Microsoft, please! Do the world a huge favor..

10 years ago

Stop worrying about Microsoft and Internet Explorer.

Use Chrome and don't even think about IE.

If you can put silly things like that out of your mind you will be more productive.

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chickenfillet 10 years ago

Internet Explorer: Lately it has been reasonably good for web designers (at least for me). IE6 was a nightmare but now it renders quite consistent with other browsers.

Chrome: You do realize it's rumored that Google Chrome tracks every single site you go on, regardless of cookies, and can use that information against you or give it to the authorities when needed.
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MikeAmbrosio

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Stefan Shields

Stop worrying about Microsoft and Internet Explorer.

Use Chrome and don't even think about IE.

If you can put silly things like that out of your mind you will be more productive.

That would be a mistake if you're trying to maximize your market reach. Browser market share (source):

Microsoft Internet Explorer 8.0 21.74%
Microsoft Internet Explorer 10.0 17.50%
Firefox 25 10.43%
Microsoft Internet Explorer 9.0 9.25%
Chrome 31.0 6.77%
Chrome 30.0 5.94%
Microsoft Internet Explorer 6.0 4.92%
Firefox 24 3.68%
Microsoft Internet Explorer 11.0 3.27%
Safari 7.0 1.73%
Microsoft Internet Explorer 7.0 1.34%
Safari 6.0 1.25%
Safari 5.1 1.25%
Opera 12.x 1.21%
Safari 6.1 0.90%
Safari 5.0 0.64%
Firefox 26 0.57%
Firefox 23 0.41%
Chrome 28.0 0.41%
Chrome 21.0 0.39%
Chrome 29.0 0.38%
Firefox 3.6 0.33%
Firefox 17 0.29%
Firefox 12 0.28%
Firefox 22 0.26%
Firefox 21 0.26%
Proprietary or Undetectable 0.25%
Chrome 27.0 0.22%
Firefox 16 0.20%
Firefox 20 0.20%
Chrome 26.0 0.17%
Firefox 15 0.15%
Firefox 19 0.15%
Firefox 13 0.14%
Firefox 18 0.14%
Firefox 10 0.13%
Chrome 25.0 0.13%
Firefox 14 0.13%
Chrome 22.0 0.12%
Microsoft Internet Explorer 4.0 0.12%

Note: These statistics vary (wildly) depending on the source - but the point it that unless you're building a personal site and don't care, build your site to maximize exposure across all browsers.

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Sarevok

10 years ago

I have to admit that I'm a huge Microsoft fanboy (one of my subscribers actually accused me of being a Microsoft employee the other day lol wt...).

Anyway, I agree.

Chrome > Firefox > IE

EDIT: To be fair... 11 is their best version yet... But I still use Chrome.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

I agree. I'm not a developer, so I don't have those headaches, but as a user, I still find it miserable. I rarely ever use it. Firefox is my browser of choice.

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JohnTheJock 10 years ago

I use IE and everything looks better than it does on Chrome. I hate Firefox
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- MagicAce 10 years ago
  
  I Hate IE. Such a headache for developers.
  
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- Devid Farah 10 years ago
  
  Always hated explorer... am a firefox fan!
  
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melprise

10 years ago

People still use IE?

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Tim3

10 years ago

The problem is you are fighting the machine (MS) all the computers I have ever bought come preloaded with IE by default.
Probably more then half of the world's Windows users don't even know they can change it, and because it works okay for them, they don't.

I have never used IE (only to check my sites in it) since first reading about its security problems (don't know if that is still the case) but I just cannot imagine being without Firefox.

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Mr Bill

10 years ago

The problem isn't IE...lol The problem is clearly lazy web designers who refuse to test sites for cross browser compatibility.

I build all my sites to look great in IE8 and they work in ALL browsers perfectly because I was taught early on that a website must display in ALL popular browsers.

Just because some script kiddie develops a new flashy feature that works only on certain browsers is not the fault of IE. Most people in the world are not IM freaks and tweakers and will not be downloading an entirely new browser just to visit a website built by a lazy web designer and good luck delivering a website that doesn't work in IE to a business. If you're caught you'll be in more hot water than you bargained for.

What do you tell the business owner who's screaming down the phone at you because the website (they just paid a substantial amount of money for) doesn't work in the world's most default? "Go and tell all your visitors, clients, customers and potential visitors, potential clients and potential customers to download a foreign browser because I'm too lazy to develop a fully operational professional website?

