Civil liberties or law and order?

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I live on the Gold Coast, the tourism capital of Australia. Tourism here is a multi-billion dollar industry, and most small business owners like restaurants and motel owners depend on it for their livelihood.

Recently there was a huge brawl between rival bikie gangs for control of the lucrative tourist trade on their "turf".

This took place in the main eating area of Broadbeach, where lots of families were enjoying their holiday by having a meal out with their kids.

During the brawl, tables were overturned, chairs were thrown through windows, and fearful restaurant diners had to flee to protect themselves and their children.

This made headline news throughout Australia, and as a result affected the numbers of people choosing to come here for a holiday.

As a result of the brawl, the state government passed several new laws, which are somewhat draconian. A sample:
  • Extra powers for police
  • Bikie-only prison at Woodford, north of Brisbane
  • Mandatory sentences of 15 years for serious crimes committed as part of gang activity, on top of the normal penalty
  • Club office bearers will be sentenced to another 10 years in jail, and parole will only be granted if the offender cooperates with police
  • Convicted bikies subjected to strict drug tests and searches in prison
  • No gym facilities or TV access in jail
  • Phone calls in jail to be monitored, except those relating to legal reps
  • Inmates' mail opened and censored
  • Visitor contact restricted to one hour a week
  • Bikie criminals in other state prisons to be transferred to Woodford
  • Introducing a licensing regime for tattoo parlours and artists, banning bikie gang members
  • Motorcycles to be crushed as punishment for certain crimes

Some serious stuff here, and the civil libertarians are naturally up in arms about it

The lawyer for the Finks motorcycle club says the new laws are a sledgehammer approach and label whole groups as criminals.

"It's got to the point governments can say 'if you look like a criminal - you are a criminal'," he said. He's right of course, but he does have a vested interest - he makes a lot of money from representing the criminals.

The head of the Australian Council for Civil Liberties says Queensland's new anti-bikie laws make the state a laughing stock.

As a result of these new laws, most of the bikie gangs have disbanded, handed in their colours, and moved on.

The Gold Coast is now back to normal, where people can now enjoy their holiday in peace, and the multi billion tourist indistry has been saved.

My question for the forum is this:

Basically, do you think the end justifies the means?
  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    I think in the long run you will find this is not true.
    "As a result of these new laws, most of the bikie gangs have disbanded, handed in their colours, and moved on.

    The Gold Coast is now back to normal, where people can now enjoy their holiday in peace, and the multi billion tourist indistry has been saved."

    All they ahve done is remove the "gang" aspect from the legal system. Now they will just be guys hanging out together.


    I think the laws are way out of line though.
    But then,I know very little about your government system.
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    • Profile picture of the author peter_act
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      All they have done is remove the "gang" aspect from the legal system. Now they will just be guys hanging out together.
      You're right, Kim, and that was the point - remove the gang element. One aspect of the law I didn't mention was the one that compels suspects who own a share in a legitimate business to disclose where they got the money from to invest.

      A lot of small businesses have a bikie part ownership - normally obtained by stand over tactics - "let me invest in your business or we'll close it down".

      Indeed, the very cause of the brawl was because a rival gang had "invested" money into a local restaurant - that's why it was targetted. Local gangs just couldn't have a rival on their lucrative turf.

      But again, you're right - guys just hanging out together can now be targetted by police, even if they have no criminal intent, and that was the point of the civil liberties people.

      However, they are a lone voice in the overwhelming approval of the new measures by ordinary people and tourist operators.

      But - without these new laws, what's the answer to restoring law and order and reclaiming our town? Where are Clint Eastwood, Bruce Willis and Steven Seagal when you need them?
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      • Profile picture of the author KimW
        Originally Posted by peter_act View Post

        You're right, Kim, and that was the point - remove the gang element. One aspect of the law I didn't mention was the one that compels suspects who own a share in a legitimate business to disclose where they got the money from to invest.

        A lot of small businesses have a bikie part ownership - normally obtained by stand over tactics - "let me invest in your business or we'll close it down".

        Indeed, the very cause of the brawl was because a rival gang had "invested" money into a local restaurant - that's why it was targetted. Local gangs just couldn't have a rival on their lucrative turf.

        But again, you're right - guys just hanging out together can now be targetted by police, even if they have no criminal intent, and that was the point of the civil liberties people.

