In America, You Must "Win the Right" to Have a Garden on Your Own Property

by LarryC
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This is good news, but it's still rather bizarre that you need special approval from the government to have a garden instead of a pointless, wasteful lawn. I realize this type of law varies from place to place, but it shows how mixed up everything is when something that should be normal is considered eccentric.

Just to come clean, I've never had a garden myself. It's still a goal of mine, though

Victory: Orlando Couple Wins Right To Have Front-Yard Garden | Off The Grid News
  • Profile picture of the author ThomM
    Things like that have been going on all over the country lately, but not all end up that well.
    Heck government interference in gardening and farming has been going on for almost 100 years.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickard_v._Filburn
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    • Profile picture of the author taskemann
      Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

      Things like that have been going on all over the country lately, but not all end up that well.
      Heck government interference in gardening and farming has been going on for almost 100 years.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickard_v._Filburn
      This is so wrong in so many ways. It's your property for god's sake.

      Don't you guys have a very pro-private property rights amendment in your Constitution? If so, how can this happen?
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      • Profile picture of the author Sarevok
        Originally Posted by taskemann View Post

        This is so wrong in so many ways. It's your property for god's sake.

        Don't you guys have a very pro-private property rights amendment in your Constitution? If so, how can this happen?
        Because people find reasons to justify it, rationalize it, and tolerate it.

        :]
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by taskemann View Post

        This is so wrong in so many ways. It's your property for god's sake.

        Don't you guys have a very pro-private property rights amendment in your Constitution? If so, how can this happen?
        No. We don't have a constitutional right to grow vegetables where ever we want. lol.

        Suburbs and cities are governed both by city regulations and many communities are governed by even more rigorous rules of home owner associations. You do have to sign an agreement with them before you purchase a house governed by one, so nothing in it should surprise you and if you really hate them, as I do, you find someplace to live that doesn't have one.
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      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
        Originally Posted by taskemann View Post

        This is so wrong in so many ways. It's your property for god's sake.

        Don't you guys have a very pro-private property rights amendment in your Constitution? If so, how can this happen?
        Private property is pretty much a myth.
        What you can do on your property is regulated on a local, state, and sometimes federal level.
        If you don't pay your property tax. the state takes your property.
        If the state wants your property they can offer you a "fair" price and if you refuse they just take it under Eminent Domain.
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
          Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

          Private property is pretty much a myth.
          What you can do on your property is regulated on a local, state, and sometimes federal level.
          If you don't pay your property tax. the state takes your property.
          If the state wants your property they can offer you a "fair" price and if you refuse they just take it under Eminent Domain.
          I haven't seen that around here in many years. The last time is when they were building Interstate 287 at the NY/NJ border (about 1992 or so). There were a few holdouts who wouldn't sell so...

          As to fences - in this part of NY you definitely need a permit. We just bought my in-laws house and the title search revealed that there was never a permit filed for the fence - which has been standing since before they moved in in 1986. Cost them fifty bucks :rolleyes:
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          • Profile picture of the author ThomM
            Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

            I haven't seen that around here in many years. The last time is when they were building Interstate 287 at the NY/NJ border (about 1992 or so). There were a few holdouts who wouldn't sell so...

            As to fences - in this part of NY you definitely need a permit. We just bought my in-laws house and the title search revealed that there was never a permit filed for the fence - which has been standing since before they moved in in 1986. Cost them fifty bucks :rolleyes:
            I don't know when it was last used around here, it's not all that common.
            I can see needing a permit for a fence in some cases. Like if it goes along a property line a permit would require actually knowing where that line is.
            The house to the north of me has a section of fence that's about 3 ft. over on my property.
            When the current owners moved in this past summer they tried to lay an invisible fence line on the outside of that fence (again on my property). I went over and talked to the wife and explained how the fence and line were on my property. I told her if the line stayed they would have to bury it so I wouldn't damage it weed eating. I also told her I don't care what they do on their property but if it's something that may be questionable as to whose property it's on to talk to me and I'd show them where the property markers are.
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            • Profile picture of the author AprilCT
              My family had a home with a double lot in the burbs while us kids were growing up and my mother put in a large garden facing the street and alleyway toward the back -- around 10 by 20 feet. The lot was up much higher than the sidewalk and we never had any complaints or problems.

              The monkey-see-monkey-do neighbor did us one better on his single lot where the back of it only faced the alleyway between the homes. His entire back lawn became a massive garden and he installed beehives there as well.

              Nobody cared since he did have a fence up around all the plants, but then he started bringing in large truckloads of fresh cow pies at least once a summer. Needless to say, the odor was horrendous. That was a rather long time ago and I can't remember why nobody made him stop the truckloads. In any event, I'll always remember the smell.

