How disturbing what is wrong with our kids these days

15 years ago

There is always more crime when the economy hits recession. One of the best ways to slow crime is make sure everyone has a chance at a dream.

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Michael Motley 15 years ago

Originally Posted by dvduval

There is always more crime when the economy hits recession. One of the best ways to slow crime is make sure everyone has a chance at a dream.

everyone has the chance already.
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Ernie Lo

15 years ago

Although its horrible thing to happen, what good is changing the gun laws?

Someone so sick to do that, WILL find a way to get a gun.

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Martin Luxton 15 years ago

The year after private ownership of firearms was banned in the UK, gun crime rose (depending on whose figures you believe).

Too many people are leading desperate lives. Maybe your question should be "How have we failed our kids?"

Martin
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CurtisN

15 years ago

Giving everyone guns, or the right to own guns, is like giving all the countries in the world nuclear weapons. It ain't gonna make the world a safer place.

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Killer Joe

15 years ago

In 1975 I hired an 18 year old male fresh out of prison to work for me.

His crime?

He took his dad's 12 gauge shotgun to school when he was 13 and opened fire on a group of teachers. It wasn't pretty to say the least.

It also didn't get national news coverage like it would have today.

You need to be careful about what you believe is *news*. A lot of what is going on these days has been going on for a long long time.

The difference is the news media has figured out a way to make profits off of these stories so they get *airplay*.

Our kids are fine...the grown-ups are the one I would worry about. Some of them take pride in profiting off others misfortune without caring one iota about the consequences.

Btw, guns don't create these problems anymore than spoons made Rosie O'Donnell fat.

KJ

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designfuschion

15 years ago

getting rid of guns is not the answer. The criminals will then have hidden weapons.
Here in oz,after the port arthur massacre back in 1996 Howard made it illegal to own guns without a licence/registered gun/s..and has the crime rate gone down?
..

No! it hasn't.
If anything,the bikie war with cops is now escalating. (the mostly due to outlawing of gangs in south australia)

Look at the 20;s when the prohibition was around. It just drove drinking underground.

The answer to stop crime and shootings is educating our kids and truly listen to them.
and yes ,provide the opportunities to achieve our dreams instead of forcing kids into careers they hate or whats expected of them.

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Tina Golden

15 years ago

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Ken Strong

15 years ago

Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises

Okay, maybe I missed it, but I didn't say anything about the identity of the shooter so it could be an 80-year old man for all you know. Just because it happened at Harvard doesn't mean it was a college student doing the shooting.

Exactly -- people get shot every day, but because it happened at an upper-crust institution it becomes big news.

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Norma Holt

15 years ago

Originally Posted by designfuschion

getting rid of guns is not the answer. The criminals will then have hidden weapons.
Here in oz,after the port arthur massacre back in 1996 Howard made it illegal to own guns without a licence/registered gun/s..and has the crime rate gone down?
..

No! it hasn't.
If anything,the bikie war with cops is now escalating. (the mostly due to outlawing of gangs in south australia)

Look at the 20;s when the prohibition was around. It just drove drinking underground.

The answer to stop crime and shootings is educating our kids and truly listen to them.
and yes ,provide the opportunities to achieve our dreams instead of forcing kids into careers they hate or whats expected of them.

I don't like to disagree but guns are not the issue now in Australia that they were before the ban. Most use other weapons and even the recent bikie killing at mascot was done with a bollard. If assailant had had a gun maybe more people would have died or been injured.

The need to own guns is probably outdated in the USA also. Gone the days when shooting Indians was popular and killing wild game is not outlawed is you have a shooters license. Everyone and his dog can get a gun in the States and I think that is a large part of the problem. Also the way guns are kept is another factor.

My son is President of the local Shooters Club and he has guns that must be locked in a safe, which is the law.

God bless

Norma

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Kay King

15 years ago

I dislike it when both sides of a controversial issue will say anything and everything to "prove" their rightness. Thus, facts get twisted, left out - only the facts that support their own view is publicized. This gives a warped view of the entire problem.

Guns can't be produced like liquor in the backwoods with a still. They aren't comparable. We talk about protection and about criminals still having guns - but the largest number of deaths in the US from guns is from young people shooting each other, drivebys, gang wars, domestic violence and suicide.

I'm not anti-gun. But I see no logic to the argument that anyone needs a fully automatic weapon or an assault weapon -- for any purpose.

Both sides of the gun debate offer "what if's" and use scare tactics - but they don't quote the numbers. The numbers don't lie. The numbers below reflect all gun deaths, accidental, murder and suicide.

England and Wales - average about 825 gun deaths per year. Accounting for population that is about 1 gun death for 78,000 of the population.

Numbers released in Australia ten years after their gun laws went into effect showed a decrease in gun deaths of 50%. Interesting info at
FactCheck.org: Did gun control in Australia lead to more murders there last year?

In the US, 17,000 deaths per year from guns is the estimate. With our population, that seems to be 1 in 17,000 of the population. It's not something to be proud of.

I'm not for banning all guns. I am for tight regulation and bans on some weapons that have no use for hunting, targets or anything else except the killing they were made for.

``If you have a country saturated with guns -- available to people when they are intoxicated, angry or depressed -- it's not unusual guns will be used more often,''

As for the OP story - sounds like just another shooting on a regular day.

kay

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petevamp 15 years ago

I don't know why don't we just bring back the exacution like texas has and allow people to start bearing arms as texas does as well.
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GarrieWilson

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Guns can't be produced like liquor in the backwoods with a still.

Actually, any machinest or black smith can make a gun. It might be fairly basic but easily done.

They aren't comparable. We talk about protection and about criminals still having guns - but the largest number of deaths in the US from guns is from young people shooting each other, drivebys, gang wars, domestic violence and suicide.

Ummm... Yeah. Criminals. The people who get black market or stolen guns. For the most part.

I'm not anti-gun. But I see no logic to the argument that anyone needs a fully automatic weapon or an assault weapon -- for any purpose.

I can and it has happened before. The government stops acting on be half of the people. You might remember that from history class. And yes, that was people fighting their own government.

