Ready to have your understanding of economics turned upside down?

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Turns out that just giving people free money is good for society as a whole.

https://decorrespondent.nl/541/why-w...50894-e44e2c00
  • Profile picture of the author socialentry
    Maybe the govt can simply buy a giant printing press and print money and just give it away.

    Maybe they could use army chinook helicopters to drop the money on the populace

    With a big enough press, I suppose they could at least print two or three trillion dollars within a week or so

    0% homeslessness literally ... overnight!
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      In my opinion, a poor article. Credits the wrong person at one point. Refers to "economist Matt Bruenig" - Bruenig is a senior in college majoring in philosophy and black studies and writes on progressive liberal policies. In any event, the theory came from a book by Sachs...an economist.

      If you are writing for a Dutch publication - and offering "insight" on the poverty and income in several different countries....facts count.

      0% homeslessness literally ... overnight!
      Back in 2009 or 2010 I listened as woman explained her solution to the economic mess. She thought we should put people to work building homes and give the homes to poor people and the homeless. Seriously - that was her plan.
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      • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
        Yep, Australia tried this with the Aboriginal population in rural or remote areas.

        Failed miserably or made things worse, free money, free accomodation, etc!


        It is like anything, give the money to the wrong homeless person, etc and it won't last long.


        Or give it to the wrong unemployed person, and it will go into entertainment, beer, or a new tv!


        But of course give it to the right person, and he will set up a business and employ more unemployed!


        Shane
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    A small experiment involving thirteen homeless men takes off. They are street veterans. Some of them have been sleeping on the cold tiles of The Square Mile, the financial center of the world, for more than forty years. Their presence is far from cheap. Police, legal services, healthcare: the thirteen cost taxpayers hundreds of thousands of pounds. Every year.
    If it were even 1000 pounds every year for all, it would be FAR too much. If the police merely jailed those that violated the law and only offered the basics, maybe they would better their situation for NOTHING. If they are simply homeless, and own no property, where do the legal services come into play? And healthcare? BTW Americans believe all you guys get "free healthcare" anyway.

    That spring, a local charity takes a radical decision. The street veterans are to become the beneficiaries of an innovative social experiment. No more food stamps, food kitchen dinners or sporadic shelter stays for them. The men will get a drastic bailout, financed by taxpayers. They'll each receive 3,000 pounds, cash, with no strings attached. The men are free to decide what to spend it on; counseling services are completely optional. No requirements, no hard questions. The only question they have to answer is:

    What do you think is good for you?
    First of all, this is like a fairy tale! PHONE? WHY? I mean that ALONE doesn't do much and WHO do they call? Dictionary? WHY? I mean it isn't like they were constantly exposed to words they didn't know. And a passport IS the ultimate identification as far as governments are concerned, and could help with things like opening bank accounts or travel, but it is an ODD first item for a homeless person.

    ALSO, they only spent 800 pounds in the first year?!?!? OK, that is like $1600 or less, historically. Less than 3 months rent.

    And don't forget, especially in EUROPE, they could be doing this in SEVERAL countries! SUPPOSE, JUST SUPPOSE, that they went to hostels, and lived in a given country for 3 months so they weren't taxed ANYWHERE. MAYBE they were RICH! HEY, I found a hostel that looks kind of nice. A "homeless" person would LOVE the lowest level of privacy. Only about $20/day about $1800 for 3 months.

    If freemoney doesn't make people lazy, why do so many people "work" SO HARD to get free money without work? THINK ABOUT IT! They are saying they DON'T want gainful employment, but want the money.

    YEAH, some could do a LOT with even $15. It could get them right back on their feet. But MANY more could be given $500K, and squander it in MINUTES!

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      If it were even 1000 pounds every year for all, it would be FAR too much. If the police merely jailed those that violated the law and only offered the basics, maybe they would better their situation for NOTHING. If they are simply homeless, and own no property, where do the legal services come into play? And healthcare? BTW Americans believe all you guys get "free healthcare" anyway.

