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Denmark Is Considered The Happiest Country. You'll Never Guess Why

by TLTheLiberator
63 replies
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Denmark Is Considered The Happiest Country. You'll Never Guess Why.
  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Sounds like the bygone days of the US.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      The clinical psychologist Oliver James has written a book about it (not specifically about Denmark, but he keeps coming back to Denmark/Copenhagen all the way through it, discussing the reasons mentioned on the site above and many others). Fascinating, and strongly recommended: Affluenza: Oliver James: 9780091900106:...Affluenza: Oliver James: 9780091900106:...
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    I think I SUSPECT why you showed this, but let's be HONEST here!

    The six factors for a happy nation split evenly between concerns on a government- and on a human-scale. The happiest countries have in common a large GDP per capita, healthy life expectancy at birth and a lack of corruption in leadership. But also essential were three things over which individual citizens have a bit more control over: A sense of social support, freedom to make life choices and a culture of generosity.
    OK, WE now have a NEGATIVE GDP per capita, taking into account REAL numbers! We are LUCKY if we have a chance at a healthy life, ESPECIALLY in old age! And we have MORE corruption in "leadership" than maybe ANY "free" nation. That is starting to get VERY obvious! In the 1950s they LAUGHED at the prospect of what we have now. LITERALLY!!!!!! LAUGHED!

    We have NO real freedom to make life choices. You YOURSELF said you got something akin to the tingles, that chris matthews said he felt down his legs, at the taking away of some of them recently. And that DID hurt the "culture of generosity" we HAD. BASICALLY take away from the not so poor and give to the poor. MOST of those people were NEVER RICH, but many poor consider them so SIMPLY because they see things that they would love but didn't ever want to sacrifice for.

    Some have dared to change even the word generosity. Generous does NOT mean they give you things, etc.... It means that people FREELY GIVE from what THEY have bought or worked for, or likewise gotten. Our government can't be truly generous, since they have taken SO much and a government is NOT the culture anyway! If a person steals $100,000 and then gives you $100 for a ride, is that person generous? NO WAY!

    They didn't work for that money, and certainly didn't buy it. In fact, by stealing that money, they may have turned the person the stole from into a SLAVE! Suppose a person spent ALL THEIR LIFE working for a person that berated them, insulted them, ridiculed them, MAYBE even hit them, etc... And they saved the pay ALL THEIR LIVES! A thief stealing the money INSTANTLY made them people that went through that for NOTHING, and they may have only the clothes on their back.

    I LIKED being in denmark. It seemed storybook. I thought about maybe living there. But it isn't perfect either. Of course, I would HAPPILY settle for what the US HAD! HECK, I think I might even PREFER it.

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
      Actually, I would have guessed why. But then, I'm a fan of Borgen.
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    • Profile picture of the author Hopeless Bromantic
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      I think I SUSPECT why you showed this, but let's be HONEST here!



      OK, WE now have a NEGATIVE GDP per capita, taking into account REAL numbers! We are LUCKY if we have a chance at a healthy life, ESPECIALLY in old age! And we have MORE corruption in "leadership" than maybe ANY "free" nation. ...
      Although there's significant corruption among the authorities around here, most countries in Africa and Latin America are many times worse in that area.

      (I would agree that Northern Europe is probably the least corrupt region on the planet.)
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by Hopeless Bromantic View Post

        Although there's significant corruption among the authorities around here, most countries in Africa and Latin America are many times worse in that area.

        (I would agree that Northern Europe is probably the least corrupt region on the planet.)
        Well, you DID have to go far. Yeah, some countries, like denmark, norway, sweden, finland would rather be called scandinavia.

        germany, austria, and switzerland have tried to stay out of some of the muck.

        Speaking of corruption and the US and germany, did you hear that the US has apparently been spying on many in europe, INCLUDING Angela Merkel? Angela, the chancellor of Germany, is, understandably, VERY angry! I guess the US will have trouble with the G8/20 and with the IMF! Maybe we should watch our borrowing!

        Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
          Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

          Well, you DID have to go far. Yeah, some countries, like denmark, norway, sweden, finland would rather be called scandinavia.

          germany, austria, and switzerland have tried to stay out of some of the muck.

          Speaking of corruption and the US and germany, did you hear that the US has apparently been spying on many in europe, INCLUDING Angela Merkel? Angela, the chancellor of Germany, is, understandably, VERY angry! I guess the US will have trouble with the G8/20 and with the IMF! Maybe we should watch our borrowing!

          Steve
          Please, this outrage is manufactured. Countries spy on each other,
          that's what they do. And spying on your allies is more important
          than spying on your enemies.


          Back to the conversation at hand. Yes, population and location
          have a lot to do with it. But the fact that they pay their teachers
          about what they pay their doctors has a lot to do with it, too!
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          • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
            Banned
            Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

            the fact that they pay their teachers about what they pay their doctors has a lot to do with it, too!
            This, specifically.

            And generalising further from that, Denmark is a country in which the income disparities between "low-paid" and "high-paid" jobs are - overall - very significantly less than those typical of countries with less happiness (higher rates of depressive illness, much higher suicide-rates, and the various other parameters routinely measured). The same is also true, to greater/lesser extents, of other "happy countries". There's undeniably a close and consistent correlation, there (it's been fairly well studied and researched since about the 1950's/60's).
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            • Profile picture of the author hitesh93
              Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

              This, specifically.

              And generalising further from that, Denmark is a country in which the income disparities between "low-paid" and "high-paid" jobs are - overall - very significantly less than those typical of countries with less happiness (higher rates of depressive illness, much higher suicide-rates, and the various other parameters routinely measured). The same is also true, to greater/lesser extents, of other "happy countries". There's undeniably a close and consistent correlation, there (it's been fairly well studied and researched since about the 1950's/60's).
              This again ties GREATLY into population though.

              A successful business in the US caters to a LOT bigger population = a LOT more potential buyers = a LOT more income for the executives/people in charge.

              I'm not saying that we don't have issues with some inequality (though I disagree on the reasons why that exists). But comparing Denmark to US is apples to oranges. Denmark has limited population, doesn't taken in a million+ impoverished from the third-world every year. Doesn't have the transportation and administrative costs that come with a nation as big as the US. And of course, Denmark as a nation has lower population than most of US' bigger cities.

              Lies, darned lies, and statistics proven right again
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              • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                Banned
                Originally Posted by hitesh93 View Post

                But comparing Denmark to US is apples to oranges.
                I didn't say a word about the US. I've never even been there (but have been to Denmark).

                Originally Posted by hitesh93 View Post

                Lies, darned lies, and statistics proven right again
                If you say so. It's undeniably "statistical" that Denmark (and other countries - regardless of their size - with smaller multiple disparities between higher and lower incomes) consistently have far lower suicide rates, and incidence of depressive illness, than countries with higher multiple disparities. This is simply factual: it's been known, recorded and proven worldwide for many decades. It's the kind of thing that a couple of generations of psychiatric epidemiologists have studied and analyzed professionally. I think nobody can possibly dispute your calling it "statistics".

