Are the anti-vaxxers bringing measles back?

10 years ago

Originally Posted by joe golfer

Some feel anti-vaccination supporters are to blame for outbreaks of measles in places like NYC.

Thanks, Anti-Vaxxers. You Just Brought Back Measles in NYC. - The Daily Beast

Been though this one before. It is better to have these types of viruses, go through them when you are a kid and then never have to worry about them again. Not good to miss a booster and get them when an adult as effects are worst. Strengthens your immune system too.

I went through the lot as a kid, measles, german measles, mumps, whooping cough and chicken pox.Will not have to worry about them again. Vaccinations against these should be outlawed. Bad medicine!

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seasoned

10 years ago

Well, I had the german measles AND chickenpox, the NORMAL WAY. DON'T BLAME ME!

If vaccines are SO popular, and SO good, why aren't THEY immune? If you have it, and are in NYC, give the governor a big HUG, and whisper how you feel about this to him. If you don't mind doing so, give him a nice big KISS! I mean HE should have his shots, RIGHT?

Steve

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HeySal

10 years ago

I had em all, too. Personally - if someone is scared of a disease that is rarely fatal, let em shoot themselves to eternity and back if they want to. The state of their immune system isn't my freaking problem. Nobody has a right to order someone to have their body injected with anything. That's called slavery. You own your body, not some gov or health agency.

Now - what happens if EVERYONE gets vaccinated, and the problem is gone right? So they finally give up the billions they're making giving that vaccine. Well, surprise. Viruses can be revived after 10s of thousands of years.........and all that has to happen is to have someone accidentally dig them up, unfreeze them, bust up the halite or other mineral they were stored in. And then if they are truly that deadly, your population is screwed anyone. The alternative is to worry about dying from a disease that rarely kills, is to get a vaccine that will kill it .....at the expense of your immune system, so now you are immune to one rarely severely harmful disease, but can't fight off 6 others. Sounds like a plan, Stan. Keep your vaccines and I will kindly keep my immune system. If your vaccines work, I'm not even any threat to you.

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Kay King

10 years ago

I think it's the height of stupidity NOT to vaccinate your children against common diseases that can be prevented.

Measles has killed thousands of people over the years ....polio...smallpox...TB....whooping cough...chicken pox...on and on.

This anti-vaccine movement has been going on for years now and the problem is scientific studies do not support the anti-vaccine people's claims.

There is risk that un-vaccinated people could serve as host for diseases which could mutate and affect other people. I think schools, day care facilities, etc are right to refuse to admit children who have not been vaccinated.

This movement was a reaction to increased incidence of autism - but I'm not convinced autism increased to begin with. I think the diagnosis of autism increased.

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

This movement was a reaction to increased incidence of autism - but I'm not convinced autism increased to begin with. I think the diagnosis of autism increased.

First off, anyone that says Autism is now one in whatever, etc.. is a LIAR! The diagnosis was broadened around 1980(IIRC), and broadened even MORE later. People that earlier would NEVER have been considered autistic now ARE! To make things WORSE, they recently "backpedaled" things in the latest DSM and, as a result, make things look WORSE than they are. It is ALSO the latest way to get out of a severe sentence in court. Instead of being considered crazy or some such, you can merely declare you are AS, and you can likely find a psychiatrist to back you up.

But I disagree that the movement started with autism. People are trying to poison us, and vaccines is one way they have been doing it. ALSO, there have been CONTAMINATED vaccines, etc.... And MOST antivaxers that are anti autism types are CLAIMING the vaccine affects a situation that occurs around the age of 2, though they claim it happens as late as 5 sometimes. I think that is because the kids have CDD and/or the parents are not very reasonable.

Did you hear? POLIO IS BACK! OK, OK, it is a "new" type. A common virus mutated.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/lifestyl...YnN/story.html

They CLAIM it is "rare" but then say "identified 15 to 20 more sudden paralysis cases occuring mostly in children"! I say, if that happens, WATCH OUT! This could be just the start.

Steve

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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

First off, anyone that says Autism is now one in whatever, etc.. is a LIAR!

I agree. Any statistic is a lie. Even true ones. And I believe anyone giving a statistic about autism is a liar...I'm sorry, a LIAR.

I love it.

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Kay King

10 years ago

Why all this hate? You're vaccinated, and you won't get it. You're not vaccinated, sucks to be you when you get it.

Because - given a foothold - virus mutates. You may be protected against the virus - but if hosts allow it to mutate...you may not be protected against what comes next.

In Syria, a polio like disease is affecting hundreds of the children. It will affect an entire generation...because there is insufficient medical care and vaccination in this war torn country.

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Floyd Fisher

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Because - given a foothold - virus mutates. You may be protected against the virus - but if hosts allow it to mutate...you may not be protected against what comes next.

In Syria, a polio like disease is affecting hundreds of the children. It will affect an entire generation...because there is insufficient medical care and vaccination in this war torn country.

Viruses will do that whether a vaccine exists or not.

If they didn't, I would not need to keep getting the flu vaccine...nor would I need the shingles vaccine (I already got the chicken pox)...and heaven knows what else.

Let's tone down the hysteria, ok?

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Floyd Fisher

Viruses will do that whether a vaccine exists or not.

If they didn't, I would not need to keep getting the flu vaccine...nor would I need the shingles vaccine (I already got the chicken pox)...and heaven knows what else.

Let's tone down the hysteria, ok?

I don't see any hysteria going on. Are you feeling hysterical? Not me, but I'll respond as I wish ... It's a discussion forum. Point >>> Counterpoint. Get it?

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Floyd Fisher

10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

I don't see any hysteria going on. Are you feeling hysterical? Not me, but I'll respond as I wish ... It's a discussion forum. Point >>> Counterpoint. Get it?

I'm not the one trying to scare people with pictures and lists of diseases, you are.

So yea, I'd say you are the one with the hysteria going on.

Me? I understand the only thing vaccines can protect are those who use 'em...so I do.

If you don't want to get vaccinated, the only place you will find sympathy when you do get sick is in the dictionary....it's between the words 'shit' and 'syphillis'.

You can only lead a horse to water, you can't make them drink.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Floyd Fisher

I'm not the one trying to scare people with pictures and lists of diseases, you are.

So yea, I'd say you are the one with the hysteria going on.

Me? I understand the only thing vaccines can protect are those who use 'em...so I do.

If you don't want to get vaccinated, the only place you will find sympathy when you do get sick is in the dictionary....it's between the words 'shit' and 'syphillis'.

You can only lead a horse to water, you can't make them drink.

No. I'm not hysterical in the least bit. Those pictures and those diseases are very real. I thank my mother for her caring and common sense. I don't have to worry about those diseases. Nor do my children since I followed in my mother's footsteps and got the vaccinations for them.

But it doesn't diminish the fact that those diseases were and some still are devastating. As for sympathy ... the victims of the this anti-vaccination trend are the children who are not the decision makers in their own healthcare, so yeah, I do have sympathy for them and for all the children in countries where vaccination is not the norm.

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lanfear63

10 years ago

Would be interesting to see the stats of people getting other viruses who have weak immune systems due to excessive vacciations against these, V the people who dont.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by lanfear63

Would be interesting to see the stats of people getting other viruses who have weak immune systems due to excessive vacciations against these, V the people who dont.

Well, I'm fully vaccinated and have never been hospitalized for anything other than having 4 children and have never had a disease other than the common cold and occasionally the flu. There might be a correlation between vaccinations and excessive fertility.

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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

Originally Posted by lanfear63

Would be interesting to see the stats of people getting other viruses who have weak immune systems due to excessive vacciations against these, V the people who dont.

Ian (Man, I hope that's your name)

The vaccines strengthen your immune system. A vaccine gives you a very mild version of the virus so your body can build anti-bodies to kill the virus. So your body's defenses are now stronger, not weaker. I know it may be counter-intuitive, but that's the way it works.

Vaccines are a way to make your immune system stronger, without the damaging effects of actually getting very ill.

And having measles doesn't make your body stronger. It weakens your body.

After getting over measles...does anyone feel stronger than they did before they had measles? I wouldn't think so.

My knowledge of vaccines is very basic. I'm perfectly willing to be convinced otherwise, by evidence.

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lanfear63

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Ian (Man, I hope that's your name)

The vaccines strengthen your immune system. A vaccine gives you a very mild version of the virus so your body can build anti-bodies to kill the virus. So your body's defenses are now stronger, not weaker. I know it may be counter-intuitive, but that's the way it works.

Vaccines are a way to make your immune system stronger, without the damaging effects of actually getting very ill.

And having measles doesn't make your body stronger. It weakens your body.

After getting over measles...does anyone feel stronger than they did before they had measles? I wouldn't think so.

My knowledge of vaccines is very basic. I'm perfectly willing to be convinced otherwise, by evidence.

Names Mark actually, dog with a hair lip. :-) Lanfear was an ancestors name. Riffle told me yours was really Celene but I don't believe him Desdemona.

Back in the UK in the 60's it seemed normal that all kids would go through these viruses. Then out of the way no re-occurance. Don't know what it was like here then but probably no vaccines in the UK or here , but now we seem to have a choice! I have led a relatively healthy life since having them but that is no proof of anything.

Yep, really need some stats and I'm sure they are available somewhere.

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

I agree. Any statistic is a lie. Even true ones. And I believe anyone giving a statistic about autism is a liar...I'm sorry, a LIAR.

I love it.

They messed with the definition which means they have NO point of reference. They make it IMPOSSIBLE to know how many are affected, so they can't give a percentage.

FOR EXAMPLE, after the change of the maximum allowed magazines, and their size, NY could determine it affects 9million people and say that the number of felons suddenly increased! You look at the statistic, and figure you are in more danger than ever before, even though NOTHING happened, and the number may have actually DROPPED!

When the DSM added a class for HFA, the number of autistics SKYROCKETED! When they added a class for AS, the number skyrocketed FURTHER! MOST of them are really nowhere NEAR the LFA that most people envision. So say it has tripled, and most view an increase in the LFA, even though the LFA and even the WHOLE number may have DROPPED!

And THAT is why NOBODY can tell you how many autistics there are, or how many there were, and can't give you reliable statistics, and can't tell you how they relate to the past.

Steve

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

And THAT is why NOBODY can tell you how many autistics there are, or how many there were, and can't give you reliable statistics, and can't tell you how they relate to the past.