              There really was nothing more delicious than those fresh vegetables picked out of the garden. Sure wish I could do that here, but the soil on the lot basically only supports weeds...

              I tried container gardening in big tubs one year, but the "soil" we bought at the local grocery store must have been made out of used black oil and pulverized rubber tires. Everything smelled so bad, we dumped the lot of it and lost about $40 worth of the plants purchased and $25 worth of containers. The smell could not be gotten out of the large containers, so they had to go, also. Sad, but now we know to hit a real garden shop for planting soil next time we want to try this again.
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              • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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                Originally Posted by AprilCT View Post

                Nobody cared since he did have a fence up around all the plants, but then he started bringing in large truckloads of fresh cow pies at least once a summer. Needless to say, the odor was horrendous. That was a rather long time ago and I can't remember why nobody made him stop the truckloads. In any event, I'll always remember the smell.
                lol ... there's something that won't fly in most suburban communities these days ... the pungent smell of animal manure. Here in the country, it's just something that we are used to.

                Personally, I think all homeowners should be able to raise chickens on their property. Nothing better than fresh eggs. Here comes the chicken coops and roosters at 5AM in the morning. lol. Probably a good thing I moved to the country.
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                • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                  lol ... there's something that won't fly in most suburban communities these days ... the pungent smell of animal manure. Here in the country, it's just something that we are used to.
                  I grew up around farms and dairy farms and love the smell of cow manure. To me it means country and is a better smell then most perfumes.
                  On the other hand two of the farmers sons that lived by me couldn't wait to get away from the farm and that terrible odor
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                  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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                    Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                    I grew up around farms and dairy farms and love the smell of cow manure. To me it means country and is a better smell then most perfumes.
                    On the other hand two of the farmers sons that lived by me couldn't wait to get away from the farm and that terrible odor
                    I'm with you. I don't find it at all offensive.
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
    Originally Posted by LarryC View Post

    This is good news, but it's still rather bizarre that you need special approval from the government to have a garden instead of a pointless, wasteful lawn. I realize this type of law varies from place to place, but it shows how mixed up everything is when something that should be normal is considered eccentric.

    Just to come clean, I've never had a garden myself. It's still a goal of mine, though

    Victory: Orlando Couple Wins Right To Have Front-Yard Garden | Off The Grid News

    I think in this case it was more about using the front yard. Here in NY where I live, you can garden at will in your back yard (as long as it's for personal use only), but need approval for a front yard garden. People fight them because they feel it lowers property values and doesn't look nice.

    Although I do realize that there are places in this country that don't want any private gardens - which is ludicrous.
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    • Profile picture of the author LarryC
      Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

      I think in this case it was more about using the front yard. Here in NY where I live, you can garden at will in your back yard (as long as it's for personal use only), but need approval for a front yard garden. People fight them because they feel it lowers property values and doesn't look nice.

      Although I do realize that there are places in this country that don't want any private gardens - which is ludicrous.
      Yes, I realize it was about the front yard rather than the right to have a garden per se. Still, the whole idea that people have been brainwashed into thinking of lawns as aesthetically preferable to gardens is weird to me.
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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    Well, you're talking about neighborhoods where people live close together. Vegetable patches often look like total crap, with weeds and then during the winter when there are no vegetables. Home owner associations often govern what you can do with the landscaping. I really don't think I'd care for a neighborhood filled with front yard vegetable gardens any more than I would care for a neighborhood filled with junker cars.

    I live in the country and do have a vegetable garden that doesn't assault the curb appeal of homes in a neighborhood.
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    • Profile picture of the author LarryC
      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      Well, you're talking about neighborhoods where people live close together. Vegetable patches often look like total crap, with weeds and then during the winter when there are no vegetables. Home owner associations often govern what you can do with the landscaping. I really don't think I'd care for a neighborhood filled with front yard vegetable gardens any more than I would care for a neighborhood filled with junker cars.

      I live in the country and do have a vegetable garden that doesn't assault the curb appeal of homes in a neighborhood.
      I guess that's why I never wanted to live in the suburbs. I just don't get a mentality that values things like "curb appeal" over nutrition, economics and the environment.

      Lose Your Lawn
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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        Originally Posted by LarryC View Post

        I guess that's why I never wanted to live in the suburbs. I just don't get a mentality that values things like "curb appeal" over nutrition, economics and the environment.
        And it's your choice to live where you can afford to buy property, but if you choose property that is governed by city laws or homeowner associations, you agree to those rules before you buy.

