The Health Care Situation In The U.S. is Badly Broken

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I just got off the phone with another medical billing office to make payment arrangements for one of my wife's MANY medical bills and I'm shocked, frustrated and very angry!

First of all, I feel awful for my wife. She's been suffering with 5 bulging discs in her neck and back for 3 years now. She's had two rounds of cortizone injections for each, two in the back, two in the neck, 25 sessions of physical therapy and on and on. Through all of this time she's missed very little work, too. Tough gal.

Yes, we have insurance. Actually, it's good insurance, but the number of bills keep flowing in and the deductible and co-pays have been mounting the past few months to where it's becoming unmanagable.

Recently she had to go to the emergency room 3 times within a month for pain in her chest and they still have no idea what's wrong with her.

I had made payment arrangements on 8 separate bills and nearly had 6 of them paid off. Now the ER bills are flowing in and they're refusing to make payment arrangements on the entire balance, they want a minimum payment for each invoice! We're talking ER, doctor, anesthesiology and anything else that shows up.

They told me that even if I made minimum payments on all of them that they may still choose to send us to collection if they're not paid off in a timely manner!

I'm in disbelief. I've been sending money as promised to every one of these other entities (physical therapy, primary care, MRI company, Urgent care, etc) for several months without missing a single payment, but now it may have all been for nothing.

As if we needed more salt poured in the would, my wife's car threw a rod in the engine on her way to work Monday. Our mechanic buddy said it wasn't worth replacing the engine and that she needs a newer car. So we're off to get her one this afternoon, financed, of course.

We're not destitute. I'm still in rebuilding mode for both my online and offline businesses, but I can usually make quick cash when we need it and between us we have a decent income. Still, like most others, we have our limits and we're really getting stretched thin.

It's beginning to affect my mindset as well. That's NOT good. I'm starting to really need a break and I can't take one. Sucks!

I'm just stunned by the lack of compassion and cooperation shown by most of these medical entities. Especially when we're trying to pay them!

I'll stop whining now. I know that many others have it worse than we do. It just seems wrong that these guys are determined to screw you when you're trying your best to do the right thing.

Oh well. Heavy sigh...

Rant over.
  • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
    Sorry to hear that Joe. People shouldn't have to go through these situations just because they get sick. My girlfriend has lupus and she has been to the hospital about 7 times in the last year. She has a very good job and excellent insurance but still her bills keep mounting up. She has bill collectors calling her all the time but just doesn't answer them and tries to pay what she can.

    I have been an advocate for a single payer system, a true universal health care system, for decades. That would be better than what we have now imo.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Most things would be better than what we have now.

      A true single payer system could eliminate health insurance companies and Medicaid, too. That's why it's unlikely to happen any time soon.

      To work properly it would have to be run by a govt agency outside the reach of partisan politics (fat chance) and without legacy appointments.

      A year or so ago I proposed closing down hundreds of local post offices and using that real estate to establish low cost medical clinics. Combine that with a single payer system and you'd have a winner. Add a flat tax and eliminate the IRS and life would be better and simpler. Pipe dreams until the public gets fed up enough to demand something be done that makes sense.

      Healthcare-NOW! - Single-Payer
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      • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

        I have been an advocate for a single payer system, a true universal health care system, for decades.
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        A true single payer system could eliminate health insurance companies and Medicaid, too. That's why it's unlikely to happen any time soon.
        I have differing opinions on this but would prefer not to hijack Joe's thread. If someone else wants to start another thread, I would be happy to join in.

        Joe Mobley
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    • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
      Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

      Sorry to hear that Joe. People shouldn't have to go through these situations just because they get sick. My girlfriend has lupus and she has been to the hospital about 7 times in the last year. She has a very good job and excellent insurance but still her bills keep mounting up. She has bill collectors calling her all the time but just doesn't answer them and tries to pay what she can.

      I have been an advocate for a single payer system, a true universal health care system, for decades. That would be better than what we have now imo.

      I'm sorry to hear about the health related problems.

      We can and should do better as a nation with one of the major issues in life.

      I'm sure a single payer system would be cheaper for the feds and the average consumer, easier to transition and manage than what we have today.

      The house was gung-ho for a single payer system at the time the ACA was passed but...

      ... to bad we couldn't get more than 45 senators (all from one side of the isle) interested.

      To discontinue the private health care system in this country would take 60 votes in the senate - per current senate rules.

      It could just as easily take only 51 votes with the VPOTUS breaking any ties if the senate rules changed.

      Maybe next time.


      BTW...

      I heard that the ACA allows for the states to set up a single payer system within their state if they so choose.

      But what would happen to the approx. 400K workers of the U.S. private health care industry?

      I guess that number represents only non-MDs.

      How many would we need to help run the new single payer system?
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      • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
        Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

        I heard that the ACA allows for the states to set up a single payer system within their state if they so choose.
        Vermont is going to start a single payer system in the next couple of years as long as the feds allow it. I'm hoping they do and the state will be one of many more to come.
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        • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
          Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

          After everything I've heard...

          Its hard to believe a person making only $900 bucks per month wouldn't be eligible for some type of subsidy that would knock the final cost way down.

          Its strange how most of the horror stories from the ads that are being run against the program turn out to be not so bad after all when some reporter starts digging into the person's situation.

          I hope your friend has looked at all her options correctly.
          Thanks. She is computer illiterate, so I had her over and we walked through the process together with me filling in the details, that's the only reason I know so much about her situation.

          It's possible we didn't do something right, so the next step is trying to find someone else to help her. If, in the event I didn't get something right, then I think the process is deficient. I'm not exactly an idiot, I don't think, so if I didn't get something right I think it means something more than I just didn't get something right, if you know what I mean.
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    • Profile picture of the author Joe Stewart
      Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

      Sorry to hear that Joe. People shouldn't have to go through these situations just because they get sick. My girlfriend has lupus and she has been to the hospital about 7 times in the last year. She has a very good job and excellent insurance but still her bills keep mounting up. She has bill collectors calling her all the time but just doesn't answer them and tries to pay what she can.

      I have been an advocate for a single payer system, a true universal health care system, for decades. That would be better than what we have now imo.

      I'm sorry to hear about your girlfriend, Tim. I had a neighbor a few years ago that had just been diagnosed with it and was really struggling. I also have an elderly Aunt that's struggled with it for several years.

      I hope your girlfriend is able to find relief to where it's manageable.

      Joe
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      • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
        Originally Posted by Joe Stewart View Post

        I'm sorry to hear about your girlfriend, Tim. I had a neighbor a few years ago that had just been diagnosed with it and was really struggling. I also have an elderly Aunt that's struggled with it for several years.

        I hope your girlfriend is able to find relief to where it's manageable.

        Joe
        Thanks Joe. She is truly an amazing woman. The disease attacks the whole body. Every organ is a target and while I have known her I have seen the disease become more aggressive. It's damaged one of her kidneys. I have sit next to her in a hospital for hours and hours while she is in pain and have seen what the disease does. I won't go into detail about how it affects her but I can tell you how much she inspires me because of her bravery and love of life. I'm sure it is the same way you feel about your wife.
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  • Profile picture of the author ThomM
    I really feel for your wife Joe.
    I had two bulging disks in my lower back that compressed my spinal cord so bad I almost lost the use of my left leg.
    Everything we tried had no effect at all. That includes three epidurals.
    I have a very high tolerance for pain and what I went through had me in tears 24/7. I can't imagine what your wife feels and how she can endure it. Tough woman you have there.
    I finally had a Laminectomy done in 2003 after a putting up with it for a year. Laminectomy Definition - Tests and Procedures - Mayo Clinic
    Except for the summer of 2011 I've been pain free ever since.

    As for the other stuff with the ins. and medical field, it really is about the money with them since the medical field turned into a "for profit" industry.
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  • Profile picture of the author Joe Stewart
    Thanks guys. She's been tough in many ways, but she's suffered a lot, too. She's also put on a lot of weight the past couple years, which isn't helping at all. It concerns me for her overall health, of course, but it also concerns me that if she gets too big I'm not sure how much I'll be able to help her if her condition continues to deteriorate, which is going to happen. I'm partially disabled too.

    The discs are degenerative and she's also been diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis. Her fingers are already beginning to disfigure. She's only 46, too. I'm not sure how much longer she'll be able to work. I need to bring her home for good.

    First I have to sit down and put a one and two year plan in place that will replace her income, pay down (absolutely necessary) debts and establish online income streams again that will make my income much less dependent on the U.S. economy.

    Anyway, I don't want to get off topic. I just hope that she can hang on awhile longer and that those medical bills don't prevent her from being treated in the future when she needs it again.
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      The discs are degenerative and she's also been diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis. Her fingers are already beginning to disfigure. She's only 46, too. I'm not sure how much longer she'll be able to work. I need to bring her home for good.
      That's what I was diagnosed with degenerative disk disease which caused spinal stenosis. Also had some arthritis in the mix. Best thing I found for the arthritis is organic apple cider vinegar. I heat up about 4 oz. of water and dissolve around a T. of honey in it (to taste). Then I add 12oz. of cold water and 2T. of the ACV. I had rheumatoid arthritis in my thumbs that was so bad I had to use two hands to pick up a coffee cup, no more. I also eat 4 T. of coconut oil a day. I found out it helps your bones absorb calcium and magnesium among other things.
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      • Profile picture of the author Joe Stewart
        Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

        That's what I was diagnosed with degenerative disk disease which caused spinal stenosis. Also had some arthritis in the mix. Best thing I found for the arthritis is organic apple cider vinegar. I heat up about 4 oz. of water and dissolve around a T. of honey in it (to taste). Then I add 12oz. of cold water and 2T. of the ACV. I had rheumatoid arthritis in my thumbs that was so bad I had to use two hands to pick up a coffee cup, no more. I also eat 4 T. of coconut oil a day. I found out it helps your bones absorb calcium and magnesium among other things.

        Interesting formula. Where did you get the idea for that, may I ask?
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        • Profile picture of the author ThomM
          Originally Posted by Joe Stewart View Post

          Interesting formula. Where did you get the idea for that, may I ask?
          Originally from here Arthritis Treatment
          Then I mentioned it here on the forum and someone from Europe told me it was an old time remedy that he learned from his Grandmother.
          The coconut oil for my back came about by accident. I was already taking 2T. of coconut oil a day as an Alzheimer preventative. One day during that summer I mentioned earlier, as I was making my morning smoothie I noticed my coconut oil had melted. So I poured some into my smoothie. Four hours later I noticed a decrease in the pain. So I continued adding the coconut oil and within two weeks I was pain free again. Been using it like that ever since and (so far) have remained pain free.
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          • Profile picture of the author Joe Stewart
            Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

            Originally from here Arthritis Treatment
            Then I mentioned it here on the forum and someone from Europe told me it was an old time remedy that he learned from his Grandmother.
            The coconut oil for my back came about by accident. I was already taking 2T. of coconut oil a day as an Alzheimer preventative. One day during that summer I mentioned earlier, as I was making my morning smoothie I noticed my coconut oil had melted. So I poured some into my smoothie. Four hours later I noticed a decrease in the pain. So I continued adding the coconut oil and within two weeks I was pain free again. Been using it like that ever since and (so far) have remained pain free.
            Hmmm....I'll see if I can get her to try it. She's been very concerned about taking pain pills long term.

            Just to clarify, do you mean 2 teaspoons or 2 tablespoons?
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            • Profile picture of the author seasoned
              Originally Posted by Joe Stewart View Post

              Hmmm....I'll see if I can get her to try it. She's been very concerned about taking pain pills long term.

              Just to clarify, do you mean 2 teaspoons or 2 tablespoons?
              A capital T generally means TABLESPOONS. And for coconut oil, that is what I would suggest. Outside of the taste(The good stuff tastes like BLAND coconut, if you can imagine that), it should be FINE.

              For the condition your wife has, I would recommend about 1GM Calcium and 400MG Magnesium. It is ok if you overdose a bit on the calcium, but check your diet for the magnesium. If you eat a lot of spinach or kale, for example, cut back a bit on the magnesium. An overdose has a laxative effect. The advantage here is that it will make your system a bit less acidic, and supply needed minerals to help relieve arthritis. It will ALSO help to reduce pain.

              Steve
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            • Profile picture of the author ThomM
              Originally Posted by Joe Stewart View Post

              Hmmm....I'll see if I can get her to try it. She's been very concerned about taking pain pills long term.