Steve

Nor can they reliably link autism to vaccinations. I don't know one single person with autism and I don't know one single person who is unvaccinated. Does that mean that constitutes proof that vaccinations and autism are not linked. I don't think so, any more than they have nothing but half baked theories about a link between the two. In the meantime, children are protected from a lot of horrendous diseases, some of which have been wiped out as they existed.

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Nor can they reliably link autism to vaccinations. I don't know one single person with autism and I don't know one single person who is unvaccinated. Does that mean that constitutes proof that vaccinations and autism are not linked. I don't think so, any more than they have nothing but half baked theories about a link between the two. In the meantime, children are protected from a lot of horrendous diseases, some of which have been wiped out as they existed.

You likely DO know people with autism! There is a rumor about a very famous guy. My father actually met him and confirmed the rumor, as he was told. ANYWAY, HE has AS(considered AUTISM). I won't same the name, but nearly everyone that has seen this site, would recognize the name.

ANYWAY, I said MYSELF, a few messages back(#6), that I don't even believe those that "have autism" from vaccines have autism. I believe it is CDD! Childhood disintegrative disorder Definition - Diseases and Conditions - Mayo Clinic

Steve

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

I think it's the height of stupidity NOT to vaccinate your children against common diseases that can be prevented.

Measles has killed thousands of people over the years ....polio...smallpox...TB....whooping cough...chicken pox...on and on.

This anti-vaccine movement has been going on for years now and the problem is scientific studies do not support the anti-vaccine people's claims.

There is risk that un-vaccinated people could serve as host for diseases which could mutate and affect other people. I think schools, day care facilities, etc are right to refuse to admit children who have not been vaccinated.

This movement was a reaction to increased incidence of autism - but I'm not convinced autism increased to begin with. I think the diagnosis of autism increased.

I'll second that. Not fatal? BS ... Measles almost wiped out the Hawaiians when the missionaries brought it over. Why not expose a pregnant woman to German measles?

Infection of the mother by rubella virus during pregnancy can be serious; if the mother is infected within the first 20 weeks of pregnancy, the child may be born with congenital rubella syndrome (CRS), which entails a range of serious incurable illnesses. Miscarriage occurs in up to 20% of cases.[2]

Measles (not German)

After 100 children death in recent epidemic eruption; Pakistan has started to make a new struggle against measles outbreak soon after polio. In just last one month of the last year, more than 100 children died in province Sindh.

Whooping Cough anyone?

It is currently estimated that the disease annually affects 48.5 million people worldwide, resulting in nearly 295,000 deaths.[4]

Hey, let's bring a little smallpox back to make things interesting

The last naturally occurring case of smallpox (Variola minor) was diagnosed on 26 October 1977.[5]

Smallpox localized in small blood vessels of the skin and in the mouth and throat. In the skin it resulted in a characteristic maculopapular rash and, later, raised fluid-filled blisters. V. major produces a more serious disease and has an overall mortality rate of 30–35%. V. minor causes a milder form of disease (also known as alastrim, cottonpox, milkpox, whitepox, and Cuban itch) which kills about 1% of its victims.[6][7] Long-term complications of V. major infection include characteristic scars, commonly on the face, which occur in 65–85% of survivors.[8] Blindness resulting from corneal ulceration and scarring, and limb deformities due to arthritis and osteomyelitis are less common complications, seen in about 2–5% of cases.

Smallpox is believed to have emerged in human populations about 10,000 BC.[4] The earliest physical evidence of it is probably the pustular rash on the mummified body of Pharaoh Ramses V of Egypt.[9] The disease killed an estimated 400,000 Europeans annually during the closing years of the 18th century (including five reigning monarchs),[10] and was responsible for a third of all blindness.[6][11] Of all those infected, 20–60%—and over 80% of infected children—died from the disease.[12] Smallpox was responsible for an estimated 300–500 million deaths during the 20th century.[13][14][15] As recently as 1967, the World Health Organization (WHO) estimated that 15 million people contracted the disease and that two million died in that year.[5]

Do you really miss Polio? I don't. I had friends with it because there was no vaccine available at that time.

Although major polio epidemics were unknown before the 20th century,[1] the disease has caused paralysis and death for much of human history. Over millennia, polio survived quietly as an endemic pathogen until the 1880s when major epidemics began to occur in Europe;[1] soon after, widespread epidemics appeared in the United States. By 1910, frequent epidemics became regular events throughout the developed world, primarily in cities during the summer months. At its peak in the 1940s and 1950s, polio would paralyze or kill over half a million people worldwide every year.[2]

In the 1950’s whole hospital wards in the US were filled with iron lungs to treat polio victims.

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yukon

Banned 10 years ago

This thread is infested.

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lanfear63

10 years ago

Probably just a virus

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MissTerraK

10 years ago

Originally Posted by lanfear63

Probably just a virus

Did you get your vaccination for it? :p

Terra

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lanfear63

10 years ago

Originally Posted by MissTerraK

Did you get your vaccination for it? :p

Terra

It's Riffleitus, no known cure. You just have to go though it. Fatalities are very rare and Claudica lozengers provide some relief. However you think you have got rid of it and suddenly another one liner attack. Claude has been plagued by it for years.

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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

Originally Posted by lanfear63

It's Riffleitus, no known cure. You just have to go though it. Fatalities are very rare and Claudica lozengers provide some relief. However you think you have got rid of it and suddenly another one liner attack. Claude has been plagued by it for years.

HA! Pretty darn funny. Most would tell you that trying to cure Riffleitis with Claudica...is like trying to cure alcoholism with a Bloody Mary. Or trying to cure a headache buy getting punched in the stomach.

And they would probably be right.

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ThomM

10 years ago

http://worldtruth.tv/cdc-forced-to-r...uses-autism-3/

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

http://worldtruth.tv/cdc-forced-to-r...uses-autism-3/

In his 2004 commentary (which is behind a paywall), Verstraeten says, "Did the CDC water down the original results? It did not."

He goes on to write

The CDC screening study of thimerosal-containing vaccines was perceived at first as a positive study that found an association between thimerosal and some neurodevelopmental outcomes. This was the perception both independent scientists and antivaccine lobbyists had at the conclusion of the first phase of the study. It was foreseen from the very start that any positive outcome would lead to a second phase.

In other words, when you dig into raw numbers and find some mathematical relationships, then you have a reason to move to the second planned phase of examining the charts. If you don't find anything, phase II is a non-starter.

He then notes

Because the findings of the first phase were not replicated in the second phase, the perception of the study changed from a positive to a neutral study. Surprisingly, however, the study is being interpreted now as negative by many, including the antivaccine lobbyists. The article does not state that we found evidence against an association, as a negative study would. It does state, on the contrary, that additional study is recommended, which is the conclusion to which a neutral study must come.

Perhaps you don't want to take Verstraeten's word for it because he went to work for Big Pharma. Those who oppose vaccines often rely on the US Congress, for better or for worse, to make their arguments. So, here's a link to the findings of the Senate Committee on Health, Education, Labor and Pensions from their 2007 investigation into allegations that the CDC used Simpsonwood to cover up a thimerosal-autism link and that Verstraeten manipulated data.

Here's what the Senate committee concluded regarding allegations against Verstraeten:

Allegation # 2: The Centers for Disease Control (CDC) convened the Simpsonwood Conference to cover up the finding that thimerosal causes autism.
Findings: The allegation is not substantiated. ... Instead of hiding the data or restricting access to it, CDC distributed it, often to individuals who had never seen it before, and solicited outside opinion regarding how to interpret it. The transcript of these discussions was made available to the public. The data was also discussed at the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices, a public forum held on June 21 and 22, 2000. Simpsonwood participants generally agreed that the VSD data set was weak, it was difficult to assess causality, and further study and investigation were warranted.

Not exactly the behavior of government scientists bent on a cover-up.

The committee also found that

Allegation # 3: Dr. Thomas Verstraeten, MD, MSc, was pressured into changing his research position regarding a causal link between thimerosal and autism.
Finding: The allegation is not substantiated. ... HELP Committee staff interviewed Dr. Verstraeten with regard to his findings and his participation in the Simpsonwood Conference. ...Review of the phases of Dr. Verstraeten's study, "Safety of Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines: A Two-Phased Study of Computerized Health Maintenance Organization Databases," and examination of his voluntary response to Committee questions during his interview reflect that his intention was always to conduct a two-phase study. ... there is no evidence that GlaxoSmithKline hired Dr. Verstraeten for the purpose of pressuring him to manipulate his data on a causal link between thimerosal and autism. ... Dr. Verstraeten was working in the United States at CDC on a temporary visa. Near the completion of his tenure with CDC, he began searching for employment in his native country and found employment with GlaxoSmithKline where he continues to be employed.

Is The CDC Hiding Data About Mercury, Vaccines, And Autism? - Forbes

Thimerosal
Information about Thimerosal

Since 2001, with the exception of some influenza (flu) vaccines, thimerosal is not used as a preservative in routinely recommended childhood vaccines.

Thimerosal is a mercury-containing preservative used in some vaccines and other products since the 1930's. There is no convincing evidence of harm caused by the low doses of thimerosal in vaccines, except for minor reactions like redness and swelling at the injection site. However, in July 1999, the Public Health Service agencies, the American Academy of Pediatrics, and vaccine manufacturers agreed that thimerosal should be reduced or eliminated in vaccines as a precautionary measure.

Information about Thimerosal

Since 2001, with the exception of some influenza (flu) vaccines, thimerosal is not used as a preservative in routinely recommended childhood vaccines.

CDC - Thimerosal - Vaccine Safety

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Floyd Fisher

10 years ago

Originally Posted by joe golfer

Some feel anti-vaccination supporters are to blame for outbreaks of measles in places like NYC.

Thanks, Anti-Vaxxers. You Just Brought Back Measles in NYC. - The Daily Beast

Here's what I don't get about this stuff.

The only person the vaccine works for is the person that got vaccinated.

Personally, I'm big on vaccinations, and I get mine...so I could give two flying ****s if Measles is back or not...I know for a fact I won't get it.

Why all this hate? You're vaccinated, and you won't get it. You're not vaccinated, sucks to be you when you get it.

Daily Beast needs to shut up and go make sure they are vaccinated if they are worried about it....being a bunch of Nazi's and bringing down a bunch of unwarranted hate on others is just plain irresponsible on their part.

