Gay couples marry in England

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Not really sure what I think about this news. I am almost certainly in the minority on the same-sex marriage conundrum, in that I am neither for nor against. Living in a country here that does not allow same-sex weddings. And the sun still rises in the east ... Your views? (... without getting too political of course). Good for Old Blighty or not?

GAY couples across England and Wales have said "I do" as a law authorising same-sex marriage came into effect, the final stage in a long fight for equality.

Following the first marriages on Saturday amid a supposed race to wed, Prime Minister David Cameron tweeted: "Congratulations to all same-sex couples getting married today - I wish you every possible happiness for the future."

The Conservative party leader also described the change as an "important moment for our country", and a rainbow flag flew above government offices in London in celebration.
Gay couples marry in England | News.com.au
  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    I've never understood why people get so bent out of shape over this issue. I can see why marriage would be important - the legal aspects, for example.

    I don't think it's my business who anyone else marries - doesn't affect me. The more happy families we have - of any persuasion - the better the world is for everyone in my opinion.
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    • Profile picture of the author David Braybrooke
      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

      I've never understood why people get so bent out of shape over this issue. I can see why marriage would be important - the legal aspects, for example.

      I don't think it's my business who anyone else marries - doesn't affect me. The more happy families we have - of any persuasion - the better the world is for everyone in my opinion.
      Thank you Kay. Perhaps the salient question to ask then would be if common law marriage really does in fact lead to happy family situations? Based on divorce court evidence I'm not so sure actually. And if same-sex couples should be allowed to marry then why not allow other forms of marriage too? Such as bigamy, group marriage etc.

      The only way to counterbalance the law, in my opinion, is to not allow same-sex marriage to be legalised in all countries and territories. Although exactly whom others marry may not directly effect us as individuals, the changing of a country's marital laws will change the structure and fabric of the communities in which we all live. And side-effects from these stated changes may in fact affect us, in ways that are difficult to foresee.

      Having said that, best wishes to all the newly marrieds.
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  • Profile picture of the author socialentry
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    But what if a man wants to get married to a balloon?
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    • Profile picture of the author David Braybrooke
      Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

      But what if a man wants to get married to a balloon?
      Exactly. Where should the line be drawn?
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        Happy family situations come from the people in the family - not from pieces of paper or social limitations on who can marry whom. I used to have reservations about same sex marriages but then I worked with two same sex couples who had adopted children. They have strong marriages - and happy, well cared for children. How can that be wrong?

        "Bigamy" (to me at least) implies deception as it's usually kept in the shadows.

        I don't have a problem with polygamy as long as the partners involved are choosing that path.

        But what if a man wants to get married to a balloon?
        I hate to burst your balloon...but I don't think it would last.
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        • Profile picture of the author David Braybrooke
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          "Bigamy" (to me at least) implies deception as it's usually kept in the shadows.
          Thanks Kay.

          My sourced definition of "bigamy":
          The state of having two (legal or illegal) spouses simultaneously
          A second marriage
          Source: Define bigamy | Dictionary and Thesaurus

          The 'legal' variation is not as commonly used.

          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          Happy family situations come from the people in the family - not from pieces of paper or social limitations on who can marry whom. I used to have reservations about same sex marriages but then I worked with two same sex couples who had adopted children. They have strong marriages - and happy, well cared for children. How can that be wrong?
          No arguments. Just not sure here that the act of legally marrying someone will necessarily lead to a 'happy family' situation. Of course, marriage works well for some and not for others. But will altered marital laws serve the greater good in terms of social cohesion, in the widest sense? We shall see.
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        • Profile picture of the author socialentry
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          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          d
          I hate to burst your balloon...but I don't think it would last.
          What about a woman with a tree then ? :confused:

          Or what if a man wants to marry two or three or (heaven forbid) four or more women?
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            What about a woman with a tree then?
            Yeah. That's a huge social issue...
            Or what if a man wants to marry two or three or (heaven forbid) four or more women?
            Do those women want to marry him, knowing his other arrangements? If so, how is that anyone else's business?

