Do you believe in the 10 000 hours rule ?

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I wondered what are you thoughts on the Malcolm Gladwell research, that if you practice a skill for 10 000 hours you become professional level at the practiced skill.

Do you find that theory true ?

Suggest your argument please!

What is your skill/skills that you have practiced for more than 10 000 hours?
  • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
    From another thread...

    Originally Posted by Joe Mobley View Post

    I felt a brief moment of anxiety when I read somewhere that Malcolm Gladwell, author of The Tipping Point and Blink, says it takes 10,000 hours of effort to master a subject.

    Hmm... let's see. 40 hours per week times 50 weeks per year = 2,000 hours. In only 5 years of full time study I could master Internet Marketing.

    About that time I noticed my bull-shi-TOM-eter was pegged in the red. My breathing returned to normal and the anxiety passed.

    Sorry Malcolm, I'm not going for it. It might make a good catch-phrase for selling books of for businesses that bill by the hour, but not for me.

    And then I stumbled on to this video by Tim Ferriss of 4-Hour-Workweek fame.

    YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

    Joe Mobley

    You can see some of the responses here,

    http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...000-hours.html


    Joe Mobley
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  • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
    Something to consider is that you're improving all the time during those 10,000 hours. As in it's not a matter of from A (Novice) to B (Expert) but rather a progression from A to Z making progress at every point.
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  • Profile picture of the author derekwong28
    10,000 hours is approx the time it takes for doctor to complete board exams in their specialty. However, this does not include the period spent in medical school which would be at least another 10,000 hours. Furthermore, passing the board exams is often regarded as the minimum required in that specialty. You will probably need another 10,000 to become a real expert.
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    • Profile picture of the author lowriderzzz
      nice comments, but you didn't mention what is your skill/skills (business related) that you have practiced for 10 000 hours ?

      I'd appreciate if you share. And also what is your success level.

      For me its languages - translating, writing, communicating etc.
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      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
        Originally Posted by lowriderzzz View Post

        nice comments, but you didn't mention what is your skill/skills (business related) that you have practiced for 10 000 hours ?

        I'd appreciate if you share. And also what is your success level.

        For me its languages - translating, writing, communicating etc.
        Selling. It took about ten years before I was really great.

        Kung Fu. It took ten years before I considered myself very proficient....and the movements to look effortless.

        I don't play a musical instrument, but I imagine that you're pretty good after ten years of daily practice.
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        • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
          Gladwell's always an entertaining read, but I wouldn't rate Outliers as among his best work. I don't find the case he makes for the 10,000-Hour Rule to be that convincing, and one of the examples he cites in support - that it was the 10,000 hours The Beatles spent playing in Hamburg that shaped their subsequent global success - I simply don't buy at all. He's confusing expertise with innate talent, in my view.

          That said, there's surely a correlation between the time spent practising and one's dexterity in any given activity, although the actual number of hours, I would think, must depend on the difficulty of the skill being practised, as well as some kind of accepted definition of what being an expert in that field would constitute.


          @ Joe - thanks for the link. I'd missed that thread and it made for some interesting reading.


          Frank
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          • Profile picture of the author Horny Devil
            Banned
            Well it doesn't apply to the wife's cooking. A million hours practice wouldn't improve it.

            Yesterday, my daughter said to me, "Dad, I saw a film at my friend's house, and Dracula killed this man with a stake". I replied, "I've news for you girl. Your mother can do that with egg and chips".
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            • Profile picture of the author glowworm
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              Originally Posted by Horny Devil View Post

              Well it doesn't apply to the wife's cooking. A million hours practice wouldn't improve it.

              Yesterday, my daughter said to me, "Dad, I saw a film at my friend's house, and Dracula killed this man with a stake". I replied, "I've news for you girl. Your mother can do that with egg and chips".
              So funny

              As for the 10,000 hours rule, what a load of tosh.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
    Banned
    Originally Posted by lowriderzzz View Post

    What is your skill/skills that you have practiced for more than 10 000 hours ?
    Sleeping.

    I haven't even spent 10,000 hours writing.

    I've probably played backgammon (and studied backgammon books) for nearly 5,000 hours, though - and that's quite a lot for someone my age.
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  • Profile picture of the author Lucian Lada
    Kind of strange to generalize such things. Some people need just 1,000 hours (or less) to master a given skill, while others could go on forever and never reach a decent level. I've seen this happening in the dating field.

    Maybe it's just a reference point for the average person; who knows.
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  • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
    Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

    If you're looking to master an artistic or scientific pursuit, I'd say it's valid.

    Business is a unique blend of art and science.

    If you think about it, there aren't that many masters of anything around.
    Some are called masters, I suppose. But there is always more to learn about anything. Even to the person most talented. They can always improve.

    in fact, great talent actually makes further advances easier, because the learning process is so ingrained.

    The word Mastery implies no further learning. But to me, that's silly. The more you know, the more aware you are of what else you can know.
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    • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
      A master knows that time is illusory and the hours he consumes are as relevant as a ruler to measure them.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

      No, you're inferring a meaning that simply isn't there. Masters get better at what they do. Segovia, Michelangelo, hell, even Eric Clapton, who's pretty much mastered the American blues form -- all of them kept or keep getting better until nature stopped or stops them.

      Tai Chi masters continue to study the forms.

      Mastery does not mean stagnation.

      You're nitpicking.
      I was inferring a meaning that some people could assume, but...you are right, it isn't there. One of the dictionary definitions of Mastery is Full command of a subject of study. I was talking about that definition.

      So you and I are saying virtually the same thing? I think you're nitpicking.

      But I did it first, so that makes me a better nitpicker.... Nay, a Master Nitpicker.