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Floyd Fisher

Here's what I don't get about this stuff.

The only person the vaccine works for is the person that got vaccinated.

Personally, I'm big on vaccinations, and I get mine...so I could give two flying ****s if Measles is back or not...I know for a fact I won't get it.

Why all this hate? You're vaccinated, and you won't get it. You're not vaccinated, sucks to be you when you get it.

Daily Beast needs to shut up and go make sure they are vaccinated if they are worried about it....being a bunch of Nazi's and bringing down a bunch of unwarranted hate on others is just plain irresponsible on their part.

If I were you, I would be CAREFUL about being exposed! HECK, I HAD german measles. I should have a far better chance than YOU to not get it again, but I won't take my chances.

As for unwarranted hate? WHO are they to hate? Are they to hate the companies that ENGINEER deadly viruses! Are they to hate the companies that make vaccines for illnesses that MIGHT have been man made, and profit while providing poisoned and potentially biologically contaminated vaccines? Are they to hate those that DON'T get vaccines, as illustrated here?

And HERE is a battle cry for you! HEALTH CARE WORKER..... RESTRICT THY SPITTLE AND WASH THY HANDS AND CLEAN THY AREA, UTENSILS, AND THAT OF THY CHARGE BEFORE DEMANDING ONE GET A SHOT!

Steve

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seasoned

10 years ago

Floyd IS right. Many viruses simply HIDE! HPV, HSV, HIV, and related viruses are among those KNOWN to hide. I LOVE the idea of chicken pox, one apparently related to HSV. I got chicken pox when I was a little kid. WELL, as I said, it HIDES! NOW, they have a new "vaccine" for SHINGLES! SHINGLES is what they call the symptoms after it comes out of hiding DECADES later. With all this hiding, it likely can mutate.

HECK, I heard some garbage DECADES ago about them finding a cure for HIV. Well DUH! They did that like 100 years earlier! They didn't bother to check it in the world. When they did, SURPRISE, it didn't work! The same is true of the common cold, and many other viruses.

Steve

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Jason Kanigan

10 years ago

First it was Bringing Sexy Back, now it's Measles?!

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill

People should be able to vaccinate or not vaccinate their children as they see fit.

I don't believe there's any federal law that prohibits parents from being irresponsible and not vaccinating. State laws vary on it, but most require some vaccinations. You do believe in states' rights don't you?

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill

Sure. I just don't believe they should be telling people how to raise their children.

I'm funny that way.

You do believe in familial, parental and individual rights, don't you?

Not when irresponsible decisions endanger public health. I don't think government has any business in who screws who ... unless one of the parties is HIV infected, as another example. I don't care to have someone else's children infecting mine or other people who cannot have vaccinations like pregnant women, people with cancer, children too young to be vaccinated, old people, etc.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill

Ah, but we don't know that it does endanger public health, do we? We just have a few establishment types prattling on about something that may or may not be so.

No. I believe that the diseases we are vaccinated against are a threat to public health. They were very much so before vaccination became the norm. Maybe you never pushed a friend from class to class in a wheelchair in school, but I have. Her legs were little useless twigs due to polio. I've already cited the death figures from those diseases commonly vaccinated for.

It's just a small group that is prattling on about the evils of vaccinations, and many of them persuaded by a fraud who was in it for profit.

http://curiosity.discovery.com/quest...ed-by-vaccines
http://www.historyofvaccines.org/con...se-eradication
http://www.unicef.org/pon96/hevaccin.htm

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/whatifstop.htm

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill

Do vaccinations do more harm than good? I don't know. There are intelligent people who believe they do. So, with them believing that, do you still believe the state should kick their doors in to vaccinate their children, or would you just put them in a cage for a while? I haven't seen anyone advocating for shooting those vile anti-vaxxers, but when you send armed government forces in to protect the citizenry from itself, the possibility certainly exists.

lol ... now there's a threat of armed feds shooting people for not getting vaccines.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill

That's exactly what happens when social policy is encoded into law. People are given the options to obey, be fined, be incarcerated or be killed.

That's really all the government, federal, state or local, can do, right?

Yep ... the state cops are on a rampage and they're gunning for unvaccinated children.

This is just pathetically amusing :rolleyes:

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MissTerraK 10 years ago

Then there are parents like me that didn't vaccinate their children but not for lack of attempting to.

My first child, after receiving vaccinations cried for 24 hours straight all the while with a rising temperature that topped off at 105, even though the hospital was trying everything to prevent the fever from climbing once it hit 103 and couldn't. My baby was diagnosed with spinal meningitis although a spinal tap was not confirming. After 3 days of not being able to get the fever to lower, in ICU, a pediatric specialist was called in who diagnosed the whole thing as allergic reactions and advised no more vaccinations.

Then came my second child and I was advised to get the vaccinations. Hello same scenario. Goodbye vaccinations.

Then came my third child and I was advised not to vaccinate. All went well until he was in the fourth grade and misstepped on the metal bleachers on field day and ripped the skin off of his shin down to the bone. At the hospital, they gave him a tetanus shot before they would do surgery and skin grafts. Low and behold, the exact same scenario except with him being older he was complaining of terrible headaches and actually punching himself in the head explaining it helped his headache!

They advised he get the other vaccinations thinking it was only the Tetanus. Nope! The same thing happened to him with the MMR - Measles/Mumps/Rubella.

None of my grandchildren have been vaccinated.

But let me tell you what a pain in the butt it was for me and now for my daughters to get the children into school without them. We have to have extensive medical diagnosis and documentation for them to be able to attend.

Talk about a horrendous nightmare!! And I'll tell you what, I'll be ready to administer a slap down to anyone who accuses them of being a part of bringing on an epidemic of the diseases they weren't able to get vaccinations for!!!

Terra
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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Alexa turned me on to a discussion thread on this topic. World of difference between the two. I'd forgotten about the whole Wakefield thing.

Andrew Wakefield's role unmasked

But as journalists queued to report on parents' fears, Brian Deer was assigned to investigate the crisis, and unearthed a scandal of astounding proportions. He discovered that, far from being based on any findings, the public alarm had no scientific basis whatsoever. Rather, Wakefield had been secretly payrolled to create evidence against the shot and, while planning extraordinary business schemes meant to profit from the scare, he had concealed, misreported and changed information about the children to rig the results published in the journal.

Before Deer’s inquiries, Wakefield had appeared to all the world to be an independent, if controversial, researcher. Tall and square-headed, with hooded eyes and a booming voice, he was the son of doctors (a neurologist and a family practitioner), had grown up in Bath, a prosperous west-of-England spa town, and joined the Royal Free in November 1988 after training in Toronto, Canada. His demeanour was languid - he was privately educated - and, born in 1956, he was a lingering example of the presumed honour of the upper middle class.

But Deer's investigation - nominated in February 2011 for two British Press Awards - discovered that, while Wakefield held himself out to be a dispassionate scientist, two years before the Lancet paper was published - and before any of the 12 children were even referred to the hospital - he had been hired to attack MMR by a lawyer, Richard Barr: a jobbing solicitor in the small eastern English town of King's Lynn, who hoped to raise a speculative class action lawsuit against drug companies which manufactured the triple shot.

Unlike expert witnesses, who give professional advice and opinions, Wakefield had negotiated an unprecedented contract with Barr, then aged 48, to conduct clinical and scientific research. The goal was to find evidence of what the two men claimed to be a "new syndrome", intended to be the centrepiece of (later failed) litigation on behalf of an eventual 1,600 British families, recruited through media stories. This publicly undisclosed role for Wakefield created the grossest conflict of interest, and the exposure of it by Deer, in February 2004, led to public uproar in Britain, the retraction of the Lancet report's conclusions section, and, from July 2007 to May 2010, the longest-ever professional misconduct hearing by the UK's General Medical Council (GMC).

Barr [audio] paid the doctor with money from the UK legal aid fund: run by the government to give poorer people access to justice. Wakefield charged at the extraordinary rate of £150 an hour - billed through a company of his wife's - eventually totalling, for generic work alone, what the UK Legal Services Commission, pressed by Deer under the freedom of information act, said was £435,643 (then about $750,000 US), plus expenses. These hourly fees - revealed in The Sunday Times in December 2006 - gave the doctor a direct personal, but undeclared, financial interest in his research claims: totalling more than eight times his reported annual salary and creating an incentive not only for him to launch the alarm, but to keep it going for as long as possible.

In addition to the personal payments, Wakefield was awarded an initial £55,000, which he had applied for in June 1996, but which, like the hourly fees, he never declared to the Lancet as he should have done, for the express purpose of conducting the research later submitted to the journal. This start-up funding was part of a staggering £18m of taxpayers' money eventually shared among a small group of doctors and lawyers, working under Barr's and Wakefield's direction, trying to prove that MMR caused the previously unheard-of "syndrome". Yet more surprising, Wakefield had asserted the existence of such a syndrome - which allegedly included what he would dub "autistic enterocolitis" - before he performed the research which purportedly discovered it.

This Barr-Wakefield deal was the foundation of the vaccine crisis, both in Britain and throughout the world. "I have mentioned to you before that the prime objective is to produce unassailable evidence in court so as to convince a court that these vaccines are dangerous," the lawyer reminded the doctor in a confidential letter, six months before the Lancet report.

Andrew Wakefield - the fraud investigation

Retracted autism study an 'elaborate fraud,' British journal finds - CNN.com

Andrew Wakefield - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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seasoned

10 years ago

Claude,

It IS a proven, and admitted fact, that vaccines are often *****INFERIOR***** to normal disease immunity! So WHY do governments, or people, accept INFERIOR immunity, which means you may STILL catch the disease, and after a certain period could even DIE from such exposure? Because the likelyhood is that, if you DO catch it, it won't be as bad. SO, first of all, they DON'T give you a better immunity to what they target. It is WORSE!

SECOND, they USUALLY don't make you any more resistant to OTHER diseases! at least in theory, you won't be immune to even all they innoculate you against. Perhaps THIS is why a flu shot is not a FLU shot, but a selected mix of PREDICTED POSSIBLE strains. And THAT, though possibly also because of the limited strength, is why they want you to get a shot EVERY YEAR! Next years likely will NOT be the same as THIS years!