            Paul
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            • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
              Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

              What about a woman with a tree then ? :confused:

              Or what if a man wants to marry two or three or (heaven forbid) four or more women?
              True a politician in AU, raised the same issue, this will lead to people demanding that they be allowed to marry a sheep, etc.


              What do we do then???????

              We can argue equality, etc, but bottom line is it is sick behavior that if televised, will f*** up society a little more!


              Equal financial rights is fair enough, but twisting something that has been established for a couple of thousand years, not so sure!


              But l suppose the socialpaths have messed up society so much it doesn't really matter!


              Knock on wood! :rolleyes:


              Shane
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              • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
                Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

                True a politician in AU, raised the same issue, this will lead to people demanding that they be allowed to marry a sheep, etc.
                You sure that wasn't New Zealand?

                All joking aside, that is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.

                Wanting to marry a woman doesn't lead to anyone wanting to marry a sheep, so why would wanting to marry someone of the same sex lead anyone to wanting to marry another species.

                It's a similar argument to the one banning pot for personal use - because it automatically leads to people using heroin.

                Dumb. Dumb. Dumb.

                Oh yes, and I know of the politician you're referring to. He's one of the greatest thinkers of the 13th Century.
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                • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
                  Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

                  You sure that wasn't New Zealand?

                  All joking aside, that is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.

                  Wanting to marry a woman doesn't lead to anyone wanting to marry a sheep, so why would wanting to marry someone of the same sex lead anyone to wanting to marry another species.

                  It's a similar argument to the one banning pot for personal use - because it automatically leads to people using heroin.

                  Dumb. Dumb. Dumb.

                  Oh yes, and I know of the politician you're referring to. He's one of the greatest thinkers of the 13th Century.

                  I rest my case! :rolleyes:

                  http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/1917304


                  Unless someone can be certified as having a disorder, then eventually seriously weird weddings will take place.

                  And seriously weird future celebrities will marry ? on tv, and society will go one step further down the gurgler!


                  Equality sounds good in principle, but it also undermines social/economic structure!


                  Or given enough time anything goes! :rolleyes:


                  I couldn't really say whether an individual will marry and later on in life marry something weird?

                  But bottom line is society needs rules or it will fall apart!


                  Just do a YouTube search, you will find plenty of nutters!


                  I can guarantee you if you look hard enough the nutters will show up.


                  So it isn't a question of whether they exist, but should they be allowed to marry ?.


                  In a civilized society, no, but the way ours is going, possible! :rolleyes:


                  When l see a marriage between a man and a sheep, that is the day l will slit my throat!


                  Shane

                  PS there is a fully grown man who dresses like a baby and still has his mother take care of him. And if l remember correctly is still breast fed! As l said, there are f*** weird people about. So we need rules! :rolleyes:
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                  • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
                    Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

                    Equality sounds good in principle, but it also undermines social/economic structure!
                    Must be a pretty shaky structure if it can be undermined by equality.


                    .
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                • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                  Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

                  You sure that wasn't New Zealand?

                  All joking aside, that is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.

                  Wanting to marry a woman doesn't lead to anyone wanting to marry a sheep, so why would wanting to marry someone of the same sex lead anyone to wanting to marry another species.
                  There is a direct correlation. Wanting to marry the same sex makes you want to marry a different species. Just like wanting to marry the opposite sex makes you want to marry a sheep of the opposite sex. It's basic science.:rolleyes:

                  Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

                  It's a similar argument to the one banning pot for personal use - because it automatically leads to people using heroin.

                  Dumb. Dumb. Dumb.
                  No. It's even dumber than that. It like saying that smoking pot leads to wanting to marry a sheep/balloon/tree.


                  Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

                  Oh yes, and I know of the politician you're referring to. He's one of the greatest thinkers of the 13th Century.


                  Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                  Speaking as a balloon I resent that. I have built in contraception.
                  Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

                  You have an inflated opinion of yourself.

                  .
                  My God, that was funny!


                  By the way, my opinion on this gay marriage thing? I quote the Good Book...
                  "It's Adam and Eve, not Edith and Steve". I think that clears it up.