      If freemoney doesn't make people lazy, why do so many people "work" SO HARD to get free money without work? THINK ABOUT IT! They are saying they DON'T want gainful employment, but want the money.

      YEAH, some could do a LOT with even $15. It could get them right back on their feet. But MANY more could be given $500K, and squander it in MINUTES!

      Steve
      Yep, this article is a bit too black and white for my liking. The Casino is full of even middle class idiots that have lost their job, etc and blow a fortune to try to get ahead.

      This reminds me of someone who lost 100k, then drive his 4 wheel drive through the front door!

      Maybe he would feel better, but the Casino would just spend $1500 of that 100k, on new doors, and that would be that!


      Bloody stupid person! Period! :rolleyes:

      100k should guarantee you wealth in PPC! From what l have heard 10k would do it!


      Sure l could go in there with a grand, put it on red and pray it comes up!

      But investing it in your education and working hard on a IM, or other idea, is far better.

      At least if you fail with the idea, you have learned something, so it is easier or more profitable next time.


      Shane
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    I think the idea would be worth a shot. People who have never been poor are so completely clueless about what it's like. It's entrapment. You can't get a job without an address. Period. The "paperwork" doesn't allow for it. You can't get ahead by being enrolled in a welfare program that supports only basic needs - then takes more money away from you if you go to work and make x percent of what they give you than you would get to stay on the welfare. If our welfare system weren't so drastically flawed, people would not become entrapped and give up at the rates they do.

    People in this country have a real smug attitude about the poor being lazy. I guess that is what they need to think to make themselves feel special - and above ever falling into poverty. When an emergency hits, though, and takes every bit of cash they have and drops them into penury. With all the regulations etc and so on, it can be impossible for even industrious people to get a footing again.

    Are you over 50? You think it would be no problem getting back in the groove again if you lost everything? One bad illness can do it to you. If you don't have some extremely specialized, highly demanded talents, you're not going to get shit from shinola of a footing again. There's a quote in this article that is so true that it's amazing to me people don't "get" it. "You aren't going to pull yourself up by your bootstraps if you don't have any boots."

    I don't trust anyone's ideas on the poor if they have never been dirt down all out poor before themselves in an economy and corporate government environment like we have today. I've never seen a system so set up with catch-22's and booby traps as the one we live in today. Not just for those wanting to become gainfullly (read: bare sustenance) employed - but those trying to start their own businesses as well. Example? In NV most employers require drug tests. Fine....except they want the employee to pay for the testing. They justify it by saying they will reimburse if you pass it. Just where does someone who is completely strapped, fighting to keep food on the table and enough gas in the car to look for jobs come up with money for drug testing?

    Maybe the solution in the article won't work here - but the system we have sure isn't. You can't tell me that millions of people in this country are suddenly in deep financial trouble because they are lazy. That's the most inane, self-satisfied, and elitist attitude I've ever seen from humans. Good grief. Pray you never have a problem that you need help to solve that isn't covered by "what we will give you money for" in the gov handbooks.
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    Sal
    When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
    Beyond the Path

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    • Profile picture of the author socialentry
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      I think the idea would be worth a shot. People who have never been poor are so completely clueless about what it's like. It's entrapment. You can't get a job without an address. Period. The "paperwork" doesn't allow for it. You can't get ahead by being enrolled in a welfare program that supports only basic needs - then takes more money away from you if you go to work and make x percent of what they give you than you would get to stay on the welfare. If our welfare system weren't so drastically flawed, people would not become entrapped and give up at the rates they do.

      People in this country have a real smug attitude about the poor being lazy. I guess that is what they need to think to make themselves feel special - and above ever falling into poverty. When an emergency hits, though, and takes every bit of cash they have and drops them into penury. With all the regulations etc and so on, it can be impossible for even industrious people to get a footing again.

      Are you over 50? You think it would be no problem getting back in the groove again if you lost everything? One bad illness can do it to you. If you don't have some extremely specialized, highly demanded talents, you're not going to get shit from shinola of a footing again. There's a quote in this article that is so true that it's amazing to me people don't "get" it. "You aren't going to pull yourself up by your bootstraps if you don't have any boots."