Yeah, good luck with that one.

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ThomM

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Mr Bill

The problem isn't IE...lol The problem is clearly lazy web designers who refuse to test sites for cross browser compatibility.

I build all my sites to look great in IE8 and they work in ALL browsers perfectly because I was taught early on that a website must display in ALL popular browsers.

Just because some script kiddie develops a new flashy feature that works only on certain browsers is not the fault of IE. Most people in the world are not IM freaks and tweakers and will not be downloading an entirely new browser just to visit a website built by a lazy web designer and good luck delivering a website that doesn't work in IE to a business. If you're caught you'll be in more hot water than you bargained for.

What do you tell the business owner who's screaming down the phone at you because the website (they just paid a substantial amount of money for) doesn't work in the world's most default? "Go and tell all your visitors, clients, customers and potential visitors, potential clients and potential customers to download a foreign browser because I'm too lazy to develop a fully operational professional website?

Yeah, good luck with that one.

Are you saying IE is finally up to standards that the other browsers always used?
I remember when I use to build sites I always had to put an IE hack in the code for the sites to display properly in IE.
Good to hear microsoft is catching up.

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Mr Bill

10 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Are you saying IE is finally up to standards that the other browsers always used?
I remember when I use to build sites I always had to put an IE hack in the code for the sites to display properly in IE.
Good to hear microsoft is catching up.

No, I'm not (obviously). What I am saying is that if I'm going to create a website for a client I will not get upset because "a" browser didn't do what I wanted it to do (regardless if other browsers can). As a professional website builder I will not use any scripts, effects, designs or widgets that do not work in all modern browsers. To do so would be irresponsible, contemptuous and toddler level childish behaviour. If an effect or design does not (or can not) display correctly in all browsers then it's my job as a designer/builder to make sure I don't use it - it's as simple as that.

I'm not talking about IE4 compatability. I'm talking a minimum IE8 for every good reasons outlined above. Quite simply if my site doesn't look perfect in IE8 I should not be presenting the site for sale or I risk coming off as a an unprofessional back-yarder. Lack of skill is no excuse for poor design.

I'm not going to start jumping up and down and crying just because a browser won't do what "I" want it to do or what some "other" browser can do - no matter how cool it is. I will work within the parameters of my environment and I certainly would never ever consider delivering and accepting money for a website that doesn't work in all modern browsers - and like it or not IE8 is the default browser for Win7 and the highest IE browser for XP users...that's a LOT of people to piss off. I'd be out of business in a second.

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ThomM

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Mr Bill

No, I'm not (obviously). What I am saying is that if I'm going to create a website for a client I will not get upset because "a" browser didn't do what I wanted it to do (regardless if other browsers can). As a professional website builder I will not use any scripts, effects, designs or widgets that do not work in all modern browsers. To do so would be irresponsible, contemptuous and toddler level childish behaviour. If an effect or design does not (or can not) display correctly in all browsers then it's my job as a designer/builder to make sure I don't use it - it's as simple as that.

I'm not talking about IE4 compatability. I'm talking a minimum IE8 for every good reasons outlined above. Quite simply if my site doesn't look perfect in IE8 I should not be presenting the site for sale or I risk coming off as a an unprofessional back-yarder. Lack of skill is no excuse for poor design.

I'm not going to start jumping up and down and crying just because a browser won't do what "I" want it to do or what some "other" browser can do - no matter how cool it is. I will work within the parameters of my environment and I certainly would never ever consider delivering and accepting money for a website that doesn't work in all modern browsers - and like it or not IE8 is the default browser for Win7 and the highest IE browser for XP users...that's a LOT of people to piss off. I'd be out of business in a second.

I understand. I haven't built any sites in a few years and just remember when I did that IE didn't follow w3c standards.
When I would check a site I was building they would always look right in every browser till I'd get to IE. Then I'd have to find the IE CSS hack to add to "fix" it for IE.
From your first post it sounded like microsoft was finally making IE W3C standards compliant.

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Mark Singletary

10 years ago

I love and support Microsoft and have for years. Just like with most any love relationship though, there are times when you can't stand them and you just wish they would go away and soon!

For example, Microsoft has helped me feed my family over the years and at the same time is one of the big reasons for losing my hair.