CDC - Selecting Viruses for the Seasonal Influenza Vaccine | Seasonal Influenza (Flu)

The seasonal influenza vaccine is designed to protect against the influenza viruses research indicates are most likely to spread and cause illness among people during the upcoming flu season. Flu viruses are constantly changing, so the vaccine is updated each year based on which influenza viruses are making people sick, how those viruses are spreading, and how well the previous season's vaccine protects against those viruses.

That is from the US CDC!!!!!

From NPR:

Lifelong Immunity? With Vaccines, It Depends : NPR

But he still doesn't know why some vaccines work well -- and some, not so much.

"There are at least two systems in the immune function," Katz says. "One is called antibody, and the other is called cell-mediated immunity. And with most infections, we'd like to have both of those active."

The human body uses those immune systems to fight off viruses and bacteria. Once those systems are activated, they can remember the bugs and stand ready to fend off new infections for years -- or even for a lifetime.

"We think that's what we've achieved with measles," Katz says. "We think that's what we've achieved with polio."

But other vaccines, whether because of the nature of the microbe or the vaccine itself, don't confer lifetime immunity. The vaccine for pertussis, or whooping cough, is one of those.

"We're seeing right now in California, where they're having a large outbreak, that a number of cases are individuals who've received the vaccine," Katz says.

Giving Some Vaccines A Boost

When vaccines don't work so well, the solution is to give multiple doses, or boosters. Children now get a pertussis booster around age 12, and adults are being told to get a pertussis booster every 10 years. That's especially important if they are around babies who are too young to be fully protected by vaccines.

Steve

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whateverpedia

10 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Claude,

It IS a proven, and admitted fact

Proven and admitted by whom?

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Claude Whitacre 10 years ago

Originally Posted by whateverpedia

Proven and admitted by whom?

For The Love Of God! Don't Ever Ask Him To Explain A Post!
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- whateverpedia 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre
  
  For The Love Of God! Don't Ever Ask Him To Explain A Post!
  
  Oops. I forgot.
  
  Mea culpa maximus.
  
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nesterdwarf

10 years ago

This thread illustrates, almost painfully, why you shouldn't look to the internet 'experts' or celebrities for answers to medical questions. The ignorance and paranoia astounds and abounds.

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HeySal

10 years ago

Originally Posted by nesterdwarf

This thread illustrates, almost painfully, why you shouldn't look to the internet 'experts' or celebrities for answers to medical questions. The ignorance and paranoia astounds and abounds.

Yep - I had to leave the thread it made me so furious.

Anyway - I have one thing to add to this and then I'm out for good.

Be careful what you believe. You don't have room to make a mistake.

Remember all those antibiotics that were being jammed down our throats? Do you know the FDA has re-approved feeding them in tons (literally per day - tons on tons) to cattle even though they know for a 100% fact that they have made the bacteria morph and we now have drug resistant strains?

Go get your vaccines - all of them. When those viruses morph, it won't be one vaccinated person's fault you don't have an immune system to fight them but your doctor's. There's a high chance the person shooting you full of them has not had them and does not give them to their children.

If you have not studied disinformation, do not presume you know it when you see it. There are books out that are excellent for learning to understand the medical system we are under now. I suggest starting with 2 - one is an old one called "10,000 Guinea Pigs" - don't remember who it's by and it's out of print but some libraries and used bookstores can get copies. The second is called "The Cancer Cure that Worked: 50 Years of Suppression" by Barry Lynes. It tells all the pathways used to suppress medical information to keep the public buying into a pharmeceutically controlled medical complex.

Then start asking yourself questions about things like the point I just brought up above. What happens when the viruses you are vaccinated for mutate? It takes time to come up with new ones, and those viruses can go the same route as bacteria - unstoppable via pharmaceutical means. Start figuring out how to strengthen your own body instead of just figuring that medical science is always there to help you. People do that with cell phones, too. They go out into the wilderness thinking they are "protected" because they can make a call. It never occurs to them in a real emergency, the people they need help from might not be able to get to them.

Use your heads and think long and hard and do the research, because in the long run the only ones that really give a rat about what happens to you is your family.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Yep - I had to leave the thread it made me so furious.

Anyway - I have one thing to add to this and then I'm out for good.

Be careful what you believe. You don't have room to make a mistake.

I'll second that. Be careful what and who you believe. Your children could suffer a great deal if this type of misinformation were rampant. Believe zealots with an agenda or believe statistics and real research. The diseases that we ordinarily vaccinate children for are nearly gone in the developed world, but they could come back if people swallow this line of bull.

This whole movement was started in the US when a fraud with a profit motive falsified research to make money on this. He and his single fraudulent study has long been discredited and yet there are still people who swallow his information hook, line and sinker.

Literally millions of lives have been saved due to these childhood vaccinations.

Andrew Wakefield - the fraud investigation

Retracted autism study an 'elaborate fraud,' British journal finds - CNN.com

Andrew Wakefield - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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HeySal

10 years ago

It's interesting that a school was just closed due to mumps. People were screaming about people who aren't vaccinated................what they didn't tell people was that the only people who got the mumps were vaccinated for it.

We used to get a few vaccines. I had one against TB. Now they have 37 vaccines. Really? 37? How much mercury or thermasol do you think a child's body can take? At the point they are shooting this much poison in you, you have to start thinking instead of being worried about every illness around the corner. The cancer that vagisil is supposed to stop infects fewer women that than vaccines are doing major harm to. So much so that they are pulling the vaccine. And people can argue about vaccines causing autism all they want. The box that they come in actually has autism as one of the side effects........if it's right on the box, how can you shake your head and say that it's false. When you are getting vaccines for things that are rarely fatal if caught, or getting vaccines that are turning up more very disastrous side effects than people that would have been effected by the disease itself, you lose your edge to call anyone else stupid for not doing what YOU think - not what you know, what you think, yes.............YOU who have no more medical knowledge than those you are calling stupid, and very possibly less in some cases.

Also consider this - some viruses mutate so damned fast that your vaccine does nothing but fill you full of poisonous chemicals. That's smart, huh. Okay.

Maybe if they just gave two or three vaccines like they used to it wouldn't be so bad. When you want to force 37 vaccines down people's throats, vaccines that kill the natural immune system, that's not so all intelligent as you may think it is. There's a huge difference between immunity and an immune system.

I'm sick of people who think that they think they are so smart they can dictate how other people live. If you are afraid of these diseases, you go get vaccinated and leave me the hell alone. You will be protected and I will have my own life. Those viruses you are scared shitless of will come back whether the world is vaccinated or not.

Dr. Blaylock is one of the most respected Neurosurgeons in the country. This is what he has to say. Instead of listening to a bunch of hysterical doctor addicts and a meme from facebook - let's listen to the doctor, shall we?

How Vaccines Harm Child Brain Development - Dr...

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

We used to get a few vaccines. I had one against TB. Now they have 37 vaccines. Really? 37? How much mercury or thermasol do you think a child's body can take? At the point they are shooting this much poison in you, you have to start thinking instead of being worried about every illness around the corner. The cancer that vagisil is supposed to stop infects fewer women that than vaccines are doing major harm to. So much so that they are pulling the vaccine.

Citation please. I found no news on pulling the HPV vaccine and I assume that's what you meant (Vagisil is a personal hygiene product).

Originally Posted by HeySal

When you are getting vaccines for things that are rarely fatal if caught, or getting vaccines that are turning up more very disastrous side effects than people that would have been effected by the disease itself, you lose your edge to call anyone else stupid for not doing what YOU think - not what you know, what you think, yes.............YOU who have no more medical knowledge than those you are calling stupid, and very possibly less in some cases.

Many people have died from the diseases that are commonly vaccinated against. They rarely die now since 80% of the world receive vaccinations against them. The numbers of death are cited above and many places.

Originally Posted by HeySal

I'm sick of people who think that they think they are so smart they can dictate how other people live. If you are afraid of these diseases, you go get vaccinated and leave me the hell alone.

Is someone assaulting you trying to give you vaccinations?

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Cleaner44

10 years ago

Humans should have the freedom to choose to inject chemicals into their veins or not do so. The state should not be forcing people to inject vaccines or heroin or anything else. It is a personal decision and that is all that matters. People should have the liberty to make mistakes, whether that is means vaccinating or not vaccinating.

If the "vaxers" are mad at the "anti-vaxers" then I guess they just need to get over it, because the alternative is state force and that is not acceptable. There is no right to be inject others with chemicals. Freedom comes with risk and measles are a risk of a free society. I suggest the "vaxers" come to grips with freedom and liberty because the alternative of the state forcing vaccines is a much more dangerous alternative than any measles outbreak.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Cleaner44

Humans should have the freedom to choose to inject chemicals into their veins or not do so. The state should not be forcing people to inject vaccines or heroin or anything else.

No one is forcing anyone to do any such thing. Don't vaccinate your children and homeschool them when the public schools won't let them in. Your choice entirely.

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Cleaner44

10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

No one is forcing anyone to do any such thing. Don't vaccinate your children and homeschool them when the public schools won't let them in. Your choice entirely.

Unfortunately there are those that do advocate forced vaccinations.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Cleaner44

Unfortunately there are those that do advocate forced vaccinations.

There are those that advocate just about anything under the sun, but that doesn't make it reality.

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HeySal

10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

There are those that advocate just about anything under the sun, but that doesn't make it reality.

But when a corporation can spew enough propaganda to make enough people advocate loudly enough, sometimes they get to see it made a reality. It's illegal not to vaccinate a dog for rabies, yet dogs get adverse effects, too. It's also a fact that the dog is immune for life after just so many of those vaccines - the rest are industry income and nothing but. Since the shots are for public safety (and animal welfare), if someone has a dog that's had enough of them gets cited for not having the shots, they can still prove immunity, so the enforced repetition of the shots after the immunity is built is just a ruse. When people get scared enough, they can be fooled into spending a lot of unnecessary money and taking a lot of unnecessary risks. If people would take a browse through the average doctor's college curriculums, they'd be a lot more likely to do their own research before placing the medical community in the position of gods.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

But when a corporation can spew enough propaganda to make enough people advocate loudly enough, sometimes they get to see it made a reality. It's illegal not to vaccinate a dog for rabies, yet dogs get adverse effects, too. It's also a fact that the dog is immune for life after just so many of those vaccines - the rest are industry income and nothing but. Since the shots are for public safety (and animal welfare), if someone has a dog that's had enough of them gets cited for not having the shots, they can still prove immunity, so the enforced repetition of the shots after the immunity is built is just a ruse. When people get scared enough, they can be fooled into spending a lot of unnecessary money and taking a lot of unnecessary risks. If people would take a browse through the average doctor's college curriculums, they'd be a lot more likely to do their own research before placing the medical community in the position of gods.

