Is the Warrior Forum losing popularity?

by nik0 Banned
285 replies
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No offense but I only see a small group of people being active in this section specifically and for the rest it's a whole lot of spam and the same questions being repeated 24/7

Is (at least) this section slowly dieing?
#forum #losing #popularity #warrior
  • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
    Originally Posted by nik0 View Post

    No offense but I only see a small group of people being active in this section specifically and for the rest it's a whole lot of spam and the same questions being repeated 24/7

    Is (at least) this section slowly dieing?
    Been thinking the same. A lot of regulars over the years have left and the new posters seem to be relatively new to SEO.

    Don't underestimate how many people have given up due to Penguin and Panda updates. Rather than evolve and even adopt a little white hat they have instead chosen to bail out.
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    • Profile picture of the author nik0
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

      Been thinking the same. A lot of regulars over the years have left and the new posters seem to be relatively new to SEO.

      Don't underestimate how many people have given up due to Penguin and Panda updates. Rather than evolve and even adopt a little white hat they have instead chosen to bail out.
      I can understand they ball out though.

      As the last 1.5 year it was adapting over and over again and slowly Google wiped out almost the whole field, (the IM type of field I mean of course).

      What I wonder about, is that people say cause so many failed that the playing field is a lot thinner (can't deny that) and thus it would be easier to rank. However I don't agree with that last part as all those crappy IM sites were never any real competition in the first place.
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        • Profile picture of the author InterNauert
          There are currently 25576 members online. Seems to be doing alright...
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        • Profile picture of the author Greg99
          Yep...I would say it's losing popularity!! Think the main reason is "wham bam thank you Google" seo is now a thing of the past and most people find it excruciatingly difficult and time consuming making a website that might be of interest to the outside world..hence they give up before even trying......but there are defo more spam posters here asking the same questions, day in day out....
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        • Profile picture of the author nik0
          Banned
          Originally Posted by scottmacair View Post

          I think you might find this interesting:Google Trends
          Just as I thought yeah, I came here in January 2012 and it went from 85 to 52 (yeah actually 57 but that's just a tiny short lasting peak). That's almost half.

          And that's the whole warrior forum, I think the Adsense SEO section dropped even harder, especially when you don't count the spammers who drop a link in the hope they will rank lol.

          Can't say they moved on to other forums btw, DP is more dead then ever, TP was never really big and also seems to die a slow death lately. No idea about Bl@ckhatworld and WFire is also not a place where I'm active.

          Actually funny considering their are more computer users each year. Shows what a huge influence Google has with their updates but not that we didn't know that yet.

          Not long before it's back at the level in 2007 when it started.

          Also funny to see I popped in at it's peak.

          Blackhatworld is pretty steady btw, guess it's more hobby specific
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            The WF isn't losing popularity - it's a victim of it's own success.

            It's a highly profitable marketplace - and the commercialization of the WSO section in particular and the addition of the outside WSO affiliate programs added to that commercial value.

            Instead of joining for advice/help/support - people are told to join to make money HERE on the forum. The main forum used to contain thread after thread of practical business advice - now it's a newbie forum. Not a surprising change - and one we could see coming years ago.

            The popularity remains - but it's a different demographic perhaps.

            Some of us old timers have retired down here to the basement for the most part.
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            • Profile picture of the author nik0
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              The WF isn't losing popularity - it's a victim of it's own success.

              It's a highly profitable marketplace - and the commercialization of the WSO section in particular and the addition of the outside WSO affiliate programs added to that commercial value.

              Instead of joining for advice/help/support - people are told to join to make money HERE on the forum. The main forum used to contain thread after thread of practical business advice - now it's a newbie forum. Not a surprising change - and one we could see coming years ago.

              The popularity remains - but it's a different demographic perhaps.

              Some of us old timers have retired down here to the basement for the most part.
              Although financially successful for the owners and a lot of members as well of course it's imo not something to be proud off.

              Cause everyone gets pushed to sell stuff on this forum it results in a lot of re-hashed stuff that you can find for free in year old threads.

              I had a time that I bought WSO after WSO, that was about 1.5-2 years ago, I never ran into anything that was really as great as an idea as how it was announced, mostly things that I already knew (ok me to blame for that of course) or methods that were soon about to die or already dead, or theories that sounded nice but that would never work out well.

              Still I owe a lot of my success (selling services) to this forum but when I see what the marketplace has become and actually already was when I joined here I would never send a friend over here to check some of the stuff out.

              Sure there are exceptions but they are incredibly hard to find in the jungle.
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              • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                Originally Posted by nik0 View Post

                Although financially successful for the owners and a lot of members as well of course it's imo not something to be proud off.

                Cause everyone gets pushed to sell stuff on this forum it results in a lot of re-hashed stuff that you can find for free in year old threads.

                I had a time that I bought WSO after WSO, that was about 1.5-2 years ago, I never ran into anything that was really as great as an idea as how it was announced, mostly things that I already knew (ok me to blame for that of course) or methods that were soon about to die or already dead, or theories that sounded nice but that would never work out well.

                Still I owe a lot of my success (selling services) to this forum but when I see what the marketplace has become and actually already was when I joined here I would never send a friend over here to check some of the stuff out.

                Sure there are exceptions but they are incredibly hard to find in the jungle.
                Really? I think your view is a bit skewed. I have never opened a WSO nor do I feel compelled to, let alone forced to.

                I haven't felt forced or compelled to purchase many either. As a matter of fact, the number that I have purchased falls short of the total number of fingers I have one one hand, not including the thumb.

                But I must say the quality of those couple were astounding and worth every dollar, if not more. One in particular, much more.

                We must be investigating different parts of the elephant.

                Terra
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                • Profile picture of the author nik0
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                  Really? I think your view is a bit skewed. I have never opened a WSO nor do I feel compelled to, let alone forced to.

                  I haven't felt forced or compelled to purchase many either. As a matter of fact, the number that I have purchased falls short of the total number of fingers I have one one hand, not including the thumb.

                  But I must say the quality of those couple were astounding and worth every dollar, if not more. One in particular, much more.

                  We must be investigating different parts of the elephant.

                  Terra
                  I'm good at exaggerating

                  What i mean to say is that there are tons of WSO's out there that teach you how to start a WSO.

                  I was looking for the get rich quick scheme back then, you might've looked for totally different things.

                  Once I got out of that hype I only purchased things that I needed, like a product comparison script for Amazon, I was definitely not disappointed with that, or some complete Amazon sites build for me, which were pretty solid.
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        • Profile picture of the author ronrule
          Originally Posted by scottmacair View Post

          I think you might find this interesting:Google Trends
          A long time ago, back in the 90's when I was working a full time job with a big company, I used my programming skills and wrote a variety of scripts and calculators to make my job easier. Stuff that would have taken an hour or more to do by hand was accomplished instantly. I was so proud of myself that I showed my manager what I had done, thinking I'd be next in line for some big promotion. You know what happened instead? Within 3 months I was "downsized" ...

          I automated myself out of a job. They didn't need me anymore.

          I bring up this story to share a different perspective - that maybe the reason your chart shows a downward trend isn't because people are "giving up" ... maybe it's because they found a winner. That one missing piece of the puzzle that made everything else make sense, and now instead of sitting around here talking about it, they're out there doing it.
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  • Profile picture of the author craigslist
    There is way to much junk here,
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
      Originally Posted by craigslist View Post

      There is way to much junk here,
      I just want to point out that this comment was made with someone with
      the username "craigslist"
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  • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
    The same questions get asked because new people keep falling into the forum.

    They're lazy, and so instead of Searching for the answer, they ask.

    "How do I make a million dollars with no skill, nothing to start out with and no work?"

    And the newbies who just got here a few days before answer them.

    I spend very little time in the main forum, and most of it in the Offline section.
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  • Profile picture of the author twister85
    What? Warriorforum getting unpopular? Or we're out of Ideas?

    The only problem I can see here is people repeating things but aren't trying to create something new.
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  • Profile picture of the author jinx1221
    Because it's always the same replies, same gripes and same debates which turn into flame wars and high school popularity contests. I would assume that if anybody has ideas that are working they are keeping it to themselves.. I would, who wants thousands of people doing what works for you and mess up the whole thing? One sure way to kill it is to mention it here. The walls have ears.

    I shall end this response with a piece of golden advice:

    Content Is King!!! Long Live Guest Posts!!!!
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    • Profile picture of the author travlinguy
      Originally Posted by jinx1221 View Post

      Because it's always the same replies, same gripes and same debates which turn into flame wars and high school popularity contests. I would assume that if anybody has ideas that are working they are keeping it to themselves.. I would, who wants thousands of people doing what works for you and mess up the whole thing? One sure way to kill it is to mention it here. The walls have ears.

      I shall end this response with a piece of golden advice:

      Content Is King!!! Long Live Guest Posts!!!!
      "...thousands of people doing what works..." Are you serious? That means people would have to first recognize what actually works. Then they'd need to abandon the SEO/Google fantasy, the autopilot, Ninja cash cow fallacy, the spun article/blog spamming backlink BS and get real. Ain't gonna happen anytime soon. As long as people are selling easy fixes there will be people lined up to buy 'em.

      Warrior Forum has changed. It was once primarily a major forum with a marketplace. Now it's a major marketplace with a forum.
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        I don't have an answer to that because my focus here is different from what it
        was when I first came to the forum. Back then I was running a successful
        business and had knowledge to share so I did. Today, because of the Google
        changes and the demise of article directories, my business has literally vanished
        so I starting all over getting into the royalty free music biz. My tactics are a
        complete 180 from what they were. But more importantly. I'm letting my partner
        handle the marketing end because I honestly don't have a clue in that area
        anymore. I concentrate on the music end of it.

        I guess what I'm trying to say is that since my situation has changed, my
        reasons for being here have changed (mostly social now) and thus I don't
        participate in the main forum anymore because I (1) have nothing to contribute
        and (2) don't need to learn how to market my new business because I'm letting
        my partner who does know about SEO and all that great stuff take care of all
        that.

        More to the point, I am sure a lot of other marketers from back then are also
        in the same boat and have moved on. The forum demographic, as a result,
        has probably changed quite a bit. And as Kay said, this has become the place
        to come to in order to run a WSO and make money. A victim of its own
        success.

        I have no idea what the future holds for this place nor am I concerned with
        it. I do have some friends here who I enjoy chatting with. But if they day
        comes when they leave and all that's left is, well, whatever, I'll probably
        move on to.

        Things change. My old neighborhood, where I used to live, all the stores I
        remember are gone.

        As hard as it is to conceive, there may come a day when the Warrior Forum
        is gone. I certainly would not bet my life that it will survive eternally. Very
        few things do. But while it's here I'll enjoy the folks who have made this part
        of the forum a pleasant hangout.
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        • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
          Let's put it this way...

          MissTerraTalksAlot ventures into the main forum, reads countless posts and has nothing to say.

          The forum certainly has changed quite a bit. But I'm going nowhere as long as the lounge is open. This is where the best conversations take place and where there is always something to talk about among friends.

          Terra
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        • Profile picture of the author peter_act
          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          I don't have an answer to that because my focus here is different from what it was when I first came to the forum.
          Hi Steven - I can remember when you first came to the forum, you commented on anything and everything. I for one miss that. Even back then, I only used to read posts by people who were worth reading, like you, Dennis and John Durham. I mainly come to the off-topic section now to see if I can see anything that piques my interest.

          I guess what I'm trying to say is that since my situation has changed, my
          reasons for being here have changed (mostly social now) and thus I don't participate in the main forum anymore More to the point, I am sure a lot of other marketers from back then are also in the same boat and have moved on.
          My position exactly. I just dabble in offline and mobile marketing now, will do the odd web design that comes my way by word of mouth, but don't seriously chase any new business.

          On another tack, I listened to your video of "Puppet on a string" you posted in another thread. Before actually listening to it, I thought it was a remake of a Sandie Shaw hit in the UK in the 60's with the same title (did you know that song? - could be material for your music trivia book!) . Yours was a good effort, but sounds a bit dated in today's music era of no talents with sunglasses and baseball caps back to front, or nude poppets who think how they look is more important than what they sing.

          In your own words, "I think I could have written for the 60s and possibly well enough to get a song cut." I think your song would have fitted very well in the 60s, where tunes and lyrics were simple and memorable. Perhaps it needs a stronger and more distinctive vocal (no offence!). Reminded me of a very young George Harrison. Listen to "Sunny afternoon" by the Kinks to see what I mean - I was trying to think of the melody your first line reminded me of - that was the song.

          Did you see the lyrics for a country song I wrote for Miss Terra in that same thread? (you were supposed to write the music!)

          Anyway, I'll look forward to your Kindle book. I'm older than you, but I think I'd be pretty good on 60s trivia from the UK - I was there at the time (I think!). And hope your royalty free music site gets off the ground.

          Anyway, back on track. I think the forum is now dominated by WSO's and newbies trying to get a foothold in internet marketing. They don't realise the horse has bolted from that stable.

          Virtually the only sections I read are this one and the offline marketing one, and even there I only read posts from a few people, like Don Alm, Martin Buckley, Claude Whitacre and Ewen Mack. Offline is dominated by "Just do this and business owners will ring YOU" type solutions.

          Offline will only work if you read the streets and talk to business owners face to face - if you can't do that, then go flip hamburgers. Read every post from the above gentlemen, implement what they say, and you'll succeed in offline marketing.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Maschke
    I come down to this section to fight and argue with some of the brightest minds I've ever met. Their excellent thinking skills will, if you let them, sharpen your mind to a razor's edge.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
    It definitely used to be a lot different. With many of the Internet Marketing Gurus (John Reese etc.) regularly posting.

    Like someone mentioned, I don't think it has lost any popularity, just a different focus.
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  • Profile picture of the author Anne0521
    maybe because of its popularity it attract spams and scams. Maybe older members are tired of answering the same questions asked by new members.
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  • Profile picture of the author garyv
    The internet over all has changed. It used to be that a vast majority of traffic came from google. You could run an entire business with either SEO or a good adwords campaign. Now the entry way to the internet is no longer google. People jump on to facebook, or right into an iphone or android app, or watch youtube videos, or a million other things.

    The ways you can find online traffic and money now are infinite, but usually much more unstable. So a post that may have provided great value last week, may be irrelevant this week. That makes it harder and harder to find the gold-nugget posts.
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  • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
    The Google Trends link is interesting, but also dovetails with efforts to thwart very large-scale spam account creation so... the graph doesn't tell the whole story.

    In my view, there's been one significant shift from say back in the Aught Years...

    Veteran marketers and experts, accustomed to being "recognized" and valued, now have to compete for the currency of attention alongside everyone else -- because a great many of the folks active in the forum just don't know who you are or the kind of experience you're bringing to the table with you. You're just another poster to them.

    Factor in a growing, gnawing cynicism from those that stoke and feed off it and...

    <SCREECHING BRAKES>

    Some get pissy and leave in a huff about it, declaring the place "dead".

    Some just don't bother to participate like they once would.

    Others notice the shift and respond accordingly if they want to engage this new audience.

    I'm admittedly a bit of a #2 on this, not that I believe I'm particularly well-known outside of certain circles.

    I think TravelinGuy nailed it re: major forum with a marketplace > major marketplace with a forum.

    To me, there's nothing inherently "wrong" with either, just a different dynamic.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    Another dynamic I didn't see mentioned is the tendency of many newish members to either smart off to the veterans or attack them (verbally) who try to help them. Seems like (to me) that many of them are more concerned with being perceived as being right or being perceived as being knowledgeable than they are with learning something new. Too many of them let their ego get in the way of their progress.

    A little tact goes a long ways in a medium like this. A lack of tact does a lot of damage, much of it unseen and unrealized by the person who lacks it.

    So, rather than wasting their time on people that don't appreciate it, they quit participating as much. If you get bit every time you try to give a dog a biscuit, sooner or later you quit handing out those biscuits.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      Another dynamic I didn't see mentioned is the tendency of many newish members to either smart off to the veterans or attack them (verbally) who try to help them. Seems like (to me) that many of them are more concerned with being perceived as being right or being perceived as being knowledgeable than they are with learning something new. Too many of them let their ego get in the way of their progress.

      A little tact goes a long ways in a medium like this. A lack of tact does a lot of damage, much of it unseen and unrealized by the person who lacks it.

      So, rather than wasting their time on people that don't appreciate it, they quit participating as much. If you get bit every time you try to give a dog a biscuit, sooner or later you quit handing out those biscuits.
      You know, this is so funny. With all the success that I've had in the last 10
      years, I couldn't help somebody market their way out of a paper bag I'm so
      clueless with all the changes that have taken place. I would actually be so
      grateful for any info coming my way that could possibly help me.

      I guess maybe you have to reach a point where you can actually appreciate
      the help that comes your way. A lot of newbies aren't there at the beginning
      because they haven't suffered long enough or haven't had success followed
      by terrible failure.

      I know this much. When I finally get my royalty free music site launched, I
      will kiss the feet of anybody who can help me make it a success.

      The ups and downs of this business have made me very humble in my old
      age.
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    • Profile picture of the author ViViD
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      Another dynamic I didn't see mentioned is the tendency of many newish members to either smart off to the veterans or attack them (verbally) who try to help them. Seems like (to me) that many of them are more concerned with being perceived as being right or being perceived as being knowledgeable than they are with learning something new. Too many of them let their ego get in the way of their progress.

      A little tact goes a long ways in a medium like this. A lack of tact does a lot of damage, much of it unseen and unrealized by the person who lacks it.

      So, rather than wasting their time on people that don't appreciate it, they quit participating as much. If you get bit every time you try to give a dog a biscuit, sooner or later you quit handing out those biscuits.
      Excellent points. I am experiencing a little of this myself since joining.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    Steve - send me a PM when you have that up and running. It wouldn't be a great fit with my audience, but there may be some overlap that may benefit some of them (and hence, you also).
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      Steve - send me a PM when you have that up and running. It wouldn't be a great fit with my audience, but there may be some overlap that may benefit some of them (and hence, you also).
      Thank you Dennis. I greatly appreciate this. Essentially anybody interested in
      doing videos is a prospect. That can cover a lot of niches.
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  • Profile picture of the author DubDubDubDot
    Each of the three major forums are losing popularity. It goes back to the fact that the internet is changing and the youths who will fill the voids and emerging markets don't find the old guard forums too appealing.
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  • Profile picture of the author Giftys
    Another important point has not been mentioned. At least some people are turned off by forum bullies. You know the ones. They can't just comment, they take great pride in intimidating others. They'll run over your opinion like a freight train without any sense of tact or professionalism and insult you in the process. Once members see that they can get away with it, other similar types join in and they more or less take over the forum.

    You then have the enablers. They're the ones that are also getting a lot out of the forum either through business or attention. They might not be the offenders but they might as well be because they have no integrity or they'd stand up to the bullies. Instead, they feed off of them.

