Do you believe in the 10 000 hours rule ?

I think for real expertise, it's pretty valid.

Of course, you can learn many skills in a far shorter time. I mean you can learn CPR in an hour.

But real expertise in a broader area? Sure, 10,000 hours sounds right. That's about 10 years of three hours a day.

nice comments, but you didn't mention what is your skill/skills (business related) that you have practiced for 10 000 hours ?

I'd appreciate if you share. And also what is your success level.

For me its languages - translating, writing, communicating etc.

A master knows that time is illusory and the hours he consumes are as relevant as a ruler to measure them.

I was inferring a meaning that some people could assume, but...you are right, it isn't there. One of the dictionary definitions of Mastery is Full command of a subject of study. I was talking about that definition.

So you and I are saying virtually the same thing? I think you're nitpicking.

But I did it first, so that makes me a better nitpicker.... Nay, a Master Nitpicker.

Claude "Master Nitpicker" Whitacre

Considering the topic of this thread, this is an unintentionally funny comment.

Clapton has said he tried to learn how to play Robert Johnson's 32/20 Blues for decades and could never get it right. Keith Richards has also struggled with 32-20 blues for years.

Yet, as legend has it, Robert Johnson learned to play guitar in 6 months. History tells us it wasn't much longer than that. After begging Willie Brown and Son House to teach him how to play guitar and they declined, Johnson disappeared for a short time, only to return as the best blues guitar player in Mississippi.

Hence, the legend of selling his soul to the Devil at the Crossroads in exchange for being the best guitar player.

Clapton has had well over 10,000 hours to try to play something that Robert Johnson took a much shorter time to actually play.

I also think many people confuse talent and skill. Talent can't be taught or learned, only enhanced. Skills can be taught and learned. And, different skills take different amounts of time to master and there's no "one size fits all".

Steve; We all know people with a decade of experience who are incompetent.

The "10,000 hour idea" assumes that the time is spent improving in the task, not just doing the task.

And the reason the examples aren't 8 hour days is because after a few hours, learning becomes harder. The law of diminishing returns sets in. Studying for 8 hours is not twice as good as studying for 4 hours. It may not be better at all.

Anyway, that's all in the book. A good read.

I agree. I studied selling, and psychology for ten years, and I'll never be good enough for the NBA.

Yeah, The "Ten year" figure is like the "80/20 Rule". It's a useful rule, but it's just a broad estimate. And Gladwell assumes the desire to improve....and having potential.

We all know people with 20 years experience in a business, who still make rookie mistakes. And are just doing a job.

Mike; That's because, from their perspective, expertise is set at a higher standard. Some Karateka see practitioners in their fifties as just entering their prime.

Steven Seagal is faster and better now, in his sixties, than he was in his thirties. Big belly and all.

His muscles are slower...but he moves more efficiently, so the techniques are faster. At 58, I'm better than I was (in my martial art) after 20 years of practice. Eventually you slow down faster than you improve...and progress stops. But for many martial artists (The striking arts anyway) that doesn't happen until the seventies, or illness.

Agreed.

It perhaps assumes that there's both some aptitude and some interest and a great deal of enthusiasm in the activity/subject concerned. As I remember, Gladwell describes the 10,000 hours more as "the amount of time to become one of the best in the world", not so much as "the amount of time to become proficient/professional".

I agree with the comment above that The Beatles example is perhaps an unfortunate one, but there are countless others, and the book makes very much more interesting reading than is actually suggested by the conversation here. I learned a lot from it (as I did from his other books).

Oh, I'm only too happy to answer this one...


I'm going to try to illustrate the idea by explaining a
technique from karate.

In karate, mawashigeri ("Roundhouse kick") is often the
third kick that someone learns, and it is usually the first
technique that new karateka (students of karate) really
have trouble with learning to do correctly.

The reason is that while it seems simple to people who
have been doing it for years, there are actually quite
a few movements that are foreign to new karateka, and
they all have to happen in the correct order.

