the situation would most likely keep you out of jail. Mine would most likely keep you and your family alive. Take your pick.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                    There are people who love to appear associated with "bad boys" - whether it's bikers or hackers or anti-establishment people in the news.

                    Of course, put them on a big bike speeding down a city street swerving left and right - and they'd be screaming like a girl.:p
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                    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                      There are people who love to appear associated with "bad boys" - whether it's bikers or hackers or anti-establishment people in the news.

                      Of course, put them on a big bike speeding down a city street swerving left and right - and they'd be screaming like a girl.:p
                      Heck Kay put me on a big bike speeding down a city street swerving in and out and I'd be screaming like a little girl.
                      That's one (of many) reason why I don't do that
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                  • Profile picture of the author DubDubDubDot
                    Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                    As far as disagreeing: fair enough. Your handling of the situation would most likely keep you out of jail. Mine would most likely keep you and your family alive. Take your pick.
                    What if I proposed a third choice?..... Wait until the safety of your car is compromised (window broken and they reach in) and then immediately gas it.

                    Please explain why that is not a good option.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                      Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

                      What if I proposed a third choice?..... Wait until the safety of your car is compromised (window broken and they reach in) and then immediately gas it.

                      Please explain why that is not a good option.
                      It's certainly an option, just not a good one. I'd be much more inclined to agree with your reaction to this situation if we were talking about a one-on-one situation rather than mob violence.

                      The reason it's not a good option is because the driver is vastly outnumbered. Too many variables, too much risk. Once the vehicle is breached, the driver is toast. Everybody is toast.

                      "What if they don't breach the vehicle?"

                      Sure, it's possible that an angry mob would entrap a vehicle, beat on it, slash tires, etc., stop there and let the couple and their child on their merry way. Personally, I don't find it plausible.

                      Again, your reaction to the situation would most likely keep you out of jail. However, you're taking an awful lot of risk and putting your family's safety almost entirely in the hands of people who have already established aggression towards you.

                      I hope you never find yourself in a similar situation and, if you do, you come out if it safely.
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                    • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
                      Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

                      What if I proposed a third choice?..... Wait until the safety of your car is compromised (window broken and they reach in) and then immediately gas it.

                      Please explain why that is not a good option.
                      Unbelievable. Really.
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                    • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
                      Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

                      What if I proposed a third choice?..... Wait until the safety of your car is compromised (window broken and they reach in) and then immediately gas it.

                      Please explain why that is not a good option.
                      By that time, because there were so many of them, your vehicle is totally compromised and they are getting your wife and kid.

                      Also, if you could still drive forward, you would then run over four or five of the idiots
                      in front of your vehicle.

                      When facing imminent danger, you have to respond immediately.

                      Dan
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            • Profile picture of the author seasoned
              Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

              No. You wait for the action just prior to the bodily harm that could cause death. Anything else is a potential illegal use of deadly force.

              You are legally allowed to escalate your attacker's force by just one degree. So for instance if you are being punched you may hit them with a club or tazer or pepper spray, but not shoot them. You could however point the gun and if they come at you, then shoot them (check local laws.... you may be required to attempt to retreat first).
              If we had done that in WWII, the whole planet would likely be a WASTELAND! RUSSIA, THE NAZIS, RUSSIA, and the US may ALL have developed the atomic bomb and used them! The first would have to wait until someone ELSE had used a similar weapon. JAPAN was said to be CLOSE! I believe NAZI germany was CLOSE! The US was CLOSE! The japanese and NAZIs suffered setbacks because of the war. The US narrowly escaped. Apparently a key part was almost destroyed by a silly weapon the Japanese sent over to demoralize the US!

              So the US saw all these -2 to +2 degree battles were NOT working! They decided to try a what? maybe +100(probably a good estimate based on area) degree battle! That didn't seem to work! So they tried ANOTHER maybe +100 degree battle, and the war ended!

              NEWS for you! *********VERY********* few battles have stopped with ONE person. VERY FEW! If you counted all the big famous battles in history that stopped that way, you may be able to count them on ONE hand! The only one I can recall at the moment was david and goliath! And some may say that never even happened! If practically a little kid took down your biggest weapon so easily, YOU might give up ALSO! So suppose the people with this HUGE advantage gave it up and decided to attack the group 1 on 1 with effectively 1 potential fighter against DOZENS of other potential fighters. How do you think THAT would have turned out? Do you even KNOW why gangs are gangs? I know other gangs have similar rules, but did you know that the hells angels have a CARDINAL rule that demands that you NEVER let a fellow GANG member fight alone? If you do, it is tantamount to attacking the whole group!

              Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
      Originally Posted by Hogre View Post

      Slashing tires and putting a few dents in your car doesn't justify your putting another person (who by the way, wasn't directly jeopardizing you) in a wheelchair for the rest of their life.
      It certainly does, because he was. He was part of a mob that was attacking the man's car. Whether or not he wielded a knife or broke a window matters not one whit.
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  • Profile picture of the author sziszi555
    I saw something similar with bicycles. Does anyone know the link?
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    It's easy to be brave sitting in front of your computer screen. I'd bet money that courage would evaporate quickly if you were the one surrounded by these hoodlums and it was your wife and baby inside. If you've never been in a similar situation you have no idea what you would have done. None.
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    The driver of the Rover certainly did not INTEND to harm anyone.
    He was only trying to get his wife and kid the hell out of there.

    The wife stated in an interview that they had no other choice to make.
    She lived the event.

    Dan
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  • Profile picture of the author PROmotions LLC
    I saw this on Vine a few days ago....It was crazy!! AND probably the longest Vine video ever LOL.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      but here,you'd probably be charged
      Just a couple months ago, a man stabbed a junkie to death who broke into his home and threatened his family. The guy is now probably looking at doing serious time.
      WHERE do you live? If your comments are true - I want to avoid living or visiting there myself.

      There are always people who think reckless behavior should not have consequences. They can explain away anything someone does in a way that excuses bad behavior. They can't accept risky behavior might have long term or life changing consequences.

      Pull this stunt in some other states and the driver is likely to pull a gun from under the seat. Maybe that's why this stuff happens in NY - and not Texas.
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      • Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        WHERE do you live? If your comments are true - I want to avoid living or visiting there myself.

        There are always people who think reckless behavior should not have consequences. They can explain away anything someone does in a way that excuses bad behavior. They can't accept risky behavior might have long term or life changing consequences.

        Pull this stunt in some other states and the driver is likely to pull a gun from under the seat. Maybe that's why this stuff happens in NY - and not Texas.
        Yup, Texas is a whole different ballgame. Double tap.
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        • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          Pull this stunt in some other states and the driver is likely to pull a gun from under the seat. Maybe that's why this stuff happens in NY - and not Texas.
          Originally Posted by KingOfContentMarketing View Post

          Yup, Texas is a whole different ballgame. Double tap.

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          • Profile picture of the author ThomM
            Maybe that's why this stuff happens in New York City - and not Texas.
            Kinda fixed that for you Kay
            We're a different kind of crazy upstate
            In the group I ride with on Sundays, over 50% have concealed carry permits and everyone except for myself own at least 3 rifles and shotguns.
            Nobody carries when they ride by the way.
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    Probably not Russia either:

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  • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
    Those psycho-thug wannabe-bikers are scum of the earth. The deranged turds were preparing to pull the driver's wife out of the SUV. What were they going to do, beat up the wife and 2-year-old child as well? The way these weekend live-with-momma-and-papa bikers are now painting themselves as victims shows what pathetic rancid weak-minded turd-bags they are. At this point, I think anyone who defends them has got to be mental; it would have to be the kind of person who mocks mentally challenged people.

    Sergio Consuegra, Good Samaritan, Felt ‘Intense Danger’ In Biker Melee « CBS New York

    "He said he then stepped in and told the bikers: “That’s it, guys. Let it go.”
    He said he shouted the same thing to a biker who was trying to pull the driver’s wife out of the SUV. Then, Consuegra said, he huddled over the beaten driver to protect him, staring down the drivers face to face."
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    "Conseugra said he could see it in their eyes — he said there was no question that the bikers wanted to kill the driver."
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    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
      Out of interest, to the oh so holy nancy boys that think the Range Rover driver should have just sat there calmly and called the police, and perhaps had a little picnic in the back seat with his wife and 2 year old kid as they waited - Have any of you actually been trapped in a car surrounded by a mob with weapons trying to get into your car?

      Unlike most humans, you appear to be void of the fight or flight rule of human nature, making you rather odd.

      I'd love to be a fly on the wall in your house later that day as you pitifully try to explain to your terrified wife and 2 year old that it's merely a few dents and nothing to worry about and at least Daddy is still here and not in jail, where he can protect his family.

      So long as the protection doesn't involve anything risky or the car.
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      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
        Interesting article where a former Hells Angel weights in on what happened. Like I said earlier in this thread, these punks aren't real bikers by any stretch.
        Former Hells Angels leader slams New York beating after motorcycle chase | Fox News
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      • Profile picture of the author DubDubDubDot
        Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

        I'd love to be a fly on the wall in your house later that day as you pitifully try to explain to your terrified wife and 2 year old that it's merely a few dents and nothing to worry about and at least Daddy is still here and not in jail, where he can protect his family.
        Unjustly killing someone can put you in prison for life. You'll do several years at best. Plus the victim's family will be awarded $1 million+ in the civil lawsuit. So you go to prison and the wife loses the house and savings.