      Claude "Master Nitpicker" Whitacre
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      • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        I was inferring a meaning that some people could assume, but...you are right, it isn't there. One of the dictionary definitions of Mastery is Full command of a subject of study. I was talking about that definition.

        So you and I are saying virtually the same thing? I think you're nitpicking.

        But I did it first, so that makes me a better nitpicker.... Nay, a Master Nitpicker.

        Claude "Master Nitpicker" Whitacre
        This entire quote plays well with your alter ego, The Prancer.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
      Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

      No, you're inferring a meaning that simply isn't there. Masters get better at what they do. Segovia, Michelangelo, hell, even Eric Clapton, who's pretty much mastered the American blues form -- all of them kept or keep getting better until nature stopped or stops them.

      Tai Chi masters continue to study the forms.

      Mastery does not mean stagnation.

      You're nitpicking.
      Considering the topic of this thread, this is an unintentionally funny comment.

      Clapton has said he tried to learn how to play Robert Johnson's 32/20 Blues for decades and could never get it right. Keith Richards has also struggled with 32-20 blues for years.

      Yet, as legend has it, Robert Johnson learned to play guitar in 6 months. History tells us it wasn't much longer than that. After begging Willie Brown and Son House to teach him how to play guitar and they declined, Johnson disappeared for a short time, only to return as the best blues guitar player in Mississippi.

      Hence, the legend of selling his soul to the Devil at the Crossroads in exchange for being the best guitar player.

      Clapton has had well over 10,000 hours to try to play something that Robert Johnson took a much shorter time to actually play.

      I also think many people confuse talent and skill. Talent can't be taught or learned, only enhanced. Skills can be taught and learned. And, different skills take different amounts of time to master and there's no "one size fits all".
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    what does it matter? That is just less than 5 years if taken as a weekday only, 8 hour/day only job. HOW many people have done that? Many HERE might say MANY, but I beg to differ! I have worked far longer as a programmer, even over 5 years. Does it guarantee you will be professional in ANYTHING? NOPE! Then again, what is professional. SOME say it means ONLY that you are paid for it.

    JUST TODAY I learned I have to train a person that knows virtually NOTHING! He doesn't know the main subject, or any of the secondary ones, and seems to know relatively little about the peripherals, but HE is paid! I learned all he claims to know, and perhaps a few more things in a few short weeks. I have known people working, for YEARS, at what he is to do that know little about it.

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      what does it matter? That is just less than 5 years if taken as a weekday only, 8 hour/day only job. HOW many people have done that? Many HERE might say MANY, but I beg to differ! I have worked far longer as a programmer, even over 5 years. Does it guarantee you will be professional in ANYTHING? NOPE! Then again, what is professional. SOME say it means ONLY that you are paid for it.

      JUST TODAY I learned I have to train a person that knows virtually NOTHING! He doesn't know the main subject, or any of the secondary ones, and seems to know relatively little about the peripherals, but HE is paid! I learned all he claims to know, and perhaps a few more things in a few short weeks. I have known people working, for YEARS, at what he is to do that know little about it.

      Steve
      Steve; We all know people with a decade of experience who are incompetent.

      The "10,000 hour idea" assumes that the time is spent improving in the task, not just doing the task.

      And the reason the examples aren't 8 hour days is because after a few hours, learning becomes harder. The law of diminishing returns sets in. Studying for 8 hours is not twice as good as studying for 4 hours. It may not be better at all.

      Anyway, that's all in the book. A good read.
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  • Profile picture of the author Slab
    Hogwash and subjective.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    As with many a generality, it will be true for some people and not true for others. I would guess there are NBA players who haven't played 10,000 hours of basketball yet they are at the highest level of the game. I would guess there are others who have played over 10,000 hours who will never be good enough for the NBA.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      As with many a generality, it will be true for some people and not true for others. I would guess there are NBA players who haven't played 10,000 hours of basketball yet they are at the highest level of the game. I would guess there are others who have played over 10,000 hours who will never be good enough for the NBA.
      I agree. I studied selling, and psychology for ten years, and I'll never be good enough for the NBA.

      Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

      Agreed.

      It perhaps assumes that there's both some aptitude and some interest and a great deal of enthusiasm in the activity/subject concerned. As I remember, Gladwell describes the 10,000 hours more as "the amount of time to become one of the best in the world", not so much as "the amount of time to become proficient/professional".
      Yeah, The "Ten year" figure is like the "80/20 Rule". It's a useful rule, but it's just a broad estimate. And Gladwell assumes the desire to improve....and having potential.

      We all know people with 20 years experience in a business, who still make rookie mistakes. And are just doing a job.

      Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

      Since the previous conversation, I've spoken with quite a few older budoka
      about it. Most of them have said that it takes about 20 years of training to
      reach a level that would be considered "expert".

      That's about double Gladwell's suggestion.
      Mike; That's because, from their perspective, expertise is set at a higher standard. Some Karateka see practitioners in their fifties as just entering their prime.

      Steven Seagal is faster and better now, in his sixties, than he was in his thirties. Big belly and all.

      His muscles are slower...but he moves more efficiently, so the techniques are faster. At 58, I'm better than I was (in my martial art) after 20 years of practice. Eventually you slow down faster than you improve...and progress stops. But for many martial artists (The striking arts anyway) that doesn't happen until the seventies, or illness.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    I've pretty well mastered a few fields in that amount of time. There are others, though, that I think a lifetime would never be enough.....take for instance, drawing/painting. I don't get it. My sister is an artist and she can't even get me to understand the first thing about drawing on paper or canvas. So I don't think that just because someone stuck a pencil in my hand and sat me down to draw for years and years, I'd suddenly become able to do it. I know some people that couldn't write their way out of a paper bag, either - even though they understand the principles of grammar. It's just something they really don't "get".

