Education in the US - no wonder we're failing!

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6-year-old suspended for kissing girl, accused of sexual harassment - CNN.com

Six yr old kissed his girlfriend (it's mutual) on the cheek - got in trouble. Later he kissed her on the hand - and the school labeled him for sexual harassment.

The US just placed even lower than previously on a global education list and the response from a teacher union rep on TV was "this is proof we need to pay teachers more".

For this? Really?

In spite of claims by the teacher unions, if US teacher were paid at the same rate as other countries - US teachers would take a 30% pay cut. oops

When social correctness is the primary focus of education - the kids lose. This poor little' boy's mom is at a loss - now he's asking her "what's sex?"
  • Profile picture of the author ThomM
    On the news the other night, they reported about a 10 year old girl that was suspended for making believe she had a bow and arrow.
    Unfortunately reports like this are more common then uncommon.
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    • Profile picture of the author lcombs
      Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

      On the news the other night, they reported about a 10 year old girl that was suspended for making believe she had a bow and arrow.
      Unfortunately reports like this are more common then uncommon.
      They flip out over harmless stuff like that.

      But, when it comes to the actual learning, failure IS an option.
      You still pass go. You still collect your $200.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

      On the news the other night, they reported about a 10 year old girl that was suspended for making believe she had a bow and arrow.
      Unfortunately reports like this are more common then uncommon.
      OH, this is going to get WORSE!!!!!! In one show, that apparently did well, the main protagonist is a FEMALE who is an EXPERT at ARCHERY! And don't forget about the new NERF product!

      Nerf Rebelle Heartbreaker Bow Phoenix | Outdoor Games for ages 8 YEARS & UP | Hasbro

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author socialentry
    They should replace teachers with computers.

    And base the computers on the personality of Ludwig Wittgenstein
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    • Profile picture of the author DarioMontesdeOca
      Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

      They should replace teachers with computers.

      And base the computers on the personality of Ludwig Wittgenstein
      Peter Diamandis talks about this briefly. Education looks like it needs an entire revamp, and it's stories like the original poster placed that makes modern day schools look ridiculous.
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
    Well, unfortunately this type of thing is less the teachers fault than skittish school administrators fearful of lawsuits by sue-happy people and attorneys.

    I'm running out of tolerance for zero-tolerance policies
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
    I watched that story on the TV news last night, crazy world we live in.

    STOP LOOKING AT ME, will be the new stalking law. :rolleyes:
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  • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
    Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

    In spite of claims by the teacher unions, if US teacher were paid at the same rate as other countries - US teachers would take a 30% pay cut. oops
    Hmm. Is that including all countries including third world? If so, I'm not surprised they would get a pay cut, but from what I have read the US teachers' salary doesn't rank very high when compared to developed comparable economies.
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
      Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

      Hmm. Is that including all countries including third world? If so, I'm not surprised they would get a pay cut, but from what I have read the US teachers' salary doesn't rank very high when compared to developed comparable economies.
      The number varies widely depending on the survey, the part of the country the teacher is from and how long they've been teaching, but we are by no means the highest paid teachers. Some have us ranked 22nd out of 27 countries compared.

      Which I find ironic since where I live in NY out of the almost $11,000 per year we pay in taxes, almost $7,000 is the school tax with the rest divvied up between property, town and county taxes.

      Tell me there's no waste spending going on...
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        Is that including all countries including third world?
        No - the article I read that gave that number referred to the top 20 countries on the education list. We weren't the worst - UK would need to reduce salaries by 50%. The U.S. is among the top paying countries that have average teacher pay in the $40k range.

        I also think the global ratings are skewed as the study has allowed China especially to list the student results of a few big cities rather than the overall educational level throughout the country.

        It's not that we pay too much - we don't. But we don't get enough for what we pay both in teachers and in the educational system. The U.S. is fifth when it comes to money spent per student -throwing money at a problem isn't the answer. I think we all know that.

        We have hampered teachers with compulsory testing, politically correct and socially correct mandates. At the same time teacher unions have gotten in their own way with refusal to allow merit based pay and insisting on a continuation of the outdated tenure system.

        It's up to the public to recognize when common sense has flown the coop as it has in this case. Little boys have flirted with little girls since they were invented...it's not new. What is new is interpreting a childish stolen kiss as a sexual act - because our society views everything as sexually motivated apparently.

        One fact I heard about our educational system was new to me. I haven't vetted the fact myself but one of the educators on the panel said after WWII the US was #1 in the world for students completing education - now we are 22nd in the world due to our drop out rate.

        Then you see a walmart worker explaining "yes, I dropped out of school but I deserve more money than this"....and you start to see how it all plays together.
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      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
        Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

        The number varies widely depending on the survey, the part of the country the teacher is from and how long they've been teaching, but we are by no means the highest paid teachers. Some have us ranked 22nd out of 27 countries compared.

        Which I find ironic since where I live in NY out of the almost $11,000 per year we pay in taxes, almost $7,000 is the school tax with the rest divvied up between property, town and county taxes.

        Tell me there's no waste spending going on...
        Mike look how much our school administrators make.
        Here in the Averill park school district we have around 10 vice-principals who make over $100,000 a year. Then we have 4 principals making over $150,000 a year, plus a district president making over $200,000. The teachers are somewhere around $35,000.
        Now throw in the wonderful Common Core and it starts making sense why we are ranked 26th in Math, 21st in Science, and 17th in reading world wide.
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        • Profile picture of the author yukon
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          Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

          Mike look how much our school administrators make.
          Here in the Averill park school district we have around 10 vice-principals who make over $100,000 a year. Then we have 4 principals making over $150,000 a year, plus a district president making over $200,000. The teachers are somewhere around $35,000.
          Now throw in the wonderful Common Core and it starts making sense why we are ranked 26th in Math, 21st in Science, and 17th in reading world wide.
          Shhh..., If they teach anyone math they'll eventually figure out management is overpaid.
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        • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
          Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

          Mike look how much our school administrators make.
          Here in the Averill park school district we have around 10 vice-principals who make over $100,000 a year. Then we have 4 principals making over $150,000 a year, plus a district president making over $200,000. The teachers are somewhere around $35,000.
          Now throw in the wonderful Common Core and it starts making sense why we are ranked 26th in Math, 21st in Science, and 17th in reading world wide.
          I had to hit the thanks button AND quote this - I've been saying for years that one of the biggest problems in public education is the administrative layer. Way overpaid for what they do, and way too many of them.

          People talk about the student/teacher ratio - what about the teacher/administrator ratio?
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
          Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

          Mike look how much our school administrators make.
          Here in the Averill park school district we have around 10 vice-principals who make over $100,000 a year. Then we have 4 principals making over $150,000 a year, plus a district president making over $200,000. The teachers are somewhere around $35,000.
          Now throw in the wonderful Common Core and it starts making sense why we are ranked 26th in Math, 21st in Science, and 17th in reading world wide.
          We're hating common core here. The teachers are starting to revolt just a bit...it's all about the dollars. Not educating the kids.
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      • Profile picture of the author mojojuju
        Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

        Which I find ironic since where I live in NY out of the almost $11,000 per year we pay in taxes, almost $7,000 is the school tax with the rest divvied up between property, town and county taxes.

        Tell me there's no waste spending going on...

        The money required to put an iPad in the hands of every school student has to come from somewhere.
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
          Originally Posted by mojojuju View Post

          The money required to put an iPad in the hands of every school student has to come from somewhere.
          Yeah, well someone took the Ipads from our schools because my son didn't get one
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          • Profile picture of the author mojojuju
            Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

            Yeah, well someone took the Ipads from our schools because my son didn't get one
            That's too bad because iPads in schools have been a big success.
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            • Profile picture of the author seasoned
              Originally Posted by mojojuju View Post

              SERIOUSLY!!!!!!! In the early 1980s, people asked me whether computers would be a good idea for their kids. I said, and YES, this was over THIRTY years ago.... I said SURE, as long as you keep them off the BBS's and games.

              Flash forward 30 years! We are now in 2013! and I will quote two paragraphs from the above link.....

              Instead of solving math problems or doing English homework, as administrators envisioned, more than 300 Los Angeles Unified School District students promptly cracked the security settings and started tweeting, posting to Facebook
              The current day equivalent to 1970-1990 BBS's!

              and playing video games.
              '`Temple Run.' `Subway Surfing.' Oh, and some car racing game I can't remember the name of,' said freshman Stephany Romero, laughing as she described the games she saw fellow Roosevelt High School students playing in class last week.
              GAMES!

              OH YEAH, society has changed a LOT!

              Some things NEVER change! For a computer, it might be a good idea to have a LAN that determines what is needed, and refreshed from a larger source selectively, and a highly proprietary specialized protocol system to access it. OR, they can go with the 1970-2013 technology and have a set of terminals on a lan. NO hacking or modifying! If they want to work at home, they can do it on their OWN system their family has paid for, through a VPN.

              Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by mojojuju View Post

          The money required to put an iPad in the hands of every school student has to come from somewhere.
          ACTUALLY, apple has ALWAYS given STEEP discounts to ANYONE and ANYTHING REMOTELY associated with schools! That means SCHOOLS, TEACHERS, STUDENTS, SCHOOL STORES, ETC....

          ALSO, the fees were HIGH even BEFORE computers. And when I say STEEP discounts, I mean like 75-90%.

          Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author mojojuju
            Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

            ACTUALLY, apple has ALWAYS given STEEP discounts to ANYONE and ANYTHING REMOTELY associated with schools! That means SCHOOLS, TEACHERS, STUDENTS, SCHOOL STORES, ETC....

            ALSO, the fees were HIGH even BEFORE computers. And when I say STEEP discounts, I mean like 75-90%.

            Steve

            It looks like The L.A. Unified School District paid close to $700 per each iPad. Not a good discount for school iPads for them.

            My wife worked at a school where each kid had a nice 10" Android tablet. They were allowed to take the tablets home. I don't know what academic purpose they served, but every time I saw the kids with their "toys" they were using them to play music or video games. They'd break them and get new ones because the school had a good warranty agreement. The school, a private one, went out of business shortly after due to financial reasons.

            I do think schools need to ditch the iPads though and get the kids on to desktop computers and learn to code. Tablets are just too dumbed down in my opinion. Maybe I'm wrong though, and these iPads serve a great purpose in schools. They can take tests on them and do online learning activities..

            Like you said though, Apple has tried to corner the educational market for years. My first computer was an Apple IIe that my dad, a teacher, ganked from work. My first computer experience in school was a PC though. My public school district that I attended only had IBM machines.
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            • Profile picture of the author seasoned
              Originally Posted by mojojuju View Post

              It looks like The L.A. Unified School District paid close to $700 per each iPad. Not a good discount for school iPads for them.
              So WHO stole all the REST of the money!? Apple apparently started it, but now *****ALL***** computer companies do it to a degree. If apple stopped, OTHERS would take over. People that KNEW knew that apple could ALWAYS fall back on customer loyalty from the beneficiaries of what they did. IMAGINE if they hadn't!

              My wife worked at a school where each kid had a nice 10" Android tablet. They were allowed to take the tablets home. I don't know what academic purpose they served, but every time I saw the kids with their "toys" they were using them to play music or video games. They'd break them and get new ones because the school had a good warranty agreement. The school, a private one, went out of business shortly after due to financial reasons.
              YEP! The STUDENTS should pay for those hurt outside of manufacturing defects!

              I do think schools need to ditch the iPads though and get the kids on to desktop computers and learn to code. Tablets are just too dumbed down in my opinion. Maybe I'm wrong though, and these iPads serve a great purpose in schools. They can take tests on them and do online learning activities..
              OK, get them raspberry PIs! NO starter kit, etc... Just the PI! Raspberry Pi Model A 256MB RAM ID: 1344 - $29.95 : Adafruit Industries, Unique & fun DIY electronics and kits

              It is FAR more capable than the first laptop I used in 1999! It runs LINUX and ANDROID, and has TONS of support! Of course, it can't play ANY games from a store, and it takes some work to get some other games to work. You can program in PERL, C, ADA, FORTRAN, PHP, etc.... And their ACHIEVED goal was to do ALL that for less than $30USD!!!!! You can program GUI, WEB, etc...

              Nice and INEXPENSIVE! And MADE for education!

              Like you said though, Apple has tried to corner the educational market for years. My first computer was an Apple IIe that my dad, a teacher, ganked from work. My first computer experience in school was a PC though. My public school district that I attended only had IBM machines.
              WOW! GANK! I learned a new word! ANOTHER reason why they should NOT so readily pay!

              Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

    6-year-old suspended for kissing girl, accused of sexual harassment - CNN.com

    Six yr old kissed his girlfriend (it's mutual) on the cheek - got in trouble. Later he kissed her on the hand - and the school labeled him for sexual harassment.

    The US just placed even lower than previously on a global education list and the response from a teacher union rep on TV was "this is proof we need to pay teachers more".

    For this? Really?

    In spite of claims by the teacher unions, if US teacher were paid at the same rate as other countries - US teachers would take a 30% pay cut. oops

    When social correctness is the primary focus of education - the kids lose. This poor little' boy's mom is at a loss - now he's asking her "what's sex?"
    What goes on?

    I actually did the above in the first grade - in a remote area of the playground and without any apparent repercussions.

    Myself and another young gent were vying for her favor and I won the sweepstakes with a soft, sweet and gentle kiss on the cheek oh! (I was a gent and asked for permission first)

    R., my worthy adversary was perhaps beaten to the punch and has never lived it down to this day as I would move out of that neighborhood but we would hook up again in high school and beyond.

    Her name started with a J. and it was just that one sweet kiss.

    Did the teacher really say that?

    I'm not sure how teachers are paid verses other nations but teachers do not need to be in the business of buying supplies for their students.

    Funding for education is all over the map but we as a nation can and should find a way to...

    If every child in the USA received early childhood education, it would a great help the bottom line in more ways than one.

    I hear most of the other countries that are kicking our tails these days are doing some type of early childhood education.

    That's one thing we can do as a nation if we're serious about turning the situation around.


    BTW... she really was sweet.


    How would I answer the question? What is sex?


    It's something older people do, it is not for kids.

    And you should not be talking or thinking about it because it's not for you.


    Did the teacher really say that?
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    As long as our education system is run by federal government it will consist of more indoctrination than education. I'm more worried about that than the pay scale. My sister is a teacher - there is so much she is not ALLOWED to teach her students it's just mind boggling. She was also actually fired once for racism when she put a little black boy in the corner for being disruptive....when she pulled out a pic of the man she lived with (he was black) it made not one whit of difference to anyone - she was accused of bigotry and let go.

    People also talk about "early education" as being a key to brighter kids. Not in this fiasco of an indoctrination-disguised-as-educational system it's not. I sure wouldn't want my kids being indoctrinated even early than usual. But then, if I had a kid, it wouldn't be in the public ed system anyway. No way. My dad was a school administrator and I can see the clear cut difference between our schools before the "Department of Ed" took over ruling every damned school in the country and afterwards. It's astounding.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

    6-year-old suspended for kissing girl, accused of sexual harassment - CNN.com
    Six yr old kissed his girlfriend (it's mutual) on the cheek - got in trouble.
    Actually, they passed a law stating that it is ILLEGAL for a minor girl to give her consent! Of course, the law DOES specify that the male has to be considered a NON-MINOR. So a 17yo boy COULD be accused of rape of a 17yo girl. But SIX!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!? GIVE ME A BREAK!

    Later he kissed her on the hand - and the school labeled him for sexual harassment.
    WOW! I guess they are lucky they aren't in germany! Hand-kissing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The US just placed even lower than previously on a global education list and the response from a teacher union rep on TV was "this is proof we need to pay teachers more".