Corporations and just regular people can spew propaganda. Like saying that immunizations turn people into carriers, rather than the truth ... they turn people into people who are immune to the disease they were vaccinated for. I did do my own research on that.

Vaccines and your health : Harvard Health Publications - Harvard Health Publications

I know ... it's just Harvard. Who's going to believe them? As for dog vaccinations, I could care less about them. The only time I get them is when I have to put a dog in the vet for overnight or hospitalization care, which is rare. Haven't been arrested yet.

But yeah, when people get scared enough, they take unnecessary risks. Like the fear mongering over vaccinations ... making people to stop protecting their children from horrendous diseases.

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HeySal

10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Corporations and just regular people can spew propaganda. Like saying that immunizations turn people into carriers, rather than the truth ... they turn people into people who are immune to the disease they were vaccinated for. I did do my own research on that.

Vaccines and your health : Harvard Health Publications - Harvard Health Publications

I know ... it's just Harvard. Who's going to believe them? As for dog vaccinations, I could care less about them. The only time I get them is when I have to put a dog in the vet for overnight or hospitalization care, which is rare. Haven't been arrested yet.

But yeah, when people get scared enough, they take unnecessary risks. Like the fear mongering over vaccinations ... making people to stop protecting their children from horrendous diseases.

So I guess I'm expected to dig up all the research on Pub med that contradicts the stuff that Harvard is making public, huh? I'm not going to do it once again. This kind of silliness eats too much time. Information is out there for people to find and piece together.

If you look at raw research it never looks the same as what we get broadcast to the public. You look at any of those studying before editing for public and they aren't the same. Why? Follow the money. Check out how much money Harvard gets from pharmaceutical companies for publishing these kinds of "study results". Do you expect them to give up that kind of funding for your kids? Really?

Around 160,000 people are killed needlessly by pharmaceuticals every year. There's also about 100 mil dead people who wished they hadn't allowed their govs to disarm them. But we're special. Our gov cares about us. Go to pub med and do some studying on raw studies that didn't get edited and published to the public. You're in for a surprise and it doesn't matter much WHAT area of medicine you are researching. Then look at funding behind every one of the edited and published studies. Nothing else I or anyone else says is going to make anything to do with the medical industrial complex clear to you. Nothing else will be a guarantee that you are not listening to propaganda, no matter what the subject. I've done my research. There's nothing you can say that I don't find highly misinformed. Sorry. I don't like info this important tainted by third party whims, so I go to the sources.

Claude - immunity and an immune system are two different things. You are trying to correlate them into the same thing. They are not.

I'm ending this conversation for me. As far as I am concerned I am a free person and it's my choice whether to vaccinate. If that scares you, you are free to get vaccinated and then I'm not a threat to you in any way shape or form. It's really that easy. For me it will be a matter to watch out for vaccinated people during an outbreak because despite 3rd party propaganda, I've read enough actual studies to know where the risk lies for my own health.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill

No, keep the vaccinated kids out of public school. Once again, you advocate force to get what you want. Surely, you can see that.

Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill

Keeping children from school is undoubtedly coercion.

Fortunately there are state laws so that the nutbags don't dictate what the majority wants. The majority of parents want their children immunized.

You're all for homeschooling ... I believe you made disparaging comments about public schools and said that the parents duty is to educate their children so quit beefing about what public school systems do.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill

I know you probably already know this, as you do everything else, but the state has a responsibility to educate all children up to a certain age, not just the ones who meet your high standards. So, if the state wants to send private tutors out to the homes of those who do not conform to your beliefs on vaccination, I'm all for it.

Again, I'm sure that you already know , as you know everything else, that my personal opinions on public education have nothing to do with the lawful responsibilities of the public schools.

Of course the fact that I don't care for public education means that unvaccinated children should not be allowed in public schools. How could it be otherwise?

I am awed by your acumen.

And I am in awe of yours. They have made laws that say that they will not allow unvaccinated children to attend without documentation that they cannot take the vaccines. Don't like it, use your considerable pull and change the law. By law, they are not responsible to educate unvaccinated children in the interest of public health.

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Kay King

10 years ago

Logic is vastly over-rated in the decision making process.

Huh? Did you just say that?

False premises can lead to true conclusions

If research data is flawed, conclusions are not reliable. That's the basis of scientific protocol.

You can choose to ignore logic and facts and proof - we do it all the time in everything from our diet to how we work and live.

No one believes tobacco is good for you - but people choose to smoke.
No one thinks obesity is a healthy choice - but folks pull into fast food lines.
We know exercise makes us healthier- but we don't enjoy it so we avoid it.

Those are choices we make every day - in opposition to logic.

We don't usually make up 'facts' to convince other people to start smoking or overeat, etc. That's where this thread's argument goes off the road to me.

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dave147

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Huh? Did you just say that?

If research data is flawed, conclusions are not reliable. That's the basis of scientific protocol.

You can choose to ignore logic and facts and proof - we do it all the time in everything from our diet to how we work and live.

No one believes tobacco is good for you - but people choose to smoke.
No one thinks obesity is a healthy choice - but folks pull into fast food lines.
We know exercise makes us healthier- but we don't enjoy it so we avoid it.

Those are choices we make every day - in opposition to logic.

We don't usually make up 'facts' to convince other people to start smoking or overeat, etc. That's where this thread's argument goes off the road to me.

We certainly do...

No one believes mercury is good for you - but people continue to get their mercury shots

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seasoned

10 years ago

Some of those problems, like diptheria, are due to "society"! Most were NOT really cured by vaccinations, but by improving "society". Want proof? Large parts of mexico have the problems the US had, and Americans going down there succumb the same way. And HEY, they ENCOURAGE people to get diseases like hepatitis and encephalitis.

Terra's statement made me remember ANOTHER argument. There is a disease that apparently is NOT all that rare. They CLAIM it is, but look hard enough and a lot of injections have fine print against it.

CDC - Guillain-Barré Syndrome (GBS) | Seasonal Influenza (Flu)

BTW young kids catch it also.

What causes GBS?
Many things can cause GBS; about two-thirds of people who develop GBS symptoms do so several days or weeks after they have been sick with diarrhea or a respiratory illness. Infection with the bacterium Campylobacter jejuni is one of the most common risk factors for GBS. People also can develop GBS after having the flu or other infections (such as cytomegalovirus and Epstein Barr virus). On very rare occasions, they may develop GBS in the days or weeks after getting a vaccination.
Who is at risk for developing GBS?
Anyone can develop GBS; however, it is more common among older adults. The incidence of GBS increases with age, and people older than 50 years are at greatest risk for developing GBS.

Steve

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HeySal

10 years ago

Susan - yes I saw the meme. Not real impressive.

FIrst off - I never said "NO" vaccines. I've had 2 myself. Polio and small pox - both illnesses which have very major consequences to major percentages of people who catch them, and high contangion during epidemics. What I'm saying is that people are going crazy over vaccinating for everything and anything to the point where they are taking major risks to their childrens brains over things that were very unlikely to be a risk to them in the first place.

Chicken pox? 4 mil did get chix pox. Only 100 to 150 die from them. What percent is 150 of 315 mil? I can give you this hint....it's a lower percent than people who have life altering brain damage from the vaccine.

20,000 people do not die of flu. They die of pneumonia and such that are lumped into flu statitistics - usually from people taking aspirin while they are just laying around because it produces liquid in the lungs. The Spanish Lady that "killed" so many in 1918, didn't actually kill them - pneumonia from the flu did, and it was when aspirin was new on the market and actually prescribed wrongfully for flu. Um.............why would the medical community vaccinate for flu when they could give ascorbic acid infusions to people with the flu and it would actually cure it completely? You have to ASK for these infusions and they are most often not given. Figure out that one. Flu vaccines are major money for pharms and of more risk than good. Many people who have flu vaccines suffer from the flu afterwards anyway. Flu mutates faster than they can make vaccines for it. Why even bother? If you get the flu, just tank on the ascorbic acid for cripes sakes.

Tetnas - really? only 1/10th of a percent of people ever get that and you want 315 million people to take risks dosing themselves with thermasol, mercury, and formeldahyede over it. Sweet. I can't even believe they'd give a tetnus vaccine unless someone cuts themselves pretty badly.

Congental Reubella - only 152 people in 315,000,000?

Okay - consider this. The Journal of the AMA says that 80% of kids need to be vaccinated to completely wipe out a disease. We are above those figures, yet the diseases persist. That is becasue vacinnating does not keep someone from carrying the virus. So instead of working on developing a population with strong immune systems, we are destroying the immune systems so people are getting illnesses they would not have normally succumbed to. And wiping out the disease? You have only created a population of carriers. Once that virus mutates, you've got a very scary mess on your hands. It's not the non-vaccinated people we have to worry about keeping the viruses coming back.

We know herd immunity is a myth, but let’s just keep pretending herd immunity is real….

Some estimate that only 2% of the population does not vaccinate their children. Are we really trying to blame outbreaks on the “people who refuse to vaccinate their children”? Who seriously believes this?

“It is preposterous to think that a child who is vaccinated no longer carries the bacteria or the viruses that they have been vaccinated against. If, in fact, children are vaccinated, then why are parents and public health authorities afraid that non-vaccinated children are somehow carrying something that their children are not, when they should feel comfortable that their children are vaccinated? You can’t have it both ways…

You can’t vaccinate believing that your children are protected and then feel that your children are not protected because somehow, some non-vaccinated child is carrying some secret organism that no-one else is carrying. You can’t have it both ways. It just doesn’t make any sense”.
–Dr. Palevsky, board certified pediatrician

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MissTerraK

10 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Susan - yes I saw the meme. Not real impressive.

FIrst off - I never said "NO" vaccines. I've had 2 myself. Polio and small pox - both illnesses which have very major consequences to major percentages of people who catch them, and high contangion during epidemics. What I'm saying is that people are going crazy over vaccinating for everything and anything to the point where they are taking major risks to their childrens brains over things that were very unlikely to be a risk to them in the first place...