    10,000 hours might be a pretty reasonable amount of time..........but it completely overlooks aptitude and interest in the subject to be conquered.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
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      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      10,000 hours might be a pretty reasonable amount of time..........but it completely overlooks aptitude and interest in the subject to be conquered.
      Agreed.

      It perhaps assumes that there's both some aptitude and some interest and a great deal of enthusiasm in the activity/subject concerned. As I remember, Gladwell describes the 10,000 hours more as "the amount of time to become one of the best in the world", not so much as "the amount of time to become proficient/professional".

      I agree with the comment above that The Beatles example is perhaps an unfortunate one, but there are countless others, and the book makes very much more interesting reading than is actually suggested by the conversation here. I learned a lot from it (as I did from his other books).
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
    Since the previous conversation, I've spoken with quite a few older budoka
    about it. Most of them have said that it takes about 20 years of training to
    reach a level that would be considered "expert".

    That's about double Gladwell's suggestion.
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  • Profile picture of the author travlinguy
    I think there are way too many variables involved to be able to make a determination. There are people who pursue careers because their parents force them to. They may have little aptitude for the chosen field though through familiarity they become proficient enough.

    Then there are people blessed with certain raw talents and fortunate enough to be able to develop those talents over time. I'm not aware of any studies on this but I'd bet those with intrinsic talent far outshine those without it or worse, were coerced into it. And I'd also guess they'll demonstrate proficiency a lot sooner.

    Generally speaking I think anyone spending 10,000 hours doing anything would become good at it. Lots of off color examples come to mind but I'll leave those for another time. :rolleyes:
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    Speaking of variables, there are the choices one makes - knowingly or unknowingly.

    For example, a famous musician who did not plan to not have kids, but her career focus made it so she did not have kids.

    Also, I knew an attorney who is very well respected and is one of the names in his small law firm. He is also home for dinner every night and does not work weekends. I'm sure his kids and wife think highly of him and always will.

    He could probably be as famous and expert as other attorneys who have a bigger rep, but he chose not to fly so high.

    And, the ones with a bigger rep, or who are at the top of large law firms may not be so well regarded by their wives and kids. Or, may have personal lives that are a train wreck.

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  • Profile picture of the author lowriderzzz
    Hmm. I like that you have each own opinions on the topic, but let me ask this: Lets say for instance that i practiced dances for 5 years ( or 5000 hours approximately) and now I plan to practice martial arts. How do you think these balance. Do I need new 10 000 hours to become "expert" or another 5000 hours will be enough, since its a very similar physical area? And I have the aptitude and the desire for greater goal.

    In my oppinion probably will need some more training than 5000 hours but not as much as 10 000 since I've learned and practiced many related things like stretching etc.
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
      Originally Posted by lowriderzzz View Post

      Hmm. I like that you have each own opinions on the topic, but let me ask this: Lets say for instance that i practiced dances for 5 years ( or 5000 hours approximately) and now I plan to practice martial arts. How do you think these balance. Do I need new 10 000 hours to become "expert" or another 5000 hours will be enough, since its a very similar physical area? And I have the aptitude and the desire for greater goal.

      In my oppinion probably will need some more training than 5000 hours but not as much as 10 000 since I've learned and practiced many related things like stretching etc.
      Oh, I'm only too happy to answer this one...


      I'm going to try to illustrate the idea by explaining a
      technique from karate.

      In karate, mawashigeri ("Roundhouse kick") is often the
      third kick that someone learns, and it is usually the first
      technique that new karateka (students of karate) really
      have trouble with learning to do correctly.

      The reason is that while it seems simple to people who
      have been doing it for years, there are actually quite
      a few movements that are foreign to new karateka, and
      they all have to happen in the correct order.

      First, the kicker shifts his weight forward, starting
      at the hips. His kicking leg (let's say the rear leg)
      is lifted, toes pointed down and knees pointed at the
      target (let's say the ribs). The rear hip thrusts forward
      in front, and simultaneously the leg the kicker is standing
      on bends just enough so that the tip of that knee is over
      (but not beyond!) his toes. At the right moment for
      maximum force, he pivots on his toes and, more importantly,
      turns his hips "over" and "down" while thrusting his
      foot out like a whip. In this case, we'll say that he
      intends to kick with the ball of his foot under his
      big toe, which also requires that the angle be correct
      so that he doesn't jam his toes into the ribs instead,
      hurting himself.

      Now, let's start with physical conditioning. Presumably,
      by the time a karateka is learning this technique, he will
      have the endurance to practice it a couple of hundred times
      per day. But even then he may find that he doesn't have
      enough strength in the ankle of his supporting leg to
      keep it from "wobbling" and losing power. So now he needs
      to do exercises to strengthen that.

      Usually, the biggest problem at first is a lack of hip power.
      Most people have very little power in turning their hips,
      and that takes years of specific exercises. Without
      flexibility and power, it is very difficult to turn your
      hips "over and down" while thrusting the kicking leg
      (and your weight!) forward.

      I'm not going to labor on about the rest of the details,
      those will begin my point to all of this. Someone who
      is a very skilled dancer probably already has a lot
      of flexibility and leg strength. They probably have
      excellent ability to pivot and whip their leg in the proper
      direction. You could probably pick up on the fundamentals
      of movement and the timing of putting them all together
      very quickly.

      But, can you actually kick with mawashigeri? No, not yet.
      Because you haven't learned to slam your foot into something
      hard without hurting it yet. If you've never spent time
      learning to hit properly, you can really jam your joints
      up and ruin them.