    I've been a member of a lot of forums through the years. Unless you put a stop to it, a lot of people just leave. Will it bring the forum down? No, but it does affect what type of people stay here. But maybe that doesn't matter to the forum owners. Afterall, anyone can let a fool run their mouth and bully everyone else. It's a win for them business-wise because that fool is racking up thousands of pages of content for them. Unfortunately, for many members, that comes at a price. They can't post without being harassed and intimidated. They finally get fed up and leave.

    So, maybe a lot of people are leaving because this forum lacks integrity and refuses to insist on common decency for its core. - Just a thought.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      I've been following this thread and nodding my head at some points and shaking it at others. Just waiting for someone to bring up the key point. The closest anyone got is to flip it.
      So, maybe a lot of people are leaving because this forum lacks integrity and refuses to insist on common decency for its core. - Just a thought.
      You and I seem to have very different definitions of the word "forum" in this context.

      As an example, I consider this type of vague and unfocused accusation to be a form of bullying. A specific form, without offering anything of substance to back up the position. You clearly see it another way, and, from a certain perspective, it can be entirely reasonable.

      It doesn't help, though, regardless of your intent. If you see actual bullying, report it, using the little red triangle to the lower left of the post. Just be aware that the mods are not going to step in unless it crosses the lines. We don't like to play the role of babysitter to grown adults.

      When I think of "the forum," I think of the entire assemblage. All the members who contribute. Not the moderators, or the old guard. Everyone.

      The days when a single person, or even a small group, could direct the discussions are long gone. The mods can make it clear that certain levels of vulgarity and rudeness will not be accepted, and we can nuke racists and people who post other extreme forms of commentary, but the overall tone of the forum is dictated by the members.

      The members who take some responsibility for the way things are discussed are the ones who keep the value in the place. The folks who complain and do nothing about their concerns just add to the problems.

      The phrase "members are moderators" means a whole lot more than just clicking that little red triangle and reporting spam. It means taking responsibility for your role in the community.


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      • Profile picture of the author Giftys
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        As an example, I consider this type of vague and unfocused accusation to be a form of bullying.
        Really? Wow! I suppose I could say that since you replied to my post, I consider it an act of hostility. That makes about as much sense.

        The phrase "members are moderators" means a whole lot more than just clicking that little red triangle and reporting spam. It means taking responsibility for your role in the community.
        That's why I posted.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Giftys,

    The point: You can complain about a problem in vague terms, or you can do something about it. Conflating the two is a common mistake.

    They are not the same thing at all.


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    • Profile picture of the author Giftys
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Giftys,

      The point: You can complain about a problem in vague terms, or you can do something about it. Conflating the two is a common mistake.
      In your mind. I don't own the forum nor do I moderate it. Therefore, the only vehicle I have is a tiny voice. Call that voice vague if you will but I've clearly defined an issue in this forum and defining it is, in fact, doing something about it.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        I've clearly defined an issue in this forum
        Perhaps you would be kind enough to clarify it? I seem to have missed that part.
        and defining it is, in fact, doing something about it.
        Even assuming you actually defined it clearly, which I do not at this point see as having been established, that is not "doing something about it."

        That statement is semantically equal to a witness to a mugging saying, "He's robbing that guy," and claiming he's done something about the mugging. Even if you accept the statement as valid, it is still a useless act by itself.

        Some problems with your "definition" of the problem you perceive:

        The owner (singular, not plural) has very little to do with the day to day operation of the forum.

        You fail to define what constitutes "the forum" which you claim is lacking in integrity.

        You also fail to connect integrity in a tangible way with the subjective notion of "common decency," or explain what standard of "common decency" should be applied to assess your judgement.

        You talk about bullying, but you give no definition or example by which one can determine what level of disagreement, rhetoric, or "force" is sufficient to meet your standard for the application of that term.

        For every subjective aspect of your comments there are hundreds of members who would apply a different, and to them equally accurate, standard.

        We've had people go into rages about how someone is bullying them by saying, "That idea seems silly to me." Would you call that bullying? If so, why? If not, why not?


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        • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          I've been following this thread and nodding my head at some points and shaking it at others. Just waiting for someone to bring up the key point.
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          We've had people go into rages about how someone is bullying them

          These broad accusations of bullying have been around before.
          While I certainly understand what people are saying and agree
          with the sentiment to a degree, Paul is absolutely correct on
          this issue. The vague (non direct, non specific) accusations
          are just not helpful.

          I appreciate your mission to civilize the forum a bit. And I
          will take it as an important reminder, because over the last
          couple of years I've been in a bad mood and answered things
          a bit harshly as well.

          But the reality is that there are jerks in every walk of life,
          including this forum, and learning to deal with them is a part
          of "success". After all, this is the Warrior Forum, and anywhere
          in sales & marketing we're going to need some thick skin!

          Here is a little flowchart I have developed for dealing with
          situations where someone is being a bully or a jerk:

          1. Ask myself, "Is it me? Am I the one in the wrong here?"
          More often than I would like to admit, the answer is yes.
          I've found that being an adult and owning up to it with an
          apology usually dissolves the negativity immediately.

          (Also, lately I've found myself quickly deleting my responses
          and logging out if I find myself being an ass, haha)


          2. If it's not me, then is the hostility directed at me? If so,
          then I get over it.





          3. If it's not me, and the hostility is directed at someone else,
          can we just ignore the jerk and offer advice and encouragement?
          Or will some clarification help resolve the conflict?

          "Hmm, that's not the way that I understood it when I read that?
          Correct me if I'm wrong of course, but I thought he/she was trying to say..."
          4. Another point is not to assume that people are not "standing up to bullies"
          just because it isn't done publicly. I have both sent and received PMs
          when there was a bit of douchebaggery going on. And of course I have
          sent encouraging PMs to people who probably needed them after they
          were having a frustrating experience that they shouldn't have had here.
          Handling things quietly often goes a very long way!

          5. Finally, if someone is clearly crossing a line, then we should most
          certainly report them. Defining what that line is or should be, however,
          is harder than you might think at first. Some people are a bit rougher
          around the edges than others, and both give and take more. In those
          rare cases where someone's behavior gets out of hand, they are dealt
          with in a fair manner.


          ...And as a footnote, it's really kind of good that so much freedom
          is allowed in this forum, for a lot of reasons, but also specifically
          in relation to the idea of "forum bullying":

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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            I was going to stay out of the "bullying" discussion but having been on both
            ends of it and being about as unbiased as I could be at this stage of my life,
            I'm going to throw in my 2 cents. Take it for what it's worth to you.

            If I've learned anything in life it's that there are two sides to every argument.

            When I first got here, having finally had a decent taste of success after about
            3 years of marketing online (started in 2003) I thought I was some kind of big
            shot because I was making more money than I'd ever made at a job. So I was
            determined to share my "genius" with this forum come hell or high water.

            Well, a few of the "really smart marketers" tried to put me in my place in a not
            so nice way because they saw some holes in my "business plan" as much as it
            was one. I took this personally and accused them of "bullying" and "picking" on
            me. As Les pointed out in another thread here, always the victim.

            Long story short, just recently my business plan went down the crapper and
            pretty much everything that the "bullies" pointed out about it was correct.
            It WAS a house of cards just ready to come tumbling down.

            In essence, they were trying to protect other members from falling into the
            trap that I had fallen into. Sure, I had a lot of success for about 8 years. But
            when Google changed the rules suddenly, not building my own virtual real
            estate and instead relying on 3rd party sites, I had no business.

            Could these members been a little nicer about how they "ridiculed" me? Maybe.
            But then maybe the message wouldn't have gotten through to the other
            members.

            In hindsight, everybody who pretty much ripped me to shreds here was right
            on the money.

            If it's any consolation to all these people who clearly made it no secret that
            they detested my very presence, I'm now broke and pretty much fighting for
            survival, yet again. Except this time I learned from my mistakes. I'm building
            a real site and a real business. It may take some time to establish itself as one
            of the main sites in this area (royalty free music) but it'll get there. I am fully
            committed to it and will do it right this time. No relying on EZA or YouTube or
            any one site.

            The point is this. Before you look at somebody and say they're bullying or
            whatever, you might want to take a look at what's actually going on.

            In the cases of newbies asking questions, a lot of times these people are
            asking things like "How can I make a lot of money in 24 hours?" It's these
            constant unrealistic expectations that sets members off because they're
            sick and tired of all these people looking for the quick score and not wanting
            to put the time into actually building a business. I myself have little patience
            or tolerance for these folks. I started working on my new business on 9/4. It
            is now 10/23. I've written and recorded 355 tracks during that time (an
            average of over 7 a day) and have yet to make a dime. I understand that
            things take time. I'm not looking for a quick score. So when members come
            here asking how they can make gobs of money in a day, I see red.

            Can we handle it better than we do? Maybe. But after a while, being human,
            you reach a point where you've had enough and just want to strangle some
            of these people. And certainly when somebody comes here with one of their
            shady or unstable business plans we want to put them in their place, just like
            what was done to me 7 years ago.

            Why? Because ultimately we don't want to see the innocent bystanders get
            caught in the whirlwind. Some people will hear something, think it sounds good
            because they have no experience, and dive right in, not realizing that it is
            indeed a house of cards or worse, a scam.

            This past year has been very humbling to me. If anyone were to come to me
            for business advice right now I'd honestly tell them that I'm the last person
            they should come to. But I would tell them to build a real business. If they
            asked me what that is I would simply point them to some sites that are real
            businesses.

            Having said all that, human nature being what it is, it's not going to change.
            The anonymity of the Internet makes it very easy for many people to just
            be plain old nasty simply because there are no repercussions. You say
            something mean to somebody, what are they gonna do?

            For this reason I try to stay out of any conversations where I'm likely to have
            my head handed to me, though telling about how sad I was that I had to
            sell my record collection was one topic I never thought would ever provoke
            some of the responses that I got, which further proves my point. Some people
            just enjoy ragging on you. You can develop a thick skin and ignore it (something
            I have yet to be able to do) or you can let yourself get sucked into a knock
            down drag out.

            Finally, and this is something I can't believe nobody has pointed out. It's been
            said that the forum is losing popularity at least in part because of the bullies.
            But isn't it quite possible that (1) the forum actually hasn't lost popularity or
            (2) if it has, it's because of some completely different reason like, oh, I don't
            know. Maybe things just change?

            The Garden State Bowling alley was the biggest bowling alley in the state
            of NJ. It was almost constantly packed.

            Today, it's gone.

            We don't live in a static world. Things change. That's why my business
            tanked. Article directories (which I put all my eggs in) got whacked by
            Google and my house of cards came tumbling down.

            Some people in my situation would blame Google for being mean to article
            directories.

            I blame myself for being an idiot.

            Like I said, two sides to every argument.
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            • Profile picture of the author Giftys
              Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post


              In hindsight, everybody who pretty much ripped me to shreds here was right
              on the money.
              Steven, I'm sorry that your takeaway was that, because you felt they were right about the business stuff, they had a right to bully you. That's like if a wife were slapped and beat up because her husband disagreed with her about how she was paying the bills and later she learned that her husband was right so she determined that she must have deserved to be beat up since she was paying the bills wrong. Don't you see, it has nothing to do with the business or the seo side of things. Being a bully is being a bully. There are some members in here that are COMEPLETE A-HOLES!!! and they're being rewarded for it because they've convinced everyone that, because they have a lot of knowledge and are often right (let's assume), than they have a right to treat people that way. That is anything but the truth. Bullying is not acceptable. Period. End of story.
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          • Profile picture of the author Giftys
            Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

            These broad accusations of bullying have been around before.
            While I certainly understand what people are saying and agree
            with the sentiment to a degree, Paul is absolutely correct on
            this issue. The vague (non direct, non specific) accusations
            are just not helpful.
            Mike, I don't have time to go through the forum and pull out every example of when someones been a complete a**hole. Do your own search. They're not hard to find.

            I appreciate your mission to civilize the forum a bit. And I
            will take it as an important reminder, because over the last
            couple of years I've been in a bad mood and answered things
            a bit harshly as well.
            Thanks and that was the point I was trying to make. If we start speaking up and saying, ENOUGH!, this place will be a much more pleasant place to hang out where "everyone's" opinion would be at the least respected, even if not agreed on.

            But the reality is that there are jerks in every walk of life,
            including this forum, and learning to deal with them is a part
            of "success".
            Learning to stand up to them is a part of success. Learning to deal with them is admitting to failure and rewarding them for their bad behavior.

            After all, this is the Warrior Forum, and anywhere
            in sales & marketing we're going to need some thick skin!
            Is that what you tell a young girl that's been raped? "Sorry, you need to quit whining and learn to have thick skin." Sorry but that doesn't work in business either. Having someone disagree with you helps you develop thick skin. Enabling a bully does not. It is cowardly.
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        • Profile picture of the author Giftys
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          Perhaps you would be kind enough to clarify it? I seem to have missed that part.Even assuming you actually defined it clearly, which I do not at this point see as having been established, that is not "doing something about it."

          That statement is semantically equal to a witness to a mugging saying, "He's robbing that guy," and claiming he's done something about the mugging. Even if you accept the statement as valid, it is still a useless act by itself.

          Some problems with your "definition" of the problem you perceive:

          The owner (singular, not plural) has very little to do with the day to day operation of the forum.

          You fail to define what constitutes "the forum" which you claim is lacking in integrity.

          You also fail to connect integrity in a tangible way with the subjective notion of "common decency," or explain what standard of "common decency" should be applied to assess your judgement.

          You talk about bullying, but you give no definition or example by which one can determine what level of disagreement, rhetoric, or "force" is sufficient to meet your standard for the application of that term.

          For every subjective aspect of your comments there are hundreds of members who would apply a different, and to them equally accurate, standard.

          We've had people go into rages about how someone is bullying them by saying, "That idea seems silly to me." Would you call that bullying? If so, why? If not, why not?


          Paul
          Paul, I'm not responsible for helping you understand what a bully is. Look up the definition and you've got your answer. Then apply it to the forum wherever it fits. It's really that simple.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
            Originally Posted by Giftys View Post

            Paul, I'm not responsible for helping you understand what a bully is. Look up the definition and you've got your answer. Then apply it to the forum wherever it fits. It's really that simple.
            Isn't that a bit harsh?

            Originally Posted by Giftys View Post

            Mike, I don't have time to go through the forum and pull out every example of when someones been a complete a**hole. Do your own search. They're not hard to find.
            Yes there's at least one on this thread. Pot meet kettle.

            Learning to stand up to them is a part of success. Learning to deal with them is admitting to failure and rewarding them for their bad behavior.
            Who is them? You are being the "bully" now with your attitude.

            Is that what you tell a young girl that's been raped? "Sorry, you need to quit whining and learn to have thick skin." Sorry but that doesn't work in business either. Having someone disagree with you helps you develop thick skin. Enabling a bully does not. It is cowardly.
            It's also idiocy (excuse the jerk coming out) to equate these spats on this forum to rape.

            Mark
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Is that what you tell a young girl that's been raped?
              You are equating an exchange of words about impersonal issues among complete strangers on an Internet forum to RAPE?

              There is no civil way to describe my response to that. Disgust doesn't even come close.


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              • Profile picture of the author Giftys
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                You are equating an exchange of words about impersonal issues among complete strangers on an Internet forum to RAPE?
                No, I'm comparing bullies to rape. It was just used to make a point just like I used spouse abuse to make a point. The ones that beat their spouses are bullies. This is no great revelation. Look it up.
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            • Profile picture of the author Giftys
              Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

              Isn't that a bit harsh?
              Not unless you identify with it.
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              • Profile picture of the author haya
                I miss Jay boyer, Mathew olsen, Craig mako, Chris Munch, Foid Toiled and John Rhodes.

                Their products were the bomb.

                I loved them!

                Very genuine, supportive with products of great quality. I don't see them here anymore. It's sad.

                Feels like I was left out, seeing that I am new here in the forum.

                But let's not overlook the fact that the Warrior Forum is by far one of the best Internet Marketing Forums out there!

                Don't let the absence of legends fool you, here is where legends are born.
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Paul, I'm not responsible for helping you understand what a bully is. Look up the definition and you've got your answer. Then apply it to the forum wherever it fits.
            Fascinating. You failed to actually respond to almost any of the points made, and the one you did attempt to answer is right back to the original vague and unproductive approach.

            I pointed out the subjective nature of the word as it applies to a forum. Your comment suggests you would be satisified with whatever standard I chose to use, which is at odds with your original complaint.

            This is a fairly common debating tactic. Put forth an allegation, but couch it in sufficiently nebulous terms that you can't be pinned down, because you haven't actually said anything of substance.
            It's really that simple.
            Is it?

            How many different definitions and standards do you suppose there are for just this one issue among the tens of thousands of active members in this forum? How restrictive do you feel the mods should be? Do we limit things to words a sensitive 3rd grader wouldn't be offended by? Or do we go with a level of commentary more apt for a biker crowd? Where is the line drawn?

            This is hardly a "simple" choice, by most definitions of the word. Well, it isn't if you're the one who actually has to make that decision. But hey... it's easy for folks who don't have to think in terms of specific impacts arising from nearly every action.


            Paul
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            • Profile picture of the author Giftys
              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

              Fascinating. You failed to actually respond to almost any of the points made, and the one you did attempt to answer is right back to the original vague and unproductive approach.

              I pointed out the subjective nature of the word as it applies to a forum. Your comment suggests you would be satisified with whatever standard I chose to use, which is at odds with your original complaint.

              This is a fairly common debating tactic. Put forth an allegation, but couch it in sufficiently nebulous terms that you can't be pinned down, because you haven't actually said anything of substance.Is it?

              How many different definitions and standards do you suppose there are for just this one issue among the tens of thousands of active members in this forum? How restrictive do you feel the mods should be? Do we limit things to words a sensitive 3rd grader wouldn't be offended by? Or do we go with a level of commentary more apt for a biker crowd? Where is the line drawn?

              This is hardly a "simple" choice, by most definitions of the word. Well, it isn't if you're the one who actually has to make that decision. But hey... it's easy for folks who don't have to think in terms of specific impacts arising from nearly every action.


              Paul
              Do I really have to do your research for you Paul? Look up the word bullying. Understand it's definition and then simply apply it to the forum in the same manner you'd apply it to the school your son goes to so that you can protect him from the school bullies. This isn't rocket science. It's very simply stuff.
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              • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                The new "signature" is ridiculous and seems based on #3 - which means YOUR signature may have violated the sig rules....but of course that would be someone else's fault in your world.
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                Saving one dog will not save the world....but will forever change the world for one dog.
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                • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                  Kay,
                  The new "signature" is ridiculous and seems based on #3 - which means YOUR signature may have violated the sig rules....but of course that would be someone else's fault in your world.
                  I haven't noticed anything in his signature that violated any rules. If someone actually did complain to the mods about that one, or the previous version, the report would almost certainly be deleted without any action taken.


                  Paul
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                  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                    No, I'm comparing bullies to rape.
                    Yeah. I got that. You're comparing strictly verbal "bullying" by complete strangers on an Internet forum to rape. That is precisely what I find so objectionable.