      I don't trust anyone's ideas on the poor if they have never been dirt down all out poor before themselves in an economy and corporate government environment like we have today. I've never seen a system so set up with catch-22's and booby traps as the one we live in today. Not just for those wanting to become gainfullly (read: bare sustenance) employed - but those trying to start their own businesses as well. Example? In NV most employers require drug tests. Fine....except they want the employee to pay for the testing. They justify it by saying they will reimburse if you pass it. Just where does someone who is completely strapped, fighting to keep food on the table and enough gas in the car to look for jobs come up with money for drug testing?

      Maybe the solution in the article won't work here - but the system we have sure isn't. You can't tell me that millions of people in this country are suddenly in deep financial trouble because they are lazy. That's the most inane, self-satisfied, and elitist attitude I've ever seen from humans. Good grief. Pray you never have a problem that you need help to solve that isn't covered by "what we will give you money for" in the gov handbooks.
      Maybe we should just grab a hobo and make him the president of the United States.

      Or kidnap all the congressmen and replace them with random hoboes.
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      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
        Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

        Maybe we should just grab a hobo and make him the president of the United States.

        Or kidnap all the congressmen and replace them with random hoboes.
        They can't do much worse then the community organizer and lawyers we've got now.
        At least the hoboes aren't in the pockets of the corporations and wall street, yet.
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        • Profile picture of the author socialentry
          Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

          They can't do much worse then the community organizer and lawyers we've got now.
          At least the hoboes aren't in the pockets of the corporations and wall street, yet.
          But what if the hoboes decide to declare themselves Maoists.

          Remember: random hoboes not libertarian hoboes
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          • Profile picture of the author ThomM
            Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

            But what if the hoboes decide to declare themselves Maoists.

            Remember: random hoboes not libertarian hoboes
            They can declare themselves as anything they want. How is that different from the current crop of politicians we have?
            I mean Democrats mostly say they are liberal when they are anything but liberal and most republicans say they are conservative when they are anything but conservative.
            As long as we still have a constitution and follow it they can call themselves moonies for all I care. I have a bigger problem with politicians that try to circumvent the constitution, then with politicians who make up names for themselves.
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            • Profile picture of the author socialentry
              Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

              They can declare themselves as anything they want. How is that different from the current crop of politicians we have?
              I mean Democrats mostly say they are liberal when they are anything but liberal and most republicans say they are conservative when they are anything but conservative.
              As long as we still have a constitution and follow it they can call themselves moonies for all I care. I have a bigger problem with politicians that try to circumvent the constitution, then with politicians who make up names for themselves.
              In general, if you have an army and a little more then a couple of trillions to spend, you try to live up to your name.
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              • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

                In general, if you have an army and a little more then a couple of trillions to spend, you try to live up to your name.
                Tell that to the current (and recently past) politicians.
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                Life: Nature's way of keeping meat fresh
                Getting old ain't for sissy's
                As you are I was, as I am you will be
                You can't fix stupid, but you can always out smart it.

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                • Profile picture of the author socialentry
                  Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                  Tell that to the current (and recently past) politicians.

                  There is a proverb: every country gets the government it deserves.....
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                  • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                    Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

                    There is a proverb: every country gets the government it deserves.....
                    Can't argue with that.
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                    Life: Nature's way of keeping meat fresh
                    Getting old ain't for sissy's
                    As you are I was, as I am you will be
                    You can't fix stupid, but you can always out smart it.

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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

          They can't do much worse then the community organizer and lawyers we've got now.
          At least the hoboes aren't in the pockets of the corporations and wall street, yet.
          NEITHER are many workers. There IS a difference! Many workers LOATHE that kind of action, and they COULD support it but don't.

          Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author HeySal
        Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

        Maybe we should just grab a hobo and make him the president of the United States.

        Or kidnap all the congressmen and replace them with random hoboes.
        Maybe we should. There are one huge amount of geniuses in this country that were blown out of our public "education" systems. 2 of the mountain men knew in CO (hermits for the most part) had hella extreme intelligence - but hated the system. They were guys with great ideas that I'd have trusted with my life. I can't say that of ONE - not ONE politician in our offices today.