      The biggest problem among beginners-- even dancers and
      gymnasts-- is the connection of the kicking foot with the
      ribs. Getting the foot into the proper position is easy
      enough for them-- no broken toes in their experience!
      But they either have their foot and ankle too lose on impact,
      or worse they have it too stiff. (Imagine if the wings
      of an airplane were not flexible, they would be torn off
      in the wind!)

      Now, a person who has been an athlete can learn this technique
      faster than one who has not. And a gymnast or a dancer
      can learn this far *very* quickly. But can you kick now?

      NO!

      Next you have to learn the distance of the kick. You have
      to learn it more intimately than you ever have before. For
      example, you can tell by looking if something is in reach
      of your hand, but can you judge with perfect distance if
      it is in reach of your foot? Without over-extending yourself
      and losing your balance? Can you slowly lift your leg,
      flip the light switch with your toe, and the slowly lower
      your leg, all without losing balance or power of position?

      You'll have to learn to intuitively know whether or not
      a target is just slightly too far, slightly close enough,
      or just in the perfect distance.

      If you were a dancer, that will be relatively easy for you
      to get to this level with less practice than most people.

      NOW can you kick? NO!

      Because now you have to learn how to do it against a
      moving target that is also trying to hit you back.

      Now you're out of an area that your dancing experience
      can help you with directly. Of course, if you've danced
      with a partner quite a bit, that ability to read them
      and pick up on details might be helpful, because you can
      learn how to do it when someone is working against you,
      rather than with you. Just a little more quickly.

      So you spend (a lot!) of time, probably at the very
      least a couple of thousand hours, learning to do that
      perfectly. Not actually sparring or fighting, just doing
      drills to be able to use the technique on a moving target
      that is trying to keep you from doing it.

      NOW can you kick? Yeah, kind of...
      This is the point where most people stop. They can
      use mawashigeri and several other techniques. Sometimes
      they get a little tricky with it, maybe switch up targets,
      or fake the technique and use something else. Most people
      just learn to do it faster and harder and faster and harder.
      And after a few years of practicing the kick a couple of
      hundred times per day, their hips and legs are like pistons,
      and they can score with the kick reasonably often, and most
      people would call them an "expert". You've done about
      a thousand hours of practice and perhaps earned a
      "black belt". But no serious budoka would consider
      you anywhere near being an expert.


      Now would the dancer really be an expert in at least in mawashigeri? No!
      AND, their advantage of being a dancer has ended.
      Now they are in a world they know nothing about.

      Now you have to learn how to apply the kick with Noboashi.
      That means learning to "stretch out" your enemy.
      Remember back when you had to learn the perfect distance
      for your kick? Whether it was just a fraction of an inch
      too far away, or too close, to be effective? Well, now
      you have to know how to judge that for the opponent's
      techniques, too.

      Because what you want to do is be just a fraction of an
      inch outside of his range. Then lean forward with your
      upper body by about half an inch, and take a very aggressive
      attitude. This will make him feel like you are closer
      than you are, and he will think you are in range. Now
      he will launch his attack, but you come back to a normal
      position only a fraction of an inch back, throwing off
      his attack and making it slightly slower, and leaving him
      off balance. And of course you do this while simultaneously
      putting yourself into the perfect position and distance
      for your own kick.

      Well, that took a few years. Now are you an "expert"? No!
      Next you need to learn to use it with Tokoshi. Now you're
      going to learn how to attack when the opponent really is
      too far away. Most people take a small step, and then
      a larger one, so that they can put all of their weight and
      power into the attack. That's great and fine, but it's slower
      than taking the big step first, and then a small step
      before attacking. So now you have to learn to take a big
      step, then a small one, and pivot into your mawashigeri
      from the perfect distance. Your dancing may help you
      with that, but you also have to master it while he is
      trying to hit you back.

      And, because you took the big step first, you had less
      weight to go into the kick, which means it had less power.
      So now you have to go back and do more exercises to strengthen
      your hips so that you can hit harder, AND learn to recover
      into a position that allows you to follow up with another
      attack if necessary.

      Now are you an "Expert", even with this one technique!? No!
      Most Budo require that you learn quite a few tactics for
      applying every single technique. (Notice that the two
      that I described above, Nobashi and Tokoshi, both had
      to do with manipulating distance... I did that because
      they are easy to explain. But there are also dozens
      more about distance, as well as timing, momentum, deception, etc.)

      Even after you master the physical technique and the
      ability to apply it with various tactics, NOW are you an "expert"?
      NO!!!
      Because you still haven't mastered the ability to
      read your opponent and see how he will try to counter.

      Why is he just standing there in perfect range of your mawashigeri?
      Does he not know any better? Or is he about to fall into
      Sanchin, a very powerful stance that allows him to absorb
      even heavy blows, with his elbows just down to cover his
      ribs so that they "spike" your incoming foot, breaking several small
      bones and dislocating your toes?

      And now that you hesitated because of that, what is he
      doing next, as he steals that moment from you and starts
      his own attack? Can you put him back on the defensive?
      How do you keep him making mistakes in fear of your mawashigeri,
      so that he opens himself for another technique, perhaps?


      There are deeper levels that I'm not sure I can explain in words.
      But I think anyone who has read this really understands my point now?


      Now, that has been a short trip of several years,
      all with *a single technique*. The karateka, of course,
      is attempting to learn several techniques at once.

      For a little more perspective, Miyamoto Musashi said that it takes
      about 10,000 hours to learn the basics, and 30,000 to master them.
      Most modern budoka agree that it takes about 10,000 hours to
      master a very simple technique, although you can probably master
      just the physical movements in only 10K repetitions, even less
      if you are a good dancer... You won't be able to actually apply
      the technique, especially under extremely stressful conditions
      where your life may be on the line and the other person is a moving
      target that is also trying to hurt you back.