                  And it's a proven scientific fact that gay couples give birth to gay children. Imperious Rex!
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                  • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
                    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                    No. It's even dumber than that. It like saying that smoking pot leads to wanting to marry a sheep/balloon/tree.
                    Depending on the strength of the pot, that one might actually be true.
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                    • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                      Us balloons actually don't often get married, we like latex fetishists but generally are attracted to blow up rubber dolls. Now I know your going to ask me "male or female ones" We are Bi/flexible.

                      We are fun to be with and you always see us at parties.

                      Thinking about that, now I'm pumped.
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                      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                        Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                        Us balloons actually don't often get married, we like latex fetishists but generally are attracted to blow up rubber dolls. Now I know your going to ask me "male or female ones" We are Bi/flexible.

                        We are fun to be with and you always see us at parties.

                        Thinking about that, now I'm pumped.
                        Shouldn't that be Bi/flatable
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                        • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
                          Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                          Speaking as a balloon I resent that. I have built in contraception.
                          You are full of hot air!!!!

                          Sorry to burst your bubble!!!! :rolleyes:


                          I suppose that sex between two balloons, can be explained as...

                          pop goes the weasel!!!

                          I know that l am blowing this out of all proportion, but l gotta have some fun! He, he!


                          Shane
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                  • Profile picture of the author socialentry
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                    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                    There is a direct correlation. Wanting to marry the same sex makes you want to marry a different species. Just like wanting to marry the opposite sex makes you want to marry a sheep of the opposite sex. It's basic science.:rolleyes:
                    but why you're side stepping the question? :confused:
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                    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                      Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

                      but why you're side stepping the question? :confused:
                      What question?

                      I didn't know I was side stepping the questions. I thought I was making fun of the answers.


                      Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                      Speaking as a balloon I resent that. I have built in contraception.
                      I just now got that. Duh!
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                      • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
                        Same sex marriage is one issue and then having children in that marriage by adoption or other methods brings up another issue.

                        The child doesn't get a choice and when I went to school people were viciously bullied for having ginger hair, wearing glasses and many other minor things. Children who were labelled gay, sadly, were bullied badly and they weren't even gay.

                        It's all well and good adults saying it's only fair on the gay couple but kids are kids and they can be very cruel and if it's hard to explain to your kids about the birds and the bee's it's going to be a hell of a challenge to tell young Jonny why his Friend Clive has a male Mummy and Daddy.

                        I'm not saying they shouldn't have them I'm just saying is it right/fair on the child to be deprived of 'standard' parents and can anyone guarantee they'll be bully free at school, which takes up a great deal of a childs younger years?

                        Just an interesting thought I was having as it's already going on - Gay health: having children - Live Well - NHS Choices. Indeed having children in a gay relationship is fine and dandy, it's getting married that has been resisted for so long.

                        I find that quite odd.
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                        • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
                          Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

                          Same sex marriage is one issue and then having children in that marriage by adoption or other methods brings up another issue.

                          The child doesn't get a choice and when I went to school people were viciously bullied for having ginger hair, wearing glasses and many other minor things. Children who were labelled gay, sadly, were bullied badly and they weren't even gay.

                          It's all well and good adults saying it's only fair on the gay couple but kids are kids and they can be very cruel and if it's hard to explain to your kids about the birds and the bee's it's going to be a hell of a challenge to tell young Jonny why his Friend Clive has a male Mummy and Daddy.

                          I'm not saying they shouldn't have them I'm just saying is it right/fair on the child to be deprived of 'standard' parents and can anyone guarantee they'll be bully free at school, which takes up a great deal of a childs younger years?

                          Just an interesting thought I was having as it's already going on - Gay health: having children - Live Well - NHS Choices. Indeed having children in a gay relationship is fine and dandy, it's getting married that has been resisted for so long.

                          I find that quite odd.
                          Probably because it is a legal right to be able to adopt children!

                          You only need to look at celebrates going to Africa, seems to be a shop over there. Enough said! :rolleyes:


                          Seems like a can of legal worms?


                          If two women get married or not, taking their child, to a school event will, as you have said, most likely set the child up for years of abuse, etc.

                          And if the child commits suicide as a result, well?


                          Equality on the surface, tension and maybe fear below!