    For this? Really?
    We pay them PLENTY! And some of the better areas actually pay LESS!!!!!!

    In spite of claims by the teacher unions, if US teacher were paid at the same rate as other countries - US teachers would take a 30% pay cut. oops

    When social correctness is the primary focus of education - the kids lose. This poor little' boy's mom is at a loss - now he's asking her "what's sex?"
    He probably just liked her, and maybe even copied behavior. The teachers may have just inserted THEIR dirty minds and "thoughts" and colored his behavior accordingly. If they had a sleepover or something they would probably attribute a normal action to mean that he was having "dirty" thoughts, etc.... even though he wouldn't be thinking anything of the sort.

    Seriously, I used to wonder if adults were even HUMAN since I saw so many indications that kids decades earlier were the same, and adults never seemed to realize it.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
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    Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

    Anyone dumb enough to send his child to a public school deserves what he gets.
    That's not practical.

    There's counties that only have a single high school (for the entire county).
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      That's not practical.

      There's counties that only have a single high school (for the entire county).
      THAT'S why so many choose a home because of the schools!

      Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author yukon
        Banned
        Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

        THAT'S why so many choose a home because of the schools!

        Steve
        Still not practical when both parents are working because the family enjoys the comfort of having a roof over their head & something to eat.

        [edit]
        I guess you meant homeschooling.
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    • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      That's not practical.

      There's counties that only have a single high school (for the entire county).

      You are so right.

      There are plenty of public schools across the country and on all levels that have great track records.

      Often, it depends on where the school is located more than anything else.
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    • Profile picture of the author yukon
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      Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

      Ah, the public school as warehouse for morons.

      I see.

      We have to do something with them, right?
      You obviously live in a city that has a bunch of school options.

      Sorry, the entire world isn't one big city. There's no private schools in the county I live in, kids traveling 60 miles round trip isn't practical (5 days a week).
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
        Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

        Doesn't matter where you live. You're the one responsible for your child's education. If you want to palm your responsibility off on the state, don't be surprised when you don't like the results.

        The idea of sending a child off to a factory-based school 8 hours a day is, in itself, child abuse. What are you preparing them for, a nice life as a wage slave?

        If you left them alone and gave them no instruction, they would learn more than they would at a public school. Our public school system is a cesspool. There's no fixing it. It's outmoded and attracts the dregs of our workforce into it. People who could not possibly function in a business environment find their niche in the public school system.

        No one who cares about his children should send them there.

        LOL - where did you go to school?

        I agree that public school may not be the BEST option - for those who actually HAVE options. But they aren't that bad here. You simply have to be an involved parent. Go to the school board meetings. Question the teachers and administrators when necessary.

        How is the view from the mighty tower anyway? If you home school(ed) your kids, well good for you. You obviously had that option. Single parents, parents who both work out of necessity - be as judgmental as you want - but they have no options. It's true parents are responsible for their kids education. But they are also responsible for feeding them. Keeping a roof...well, you get it.

        And if you tell me you have no kids, well then your opinion here doesn't weigh much.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          If you left them alone and gave them no instruction, they would learn more than they would at a public school.
          Maybe that's true in Chicago but isn't true everywhere.

          Unfortunately, the trend to control by the feds of schools everywhere and the standardization of teaching and testing is more likely to bring the good schools down than to lift bad schools up.

          There are public schools where students come first and where excellence is encouraged. If you don't know about them it's because they aren't in the news for doing stupid stuff like treating normal childish behavior as a threat to society.
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          • Profile picture of the author ThomM
            Odd how the drastic drop in kids' test scores coincides with the federal takeover of education, the decline of standards in Schools of Education, and the rise of "teaching" as a profession, isn't it?
            That right there is the major problem with our school system.
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            • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
              Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

              That right there is the major problem with our school system.

              I keep hearing that the decline in American education has coincided with the federalies involvement.


              Is there any data to back that up or is that just another...
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              • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                I keep hearing that the decline in American education has coincided with the federalies involvement.


                Id there any data to back that up or is that just another...

                And.....here we go.
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                If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five minutes.

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                • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                  Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                  And.....here we go.

                  If it's not too much trouble, I reserve the right to challenge anything said in here.

                  I hope that's OK with you - LOL!
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                  • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                    Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                    If it's not too much trouble, I reserve the right to challenge anything said in here.

                    I hope that's OK with you - LOL!

                    Yep, we all know how well that's worked out for you in the past. LOL!

                    And I reserve the right to occasionally make asides when you start your ways.
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                    • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                      Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                      Yep, we all know how well that's worked out for you in the past. LOL!

                      And I reserve the right to occasionally make asides when you start your ways.

                      If you're talking about me getting banned for a couple weeks, it wasn't like it was anything close to a death sentence.


                      My ways???

                      I have no problem challenging/questioning what is said in this forum.

                      You do what you do here, and I shall do the same.
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                      • Profile picture of the author meepo
                        Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                        ...You do what you do here, and I shall do the same.
                        Don't you think one Dan Riffle is enough? Riffleception... riffles within riffles within riffles...

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                      • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                        Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                        If you're talking about me getting banned for a couple weeks, it wasn't like it was anything close to a death sentence.
                        Just one time?

                        You do what you do here, and I shall do the same.
                        Oh, absolutely.
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                    • Profile picture of the author DarioMontesdeOca
                      Originally Posted by karaiblleac View Post

                      Children are hardly horses, lol But say we did close the school system "cold". What do you think would happen?
                      Many kids would be very happy and parents would be lost and confused
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              • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                Ken C - I'm just curious - do you have children? I'm asking because your views are much the same as some of my childless friends and I've always wondered how they came to the conclusion children will educate themselves if left to it.


                everyone has choices, don't they?
                True, but most people have to prioritize, too.

                What isn't mentioned is that a great school won't help a disinterested student. A good student with supportive/involved parents can excel in a school that is not "top tier".
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                • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                  Hmm. You have a lot of interesting things to say about this subject Ken, but I'm not buying that kids aren't forced to learn and do learn in the process of being forced. How many kids really are interested in Algebra for example? Yet, they have been and are "forced" to learn it and some even use it as adults.

                  Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

                  No one in the history of the world has been educated by force.

                  Schools have become babysitters and warehouses for the young.

                  Think about it yourself. You learn things because they interest you, not because someone says you have to, no?

                  Why are kids any different?
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                  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                    I'd call it learning by "expectation" rather than by force.

                    There are certain things adults are expected to know - and other things they need to know to live in the real world, hold down a job, etc.

                    Left alone, most of us would happily learn more about topics that interest us - but we'd ignore topics that didn't entertain us or were harder for us to grasp.

                    It takes good teachers - no matter what educational facility used - to teach history or geography or sociology in a way that makes it interesting. Private schools have never enjoyed a reputation of having the best teachers but they often have better curricula and higher expectations.
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                    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                      For many kids meeting expectations is enough. It was for me. However, many kids need something more to force them to meet those expectations and those things are consequences. To me this is being forced to learn, which isn't always a bad thing.
                      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                      I'd call it learning by "expectation" rather than by force.
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                • Profile picture of the author yukon
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

                  Yeah, I have kids. I know kids will educate themselves by observation, as any parent will tell you. Try, some time, to keep them from asking questions and experimenting with their surroundings. The works of Piaget and Montessori bear this out.

                  If kids are disinterested they don't belong in school. No one in the history of the world has been educated by force.

                  Schools have become babysitters and warehouses for the young.

                  Think about it yourself. You learn things because they interest you, not because someone says you have to, no?

                  Why are kids any different?
                  Leaving kids alone at home for hours could have DSS knocking on the door.

                  What's the plan with 7 year old kids, leave them at home while the parent is working so the kid can get that solitary education?

                  Someone has been watching The Cable Guy one too many times, the part where the TV is the babysitter.
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                  • Profile picture of the author yukon
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

                    The plan is for people to make their own plans and be responsible for their own children.

                    That's the plan.
                    Unfortunately everyone doesn't live in a Chicago suburb where there's multiple private schools.

                    Leaving kids home alone isn't an option.
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                    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

                      Unfortunately everyone doesn't live in a Chicago suburb where there's multiple private schools.

                      Leaving kids home alone isn't an option.
                      NOBODY suggested that!

                      Steve
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                      • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
                        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                        This is a bit radical but I've thought we'd do better to educate children in small classes with teachers who are "education facilitators" and other teachers who are "professional educators".
                        I love the entire idea... A wonderful solution.
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              • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                I keep hearing that the decline in American education has coincided with the federalies involvement.


                Is there any data to back that up or is that just another...
                Did you miss this or just ignore it?
                Now throw in the wonderful Common Core and it starts making sense why we are ranked 26th in Math, 21st in Science, and 17th in reading world wide
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                • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                  Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                  Did you miss this or just ignore it?

                  I'm not sure what you're talking about Thom.

                  That quote you just gave me, is that in this thread? Because I didn't see it.

                  If so, please point it out to me.

                  I'm still looking for some hard, unbiased data proving US public education started it's nose dive when the feds decided to lend a hand that has been reiterated here on many occasions.

                  Believe it or not, it won't kill me if it's true.


                  Thanks!

                  TL
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                  • Profile picture of the author meepo
                    Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                    I'm still looking for some hard, unbiased data proving US public education started it's nose dive when the feds decided to lend a hand that has been reiterated here on many occasions.

                    Believe it or not, it won't kill me if it's true.
                    Fwiw, this data does exist and it's not that hard to find.

                    Better yet, if you do your own research you'll find that the US public education system was re-engineered during the late 1800's & early 1900's. To what end, and for what purpose... I'll let you find out.

                    Why? Because a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still. You're saying "prove it to me" - and I'd rather not spend my time that way.

                    Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

                    Said it before and I'll say it again. Not everyone has a choice. Sorry you can't seem to understand that...

                    And frankly, I think it's naive to assume home schooling in all cases would be better than school. I know many parents that shouldn't be parents - let alone teach...
                    I agree with Mike here, it is naive to immediately posit home-schooling as a panacea of education. It works for some people, but it's definitely not the golden answer.
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                  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                    You sir are the one of the good folks in here making the assertion about US education falling off some type of cliff once the federalies got involved right?

                    Once YOUR statement is challenged it should be up to you to provide reasonable proof to back up statement.

                    If the links you provided above were an attempt to provide that proof, the effort has failed bigtime.

                    At best they say the scores etc. have been flat and/or the feds have not spurred better grades/scores etc.

                    The articles also lament the huge amount of money spent etc. but they don't even make the clear assertion that you've made.

                    I hear we don't lead the world in advanced degrees anymore and probably not in college degrees per 1,000 citizens but falling off some sort of cliff with the scores/grade etc. is not what has happened.

                    In relation to the world, others simply have gotten better across the board.



                    The assertion reminds me of...


                    - Federal regulations are causing job loses in a serious way or...

                    - The federalies are stifling innovation etc.

                    Both have nothing to do with reality but some people love saying it.


                    I am in no way saying the US ed system is running on all cylinders but...


                    ...you sir, need to get off your ass.
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                • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                  Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                  Did you miss this or just ignore it?


                  You have given me the impression that you believe that the organization Common Core., is an federal program/initiative.


                  This is a paragraph from an article at Bloomberg


                  Common Core's standards for kindergarten through high school were finalized in June 2010 by...

                  ... the National Governors Association Center for Best Practices...

                  ... and the Council of Chief State School Officers, ...

                  (Not the federalies, the county or city governments)


                  ...according to corestandards.org. Only Alaska, Nebraska, Texas and Virginia didn't approve them, the NCSL said.

                  I wouldn't be surprised if CC has worked with or is now working with the feds but CC is not a federal initiative.



                  Common-Core Standards Have Tea Party Seeing U.S. School Takeover - Bloomberg
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                  • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                    Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                    You have given me the impression that you believe that the organization Common Core., is an federal program/initiative.


                    This is a paragraph from an article at Bloomberg


                    Common Core's standards for kindergarten through high school were finalized in June 2010 by...

                    ... the National Governors Association Center for Best Practices...

                    ... and the Council of Chief State School Officers, ...

                    (Not the federalies, the county or city governments)


                    ...according to corestandards.org. Only Alaska, Nebraska, Texas and Virginia didn't approve them, the NCSL said.

                    I wouldn't be surprised if CC has worked with or is now working with the feds but CC is not a federal initiative.



                    Common-Core Standards Have Tea Party Seeing U.S. School Takeover - Bloomberg
                    No it's not from the dept. of education, but is endorsed by the dept. of defense, which gets one to thinking. Also it is designed to comply to the dept. of educations goals so they can still receive federal money for education. Like all federal programs if you don't do what they want you don't get the money. Naturally the system is set up so that the school districts and states rely on federal funding, so they fall in line.
                    Still it's not doing anything to improve our education system that can be seen.
                    Lets face it todays system doesn't do much to prepare students for the real world.
                    When I was in school in the 50's and 60's we learned things that would prepare a person for adult life. Things like how to set up a budget, write a check, and nutrition were taught alongside algebra, biology, and a second language.
                    You were also encouraged to use your imagination, unlike today when you are suspended for it.
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                    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                      By the way TL, here's a good read on Common Core, that gets into the dept. of educations role in it among other things.
                      Controlling Education from the Top | Pioneer Institute
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                  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                    Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                    You have given me the impression that you believe that the organization Common Core., is an federal program/initiative.


                    This is a paragraph from an article at Bloomberg


                    Common Core’s standards for kindergarten through high school were finalized in June 2010 by...

                    ... the National Governors Association Center for Best Practices...

                    ... and the Council of Chief State School Officers, ...

                    (Not the federalies, the county or city governments)


                    ...according to corestandards.org. Only Alaska, Nebraska, Texas and Virginia didn’t approve them, the NCSL said.

                    I wouldn't be surprised if CC has worked with or is now working with the feds but CC is not a federal initiative.



                    Common-Core Standards Have Tea Party Seeing U.S. School Takeover - Bloomberg
                    ... the National ********Governors******** Association Center for Best Practices...

                    ... and the Council of ********Chief State School Officers********, ...


                    First of all, they *******ARE******* government agents!
                    SECOND, it IS a FEDERAL MANDATE!
                    THIRD, it IS part of a UN treaty!
                    FOURTH, the US FEDERAL GOVERNMENT pays based on adherence to it!

                    HOW MUCH MORE FEDERAL CAN YOU GET!?!?!?!?!?

                    Did you expect that the current president was going to PERSONALLY teach all the kids?

                    By THAT measure, NOTHING is federal!

                    As for algebra, etc? They COULD teach it a LOT better. And some kids DO thirst for information, like Johnny five in short circuit! I DID! To a degree, I STILL do! I have known OTHERS that did and do. I used to read te schematics that used to come with electronc gadgets before I even used them! If I saw a circuit I didn't recognize, I struggled to learn what it was.

                    Steve
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                    • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                      ... the National ********Governors******** Association Center for Best Practices...

                      ... and the Council of ********Chief State School Officers********, ...


                      First of all, they *******ARE******* government agents!
                      SECOND, it IS a FEDERAL MANDATE!
                      THIRD, it IS part of a UN treaty!
                      FOURTH, the US FEDERAL GOVERNMENT pays based on adherence to it!

                      HOW MUCH MORE FEDERAL CAN YOU GET!?!?!?!?!?

                      Did you expect that the current president was going to PERSONALLY teach all the kids?

                      By THAT measure, NOTHING is federal!

                      As for algebra, etc? They COULD teach it a LOT better. And some kids DO thirst for information, like Johnny five in short circuit! I DID! To a degree, I STILL do! I have known OTHERS that did and do. I used to read te schematics that used to come with electronc gadgets before I even used them! If I saw a circuit I didn't recognize, I struggled to learn what it was.