First, the kicker shifts his weight forward, starting
at the hips. His kicking leg (let's say the rear leg)
is lifted, toes pointed down and knees pointed at the
target (let's say the ribs). The rear hip thrusts forward
in front, and simultaneously the leg the kicker is standing
on bends just enough so that the tip of that knee is over
(but not beyond!) his toes. At the right moment for
maximum force, he pivots on his toes and, more importantly,
turns his hips "over" and "down" while thrusting his
foot out like a whip. In this case, we'll say that he
intends to kick with the ball of his foot under his
big toe, which also requires that the angle be correct
so that he doesn't jam his toes into the ribs instead,
hurting himself.

Now, let's start with physical conditioning. Presumably,
by the time a karateka is learning this technique, he will
have the endurance to practice it a couple of hundred times
per day. But even then he may find that he doesn't have
enough strength in the ankle of his supporting leg to
keep it from "wobbling" and losing power. So now he needs
to do exercises to strengthen that.

Usually, the biggest problem at first is a lack of hip power.
Most people have very little power in turning their hips,
and that takes years of specific exercises. Without
flexibility and power, it is very difficult to turn your
hips "over and down" while thrusting the kicking leg
(and your weight!) forward.

I'm not going to labor on about the rest of the details,
those will begin my point to all of this. Someone who
is a very skilled dancer probably already has a lot
of flexibility and leg strength. They probably have
excellent ability to pivot and whip their leg in the proper
direction. You could probably pick up on the fundamentals
of movement and the timing of putting them all together
very quickly.

But, can you actually kick with mawashigeri? No, not yet.
Because you haven't learned to slam your foot into something
hard without hurting it yet. If you've never spent time
learning to hit properly, you can really jam your joints
up and ruin them.

The biggest problem among beginners-- even dancers and
gymnasts-- is the connection of the kicking foot with the
ribs. Getting the foot into the proper position is easy
enough for them-- no broken toes in their experience!
But they either have their foot and ankle too lose on impact,
or worse they have it too stiff. (Imagine if the wings
of an airplane were not flexible, they would be torn off
in the wind!)

Now, a person who has been an athlete can learn this technique
faster than one who has not. And a gymnast or a dancer
can learn this far *very* quickly. But can you kick now?

NO!

Next you have to learn the distance of the kick. You have
to learn it more intimately than you ever have before. For
example, you can tell by looking if something is in reach
of your hand, but can you judge with perfect distance if
it is in reach of your foot? Without over-extending yourself
and losing your balance? Can you slowly lift your leg,
flip the light switch with your toe, and the slowly lower
your leg, all without losing balance or power of position?

You'll have to learn to intuitively know whether or not
a target is just slightly too far, slightly close enough,
or just in the perfect distance.

If you were a dancer, that will be relatively easy for you
to get to this level with less practice than most people.

NOW can you kick? NO!

Because now you have to learn how to do it against a
moving target that is also trying to hit you back.

Now you're out of an area that your dancing experience
can help you with directly. Of course, if you've danced
with a partner quite a bit, that ability to read them
and pick up on details might be helpful, because you can
learn how to do it when someone is working against you,
rather than with you. Just a little more quickly.

So you spend (a lot!) of time, probably at the very
least a couple of thousand hours, learning to do that
perfectly. Not actually sparring or fighting, just doing
drills to be able to use the technique on a moving target
that is trying to keep you from doing it.

NOW can you kick? Yeah, kind of...
This is the point where most people stop. They can
use mawashigeri and several other techniques. Sometimes
they get a little tricky with it, maybe switch up targets,
or fake the technique and use something else. Most people
just learn to do it faster and harder and faster and harder.
And after a few years of practicing the kick a couple of
hundred times per day, their hips and legs are like pistons,
and they can score with the kick reasonably often, and most
people would call them an "expert". You've done about
a thousand hours of practice and perhaps earned a
"black belt". But no serious budoka would consider
you anywhere near being an expert.


Now would the dancer really be an expert in at least in mawashigeri? No!
AND, their advantage of being a dancer has ended.
Now they are in a world they know nothing about.

