U.S. Cops Out of Control?

by LarryC 81 replies
Cops who beat a homeless man senseless (Edit: beat to death), caught on video, were acquitted in a case reminiscent of Rodney King.

There is blatant video evidence of multiple cops beating up a helpless victim. No matter how violent or crazy the guy was (and this is far from clear), there is no excuse for supposedly professional law enforcement officials behaving this way.

Then a couple of days ago, we have a retired cop who shot someone in a movie theater after an argument over texting.

I realize these are just a couple of incidents, but if cops can get away with this kind of thing without fear of prosecution, we're well on the way to becoming a third world fascist police state.


Texting Allegedly Triggers Movie Theater Shooting by Retired Police Captain - ABC News
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    I realize these are just a couple of incidents
    ...out of how many incidents per day across the country involving police action???

    Could it be there is more to these stories - outside the view of a quick video? A helpless, homeless man? - whose mother had to take out a restraining order to protect herself from him? She wanted cops to protect her from her son - but then says there was no reason for the violence against him.

    They told jurors that Thomas was not a helpless, homeless mentally ill man, but a violent and dangerous person who had a history of drug use and was homeless because he had attacked members of his own family. In one of the most striking moments at trial, the defense put Thomas' mother and maternal grandfather on the witness stand.


    A tearful Cathy Thomas told the jury she had taken out a restraining order against her son three years ago after he choked her for several minutes during an argument. The grandfather testified that Thomas had suddenly attacked him with a fireplace poker in 1995. Thomas pleaded guilty to the attack and served nine months in jail.
    I'm sure the feds will now go after the same cops for the same crime - because it's politically correct.

    Here's what I wonder when I see a case like this one:

    Dozens of Thomas supporters, who called themselves "Kelly's Army," packed the courtroom each day of the five-week trial wearing yellow ribbons and buttons bearing his image.
    How many of those "supporters" would have stopped to give Thomas the time of day if they saw him on the street? How many of them would have offered him work or a home or food - and how many would have avoided contact with a disheveled homeless man who was obviously mentally ill?

    It's the same problem we've seen in mass murders in recent years - a total failure to have a comprehensive mental health program in this country.

    I don't think you can blame "US cops" for a shooting by a 71 yr old retired cop.
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  • Profile picture of the author LarryC
    << Could it be there is more to these stories - outside the view of a quick video? A helpless, homeless man? - whose mother had to take out a restraining order to protect herself from him? She wanted cops to protect her from her son - but then says there was no reason for the violence against him. >>

    There is always more to a story, but that still doesn't justify the excessive force used here. At the very least, it shows these cops are incompetent. At worst, it suggests a level of sadistic pleasure in beating someone who is clearly no longer a threat.

    I don't care if this guy is Jack the Ripper. Cops in a supposedly free country are not supposed to act like this. They are supposed to be there to protect people and to restrain someone who is violent. Once someone is no longer a threat, their job is to take them into custody, not to beat them to death.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      I'm not defending their actions - but I don't think any of us is in a position to pass judgement - because we DON'T have all the facts.

      This was a jury that made this decision - they heard the evidence - saw the tapes - listened to the witnesses. They decided based on facts presented - not on emotion or anger or public pressure.

      It's easy to watch a couple minutes of video - and read the blog opinion of "brutality" and form an opinion. If you sat in the courtroom every day and heard all of the evidence - you might have a different opinion.
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  • Profile picture of the author rwbovee
    Yes, there is definitely a problem here. I guess a lot of new police are ex war veterans, so they may have some mental problems. I also think they're being trained lately to treat everyone like a potential terrorist and aren't trained to remember our Constitutional rights.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kerem
    You should see Turkish cops: Police Brutality Across Turkey - YouTube
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Whether he had a restraining order previously from his family, whether or not he used drugs at some point in his life ... none of that is relevant to anything.

    Police are not judges, juries and executioners. They are supposed to be professional law enforcement officials, well trained. Six of these thugs on one man couldn't restrain him without killing him?

    There are enough of these cases in the news that raise grave concerns about the use of excessive force by police officers and the apparent lack of consequences for the same.

    The recording begins with Ramos, responding to a report of someone rattling car doors, approaching a disheveled, shirtless Thomas outside a downtown Fullerton bus depot.

    Ramos orders Thomas to sit on the curb with his feet out and hands on his knees. A frustrated, and at times sarcastic, Thomas appears to have a difficult time following his commands.

    About 15 minutes into the video, Ramos puts on latex gloves and puts his fists in front of Thomas’ face. “Now you see my fists?... They’re getting ready to f— you up.”

    “Start punching, dude,” Thomas said.

    Moments later, a relatively calm situation quickly escalates. Ramos grabs his arm; Thomas pushes it and starts to move away from Ramos, who takes out his baton. As Thomas is walking away, another officer is seen swinging his baton at the homeless man’s legs. . . .

    Soon Thomas is on the ground fighting with six officers.

    “I can’t breathe,” Thomas said. “Dad, help me! Dad, help me!”

    Cicinelli struck Thomas on the face with his Taser at least twice. Defense attorneys said he did it as a last resort when the device failed to work properly and only after Thomas attempted to take it away from him. Los Angeles Times

    Thomas died in a hospital five days later.
    If you are a parent and have a mentally handicapped family member, the last person you will want in your house is a cop to help out. It may be a death sentence for that family member.

    Then there's the 100 lb kid with a screwdriver who was mentally handicapped and shot and killed by a cop recently.

    But the situation appeared to be under control, with two officers restraining the 90-pound Vidal, when the third officer arrived and shot Vidal point-blank, Wilsey contended. Family demanding answers after police fatally shoot mentally ill NC teenager - U.S. News
    List of cases of police brutality in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    I wouldn't be surprised if the number of incidents have gone way up and they don't shoot people in the leg etc.


    They shoot to kill.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Suzanne - I don't disagree. I don't know if police violence is higher or if we simply document it more today. It's sad so many of the incidents of police brutality are involved with mentally ill people - and I wonder why we don't do more for the mentally ill to begin with.

      I don't approve in any way of excessive violence and I think we're right to be concerned about it. I don't think we are right to be passing judgment or labeling people as "sadists" in particular cases where we don't agree with a jury's decision. That's my point - we don't know the full story on this one case. A jury did hear all the evidence and that's how our justice system works.

      My big objection is to the people who become totally devoted to a "victim" they didn't know, didn't try to help and probably would have avoided had they met him on the sidewalk.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    The actual state of the police force is this.

    In the last decade our police (US) have killed more unarmed citizens than the number of US soldiers that died in the Iraq war. Can't remember exact numbers but Iraq was somewhere between 4,500 and 4,900 while unarmed citizens killed by cops is 5,100 - 5,300.

    You are 8 times more likely to be killed by a US cop than by a terrorist.

    Too much? You decide and keep watch of what goes on in your local area. If the cops are murdering people and their pets, etc - gather up the community and pay a visit to your cop shop and make sure people are fired.

    Tyranny used to be their fault. It's ours now.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      The actual state of the police force is this.

      In the last decade our police (US) have killed more unarmed citizens than the number of US soldiers that died in the Iraq war. Can't remember exact numbers but Iraq was somewhere between 4,500 and 4,900 while unarmed citizens killed by cops is 5,100 - 5,300.

      You are 8 times more likely to be killed by a US cop than by a terrorist.

      You’re More Likely to Die from Brain-Eating Parasites, Alcoholism, Obesity, Medical Errors, Risky Sexual Behavior or Just About Anything OTHER THAN Terrorism

      Posted on April 28, 2013 by WashingtonsBlog

      We noted in 2011:

      – You are 17,600 times more likely to die from heart disease than from a terrorist attack

      – You are 12,571 times more likely to die from cancer than from a terrorist attack

      — You are 11,000 times more likely to die in an airplane accident than from a terrorist plot involving an airplane

      — You are 1048 times more likely to die from a car accident than from a terrorist attack

      –You are 404 times more likely to die in a fall than from a terrorist attack

      — You are 87 times more likely to drown than die in a terrorist attack

      – You are 13 times more likely to die in a railway accident than from a terrorist attack

      –You are 12 times more likely to die from accidental suffocation in bed than from a terrorist attack

      –You are 9 times more likely to choke to death on your own vomit than die in a terrorist attack

      –You are 8 times more likely to be killed by a police officer than by a terrorist

      –You are 8 times more likely to die from accidental electrocution than from a terrorist attack

      – You are 6 times more likely to die from hot weather than from a terrorist attack

      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Too much? You decide and keep watch of what goes on in your local area. If the cops are murdering people and their pets, etc - gather up the community and pay a visit to your cop shop and make sure people are fired.

      Tyranny used to be their fault. It's ours now.
      While your statistics are correct or close for a 10-year period, blaming the people who do not hire these cops and saying that tyranny is OUR fault, is incorrect. Whenever there are cases of police brutality, the news is full of the stories and the justified or unjustified outrage. Short of taking matters into our own hands and just going around shooting cops that we think are bad, the public and media does what it needs to do to bring these cases to the top. Once they are in the news, there's a great deal of pressure on them to prosecute the cases that deserve prosecution. I hope the feds get in on the case and try those cops who just beat the rap for excessive brutality that resulted in death of the homeless man as well as the mentally handicapped teen one just killed recently.

      Here's the numbers by year of police killings for any reason, justified and unjustified, whether in the line of duty or not, and regardless of reason or method, so your total includes both. Not all police killings are unjustified, (EDIT: and as Kay posted, the numbers are not all unarmed people - it includes both armed and unarmed).

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._United_States
      2013 - 304
      2012 - 587

      Didn't give totals, but listed cases. These are not huge lists, but I'm not going to count the cases
      2011 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ed_States_2011
      2010 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ed_States_2010
      2009 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ed_States_2009
      Prior to 2009 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._prior_to_2009

      In addition, due to a very high crime rate prior to the 1990s, police forces were increased, and that may be a factor in the declining crime rate since then. Considering the number of police officers on and off duty in this country, I don't think there's evidence to support a conclusion that the US being in danger of becoming a police state.

      Every case of police brutality should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, as should every case of all brutal crimes.

      The survey said 14,827 people were murdered last year in the United States, well down from 24,526 in 1993, when the country’s population was smaller.

      But the 2012 murder rate — 4.7 murders per 100,000 people — was significantly higher than in most other wealthy nations.

      The comparable rate is 0.4 in Japan, 0.8 in Germany, 1.0 in Australia 1.1 in France and 1.2 in Britain, according to figures compiled by the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        Sal - Your numbers are wrong. You are smarter than that - so is it for shock value?

        Since 9/11, about 5,000 Americans have been killed by U.S. police officers, which is almost equivalent to the number of U.S. soldiers who have been killed in the line of duty in Iraq.
        That is not "5000 unarmed" Americans killed.