                          Some gay related things in society, like movies, tend to help educate people, but other events, push it back!


                          And what happens with the man and sheep, with child, when it becomes legal in ten years?

                          He takes his family to an open day, and the child is pretty much guaranteed to be picked on to death!


                          In some cases offering help is better than allowing equality across the board!


                          Shane
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                          • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
                            Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

                            Probably because it is a legal right to be able to adopt children!

                            You only need to look at celebrates going to Africa, seems to be a shop over there. Enough said! :rolleyes:
                            As I said, if a child goes to school and is white with black parents, most kids wouldn't care, besides, there will be other kids of mixed race parents etc.

                            My point Shane is how will you stop the bullying and how will you explain to the other children that it's quite normal for Clive's Mummy and Daddy to be blokes?

                            I'm not even talking remotely about legal rights here Shane, I'm talking about the human rights of a the child that doesn't get any choice in the matter.

                            If two women get married or not, taking their child, to a school event will, as you have said, most likely set the child up for years of abuse, etc.

                            And if the child commits suicide as a result, well?
                            This is what concerns me and this is what I've never seen debated, just endless shall we/shall we not on the marriage issue.

                            Some gay related things in society, like movies, tend to help educate people, but other events, push it back!
                            I agree. I also think kids can be cruel and will pick on others for the slightest thing. Clive's Mum and Dad being chaps is a little more than a slight thing.

                            And what happens with the man and sheep, with child, when it becomes legal in ten years?
                            Hopefully even the British government will draw the line somewhere. I hope.

                            If Clive was the only person in the school like that, it will be very hard to explain to the other kids and very hard to control some of them picking on him.

                            Heaven only knows how the sex education teacher handles that one and explains to Clive what Daddy and Daddy do and why the other kids parents do it differently and get results too.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Alast
                          Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

                          Same sex marriage is one issue and then having children in that marriage by adoption or other methods brings up another issue.

                          The child doesn't get a choice and when I went to school people were viciously bullied for having ginger hair, wearing glasses and many other minor things. Children who were labelled gay, sadly, were bullied badly and they weren't even gay.

                          It's all well and good adults saying it's only fair on the gay couple but kids are kids and they can be very cruel and if it's hard to explain to your kids about the birds and the bee's it's going to be a hell of a challenge to tell young Jonny why his Friend Clive has a male Mummy and Daddy.

                          I'm not saying they shouldn't have them I'm just saying is it right/fair on the child to be deprived of 'standard' parents and can anyone guarantee they'll be bully free at school, which takes up a great deal of a childs younger years?

                          Just an interesting thought I was having as it's already going on - Gay health: having children - Live Well - NHS Choices. Indeed having children in a gay relationship is fine and dandy, it's getting married that has been resisted for so long.

                          I find that quite odd.
                          Same sex couples shouldn't be denied the right to have/adopt children simply because straight couples don't teach their children to respect other's. I find that absurd and quite ironic.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
                            Originally Posted by Alast View Post

                            Same sex couples shouldn't be denied the right to have/adopt children simply because straight couples don't teach their children to respect other's. I find that absurd and quite ironic.
                            That's a theory though isn't it. It's not real life.

                            Put it this way. At school I was bullied for wearing a hearing aid. Teachers got involved and the bullying went beyond the school grounds. There was no one to help me but me. Luckily I was quite handy and quite happy to look after myself, so I did and the bullying eventually stopped.

                            Admittedly times have changed since then but at my school, unless that kid with the gay parents was one hard bloke, I'd be surprised if they survived let alone stayed at that school.

                            In a utopian world I wish it was like that too. It's not though and no matter how you see it, kids are cruel and when away from their parents, at school, under the influence of peer pressure, maybe just maybe all the teachings of respect in the world might not help.

                            Also, I didn't say anywhere that gay couples should be denied children. More to the point, they are not. I am merely saying, seeing as the child is the only person without any say in the matter, perhaps it would have been nice to have discussed this with the same intensity that's gone into whether or not gays should marry.

                            Marriage is just marriage. A child's life is quite a bit more. That's all I'm saying. I care more about the kids than the right to marry.