                      Steve
                      I remember you getting the D.C. local gov mixed up with the federalies in a past thread.

                      I believe it was your thread and you titled it "Our gov is doing bla, bla, bla" and it was about something the D.C. local gov was doing.


                      Question???

                      Are you against all gov at all levels?
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                      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                        Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                        I remember you getting the D.C. local gov mixed up with the federalies in a past thread.

                        I believe it was your thread and you titled it "Our gov is doing bla, bla, bla" and it was about something the D.C. local gov was doing.
                        Interesting, I don't remember that. I'll have to check.

                        But "D.C." doesn't have a state, electors, etc... In fact, the private people that moved in want to declare it, and act like it is, a state. They want to have representatives. Their license plate moto is like "No taxation without representation". When I asked about it, I was told that it was basically a demand for representatives. Odd that a GOVERNMENT organization that shouldn't even exist is doing such a thing. I mean only STATES are supposed to do such things and DC, like it or not, IS NOT A STATE! And if it DID become a state, what would we call it? We ALREADY have a state called washington, and states aren't called districts, etc...

                        Question???

                        Are you against all gov at all levels?
                        NOPE, just DISHONEST and/or INEPT governments. You DO know what a supremely large and powerful government is called, don't you?



                        Steve
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                        • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                          Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                          Interesting, I don't remember that. I'll have to check.

                          But "D.C." doesn't have a state, electors, etc... In fact, the private people that moved in want to declare it, and act like it is, a state. They want t have representatives. Their license plate moto is like "No taxation without representation". When I asked about it, I was told that it was basically a demand for representatives. Odd that a GOVERNMENT organization that shouldn't even exist is doing such a thing. I mean only STATES are supposed to do such things and DC, like it or not, IS NOT A STATE! And if it DID become a state, what would we call it? We ALREADY have a state called washington, and states aren't called districts, etc...



                          NOPE, just DISHONEST and/or INEPT governments. You DO know what a supremely large and powerful government is called, don't you?



                          Steve
                          Thanks for the lesson on D.C. I don't think they should be a state because they were not designated as one - just the federal city.


                          Glad to hear you're not against all govs at all levels.

                          I can only wonder what a supremely large and powerful government is called so why don't you fill me in?

                          Thanks!

                          TL
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          • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
            Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

            It's true everywhere. Essentially, all education is self-education. It is a child's natural tendency to grow, discover and learn. It's what they do. That's why childhood is such a wondrous thing. Even the best public schools, and most private schools, too, are based on the factory model.

            Teachers don't teach you anything, you get interested and learn it.

            Public schools do more to derail those natural tendencies than to encourage them.

            If you want to explore this further, Google Horace Mann, Elbert Gary and their effects on public education.

            Our very best schools, the ones that turned out the best-educated people, were governesses, parents, and one-room community schools.

            Tutors are readily available for 10-20 bucks an hour cash. Bright high school seniors and college students are everywhere. You can learn any subject you care to on the internet.

            There's no need for a public education system. It is a dinosaur.
            Ok, this makes sense. Like I said above - you have to be an involved parent. I have 4 kids - 3 are out of public school now. One in the 5th grade. All 4 of them are very curious and enjoy learning. All of them read regularly. And all 4 had/have parents that encourage, guide and teach them what we know.

            But I believe there are fundamentals that I would be no good at teaching them. Whether you want to hear this or not, the schools my kids are/were in gave them a good foundation.

            So - you are right that too many people see school as a day care, and there are many (too many) cynical teachers. This is why it's so important to know everything that goes on in your kids lives and actually take an interest. I think the LACK of this is more alarming than our school system.

            And FWIW - I think ANYTHING the government "takes over" eventually gets destroyed.
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
          Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

          I don't think I'd be too far from wrong to state that I'm the only one here with experience both teaching in the public schools and homeschooling my own children. I know how public schools really work.

          If it's true that you're responsible for teaching your children, and you're perfectly happy leaving that duty to state certified "professionals," don't complain about the end results of your decisions. They don't care how many PTO meetings you attend or how many discussions you have with them. They care about their job security and not making waves. Your kid is one of thousands they will come across in their teaching careers. They've heard hundreds of complaints, suggestions, pieces of advice from parents. They end up in the round file. They'll do what they're told to do by administrators.

          Odd how the drastic drop in kids' test scores coincides with the federal takeover of education, the decline of standards in Schools of Education, and the rise of "teaching" as a profession, isn't it?

          If both parents work, they need a babysitter -- and that's what your public school teachers are. Don't confuse convenience with education.

          Said it before and I'll say it again. Not everyone has a choice. Sorry you can't seem to understand that...

          And frankly, I think it's naive to assume home schooling in all cases would be better than school. I know many parents that shouldn't be parents - let alone teach...



          Edit: I agree with you on the federal takeover. But it still doesn't give people other options. Those are issues that need to be addressed at the voting booths.
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          • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
            Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

            <snippity...> Not everyone has a choice. <...bippity>

            Everyone has choices, don't they? They just aren't always easy. In fact, they can be down right maddenly difficult.

            For example, the person who doesn't have a private school nearby can move. Depending on circumstances, moving may be hard, but, priorities are priorities. If it's important enough, a way can be found.
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            • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
              Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

              Everyone has choices, don't they? They just aren't always easy. In fact, they can be down right maddenly difficult.

              For example, the person who doesn't have a private school nearby can move. Depending on circumstances, moving may be hard, but, priorities are priorities. If it's important enough, a way can be found.
              Choices? Yeah, fine they do. But not always realistic choices.

              My mother raised 4 kids with no help from my father. She had choices too. Welfare or work. She chose work. She gave us a choice. School or get out. We chose school - then I chose the service.

              Home school in a homeless shelter, or public school and an apartment. We got the apartment.

              Sometimes choices are luxuries too. My mother didn't have the luxury of being a stay at home mom.
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              • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

                Choices? Yeah, fine they do. But not always realistic choices.

                My mother raised 4 kids with no help from my father. She had choices too. Welfare or work. She chose work. She gave us a choice. School or get out. We chose school - then I chose the service.

                Home school in a homeless shelter, or public school and an apartment. We got the apartment.

                Sometimes choices are luxuries too. My mother didn't have the luxury of being a stay at home mom.
                Your mother had her priorities in order: feed the kids.

                My main point, however, is that, for most, there are choices for better education for their children. Maybe parents can't afford private school, but can they afford to move into a neighborhood with higher rated public schools? Can they cancel HBO and their data plan and get a tutor for a few hours a month? Can they be more involved?
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                • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
                  Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                  Your mother had her priorities in order: feed the kids.

                  My main point, however, is that, for most, there are choices for better education for their children. Maybe parents can't afford private school, but can they afford to move into a neighborhood with higher rated public schools? Can they cancel HBO and their data plan and get a tutor for a few hours a month? Can they be more involved?
                  I don't argue your point. But we're splitting hairs. If people could afford to move we wouldn't have half the low income housing we have. Better school districts typically mean higher rents.

                  Many already do have little. Referring back to my own story, my mother used to choose to shut off our phone because she couldn't afford it. Cable? Ha. When I was a kid, cable TV was $17 per month and we didn't have that - it was a luxury.

                  Today is a bit different. People always seem to find money for certain things, such as cell phones. But giving up the $59 per month plan will hardly get them in to the higher rent districts either.

                  In my view, more involvement IS the key - and it's affordable. It shouldn't be a "choice" for a parent. It should be second nature. But I digress...
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          • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
            Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

            If you want the state to babysit your children, go for it.

            Trying to justify the incompetence of schools by talking about "those" parents is just plain silly. It's not your job to educate children that aren't yours.
            I'm not arguing your assessment of the "quality" of the education or the incompetence. I was arguing your assumption that everyone has the same choices and opportunities that you did.
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            • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
              Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

              I never assumed that at all. I do know that every parent has the responsibility to educate his child.

              And yes, you can do that and work, too. Who says education has to be structured?

              An hour in the evening is plenty.
              Every night we sit with my 10 year old while he does his homework. When I was young math was my strength, so I get to help him on his math. I have to say, they teach it now WAY different than when I was a kid. I get confused looking at the worksheets they send home.

              So, after a while of trying to "get it" I teach it the way I learned it and he gets it.

              All of my kids are very curious. My 18 year old just started college and she loves it. My oldest 2 (23 and 25) both work. They opted NOT to go to college and they do just fine. My 25 year old is looking to buy a house.

              Anyway, these days I don't know what I find more disheartening - the lack of parental involvement in their kids education, or the complacency of teachers with tenure who are seemingly disinterested. Or simply handcuffed by the administrators and common core...
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              • Profile picture of the author meepo
                Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

                Anyone with a computer can take free classes from MIT.

                It's pretty amazing, if you think about it.
                It's straight-up mind blowing awesome. Just 20 years ago this is what the internet looked like: Computer History for 1993

                Awesome what just 20 years can bring.
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      • Profile picture of the author yukon
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

        Doesn't matter where you live.
        Good grief, you've obviously never lived in a county with one high school & both parents working.

        Your talking silly.
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  • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
    I was literally making gunpowder with a chemistry set (illegal for kids nowadays) and made functioning toy cannons when I was around the age of that girl suspended for harmlessly pretending she had a bow and arrow. If it was nowadays, no doubt I'd be locked up and pumped with pharmaceuticals for my recreational activities.
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  • Profile picture of the author bertyounger
    It's one of those WTF stories the media throws out there on a daily basis to get everyone viewing and riled up about the situation. The one today is about the rich 16 year old kid who while drunk driving killed 4 people and his lawyer blamed it on affluenza. The kid got off from doing jail time. It's a big world and there is a lot of injustice out there.
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  • Profile picture of the author hardraysnight
    a school im involved with sent out a plea to buy 35 ipods

    i sent back 35 writing pads, 35 pencils, 35 pencil sharpeners and 35 rubbers, erasers

    i note i am no longer on their mailing list
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
    1. I attended both private schools and public schools. While the
    private schools were certainly better on the whole, the absolute
    worst teachers that I ever had were in private institutions, and
    the absolute best teachers that I had were in public schools.
    While I got a much better education in private schools, a couple
    of teachers from public schools were some of the greatest
    positive influences on my life, and I consider them close friends
    even to this day.

    2. Whether or not you send your own children to private schools
    so that they can have every advantage you can afford to give them,
    don't you WANT public schools to improve and be more successful?
    Or do you really think you would prefer to live in a nation of ignorant,
    uneducated people?

    3. Sending kids to public school means that you don't care about them
    and you deserve whatever happens, and shouldn't complain about
    it? Seriously? Give me a break... We all pay taxes-- and that includes
    the parents who enroll their children in public schools, who also have
    a voice in this debate. Now if only they would actually back-up their
    opinions by actually getting out and voting...


    OH, you know what else is great about public school? Young
    people seem to learn social skills quite a bit better when they have
    the opportunity to interact with so many of their peers from
    different backgrounds and positions in life. Not so for those who
    are in private schools, or those who are home-schooled.

    Emotional maturity and social awareness make for a much more rounded,
    well-adjusted young adult.... And older adult, come to think of it.



    EDIT: And no matter what you believe about the public vs private debate,
    the idea of a six-year old being labeled for sexual harassment because
    he gave a peer a kiss-- and it wasn't against her wishes-- That's not
    harassment, that's cute!
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    I'm not disagreeing that the public schools are inadequate. However, they could be much better without a single change if parents would motivate their own kids to learn.

    Too many parents are satisfied with just getting the kids to school, and are happy to let the all-day babysitters take over from there. Disinterested parents often have disinterested children.
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
    Ken, I think the point some people are trying to make is that out of
    the 330M+ people in the USA for example, many of them don't have a choice.

    It's true that public schools received massive amounts of funding from
    the likes of Carnegie and Ford with the condition that they would produce
    good workers for their factories. It's also true that public education in our
    country is a terrible mess.

    But I reject the idea that we shouldn't try, just because it's really hard.
    And I reject the idea that it cannot be done. Extraordinarily difficult?
    To be sure! But if you can reach your goals within your own lifetime,
    then you're aiming too low!


    The parallels between prisons and schools are fun to make and discuss,
    but ultimately miss the mark. Consider your claim of hierarchical power structure,
    for example. While students may feel like they have no recourse if they
    are being bullied or abused, they can actually reach out to authorities
    within their school or outside of it, and somebody somewhere will do something.
    Not so for prisoners, who don't get to go home at the end of the day,
    and often times really do not have anyone to protect them from the
    tyrants among their peers.
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
      Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

      I didn't say we shouldn't try.
      Hmm, my fault... I must have read too much into this:

      Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

      Oh, I think if people really knew what public schools have become, they wouldn't send their kids there. I don't believe there's any reason to believe public schools will improve. There's way too much inertia, politics, stupidity and laziness in the way. It's not going to happen.

      Actually, I do agree with you. I would love to abandon the current
      system of education and completely overhaul the way every student
      in the country is taught, using our modern knowledge of the science
      of learning and gear it toward the current and future economy of our
      country.

      But, who else is ready and willing to spend the trillions that it would take
      to actually get that done, here in the real world?
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

        Actually, I do agree with you. I would love to abandon the current
        system of education and completely overhaul the way every student
        in the country is taught, using our modern knowledge of the science
        of learning and gear it toward the current and future economy of our
        country.

        But, who else is ready and willing to spend the trillions that it would take
        to actually get that done, here in the real world?
        What do you mean "who ELSE"? Why not FORCE the people to pay for IMPROVEMENT like the people force people like you AND ME, *********EVERY YEAR********* to pay for propaganda and WASTE!?

        Nearly, and perhaps EVERY year they change ALL MATH BOOKS, ENGLISH BOOKS, HISTORY BOOKS, etc....

        I have a question for the authors. It is a question asked for MILLENIA! *******WHY CAN'T YOU GUYS MAKE UP YOUR MINDS*******? I mean basic math, english, and history are written in stone. They haven't changed. MATH is math because it is EXACT! If 2+2 suddenly equaled 5, what would be the point of learning it? And english is a language to communicate. If accepted pronouns changed, etc.... what would be the point of learning IT!?!???!? HOW could you change history and declare that the Japanese developed the neutron bomb in 1920 and used it against the US and europe and china and now all the world is japanese, etc...?

        If a book worked well for so long, why change it? And if it didn't work, why aren't the supporters doing something ELSE?

        Now I am all for changing the METHOD of teaching, and the teachers themselves, but the substance shouldn't change. Many, for example, have accused the US of teaching mainly US and european history. HEY, SORRY! It IS history! It formed the country. Canada released a coin set recently celebrating the war of 1812! Was it because they are racist, or chose to ignore so much other history? NOPE! It was part of THEIR history! You can't pass a law saying it wasn't, or legislate it out of existence. HEY, in China they learn different history. In africa they certainly do also. That is ALSO the reason why so few schools ANYWHERE teach rhaeto romansch!

        But has anyone determined how much money is WASTED every year just on BOOKS!?!?!? I would not be surprised if the retail cost were as much as over $1000 per student year. That is with NO computer or other materials. Let's say that students in a class that met 5 times a day had to have textbooks that cost $100 each. With 30 students per class, that is $15,000 per class year, for BOOKS! And what of all the people buying the books, selecting, legislation, etc...?

        STILL, the textbooks seem FREE, because the TAX PAYERS pay for that garbage.

        Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
      Seems a wee bit extreme to give up on public education, but OK. I'm listening. What are the other avenues once we dump our education system?

      Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

      It's time we admitted the public school experiment is a failure and looked for other avenues.
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
        Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

        Up to you. Personally, I like the idea of decentralizing schools with communities making tutors (paid and volunteer) available to students. Wouldn't mind seeing the role of libraries expanded with people teaching mini-courses to those who wish to attend.

        The main thing I'd do is eliminate mandatory attendance at public schools. I believe you'd see an immediate improvement in the public schools. At least the people there would be people who want to be there.
        The problem with decentralization is that standards and accountability
        would not be enforced, and people who have no business trying to
        determine what should be in a child's education would have far too
        much power in their local areas... We already have enough silliness
        and ridiculous garbage being taught in schools, the last thing young
        people need is petty little men and women determining what they
        get to learn with zero oversight.

        An increase of tutors would be wonderful, but who is going to pay
        for them? And how many really have time to volunteer, unless they
        are attempting to set themselves up for a future job as a teacher?

        Expanding libraries so that they once again include classes for the
        public would require that certain politicians stop cutting funding
        for libraries. Not-so-ironically, it is usually the very same ones
        that rant against public education (and cut there, too!)

        Getting rid of the mandatory attendance would not fix anything.
        It would just mean far less children would be getting an education
        of any quality at all-- And as Tim & Kay pointed out previously,
        young people being 'expected' to have an education is certainly
        not a bad thing! There are enough ignorant, uneducated people
        in this country without allowing the system to produce them
        without restrictions! :p
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

          The problem with decentralization is that standards and accountability
          would not be enforced, and people who have no business trying to
          determine what should be in a child's education would have far too
          much power in their local areas... We already have enough silliness
          and ridiculous garbage being taught in schools, the last thing young
          people need is petty little men and women determining what they
          get to learn with zero oversight.

          An increase of tutors would be wonderful, but who is going to pay
          for them? And how many really have time to volunteer, unless they
          are attempting to set themselves up for a future job as a teacher?

          Expanding libraries so that they once again include classes for the
          public would require that certain politicians stop cutting funding
          for libraries. Not-so-ironically, it is usually the very same ones
          that rant against public education (and cut there, too!)

          Getting rid of the mandatory attendance would not fix anything.
          It would just mean far less children would be getting an education
          of any quality at all-- And as Tim & Kay pointed out previously,
          young people being 'expected' to have an education is certainly
          not a bad thing! There are enough ignorant, uneducated people
          in this country without allowing the system to produce them
          without restrictions! :p
          As some of you may recall I, just out of curiosity, created a few "amendments" to the constitution that, if passed, would prevent a LOT of the fraud and lawsuits and uncertainty in the US today. I DID have one DIRECTLY covering school. Many others would INDIRECTLY cover it by covering lobbyists, fraud, kickbacks, etc.... Anyway, the one DIRECTLY covering it was pretty clear about basic subjects up to like 7th grade. BTW SOME are required to go to school only until the 8th grade. ALAS, after seeing the idea of common core, I think I would refrain from the idea of centralizing things even as a concept, even if the OTHER amendments WOULD leave supporters as paupers rotting in a REAL prison.

          Of course, it was always a pipe dream since congress would NEVER give up the utopian ideals they have setup for themselves that are such that many now consider them a kind of superclass. Even WARREN BUFFET and BILL GATES must worry about the value of currency, regulations, and what they spend.

          Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
            Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

            What do you mean "who ELSE"?
            Who else, other than myself, would love to see our country spend
            trillions on complete education reform?


            Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

            I mean basic math, english, and history are written in stone. They haven't changed.

            If a book worked well for so long, why change it? And if it didn't work, why aren't the supporters doing something ELSE?
            1. Because there are powerful people in Texas making a LOT of money from it.
            2. Because Math, English, and History are not written in stone.
            3. Because the science of learning itself is improved every day.


            Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

            STILL, the textbooks seem FREE, because the TAX PAYERS pay for that garbage.
            Steve
            Making parents/students pay for books would mean that parents
            would demand to have a more direct say about what is in them.
            Specific right-wing political groups in Texas view this as the absolute
            worst thing that can happen to their own interests.

            I bring up Texas again because they buy so many text books that
            22 other States buy the same exact books so that they can get
            the discount.

            As I've said before many times, the Texas Education Agency
            is full of some of the most greedy, petty, ignorant people that
            I have ever had the displeasure of knowing. A couple of years
            ago Christian Conservatives managed to cut Thomas Jefferson from
            quite a few history books, and even severely limited how many
            times he could be mentioned by teachers in the classroom. This is not
            an exaggeration or a joke.

            It seems even history is not "written in stone".



            Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

            As some of you may recall I, just out of curiosity, created a few "amendments" to the constitution
            Steve
            Are you running for office yet?


            Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

            BTW to all those supporters of the current education claiming it is so great...
            Steve
            I read back through the thread and I didn't see a single person make
            any such claim? Or even one that was close to it?
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            • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
              Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

              As I've said before many times, the Texas Education Agency
              is full of some of the most greedy, petty, ignorant people that
              I have ever had the displeasure of knowing. A couple of years
              ago Christian Conservatives managed to cut Thomas Jefferson from
              quite a few history books, and even severely limited how many
              times he could be mentioned by teachers in the classroom. This is not
              an exaggeration or a joke.
              Yeah, we get the same type of crap here in this NON-Christian Conservative state of New York. It's maddening.
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            • Profile picture of the author seasoned
              Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

              Who else, other than myself, would love to see our country spend
              trillions on complete education reform?
              You imply that money is NOT being spent, but it IS!

              1. Because there are powerful people in Texas making a LOT of money from it.
              2. Because math, English, and History are not written in stone.
              3. Because the science of learning itself is improved every day.
              1? WHO CARES!?!?!? That is NOT a reason!
              2? The basics ARE! HECK, some plat deutsch changed, and became known as Danish, Norwegian, Swedish, Dutsch, or HOCH deutsch(which is often just called german now).
              English is even MORE different, and is simply called germanIC!
              3? GREAT! When are they going to start using techniques developed in the 1950s!?!?!?!? I have some books my FATHER used to learn COBOL. They are smaller and BETTER than about any books you will find today. The company that published them was a little company called International Business Machines, which most people today just call IBM. Apparently they were well known for such materials. And if the "science of learning" in public schools is SO great how come I don't see ANY real techniques being used. They generally use normal rote, and leave students to their own devices.

              Making parents/students pay for books would mean that parents
              would demand to have a more direct say about what is in them.
              Specific right-wing political groups in Texas view this as the absolute
              worst thing that can happen to their own interests.
              That is a LAUGH! So how come CONSERVATIVE shows seem to be the only ones speaking about it? I listen to BOTH sides! BELIEVE ME! A LOT of "SOCCER MOMS" are VERY vocal, and AGAINST the text book garbage!

              I bring up Texas again because they buy so many text books that
              22 other States buy the same exact books so that they can get
              the discount.
              ACTUALLY, they have meetings there every year to introduce the new garbage. I think it is for the whole country. MANY texans are ALSO outraged about it.

              As I've said before many times, the Texas Education Agency
              is full of some of the most greedy, petty, ignorant people that
              I have ever had the displeasure of knowing. A couple of years
              ago Christian Conservatives managed to cut Thomas Jefferson from
              quite a few history books, and even severely limited how many
              times he could be mentioned by teachers in the classroom. This is not
              an exaggeration or a joke.

              It seems even history is not "written in stone".
              I haven't heard about this, but it is likely only PART of the story. As for the claim that jefferson "coined the phrase 'seperation of church and state'", it is NOWHERE in the constitution. HERE is the place that it first appeared:

              Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptists (June 1998) - Library of Congress Information Bulletin

              Though it reads as doubletalk, and is not as clear as I had earlier heard it to be, it sounds like he was trying to convey that he supported the conservative ideal with respect to the first amendment. Perhaps the clearest, though still obscure, indication of this is: "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions". This COULD be interpreted as "I agree with you that one's religious belief and worship is not a matter that any other person should have any say in unless adverse actions have been committed by that worship.".

              It is sad that t reads like an atheist lawyer talking to a pious client.

              And YEAH, history IS written in stone! They can remove it from textbooks, and even change what they say, but what was said WAS SAID! What was done WAS DONE!

              Are you running for office yet?
              I don't have the time, or the desire to have mud slung at me, etc... And for WHAT? My amendments covered wage limits on congressional pay and benefits(Based on national median wages), insider trading, immunity, etc... Presidents have been SHOT for suggesting less. Still, who knows? Maybe one day I will meet one of my relatives that IS in politics. They are generally in city, county and state governments, but they are there. I have one relative, I believe a 2nd cousin, that is in the secret service! I DID once have input on a city council. I was invited by the councilman. even recently heard a relative on another national news broadcast! I only wish I could say they were all conservative. Even the councilman was liberal. BTW He's a senator now.

              Steve
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              • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
                Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                You imply that money is NOT being spent, but it IS!
                Not what I implied at all. What I directly said is that it is not being
                spent on a complete overhaul.


                Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                1? WHO CARES!?!?!? That is NOT a reason!
                You brought it up as one, I was merely responding.


                Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                That is a LAUGH! So how come CONSERVATIVE shows
                No, it is really not funny. I don't care about "shows", I am directly
                involved and am speaking from what I see actually happen.


                Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                I haven't heard about this, but it is likely only PART of the story.
                It is, but I have chosen not to rant on insulting people who are
                not in the forum to defend themselves, despite my temptation.

                As for the religious statements of Thomas Jefferson, I'll leave
                that discussion for another venue.


                Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                I don't have the time, or the desire to have mud slung at me, etc...
                Lack the courage of your stated convictions? It's obviously something
                you're passionate about.
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                • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                  Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

                  Lack the courage of your stated convictions? It's obviously something
                  you're passionate about.
                  That has NOTHING to do with it! I have actually READ the book they use! I have SEEN mud slung at others! If people want to bad mouth me for what I ACTUALLY did or supported, GREAT! But when they start making stuff up, FORGET IT! And they take credit for what they DIDN'T do, etc....

                  I RELISH that I once got a person FIRED by simply not correcting them once! THEY took their ideas, created by their incompetence, and used them to REVEAL that they were incompetent, while trying to take credit for what I did!

                  Another time, I got a company to buckle because THEY tried to claim that an authority was saying/doing things. I found her and told her. She was LIVID, and called them! The next thing I know they are calling ME back to say my name came up in a meeting and they would take care of it ASAP!

                  Unfortunately, historically, I haven't done such things, and the opportunity isn't always so clear.

                  But you can see in the first case how ****I**** would have had my career hurt by an unjust lie. The SECOND time, a woman could have had HER career hurt, and people may have *****DIED***** because of a lie. The lie affected MANY hospitals and health care providers, as well as individuals, WORLD WIDE!

                  In NEITHER case was the mud justified!

                  Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
    Children are hardly horses, lol

    But say we did close the school system "cold". What do you think would happen?
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

      Children are hardly horses, lol

      But say we did close the school system "cold". What do you think would happen?
      First those that depend on govt. to provide for them would become "outraged", complain, and accomplish nothing.
      Those that are more level headed would band together in their communities and work out a way to educate their children. At first I can see volunteers working with the kids, then parents would chip in and pay for teachers who lost their jobs.
      Ultimately parents who actually cared about their children would find a way to educate them with the skills they needed in life.
      Keep in mind we didn't always have a "school system" like we have today. Those that applied themselves did well those that didn't apply themselves didn't. But it required a person (even as a child) to understand that they were only limited by their desire and drive.
      If you didn't have the desire and drive to learn, you didn't learn and suffered for it. Lincoln had very little formal education and is just one of many examples of what you could achieve without our present day school system.
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    • Profile picture of the author Midnight Oil
      Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

      But say we did close the school system "cold". What do you think would happen?
      Homeschoolers already have an extensive network. I think that network would expand rapidly to fill the void. Homeschool franchises would also see accelerated growth.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    BTW to all those supporters of the current education claiming it is so great, look at you tube sometime. Watch the TV a bit. HECK, talk to people on the street. Think of the reasoning behind minimum wage, and some of their arguments for it and about the ideas of the cause of poverty. Talk with some of the teachers! It is really surprising to me that ANYONE thinks the population is even keeping up with the previous norms.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author David Braybrooke
    Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

    6-year-old suspended for kissing girl, accused of sexual harassment - CNN.com

    Six yr old kissed his girlfriend (it's mutual) on the cheek - got in trouble. Later he kissed her on the hand - and the school labeled him for sexual harassment.

    The US just placed even lower than previously on a global education list and the response from a teacher union rep on TV was "this is proof we need to pay teachers more".

    For this? Really?

    In spite of claims by the teacher unions, if US teacher were paid at the same rate as other countries - US teachers would take a 30% pay cut. oops

    When social correctness is the primary focus of education - the kids lose. This poor little' boy's mom is at a loss - now he's asking her "what's sex?"
    I haven't read the whole thread but I'm sure I saw a News article on this incident that detailed that this boy had been in trouble for other behavioural issues as well. The incident of hand-kissing does seem a bit naff to most, when you consider the punishment, but I'm sure he was only suspended for one day.

    I don't know the child, or the parents, or the school, but something about this whole constructed 'media incident' seems hopelessly skewed and blown out of proportion. Let's not sensationalise an event that grown-ups should be doing something constructive about, by finding solutions in a regional way. Why does the whole world have to know about this!? Will it help the children involved, in stabilising their personal development and progress? The media/wider press should have got the 'suspension' IMO!
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Making parents/students pay for books would mean that parents
      would demand to have a more direct say about what is in them.
      Specific right-wing political groups in Texas view this as the absolute
      worst thing that can happen to their own interests.
      Here in New York I had to pay for my kids school supplies and some books. This in a state with if not the highest, close to the highest school taxes in the nation.
      But look at my previous post about the number of administrators in my school district and what they make. That happens to be one of the issues with Common Core. The program is heavy on the administrator side which takes money away from the education side. In turn parents have to pay for things that the schools provided when I was in school. It's also a reason why things like Art, Music, and Athletics, are either gone or going from our schools.
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
        Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

        Here in New York I had to pay for my kids school supplies and some books. This in a state with if not the highest, close to the highest school taxes in the nation.
        But look at my previous post about the number of administrators in my school district and what they make. That happens to be one of the issues with Common Core. The program is heavy on the administrator side which takes money away from the education side. In turn parents have to pay for things that the schools provided when I was in school. It's also a reason why things like Art, Music, and Athletics, are either gone or going from our schools.
        Interesting... I honestly don't know about NY, I can only speak
        from experience on TX.

        Yep, I agree, the ridiculous administration-heavy BS is a large
        part of the problem, but not all of it... At least not here.

        When I was in a particular high school, they spent 12M on football
        and less than 1.5M on academics.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      It WAS blown out of proportion - that's the point. It's wrong to apply adult sexual connotations to a young child's behavior.

      Did he misbehave? Yes - it's the second time he's kissed his "girlfriend" in school. So you punish him for not respecting the boundaries of another person - or for inappropriate behavior in school.

      How tightly wound does someone have to be to look at this and call it "sexual harassment"? If that's what you think of when you look at a 6 yr old - maybe you shouldn't be working in a school.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        It WAS blown out of proportion - that's the point. It's wrong to apply adult sexual connotations to a young child's behavior.

        Did he misbehave? Yes - it's the second time he's kissed his "girlfriend" in school. So you punish him for not respecting the boundaries of another person - or for inappropriate behavior in school.

        How tightly wound does someone have to be to look at this and call it "sexual harassment"? If that's what you think of when you look at a 6 yr old - maybe you shouldn't be working in a school.
        Well, some little kids can act very affectionate. And if she was willing, she WAS his girlfriend, even if there was not actually a relationship of that nature.

        I DO agree that a person that is SO dirty that he or she reads so much into this, they have NO business being around kids.

        Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author David Braybrooke
    What about making laws that stop the press/media from disseminating these types of stories? The child is 6 - I saw him on TV, and his Mother was speaking angrily about it to the cameras. Surely, this type of attention for a 6 year old cannot be beneficial in any way! The real tragedy here, in my opinion, is that responsible adults couldn't work out a proper solution for this, before someone got incensed by it all and felt motivated to contact media sources. Was anyone really thinking about the child here - privacy issues etc.?
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    • Profile picture of the author AprilCT
      These people know nothing about children. Give the boy a few more years and he won't like girls at all until his teens. At 6 years old, they are still babies and these policies are abusive to children. I think it was my youngest son in preschool who had a girlfriend and her mother told me she said she was going to marry my son. We both just laughed and I don't think they've seen each other in many years now.

      This is just all stupid political correctness and zero tolerance policy taken far beyond anything a reasonable and rational person would do. I see this as a big deal made out of nothing. I really feel for that child's mother, too. Send people through a grinder just because you can.

      And the worst part is our children are suffering from their madness. Schools seem to have become like jails and teachers/administrators like wardens. Everyone march in lockstep, and for what?

      Perhaps if more people were able to homeschool their children and there were less school officials, maybe we'd all be better off. It's possible that a private religious school might be better than public schools.

      Just my two cents worth of opinion. Okay, run-on ranting over now.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by AprilCT View Post

        These people know nothing about children. Give the boy a few more years and he won't like girls at all until his teens. At 6 years old, they are still babies and these policies are abusive to children. I think it was my youngest son in preschool who had a girlfriend and her mother told me she said she was going to marry my son. We both just laughed and I don't think they've seen each other in many years now.
        HEY, at 6, it seems like a lifetime! They could have seriously felt that way. Of course, it would take 7+ years(at least in the US) to legally do so, and they probably had aspirations that would make the average 15+ years seem more reasonable(AGAIN, at least in the US)

        I don't think the average American girl dreams of living in a shack being barefoot and pregnant.

        This is just all stupid political correctness and zero tolerance policy taken far beyond anything a reasonable and rational person would do. I see this as a big deal made out of nothing. I really feel for that child's mother, too. Send people through a grinder just because you can.
        The ironic thing is that all this talk about boys/girls, male/female, sex... Is going to encourage more talk about such things. You see people talk all the time about how they want to wait as late as possible to talk about such things.

        And the worst part is our children are suffering from their madness. Schools seem to have become like jails and teachers/administrators like wardens. Everyone march in lockstep, and for what?
        YEAH AND, like prison guards, they often act like the epitome of what they claim to supposedly be trying to prevent

        Perhaps if more people were able to homeschool their children and there were less school officials, maybe we'd all be better off. It's possible that a private religious school might be better than public schools.
        People go to school because of others, expectations, and maybe SOME exposure. They do NOT go there because of any official. Administrators and the like are the EASIEST to replace! SERIOUSLY, we had the technology in computers to do that over 50 years ago!!!!! And I KNOW that at least the LAUSD had such a computer system. They had it when I was there in 1980, but the books were obviously old, and I think most got such things BEFORE 1970. In the 1970s, they had cheaper, smaller, and friendlier computers.

        And TEACHERS act like THEY rule the roost! It is like THEM, UNION, and SCHOOL DISTRICT. So what does the official really do? But those officials tend to get 3-5 times what a teacher does.

        Homeschooling and private schools HAVE traditionally, at least in the US, been better. BOTH have to answer to the parent and testing authorities. Failing in either case can create problems they don't want. And there ARE standards to meet, and easy ways to meet them. They could often teach the child without letting him/her know that he/she is learning.

        Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by David Braybrooke View Post

      What about making laws that stop the press/media from disseminating these types of stories? The child is 6 - I saw him on TV, and his Mother was speaking angrily about it to the cameras. Surely, this type of attention for a 6 year old cannot be beneficial in any way! The real tragedy here, in my opinion, is that responsible adults couldn't work out a proper solution for this, before someone got incensed by it all and felt motivated to contact media sources. Was anyone really thinking about the child here - privacy issues etc.?
      The "proper solution" is EASY! If I told you, people would misconstrue, but "proper" is NOT proper, even if it IS the only way. Outside of that, the aggressors WILL continue! The only other way is extreme force or publicity to keep them at bay, and hope it eventually dies down.

      At 6yo, the boy is NOT going to be beating the girl, or get her pregnant, or ANYTHING of that nature. They likely won't even go through that act. Kids may do this sort of thing. If they work with kids, there are two "proper solutions" here! One is to SHUTUP, grin and bare it! The other is to GET A JOB AWAY FROM KIDS! Would they act the same way if a little GIRL kissed her?

      As for child privacy, they USED to have rules against pictures and names, etc..., but privacy is effectively dead ANYWAY!

      Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author David Braybrooke
        Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

        As for child privacy, they USED to have rules against pictures and names, etc..., but privacy is effectively dead ANYWAY!

        Steve
        If we cannot protect 6 year olds from the prying eyes of moneymaking media interests then what hope is there? This is not News but a form of child exploitation, in my opinion. The same press that will rail against the abuse of child rights and fiercely protect the safety of minors etc will turn around and do this. The parent/s and media should be flayed! And furthermore, the 6 year old at the centre of all this is already on record expressing confusion over the attention focused on him. Remember the days when children were allowed to have childhoods without all this postmodern, sensationalised, invasive cr*p!? It has to stop!
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by David Braybrooke View Post

          If we cannot protect 6 year olds from the prying eyes of moneymaking media interests then what hope is there? This is not News but a form of child exploitation, in my opinion. The same press that will rail against the abuse of child rights and fiercely protect the safety of minors etc will turn around and do this. The parent/s and media should be flayed! And furthermore, the 6 year old at the centre of all this is already on record expressing confusion over the attention focused on him. Remember the days when children were allowed to have childhoods without all this postmodern, sensationalised, invasive cr*p!? It has to stop!

          I AGREE with you! I HATE it! I am just saying why they do it, and saying that it is WORSE than you claim!

          Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author LeadGenie
        Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

        The "proper solution" is EASY! If I told you, people would misconstrue, but "proper" is NOT proper, even if it IS the only way. Outside of that, the aggressors WILL continue! The only other way is extreme force or publicity to keep them at bay, and hope it eventually dies down.

        At 6yo, the boy is NOT going to be beating the girl, or get her pregnant, or ANYTHING of that nature. They likely won't even go through that act. Kids may do this sort of thing. If they work with kids, there are two "proper solutions" here! One is to SHUTUP, grin and bare it! The other is to GET A JOB AWAY FROM KIDS! Would they act the same way if a little GIRL kissed her?

        As for child privacy, they USED to have rules against pictures and names, etc..., but privacy is effectively dead ANYWAY!

        Steve
        Black is the new White.. Red is the new Yellow..
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  • Profile picture of the author LukasM
    Pretty pathetic, the country that I live in, if you lose your virginity below 18 yrs old, you're called a sl*t, and if you would kiss somebody in school, teachers would probably just smile at you, I think the US is taking the wrong tools to stop young kids becoming parents and so on..
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by LukasM View Post

      Pretty pathetic, the country that I live in, if you lose your virginity below 18 yrs old, you're called a sl*t, and if you would kiss somebody in school, teachers would probably just smile at you, I think the US is taking the wrong tools to stop young kids becoming parents and so on..
      WOW,what country do you live in? The US used to be like that!

      Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
      Originally Posted by LukasM View Post

      Pretty pathetic, the country that I live in, if you lose your virginity below 18 yrs old, you're called a sl*t, and if you would kiss somebody in school, teachers would probably just smile at you, I think the US is taking the wrong tools to stop young kids becoming parents and so on..
      I agree that many countries are taking a terrible approach when dealing
      with the sexuality (or lack thereof, in the case of a 6 year old!) of young people.

      But the slut-shaming isn't any better. This is almost 2015, and "losing virginity"
      is a long outdated concept. Kids are going to kiss, and when they are
      older they are going to have sex.

      Focus should be on teaching young people the cause-and-effect nature of
      the world so that they can make better choices-- just like everything else
      in their lives, from driving to doing homework and managing their money.

      Guilt, shame, fear, delusional hopes-- these are the tools of an old system
      that is no longer valid in our world, and shouldn't be used to manipulate
      children anymore.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

        But the slut-shaming isn't any better. This is almost 2015, and "losing virginity"
        is a long outdated concept. Kids are going to kiss, and when they are
        older they are going to have sex.
        You DO realize that you made a comment that, by its NATURE contradicts itself, and thereby invalidates it!

        OUTDATED? OK, it is an old thing that disappeared in some way, or a new thing. HERE, we KNOW it exists, so it must not have. If it didn't, how did a concept that covers it EVER come to be? Were humans then ASEXUAL? Of course, if it didn't exist, then how was the concept created?

        So WHAT is outdated? Kids kissed and had sex THEN! HENCE, the term!

        Focus should be on teaching young people the cause-and-effect nature of
        the world so that they can make better choices-- just like everything else
        in their lives, from driving to doing homework and managing their money.
        Outside of some that feel they have special knowledge that is PERFECT, like taking baths, using condoms, etc.... They ALL know that sex can lead to pregnancy or disease. They have known that for perhaps thousands of years!

        Guilt, shame, fear, delusional hopes-- these are the tools of an old system
        that is no longer valid in our world, and shouldn't be used to manipulate
        children anymore.
        Believe it or not, people said the *******SAME THINGS for at least nearly 1 MILLENIA!!!!!! Ever hear of CHASTITY belts? Chastity belt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

        Of course America is NOT the only culture to have such values, and any change here won't change their culture.

        Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
          Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

          You DO realize that you made a comment that, by its NATURE contradicts itself, and thereby invalidates it!
          No, I really don't see how my statement contradicted itself in any
          way whatsoever. You're going to have to explain that one to me.


          Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

          OUTDATED? OK, it is an old thing that disappeared in some way, or a new thing. HERE, we KNOW it exists, so it must not have. If it didn't, how did a concept that covers it EVER come to be? Were humans then ASEXUAL? Of course, if it didn't exist, then how was the concept created?
          So WHAT is outdated? Kids kissed and had sex THEN! HENCE, the term!
          Also maybe explain what that means at all, and how it applies?


          Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

          Outside of some that feel they have special knowledge that is PERFECT, like taking baths, using condoms, etc.... They ALL know that sex can lead to pregnancy or disease. They have known that for perhaps thousands of years!
          Right... bringing up modern teaching/learning science again, we now
          know that children make better decisions when they have clear examples
          of the positive and negative consequences of their choices, rather than
          mere abstract ideas they have memorized by rote.
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            [quote=MikeTucker;8787940]No, I really don't see how my statement contradicted itself in any
            way whatsoever. You're going to have to explain that one to me.
            Also maybe explain what that means at all, and how it applies?

            If they EARLIER didn't have the concerns that we do now, they would never have had things like chastity in mind back then. If we suddeny don't have those problems, why would anyone now be concerned? So HOW is the idea outdated?

            Right... bringing up modern teaching/learning science again, we now
            know that children make better decisions when they have clear examples
            of the positive and negative consequences of their choices, rather than
            mere abstract ideas they have memorized by rote.
            YEP, and they KNOW the consequences! HECK, because of abortion, etc... BOTH sides figure it is NO PROBLEM! NEVER mind that the woman could simply decide to have the child, and get child and alimony support from the ****SUPPOSED**** father.

            Steve
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            • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
              Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

              That has NOTHING to do with it! I have actually READ the book they use!
              In NEITHER case was the mud justified!
              Steve
              My point was only that you are so proud of your ideas, are they
              not worth the "mud" that you would have to wade through?



              Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

              If they EARLIER didn't have the concerns that we do now, they would never have had things like chastity in mind back then. If we suddeny don't have those problems, why would anyone now be concerned? So HOW is the idea outdated?
              I've read over this a few times and I still don't know what you're trying
              to say here, so instead I'm going to try to expound on my original statement
              which may be the original source of the confusion.

              I was speaking specifically about the concept of "losing virginity",
              as though it were something special or precious, and especially the
              slut-shaming that goes on when teenagers have sex.

              Shame, guilt, and insults have been proven time and again to be
              ineffective, even counter-productive tools when guiding the behavior
              of teenagers. Far better results are gotten when they are given
              clear images of the results and consequences of their choices,
              and encouraged to be responsible with their sexual choices.

              Just like driving, doing their homework, managing their money,
              posting personal information online, etc.


              Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

              YEP, and they KNOW the consequences! HECK, because of abortion, etc... BOTH sides figure it is NO PROBLEM! NEVER mind that the woman could simply decide to have the child, and get child and alimony support from the ****SUPPOSED**** father.

              Steve
              Knowing consequences on an abstract, intellectual level is not
              the same as understanding consequences. As in all cases of motivation,
              a clear, vivid example is far more effective for helping young people
              make the choices that are best for themselves.
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              • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

                My point was only that you are so proud of your ideas, are they
                not worth the "mud" that you would have to wade through?
                To spend MILLIONS and have people accuse me of supporting exactly what I hate, etc? NO WAY! BESIDES, I would get very little say ANYWAY! As I said, congress would HATE me, as I would want all in congress to get FAR less! Since my mother and father have not been in jail at any time that I know of, and are both citizens of citizens, and I haven't been and any court case has generally been a minor civil issue and none has lied on their credentials and I don't make a fortune, we have paid a lot in taxes, haven't scammed, haven't lied about our credentials, etc... HECK, I haven't even started any fights, etc...., I would wonder what they would dig up for dirt. of course, as I said, if it were clear glass, they would still do something to present a mountain of mud.

                Knowing consequences on an abstract, intellectual level is not
                the same as understanding consequences. As in all cases of motivation,
                a clear, vivid example is far more effective for helping young people
                make the choices that are best for themselves.
                What WOULD YOU suggest? Giving everyone HIV, HSV,HPV, Chlamydia, and a diabetic allergic child with severe LFA, so they have first hand experience of many of the more common problems? Sometimes BOOK knowledge is BETTER!

                Steve
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                • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
                  Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                  What WOULD YOU suggest? Giving everyone HIV, HSV,HPV, Chlamydia, and a diabetic allergic child with severe LFA, so they have first hand experience of many of the more common problems? Sometimes BOOK knowledge is BETTER!
                  Steve
                  :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

                  Why do you always take things people write to the extreme,
                  far past the point where it even resembles what was being said?

                  Seriously Steve, you are an intelligent man. Why would you
                  possibly think that would be my suggestion at any point in time, ever?
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
        Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

        Literal-minded, ain't ya?

        If we closed the school system, people would find alternative ways to educate their children. The market would adapt. It always does.
        Not especially, just wary of the constant stream of imperfect analogies
        and the attempts to oversimplify complex problems.


        Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

        The state has corrupted your brain. Why should it cost trillions to shut down an ineffective institution?
        It should cost nothing.
        There are the way things "should be" and the way things are.
        You'll note my statement was specifically made with that in mind.

        The reality is that the "ineffective institution" is just not going to be shut down.
        It will be changed. And it will cost trillions. Mostly because it's going
        to be done wrong so many times first, and so many people are going to
        have to be dragged into the future kicking and screaming.


        Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

        This reminds me, the single best reason for closing down the school system is that we will not have any more well-meaning people telling us how to raise our children.
        You'll note that my statement didn't say how. Just how not to.
        And it's not an idea from just any "well-meaning" people, but from
        the leading psychiatrists in the country.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          This is a bit radical but I've thought we'd do better to educate children in small classes with teachers who are "education facilitators" and other teachers who are "professional educators".