        However, they are a lone voice in the overwhelming approval of the new measures by ordinary people and tourist operators.

        But - without these new laws, what's the answer to restoring law and order and reclaiming our town? Where are Clint Eastwood, Bruce Willis and Steven Seagal when you need them?

        Waiting for Van Damme to show up?
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      • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
        Originally Posted by peter_act View Post

        As a result of these new laws, most of the bikie gangs have disbanded, handed in their colours, and moved on.
        Perhaps that was the intent.

        Originally Posted by peter_act View Post

        A lot of small businesses have a bikie part ownership - normally obtained by stand over tactics - "let me invest in your business or we'll close it down".
        What is meant by "invest" in a business. This almost sounds like mafia type stuff.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          Recently there was a huge brawl between rival bikie gangs for control of the lucrative tourist trade on their "turf".

          This took place in the main eating area of Broadbeach, where lots of families were enjoying their holiday by having a meal out with their kids.

          During the brawl, tables were overturned, chairs were thrown through windows, and fearful restaurant diners had to flee to protect themselves and their children.
          If the main commerce of the area is tourism it means the bad behavior of the bikers damaged the business and income of many small business owners who rely on tourism.

          This is an event that could harm tourism for quite some time UNLESS there was quick, decisive action taken by authorities. The action needs to be strong to balance the negative publicity of the brawl...even though the restrictions may be eased quietly after a time.
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          • Profile picture of the author peter_act
            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            If the main commerce of the area is tourism it means the bad behavior of the bikers damaged the business and income of many small business owners who rely on tourism.

            This is an event that could harm tourism for quite some time UNLESS there was quick, decisive action taken by authorities. The action needs to be strong to balance the negative publicity of the brawl...even though the restrictions may be eased quietly after a time.
            Exactly Kay,

            Tourism is the ONLY commerce of the area. People were cancelling bookings, so something had to be done, quickly and decisively.

            This was the national news bulletin, which was scaring people away from coming to the Gold Coast.

            This was before the new laws were passed. (You'll notice the police minister's name is Jack Dempsey - no wonder he's tough!
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        • Profile picture of the author peter_act
          Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

          What is meant by "invest" in a business. This almost sounds like mafia type stuff.
          Dennis - I think they "made him an offer he couldn't refuse"
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          • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
            Originally Posted by peter_act View Post

            Dennis - I think they "made him an offer he couldn't refuse"
            That's what I thought you meant but wanted to make sure I wasn't reading something into your comment that you didn't intend, give the cultural differences. In that case, I have no sympathy for the biker gang.
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

          Perhaps that was the intent.



          What is meant by "invest" in a business. This almost sounds like mafia type stuff.
          YEP! The MAFIA ****ALSO**** "fight over turf"!

          Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    WELL, if I were king.....


    Extra powers for police

    USUALLY, they have ENOUGH!!!!!

    Bikie-only prison at Woodford, north of Brisbane

    Frankly, that is a BAD IDEA! Throw them in the SAME jail!

    Mandatory sentences of 15 years for serious crimes committed as part of gang activity, on top of the normal penalty

    Maybe give them an EXTRA 5 years, rather than 15. Just make sure the OTHER sentences are similar and fitting to the crime.

    Club office bearers will be sentenced to another 10 years in jail, and parole will only be granted if the offender cooperates with police

    OK

    Convicted bikies subjected to strict drug tests and searches in prison

    CERTAINLY! Actually, ALL should!

    No gym facilities or TV access in jail

    Jail shouldn't have such things!

    Phone calls in jail to be monitored, except those relating to legal reps

    AGAIN, it IS supposed to be jail!

    Inmates' mail opened and censored

    JAIL....

    Visitor contact restricted to one hour a week

    JAIL....

    Bikie criminals in other state prisons to be transferred to Woodford

    Keep them where they ARE!

    Introducing a licensing regime for tattoo parlours and artists, banning bikie gang members

    Frankly, they should restrict a LOT of things for tatoo parlours.

    Motorcycles to be crushed as punishment for certain crimes

    They ARE a symbol of, reason, and facility for many crimes, so SURE!

    Some serious stuff here, and the civil libertarians are naturally up in arms about it

    The lawyer for the Finks motorcycle club says the new laws are a sledgehammer approach and label whole groups as criminals.