        Of course you have some cops who are more macho than courageous - but they are taught to protect themselves. When you have 12 and 13 yr old shooters in the news - you have to expect the worst. I think we also have a larger number of citizens who have no respect for authority and tend to argue rather than respond when challenged by police.

        • A total of 1,539 law enforcement officers died in the line of duty during the past 10 years, an average of one death every 57 hours or 154 per year. There were 120 law enforcement officers killed in 2012.
        • On average, over the last decade, there have been 58,261 assaults against law enforcement each year, resulting in 15,658 injuries.
        The number of solders in Iraq peaked at about 160,000 - and deaths were just over 4400. I don't think it makes sense to compare that with 5000 total deaths "by cop" in a population of over 300,000,000 during the same period of time. The ratios are not comparable.
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        • Profile picture of the author Horny Devil
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          There are good police and there are bad police, in every country. But whilst the numbers of police officers brought to justice for quite blatant brutality offences is nominal, to say the least, then the numbers of bad police will increase. If you know there's a more than fair chance you'll get away with something, then there's a more than fair chance you'll do it. I speak from experience - I've been a victim myself.
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          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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            Originally Posted by Horny Devil View Post

            There are good police and there are bad police, in every country. But whilst the numbers of police officers brought to justice for quite blatant brutality offences is nominal, to say the least, then the numbers of bad police will increase. If you know there's a more than fair chance you'll get away with something, then there's a more than fair chance you'll do it. I speak from experience - I've been a victim myself.
            I agree. I think police should have the same expectation of investigation and prosecution that anyone who takes a life has.
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          • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            ...out of how many incidents per day across the country involving police action???
            Perspective like this is good. But I know so many police outside
            of their work environment that it is difficult for me to trust them
            for a damn thing, after the stories they tell about how they "handle"
            a lot of things.


            Originally Posted by Horny Devil View Post

            There are good police and there are bad police, in every country. But whilst the numbers of police officers brought to justice for quite blatant brutality offences is nominal, to say the least, then the numbers of bad police will increase. If you know there's a more than fair chance you'll get away with something, then there's a more than fair chance you'll do it. I speak from experience - I've been a victim myself.
            More than anything or anyone else, I blame the human resources style
            nannies that decide who gets hired and who doesn't. Time and time again
            I've seen young men who should be locked up themselves given a badge
            and a gun, while professional, mature young people with a solid background
            and work history are turned away.

            ...Then again, it may be the budget cuts that are to blame for that, I'm not sure?
            But it's been going on for near 20 years since I started paying attention,
            so I hesitate to blame it on that factor alone.
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              I blame the human resources style
              nannies that decide who gets hired and who doesn't.
              Definitely agree but I also think our society has a role in this problem. We are raising people to believe "me" is the only important thing. Lack of respect for authority is common in schools, in homes and among those interacting with police.
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              • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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                Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                Definitely agree but I also think our society has a role in this problem. We are raising people to believe "me" is the only important thing. Lack of respect for authority is common in schools, in homes and among those interacting with police.
                Well, I'm old enough to remember when I was a kid, firemen, preachers, teachers and police were golden. They were respected and thought of as "heros". A lot has changed since then. Sex abuse amongst teachers and preachers, police brutality and injustice. No one ever thought back then that calling the police to help you with a mentally disturbed family member would end up in that family members' death, but that has happened several times recently and it is appalling.

                I was raised to respect authority figures and some I do and some I don't. I don't disrespect police as a whole, but I'm well aware that there enough officers with mental problems of their own that I would NEVER call them to help out in a situation involving family members. We used to think of police as people who could and would help us and protect us. That isn't always the case any longer and you don't know which ones will or which ones are dangerous.
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        • Profile picture of the author HeySal
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          Sal - Your numbers are wrong. You are smarter than that - so is it for shock value?



          That is not "5000 unarmed" Americans killed.

          Of course you have some cops who are more macho than courageous - but they are taught to protect themselves. When you have 12 and 13 yr old shooters in the news - you have to expect the worst. I think we also have a larger number of citizens who have no respect for authority and tend to argue rather than respond when challenged by police.



          The number of solders in Iraq peaked at about 160,000 - and deaths were just over 4400. I don't think it makes sense to compare that with 5000 total deaths "by cop" in a population of over 300,000,000 during the same period of time. The ratios are not comparable.
          I don't think they were meant to be comparative in the true sense of the word. I think they were meant to give people a mental picture of the numbers.

          Suzanne - that pic is an example of what police forces are being suited up with, it's not just ONE vehicle. They are being given to/bought by (? not clear on that one), towns all over the US. I just was able to find a pic of the one Dallas just got. And - if the violence was bad enough to call in the National Guard........well.....um.......that's kinda what they are for. Police units are not. There's a reason for the separation of powers - and I believe in sticking to it, and I also believe what I said - that when violence gets that bad, we have a social problem to deal with. We either solve the social problem or resort to suppression. The choice is ours. If we make the wrong one - we'll pay for it. Choose carefully - and if you choose a militarized police force, and you get suppression, do not be surprised. It has played out that way in at least 5 other societies now.

          Some people agree with me, some don't. Don't know much what to say about that other than, good luck to us all right?
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      • Profile picture of the author HeySal
        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        You’re More Likely to Die from Brain-Eating Parasites, Alcoholism, Obesity, Medical Errors, Risky Sexual Behavior or Just About Anything OTHER THAN Terrorism

        Posted on April 28, 2013 by WashingtonsBlog

        We noted in 2011:

        – You are 17,600 times more likely to die from heart disease than from a terrorist attack

        – You are 12,571 times more likely to die from cancer than from a terrorist attack

        — You are 11,000 times more likely to die in an airplane accident than from a terrorist plot involving an airplane

        — You are 1048 times more likely to die from a car accident than from a terrorist attack

        –You are 404 times more likely to die in a fall than from a terrorist attack

        — You are 87 times more likely to drown than die in a terrorist attack

        – You are 13 times more likely to die in a railway accident than from a terrorist attack

        –You are 12 times more likely to die from accidental suffocation in bed than from a terrorist attack

        –You are 9 times more likely to choke to death on your own vomit than die in a terrorist attack

        –You are 8 times more likely to be killed by a police officer than by a terrorist

        –You are 8 times more likely to die from accidental electrocution than from a terrorist attack

        – You are 6 times more likely to die from hot weather than from a terrorist attack



        While your statistics are correct or close for a 10-year period, blaming the people who do not hire these cops and saying that tyranny is OUR fault, is incorrect. Whenever there are cases of police brutality, the news is full of the stories and the justified or unjustified outrage. Short of taking matters into our own hands and just going around shooting cops that we think are bad, the public and media does what it needs to do to bring these cases to the top. Once they are in the news, there's a great deal of pressure on them to prosecute the cases that deserve prosecution. I hope the feds get in on the case and try those cops who just beat the rap for excessive brutality that resulted in death of the homeless man as well as the mentally handicapped teen one just killed recently.

        Here's the numbers by year of police killings for any reason, justified and unjustified, whether in the line of duty or not, and regardless of reason or method, so your total includes both. Not all police killings are unjustified, (EDIT: and as Kay posted, the numbers are not all unarmed people - it includes both armed and unarmed).

        List of killings by law enforcement officers in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
        2013 - 304
        2012 - 587

        Didn't give totals, but listed cases. These are not huge lists, but I'm not going to count the cases
        2011 - List of killings by law enforcement officers in the United States, 2011 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
        2010 - List of killings by law enforcement officers in the United States, 2010 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
        2009 - List of killings by law enforcement officers in the United States, 2009 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
        Prior to 2009 - List of killings by law enforcement officers in the United States prior to 2009 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

        In addition, due to a very high crime rate prior to the 1990s, police forces were increased, and that may be a factor in the declining crime rate since then. Considering the number of police officers on and off duty in this country, I don't think there's evidence to support a conclusion that the US being in danger of becoming a police state.

        Every case of police brutality should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, as should every case of all brutal crimes.
        Yeah -I just quoted the stats as I remembered them, and only had the total for a decade, not per year.

        I also didn't make judgements - just stated stats.

        Also - the method your community takes control of a tyrant doesn't matter. It matters that if people feel the cop is out of hand, that they do something other than sit and harp about it.

        As far as police state. I don't agree. I think we're building one. SWAT teams are becoming over and wrongly used. Military vehicles should have no place in police weaponry. This thing now belongs to Dallas cops and cop shops around the nation are being equiped with them. They've have them in parts of Nevada since I lived there. We might not be at police state yet - but if we don't put a foot down on it now, we will be.

        We're not any different than any other people anywhere else. We have to stop acting like nothing that happened elsewhere could happen here. When you make police into a militia - they will act like one. There's 100% difference between a small town cop and one trained by Blackwater. I don't ever want to live where the cops are Blackwater trained. Never.

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        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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          Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

          We're not any different than any other people anywhere else. We have to stop acting like nothing that happened elsewhere could happen here. When you make police into a militia - they will act like one. There's 100% difference between a small town cop and one trained by Blackwater. I don't ever want to live where the cops are Blackwater trained. Never.
          Oh, I see. It's ok for ordinary Joe Blow with no training to join and organize militias ... but not cops. They shouldn't be at least as armed and protected as the citizens they protect. Interesting.

          Having a vehicle like that could go a long way to help out in domestic terrorism and other situations, but I did figure that you were hinting at the US becoming a police state with some very flimsy "facts" to back it up.
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          • Profile picture of the author HeySal
            Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

            Oh, I see. It's ok for ordinary Joe Blow with no training to join and organize militias ... but not cops. They shouldn't be at least as armed and protected as the citizens they protect. Interesting.

            Having a vehicle like that could go a long way to help out in domestic terrorism and other situations, but I did figure that you were hinting at the US becoming a police state with some very flimsy "facts" to back it up.
            You don't want cops more "protected" than the citizens. Historically that leads to tyranny. If we have a domestic terrorism problem, then we need to worry more about fixing our social problems and less about our ability to mass murder civilians. You ever sat down and talked to a Blackwater cop? Do so sometime - or watch one in action. You might just change your mind......real fast. There were laws about our police and military being separate entities for a reason.
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            • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              That is sad when it happens. Used to be if a family had to call police, the mentally unstable person was removed to a mental health facility. We've closed most of the facilities - we no longer think it's right to put people in mental institutions.

              I've wondered if it results in a cop heading for a domestic disturbance and learning that location/person has been a problem in the past several times. That could raise the level of caution for the cop and may increase the chance of a bad outcome.

              One victim's mother is blaming police for her son's death and she may be right. Her argument is "the cop should have been able to control him"....but there were several adult family members there and THEY couldn't control the person. The only difference was the cop had a gun.
              The thing is ... cops have stun guns. That disables people pretty neatly and doesn't usually cause death when used correctly. There's also tear gas they could use. Cops have been able to divert the attention of dangerous criminals with flash bangs and shoot them before they were able to shoot. All of these things would be effective against a 100 lb kid with a screwdriver.