Now you have to learn how to apply the kick with Noboashi.
That means learning to "stretch out" your enemy.
Remember back when you had to learn the perfect distance
for your kick? Whether it was just a fraction of an inch
too far away, or too close, to be effective? Well, now
you have to know how to judge that for the opponent's
techniques, too.

Because what you want to do is be just a fraction of an
inch outside of his range. Then lean forward with your
upper body by about half an inch, and take a very aggressive
attitude. This will make him feel like you are closer
than you are, and he will think you are in range. Now
he will launch his attack, but you come back to a normal
position only a fraction of an inch back, throwing off
his attack and making it slightly slower, and leaving him
off balance. And of course you do this while simultaneously
putting yourself into the perfect position and distance
for your own kick.

Well, that took a few years. Now are you an "expert"? No!
Next you need to learn to use it with Tokoshi. Now you're
going to learn how to attack when the opponent really is
too far away. Most people take a small step, and then
a larger one, so that they can put all of their weight and
power into the attack. That's great and fine, but it's slower
than taking the big step first, and then a small step
before attacking. So now you have to learn to take a big
step, then a small one, and pivot into your mawashigeri
from the perfect distance. Your dancing may help you
with that, but you also have to master it while he is
trying to hit you back.

And, because you took the big step first, you had less
weight to go into the kick, which means it had less power.
So now you have to go back and do more exercises to strengthen
your hips so that you can hit harder, AND learn to recover
into a position that allows you to follow up with another
attack if necessary.

Now are you an "Expert", even with this one technique!? No!
Most Budo require that you learn quite a few tactics for
applying every single technique. (Notice that the two
that I described above, Nobashi and Tokoshi, both had
to do with manipulating distance... I did that because
they are easy to explain. But there are also dozens
more about distance, as well as timing, momentum, deception, etc.)

Even after you master the physical technique and the
ability to apply it with various tactics, NOW are you an "expert"?
NO!!! Because you still haven't mastered the ability to
read your opponent and see how he will try to counter.

Why is he just standing there in perfect range of your mawashigeri?
Does he not know any better? Or is he about to fall into
Sanchin, a very powerful stance that allows him to absorb
even heavy blows, with his elbows just down to cover his
ribs so that they "spike" your incoming foot, breaking several small
bones and dislocating your toes?

And now that you hesitated because of that, what is he
doing next, as he steals that moment from you and starts
his own attack? Can you put him back on the defensive?
How do you keep him making mistakes in fear of your mawashigeri,
so that he opens himself for another technique, perhaps?


There are deeper levels that I'm not sure I can explain in words.
But I think anyone who has read this really understands my point now?


Now, that has been a short trip of several years,
all with *a single technique*. The karateka, of course,
is attempting to learn several techniques at once.

For a little more perspective, Miyamoto Musashi said that it takes
about 10,000 hours to learn the basics, and 30,000 to master them.
Most modern budoka agree that it takes about 10,000 hours to
master a very simple technique, although you can probably master
just the physical movements in only 10K repetitions, even less
if you are a good dancer... You won't be able to actually apply
the technique, especially under extremely stressful conditions
where your life may be on the line and the other person is a moving
target that is also trying to hurt you back.


Now once you are a master of something, you can certainly
pick up on other skills very quickly. I have been playing
chess and go for decades, so when I started playing backgammon
last week, people were accusing me of having played before.
But the simple fact is that I have little doubt someone like
Alexa, who has played some 5000+ hours, would make short work
of me.

Before my wife passed away, she convinced me to learn to dance.
I was surprised at how quickly I picked up many of the basics
when I struggled with them the last time I tried-- when I was 10.
Decades of martial arts made it far easier, but even now I still would
never win a dancing competition, nor would any serious
practitioner of dance consider me an "expert", despite the
fact that I have become a very good dancer in a very
short period of time. There are just far too many details
that I don't know, probably things I've never thought of or
imagined yet.