                What I don't understand is the reference to "lies" or "darned lies", or where the US comes into what I said, at all?
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                • Profile picture of the author hitesh93
                  Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                  I didn't say a word about the US. I've never even been there (but have been to Denmark).



                  If you say so. It's undeniably "statistical" that Denmark (and other countries - regardless of their size - with smaller multiple disparities between higher and lower incomes) consistently have far lower suicide rates, and incidence of depressive illness, than countries with higher multiple disparities. This is simply factual: it's been known, recorded and proven worldwide for many decades. It's the kind of thing that a couple of generations of psychiatric epidemiologists have studied and analyzed professionally. I think nobody can possibly dispute your calling it "statistics".

                  What I don't understand is the reference to "lies" or "darned lies", or where the US comes into what I said, at all?
                  Alexa, the travesty is that people like you and I agree on the effects but disagree on the causes. That's what keeps most of us from communicating properly.
                  I completely agree with you - lower disparity among the rich and poor is a sign of a stable, happy society. But how do we get there?
                  The disparity amongst the rich and poor is primarily created in a system that encourages corruption. Small populations make it very hard to hide corruption. Kinda like how in a small town everyone knows each other. The bigger and more powerful you make a government, the easier it becomes for the rich to bribe the officials (we call them campaign contributions) and the harder it becomes for the poor to compete with the rich (who then use complex tax laws, EPA laws and such to discourage competition).
                  If you eliminate the massive power wielded by a government, it eliminates corruption, which in turn brings in fair competition, which benefits the poor.

                  There is a reason why only lawyers and wealthy investors seem to be part of a government any nations with large populations.

                  So you and I would agree on the signs of a healthy society, but disagree on the causes of one
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                  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by hitesh93 View Post

                    Alexa, the travesty is that people like you and I agree on the effects but disagree on the causes.
                    In a deliberate attempt to be both non-confrontational and non-political, I commented only on correlation, not on causation. I expressed no opinion on the causes, so you're just guessing what I think about that. But you're consistent: you told me that it was unrealistic for me to compare Denmark with the US when I hadn't said a word about the US, either. One person's "travesty" is another person's "assumption-based misunderstanding", I think.
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                    • Profile picture of the author David Maschke
                      Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                      In a deliberate attempt to be both non-conforntational and non-political, I commented only on correlation, not on causation. I expressed no opinion on the causes, so you're just guessing what I think about that. But you're consistent: you told me that it was unrealistic for me to compare Denmark with the US when I hadn't said a word about the US, either. One person's "travesty" is another person's "assumption-based misunderstanding", I think.
                      hitesh93, here's how to get a real reaction out of Alexa...

                      Alexa, your shoes just don't shout "Sociology" expert.

                      P.S. You may not be claiming to be one here, but we know you are
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                      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                        Banned
                        Originally Posted by David Maschke View Post

                        Alexa, you shoes just don't shout "Sociology" expert.
                        My shoes don't shout at all - I buy the quiet type, being mouthy enough myself not to need any competition from my own footwear.

                        I am, however, registered as a part-time research student working (albeit embarrassingly slowly) toward an eventual Ph.D. in medical sociology (if I can ever finish it), so it's the kind of thread I'm always likely to post in. But still, I have to admit that it's fair comment that, in general, sociology-girls are more likely to wear flats ( ) than stilettos, so you're right, really.
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                        • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
                          Originally Posted by David Maschke View Post

                          Alexa, your shoes just don't shout "Sociology" expert.
                          Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                          My shoes don't shout at all - I buy the quiet type, being mouthy enough myself not to need any competition from my own footwear.

                          So...many...puns... Must... resist...

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                        • Profile picture of the author HeySal
                          Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                          My shoes don't shout at all - I buy the quiet type, being mouthy enough myself not to need any competition from my own footwear.

                          I am, however, registered as a part-time research student working (albeit embarrassingly slowly) toward an eventual Ph.D. in medical sociology (if I can ever finish it), so it's the kind of thread I'm always likely to post in. But still, I have to admit that it's fair comment that, in general, sociology-girls are more likely to wear flats ( ) than stilettos, so you're right, really.
                          Well, I can't speak for England - but my stilettos seemed to be fine for my Soc classes -- as well as for practicing my country's dating norms. :rolleyes: You should'a seen the ones I got in Denmark. If you had that pair, Denmark would just make you all sorts of happy, too.
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                          • Profile picture of the author KingArthur
                            Post on this thread five years from now after their socialist welfare program has collapsed.
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                            • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
                              Originally Posted by KingArthur View Post

                              Post on this thread five years from now after their socialist welfare program has collapsed.
                              Yeah, because no socialist country has ever lasted more than
                              five years. :rolleyes:



                              By the way, I just spoke with a gentleman from Denmark
                              and mentioned the ideas we have been throwing around,
                              and asked him his opinion.

                              Laughing, the only thing he would comment on is:

                              "It's because we have good weather!"
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                              • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                                Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

                                Yeah, because no socialist country has ever lasted more than
                                five years. :rolleyes:
                                Actually, cracks are starting to show EVERYWHERE! This may be the first time that we(AS A PLANET) had all these things happening at once to this degree.



                                By the way, I just spoke with a gentleman from Denmark
                                and mentioned the ideas we have been throwing around,
                                and asked him his opinion.

                                Laughing, the only thing he would comment on is:

                                "It's because we have good weather!"
                                Well, it IS nice. And for their size, they have a LOT of coastline!

                                Steve
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                                • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
                                  Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                                  Actually, cracks are starting to show EVERYWHERE! This may be the first time that we(AS A PLANET) had all these things happening at once to this degree.
                                  Systems of government are hardly the only variable in many
                                  of the "cracks" that are showing in countries around the world
                                  right now. We are living in a time of change, and there are
                                  a great many factors.

                                  When the next generation of Chinese children has so much
                                  trouble paying for college, will people blame the "crack"
                                  on Communism?


                                  Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                                  Well, it IS nice. And for their size, they have a LOT of coastline!

                                  Steve
                                  He didn't mention the coastline, I'll try to ask him next time
                                  he comes to town, but that seems like a win to me!

                                  Of course, Texas has a huge coastline, but I really do not
                                  like our beaches... I did when I was younger, but now that I've
                                  traveled so much, they're just not that impressive anymore.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                                    Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

                                    Systems of government are hardly the only variable in many
                                    of the "cracks" that are showing in countries around the world
                                    right now. We are living in a time of change, and there are
                                    a great many factors.

                                    When the next generation of Chinese children has so much
                                    trouble paying for college, will people blame the "crack"
                                    on Communism?
                                    I wasn't really talking about the government, though it IS a big symptom! There is the society. There is the fact that some places are more like a salad bowl than a melting pot. There is the lack of any altruism. There is the fact that currency is based SOLELY on promise, and that the governments don't know what a promise is. There is the high inflation, lack of real employment, high debt, etc..... We are WORSE off than 1929 and don't have the industry or tangible assets anymore.