        I live in the country, but we take great care with our landscaping, including the vegetable gardens. We have raised vegetable gardens that really look beautiful and I do care what the property looks like. I don't like sitting under a shade tree looking at a junk yard. It's a matter of serenity and peace of mind. Some people don't mind junk and clutter, and that's their right as long as I don't have to sit on my front porch and look at it.
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      • Profile picture of the author Horny Devil
        Banned
        There are lots worse places. I can think of a few countries where you can't have a life, never mind a garden.
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
        Originally Posted by LarryC View Post

        Yes, I realize it was about the front yard rather than the right to have a garden per se. Still, the whole idea that people have been brainwashed into thinking of lawns as aesthetically preferable to gardens is weird to me.
        I remember being told once that my lawn looked like crap. My response was that I was raising children - not grass. I'll make it look nice when they're grown and gone

        Originally Posted by LarryC View Post

        I guess that's why I never wanted to live in the suburbs. I just don't get a mentality that values things like "curb appeal" over nutrition, economics and the environment.

        Lose Your Lawn
        Because there just aren't enough people who care. Why, when there are stores selling these veggies at every corner? People are too much in a hurry, lack patience and want everything yesterday. And, they want to protect the one investment they have - home values.

        There's nothing wrong with the way they think. It's just different than you or I think.
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        • Profile picture of the author ThomM
          Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

          I remember being told once that my lawn looked like crap. My response was that I was raising children - not grass. I'll make it look nice when they're grown and gone
          For a few years we had a guy on the road who would call the town or cops on everyone for petty things.
          He was also the type that tried to keep his property looking like a cover of Better Homes and Gardens.
          On and off over the years he lived here I wouldn't mow my lawn more then twice a season
          During the seasons that I mowed, I kept the outside immaculate.
          It use to drive that guy crazy.



          Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

          Because there just aren't enough people who care. Why, when there are stores selling these veggies at every corner? People are too much in a hurry, lack patience and want everything yesterday. And, they want to protect the one investment they have - home values.

          There's nothing wrong with the way they think. It's just different than you or I think.
          The town I live in has historically been a farming community.
          Veggie stands in the summer are as common as sun light during the day.
          If you want to turn your front yard into a vegetable or flower garden it's not a problem. Almost every one I've seen have been well maintained. Also almost every one either didn't have a backyard or didn't have room in the backyard.
          My one neighbor right across from me plants tomatoes, peppers and other vegetables in the two beds against the front of his house. The beds also have a couple capitata yews in them.
          He plants beans in with annual flowers in the beds around the trees in his front yard.
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          • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
            Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

            For a few years we had a guy on the road who would call the town or cops on everyone for petty things.
            He was also the type that tried to keep his property looking like a cover of Better Homes and Gardens.
            On and off over the years he lived here I wouldn't mow my lawn more then twice a season
            During the seasons that I mowed, I kept the outside immaculate.
            It use to drive that guy crazy.




            The town I live in has historically been a farming community.
            Veggie stands in the summer are as common as sun light during the day.
            If you want to turn your front yard into a vegetable or flower garden it's not a problem. Almost every one I've seen have been well maintained. Also almost every one either didn't have a backyard or didn't have room in the backyard.
            My one neighbor right across from me plants tomatoes, peppers and other vegetables in the two beds against the front of his house. The beds also have a couple capitata yews in them.
            He plants beans in with annual flowers in the beds around the trees in his front yard.
            We get a lot of roadside stands around here too. I'm not sure if my neighborhood prohibits front lawn gardening. I do know that there is no association of any kind here. We used to keep a small garden on the side of the house, but you couldn't see it from the road. We had to stop because we couldn't figure out how to keep the deer out of it without building a 10-foot high fence - which you DO need a permit for
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            • Profile picture of the author ThomM
              Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

              We get a lot of roadside stands around here too. I'm not sure if my neighborhood prohibits front lawn gardening. I do know that there is no association of any kind here. We used to keep a small garden on the side of the house, but you couldn't see it from the road. We had to stop because we couldn't figure out how to keep the deer out of it without building a 10-foot high fence - which you DO need a permit for
              One of the things I've always liked about New York is the 'agriculture' mind set of the people, mainly away from the cities.
              It seems like every house has at least a couple of tomato plants somewhere Even the governor and state govt. promotes local growing. I think it was last year or the year before that Coumo let farmers markets operate at the thruway service areas.