Keep in mind that Malcolm Gladwell doesn't really write for the
general public. Not really. His strategy is to get the CEOs
and executives of Fortune 500+ companies to love his books.
Then he convinces them that their company will be better if they
make them required reading for their upper level management.
Then middle level management. And voila!
Viral word of mouth marketing!


Sure, if you have some "similar" experience or skill, you can learn
some of the fundamentals faster. If you learn *how to learn*
then you can apply some accelerated learning techniques to
learn the fundamentals faster. And if you know how to cheat
by using steroids and dropping weight before the weigh-ins,
then put it back on right before the fight like Tim Ferris used
to do, well yeah, you can have what seems like success to
most people. :rolleyes::p

My challenge to you is that such a definition of "expert" is weak, at best.

Sorry you had to "drill down into it"... I tried to make it clear.
I really need to improve my ability to communicate. I envy
those people who can say in a sentence or two everything
that it takes me an essay to try to say, LOL


Well, a "professional" is just someone who gets paid for their work.
So yeah, by the end of the day I can have a job at the burger joint
and be a "pro" burger maker.


No, of course not.


Yes, it is absolutely worth it. What "risk"?


Yeah, for many things. I mean, I never expect to be an "expert"
at watching TV.


Outside of Hollywood, I've never heard of anyone outsourcing
their ability in martial arts before? :p


Very true. That is one of the things I chose not to labor on about
in my previous post, but in Budo we teach senior students about
Hanashi, or "Letting Go". The idea is that even thought patterns
have inertia and you can get stuck trying ineffective methods, so
you have to teach yourself to break those patterns and "Renew"
your view of the situation.

I'd like to point out that this is almost never something that a
beginner or mediocre student faces... It is the result of repeated
success with something, and the inability to recognize ahead
of time that it has stopped working.

The beauty of strategy is that it applies to everything.
I'm not debating what you are saying, in a great many things
in our life there is no actual "need" to get to the level of an "expert"
because, in Internet Marketing for example, you can probably
make a decent amount of money without ever getting that far.

And in any form of making money, most people probably aren't
doing it because they love the activity itself, so why would they
put so much effort into it? They would rather spend that time
hunting precious stones.

My point is that being good enough to make money and be
a "professional" does not make you an "expert", and the idea
of putting in at least 10,000 hours is absolutely valid, when you
are talking about something that you really want to master.

Sticking with the martial arts analogy, I meet a lot of "tourists".
They skip around from one martial art to another, often every
six months or so, always looking for the one that is going to give
them the skills they need to be invincible and unstoppable, and
never finding them.

"Acres of Diamonds" and all that.


Yeah, diminishing returns is an ancient concept. But an "expert"
accepts that, and keeps on pushing and collecting all of those tiny
details and advantages over the years and decades, and they add up.
That's what sets him or her apart from the "pros".

At this point I'm going to have to openly admit to myself that I have a negative
bias toward Tim Ferris. Before the previous thread, I never heard of him
as anything other than a martial artist, and he was a cheater, plain and simple.

When a man or woman cheats in martial arts competition, I view it as
a weakness of character that most likely permeates everything else in
their life. The 4-Hour Work Week and his interviews seem to me like
he is doing the same thing... Seeking short-cuts and cheating his way
to success.

I could just never aim that low, nor take the advice of anyone who does.

There always Outliers, and to be fair, he grew-up in the 5th Ward
in the 50's and 60's!

Yes an no

To be world class in anything takes innate talent, drive, discipline, and time. This is one level above expert but is at the boundaries that things become clear.

The people that I have have seen at this level have one thing in common, they practice always learning and applying things from their own minds and borrowing from other subjects. None of them consider that they have learned it all and all of them continue to stretch their understanding and apply it to other fields, and bring back fruits from other field to their own.

The other thing that is crucial is uninterrupted time

A highly motivated person with talent and time can become an expert faster because of the lack of distractions. Distractions and interruptions kill not just the time that they take up, but also the train of thought and the motivation to get it finished now. Take a look at what Newton did during the plague.

If you want to be an expert faster turn off the cell phone, tv, etc.. and get to it