                            Does that make sense Alast? I never said anywhere they should be denied the right to have kids.
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                            • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
                              Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

                              As I said, if a child goes to school and is white with black parents, most kids wouldn't care, besides, there will be other kids of mixed race parents etc.

                              My point Shane is how will you stop the bullying and how will you explain to the other children that it's quite normal for Clive's Mummy and Daddy to be blokes?

                              I'm not even talking remotely about legal rights here Shane, I'm talking about the human rights of a the child that doesn't get any choice in the matter.

                              This is what concerns me and this is what I've never seen debated, just endless shall we/shall we not on the marriage issue.

                              I agree. I also think kids can be cruel and will pick on others for the slightest thing. Clive's Mum and Dad being chaps is a little more than a slight thing.

                              Hopefully even the British government will draw the line somewhere. I hope.

                              If Clive was the only person in the school like that, it will be very hard to explain to the other kids and very hard to control some of them picking on him.

                              Heaven only knows how the sex education teacher handles that one and explains to Clive what Daddy and Daddy do and why the other kids parents do it differently and get results too.

                              Yep, l believe if it was openly discussed, arguments would ensue and no resolution would be reached!

                              It is a bit like Global Warming, some get on their soap boxes and spout complex science, but ignore obvious inconsistencies!

                              When an argument gets emotional, as gay couples having the right to have children would get, it is only hard science or unbiased stats that would resolve it!

                              If a civilized society allows the sheep thing then that is a clear cut example that that society is f*** up, or is past the point of no return.


                              But l agree people discuss it but only the surface issue. Probably explains why Julia, (previous prime minister) dismissed this issue on medical grounds.

                              Or went with stats, showing that guy couple children are worse off. That probably covers the picking on issue as well?


                              Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

                              That's a theory though isn't it. It's not real life.

                              Put it this way. At school I was bullied for wearing a hearing aid. Teachers got involved and the bullying went beyond the school grounds. There was no one to help me but me. Luckily I was quite handy and quite happy to look after myself, so I did and the bullying eventually stopped.

                              Admittedly times have changed since then but at my school, unless that kid with the gay parents was one hard bloke, I'd be surprised if they survived let alone stayed at that school.

                              In a utopian world I wish it was like that too. It's not though and no matter how you see it, kids are cruel and when away from their parents, at school, under the influence of peer pressure, maybe just maybe all the teachings of respect in the world might not help.

                              Marriage is just marriage. A child's life is quite a bit more. That's all I'm saying. I care more about the kids than the right to marry.

                              Does that make sense Alast? I never said anywhere they should be denied the right to have kids.
                              Yep, l was picked on in high school and primary as well, for being thin, or attractive????

                              Well l had a group of women pick on me for years on end til l snapped, and went to the headmaster to sort it out. Thankfully it was fixed, but then they started on one of my friends.

                              He left that high school a week later!


                              Yep, we can discuss this to death, but have one open day, and the child's quality of life will most likely take a turn for the worse!


                              But of course some gay, married women will get pregnant, then what????


                              We make it illegal for them to go out a public event at their school, so the child's life is save. Then we have parties, etc.


                              I fear that we will think, oh, yeah, we are being civilized by allowing gay marriage, but long term when we compare stats of guy against non-gay, l would expect a not so rosy picture!


                              Shane
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                              • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
                                My point is just that I've never really heard this discussed. I don't think they should be denied having children at all but if they live in such a ball of cotton wool that they think their children will be treated just like the rest, that's the problem, they will get treated like the rest and a lot of those kids are bullied for the most trivial of things.

                                Bullying does happen at school and Mum and Dad are not there to protect you.

                                It's a sad world and we shouldn't bury our heads in the sand over it. School goes on for a long time and for a great deal of time every day, you only need one or two bullies to make a kids life hell and if that kid is the only kid in the school with gay parents, he/she will need to be one think skinned little kid.
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                                • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                  Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

                                  Bullying does happen at school and Mum and Dad are not there to protect you.
                                  Richard; That's a legitimate concern, and a reality.

                                  And this is going to sound terrible...Change is painful. Nobody wants it to be painful, but it is.