                    You appear to be lacking a sense of context or proportion.


                    Paul
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                    • Profile picture of the author Giftys
                      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                      Yeah. I got that. You're comparing strictly verbal "bullying" by complete strangers on an Internet forum to rape. That is precisely what I find so objectionable.

                      You appear to be lacking a sense of context or proportion.

                      Not at all. Here's what I wrote before. You may not have read it:

                      "Steven, I'm sorry that your takeaway was that, because you felt they were right about the business stuff, they had a right to bully you. That's like if a wife were slapped and beat up because her husband disagreed with her about how she was paying the bills and later she learned that her husband was right so she determined that she must have deserved to be beat up since she was paying the bills wrong. Don't you see, it has nothing to do with the business or the seo side of things. Being a bully is being a bully. There are some members in here that are COMEPLETE A-HOLES!!! and they're being rewarded for it because they've convinced everyone that, because they have a lot of knowledge and are often right (let's assume), than they have a right to treat people that way. That is anything but the truth. Bullying is not acceptable. Period. End of story."
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                      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                        Originally Posted by Giftys View Post

                        Not at all. Here's what I wrote before. You may not have read it:

                        "Steven, I'm sorry that your takeaway was that, because you felt they were right about the business stuff, they had a right to bully you. That's like if a wife were slapped and beat up because her husband disagreed with her about how she was paying the bills and later she learned that her husband was right so she determined that she must have deserved to be beat up since she was paying the bills wrong. Don't you see, it has nothing to do with the business or the seo side of things. Being a bully is being a bully. There are some members in here that are COMEPLETE A-HOLES!!! and they're being rewarded for it because they've convinced everyone that, because they have a lot of knowledge and are often right (let's assume), than they have a right to treat people that way. That is anything but the truth. Bullying is not acceptable. Period. End of story."
                        Well then obviously you and I have two different versions of bullying which I
                        think is part of Paul's point. What's bullying to one person may be perfectly
                        acceptable behavior to another.

                        If I come to a forum and ask "How do you (fill in the blank)" and somebody
                        replies with "Why don't you just look it up?" that's just being rude but it's
                        certainly not being a bully.

                        If they respond with "Why do you want to do that? People that do that are
                        idiots." That's being rude AND a bully.

                        To me.

                        And that's the point. To somebody else, especially if the truth is that anybody
                        who does (fill in the blank) IS an idiot, maybe being called an idiot is exactly
                        what they needed to hear in order to keep from making a terrible mistake.

                        Could it have been handled differently? Depends on the person. Has he asked
                        tons of these "stupid" questions before and yet never takes the advice? At
                        that point, I'd probably not even bother responding. He's a lost cause as far
                        as I'm concerned.

                        My point is, everything is contextual. There is no "this is bullying, period"
                        definition that applies to all adults in an adult community.

                        Now if somebody PMs me and says "Send me $100 or I'll kick the crap out of
                        you" that's just a plain threat and I am sure open to legal action of some kind.
                        You want to call that bullying? I would. But the label in this case doesn't
                        matter. I've been threatened, period.

                        What this all comes down to is a lot of people simply can't take criticism.

                        Classic case. Poster asks a question. Doesn't get the answer he wants. So
                        he attacks the respondents. What he was really looking for is confirmation
                        that HIS views are the RIGHT views. Those people deserve to be put in their
                        place. They are nothing but attention whores.

                        I am so glad that I have gotten away from all that drama. I don't need it
                        anymore. What I need is to is concentrate on my business and make something
                        of it.

                        If you think this forum is full of bullies, here's a great solution to the problem
                        for you.

                        Don't come to the forum.

                        Now, call me a bully.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Giftys
                          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                          Well then obviously you and I have two different versions of bullying which I
                          think is part of Paul's point. What's bullying to one person may be perfectly
                          acceptable behavior to another.

                          If I come to a forum and ask "How do you (fill in the blank)" and somebody
                          replies with "Why don't you just look it up?" that's just being rude but it's
                          certainly not being a bully.

                          If they respond with "Why do you want to do that? People that do that are
                          idiots." That's being rude AND a bully.

                          To me.

                          And that's the point. To somebody else, especially if the truth is that anybody
                          who does (fill in the blank) IS an idiot, maybe being called an idiot is exactly
                          what they needed to hear in order to keep from making a terrible mistake.

                          Could it have been handled differently? Depends on the person. Has he asked
                          tons of these "stupid" questions before and yet never takes the advice? At
                          that point, I'd probably not even bother responding. He's a lost cause as far
                          as I'm concerned.

                          My point is, everything is contextual. There is no "this is bullying, period"
                          definition that applies to all adults in an adult community.

                          Now if somebody PMs me and says "Send me $100 or I'll kick the crap out of
                          you" that's just a plain threat and I am sure open to legal action of some kind.
                          You want to call that bullying? I would. But the label in this case doesn't
                          matter. I've been threatened, period.

                          What this all comes down to is a lot of people simply can't take criticism.

                          Classic case. Poster asks a question. Doesn't get the answer he wants. So
                          he attacks the respondents. What he was really looking for is confirmation
                          that HIS views are the RIGHT views. Those people deserve to be put in their
                          place. They are nothing but attention whores.

                          I am so glad that I have gotten away from all that drama. I don't need it
                          anymore. What I need is to is concentrate on my business and make something
                          of it.

                          If you think this forum is full of bullies, here's a great solution to the problem
                          for you.

                          Don't come to the forum.

                          Now, call me a bully.
                          Steven, I wouldn't call you a bully because you're not one. But I don't think you understand the distinction. Nobody's talking about someone saying "go look it up". I'm talking about obvious patterns of behavior in some where their consistent aggressive behavior is obvious and uncalled for.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                            Paul, with respect, just because we have different approaches doesn't mean my approach is counter-productive.
                            You're focused on a short-term point. Because of that, you have allowed yourself to equate extreme physical violence on an unwilling victim with simple adult conversation one can leave at any point.

                            Distortions like that obscure the real issues, and create hostility where none needs to exist. When you attach those kinds of emotional ladings to a topic, they persist, often long after they've been logically corrected. And they come back to echo in future conversations on the same point.

                            Yes, I believe that is highly counter-productive.
                            No. I consider bullying to be abusive.
                            The use of the word "ironic" suggests you think I was being abusive. I make no bones about the fact that I believe there are times when rudeness is appropriate, but I find it hard to see specifically where your comment fit into this discussion. As Steven pointed out, rudeness and bullying are not the same thing. And I don't believe anything I've said in this discussion even qualifies as rude, by most definitions.


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                          • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
                            What it comes down to is, when a way emerges for regular folks who are not mega-corporations (which, legally, are people too, lol) to make money, the powers-that-be try to get rid of it.

                            For example, here in Canada, a donut chain was donating donuts to charity and getting tax write-offs for the fair market value of donuts. Donuts cost, what, 3 cents to make? So, a company started showing regular folks how to do something similar with software to get tax write-offs. The government pulled the plug on it right quick. Can't let non-big-corporations benefit from it.

                            When ways emerge to make money online, powerful interests try to either loot from them or snuff them out. G00gle has gone the corporate route, catering to monopolies, looting from small business, etc. Youtube is heavy with advertisements.

                            However, G00gle is not the only player on Internet. Other players are strong, new ones are emerging. There are other ways to do things. Be creative. There are reasons why guerilla tactics are so effective even against large powerful forces. Change strategies if you must. One strategy that usually fails is whining.
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              • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                Understand it's definition and then simply apply it to the forum in the same manner you'd apply it to the school your son goes to so that you can protect him from the school bullies.
                Ummm... This forum is not the same as a grade school. There are age requirements (you must be at least 18), and it is a business forum.

                One generally allows a great deal more latitude in strictly verbal exchanges among adults than in violent playground behavior.

                Introducing this kind of contextually inappropriate analogy to a discussion is a sloppy way to bolster a failing argument.


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                • Profile picture of the author Giftys
                  Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                  Ummm... This forum is not the same as a grade school. There are age requirements (you must be at least 18), and it is a business forum.

                  One generally allows a great deal more latitude in strictly verbal exchanges among adults than in violent playground behavior.

                  Introducing this kind of contextually inappropriate analogy to a discussion is a sloppy way to bolster a failing argument.


                  Paul
                  Nice try...
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                  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                    Nice try...
                    Would you care to expand on that? Perhaps a logically presented rebuttal, rather than such vague and content-free attempts at salvaging a failed position?


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                  • Profile picture of the author nik0
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by Giftys View Post

                    Nice try...
                    1: Yes sometimes it is hard when the most retarded questions are asked.

                    But I feel those people deserve it cause they already provide the answer in their own post and are still questioning it.

                    A good example of that:

                    "I launched up SEnukeX, build 1000's of back links and now my site got penalized, any idea what's wrong with my site?"

                    My response: Maybe it's SEnukeX?

                    Reply: Why you think that?

                    Sorry but I can't leave such posts untouched

                    Like Paul said, it's proportional

                    and imo stupidity deserves to be punished.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                      Yes sometimes it is hard when the most retarded questions are asked.
                      And here we have a perfect example of why you are so often at the center of the crapstorms in the SEO section.

                      Questions arising from inexperience are not "retarded." The use of that word in that context can only reasonably be deemed a deliberate choice to be insulting.

                      I can tell you with a high degree of confidence that a lot of people have abandoned the SEO section of this forum because of the ridiculous and abusive dogfights engaged in persistently by some of the members there. It's improved a lot since a couple of people were kind enough to take on the role of moderation in that part of the forum, but I doubt it will recover from the effects of that nastiness any time soon.


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                      • Profile picture of the author Giftys
                        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


                        I can tell you with a high degree of confidence that a lot of people have abandoned the SEO section of this forum because of the ridiculous and abusive dogfights...
                        Abusive? How ironic you should use such a word.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                          Originally Posted by Giftys View Post

                          Abusive? How ironic you should use such a word.
                          [chuckle] Do you consider logical rebuttal to be abusive?
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                          • Profile picture of the author Giftys
                            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                            [chuckle] Do you consider logical rebuttal to be abusive?
                            No. I consider bullying to be abusive.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                        You may not have read it:
                        I read that. I left that post to Steven to reply to if he felt it was needed. That was not the one I quoted, nor was it the one on which I made the assessment of your sense of context.

                        It does, though, reinforce the assessment. You are still equating voluntary verbal exchanges with forcible physical violence against an unwilling victim.

                        It would probably have been helpful if you had been specific. Given that I'm one of the first to jump on people I see abusing newer members, and frequently act to encourage more civility in discussions, we would probably agree much more than you think. We wouldn't likely draw the lines in the same places, but I have to make those decisions with more in mind than my own preferences.

                        Still, we probably agree in large part. The way you've phrased things here makes that point moot, though. You have taken a tack which is actively counter-productive.


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                        • Profile picture of the author Giftys
                          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                          I read that. I left that post to Steven to reply to if he felt it was needed. That was not the one I quoted, nor was it the one on which I made the assessment of your sense of context.

                          It does, though, reinforce the assessment. You are still equating voluntary verbal exchanges with forcible physical violence against an unwilling victim.

                          It would probably have been helpful if you had been specific. Given that I'm one of the first to jump on people I see abusing newer members, and frequently act to encourage more civility in discussions, we would probably agree much more than you think. We wouldn't likely draw the lines in the same places, but I have to make those decisions with more in mind than my own preferences.

                          Still, we probably agree in large part. The way you've phrased things here makes that point moot, though. You have taken a tack which is actively counter-productive.


                          Paul
                          Paul, with respect, just because we have different approaches doesn't mean my approach is counter-productive. If you want specifics, you'll need to be in a thread where I'm specifically calling out the specific bully in that thread. I'm very busy and don't (won't) take the time to go look all this stuff up.

                          Yes, I too think we probably agree more than not on a lot of this.
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                      • Profile picture of the author nik0
                        Banned
                        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                        And here we have a perfect example of why you are so often at the center of the crapstorms in the SEO section.
                        Maybe you should be a little more active there to see what's going on.
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      • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
        Originally Posted by Giftys View Post

        In your mind. I don't own the forum nor do I moderate it. Therefore, the only vehicle I have is a tiny voice. Call that voice vague if you will but I've clearly defined an issue in this forum and defining it is, in fact, doing something about it.
        The phrase I bolded above speaks volumes.

        You see, when you feel a part of a community, you refer to it as "your" community. When you refer to it as your community, it shows that you are vested. When you are vested, you participate in contributing to make it the very best community.

        Therefore, in forum communities, you do your part in moderating. Moderating includes not only reporting posts that break the rules, but by speaking up when you see something wrong going down.

        For instance, if I see someone being exceptionally rude to another poster, I'll post, "Ouch! That was harsh." Most often the poster will acknowledge it, apologize and express their feelings in a less snarky, bullying or aggressive way.

        This is much more productive than going into another thread and complaining that there are mean people posting in the forum. Can you see the difference?

        Anyway, by stating that you don't moderate, you are saying that you aren't vested in our community...Hopefully, that is "yet".

        Terra
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Terra,

          I suspect he meant "moderate" in the more 'official' sense of the word. A bit short-sighted, but logically consistent.

          The type of thing you describe doing will make a much larger difference in the tone of discussions than any amount of deleting posts and banning miscreants. It prompts people to be aware of the impact of their words, and requires them to make choices about how they want to participate. That encourages the people who are constructive by nature, and 'outs' the folks who just want to be jerks.

          It emboldens the other folks who don't find the nastiness acceptable as a normal way of communicating. And it raises the expectations people have for the level of discourse.

          All in all, vastly preferable to looking for someone to blame for things not meeting one's preferences.


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        • Profile picture of the author Giftys
          Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post


          Moderating includes not only reporting posts that break the rules, but by speaking up when you see something wrong going down.
          And that is what I've done.

          For instance, if I see someone being exceptionally rude to another poster, I'll post, "Ouch! That was harsh."
          What if you were to instead say, "That was uncalled for. There is a difference between disagreeing and being a complete jerk. Learn diplomacy or I'll report you to the mods for bullying another member. You seem to have a repeated pattern of beating people up here and it needs to stop"?

          Most often the poster will acknowledge it, apologize and express their feelings in a less snarky, bullying or aggressive way.
          But notice that they will simply do it again, over and over. Bullies don't change their stripes.

          This is much more productive than going into another thread and complaining that there are mean people posting in the forum. Can you see the difference?
          Respectfully, I'm doing both. I have called out people in the threads and I am using this thread to make a general statement.

          Anyway, by stating that you don't moderate, you are saying that you aren't vested in our community...Hopefully, that is "yet".
          I have 500 some posts and I care enough to try to change the forum for the better. If that's not vested, I don't know what is.
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          • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
            Originally Posted by Giftys View Post



            What if you were to instead say, "That was uncalled for. There is a difference between disagreeing and being a complete jerk. Learn diplomacy or I'll report you to the mods for bullying another member. You seem to have a repeated pattern of beating people up here and it needs to stop"?
            Quite simply, because if I worded it that way, I'd be a hypocrite on a couple of levels. I wouldn't be acting diplomatically, and I'd be guilty of trying to bully someone into being diplomatic by threatening them with an ultimatum. Isn't that what bullies do? Threaten people? I'd rather make note of their response in a nonthreatening, lighthearted, friendly way.


            Originally Posted by Giftys View Post

            I have 500 some posts and I care enough to try to change the forum for the better. If that's not vested, I don't know what is.
            I'm glad you're vested, but may I recommend trying to change the forum for the better by being an example and role model rather than a finger pointer? Being a hallway monitor without the proper credentials tends to rub people the wrong way.

            Terra
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  • Profile picture of the author waterotter
    Is it possible that Giftys is dealing with some unresolved deep-seeded issues?

    After reading the Gifty's post #31, my first thought was "is s/he comparing this forum to public/high school?"

    Either way, I don't think anything that anyone says is going to change Gifty's attitude as a lot of sound advice has been given, yet s/he continues to argue to no avail.

    EDIT: was referring to OP by mistake, when in fact I was referring to Gifty's comments
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    • Profile picture of the author nik0
      Banned
      [DELETED]
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      • Profile picture of the author waterotter
        Originally Posted by nik0 View Post

        ???

        The title reads is the WF losing popularity, based on a feeling that I had, then someone pointed out Google Trends and it turns out that traffic did drop with 40%

        How can we argue about a simple fact?
        My Bad!

        I was referring to "Giftys" comments. I will edit now
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        • Profile picture of the author nik0
          Banned
          Originally Posted by waterotter View Post

          My Bad!

          I was referring to "Giftys" comments. I will edit now
          Lol okay, I already had an odd moment of how does this connect to the 1st post.
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  • Profile picture of the author bizwisard
    I do not believe that this forum is loosing popularity ,If anything it is gaining popularity.
    Look at the statistics on the main page ,Quite a bit of traffic as far as I ,am concerned .

    As for for bullies,I would suggest that their will always be those that feel superior to others and choose the broad way that leads to their own destruction.
    If you are one of the people that feels that they were being ridiculed and belittled you very well probably were .

    I ,am reminded of the story of Jesus who gave all of himself to the betterment of all mankind, healed the sick raised the dead and lived a perfect life .

    And in the end of his ministry was ridiculed belittled and ultimately nailed to a cross and crucified and given a criminals death sentence.
    Even then before he died he still took the high road and said "Father forgive them they know not what the do"

    The point is ,It is not how people treat you ,It is how "you" treat other ,Be the one that takes the "strait and narrow path" And be a giver "NOT" a getter.
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    It sounds harsh when we yell at our kids to prevent them from
    touching a hot stove. But, we are not being bullies as it is better
    that they don't do something that will harm them.

    I worked in the legal field and had a boss who people thought
    was harsh, but he was a lawyer himself and he just had passion
    for what we did and protected our process and service. Kept us
    non-lawyers from touching the hot stove.

    So, intent and context have to be considered. And, when trying
    to save someone from a bad or illegal or unethical business decision
    (or a similar bad decision about a personal issue in the OT forum), you
    have to allow for the different ways that people express concerns.
    And, the poster has to look at the intent of the "bully" response post.
    And, admit that even though it's his idea, it's still a bad one.

    There's one person in particular who's posts at first seemed very offensive
    to me. He is very successful in his field and I deleted my posts to him
    after I learned that's just how he is. And, I learned from the higher way that
    people who know him responded. They have a deeper and more intuitive
    understanding of his intentions and meanings.

    Perhaps trying to understand and allow for individual differences
    ought to be the first step on the forum bully issue. Which, I don't find
    much of an issue at all.

    Personally, I hang out in Offline and the OT and benefit a lot from
    coming to those forum sections.


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    • Profile picture of the author Giftys
      Originally Posted by bizgrower View Post

      It sounds harsh when we yell at our kids to prevent them from touching a hot stove. But, we are not being bullies as it is better that they don't do something that will harm them.
      I believe that would be the exception to the rule. That and running out in the street, etc. Quite different from a repeated pattern of bullying that some in this forum display.