        Yeah, she's going to be real upset you didn't go down that road.
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        • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
          Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

          Unjustly killing someone can put you in prison for life. You'll do several years at best. Plus the victim's family will be awarded $1 million+ in the civil lawsuit. So you go to prison and the wife loses the house and savings.

          Yeah, she's going to be real upset you didn't go down that road.
          He should be suing the bikers who caused the situation and initiated the violence. Attacking the target of mob violence for an understandable self-defense reaction is ridiculous. You need to study logic. Those fools made their own bed, hurt themselves and created a situation that led to one of their friends being paralyzed. Lousy friends, obviously toxic as a group.
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        • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
          Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

          Unjustly killing someone can put you in prison for life. You'll do several years at best. Plus the victim's family will be awarded $1 million+ in the civil lawsuit. So you go to prison and the wife loses the house and savings.
          ...And who was killed in the whole incident?

          Has the driver of the Range Rover even been prosecuted yet?

          So it would have been best really, in your opinion, the driver just sat there having the said picnic waiting for the police?

          Back to my question though, have you actually been in a car surrounded by a mob with a wife a 2 year old? You didn't answer that and it's quite important.

          In a panic situation the body is hard wired to fight or flight, so I'd like to know if you've been in the situation because sitting calmly on your phone in that situation is not physiologically or psychologically normal.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            Unjustly killing someone can put you in prison for life. You'll do several years at best. Plus the victim's family will be awarded $1 million+ in the civil lawsuit. So you go to prison and the wife loses the house and savings.
            In other words - you've taken a position and will continue to defend it no matter how ridiculous the scenarios seem?

            If you have to assume information that isn't true and hasn't happened in order to defend your "opinion" - maybe it's the opinion that needs adjustment. Just sayin....
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        • Profile picture of the author Kurt
          For some reason, this thread reminds me of the old Sonny Boy Williamson song, "Your Funeral, My Trial".

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  • Profile picture of the author R E D
    A biker was arrested for the incident.


    I wonder where the police was and why they didn't keep an eye on this large group of bikers. I really can't believe that nobody noticed them on the highway.
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  • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
    Let's put this in another context - if the vehicle had been a diplomat's limo, complete with armed bodyguards, do you think the aftermath would only have included a thug with a broken back?
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  • Profile picture of the author iQxxL
    They´re rly like little chicken
    cause they are too much they think they have big balls
    sry to that but if just one of they would be there he hadnt done anything
    really sad to see something like this
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  • Profile picture of the author DubDubDubDot
    It's officially a conspiracy. One of the undercover cops in the group took part in the attack at the end.

    Biker cop joined in SUV beatdown, hit vehicle | New York Post

    These guys are called provacateurs. The tactic is most seen at political demonstrations. The way it works is the police will infiltrate the group, instigate violence and when the actual protesters join in the police have a reason to start arresting.

    Here are some examples:






    There are tons of these videos.


    This might be stretching things, but we have to leave open the possibility that the SUV driver himself was working with the police and things went wrong. Anything is possible at this point.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
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    • Profile picture of the author DubDubDubDot
      Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
      The cop has been arrested.
      ...and will be compensated with cash.
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      • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
        Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

        ...and will be compensated with cash.
        I could somewhat respect your opinion on the initial scenario, but now you're just being silly.
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        Raising a child is akin to knowing you're getting fired in 18 years and having to train your replacement without actively sabotaging them.

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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          ...and will be compensated with cash.
          So now it's a conspiracy? Not only a conspiracy - but maybe it's mass hypnosis....or maybe....
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          • Profile picture of the author DubDubDubDot
            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            So now it's a conspiracy? Not only a conspiracy - but maybe it's mass hypnosis....or maybe....
            It was mass hypnosis.

            "They" know the US is on the brink of collapse and did this exercise to plant seeds in people's heads on what to do if police services are unavailable.
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            • Profile picture of the author Brian John
              Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

              It was mass hypnosis.

              "They" know the US is on the brink of collapse and did this exercise to plant seeds in people's heads on what to do if police services are unavailable.
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            • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
              Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

              It was mass hypnosis.

              "They" know the US is on the brink of collapse and did this exercise to plant seeds in people's heads on what to do if police services are unavailable.


              In other news, I'm really digging Land Rover's new advertisements:

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  • Profile picture of the author worldalpha
    Pretty crazy world we live in!
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