I use IE daily as my default browser and every time everything gets locked up, won't load right, etc. I think I'm going to switch to Chrome or FF but then when I do I realize that the occasional lockup or slowness is generally better than them. (Note: I'm writing this after having this internal conversation just yesterday so it's fresh on my mind. But every time I stray I keep coming back to my "true love".)

However, it is just a tool. If the tool doesn't work find one that does. I think for many developers it MAY be a case of not knowing how to properly use the tool. Of course it could be that the tool just sucks for certain things - just like Chrome and FF sucks for certain things. None of them are perfect 100% of the time.

Mark

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kayebee

10 years ago

I am also not a big fan of internet explorer. Some sites won't load but appear fine in chrome. It could be just my computer but it's new. :/ However... I do wish they would fix movie maker. Only one older version works fine (6.0) but the newer version won't work for me in Windows 8. I love the simplicity of the program but there are too many glitches.

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hardraysnight

10 years ago

microsoft, please do the world a huge favour and have a huge sale, or stop whinging about piracy

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Mark Singletary

10 years ago

Originally Posted by hardraysnight

microsoft, please do the world a huge favour and have a huge sale, or stop whinging about piracy

So is your point that if a company produces something expensive then it's okay to steal it?

Mark

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tagiscom

10 years ago

True IE sucks, you work hard on a page and it looks great, then go to IE, and it is a dogs breakfast!

I developed some software, and it took forever to get the screen background to look good in IE!

Glad l am doing graphic based products now!!! He, he!

Shane

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lanfear63 10 years ago

Not only should they drop IE but completely revert Windows 8 back to the Windows 7 format. I don't want a giant touch screen cell phone on my computer thanks. Especially when you have to pay extra for a touch screen computer!

And, who dreamed up the idea that it was easier to have your hands outstretched all day trying to drag things around with your fingers on a less than responsive touch screen and smear it!
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GarrieWilson

10 years ago

Originally Posted by lanfear63

Not only should they drop IE but completely revert Windows 8 back to the Windows 7 format. I don't want a giant touch screen cell phone on my computer thanks. Especially when you have to pay extra for a touch screen computer!

You can have it go to the standard desktop automatically.

Originally Posted by tagiscom

True IE sucks, you work hard on a page and it looks great, then go to IE, and it is a dogs breakfast!

If it doesn't work in IE then you didn't work very hard.

If people/developers used/tested IE from the start it wouldn't be "hard" to make sites work in all browsers.

OP: If your gifs aren't loading it's your codes fault. Not IEs fault.,

Garrie

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thunderbird

10 years ago

Originally Posted by GarrieWilson

You can have it go to the standard desktop automatically.<snip>

I've got an idea. Have it be standard desktop without that Windows 8 stuff, ie NOT Windows 8.

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GarrieWilson

10 years ago

Originally Posted by thunderbird

I've got an idea. Have it be standard desktop without that Windows 8 stuff, ie NOT Windows 8.

Then it wouldn't be a "hybrid" OS. Which MS needs it to be for future growth.

If people don't like the UI, change it to a more Windows 7 one.

How to Make Windows 8 or 8.1 Look and Feel Like Windows 7

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thunderbird

10 years ago

Originally Posted by GarrieWilson

Then it wouldn't be a "hybrid" OS. Which MS needs it to be for future growth.

If people don't like the UI, change it to a more Windows 7 one.

How to Make Windows 8 or 8.1 Look and Feel Like Windows 7

Imposing that experimental clunker on consumers who overwhelmingly dislike it, was a stupid way to introduce a "hybrid" system that they didn't even opt for. BTW, I had already completed those tedious steps to make this annoying clunky albatross semi-manageable, long before joining this thread. Windows 8 still sucks.

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GarrieWilson

10 years ago

Originally Posted by thunderbird

... was a stupid way to introduce a "hybrid" system that they didn't even opt for.

They did opt for it. They purchased the PC with it.

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ThomM 10 years ago

Originally Posted by GarrieWilson

They did opt for it. They purchased the PC with it.

First thing I did when I bought my last PC was get rid of the Windows O.S. and install Linux Mint.
No problems and a faster PC
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thunderbird

10 years ago

Originally Posted by GarrieWilson

They did opt for it. They purchased the PC with it.

Because the store offered nothing else. That is not opting for it.

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tagiscom

10 years ago

Originally Posted by GarrieWilson

You can have it go to the standard desktop automatically.

If it doesn't work in IE then you didn't work very hard.