I'm not for banning all guns. I am for tight regulation and bans on some weapons that have no use for hunting, targets or anything else except the killing they were made for.

Bans solve nothing. They are costly and people will kill in other ways. Remember, you are just a search a way from finding out how to make bombs from house hold items. Should we ban information too? Wait... we did to an extent. Better ban the Internet.

If you want to stop violence, start with educating people on respect for oneself and others.

As far as only hunting... every gun was made for killing. Everyone. But how do you plan on people taking hunters guns an killing people? Think that wont happen? Oh wait... It already has.

But what calliber would your ban allow? .22? .38? The bigger the calliber the bigger the bang. But you can't hunt deer very well w/ a .22 unless you are a damn good shot.

As far as stats, sure you can say bans reduce gun related deaths but they don't reduce crime. Thats the great thing about stats. They look pretty and backup what a person belives until everything is reviled.

For example, what was it before the ban?

From 2004:

The National Academy of Sciences issued a 328-page report based on 253 journal articles, 99 books, 43 government publications, a survey of 80 different gun-control laws and some of its own independent study. In short, the panel could find no link between restrictions on gun ownership and lower rates of crime, firearms violence or even accidents with guns.

The report noted that many schools have programs intended to prevent gun violence. However, it added, some studies suggest that children's curiosity and teenagers' attraction to risk make them resistant to the programs or that the projects actually increase the appeal of guns.

Much like the DARE program but hey if society thinks it works then it must.:rolleyes:

The study noted the number of criminals who obtained guns from retail outlets was dwarfed by the number of those who picked up their arms through means other than legal purchases. The report was the result of interviews with more than 18,000 state and federal inmates conducted nationwide. It found that nearly 80 percent of those interviewed got their guns from friends or family members, or on the street through illegal purchases.

Less than 9 percent were bought at retail outlets and only seven-tenths of 1 percent came from gun shows.

Heres more nifty information...

Since Australia's 1996 laws banning most guns and making it a crime to use a gun defensively, armed robberies rose by 51%, unarmed robberies by 37%, assaults by 24% and kidnappings by 43%. While murders fell by 3%, manslaughter rose by 16%.

"Gun laws don't reduce crime," USA Today (May 9, 2002).

Norway has the highest rate of gun ownership in Western Europe, yet possesses the lowest murder rate. In contrast, Holland's murder rate is nearly the worst, despite having the lowest gun ownership rate in Western Europe. Sweden and Denmark are two more examples of nations with high murder rates but few guns."

http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/...useronline.pdf

I could go on and on with facts from independent studies showing how gun bans do not work to decrease crime.

Remeber, don't just look at stats or "facts" that agree with your stance.

Garrie

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John Henderson

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

England and Wales - average about 825 gun deaths per year. Accounting for population that is about 1 gun death for 78,000 of the population.

Cripes Kay, I hope not! The figures for 2008 show 42 firearm-related deaths in England, Scotland and Wales. In 2007, it was 51.
Britain records 18% fall in gun deaths - Crime, UK - The Independent

Originally Posted by Kay King

Numbers released in Australia ten years after their gun laws went into effect showed a decrease in gun deaths of 50%. Interesting info at
FactCheck.org: Did gun control in Australia lead to more murders there last year?

You can see the line on the graph representing homocides dip after the 1996 ban:
Firearm related deaths [CFI no. 66]

Originally Posted by Kay King

In the US, 17,000 deaths per year from guns is the estimate. With our population, that seems to be 1 in 17,000 of the population. It's not something to be proud of.

In 2001, it was 29,573 -- but that included a lot of suicides:
Bureau of Justice Statistics Key Facts at a Glance - Firearm deaths by intent

There's a very interesting (but large!) graph which compares the percentage of households that possess a gun for a given country with that country's homocide rate...
www.gun-control-network.org/International.gif

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GarrieWilson

15 years ago

The need to own guns is probably outdated in the USA also.

No it's not.

If someone breaks into your home and wants to rape your child would you, wouldnt you want a gun to stop them? Even if the ony have bats?

In the US, we have guns to not only protect ourselves from people but also Washington. A senator gave a brilliant speech about the founding fathers wanting the people to be able to protect itself from thee government.

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markaustin

15 years ago

As long as the earth spins around the sun, there will be good people and there will be bad people. Unfortunately, bad people do bad things. You can make the gun laws as tough as you want, but you will still have violent crime. You can even outlaw guns, but you will still have violent crime.

People commit crime, not guns. There's a lot of truth to the old saying, "If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have them."

However, I totally understand Petevamp's position. Not a day goes by that I'm not reading in our local paper about somebody shooting somebody. It's really depressing ... it hasn't always been this bad.

Yes, we do need laws governing guns ... laws which are already in place. We don't need more laws, we have enough. Instead of trying to pass more laws, perhaps instead we should look at why so much violence exists?

Martin makes an interesting point, "How have we failed our kids?"

Have any of you guys seen some of the video games our kids are playing nowadays? I'm talking about extreme graphic violence in some of these games. Or have you watched some of the movies our kids watch?

When our culture has a tendancy to glorify violence in our games and entertainment, how can we expect our reality to be any different?

Mark

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HeySal

15 years ago

This is to ANYONE who believes we need to ban guns.

I want you to take a look at the Stories below and say again that you think that we need to be rid of our guns Mind you - these are just a sample. I don't have a year to cut and paste.
Yes - guns are scary. Yes, innocent people get killed. But a lot of people are alive because they were able to defend themselves when they had to. Do you HONESTLY believe that someone else can defend you at all times? If you believe that, then someone needs to slap you awake before you get hurt or killed yourself.
I lived with a local mafia family for 7 years and I will tell you this and you need to listen to it -- a criminal can get a gun any time he has the cash for one. Do you think taking all legal guns will keep you safe? Hahahahaha.
This world is scary - you need to cowboy up and get some fortitude, because the bottom line is no one can protect you 24/7. You better learn to do at least a bit of that for yourself.
You might get killed by a criminal. I might get killed by a maniac. That is how the world is and there is nothing that taking guns away from law abiding citizens will do to turn that around - but if you take guns from law abiding citizens, you make them into sitting ducks and none of us deserve that because you are too scared to deal with the real world.