              After reading these cases, I would handle it myself. I just couldn't risk having someone who was trigger happy showing up.

              Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

              You don't want cops more "protected" than the citizens.
              Correction. YOU don't want cops more protected than citizens. I DO want cops more or at least as protected as citizens. The vast majority of cops do their jobs to protect citizens. A small fraction are bad cops. I want cops that are armed and ready for riots, domestic terrorism, and anything else that endangers citizens to be able to do their jobs with as little loss of their lives as possible.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          No one ever thought back then that calling the police to help you with a mentally disturbed family member would end up in that family members' death, but that has happened several times recently and it is appalling.
          That is sad when it happens. Used to be if a family had to call police, the mentally unstable person was removed to a mental health facility. We've closed most of the facilities - we no longer think it's right to put people in mental institutions.

          I've wondered if it results in a cop heading for a domestic disturbance and learning that location/person has been a problem in the past several times. That could raise the level of caution for the cop and may increase the chance of a bad outcome.

          One victim's mother is blaming police for her son's death and she may be right. Her argument is "the cop should have been able to control him"....but there were several adult family members there and THEY couldn't control the person. The only difference was the cop had a gun.
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          • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            The only difference was the cop had a gun.
            Sadly, "production for use" becomes a reality when the officers
            are selected from the least professional among us, and the training
            is so poor and infrequent.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Yeah your right. I don't want police with military control. I've studied the rise of every fascist regime in the last century. They all have in common - military control.

    If riots are so bad you need military........that's when you call in the National Guard. If you give the police power of suppression. That is exactly what you are going to get. Be very careful what you wish for.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Yeah your right. I don't want police with military control. I've studied the rise of every fascist regime in the last century. They all have in common - military control.

      If riots are so bad you need military........that's when you call in the National Guard. If you give the police power of suppression. That is exactly what you are going to get. Be very careful what you wish for.
      You're the only one implying that cops who are able to protect citizens and themselves have "military control" and your proof of that is that some own a big military style vehicle.

      I lived in Baltimore during the riot of '68, so yeah, I'd prefer that cops can suppress that kind of violence. We had whole neighborhoods that boarded up their windows and hid in their homes, hoping they wouldn't get burned down. When it comes down to that kind of violence, cops are practically useless against it without the assistance of the federal government and national guard.

      The Baltimore Riot of 1968 was composed of black Baltimoreans lasting from April 6 to April 14. The riot included crowds filling the streets, burning and looting local businesses, and confronting the police and national guard.

      The immediate cause of the rioting was the April 4 assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. in Memphis, Tennessee, which triggered riots in 125 cities across the United States. These events are sometimes described as the Holy Week Uprising.

      Spiro T. Agnew, the Governor of Maryland, called out thousands of National Guard troops and 500 Maryland State Police to quell the disturbance. When it was determined that the state forces could not control the riot, Agnew requested Federal troops from President Lyndon B. Johnson.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    Caan anyone tell me the police's job?
    Isn't it basically To Protect And Serve?
    Do they do either anymore?
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    • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
      He went into a coma and now is dead, not moving or twitching.., I guess that what cops mean by compliance.

      Try to sit perfectly still on the curb like that and see how hard it is..., if you are not limber or flexible and/or have bad circulation, you will not stay in that position for long..., "complying".

      Or like when a cop tells you to put both your hands on the hood of his police car when it is red hot, and you can't keep your hands there; "compliance".

      So if a cop tells me to stand on one leg and put my knee waist high, and I can't do it or hold it for long, I am in violation of complying with the officers command and should be lawfully and legally beat and killed...., shame on me, I'm a baaaaaaaaad citizen, guess I got what I deserved.

      And don't bring up Kelly's "past" when , by law, the access to the cops "past" is not allowed or open for record and examination, you hypocrites.

      Probable cause??? Guys homeless and shirtless.

      So how is this different than a fascist/communist regime?

      Using and justifying Communist tactics in a "claim" to protect The Constitution is by default "not " communism?

      Using the best ideas of Stalin and Hitler with a slight twist and terminology like "Patriot Act" and "citizen combatants as enemies/terrorist" is practicing freedom and the correct interpretation of The Founding Fathers?

      What hypocrisy.

      Those who believe in this hypocrisy will have it knocking at their door very soon, so remember your arguments in support of it, for they believe it could NEVER happen to them or someone they care about.

      NOW, people get to see how the other half lives, on video......, snap out of the Matrix folks.

      And the stuff that is NOT on camera...., oh yeah .

      Right around the corner, there is coming a day in which all lovers of war , killing , violence and bullying is going to get alllll they can handle, in fact, they are going to drown in it, more than they could ever handle, so keep buying those guns and bullets and continue practicing hunting, killing animals for sport and fun........, except the government bought a billion rounds of hollow points for ya...., so cancel that order for the bullet-proof vest.

      Cuts through it like hot butter.


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    • Profile picture of the author Midnight Oil
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      Caan anyone tell me the police's job?
      Isn't it basically To Protect And Serve?
      Do they do either anymore?
      They've protected and served me a number of times over the years. Haven't been beaten, stomped, kicked, shot or tased yet.

      I've employed many cops over the years. I've let a couple of them go during that time because I thought they were a bit too aggressive, but I've known many and most have been damn fine folk.
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      • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
        Originally Posted by Midnight Oil View Post


        They've protected and served me a number of times over the years. Haven't been beaten, stomped, kicked, shot or tased yet.

        I've employed many cops over the years. I've let a couple of them go during that time because I thought they were a bit too aggressive, but I've known many and most have been damn fine folk.

        I'm sure the Roman emperors treated "some" people very good and well as well as his centurions...., those they did'nt throw to the lions..., for sport.

        Hitler treated some people well, especially The Dulles brothers, american lawyers who were only concerned with their corporate clients interests in Germany, hardly concerned or care of the beating of Jews in the street. The Dulles brothers, the pre-Koch brothers of that era, who started the CIA, who started a campaign of assassination of world leaders and destabilization for their corporate "clients" and their interest.

        THAT'S why we have search and seizure laws, you know, that pesky thing called the Bill of Rights and Constitution and all that jazz....,

        "I have nothing to hide...," myopic logic, have you heard that saying stating that they came after my brother, but I stayed silent?

        Guess "brother" he is not, nor is it synonymous with "american", whether you like him or not is immaterial , the principle of rights is the point.

        What if 50 different agencies want to "search" or question you without probable cause?

        What if someone in the agency has a hard on for you because of any number of reasons?

        If you have "nothing to hide", then you don't mind being questioned, without probable cause by 50 different agencies, or being held for 3 or more days, or knocking at your door at all times of the day and night, you know, procedures, nothing "personal", because "you have nothing to hide"?

        It could on an on.

        Hey, every Arab I met in my life has done nothing to me and treated me well, served me a number of times over the years. Haven't been called an american pig, bombed or killed my folks, shot at me or got hit with a rpg or blew up my car. Some where a-holes, but overall, I've known many and most have been damn fine folks.

        So why would I want my tax money to go kill "accused" Arabs of being terrorist and bomb their village?

        Cuts both ways.

        I guess we just find a "Leave it to Beaver" world somewhere in The Matrix or some planet, and let everything else handle itself, nothing to see here folks.

        When the British soldiers were over here, hey, some where cool, they just doing their job, if you got jailed or killed, you must've done something to deserve it, just do what they say, and even if you did, if you died then you done somethingwrong, you had to....., logical.


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    • Profile picture of the author LarryC
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      Caan anyone tell me the police's job?
      Isn't it basically To Protect And Serve?
      Do they do either anymore?
      I think the real question is who do they protect and serve?
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      • Profile picture of the author HeySal
        Originally Posted by LarryC View Post

        I think the real question is who do they protect and serve?
        Out where I am we've got a lot of Oath Keepers.

        I got a ticket in NV for speeding in a place I hadn't even been driving. When I told the cop I'd just turned onto the road at the last intersection, he put his hand on his taser and asked if I we had a problem. I am still furious - but not wanting to be tased at a time of night I didn't have a lot of witnesses and no ability to record it myself. I backed off - but it was complete suppression and I paid almost a hundred bucks for a ticket that was nothing but phony ass cop throwing his weight around. I feel violated as hell.

        Then I came to central OR and, again, got pulled over. I was so scared when he first pulled me......didn't know what would happen to me. Turns out one of my rear lights burned out and he was just letting me know - no ticket, no warning - just "hey, did you know......." We opened the back hatch to see what I had to buy so I could pick it up on the way home (drivers are hella stupid out here and I wanted my light fixed). We talked and laughed. It was kewl, I felt safe. That's one of the reasons I have stayed here instead of moving since there's a lot of good reasons to move. These guys are real, they're kewl. I have a feeling if any one of them went over the line and abused their badge, they wouldn't see a whole police force standing up for them. These guys are community guys, not Blackwater militia.
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      • Profile picture of the author KimW
        Originally Posted by Midnight Oil View Post

        They've protected and served me a number of times over the years. Haven't been beaten, stomped, kicked, shot or tased yet.

        I've employed many cops over the years. I've let a couple of them go during that time because I thought they were a bit too aggressive, but I've known many and most have been damn fine folk.
        You missed the point of the post.


        Originally Posted by LarryC View Post

        I think the real question is who do they protect and serve?
        You did not miss the point.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          To "protect and serve" is a motto from Los Angeles during the 1950s that spread from there. In some areas, cops were known as "peace officers" because their job was to "maintain the peace". Those names and descriptions were before the use of "pigs", etc to describe police.

          There are many jobs where making a mistake means you dropped paint on the floor, a deal didn't get done financially, you disappointed a customer or a supervisor....

          There are other jobs (medicine, firefighter, military, police) where if you make a mistake or misjudgment - someone else may bleed or die....or you may bleed or die. It's a high stress job.
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        • Profile picture of the author Midnight Oil
          Originally Posted by KimW View Post

          You missed the point of the post.
          No, I got it. You just don't like my response.
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          • Profile picture of the author KimW
            Originally Posted by Midnight Oil View Post

            No, I got it. You just don't like my response.

            Naw, I still say you missed it. My question was what do they do now.

            The whole point is that this is not the world it was.

            Yes, like Kay said it is a high stress job. There is no doubt. But it always has been a high stress job.

            There have always been some good cops and some bad cops.
            in my opinion, there were more good than bad in the past.I think it is different now.

            So yes, you may have had lots of good experiences in the past but we are talking this day and age.

            Unlike you I have been beaten by cops back in the 70s. My crime? Having long hair.:rolleyes:

            You haven't been tased? Just google police tased and see what you come up with. men woman and children have been tased when a well trained police officer could have easily taken the situation without using the taser.

            Humans of all ages are being gunned down because police "think" they might have seen a weapon. Again, in my opinion, any officer that shoots a citizen of any age because they "think" there might be a weapon needs to be immediately fired and prosecuted.