              Just to clarify, do you mean 2 teaspoons or 2 tablespoons?
              Tablespoons.
              The pain pills can cause some pretty bad damage so It's good she's concerned.
              Before I had the surgery I was taking hydrocodone. In fact it was one reason I decided to try the surgery.
              Basically they where causing different parts of my digestive system to shut down. It started with them eating up my stomach. Then it was constipation so bad ( I won't go into details of that). The final problem was when I wasn't urinating. I drink coffee in the morning (about 4 cups) and it's always 1 cup in, 2 cups out. One day I drank a pot of coffee in the morning (starting around 5 a.m.) and didn't urinate until 10pm that night. That was when I stopped the hydros and decided to try the surgery.
              Keep in mind I'm not recommending the surgery. It worked for me, but I know to many people that have had back surgery who aren't any better off.
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              • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
                Joe and anybody else that is going through a tough time with an illness, my heart goes out to you. I hope for the best in both situations (health and financial.)

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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Originally Posted by Joe Stewart View Post

    I just got off the phone with another medical billing office to make payment arrangements for one of my wife's MANY medical bills and I'm shocked, frustrated and very angry!

    First of all, I feel awful for my wife. She's been suffering with 5 bulging discs in her neck and back for 3 years now. She's had two rounds of cortizone injections for each, two in the back, two in the neck, 25 sessions of physical therapy and on and on. Through all of this time she's missed very little work, too. Tough gal.
    Believe it or not, I have the SAME type of problem. I wondered why they didn't just kind of put me in traction, and put things back into place. I had been in utter PAIN for MONTHS and I luckily saw a physical therapist and LUCKED OUT. CAREFUL, I went to a chiropractor years later, because he would do it for free, to see if I could improve things. They got *****FAR***** worse. Luckily, my lumbar fell back into place eventually, and I slept with my neck on a rolled towel to fix the neck area.

    Yes, we have insurance. Actually, it's good insurance, but the number of bills keep flowing in and the deductible and co-pays have been mounting the past few months to where it's becoming unmanagable.

    Recently she had to go to the emergency room 3 times within a month for pain in her chest and they still have no idea what's wrong with her.

    I had made payment arrangements on 8 separate bills and nearly had 6 of them paid off. Now the ER bills are flowing in and they're refusing to make payment arrangements on the entire balance, they want a minimum payment for each invoice! We're talking ER, doctor, anesthesiology and anything else that shows up.

    They told me that even if I made minimum payments on all of them that they may still choose to send us to collection if they're not paid off in a timely manner!

    I'm in disbelief. I've been sending money as promised to every one of these other entities (physical therapy, primary care, MRI company, Urgent care, etc) for several months without missing a single payment, but now it may have all been for nothing.

    As if we needed more salt poured in the would, my wife's car threw a rod in the engine on her way to work Monday. Our mechanic buddy said it wasn't worth replacing the engine and that she needs a newer car. So we're off to get her one this afternoon, financed, of course.

    We're not destitute. I'm still in rebuilding mode for both my online and offline businesses, but I can usually make quick cash when we need it and between us we have a decent income. Still, like most others, we have our limits and we're really getting stretched thin.

    It's beginning to affect my mindset as well. That's NOT good. I'm starting to really need a break and I can't take one. Sucks!

    I'm just stunned by the lack of compassion and cooperation shown by most of these medical entities. Especially when we're trying to pay them!

    I'll stop whining now. I know that many others have it worse than we do. It just seems wrong that these guys are determined to screw you when you're trying your best to do the right thing.

    Oh well. Heavy sigh...

    Rant over.

    You guys DO know about REFERRED PAIN, RIGHT!?!?!? Referred pain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Basically, outside of a couple paths, the ONLY control/feeling you have, below the skull, is through the SPINAL COLUMN. Feeling pain in your toes, for example, is an illusion. The brain perceives that a pain signal has been received by a nerve that SHOULD terminate in that toe. If you have a spinal misalignment on any access, it could pinch a nerve and make you THINK the pain is somewhere ELSE! A vertebra in the neck can cause etreme pain in the legs, wrists, etc...

    So if she is going for all sorts of phantom pains, STOP!!!!!!! Talk to a good doctor, and tell them about the disk problems. SERIOUSLY! I went in for a wrist problem that became shoulder pain and eventually severe pain in my legs so I was practically immobile, and it was ALL because of the spin problem. Once that was fixed, the other pains disappeared.

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author Joe Stewart
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      You guys DO know about REFERRED PAIN, RIGHT!?!?!? Referred pain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
      Hi Steve,

      First of all, I'm sorry to hear of your struggles too. I see what my wife goes through some days and I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

      Regarding referred pain, yes, she did mention it. The primary physical therapist that worked on her before she had to have the shots told her about it and was actually able to alleviate much of the pain during their sessions, but it was only for a short time.

      The last pain specialist she saw said that she should try acupuncture for a few sessions and see if that helped at all. I guess it works for some, but not so much for others. The doctor also said that they could do a nerve block as a last resort, but we're really trying to avoid that. She's terrified at the thought of that.

      I'll say this, I care about my wife very much, but I'm just about to be open to anything. These bills are a real setback. Also, she's more moody than ever before. My son and I try to lay low much of the time, but then she gets upset that we're in the other room. I think part of it is her going through menopause, too. Can you say "psycho?" :-)

      Thanks for sharing.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by Joe Stewart View Post

        The last pain specialist she saw said that she should try acupuncture for a few sessions and see if that helped at all. I guess it works for some, but not so much for others. The doctor also said that they could do a nerve block as a last resort, but we're really trying to avoid that. She's terrified at the thought of that.
        I don't think acupuncture has much of a chance. This DOES kind of short circuit the nerves(AHEAD of the acupuncture points).

        I wish I still had the docs I got about 15 years ago, etc... Doing the neck is relatively simple, and results COULD be seen in SECONDS sometimes. Doing the lumbar region may be harder.

        ONE thing she could try doing, though it might be uncomfortable is to sleep on a FLAT surface, and provide a pillow or something under the lumbar region when she is sleeping. Take a small towel and role it up to about a 1.5-2"(~3.5-5cm) rod, and put it under the neck. If she can't turn her neck without pain, have her look to the right and left while lying on the floor, bed, or against a wall with the rod behind her neck. It is OK if the rod is compressed, but make sure there is pressure against the neck. HOPEFULLY she will soon see relief. It could be seconds, it could be gradual over months.

        ALSO, beds DO go bad! If she finds the bed gives incorrectly, try flipping the mattress, or sleeping with your head at the foot of the bed.

        AGAIN, I am NOT a doctor, though this helped ME! Taken JUST A BIT above your comfort level(Which is maybe moderate short term pain.), it should only show improvement. I went from a virtual INVALID that was wondering how I could keep gainful employment and was on the floor in pain and unable to get up, to working a new job getting paid much more, and flying all over, with only a little pain every few years. I just don't often follow the advice here. When I am in pain, I follow the advice I am giving you and am back to normal within 2 days, often SECONDS.

        The reason this works is simply that it provides pressure against the discs and vertebra to move them forward. Of course, downward pressure, and head to toe pressure make this difficult. Moving your head gives you an idea of how you are doing and ALSO causes the pressure from the back to have move of an impact. The disc SHOULD seat best in the perfect position, so that is what you should approach. With each movement she MAY see the pain dissipate, and her range of motion increase.

        One thing about it. The neck, in theory, should fix the problem all the way down to just below the lungs, so it is the most important, and what will likely give the most relief. The lumbar region should take care of the rest(For the most part, this is the lower back and legs.). They are the most flexible parts, so it makes sense that they would often be the parts causing this kind of problem.

        It was probably caused by arthritis, bad posture, and/or a sudden shock.

        Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    It cost me $1,200 cash for 3 tongue depressors, 5 min. exam. & 3 hours in the waiting room at the ER.

    They did nothing besides paperwork & supplying $0.05 tongue depressors. Told me nothing was wrong with me, eventually I found out I had strep throat. I only went to the ER because my throat felt like it was on fire & nothing was helping, plus it was the weekend, the doctors office is closed Fri, Sat, Sun.

    It's all one HUGE scam.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      It cost me $1,200 cash for 3 tongue depressors, 5 min. exam. & 3 hours in the waiting room at the ER.

      They did nothing besides paperwork & supplying $0.05 tongue depressors. Told me nothing was wrong with me, eventually I found out I had strep throat. I only went to the ER because my throat felt like it was on fire & nothing was helping, plus it was the weekend, the doctors office is closed Fri, Sat, Sun.

      It's all one HUGE scam.
      If that is SERIOUSLY all that happened, I would complain. I COULD, after seeing how they may price things, see the tongue depressors costs tens of dollars, so maybe $30 for all three, but $1170 for 5 minutes?

      Regarding the 51/60, I wonder how far you can stretch the DIP! And Mr. TUTL HIMSELF sounds scared. THERE'S a first! I would be clearer and provide a few videos here but, well... BTW The vice president does NOT get a vote unless there is a quorum and 50 people vote. So if 51 people vote, he doesn't get a vote. HECK, if they get 59 votes, and need 60, he can't vote. THAT'S why he DIDN'T!

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    Sorry to hear about your problems, Joe. I wish you luck.

    I hear you loud and clear about the healthcare system. Someone I know recently tried to get healthcare through the healthcare.gov site, you know, the so-called Obama-care stuff.

    The lowest priced policy for her was $496 a month. She only makes $916 a month, so it would cost her over half her income. She can't afford that, so she'll have to pay the fine for not having health care.

    Brilliant system that fines poor people for being poor. Like that fine is going to help her or change anything. Someone should be in prison for designing that mess, IMO.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      Brilliant system that fines poor people for being poor. Like that fine is going to help her or change anything. Someone should be in prison for designing that mess, IMO.
      I called my insurance company(one of the biggest) MANY times in the past and basically got the answer "WE DON'T KNOW, CALL LATER"!

      THIS time, they had the AUDACITY to say it was up to my employer to be ACA complaint. I told him ******WRONG******! That is YOUR job as the insurance company!

      He searched and searched and searched! I must have been on the phone for 2 HOURS! He came back and you know what he said?

      1. My plan is CURRENTLY compatible! But the requirements will CHANGE in JULY!
      2. My deductible is currently reasonable. I am paying a bit more to cut it down to half the standard, so it is now about 1 FOURTEENTH the amount it would be on the HC.G website!!!!!!!!!!! But it MAY go up in august!
      3. My plan has to be renewed in august!

      So they told me more than before, but basically said "WE DON'T KNOW! Call back in JULY!"!

      OH YEAH, he said THEY offer better plans than are available on the government websites, at a better price!

      Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      Sorry to hear about your problems, Joe. I wish you luck.

      I hear you loud and clear about the healthcare system. Someone I know recently tried to get healthcare through the healthcare.gov site, you know, the so-called Obama-care stuff.

      The lowest priced policy for her was $496 a month. She only makes $916 a month, so it would cost her over half her income. She can't afford that, so she'll have to pay the fine for not having health care.

      Brilliant system that fines poor people for being poor. Like that fine is going to help her or change anything. Someone should be in prison for designing that mess, IMO.

      After everything I've heard...

      Its hard to believe a person making only $900 bucks per month wouldn't be eligible for some type of subsidy that would knock the final cost way down.

      Its strange how most of the horror stories from the ads that are being run against the program turn out to be not so bad after all when some reporter starts digging into the person's situation.

      I hope your friend has looked at all her options correctly.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

        After everything I've heard...

        Its hard to believe a person making only $900 bucks per month wouldn't be eligible for some type of subsidy that would knock the final cost way down.

        Its strange how most of the horror stories from the ads that are being run against the program turn out to be not so bad after all when some reporter starts digging into the person's situation.

        I hope your friend has looked at all her options correctly.
        They ARE bad! What I was offered was WORTHLESS! With ANY plan. I would have to have my suggested annual exam(which is EXPENSIVE) just to break EVEN. And as I recall, there wasn't much I could ever be ahead.

        Don't get me wrong, I cost less than a couple thousand dollars a year, so they DO usually make money off me. But paying MORE for WORSE insurance? NO THANKS!

        A bit of advice. Talk to a good local insurance agent, as apparently they have BETTER and CHEAPER plans!

        Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author Joe Stewart
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      Sorry to hear about your problems, Joe. I wish you luck.

      I hear you loud and clear about the healthcare system. Someone I know recently tried to get healthcare through the healthcare.gov site, you know, the so-called Obama-care stuff.

      The lowest priced policy for her was $496 a month. She only makes $916 a month, so it would cost her over half her income. She can't afford that, so she'll have to pay the fine for not having health care.

      Brilliant system that fines poor people for being poor. Like that fine is going to help her or change anything. Someone should be in prison for designing that mess, IMO.

      Thanks Dennis. I posted that this morning after getting off the phone with a medical billing company and went on a bit more of a rant than I would have liked. It's kind of embarrassing, actually. I guess I needed to let off some steam. I appreciate you all being understanding.