      I worked in the legal field and had a boss who people thought
      was harsh, but he was a lawyer himself and he just had passion
      for what we did and protected our process and service.
      I hate laywers. :p

      So, intent and context have to be considered. And, when trying
      to save someone from a bad or illegal or unethical business decision
      (or a similar bad decision about a personal issue in the OT forum), you
      have to allow for the different ways that people express concerns.
      Never condone bullying. Regardless of your attempt to justify bad behavior, there's no excuse for it.

      There's one person in particular who's posts at first seemed very offensive
      to me. He is very successful in his field and I deleted my posts to him
      after I learned that's just how he is. And, I learned from the higher way that
      people who know him responded. They have a deeper and more intuitive
      understanding of his intentions and meanings.
      I addressed "enabling" in my earlier posts.

      Perhaps trying to understand and allow for individual differences
      ought to be the first step on the forum bully issue.
      We should seek to understand the difference between bullying and assertive conversation. There is a stark difference between the two. One is abusive, the other is not.
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      • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
        Originally Posted by Giftys View Post

        I believe that would be the exception to the rule. That and running out in the street, etc. Quite different from a repeated pattern of bullying that some in this forum display.


        I hate laywers. :p


        Never condone bullying. Regardless of your attempt to justify bad behavior, there's no excuse for it.



        I addressed "enabling" in my earlier posts.



        We should seek to understand the difference between bullying and assertive conversation. There is a stark difference between the two. One is abusive, the other is not.
        My examples were not meant to condone, excuse, or support
        the enabling of bullying. I meant to get at the idea that mature
        people can choose how to react to a forum post and filter
        it as bullying or not.
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        • Profile picture of the author Giftys
          Originally Posted by bizgrower View Post

          My examples were not meant to condone, excuse, or support
          the enabling of bullying. I meant to get at the idea that mature
          people can choose how to react to a forum post and filter
          it as bullying or not.
          A forum owner and moderators set the standard and tone just like a business owner and low-level managers set the tone and standard for their business. If they tolerate overly-aggressive behavior, that then becomes the standard for how they do business and there are many examples of that in the business world. Can a business be successful this way? Yes, just as a forum can. But is it good for us? No. And there there are always victims. I speak out for a hire standard overall but especially for the victims.

          Again, I think many in here have jumped on this bandwagon thinking that I'm calling a bully one who disagrees with someone else's opinion. Quite the contrary. Those people can sometimes be rude, sometimes be having a bad day or just lose control now and then. The bullies are more obvious. They consistently have an aggressive and bullying nature about them. The mods should call them out more often and raise the standards of the forum. You would then start seeing more quality over quantity - and of course more respect among members overall.
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        • Profile picture of the author Horny Devil
          Banned
          Wow, well in excess of a century in posts now. I've dropped in on this thread a few times but refrained from posting . . . until now.

          On an adult forum, being money orientated and connected with a gigantic volatile industry, you can expect more than your fair share of members with strong personalities and equally vociferous opinions.

          Speaking as someone who has been given an "involuntary holiday" from WF twice this year, for allegedly being rude to or insulting members (which I still dispute), you're going to find that it's always the Mods who have the final decision on what's interpreted as either insulting behaviour, or bullying as you say. In my instances no-one had complained, no infractions were posted, yet on the basis that the Mod(s) concerned found something posted by me against his interpretation of the rules, I was hung without a jury.

          This happens. It's a huge forum populated by tens of thousands of diverse characters. Flame wars, sarcasm, derision, mild humiliation, put-downs, and one-upmanship - all occur sporadically throughout the boards here. Bullying does not. Bullying is where a victim is systematically tormented, usually on a daily basis. If you can show me where a WF member has persistently followed another member from thread to thread, with the intention of intimidating him/her, then I'll mail $100 to your Paypal A/C now.

          It's apparent that some in this thread haven't grasped exactly how to define "bullying". For those who've said that if you don't find the forum to your personal liking, don't visit . . . that's the wrong attitude! What you should be saying is that bullying - by clear definition of the word - genuinely doesn't exist on here.

          As to the question posed by the OP; no, the WF has not lost popularity. It's certainly quieter than previous years but that's to be expected when the economy has made every man and his dog have to fight that much harder to survive. Many people are simply too busy trying to eke a living now to devote as much time as they once did whiling away hours on the internet.
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          • Profile picture of the author Giftys
            Originally Posted by Horny Devil View Post


            It's a huge forum populated by tens of thousands of diverse characters. Flame wars, sarcasm, derision, mild humiliation, put-downs, and one-upmanship - all occur sporadically throughout the boards here. Bullying does not. Bullying is where a victim is systematically tormented, usually on a daily basis. If you can show me where a WF member has persistently followed another member from thread to thread, with the intention of intimidating him/her, then I'll mail $100 to your Paypal A/C now.
            Wow, by your definition, a lot of jerks just got let off the hook. I suppose if one does not beat their wife than they could never commit spouse abuse right? That's how absurd your argument is. The problem is that this is also a forum about business. I'm sorry to tell you but the standard in here and how the mods let some of the senior members talk to the others is not how you conduct yourself in the business world. So, you can say "I have the right to say anything I want, etc because of free speech..." if you want to but it doesn't mean it's defined as good behavior nor should it be encouraged or supported in this forum. When one of these bullies starts attacking someone for asking an innocent question, he should be called out on it. And if it continues, he should be banned.
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  • Profile picture of the author Giftys
    Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

    Ban the crybabies.

    Face it, anyone who thinks they are bullied in a forum has no shot in the business world.
    That's a pretty immature statement Ken. Would you call trying to do something to stop bullying in schools being a crybaby? Than why on earth would you call it that in the business world? A previous member suggested that the difference is that a bully in school would push and shove the victim. He and others in here don't seem to understand the definition of bullying. They use aggressiveness (not assertiveness) and intimidation. There's quite a lot of that in here with particular members (they know who they are). We are not talking about normal business conversation or even diplomatic debate. We are talking about bullying.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Bullying is the "in" word now. I see it everywhere.

      I see people running around saying they are bullied simply because they didn't like what was said or how it was said. We are becoming a nation of victims.
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      • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
        Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

        Bullying is the "in" word now. I see it everywhere.

        I see people running around saying they are bullied simply because they didn't like what was said or how it was said. We are becoming a nation of victims.
        Another word that looks like it may apply .... Troll
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        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
          Banned
          Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

          Another word that looks like it may apply .... Troll
          My bad, we are becoming a nation of trolls. :p
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      • Profile picture of the author Giftys
        Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

        Bullying is the "in" word now. I see it everywhere.

        I see people running around saying they are bullied simply because they didn't like what was said or how it was said. We are becoming a nation of victims.
        It's all too easy to pass it off as "in" or "over-used". That would be like saying that all this attention over the ACA means that we're becoming a nation of whiners about healthcare because a lot of people can't afford health insurance. The fact remains that our health insurance system was corrupt and broken so acting like it's not a problem is irresponsible. There are real people out there that can't afford health insurance and there are real victims in the world that are bullied. Just like attention needs to be raised on how to fix healthcare, attention needs to be raised on how to define bullying and how to put a stop to it.
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        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Giftys View Post

          It's all too easy to pass it off as "in" or "over-used". That would be like saying that all this attention over the ACA means that we're becoming a nation of whiners about healthcare because a lot of people can't afford health insurance. The fact remains that our health insurance system was corrupt and broken so acting like it's not a problem is irresponsible. There are real people out there that can't afford health insurance and there are real victims in the world that are bullied. Just like attention needs to be raised on how to fix healthcare, attention needs to be raised on how to define bullying and how to put a stop to it.
          First bullying, next rape and now healthcare.

          I think your debating technique is to confuse until submission. Hmm, I don't know if I bullied you, raped you or gave you a physical just now.
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          • Profile picture of the author waterotter
            Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

            First bullying, next rape and now healthcare.

            I think your debating technique is to confuse until submission. Hmm, I don't know if I bullied you, raped you or gave you a physical just now.
            ROTHFLMAO, Thanks Thomas, I needed that
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          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

            First bullying, next rape and now healthcare.

            I think your debating technique is to confuse until submission. Hmm, I don't know if I bullied you, raped you or gave you a physical just now.
            roflmao...
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Giftys,
              That's a pretty immature statement Ken.
              I replied to this earlier, but it doesn't seem to have posted. Probably hit the daily database error...

              One could easily argue that Ken's comment is the most mature in the thread, because it calls on adults to take responsibility for how they respond to the world.

              Or not, depending on your perspective. Which is kind of the point, isn't it?

              nik0,
              Maybe you should be a little more active there to see what's going on.
              You mean like you implying recently, with zero basis for the comment, that another member is the kind of person who beats his wife? (I was just reminded of that by another participant in the SEO section.)

              Edit: I was wrong about who made the comment about wife-beating. It was not nik0. It was Giftys.

              I didn't say the folks on the other side of the nastiness were innocent. I've seen enough of that little battle to know there is plenty of blame to go around. I don't care even a little about which side of the argument is technically correct, if either. I do care about the nasty tone it took for years.

              I suspect the good folks who are now moderating that section are responding more to that same issue than to the factual debate, which isn't the place of a moderator to "decide."

              As far as me spending more time in there, you really should be glad I don't.


              Paul
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              • Profile picture of the author nik0
                Banned
                Please send details over by PM if you don't want to share it here cause I don't remember anything of such conversation.
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                • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                  Please send details over by PM if you don't want to share it here cause I don't remember anything of such conversation.
                  I misunderstood the reminder, and misplaced the blame. I have been informed that it was Giftys who made that comment about wife-beating, and not you.

                  I apologize for that.


                  Paul
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                  • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
                    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                    I misunderstood the reminder, and misplaced the blame. I have been informed that it was Giftys who made that comment about wife-beating, and not you.
                    And since that is out there now...

                    I find it completely ridiculous that the person rambling on and on about bullying taking place on this forum is the same person who made a baseless accusation against another member suggesting that they "probably beat their wife" about a week ago. How is that any better conduct on a forum? How is that making this a better place?
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                  • Profile picture of the author nik0
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                    I misunderstood the reminder, and misplaced the blame. I have been informed that it was Giftys who made that comment about wife-beating, and not you.

                    I apologize for that.


                    Paul
                    Lol you're the 2nd one today who accuses me by accident (in the same thread).

                    Apologies accepted
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                  • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
                    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                    I misunderstood the reminder, and misplaced the blame. I have been informed that it was Giftys who made that comment about wife-beating, and not you.

                    I apologize for that.


                    Paul
                    ^^This is the behavior of an adult.



                    This is not:

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      • Profile picture of the author travlinguy
        Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

        Bullying is the "in" word now. I see it everywhere.

        I see people running around saying they are bullied simply because they didn't like what was said or how it was said. We are becoming a nation of victims.
        Yep. And the first cousin to bullying is "hater." What's a hater? Anyone who doesn't agree with your point.

        I don't see a snarky response to a post or question as bullying. And if someone has a habit of coming across as a jerk, then just ignore them. There's no need for a crusade. Rudeness isn't bullying. It's rudeness. A personal threat (real or implied) is bullying. I've been here a while and haven't seen anything that comes close to it.
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        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
          Banned
          Originally Posted by travlinguy View Post

          Yep. And the first cousin to bullying is "hater." What's a hater? Anyone who doesn't agree with your point.

          I don't see a snarky response to a post or question as bullying. And if someone has a habit of coming across as a jerk, then just ignore them. There's no need for a crusade. Rudeness isn't bullying. It's rudeness. A personal threat (real or implied) is bullying. I've been here a while and haven't seen anything that comes close to it.
          Indeed, and I would say rudeness is subjective as well.

          I spent considerable time in Ukraine. A lot of western people think Ukrainian and Russians are rude. Now some may be rude, but most are incredibly kind. I think it stems from the way they speak. They tend to be more direct which has a correlation to how Russian is spoke compared to English.

          Direct = rude for many.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      And what do you mean with "it took for years", you lost me there.
      Almost 2 years, if you want to be specific about your individual situation. Gawd, it seems like so much longer that you've been in the center of that stuff.

      That section is like the copywriting sub-forum. Continuous, ongoing arguments from people with a stake in "proving" their own theories about the business, and enough ego to heat things up to broiling. It gets old after a while.

      I stay out of both areas unless I catch a report involving them. Too toxic for casual usage. I'd end up nuking accounts out of sheer disgust at the degree of casual rudeness.


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      • Profile picture of the author nik0
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Almost 2 years, if you want to be specific about your individual situation. Gawd, it seems like so much longer that you've been in the center of that stuff.

        That section is like the copywriting sub-forum. Continuous, ongoing arguments from people with a stake in "proving" their own theories about the business, and enough ego to heat things up to broiling. It gets old after a while.

        I stay out of both areas unless I catch a report involving them. Too toxic for casual usage. I'd end up nuking accounts out of sheer disgust at the degree of casual rudeness.


        Paul
        There's always two to blame and when people keep pushing me I push back.

        I ain't the type to sit idle and ignore things.

        Someone lately made a comparison in this thread about high/public school, well that's kind of what happens here, a group of old time members stick together and new ones that chime in stick with the popular group and start attacking me out of the blue as well so it's pretty easy to become the underdog here when you don't agree with the majority.

        And frankly I don't care about being the underdog but I definitely do not let them roll over me.

        Simple like that.

        And I definitely know where the hates come from, it's purely based on jealousy cause I sometimes brag a bit too much. That's why I said you should spend more time there, then you would witness it with your own eye's instead of getting biased snippets passed on from others. You're missing the bigger picture and I can't blame you for that as you probably have more to do then hang out all day there, same like the regulars.
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        • Profile picture of the author Giftys
          Originally Posted by nik0 View Post


          Someone lately made a comparison in this thread about high/public school, well that's kind of what happens here, a group of old time members stick together and new ones that chime in stick with the popular group and start attacking me out of the blue as well so it's pretty easy to become the underdog here when you don't agree with the majority.

          And frankly I don't care about being the underdog but I definitely do not let them roll over me.
          And that about sums it up. Thanks for having the courage to speak up nik0.
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        • Profile picture of the author yukon
          Banned
          Originally Posted by nik0 View Post

          And I definitely know where the hates come from, it's purely based on jealousy cause I sometimes brag a bit too much.
          There's a difference between bragging & spamming a forum for financial gain.

          I've never seen you brag.
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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by Giftys View Post

      That's a pretty immature statement Ken. Would you call trying to do something to stop bullying in schools being a crybaby? Than why on earth would you call it that in the business world? A previous member suggested that the difference is that a bully in school would push and shove the victim. He and others in here don't seem to understand the definition of bullying. They use aggressiveness (not assertiveness) and intimidation. There's quite a lot of that in here with particular members (they know who they are). We are not talking about normal business conversation or even diplomatic debate. We are talking about bullying.
      This is not a school, where children are being taught to be people of integrity. This forum is ADULTS. If you feel shoved and unable to deal with it, perhaps that is your problem and not ours. If you feel you have to defend everyone and anyone on here that is spoken to roughly, perhaps you have some sort of complex that makes you see it as your duty to "take care" of other adults as if they were children.

      I've been straight out told to "go to hell ,bitch" on this forum. You would probably consider that "bullying". I don't. I consider it someone without a logical position to post against mine taking a last ditch approach by using ad homimen argumentation. The statement was over the limit and deleted, although, I would have loved to answer such a weak form of self defense.

      What I'm saying, since you are missing EVERYONE'S point here, is that if you feel that there is too much bullying - maybe it's YOU that needs protection from the big bad monsters and not everyone else.

      The question left in my mind is == are you actually legally old enough to be in here or are you a high school kid trying to pass as an adult?

      Sorry Paul. I'm such a freaking bully. *anticipating the waaaaaah answer already*
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  • Profile picture of the author Giftys
    Guts is enough. Watch this and think.

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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Guts is enough. Watch this and think.
      Because, of course, there's evidence all over this thread that none of the participants is thinking...
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    There's always two to blame and when people keep pushing me I push back.
    You choose how you push back, and the how is the part I'm objecting to.
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  • Profile picture of the author Giftys
    Seems like a lot of people identify with my posts. They're frigging coming out of the woodwork!
    It's OK. There's a built-in clan mentality that's not much different than protecting your brother (even though he's the one that threw the first punch) or standing by your football team regardless of the fact that a few of their teammates cheat to win. It's all to be expected.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Communities tend to develop consensus over time, and this one is old by any web standard. People who agree with the general philosophy will tend to stay, and those who think differently will tend to look for places that better match their own beliefs about things. And, dare I say it, long experience will nudge rational people in the direction of what works and is real, which further reinforces the likelihood of agreement among "senior" members of the group.

      That's a normal thing.


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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    Giftys it may help if you give a concrete example.

    Some of your comments on this thread were negative, pushy, being a jerk, unhelpful, etc. You did it several times. So some people may see you as the bully here.

    But you keep trying to explain without explaining anything. Give an example so we can all get on the same page for the sake of the community.

    Mark
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    • Profile picture of the author Giftys
      Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

      Some of your comments on this thread were negative, pushy, being a jerk, unhelpful, etc. You did it several times. So some people may see you as the bully here.
      Well, that's like saying the fat kid in this video is the bully because he stood up to the bullies. Watch him body slam that little jerk. I'll bet that hurt!


      And here he is getting rewarded for his action. He wouldn't have gotten that in the schoolyard as there was nobody that would support him there (clan mentality). But he got more of a reward than he could ever expect. What a nice kid and kudos to Justin for what he did.

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      • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
        Originally Posted by Giftys View Post

        Well, that's like saying the fat kid in this video is the bully because he stood up to the bullies. Watch him body slam that little jerk. I'll bet that hurt!

        Bully Gets Slammed By Fat Kid The Hard Way - YouTube

        And here he is getting rewarded for his action. He wouldn't have gotten that in the schoolyard as there was nobody that would support him there (clan mentality). But he got more of a reward than he could ever expect. What a nice kid and kudos to Justin for what he did.

        Justin Bieber / Casey Heynes Bullying Interview - A Current Affair ACA - Melbourne Ch 9 - YouTube
        Is that your concrete example of how bullying is happening here on this forum? I've yet to see or hear of anyone being body slammed.

        I'm talking about words. What words, what attitude is bullying to you? By your #1 in your signature, you may be guilty of the very thing you vaguely accuse others of.

        Mark
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        • Profile picture of the author Giftys
          Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

          Is that your concrete example of how bullying is happening here on this forum? I've yet to see or hear of anyone being body slammed.
          Are you trying to tell me you've never seen intimidation and overly-aggressive behavior in here by (particulary) certain members? Be honest now Mark.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
            Originally Posted by Giftys View Post

            Are you trying to tell me you've never seen intimidation and overly-aggressive behavior in here by (particulary) certain members? Be honest now Mark.
            In 13 years or so I've seen all kinds of rudeness, jerks, etc.

            Let me give you a couple examples:

            Paul, I'm not responsible for helping you understand what a bully is. Look up the definition and you've got your answer. Then apply it to the forum wherever it fits. It's really that simple.
            Mike, I don't have time to go through the forum and pull out every example of when someones been a complete a**hole. Do your own search. They're not hard to find.
            My personal opinion is that condescending, unhelpful attitude was uncalled for. Borderline jerk, troll, etc.