                                    He didn't mention the coastline, I'll try to ask him next time
                                    he comes to town, but that seems like a win to me!
                                    That is simply the way I see it. It was an observation, not that I heard any dane mention it.

                                    Of course, Texas has a huge coastline, but I really do not
                                    like our beaches... I did when I was younger, but now that I've
                                    traveled so much, they're just not that impressive anymore.
                                    Yeah, they have probably gotten worse, and there ARE some nice beaches.

                                    Steve
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              • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                Originally Posted by hitesh93 View Post

                This again ties GREATLY into population though.

                A successful business in the US caters to a LOT bigger population = a LOT more potential buyers = a LOT more income for the executives/people in charge.

                I'm not saying that we don't have issues with some inequality (though I disagree on the reasons why that exists). But comparing Denmark to US is apples to oranges. Denmark has limited population, doesn't taken in a million+ impoverished from the third-world every year. Doesn't have the transportation and administrative costs that come with a nation as big as the US. And of course, Denmark as a nation has lower population than most of US' bigger cities.

                Lies, darned lies, and statistics proven right again
                I took a danish course, and it compared the population of denmark to New york. At the time, the size of new york STATE was DOUBLE!!!!!! So where is it TODAY!?!?!?!? New york ********CITY******** has 160% as many people as the COUNTRY of denmark! New york STATE has OVER 300% as many people as the COUNTRY of denmark!

                Yeah, it boggles the mind to compare the US to denmark. No offense to denmark, but it is FAR smaller and has FAR fewer concerns. Denmark is one of the countries involved with NATO:

                http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/...ectedLocale=en

                Members:



                Albania (2009)
                Belgium (1949)
                Bulgaria (2004)
                Canada (1949)
                Croatia (2009)
                Czech Republic (1999)
                Denmark (1949)
                Estonia (2004)
                France (1949)
                Germany (1955)

                Greece (1952)
                Hungary (1999)
                Iceland (1949)
                Italy (1949)
                Latvia (2004)
                Lithuania (2004)
                Luxembourg (1949)
                Netherlands (1949)
                Norway (1949)
                Poland (1999)

                Portugal (1949)
                Romania (2004)
                Slovakia (2004)
                Slovenia (2004)
                Spain (1982)
                Turkey (1952)
                The United Kingdom (1949)
                The United States (1949)

                Purpose:



                NATO's essential purpose is to safeguard the freedom and security of its members through political and military means.

                POLITICAL - NATO promotes democratic values and encourages consultation and cooperation on defence and security issues to build trust and, in the long run, prevent conflict.

                MILITARY - NATO is committed to the peaceful resolution of disputes. If diplomatic efforts fail, it has the military capacity needed to undertake crisis-management operations. These are carried out under Article 5 of the Washington Treaty - NATO's founding treaty - or under a UN mandate, alone or in cooperation with other countries and international organizations.
                So OBVIOUSLY, the small force that denmark has, although it IS substantial considering its size, is PLENTY big enough.

                Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

            Please, this outrage is manufactured. Countries spy on each other,
            that's what they do. And spying on your allies is more important
            than spying on your enemies.


            Back to the conversation at hand. Yes, population and location
            have a lot to do with it. But the fact that they pay their teachers
            about what they pay their doctors has a lot to do with it, too!
            Well, this is to a degree that has never really been possible before. I tried to find stats on teachers and lawyers:

            American site talking about danish opportunities...

            HIGH SCHOOL TEACHER $31,538 - $57,945(med $49,786)
            lawyer media $125762

            DANISH SITE.... Teacher with 12 years experience with special ed
            HIGHEST RATE: 30.573,91 kr

            REGULAR HIGHSCHOOL TEACHER, HIGHEST RATE: 41.520 kr

            DANISH LAWYER PAY STATISTICS SITE
            http://www.lonstatistik.dk/lonninger...b=Advokat-4169

            MOST POPULAR LAWYER RATE RANGE:64-89.999 kr (22%)
            LOWEST RATE ABOVE 8.47% 39-42.999 kr
            LOWEST AVERAGE is 42.000 kr

            BTW The exchange rate today is 10000 Kr= $1,849.07USD! 42.000 Kr is
            $7766.09USD

            The US rates are definitely YEARLY! The danish rates are so ABSURDLY low, that they must be monthly rates. That WOULD make them seem HIGH but, after taking into account taxes, they would have an income relatively close to a higher paid "equivalent" US teacher.

            My point is that unless you take the HIGHEST rate for a teacher, that cluster relatively close together, and the AVERAGE rate for a lawyer, based on a wide spread, but tending to be higher, the lawyers get paid as much as DOUBLE what teachers do!

            Steve
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            • Profile picture of the author Hopeless Bromantic
              Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

              Well, this is to a degree that has never really been possible before. I tried to find stats on teachers and lawyers:

              American site talking about danish opportunities...

              HIGH SCHOOL TEACHER $31,538 - $57,945(med $49,786)
              lawyer media $125762

              DANISH SITE.... Teacher with 12 years experience with special ed
              HIGHEST RATE: 30.573,91 kr

              REGULAR HIGHSCHOOL TEACHER, HIGHEST RATE: 41.520 kr

              DANISH LAWYER PAY STATISTICS SITE
              Advokat løn og lønstatistik konomi og jura

              MOST POPULAR LAWYER RATE RANGE:64-89.999 kr (22%)
              LOWEST RATE ABOVE 8.47% 39-42.999 kr
              LOWEST AVERAGE is 42.000 kr

              BTW The exchange rate today is 10000 Kr= $1,849.07USD! 42.000 Kr is
              $7766.09USD

              The US rates are definitely YEARLY! The danish rates are so ABSURDLY low, that they must be monthly rates. That WOULD make them seem HIGH but, after taking into account taxes, they would have an income relatively close to a higher paid "equivalent" US teacher.

              My point is that unless you take the HIGHEST rate for a teacher, that cluster relatively close together, and the AVERAGE rate for a lawyer, based on a wide spread, but tending to be higher, the lawyers get paid as much as DOUBLE what teachers do!

              Steve
              Assuming just for argument's sake that your analysis of the numbers is correct, you still have to take into account the overall differences in cost of living.

              Do Danish citizens have to save as much for retirement? For their children's education? For health care? What about the cost of housing; are there government subsidies for that? And so on...
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              • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                Originally Posted by Hopeless Bromantic View Post

                Assuming just for argument's sake that your analysis of the numbers is correct, you still have to take into account the overall differences in cost of living.
                I DID! For STARTERS, they pay MORE TAX which means they make roughly the same! They pay VAT, ETC... which makes many things MORE expensive.

                Do Danish citizens have to save as much for retirement?
                Apparently SO! My uncle doesn't seem to miss his potential danish pension much. OH, he PAYS into the system, but hasn't become a danish citizen and therefore can NOT collect!

                For their children's education?
                I think the US pays one of the highest rates for schools!

                Fast Facts
                In 2008-2009 the US supposedly paid $10,591USD per student in highschool.