That's it, Sal. I didn't watch the video, but the specialist said these vaccinations were causing reactions including inflammation in my children's brains! Dangerous indeed!

As I said before, none of my grand kids have had any vaccinations as the doctor thinks it is genetic. I myself have had only three vaccinations and my father was diagnosed as allergic to Tetanus as well my brother.

Terra

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Susan - yes I saw the meme. Not real impressive.

What meme? Don't know anything about a meme.

Originally Posted by HeySal

FIrst off - I never said "NO" vaccines. I've had 2 myself. Polio and small pox - both illnesses which have very major consequences to major percentages of people who catch them, and high contangion during epidemics. What I'm saying is that people are going crazy over vaccinating for everything and anything to the point where they are taking major risks to their childrens brains over things that were very unlikely to be a risk to them in the first place.

Chicken pox? 4 mil did get chix pox. Only 100 to 150 die from them. What percent is 150 of 315 mil? I can give you this hint....it's a lower percent than people who have life altering brain damage from the vaccine.

20,000 people do not die of flu. They die of pneumonia and such that are lumped into flu statitistics - usually from people taking aspirin while they are just laying around because it produces liquid in the lungs. The Spanish Lady that "killed" so many in 1918, didn't actually kill them - pneumonia from the flu did, and it was when aspirin was new on the market and actually prescribed wrongfully for flu. Um.............why would the medical community vaccinate for flu when they could give ascorbic acid infusions to people with the flu and it would actually cure it completely? You have to ASK for these infusions and they are most often not given. Figure out that one. Flu vaccines are major money for pharms and of more risk than good. Many people who have flu vaccines suffer from the flu afterwards anyway. Flu mutates faster than they can make vaccines for it. Why even bother? If you get the flu, just tank on the ascorbic acid for cripes sakes.

Tetnas - really? only 1/10th of a percent of people ever get that and you want 315 million people to take risks dosing themselves with thermasol, mercury, and formeldahyede over it. Sweet. I can't even believe they'd give a tetnus vaccine unless someone cuts themselves pretty badly.

Congental Reubella - only 152 people in 315,000,000?

Myself and my children all got polio, pertussis, MMR, smallpox (and that was eliminated with my last child because it's no longer a threat here). That's about it. None of us has ever had a flu vaccine. I had a tetanus shot once due to a bad cut with a rusty object. None of us ever had chicken pox vaccines. Those vaccines that we didn't ever get aren't required to attend school. The ones we choose not to get don't pose a significant threat to us. I'm aware that infants and old people are more prone to die from flu than other age groups, but none of us bother with it, so I am not advocating that people run out and get just any old vaccine that pops up in the market, but the basics have saved many lives.

Originally Posted by HeySal

Okay - consider this. The Journal of the AMA says that 80% of kids need to be vaccinated to completely wipe out a disease. We are above those figures, yet the diseases persist. That is becasue vacinnating does not keep someone from carrying the virus. So instead of working on developing a population with strong immune systems, we are destroying the immune systems so people are getting illnesses they would not have normally succumbed to. And wiping out the disease? You have only created a population of carriers. Once that virus mutates, you've got a very scary mess on your hands. It's not the non-vaccinated people we have to worry about keeping the viruses coming back.

Well, if that were true, then most of the unvaccinated people prior to the vaccines being available shouldn't have died because they would have developed their own immunities ... but they did in very large numbers. The major diseases covered by the basic run of childhood vaccinations have greatly decreased. Polio, smallpox, MMR are all but gone except in countries that don't vaccinate for these (with the exception of smallpox, which the WHO has declared eradicated).

So we'll just agree to disagree. You don't find vaccines beneficial, I find selected vaccines crucial to public health.

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seasoned

10 years ago

For the record, I have probably been vaccinated in 30% of the somewhat urgent cases. I have been vaccinated against polio small pox, rubella(though I got it), pertusis, whopping cough, etc...

But I do NOT trust today's government ONE BIT! They add poisons, claiming they HAVE to to preserve it. They actually ENCOURAGE looking the other way when people do things that not simply could, or are likely to, but *****HAVE***** caused DEATHS, so they can be contaminated!

And I DOUBT that ANY injection will cause autism with any frequency. Even those claiming it DOES claim that it happens with only young kids.

Steve

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nettiapina

10 years ago

Some time ago there was an outbreak of measles in a small school in Finland. They had to shut the place down temporarily. The disease doesn't really exist domestically and all the cases are brought from abroad. That place just happened to have too many anti-vaccine parents. I guess it was mostly due to the involvement of some special form of pedagogy and/or some brand of fundamentalist christian faith.

I have to admit that I was satisfied by the swift and unanimous response in the newspapers and social media. The anti-vaccination crowd got their ass handed to them, and rightly so. There's not much to talk about when the results for their little experiment were so clear.

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Kay King

10 years ago

If YOU don't want to be vaccinated - no problem. I don't care. Some children are allergic to vaccines - most tolerate them well.

Use your heads and think long and hard and do the research, because in the long run the only ones that really give a rat about what happens to you is your family.

I agree with that - and parents need to make the decision for their children based on INFORMATION...not DISinformation or MISinformation.

Don't get a tetanus shot for yourself if you don't want to. I get that. I don't get why people with no kids want to tell parents what they should do with their children.

What many who support vaccines are saying isn't that YOU must vaccinate your children - but that they don't want their children in school/camp, etc with kids who are not protected against childhood diseases. If you are willing to home school or you find a private school without restrictions - that's your choice.

So I guess I'm expected to dig up all the research on Pub med that contradicts the stuff that Harvard is making public, huh? I'm not going to do it once again. This kind of silliness eats too much time. Information is out there for people to find and piece together.

As opposed to the kind of silliness that makes claims of "fact" that is unproven and undocumented? Do it once again? How about do it once? The anti-vaccine crowd is proud of saying "studies show that..." but they don't list the studies and if you do find one of their studies you learn it was not done by scientific researchers or it doesn't conclude what the anti-vaccine people claim it does.

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

What I don't get is why people without children care so deeply about this....don't get your own tetanus shot if you don't want to. What people do with their children isn't a concern for you if you don't care whether people are vaccinated or not.

Well, in the US, we are now in the SAME risk group, so expect such SEEMINGLY out of place concern(That now is NOT out of place) to INCREASE!!!!!!

Steve

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kenmichaels

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

I agree with that - and parents need to make the decision for their children based on INFORMATION...not DISinformation or MISinformation.

Is it just me, or is it getting harder and harder to weed through it all
and find the real non agenda driven information?

My son is four ish now. The amount of reading and questions i had
and even answers to questions I never found answers to was
simply mind boggling.

Even asking different doctors got me different answers to the same questions.

To bad there is not a way to completely and utterly eradicate propaganda.

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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

Originally Posted by kenmichaels

Is it just me, or is it getting harder and harder to weed through it all
and find the real non agenda driven information?

My son is four ish now. The amount of reading and questions i had
and even answers to questions I never found answers to was
simply mind boggling.

Even asking different doctors got me different answers to the same questions.

To bad there is not a way to completely and utterly eradicate propaganda.

It isn't you. Political and religious websites can look very objective. Websites with a real agenda can look like a "fair and balanced" effort to provide News.

One thing I notice a lot ow is an article on a religous webite quote a scientist to promote their world view. They are usually taking the quote out of context, or just making it up. I've seen several quotes on this forum from scientists...that they never said. But they get posted, repeated, and accepted as legitimate.

Intelligent people are now reading well written articles that are not factual, and accepting them as authentic information, and not propaganda.

It's very hard sometimes to distinguish the fake from the real. Personally, I look at the structure of the argument. If it's disjointed in it's logic, or bases its premise on a "for example, if" scenario... I see the flaw and discount it.

But I wonder how many things I've read, and believed..that were just not so?

Because you can be incredibly convincing, and totally sincere..and just be wrong.

Originally Posted by nesterdwarf

This thread illustrates, almost painfully, why you shouldn't look to the internet 'experts' or celebrities for answers to medical questions. The ignorance and paranoia astounds and abounds.

I agree, and well said. I notice that everyone thinks you are agreeing with them...which I find funny.

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kenmichaels

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

It's very hard sometimes to distinguish the fake from the real. Personally, I look at the structure of the argument. If it's disjointed in it's logic, or bases its premise on a "for example, if" scenario... I see the flaw and discount it.
.

I do the same thing. Perhaps its not the best way to go about things,
but it works for me ... for now.

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

But I wonder how many things I've read, and believed..that were just not so?
.

I know I have been caught off guard a few times.

You know what angers me faster then anything ... stupidity.
Especially when it is my own. When ever i catch myself falling
for something ... my head just about explodes.

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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

Originally Posted by kenmichaels

I do the same thing.Perhaps its not the best way to go about things,

The reason I look for flaws in logic, is that a sound reasoning can still give you the wrong conclusion, if the facts are wrong in the first place.

But a faulty reasoning process, no matter how sound the underlying facts are, will produce an incorrect conclusion.

And I see a lot of faulty reasoning when talking about subjects like this.

That's why, even though my knowledge of vaccines is minimal, when I see gaping holes in an argument, I just don't accept it. I won't even bother to try to verify an argument unless it's structurally sound. It saves time.

It's the one real skill I have. I'm pretty much dull normal in every other area of thought.

I spent some time looking though this website, and reading a few articles. The editors are very well credentialed in this field. I see no agenda (other than public health), and I see no skewing of facts to create an outcome. Not foolproof, but most websites with agendas are pretty easy to spot.

One way is to read articles written by the website staff, that includes a few quotes by experts. But no articles by the experts themselves. Anyway, the link was from Kay.
Demographics of Unvaccinated Children - Immunization Science

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill

Logic is vastly over-rated in the decision making process. What is logical is often not moral, ethical and is often at odds with religious convictions.

The logical thing to do isn't always the right thing to do.

Oh, and the opposite is true, too. False premises can lead to true conclusions.

Well, other people's morals and ethics are highly overrated as well. Morals, ethics and religious convictions are divergent. You have yours, I have mine, and he and she has theirs, and I'm fairly happy not to be bound by other people's beliefs.

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sbucciarel Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill

You seem to have no compunctions about binding other people with your beliefs, though.