            I've never seen much more than that, seriously.

            I have seen where people were ripped off and the mob mentality says "he lives a couple cities over, let's pay him a visit and get our refund".

            I've also seen a couple cases where someone says something like "you are tough behind that username, let's do a meet up and see how tough you really are".

            Both of those are clearly wrong because it indicates violence may be planned.

            I've seen newbies asking how to make $1,000 a month to get out of debt be ridiculed because they have a signature that says you can make $1,000 with this easy, peasy ebook they are selling. I think that is appropriate. Does the OP feel bad. Of course - they are a scammer in a sense.

            I've seen people being told to Google it. That is appropriate because many people expect everything to be handed to them on a silver platter.

            I called your comparison to rape idiocy. I think that is the truth and don't feel an apology is needed.

            So again what exactly is bullying? What are you fighting against?

            Mark
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            • Profile picture of the author Giftys
              Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

              In 13 years or so I've seen all kinds of rudeness, jerks, etc.

              Let me give you a couple examples:





              My personal opinion is that condescending, unhelpful attitude was uncalled for. Borderline jerk, troll, etc.

              I've never seen much more than that, seriously.

              I have seen where people were ripped off and the mob mentality says "he lives a couple cities over, let's pay him a visit and get our refund".

              I've also seen a couple cases where someone says something like "you are tough behind that username, let's do a meet up and see how tough you really are".

              Both of those are clearly wrong because it indicates violence may be planned.

              I've seen newbies asking how to make $1,000 a month to get out of debt be ridiculed because they have a signature that says you can make $1,000 with this easy, peasy ebook they are selling. I think that is appropriate. Does the OP feel bad. Of course - they are a scammer in a sense.

              I've seen people being told to Google it. That is appropriate because many people expect everything to be handed to them on a silver platter.

              I called your comparison to rape idiocy. I think that is the truth and don't feel an apology is needed.

              So again what exactly is bullying? What are you fighting against?

              Mark
              Well, that's like saying the fat kid in this video is the bully because he stood up to the bullies. Watch him body slam that little jerk. I'll bet that hurt!

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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Giftys,
        The mods should call them out more often and raise the standards of the forum.
        Report them and we'll do something about it if they're over the line. For me, dealing with such posts is a regular occurrence.

        Someone posted stats back in June that showed this forum accrued an average of (IIRC) over 4000 non-spam posts per day over the preceding year. How many of those do you expect the mods to read?

        For the most part, we see what's reported.

        Mark,
        But you keep trying to explain without explaining anything.
        Common tactic. It lets the person employing it sound good without having to run the risk of having a tangible position.

        Same thing the people did who kept shouting for ages about how the mods deleted all negative comments about WSOs. As soon as I started challenging them to go look at the last 2 pages of a few threads that were more than 3 pages long, the regular mouthpieces stopped. The simple fact that so many negative comments remained posted was enough to pull their teeth.

        This one is harder, because "bullying" is such a subjective term, and the forum is large enough that no-one can see everything that goes on.

        Giftys isn't interested in making this constructive. He's interested in feeling (and/or looking) like an avenger of the "victims" of voluntary discussion. Otherwise he wouldn't equate conversational abruptness with forcible rape.


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author Giftys
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          Giftys,Report them and we'll do something about it if they're over the line.
          Will do.

          Common tactic. It lets the person employing it sound good without having to run the risk of having a tangible position.
          On the contrary, if you feel you need to request that someone search the forum to give specific examples of someone (particularly the repeat offenders) being overly-aggressive and bullying, they would not then know that that someone is bullying if it stared them in the face. This is called denial and it's usually a sign that the person you're presenting the information to is a jerk themselves. That said, you can bet that I'll be reporting the next one I see. Should be interesting to see if anything becomes of it. Not expecting much in a forum that 'looks the other way' it but it doesn't hurt to try right. LOL

          Giftys isn't interested in making this constructive. He's interested in feeling (and/or looking) like an avenger of the "victims" of voluntary discussion. Otherwise he wouldn't equate conversational abruptness with forcible rape.
          Oh brother.
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        • Profile picture of the author Horny Devil
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


          Giftys isn't interested in making this constructive. He's interested in feeling (and/or looking) like an avenger of the "victims" of voluntary discussion. Otherwise he wouldn't equate conversational abruptness with forcible rape.
          You've not just hit, but battered the nail on the head there.


          @Giftys . . . there's absolutely no point conversing with you any further. You've got the dubious satisfaction of prolonging a thread with the most pathetic interpretation of a dictionary word that I've ever had the misfortune to come across.

          I feel for you man, I really do. A misguided mind spliced with indignity is a tortured mind indeed.
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          • Profile picture of the author Giftys
            Originally Posted by Horny Devil View Post

            I feel for you man, I really do. A misguided mind spliced with indignity is a tortured mind indeed.
            And that's coming from the devil. A horny one at that. Ha-ha!
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            • Profile picture of the author Horny Devil
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Giftys View Post

              And that's coming from the devil. A horny one at that. Ha-ha!
              Rather the Devil with his legions, than the solitary crusader on his white steed without a saddle. The fall always hurts.
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            That said, you can bet that I'll be reporting the next one I see. Should be interesting to see if anything becomes of it. Not expecting much in a forum that 'looks the other way' it but it doesn't hurt to try right.
            I mentioned earlier that we act when it's over the line, as the mods draw it. I also mentioned that we don't play babysitter. If you start reporting trivial rudenesses, you can expect your reports to be ignored.

            If you wish to present a difference of opinion on where the lines should be drawn as "looking the other way," feel free. It won't accomplish much, but it will probably make you feel vindicated and righteous.


            Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          HD,
          If you can show me where a WF member has persistently followed another member from thread to thread, with the intention of intimidating him/her, then I'll mail $100 to your Paypal A/C now.
          It happens at least 3 times a week, on average. You won't see it very often because it gets reported and we deal with it. Usually with either a very clear warning and a deletion of the involved posts or a lengthy (or permanent) ban.
          In my instances no-one had complained, no infractions were posted, yet on the basis that the Mod(s) concerned found something posted by me against his interpretation of the rules, I was hung without a jury.
          You assume wrongly in at least the one case I'm familiar with. You were reported for what two other members considered part of a pattern of excessive rudeness.

          As far as the rest... a jury? Do you have any idea what would happen to this place if we required more than one person to weigh in on day-to-day decisions regarding enforcement of the rules?

          Nothing at all is what, other than the forum filling up with every sort of problem imaginable, and at a rate that would increase rapidly as people realized they had a lengthy period their abuses would stand before being deleted.

          That's why we're so careful about who has access to the moderation controls, and why only a few of the mods have ban authority.


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          • Profile picture of the author Giftys
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            HD,It happens at least 3 times a week, on average. You won't see it very often because it gets reported and we deal with it. Usually with either a very clear warning and a deletion of the involved posts or a lengthy (or permanent) ban.You assume wrongly in at least the one case I'm familiar with. You were reported for what two other members considered part of a pattern of excessive rudeness.

            As far as the rest... a jury? Do you have any idea what would happen to this place if we required more than one person to weigh in on day-to-day decisions regarding enforcement of the rules?

            Nothing at all is what, other than the forum filling up with every sort of problem imaginable, and at a rate that would increase rapidly as people realized they had a lengthy period their abuses would stand before being deleted.

            That's why we're so careful about who has access to the moderation controls, and why only a few of the mods have ban authority.


            Paul
            Paul, you don't like me and I don't like you. We've established that. But I do respect your attempt to "try" and deal with aggressive behavior if in fact you do according to this post. But I've got to say, there are so many "jerks" (since you don't like the word bully) that still need to be controlled. They're ruining this forum for a lot of people. Aggressively jumping on people that ask innocent questions is uncalled for. Can you imagine someone walking in your office to get business advice and (regardless of how silly you think the question is) treating them with such aggression. This really is a no-brainer. But the so many of these overly-aggressive types have set the norm in here and quite frankly I sometimes wonder whether people are scared to stand up to them.
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          • Profile picture of the author Horny Devil
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            HD,It happens at least 3 times a week, on average. You won't see it very often because it gets reported and we deal with it.
            Glad to hear it.


            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            You assume wrongly in at least the one case I'm familiar with. You were reported for what two other members considered part of a pattern of excessive rudeness.
            I assume rightly that a few new members may have taken blunt advice in the wrong way. Advice that was endorsed and "thanked" by several long term and respected WF members. However, that is the past, this is not the place to be rekindling it, and this thread is now overdue closure as it's starting to recycle itself.


            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


            As far as the rest... a jury? Do you have any idea what would happen to this place if we required more than one person to weigh in on day-to-day decisions regarding enforcement of the rules?
            It wasn't meant in the literal sense. I'm sure you knew that, but you do love to put your point across.
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              I can't believe you're a moderator.
              Yep. I was the first moderator here, way back when we had only a couple of thousand members, and perhaps 200 or 300 active posters.

              That was in 1998 or 99. Since then, there have been dog-only-knows how many people who've stated that my approach to moderating would kill the place.

              Some said it because they thought I was too strict. Others because they believed I was not strict enough. Yet more others because I took a strong stance against certain abusive practices, like email spamming and piracy and other pure black hat stuff. Some because I'm not averse to being rude when I believe it's the only/most productive response.

              There is a simple fact that every person who's worn the mod hat here for any length of time has either known when they started or learned very quickly: You will not please everyone, and some of the displeased will be loud about their displeasure.

              Moderating is about looking for the right balance, not gaining approval.


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        • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


          This one is harder, because "bullying" is such a subjective term
          I think this is the heart of the issue. Giftys, you are attempting
          to enforce a dictionary-style definition where it just doesn't fit.
          It just isn't a one-size-fits-all type of problem. I'm sorry, but it's not.

          Your crusade is very noble, but it's misplaced. And perhaps a couple
          of years from now, you will look back on this conversation and
          realize that you are the one in danger of being the kind of bully
          you proclaim we must all stand up against.



          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          Otherwise he wouldn't equate conversational abruptness with forcible rape.

          That "rape" comment that you made is a prime example. I am still
          incapable of offering a civil response to that comment. The analogy
          is so far off base, so crude and just plain wrong...

          Well, I'm going to stop there.


          Giftys, there *are* times when your crusade against bullies
          would be appreciated. Specific times, and specific circumstances.

          Continuous, vague, unsupported accusations against groups of people...
          Well really, what does that sound like to you?
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          • Profile picture of the author Giftys
            Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

            I think this is the heart of the issue. Giftys, you are attempting
            to enforce a dictionary-style definition where it just doesn't fit.
            It just isn't a one-size-fits-all type of problem. I'm sorry, but it's not.

            Your crusade is very noble, but it's misplaced. And perhaps a couple
            of years from now, you will look back on this conversation and
            realize that you are the one in danger of being the kind of bully
            you proclaim we must all stand up against.
            Thanks for the diplomatic reply. I think the disconnect is that you see it as a place where there are time when it's OK to treat someone so aggressively and I see it no different than the business world itself. This stuff just doesn't happen in the office. You talk to anyone in my company that aggressively and with such intimidation and you're out. Period. And it's like that in most professional companies. But for some reason, everyone wants a pass in here, regardless of the fact that this is still a forum that revolves around business.

            Giftys, there *are* times when your crusade against bullies
            would be appreciated. Specific times, and specific circumstances.

            Continuous, vague, unsupported accusations against groups of people...
            Well really, what does that sound like to you.
            It sounds like someone that is speaking to the root of the problem.
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Paul, you don't like me and I don't like you.
              Ummm... Huh? I don't know you well enough to have formed an opinion of you as a person. I find some of your comments objectionable, but that's a very different thing.
              But I've got to say, there are so many "jerks" (since you don't like the word bully) that still need to be controlled.
              The function of the moderators is not to control people. It's to enforce the rules and maintain the usability of the forum for the members. Occasional rudeness is an unavoidable by-product of allowing a varied and multi-national group of this size the freedom to discuss things openly.

              Adult conversation isn't always sunshine and puppies.


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              • Profile picture of the author Giftys
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                The function of the moderators is not to control people. It's to enforce the rules and maintain the usability of the forum for the members. Occasional rudeness is an unavoidable by-product of allowing a varied and multi-national group of this size the freedom to discuss things openly.

                Adult conversation isn't always sunshine and puppies.
                Wow. Just wow! I can't believe you're a moderator. And therein lies the problem folks. As I've been saying, it all starts with the owners and the mods.
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              • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
                Originally Posted by Giftys View Post

                There is NEVER a time when over-aggressive behavior and intimidation has a place in an office environment or any workplace for that matter. So why on earth would it be tolerated in a "business" forum?

                Because:


                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                The function of the moderators is not to control people. It's to enforce the rules and maintain the usability of the forum for the members. Occasional rudeness is an unavoidable by-product of allowing a varied and multi-national group of this size the freedom to discuss things openly.

                Adult conversation isn't always sunshine and puppies.

                Paul


                Ultimately, what you call "over aggressive" others call "straight talk".
                This isn't a corporation with a bunch of HR nannies trying to make sure
                the company doesn't get sued.

                People here have a lot of freedom to say what they think and feel,
                and that is one of the absolute best things about this place.
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          • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
            Originally Posted by Giftys View Post

            I think the disconnect is that you see it as a place where there are time when it's OK to treat someone so aggressively
            Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

            Continuous, vague, unsupported accusations

            Well really, what does that sound like to you?
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            • Profile picture of the author Giftys
              Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

              Well really, what does that sound like to you?
              My unwillingness to provide specific examples seems to be matched by your unwillingness to concede that the behavior in this forum should match that of what's expected in a professional place of business. There is NEVER a time when over-aggressive behavior and intimidation has a place in an office environment or any workplace for that matter. So why on earth would it be tolerated in a "business" forum?
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              • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                My unwillingness to provide specific examples seems to be matched by your unwillingness to concede that the behavior in this forum should match that of what's expected in a professional place of business.
                I certainly wouldn't concede anything of the kind.

                A workplace environment requires certain standards in order for the employees to accomplish the goals and tasks set out for them by their employer. Note: Commonly held goals and tasks.

                The moderators here, while not employees or owners of the forum, work together in that kind of professional manner. We have common goals, and largely similar standards. The members are here for their own purposes, and those vary almost as widely as the membership itself. Enforcing workplace norms in this environment would be unwise, to say the least.

                An orchestrated exercise in futility.


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                • Profile picture of the author Giftys
                  Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                  I certainly wouldn't concede anything of the kind.

                  A workplace environment requires certain standards in order for the employees to accomplish the goals and tasks set out for them by their employer. Note: Commonly held goals and tasks.

                  The moderators here, while not employees or owners of the forum, work together in that kind of professional manner. We have common goals, and largely similar standards. The members are here for their own purposes, and those vary almost as widely as the membership itself. Enforcing workplace norms in this environment would be unwise, to say the least.

                  An orchestrated exercise in futility.


                  Paul
                  That's a copout and you know it. You can definitely enforce banning of overly-aggressive behavior but you choose not to. I suppose you think parenting a teen is an exercise in futility? What do you do, just give up or make excuses for why you don't? Of course not.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                    You can definitely enforce banning of overly-aggressive behavior but you choose not to.
                    That is essentially calling me a liar, when the reality is simply that we probably have differing standards for the phrase "overly aggressive."

                    The statement that I choose not to do anything about what I consider overly aggressive is simply false. And quite a few of the people posting in this thread could tell you the truth of that if they chose.

                    Here's a beginner's lesson in reality: Saying a false thing does not make it true, no matter how loudly or often you say it.
                    That's a copout and you know it.
                    Not really your stone to throw, is it?

                    I have given the substantive basis for every policy and opinion I have expressed in this thread. You have not, and you have been aggressive in your avoidance.

                    Which of us is "copping out," sir?


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                    • Profile picture of the author Giftys
                      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                      That is essentially calling me a liar, when the reality is simply that we probably have differing standards for the phrase "overly aggressive."

                      The statement that I choose not to do anything about what I consider overly aggressive is simply false. And quite a few of the people posting in this thread could tell you the truth of that if they chose.

                      Here's a beginner's lesson in reality: Saying a false thing does not make it true, no matter how loudly or often you say it.Not really your stone to throw, is it?

                      I have given the substantive basis for every policy and opinion I have expressed in this thread. You have not, and you have been aggressive in your avoidance.

                      Which of us is "copping out," sir?


                      Paul
                      By chance are you a member of the Tea Party? That would explain a lot. :p
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                      • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                        Which of us is "copping out," sir?


                        Paul
                        Originally Posted by Giftys View Post

                        By chance are you a member of the Tea Party? That would explain a lot. :p
                        1. Is it hard for you to answer someone's question without being a jerk?

                        [Edit: The above question was taken from Gifty's own signature. Said signature has now been changed.]
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                        • Profile picture of the author Giftys
                          Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                          1. Is it hard for you to answer someone's question without being a jerk?
                          Geesh, wait for him to answer it Dan.
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              • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
                Originally Posted by Giftys View Post

                My unwillingness to provide specific examples seems to be matched by your unwillingness to concede that the behavior in this forum should match that of what's expected in a professional place of business.

                "What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof."

                - Christopher Hitchens

                Seriously, this is getting beyond tedious. Can you at least confirm that your generalizations pertain mainly to the SEO sub-section - a place I suspect the few members who may still be following this thread seldom, if at all, visit. That might help the "deniers" and "jerks" who thus far have been mystified by this talk of rampant WF bullying feel a little better about ourselves.

                Frank
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                • Profile picture of the author Giftys
                  Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post


                  "What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof."

                  - Christopher Hitchens
                  Hi Frank. I love Christopher Hitchens. Thanks for quoting him! To address; yes, there is proof throughout the forums. Just open your eyes and look around. If you don't see bullying for what it is or can't recognize overly-aggressive behavior and intimidation, well, I don't know what to say.

                  Can you at least confirm that your generalizations pertain mainly to the SEO sub-section - a place I suspect the few members who may still be following this thread seldom, if at all, visit. That might help the "deniers" and "jerks" who thus far have been mystified by this talk of rampant WF bullying feel a little better about ourselves.
                  Why on earth would someone identify with being a jerk if you did not feel it pertained to you? That's like being scared of the cops when you've never done anything wrong. For anyone that it doesn't pertain to, they would have no reason to have an impassioned response.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
                    Originally Posted by Giftys View Post

                    Why on earth would someone identify with being a jerk if you did not feel it pertained to you?
                    I identify myself with those asking you for specific examples. So this quote presumably applies to me:

                    if you feel you need to request that someone search the forum to give specific examples of someone (particularly the repeat offenders) being overly-aggressive and bullying, they would not then know that that someone is bullying if it stared them in the face. This is called denial and it's usually a sign that the person you're presenting the information to is a jerk themselves.
                    Frank
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                  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                    That's like being scared of the cops when you've never done anything wrong.
                    Depends on how much you trust the police, doesn't it?