            I have relatives that have been law enforcement. In discussions over time they and I are basically on the same page.

            And while Kay seems to think my protect and serve comment wasn't accurate, I felt it got the concept I was going for across.

            Keeping the peace does not mean killing innocent people.

            In my opinion, police officers know the risks when they take the job. It is not an easy job. It comes with great responsibility,but many seem to forget that and think it comes with poer it does not come with.

            In my opinion, and that is the last time in this post I ise that term, I feel it is a police officer's duty to place him or herself in harms way before taking another humans life.

            So your response was fine, I still don't think you got the meaning right.

            <quietly steps off his soapbox>

            PS: I still love you all.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Guess a lot of people didn't learn much from that Witch hunt in LA a year or two back. A guy they THOUGHT - not sentenced in court, but THOUGHT to have killed some people was hunted down and burned to death without trial. The whole thing could have been a set up. We'll never know because he was killed WITHOUT trial. Police marched through the streets forcing people to allow them to search their homes. They killed innocent people and shot up a few cars. But that guy they were looking for was most likely guilty - most likely. They were almost certain.......

    And the media had people so stirred up that they cheered at every American right of whole towns of people being violated.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Dorner was a coward in his four months as a cop - there were no "innocents killed" in the search for him....except the four people HE killed. The one woman who was shot in the leg by police in error....got 1.4 million for her pain and suffering...and a new truck.

      I think there have always been bad cops - it's a job where the power and potential for force can easily go to someone's head. It's a job that may attract people who want to be seen as brave or important or want to be in on the action.

      I think keeping the peace has become harder. There is less respect for the law - people hopped on drugs - many more mentally ill people in the population - gangs and kids who think taunting cops is tough guy stuff.

      It's not an easy job - you have to make decisions on the fly and live with the consequences.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        I feel it is a police officer's duty to place him or herself in harms way before taking another humans life.
        Within reason. If someone has a replica gun - or reaches for his pocket instead of displaying his hands when told to - any cop who waits to see if a pretend gun is real will be a dead cop before long.
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        • Profile picture of the author KimW
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          Within reason. If someone has a replica gun - or reaches for his pocket instead of displaying his hands when told to - any cop who waits to see if a pretend gun is real will be a dead cop before long.
          Of course I disagree. A teenager was killed I believe in New Mexico recently. Two cops shot and killed him. Unless the teenager was a certified marksman, they surely could have managed to control the situation without killing a boy with a BB gun.

          One example among way too many these days.

          Tasers? An old man in a wheelchair yelled and waved a spoon. He was off his meds or something,don't remember the exact details. HE WAS IN A WHEELCHAIR for goodness sakes.
          Cops tased him,he died.
          Tasers should NOT be used on human beings for ANY reason.
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          • Profile picture of the author Midnight Oil
            Originally Posted by KimW View Post

            Naw, I still say you missed it. My question was what do they do now.
            Originally Posted by KimW View Post

            So yes, you may have had lots of good experiences in the past but we are talking this day and age.
            My experiences employing officers was as recent as two years ago. About a year ago one I didn't even know went above and beyond to help protect a member of my family.

            Originally Posted by KimW View Post

            But it always has been a high stress job.
            I disagree. We're far from the days when the town drunk was the biggest problem a cop might have to face in their entire career.

            Originally Posted by KimW View Post

            Unlike you I have been beaten by cops back in the 70s. My crime? Having long hair.
            I'm sure that was horrible for you, and not making light of it at all, but in the 70s I was beaten by longhairs, among others (never pays to go to the same school your dad teaches at). And I was a longhair. Still am. On the other hand, I've had cops protect me, a longhair, from being attacked and beaten more than a few times in the line of work I was in.

            Originally Posted by KimW View Post

            You haven't been tased? Just google police tased
            Don't have to. I've seen it live. As for the rest, you can also find instances of well trained officers tasing people to protect themselves or others. You can find pretty much anything you're looking for if you look long enough.

            Originally Posted by KimW View Post

            Humans of all ages are being gunned down because police "think" they might have seen a weapon. Again, in my opinion, any officer that shoots a citizen of any age because they "think" there might be a weapon needs to be immediately fired and prosecuted.
            What about the ones who were right and the "citizen" actually did have a weapon aimed at him or others?

            What about the situation in Denver a couple of days ago when the guy was holding a woman hostage at a convenience store and the cops took him down?

            Originally Posted by KimW View Post

            I have relatives that have been law enforcement.
            As have I. I've experienced sitting up late at night with my mom waiting and worrying as my stepdad was under fire from some loon who just started shooting at people because they had the audacity to walk or drive past his house. Yeah, lots of things like that.

            Originally Posted by KimW View Post

            Keeping the peace does not mean killing innocent people.
            But it does sometimes mean killing, though.

            Originally Posted by KimW View Post

            In my opinion, police officers know the risks when they take the job.
            Simply "knowing" the risks when you take the job doesn't mean much when a gun is pointed at you or you're shot at for the first time.

            Originally Posted by KimW View Post

            I feel it is a police officer's duty to place him or herself in harms way before taking another humans life.
            Not always. That line of thinking gets more than just the cop killed.

            Originally Posted by KimW View Post

            So your response was fine, I still don't think you got the meaning right.
            Still got it. I answered all three of your questions in the first sentence. Just because I related my personal experience doesn't mean I don't get it.

            Originally Posted by KimW View Post

            The whole point is that this is not the world it was.
            I agree completely.

            But the thing is, in discussions like this, too many folks jump directly to a "cops bad" position (not saying that's what you did, just in general). As with many things in our society, that doesn't do justice to the real problem.

            It isn't "the cops" that are bad. It isn't the teachers, priests, blacks, whites, longhairs, skinheads, conservatives, liberals, republicans, democrats, atheists, religious or whatever label one wishes to apply.

            Evil exists. And it knows no boundaries.
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            • Profile picture of the author KimW
              Originally Posted by Midnight Oil View Post

              My experiences employing officers was as recent as two years ago. About a year ago one I didn't even know went above and beyond to help protect a member of my family.

              I disagree. We're far from the days when the town drunk was the biggest problem a cop might have to face in their entire career.

              I'm sure that was horrible for you, and not making light of it at all, but in the 70s I was beaten by longhairs, among others (never pays to go to the same school your dad teaches at). And I was a longhair. Still am. On the other hand, I've had cops protect me, a longhair, from being attacked and beaten more than a few times in the line of work I was in.

              Don't have to. I've seen it live. As for the rest, you can also find instances of well trained officers tasing people to protect themselves or others. You can find pretty much anything you're looking for if you look long enough.

              What about the ones who were right and the "citizen" actually did have a weapon aimed at him or others?

              What about the situation in Denver a couple of days ago when the guy was holding a woman hostage at a convenience store and the cops took him down?


              As have I. I've experienced sitting up late at night with my mom waiting and worrying as my stepdad was under fire from some loon who just started shooting at people because they had the audacity to walk or drive past his house. Yeah, lots of things like that.

              But it does sometimes mean killing, though.

              Simply "knowing" the risks when you take the job doesn't mean much when a gun is pointed at you or you're shot at for the first time.

              Not always. That line of thinking gets more than just the cop killed.

              Still got it. I answered all three of your questions in the first sentence. Just because I related my personal experience doesn't mean I don't get it.

              I agree completely.

              But the thing is, in discussions like this, too many folks jump directly to a "cops bad" position (not saying that's what you did, just in general). As with many things in our society, that doesn't do justice to the real problem.

              It isn't "the cops" that are bad. It isn't the teachers, priests, blacks, whites, longhairs, skinheads, conservatives, liberals, republicans, democrats, atheists, religious or whatever label one wishes to apply.

              Evil exists. And it knows no boundaries.

              Like I said, I still love you.
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              • Profile picture of the author Midnight Oil
                Originally Posted by KimW View Post

                Like I said, I still love you.
                I appreciate that, accept it and extend my love in kind.

                Very refreshing to see in an online discussion, Kim.
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                • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                  Kim -

                  Each incident is different. The one I was thinking of was this one

                  California cops shoot dead 13-year-old boy armed with toy gun - NY Daily News

                  A picture of the "fake gun" is shown on that site - is it any wonder he was shot when he didn't drop the gun when cops demanded it?

                  If you saw someone carrying that replica gun on walking on a sidewalk - going into a school or a mall....would you wait to see if it was real or not?
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                • Profile picture of the author KimW
                  Originally Posted by Midnight Oil View Post

                  I appreciate that, accept it and extend my love in kind.

                  Very refreshing to see in an online discussion, Kim.
                  I think the best discussions are when we can completely disagree and then go out and have a drink and tell jokes afterwards.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    Sorry Kay, again I have to disagree. The incident is the same one I was talking about.
    Neither of us know all the facts but I believe with all my heart that child died needlessly.

    Go to this site and tell me those don't look realistic. Daisy

    When I was growing up every boy I knew had one of these,and often more than one.

    I never had to fear walking down the streets that I could get killed because I had that.

    It is not the gun looking realistic that is the problem. Our society is the problem. Whatever term you want to use for a policeman's job,the bottom line is that it is NOT to kill innocent people. It is not to put high voltage through senior citizens,causing them to die.

    Even if the gun was real, they should have shot to wound,not kill. What if the child was deaf? As I said we do not know all the factors,but there may have been legitimate reason the kid took no action.

    I sincerely fear for what this country has become, and fear for the world my grandchildren are going to grow up in.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    This is in todays Yahoo news.
    Arrested after giving homeless man 75 cents
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    By the way.
    The other day I was driving down the road near my house when I saw the lights flashing behind me.
    I was sitting at a stop light when I saw them so I went through the light and pulled off where I wouldn't obstruct other traffic. ( I hate traffic stops where they disrupt every vehicle on the road).

    The cop asked me if I know why he pulled me over like all police do,trying to get you to admit guilt.

    I said no.
    He said I was doing 50 in a 40 zone.

    I told him I usually am very careful with my speed but that he was probably right today.

    He asked wehre I was going.
    I said a Drs appointment.

    He went back to his patrol car and I assume ran a check.

    A few minutes later he came back, handed me my registration and license and told me to slow down,be more careful and have a nice day.

    I swear that is the first time in 15-20 years I have seen an officer do that.

    As we all have said,there are good and bad in every area of life. It was nice to see good.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      I've had that happen twice in two years so maybe that's why I don't buy into the "cops as bad guys always" scenario. I also had one stop to see if I was OK when I was pulled over at the side of the road.

      Even if the gun was real, they should have shot to wound,not kill.
      If you are going to shoot a gun at someone - you shoot at the largest part of the body. If you aren't willing to do that - shouldn't be carrying a gun.

      I was surprised to find this (not affiliate link)
      Amazon.com - Denix Russian AK-47 Assault Rifle...Amazon.com - Denix Russian AK-47 Assault Rifle...
      That same replica is featured on several websites an the text isn't about "realistic replica" but about the awesome killing power of AK47s.