      Now once you are a master of something, you can certainly
      pick up on other skills very quickly. I have been playing
      chess and go for decades, so when I started playing backgammon
      last week, people were accusing me of having played before.
      But the simple fact is that I have little doubt someone like
      Alexa, who has played some 5000+ hours, would make short work
      of me.

      Before my wife passed away, she convinced me to learn to dance.
      I was surprised at how quickly I picked up many of the basics
      when I struggled with them the last time I tried-- when I was 10.
      Decades of martial arts made it far easier, but even now I still would
      never win a dancing competition, nor would any serious
      practitioner of dance consider me an "expert", despite the
      fact that I have become a very good dancer in a very
      short period of time. There are just far too many details
      that I don't know, probably things I've never thought of or
      imagined yet.



      Keep in mind that Malcolm Gladwell doesn't really write for the
      general public. Not really. His strategy is to get the CEOs
      and executives of Fortune 500+ companies to love his books.
      Then he convinces them that their company will be better if they
      make them required reading for their upper level management.
      Then middle level management. And voila!
      Viral word of mouth marketing!


      Sure, if you have some "similar" experience or skill, you can learn
      some of the fundamentals faster. If you learn *how to learn*
      then you can apply some accelerated learning techniques to
      learn the fundamentals faster. And if you know how to cheat
      by using steroids and dropping weight before the weigh-ins,
      then put it back on right before the fight like Tim Ferris used
      to do, well yeah, you can have what seems like success to
      most people. :rolleyes::p

      My challenge to you is that such a definition of "expert" is weak, at best.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        That is one of the coolest - and longest - explanations I've seen posted here.

        Takes an expert to explain expertise?
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      • Profile picture of the author HeySal
        Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

        Oh, I'm only too happy to answer this one...


        I'm going to try to illustrate the idea by explaining a
        technique from karate.

        In karate, mawashigeri ("Roundhouse kick") is often the
        third kick that someone learns, and it is usually the first
        technique that new karateka (students of karate) really
        have trouble with learning to do correctly.

        <snip> etc ........................
        Excellent. Um............there are people that would have paid plenty for that piece. Nice job.

        Oh.......incidentally, I used to teach dance for Fred Astaire Studios. LMAO -- if you want to learn a roundhouse.......you must first learn latin dancing. That'll get your hips moving.

        Seriously, too, though. You're dead on. My main niche is my favorite hobby as well.....rock and gem hunting. I've been hunting 25 years now. I run with the creme of the "sport". I've learned hella science from that activity........and beginners look to me for info.......but I"ll never learn even a fraction of what there is to know in this lifetime. Some stuff is just not quantitative. I've still got a head start on 99.9 % of the population.
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
          Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

          Excellent. Um............there are people that would have paid plenty for that piece. Nice job.

          Oh.......incidentally, I used to teach dance for Fred Astaire Studios. LMAO -- if you want to learn a roundhouse.......you must first learn latin dancing. That'll get your hips moving.

          Seriously, too, though. You're dead on. My main niche is my favorite hobby as well.....rock and gem hunting. I've been hunting 25 years now. I run with the creme of the "sport". I've learned hella science from that activity........and beginners look to me for info.......but I"ll never learn even a fraction of what there is to know in this lifetime. Some stuff is just not quantitative. I've still got a head start on 99.9 % of the population.
          Gem hunting, you say... That is an excellent conversational topic, I think...

          In the meantime, that reminded me of a meme, but I've been looking for
          it almost an hour now and I can't find it. I think it was a Tony Stark/real scientist
          meme, and it went something along the lines of:

          Real Science:
          "I'm a biochemist, and this requires molecular biology.
          I had better ask an expert in that field and search to find
          any peer-reviewed publications they may have used to
          establish their credibility."

          Movie Science:
          "I'm a computer scientist and this is astrophysics.
          Yeah no problem, I've got this!"

          :p
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      • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
        Note to self, don't piss Mike off. :rolleyes:

        Joe Mobley


        Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

        Oh, I'm only too happy to answer this one...

        I'm going to try to illustrate the idea by explaining a
        technique from karate.

        ...

        ...
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      • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
        Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post


        I'm going to try to illustrate the idea by explaining a
        technique from karate.

        In karate, mawashigeri ("Roundhouse kick") is often the
        third kick that someone learns,

        ...

        ...

        But can you kick now?

        NO!

        ...

        NOW can you kick? NO!

        ...

        So you spend (a lot!) of time, probably at the very
        least a couple of thousand hours,

        NOW can you kick? Yeah, kind of...
        ...

        Now would the dancer really be an expert in at least in mawashigeri? No!

        ...

        ...

        Well, that took a few years. Now are you an "expert"? No!
        ...

        ...

        Now are you an "Expert", even with this one technique!? No!


        ...

        ...

        NOW are you an "expert"?
        NO!!!



        ...


        For a little more perspective, Miyamoto Musashi said that it takes
        about 10,000 hours to learn the basics, and 30,000 to master them.
        Most modern budoka agree that it takes about 10,000 hours to
        master a very simple technique, although you can probably master
        just the physical movements in only 10K repetitions, even less
        if you are a good dancer...
        I think I'm liking guns more and more.

        Joe Mobley
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      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
        Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

        Oh, I'm only too happy to answer this one...


        I'm going to try to illustrate the idea by explaining a
        technique from karate.

        In karate, mawashigeri ("Roundhouse kick") is often the
        third kick that someone learns, and it is usually the first
        technique that new karateka (students of karate) really
        have trouble with learning to do correctly.
        Mike; Forget the fact that you know your stuff in practicing Karate. This was a great explanation in just how much there is to learn in a "simple" technique.