                    I've lived in places where the police were what one would hope them to be: Sensible, responsible keepers of the peace. I've also lived in places where rational, law-abiding people feared them.

                    When you have someone endorsing vague and non-specific standards, it's wise to question them warily. They create unnecessary confusion, which isn't useful in a community setting.


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                    • Profile picture of the author Giftys
                      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                      When you have someone endorsing vague and non-specific standards, it's wise to question them warily. They create unnecessary confusion, which isn't useful in a community setting.
                      Please explain to me what's vague and non-specific about the fact that you have an obligation to stand up against overly-aggressive behavior in this forum by certain members?
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                      • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
                        Originally Posted by Giftys View Post

                        Please explain to me what's vague and non-specific about the fact that you have an obligation to stand up against overly-aggressive behavior in this forum by certain members?
                        As the person making the accusation, you have an "obligation"
                        to offer a specific instance in which "overly aggressive" behavior
                        was allowed to continue in the forum.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Giftys
                          Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

                          As the person making the accusation, you have an "obligation"
                          to offer a specific instance in which "overly aggressive" behavior
                          was allowed to continue in the forum.
                          I think Paul should answer this one. It was a question directly asked to him.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                        By chance are you a member of the Tea Party?
                        I am not a member of any political party. Beyond that, my political views are irrelevant to this discussion, and any others that might happen in this forum.
                        Please explain to me what's vague and non-specific about the fact that you have an obligation to stand up against overly-aggressive behavior in this forum by certain members?
                        Again, the non-sequitur.

                        First off, I commented on the applicable standards, and you replied with something unrelated.

                        Secondly, I have exactly zero obligations to do anything in this forum at all.

                        Understand that: I am not an employee, owner, partner, or anything else even remotely like any of those. I am a moderator, and I could walk away from that role at any time, without owing anyone anything in the process.

                        Including you.

                        Thirdly, I have stated that I actively stand up against what I see as overly aggressive behavior, every time I see it. The real complaint that you have is that I don't draw the line in the same place you would.

                        You're just going to have to get over that. Or not. That's your choice.


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                        • Profile picture of the author Giftys
                          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


                          Secondly, I have exactly zero obligations to do anything in this forum at all.
                          Then why are you a mod?
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                          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                            Then why are you a mod?
                            Because I want to encourage what this forum can do for people. I became invested in that goal many years ago and still see it as being valuable.

                            Why do you care what my motivations are?


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                            • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
                              Originally Posted by Giftys View Post

                              It's interesting to me, and very telling, how not one person that has debated this issue has talked about how this forum could improve if it did not tolerate overly-aggressive behavior within. It reminds me of those that consistently and continually trash the new healthcare law, never once mentioning the benefit that it provides (affordable healthcare) to millions of low income Americans (particularly). I believe so many are blinded by their own stubbornness. Their pride trumps their compassion such as in the case in here where I am simply speaking up for the victims of these tyrants (the forum bullies).
                              I think it is far more telling that none of those "victims" you claim to be so abundant on this forum have come here to agree with you.

                              Originally Posted by Giftys View Post

                              I have clearly demonstrated that you're not doing enough. You should resign. If you were in my company, you would have been fired a long time ago. Keeping an overly-aggressive bully out of a forum is not a difficult task, nor is knowing the difference between someone debating and someone beating up on others.
                              You have clearly demonstrated nothing.

                              You are just trolling at this point.
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                              • Profile picture of the author Giftys
                                Originally Posted by MikeFriedman View Post


                                You have clearly demonstrated nothing.

                                You are just trolling at this point.
                                You starting to feel threatened Mike? Yea... you can identify with a lot of what I've said huh? Everybody watch this one. He's a real gunslinger!
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                                • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
                                  Originally Posted by Giftys View Post

                                  You starting to feel threatened Mike? Yea... you can identify with a lot of what I've said huh? Everybody watch this one, he's a real gunslinger!
                                  Seriously, the only aggressive behavior has been from you.

                                  Nearly every thread I have watched that you were involved in the past few weeks turned into a fight.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Giftys
                                    Originally Posted by MikeFriedman View Post

                                    Seriously, the only aggressive behavior has been from you.

                                    Nearly every thread I have watched that you were involved in the past few weeks turned into a fight.
                                    Well then a mod would have to determine who is the aggressor right? I wonder if he's smart enough to figure it out? He could simply read my posts and then read your posts. He could then ban whomever he pleases but he'll only get it "right" if he picks the bully.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Giftys
                          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


                          Thirdly, I have stated that I actively stand up against what I see as overly aggressive behavior, every time I see it. The real complaint that you have is that I don't draw the line in the same place you would.

                          Paul
                          I have clearly demonstrated that you're not doing enough. You should resign. If you were in my company, you would have been fired a long time ago. Keeping an overly-aggressive bully out of a forum is not a difficult task, nor is knowing the difference between someone debating and someone beating up on others.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                            I have clearly demonstrated that you're not doing enough.
                            You have stated that is your belief, which is fine.

                            You haven't "clearly demonstrated" anything at all. You have steadfastly refused to give even a hypothetical example of what you consider to be "overly aggressive," other than wife-beating, forcible rape, and schoolyard abuse. None of which have anything to do with voluntary discussion.


                            Paul
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                            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                              Mike,
                              I think it is far more telling that none of those "victims" you claim to be so abundant on this forum have come here to agree with you.
                              To be fair, the thread title and first page content wouldn't make it clear to anyone that the topic had evolved in this direction. Also, people with victim mentalities or thin skins don't tend to stay in OT very long.


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                          • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
                            Originally Posted by Giftys View Post

                            It's interesting to me, and very telling, how not one person that has debated this issue has talked about how this forum could improve if it did not tolerate overly-aggressive behavior within.
                            It has been said several times that if you see over-aggressive
                            behavior, you should report it. That is about as "from within"
                            as it gets.


                            Originally Posted by Giftys View Post

                            I have clearly demonstrated that you're not doing enough.
                            No, you absolutely have not. You have made an accusation
                            and offered zero supporting evidence. The onus of proof
                            is on you, and you have not given one single specific example.

                            Every time someone has suggested that you give a specific
                            example, you respond with something like, "Just search for
                            it, it's everywhere" or "If you can't see it then I don't know
                            what to tell you".


                            Originally Posted by Giftys View Post

                            If you were in my company, you would have been fired a long time ago.
                            If you were in one of my forums, you would have been banned and
                            all of your posts deleted long ago, probably after that dumbass
                            "rape" comment. It is a testament to Paul's patience and fairness--
                            and evidence of the fact that he considers the whole forum and
                            not just the "old guard" or the new members-- that both you
                            and this thread are still here.


                            As for me, I'm done trying.
                            I can no longer view you as anything
                            other than a troll.


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                            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                              Well then a mod would have to determine who is the aggressor right?
                              It is not prudent to assume that a moderator necessarily thinks in such limited binary patterns.

                              This discussion has served a potentially very useful purpose. I doubt it's the purpose either of us envisioned at the start, or one you've even considered at all, but it could be useful nonetheless.


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                              • Profile picture of the author Giftys
                                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                                This discussion has served a potentially very useful purpose. I doubt it's the purpose either of us envisioned at the start, or one you've even considered at all, but it could be useful nonetheless.
                                I'm not sure what to make of that but thanks (sincerely) for the acknowledgement.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Horny Devil
                    Banned
                    @Giftys

                    I really don't know what you're trying to achieve. You've made your point, dressed it up with assorted, ill-founded assertions, and refuse to acknowledge that the ammunition you keep returning won't make one iota of difference to either the moderating policy or rules of WF.

                    In a few days time this thread will be slowly drifting towards the nether regions of the OTF, newbies and long term tenants of the place will be chewing over a multitude of new material posted, yet you will in all likelihood have this on your mind for days or even weeks to come.

                    Have you ever once considered that people are overwhelmingly disputing your viewpoint. Many of those are very intelligent people. That's not to say that the minority view is always wrong, but where exactly are the victims of these oh so dreadful, frequent cases of bullying you keep referring to? You've been asked the question numerous times in the thread but keep swerving it.

                    This forum is no different to any of the multitude of others out there. I've seen serious spats on pet forums and even religious forums. But you'd class it as bullying.

                    As the thread has progressed, so you've progressively made more of a fool of yourself. Sometimes it's easier to bow out gracefully with a modicum of pride still intact or you stand to lose the respect of other members. I've met many people in life that thought and even insisted they were right when they were comprehensively wrong. Thinking you're right and being right are two completely different things.

                    Knowing when the battle is lost is a warriors strength.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Giftys
                      Originally Posted by Horny Devil View Post

                      @Giftys

                      I really don't know what you're trying to achieve. You've made your point, dressed it up with assorted, ill-founded assertions, and refuse to acknowledge that the ammunition you keep returning won't make one iota of difference to either the moderating policy or rules of WF.

                      In a few days time this thread will be slowly drifting towards the nether regions of the OTF, newbies and long term tenants of the place will be chewing over a multitude of new material posted, yet you will in all likelihood have this on your mind for days or even weeks to come.

                      Have you ever once considered that people are overwhelmingly disputing your viewpoint. Many of those are very intelligent people. That's not to say that the minority view is always wrong, but where exactly are the victims of these oh so dreadful, frequent cases of bullying you keep referring to? You've been asked the question numerous times in the thread but keep swerving it.

                      This forum is no different to any of the multitude of others out there. I've seen serious spats on pet forums and even religious forums. But you'd class it as bullying.

                      As the thread has progressed, so you've progressively made more of a fool of yourself. Sometimes it's easier to bow out gracefully with a modicum of pride still intact or you stand to lose the respect of other members. I've met many people in life that thought and even insisted they were right when they were comprehensively wrong. Thinking you're right and being right are two completely different things.

                      Knowing when the battle is lost is a warriors strength.
                      Oh horny one (lol)... Wisdom will carry you far. When you drop a pebble into a lake, the lake ripples. Something always happens. It is inevitable. Seeds are planted. Those that are wise will learn. Those that are fools will not.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Horny Devil
                        Banned
                        Originally Posted by Giftys View Post

                        Wisdom will carry you far. When you drop a pebble into a lake, the lake ripples. Something always happens. It is inevitable. Seeds are planted. Those that are wise will learn. Those that are fools will not.
                        Sad. Very sad.

                        You're one confused, idiosyncratic, arrogant fool. Thank god you weren't in command in a war, sending thousands of trusting troops over the trenches in a direction you chose, against the advice of all the other officers and reconnaissance.

                        There's better threads to be perused than one dominated by a blinkered, wannabe saviour.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                      FWIW, Giftys, what you're looking for isn't going to happen here or at any other
                      forum on the Internet. The reason is simple.

                      Where do you draw the line? What words can you say and can't say? If you
                      attempt to rule with an iron hand, ultimately what would happen is that you'd
                      have very few members left.

                      The Internet, for good or bad, is the one place where people can really let down
                      their hair. They don't have to be polite. You're a stranger to them. They're
                      probably never meet you within their life span. So it's no skin off their nose to
                      call you an idiot if you say something that they think makes you sound like an
                      idiot.

                      True bullying I have never seen here and I've been in this forum for 7 years
                      going on 8 soon. What I see constantly is rudeness and the kind of outspoken-
                      ness that you just don't see in the "real" world, in most places.

                      Welcome to the Internet. It's not going to change.

                      Until I started coming to forums I was the most polite person in the world.
                      Three months at this place turned me into as big a jerk as anybody else.
                      Sometimes you do it just out of survival instincts. Otherwise, some of the
                      language here can eat you up alive if you have a thin skin, something I was
                      born with. That's why I mostly stay away from this place these days. I have
                      no time or stomach for the drama anymore.

                      Wanna hang out at some great polite forums? Go to Steinberg's Cubase or
                      Soundsonline. The problem with those places is that the traffic is almost
                      non existent. Nobody really cares enough to spend a lot of time there. Of
                      course unlike a lot of people here who seem to spend more time chatting
                      than working on their business, the members of those forums are spending
                      most of their time working on their music and only come around when they
                      have a real problem.

                      It's a whole new world over there. I have yet to have anything even close
                      to an argument at either of those forums. Finale's as well. Wonderful places
                      with wonderfully polite people and threads that, if you're lucky, get one or
                      two responses a day.

                      This forum is very popular, it attracts a lot of different people and because
                      it's focused on making money, which is essentially the most important thing
                      for survival, it can get very heated in here.

                      And as much as you'd like to change that so that when somebody says to
                      another member "You're an idiot" they get booted out of here on their ass,
                      it's not going to happen.

                      My suggestion to you, and take it for what it's worth, is to memorize the
                      "Serenity Prayer" and apply it to this forum.

                      You'll save yourself a lot of grief in the process.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Giftys
                        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                        Giftys, what you're looking for isn't going to happen here or at any other
                        forum on the Internet.
                        It's already happened Steven. Thanks
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                        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                          Since it was referenced several times in this discussion, I think it's appropriate to note that the signature Giftys has now has nothing in common with the one that people mentioned earlier.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

      Giftys it may help if you give a concrete example.

      Some of your comments on this thread were negative, pushy, being a jerk, unhelpful, etc. You did it several times. So some people may see you as the bully here.

      But you keep trying to explain without explaining anything. Give an example so we can all get on the same page for the sake of the community.

      Mark
      Mark ... she/he has made nothing but vague accusations from the start. She/He doesn't have concrete examples, so she/he posts unrelated Youtube videos or makes references to spousal abuse and rape ... none of which relate in any way to this forum.

      Some people interpret any dialogue that they don't want to hear as bullying. They're really not adult enough to engage in discussions on a forum for adults with a diverse range of personalities and opinions.

      Then there's some who always enjoy playing the victim, whether they are or not. I read a lot of threads and when someone is being an all round jackass, I report it. If I'm right, the post disappears. It's simple. I have seen pretty much zero tolerance for the real a$$holes on this forum and if they don't get pummeled by the members, they get a forum vacation or their posts removed by the mods.

      I've seen plenty of examples of real cyber bullying and that does not exist here. The real cases make the news fairly frequently with teens and young adults committing suicide over it or bringing a weapon to school and blowing as many people away as possible.

      Do you really think that actual bullying would be tolerated for a moment here? I've seen a few attempts here at bullying by some from another forum. They don't last 5 minutes here. Some people just have to have their soapbox, whether or not there's any basis in reality for their outrage.


      Quote:
      Originally Posted by MikeFriedman View Post

      You have clearly demonstrated nothing.

      You are just trolling at this point.

      [Gifty] You starting to feel threatened Mike? Yea... you can identify with a lot of what I've said huh? Everybody watch this one. He's a real gunslinger!
      The above is probably an example of what "Gifty" feels is bullying. lol. All I can say is ... go home and get Mom to change your diaper.

      And here's a thread where he calls someone out as a bully.
      http://www.warriorforum.com/adsense-...ml#post8604630

      I read the thread, as much as it pains me to read the SEO forum at all, and there was NO bullying... nothing more than the usual actors there with strong opinions and egos.

      My impression is the same as MikeFriedman .... Troll.
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      • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
        Okay, after re-reading this thread this morning with fresh eyes, I've come to the conclusion that what we have here is someone who has presented an imaginary bullying problem, and congratulated him/herself for raising awareness about it.

        I just have to laugh though because what he/she has actually done is quite the opposite of her/his intentions and has raised awareness that our wonderful community has no bullying problem.

        It reminds me of my three year old grandson insisting he fit a square block into a round hole by balancing the block by a corner over the round hole and makes me conclude that he/she has the logic of a three year old.






        Terra
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Suzanne,

        Thanks. The live example we kept asking him for.

        Unless there's a lot of history between the two prior to that thread, I can see why Giftys didn't want to give an example of what he considers bullying. Mike A can be more direct than is comfortable for some people, and he can get downright nasty with his "regular foes," but there's nothing in that exchange that I'd even classify as aggressive, much less "bullying."

        Abrupt and mildly abrasive, perhaps.

        That is the perfect cap to the purpose I mentioned earlier. One could hardly ask for a better example to complete the lesson.


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
          The town I live in is now officially out of popcorn, are there any towns with Warriors in them that can donate popcorn to my area?
          Signature

          Wibble, bark, my old man's a mushroom etc...

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          • Profile picture of the author ronrule
            Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

            The town I live in is now officially out of popcorn, are there any towns with Warriors in them that can donate popcorn to my area?
            You can buy some here, and help out my son's boy scout troop at the same time

            Trail's End Popcorn
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            • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
              Originally Posted by ronrule View Post

              You can buy some here, and help out my son's boy scout troop at the same time

              Trail's End Popcorn
              Good grief - Sour cream and onion popcorn? Bacon, Jalapeno, buffalo cheddar?

              We're behind the times here I think.

              You can tell your son I'll be making a purchase as soon as I get home, if they ship it to England.

              I think the only stuff I've ever had is salted, sweet or covered in toffee.
              Signature

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              • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

                Good grief - Sour cream and onion popcorn? Bacon, Jalapeno, buffalo cheddar?

                We're behind the times here I think.

                You can tell your son I'll be making a purchase as soon as I get home, if they ship it to England.

                I think the only stuff I've ever had is salted, sweet or covered in toffee.
                Be still my heart!

                What? You've never had cheesy popcorn?

                Oh, you haven't even started livin', lol!

                Terra
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                • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                  Wow. All I can say is that Paul Myers handles these arguments...well...like a leader. Whether he thinks he's a leader or not, he acts like one.

                  And he really really knows his Superhero mythology. Which is a big plus.

                  Claude "I suck up to one person a day. It's my new goal" Whitacre




                  WWCD
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                  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                    And he really really knows his Superhero mythology. Which is a big plus.
                    It's his strongest point :p
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                • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
                  Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                  Be still my heart!

                  What? You've never had cheesy popcorn?

                  Oh, you haven't even started livin', lol!

                  Terra
                  yummy!
                  ooooh cheesy popcorn!!!

                  make that any popcorn!

                  Signature
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              • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                Banned
                Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

                Good grief - Sour cream and onion popcorn? Bacon, Jalapeno, buffalo cheddar?
                Nah ... I'm awaiting the invention/arrival of that nice "lobster thermidor popcorn" (now there's a niche for someone) ... :confused: :p
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                • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                  Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                  Nah ... I'm awaiting the invention/arrival of that nice "lobster thermidor popcorn" (now there's a niche for someone) ... :confused: :p
                  Pairs well with a nice bowl of cauliflower soup!
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        • Profile picture of the author nik0
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          Unless there's a lot of history between the two prior to that thread, I can see why Giftys didn't want to give an example of what he considers bullying. Mike A can be more direct than is comfortable for some people, and he can get downright nasty with his "regular foes," but there's nothing in that exchange that I'd even classify as aggressive, much less "bullying."
          So we can be down right nasty as long as we remain polite (no cursing and such)?
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          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
            Banned
            Originally Posted by nik0 View Post

            So we can be down right nasty as long as we remain polite (no cursing and such)?
            I guess you've never bothered to report a post or you would have seen that there's a blurb in there that says it's for reporting rude, spam, problematic posts.