      Here's a bb gun - note the red plastic at the tip?
      Amazon.com: Velocity Airsoft AUG A2 Spring Airsoft Gun Full Scale Assault Rifle Bullpup FPS-300 Integrated Vertical Foregrip, Comes w/ BB Speed Loader: Sports & Outdoors

      Why would any parent allow a young teen to purchase and carry one of those real-looking fake guns around??? What parent doesn't teach a kid these days that when a cop tells you to do something, you respect that authority?

      This was a tragic killing that should not have happened - I agree with that. But I think there are lessons to learn that could save other kids. Maybe a parent doesn't allow a kid to have real-looking "pretend guns" - or teaches their kid "even if you know you are doing nothing wrong....do what the cop tells you to do".

      For years we had the public services ads...."do you know where your children are"? Today do we know what guns our kids are carrying?
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        I was surprised to find this (not affiliate link)
        Amazon.com - Denix Russian AK-47 Assault Rifle (Non-Firing Replica) - Airsoft Rifles

        That same replica is featured on several websites an the text isn't about "realistic replica" but about the awesome killing power of AK47s.

        Here's a bb gun - note the red plastic at the tip?
        Amazon.com: Velocity Airsoft AUG A2 Spring Airsoft Gun Full Scale Assault Rifle Bullpup FPS-300 Integrated Vertical Foregrip, Comes w/ BB Speed Loader: Sports & Outdoors

        Why would any parent allow a young teen to purchase and carry one of those real-looking fake guns around??? What parent doesn't teach a kid these days that when a cop tells you to do something, you respect that authority?

        This was a tragic killing that should not have happened - I agree with that. But I think there are lessons to learn that could save other kids. Maybe a parent doesn't allow a kid to have real-looking "pretend guns" - or teaches their kid "even if you know you are doing nothing wrong....do what the cop tells you to do".

        For years we had the public services ads...."do you know where your children are"? Today do we know what guns our kids are carrying?
        There isn't anything unusual about kids wanting and having play guns. My brother and I both had our share of play guns and even play hand grenades . But when I was a kid, we didn't have teenagers committing mass murder in schools and other places. In this day and age when teens have gone to schools with guns and explosives and killed students and teachers, it's a dangerous gift to give your kid and allow them to walk around just anywhere with it, especially if it is real looking. Cops often only have seconds to determine whether or not someone is armed and dangerous. What is surprising is that the kid would ignore the cops demand to put the weapon down... it is not surprising that it ended in tragedy.

        We have citizens who are armed to the teeth and they have a constitutional right to do that. Cops have the same constitutional right to defend themselves as ordinary armed citizens do, and yet there are those suggesting that they should be less armed than citizens. They risk their lives daily to protect citizens from criminals and are the first responders to riots, domestic terrorism, shooters on a rampage trying to kill as many people as they can, people with explosives and more.

        It's a given there are some good cops and some bad cops. There are some good doctors and some bad doctors and every other profession is the same. Get a bad doctor and people can die too. There are also good citizens and bad citizens. If that weren't the case, cops would have nothing to do but play solitaire on the computer.

        People are bitching about the MRAPs that the Defense Department is giving to law enforcement agencies under a national military surplus program. These vehicles protect officers from shooters and explosions and can also protect citizens from the same. They can and are used in emergency response and rescue operations.

        These people claim it's the militarization of police forces, but go on to defend the militarization of ordinary Joe Blow citizens and think that cops should be less armed than the criminals they encounter. Well, that's not the way it works. You can expect them to exercise the same right to defend themselves that everyone else has and meet fire with fire, and you can expect there will always be good cops and bad cops as well as good and bad of everything else.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          I remember how stupid I thought people were when the "no play guns for kids" became popular quite a while back. I played cowgirl as a kid and my sons loved their pretend guns. But those guns looked like pretend guns. My sons bb guns looked like bb guns - and they weren't allowed to walk around carrying them except on our private property.

          It struck me we don't know what we believe in any more. How can we have a kid kicked out of school because his poptart looks like a "gun" or because he cut a piece of paper to look "like a gun"....and then defend the right of teens to own/carry a replica gun that looks identical to a real assault rifle?

          If we don't sell toy guns any more - why are we allowing the sale of replica guns to to non-adults ...or at all for that matter?
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          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            I remember how stupid I thought people were when the "no play guns for kids" became popular quite a while back. I played cowgirl as a kid and my sons loved their pretend guns. But those guns looked like pretend guns. My sons bb guns looked like bb guns - and they weren't allowed to walk around carrying them except on our private property.

            It struck me we don't know what we believe in any more. How can we have a kid kicked out of school because his poptart looks like a "gun" or because he cut a piece of paper to look "like a gun"....and then defend the right of teens to own/carry a replica gun that looks identical to a real assault rifle?

            If we don't sell toy guns any more - why are we allowing the sale of replica guns to to non-adults ...or at all for that matter?
            Even back when we were kids playing with toy weapons (which were all very cheesy looking), my brother was not allowed to carry that BB Gun off our property. Period. Raising kids from scratch these days, I would not want my kids to have guns that looked real ... for their own safety. Parents should also be teaching kids that whether they think there's a good reason or not, whether they're doing something wrong or not, when a cop says do something, do it now. Plenty of time to sort things out when there's no longer any danger.
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        • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          There isn't anything unusual about kids wanting and having play guns. My brother and I both had our share of play guns and even play hand grenades . But when I was a kid, we didn't have teenagers committing mass murder in schools and other places. In this day and age when teens have gone to schools with guns and explosives and killed students and teachers, it's a dangerous gift to give your kid and allow them to walk around just anywhere with it, especially if it is real looking. Cops often only have seconds to determine whether or not someone is armed and dangerous. What is surprising is that the kid would ignore the cops demand to put the weapon down... it is not surprising that it ended in tragedy.
          I could be wrong, but I think maybe "deer in the headlights" syndrome may have had something to do with it. You have several police yelling at the tops of their lungs, each yelling something different - it's not the easiest thing to process.

          We have citizens who are armed to the teeth and they have a constitutional right to do that. Cops have the same constitutional right to defend themselves as ordinary armed citizens do, and yet there are those suggesting that they should be less armed than citizens. They risk their lives daily to protect citizens from criminals and are the first responders to riots, domestic terrorism, shooters on a rampage trying to kill as many people as they can, people with explosives and more.
          If these were everyday occurrences, many of us might feel differently. When was the last full-blown riot in the US? When was the last instance of 'domestic terrorism'? And does responding to a riot require automatic weapons?

          One of the problems is that police are now trained to have the attitude that 'everyone is a threat' and that's the way they react.

          It's a given there are some good cops and some bad cops. There are some good doctors and some bad doctors and every other profession is the same. Get a bad doctor and people can die too. There are also good citizens and bad citizens. If that weren't the case, cops would have nothing to do but play solitaire on the computer.

          People are bitching about the MRAPs that the Defense Department is giving to law enforcement agencies under a national military surplus program. These vehicles protect officers from shooters and explosions and can also protect citizens from the same. They can and are used in emergency response and rescue operations.

          These people claim it's the militarization of police forces, but go on to defend the militarization of ordinary Joe Blow citizens and think that cops should be less armed than the criminals they encounter. Well, that's not the way it works. You can expect them to exercise the same right to defend themselves that everyone else has and meet fire with fire, and you can expect there will always be good cops and bad cops as well as good and bad of everything else.
          The 'militarization of police forces' isn't just about weaponry, but the mindset of police. Fatigues, weapons harnesses, and combat boots? C'mon. You dress a cop up like a soldier, and what do you think he/she starts thinking like?

          There are situations where SWAT teams are necessary, no argument from me there. The problem any more is that the 'Special' has gone by the wayside. Now it's 'EWAT' - 'Everyday Weapons and Tactics'. Not only completely unecessary, but again, affects the mindset of the LEO. Not all situations call for automatic weapons and snipers.

          So we have a police force that is armed like an army, but not displaying any kind of restraint in situations where they should. Let's talk about the disparity in ROE for US military and police. In urban areas, US military personnel are prohibited from firing first (whether they should be is an argument for another day). A mere threat doesn't qualify. The subject that is the threat has to fire first.

          Why aren't police held to the same standard? That would instantly eliminate situations like the boy with the BB gun getting shot.

          And finally,
          These vehicles protect officers from shooters and explosions and can also protect citizens from the same.
          Can you point to even one situation when one of these vehicles would have made a difference?

          You poo-poo the militarization of police and argue that it poses no threat to citizens. I'd argue that it is just the opposite. The one thing that holds government in check are the governed. The men who wrote the Constitution understood this, and provided for it by placing restrictions on the domestic use of the national army. There are no such restrictions on police.

          You can poo-poo that, too, but I would only need to point to history to prove you wrong.
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          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
            Banned
            Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

            I could be wrong, but I think maybe "deer in the headlights" syndrome may have had something to do with it. You have several police yelling at the tops of their lungs, each yelling something different - it's not the easiest thing to process.
            That might be what happened, but since he didn't respond and turned around with the replica weapon raised and pointed in their direction, they responded the way that police respond to a weapon pointed at them. There's no case where that doesn't end in someone getting killed.

            Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

            If these were everyday occurrences, many of us might feel differently. When was the last full-blown riot in the US? When was the last instance of 'domestic terrorism'? And does responding to a riot require automatic weapons?
            riots, domestic terrorism, shooters on a rampage trying to kill as many people as they can, people with explosives and more.
            Steve ... people going on a rampage and shooting as many people as possible, far too often and the last instance of domestic terrorism was in Boston, I believe, not all that long ago.