          Put kids in a classroom with a big screen where the "professional educator" leads the class remotely. The facilitating teacher is there to answer student questions, check their work, provide additional explanation...and provide discipline.

          Teachers don't want to be judged on the merit system for their skills - so create different levels of teachers. Take the most engaging, interesting, qualified educators and put them online where a LOT of children can benefit from their skills.

          I think the day will come when (interactive?) internet teaching will be used in every classroom. It's the ultimate in "standardized education". We wouldn't need nearly as many teachers or administrators or aides and it would be far easier to coordinate a curriculum across the country.

          An argument has been made that would be a bad move because it might lead to "indoctrination" but indoctrination is going on in some public schools now. Remote teachers would be visible - parents (and taxpayers) could see what kids are learning - students who need to could access the class again for further explanation.

          This kind of educational system would provide math and English and history students to be educated by teachers with advanced degrees and a depth of knowledge and interest beyond the Bachelors' in Education degree commonly found in classes today.
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            Teachers don't want to be judged on the merit system for their skills.
            I like your ideas, and they are similar to some I have had. The above statement is interesting though! A system BUILT on the idea that students should have their skills assessed by a third party who doesn't require ANY professional USE assessment places these teachers in an odd situation! On the one hand, EVERYTHING you said is TRUE! On the OTHER hand, it brands them as hypocrites because they REFUSE to submit to the VERY idea that makes it possible for them to be paid!!!!!!

            Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            This is a bit radical but I've thought we'd do better to educate children in small classes with teachers who are "education facilitators" and other teachers who are "professional educators".

            Put kids in a classroom with a big screen where the "professional educator" leads the class remotely. The facilitating teacher is there to answer student questions, check their work, provide additional explanation...and provide discipline.

            Teachers don't want to be judged on the merit system for their skills - so create different levels of teachers. Take the most engaging, interesting, qualified educators and put them online where a LOT of children can benefit from their skills.

            I think the day will come when (interactive?) internet teaching will be used in every classroom. It's the ultimate in "standardized education". We wouldn't need nearly as many teachers or administrators or aides and it would be far easier to coordinate a curriculum across the country.

            An argument has been made that would be a bad move because it might lead to "indoctrination" but indoctrination is going on in some public schools now. Remote teachers would be visible - parents (and taxpayers) could see what kids are learning - students who need to could access the class again for further explanation.

            This kind of educational system would provide math and English and history students to be educated by teachers with advanced degrees and a depth of knowledge and interest beyond the Bachelors' in Education degree commonly found in classes today.

            It sounds like it's worth a test program or two.

            I'd try anything to mend it (public education) rather than simply ending it.
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
          Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

          Gee, I don't know where to begin. Do you know what an appeal to authority is?

          It's a logical fallacy. The fact that "leading psychiatrists" say something has nothing at all to do with whether it's true or false, right or wrong.
          Yes, I'm quite aware actually, but your condescending, pseudo intellectualism
          is showing again. Here is some light reading to help:

          List of fallacies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
          Decision-making - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


          Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

          You really need to come to grips with the concept that our public school system is outmoded and ineffective.
          You seem to have missed the part where I agreed with this?


          Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

          Trillions of dollars will not change that as surely as billions and billions of years will not turn hydrogen into Cleveland.
          Speaking of fallacies...


          Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

          If you want to send your kids there, go right ahead. Just don't use force to coerce me into sending my kids there, OK? Don't use threat of force to make me pay for it, either. Fair enough?
          1. Never said I would choose to send my children to public school.
          But then, I would imagine that most people would not, if they had a
          practical alternative?

          2. Nobody has suggested using force to coerce you to send your
          children to a public school. I have no idea where you are getting
          this from.

          3. We all pay taxes for things we don't support or believe in.
          When you find a realistic solution to stop that, please let us all know!


          Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

          There is nothing complex about it. You're responsible for educating your children and I'm responsible for educating mine.

          No, there's nothing complex about that at all.

          So, try to follow this, you, society, the state, the government, leading psychiatrists, or any other well-meaning bystander should have exactly zero input into educating my children.
          Unless the children are being abused, then sure, you have that right.
          I'm sure you're doing everything to make sure that they have all
          of the advantages in life that you want them to.


          Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

          I honestly don't care what you do with your children, grandchildren, or whomever you are responsible for educating. It doesn't affect me or those for whom I'm responsible.

          Have the common decency to just leave us alone.
          It will affect you when you have to live in the same world and deal
          with those children when they become adults, just as the children
          that you raise will affect other people, whether they become doctors,
          nurses, officers, businesspeople, or heaven forbid, politicians! :p
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

            It will affect you when you have to live in the same world and deal
            with those children when they become adults, just as the children
            that you raise will affect other people, whether they become doctors,
            nurses, officers, businesspeople, or heaven forbid, politicians! :p
            It IS interesting that this has all become a big game! In a PROPER business, the methodology is:

            1. Advertise needed skills and some filter criteria. HOPEFULLY, only DECENT candidates will apply!
            2. Review information sent, and ask only those that pass for an INTERVIEW!
            3. Have only those that pass checked, and ask those that pass for something like drug tests, certificates, etc....
            4. Have only those that pass attend an interview with people closer to the position.
            5. Give job offers only to those that pass all.

            TODAY, the government and courts second guess ALL! In government positions, it is crazier. For PRESIDENT, HERE is what happens....

            1. The top two parties(There are actually FAR more, but maybe only 5 will make it to the ballot and generally only the top two are viable.) pick a number of candidates based on certain criteria that have NOTHING to do with the job.
            2. Delegates chose the top candidate(s) based on WHO KNOWS WHAT!
            2a. People may select the winner from candidates in #2, usually for their party.
            3. The winners, from the two parties, sling mud at one another and lie!
            4. People select candidates based on a whim. Often they select the party winner from step #2a!
            5. States dole out electors based on THEIR rules of how to apply the individual votes from step #4.
            6. The electors vote for the candidate they want which is often the one in their party.
            7. The one getting the most electors voting for them generally wins. The electors apparently often don't get a chance to even vote, since it is assumed they will vote as promised.

            MORE steps, but certainly not better!

            Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
            Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

            It's difficult not to condescend to you...
            It's really not. I refrain from speaking down at you in almost
            every thread, despite the fact that I often have the urge to.
            These are from this thread alone:

            Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

            Anyone dumb enough...

            ...as warehouse for morons.

            If you want to palm your responsibility off on the state...

            Bullshit. It's typical of whiners to ask for "proof" when they are too damned lazy or contrary to listen to common sense.

            ...you obviously failed to understand.

            The state has corrupted your brain.

            Gee, I don't know where to begin.

            So, try to follow this,

            I am please that you've found Wikipedia. You're showing progress.
            Perhaps you could use a reminder of your own advice:

            Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

            Have the common decency...

            Everyone has different beliefs, opinions, and viewpoints based
            on their own experiences in life. The fact that people do not
            always agree with you does not make them less intelligent than
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        • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
          Yep. I hear that. Yeah, we have some problems with our public education system. So lets just end it. Pretty simple solution. We will adapt. :/ Hey, so while were at it how about we all admit this Capitalism experiment has been a total failure also and just can that too? Makes as much sense.
          Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

          Not especially, just wary of the constant stream of imperfect analogies
          and the attempts to oversimplify complex problems.
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    • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
      Originally Posted by LukasM View Post

      Pretty pathetic, the country that I live in, if you lose your virginity below 18 yrs old, you're called a sl*t, and if you would kiss somebody in school, teachers would probably just smile at you, I think the US is taking the wrong tools to stop young kids becoming parents and so on..
      I will never be against teaching morality to children no matter how much society walks away from it.

      I think what is missing is good role models pouring into the next generation and the lack of teaching critical thinking skills in our schools. Of course with the government having more and more say in what is allowed and disallowed to be taught in schools, I don't see the return of teaching critical thinking skills returning any time soon. We all know the government is so good at that, themselves. :rolleyes:


      Terra
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  • Profile picture of the author LeadGenie
    Mostly I just feel bad for the kids who get lower quality education and then are brainwashed by mainstream television on top of it. It is a sinister cocktail. One the leads to a future that is not so bright, pun intended.. We can't or don't afford to give our kids a proper education anymore.. but at least we can keep bombing other poor countries and everyone seems to think this is acceptable.. Maybe that is really what they are trying to teach the kids to do.. lose your identity and individuality.. collect into the group think mindset "I reference Godin" OBEY!!!!
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    I stumbled upon this...

    High School Graduation Rate Hits 40-Year Peak in the U.S. - Emily Richmond - The Atlantic

    If this report is near truth...

    I would understand the calls to totally scrap public education if the numbers were like 40% - 50% etc.

    But at close to a total of 75%, I find it hard to understand the rational of the scrapers.

    Of course there needs to be much improvement in how, when and what kids are learning today to prepare them for higher ed to keep abreast with a changing society and to improve grad numbers but to scrap seems radical and a bit of an itchy trigger finger to me.
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      I stumbled upon this...

      High School Graduation Rate Hits 40-Year Peak in the U.S. - Emily Richmond - The Atlantic

      If this report is near truth...

      I would understand the calls to totally scrap public education if the numbers were like 40% - 50% etc.

      But at close to a total of 75%, I find it hard to understand the rational of the scrapers.

      Of course there needs to be much improvement in how, when and what kids are learning today to prepare them for higher ed to keep abreast with a changing society and to improve grad numbers but to scrap seems radical and a bit of an itchy trigger finger to me.
      Maybe this will help you.
      Bombshell reports show at least 100 cases of teachers cheating on standardized tests in public schools since 2006* - NY Daily News
      Graduating from a school doesn't equate to getting an education.
      Not to mention that home schooled children out preform state educated children.
      Home-Schooled Teens Ripe for College - US News and World Report
      Homeschool World - News - Some Fascinating Facts About Homeschool vs Public School
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      • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
        Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

        I'm still with the mend it not end it crowd because those probs can be fixed.

        Thanks!!
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        • Profile picture of the author ThomM
          Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

          I'm still with the mend it not end it crowd because those probs can be fixed.

          Thanks!!
          If it can be mended.
          To start with the dept. of education needs to go. Not to mention common core, no child left behind, and any other stupid "feel good" program that's out there.
          As good as it makes you feel to think it, not every child should receive the same education. Think about it, you tell your child they are unique and then send them to a school that tries to make them the same as everyone else. Then when they get out in the world they find out they are not prepared for what they are able to do.
          For example the dept. of education has decided every child should have a college education so education programs get designed to prepare every child for college.
          But what about the kids who want to be carpenters or chefs?
          There are numerous fields that don't require a college education that kids who want to enter aren't prepared for.
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          • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
            Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

            If it can be mended.
            To start with the dept. of education needs to go. Not to mention common core, no child left behind, and any other stupid "feel good" program that's out there.

            As good as it makes you feel to think it, not every child should receive the same education.

            Think about it, you tell your child they are unique and then send them to a school that tries to make them the same as everyone else. Then when they get out in the world they find out they are not prepared for what they are able to do.

            For example the dept. of education has decided every child should have a college education so education programs get designed to prepare every child for college.

            But what about the kids who want to be carpenters or chefs?

            There are numerous fields that don't require a college education that kids who want to enter aren't prepared for.

            I hear you Thom.

            - I'm not on board with the dept of ed being deleted. Someone must watch out for national standards. Why not the national gov?

            - I've heard bad things from all sides about Common Core.

            - I agree everyone doesn't need/want a college ed but everyone needs to be trained/educated in some field of endeavor - if they are so inclined.

            I believe the admin is trying to revamp dept of ed priorities towards that goal.

            44 calls for focus on vocational training | Reuters


            Question...

            Do you think the nation (taxpayers) should chip in and make after high school education financing as cheap as possible so that everyone who has the grades etc., can go to whatever type of school they want to?
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            • Profile picture of the author ThomM
              Do you think the nation (taxpayers) should chip in and make after high school education financing as cheap as possible so that everyone who has the grades etc., can go to whatever type of school they want to?
              No because it doesn't work that way.
              Look what happened with our healthcare.
              Before medicaid amd medicare were enacted going to the doctor was affordable. Why? Because doctors didn't need a large staff to process paper work and the market dictated what they could charge.
              Then the govt. stepped in and "guaranteed" payments. Between the extra staff needed to do the paper work and the "guarantee" they would be payed, prices went up.
              Same with a college education. Before govt. grants and student loans, colleges had to keep their costs in check. If a person truly wanted a college education they had to work for it.
              When the govt. made it easy for people to pay for a college education with "guarantees" of payments, costs for that education went up. In addition more people went to college just because they could and the quality of the education went down.
              When ever you put bureaucrats between the people and what they want the costs go up and the quality goes down.
              National standards aren't really needed. At the most they should be learning how to read, write, and do basic math. After that education should be geared towards what is needed in that region of the country. Let the parents work with the schools to design programs that benefit their children the best. After all who knows what a child needs, a parent and local school or a bureaucrat thousands of miles away?
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              • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                Interesting article about a couple of the people who are behind the effort to end public education:

                Robert Greenwald: Want to See How the Kochs Are Ending Public Education?

                Here's another article that presents a compelling argument that the real reason some want to end public education is for purely political reasons:

                Rethinking Schools Online
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                • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                  Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                  Interesting article about a couple of the people who are behind the effort to end public education:

                  Robert Greenwald: Want to See How the Kochs Are Ending Public Education?

                  Here's another article that presents a compelling argument that the real reason some want to end public education is for purely political reasons:

                  Rethinking Schools Online
                  Right Tim it's all about politics and only politics:rolleyes:
                  Despite what you think, not everything is about politics. Some people actually care about the education our children get and will continue to try and improve that education regardless of what party is in power.
                  The dept. of education will use money to force schools to adhere to their policies and agendas of the party in charge and that's fine with you.
                  That turned out so great with the "no child left behind" policy didn't it. For those who don't know that policy means if a school doesn't have the majority of their students federal mandated exams they lose their federal funding. The results ended up being educators helping their students cheat on the exams.
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                • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                  Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                  Interesting article about a couple of the people who are behind the effort to end public education:

                  Robert Greenwald: Want to See How the Kochs Are Ending Public Education?

                  Here's another article that presents a compelling argument that the real reason some want to end public education is for purely political reasons:

                  Rethinking Schools Online

                  The Koch brothers surely ain't the Smothers Brothers. Their family has been at it since the late 1950s.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                    The problem is some in power (on both sides) insist on turning our school systems into political machines.

                    Their focus is on policy, and unions and politics - both sides of the aisle have "special" courses they would like to see taught in our schools.

                    Unfortunately, it's our children who are victimized by the politics of education. What happens if the parents across the country refuse to support any party affiliation that uses schools to further it's agenda?

                    What we need is a "mainstream party" in this country - the right part of the left....and the left part of the right....people with some common sense in the middle of the aisle not afraid to tick off career politicians.
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                    • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                      The problem is some in power (on both sides) insist on turning our school systems into political machines.

                      Their focus is on policy, and unions and politics - both sides of the aisle have "special" courses they would like to see taught in our schools.

                      Unfortunately, it's our children who are victimized by the politics of education. What happens if the parents across the country refuse to support any party affiliation that uses schools to further it's agenda?

                      What we need is a "mainstream party" in this country - the right part of the left....and the left part of the right....people with some common sense in the middle of the aisle not afraid to tick off career politicians.
                      That sounds wonderful Kay.

                      I'd love to hear one position on any issue you believe should be middle of the road.
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                      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                        Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                        That sounds wonderful Kay.

                        I'd love to hear one position on any issue you believe should be middle of the road.
                        I guess some would consider even BASIC math too political. Or history.... I don't recall ANYONE speaking of religious positions or parties during history, when I was in school. HECK, the parties THEN were VERY different anyway. As for taxes? Read the bible, or even look at robin hood, and you will see how THEY felt! Back to history. OH YEAH! Boston tea party!