      I agree about Obama Care. I think he had good intentions when he campaigned for it, but it was obviously an extremely poorly planned system. I think they'll modify it and it will get better over the next couple years, but even though many people who couldn't get insurance will benefit from it, many more who already had a good plan are now suffering because of it. They need to act fast to get this fixed.
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  • Profile picture of the author lcombs
    It pisses me off every time I hear a politician say: "Every American needs health insurance."

    The only thing that accomplishes is lining the pockets of insurance companies that over-charge and under-pay.

    We don't need insurance.

    We need health care.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by lcombs View Post

      It pisses me off every time I hear a politician say: "Every American needs health insurance."

      The only thing that accomplishes is lining the pockets of insurance companies that over-charge and under-pay.

      We don't need insurance.

      We need health care.
      I think I have ran out of thanks, but that says it ALL!!!!!!

      SIGN UP ON THE SITE? WHY? ALL it does is allow you to not be charged by the IRS!

      SIGN UP FOR A POLICY? HECK, in a very real way, it breaks a lot of laws. They don't tell you what the scope is, for one. There is a panel setup ONLY to determine SCOPE, so you KNOW this won't cover EVERYTHING. ALSO, there are rules concerning when it starts, etc...

      So this whole "I just got healthcare, YEAH" is a bit early. It is like getting a check, and not being able to see the amount. The CHECK doesn't matter. HECK, what you PAID for the check doesn't matter. What matters is how much you have made AFTER IT CLEARS.

      Heck, I got insurance through my employer a bit over a decade ago. I thought it was a nice benefit, but didn't think about it. I was lucky it covered all that it did. I STILL paid plenty though. I hope I will have similar coverage after the end of this year. The deductible has to be below $2000, and it has to have a large network, or large coverage of out of network. And it has to be a reasonable cost.

      And a lot of doctors are quitting, etc.... I hope I can still keep my doctor.

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author serryjw
    Apple Cider Vinegar & Coconut Oil are miracle treatments for everything. I use ACV daily for digestive problems. I brush my teeth with C.O!
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    Sorry to hear about everybody's health problems. I'm lucky so far - and grateful.
    I know a lot of people who are not healthy and have pain everyday, or come down
    with every bug that is going around...

    Joe - when I read about your wife's chest pains, I thought dehydration and low magnesium and potassium levels from the other meds and all she's been going
    through. Just my thoughts and I'm not a doc.

    Dan
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Vermont is going to start a single payer system in the next couple of years as long as the feds allow it. I'm hoping they do and the state will be one of many more to come.
      Tim - If they do that, can they opt out of the federal plan?

      That might be the road forward - states taking back their power and creating their own plans.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        Tim - If they do that, can they opt out of the federal plan?

        That might be the road forward - states taking back their power and creating their own plans.
        That would be a real MESS! What about if you are in another state? ALSO, another thing to consider...

        As HHS Moves To End Overload Of Medicare Claims Appeals, Beneficiaries Will Get Top Priority - Kaiser Health News

        More Veterans Caught In Disability Compensation Appeals Backlog, Allsup Reports

        Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
        Yes, basically the state plan would take the place of the ACA. The feds have to approve it and grant a waiver first. Any plan would have to meet certain requirements and I think the Vermont plan does so. I agree, it could be the best way forward. California came very close a couple times to pass a single payer but our last Governor vetoed it twice.

        "To launch fully in 2017, Green Mountain Care would have to gain approval from the federal government to use federal health finances to fund the state program. Also, before Green Mountain Care is allowed to launch, state law requires Vermont to define the benefits in the program, provide a three year budget that costs less than current health care expenditures, and to acquire the federal waiver."

        Vermont health care reform - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        Tim - If they do that, can they opt out of the federal plan?

        That might be the road forward - states taking back their power and creating their own plans.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          There's some good points to that idea. States would need to provide good, affordable, sustainable plans because while people may not leave a country over health care - they will move to another state.

          I've always supported the idea of state's rights and this would move in that direction....if the feds would stay out of it.
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            There's some good points to that idea. States would need to provide good, affordable, sustainable plans because while people may not leave a country over health care - they will move to another state.

            I've always supported the idea of state's rights and this would move in that direction....if the feds would stay out of it.
            I CAN'T move! That would take too long(change the drivers license, sell the home, get an apartment, etc...), cost too much, and drive people nuts. It is ALSO a HUGE security risk. And why do THAT just to move back? NOPE, I just WORK in other states. Yeah, I know, it seems hard to understand, but think of states as cities. I may live in lima, and work in venice. OK, OK, they are two states, and THAT is where the problem lies.

            But HEY, I could be traveling through. WHO KNOWS?

            HECK when I moved here I had to get ANOTHER insurance agent. The AAA insisted I go with their CHICAGO branch!

            Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    In one of these threads someone posted a link that said the average country on par with the US society is paying ABOUT $5000 per person, and the US is paying $8000 per person.

    With that being the case why doesn't SOMEONE say "ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!!!!!!!! YOU HAVE THE MONEY!!!!!!!! YOU ARE SPENDING THE MONEY!!!!!!! THERE IS A LEAK!!!!!!! FIND IT AND PLUG IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

    I mean NO offense guys but a lot of this stuff DOES come from the US! So WHAT is wrong!?!?!?!? Are duties too high? Are Taxes too high? Are tests too expensive? Is it R&D? I mean GIVE ME A BREAK! If it is shipping, let's ship in bulk from canada! It doesn't cost much there and we could ship in bulk for PENNIES a package! If it is R&D and we order from abroad, WHY are WE getting the worst deal? If THEY are ordering from US, why don't we pass on the cost. AGAIN, a larger number of units means the per unit cost is LOWER! Does canada care if birth control pills go up 1%? Probably NOT! If it drops OUR cost by 20%, WE would be happier!

    But with our government, they NEVER want to reduce costs! OH? There is a leak? Lets just plug it up with MONEY!

    It shouldn't be hard to find the culprits.

    It is NOT solely the insurance. I have seen bills from the HOSPITALS! So it is hospitals, drugs, and doctors. It is NO secret that drugs cost a LOT more in the US. don't know about the hospitals and doctors, but canada and the US could have a 30 minutes talk and EASILY summarize the countries.

    And if it is the doctors, is it education? Licensing? Operating insurance(liabiity/malpractice, etc...)? Lawsuits? AGAIN, the US is KNOWN for LOTS of lawsuits! Audits? Bad hygiene? etc....?

    Think of it! We could CUT our costs 60% on our OLD system and have good healthcare!

    It is IRONIC that we are spending MORE time looking for a PLANE! BTW did YOU know that many are practically SCREAMING that the US take over the search for that plane!

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author dapaleezy
    My heart goes out to everyone going through heath problems on this thread. don't know you guys but wish you best of luck and will be sure to keep you in my prayer's
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by dapaleezy View Post

      My heart goes out to everyone going through heath problems on this thread. don't know you guys but wish you best of luck and will be sure to keep you in my prayer's
      YEAH, I always HATED HEATH bars. Heath bar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Sorry, couldn't resist.

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author NewParadigm
    a good chiropractor and massage therapist/PT are priceless. It's no fun not being in good health. For someone who posted on a bad exp w/ chiro, there are many good ones. Also accupuncture worked wonders for my fathers shoulder pain.

    The US system needed some changes but now it will be an utter disaster.
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  • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
    Joe:

    You should talk to a bankruptcy lawyer....not about filing bankruptcy, but about negotiating a settlement in this case.

    The goal is not to file bankruptcy itself, but to get their attention, and get them to the negotiating table to work things out. And nothing gets their attention quicker than the spectre of getting nothing at all.
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  • Profile picture of the author billpullman
    check in other countries what the medical insurance cost is?

    and good coverage.....

    now you understand why its broken?

    its 50x what it costs in other countries with just as good doctors as in the usa
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by billpullman View Post

      check in other countries what the medical insurance cost is?

      and good coverage.....

      now you understand why its broken?

      its 50x what it costs in other countries with just as good doctors as in the usa
      ANOTHER reason why we don't have a free market is that NOBODY KNOWS THE PRICE!!!!!! You can't decide where to go to, etc...

      Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author NewParadigm
      Originally Posted by billpullman View Post

      check in other countries what the medical insurance cost is?

      and good coverage.....

      now you understand why its broken?

      its 50x what it costs in other countries with just as good doctors as in the usa

      its not real helpful looking at healthcare cost in a vacuum. In exchange for lower health care cost, what are the overall taxes? they can run 60-70% so "healthcare" isn't low cost. it's subsidized.

      American's are free to go to other countries if they love their healthcare systems too.

      People here think single payer nationalized systems of other countries is some utopian dream with no costs no tradeoffs. Don't be so naive.

      There is less incentive for innovation to develop new breakthrough medical devices and treatments.

      It astounds me that entrepreneurs think a total govt controlled system is the answer.

      The govt will soon come out and say....internet marketers are overcharging people. We must have equal access to internet marketing for all people and businesses. We will set internet marketing quotas and prices to reign in these internet fat cat rich people. Watch everyone cry foul then.
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  • Profile picture of the author TheChiropractor
    Hey, I was just searching the term "chiropractor" to see what I can find on internet marketing for my business and landed in your thread. I'm sorry to hear your wife is having some back issues Joe. I do highly recommend finding a great chiropractor in your area and seek chiropractic care. I know it will be effective if she is consistent and stick with it.

    It will need to be a combination of pain medications (to keep pain down so she can do therapies), chiropractic (keep disc healthy and prevent further deterioration), medical massage therapy (to work on the muscles... practitioners forget about properly healing the muscles.. but it's ESSENTIAL to reducing pain and long term results), nutritionist (get the weight down) and physical therapist (get her strong and exercising again).

    This is ideally what she would need for the next 4-6 months to get the results you're looking for. Unfortunately, health care is broken and your insurance will not allow all of this "unnecessary" care. However, I do encourage you to find private offices that will work with you w/ your financial situation. Most have an out of pocket fee which can be more cost effective.

    Please do PM me if you have other questions. More than happy to help.

    Good luck.
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    • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
      Originally Posted by Joe Stewart View Post

      I just got off the phone with another medical billing office to make payment arrangements for one of my wife's MANY medical bills and I'm shocked, frustrated and very angry!

      First of all, I feel awful for my wife. She's been suffering with 5 bulging discs in her neck and back for 3 years now. She's had two rounds of cortizone injections for each, two in the back, two in the neck, 25 sessions of physical therapy and on and on. Through all of this time she's missed very little work, too. Tough gal.

      They told me that even if I made minimum payments on all of them that they may still choose to send us to collection if they're not paid off in a timely manner!

      I'm in disbelief. I've been sending money as promised to every one of these other entities (physical therapy, primary care, MRI company, Urgent care, etc) for several months without missing a single payment, but now it may have all been for nothing.

      It's beginning to affect my mindset as well. That's NOT good. I'm starting to really need a break and I can't take one. Sucks!

      I'm just stunned by the lack of compassion and cooperation shown by most of these medical entities. Especially when we're trying to pay them!

      I'll stop whining now. I know that many others have it worse than we do. It just seems wrong that these guys are determined to screw you when you're trying your best to do the right thing.
      Yep, doctors are run by big Phar, company's, which means the most expensive cure they can find! Unfortunately!

      I was in a doctors office, after my Mother fell on the cement, and needed a bandage, (well after her, cancer checkup) and heard two nurses talking about possible treatment for someone. They were trying to figure out the most expensive treatment they could add to chemo,.


      There are some good alternative treatments being offered here, but in all honesty seek out more.

      If Doctors knock someone who offers an alternative treatment to the usual cancer treatments they will usually be silenced before too long, regardless of how safe it is, or how effective.

      Plenty of documented cases of this sort of crap, happening, so best to seek out all treatments with proven positive track records!

      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      It cost me $1,200 cash for 3 tongue depressors, 5 min. exam. & 3 hours in the waiting room at the ER.

      They did nothing besides paperwork & supplying $0.05 tongue depressors. Told me nothing was wrong with me, eventually I found out I had strep throat. I only went to the ER because my throat felt like it was on fire & nothing was helping, plus it was the weekend, the doctors office is closed Fri, Sat, Sun.

      It's all one HUGE scam.
      That's insane!

      To get a melanoma removed in Au, is $100 for a 5 or 10 minute operation!


      Shane
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      • Profile picture of the author ErinWalsh
        I'm sorry for all the health care woes you guys are going through. From paying off outrageous bills to getting affordable and effective coverage.