            Riots (Just the most recent listed here)

            2010s

            2010 - University of Tennessee Lane Kiffin Riot. Students riot on the Knoxville campus following head football coach Lane Kiffin's announcement that he took the head coaching job at the University of Southern California.
            2010 - University of Maryland basketball disturbance 2010, College Park, Maryland, March 3 following a game; 28 arrested.
            2010 - Springfest Riot, April 10, 200 police disperse crowd of 8000 using tear gas, pepper spray, rubber bullets and bean bag rounds, near the campus of James Madison University; dozens injured; 30-35 arrested., Harrisonburg, Virginia
            2010 – Santa Cruz May Day riot, May 1, 250 rampage through downtown Santa Cruz attacking 18 businesses, causing an estimated $100,000 in damages. 1 arrested. Santa Cruz, California
            2010 – L.A. Lakers riot, June 17, Fans riot in Downtown Los Angeles after Lakers win championship, 50 arrested. Los Angeles, California
            2010 – BART Verdict riot, July 8, Riot breaks out in response to verdict in the killing of Oscar Grant, BART Police shooting of Oscar Grant. About 100 businesses were damaged and 78 people were arrested, Oakland, California
            2010 - Eugene Melee, Sept 25, Riot breaks out west of the University of Oregon campus as police use tear gas to break up a rowdy party. 9 arrested. Eugene, Oregon
            2010 - Oakland Protest riot, Nov. 5, Police made more than 150 arrests as a crowd broke windows and knocked down fences, protesting sentence of former BART officer in shooting of Oscar Grant on New Years Day 2009 see BART Police shooting of Oscar Grant., Oakland, California
            2011 - Pennsylvania State University Joe Paterno Riot. Students riot in protest of the decision of the Board of Trustees to fire head football coach Joe Paterno. State College, Pennsylvania
            2011 - Occupy Wall Street (Brooklyn Bridge Protests). Demonstrators blocked the bridge and more than 700 people were arrested. Brooklyn, New York
            2011 - Occupy Wall Street Oakland Protests Riots. October. Protesters shattered windows, set fires, and plastered buildings with graffiti. Riot police fired heavy amounts of tear gas on the protesters.
            2012 NATO 2012 Chicago Summit May. Conflict between riot police. Dozens of demonstrators clubbed and arrested.
            2012 Anaheim police shooting and protests Civil Unrest, July 28th. Violence erupted after multiple shootings in the neighborhood by police that included unarmed Manuel Diaz. 24 people were arrested
            2012 - Bethel Park, Pennsylvania, October 12, Fans riot after a win at home against Upper St. Clair. Fans broke through a fence at the Bethel Park High School stadium.
            2013 - Brooklyn Riots, March 9th. Riots erupt for several nights after the controversial shooting of Kimani Gray. Over 46 demonstrators were arrested.
            2013 - Seattle May Day Protest Riots, May 1st, 17 Arrested as Seattle May Day Protests Turn Violent.

            Full list here
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._United_States

            Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

            One of the problems is that police are now trained to have the attitude that 'everyone is a threat' and that's the way they react.

            The 'militarization of police forces' isn't just about weaponry, but the mindset of police. Fatigues, weapons harnesses, and combat boots? C'mon. You dress a cop up like a soldier, and what do you think he/she starts thinking like?

            There are situations where SWAT teams are necessary, no argument from me there. The problem any more is that the 'Special' has gone by the wayside. Now it's 'EWAT' - 'Everyday Weapons and Tactics'. Not only completely unecessary, but again, affects the mindset of the LEO. Not all situations call for automatic weapons and snipers.


            These are "ordinary" citizens, so fatigues, weapons harnesses, combat boots ... c'mon. Dress citizens up like soldiers and what do they start acting like?

            There are a lot of situations where SWAT teams are not necessary and should NOT be used, and undoubtedly there are probably too many instances where they are used in appropriately, but it's also very difficult to assess a situation in advance... who has semi-automatic weapons there, who has explosives, how many weapons, etc. In a hostage situation or while attempting to bust a drug operation, and a citizen sniper situation, I would expect the perps to be heavily armed, and there's no shortage of those types of situations. I personally have never seen a SWAT team deployed, but I've never lived in a high crime area. With the amount of semi-automatic weapons owned by citizens in this country, cops can only assume that criminals are well armed. It's not like it's a rarity for people to own these weapons.

            Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

            So we have a police force that is armed like an army, but not displaying any kind of restraint in situations where they should. Let's talk about the disparity in ROE for US military and police. In urban areas, US military personnel are prohibited from firing first (whether they should be is an argument for another day). A mere threat doesn't qualify. The subject that is the threat has to fire first.

            Why aren't police held to the same standard? That would instantly eliminate situations like the boy with the BB gun getting shot.
            If you had a weapon that appeared to be a semi-automatic weapon pointed at you and you had a weapon, how long would you wait to pull the trigger. I seriously doubt if I were protecting myself and/or family, I would wait for them to start shooting at me/us.

            And finally,
            Can you point to even one situation when one of these vehicles would have made a difference?

            Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

            You poo-poo the militarization of police and argue that it poses no threat to citizens. I'd argue that it is just the opposite. The one thing that holds government in check are the governed. The men who wrote the Constitution understood this, and provided for it by placing restrictions on the domestic use of the national army. There are no such restrictions on police.
            .... and there are no restrictions, or very few on citizens. Violence begets violence. When the "governed" are armed with military grade weapons, expect the police to do the same.
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            • Profile picture of the author Midnight Oil
              Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

              and the last instance of domestic terrorism was in Boston, I believe
              There's a part of me that thinks the police did a great job responding to the situation in Boston. But it also troubles me because it showed just how easily a community can be brought under control.
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              not displaying any kind of restraint in situations where they should
              I disagree with that - it's a broad brush that doesn't apply in many situations.

              I sympathize with all opinions ont his particular story. But - every NEWS report I've read claims the 13 yr old did not drop the weapons after multiple demands that he do so. The news reports claim he was turning to face the officers and in doing so the gun was raised up. Probably didn't think - obviously didn't react to commands - high price to pay.

              The "deer in the headlights" is an interesting take on it and could be the case. BUT - a 13 yr old carrying a pretend gun that designed to look exactly like an assault rifle....should not be surprised to be challenged.

              What bugs me is how ridiculous this incident was. A cop has to live with knowing he killed a 13 yr old who was unarmed though he didn't appear unarmed. A kid loses his life and future - a Mother loses her son.

              All of because of the availability of a fake assault rifle deliberately designed to appear as real as possible. Take away the gun - and there is no shooting.

              Why don't we require any replica guns sold in the US to have an identifier - a red stock or a red tip visible at the end? Most of these replicas are made in China - why do we need them? Collectors buy the real thing - why do kids need to have guns that look absolutely real?

              To me, it's useless to blame the cops who thought it was a real weapon - or to blame the kid who didn't think quickly enough. Why not change the laws so these fake gun that look totally real.....can be sold to teens? Or can't be sold at all in this country? Why not change the law so these fake gun have to LOOK like a fake gun in some easily identifiable way?

              After I wrote the above, I was looking for bb gun regulations and found this:

              The pellet gun Andy carried was a replica of an AK-47, a Soviet-built rifle that can fire up to 10 bullets in a single second, hardly enough time for any law enforcement officer to ponder what to do. A wrong guess and the story would be about two dead cops.

              To compound the confusion, the weapon did not have a legally required orange tip, a sign that this was a toy. Unfortunately, the Sonoma County tragedy isn't an isolated event.
              .

              each toy, look- alike, or imitation firearm shall have as an integral part, permanently affixed, a blaze orange plug inserted in the barrel of such toy, look-alike, or imitation firearm.
              - See more at: 15 U.S.C. § 5001 : US Code - Section 5001: Penalties for entering into commerce of imitation firearms

              The Department of Commerce is charged with enforcing the federal law above and the Dept of Justice is to prosecute violators.

              So why are these guns from China being sold openly to our kids without the required orange tip?
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            • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
              Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

              That might be what happened, but since he didn't respond and turned around with the replica weapon raised and pointed in their direction, they responded the way that police respond to a weapon pointed at them. There's no case where that doesn't end in someone getting killed.
              The weapon wasn't pointed at them.

              The teen was about 20 or 30 feet away from the deputies with his back toward them when he began turning around with what one deputy described as the barrel of the rifle rising up and turning in his direction, police said.
              I totally understand why the policeman fired - he was afraid for his life, and he panicked. But he was wrong to do so.

              “The deputy’s mindset was that he was fearful that he was going to be shot,” said Santa Rosa police Lt. Paul Henry... .
              The deputy was afraid. I get that. I would be. I'd be peeing in my pants. But I guarantee you that if it had been me that shot the kid, in those circumstances, my ass would be sitting in jail right now.

              Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

              Steve ... people going on a rampage and shooting as many people as possible, far too often and the last instance of domestic terrorism was in Boston, I believe, not all that long ago.

              Riots (Just the most recent listed here)

              Full list here
              List of incidents of civil unrest in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
              That one's totally on me. I'm not sure that I'd call all of those 'riots', but there were sure more than I'd paid attention to.


              Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post



              These are "ordinary" citizens, so fatigues, weapons harnesses, combat boots ... c'mon. Dress citizens up like soldiers and what do they start acting like?
              I'd hardly call these people 'normal' - and neither would you.

              But it seems to be the normal mode of dress now for police, and the 'blue line', 'us vs. them' mentality that goes with it is, frankly, quite frightening.

              Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

              There are a lot of situations where SWAT teams are not necessary and should NOT be used, and undoubtedly there are probably too many instances where they are used in appropriately, but it's also very difficult to assess a situation in advance... It's not like it's a rarity for people to own these weapons.
              Of course it's almost impossible to assess a situation in advance. And I'm not discounting the need for SWAT-type operations in certain scenarios. But that type and level of response seems like it's getting to be more 'normal' than 'special'.

              Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

              If you had a weapon that appeared to be a semi-automatic weapon pointed at you and you had a weapon, how long would you wait to pull the trigger. I seriously doubt if I were protecting myself and/or family, I would wait for them to start shooting at me/us.
              As I said earlier, neither would I. But we'd both be in jail.

              One difference between you and I and LEOs is training. Police are supposed to be trained in assessing these kinds of situations; they aren't supposed to panic and start shooting before they're 100% certain that it's justified.

              Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

              .... and there are no restrictions, or very few on citizens. Violence begets violence. When the "governed" are armed with military grade weapons, expect the police to do the same.
              It may seem like I'm arguing with you just for the sake of argument. I'm really not. Police have a terribly difficult job, one that I wouldn't want. And I really don't expect them to be perfect. I do, though, expect them to have a higher level of competence than the normal citizen in areas like threat assessment and use of force.

              "I was scared" is no justification for shooting someone who isn't actively shooting at you, especially if you're a policeman.
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              • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                Banned
                Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

                It may seem like I'm arguing with you just for the sake of argument. I'm really not. Police have a terribly difficult job, one that I wouldn't want. And I really don't expect them to be perfect. I do, though, expect them to have a higher level of competence than the normal citizen in areas like threat assessment and use of force.
                No, it really doesn't seem argument for the sake of argument. It's a difficult discussion really, because I feel there are too many cases of outright police brutality, and I mean malicious brutality, criminal brutality. I don't feel that this teen case was one of those, but I've seen plenty that I hoped the officers were prosecuted and put away in jail for a long time.

                I personally have never had a police officer act anything but professional and in some cases, kind to me, and like some others in this thread, I was in that "long hair" generation, where there was bias against a culture and even then, every encounter with police was professional. Of course, I am always polite to police.

                The presence of more aggressive police probably depends on locality as well. I just traveled over 100 miles today and never saw a single cop, and if I had, he would have been wearing brown uniform and looked and acted like Andy of Mayberry. I rarely ever see a state cop around here. There's no need for cops to be aggressive around here, but that's not the case in your big cities where their lives are on the line daily and they deal with murder, robbery, and drug operations on a daily basis. That kind of job would make you wary.