I won't even bring up the fact of the Constitution and what that says about defending ourselves from a government that goes out of control and becomes a danger to its own citizens because that might make you pee yourself if you actually were able to realize how real that prophecy is becoming.

Now go whimper about gun control to these people:

Tampa, Florida - A Hillsborough County middle school teacher shot and killed a burglar who burst into her home Friday morning.
Sheriff's deputies say 62-year-old Juanita Enzor was in her bedroom around 5 a.m. when a man kicked in the front door.
Detectives say when the man confronted Enzor, she grabbed her gun and fired, shooting the man in the chest
Hillsborough teacher shoots and kills intruder | 10connects.com | Tampa, St. Petersburg, Clearwater

College Student Shoots, Kills Intruder - Saves 11 Lives
theblogprof: College Student Shoots, Kills Intruder - Saves 11 Lives

Dallas woman shoots, kills intruder
09:29 AM CDT on Wednesday, April 15, 2009
Dallas woman shoots, kills intruder | Latest News | WFAA.com

Police: Resident shoots, kills intruder in Midvale apartment break-in
The Salt Lake Tribune
Updated: 05/05/2009 11:32:22 AM MDT
Midvale » Police say they are looking for as many as eight or nine assailants after a home invasion early Tuesday at a Midvale apartment that ended when one of the residents shot and killed a suspect.
Police: Resident shoots, kills intruder in Midvale apartment break-in - Salt Lake Tribune

'Hello, Hello': Man Shoots, Kills Intruder After Parrot's Alert
Breitbart.tv ‘Hello, Hello’: Man Shoots, Kills Intruder After Parrot’s Alert

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petevamp

15 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

This is to ANYONE who believes we need to ban guns.

So you are against our constitutional rights. Guns don't kill people people kill people. You ban guns they will just turn to other methods to kill if they are going to kill. I am not saying that guns do not make that easier. However if you own a foid as I do you know about all the things you need to supply to obtain a foid.

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Ken Strong

15 years ago

Originally Posted by petevamp

So you are against our constitutional rights. Guns don't kill people people kill people. You ban guns they will just turn to other methods to kill if they are going to kill. I am not saying that guns do not make that easier. However if you own a foid as I do you know about all the things you need to supply to obtain a foid.

Did you actually READ her post?

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dorim

15 years ago

Originally Posted by petevamp

So you are against our constitutional rights. Guns don't kill people people kill people. You ban guns they will just turn to other methods to kill if they are going to kill. I am not saying that guns do not make that easier. However if you own a foid as I do you know about all the things you need to supply to obtain a foid.

Read the post again slowly, then reply.

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petevamp 15 years ago

Originally Posted by dorim

Read the post again slowly, then reply.

I made this trend So why would I need to read something I started in the first place. If You are saying read a post specify which one I know what everyone is talkig about on this trend because I started it.

Most are saying tougher gun laws. I as well as a few others are saying we do not need tougher gun laws we need to inforce current gun laws. We also need to bring back the second amendment allowing people to bare arms once again as taxas does. We make tougher gun laws we abolish the constitution our four fathers created for our protection. So now I ask you what freedoms do we really have as an us citezen. The answer to that question is we do not have freedom any more. Our freedom has been stolen from us one way or another by our government current and past. Again take the seat belt law. This that ah we are going to save lives. So what it does not need to be a law. It should be our choice if we want to wear our seatbelts or not. On the other hand I do agree that we should force our kids to wear seatbelts. How ever if i am just going to go down to my corner store not even a few blocks a way in my car. I pass a cop on my way there get pulled over and herased just because I did not have my seatbelt on. So I tell you dorim how about you read the post before you reply. I know what is being said here I started it. I am pissed that our goverments allow our kids in school to obtain guns. The incident at niu not even 2 hours from me. That kid bought a gun leagally with a foid and turned around a few days after owning it and shot a few people at the school including himself. Now again this kid was on medication for some depressionary illiness or what not. So why was he allowed to obtain a foid and then turn around and buy a gun. You already know he has issues of some sort. Fix the system and the people will follow.

Guns dont kill people

People Kill People
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HeySal

15 years ago

Originally Posted by petevamp

So you are against our constitutional rights. Guns don't kill people people kill people. You ban guns they will just turn to other methods to kill if they are going to kill. I am not saying that guns do not make that easier. However if you own a foid as I do you know about all the things you need to supply to obtain a foid.

Uh.....Actually I presumed that the 2nd amendment WAS one of our constitutional rights.
Read my post again - and the links - which are stories about how law abiding citizens were able to save themselves and their families because they Had guns.

Um...I am also in favor of literacy.

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petevamp

15 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Uh.....Actually I presumed that the 2nd amendment WAS one of our constitutional rights.
Read my post again - and the links - which are stories about how law abiding citizens were able to save themselves and their families because they Had guns.

Um...I am also in favor of literacy.

And Heysal I did realize what you where trying to point out after I had posted that. I just did not have the time to edit the post nor did I think it would matter. That is the point of a forum its makes room for discussion. If people did not want to discus this topic they would not have opened it in the first place. I did not mean to snap towards you. I just seen a few post in here that sating we should eliminate guns all together which would be the worst thing we could possibly do.

If we where to do that not only does it destroy our constitution. We all give up another part of the constitution besides freedom. There is a section in the constitution that states when our current government is not working any more. We the people can change it. With out our governments recourse. The government would not stand for this and would fight us the people to keep it from changing there greeding needs. Now if you eliminate our right as part of the constitution to own a gun. You also eliminate our right to stand up and fight back for the changes that have needed to be done for years. How ever we can not allow our government to make these changes on our behalf we the people need to make these changes with out our government.

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by petevamp

And Heysal I did realize what you where trying to point out after I had posted that. I just did not have the time to edit the post nor did I think it would matter. That is the point of a forum its makes room for discussion. If people did not want to discus this topic they would not have opened it in the first place. I did not mean to snap towards you. I just seen a few post in here that sating we should eliminate guns all together which would be the worst thing we could possibly do.