I actually don't care what you do or do not believe, as long as you don't impose it on me. I do not impose my beliefs on you. The State Law does. I am not a lawmaker. I'm a voter. I have opinions just like you. Are you saying that you can blather on about your beliefs in the forum and I can't?

I don't anticipate swaying you or anyone else with my opinions and you or anyone else most certainly will not sway me. So basically, it's called a discussion. Are you feeling coerced by a discussion?

One person claimed she was furious over this thread. Why? Because people don't buy her beliefs hook, line and sinker and have the audacity to provide differing opinions? Too bad if you don't like my opinions. I'll give them anyway.
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kenmichaels

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill

Oh, and the opposite is true, too. False premises can lead to true conclusions.

I see that with my little boy quite often. Most notably ...

We were in the middle of a storm. The tv goes out.
He said, daddy the lightning turned the tv off.

I said O yeah .... how?

His reply, the thunder came out of the clouds down the chimney
and across the floor.

When he does it i grin, when I witness educated adults do it ... I cringe.

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by kenmichaels

I see that with my little boy quite often. Most notably ...

We were in the middle of a storm. The tv goes out.
He said, daddy the lightning turned the tv off.

I said O yeah .... how?

His reply, the thunder came out of the clouds down the chimney
and across the floor.

When he does it i grin, when I witness educated adults do it ... I cringe.

I sometimes wonder how some kids come up with ideas. It IS interesting that, in a way, the lightning MIGHT have turned off the power to the tv or some transmitter, but how did he go from lightning to thunder? Where did the down the chimney and across the floor come?

I heard of one person that figured boats float because of a weight down the keel projecting from a boat. I guess he saw one too many sailboats that have them for stability.

Steve

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HN

Banned 10 years ago

[DELETED]

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by HN

1. Is it possible to create a new disease?

YEP, the've done it!

2. Is it possible to create a vaccine for that disease?
3. Would you make money selling those vaccines to scared people?
4. Can you find at least one person who would like to make billions killing people with vaccines?

YEP, THEY'VE DONE IT!

I COULDN'T BELIEVE WHO(the "World Health Organization") talking about the problems they had creating a bird flu tat could pass to humans, etc... on NPR. LATER, we end up with an epidemic! INCREDIBLE!

Have you seen the brands like ABIBAS, or REENOK? For some reason Chinese copy cats don't come up with a completely new and unknown brand, noone will buy that rubbish. But if you use a known brand for that rubbish, even with spelling errors, that's a whole different story. Same with vaccines, there were indeed ones that worked, so people still think all the vaccines are equally good. But when you run out of diseases, just create a new one and you can sell more vaccines. This way you also guarantee that no other company makes the vaccine before you have created it (more money for your comapany).

Ever see the film, the distinguished gentleman?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXL7XSW4xHA

He started running because, and with the materials, of a candidate that had a similar name, but died. The OTHER jeff johnson wasn't even black!

Final point. Is it true that it takes at least a year do develop and TEST a new vaccine? It is true that flu virus mutates every 6 months?

Apparently the mutation rate varies, and just because a virus mutates doesn't mean it will be ineffective. The first vaccine was COW POX! I mean WHO would care about THAT? A relatively restricted and harmless disease! But it was close enough to small pox that it prevented it!

Cowpox - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

By the time they get it, it's already useless. The only way how it could work is when you first get the people vaccinated and only after that spread the new virus. Get the point? So when they warn about a new virus, to me it sounds like: "We have created a new virus and will be spreading it shortly. We do have the vaccine and you can buy it from us." Do you doubt they'll be soon openly saying this?

Well, you are certainly right there. They DID create an HIV vaccine, but it only worked against the strain they created it with. They have created LOTS of flu vaccines, but they only work with THOSE strains. And YEAH, some flu vaccines contain a couple vaccines for the EXACT SAME FLU, but a different strain! FLU TYPE being like a ford fiesta, for example, and strain being like another year or with other options. COWPOX and SMALLPOX were close enough in how te portion that human immunity latches onto, but different enough to be considered slightly different families.

HECK, their reason for not having a vaccine for the common cold is that it mutates too rapidly.

Steve

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by GaryCarlyle

Vaccines seem to cause autism. the rise of Autism since the invention of vaccines is massive. I would rather have measles.

Thank you for the results of your very scientific study.

Originally Posted by HN

She also told me this. You've got to look at vaccines from the perspective of a businessman and answer these questions.

1. Is it possible to create a new disease?
2. Is it possible to create a vaccine for that disease?
3. Would you make money selling those vaccines to scared people?
4. Can you find at least one person who would like to make billions killing people with vaccines?

Ding Ding Ding Ding. Award for absolutely the best, wildest, craziest conspiracy theory ever. :rolleyes:

You should write the script to make a movie out of this one.

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HN

Banned 10 years ago

[DELETED]

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by HN

So there are people who would kill people for 5 grand, but there's noone who would create a virus to earn a billion bucks. What planet are you from?
Or are you indeed telling that people don't know how to create a virus?
Which of the 4 statements exactly don't you agree with?

I know I would do it (esp. if noone would suspect conspiracy) but only if I knew it would wipe out just the eaters and parasites and won't affect the farmers who actually produce the goods.

... carry on with your conspiracy theories. Doesn't even really dignify any meaningful response from anyone. If you've got some more, we'd love to hear them. You're very talented.

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HN

Banned 10 years ago

[DELETED]

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by HN

What conspiracy?

1. So it's not even theoretically possible to create a virus, biological or chemical weapons? (Sorry Saddam, we didn't know it, we wouldn't have bombed your country).
2. So it's not possible to create a vaccine? (Then why are you taking them?)
3. So you wouldn't make money selling vaccines? Susanne Klatten's net worth increased from 5 bio to 8 bio after the bird flu in Asia. In 2011 she had 16 billion.
4. Sorry I thought there were greedy people out there. Now I know there ain't any. Thanks for opening my eyes!

I should probably start another profitable business - selling truckloads of sand to people.
(Some love to hide their heads really deep)

Anything is theoretically possible. Give me your links to where this is being done now, please ... unless of course you just want to continue to tell us little fairie stories. We weren't really discussing outlandish theories that could possibly happen. We were discussing to vaccinate or not to vaccinate ... but go ahead ... attempt to add to the vaccination hysteria with outlandish and unproven theories. :rolleyes:

But ... hell yeah. Think I'll look into it

1. Create a virus ... check
2. Distribute said virus creating mass hysteria ... check
3. Spend the years of research and development required to get a vaccine for virus passed by FDA... check
4. Manufacture vaccine and distribute ... check

I'm seriously looking into this for my next business venture. Checking out the vaccine approval process now. I think I can do this
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/resdev/test-approve.htm

http://www.fda.gov/biologicsbloodvac.../ucm133096.htm

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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Anything is theoretically possible. Give me your links to where this is being done now, please ... unless of course you just want to continue to tell us little fairie stories. We weren't really discussing outlandish theories that could possibly happen. We were discussing to vaccinate or not to vaccinate ... but go ahead ... attempt to add to the vaccination hysteria with outlandish and unproven theories. :rolleyes:

You are being unfair. I have thoroughly enjoyed his Fairy story thus far.

Why ruin the moment by asking for proof?

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HN

Banned 10 years ago

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by HN

Oh no, you can't be that naive. It's a billion dollar business and you are talking about the approval process?
Do you really think it's run by guys who were robbing gas stations the other day. No, of course those would never pull it off.
The bigger crooks have greater possibilities.

Keyword "bribery scandal" 10 million results in Google. But no, they are too stupid to bribe to get it approved. After all how do you know it's not run by the people who are supposed to test and approve it disapprove it?

There are actually billion dollar businesses in existence that don't require the years and technical knowledge and equipment that your little theoretical business does. But go on ... this is very exciting.

As for what vaccines you do or do not get ... who cares? Those who want protection get it and you aren't a threat to them.

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TimPhelan

10 years ago

Originally Posted by HN

I know I would do it (esp. if noone would suspect conspiracy) but only if I knew it would wipe out just the eaters and parasites and won't affect the farmers who actually produce the goods.

So you admit you would gladly commit mass murder if you can get away with it and if the people you deem as unworthy to live are the victims? That's pretty sick and about all I need to know about you.

Not only do you not have any morals apparently but you also don't know what you are talking about and don't pay attention to what others say either. If you read what Derek, who's a virologist, said in the post before your ridiculous post you will see he said vaccines aren't really very profitable. He's completely right. To help educate yourself on this subject here you go:

Their reason? Vaccines are very, very bad for business.

Surprised? Don't be. Despite the constantly repeated claims about "massive vaccine profits" the truth (as revealed in the annual financial statements of these companies) is that vaccines simply aren't worth very much. The primary purchaser of vaccines are governments. In the USA the vaccine suppliers get squeezed as much as possible. In the many western countries with socialized medicine they don't even get to negotiate - the governments simply tell the suppliers how much they are going to get paid and that's that.

On top of that, the pharmaceuticals are constantly pressured to give away huge stocks of vaccines to impoverished countries. It just gets worse, the patents for the majority of vaccines expired years ago, so there's not even the chance to monopolize the trade. The bottom line: as far as anyone can tell, the only reason that pharmaceuticals are still even making vaccines is because the various national governments will take away their pharmaceutical licenses if they stop.

Essay:Big Pharma is funding the Anti-vaccine movement - RationalWiki

During the past fifty years, the number of pharmaceutical companies making vaccines has decreased dramatically, and those that still make vaccines have reduced resources to make new ones. Pharmaceutical companies are gradually abandoning vaccines because the research, development, testing, and manufacture of vaccines are expensive and because the market to sell vaccines is much smaller than the market for other drug products...

Pharmaceutical companies are businesses, not public health agencies; they are not obligated to make vaccines. Events during the past fifty years have made the manufacture of vaccines more expensive and their sale less profitable.

Why Are Pharmaceutical Companies Gradually Abandoning Vaccines?

So there goes your bright idea.

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HN

Banned 10 years ago

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TimPhelan

10 years ago

Originally Posted by HN

You honestly expect me to believe what media or scientists say? No, I mean you really do, don't you?

You have convinced me with your overwhelming logic. I won't believe anyone else, especially the evil scientists. I will only listen to you. Carry on sir. I am listening, ready to learn.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

You have convinced me with your overwhelming logic. I won't believe anyone else, especially the evil scientists. I will only listen to you. Carry on sir. I am listening, ready to learn.