        Joe, your wife has my sympathy. I have back issues as well, but hers sounds worse than mine.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Our health care system is going to be trash until they render it non-profit. Most of the real problems with it involve greed. Hospital moguls, drug company, device manufacturers, etc. are making a killing keeping people on "life long" medication and treatments, many of which they don't need and could be accomplished naturally without side effects. Once the greed is taken out of the system, then, and only then, will we see real health care instead of an out of control malevolent medical industrial complex.
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    • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Our health care system is going to be trash until they render it non-profit. Most of the real problems with it involve greed. Hospital moguls, drug company, device manufacturers, etc. are making a killing keeping people on "life long" medication and treatments, many of which they don't need and could be accomplished naturally without side effects. Once the greed is taken out of the system, then, and only then, will we see real health care instead of an out of control malevolent medical industrial complex.
      This reminds me of your argument that the federal reserve must be eliminated in order for America's people to be prosperous again - which ignores the fact that we already were a prosperous nation while the fed has been around.

      The only way to get most of the greed out of the medical system is to have a savvy populace that wants to go with a single payer type of system or to heavily regulate what we already have in place - and the "heavily regulated" option is in the process of happening now.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

        This reminds me of your argument that the federal reserve must be eliminated in order for America's people to be prosperous again - which ignores the fact that we already were a prosperous nation while the fed has been around.

        The only way to get most of the greed out of the medical system is to have a savvy populace that wants to go with a single payer type of system or to heavily regulate what we already have in place - and the "heavily regulated" option is in the process of happening now.
        GOD how #$%^&*(! The Fed reserve started AFTER the US was doing fine. It actually INTENTIONALLY creates CRASHES! Watch CSPAN sometime! The railroads were created! The FORD CAR(The FIRST car designed in the US like today's cars and made on the assembly line), the battery, the bulb, the record player, the telegraph, the radio, and MANY other things were created and sold BEFORE the Federal reserve was created!!!!!!!!!!!

        The most greedy entity involved in healthcare, transportation, gas, etc... today, in theUS, is the US government! They also seem to know NOTHING about insurance OR medical technology. They are the LAST ones that should be trusted with such things. That website was NOT just a website! Does ANYONE think people like me care that much about a website?

        NOPE! It was NOT a website! It was an example of the WASTE, STUPIDITY, and INCOMPETENCE! SERIOUSLY, they could give a reasonable 5yo the money, and THEY could do better! What is so hard about getting EXISTING agencies to add an API to facilitate communication? What is so hard about finding someone that SUCCESSFULLY did something similar before? What is so hard about using standards to ballpark potential amounts to come up with a budget? What is so hard about LOOKING AT WHAT IS DONE at certain points? You know, they used to lay stones every mile with streets, etc... TO THIS DAY any DECENT project lists what are called MILESTONES that are similar. GOT THE APIS? GOOD! GOT THE GUI? GOOD! GOT THE STORAGE WORKING? GOOD! GOT THE COMMUNICATION WITH THE APIS GOING? GOOD!

        They did NONE of that, unless you believe that they simply wanted to foist this on us, which I consider to be even WORSE!

        WHO do you trust more? One that pays a FORTUNE to have others do the work, and makes it public without so much as checking, or one that creates a shell and absconds with the money?

        Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
          Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

          GOD how #$%^&*(! The Fed reserve started AFTER the US was doing fine. It actually INTENTIONALLY creates CRASHES! Watch CSPAN sometime! The railroads were created! The FORD CAR(The FIRST car designed in the US like today's cars and made on the assembly line), the battery, the bulb, the record player, the telegraph, the radio, and MANY other things were created and sold BEFORE the Federal reserve was created!!!!!!!!!!!

          The most greedy entity involved in healthcare, transportation, gas, etc... today, in theUS, is the US government! They also seem to know NOTHING about insurance OR medical technology. They are the LAST ones that should be trusted with such things. That website was NOT just a website! Does ANYONE think people like me care that much about a website?

          NOPE! It was NOT a website! It was an example of the WASTE, STUPIDITY, and INCOMPETENCE! SERIOUSLY, they could give a reasonable 5yo the money, and THEY could do better! What is so hard about getting EXISTING agencies to add an API to facilitate communication? What is so hard about finding someone that SUCCESSFULLY did something similar before? What is so hard about using standards to ballpark potential amounts to come up with a budget? What is so hard about LOOKING AT WHAT IS DONE at certain points? You know, they used to lay stones every mile with streets, etc... TO THIS DAY any DECENT project lists what are called MILESTONES that are similar. GOT THE APIS? GOOD! GOT THE GUI? GOOD! GOT THE STORAGE WORKING? GOOD! GOT THE COMMUNICATION WITH THE APIS GOING? GOOD!

          They did NONE of that, unless you believe that they simply wanted to foist this on us, which I consider to be even WORSE!

          WHO do you trust more? One that pays a FORTUNE to have others do the work, and makes it public without so much as checking, or one that creates a shell and absconds with the money?

          Steve
          The fed was alive and well during America's golden age, (1945 to circa 1990) and that is my point verses Sal arguing that we can't be prosperous as long as the fed is here - when we already were - so it can happen again. (not that I'm in love with the fed)
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

            The fed was alive and well during America's golden age, (1945 circa 1990) and that is my point.
            WOW! You have it start with a war there, and 1999 was a crash!

            BTW What do WWI, KOREAN WAR, VIETNAM, and WWII all have in common? ALL were senseless wars that were fought AFTER the Federal Reserve.

            IMAGINE! If we didn't have the fed that sent us down this crazy road, we likely wouldn't have had some of the stuff that led to the weimar republic and the first world war. All this stuff DOES seem closely tied. If that didn't happen, a certain guy may not have ended up going to WWI, etc... Without the transpiring events, the NAZIs(at least the german ones) wouldn't even have existed!

            That would have made the korean war and vietnam far less likely, and WWII wouldn't have happened.

            I doubt the japanese would have attempted all they did without support. I don't know about the italians, but a lot seem to forget about Benito Mussolini! I just came up with a VERY interesting theory as to why they swept HIS name under a rug, alas.... TOO POLITICAL! Lookup PSI though(political)!

            Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author serryjw
    Joe, Medical Marijuana is legal in Arizona. I have horrible arthritis, nothing OTC worked. I won't take meds. I stopped smoking and didn't want to smoke the MJ. Here in CO, we have every delivery system you can think of. It was NOT my intention to get stoned. There are many MJ strains that have VERY low THC., I highly recommend trying it.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    I guess you guys just love the FEDERAL RESERVE! BTW, I saw this and thought of you:


    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author serryjw
    Is the same 'Golden Age' that we lost 93% of the US dollar. Is this the same 'Golden Age' where the Country & The citizen lived on borrowed money to the tone of 43% of every dollar...Where do you think our TRILLIONS of debt came from, even before Obama.. Our balance of trade is embarrassing...WHY would any country want to buy our GMO/HFCS food?
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by serryjw View Post

      Is the same 'Golden Age' that we lost 93% of the US dollar. Is this the same 'Golden Age' where the Country & The citizen lived on borrowed money to the tone of 43% of every dollar...Where do you think our TRILLIONS of debt came from, even before Obama.. Our balance of trade is embarrassing...WHY would any country want to buy our GMO/HFCS food?
      NO! WHERE do you get THAT! GOD NO! Maybe you misread it or something. We didn't lose 93%! It was more like 98%!!!!!!!!!

      The 43% is wrong ALSO, since it doesn't count pensions, Social Security, etc...

      The US is having trouble because CHINA won't buy our GMO produce! CHINA! The SAME country that we accept concentrated whey laced with cadmium, NICKEL, etc... from! The SAME country we accept little kids toys made out of lead from. The SAME country we accept pet food laced with melamine from! But THEY won't accept our GMO produce.

      http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...A3F20P20140416

      Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
      Originally Posted by serryjw View Post

      Is the same 'Golden Age' that we lost 93% of the US dollar. Is this the same 'Golden Age' where the Country & The citizen lived on borrowed money to the tone of 43% of every dollar...

      Where do you think our TRILLIONS of debt came from, even before Obama.. Our balance of trade is embarrassing...WHY would any country want to buy our GMO/HFCS food?

      The American standard of living was still the highest the world had ever known.

      We paid down most of the WW2 debt by 1980 but then we started a new round of debt, taking our national debt from about 300 billion to almost 4 trillion in the 12 years from 1980 to 1992.

      I never said things were/are perfect.
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  • Profile picture of the author serryjw
    STEVE...You are the best!!!
    ----------------------
    TLTheLIBERATOR
    The American standard of living was still the highest the world had ever known.
    Not difficult when you borrow 43%
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    • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
      Originally Posted by serryjw View Post

      STEVE...You are the best!!!
      ----------------------
      TLTheLIBERATOR
      Not difficult when you borrow 43%
      If you're talking about household debt, what's wrong with 75%-85% of that debt being related to a mortgage and a car?
      Signature

      "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

        If you're talking about household debt, what's wrong with 75%-85% of that debt being related to a mortgage and a car?
        You DO realize that Banks and all generally require 30% or less debt for credit report items, RIGHT!?!?!? That includes HOUSE, CAR, CREDIT CARDS, OTHER INSTALLMENT LOANS, etc..... Or are you claiming they pay 45%-55% in tax? IF SO, BLAME THE GOVERNMENT!

        Do you realize that we went about 100 YEARS with ALL income taxes being 2% or LOWER? HECK, we went several decades with them being 0%! That isn't for a single group, but EVERYONE! AND, considering what we started with, that was maybe the most productive time in history!

        HECK, the computer would not even be a DREAM without some of those inventions, and CERTAINLY not possible. Electricity, batteries, resistors, diodes, transistors, crystals, capacitors, transformers, generators, motors, magnetic recording, various chemicals,theories, the concepts used to create PC boards, etc.... were discovered or created at that time. AND, without that, FORGET IT!

        For those that don't know, the CPU(the "brain" in your PC) is an IC. An IC is basically a miniature PC board(Over simplifying a little, but SAME basic process), that has resistors, capacitors, diodes, and transistors on it. Computers work by basically switching transistors on and off according to a set of instructions called a program. THAT is one reason why companies like intel, TO THIS DAY, brag about transistor count! https://communities.intel.com/thread/22998

        Intel Microprocessor Quick Reference Guide - Product Family

        Another reason is because it is about the most complex single component on an IC. Memory, registers, etc... are made up of transistors also, at least in part.

        People make a big deal about how computers used to fill up a decent size room, and now they are so tiny. The dirty little secret is that computers today are MORE complex, and have MORE parts. It is simply that they used to solder hundreds of transistors, MANUALLY. NOW, they relatively quickly create them on a tiny substrate, so less time/work. The transistors used to be like a couple tenths of an inch. NOW, they are so small you might barely see them with a microscope. I think the size could now be like 80-95 BILLIONTHS of a meter! The traces that USED to be 1/16th of an inch, or bigger, could now be about 25nm.

        Of course, without resistors, capacitors, and crystals, you can forget about them running. You STILL need electricity, which means you need batteries or something. Plug a computer into the 110 current in the wall, and it could blow up and catch fire! So I guess you need a transformer there somewhere! Magnetic recording is nice, but it really won't work. I guess you need a motor someplace!

        YEAH, it IS amazing what they made in the 18th and 19th centuries, HUH? Whodathunkit!?

        Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
          Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

          You DO realize that Banks and all generally require 30% or less debt for credit report items, RIGHT!?!?!? That includes HOUSE, CAR, CREDIT CARDS, OTHER INSTALLMENT LOANS, etc..... Or are you claiming they pay 45%-55% in tax? IF SO, BLAME THE GOVERNMENT!

          Do you realize that we went about 100 YEARS with ALL income taxes being 2% or LOWER? HECK, we went several decades with them being 0%! That isn't for a single group, but EVERYONE! AND, considering what we started with, that was maybe the most productive time in history!

          HECK, the computer would not even be a DREAM without some of those inventions, and CERTAINLY not possible. Electricity, batteries, resistors, diodes, transistors, crystals, capacitors, transformers, generators, motors, magnetic recording, various chemicals,theories, the concepts used to create PC boards, etc.... were discovered or created at that time. AND, without that, FORGET IT!

          For those that don't know, the CPU(the "brain" in your PC) is an IC. An IC is basically a miniature PC board(Over simplifying a little, but SAME basic process), that has resistors, capacitors, diodes, and transistors on it. Computers work by basically switching transistors on and off according to a set of instructions called a program. THAT is one reason why companies like intel, TO THIS DAY, brag about transistor count! https://communities.intel.com/thread/22998

          Intel Microprocessor Quick Reference Guide - Product Family

          Another reason is because it is about the most complex single component on an IC. Memory, registers, etc... are made up of transistors also, at least in part.