    "It's got to the point governments can say 'if you look like a criminal - you are a criminal'," he said. He's right of course, but he does have a vested interest - he makes a lot of money from representing the criminals.

    The head of the Australian Council for Civil Liberties says Queensland's new anti-bikie laws make the state a laughing stock.

    My question for the forum is this:

    Basically, do you think the end justifies the means?
    Well, this SHOULD be a GIVEN!!!!! If they want ore of the trade, let them compete for the TRADE, NOT to exclusivity! If other businesses did this, they would be THROWN IN JAIL!

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    So now you had biker terrorists - later it will be Gov terrorists. As long as you can get rid of the thugs out of office when they start to abuse that law - or have it repealed, you stand a chance. Too bad you guys let them take your guns. Kinda hard to take that kind of advantage of people who can defend themselves.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      So now you had biker terrorists - later it will be Gov terrorists. As long as you can get rid of the thugs out of office when they start to abuse that law - or have it repealed, you stand a chance. Too bad you guys let them take your guns. Kinda hard to take that kind of advantage of people who can defend themselves.
      It turns out that they DO have gov terrorists. But THAT is why I said the police generally have ENOUGH power. Don't give them more because they failed in some respect.

      Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author peter_act
        First test of the new laws:

        Yesterday 10 members of the Brisbane chapter of the Hell's Angels were arrested on charges of trafficking in methamphetamines.

        They included the sergeant-at-arms the secretary-treasurer of the club's Brisbane chapter.

        Their Harley Davidsons and $30,000 in cash have also been seized in the raids.

        Under new laws, if these guys are convicted, even if they get a suspended sentence and ordered to do community work, they will be locked away for an extra 15 years without parole, and as senior members they face an extra 25 years without parole, unless they give police intelligence into the gang's activities.

        Does this mean they get 40 years?

        I must admit I think that's excessive, but I feel the government had to do something to deter the gangs.

        So now I'm confused - do I think the new laws are a good thing, now that the streets are safe again, or do they go too far?

        Also, what do we do about "God's Sqad", a Christian motorcycle club, which reaches out to people on the margins of society, the homeless and disadvantaged. They are an accepted part of the Christian church. I have been to one of their meetings and came away very impressed by what they do.

        Problem is, they wear leather jackets and patches, just like the bikie gangs.

        Could they be picked up, as they probably should be, by the police using their new powers, when they are doing this great work?

        That's the great dilemma - hence my original question to the forum - civil liberties or law and order?
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by peter_act View Post

          First test of the new laws:

          Yesterday 10 members of the Brisbane chapter of the Hell's Angels were arrested on charges of trafficking in methamphetamines.

          They included the sergeant-at-arms the secretary-treasurer of the club's Brisbane chapter.

          Their Harley Davidsons and $30,000 in cash have also been seized in the raids.
          MORE than reasonable!

          Under new laws, if these guys are convicted, even if they get a suspended sentence and ordered to do community work, they will be locked away for an extra 15 years without parole, and as senior members they face an extra 25 years without parole, unless they give police intelligence into the gang's activities.

          Does this mean they get 40 years?

          I must admit I think that's excessive, but I feel the government had to do something to deter the gangs.
          Like I said, I would make it 5 years for the gang, and reasonable lengths elsewhere. This might be 10-15 years. 40 is a bit TOO much, if this is ALL they did.

          So now I'm confused - do I think the new laws are a good thing, now that the streets are safe again, or do they go too far?

          Also, what do we do about "God's Sqad", a Christian motorcycle club, which reaches out to people on the margins of society, the homeless and disadvantaged. They are an accepted part of the Christian church. I have been to one of their meetings and came away very impressed by what they do.

          Problem is, they wear leather jackets and patches, just like the bikie gangs.

          Could they be picked up, as they probably should be, by the police using their new powers, when they are doing this great work?
          NOT the same thing! A GANG is usually defined as a group doing some malevolent or harmful thing. If you think of a gang as merely a collection of people, you might as well lock up families and schools. And you certainly can't just lock up people for biking, or even dressing like a typical biker. So the hells angels are BAD! "Gods squad" probably isn't.