If we where to do that not only does it destroy our constitution. We all give up another part of the constitution besides freedom. There is a section in the constitution that states when our current government is not working any more. We the people can change it. With out our governments recourse. The government would not stand for this and would fight us the people to keep it from changing there greeding needs. Now if you eliminate our right as part of the constitution to own a gun. You also eliminate our right to stand up and fight back for the changes that have needed to be done for years. How ever we can not allow our government to make these changes on our behalf we the people need to make these changes with out our government.

The government shouldnt HAVE to make changes on our behalf. But if we dont curb ourselves, there is no other choice.

A constitution doesnt give you free reign to do whatever whenever. People dont use their own common sense and always have to push a boundary until they finally push too far. when that happens people start bitching and freedoms get lost.

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Ken Strong

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

The government shouldnt HAVE to make changes on our behalf.

We certainly wouldn't want to inconvenience them, would we?

What else is it there for?

But if we dont curb ourselves, there is no other choice.

Only if you assume that our government is our Mommy and Daddy, and always knows best, and must punish us if we misbehave too much.

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by KenStrong

We certainly wouldn't want to inconvenience them, would we?

What else is it there for?

Only if you assume that our government is our Mommy and Daddy, and always knows best, and must punish us if we misbehave too much.

You're not getting it.

The government shouldnt have to tell you to do these things or not do these things. One would hope common sense would prevail. But we seem to have a shortage of that in this country.

They government shouldnt HAVE to tell you to wash your hands to stop the spread of sickness, if everyone washed their hands like common sense says you should do

The government shouldnt HAVE to tell you that you can't do 120mph in a school zone, if everyone drove like they had common sense.

unfortunately we have a lot of idiots in this country that think the constitution gives them carte blanche to rock out with their c**k out and it just doesnt work that way.

So since the Stupids of the country can't monitor and control themselves, then the government has to. Dont want to gov't in your life? stop being stupid.

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petevamp

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

The government shouldnt HAVE to make changes on our behalf. But if we dont curb ourselves, there is no other choice.

A constitution doesnt give you free reign to do whatever whenever. People dont use their own common sense and always have to push a boundary until they finally push too far. when that happens people start bitching and freedoms get lost.

Ok so why exactly is my freedom to drive with out a seatbelt taken away. This is a F---ing Choice. Why do I have to risk giving up my m 16 and other weapons just because of a few bad apples that fell off the tree somewhere in their life. I agree we should make our kids wear their seat belts. As an adult it should be your CHOICE no questions asked. Think about it this way.

You want to build a deck on the back of your house. Well guess what you have to go to your city and get there approval. You have to buy permits that allow you to do this. Now you have to go to your assosiation if you live in this type of neighborhood and get there approval. You will also have to pay them sort of fee if it is aprroved. Now why do we have to pay an extra 300-1000 just to add on to our own property. You own the property the goverment, cities, and assosiations do not. So what happened here some one was gripping so my freedom to do what I want to my property is taken completly away.

You tell me how is this any different then most of the laws that have been placed in the last 20-30 years.

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webpromotions

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

The government shouldnt HAVE to make changes on our behalf. But if we dont curb ourselves, there is no other choice.

A constitution doesnt give you free reign to do whatever whenever. People dont use their own common sense and always have to push a boundary until they finally push too far. when that happens people start bitching and freedoms get lost.

Damn Michael...that was actually well put. Couldn't agree with you more...just when I was starting to think you were one of those 'come and live on my Montana compound' freaks.

PeteVamp - maybe this sounds petty, but your last post was so full of spelling and grammar errors that I could barely read it. That was really bad.

Even being ESL wouldn't be an excuse for that post.

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JorgeD 15 years ago

Some countries are much more violent than others. The US is one of the more violent ones: violent crime, spousal abuse, child abuse. I think a lot of the blame is the culture itself: movies, computer games, militarism, historical violence: slavery, Indian genocide, imperialism (Philippines and various others), and the like, contribute to the brutalization of people and putting forward violence as a solution to problems. Even in commerce there is this undertone of violence: "crush your competition," "Google annihilation," and so on.
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petevamp

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Doug English

Damn Michael...that was actually well put. Couldn't agree with you more...just when I was starting to think you were one of those 'come and live on my Montana compound' freaks.

PeteVamp - maybe this sounds petty, but your last post was so full of spelling and grammar errors that I could barely read it. That was really bad.

Even being ESL wouldn't be an excuse for that post.

The spelling and grammar errors are not what makes it some what difficult to read. I only seen a few spelling and grammar errors myself. What makes it hard to read is I left a few words out from being in a hurry to type it. Do you need me to slow it down for you.

If complaining is the reason be hind most of our laws.

Why do we have to pay the city and associations just to put a deck on our property.

It is our property we should be able to do what we please to it.

Why do we have to wear a seat belt just because someone complained they lost their 16 yr old son. Probably because he caused an accident or he was driving under the influence.

Are laws are made by a government that wants to control us to its fullest.

We have not had freedom in the united states since atleast the 40 or 50's

I believe this is really what is wrong with our kids.

They have realized we do not have freedom.

Our government passes more useless laws then we really need. All because the want to embolism the constitution as well as our rights.

I also believe that this is the true reason most countries now hate. What was once the most prosperous country. Having the one thing no other country really had. Which was freedom.

There freedom was taken from them from their government.

Yet they fear their government.

Now do you understand. Typos and grammar are going to be common in any ones post. I personally do not have 25 minutes to make sure every thing is perfect for you.

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HeySal

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

The government shouldnt HAVE to make changes on our behalf. But if we dont curb ourselves, there is no other choice.

A constitution doesnt give you free reign to do whatever whenever. People dont use their own common sense and always have to push a boundary until they finally push too far. when that happens people start bitching and freedoms get lost.

Bull Shit - it is not in the scope of Government to do such "curbing" = they are not our masters.