        You judge a book by its cover and sometimes you miss an extraordinary read.
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        Sal
        When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
        Beyond the Path

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        • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
          Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

          Maybe we should. There are one huge amount of geniuses in this country that were blown out of our public "education" systems. 2 of the mountain men (hermits for the most part) had hella extreme intelligence - but hated the system. They were guys with great ideas that I'd have trusted with my life. I can't say that of ONE - not ONE politician in our offices today.

          You judge a book by its cover and sometimes you miss an extraordinary read.
          Sounds like "Trading Places" with Eddie Murphy!

          I know that he was more of a con-artist type hobo, but still turned into a stock market genius, when given the chance!


          Shane
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        • Profile picture of the author socialentry
          Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

          Maybe we should. There are one huge amount of geniuses in this country that were blown out of our public "education" systems. 2 of the mountain men (hermits for the most part) had hella extreme intelligence - but hated the system. They were guys with great ideas that I'd have trusted with my life. I can't say that of ONE - not ONE politician in our offices today.

          You judge a book by its cover and sometimes you miss an extraordinary read.
          USA becomes hoboville?
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      I think the idea would be worth a shot. People who have never been poor are so completely clueless about what it's like. It's entrapment. You can't get a job without an address. Period. The "paperwork" doesn't allow for it. You can't get ahead by being enrolled in a welfare program that supports only basic needs - then takes more money away from you if you go to work and make x percent of what they give you than you would get to stay on the welfare. If our welfare system weren't so drastically flawed, people would not become entrapped and give up at the rates they do.
      I for one HAVE spoke against the theory that money should be taken away dollar by dollar, EVEN HERE. I had a taste of that listening to retired people, INCLUDING MY MOTHER, tell me of how social security is taken away dollar by dollar. That means that unless you have a job paying well over what you earn you can really never break even. You not only have to pay for your time, loss of flexibility, and taxes, but ALSO what you HAD. MANY of them work jobs, even some DEMEANING AND LOW PAYING jobs, so they can be paid under the table. MAINLY to avoid the loss of current REPAYMENT OF THEIR INCOME.

      You know, that would be simplified a LOT if we replaced the WAGE tax with an INCOME TAX! We don't really have an income tax in the US. We haven't since the 1940s. AGAIN, from this email:

      In 1943 the US Congress passed the current Tax Payment Act to fund another war, WW II. For the first time in history, the US government began taking taxes out of workers paychecks before the worker was paid. The workers allowed this to happen in the name of fighting for freedom and liberty. The problem is: WW II is over, but the US never stopped collecting taxes. Hmm
      Of course MANY that are >40 or so will find it HARDER to get such work ESPECIALLY if they have not had such a position for some extended span of time, like even a few months. Some will practically disregard your resume after 6 months. STILL, that is no reason to be careless! You don't tell your 5yo kid... "HEY KIDDO! You have a REAL hardship relying on me to go to movies, etc.... Here's $1000 bucks, and the car keys. You can do it all yourself now! HAVE FUN!"!

      People in this country have a real smug attitude about the poor being lazy. I guess that is what they need to think to make themselves feel special - and above ever falling into poverty. When an emergency hits, though, and takes every bit of cash they have and drops them into penury. With all the regulations etc and so on, it can be impossible for even industrious people to get a footing again.
      I think they have simply had their fill of lazy people at least playing poor!

      Are you over 50? You think it would be no problem getting back in the groove again if you lost everything? One bad illness can do it to you. If you don't have some extremely specialized, highly demanded talents, you're not going to get shit from shinola of a footing again. There's a quote in this article that is so true that it's amazing to me people don't "get" it. "You aren't going to pull yourself up by your bootstraps if you don't have any boots."
      BELIEVE ME, I thought my current job was OVER when I had my operation. I literally BEGGED to come back to work, and started BEFORE the doctor said I should. One day my boss asked when I thought I could come back to work. I practically sank into the floor feeling almost like I was yelling as I said "I CAN NOOOOOOOOW!"! I had said it at LEAST a couple weeks earlier. It DID take me like 4 weeks to recover. You see, my employer basically finds me work, and places me, and I had to give up to previous job to have the operation. I was out of work TWO MONTHS, as I recall.