Well, you can be certain that you won't be listening to a scientist. :p

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Claude Whitacre 10 years ago

Originally Posted by HN

I teach school children

Ahhh, here you are, you little scamp. Sooo......

You teach school children.
You have found a cure for Asthma.
You memorized a book.
You speak 40 languages.

H; (May I call you H?)
Where have you been? I think we'll be having fun as long as you are here.

Keep it coming, you little rascal.

There's more here!
http://www.warriorforum.com/off-topi...ml#post9052467
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- lanfear63 10 years ago
  
  The HN Scientists thread has crossed over into the anti Vaxers thread. This is amazing (and fun). Like a virus. He will be on the Martian Fluffy Bunnies thread next.
  
  This guys a genius, knows 50 languages, memorises books and no-one has mentioned he's probably a world class violinist.
  
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  Claude Whitacre 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by HN
  
  And the answer is right here:
  http://www.warriorforum.com/off-topi...ml#post9057048
  
  You mean the deleted thread? It wasn't me. I was having too much fun. I thought I did some of my best work there. Nobody appreciates art.
  
  By the way...One of the most interesting and fun threads in a while. Thanks for the memories.
  
  Anyway, I think my work is done here. Tally Ho!
  
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LarryC 10 years ago

Essay:Big Pharma is funding the Anti-vaccine movement - RationalWiki

The above theory is actually quite interesting. Unfortunately, the author doesn't give any evidence for it, only giving possible motives for Big Pharma to do this. These supposedly rational sites are always attacking conspiracy theories for lack of evidence, but I guess it depends on which side you're on.

<< It is a truly brilliant strategy, and it's no surprise that finding rock-solid evidence of this scam will be difficult. Big Pharma has a lot of money, and they are very good at covering their tracks. But even though we'll never hear a pharmaceutical publicly admit they are funding the anti-vaccines groups, there is already enough circumstantial evidence to make it chillingly, uncomfortably, plausible. It also explains why the only people you ever hear defending vaccines are family doctors and badly funded community health departments. >>

The last part just isn't true. The mass media, which is certainly funded in part by Big Pharma, is constantly running stories defending vaccines and trying to debunk anyone who questions vaccines.

Is Big Pharma secretly funding the anti-vaccine movement? It's possible, but if so it's doing so in an extremely subtle manner.
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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill

Logic is vastly over-rated in the decision making process. What is logical is often not moral, ethical and is often at odds with religious convictions.

The logical thing to do isn't always the right thing to do.

Oh, and the opposite is true, too. False premises can lead to true conclusions.

Wow. You just told me everything I need to know. Thank you.

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nettiapina

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

That's why, even though my knowledge of vaccines is minimal, when I see gaping holes in an argument, I just don't accept it. I won't even bother to try to verify an argument unless it's structurally sound. It saves time.

I've been doing this for a long time, but somehow didn't realize why before I read your comment. Indeed, it saves a lot of time. Poor logic seems to go hand in hand with questionable information.

I've noticed that poking holes to an argument or pointing the faults in logic doesn't persuade anyone to change their opinion. Their structurally unsound premise is built around a belief to explain and justify it. A believer might not even notice that their logic has essentially collapsed on itself. The discussion at that point becomes very frustrating, and shouting match is almost unavoidable.

I'm not a scientist, and I'm not a terribly smart person either. But there doesn't seem to be that many things in the world that can't be sufficiently explained on layman level without gaping holes in logic and information. You can understand vaccination if you know basics of biology and medicine. It's not like advanced math or theoretical physics.

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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

Originally Posted by nettiapina

I've noticed that poking holes to an argument or pointing the faults in logic doesn't persuade anyone to change their opinion.

That happens once we accept an idea to be true. We are now invested in our idea, and we'll defend it. It works this way whether what we believe is true or not.

Originally Posted by nettiapina

Their structurally unsound premise is built around a belief to explain and justify it.

Again, that's generally the way to form beliefs, whether the premise is unsound or not.

Originally Posted by nettiapina

A believer might not even notice that their logic has essentially collapsed on itself. The discussion at that point becomes very frustrating, and shouting match is almost unavoidable.

That's why it's important to look at the thinking process, stripped of the actual subject matter and points made. It's very difficult to do. And it's nearly impossible to see a flaw in the thinking process. For me, it usually has to be pointed out. It has nothing to do with intelligence, or knowledge. But if the structure of the argument is flawed, my conclusion is always wrong.

Originally Posted by nettiapina

The discussion at that point becomes very frustrating, and shouting match is almost unavoidable.

But it is avoidable. It takes two to argue. If you see a corrosion in the other person's thinking, if you point it out, they will see it as a personal attack, not a learning process. And they will raise their voice. It's just the way we are. The secret is to not be invested in the subject.

For example, you have to not care if you find out vaccines are helpful or not. You can't look for information to prove your point, because you'll always find it. You have to let the evidence take you to a conclusion, not try to force the evidence. That's what science is.

And after decades of debates and discussions.....a little sage advice.
If you know the person you are talking to is using faulty logic, but the outcome of the discussion isn't costly....back away. My wife keeps trying to teach me that. And when I remember to do that, it sure makes life easier.

In a discussion, rarely is the other person looking to be educated. You have to make sure that isn't your position as well. One of my real hopes is that I could always follow my own advice.

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MikeAmbrosio

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

And after decades of debates and discussions.....a little sage advice.
If you know the person you are talking to is using faulty logic, but the outcome of the discussion isn't costly....back away. My wife keeps trying to teach me that. And when I remember to do that, it sure makes life easier.

Years ago I went through supervisor training. The woman teaching the class called what you described as "choosing the mountain you want to die on". It made so much sense that it totally changed the way I argue and debate. To this day whenever some debate or argument ensues, I ask myself just how important it is for me to be right. 95% of the time the argument is totally pointless (to me) and when I see that I can back away with a smile and not lose a friend, or job, or client, etc.

Serves me well right here in the WF

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TimPhelan 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

I notice that everyone thinks you are agreeing with them...which I find funny.

Well, at least one person anyways. Definitely funny though.
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Kay King 10 years ago

On this particular subject - there are published studies now that provide some factual basis to rely on.

My niece was anti-vaccine until her first child was born. She read scientific results published - talked to several pediatricians recommended by friends - and made the decision to vaccinate.

She has six kids now - all vaccinated. However, she chose a pediatrician who administers vaccines separately rather than bundled as is common.

Even professionals will waffle because they don't want the responsibility (or liability) of making a parental decision for you. They can give you facts and professional opinions but you have to take the plunge and decide.
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- Kay King 10 years ago
  
  No, keep the vaccinated kids out of public school. Once again, you advocate force to get what you want. Surely, you can see that.
  
  It is estimated that 3 in 1000 children in the US are not vaccinated.
  
  Most of the restrictions that involve vaccinations are state or federal - not school district, etc.
  
  Demographics of Unvaccinated Children - Immunization Science
  
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- kenmichaels 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Kay King
  
  On this particular subject - there are published studies now that provide some factual basis to rely on.
  
  The problem with that ... and I know you know it with out someone pointing it out.
  
  There are plenty of agenda driven studies that have been published by "reputable"
  sources.
  
  Often times the data is interpreted, reinterpreted and then interpolated
  in order to fit the view of the funding party or even the group doing
  the study.
  
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Max Anderson

10 years ago

Wow, there are people who don´t have there children vacciniated???
We really life in crazy times...

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David Maschke

10 years ago

Good to see Alexa is still around :=p

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lanfear63 10 years ago

You should look at this.

It's from a Community College website. 81,000 students over multiple campuses and online.

Bacterial Meningitis Vaccination before you attend classes. "Texas Law Requires" A little deceptive.

But you only have to dig a little to see to be exempt from it entails the simple filling out of a form saying I don't want it. Wonder how many people went along with it though?

Bacterial Meningitis: What You Need to Know
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barbling

10 years ago

OF course I will vaccinate my kids. While yes, there is money in all big industries... I kinda sorta go for the folks who have their results in peer scientific journals compared to Internet cowboys.

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GaryCarlyle

10 years ago

Vaccines seem to cause autism. the rise of Autism since the invention of vaccines is massive. I would rather have measles.

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derekwong28 10 years ago

As a virologist and a father with a severely autistic child, this is a very painful subject for me. But I feel that I have to give some input.

1. If vaccines are associated with autism, then the chance must be exceedingly small. The anti-vaccine campaigners have been shifting their focus from MMR (mumps, measles, rubella) to other vaccines such as DPT (diptheria, pertussis, and tetanus).

2. No vaccines are 100% effective and safe.

3. Unlike drugs, vaccine manufacturers do not tend to make a lot of money from vaccines because in most cases, the vaccine strains were given to them by the WHO and other national bodies.

4. Vaccines such as those against smallpox and polio are known to be dangerous. In fact, cases of frank neurological poliomyelitis occurs from time to time that is caused by polio vaccine. In fact, I have seen quite a few case.

5. However, we have to ask ourselves whether the world is better off with smallpox or polio even though a few people may be severely affected by the vaccines.

6. Neither the vaccine or the coverage has to be 100% effective in order to eradicate an infectious diseases. There is something called "herd immunity". So that even if 90% of the people are immune, the 10% who are no immune do not get infected either. The actual percentage depends on the infectious agent. Smallpox and polio are relatively easy to eradicate. Measles is unlikely to be eradicated in the near future because it is too infectious.

7. Measles should not be considered in the same light as rubella and mumps because it is much more dangerous and can kill the child.

Derek
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seasoned

10 years ago

Yeah, I was even wondering about area 51 once. And the skunk works?

Oh well.

Steve

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seasoned

10 years ago

Now I won't even comment on the interesting ideas about the HIV creation conspiracy theories. I won't comment about the theories that they traced almost every case to one guy who was a steward on a canadian(IIRC) aircraft.

But you know they even have this theory that people gather and, just to see what they can do to annoy people, they make programs that attach onto other programs. Some just keep going and some do nasty things. I bring this up because they call THEM computer viruses. But I guess that can't be.

And some claim, and who knows, that some antivirus programs are written by the same people.

Some people don't believe that but believe people hijack, or even run, sites that infect computers and immediately scan them and say the person is heavily infected and should buy THEIR program that they may even claim is the only to be able to do so.

But NAW, people can't do such things!

Steve

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