          People make a big deal about how computers used to fill up a decent size room, and now they are so tiny. The dirty little secret is that computers today are MORE complex, and have MORE parts. It is simply that they used to solder hundreds of transistors, MANUALLY. NOW, they relatively quickly create them on a tiny substrate, so less time/work. The transistors used to be like a couple tenths of an inch. NOW, they are so small you might barely see them with a microscope. I think the size could now be like 80-95 BILLIONTHS of a meter! The traces that USED to be 1/16th of an inch, or bigger, could now be about 25nm.

          Of course, without resistors, capacitors, and crystals, you can forget about them running. You STILL need electricity, which means you need batteries or something. Plug a computer into the 110 current in the wall, and it could blow up and catch fire! So I guess you need a transformer there somewhere! Magnetic recording is nice, but it really won't work. I guess you need a motor someplace!

          YEAH, it IS amazing what they made in the 18th and 19th centuries, HUH? Whodathunkit!?

          Steve
          serryjw is going on and on about 43% debt figure/ratio and I'm saying...

          ... if he's talking about average U.S. household debt, - during the golden age, what's the problem with 75-85% of that 43% debt ratio he keeps quoting if its a mortgage and a car loan?

          I know no one expects most folks to pay for a home and a car with cash so what's his point?

          Since you have been thanking him for his related comments perhaps you can explain.
          Signature

          "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

            serryjw is going on and on about 43% debt figure/ratio and I'm saying...

            ... if he's talking about average U.S. household debt, - during the golden age, what's the problem with 75-85% of that 43% debt ratio he keeps quoting if its a mortgage and a car loan?

            I know no one expects most folks to pay for a home and a car with cash so what's his point?

            Since you have been thanking him for his related comments perhaps you can explain.
            43% is a LOT, though I said it was MORE! The US DEBT clock says the average citizen needs to pay approximately 439% of their income! OH, he left off a digit! But lets adjust that to be more realistic! After all, many aren't tax payers! OK, it is 828% of the average tax payer income! $193,485 PER CITIZEN! That is about $365,066 per taxpayer! And the government is NOT paying for a limited time, etc... Earlier, they said that all debts should be paid for THAT term. Do you really think we forget how we handle our own debts, etc? Or do YOU forget that? GEE! HOW do you do that and survive?

            And MOST people figure what they can pay, allocate some safety amount, and THEN pay or accept an obligation. The government obligates others and later DEMANDS payment. They are like a spoiled brat that REALLY wants to win a game. If they are losing, they simply change the rules, ignore the rules, or CHEAT! THAT is why they have the EX POST FACTO LAWS, the LARGE collection agency, and KEEP CHANGING THE TAX CODE!

            Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author serryjw
            TLTHELIBERATOR...Consumer debt is a new invention. BankAmericard(VISA) started in 1934. Home mortgages were a joke until after WWII. FHA only financed 50% for 5-7 years. The 30 mortgage of today started post WWII.
            As bad as debt is for US government or it's citizens, what is worse is the borrowing to pay off the debt. Today you have a home and car loan. What happens when that plus your consumer spending can NOT be paid, based on the contract, on time. Then you start using your credit card to pay your monthly obligations. Then the downward spiral starts. YOU will never get out of the debt. It multiples exponentially.
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            • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
              Originally Posted by serryjw View Post

              TLTHELIBERATOR...Consumer debt is a new invention. BankAmericard(VISA) started in 1934. Home mortgages were a joke until after WWII. FHA only financed 50% for 5-7 years. The 30 mortgage of today started post WWII.
              As bad as debt is for US government or it's citizens, what is worse is the borrowing to pay off the debt. Today you have a home and car loan. What happens when that plus your consumer spending can NOT be paid, based on the contract, on time. Then you start using your credit card to pay your monthly obligations. Then the downward spiral starts. YOU will never get out of the debt. It multiples exponentially.
              If you're saying excessive debt is not a good thing I agree.

              If you're saying folks should not have taken out 30 year mortgages to own a home I'm going to have to disagree with you.

              A paid off piece of property in the family can be a great aid to a family for generations and the positive options because of home ownership are many.

              Thanks to the combo of the 30 year mortgage and the mortgage tax deduction U.S. home ownership rates skyrocketed after WW2.

              Signature

              "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

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              • Profile picture of the author serryjw
                TLTHELIBERATOR. Even the best things in life can be abused. MOST peoplel will never see their homes paid off...that is a shame. For years realtors told people, 'if you can afford the house, you are not buying enough house.' That is one of the reasons you had so many in trouble after 2007. They bought 'too much' house that could NOT be serviced on ONE income. They over improved it using DEBT financing, instead of saving for the renovations.
                No matter how you spin it...DEBT is bad. Want to use a credit card? It must be paid off by the next cycle....none of this creating debt upon debt by paying minimum payments.

                BTW, the tax deduction for MOST average Americans is a crock. IT was designed for the wealthy
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                • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                  Originally Posted by serryjw View Post

                  TLTHELIBERATOR. Even the best things in life can be abused. MOST peoplel will never see their homes paid off...that is a shame. For years realtors told people, 'if you can afford the house, you are not buying enough house.' That is one of the reasons you had so many in trouble after 2007. They bought 'too much' house that could NOT be serviced on ONE income. They over improved it using DEBT financing, instead of saving for the renovations.

                  No matter how you spin it...DEBT is bad. Want to use a credit card? It must be paid off by the next cycle....none of this creating debt upon debt by paying minimum payments.

                  BTW, the tax deduction for MOST average Americans is a crock. IT was designed for the wealthy

                  Of course some people were sold too much house etc. from about 1998-2007 which resulted in a housing bubble bursting helping to lead to the great recession, but home ownership is a good thing as far as I'm concerned and if people have to borrow money to get there then so be it.

                  I'm not spinning anything.

                  Most people in their 60's on up actually own their property outright and about 1/3 of all residential property in America is free and clear of a mortgage.

                  Nearly one-third of U.S. homeowners have no mortgage - Los Angeles Times

                  You said...

                  BTW, the tax deduction for MOST average Americans is a crock. IT was designed for the wealthy

                  I say...

                  Whomever it was designed for (in reality and your mind), it has helped home ownership of non wealthy people skyrocket and IMHO that's a good thing for numerous reasons.

                  BTW...

                  There is such a thing as the responsible and smart use of debt which can be very useful.

                  For example...

                  I hear...

                  After they have a process that works that also depends on buying their advertising...

                  ... some online marketers are buying their advertising right after their credit card billing cycle closes - making a healthy profit and getting paid - all before the next credit card bill comes due.

                  I'm not spinning anything.

                  There are many examples of responsible and smart use of debt so your statement that debt is bad doesn't do it for me - but to each its own.

                  Excessive and careless debt is bad but not all debt is bad.
                  Signature

                  "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

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                  • Profile picture of the author serryjw
                    Excessive and careless debt is bad but not all debt is bad.
                    I agree...BUYING an expensive car on a 60 month loan is bad debt. Using your credit card and not paying it off monthly is a bad debt. IMHO. buying a home & car is the only good debt assuming it is within your budget.
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              • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                If you're saying excessive debt is not a good thing I agree.

                If you're saying folks should not have taken out 30 year mortgages to own a home I'm going to have to disagree with you.

                A paid off piece of property in the family can be a great aid to a family for generations and the positive options because of home ownership are many.

                Thanks to the combo of the 30 year mortgage and the mortgage tax deduction U.S. home ownership rates skyrocketed after WW2.

                MAN, you don't get it! serryjw is saying that INFLATION caused the need to have a mortgage. HECK, MORTGAGES cause the need for mortgages! If the interest rate goes up, home prices FALL!!!!!!!! You know why?







                LACK OF PURCHASING POWER!!!!!!! That 1930 dip is interesting. Right about when the SHTF from the crash. I forget when it happened in 1929, but 1929 was just the start, and it lasted until about 1933.

                Steve
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                • Profile picture of the author serryjw
                  Steve, we get it. WHAT is inflation...Yep, it is a hidden tax on middle Americans. On top of inflation ( Thank You Federal Reserve), we have the propaganda that we are sold in McMansion with all the bells & whistles. A bathroom for everyone, a gated community with all the amenities and TWICE the sq footage that our grandparents had in their homes.
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                  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                    Originally Posted by serryjw View Post

                    Steve, we get it. WHAT is inflation...Yep, it is a hidden tax on middle Americans. On top of inflation ( Thank You Federal Reserve), we have the propaganda that we are sold in McMansion with all the bells & whistles. A bathroom for everyone, a gated community with all the amenities and TWICE the sq footage that our grandparents had in their homes.
                    Wow, I said that in my next post. One interesting thing though. Homes ARE getting larger, but land is often smaller.

                    ANOTHER thing is we probably have more homes with things that even late in the 19th century weren't that common. I wonder how long it took for all the plumbing and all to appear. Garbage disposals, according to wikipedia, didn't exist until 1935, and even into the late 1940s, some cities didn't allow them.

                    Anyway, there were a lot of differences.

                    Steve
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                    • Profile picture of the author serryjw
                      LAND has value...how much value does granite countertops have? I KNOW everyone has to have stainless steel appliances, black is not enough. I think we get that the weathly have'toys'. What I don't get is EVERYONE, including young couples, have to have this in their first starter home.
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                      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                        Originally Posted by serryjw View Post

                        LAND has value...how much value does granite countertops have? I KNOW everyone has to have stainless steel appliances, black is not enough. I think we get that the weathly have'toys'. What I don't get is EVERYONE, including young couples, have to have this in their first starter home.
                        MY appliances are black, and supposedly about the top of the line for ~2000. They look nice and run well. Frankly, something about stainless looks antiseptic, etc... In an aesthetic sense, that is NOT a good thing.

                        BTW my clothes washer and dryer are white. Quality, but like the 2nd least expensive. I thought the cheapest ones LOOKED cheap. The more expensive ones just didn't seem worth it.

                        Steve
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                        • Profile picture of the author serryjw
                          Did you read #76?
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                          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                            Originally Posted by serryjw View Post

                            Did you read #76?
                            Yeah. It's true. I did read the book. And yeah, I have been saying that the Federal Reserve is a joke for so many reasons.

                            The value of the money is there now SOLELY because of the products and services in the US. As the money supply goes up, and the products and services fall, the currency will fall also. Meanwhile, someone ELSE gets the gold, etc...

                            Steve
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                            • Profile picture of the author serryjw
                              This one we will have to disagree. The days of the US being the world's reserve currency is slowing to an end. I doubt that any ONE country will ever take over that reign. After decades multiple countries will take over by stabilizing everyone currency with SDRs
                              -------------------
                              Russia is NOT trading in US dollars
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                              • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                                Originally Posted by serryjw View Post

                                This one we will have to disagree. The days of the US being the world's reserve currency is slowing to an end. I doubt that any ONE country will ever take over that reign. After decades multiple countries will take over by stabilizing everyone currency with SDRs
                                -------------------
                                Russia is NOT trading in US dollars
                                I'm NOT disagreeing with you! Apparently, officially, the reserve currency allocation on the dollar is like 64%(iirc). It has supposedly dropped about 8% in the past 20 years. You can BET that will speed up.

                                One thing that limits the speed of things like this is the idea of being the lone wolf, the only adopter. As more go public, things pick up! Don't believe me? Look at your own life, and how YOU are. Anyway, until recently, this idea has been kept quiet. NOW, it is FAR from quiet!

                                SUPPOSEDLY, 3 countries have asked for their gold back. I don't know how THAT has gone, but ONE of them, GERMANY, DID ask for their money back. The rumor says they are to get it back over 7 years(IIRC). I don't know about THAT, but the germans are suspicious! GENERALLY, if you get everything back, the case is CLOSED.

                                BTW China has NOT only made their currency public, but they apparently SUCCEEDED in getting it accepted for OIL. In short, things do NOT look good for the dollar.