          That's the great dilemma - hence my original question to the forum - civil liberties or law and order?
          NO! The bar needs to get a new name and START ACTING SOBER!!!!!!!! If they don't advocate in a just and sober way, THEY should be thrown in jail. Maybe 20 years plus whatever the greater of the sentence their client got or should have gotten.

          Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author peter_act
            Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

            NOT the same thing! You certainly can't just lock up people for biking, or even dressing like a typical biker. So the hells angels are BAD! "Gods squad" probably isn't.
            Steve
            Fully agree Steve, but it's not my supposition - it's what the Council for Civil Liberties says will happen.
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              Problem is, they wear leather jackets and patches, just like the bikie gangs.
              Don't know - but if they are picked up or raided and they DON'T have meth or huge sums of cash....they'd probably be ok, wouldn't they?

              I think they are sending a message about acceptable behavior - and it's a strong message. A weak message will not have the effect they need.
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            • Profile picture of the author HeySal
              Originally Posted by peter_act View Post

              Fully agree Steve, but it's not my supposition - it's what the Council for Civil Liberties says will happen.
              Governments are not known to do things solely for the well-being of their people. It's very possible that the law will be used to control personal choice as well as gangs. I don't agree with this type of ruling at all. I believe that you give the people back their damned guns and let them protect themselves. I also do agree that if they are caught with meth, give them charges for dealing meth. That stuff is just deadly and anyone that would sell it to a minor needs to be locked up out of the way. "Minor" being the key phrase. If an adult wants to be that idiotic and self destructive, let em kill themselves. It's not like humans will go extinct if we don't have them around.

              If that new law is used to curtail freedom of expression along with crime - then you have the same kind of leaders to kick the heck out of office as we do here.
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              • Profile picture of the author peter_act
                Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

                I believe that you give the people back their damned guns and let them protect themselves.
                We're not allowed to have guns, John Howard issued that law after the Port Arthur massacre - at the time the world's worse mass killing by an individual.

                News report:

                "On Sunday 28 April 1996, the historic site of the Port Arthur penal colony in Tasmania attracted hundreds of visitors. At lunchtime the Broad Arrow Cafe was full. 28 year old Martin Bryant from Hobart entered the cafe, ordered and ate a big lunch, then pulled a semi-automatic rifle out of his bag and started shooting indiscriminately at tourists and staff. Within 15 seconds, 17 shots had been fired, 12 were dead and 10 injured. By the time Bryant had finished his rampage, he had killed 35 people using a range of semi-automatic weapons in and around Port Arthur. The newly-elected Howard government sat for the first time the following week. By May 10, all state and territory ministers had agreed to heavily restrict the ownership and use of self-loading rifles, self-loading and pump-action shotguns. A gun buy-back scheme was initiated, funded by a temporary increase in the Medicare levy. Some 643,000 firearms were handed in at a cost of $350 million."
                If that new law is used to curtail freedom of expression along with crime - then you have the same kind of leaders to kick the heck out of office as we do here.
                At the moment, I suspect the leaders would be re-elected with a huge majority.
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                • Profile picture of the author peter_act
                  Another consequence of the new laws - yesterday a guy wearing a black motorcycle jacket with a "Sons of Anarchy" patch on the back was stopped and questioned.

                  The cop didn't know that "Sons of Anarchy" was a TV show.
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                  • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                    Originally Posted by peter_act View Post

                    Another consequence of the new laws - yesterday a guy wearing a black motorcycle jacket with a "Sons of Anarchy" patch on the back was stopped and questioned.

                    The cop didn't know that "Sons of Anarchy" was a TV show.
                    Next it will be pulling over someone just because they ride a Harley or a big v-twin, or someone with a black leather jacket. Then if they have a beard or long hair. Then the cops will figure out (hopefully) that their profiling isn't working.
                    I think most of those new laws you have would be stricken down here in the U.S., thanks to our pesky constitution
                    Putting all the bikers convicted in the same prison is a great idea, for the bikers. What better place to serve time then where everyone has the same passion (motorcycles) and lifestyle as you.
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                    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                      Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                      Next it will be pulling over someone just because they ride a Harley or a big v-twin, or someone with a black leather jacket. Then if they have a beard or long hair. Then the cops will figure out (hopefully) that their profiling isn't working.
                      I think most of those new laws you have would be stricken down here in the U.S., thanks to our pesky constitution
                      Putting all the bikers convicted in the same prison is a great idea, for the bikers. What better place to serve time then where everyone has the same passion (motorcycles) and lifestyle as you.
                      One really interesting fact that many don't consider. One of the earliest materials for garments that is RELATIVELY waterproof, durable, easy to clean, looks nice, and is protective is one that took like millennia to "improve" on. The name of that miracle material? LEATHER! Is it possible, just POSSIBLE, that the reason that the bikers started wearing it was because it was so PERFECT? As for beards and long hair? Well.....