If people/developers used/tested IE from the start it wouldn't be "hard" to make sites work in all browsers.

OP: If your gifs aren't loading it's your codes fault. Not IEs fault.,

Garrie

Hmmmm, not really!

I developed a background closed image so text, etc could go over the top!

And if l did it in IE first then the formatting would be off, in FF, and virtually every other browser! Off meaning the text would spill over the bottom of the graphic.

I found in order for it to behave in IE, l would have to do the text in HTML, not the slack site builder l was using!

Extra hassle to make it look good!

I would say that is why IE is p*** people off, because you have to jump through extra hoops in order to do something!

It isn't my codes fault, it is Microsoft not bringing their browser in line with market standards, because of laziness or trying to monopolize market share!

Shane

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GarrieWilson 10 years ago

Originally Posted by tagiscom

I developed a background closed image so text, etc could go over the top!

A little CSS does that in IE.

And if l did it in IE first then the formatting would be off, in FF, and virtually every other browser! Off meaning the text would spill over the bottom of the graphic.

That's why you test as so you go. When I do sites I test on the major 3 as I go. That makes it EASY to fix/correct code.

I found in order for it to behave in IE, l would have to do the text in HTML, not the slack site builder l was using!

Obviously the site builder was spitting out bad code. If not, it would create cross-browser compatible code.

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lanfear63 10 years ago

Originally Posted by GarrieWilson

They did opt for it. They purchased the PC with it.

Thats why I cling to my Vista computer of 5 years (going on 6) vintage. was top of the range at the time. Still a fast machine. You can only get windows 8 new pc's now so not a really a choice but to opt for it. All that's out there.

The Windows standard screen on 8 has stuff missing and when I do I will get one of those free shell's to make it look and behave like vista or seven. Why change things that people are familiar with, grew up with, got used to and like, just make them more stable would be all you would desire.

Sure cell phones need an apps like enviroment cos everything's so small, can get on with that.

So hoping windows 9 comes with the option when starting for the first, would you like a Windows 7 (traditional) type enviroment to boot or a giant cell phone one. Make your choice (changeable if you desire later.)

That way Microsoft will cover all bases.
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hardraysnight 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Mark Singletary

So is your point that if a company produces something expensive then it's okay to steal it?

Mark

is exactly ten letters?
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tomm

10 years ago

Responsive layouts are hype.. why do I have to learn 2 different UIs for each responsive site? And most of the time, the developers try to guess what I need when I'm on a mobile device and most of the time they are wrong..

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thunderbird

10 years ago

I thought you were going to say get rid of Windows 8.1 and provide purchases with Windows 7 replacements. That would be nice.

UPDATE: I missed lanfear63's post which stated it better than I.

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Mr Bill

10 years ago

No, and if every browser followed all the same standards it would obviously be better but my point is that there's nothing anyone can do about it. It is what it is so I ALWAYS build for IE8 FIRST so I don't have to worry about anyone getting upset. If were talking about some weird old browser that no one ever uses I'd understand but this is IE8 it's used by millions and millions of people every day and for many (non nerdy IM types) it's the only browser they know even exists.

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Yous000

10 years ago

Couldn't have said it better myself. I personally have pHp problems only in IE that I have to fix to cater to that one browser.

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Mr Bill 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Yous000

Couldn't have said it better myself. I personally have pHp problems only in IE that I have to fix to cater to that one browser.

So the obvious solution is to stop building that way and build what you know IE can do and avoid the problem all together, saving time, aggravation and complaints. Working backwards to IE will always waste your time so don't do it just like you wouldn't build a site to display perfectly in IBMWebExplorer (1994) then complain it doesn't work in IE, FF or Chrome - who's fault would that be? IE8's? Microsoft's? FF's? Chrome's? Or the Site designer/builder's?
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SteveJohnson

10 years ago

Baselining a design on IE8 means no practical HTML5 support, clunky JavaScript support, and about as many limitations compared to modern browsers as IE6.

*MY* clients overwhelmingly favor modern techniques and functionality and roll their eyes when I tell them that it would cost extra - and in many cases would be impossible - to make their site function in IE8 the same as it does in a modern browser.

Designing primarily for IE8 - a browser that has less than 10% market penetration (7% worldwide according to StatCounter StatCounter Global Stats - Browser, OS, Search Engine including Mobile Market Share) - would just be nuts and a disservice to my clients.

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Microsoft, please! Do the world a huge favor..

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