                        Steve
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              • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                No because it doesn't work that way.
                Look what happened with our healthcare.
                Before medicaid amd medicare were enacted going to the doctor was affordable. Why? Because doctors didn't need a large staff to process paper work and the market dictated what they could charge.
                Then the govt. stepped in and "guaranteed" payments. Between the extra staff needed to do the paper work and the "guarantee" they would be payed, prices went up.
                Same with a college education. Before govt. grants and student loans, colleges had to keep their costs in check. If a person truly wanted a college education they had to work for it.
                When the govt. made it easy for people to pay for a college education with "guarantees" of payments, costs for that education went up. In addition more people went to college just because they could and the quality of the education went down.
                When ever you put bureaucrats between the people and what they want the costs go up and the quality goes down.
                National standards aren't really needed. At the most they should be learning how to read, write, and do basic math. After that education should be geared towards what is needed in that region of the country. Let the parents work with the schools to design programs that benefit their children the best. After all who knows what a child needs, a parent and local school or a bureaucrat thousands of miles away?

                Got it, loud and clear.
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              • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                No because it doesn't work that way.
                Look what happened with our healthcare.
                Before medicaid amd medicare were enacted going to the doctor was affordable. Why? Because doctors didn't need a large staff to process paper work and the market dictated what they could charge.
                Then the govt. stepped in and "guaranteed" payments. Between the extra staff needed to do the paper work and the "guarantee" they would be payed, prices went up.
                Same with a college education. Before govt. grants and student loans, colleges had to keep their costs in check. If a person truly wanted a college education they had to work for it.
                When the govt. made it easy for people to pay for a college education with "guarantees" of payments, costs for that education went up. In addition more people went to college just because they could and the quality of the education went down.
                When ever you put bureaucrats between the people and what they want the costs go up and the quality goes down.
                National standards aren't really needed. At the most they should be learning how to read, write, and do basic math. After that education should be geared towards what is needed in that region of the country. Let the parents work with the schools to design programs that benefit their children the best. After all who knows what a child needs, a parent and local school or a bureaucrat thousands of miles away?
                So you're saying the federal gov (the taxpayer/nation) should stay out of helping folks pursuing higher education in any way...

                ...because federal involvement is the cause of college cost skyrocketing in the first place right?

                It can be argued that Mr. Inflation and disproportional inflation of college costs is the main reason college costs are so high - not the involvement of the federal gov.

                Throw in the fact that wages and productivity gains of the American worker has not even kept up with inflation and there you have it.

                This chart shows how college tuition costs have skyrocketed well above inflation since 1978.

                Even well above Health care costs.




                If there was a line on the chart that also showed the wage increases of Americans also it would be very close to flat when compared to inflation and the costs of college tuition.


                The GI bill...

                ... was a major federal (taxpayer) entry into the college tuition funding and
                it was enacted right after WW2.

                Millions of Americans earned a college degree that helped them support families because of the GI Bill and it was a major part of the creation of the great American middle class.

                College costs did not begin to seriously skyrocket until inflation started to take off in the 1970s and colleges took advantage of the situation - in many ways.

                The main reason for the explosion in college tuition is Mr. Inflation itself and then colleges went a way overboard with the price increases - seriously outstripping Mr. Inflation.

                Combine colleges going overboard with price increases due to inflation and throw in a lack of upward movement in the wages of Americans and you have what we have today.

                Federal involvement and some folks taking advantage of federal money is in the mix, but was/is not the main factor you claim for the cost explosion - not even close.


                Folks can check out this article on Wikipedia if you like.

                College tuition in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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                • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                  Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                  So you're saying the federal gov (the taxpayer/nation) should stay out of helping folks pursuing higher education in any way...

                  ...because federal involvement is the cause of college cost skyrocketing in the first place right?

                  It can be argued that Mr. Inflation and disproportional inflation of college costs is the main reason college costs are so high - not the involvement of the federal gov.

                  Throw in the fact that wages and productivity gains of the American worker has not even kept up with inflation and there you have it.

                  This chart shows how college tuition costs have skyrocketed well above inflation since 1978.

                  Even well above Health care costs.




                  If there was a line on the chart that also showed the wage increases of Americans also it would be very close to flat when compared to inflation and the costs of college tuition.


                  The GI bill...

                  ... was a major federal (taxpayer) entry into the college tuition funding and
                  it was enacted right after WW2.

                  Millions of Americans earned a college degree that helped them support families because of the GI Bill and it was a major part of the creation of the great American middle class.

                  College costs did not begin to seriously skyrocket until inflation started to take off in the 1970s and colleges took advantage of the situation - in many ways.

                  The main reason for the explosion in college tuition is Mr. Inflation itself and then colleges went a way overboard with the price increases - seriously outstripping Mr. Inflation.

                  Combine colleges going overboard with price increases due to inflation and throw in a lack of upward movement in the wages of Americans and you have what we have today.

                  Federal involvement and some folks taking advantage of federal money is in the mix, but was/is not the main factor you claim for the cost explosion - not even close.


                  Folks can check out this article on Wikipedia if you like.

                  College tuition in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
                  Here check out this article about Sallie Mae (student loans).
                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sallie_Mae
                  I suppose it's just a coincidence that shortly after Sallie Mae started handing out student loans, the cost of going to college skyrocketed.
                  Same goes for healthcare.
                  It was in the 70's that Nixon started a private health insurance employer mandate.
                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Nixon#Economy
                  Your graph goes right along with the implementing of government programs set up to make college affordable and health insurance available.
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                  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                    Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                    Here check out this article about Sallie Mae (student loans).
                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sallie_Mae

                    I suppose it's just a coincidence that shortly after Sallie Mae started handing out student loans, the cost of going to college skyrocketed.

                    Same goes for healthcare.


                    It was in the 70's that Nixon started a private health insurance employer mandate.
                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Nixon#Economy

                    Your graph goes right along with the implementing of government programs set up to make college affordable and health insurance available.

                    And Mr. Inflation started to rear his ugly head in earnest while wages began stagnating even up until theses days and times.
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                    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                      And Mr. Inflation started to rear his ugly head in earnest while wages began stagnating even up until theses days and times.
                      Yep right after Nixon totally took us off the gold standard.
                      Nixon's Colossal Monetary Error: The Verdict 40 Years Later - Forbes
                      You can ignore the facts all you want, doesn't change the facts that government has been responsible.
                      Doesn't change the fact that the cost of education skyrocketed after the feds. guaranteed payments.
                      Doesn't change the facts that healthcare skyrocketed after the feds. started mandating health insurance.
                      Can you name one thing the feds. have done in the last 40 years that has reversed the costs of education?
                      Let me ask you a simple question.
                      Say you owned a business selling bicycles.
                      Suddenly the feds pass a regulation limiting motorized transportation and mandating using bicycles.
                      Now they also pass a law saying they will "help" anyone who buys a bike with a low interest loan, guaranteeing payment for that bike.
                      Are you going to cut the cost of your bikes or are you going to raise the cost knowing you will get whatever you ask for?
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                    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                      And Mr. Inflation started to rear his ugly head in earnest while wages began stagnating even up until theses days and times.
                      HUH!?!?!?!?!? ******HUH*******!?!?!??!??!?!?!?

                      WAGES DON'T "STAGNATE" unless the value somehow drops. The value drops ONLY by inflating taxes and the "money supply". Prices can only climb while money is there to pay the price.

                      In other words, wages did NOT stagnate when inflation started!
                      Wages stagnated *****BECAUSE***** of inflation.

                      The government pays off several via COLA(Cost Of Living INCREASES(THEY incorrectly use the term adjustments because it sounds better, but it never goes down!)). But WHAT is cola driven by? INFLATION!!!!! Ironically, that then DRIVES inflation.

                      Steve
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                      • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                        The mergers are a concern because they can and do lead to monopolies and then the prices can be easily raised. Yes, it's probably a pushback by providers in response to reduced prices from Medicare, but these monopolies are not struggling from what I have read. Avic Roy has a couple good articles about these monopolies, their causes and their effects. Good reads from one of the best conservative writers about health care.

                        Hospital Monopolies: The Biggest Driver of Health Costs That Nobody Talks About - Forbes
                        How Hospital Mergers Increase Health Costs, and What to Do About It - Forbes

                        Another interesting article about this that Roy linked to.

                        Monopolies Threaten Health Care Cost Controls | The Fiscal Times
                        A national study conducted for the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation found that after the merger wave between 1990 and 2003, 90 percent of large metropolitan area hospitals wielded excessive market power as defined by the Federal Trade Commission. - See more at: Monopolies Threaten Health Care Cost Controls | The Fiscal Times
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                        • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                          Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                          The mergers are a concern because they can and do lead to monopolies and then the prices can be easily raised. Yes, it's probably a pushback by providers in response to reduced prices from Medicare, but these monopolies are not struggling from what I have read. Avic Roy has a couple good articles about these monopolies, their causes and their effects. Good reads from one of the best conservative writers about health care.

                          Hospital Monopolies: The Biggest Driver of Health Costs That Nobody Talks About - Forbes
                          How Hospital Mergers Increase Health Costs, and What to Do About It - Forbes

                          Another interesting article about this that Roy linked to.

                          Monopolies Threaten Health Care Cost Controls | The Fiscal Times
                          I'm not a fan of monopolies myself, but isn't the government deciding if your health insurance is right for you and forcing you to change policies if they don't like your plan a form of monopoly?
                          After all they have taken away your right to freely choose what policy you want based on your own needs.
                          Wouldn't a single payer system be a monopoly where govt. determines what services you can receive?
                          Same with education. If the government determines what is taught and withhold taxpayer monies from schools that disagree, isn't that like a monopoly?
                          How is the government controlling an industry any different then one company controlling an industry?
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                          • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                            Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                            I'm not a fan of monopolies myself, but isn't the government deciding if your health insurance is right for you and forcing you to change policies if they don't like your plan a form of monopoly?
                            I don't think so. It's just government regulation. Setting standards. And the insurance industry needed/needs that imo.
                            By definition monopolies are businesses. Government's aren't monopolies. I mean, would you call our military a monopoly? Etc...
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                            • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                              Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                              I don't think so. It's just government regulation. Setting standards. And the insurance industry needed/needs that imo.
                              By definition monopolies are businesses. Government's aren't monopolies. I mean, would you call our military a monopoly? Etc...
                              I get your point, and I don't have a problem with govt. regulations that protect the people. But our new health care laws aren't about regulating, but controlling a portion of the economy by the government. They are now in the business of selling health insurance.
                              Same as when the passed the medicare and medicaid laws. That was when they first went into the business of suppling health insurance to a niche that couldn't afford regular health insurance.
                              They act just like an insurance company also. They decide what they will pay for and what you will pay for, just like an insurance company. They also decide how much they will pay, just like an insurance company.
                              They also charge you a monthly premium and have deductibles, just like an insurance company.
                              For example you can get your basic medicare free, but it has very limited coverage. If you want to improve your medicare coverage you have to pay a monthly premium.
                              Differences between Medicare Parts A, B, C and D
                              The basic, free coverage only cover a portion of your stay in a hospital and nothing more.
                              So in reality the government is acting like a business, selling you the coverage you need. The difference is the government doesn't have the restrictions any other business has to prevent it from forming a monopoly.
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                              • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                                Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                                I get your point, and I don't have a problem with govt. regulations that protect the people. But our new health care laws aren't about regulating, but controlling a portion of the economy by the government. They are now in the business of selling health insurance.
                                Same as when the passed the medicare and medicaid laws. That was when they first went into the business of suppling health insurance to a niche that couldn't afford regular health insurance.
                                They act just like an insurance company also. They decide what they will pay for and what you will pay for, just like an insurance company. They also decide how much they will pay, just like an insurance company.
                                They also charge you a monthly premium and have deductibles, just like an insurance company.
                                For example you can get your basic medicare free, but it has very limited coverage. If you want to improve your medicare coverage you have to pay a monthly premium.
                                Differences between Medicare Parts A, B, C and D
                                The basic, free coverage only cover a portion of your stay in a hospital and nothing more.
                                So in reality the government is acting like a business, selling you the coverage you need. The difference is the government doesn't have the restrictions any other business has to prevent it from forming a monopoly.
                                Perhaps you don't understand the new HC law but the feds still only actually control only the medicare and medicare areas of our HC system.

                                That is where the monopoly is in the HC industry - not the HC industry in general.

                                But...

                                But happily there are plenty of new rules, guidelines and regulations for the rest of the HC marketplace and... (let's not forget)

                                ... a whole new slew of brand new HC related benefits the American people never had before the law was enacted.

                                Let's stop pretending...

                                I'm not one to pretend that business will always do the right thing - by its customers or workers so I'm very happy the HC industry has been forced to do the right thing.

                                If we ever have "medicare for all" - a true national system run by the feds then that will be a total fed gov takeover of the HC industry.

                                Private verse public monopolies:

                                I'd rather have an entity that does not have to make a large profit (any gov) in charge of or highly regulating vital services instead of ...


                                ... a entity(s) that must make as much money as possible for its shareholders and will do anything and everything possible to achieve that goal.


                                I'll take the former and you can have the latter for all our major expenditures.



                                It's Electric!

                                For example, if your state/county did not highly regulate the electric companies in your area they would really take advantage of the public just like the HC industry was doing.

                                The electric bills are high enough already but without gov supervision you and I both know our electric bills would be a whole lot higher.
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                                • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                                  Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                                  It's Electric!

                                  For example, if your state/county did not highly regulate the electric companies in your area they would really take advantage of the public just like the HC industry was doing.

                                  The electric bills are high enough already but without gov supervision you and I both know our electric bills would be a whole lot higher.
                                  All you have to do is look at relatively RECENT HISTORY in california, for starters, to see that what you are talking about is just not true! They deregulated and, until ENRON came in to destroy the market, it ran fine. Eventually, ENRON was put out of business. I have NO idea why enron lasted so long. I saw the garbage in california, and it was REPORTED in a major newspaper, YEARS before they went bankrupt. STILL, they didn't seem to affect ALL of california. I saw the problem in northern california, but not in southern.

                                  Anyway, the wipsaw shows how rates COULD have been higher, and were kept lower. They also dropped after the fiasco. BTW a few laws are threatening to INCREASE the cost of producing electricity, so the cost for it will go UP!

                                  Actually, a LOT of things keep costs low. ENRON was an aberration caused by stupid futures contracts and they actually had plants SHUT DOWN to reduce capacity. ALSO, there are laws requiring the electric companies to buy negative use, and some coops work to further reduce costs.

                                  Steve
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                                • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                                  Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                                  Perhaps you don't understand the new HC law but the feds still only actually control only the medicare and medicare areas of our HC system.
                                  You STILL haven't read the law or listened to the reports? They have specified a maximum ratio, which must drive the cost of lower risk policies UP! This is because if they stayed the same, the higher risk policies would have to be lowered, and that would mean that they would have to go out of business.

                                  They have ALSO specified that all policies must be UNISEX, and cover some lifestyle options. This means that the costs for women will go up, and the costs for men will go up even MORE. Check out national surveys, and they show that. I can understand why women would be upset at spending more for health insurance. Then again, they pay LESS for almost every OTHER type of insurance(life, car, etc...). Next thing you know, they will be getting into legislating haircuts and clothes, because seeming disparities exist THERE also.

                                  GOD are there a lot of changes with "HC". There is one I didn't even notice that is HUGE and has affected a LOT of people.