It is up to people and their communities to work to control lunacy. Many want Gov to do it for them so they don't have to shut the TV or cell phone off to cure our ills.

To tell the truth - humans are pack animals and don't do well in cramped societies. We do best in small communities. The more over crowded areas become, the more mentally ill humans are going to get. The more humans there are polluting the environment the more insane they will become.

Not much different than the Fall of Rome....didn't learn from that one either.

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

There's nothing wrong with the kids. Its the parents.

I grew up in a house with a sizeable arsenal. Probably 4-5 shotguns, 3-4 rifles, half a dozen handguns and all the ammo you could possibly ever need.

we were taught what guns were at a young age. i started getting guns for bday presents when i was about 10. We never would have thought of taking them to school because we were told how they worked, what they do. We also would have never been dumb enough to look down the barrel to see where the bang comes from.

If you dont pay attention to kids, they will get in trouble on their own. If you dont tell them how something works, and hide it from them then when they find it, they will play with it because they dont know any better.

guns dont make kids take guns to school. crappy parents do.

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petevamp

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

There's nothing wrong with the kids. Its the parents.

I grew up in a house with a sizeable arsenal. Probably 4-5 shotguns, 3-4 rifles, half a dozen handguns and all the ammo you could possibly ever need.

we were taught what guns were at a young age. i started getting guns for bday presents when i was about 10. We never would have thought of taking them to school because we were told how they worked, what they do. We also would have never been dumb enough to look down the barrel to see where the bang comes from.

If you dont pay attention to kids, they will get in trouble on their own. If you dont tell them how something works, and hide it from them then when they find it, they will play with it because they dont know any better.

guns dont make kids take guns to school. crappy parents do.

Yea but another thing is that these are ot kids for the most part. These people know how these things work. They alos know what they do. They know what they are really used for. The only ones that can stop the fact that this keeps happening. Is the people its self. This is why I say guns dont kill people people kill people. The gun does not make the person point it at someone else and pull that trigger.

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jacktackett

15 years ago

Can't agree with you more Michael. I've taught my kids what a gun is, how they work, and what they're for. AND that they're not toys. In addition, I keep mine in a gun safe, with a trigger lock with the understand that if they want to see them - the kids just have to ask. That takes care of the curiosity factor. I've taught them also to go get an adult if they find one, or ammunition. again - these are not toys and they know that. Also to run and get an adult if any of their friends start's "playing" with a gun.

Kids are not adults, but they are not dummies either. Talk with them, listen to them, and TEACH them. Both with words and by example. Listen, while they don't come with instruction sets, you can teach you're children to protect themselves and be good citizens.

ITS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY - NOT THE STATE'S, and NOT SOCIETY'S!

I also teach them that being a bully, hurting people, etc is WRONG. But I also teach them to defend themselves too, and each other, and their friends.

And while we all yield to peer pressure, I try to teach them to think for themselves and that different means different, not BAD.

It's Hard work, and it may take a while to sink in, but I just don't understand what other parents think today.

Have these sheeple just decided its the state's responsibility to teach their kids? Just WTF is it? Wish I knew. How freaking hard is it to teach your child that hurting someone else for fun, or more likely, because you're mad at them, is just WRONG. Say it with me folks - WRONG.

My kids are normal - they misbehave and have tantrums etc-but they've learned there are repercussions for their actions.

I also give them the chance to fail-failing is the only real way we learn IMHO. Its ok to mess up as long as they learn, are repentant, and help fix the issue.

And mostly - I've tried to teach them self esteem and that their mommy and daddy loves them. I keep them long on hugs and short on spending money.

We go do things together and I read to them. I am ashamed that they probably watch more TV than I vowed I'd let them when we got them, but never on a school night and only for a while on the weekends. we have 2 tvs in the house, one in the family room and one our bedroom. They do not have a TV in their bedrooms. They do have full book cases though. And we have about 40 stocked and a few 1/2 stocked book cases throughout the house. oh - reminds me, need to get another book case....

Again - great post Michael - I'll get off my soap box now and let someone else use it.

--Jack

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

There's nothing wrong with the kids. Its the parents.

I grew up in a house with a sizeable arsenal. Probably 4-5 shotguns, 3-4 rifles, half a dozen handguns and all the ammo you could possibly ever need.

we were taught what guns were at a young age. i started getting guns for bday presents when i was about 10. We never would have thought of taking them to school because we were told how they worked, what they do. We also would have never been dumb enough to look down the barrel to see where the bang comes from.

If you dont pay attention to kids, they will get in trouble on their own. If you dont tell them how something works, and hide it from them then when they find it, they will play with it because they dont know any better.

guns dont make kids take guns to school. crappy parents do.

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GarrieWilson

15 years ago

Michael,

Thats true to an extent BUT there is something wrong w/ kids.

They do not respect life and others. Which, for the most part, is the parents fault.

I'd bet your parents taught you more important lessons than gun safety.

Garrie

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Star69

15 years ago

Lots of posts about this already in this thread. That tells me how volatile this issue is and how much people disagree with each other (but that's okay. That's what makes life worth living!)

My opinion:

YES! We need to change the gun laws in the United States!

Restricting weapons from campus and other laws such as that are what enable people to get away with crap like this in the first place.

We can take this right back to Columbine High School. If the shooters knew there was an excellent chance that they would encounter armed civilians ready and willing to take them out, would they have done what they did?

Or if you know I am carrying a fully-loaded concealed weapon and am trained to use it, are you going to try to mug me? Or will you leave me alone and try to find someone who is an easier target?

An armed society is much better than an unarmed society, in that people can protect themselves at any moment of the day. Rather than restricting gun rights (a phenomenally ignorant and unattainable goal in this country) almost anyone who wants to should be allowed to learn how to use a handgun and carry it concealed on their person...without a permit. (Permits are only for raising funds for the state.)

I say change the gun laws...to allow more people to own and carry concealed weapons.

This kind of thing would be nipped in the bud by responsible gun owners who just happen to be there at the time.