        Thank you.
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
          Originally Posted by Joe Mobley View Post

          Note to self, don't piss Mike off. :rolleyes:

          Joe Mobley
          lol, nah, my temper is slow to rise and quick to fall.


          Originally Posted by Joe Mobley View Post

          I think I'm liking guns more and more.

          Joe Mobley
          Guns are fantastic, for what they are. The sad part for me is that
          they do almost all of the work for you, and people come to rely
          on that far too much.



          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

          Mike; Forget the fact that you know your stuff in practicing Karate. This was a great explanation in just how much there is to learn in a "simple" technique.

          Thank you.
          Thank you. I was concerned about whether or not I was expressing
          myself clearly. Having spent so much time training in kung fu, I'm sure
          you are well aware of how words can fail sometimes.



          Originally Posted by bluecoyotemedia View Post

          Mike Tucker

          my reply was geared towards lowrider.. are you him???
          The location of your post after mine made me think that perhaps
          the "drill down into" comment may have included my in-depth post.
          And I figured that if it wasn't, well this is a public discussion forum,
          after all.




          Originally Posted by bluecoyotemedia View Post

          although I do appreciate your detailed response. thank you

          I happen to agree with Ferris and do not look at him as a cheater at all but one that realizes there are many ways to achieve the end result.
          Steroids are against the rules in most sports, including sport fighting.
          So yes, that is cheating.

          Dropping weight so that you can fight in a lower weight class against
          smaller guys after you put the weight back on is lame, and is in fact
          against the rules (and thus it is cheating) in some leagues.

          (If you were not aware, Tim Ferris did both of those things
          when he was pretending to be a martial artist.)

          "Many ways to achieve the end result" should not include manipulating
          the system and breaking the rules... which is the very definition of cheating.

          Who can be happy with hollow accomplishments?
          "There are some people so poor, all they have is money."


          Originally Posted by bluecoyotemedia View Post

          His method of Meta learning is indeed a great model to emulate if you want to try and experience MANY of life experiences at certain levels.

          One can learn a language and learn to speak it at a conversational level in 6 months. YET to MASTER the language could take years.. so the question may be brought up as to it's diminishing returns in reference to the marketplace. Does one actually need to MASTER the language to converse and communicate on a daily basis.??

          I also was referring to business market place that keeps evolving and changing.

          anyway.. its a great discussion and debate.. of which sadly I don't have the time to engage in at a really deep level because I am busy meta learning SE NUKE right now so i can outsource it to my VA

          Saludos

          Eddie

          Okay... Good luck and "To each his own".
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          • Profile picture of the author bluecoyotemedia
            Mike


            I applaud your sense of morals and although they are good to have in life's situation I think those same morals can actually cause more problems than help you in real life situations. .. especially when your dealing with different countries or cultures and they have different morals than you.


            your comments made me think about an episode of star trek.. am I crazy or what

            and Captain Kirk and the Kobayashi Maru - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

            what Ferris did was manipulate the odds to his favor..

            he did NOT cheat otherwise he would have been disqualified.. he thought outside the box and deployed a good strategy.

            its the same as immersing yourself in google and discovering loopholes to exploit your search rankings.


            It would be like mitigating your risk and having totally separate adsense accounts

            It would be like King Leonidas.. leveraging his position to be able to fight the 1 million Persian army by exploiting his geography. LOL

            it would like you and I are at a bar and because you had a few cocktails.. your ready to kick my ass with your "G.I JOE KUNG Fu Grip" because I bumped into your girlfriend.. so I take out a gun.. and level the playing field..

            again to each his own..


            Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

            lol, nah, my temper is slow to rise and quick to fall.




            Guns are fantastic, for what they are. The sad part for me is that
            they do almost all of the work for you, and people come to rely
            on that far too much.





            Thank you. I was concerned about whether or not I was expressing
            myself clearly. Having spent so much time training in kung fu, I'm sure
            you are well aware of how words can fail sometimes.





            The location of your post after mine made me think that perhaps
            the "drill down into" comment may have included my in-depth post.
            And I figured that if it wasn't, well this is a public discussion forum,
            after all.






            Steroids are against the rules in most sports, including sport fighting.
            So yes, that is cheating.

            Dropping weight so that you can fight in a lower weight class against
            smaller guys after you put the weight back on is lame, and is in fact
            against the rules (and thus it is cheating) in some leagues.

            (If you were not aware, Tim Ferris did both of those things
            when he was pretending to be a martial artist.)

            "Many ways to achieve the end result" should not include manipulating
            the system and breaking the rules... which is the very definition of cheating.

            Who can be happy with hollow accomplishments?
            "There are some people so poor, all they have is money."





            Okay... Good luck and "To each his own".
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            • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
              Originally Posted by bluecoyotemedia View Post

              Mike


              I applaud your sense of morals and although they are good to have in life's situation I think those same morals can actually cause more problems than help you in real life situations. .. especially when your dealing with different countries or cultures and they have different morals than you.
              Interesting. That has not been my experience thus far?
              Well, it's a big world.


              Originally Posted by bluecoyotemedia View Post

              your comments made me think about an episode of star trek.. am I crazy or what

              and Captain Kirk and the Kobayashi Maru - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
              Absolutely nothing wrong with Star Trek references.


              Originally Posted by bluecoyotemedia View Post

              what Ferris did was manipulate the system to his favor..
              Fixed that for you.


              Originally Posted by bluecoyotemedia View Post

              he did NOT cheat otherwise he would have been disqualified.. he thought outside the box and deployed a good strategy.
              Still, it's the same point. Pushing someone who weighs 30 lbs.
              less than you out of the ring doesn't make you an "expert".
              Especially after you get crushed by the little guy who was
              too good for your pushing.

              Also, he was disqualified from several matches for his steroid use.