                                  Steve
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                • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                  In two generations we've gone from paying for education to financing education. In one generation we've gone from financing tuition and books to financing a student's entire lifestyle with student loans.

                  Very true that costs have risen rapidly since the 70's - shortly after the guaranteed student program was added.

                  The federal student loan program seemed like a great idea back in 1965: Borrow to go to college now, pay it back later when you have a job.

                  But many borrowers these days are close to flunking out, tripped up by painful real-life lessons in math and economics.


                  Surging above $1 trillion, U.S. student loan debt has surpassed credit card and auto-loan debt. ...jeopardizes the fragile recovery, increases the burden on taxpayers and possibly sets the stage for a new economic crisis...
                  FinAid | Loans | Student Loan Debt Clock

                  On the page link below, the second graph, if accurate, is enough to make you gasp.

                  Student loan shark industry

                  At the rate we're going - we'll have people sending their kids off to college while they are still repaying their own student loans!
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                • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                  Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                  So you're saying the federal gov (the taxpayer/nation) should stay out of helping folks pursuing higher education in any way...

                  ...because federal involvement is the cause of college cost skyrocketing in the first place right?

                  It can be argued that Mr. Inflation and disproportional inflation of college costs is the main reason college costs are so high - not the involvement of the federal gov.

                  Throw in the fact that wages and productivity gains of the American worker has not even kept up with inflation and there you have it.

                  This chart shows how college tuition costs have skyrocketed well above inflation since 1978.

                  Even well above Health care costs.




                  If there was a line on the chart that also showed the wage increases of Americans also it would be very close to flat when compared to inflation and the costs of college tuition.


                  The GI bill...

                  ... was a major federal (taxpayer) entry into the college tuition funding and
                  it was enacted right after WW2.

                  Millions of Americans earned a college degree that helped them support families because of the GI Bill and it was a major part of the creation of the great American middle class.

                  College costs did not begin to seriously skyrocket until inflation started to take off in the 1970s and colleges took advantage of the situation - in many ways.

                  The main reason for the explosion in college tuition is Mr. Inflation itself and then colleges went a way overboard with the price increases - seriously outstripping Mr. Inflation.

                  Combine colleges going overboard with price increases due to inflation and throw in a lack of upward movement in the wages of Americans and you have what we have today.

                  Federal involvement and some folks taking advantage of federal money is in the mix, but was/is not the main factor you claim for the cost explosion - not even close.


                  Folks can check out this article on Wikipedia if you like.

                  College tuition in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
                  Most food and the like is a somewhat remote task. HECK, you can have tractors act like a roombot and harvest crops and load them into trucks. A person could drive a HUGE truck to a HUGE processor, and deliver it quickly. Plants can process that pretty automatically as well. A few people could process TONS! But with colleges, they often still have ratios that are FAR more equal. Of COURSE, you can "bend the cost curve". It is done ALL THE TIME in similar cases but RARELY in "formal education". And look at how the pay is in both!

                  It is NO WONDER why the cost is going up so much. It is STILL due to INFLATION! FOOD might be 1000:1 and School is like 30:1. Even with MEDICAL care, you have students, volunteers, and low income help, and LONG WAITS, so you can see how inflation appears to be so mitigated.

                  teve
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              • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                No because it doesn't work that way.
                Look what happened with our healthcare.
                Before medicaid amd medicare were enacted going to the doctor was affordable. Why? Because doctors didn't need a large staff to process paper work and the market dictated what they could charge.
                Then the govt. stepped in and "guaranteed" payments. Between the extra staff needed to do the paper work and the "guarantee" they would be payed, prices went up.
                Same with a college education. Before govt. grants and student loans, colleges had to keep their costs in check. If a person truly wanted a college education they had to work for it.
                When the govt. made it easy for people to pay for a college education with "guarantees" of payments, costs for that education went up. In addition more people went to college just because they could and the quality of the education went down.
                When ever you put bureaucrats between the people and what they want the costs go up and the quality goes down.
                National standards aren't really needed. At the most they should be learning how to read, write, and do basic math. After that education should be geared towards what is needed in that region of the country. Let the parents work with the schools to design programs that benefit their children the best. After all who knows what a child needs, a parent and local school or a bureaucrat thousands of miles away?

                And then you also argue that federal/taxpayer involvement in HC is the primary cause of the crazy prices in the health care industry.

                According to this article health care costs rose 78% since 1999.

                That's almost double in the last 13-14 years alone.

                Medicare began in the mid 1960s.

                Health insurance jumps twice inflation rate - Health - Health care | NBC News

                Is it possible that paychecks not keeping up with inflation is a major reason HC costs are out of wack and expensive?

                What about the rise of the HMOs?

                Think they had something to do with the rise in HC costs with their 20-40% surcharge?

                Combine wages not keeping up with inflation with the extra costs of the HMOs and there you have it.

                Look how HC costs have skyrocketed verses inflation and of course American wages have not come close to keeping up with inflation.




                Medicare was enacted in the mid 1960s...

                ... and the federal involvement in providing just Medicare and Medicaid to our elderly (approx. 15% of the population) is not the primary reason HC costs have gone bonkers.


                Sure, there are some probs with fraud, over & guaranteed payments by the feds...

                ... but to lay the majority of the blame on the federal gov for the high cost of HC is a bit much - but it jives with the world view of the serious anti-fed-gov crowd.


                Wages & Prices:

                Wages not keeping up with inflation and productivity is a primary source of economic pain in this society.


                One method of helping the American people in so many economic ways would be to be in favor of wages keeping up with inflation and productivity, ...

                ...but of course, you're against the min wage in the first place.

                (correct me if I'm wrong on this matter - please)

                I hear if wages would have kept up with Mr. Inflation and Mr. productivity the average salary in the USA would be more like 70K per year instead of around 35-40K.


                But...

                ... you're against that happening because in your opinion it isn't right to mandate that businesses pay a decent min wage to begin with let alone one tied to inflation.

                Businesses are getting paid, institutions are getting paid but Americans are not.

                A min wage tied to inflation would have helped push all wages up and would have been a great help to maintaining the high American standard of living.

                The Oil Shock:

                Since the oil shock in the 1970s America began to slowly become a NOT cheap place to live as it was before...

                ... and some sectors of the economy such a health care have gone way overboard with their price increases and once again...

                ... it hasn't been helpful at all to Americans that wages have not kept abreast of inflation and productivity.
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                • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                  Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                  ... and the federal involvement in providing just Medicare and Medicaid to our elderly (approx. 15% of the population) is not the primary reason HC costs have gone bonkers.
                  You are right TL. Medicare and Medicaid aren't one of the main reasons that health care costs have soared. There are many articles about why our health care prices have gone up so high. Here's one from an insurance company who's main goal of course is to defend their profits of course, but besides that obvious bias it's seems pretty spot on and in line with what many others say. Some of the main causes are:

                  * Hospital Costs. "An increasingly important factor driving hospital price increases is consolidation of the hospital industry. Hospital mergers and acquisitions jumped by 33 percent between 2009 and 2010. Research shows that hospital market concentration leads to increases in the price of hospital care. In fact, price increases exceeded 20 percent when mergers occurred in concentrated markets."

                  * Medical technology. "The increasing cost of medical technology is a significant contributor to higher health care spending. The implementation of new medical technology accounts for between 38 percent and 65 percent of health care spending increases. New technology expands the range of treatment options available to patients, but it does by replacing lower-cost options with higher-cost services."

                  * Unhealthy lifestyle. "The growing burden of chronic diseases adds significantly to escalating health care costs. Researchers predict a 42 percent increase in chronic disease cases by 2023, adding $4.2 trillion in treatment costs and lost economic output.18 Much of this cost is preventable, since many chronic conditions are linked to unhealthy lifestyles. For example, obesity accounts for an estimated 12 percent of the health spending growth in recent years."

                  * Aging population. "Life expectancy in the U.S. reached 77.9 years in 2007, up significantly from 62.9 years in 1940.20 Individuals who are age 65 or older, who spend much more on health care services than younger people, will comprise nearly one-fifth of the population by 2050."

                  The Facts About Rising Health Care Costs

                  By the way, Nixon only proposed employer mandates. That bill was never passed mainly because of Ted Kennedy who later said it was the biggest political mistake he ever made. He wanted more from Nixon. If that bill had passed we would have had true universal healthcare the past 40 years.
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                  • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                    Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                    You are right TL. Medicare and Medicaid aren't one of the main reasons that health care costs have soared. There are many articles about why our health care prices have gone up so high. Here's one from an insurance company who's main goal of course is to defend their profits of course, but besides that obvious bias it's seems pretty spot on and in line with what many others say. Some of the main causes are:

                    * Hospital Costs. "An increasingly important factor driving hospital price increases is consolidation of the hospital industry. Hospital mergers and acquisitions jumped by 33 percent between 2009 and 2010. Research shows that hospital market concentration leads to increases in the price of hospital care. In fact, price increases exceeded 20 percent when mergers occurred in concentrated markets."

                    * Medical technology. "The increasing cost of medical technology is a significant contributor to higher health care spending. The implementation of new medical technology accounts for between 38 percent and 65 percent of health care spending increases. New technology expands the range of treatment options available to patients, but it does by replacing lower-cost options with higher-cost services."

                    * Unhealthy lifestyle. "The growing burden of chronic diseases adds significantly to escalating health care costs. Researchers predict a 42 percent increase in chronic disease cases by 2023, adding $4.2 trillion in treatment costs and lost economic output.18 Much of this cost is preventable, since many chronic conditions are linked to unhealthy lifestyles. For example, obesity accounts for an estimated 12 percent of the health spending growth in recent years."

                    * Aging population. "Life expectancy in the U.S. reached 77.9 years in 2007, up significantly from 62.9 years in 1940.20 Individuals who are age 65 or older, who spend much more on health care services than younger people, will comprise nearly one-fifth of the population by 2050."

                    The Facts About Rising Health Care Costs

                    By the way, Nixon only proposed employer mandates. That bill was never passed mainly because of Ted Kennedy who later said it was the biggest political mistake he ever made. He wanted more from Nixon. If that bill had passed we would have had true universal healthcare the past 40 years.
                    And why are hospitals and doctors merging? Here's the latest reason.
                    Hospital executives say they have little choice but to combine given the coming changes in the industry. Many hospitals are struggling with lower payments from the federal government and declining patient admissions. They are also being confronted with fundamental changes in how they are paid under the Affordable Care Act and by private insurers. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/13/bu...ents.html?_r=0
                    Back when they first started merging it was because of the added costs in processing medicaid and medicare payments and the lower fees those programs paid.
                    Interesting you use an article from an insurance company that is trying to justify their high rates:rolleyes:
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    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
      It's not even worth trying to understand TL. Any good news about our education system goes against their meme that all governemt is evil and bad. By the way, the graduation rate was at about 10% back in 1910. 75% seems to me to be an improvement but maybe I better go back and study the new math.

      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      I stumbled upon this...

      High School Graduation Rate Hits 40-Year Peak in the U.S. - Emily Richmond - The Atlantic

      If this report is near truth...

      I would understand the calls to totally scrap public education if the numbers were like 40% - 50% etc.

      But at close to a total of 75%, I find it hard to understand the rational of the scrapers.

      Of course there needs to be much improvement in how, when and what kids are learning today to prepare them for higher ed to keep abreast with a changing society and to improve grad numbers but to scrap seems radical and a bit of an itchy trigger finger to me.
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      • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

        By the way, the graduation rate was at about 10% back in 1910. 75% seems to me to be an improvement but maybe I better go back and study the new math.

        So, from those two statistics (10% versus 75%) you are able to determine that the public school system is as good as or better now than it was in 1910? There's no possibility that societal norms, industrial and economic changes, or existing government policies have an effect on graduation rates? It's just pure and simple good teachin'?

        Seems to me -- and I'm a proponent of massive school reform (so, obviously, I'm stupid) -- that those two numbers don't mean much unless we know the factors behind them.
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      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

        It's not even worth trying to understand TL. Any good news about our education system goes against their meme that all governemt is evil and bad. By the way, the graduation rate was at about 10% back in 1910. 75% seems to me to be an improvement but maybe I better go back and study the new math.
        U.S. education slipping in world rankings: report - Washington Times
        Yep it's more important to graduate, then to educate:rolleyes:
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        • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
          Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

          U.S. education slipping in world rankings: report - Washington Times
          Yep it's more important to graduate, then to educate:rolleyes:
          I know of many kids that were pushed through high school and graduated because educators did not want to deal with them any longer. I mean they actually cannot read or write. But hey, they graduated...

          Hurray, more graduations being pushed through to make it appear our education system really does work! :rolleyes:


          Terra
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    The idea of a school is NOT supposed to be to graduate! It is supposed to be TO LEARN! The whole idea of graduation was supposed to be to indicate that you learned a reasonable amount at that level, and could go to the next level.

    You want the goal to be GRADUATION?

    1. What is 2+2?
    2. What country, or state, do you live in?
    3. Name 1 of the 50 states, or the several possessions, of the US!
    4. Name a cold temperature, in degrees of Fahrenheit(the scale usually used in the US).
    5. Is Plutonium radioactive?

    Get 3 of the questions right and GRADUATE!

    I would rather have schools teach a lot of useful info and have a lower graduation rate, than have them simply teach to a test and pass ALL the students.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Devin X
    Banned
    Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

    The US just placed even lower than previously on a global education list and the response from a teacher union rep on TV was "this is proof we need to pay teachers more".

    For this? Really?

    In spite of claims by the teacher unions, if US teacher were paid at the same rate as other countries - US teachers would take a 30% pay cut. oops

    When social correctness is the primary focus of education - the kids lose. This poor little' boy's mom is at a loss - now he's asking her "what's sex?"
    Have you ever seen the movie, "Idiocracy"? I really feel like, "not sure", from that movie. And...this meme comes to mind.
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  • Profile picture of the author garyv
    I don't know why we don't just go with vouchers. Let parent's decide where their kids should go, and what they should be taught. This would not only be more democratic, but it would eventually cause those schools that are producing the highest wage earners to rise to the top.
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
    Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

    Oh, and yes, you believe in mandatory education and that is using force to put people into schools. No doubt about it. Take a good look at how public schools are funded.
    Yes, I believe that mandatory education is a good thing.
    This is based on my own experience in places that have it,
    and those that do not.

    I'm well aware of how public schools are funded. But as
    pointed out by you yourself, there are other options, including
    private schools, religious schools, and even homeschooling.



    Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

    So, apparently, you don't want to send your children to a public school, but you're alright with others having to do it. Is that it?
    Allow me to clarify: Public schools would probably not
    be the first choice for my children. However, I would
    certainly appreciate and use public schools for what they
    can offer if I had to.

    Many people could never afford a private school,
    would never put their children in a religious school,
    and are not qualified to homeschool their children.

    Tutors and personal teachers are very expensive, and
    "an hour in the evening" is most certainly not enough
    to teach them everything they need to learn to be
    competitive in modern society!


    Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

    You're willing to spend "trillions and trillions" of dollars to improve a system when it is the system itself that is the problem.
    Allow me to clarify, that's not what I meant.
    (Also, "trillions and trillions" is a mis-quote. )

    Yes, I would happily spend trillions to fix the system.
    I disagree that the system itself is "the" problem.
    I strongly believe it is an aministrative problem, for
    the most part, and the current education system could
    be very successful with some core structural changes.


    Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

    You do realize that taxation is force, don't you? If you don't, stop paying them and see what happens.
    Yes, I'm quite aware of that simple fact, as my previous
    post clearly indicates?

    Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post


    3. We all pay taxes for things we don't support or believe in.
    When you find a realistic solution to stop that, please let us all know!
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