                For health care?
                My uncle almost DIED waiting to see if he could get a life saving operation!

                What about the cost of housing; are there government subsidies for that? And so on...
                I don't think they have subsidies. But apparently buying a home is frowned on to a degree, etc...

                Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Sumit Menon
    One thing that isn't mentioned there is population. The city of Mumbai has 2.5 times the population of the whole country of Denmark. Low population helps GDP/capita.

    Imagine this. You have to be somewhere in an hour and you are standing in a queue to buy a train ticket. There is one person ahead of you in the queue and someone comes and asks you if they could cut ahead because they are running late. Would you let them? I would. What if there were 151 people ahead of you in the queue. Would you let them ahead this time?

    Yeah. Generosity is limited by the size of the population.
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    • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
      Originally Posted by Sumit Menon View Post

      One thing that isn't mentioned there is population. The city of Mumbai has 2.5 times the population of the whole country of Denmark. Low population helps GDP/capita.

      Imagine this. You have to be somewhere in an hour and you are standing in a queue to buy a train ticket. There is one person ahead of you in the queue and someone comes and asks you if they could cut ahead because they are running late. Would you let them? I would. What if there were 151 people ahead of you in the queue. Would you let them ahead this time?

      Yeah. Generosity is limited by the size of the population.
      I was thinking something similar. Lots of systems that have utterly failed with large populations have historically been effective for small populations in some places.
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      • Profile picture of the author hitesh93
        Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

        I was thinking something similar. Lots of systems that have utterly failed with large populations have historically been effective for small populations in some places.
        Which is precisely why the US was set up to have very effective small local governments.
        The Federal govt. was intended to be largely a basic administrative tool for state goverments, which were further broken down at County levels.
        You can keep corruption in check at county levels at most, but bigger than that and it becomes to easy to hide evil acts, and too difficult to educate the masses.

        The happiness of a people group is usually inversely proportional to the size of their immediate government and the level of 'power' it wields over them.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Adding to what Summit said....

    CORRUPTION is also more obvious in small countries. It is harder to hide. And we are supposed to have voted for an INCOME tax, NOT a wage tax. Many people have NO idea what they pay in taxes. MINIMUM WAGE? OH YEAH, *******WAGE*******! You don't actually get that as INCOME!

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    I really liked Denmark when I was there and wouldn't have had any qualms about living there except this one little factor -- it's colder than heck in that country. I was there in the height of summer and when that sun starts going down, it's like winter. Maybe that's why people seem so darned affectionate and happy there - they have to stay huddled to keep from freezing.
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    I love their sense of community.

    They have over 100K community & civic organizations and their population is less than 6 million.
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
    I stand corrected.

    They pay their teachers closer to what they pay their doctors.
    The teachers are paid well, and they perform well.

    Better educated young people make better decisions that lead to
    happier lives.
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    They do pay a lot in taxes but the also get a lot back in exchange.

    - Retirement security:

    All most elderly want is a decent place to live, decent food to eat and to able to pay for medical expenses at minimum and it would also be nice to leave behind at least one piece of property to the kids. (58% of Danes own property)

    - Health care security:

    They don't have to worry about a health problem destroying the family finances.

    - Unemployment security:

    If there's an economic downturn, they still get paid a lot of their salary - not peanuts - for at least 2 years. (it used to be 4 years)

    - Good child care:


    - No paying extra for education - all the way though university.

    We could get the same great benefits here and because we have a much larger economy and tax base - and we won't have to pay nearly as much in taxes as they do.

    But too many of us don't have the same values of community as the Danes do and it's reflected in the people we elect to higher office.

    This is the home of the rugged individual!
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      it would also be nice to leave behind at least one piece of property to the kids. (58% of Danes own property)
      Interesting, last I heard, it was frowned on!

      - Health care security:

      They don't have to worry about a health problem destroying the family finances.
      We don't HERE EITHER! Until recently, you didn't have to pay a PENNY! Granted, you would get nothing, but my uncle DID have problems, and he DID pay into the danish system a LONG time! They almost said effectively "You're too old! HERE! Take a PAIN KILLER!"!

      With my father, and with me, the US basically took care of it SAME DAY! BTW my father and uncle BOTH needed to have a heart bypass of some sort. It IS a common problem for older people.

      - Unemployment security:

      If there's an economic downturn, they still get paid a lot of their salary - not peanuts - for at least 2 years. (it used to be 4 years)
      WOW..... 4 to TWO!?!?!?!? WHAT HAPPENED!?!?!?!? I bet I know!

      - Good child care:
      GO AHEAD, SAY THAT! I STILL remember about the british nanny here! Louise Woodward case - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

      Not all are like that, but it shows where the world is going.

      - No paying extra for education - all the way though university.

      We could get the same great benefits here and because we have a much larger economy and tax base - and we won't have to pay as much in taxes as they do.
      MAN, you really DON'T understand about SCALE, DO YOU? COST INCREASES as NEED does! So we have more money! ******BIG DEAL******! We have MORE PEOPLE in "need". As for the tax base? As a percentage of the country, denmark probably has a LARGER tax base!


      But we don't have the same values of community as they do.
      JUST WAIT! My uncle, a patriot of the US, was APPALLED at how a Danish graduating class treated the danish flag, etc... ALSO, as entitlements are given, more are demanded. The latest generation is the first where nearly everyone was isolated from any such history.

      BTW it IS interesting how this thread plays both sides of the street. You want HIGHER PAY(and thus costs), and HIGHER TAXES(for lower costs). Maybe one day we will ALL get $1000,000 so we could be called MILLIONAIRES, and pay $999,000 in taxes. FREE HEALTHCARE! FREE EDUCATION! FREE PHONE! FREE COMPUTER! FREE SLUM! But only $1,000 spending money WHICH, with VAT is $500, and with sales tax is $450, and with sin taxes etc... is $330, and we will have NO freedom! BTW we WON'T need "retirement", since all is paid for, the healthcare will be for 14-40(ALREADY DISCUSSED!!!!), the education will be propaganda(in the works NOW!), the phone will be limited and tapped(partially there), the computer will be limited(already working on it), and the slum will be small and near worthless(ALREADY planned and in the works).

      See what I did there!?!?!?!?

      BTW TAXES ALWAYS GO UP, and you guys love to brag about 90% taxes. You forget about all that USED to be deductible, but STILL.... So what is an extra 9.9%? That is only an 11% increase, and you LOVE tax increases, RIGHT!?!!?

      Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
        Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

        Interesting, last I heard, it was frowned on!



        We don't HERE EITHER! Until recently, you didn't have to pay a PENNY! Granted, you would get nothing, but my uncle DID have problems, and he DID pay into the danish system a LONG time! They almost said effectively "You're too old! HERE! Take a PAIN KILLER!"!

        With my father, and with me, the US basically took care of it SAME DAY! BTW my father and uncle BOTH needed to have a heart bypass of some sort. It IS a common problem for older people.



        WOW..... 4 to TWO!?!?!?!? WHAT HAPPENED!?!?!?!? I bet I know!