            Of course, if half the posts on the WF are censored because of strong personalities and the ordinary little battles than occur, who is going to be the first whiner in here to complain about censorship?

            Those who can't debate with a diverse range of people without getting their wittle feelings hurt have no business on any forum.

            As for me, I like reading a diverse range of opinions, whether I agree or not. I would find it excruciatingly boring here if everyone agreed. It's actually pretty rare that I find a post rude enough to report as rude. I enjoy a spirited debate.
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          • Profile picture of the author ronrule
            Originally Posted by nik0 View Post

            So we can be down right nasty as long as we remain polite (no cursing and such)?
            F you, sir.
            :p
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          • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
            Originally Posted by nik0 View Post

            So we can be down right nasty as long as we remain polite (no cursing and such)?
            You better don't. LOL

            -----------------------------------

            On a serious note nik0 -maybe you can help:
            http://www.warriorforum.com/offline-...ss-needed.html
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              nik0,
              So we can be down right nasty as long as we remain polite (no cursing and such)?
              I wouldn't say 'polite' so much as 'civil.' You don't have to be nice. You do have to stay within the bounds of reasonable civility.

              Ken,
              It's time we started banning people for passive-aggressiveness.
              Believe it, I've considered that option more than once recently.


              Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
    Seriously... how can you continue on this rant when just about a week ago you made the wild accusation that another member probably beats their wife? How are you making this a better place posting crap like that?

    Your conduct is as bad as anyone's I've seen here lately.
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  • Profile picture of the author Giftys
    Bully Definitions:

    1. Bullying may be defined as the activity of repeated, aggressive behavior intended to hurt another person, physically or mentally.
    2. A person who is habitually cruel or overbearing, especially to smaller or weaker people.
    3. one habitually cruel to others who are weaker.
    4. a blustering, quarrelsome, overbearing person who habitually badgers and intimidates smaller or weaker people.

    Key words: habitual, aggressive behavior, cruel, intimidate

    In the following example/articel, it references the differing opinions on "bullying" and seeks to dial it in. I've bolded the ones that would particularly apply to the online world where physical contact can't happen:

    "The definition of bullying that makes sense to me comes from the psychologists who study it: they say bullying is physical or verbal abuse that occurs repeatedly and involves a power imbalance. In other words, it’s one [person], using social power, or physical strength, to dominate another in a way that really makes the target miserable. Defined in this way, bullying is worth taking seriously because it’s linked, for victims and for kids who are both bullies and victims, to a range of bad outcomes."

    Source: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...efine-bullying
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    WWJD

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  • Profile picture of the author Giftys
    I'll probably get banned for that one. Ha-ha!
    Signature

    WWJD

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    • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
      Originally Posted by Giftys View Post

      I'll probably get banned for that one. Ha-ha!
      Hmmm,

      Probably not, but if you did, it wouldn't break my heart.

      Rabble-rousers never find a way in there, (my heart, that is) it seems.

      By the way, rabble-rouser ~ noun ~ a person who stirs up the passions or prejudices of the public, usually for his or her own interests; demagogue.

      Demagogue ~ a leader who tries to get support by making false claims and promises and using arguments based on emotion rather than reason.

      It fits as you certainly seem to be leading (or at least trying to lead) the crusade to abolish bullies. It's evident in your posts and your sig combined.

      Terra
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      • Profile picture of the author Giftys
        Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

        you certainly seem to be leading the crusade to abolish bullies. It's evident in your posts and your sig combined.
        Thanks, you're very perceptive. Ha-ha! I don't expect to abolish the bullies in here. I only expect to raise awareness. I've accomplished that whether you like it or not.
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        WWJD

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        • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
          Originally Posted by Giftys View Post

          Thanks, you're very perceptive. Ha-ha! I don't expect to abolish the bullies in here. I only expect to raise awareness. I've accomplished that whether you like it or not.
          You're entitled to your opinion. :p

          Terra
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  • Profile picture of the author Giftys
    It's interesting to me, and very telling, how not one person that has debated this issue has talked about how this forum could improve if it did not tolerate overly-aggressive behavior within. It reminds me of those that consistently and continually trash the new healthcare law, never once mentioning the benefit that it provides (affordable healthcare) to millions of low income Americans (particularly). I believe so many are blinded by their own stubbornness. Their pride trumps their compassion such as in the case in here where I am simply speaking up for the victims of these tyrants (the forum bullies).
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  • Profile picture of the author joseph7384
    I've been following this thread and while carefully crafting a well thought out contribution to the discussion, I have come to the conclusion that I cannot add anything of any value and I am now left with this.


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  • Profile picture of the author Ron Douglas
    Liking cat pictures on Facebook would be more enjoyable than reading through this nonsense. Probably a better use of time as well. Add this to the list of reasons for the question in the OP.
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    • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
      to the OP - I don't think the popularity of this forum has been affected - because I still see huge numbers logging in here - but I think the atmosphere has changed because many older members are gone - or they are flying under the radar, or just simply too busy with RL.

      There are a lot of new people though - hence all the familiar questions in the main forum.
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  • Profile picture of the author garyv
    Like was explained before, the term "bully" is very subjective. What you may see as bullying, others may see as lively debate. Your background, upbringing, and culture play a large part in what you may think bullying means.

    For example - I have many Italians in my family. They are loud and aggressive, and if you weren't use to hearing it, you'd swear that they hate each other. But that couldn't be further from the truth.

    What I'm really trying to get at gifty, is you must have a pampered upbringing. There's no shame in that. You have a grammy that still makes you warm cookies and rubs your tummy. No shame in that game. I love grammy's warm cookies. And I also love the tummy rubs and grammy smooches. So I can understand how hard it is to come into a forum where no one wants to rub your tummy. It's rough! Now that I think about it... I'm with you gifty. I think Paul should ban anyone that doesn't want to rub my belly! You non belly rubbing bullies!
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  • Profile picture of the author Mogly
    Way too much spam/junk etc.

    They need to charge a monthly fee -- get rid of all the people not wanting to actually learn.
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  • Profile picture of the author travlinguy
    Since no one has defined Bully, I thought I'd give it a shot. Everyone knows a bully has two big horns and a wooly jaw.

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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Everyone knows a bully has two big horns and a wooly jaw.
      Hmmm... By that definition, HD really is a bully!
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      • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Hmmm... By that definition, HD really is a bully!

        You were brave enough to get close enough to him to determine that his jaw was wooly?

        What great courage you have! :p

        Terra
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      • Profile picture of the author Horny Devil
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Hmmm... By that definition, HD really is a bully!
        Hmmm . . . Exhibits strong overtones of adoxography throughout the thread, then lowers the standards by putting HD in a state of mulligrubs, likening being ulotrichous around the jawbone and in possession of the Netherworld's standard issue horns, to the characteristics of a bully.

        As you're already partly qualified in the facial department, I have therefore reserved you a place amongst my minions. See you on the other side.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    Sorry to interupt the "bully pulpit", but here's another reason the "popularity" of the WF may have dropped.

    Many people with IM product launches are no longer posting them as WSOs and are posting them on their own sites instead. While this saves them $40, the biggest reason is that a single troll posting on a WSO thread can derail the launch. By posting their launches on their own pages, they don't have to worry about what comments are posted.

    This would mean that some affiliates are no longer driving traffic to WSO pages, which would result in a drop in traffic to the WF.
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    • Profile picture of the author sweepnet
      I am new to posting, but have been checking in for a while. I also read a lot of the WSOs.

      I agree there always seems to be a negative poster running down the WSO. It is a turn off. I can see if there are fewer WSO people arent checking the rest of the forum
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      Sorry to interupt the "bully pulpit", but here's another reason the "popularity" of the WF may have dropped.

      Many people with IM product launches are no longer posting them as WSOs and are posting them on their own sites instead. While this saves them $40, the biggest reason is that a single troll posting on a WSO thread can derail the launch. By posting their launches on their own pages, they don't have to worry about what comments are posted.

      This would mean that some affiliates are no longer driving traffic to WSO pages, which would result in a drop in traffic to the WF.
      I was thinking of this as well, with all the BWMs all over the Internet on this.
      Still, it seems a little half-baked to me when marketers can't handle the trolls
      effectively? Online or off, isn't that an important part of a compete plan?

      But then I've never put out a WSO, so perhaps I should keep my dog
      out of that fight.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
        Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

        I was thinking of this as well, with all the BWMs all over the Internet on this.
        Still, it seems a little half-baked to me when marketers can't handle the trolls
        effectively? Online or off, isn't that an important part of a compete plan?

        But then I've never put out a WSO, so perhaps I should keep my dog
        out of that fight.
        4 or 5 years ago I posted a WSO for a software product. A buyer posted that it gave him a virus.

        I checked and checked and couldn't find anything that would cause a virus alert.

        A few days later, the guy posted that he had made a mistake and said "sorry". Too late, he already destroyed the WSO.

        Also, some of the product launchers may deserve a few of the negative comments they get. Others say "why bother?" There are postives and negatives to allowing comments, but allowing comments on a sales letter which you don't control is something to think about...not all comments are from unbiased customers and there's always a jealous competitor to worry about.
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
          Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

          4 or 5 years ago I posted a WSO for a software product. A buyer posted that it gave him a virus.

          I checked and checked and couldn't find anything that would cause a virus alert.

          A few days later, the guy posted that he had made a mistake and said "sorry". Too late, he already destroyed the WSO.

          Also, some of the product launchers may deserve a few of the negative comments they get. Others say "why bother?" There are postives and negatives to allowing comments, but allowing comments on a sales letter which you don't control is something to think about...not all comments are from unbiased customers and there's always a jealous competitor to worry about.
          Hmm, yeah competitors are one thing, but I have no idea how I would
          handle the "virus" accusation on a salespage, either.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sleaklight
    With the WF showing up as installing Malware on visitors to this site, it's bound to drop in traffic and popularity. Don't believe me? google Warriorforum.com and right on the listing it says This site may harm your computer.

    I'd get that fix.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
      Originally Posted by Sleaklight View Post

      With the WF showing up as installing Malware on visitors to this site, it's bound to drop in traffic and popularity. Don't believe me? google Warriorforum.com and right on the listing it says This site may harm your computer.

      I'd get that fix.
      http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...-warnings.html
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      Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

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    • Profile picture of the author joseph7384
      Originally Posted by Sleaklight View Post

      With the WF showing up as installing Malware on visitors to this site, it's bound to drop in traffic and popularity. Don't believe me? google Warriorforum.com and right on the listing it says This site may harm your computer.

      I'd get that fix.

      This thread has nothing to do with the warnings and was created before these warnings started.

      Lets stay on topic!
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  • Profile picture of the author Tim_Carter
    I have noticed that there are a lot less - like 2/3 less people in the main and WSO forums (according to the currently viewing counter on those threads) every time I log in.

    I must admit my visits are scarce here. Used to be a lot more good knowledge being passed around. I'm now spending more time here in the basement.
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  • Profile picture of the author RobinInTexas
    Just curious how important is the WSO forum compared to the rest of the forums?

    My personal opinion is that the rest of the forums are more beneficial than the WSOs as far as the information available goes.
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    ...Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just set there.
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  • Profile picture of the author ronrule
    Are you guys kidding? The WSO forum is more active than ever ... you used to be able to pay for a WSO and it would stay on page one for days ... now you're lucky if you are still on page two in 24 hours.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
      Originally Posted by ronrule View Post

      Are you guys kidding? The WSO forum is more active than ever ... you used to be able to pay for a WSO and it would stay on page one for days ... now you're lucky if you are still on page two in 24 hours.
      No, I'm not kidding. It only takes a couple of product creators with a good list of super affiliates not to post WSOs and the potential is a loss of 1000s of visitors a day. And the simple fact is, with JV Zoo not requiring a launch to be an WSO, there are people not posting their products as WSOs.

      I've posted WSOs since 2002. I probably know as well as anyone how things have changed over the years. And for the first time in over a decade, I didn't post my last product launch as a WSO.

      Just because a WSO is off page 1 quickly, doesn't mean a few of the big product creators are no longer sending traffic. It's entirely possible there are more WSOs, but they result in less affiliate traffic. An increase in the number of WSO threads does NOT mean increased traffic, assuming there is actually an increase of WSOs posted compared to a year ago.

      Plus, there's likely more than one cause that the WF may have had a drop in traffic. Another possibility is a Google algo change, as well as some of the suggestions above.
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      • Profile picture of the author ronrule
        Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

        No, I'm not kidding. It only takes a couple of product creators with a good list of super affiliates not to post WSOs and the potential is a loss of 1000s of visitors a day. And the simple fact is, with JV Zoo not requiring a launch to be an WSO, there are people not posting their products as WSOs.

        I've posted WSOs since 2002. I probably know as well as anyone how things have changed over the years. And for the first time in over a decade, I didn't post my last product launch as a WSO.

        Just because a WSO is off page 1 quickly, doesn't mean a few of the big product creators are no longer sending traffic. It's entirely possible there are more WSOs, but they result in less affiliate traffic. An increase in the number of WSO threads does NOT mean increased traffic, assuming there is actually an increase of WSOs posted compared to a year ago.

        Plus, there's likely more than one cause that the WF may have had a drop in traffic. Another possibility is a Google algo change, as well as some of the suggestions above.
        Oh, ok I see what you're saying - it seems there are more WSO's now, but you're right that doesn't necessarily mean more eyeballs.

        I can offer an opinion based on one of my own recent experiences. I did a dimesale for the first time a couple days ago (took a $47 product, capped it at $27, and started it as a $7 dime sale). It had a ton of sales out of the gate and was in the top ten on Warrior+, shooting up to the $27 cap within a couple of hours. The problem was the majority of the posts in the thread were complaints from people who didn't get in while it was in the $7 - $9 range. Things like that are very disruptive... the advantage of using the forum previously was that if you produce something that's good and people praise it, it reinforces more buyers. But now there's a new class of member who asks irrelevant questions, and posts comments that have nothing to do with the product or their opinion of it, they're whining about price? I mean, if you don't like the price, don't buy it, you know? Stuff like that makes me want to lean more towards using my own launch page in the future.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          Ron -

          I agree about the ridiculous questions/comments in the WSO section but you are talking about changes over the past year.

          Many of us have seen far more drastic changes in the past 5-10 years. WSOs used to be free to run - they were usually the launch special of a new product available on the internet - they were often limited time specials - they didn't run forever but for 3 weeks max and sometimes good only for a few hours or one day.

          A WSO offer was a few paragraphs describing the product and the offer - not the huge sales pages listed today with income claims and folderol and images.

          There were times in the past when anyone could post a WSO - times when you had to have a certain number of posts before you could run a WSO - and then the fees were added a while back.

          You work with what works for you and if it stops working you don't use it. Many of the top marketers who used to launch every product as WSO first...no longer do it. For some, the sales generated aren't worth the constant barrage of ridiculous questions/comments/complaints.

          In my view, the affiliate programs were the downfall of the WSO section. That's only MY perspective. From a purely profit perspective, the WSO section is bigger than ever.

          The WSO section used to be a good testing and launch pad for new products - now it's mostly a closed system of made-for-WSO sales pages. Not bad - not good - just different.
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          • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
            Originally Posted by ronrule View Post

            Are you guys kidding? The WSO forum is more active than ever ... you used to be able to pay for a WSO and it would stay on page one for days ... now you're lucky if you are still on page two in 24 hours.
            I've only ran three WSO's in all my time here so I'm no expert on them, but the most recent one which I first posted one month ago tomorrow, stayed on the front page much longer than the previous two. The previous one before that was a couple years ago, but in comparing those two WSO's it seems to me things have slowed down some.
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            • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
              Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

              I've only ran three WSO's in all my time here so I'm no expert on them, but the most recent one which I first posted one month ago tomorrow, stayed on the front page much longer than the previous two. The previous one before that was a couple years ago, but in comparing those two WSO's it seems to me things have slowed down some.
              not too long ago a wso went from page one to page three in a matter of hours.

              I bumped a wso of mine a a few weeks ago, its only on page 9 now
              last year it would have been page 2 or 300
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        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
          Banned
          Originally Posted by ronrule View Post

          But now there's a new class of member who asks irrelevant questions, and posts comments that have nothing to do with the product or their opinion of it, they're whining about price? I mean, if you don't like the price, don't buy it, you know?
          I don't allow irrelevant comments on my WF Sales pages. The comment has to be from a buyer and it has to be a fair and accurate review or I report it if it's disruptive. I really don't have this problem much, for but example, one a$$ didn't like the way I delivered the product ... separate zip files downloaded through a membership blog rather than one huge download. He ranted and raved when I told him I wasn't going to change it. I just reported his posts and a mod removed them. He was not a customer and by that point, I didn't want him to become one. I don't think the WSO owners do enough monitoring of their listings. Mods do remove disruptive posts.

          No, they will not remove genuine bad feedback stated fairly on the thread, but they will remove disruptive posts from non-customers.
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
    Warrior Special Offers

    I think the 'special' left the station a long time ago. Now I mostly just see offers. There was a time when nearly everything really was some kind of special offer. Prices were discounted from the same offer being sold elsewhere. Other times something was released in the WSO section at a deep discount for a limited time before being released to the masses elsewhere.

    Instead now you have people who build their entire online business around selling in the WSO section. They have no sustainable business outside of the WF. There are WSO's and mastermind groups entirely devoted to selling WSO's.

    I don't think that was the original intention of the WSO section, but it has evolved into that.

    Some would argue that is a good thing. Others will say it is a bad thing. I don't really have an opinion. It is just my observation.
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  • Profile picture of the author johnben1444
    Originally Posted by nik0 View Post

    No offense but I only see a small group of people being active in this section specifically and for the rest it's a whole lot of spam and the same questions being repeated 24/7

    Is (at least) this section slowly dieing?
    Hey Niko, less SEO clients right?

    Start a thread like this and you will see all the old timers responding because this is their demography. :p

    Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

    Been thinking the same. A lot of regulars over the years have left and the new posters seem to be relatively new to SEO.

    Don't underestimate how many people have given up due to Penguin and Panda updates. Rather than evolve and even adopt a little white hat they have instead chosen to bail out.
    I think this is a good one..

    People should learn to always see possibility in the impossibility.
    As far as am concern, there is no impossibility and the updates have made it pretty much better, less competitive and easy to rank.

    Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

    Let's put it this way...

    MissTerraTalksAlot ventures into the main forum, reads countless posts and has nothing to say.
    Miss Terra, after reading your post i fell off my chair and broke my arm.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Here are some other factors that have influenced total traffic stats. (I don't know how much, as I don't really pay attention to those numbers.)

      We went to a paid membership for all new accounts for a while.

      We disallowed certain types of ads (including some of the most popular types), and asked a few other sellers with issues to find another marketplace.

      We switched to nofollow, which has driven out a lot of the link spammers.

      We installed a blocklist to keep out known forum spammers.

      Other policy stuff that's smaller, but adds up.