              Deer are a big issue here also. Thankfully they seem to like the yews all my neighbors have over any of our vegetable gardens. The woodchucks and chipmunks on the other hand stand around drooling waiting for the veggies and strawberries to grow.
              I don't know if I'd need a permit for a deer fence or not.
              I have a friend that does fencing and unless he's doing a commercial job, I've never heard him say anything about permits for residential fences.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sarevok
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Jimmy - private property in the US is just an illusion. People generally don't know that they need to buy property patents and rights (forest, mineral, water) to really own the property. What they are actually paying is a lease...........hence, property taxes. Our land is collateral to World Bank.
    We also have "property associations" that are quite socialist in nature. My Dad lives in one but is in his 80's and closing in on his 90s so it's good for him to not have to tend to his own landscaping and yard maintenance. The association does that for him, but they require strict adherence to their landscaping. I couldn't live in one. IF I'm paying a couple hundred grand for my house, nobody is going to tell me how I'm going to keep my yard other than if I decide I wanted it to be the local landfill, I'd expect complaints.

    One of the things I remember about Germany was the layered gardens that were front "yards" in the towns in the hills. They were beautifully maintained - the tiers were made of wood, brick or stone. The gardens had a lot of flowers in them -- flowers that were chosen because they deterred bug infestations of specific veggies grown between them. I never heard of these gardens described as "ugly" and I never saw any that I thought were so.

    There are a lot of ways of landscaping gardens that can make them appealing to the eye. If you're just digging up the yard and leaving a plot of dirt between growing seasons, that probably is pretty ugly - it's also not kewl for housekeeping as in wet seasons, that mud gets tracked into the house. Gardens with raised edges, stone walks and grass between, etc, etc. are actually often more appealing than the bland stretch of short mowed grass that some people think of as appealing.
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
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    Container gardening is a heck of lot easier to manage than tilling up the yard & dealing with weeds.

    I've tilled plenty of garden plots, forget that (blisters), plus a regular garden waste a lot of water compared to container gardening.
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      Container gardening is a heck of lot easier to manage than tilling up the yard & dealing with weeds.

      I've tilled plenty of garden plots, forget that (blisters), plus a regular garden waste a lot of water compared to container gardening.
      An idea I had to covert areas of my lawn into gardens had to do with container gardening.
      The idea is to cover a small lawn area with black plastic. The set the containers on top of the plastic and plant. In the fall you remove the containers and plastic. Then dump the soil from the containers on the dead grass and create a raised bed for next year.
      My veg. garden is all raised beds.
      After I plant I cover the beds in a thick layer of partially composted mulch. The mulch keeps the weeds down and the combination keeps the soil moist. In the driest summers I only water twice a season. In the fall I 'turn in' the compost and cover with a leaf mulch.
      I also use a method of square foot gardening to increase the yield of the beds. Every year the soil gets easier to turn with a soil fork.
      There's other things I do like inoculate the soil with Fungi, companion planting, etc. that increase my yields and keep weeds and harmful insects in check.
      But until I get a decent fence up around the garden, all I'm really doing is keeping the woodchucks and chipmunks fat and content
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Thom -- you have new neighbors at that house just up the street from you? Gee....what a shame huh? :rolleyes: Glad to hear it.
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Thom -- you have new neighbors at that house just up the street from you? Gee....what a shame huh? :rolleyes: Glad to hear it.
      Sal not the house on the side where the wood piles and garden are but the other side.
      They seem nice. She just had a baby and I see her out walking with him (the baby) all the time.
      They give me the impression of not wanting to cause any problems and they appear to treat all the neighbors as neighbors.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    I can only take a certain extent of it. Too much and my asthma goes blingy. In ID there were a few factory farms in my area and those were disgusting - not a all the smell of the small family dairy, etc. Everything about a factory farm is disgusting and repulsive, though. I guess the unbearable stench is just good symbolism for them.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      I can only take a certain extent of it. Too much and my asthma goes blingy. In ID there were a few factory farms in my area and those were disgusting - not a all the smell of the small family dairy, etc. Everything about a factory farm is disgusting and repulsive, though. I guess the unbearable stench is just good symbolism for them.
      That's quite true. The farmers here lay manure in their fields. It smells like Spring to me. Now the dairy farm down the road sort of reeks as does a pig farm, even though they aren't even close to being a factory farm... but larger than most family farms.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    So far I've smelled two things that reeked more than anything in imagination. One was an oil refinery. I can't imagine how people could have lived close enough to it to endure the fumes of that oil 24/7. Would love to see the health records in that vicinity.

    The other one was a field of cauliflower after harvest when all the left over parts of the plant were left to rot on top for months before tilling. OMG did that reek. I only had to drive past it so only got a minute whiff of it as I went by. I could NOT have lived close to that field. Not sure how the neighbors managed. gaaak.
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