                                Steve
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                                • Profile picture of the author serryjw
                                  INVEST ( Great article)
                                  Oh Yeah, the Germans want their money back

                                  What does this mean?
                                  One thing that limits the speed of things like this is the idea of being the lone wolf, the only adopter. As more go public, things pick up! Don't believe me? Look at your own life, and how YOU are. Anyway, until recently, this idea has been kept quiet. NOW, it is FAR from quiet!
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                                  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                                    Originally Posted by serryjw View Post

                                    INVEST ( Great article)
                                    Oh Yeah, the Germans want their money back

                                    What does this mean?
                                    One thing that limits the speed of things like this is the idea of being the lone wolf, the only adopter. As more go public, things pick up! Don't believe me? Look at your own life, and how YOU are. Anyway, until recently, this idea has been kept quiet. NOW, it is FAR from quiet!
                                    Interesting article about reserve currency. I would like to quote:
                                    Low borrowing costs stemming from issuing a reserve currency may prompt loose spending by both the public and private sectors, which may result in asset bubbles and ballooning government debt. Stimulus spending in the U.S., for example, led Chinese leaders to fear a weak dollar since that would erode the country's value of dollar-denominated debt. One could also argue that part of the reason the U.S. was able to spend so freely is that excess Chinese savings had to be parked somewhere, and that somewhere was in the dollar.
                                    As for the odd gold delivery, that IS odd! The way I heard the gold described, it is not unlike that traditionally done for a LONG time. Standard purity,Standard shape, Standard size, of course that means a standard weight, stamped accordingly, and hallmarked. The hallmark effectively says that a certain assayer guarantees all else is correct,like johnson matthey. Johnson Matthey | Gold Bullion Bars | Johnson Matthey Gold Bars For Sale Online

                                    Anyway, I would HOPE that any gold, the US has, follows the standard. It is too easy to counterfeit bars. There have recently even been cases of coring bars so maybe 70% of the material is removed and resold by a thief, and they sell a bar with the hallmark on the open market. The ONLY ways to catch it are like weighing(Though they could have an alloy made to weigh about the same as the rest of the metal and foil this), xraying, or coring. And coring hurts the value of a legitimate bar.

                                    Steve
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                                      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                                        And THAT from a country that was once CLOSED, A country that is COMMUNIST! MAN! Frankly, I don't know why ANYONE trusted them to do ANYTHING!

                                        When I was a kid, I would see things from cheap battery holders made of cardboard to screwdrivers made of CHEAP SOFT steel that had a small tang, and handles of cheap plastic that wasn't prepared properly! What COULD have been a beautiful quality tool, if they properly forged the metal, made the tang larger, and prepared the plastic properly, ended up being an ugly piece of JUNK! SERIOUSLY! The handles had large voids, and if the blade could turn the screw, it was about as likely to turn in the handle!

                                        Of course, today, they make stuff that looks MUCH better. And most of the time, the blades hold up fine. I will STILL remember the JUNK though.

                                        If you had told me in the 70s that we would be at this point, I would NOT have believed it! By the 80s though, it looked like we were on our way. In the 80s, I would not have believed that any company would even have indian workers overseas, etc... By the mid 1990s(IIRC), they started to appear in almost every company. Some even claim they are raised as experts, etc... I can assure you, as someone in that area, that they AREN'T! Still, people will believe the stereotype FIRST.

                                        Steve
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                                        • Profile picture of the author serryjw
                                          Steve darlin'...You are rambling. I have no idea what your last post said. ;-)
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                                          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                                            Originally Posted by serryjw View Post

                                            Steve darlin'...You are rambling. I have no idea what your last post said. ;-)
                                            I am simply saying that they are talking about CHINA getting a reserve currency status like the US had. And china should be one of the LEAST likely to get that because they were communist, closed, etc.... And you can't trust them. I then spoke of how their products used to be utter garbage.

                                            Steve
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                                            • Profile picture of the author serryjw
                                              you can't trust them.
                                              After 2008, many would say they can't trust the US.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Adding a little to what serryjw said. When things go past a certain point, credit will be less likely to be accepted, and your score drops. When that happens, people need something to get them interested in taking a risk. That is generally done here by RAISING THE INTEREST RATE! SO, as you go past a certain point, that we have ALREADY PASSED, it gets harder and harder to borrow and pay off. S&P was one company that downgraded the US, and they are now suing!

    S&P sues US government over alleged retaliation for AAA credit downgrade | Business | theguardian.com

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author serryjw
      LOL! I remember that. It took a lot of %&*)_ to downgrade the US gov't. After 9-11 the financial institutions were getting worried about too much consumer debt and a shaky economy. So instead of Visa worry about Visa & M/C worry about your payment history from ONLY M/C...it became one for all and all for one. Every financial institution watched to see if ALL your consumer debt was being paid on a monthly bases. Many shyster lawyer advised their clients to rack up huge credit card debt and then declare bankruptcy.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    BTW a LOT of things happened around that time! Some things got cheaper because there was a worldwide depression. Some people started businesses out of need. There was greater exposure to other countries. Those that WERE working probably made far more because of minimum wages. It apparently started in 1938. At the time, some of the richest people WERE VERY rich. I mean people owning an ENTIRE national industry. It wasn't like today at all, at least not with the companies themselves. Supposedly the earlier tycoons got together and are now secretly running the federal reserve.

    Houses were smaller and, of course, everything cost less earlier on.

    But if we were in the 63-65% range, WHY did people try to upset the apple cart? Not everyone is going to have a home. ESPECIALLY not NOW! A lot of those people have CONDOS. SOME condos are little more than apartments.

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author serryjw
      You can have condos/co-ops that are as expensive as a single family homes. It is a lifestyle choice.
      My favorite book of all time. The Creature from Jekyll Island.
      The WEALTHY met in Jekyll Island, GA to establish the Federal Reserve....They own us, they own America.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Good grief. You can't teach someone economics on a forum. TL is a statist in every form of the word and isn't going to change his mind here. The only thing that can change his mind is some real education and, apparently, he isn't planning on going to University any time in the near future.

    And yes - I said the same thing about the FED as I said about the ACA -- and, sorry to tell you - I have taken my economic courses, I have done decades of research, and I also READ the ACA when it was a 1,200 page bill, and as a former Chief Justice of my college's student gov who is degreed in linguistics, I know exactly HOW to read a bill correctly. They are sinuous at best, every one of them these days.

    So if I'm to care what a statist who never really researched what he is yelling about or read the ACA and understands it wants to fling at me, sorry I don't. I just stand back when chimps fling poop, too. It's all good to me. I'm aware of issues. Throughout history, statists have thought themselves to be the "safe" ones because they support the "authorized" systems. Throughout history, this position has proved to be a dangerous and very mistaken stance.

    Hi ho. And so it goes.
    Signature

    Sal
    When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
    Beyond the Path

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    • Profile picture of the author serryjw
      Hey, after the 4th post I am obviously masochistic. ;-)
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Good grief. You can't teach someone economics on a forum.
      It STILL amazes me how people can even take home money, and pay the bills in this day and age without knowing the basics.

      Gee, if they think money is just free and has intrinsic value, why insist on taxes at all? Just print more money! And why can't I print out a million dollar bill? Don't forget! I am poor ALSO! I don't have a billion dollars.

      But YEAH, money is supposed to be CONTROLLED! THAT is even specified in the constitution! AGAIN in that section apparently so FEW have read, section 8:

      To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

      To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;
      So many of the recently proposed plans VIOLATE that!

      Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author serryjw
      To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

      To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;
      Isn't that Congress's job? ;-) WHERE in the Constitution gives the Federal Reserve that job?
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by serryjw View Post

        Isn't that Congress's job? ;-) WHERE in the Constitution gives the Federal Reserve that job?
        YEAH, it is the CONGRESS'S job! That is what section 8 covers. The fed reserve was created in 1913 and is not specified ANYWHERE in the constitution. In fact, the fed reserve has a special collection agency created for it, and Congress tied that collection agency into the constitution through the 16th amendment. Coincidentally, that ALSO was ratified in 1913!

        BTW thecollection agency is called the IRS!

        Brief History of IRS

        Brief History of IRS
        Origin
        The roots of IRS go back to the Civil War when President Lincoln and Congress, in 1862, created the position of commissioner of Internal Revenue and enacted an income tax to pay war expenses. The income tax was repealed 10 years later. Congress revived the income tax in 1894, but the Supreme Court ruled it unconstitutional the following year.
        16th Amendment
        In 1913, Wyoming ratified the 16th Amendment, providing the three-quarter majority of states necessary to amend the Constitution. The 16th Amendment gave Congress the authority to enact an income tax. That same year, the first Form 1040 appeared after Congress levied a 1 percent tax on net personal incomes above $3,000 with a 6 percent surtax on incomes of more than $500,000.
        In 1918, during World War I, the top rate of the income tax rose to 77 percent to help finance the war effort. It dropped sharply in the post-war years, down to 24 percent in 1929, and rose again during the Depression. During World War II, Congress introduced payroll withholding and quarterly tax payments.
        That is NOT some biased rehash or whatever ploy, that is from the IRS site ITSELF!!!!!

        BTW They were nice enough to include a link to the 1913 form: http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-utl/1913.pdf

        BTW TL, TIM, ETC......

        They,in 1913, allowed you to deduct ALL business expenses(today, it is only some), generally ALL loses(Today only some), ALL INTEREST from debt(today VERY little), ALL wear and tear from business(limited to 5% for mines)(today little). Even on investments, they let you exempt $3000 or $4000. Back then, that was a FORTUNE! And the whole thing is 4 pages!

        GEE, if I were paying my taxes in 1913, allowing for deflation, I would pay NOTHING in tax! I would be making less than 20K, so even WITHOUT the exemptions I wouldn't pay anything. Remember, $20K back then was a LOT!!!!! Even NOT allowing for deflation, my total tax would probably be like $1000. I would be able to write off a LOT!

        Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author serryjw
          Yeah, that's exactly my point. How different this world be without central banks. They were all creatd to financially enslave people.
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by serryjw View Post

            Yeah, that's exactly my point. How different this world be without central banks. They were all creatd to financially enslave people.
            That's the ironic part. People like TL will speak against the banks but will INSIST that we pay still MORE money to the biggest bank of all.

            Steve
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            • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
              Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

              That's the ironic part. People like TL will speak against the banks but will INSIST that we pay still MORE money to the biggest bank of all.

              Steve

              Thanks for the history lesson on taxation and the federal reserve but I'm not exactly sure what you meant by this...

              "People like TL will speak against the banks but will INSIST that we pay still MORE money to the biggest bank of all"
              Signature

              "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

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              • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                Thanks for the history lesson on taxation and the federal reserve but I'm not exactly sure what you meant by this...

                "People like TL will speak against the banks but will INSIST that we pay still MORE money to the biggest bank of all"
                TAXES->IRS->FED RESERVE

                BTW the FED RESERVE gets a portion of most loans, deals with banks, etc...

                Basically, the FED RESERVE prints money, and loans it to whoever, INCLUDING the government and banks They ALSO set the rates! The IRS then pays back the FED WITH INTEREST. The money has no REAL value.

                1. MOST of the value comes from goods and services offered through the US.
                2. That is of course because the US will only accept dollars, which may be one reason why it is so hard to deal with foreign currencies in the US. HECK, I had a major bank BALK at cashing a CANADIAN check!!!!!!
                3. The FED RESERVE, and now the president, can tweak that through the Gwhatever they call themselves today. Last I heard, it was the G8, but they are planning to move to the G20. The higher that number, the more unstable everything is going to be. The G7 was similar countries at similar levels with strong economies, and freedom. The G8 CEASED being that, and the G20 will be worse STILL.
                4. The FED RESERVE ALSO tweaks rates to do this.

                But without #1, the system COLLAPSES!

                Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Good grief. You can't teach someone economics on a forum. TL is a statist in every form of the word and isn't going to change his mind here. The only thing that can change his mind is some real education and, apparently, he isn't planning on going to University any time in the near future.

      And yes - I said the same thing about the FED as I said about the ACA -- and, sorry to tell you - I have taken my economic courses, I have done decades of research, and I also READ the ACA when it was a 1,200 page bill, and as a former Chief Justice of my college's student gov who is degreed in linguistics, I know exactly HOW to read a bill correctly. They are sinuous at best, every one of them these days.

      So if I'm to care what a statist who never really researched what he is yelling about or read the ACA and understands it wants to fling at me, sorry I don't. I just stand back when chimps fling poop, too. It's all good to me. I'm aware of issues. Throughout history, statists have thought themselves to be the "safe" ones because they support the "authorized" systems. Throughout history, this position has proved to be a dangerous and very mistaken stance.

      Hi ho. And so it goes.


      Sal, I don't think we disagree in what we want for the American people.

      From what I can tell, you have genuine empathy for the everyday American and their struggles and would like a country in which there is minimum of civil liberty violations, plenty of opportunity and financial times are good - much like the 1945 to circa 1990 period in American history.

      IMHO, no one can seriously say that Americans did not have the highest level of prosperity people in any country had ever known.

      IMHO, caring about the lives and standard of living of everyday Americans is a big part of patriotism which you're great at but IMHO,...

      ... you also practice a strange type of patriotism.

      - You seem to not care or understand that this is a country with many types of people in it and hate speech is something that is very counter-productive and not useful.

      Sure, I agree that people can say whatever they want to say and then (this is where I think we part company) ...