                      As I said earlier, I am AGAINST putting all gang members in the same jail, etc... HECK, it might be a good idea to isolate them, etc... In some documentaris, they talk about how some jails may have like 5 or more GANGS! It just makes things worse for all.

                      Steve
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                      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                        Steve having slide on my back at over 80 mph after a high speed wobble, I know why we wear leather
                        The thing with the prison is, even rivals will come together against a common enemy.
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                        • Profile picture of the author peter_act
                          Well, the new anti-bikie laes have been in effect for about 10 weeks. In today's paper::
                          'We run this town', say police.

                          Police statistics show bikie crackdown is working Crime rates across the Gold Coast have been slashed by more than 60 per cent in the face of the massive police crackdown against criminal motorcycle gangs.

                          In just 10 weeks, taskforces Takeback and Maxima staged a counter attack against criminal gangs, systematically dismantling the bikie criminal networks that claimed to rule the Glitter Strip.

                          The stinging backlash from police has seen gang members hand in their colours, club houses abandoned and dramatic drop in crime across the city.

                          The stats:

                          Assaults down 38 per cent

                          Robbery down 64 per cent

                          Break and enter down 24 per cent

                          Motor vehicle offences down 22 per cent
                          Wonder why we didn't do this earlier!
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                          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                            Hard to argue with success, isn't it?

                            What are protestors going to say? "Yes, we want more assaults"....

                            I'm glad you updated this as I've wondered how it went.
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                          • Profile picture of the author meepo
                            So... lemme get this straight:

                            A bunch of smaller gangs were playing mafia and running the town. "Trust us, Pay us, We protect you"

                            Then a big gang comes in and stages a massive counter-attack to eliminate all the smaller gangs.

                            After 10 weeks, the big gang announces "WE WON, here's fancy numbers for proof, don't question them... now Trust us, Pay us, We protect you"

                            Only difference was: The big gang was funded by the Government.

                            What changed? Seems they traded one group of thugs, for another.

                            Moral of the story: Don't go into competition with the Govt. You'll get your ass handed to you.
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                            • Profile picture of the author peter_act
                              Originally Posted by meepo View Post

                              So... lemme get this straight:

                              A bunch of smaller gangs were playing mafia and running the town. "Trust us, Pay us, We protect you"
                              No protection was offered, all that was offered was "Pay us" (and they weren't playing!)

                              Then a big gang comes in and stages a massive counter-attack to eliminate all the smaller gangs.
                              Actually a big gang did come in -from the U.S. - it saw the huge profits the gangs were making and wanted a share.

                              Headline from the local rag before the crackdown - "Bikie gang the Finks will join with US group the Mongols to become a global outlaw force on the Coast"

                              big gang announces "WE WON, here's fancy numbers for proof, don't question them... now Trust us, Pay us, We protect you"
                              No fancy numbers, tourists have increased dramatically. Used to be a robbery every night on the news, now there are none. We pay the police anyway, so might as well get value.

                              Civil liberties groups have gone awfully quiet - they can't argue with Kay's post!
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                              • Profile picture of the author meepo
                                Originally Posted by peter_act View Post

                                No fancy numbers, tourists have increased dramatically. Used to be a robbery every night on the news, now there are none. We pay the police anyway, so might as well get value.

                                Civil liberties groups have gone awfully quiet - they can't argue with Kay's post!
                                So the Govt/Corporation funded news outlets were reporting nightly robberies? And now they are not? Does that strike you as a scare tactic? Or do you believe they report "just the facts ma'am?"

                                You pay the police, but do you have a choice? Are you offered an alternative? What would happen if people pursued their own alternatives?

                                How is this arrangement fundamentally different than the biker gangs? "Pay us, and we won't harm you. Don't pay us, you're screwed."