                I have absolutely no sympathy for cops who are in the profession to bolster weak egos and strut around on a power trip ... who deliberately intimidate people or who use force when no force is required.
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      • Profile picture of the author KimW
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        I've had that happen twice in two years so maybe that's why I don't buy into the "cops as bad guys always" scenario. I also had one stop to see if I was OK when I was pulled over at the side of the road.

        If you are going to shoot a gun at someone - you shoot at the largest part of the body. If you aren't willing to do that - shouldn't be carrying a gun.

        I was surprised to find this (not affiliate link)
        Amazon.com - Denix Russian AK-47 Assault Rifle (Non-Firing Replica) - Airsoft Rifles

        That same replica is featured on several websites an the text isn't about "realistic replica" but about the awesome killing power of AK47s.

        Here's a bb gun - note the red plastic at the tip?
        Amazon.com: Velocity Airsoft AUG A2 Spring Airsoft Gun Full Scale Assault Rifle Bullpup FPS-300 Integrated Vertical Foregrip, Comes w/ BB Speed Loader: Sports & Outdoors

        Why would any parent allow a young teen to purchase and carry one of those real-looking fake guns around??? What parent doesn't teach a kid these days that when a cop tells you to do something, you respect that authority?

        This was a tragic killing that should not have happened - I agree with that. But I think there are lessons to learn that could save other kids. Maybe a parent doesn't allow a kid to have real-looking "pretend guns" - or teaches their kid "even if you know you are doing nothing wrong....do what the cop tells you to do".

        For years we had the public services ads...."do you know where your children are"? Today do we know what guns our kids are carrying?

        You have not seen me say "all cops are bad".

        But lets also face it Kay, if you are a reasonably attractive female you have a much higher chance of being given a verbal warning.

        I'm sorry, the cops were in the wrong to kill the kid. I didn't see in any report that the susprct rasied the weapon and turned and pointed it at the officers.
        If that had happened then maybe they might have some fear. But last I knew a kid walking down the street with a toy gun does not justify a murder sentence.

        We just have to agree to disagree on this one.

        By the way, the AK47 is a very popular gun in almost all the first person shooter video games out there.
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        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
          Banned
          Originally Posted by KimW View Post

          I didn't see in any report that the susprct rasied the weapon and turned and pointed it at the officers.
          The deputies were 20-30 feet away when they saw him with the gun. They asked him twice to drop it. He was not facing them. When they asked him to drop it, he turned around to face them with the gun pointed in their direction. All of the reports I've read say the same thing.



          A Sonoma County sheriff’s deputy twice told the boy to drop the weapon, but he instead raised it in the deputy’s direction, police said at a news conference Wednesday.

          “The deputy’s mindset was that he was fearful that he was going to be shot,” said Santa Rosa police Lt. Paul Henry, whose agency is investigating the shooting in the suburban town of roughly 170,000 people. It’s about 50 miles northwest of San Francisco in California’s wine country.

          The gun looked just like an AK-47 assault rifle, with a black body and ammunition magazine, and a brown butt and grip. Only after the shooting did deputies realize it was a plastic replica, authorities said.
          Police said two deputies were riding in a marked patrol vehicle and were in uniforms when they spotted Andy in a hooded sweatshirt and shorts at 3:14 p.m. Tuesday. His back was turned toward the deputies, and they did not realize he was a boy.

          One of the deputies saw what appeared to be an assault rifle similar to an AK-47 in the teen’s left hand. The deputies pulled over and took cover behind one of the vehicle’s doors, according to police.

          A witness reported seeing the patrol car’s overhead emergency lights turn on and hearing the chirp of a siren, police said.

          One of the deputies twice ordered Andy to drop the weapon, according to a witness, police said.

          The teen was about 20 or 30 feet away from the deputies with his back toward them

          The teen was about 20 or 30 feet away from the deputies with his back toward them when he began turning around with what one deputy described as the barrel of the rifle rising up and turning in his direction, police said.

          One deputy then fired several rounds, striking the boy at least once, Henry said. He was pronounced dead at the scene.

          Cops killed teen holding toy gun after 10 seconds | New York Post
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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      By the way.
      The other day I was driving down the road near my house when I saw the lights flashing behind me.
      I was sitting at a stop light when I saw them so I went through the light and pulled off where I wouldn't obstruct other traffic. ( I hate traffic stops where they disrupt every vehicle on the road).

      The cop asked me if I know why he pulled me over like all police do,trying to get you to admit guilt.

      I said no.
      He said I was doing 50 in a 40 zone.

      I told him I usually am very careful with my speed but that he was probably right today.

      He asked wehre I was going.
      I said a Drs appointment.

      He went back to his patrol car and I assume ran a check.

      A few minutes later he came back, handed me my registration and license and told me to slow down,be more careful and have a nice day.

      I swear that is the first time in 15-20 years I have seen an officer do that.

      As we all have said,there are good and bad in every area of life. It was nice to see good.
      Kim - that's what I was talking about in my last post. It's absolutely horrifying to be pulled over now. You never know what's going to happen to you. It seems that the insane cops will beat you, tase you, or anything they want for nothing -- and there are cops that know that and go out of their way to make you comfortable about the situation. That experience in NV was just sick. I knew that this guy was just waiting for an excuse to tase me - not imaginary - that guy was inciting, he was rude, belligerent, and very, very clear he was ready to pull his taser out - and lying his face off about my infraction -- I've been so wary of cops since.

      Once you meet one of his type of cop, you never fully trust one again. Seeing them acquitted for anything and everything they do just because they can hide behind a badge is enough to make a person blow lunch.
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  • Profile picture of the author azgold
    It was very obvious in the video that the officers had opportunity to cuff the man.

    I have no idea if they were aware of the man's schizophrenia but that probably wasn't their focus during this time. Restraint should have been. How many times do you have to beat and tazer someone before they're docile enough to handcuff?

    Sometimes certain types of people enjoy their job a little too much.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by azgold View Post

      It was very obvious in the video that the officers had opportunity to cuff the man.

      I have no idea if they were aware of the man's schizophrenia but that probably wasn't their focus during this time. Restraint should have been. How many times do you have to beat and tazer someone before they're docile enough to handcuff?

      Sometimes certain types of people enjoy their job a little too much.
      I think they knew he was mentally ill and the first cops to arrive reportedly had the situation nearly under control without deadly force, and then this other cop comes in and within minutes kills the guy. I sincerely hope that one cop goes to jail for a long time.
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    • Profile picture of the author Midnight Oil
      Originally Posted by azgold View Post

      How many times do you have to beat and tazer someone before they're docile enough to handcuff?
      That depends. Twice I've seen skinny little dudes, drunk and/or drugged out of their minds, sling handfuls of cops around like ragdolls before they were finally able to get them under control. Some of this crap people get all jacked up on these days gives them close to super human strength.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    All reports that I read do not say the same thing.
    In ANY scene I can imagine that kid should still be alive. .
    The problem is not toy guns.
    They have been around for years.
    The problem is the society we live in.
    The problem is, as stated at the beginning, the police are too eager to use excessive force and too eager to kill.

    I made a strong point to mention that these are my personal opinions and I am not trying to force anyone to agree with me. But I do wonder how many of you would be defending if it was your 13 year old child that was dead? Or your father or grandfather that was wheelchair bound and had dementia that was dead now after threatening the police with a spoon?
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      All reports that I read do not say the same thing.
      In ANY scene I can imagine that kid should still be alive. .
      The problem is not toy guns.
      They have been around for years.
      The problem is the society we live in.
      The problem is, as stated at the beginning, the police are too eager to use excessive force and too eager to kill.

      I made a strong point to mention that these are my personal opinions and I am not trying to force anyone to agree with me. But I do wonder how many of you would be defending if it was your 13 year old child that was dead? Or your father or grandfather that was wheelchair bound and had dementia that was dead now after threatening the police with a spoon?
      Well, eye witnesses say that the kid refused to drop the gun and was told to twice. From the photo, anyone who is objective can see that you wouldn't know that was a toy gun, or from 20-30 ft away with his back turned to you, a teenager.

      You're right about the problem being the society we live in. These days teenagers are just as likely to be stone cold killers as adults. Just yesterday, this was in the news.

      Two students were shot and wounded on Friday at a charter high school in northern Philadelphia, police said, in the latest of a string of school shootings....

      The incident follows a shooting on Tuesday at a New Mexico middle school, where a 12-year-old boy is accused of opening fire with a shotgun and seriously wounding two students.

      In October, a 12-year-old boy in Sparks, Nevada, opened fire at his school, killing a teacher and wounding two students before killing himself.

      Two students shot at Philadelphia high school; suspect held | Reuters
      Another "kid" brings a gun to school and shoots two students. Fortunately, they didn't die. Then there's Newtown, yet another "kid" with a gun.

      I don't recall a single news story about demented old coots in a wheelchair armed with a spoon being able to harm or kill anyone. The cases aren't even remotely similar, so to just shoot someone who is wheelchair bound and armed with a spoon is rather hard to justify using self and public defense as an excuse.

      No one is saying that it isn't tragic that a teen got killed, but it's a lot easier to see why he did after seeing the gun he was carrying and reading that he refused to drop it when told to twice by cops.

      But I do wonder how many of you would be defending if it was your 13 year old child that was dead?
      Ask anyone how we'd feel if we were the parents of one of the many dead children who were slaughtered by teens with guns.

      Personally, I wouldn't let my children walk around with assault weapon replicas and I always taught my children to do as they were told to do with no backtalk if a police officer told them to do something, whether or not the cop is right or wrong. One has to wonder if this teens' parents taught him to disrepect cops. If so, it cost him his life.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    "All of because of the availability of a fake assault rifle deliberately designed to appear as real as possible. Take away the gun - and there is no shooting.
    "
    Seriously Kay?

    Groups of us walked around as kids and none of us ever got shot for it.
    All you are saying is deal with a symptom,not the problem.

    We also carried pocket knives every place we went.

    Today I can't even get onto an airplane with a knife with a blade less than 2 inches long. What is the knife made and used for? A magic trick. :rolleyes:

    Anyway............


    While 2 is "multiple" almost all reports I have seen was he was told twice.

    Maybe he didn't hear clearly.Who knows.

    None of us were there.

    This thread was not about this one instance.

    My response to the OP is yes, they are out of control.

    That is not a blanket statement saying every cop is bad.

    Those of you that think the police did their job when they shot that 13 year old boy are welcome to think that.

    There is no amount of justification anyone can state that will change my mind on who the criminals are here.

    These were luckier

    Tased without cause.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    Oh, as for the reports of the teen turning around with the gun pointed.....usually it is the officer involved in the shooting making that statement. Tends to give justification to the officer,doesn't it? :rolleyes:
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    BINGO!
    This one sentence sums it up correctly.
    ""I was scared" is no justification for shooting someone who isn't actively shooting at you, especially if you're a policeman."