      ...IMHO, people also have the right to respond to it in whatever way they want.

      - You support someone who clearly does not believe in the U.S. (Mr. Bundy, Cliven not Ted also I hope).

      - I've heard you express support for things like The Republic Of Missouri which I guess is some form of government akin to the Republic Of Nevada Mr. Bundy referred to.

      IMHO, folks like Mr. Bundy and his supporters practice a very strange type of patriotism.

      I respect your many civil liberty concerns but IMHO, you've taken them to areas that are not conducive with a modern 21st century society.

      I understand your aversion to mandates but sometimes mandates are necessary for the greater good and the founders seemed to agree. (not that they were always right about everything)

      Here are a few examples of early mandates...

      Harvard Law professor says early Congress mandated health insurance for seamen and gun ownership for most men | PolitiFact Rhode Island


      You called me a statist which means...

      statism. the principle or policy of concentrating extensive economic, political, and related controls in the state at the cost of individual liberty. support of or belief in the sovereignty of a state, usually a republic.

      You're entitled to your opinion of me but I believe there should be a balance between the wants and needs of the individual and the community/group and also...

      ... a balance between the states and the U.S. federal government.

      When the U.S. Constitution was ratified most people understood the need for a stronger federal government because the Articles Of Confederation had proven it could not do the job - especially when you have several quarrelling states and regions with different agendas.

      So, it was understood by most that a much stronger Federal government was a necessary evil and of course the SCOTUS is designed as the authority on what is and is not constitutional.

      You said this earlier in this thread...

      "Our healthcare system is going to be trash until they render it non-profit.

      Most of the real problems with it involve greed. Hospital moguls, drug company, device manufacturers, etc. are making a killing keeping people on "life long" medication and treatments, many of which they don't need and could be accomplished naturally without side effects.

      Once the greed is taken out of the system, then, and only then, will we see real health care instead of an out of control malevolent medical industrial complex."

      I say...

      I agree the excessive greed needs to be squeezed out of our medical system.

      And now, I have to ask exactly how would you make our medical system much better than it is now?

      I'd love to know.


      BTW...

      Does it involve getting some entity to "force" drug companies, doctors, device manufacturers etc., to do the right things, stop being so greedy and accept a minimum of profit in the process?
      Signature

      "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

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      • Profile picture of the author serryjw
        medical industrial complex.
        You named everyone except the most guilty.. Monsanto and all their buddies. I don't care what kinda medical system we have until we EAT healthier...we are damned. Think it's a coincidence that we have an epidemic of type 2 diabetes & HFCS in every food you eat. No other industrialized country has our health( lifestyle) issues which raises the cost of HC with costly procedures.
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      • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
        Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

        Sal, I don't think we disagree in what we want for the American people.

        From what I can tell, you have genuine empathy for the everyday American and their struggles and would like a country in which there is minimum of civil liberty violations, plenty of opportunity and financial times are good - much like the 1945 to circa 1990 period in American history.

        IMHO, no one can seriously say that Americans did not have the highest level of prosperity people in any country had ever known.

        IMHO, caring about the lives and standard of living of everyday Americans is a big part of patriotism which you're great at but IMHO,...

        ... you also practice a strange type of patriotism.

        - You seem to not care or understand that this is a country with many types of people in it and hate speech is something that is very counter-productive and not useful.

        Sure, I agree that people can say whatever they want to say and then (this is where I think we part company) ...

        ...IMHO, people also have the right to respond to it in whatever way they want.

        - You support someone who clearly does not believe in the U.S. (Mr. Bundy, Cliven not Ted also I hope).

        - I've heard you express support for things like The Republic Of Missouri which I guess is some form of government akin to the Republic Of Nevada Mr. Bundy referred to.

        IMHO, folks like Mr. Bundy and his supporters practice a very strange type of patriotism.

        I respect your many civil liberty concerns but IMHO, you've taken them to areas that are not conducive with a modern 21st century society. (1)

        I understand your aversion to mandates but sometimes mandates are necessary for the greater good (2) and the founders seemed to agree. (not that they were always right about everything)

        Here are a few examples of early mandates...

        Harvard Law professor says early Congress mandated health insurance for seamen and gun ownership for most men | PolitiFact Rhode Island


        You called me a statist which means...

        statism. the principle or policy of concentrating extensive economic, political, and related controls in the state at the cost of individual liberty. support of or belief in the sovereignty of a state, usually a republic.

        You're entitled to your opinion of me but I believe there should be a balance between the wants and needs of the individual and the community/group (3) and also...

        ... a balance between the states and the U.S. federal government.

        When the U.S. Constitution was ratified most people understood the need for a stronger federal government because the Articles Of Confederation had proven it could not do the job - especially when you have several quarrelling states and regions with different agendas.

        So, it was understood by most that a much stronger Federal government was a necessary evil and of course the SCOTUS is designed as the authority on what is and is not constitutional. (4)

        You said this earlier in this thread...

        "Our healthcare system is going to be trash until they render it non-profit.

        Most of the real problems with it involve greed. Hospital moguls, drug company, device manufacturers, etc. are making a killing keeping people on "life long" medication and treatments, many of which they don't need and could be accomplished naturally without side effects.

        Once the greed is taken out of the system, then, and only then, will we see real health care instead of an out of control malevolent medical industrial complex."

        I say...

        I agree the excessive greed needs to be squeezed out of our medical system.

        And now, I have to ask exactly how would you make our medical system much better than it is now?

        I'd love to know.


        BTW...

        Does it involve getting some entity to "force" drug companies, doctors, device manufacturers etc., to do the right things, stop being so greedy and accept a minimum of profit in the process? (last first)
        (last first)
        What is a 'minimum of profit'? There isn't a single pharmaceutical company in the top 10 of Forbes' Fortune 500 list - they're oil companies and banks.

        How many people would go through the rigors and cost of medical training if they were going to make the same amount of money as a well-paid construction worker?

        (1) Why is it that some people think that liberty is 'not conducive to 21st century society'? I think a more accurate statement is that "some civil liberties are not conducive to my ideas of 21st century society."

        (2) You're right - sometimes, they are. Some of us think that the fewer mandates the government forces on the citizens that it derives power from, the better. Others, obviously, think the opposite.

        (3) Who decides which of the two - the 'needs' of the group, or the rights of the individual - are the more important?

        (4) It's funny how the left trumpets the sanctity of the SC when its decisions go their way, and derides it when decisions go the other way. The right does too, I suppose.

        (1) - (3) Something to chew on - I'm sure you're familiar with Thomas Jefferson's quip concerning the 'tree of Liberty'. There is a large group of people in the US - and the number seems to be growing - that are very concerned that the pendulum is swinging too far to the "needs of the many" side of the line, away from the rights of the individual that the Constitution and (supposedly) the SC is supposed to protect. That pendulum can swing only so far without repercussions. The 2nd Amendment is there for a reason, and it ain't hunting, and it ain't to provide the US with a standing army.

        I wonder, just as an intellectual question, if you would maintain the same "it's the law, so get over it" attitude if you were living in the 1850's.

        It was people who did not support the federal government and SC decisions that were the driving force behind the ultimate abolition of slavery in the US.

        People who believed in the rights of the individual - those individuals being slaves and former slaves - defied the federal government, who had passed laws, which your beloved SC upheld, perpetuating the practice of slavery. Where would we be if those people had not thumbed their noses at the feds? People lost their lives, even before the Civil War, by defying the government and doing what they felt was right.
        Signature

        The 2nd Amendment, 1789 - The Original Homeland Security.

        Gun control means never having to say, "I missed you."

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        • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
          Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

          (last first)
          What is a 'minimum of profit'? There isn't a single pharmaceutical company in the top 10 of Forbes' Fortune 500 list - they're oil companies and banks.

          How many people would go through the rigors and cost of medical training if they were going to make the same amount of money as a well-paid construction worker?

          (1) Why is it that some people think that liberty is 'not conducive to 21st century society'? I think a more accurate statement is that "some civil liberties are not conducive to my ideas of 21st century society."

          (2) You're right - sometimes, they are. Some of us think that the fewer mandates the government forces on the citizens that it derives power from, the better. Others, obviously, think the opposite.

          (3) Who decides which of the two - the 'needs' of the group, or the rights of the individual - are the more important?

          (4) It's funny how the left trumpets the sanctity of the SC when its decisions go their way, and derides it when decisions go the other way. The right does too, I suppose.

          (1) - (3) Something to chew on - I'm sure you're familiar with Thomas Jefferson's quip concerning the 'tree of Liberty'. There is a large group of people in the US - and the number seems to be growing - that are very concerned that the pendulum is swinging too far to the "needs of the many" side of the line, away from the rights of the individual that the Constitution and (supposedly) the SC is supposed to protect.

          That pendulum can swing only so far without repercussions. The 2nd Amendment is there for a reason, and it ain't hunting, and it ain't to provide the US with a standing army.

          I wonder, just as an intellectual question, if you would maintain the same "it's the law, so get over it" attitude if you were living in the 1850's.

          It was people who did not support the federal government and SC decisions that were the driving force behind the ultimate abolition of slavery in the US.

          People who believed in the rights of the individual - those individuals being slaves and former slaves - defied the federal government, who had passed laws, which your beloved SC upheld, perpetuating the practice of slavery. Where would we be if those people had not thumbed their noses at the feds? People lost their lives, even before the Civil War, by defying the government and doing what they felt was right.

          You said...

          sometimes[/I], they are. Some of us think that the fewer mandates the government forces on the citizens that it derives power from, the better. Others, obviously, think the opposite.

          I say...

          I don't have a problem with as few mandates as possible either and anyone characterizing me or most people on the left as a mandate hungry mob would not be accurate in their characterization.


          You said...

          "(1) Why is it that some people think that liberty is 'not conducive to 21st century society'? I think a more accurate statement is that "some civil liberties are not conducive to my ideas of 21st century society."

          I say...

          For example, in the age of terrorism, some people still have a big problem with being checked at airports before they get near boarding a plane - I don't.

          When I get on an airplane I want to feel safe verses some people getting their way and allowing people on planes without checking them etc.


          You said...

          It's funny how the left trumpets the sanctity of the SC when its decisions go their way, and derides it when decisions go the other way.

          The right does too, I suppose.

          I say...

          You're right, hardly anyone agrees with the SC all the time and they are not beloved by me in any way shape or form.


          You said...

          Something to chew on - I'm sure you're familiar with Thomas Jefferson's quip concerning the 'tree of Liberty'.

          There is a large group of people in the US - and the number seems to be growing - that are very concerned that the pendulum is swinging too far to the "needs of the many" side of the line, away from the rights of the individual that the Constitution and (supposedly) the SC is supposed to protect.

          That pendulum can swing only so far without repercussions. The 2nd Amendment is there for a reason, and it ain't hunting, and it ain't to provide the US with a standing army.


          I say...

          I wouldn't be surprised after seeing what's been going on and how his statement is being abused, Jefferson is probably sorry he made that statement.

          There are way too many people IMHO, who think we've come close to the pendulum swinging in favor of violence to solve our nation's problems.

          And before you counter with who's talking about violence?, you said this above...

          "That pendulum can swing only so far without repercussions.

          The 2nd Amendment is there for a reason, and it ain't hunting, and it ain't to provide the US with a standing army."

          I don't think you're talking about some peaceful flower power type of protest movement are you?


          You said...

          Who decides which of the two - the 'needs' of the group, or the rights of the individual - are the more important?

          I say...

          Who else but the citizens, the local and state governments, the feds and of course, the SC.

          You said...

          I wonder, just as an intellectual question, if you would maintain the same "it's the law, so get over it" attitude if you were living in the 1850's.

          I say...

          As a black person, if I were living in America during the 1850s it would depend on where I lived. Of course if in the south then the laws would have been terrible for me - if I were of the 10% of the negro population that lived in the north - that's another story.


          You said...

          How many people would go through the rigors and cost of medical training if they were going to make the same amount of money as a well-paid construction worker?


          I say...

          You'll never hear me say a construction worker should be paid like a MD or vice versa. If I somehow gave you that impression - please forgive.


          You said...

          It was people who did not support the federal government and SC decisions that were the driving force behind the ultimate abolition of slavery in the US.


          I say...

          The abolitionists didn't do much to end slavery even though they made a lot of noise and trouble for some people.

          It was the south trying to succeed from the union that led to the end of slavery in America.

          The leaders of the rebellion, underestimated Lincoln's resolve to marshall the north into action and depended on the war dragging on long enough that the people of the north would get tired of the war and say - what the hell, go ahead and leave.

          For example, If Lincoln had lost the 1864 election, Mccellion promised to allow the south to leave the union - but he won and the rest is history.