If teachers were allowed to carry concealed weapons, the Columbine incident would have been a mere three paragraphs in the local paper instead of one of the worst mass-school shootings in the history of the United States.

If guns kill people, do pencils misspell words?

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Gun laws need to be enforced, not changed. If you legislate away the ability to protect yourself, you make yourself a prime target for people that dont give a crap about laws in the first place.

And as a bonus, those same people are the ones that dont register weapons either. You dont see law abididing registered gun owners killing college kids or going into their kids schools and shooting each other up

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petevamp

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

Gun laws need to be enforced, not changed. If you legislate away the ability to protect yourself, you make yourself a prime target for people that dont give a crap about laws in the first place.

And as a bonus, those same people are the ones that dont register weapons either. You dont see law abididing registered gun owners killing college kids or going into their kids schools and shooting each other up

Now that is not true Michael what about the niu incident. He had obtained a foid allowing him to own a firearm. He was allowed to own a gun even though he had known issues with his personality and he was taking meds for the issue but was still obtained a foid a few weeks before bought a gun a few days later and still went into NIU and shot I do not remember how many it was. I do know that he did not survive the shoot out with the cops. Now on another note. What about those guys that robbed that bank with full body armor from head to toe. Our police officer only had pistols and shot guns which their bullets just bounced right off the armor.

So for this fact I would have to aggee with the post above you. Which as he is saying. If you take our constiutional rights. We have the right to bare arms. Only texas has this right. You do not hear of these matters happening in tex. So if it works there why not make use be able to bare arms as our constitution says. Freedom whats that do we really have freedom here in the states. The answer is no. Why do you think they make laws saying you have to wear a seat belt. This is a choice to wear a seat belt it shuld not be a law. Why do you think they say if you get too many tickets your driving rights will be revoked. Again they say its a driving right but what they really mean is that its a privlage.

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by petevamp

Now that is not true Michael what about the niu incident. He had obtained a foid allowing him to own a firearm. He was allowed to own a gun even though he had known issues with his personality and he was taking meds for the issue but was still obtained a foid a few weeks before bought a gun a few days later and still went into NIU and shot I do not remember how many it was. I do know that he did not survive the shoot out with the cops. Now on another note. What about those guys that robbed that bank with full body armor from head to toe. Our police officer only had pistols and shot guns which their bullets just bounced right off the armor.

So for this fact I would have to aggee with the post above you. Which as he is saying. If you take our constiutional rights. We have the right to bare arms. Only texas has this right. You do not hear of these matters happening in tex. So if it works there why not make use be able to bare arms as our constitution says. Freedom whats that do we really have freedom here in the states. The answer is no. Why do you think they make laws saying you have to wear a seat belt. This is a choice to wear a seat belt it shuld not be a law. Why do you think they say if you get too many tickets your driving rights will be revoked. Again they say its a driving right but what they really mean is that its a privlage.

The right to bear arms doesnt mean that you have no responsiblilities other than to buy a weapon.

Personally i like the laws we have, i like that there is a 3 day waiting list and i like that pople have to go through a bit to get a weapon like a military style rifle.

a good portion of the people that own weapons are the exact type of people that shouldnt own weapons. granted they arent crazy or delusional, but they are people that dont know a damn thing about owning a tool that can take a life. They have never fired, dont know how to maintain or store, dont even know how to carry that weapon and dont think that they should have to learn how.

Sorry, but i can pull my pistol out and effectively end 14 lives if i have it loaeded all the way up any timei feel like it, you cant see me coming until you're looking at my barrel at the end of your nose.

But if i get in a car, that usually doesnt kill that many in a swipe when it happens, and you can easily see when one is coming at you, you have to take a written and physical test.

how the hell does that work out? Back in the days of the constitution, they had black powder weapons, you didnt have to worry about your neighbor who didnt know d**k about black powder weapons firing off his weapon accidentally, going through his wall, your wall and your chest because he's being stupid. Weapons are different now and things like the right to bear arms should be adjusted from time to time to keep up with tech.

The right to bear arms doesnt give you unfettered access to own any piece of hardware you like without question. Its not stomping on your rights.

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petevamp

15 years ago

[quote=Michael Motley;801631]
a good portion of the people that own weapons are the exact type of people that shouldnt own weapons. granted they arent crazy or delusional, but they are people that dont know a damn thing about owning a tool that can take a life. They have never fired, dont know how to maintain or store, dont even know how to carry that weapon and dont think that they should have to learn how.[quote]
Not true I own guns I have a foid. So you are saying that because I own a gun leagally I know nothing about what guns can do. First off that is where you are wrong. I have been around guns since I was a very very young kid. So young that the first gun I fired was a 22 revolver. I was not even able to hold the gun up. So me and my dad built a stand just so I could shoot the gun at a shooting range in wisonsin. So I know what guns can do. Not only that I am also a hunter. So how can you say I know nothing about a gun being able to take a life. When the last time I went out hunting I nabbed 3 rabits and 6 phesants. All of them where on my property so guess what no hunting license needed to hunt on private property.

[quote]Sorry, but i can pull my pistol out and effectively end 14 lives if i have it loaeded all the way up any timei feel like it, you cant see me coming until you're looking at my barrel at the end of your nose.[quote]

That staement alone is the reason you should not be able to own any type of weapon. This is the type of thinking that those kids are thinking. So let me ask you this have you ever contiplated going through a mall with a m 16 yelling killem all. I bet you have I know I have not. Yet that quote of your above is rather disturbing. How can you say that in your first quote a good portion of the people that own weapons are the exact type of people that shouldnt own weapons. granted they arent crazy or delusional, but they are people that dont know a damn thing about owning a tool that can take a life. They have never fired, dont know how to maintain or store, dont even know how to carry that weapon and dont think that they should have to learn how.

and then follow it up with your next comment. You are the type of person we need to take guns and all weapons from before you do run through a mall with a m 16 yelling killem all.

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

[quote=petevamp;801764][quote=Michael Motley;801631]
a good portion of the people that own weapons are the exact type of people that shouldnt own weapons. granted they arent crazy or delusional, but they are people that dont know a damn thing about owning a tool that can take a life. They have never fired, dont know how to maintain or store, dont even know how to carry that weapon and dont think that they should have to learn how.