        GO AHEAD, SAY THAT! I STILL remember about the british nanny here! Louise Woodward case - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

        Not all are like that, but it shows where the world is going.



        MAN, you really DON'T understand about SCALE, DO YOU? COST INCREASES as NEED does! So we have more money! ******BIG DEAL******! We have MORE PEOPLE in "need". As for the tax base? As a percentage of the country, denmark probably has a LARGER tax base!




        JUST WAIT! My uncle, a patriot of the US, was APPALLED at how a Danish graduating class treated the danish flag, etc... ALSO, as entitlements are given, more are demanded. The latest generation is the first where nearly everyone was isolated from any such history.

        BTW it IS interesting how this thread plays both sides of the street. You want HIGHER PAY(and thus costs), and HIGHER TAXES(for lower costs). Maybe one day we will ALL get $1000,000 so we could be called MILLIONAIRES, and pay $999,000 in taxes. FREE HEALTHCARE! FREE EDUCATION! FREE PHONE! FREE COMPUTER! FREE SLUM! But only $1,000 spending money WHICH, with VAT is $500, and with sales tax is $450, and with sin taxes etc... is $330, and we will have NO freedom! BTW we WON'T need "retirement", since all is paid for, the healthcare will be for 14-40(ALREADY DISCUSSED!!!!), the education will be propaganda(in the works NOW!), the phone will be limited and tapped(partially there), the computer will be limited(already working on it), and the slum will be small and near worthless(ALREADY planned and in the works).

        See what I did there!?!?!?!?

        BTW TAXES ALWAYS GO UP, and you guys love to brag about 90% taxes. You forget about all that USED to be deductible, but STILL.... So what is an extra 9.9%? That is only an 11% increase, and you LOVE tax increases, RIGHT!?!!?

        Steve
        On certain people and entities like the wealthy and large corporations I'd like the gravy tax giveaways in the tax code to be rescinded.

        What's so wrong about that?

        I forgot, it'll ruin the economy right?

        Anyways... (Let's see if we can have a constructive discussion)

        I bet if someone did a survey throughout the country at least 60% of adult Americans would like to move closer towards the national economic system that they have in Denmark.

        Let's be clear about what I'm talking about here:

        IMHO...

        If free health care, free education, generous unemployment benefits, retirement security, generous maternity leave, early childhood education and child care...

        ... were offered in exchange for a total of even 50% in taxes (local, state, federal) - most adults in America would go for the deal.

        I'll say over 60% of adults would like the deal and IMHO...

        ...it does not make them "nanny state" slaves or zombies or anything else negative.


        Questions????

        I know, I know, how can the feds or the states be trusted in the first place?

        How can they be trusted to get things right?

        How can we afford it as a nation?

        I already know the solid 35% of adults that would be against it - people like yourself right?


        I'd love to know what you think about my prediction of over 60% in favor.
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
          Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post


          How can we afford it as a nation?
          Well, we're paying $2 Billion per week to kill people in another country,
          maybe we could try stopping that and spending it on taking care of people
          in our own country, instead?
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          • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
            Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

            Well, we're paying $2 Billion per week to kill people in another country,
            maybe we could try stopping that and spending it on taking care of people
            in our own country, instead?
            I agree the defense budget needs to be scaled back quite a bit.
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        • Profile picture of the author ThomM
          Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

          On certain people and entities like the wealthy and large corporations I'd like the gravy tax giveaways in the tax code to be rescinded.

          What's so wrong about that?

          I forgot, it'll ruin the economy right?

          Anyways... (Let's see if we can have a constructive discussion)

          I bet if someone did a survey throughout the country at least 60% of adult Americans would like to move closer towards the national economic system that they have in Denmark.

          Let's be clear about what I'm talking about here:

          IMHO...

          If free health care, free education, generous unemployment benefits, retirement security, generous maternity leave, early childhood education and child care...

          ... were offered in exchange for a total of even 50% in taxes (local, state, federal) - most adults in America would go for the deal.

          I'll say over 60% of adults would like the deal and IMHO...

          ...it does not make them "nanny state" slaves or zombies or anything else negative.


          Questions????

          I know, I know, how can the feds or the states be trusted in the first place?

          How can they be trusted to get things right?

          How can we afford it as a nation?

          I already know the solid 35% of adults that would be against it - people like yourself right?


          I'd love to know what you think about my prediction of over 60% in favor.
          For your first line about corporate and rich taxes, I think we just need to simply the entire tax code and take out all the loopholes and deductions that allow them to pay less in taxes then their fair share.
          I'd love to see us go towards a a national economic plan similar to Denmark's, but we would almost start from scratch to achieve it.
          How many wars has Denmark been in during the last 60 years?
          How secure are their borders and how do they treat illegal aliens there?
          How many of their elected officials become millionaires AFTER being elected?
          Do they receive outrageous retirement plans when they leave office?
          Both those are possible because of the control corporations have on our govt.
          IF we ended our waring ways, put an end to the corporate control, and paid our elected officials less, we could use that money for programs that benefited the people. Take away their retirement packages also. That in itself would put a stop to "career politicians".
          AS for social programs, the trick is in giving people benefits that don't entice them to live off the dole (so to speak). Social programs only work when people work.
          If we took care of those issues we could have many of the social benefits Denmark has without raising taxes.
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          • Profile picture of the author HeySal
            Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

            For your first line about corporate and rich taxes, I think we just need to simply the entire tax code and take out all the loopholes and deductions that allow them to pay less in taxes then their fair share.
            I'd love to see us go towards a a national economic plan similar to Denmark's, but we would almost start from scratch to achieve it.
            How many wars has Denmark been in during the last 60 years?
            How secure are their borders and how do they treat illegal aliens there?
            How many of their elected officials become millionaires AFTER being elected?
            Do they receive outrageous retirement plans when they leave office?
            Both those are possible because of the control corporations have on our govt.
            IF we ended our waring ways, put an end to the corporate control, and paid our elected officials less, we could use that money for programs that benefited the people. Take away their retirement packages also. That in itself would put a stop to "career politicians".
            AS for social programs, the trick is in giving people benefits that don't entice them to live off the dole (so to speak). Social programs only work when people work.
            If we took care of those issues we could have many of the social benefits Denmark has without raising taxes.

            There's still one problem that remains. The US is 1/3 + over carrying capacity. It's not only the environment that fails when you push the carrying capacity - the whole society collapses as well. If we had our 200 mil carrying capacity population right now, we'd be able to employ our people again as well as clean our environments up quite some good deal.
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            • Profile picture of the author ThomM
              Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

              There's still one problem that remains. The US is 1/3 + over carrying capacity. It's not only the environment that fails when you push the carrying capacity - the whole society collapses as well. If we had our 200 mil carrying capacity population right now, we'd be able to employ our people again as well as clean our environments up quite some good deal.
              There's more then one problem that remains
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              • Profile picture of the author HeySal
                Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                There's more then one problem that remains
                Yeah, but they'd be more fixable. Especially the ones that involve cleaning up environments and energy strain.
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

            For your first line about corporate and rich taxes, I think we just need to simply the entire tax code and take out all the loopholes and deductions that allow them to pay less in taxes then their fair share.
            I'd love to see us go towards a a national economic plan similar to Denmark's, but we would almost start from scratch to achieve it.
            Right on ALL COUNTS!