          Who knows how much longer slavery would have continued if the civil war had never happened? It may have still been in force up until this day.
          Signature

          "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            WOW!

            Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

            I don't have a problem with as few mandates as possible either and anyone characterizing me or most people on the left as a mandate hungry mob would not be accurate in their characterization.
            I guess you don't know you, etc... very well. Look at the post I am responding to, for example.

            When I get on an airplane I want to feel safe verses some people getting their way and allowing people on planes without checking them etc.
            Have you given that ANY thought? They really are just going through motions. If we protected the borders, it would be better.

            CAUTION! Disagreeing with the last statement puts your OWN at risk, because airports work on the SAME principle. The borders are the gate around the airport, and the security areas to get into the gate area.

            It's funny how the left trumpets the sanctity of the SC when its decisions go their way, and derides it when decisions go the other way.

            The right does too, I suppose.

            I say...

            You're right, hardly anyone agrees with the SC all the time and they are not beloved by me in any way shape or form.
            Actually, the Supreme court is SUPPOSED to be biased with the right because BOTH are supposed to judge constitutionally.

            I wouldn't be surprised after seeing what's been going on and how his statement is being abused, Jefferson is probably sorry he made that statement.
            NOPE! This is EXACTLY what he was talking about!

            I don't think you're talking about some peaceful flower power type of protest movement are you?
            There comes a time when flowers are no match for guns. Should we all go back to the civil war and have the RIGHT fight with flowers? The south would win, and this country would be VERY different!

            Who else but the citizens, the local and state governments, the feds and of course, the SC.
            Everything has a weak link. Who would think everything would swing so far the wrong way.

            As a black person, if I were living in America during the 1850s it would depend on where I lived. Of course if in the south then the laws would have been terrible for me - if I were of the 10% of the negro population that lived in the north - that's another story.
            NOPE! REMEMBER! The north would be fighting with flowers!


            You'll never hear me say a construction worker should be paid like a MD or vice versa. If I somehow gave you that impression - please forgive.
            On the contrary! You keep talking about paying less for healthcare, etc..., and seem to be OK with devices being taxed, etc...


            The abolitionists didn't do much to end slavery even though they made a lot of noise and trouble for some people.

            It was the south trying to succeed from the union that led to the end of slavery in America.
            So the people died for NOTHING!?!?!?? I mean if slavery were allowed everywhere, they wouldn't have tried to succeed. So your logic doesn't even have any merit. The driving force of both parties was SLAVERY! One wanted to end it, and one wanted to keep it. Abraham linkoln made that CLEAR in the emancipation proclamation!

            The Emancipation Proclamation

            And what of the gettysburg address starting and ending with the idea of freedom. WHAT freedom? Or rather WHO'S!

            Lincoln, “Gettysburg Address,” Speech Text |


            Who knows how much longer slavery would have continued if the civil war had never happened? It may have still been in force up until this day.
            EXACTLY!

            Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
            Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

            You said...

            sometimes[/I], they are. Some of us think that the fewer mandates the government forces on the citizens that it derives power from, the better. Others, obviously, think the opposite.

            I say...

            I don't have a problem with as few mandates as possible either and anyone characterizing me or most people on the left as a mandate hungry mob would not be accurate in their characterization.
            The difference between us being what you consider necessary vs. what I consider necessary.


            You said...

            "(1) Why is it that some people think that liberty is 'not conducive to 21st century society'? I think a more accurate statement is that "some civil liberties are not conducive to my ideas of 21st century society."

            I say...

            For example, in the age of terrorism, some people still have a big problem with being checked at airports before they get near boarding a plane - I don't.

            When I get on an airplane I want to feel safe verses some people getting their way and allowing people on planes without checking them etc.
            I don't have a problem with boarding checks. What I do have a problem with is going overboard in the attempt to create the illusion of safety, such as restrictions on the amounts of liquids in toiletries, etc.

            Even you, I would imagine, think there's a line that doesn't need to be crossed. I mean, to ensure absolute safety, wouldn't it make sense to have everyone fly naked and submit to cavity searches before boarding?

            So there are tradeoffs, limits to what we will do or submit to in the interests of safety. Are the limits practical? A lot of people don't think so.

            You said...

            It's funny how the left trumpets the sanctity of the SC when its decisions go their way, and derides it when decisions go the other way.

            The right does too, I suppose.

            I say...

            You're right, hardly anyone agrees with the SC all the time and they are not beloved by me in any way shape or form.
            LOL, I see we can agree on one thing

            You said...

            Something to chew on - I'm sure you're familiar with Thomas Jefferson's quip concerning the 'tree of Liberty'.

            There is a large group of people in the US - and the number seems to be growing - that are very concerned that the pendulum is swinging too far to the "needs of the many" side of the line, away from the rights of the individual that the Constitution and (supposedly) the SC is supposed to protect.

            That pendulum can swing only so far without repercussions. The 2nd Amendment is there for a reason, and it ain't hunting, and it ain't to provide the US with a standing army.


            I say...

            I wouldn't be surprised after seeing what's been going on and how his statement is being abused, Jefferson is probably sorry he made that statement.

            There are way too many people IMHO, who think we've come close to the pendulum swinging in favor of violence to solve our nation's problems.

            And before you counter with who's talking about violence?, you said this above...

            "That pendulum can swing only so far without repercussions.

            The 2nd Amendment is there for a reason, and it ain't hunting, and it ain't to provide the US with a standing army."

            I don't think you're talking about some peaceful flower power type of protest movement are you?
            Nope, I wasn't talking about flower power.

            I find your attempt to misconstrue Jefferson's thoughts on rebellion and revolution mildly amusing, but understandable given your evident fondness for big government.

            Jefferson wasn't the least ambiguous when he wrote his words (do you really believe he would be 'sorry he wrote them'?):
            The people can not be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. We have had 13. states independant 11. years. There has been one rebellion. That comes to one rebellion in a century and a half for each state. What country ever existed a century and a half without a rebellion? And what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it's natural manure.
            I think it's pretty obvious what he meant when he wrote that.

            You said...

            Who decides which of the two - the 'needs' of the group, or the rights of the individual - are the more important?

            I say...

            Who else but the citizens, the local and state governments, the feds and of course, the SC.
            And when there are disagreements? You expect that people should be sheep, and submit without question even when their liberties are being curtailed by the desires of the 'many', because "it's the law, get over it." There comes a time when people won't simply get over it.

            If that scares you, it should. It is exactly what Jefferson was talking about: "And what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance?"

            You said...

            I wonder, just as an intellectual question, if you would maintain the same "it's the law, so get over it" attitude if you were living in the 1850's.

            I say...

            As a black person, if I were living in America during the 1850s it would depend on where I lived. Of course if in the south then the laws would have been terrible for me - if I were of the 10% of the negro population that lived in the north - that's another story.

            You said...

            It was people who did not support the federal government and SC decisions that were the driving force behind the ultimate abolition of slavery in the US.

            I say...

            The abolitionists didn't do much to end slavery even though they made a lot of noise and trouble for some people.

            It was the south trying to succeed from the union that led to the end of slavery in America.
            We could get into an endless discussion about the actual reasons the south wanted to leave the union - slavery was just one of many, all lumped under the umbrella of the southern states feeling that they were getting the short end of the economic stick.

            Regardless - my point was that a great many people - and more than one state government - stood in defiance of the federal government and SC decisions when they believed it was the right thing to do. You seem to downplay the importance of those acts.

            Who knows how much longer slavery would have continued if the civil war had never happened? It may have still been in force up until this day.
            You can't really believe that? The seeds of the end of slavery in this country were sown long before the civil war ever started. One way or another, it would have ended.

            I don't know how we got so far off topic...but thanks for keeping it civil.
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            The 2nd Amendment, 1789 - The Original Homeland Security.

            Gun control means never having to say, "I missed you."

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            • Profile picture of the author seasoned
              Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

              The seeds of the end of slavery in this country were sown long before the civil war ever started. One way or another, it would have ended.
              That is certainly true to a degree. Slavery started as an outgrowth of a system that was probably actually a GOOD idea for some. The idea was to work for an employer for a limited time and basically get the compensation at the end of the term, and it was guaranteed by the country. They were indentured servants. But someone tried to game the system, before the US was even started, and basically THEY took the compensation and the idea was the person would be a flat out slave not subject to any protections, etc....

              So it wasn't even started by the US, and the constitution never legitimized it, or even really mentioned it. It merely says that the federal government, in paying benefits to the states, would count a non free person(Not all were slaves), in the census, as 3/5ths of a person.

              Even George Washington disliked the idea, and had it in his will that all the slaves should be freed. For all we know, he may have treated them well.

              Lincoln was only in his first term when he started the civil war. It was obviously something he considered important. Apparently a lot of people felt the same, and many were injured badly and/or died. JWB shot lincoln(after lincoln won his second term on a landslide on a platform of passing the 13th amendment, and in a party that was vehemently against slavery), expecting to be lauded and apparently felt STRONGLY that lincoln had changed the country in some major way that alienated many.

              Still, without a war, we would likely have two countries. And who is to say that the south would ever have abandoned slavery. HECK, we later fought a similar kind of war, though it was apparently about trade restrictions, honor, and borders, and we LOST that one, so now we have canada. No offense to canada, just using it as an example!

              Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Yeah, I mentioned a LOT about various US regulations. I had one customer that had a team try to do the impossible. Because of the FDA, they needed about 3 times the resources to do a certain task. They had a bug that needed to be fixed, but COULDN'T be! It had to be approved by the FDA! Anyway, that takes too long and is too complicated. That team dida good job,but there is a mechanism to determine when it fails. Computers have no intelligence, so a PERSON has to go through and reprocess things. They hired a new person, primarily for THAT!

    THAT raises the cost of healthcare a bit. OK, some may not pay a penny, and some may pay a bit, but it's an expense.

    I have to use a device every month. ALL such devices are easy to use. They work the same way and, by their NATURE, will be calibrated reasonably. STILL, even ones that are known to be precise, have track records of a decade or more, and are used by hospitals are FORBIDDEN to be used by a patient.

    And I am not even getting into the bans, lawsuits, GAG demands, and tests, that the FDA does or requires. Most actually HURT the public! Banning tryptophan? Making it illegal to say that vitamins prevent and cure diseases they are KNOWN to prevent and cure, preventing competition? Having such a broad reach? INCREDIBLE!

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author dapaleezy
    These health care companies don't care about the people the only care about the money and until that stops the problem will always remain
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  • Profile picture of the author gaytorbayt
    I know this thread is old and I didn't read the entire thread so I don't know if it was mentioned or not.

    My scenario - my identity was stolen and used to the tune of close to $200,000.00,,,,, and I'm 100% disabled.

    What's relevant to the thread is whomever appeared to be buying pills and possibly reselling them, to the tune of about $18,000.00.

    That's medical bills.On my credit record.

    I'm on Medicare.

    It took me about 3 years to learn not to pay someone else to help you get through something like that and about a month to figure it out myself.

    In any event, I'm in the process of closing on the house I'm buying and guess what my mortgage broker told me when he ran my credit?

    I'll paraphrase because his language is colorful not unlike my own.


    "I could give a ham strung dogs hind leg about the medical bills on your credit history. Nobody pays attention to them anyway."

    Since 2009 no one has come after me for the medical bills. No one has tried to sue me.

    I drive a 2013 Impala and am buying a house. With my income and my g/f's who is also disabled, we clear around $3,000 a month.

    On my own I got my credit score from 580 something to 640,,, and the medical bills are still there on my report.

    They'll go away in 7 years from the time they were first reported.

    If they show back up, dispute them and they'll go away. Bill collectors have the nasty habit of selling accounts and trying to relist them. Let them know you'll report them to the proper authorities that they are claiming invalid debt to Transunion etc and it'll stop post haste.

    If [medical] bill collectors are calling you, write them a letter directing them to only contact you by mail. When they send mail to you, file 13 it.

    Keep in mind, you didn't create the problems with our health care industry. Politicians did.

    Not a plug for the site actually but I have to mention it. Credit Kharma dot com is your friend, especially since it's free.

    I dunno what state the OP lives in, hopefully a blue one but there is always disability and Medicaid.

    My g/f has been disabled her entire life and is on Medicaid. In the blue states and a few red states [very few] it's not bad, and it's free. I know Ohio, Kentucky and Florida where I am now Medicaid isn't bad. In Texas, Arkansas, Louisiana and Alabama it's a slow death.

    So far for us, economy wise and all, Florida is our best bet.

    I'm not gonna get into Politics any further than I have on this one post on this forum because I wanna hang around awhile.

    If anyone is a member of Politix, look for Tolpuddle and you'll see why. That would be me.
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