      The TRUTH was that the doctor said ONLY that it was OK, but he would suggest waiting. I had JUST started physical therapy. I'll NEVER know how my chest would have healed, if I waited.

      I don't trust anyone's ideas on the poor if they have never been dirt down all out poor before themselves in an economy and corporate government environment like we have today. I've never seen a system so set up with catch-22's and booby traps as the one we live in today. Not just for those wanting to become gainfullly (read: bare sustenance) employed - but those trying to start their own businesses as well. Example? In NV most employers require drug tests. Fine....except they want the employee to pay for the testing. They justify it by saying they will reimburse if you pass it. Just where does someone who is completely strapped, fighting to keep food on the table and enough gas in the car to look for jobs come up with money for drug testing?
      I'm sure the companies didn't START that way. It is getting BAD! As for the other things? Don't get me started. I had a nice company going in the 80s that COULD have taken off, but there were too many problems put into place by banks and the government. I had a 100% return policy, with NO restocking fee. ONE person killed THAT thinking. I took EXTRA long to pay him the last refund, just to leave a bad taste in his mouth. It wasn't like he bought things I stocked or recommended. NOPE! He bought special stuff few others would buy, and it was leading edge. ONE item, for example, was the precursor to VGA. Of course, when it caught on, it WAS VGA. A NEW standard with a standard controller, different connections, and some specs were BETTER.

      Maybe the solution in the article won't work here - but the system we have sure isn't. You can't tell me that millions of people in this country are suddenly in deep financial trouble because they are lazy. That's the most inane, self-satisfied, and elitist attitude I've ever seen from humans. Good grief. Pray you never have a problem that you need help to solve that isn't covered by "what we will give you money for" in the gov handbooks.
      MOST got into financial trouble because of uncertainty, a poor economy, changes in laws, increased fees, etc... Yeah, to say otherwise would beg the question of how it became a global phenomenon. I leave you with a few thoughts I recently got in an email. They may turn out to be prescient. It leads one to wonder. Realize that WWI started during a "recession". WWII started during a depression.

      "Of all the enemies to public liberty, war is perhaps, the most to be
      dreaded because it comprises and develops the germ of every other.
      War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes …
      known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few.…
      No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare."
      --James Madison

      “The Theory and Practice of Oligarchical Collectivism
      It does not matter if the war is not real, or when it is real, it does not matter if victory is not possible.....The war is not meant to be won, it is meant to be continuous.....The essential act of modern warfare is the destruction of the produce of human labor.... A hierarchial society is only possible on the basis of poverty and ignorance...In principle the war effort is always planned to keep society on the brink of starvation.....The war is waged by the ruling group against it's own subjects, and it's object is not victory over Eurasia or East Asia ( or Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, or Libya, or NOW SYRIA and SOON IRAN) but to keep the very structure of society intact.” George Orwell
      1984
      It really makes you think, huh? Germany was in serious trouble. Do you think hitler would have come to power, or even had proposed what he did, at another time?

      It STARTED based on the theory... "THEY HAVE SO MUCH"!

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Steve - you're one of the lucky few who have training and experience in a very demanded area of work. I don't think you will have much problem no matter what goes on. Education has stopped guaranteeing a decent position, though, and while some people want to think that just everyone can get a college degree in this country, that's garbage. Some people are in circumstances that keep them from being able to get out of the catch-22 built in to our system. I've seen people struggle to get anywhere and they are just continually knocked down at every turn due to no fault of their own. It's going to get worse, too.

    The frogs are beginning to boil already.
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    Sal
    When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
    Beyond the Path

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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Steve - you're one of the lucky few who have training and experience in a very demanded area of work.
      Well, I actually PLANNED it that way.