            How many wars has Denmark been in during the last 60 years?
            NONE that I know of! It is a little known fact that, if someone attacked them, the attacker would unleash a HUGE bees nest! ONE of the little bees? Just ONE mind you, would be the US!

            The US has had TONS of wars! Although there WERE concessions in WWII, one could argue that the US lost THAT war ALSO! Has the US even TRIED to win ANY war since!?!?!?

            How secure are their borders and how do they treat illegal aliens there?
            My Aunt happened to be involved in that part of their government. Apparently, they don't take kindly to illegal aliens. English is NOT necessarily known everywhere, but is probably known better than french or german, and many apparently aren't to crazy about the germans. I was told I could say kewbenhown(DANISH), or kohpenhaygen(COMMON ENGLISH PRONOUNCIATION), but that I should NOT say kohpenhawgen(COMMON GERMAN PRONOUNCIATION). So trying to find work might be hard without knowing danish. My uncle was one of the few that could operate the machine, and his boss said HE HAD to learn danish, even though his boss and many there WERE fluent in English.

            Anyway, she said it was HARD to be a danish citizen. The two easiest ways were apparently to marry a dane, or be a refugee that was accepted. Her primary job was getting such people assimilated.

            In the US, illegal aliens get SPECIAL rights!

            How many of their elected officials become millionaires AFTER being elected?
            I imagine it is uncommon! In the US, it happens ALL THE TIME!

            Do they receive outrageous retirement plans when they leave office?
            THEY are likely subject to the same rules THEMSELVES! In the US, they have SPECIAL rules, and can even AGGREGATE pensions!!!!!!!

            Both those are possible because of the control corporations have on our govt.
            IF we ended our waring ways, put an end to the corporate control, and paid our elected officials less, we could use that money for programs that benefited the people. Take away their retirement packages also. That in itself would put a stop to "career politicians".
            AS for social programs, the trick is in giving people benefits that don't entice them to live off the dole (so to speak). Social programs only work when people work.
            If we took care of those issues we could have many of the social benefits Denmark has without raising taxes.
            Right on ALL counts, but ONE! We could actually LOWER taxes!!!!!! And do you realize that we give some big business a special subsidy that is RARELY mentioned that encourages producing things offshore, and killing domestic jobs? One BIG beneficiary, in fact the BIGGEST, is CHINA! WHY do they have "most favored trade partner" status?

            Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

          On certain people and entities like the wealthy and large corporations I'd like the gravy tax giveaways in the tax code to be rescinded.

          What's so wrong about that?

          I forgot, it'll ruin the economy right?
          Well, they tax things like raw goods, end product, machinery, etc.... And that *******WILL****** get passed to the CONSUMER! I am AGAINST some stupid giveaways that are automatic. The idea of growing certain crops for example. Some will grow them ONLY to get the "subsidy", and somehow misuse things. ALSO, they may have OTHER uses, etc.... But SOME ****NEED**** the subsidies to SURVIVE!

          HECK, I knew a woman that got a payment from the US to pay for her EDUCATION, to get OFF WELFARE! I would have been ALL FOR THAT!

          She used the money to move to a higher cost area, and STAYED ON WELFARE!

          Was THAT right?!?!?!?

          THE ACA tax on medical implants, for example, is UTTERLY MORONIC! The cost will be passed to the consumer, and INCREASES overall costs! That NEGATES its stated purpose! We ALREADY pay a surcharge for licenses, FDA TESTING, FDA APPROVAL, ETC...

          I bet if someone did a survey throughout the country at least 60% of adult Americans would like to move closer towards the national economic system that they have in Denmark.
          With some exceptions, I would like to move to a system like they have, but this government is TOO CORRUPT, and will ******NEVER****** give up what they have!

          But HEY, I like the danes, like the infrastructure, know a lot of the language, etc.... I even TOYED with moving there. That isn't so easy though. But the US is SO different from denmark in SO many different ways. And I dislike the EU conventions, like VAT. Frankly, I LIKE ristet polse(men uden remuladde)! HEY, the americans and danes have SOMETHING in common! Anyway, the DANES like POLSE! At least many do. But the EU declared them ILLEGAL! The danes had to get an EXEMPTION saying that red dye #2 was traditional, and they would be targeted only to danes!

          If free health care, free education, generous unemployment benefits, retirement security, generous maternity leave, early childhood education and child care...

          ... were offered in exchange for a total of even 50% in taxes (local, state, federal) - most adults in America would go for the deal.

          I'll say over 60% of adults would like the deal and IMHO...

          ...it does not make them "nanny state" slaves or zombies or anything else negative.


          Questions????
          OK, WHY DON'T WE HAVE IT? We probably pay close to 50% in local, state, and federal ALREADY! Add in OTHER fees, and it SKYROCKETS! HECK, just on my LIVING accommodations, I spend over about $7000/year in taxes. For FLIGHTS, I probably spend an average of $3900/year in taxes. For GAS, at today's prices, it would be about $546/year. We pay a LOT in taxes! And YEAH, Danish people pay like 55%, last I knew, but their income, EVEN THE MINIMUM WAGE, are scaled for it! In 1989, the takehome pay for a dane was roughly equivalent to the takehome pay for an American WITH MINIMUM WAGE and ALL TAXES! I actually crunched the numbers when I was there! They had about the SAME money! And what of GAS? MANY walked, biked, or took the TRAIN! ALSO, denmark DID make an electric car! They weren't common, but they were common enough that I saw a few. And regular cars cost a FORTUNE! And what of VAT? Well, some things actually cost LESS before vat, so it isn't that bad. They DO have SIN taxes, but I don't drink or smoke, so that is OK with ME!

          But it WAS nice!

          I know, I know, how can the feds or the states be trusted in the first place?

          How can they be trusted to get things right?

          How can we afford it as a nation?

          I already know the solid 35% of adults that would be against it - people like yourself right?


          I'd love to know what you think about my prediction of over 60% in favor.
          YEAH. As for the 60%? I ALREADY said it depends how it is played. HEY, you can sell GARBAGE for a FORTUNE, LITERALLY!!!!!!!

          One time, on peoples court, I saw a case where a person was suing because she paid HUNDREDS of dollars for a cheap photograph. She WON because the judge believed the other person had NO reasonable expectation of getting paid for that picture, and that the plaintiff OBVIOUSLY, and REASONABLY, understood that she would be getting what was IN the picture, and not the picture itself!

          SO, you claim that people will buy the picture you sell them. I say..... ******DUH******!

          WHY am I AGAINST IT? Because I know it is only a PICTURE!

          Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author Sumit Menon
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      We could get the same great benefits here and because we have a much larger economy and tax base - and we won't have to pay nearly as much in taxes as they do.