Not true I own guns I have a foid. So you are saying that because I own a gun leagally I know nothing about what guns can do. First off that is where you are wrong. I have been around guns since I was a very very young kid. So young that the first gun I fired was a 22 revolver. I was not even able to hold the gun up. So me and my dad built a stand just so I could shoot the gun at a shooting range in wisonsin. So I know what guns can do. Not only that I am also a hunter. So how can you say I know nothing about a gun being able to take a life. When the last time I went out hunting I nabbed 3 rabits and 6 phesants. All of them where on my property so guess what no hunting license needed to hunt on private property.

so then you have experience with a weapon and arent the kind of person being described. you are preaching to the choir. If youre going to debate, try to debate the entire statement, not the little snippet you think you can build your argument from that was taken out of context.

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Kay King

15 years ago

Lots of posts - not too much listening going on. The OP was arguing with someone who agreed with him!

Garrie - I'm not by any means well versed on Australian law but the laws I looked up were from 1988 as I recall. I don't know what crime rates have done there but the facts given on what appear to be authority sites are that deaths from guns have been cut in half. Perhaps that's inaccurate.

What I did notice that shocked me was that the US is SO high when it comes to death from guns.

There's no easy answer - perhaps no answer at all. I own a gun now and carried a smaller gun with me for years working in Atlanta (after a woman in my office was murdered and I had a scary encounter with a customer).

We always read that it's not money - but the love of money that is the problem. Maybe it's the same with guns. Maybe it's the love of power associated with weapons rather than the gun itself.

I agree that we don't need more laws and I also have come to feel we need to have guns as citizens - a view I didn't hold just a few years ago.

But I think exposing children to killing and bloodletting as "aha" moments in games is wrong. Of course, years ago the bad guys were shot, but never died....maybe that's just as confusing. I guess if we had the answers, we wouldn't have the problem.

kay

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petevamp

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Lots of posts - not too much listening going on. The OP was arguing with someone who agreed with him!

Garrie - I'm not by any means well versed on Australian law but the laws I looked up were from 1988 as I recall. I don't know what crime rates have done there but the facts given on what appear to be authority sites are that deaths from guns have been cut in half. Perhaps that's inaccurate.

What I did notice that shocked me was that the US is SO high when it comes to death from guns.

There's no easy answer - perhaps no answer at all. I own a gun now and carried a smaller gun with me for years working in Atlanta (after a woman in my office was murdered and I had a scary encounter with a customer).

We always read that it's not money - but the love of money that is the problem. Maybe it's the same with guns. Maybe it's the love of power associated with weapons rather than the gun itself.

I agree that we don't need more laws and I also have come to feel we need to have guns as citizens - a view I didn't hold just a few years ago.

But I think exposing children to killing and bloodletting as "aha" moments in games is wrong. Of course, years ago the bad guys were shot, but never died....maybe that's just as confusing. I guess if we had the answers, we wouldn't have the problem.

kay

Well There is not much listening going on because everyone has there own oppinion. Which is why its a discussion and not really a formality. We need to do something to stop this but no one really knows what that something is.

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GarrieWilson

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Lots of posts - not too much listening going on. The OP was arguing with someone who agreed with him!

Garrie - I'm not by any means well versed on Australian law but the laws I looked up were from 1988 as I recall. I don't know what crime rates have done there but the facts given on what appear to be authority sites are that deaths from guns have been cut in half. Perhaps that's inaccurate.

In Englad hand gun crimes has risen 4x based on an older report.

The countries people use as examples, also already had lower rates than the US before the ban. The percents decreases are mute because they are talking about going from 1,000/year to 500. Yeah 50% but only 500. (Made the numbers up for example...) ie No real problem to start with.

And murders may go down but other crimes increase drastictly.

What I did notice that shocked me was that the US is SO high when it comes to death from guns.

Not a shock to me. Its a shame but no shock. If you consider the education and life most of these people live...

But I think exposing children to killing and bloodletting as "aha" moments in games is wrong. Of course, years ago the bad guys were shot, but never died....maybe that's just as confusing. I guess if we had the answers, we wouldn't have the problem.

I know the problem. Its two fold.

1. Parents. They no longer teach kids values, respect, etc.
2. Society. We glorify the wrong things. Movies like Blow and American Gangster show that you can lie, cheat and steal to get to the top. Hard work doesnt sell. We know that.

Garrie

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Star69

15 years ago

There is neither the manpower nor the funding to adequately enforce the gun laws that are on the books. Gun laws are not meant as a means to protect you, but merely as a means for the government to control you, to tell you what you can and can not do, legally, so they can fine you and make money. It is nothing but a system set up to steal money from the citizenry.

I don't give two squats about obeying any gun law restricting my second amendment right to bear arms. I carry concealed without a permit all the time and I would do so even if there were no 2nd Amendment. I am trained to use my weapon, I practice with my weapon at least once a month to stay sharp, and I am not afraid to use it to defend myself and others when I need to.

Criminals do not obey the law, why should the rest of us put ourselves in jeopardy by obeying them?

I feel the only way we will ever put a stop to these shootings is for armed and trained individuals to be on the scene to put a stop to it, using the same level of force, if necessary.

The police cannot be everywhere at the same time and it is still up to us to protect ourselves.

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webpromotions

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Star69

I don't give two squats about obeying any gun law restricting my second amendment right to bear arms. I carry concealed without a permit all the time and I would do so even if there were no 2nd Amendment.

If I'm not mistaken, aren't there only 2 states that don't have a concealed carry provision?
If you aren't in one of those 2 states, how is this something to be proud of? Why not follow the laws and get a permit?

Isn't this kind of thinking exactly why you WANT to carry a gun in the first place? Because of criminals that 'dont give two squats' about current laws? And pretty much what is behind this original post...that kids these days also 'dont give two squats' about current laws?

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petevamp

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Doug English

If I'm not mistaken, aren't there only 2 states that don't have a concealed carry provision?
If you aren't in one of those 2 states, how is this something to be proud of? Why not follow the laws and get a permit?