      I don't think you will have much problem no matter what goes on.
      You never know. If things keep going as they are, I could find myself working in some evil partnership, or having to change careers.

      Education has stopped guaranteeing a decent position, though, and while some people want to think that just everyone can get a college degree in this country, that's garbage. Some people are in circumstances that keep them from being able to get out of the catch-22 built in to our system. I've seen people struggle to get anywhere and they are just continually knocked down at every turn due to no fault of their own. It's going to get worse, too.
      Yeah, I KNOW! I am surprised how the "educational system" has held on. STILL, It is BREAKING!!!!!!! They used to GUARANTEE some things that they now can't, and be the only game in town while they are now merely a busride. How much longer before they are seen as NOTHING!

      The frogs are beginning to boil already.
      YOU'VE SAID IT!

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Planning doesn't always work out, though, Steve. When I was at U of M, I had a career counselor there tell me not to bother with computer classes because they were just something secretaries would use instead of typewriters. Serious. I'd like to wipe the floor with that dude now. As it is, I would need to get back into classes just to get into the most solid positions for my fields, and there is no hope of funding to do it........then the costs of certificates afterward, too, just to be allowed to work. It would cost thousands on thousands and years for me to get into teaching, for example. Now - where do people who are already educated but displaced get that kind of funding at our age? Student loans that aren't repaid (even if you can get one after 50), often now result in jail time. (Yeah debtors prisons are back.). There is legislation in the house right now to make it illegal to sue your boss......so they can discriminate any damned way they want legally.........think "age discrimination". That's for OUR age people.

    Younger people still have student loans....but they are in extreme danger of incarceration if something happens and that degree doesn't turn into a job right away after school. At the rate new regulations are being passed and different areas of the market are being squashed......that makes even those who did magnificent career planning at high risk.

    Like I said - you got lucky......so far.
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    Sal
    When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
    Beyond the Path

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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Planning doesn't always work out, though, Steve. When I was at U of M, I had a career counselor there tell me not to bother with computer classes because they were just something secretaries would use instead of typewriters. Serious. I'd like to wipe the floor with that dude now.
      Yeah, the SAME thing happened with Radio and TV. People that knew NOTHING about it made snap decisions. About the time YOU left highschool, computers almost seemed like a joke. MAYBE the #2 company was JUST starting to get going, but FEW knew about them. IBM got where they were with two things. 1. A FAST computer that could quickly process complex things. 2. A silly program almost like Windows(in how it worked) that allowed groups of people to be on terminals and interface wit the computer. But it was EXPENSIVE! The #2 company didn't really start to take off until the early 70s. They WERE expensive, but DEC(#2) was like a FORD compared to IBM's BENTLEY. So people knew about computers mostly from rumor and what little they saw.

      Not too long after I got my first computer job, I told my boss how a $1000 computer could do FAR more than our computer that cost well into the 10s of thousands. He decided to have me take him to a local computer dealer. I had no idea why. We walked in and he walked out saying there was nothing to see. about maybe 2years later, he paid $300 for a little motherboard and I created a system that ran faster than he imagined. Maybe 2years after that, he paid about $3000 and we replaced the entire dec system we had. ONE of the dec drives cost over $20K! The new system had 20% more storage than all that on the old dec system. Thanks to a little routine, the computer ACTED like a dec system and nobody had to know the difference. TODAY, DEC is bankrupt, and the company I worked for supports only IBM windows systems.

      Anyway, it seemed no colleges really taught programming so far as I saw.


      Like I said - you got lucky......so far.
      Yeah, I know the industry's days of being so good are NUMBERED. Regarding firing or discriminating against the old, that was supposedly made illegal DECADES ago. Of course, I have NO illusions that they may do that, etc... MY position now is odd. My employers hire me for the experience, record, good ability to assess candidates, and because people hire me. People would GLADLY hire me because they can fire me with NO hesitation. THEY won't do that because of the experience, and ability to document and explain well. NORMALLY people hire to fill a need. If you are in a protected class, like middle aged, it is harder to fire you, so they rather not hire.

      Steve
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