              Originally Posted by bluecoyotemedia View Post

              its the same as immersing yourself in google and discovering loopholes to exploit your search rankings.

              It would be like mitigating your risk and having totally separate adsense accounts
              Or, instead of cheating and breaking the rules, you could just
              build a real business?



              Originally Posted by bluecoyotemedia View Post

              It would be like King Leonidas.. leveraging his position to be able to fight the 1 million Persian army by exploiting his geography. LOL
              No. War is not sport.


              Originally Posted by bluecoyotemedia View Post

              it would like you and I are at a bar and because you had a few cocktails.. your ready to kick my ass with your "G.I JOE KUNG Fu Grip" because I bumped into your girlfriend.. so I take out a gun.. and level the playing field..
              :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
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  • Profile picture of the author bluecoyotemedia
    lowrider


    if you drill down into that theory its really more geared to becoming a mastercraftsman.. like a tiger woods level.

    not a pro.. you can arrive at pro level in alot less time.

    the point I would like to make is.. is it really necessary to arrive a the tiger woods level or is it even worth the risk considering the every changing world we live in.

    I believe its better to have a birds eye view.. first drill down and become proficient..

    then document the process which can be replicated and outsourced.

    I use to think that all I needed to do was just outsource everything but have found it more productive to become proficient in the task

    then outsource it

    and step back into that bird eye view again

    it's like constant zooming in and out .. just be care sometimes you can get stuck zooming in that yo never zoom out LOL


    of course I am speaking within the business sense.

    Tim ferris explains this very well in one of his books where he refers to diminishing returns.. I think it was in the area of learning a language but I could be wrong

    Eddie



    Originally Posted by lowriderzzz View Post

    I wondered what are you thoughts on the Malcolm Gladwell research, that if you practice a skill for 10 000 hours you become proffesional level at the practised skill.

    Do you find that theory true ?

    Suggest your argument please!

    What is your skill/skills that you have practiced for more than 10 000 hours ?
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
      Originally Posted by bluecoyotemedia View Post

      lowrider


      if you drill down into that theory its really more geared to becoming a mastercraftsman.. like a tiger woods level.
      Sorry you had to "drill down into it"... I tried to make it clear.
      I really need to improve my ability to communicate. I envy
      those people who can say in a sentence or two everything
      that it takes me an essay to try to say, LOL


      Originally Posted by bluecoyotemedia View Post

      not a pro.. you can arrive at pro level in alot less time.
      Well, a "professional" is just someone who gets paid for their work.
      So yeah, by the end of the day I can have a job at the burger joint
      and be a "pro" burger maker.


      Originally Posted by bluecoyotemedia View Post

      the point I would like to make is.. is it really necessary to arrive a the tiger woods level
      No, of course not.


      Originally Posted by bluecoyotemedia View Post

      or is it even worth the risk considering the every changing world we live in.
      Yes, it is absolutely worth it. What "risk"?


      Originally Posted by bluecoyotemedia View Post

      I believe its better to have a birds eye view.. first drill down and become proficient..
      Yeah, for many things. I mean, I never expect to be an "expert"
      at watching TV.


      Originally Posted by bluecoyotemedia View Post

      then document the process which can be replicated and outsourced.

      I use to think that all I needed to do was just outsource everything but have found it more productive to become proficient in the task

      then outsource it

      and step back into that bird eye view again
      Outside of Hollywood, I've never heard of anyone outsourcing
      their ability in martial arts before? :p


      Originally Posted by bluecoyotemedia View Post

      it's like constant zooming in and out .. just be care sometimes you can get stuck zooming in that yo never zoom out LOL
      Very true. That is one of the things I chose not to labor on about
      in my previous post, but in Budo we teach senior students about
      Hanashi, or "Letting Go". The idea is that even thought patterns
      have inertia and you can get stuck trying ineffective methods, so
      you have to teach yourself to break those patterns and "Renew"
      your view of the situation.

      I'd like to point out that this is almost never something that a
      beginner or mediocre student faces... It is the result of repeated
      success with something, and the inability to recognize ahead
      of time that it has stopped working.

      Originally Posted by bluecoyotemedia View Post

      of course I am speaking within the business sense.
      The beauty of strategy is that it applies to everything.
      I'm not debating what you are saying, in a great many things
      in our life there is no actual "need" to get to the level of an "expert"
      because, in Internet Marketing for example, you can probably
      make a decent amount of money without ever getting that far.

      And in any form of making money, most people probably aren't
      doing it because they love the activity itself, so why would they
      put so much effort into it? They would rather spend that time
      hunting precious stones.

      My point is that being good enough to make money and be
      a "professional" does not make you an "expert", and the idea
      of putting in at least 10,000 hours is absolutely valid, when you
      are talking about something that you really want to master.

      Sticking with the martial arts analogy, I meet a lot of "tourists".
      They skip around from one martial art to another, often every
      six months or so, always looking for the one that is going to give
      them the skills they need to be invincible and unstoppable, and
      never finding them.

      "Acres of Diamonds" and all that.


      Originally Posted by bluecoyotemedia View Post

      Tim ferris explains this very well in one of his books where he refers to diminishing returns.. I think it was in the area of learning a language but I could be wrong
      Yeah, diminishing returns is an ancient concept. But an "expert"
      accepts that, and keeps on pushing and collecting all of those tiny
      details and advantages over the years and decades, and they add up.
      That's what sets him or her apart from the "pros".

      At this point I'm going to have to openly admit to myself that I have a negative
      bias toward Tim Ferris. Before the previous thread, I never heard of him
      as anything other than a martial artist, and he was a cheater, plain and simple.