      But we don't have the same values of community as they do.

      This is the home of the rugged individual!
      No you can't. Denmark and other Scandinavian countries have a small, stable mono-cultural population. I don't see the Scandinavian style governments scaling to a largely populated country like the US.

      The Danish government only needs to serve so many number of people. So the economy doesn't need the large number of jobs as the US or any other large country does. Even if you raised the wages of every American to the level of their Dane counterparts through legislation, there would be SOME companies who wouldn't shutdown their factories in the US and move elsewhere. The Danes only need that many industries to sustain their economy and employ the people. America on the other hand would fail.
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      • Profile picture of the author Hopeless Bromantic
        Originally Posted by Sumit Menon View Post

        No you can't. Denmark and other Scandinavian countries have a small, stable mono-cultural population. I don't see the Scandinavian style governments scaling to a largely populated country like the US.

        The Danish government only needs to serve so many number of people. So the economy doesn't need the large number of jobs as the US or any other large country does. Even if you raised the wages of every American to the level of their Dane counterparts through legislation, there would be SOME companies who wouldn't shutdown their factories in the US and move elsewhere. The Danes only need that many industries to sustain their economy and employ the people. America on the other hand would fail.
        I'm not at all convinced that the model can't scale. Just look at how successful companies like Volvo, Ericsson, and Ikea have been over the years - and how many jobs they provided.
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        • Profile picture of the author Sumit Menon
          Originally Posted by Hopeless Bromantic View Post

          I'm not at all convinced that the model can't scale. Just look at how successful companies like Volvo, Ericsson, and Ikea have been over the years - and how many jobs they provided.
          They have around 350K employees combined, all over the world (Wikipedia). Not even close to the US work force. I'm not saying all companies would shut down. I'm saying, given 10 companies in a market, if the cost of doing business were increased to significantly higher levels, around 5 of them would bail out (Speculation. Not a statistic). Industries with 2-3 large companies, would most likely stay.

          That's just one of the arguments I make against why the model wouldn't scale.

          The Scandinavian countries are highly passive in their foreign policy. They don't have the jihadists hunting for their ass and they can spend much less in defense. This money can be channeled to education and healthcare. US can't afford to do that, although it should spend significantly lower than it is now.

          Immigration is not a big deal in Scandinavia. There are a lot of people migrating into the US every year who are making far below the average American salary. They drive up competition and drive down wages.

          There are a few more reasons I think this wouldn't work. But, I got some studying to do for college exams and I'd list them if this thread is still active when I have more time to debate (that is couple weeks from now).
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  • Profile picture of the author David Maschke
    Back to the drawing board on trying to illicit an emotional response in my copy.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    hitesh93,

    Good point about lawyers! Frankly, those is congress should be like 30 or older, working from lower rung PRIVATE SECTOR NON UNION jobs and having PRIVATE SECTOR business experience exceeding like 10 years!

    It is ludicrous that we have people running the government with NO real experience AT ALL! And SO many are lawyers, which just makes things WORSE! So their world view is heavily skewed!

    WHY do we have lawyers in government ANYWAY, if they can't even write decent laws, and won't even read the stupid bills!

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
    Originally Posted by hitesh93 View Post

    Which is precisely why the US was set up to have very effective small local governments.
    The Federal govt. was intended to be largely a basic administrative tool for state goverments, which were further broken down at County levels.
    You can keep corruption in check at county levels at most, but bigger than that and it becomes to easy to hide evil acts, and too difficult to educate the masses.
    Funny, my experience has been the exact opposite. County level corruption,
    in particular, is extremely difficult to combat, with local county sheriffs and
    judges living like kings in many cases, with very little oversight and exposure
    of their crimes.

    Originally Posted by hitesh93 View Post

    The happiness of a people group is usually inversely proportional to the size of their immediate government and the level of 'power' it wields over them.
    I think it has a lot less to do with "size" and "power" and more to do with
    whether or not the government is working for the people.

    In example, people love to complain about how FEMA took 5 days
    to get water to some of the people suffering after Katrina. When Bush
    found out, he was furious. He immediately increased the power of the
    POTUS and parts of FEMA so that that kind of red tape would be cut
    through without delay in the future.

    Government is not bad. Big government is not bad. Only bad government is bad.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

      Government is not bad. Big government is not bad. Only bad government is bad.
      RIGHT, but the bigger a government is, the more they can twist to get the "lawmakers" SPECIAL powers and funds. It is ALSO harder to STOP!

      Did YOU know that congressmen, last I heard, started at close to $100K/year. At this point it is likely FAR more, and get HUGE pensions for each position? BTW Apparently they just got a 1% pay raise, AND..."Most members of Congress are paid $174,000; leaders are paid up to $223,500." Remember, they do NOT work a full year! They can hire many people and some GLADLY work for free because they are brainwashed and/or get special consideration fo certain things. They also get COLA, long vacations, and backpay. They get ADVANCED notice of what happens at the fed and in various other cases. They have special insurance, special waivers, can use special transportation, etc..... The list goes ON AND ON! They are exempted from SO many laws. If they make a case, they can get armed guards. In a lot of cases, they get them ANYWAY.

      Even laws meant to control their power are now being OVERTLY twisted! They are ALSO allowed to lie, cheat, steal, insult with NO fear of repercussions.

      Anyway, our government has TONS of problems. At least Denmark seems to get value for some of what they pay for. If I knew when I was 20 or younger what I knew now, I would have had a lot of fun in europe first. i would probably have learned the basics of many of the major west european languages, learned about several countries, made a lot of friends, etc... I would probably have also seen what I could do to get a secondary passport. I COULD have made a case for two countries.

      MAN, when I found that I went like the year AFTER so many opportunities expired, I felt like a SUCKER!

      Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
        Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

        RIGHT, but the bigger a government is, the more they can twist to get the "lawmakers" SPECIAL powers and funds. It is ALSO harder to STOP!
        In some cases this is no doubt correct. However, I have also born witness
        to local politicians getting away with crimes for decades simply because
        nobody would pay attention to them. I know of at least two cases here
        in Texas that would infuriate most people more than anything either the
        current or previous POTUS have ever done.


        Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

        Did YOU know that congressmen, last I heard, started at close to $100K/year. At this point it is likely FAR more, and get HUGE pensions for each position? BTW Apparently they just got a 1% pay raise, AND..."Most members of Congress are paid $174,000; leaders are paid up to $223,500." Remember, they do NOT work a full year! They can hire many people and some GLADLY work for free because they are brainwashed and/or get special consideration fo certain things. They also get COLA, long vacations, and backpay. They get ADVANCED notice of what happens at the fed and in various other cases. They have special insurance, special waivers, can use special transportation, etc..... The list goes ON AND ON! They are exempted from SO many laws. If they make a case, they can get armed guards. In a lot of cases, they get them ANYWAY.
        Haha, yeah I will spare you and the rest of the WF my rant on Congress.


        Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

        Even laws meant to control their power are now being OVERTLY twisted! They are ALSO allowed to lie, cheat, steal, insult with NO fear of repercussions.
        No argument here. My only point is that it is not only "big" government.
        Local governments also tend to have too much power, often with less
        accountability.


        Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

        Anyway, our government has TONS of problems. At least Denmark seems to get value for some of what they pay for. If I knew when I was 20 or younger what I knew now, I would have had a lot of fun in europe first. i would probably have learned the basics of many of the major west european languages, learned about several countries, made a lot of friends, etc... I would probably have also seen what I could do to get a secondary passport. I COULD have made a case for two countries.

        MAN, when I found that I went like the year AFTER so many opportunities expired, I felt like a SUCKER!

        Steve
        I've always wondered how much the blind patriotism that is encouraged
        in the US keeps people from moving abroad? We're told from a very
        young age that the US is the best in everything. Our elders, supposedly
        more traveled and worldly, admonish us, "It may not be perfect here,
        but it's worse everywhere else!"

        The truth is in fact quite a bit more balanced. This is a great country...
        But one in a list of quite a few great countries, each with strong points
        and weak.
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

          I've always wondered how much the blind patriotism that is encouraged
          in the US keeps people from moving abroad? We're told from a very
          young age that the US is the best in everything. Our elders, supposedly
          more traveled and worldly, admonish us, "It may not be perfect here,
          but it's worse everywhere else!"
          Well, I never liked the idea that the US is fantastic no matter what. That is just STUPID! I have said many things to that effect here. But it used to be a LOT better!

          Some look at a place like Denmark with a relatively small army and LAUGH! FUNNY, they NEVER laugh at bees! They may laugh at the fact that they have a relatively simple life. GRANTED, I was just in a couple parts of denmark, but NONE of it seemed like New York City or some such. HEY, that is part of its CHARM! SOME might even talk about how their currency isn't worth much. At this point, it s enjoying a high of maybe 20 cents. But HEY, the japanese is little more than a penny, and the Euro and pound are currently OVER a dollar. SO WHAT!?!?!? As for elders, etc? Americans(ones that have assimilated for more than about 2 generations) are probably about the LEAST traveled and worldly, as a group. HECK, I will even say that most OTHER americans aren't really.

          I met a texan in Denmark that was older than I was, and a couple US military guys, in Germany, and they had NO respect for the locals. NONE!

          The truth is in fact quite a bit more balanced. This is a great country...
          But one in a list of quite a few great countries, each with strong points
          and weak.
          Yeah! This country has like 3 things going for it. BIG, ISOLATED, and a lot of technology originated here. It used to have SO much MORE going for it! And to THINK, we laughed at russia because they believed the propaganda. One of their propaganda machines even came to the US and now spreads it HERE, in english as of 2010, according to wikipedia!

          Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author garyv
    I think their culture is what allows them to have success with the type of government they have over there. Our culture here in the United States has always been one of self reliance which has been sustained with individual God given rights of freedom and the pursuit of happiness.

    But we are a constitutional republic, so we're given rights as individuals to pursue our happiness based on our constitution. They are a democracy driven constitutional monarchy, so their rights are based on what's best for the majority. We have individual rights - they have majority rights.

    Our system works out well and people are the happiest here when they abide by our original form of government and the constitution in it's purest form, and people are given their unalienable God given individual rights to freely pursue happiness.

    Our happiness here lately has been in decline because we are hampering with constitutional rights and individual freedoms for the purpose of "majority happiness" in the guise of democracy. There's no reason we can't take care of each other here, but we have to do it in a way that doesn't trample the rights of others. Allow us to be generous at an individual level. You can't effectively force generosity so long as our constitution is set up the way it is.
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
    But... But... I like salad...
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

      But... But... I like salad...
      I do TOO! But the US IS supposed to be a melting pot!

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
    Living in one of the fattest cities in the world (Houston, TX)
    I have to say that I think the US could do with a little less fried food
    drenched in cheese, and a little more romaine lettuce and fresh tomatoes!

    Oh, with some grilled chicken and red grapes.
    And yes, I am hungry, I forgot to eat dinner.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    What do you want on your salad?

    Pie.

    (Drew Carey)
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  • Profile picture of the author taskemann
    Ah... I thought it was because of their liberal weed laws (Christiania), the low age of consent, and their bloody cheap alcohol they were happy...
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by taskemann View Post

      Ah... I thought it was because of their liberal weed laws (Christiania), the low age of consent, and their bloody cheap alcohol they were happy...
      Cheap alcohol? They have SIN TAXES! From what I understand, they are primarily on cigarettes and ALCOHOL! I can't speak to the alcohol, but I smuggled danish cigarettes into denmark! ***WHY***? Because my uncle LOVES them and DANISH cigarettes cost HALF as much in Germany! At least they did 24 years ago! Since he is a danish resident, he is only allowed like one pack, and I was allowed a carton.

      BTW They actually have at least one company that takes danes into germany to a special area called flensborg. Signs, ALL OVER, say "Vi taler dansk"(We speak danish). I'm sure the lower taxes have a LOT to do with it.

      Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author taskemann
        Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

        Cheap alcohol? They have SIN TAXES! From what I understand, they are primarily on cigarettes and ALCOHOL!
        No no no Steve. I was in Denmark two years ago and I was shocked on how cheap the alcohol was. I don't think there's any tax on it. For example, I purchased 96 17oz cans of premium 5.3% beer there for $50 (exclusive the deposit). If I had purchased it here in Norway, it would have costed me something near $500, and WE are heavily taxed.

        I don't know about cigarettes though since I don't smoke.
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by taskemann View Post

          No no no Steve. I was in Denmark two years ago and I was shocked on how cheap the alcohol was. I don't think there's any tax on it. For example, I purchased 96 17oz cans of premium 5.3% beer there for $50 (exclusive the deposit). If I had purchased it here in Norway, it would have costed me something near $500, and WE are heavily taxed.

          I don't know about cigarettes though since I don't smoke.
          WOW! As I said, I only heard about the sin taxes, and saw them on cigarettes. My uncle at least USED to love to smoke. Maybe after his heart attack he, or his wife, got him to stop like my father did. Anyway, he said the danish cigarettes were the best he ever had.

          BTW are those prices recent? You can't even buy a soft drink here for that little! Did you maybe misconvert the prices? TODAY: The euro is about $1.35306. The Danish krone is about $.18140. The Norwegian krone is $.16782

          ALL are going down, but the Norwegian krone seems the strongest against the dollar. October 16th to October 30, they SKYROCKETED!

          Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Wolster
    Tons of positive posts on here about it, so come on guys, lets all pack our bags and move to Denmark.

    Or maybe wait till we learn to speak Danish first.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by Wolster View Post

      Tons of positive posts on here about it, so come on guys, lets all pack our bags and move to Denmark.

      Or maybe wait till we learn to speak Danish first.
      Well, let's just say Groucho marx would love it there!

      I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member.
      Groucho Marx
      BTW I LOVE his definition of politics!

      Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
      Groucho Marx
      IRONIC that his last name is marx!

      Steve
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