    Yes, we get it .They were scared. But as has been stated before, they knew what the job entailed before they took it.


    The line used to be part of a joke: I thought he was going to hit me so I hit him first.
    Police can't hit first.
    Police are and need to be held to a higher standard. If they can't accept and live by that they should not be in the job.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Pretty much why people are saying that we need to fix our social problems instead of militarizing our police, Suzanne. I've been where the cops are not much more than a union of thugs. I've been where they are Mayberry - I live in Mayberry right now and it's a fairly safe feeling. But when I see militarized troops of cops on our streets, my blood runs cold.

    As the gov continues to illegalize every damned thing on earth and taking more and more of our money - making life harder for us.......it's going to continue to get more violent. Societies that are moved into fascism always become dangerous. Always. We either go back to a little freedom, or martial law WILL be instated against us. That is what the training is for. There's growing numbers of cops that are taking the pledge as "oathkeepers". These are cops that are declaring they will refuse to follow illegal orders against citizens. You don't get those kind of movements because people are bored and need something to do. These are put into action because even the cops see a problem with the state of things.

    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind?” ― Frédéric Bastiat, The Law
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Pretty much why people are saying that we need to fix our social problems instead of militarizing our police, Suzanne. I've been where the cops are not much more than a union of thugs. I've been where they are Mayberry - I live in Mayberry right now and it's a fairly safe feeling. But when I see militarized troops of cops on our streets, my blood runs cold.
      When I see anarchists and militarized civilians, oh and murderers and other assorted violent criminals it makes my blood run cold.

      Oathkeepers and fringe extremists and facisism.... yawn.

      Go ahead and fix the social problems if you have the answers. Undoubtedly, what you consider to be social problems and what others consider to be social problems will be a very different list.

      The riots of Baltimore that I spoke of was allegedly due to the assassination of Martin Luther King, but tell me how destroying peoples' businesses and homes and burning a city down and all the destruction and looting solved any social problems. Bigotry still exists and so do stinking, lousy thieves that riot and loot and burn in the name of someone who was so far above them, they didn't deserve to breathe the same air as he did.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    They're worried about their safety right? They didn't even make the Top 10 list of dangerous professions.

    In fact cops don’t even rank in the top 10 most dangerous jobs in the country according to The Bureau of Labor Statistics.

    What exactly is more dangerous than being a cop? For starters, a trash collector is twice as likely to die on the job versus a cop, fishing is 7 times more dangerous than being a cop, and logging workers, nearly 9 times more dangerous.

    Here are occupations more dangerous than being a police officer. Number of deaths per 100,000 employed:

    Logging workers: 127.8Aircraft pilots: 53.4Garbage collectors: 36.8Electrical power line installation/repair: 29.8Truck drivers: 22.8Oil and gas extraction: 21.9Farmers and ranchers: 21.3
    Read more at Top 10 Most Dangerous Jobs in the Country: Police Officer is NOT on the List | The Free Thought Project

    Yeah - it's risky, but obviously not risky enough to justify themselves blowing people away`that are no threat. If they "perceive threats" too easily, they are still a danger to us. A dumb cop is just as much of a threat to us as a fascist cop.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      They're worried about their safety right? They didn't even make the Top 10 list of dangerous professions.
      More ridiculous statistics? I liked the ones where you cited about how you're 8 times more likely to be killed by a cop as you are a terrorist, but didn't mention that you're more likely to be killed picking your nose than you are being killed by a terrorist. You only seem to cite statistics and sources when it supports your position.

      Next time you're in danger, call a fisherman or lumberjack or trash collector if it makes you feel better. I'll stick with the cops.

      Personally, I don't care about your statistics, and about the opinions of people who have never put themselves in danger in public service and never will. Not only are cops concerned for their own lives, but they are responsible for the lives of their team/partners and the public. Until you've stared down the barrel of a gun while trying to make the streets safer for ungrateful citizens, I don't care what professions might be more dangerous. Try it some time ... only I suggest that you wear a diaper. It's more sanitary when you shit your pants.

      Some more statistics about the most dangerous jobs.

      The second-highest cause of worker fatalities was assaults and violent acts, which accounted for 18% of deaths. The preliminary data shows that workplace suicides fell slightly in 2010 to 258 after climbing to a high of 263 the year before.

      Violence took the lives of 767 workers last year; with 463 homicides and 225 suicides. (Work-related suicides declined by 10% from 2011 totals, but violence accounted for about 17% of all fatal work injuries in 2012.) Shootings were the most frequent manner of death in both.
      America's 10 Deadliest Jobs - Forbes
      And here's another list for you where cops make the top 15:

      We've got a list of the 15 most dangerous jobs from the BLS.

      If you're not afraid of getting trapped in a mine or climbing 1,700-foot broadcast towers without safety cords, then go get yourself a job.


      15. Grounds maintenance workers
      12 fatalities per 100,000
      160 fatalities in 2007
      Falls are a common cause of death.

      14. Helpers, construction trades
      13.7 fatalities per 100,000
      18 fatalities in 2007
      Falls are a common cause of death.
      $15/hr is the average wage.

      13. Firefighters
      17.4 fatalities per 100,000
      50 fatalities in 2007
      Fires and explosions are common causes of death.
      Wage information was not available.

      12. Construction laborers
      19.5 fatalities per 100,000
      345 fatalities in 2007
      Falls are a common cause of death.
      $16/hr is the average wage.

      11. Taxi drivers and chauffeurs
      21.3 fatalities per 100,000
      50 fatalities in 2007
      Assaults and violent acts are common causes of death.
      $12/hr is the average wage.

      10. Police and sheriff's patrol officers
      21.8 fatalities per 100,000
      146 fatalities in 2007
      Transportation incidents are a common cause of death.
      Wage information is not available.

      9. Refuse and recyclable material collectors
      22.8 fatalities per 100,000
      18 fatalities in 2007
      Transportation incidents are a common cause of death.
      $17/hr is the average wage.

      8. Driver/sales workers and truck drivers
      28.2 fatalities per 100,000
      976 fatalities in 2007
      Transportation incidents are a common cause of death.
      $12/hr is the average wage.

      7. Electrical power-line installers and repairers
      29.1 fatalities per 100,000
      30 fatalities in 2007
      Exposure to harmful substances or environments is a common cause of death.
      $22/hr is the average wage.

      6. Roofers
      29.4 fatalities per 100,000
      79 fatalities in 2007
      Falls are a common cause of death.
      $16/hr is the average wage.

      5. Farmers and ranchers
      39.5 fatalities per 100,000
      293 fatalities in 2007
      Transportation incidents are a common cause of death.
      Wage information was not available.

      4. Structural iron and steel workers
      45.5 fatalities per 100,000
      40 fatalities in 2007
      Contact with objects and equipment is a common cause of death.
      $19/hr is the average wage.

      3. Aircraft pilots and flight engineers
      70.7 fatalities per 100,000
      87 fatalities in 2007
      Transportation incidents are a common cause of death.
      Wage information was not available.

      2. Logging workers
      86.4 fatalities per 100,000
      76 fatalities in 2007
      Contact with objects and equipment is a common cause of death.
      $13/hr is the average wage.

      1. Fishers and related fishing workers
      111.8 fatalities per 100,000
      38 fatalities in 2008
      Transportation incidents are a common cause of death.
      $13/hr is the average wage.
      and on this list, they're #11
      Most Dangerous Jobs In America - Business Insider

      And from the Bureau of Labor Statistics....
      http://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfar0020.pdf

      Note the chart, Table 1

      And finally, Forbes Most Stressful Jobs of 2014

      Along with military jobs, there are several other positions on the top ten most stressful list that involve risk to one’s own life or responsibility for others’ lives. That includes firefighter, No. 3 on the list, airline pilot, No. 4, and police officer, No. 9.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Braybrooke
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    But David, they have to fire. They were coming under scrutiny for tasing people to death.
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    • Profile picture of the author David Braybrooke
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      But David, they have to fire. They were coming under scrutiny for tasing people to death.
      Time for new methods to control crime. There must be other solutions. America has always been great with innovation and problem solving. Don't tell me this is too big.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    While I will continue to read the posts in this thread, I think I am probably out of the discussion.

    I think Steve summed it up well.

    ""I was scared" is no justification for shooting someone who isn't actively shooting at you, especially if you're a policeman."

    While there are instances where I disagree, finding a burglar in my house, being attacked,etc etc, this discussion is about the police. There are many people that are more than happy to give up their freedoms and rights to feel protected. Refusing to see something does not mean it isn't right in front of you.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dhira
    Yup.

    Cops need more of a taste of their own medicine.... and less guns.
    Gun control is more necessary for 'cops' than it is for citizens imo.
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  • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
    Another case of where overcharging the suspects ended up biting people in the ass.

    Here's the problem with charging murder in this case....you have to prove premeditation. Here's the definition, in case you are wondering.

    The problem isn't that we have cops out of control....we have way too many glory hounds posing as District Attorney's and Attorney General's that are swinging for grand slam home runs to burnish their political careers, with the end result being too many criminals walking...and a bar association that is way too lenient on the practice.

    This is not justice....it's a travesty on a level that is unthinkable.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Had to go back to the first post to find the "charge" connection but I agree.

      Over charging on an incident like this means media time for the D.A. The public, upset over an incident, feels something is "being done" - and it's going to lead to an acquittal most of the time.

      It's hard to argue a cop responded to a call for help with the intent of killing someone - or that a police officer has a total disregard for human life when he is responding to a call for help.
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      • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        Had to go back to the first post to find the "charge" connection but I agree.

        Over charging on an incident like this means media time for the D.A. The public, upset over an incident, feels something is "being done" - and it's going to lead to an acquittal most of the time.

        It's hard to argue a cop responded to a call for help with the intent of killing someone - or that a police officer has a total disregard for human life when he is responding to a call for help.
        Exactly.....I didn't even need to see the original video to know murder was too steep a climb to prove.

        What is really needed is for the bar to start cracking down on overcharging suspects as a public service. We have the necessary laws in place to stop out of control cops, but if out of control DA's and AG's overcharge the cops, and they end up walking as a result, what good did that really do?

        Was justice served by that waste of taxpayer money?
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          These stories are "news events".

          In the case of the homeless, schizophrenic man who was killed....really hard to understand the need for such brutality by the police. So why was the story manipulated by the media?

          Almost all media used the image below to show "Kelly Thomas"....but that photo was from 2002 (he died in 2011).

          https://www.facebook.com/Justice4KellyThomas

          A photo (link below) of the same man as he appeared the night cops confronted him in 2011.

          Google Image Result for

          Thomas was 37 - living alone as a homeless man. Yet the city awarded his mother $1 million for her agreement not to file suit against the city. Some things make no sense to me...but that's just me.

          I think the money would be better spent on mental health institutions so paranoid schizophrenics wouldn't have to live on the streets.
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