      When a man or woman cheats in martial arts competition, I view it as
      a weakness of character that most likely permeates everything else in
      their life. The 4-Hour Work Week and his interviews seem to me like
      he is doing the same thing... Seeking short-cuts and cheating his way
      to success.

      I could just never aim that low, nor take the advice of anyone who does.

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      • Profile picture of the author bluecoyotemedia
        Mike Tucker

        my reply was geared towards lowrider.. are you him??? although I do appreciate your detailed response. thank you

        I happen to agree with Ferris and do not look at him as a cheater at all but one that realizes there are many ways to achieve the end result.

        His method of Meta learning is indeed a great model to emulate if you want to try and experience MANY of life experiences at certain levels.

        One can learn a language and learn to speak it at a conversational level in 6 months. YET to MASTER the language could take years.. so the question may be brought up as to it's diminishing returns in reference to the marketplace. Does one actually need to MASTER the language to converse and communicate on a daily basis.??

        I also was referring to business market place that keeps evolving and changing.

        anyway.. its a great discussion and debate.. of which sadly I don't have the time to engage in at a really deep level because I am busy meta learning SE NUKE right now so i can outsource it to my VA

        Saludos

        Eddie
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        • Profile picture of the author krswlr
          I think yes I remember playing Call of Duty for about 8h a day. After 4 months (counting in hours) I was able to score head shots on the run, without using a scope. Running on a map for me was as natural as breathing.

          I think the skills you want to acquire come by themselves, as long as your systematic about what you do.
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      • Profile picture of the author DubDubDubDot
        Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

        At this point I'm going to have to openly admit to myself that I have a negative
        bias toward Tim Ferris. Before the previous thread, I never heard of him
        as anything other than a martial artist, and he was a cheater, plain and simple.

        When a man or woman cheats in martial arts competition, I view it as
        a weakness of character that most likely permeates everything else in
        their life. The 4-Hour Work Week and his interviews seem to me like
        he is doing the same thing... Seeking short-cuts and cheating his way
        to success.
        haha well Tim Ferriss fans tend to be dimwits. You'd have to be to read his material and not question it.

        My favorite is his claim that he put on 34 pounds of muscle in a month. Imagine a 34 pound slab of lean meat (or 136 uncooked McDonalds quarter pounders). That is what Ferriss claims to have put on at the gym in one month.
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  • Profile picture of the author ConfusedJ
    I agree with most here; 10,000 hours seems quite excessive.

    It seems there are three variables at play:

    1. The standards for what qualifies as a professional.
    2. The exact subject (some thing are easier/simpler than others).
    3. The intelligence, and comprehension level, of the individual.

    Since all three of these vary wildly, there can never be a concrete number, like 10,000. I know people who can learn things in a day that others can't get in a week, and it's obvious that something like rocket science is more difficult to learn than something like that cooking.

    In my opinion, with the right dedication, and with someone with at least an average intelligence, you can rise to the level of professional in most areas within a year or less.

    Note that my standard for being a professional is simply being good enough at something to regularly be paid for doing it. It doesn't mean you're a know-it-all; a flawless guru who never makes any mistakes.

    Obviously, with more time dedicated to learning, your expertise will grow and you'll become better and better at your craft. You'll slowly go from being a mere professional to being, as bluecoyotemedia said, a master craftsman.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    At age 19, after boxing for just 6 months, George Foreman won a gold medal in the 1968 Olympics.
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      At age 19, after boxing for just 6 months, George Foreman won a gold medal in the 1968 Olympics.
      There always Outliers, and to be fair, he grew-up in the 5th Ward
      in the 50's and 60's!
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  • Profile picture of the author lowriderzzz
    So in general there is a difference if you have an affinity or don't have one for the practiced skill.

    This summer I set me a 10 years goal - to become a proffesional juggler. That means about 3 hours a day for about 10 years every day. I've done so far about 400 hours but I can see improvement every month even week, as I'm progressing with the tricks.

    I even record myself with the camera every few months to mark my progress.
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  • Profile picture of the author jacktackett
    Orson Scott Card had a good discussion of the 10,000 hour rule in one of his latest columns. I may not agree with all his views, but on the 10,000 hour rule I do. He's one writer where I find myself either totally disagreeing with him or totally agreeing - but no matter what he does make me think - not a bad thing in todays world.
    --Jack

    Pumpkins, Sports Gene, In a World - Uncle Orson Reviews Everything
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
    He is an excellent writer and, I absolutely agree that most people are
    either going to completely agree or disagree with most of what he writes,
    haha

    In this particular case I have mixed feelings. I'm glad the he acknowledged
    "natural born talent" but as I recall he seemed to think that it was the
    make-or-break factor? He also criticized the 10K hour rule with an
    example of repetitious action, and didn't seem to realize it is about
    10K hours of actually striving to improve the entire time. Finally,
    while I admit that many people only really try and enjoy things that
    they discover they have natural talent for, that is not only the case.

    In fact, many champions have often explained how terrible they were
    when they started something, but their refusal to quit and their
    sheer determination to improve is what made "all the difference".
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    • Profile picture of the author sterlingtek
      Yes an no

      To be world class in anything takes innate talent, drive, discipline, and time. This is one level above expert but is at the boundaries that things become clear.

      The people that I have have seen at this level have one thing in common, they practice always learning and applying things from their own minds and borrowing from other subjects. None of them consider that they have learned it all and all of them continue to stretch their understanding and apply it to other fields, and bring back fruits from other field to their own.

      The other thing that is crucial is uninterrupted time

      A highly motivated person with talent and time can become an expert faster because of the lack of distractions. Distractions and interruptions kill not just the time that they take up, but also the train of thought and the motivation to get it finished now. Take a look at what Newton did during the plague.

      If you want to be an expert faster turn off the cell phone, tv, etc.. and get to it
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