      Then there's the regular database errors and slowdowns. That takes a very real toll.

      The biggest factor that is largely out of our control is the significant influx of non-spammy posters whose English is so bad it's often difficult or impossible to make out what they're trying to say.

      Not sure what to do about that last one.

      Just as an FYI: In the past 46 hours, we've added 4364 posts that were not deleted as spam. That would obviously be higher if we hadn't had the security alert issue for 17 or more hours.
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Here are some other factors that have influenced total traffic stats. (I don't know how much, as I don't really pay attention to those numbers.)

        We went to a paid membership for all new accounts for a while.

        We disallowed certain types of ads (including some of the most popular types), and asked a few other sellers with issues to find another marketplace.

        We switched to nofollow, which has driven out a lot of the link spammers.

        We installed a blocklist to keep out known forum spammers.

        Other policy stuff that's smaller, but adds up.

        Then there's the regular database errors and slowdowns. That takes a very real toll.

        The biggest factor that is largely out of our control is the significant influx of non-spammy posters whose English is so bad it's often difficult or impossible to make out what they're trying to say.

        Not sure what to do about that last one.

        Just as an FYI: In the past 46 hours, we've added 4364 posts that were not deleted as spam. That would obviously be higher if we hadn't had the security alert issue for 17 or more hours.

        I don't know what half of that means, haha

        As for the translation issue, hmm... None of my forums are nearly
        as busy as the WF, but I use PoEdit and have volunteers make
        translations for all of the important things, including an
        encouragement to use the built-in page translator from the
        Chrome browser.

        Really I don't know if that would work very well for the WF
        because there are just too many people, but perhaps something
        along those lines-- on a larger scale?-- could be developed?
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      • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


        The biggest factor that is largely out of our control is the significant influx of non-spammy posters whose English is so bad it's often difficult or impossible to make out what they're trying to say.

        Not sure what to do about that last one.
        Rosetta Stone and a AFF account comes to mind ...
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      • Profile picture of the author yukon
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        We switched to nofollow, which has driven out a lot of the link spammers.
        Thank you for everyone involved that made that happen.

        It's just irritating to see comments with forum sigs. like cheap apartments.
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    • Profile picture of the author nik0
      Banned
      Originally Posted by johnben1444 View Post

      Hey Niko, less SEO clients right?

      Start a thread like this and you will see all the old timers responding because this is their demography. :p
      Yep, less new clients
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        On the topic of the forum running an affiliate platform, I just remembered one of the many reasons that hasn't happened. It's relevant to several points here.

        As it stands now, Allen gets a flat fee for each ad. Post a WSO? $40. Bump it? $40. Doesn't matter if the thing sells 2 copies or 2000. It's the same fee for everyone, every time.

        Put in an affiliate platform, and everything changes. That would create the appearance of a financial incentive to give people who sell in large volumes more "leeway" within the rules.

        That's not the biggest reason (can you say, "Headaches?"), but it's the one I would be most concerned about. No amount of doing the right thing would stop people from using that as a basis for making claims of impropriety, and it would not be unreasonable for folks to give them some credence.


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    • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
      Originally Posted by johnben1444 View Post

      Miss Terra, after reading your post i fell off my chair and broke my arm.
      Oh my! I'm Terra-bully sorry for that. :p

      You could let me set it for you! <insert evil smiley>

      Terra
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  • Profile picture of the author DubDubDubDot
    Having considered this issue more closely, it probably goes beyond my first post in the thread (though that is somewhat of an issue). The following is my new theory, with some evidence.

    The growth spurt of this forum is likely attributed to MMO sellers using the WSO section as a hub to sell products whether it's their own or as affiliates. When you've got that much traffic being directed to WSOs from other sites or lists, that's going to bring a steady stream of new members and traffic in general. I have no idea what % of new members came from that, but I assume it's significant. And the WSO board always has more current viewers than the main forum. So we know that board is vital.

    I think looking forward the WSO board is at risk of being rendered something between unnecessary and obsolete. With that comes a decline in active users since the mechanism that introduces many new members is scaled back. The business model of selling or affiliating with MMO products without a WSO or Clickbank seems to be there now with services like JVzoo. The WSO marketplace not having its own affiliate platform combined with third party platforms moving away from WSOs could be a real problem for the WarriorForum ecosystem.


    Here's something really interesting...

    Look at the Google Trends link again
    Google Trends

    Something happened in late 2011. That may have been the emergence of JVzoo.

    Click the "marketplace" link on JVzoo in Oct, Nov and Dec.
    https://web.archive.org/web/20110315...tp://jvzoo.com

    As the offers ramp up, Warrior Froum's trends graph goes down.

    So there was probably an initial group of marketers that jumped on board JVzoo (thus not talking about WSOs as much) and things stay steady in the trends graph for about a half year. Then something else happens.

    This is the post where affiliate links in WSOs got banned
    http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...r-sellers.html

    That matches up with the next downward trend. You could say that people know where the affiliate links are at, but do they really? Can they be bothered to go look if it's not right in front of them? Perhaps not.

    It seems as though the movement away from WSO affiliation has possibly played a role.
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    • Profile picture of the author ronrule
      Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

      Look at the Google Trends link again
      Google Trends

      Something happened in late 2011. That may have been the emergence of JVzoo.

      Click the "marketplace" link on JVzoo in Oct, Nov and Dec.
      https://web.archive.org/web/20110315...tp://jvzoo.com

      As the offers ramp up, Warrior Froum's trends graph goes down.
      Also keep in mind that the 'Trends' link pertains to SEARCHES FOR WarriorForum, not traffic, users, or signups.

      How many of us who are already here are still searching for the site? Usually we just go to it.

      If everyone in the WORLD signed up, the trend that followed would be downward because they wouldn't still be searching for it. So showing a downward trend in the number of searches for the forum by name doesn't necessarily symbolize a downward trend in users.

      That said, I do think that "internet marketing" has a generally more negative value perception than it did 5 years ago. I remember telling people what I did for a living in 2005 and it was perceived as something really cool/something to aspire to. Now I don't dare refer to myself as a "marketer" ... there's a negative connotation there and an instant perception that you're one of the bottom feeders of the Internet trying to line your pockets from unsuspecting users by selling crappy info products. The classic "squeeze page" with big red headline and bold text that worked so well in 2005 now only works on a certain class of people - and is an immediate turn-off for the masses. That didn't used to be the case, but I think years of scams and bad info products made it that way.

      I don't think that's specific to WarriorForum ... DigitalPoint and Webmasterworld seem to have much lower levels of interaction as well. Meanwhile Facebook groups seem to have ever-increasing engagement levels (at least for now). I wonder if the classic forum style itself is in decline.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    If it's the spammers, scammers, etc. leaving then lower numbers are good.

    If it's genuine people needing/wanting to make their lives better who have been turned off by the forum's "persona" maybe that's bad.

    If it's the same genuine people that have lost the dream entirely then that's more of an "industry" problem - how things are presented, value given for the price, etc. combined with laziness, ignorance, fear, procrastination, etc. on the part of the user.

    It's an interesting exercise to go back, even a couple years, and look through some of the active users and see when is the last time they participated or even visited. What happened to them? Thousands of them. The same goes for email if you keep emails like I do. Go back a couple years and see what the then up and coming gurus wrote in their emails and compare with if they are even around today. You'll find a lot of parked domain signs.

    I have to say that, IF popularity is down overall, and IF it's the kind of down that's bad, then many people have been warning (otherwise called whining) about this.

    Two typical conversations have happened hundreds of times here: Poster 1: "But I think if I say the server was overloaded or that there was an error in the email JUST for the sake of sending another email, this is wrong and unethical and we shouldn't do it". Poster 2: "Do what works! You want to make the big bucks, you do what the guys making the big bucks are doing! Don't question success! Work on your own business and quit worrying about what others are doing! If you don't like it then hit the unsubscribe button! You aren't your customer so even though you hate it others are buying through that tactic." Then if Poster 1 further questions this, he's many, many, many times called a whiner, hater, lazy, troll, etc. Of course that happens on many different topics.

    The other conversation is the hundreds talking about cleaning up certain areas of the forum. In every case - every case the bottom line answer is that there is nothing that can be done. The WF is innocent just like a newspaper and buyer beware. The buyer needs to his own research. Etc. Without saying what has already been said before about cleanup, I think if there's been a downturn, it's been coming partly due to this. And if there's not a downturn, there will be one in the future one way or the other, sooner or later I believe.

    As far as WSOs from a seller's standpoint, besides the things mentioned above, the $7 mindset is killing a lot of sellers. Yes I know you need a funnel. And yes I know there are some that can charge proper fees. But the great, great majority can't. Think about one of the most spammed/mentioned, most loved membership sites - Chris Farrell (no affiliation whatsoever). He seems to do pretty well at $37 a month. Many of the WSO buyers/visitors wouldn't buy a 1x fee of $37 much less every month from a WSO. But many would pay that outside a WSO. So the expectations are lots of value (transcriptions, 24/7 service, 1-1 coaching, no OTOs or upsells of any kind, video and PDFs, pretty sales graphics, lifetime updates) for low low cost. That model, except for a few sellers, is not sustainable and doesn't provide them with an income situation they can live with.

    I know one thing that would greatly increase its popularity - a responsive/mobile theme for Vbulletin where you could easily log in and have all the other desktop type features.

    Mark
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
      Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post


      I know one thing that would greatly increase its popularity - a responsive/mobile theme for Vbulletin where you could easily log in and have all the other desktop type features.

      Mark
      Yes, perhaps half the time I spend on the Internet these days is on my phone,
      so I would troll the WF more often if it were easier.
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      • Profile picture of the author waterotter
        Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

        Yes, perhaps half the time I spend on the Internet these days is on my phone,
        so I would troll the WF more often if it were easier.
        You admit to being a troll?

        Where's Paul when you need him? Oops....very likely patrolling the playground looking for bullies:p
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Mike,

        Thanks. The idea of a translator might work, if it was on their machines. Anyone know of a product along those lines that's worth using?

        DubDubDubDot,

        There is definitely a correlation between the rule about promoting affiliate programs within a WSO and the movement of some sellers to other platforms. We knew that was likely to happen when we put the rule in place.

        As for the rest... Maybe, maybe not. It's hard to be certain of some of these things, as there are always secondary and tertiary effects that aren't obvious.

        The WSO traffic actually has relatively little impact on active memberships. THe thing that drove that spike was the switch to vBulletin and the use of some of the SEO features of the software.

        The only noticeable additions due to the WSO section are the "I'm new and wanna run WSO. How I do?" crowd. For the most part, I'd be quite happy to see them go away.
        The WSO marketplace not having its own affiliate platform combined with third party platforms moving away from WSOs could be a real problem for the WarriorForum ecosystem.
        I'm not convinced that's true. It would probably mean less ad revenues in the short term, but I think that's counterbalanced by an increase in ads for products that have more concrete value.

        Hard to say. Consider that we have people in this thread who say WSOs scroll down faster now than before, and others saying they're slower. Who's actually measured that? (Not me, that's for sure...)

        Mark,
        If it's the spammers, scammers, etc. leaving then lower numbers are good.

        If it's genuine people needing/wanting to make their lives better who have been turned off by the forum's "persona" maybe that's bad.
        Plenty of the first, to be sure. The worst was the JV section. About this time last year, Allen and I went on a rampage in there, nuking dozens of accounts and hundreds of threads.

        That was a classic example of the member moderation system at work. One individual who used that section extensively spotted the problems and reported them. And he gave us solid evidence to work with.

        One of those creeps was persistent. Started paying for ads, and screaming when they got nuked. Now he creates new accounts every week or two to PM people with his nonsense. I regularly look for his footprints, so he doesn't get much through.

        The rest just moved on to other pastures.

        Sadly, there's some of the second there, too. Good people getting annoyed by the persistent vicious negativity. I'm about to the point where I'm ready to delete any post that seems more like a complaint than a constructive suggestion.

        Like those posts you mentioned that start off with "I'm sick of the spam! I signed up for this guy's list and all he does is send me offers every day!" (Note the contradiction there...)

        That IS whining, Mark. I don't say it in those threads, but complaining about something you can correct as easily as clicking on a single link one time is not a constructive topic for discussion. Same with the "The evil gurus won't give me free mentoring, so that proves they're heartless moneygrubbing scammers" crap.

        And the threads usually follow the same pattern. They post, someone else says "So just unsubscribe." The OP persists in arguing the point, and becomes invested in the idea that griping is going to somehow change the sender's behavior. It degenerates from there.

        That's the same entitlement mentality that drives the serial refunders, the clueless gits who expect the world for $7 and scream SCAM! when they don't get it, and the blackmailers who post libelous comments in dozens of threads, trying to force sellers to give them things they didn't pay for and don't deserve.

        Of course, nuking those because of the poisonous effect they have on the forum just encourages the folks who think the First Amendment applies to private enclaves. You know... the folks who failed 6th grade civics.

        I'm close to the same point with the barely literate stuff. This is an English language forum. If you can't speak English well enough to make yourself understood, you probably need to find another place for your discussions.
        The other conversation is the hundreds talking about cleaning up certain areas of the forum. In every case - every case the bottom line answer is that there is nothing that can be done.
        "Every case?"

        Ummm... How about the affiliate rule mentioned earlier? Or turning off sig files in the WSO section? Or the JV section cleanup? Or all the ads we've shut down and the sellers we've banned for various reasons, ranging from sketchy to outright fraud?

        The ONLY specific thing for which the answer is always the same is the complaint about income promises. I have personally lobbied for banning them to the point that the folks who make those policies are sick of hearing it, but they see it otherwise. And we're talking actual lawyers, so I'm not qualified to argue the point with them.

        For the rest, it comes down to a simple issue: Show us specifics. Generalizations are useless when you're talking about taking action.

        The classic example is the claim that we delete all negative comments in WSO threads. We delete some, yes, and we're clear about what the standards are for that. If you haven't bought the product, you attack the seller personally, you use excessive vulgarity, or you post in large fonts, they're getting removed if they're reported.

        Remain civil and stick to the product and they stay. Which is definitely a reason some sellers have moved on to other platforms.
        As far as WSOs from a seller's standpoint, besides the things mentioned above, the $7 mindset is killing a lot of sellers.
        Yep. But only the ones who choose to play in that sandbox. There are a few sellers who regularly report posts complaining that the price is too high. And we delete those posts. The rules are posted, and they're very clear on the issue of arguing about the sales process.

        If you want to keep a sales thread clean of the entitlement crowd, it's not that hard to do.
        I know one thing that would greatly increase its popularity - a responsive/mobile theme for Vbulletin where you could easily log in and have all the other desktop type features.
        Allen and I have discussed that. It seems there's a conflict between the add-on that enables that and something else here that he doesn't want to (or can't) remove. I forget what it is, but it made sense when he told me about it.

        Jody,
        You admit to being a troll?
        Trolling. A verb. Contextual definition: to search through (something).
        Where's Paul when you need him? Oops....very likely patrolling the playground looking for bullies
        [ahem] Have I told you today? Have I?

        Consider yourself told, ma'am.

        Dan,

        Really good questions. I don't know the answers, but I'll bet there are people in this thread who do.


        Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    The Google trends seems to follow the economy.
    At least in my slice of the world.

    My hotel revenues have been better during the
    the past year and a half than they have been
    since about 2009.

    Translation: more people working and less people
    looking for alternative income via Internet Marketing.
    And, simply, less people trying to make money online.

    Has there been a significant increase in society of
    people starting offline businesses?

    Have the sub forums related to offline business
    marketing been doing better than other sections
    of the WF?

    Dan
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  • Profile picture of the author technogics
    I don't think so. They are good and and they are popular....
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi Paul,

      This thread should be moved to Main Discussion.

      I remember the 'good old days' when the forum was full of quality threads like this one, instead of all of that boring internet marketing stuff.

      You can't beat a good old-fashioned 'handling passive-aggressive provocation' masterclass, especially one with so many different provocation approaches and techniques being demonstrated which were all so skillfully deflected, defused and rebutted as required.

      You should make this into a WSO

      Cheers!
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Roger,

        Leave it to you to "out" the most useful lesson coming out of that section of the thread.

        Moving it to Main Discussion would have been a mistake. It's not really relevant there, and it would have degenerated into pure bashing too quickly to have served any useful purpose.
        You should make this into a WSO
        [chuckle] Well, a "live case study," anyway.


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Maybe I'm getting old. I'm taking a few minutes to "relax" from a long day, I pop
          by this forum, see this thread, remember I made some comments in it, looked
          at the title and then asked myself "How did this turn into the thread it turned
          into?"

          And then I realized that this is ultimately what happens to almost every thread
          that gets started on this forum.

          Paul, do you remember when I started the thread about amoebas to "prove"
          that I could start a thread that couldn't be turned into a crap storm? If I
          recall correctly, I failed miserably. I don't know how it happened, but somehow
          that thread turned into something controversial.

          And 9 times out of 10, if you look at the threads at this forum over the years
          that get the most activity, they ultimately are ones where somebody said
          something that turned into a train wreck.

          And that's when it finally hit me.

          Human beings love a train wreck. Nobody strains their neck while driving
          down the highway to see a lady petting her dog, but give them a 3 car
          accident on the other side and you'll have traffic backed up for 15 miles.

          This is littered throughout our entertainment. How many cop shows are there?
          I can't help but wonder what the body count on network and cable TV is on
          a weekly basis.

          When you watch the news, what's the story that they lead off with? If there's
          been a murder or some other high profile crime, it's that one.

          In short, nice things bore people. And when you think about it, that's so
          ironic. We say we want peace. But when the crap hits the fan, we're all over
          it.

          I wonder how bored we'd be if there was never any bad news or if every
          conversation at this forum was on the level of...

          Poster A: How do you...(fill in the blank)

          Poster B: Oh, no problem. Just (fill in the blank)

          Poster A: Thank you. I appreciate that

          Poster B: Any time.

          The threads here would, for the most part, resemble the threads that I find
          at most music forums. People are courteous, kind, helpful, and most threads
          run 4 or 5 replies tops, if that.

          There's just no drama.

          Maybe I'm cynical in my old age. But I truly believe that in spite of what
          some claim here, that the WF is losing popularity because of bullies, fighting
          or whatever, I think at the real heart of it, that's the stuff that keeps this
          place from turning into a ghost town.

          Because human beings love drama.

          If you think I'm kidding, turn on the TV.
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          • Profile picture of the author Graham Maddison
            [QUOTE=Steven Wagenheim;8644346]Maybe I'm getting old.
            " Nobody strains their neck while driving
            down the highway to see a lady petting her dog
            "

            Forgive me Steven, but as a 64 year old red blooded male, if the lady in question happens to be wearing skimpy clothes at the time, thats exactly what I do do and then maybe cause a three car pile up in the process.:rolleyes:
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        • Profile picture of the author ExRat
          Hi Dennis,

          @ Graham - I was thinking nearly the same thing.
          I presume, due to your avatar, that you might be checking out the dog too?

          Hi Steven,