                                I guess I'm not seeing the difference between the "before" & "after" pictures.

                                EDIT -

                                I should clarify that I'm glad to hear that people feel safer and that tourism is returning. Also, I'm not advocating lawlessness or chaos. I'm just wondering why the only option presented as an alternative to chaos is a double-bind situation that seems extremely similar to a mafia monopoly.
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                                • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                                  I think your argument misses by a mile at least. Might want to read up on the background and facts of this story.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author meepo
                                    Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                                    I think your argument misses by a mile at least. Might want to read up on the background and facts of this story.
                                    Ok I confess: I was experimenting in this thread... the outcome of the experiment has been noted & evaluated. Thank you for your participation.
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                                    • Profile picture of the author socialentry
                                      Originally Posted by meepo View Post

                                      Ok I confess: I was experimenting in this thread... the outcome of the experiment has been noted & evaluated. Thank you for your participation.
                                      I took a class on organized crime at uni as an elective.

                                      It was actually a question worth 10%-15% of the final grade.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author peter_act
                                    Originally Posted by Gold Coast Bulletin December 14, 2013 12:01AM:

                                    The world's most powerful bikie gang, the Hells Angels, are the latest to flee the Gold Coast, taking everything that wasn't nailed down even the kitchen sink.

                                    Sinks, light fittings and even a toilet were stripped from the fortified clubhouse which was intended to spearhead the gang's push into the Coast.

                                    Across the coast, clubhouses have been closed. The Bandidos with their famous motto "Our colours don't run" were the first to pull out and handed back the keys to their clubhouse.

                                    The Finks followed suit. A sophisticated security system was removed as the gang moved out - leaving the owners out of pocket on rent and utilities.

                                    The Rebels' base has been re-leased and the Nomads signage has been torn down.

                                    The Black Uhlans, the only club to own their base, has put their clubhouse up for sale.

                                    "It's an awesome result," said Supt Keogh. "Shut down, gone, and closed for business. There has been no activity at any of these premises at all."

                                    "These clubhouses were strategically located in proximity to what they considered their turf. They were a symbol that the area belonged to them.

                                    "Well, not anymore."
                                    Looks like the Gold Coast is back to normal!
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                                    • Profile picture of the author peter_act
                                      New update - headlines from local paper:

                                      Retailers welcome drop in Gold Coast crime statistics

                                      Surfers paradise restaurants have best ever Christmas holiday sales

                                      All accommodation is booked out, and no seats are available at family restaurants.

                                      Young men are being arrested for being drunk (even if not disorderly), and there is zero tolerance for the slightest form of antisocial behaviour, like swearing and spitting.

                                      Bikies are now being tested for steroids (they all use them!). Any positive test for steroids - straight to jail.

                                      I've now been to Surfers Paradise at night, something I would never have done before.

                                      If this is a restriction of my civil liberties (which it is), gimme more!
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            • Profile picture of the author seasoned
              Originally Posted by peter_act View Post

              Fully agree Steve, but it's not my supposition - it's what the Council for Civil Liberties says will happen.
              Maybe because of THEM!!!!!!!! Like I said, the bar needs to start acting sober, etc....

              For those that DON'T get the joke:

              BAR=LAWYER LICENSING ORGANIZATION in the US...
              START=IMPLIES they currently are NOT!
              SOBER=SANE, REASONABLE,INTELLIGENT. A non-drunk is called SOBER because drunks are generally NOT sober!

              Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
    Banned
    Originally Posted by peter_act View Post

    Civil liberties or law and order?
    I don't see them as alternatives: it seems to me that part of the purpose of having "law and order" is to protect people's civil liberties.
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  • Profile picture of the author hardraysnight
    jo bjelke-peterson where are you when we need you?
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Sal - I think you are missing the bigger picture on this story. I a tourist area you don't let people fight it out - you don't issue guns or anything of the sort. You do what you have to do to give the tourists assurance of a safe secure vacation destination. This isn't about stopping crime per se - it's about protecting the tourist industry that supports the entire area and the people who live there!
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      Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world changes forever for that one dog
      ***
      Dear April: I don't want any trouble from you.
      January was long, February was iffy, March was a freaking dumpster fire.
      So sit down, be quiet, and don't touch anything.
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