Isn't this kind of thinking exactly why you WANT to carry a gun in the first place? Because of criminals that 'dont give two squats' about current laws? And pretty much what is behind this original post...that kids these days also 'dont give two squats' about current laws?

I do not know how many states I only know of one which is texas texas also has the death penalty to and again you do not see anthing like ths happening there at all.

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Star69

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Doug English

If I'm not mistaken, aren't there only 2 states that don't have a concealed carry provision? If you aren't in one of those 2 states, how is this something to be proud of? Why not follow the laws and get a permit?

Why do I need a stinking permit in the first place? So the authorities will have my address so they will know exactly where to go when they decide to begin confiscating all of our weapons, so they are the only ones with weapons, so they can more effectively control us? Enslave us?

Why do you think the Jews couldn't resist against the Nazis? Because, if I believe correctly, they went in and banned ownership of weapons first. The Jews obeyed 'the law' and look what it got them.

Permits are only good for locating the weapons to be confiscated and a means of 'legally' stealing money from the populace, that's all permits are about.

In their way of thinking, they create a law that says you have to have a permit for something and charge people a certain amount of money to obtain it. If they are caught doing that without their permit, they can be fined/imprisoned, meaning the government and the penal system will make more money...money they wouldn't make without the permit laws...

Permits do not prevent mentally-ill people from obtaining weapons. I can buy a weapon from any person advertising one in a classified ad, exchange weapon for cash, no names, no background check, no nothing, not even a permit. I know a couple homeless guys in downtown Denver who can get me what I need within an hour. Need a snub-nosed .357 revolver? No problem. $50. Might be stolen, of course, but so what? Point is I don't need no stinking permit.

But an armed individual who happens to already be on the scene when a mentally ill person decides to start killing people can control that individual by taking them out.

On October 16, 1991, a deranged individual drive his pickup truck through the windows of a Luby's Cafeteria in Killeen, Texas. Then he got out and shot and killed 24 people before a Highway Patrol officer finally arrived on scene, causing the gunman to run into a restroom and kill himself.

A woman reportedly eating lunch inside was a gun owner, had her gun with her but did nothing. Why? Because she was obeying the gun laws and her weapon was locked in her vehicle in the parking lot. A lot of good that did to help prevent the deaths of 24 people.

Obeying the law almost got me killed. I've had not one, not two, but five handguns aimed at my head over the years, three of them pressed against my temple so hard it hurt. I was not armed because I was trying to obey the laws. I was at their mercy, and lucky for me they never pulled the trigger.

So what do I say about gun laws? Gun laws do not work. They only serve to fill the coffers of those who make the laws when we get caught for violating one of their laws.

If you ever see me, you'll be looking at an armed American. Since I said to hell with trying to obey the laws created by people who don't even live in the real world, I have not had even ONE gun aimed at me. That's good, because if you point a weapon at me intending to do me harm I will definitely shoot you, won't say a word, unless you happen to be wearing a badge, and even then I might not hesitate. Depends on how you are coming at me.

And don't think I'll stick around for the cops to get there and take names and numbers. They'll just want to see my permit...

I don't need no stinking permit. I'll keep my money in my pocket and maintain my privacy, and my life, thank you.

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Star69

15 years ago

I think the Second Amendment is fine just the way it is.

Even if they change it, eliminate it or whatever, it makes little difference to me. I'm a gun owner and always will be, by choice. They can call me a criminal, I don't care. That's just another label. Big deal.

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Norma Holt

15 years ago

Originally Posted by markaustin

However, I totally understand Petevamp's position. Not a day goes by that I'm not reading in our local paper about somebody shooting somebody. It's really depressing ... it hasn't always been this bad.

Yes, we do need laws governing guns ... laws which are already in place. We don't need more laws, we have enough. Instead of trying to pass more laws, perhaps instead we should look at why so much violence exists?

Martin makes an interesting point, "How have we failed our kids?"

I think society fails our children, its not just parents. Television, violent computer games, movies, peer pressure, schools, bad teachers, too much freedom, too much money, too much of everything and not enough responsibility.

As to the gun laws. The fact that USA allows people to shoot intruders is a crime in itself. In Australia if you harm an intruder in any way you can be charged and sued by the crim.

We will never get it right while people enjoy killing and the fact that we have so many wars, so many armies itching to try out their latest toys, so many spies and so many bad governments our children are taking the hit. Its no wonder they kill each other. Saw the latest a 14 year old boy now in adult prison being tried for his father's murder in USA.

God help us as we can't help ourselves.

Norma

Norma

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HeySal

15 years ago

As to the gun laws. The fact that USA allows people to shoot intruders is a crime in itself. In Australia if you harm an intruder in any way you can be charged and sued by the crim.

I hope you mean a crime according to your laws. It is a human right to defend yourself, your home, and your family. What is the crime is that our lawmakers are trying to force us to go against our very nature. We here are supposed to have private property and everyone knows that. If a criminal wants to break in- they must do so knowing that they are risking their own hide to victimize someone else.

The statistics of killings shows that our country has it right and Australia has it wrong - almost as many of our killings are people who are exercising their right to defend their own life from people who would hurt them as there are killings by criminals. Your own stats show that taking guns from law abiding citizens causes them to be slaughtered like sitting ducks by anyone who wants to take from them.

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Sal
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petevamp

15 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

I hope you mean a crime according to your laws. It is a human right to defend yourself, your home, and your family. What is the crime is that our lawmakers are trying to force us to go against our very nature. We here are supposed to have private property and everyone knows that. If a criminal wants to break in- they must do so knowing that they are risking their own hide to victimize someone else.

The statistics of killings shows that our country has it right and Australia has it wrong - almost as many of our killings are people who are exercising their right to defend their own life from people who would hurt them as there are killings by criminals. Your own stats show that taking guns from law abiding citizens causes them to be slaughtered like sitting ducks by anyone who wants to take from them.

Nicely put heysal

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How disturbing what is wrong with our kids these days

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