                                  Remember when you were picked on if you were of mixed race? If your parents were the wrong religion? If your parents were poor? If the clothes they got you weren't the right style?

                                  For a while, they'll now be picked on because their parents are the same sex. But soon, that will be accepted too.

                                  And there will be a new reason to pick on kids..just like always.
                                  Same sex marriages will get accepted in our culture, the same as mixed race marriages were.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
                                    I completely agree Claude and I think, after a while like you say, something else will come along.

                                    Having said that, in Britain there have always been ginger kids, deaf kids, spotty kids and so on.

                                    They and I were still bullied though.

                                    I guess I'm still saying that bullying is bullying and it doesn't change much. I hope you are right and change takes place but I also think if they still bully people for the same reason they have for centuries that it may well be accepted by society but will it be accepted by the kids?

                                    I don't know but for the kids in gay marriages, I certainly hope so and what you said is not terrible nor does it sound so, it's a very good point I hope happens.

                                    Having said that, we're being serious with each other which does seem odd. If Riffle wades in I'm going to assume this is a dream.
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                                    • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
                                      Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

                                      I completely agree Claude and I think, after a while like you say, something else will come along.

                                      Having said that, in Britain there have always been ginger kids, deaf kids, spotty kids and so on.

                                      They and I were still bullied though.

                                      I guess I'm still saying that bullying is bullying and it doesn't change much. I hope you are right and change takes place but I also think if they still bully people for the same reason they have for centuries that it may well be accepted by society but will it be accepted by the kids?

                                      I don't know but for the kids in gay marriages, I certainly hope so and what you said is not terrible nor does it sound so, it's a very good point I hope happens.

                                      Having said that, we're being serious with each other which does seem odd. If Riffle wades in I'm going to assume this is a dream.
                                      Sounds like we need gay schools, if we want this change!

                                      Which will no doubt, attract violence, etc.


                                      Well gay schools and a Buffy security guard out front? :rolleyes:


                                      Hmmm, if Claude posts, Riffle is sure to follow!


                                      Yep, in ten years time, we will see someone stepping on Mars, and the first inter species school! Dred the thought!

                                      Give your misses hay while you work!


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                                    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                                      Richard,
                                      I hope you are right and change takes place but I also think if they still bully people for the same reason they have for centuries that it may well be accepted by society but will it be accepted by the kids?
                                      It will follow the same pattern most of these issues have.

                                      I remember in the 60s and 70s, people said the same thing about mixed race marriages. It started with "They'll be harassed," which was countered by "If they're willing to accept that, how is it our business to tell them they can't?" Then it became "What about the kids? They'll get picked on, and be subject to new kinds of bigotry."

                                      While I can't talk about the whole country, the amount of that kind of bullying which I personally saw was minimal. It happened, and it wasn't pretty when it did, but it wasn't the sort of problem some folks predicted. More to the point, in many areas of the US such bullying would lead to the bully being ostracized by his/her peers.

                                      When something is so common that virtually everyone has friends who are involved in it, it's no longer a safe basis for schoolyard abuse. You offend too many people, and the social impact becomes severe. When it reaches that saturation level, the kids in grade school are the first generation for whom it's a non-issue.

                                      The question is, do we use ignorance as an excuse to perpetuate ignorance?

                                      If we do, we create an environment in which we cede total control of progress to the uninformed, the bigoted, and the vicious.


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                                      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                                        Shane,
                                        Sounds like we need gay schools, if we want this change!
                                        "Separate but equal?"

                                        Ummm... No. Been done. Spectacular failure.


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                            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                              The child doesn't get a choice
                              Children don't get a choice of who their parents are. There have always been bullies - and kids who had to deal with bullies. That's real life as a kid and it hasn't changed.

                              Denying a child a loving family because he might be bullied or teased - doesn't seem like a good trade to me. Same sex parents are gaining acceptance rapidly - and so are their kids.
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by socialentry View Post
        But what if a man wants to get married to a balloon?
        Originally Posted by David Braybrooke View Post

        Exactly. Where should the line be drawn?
        I wish I had married a balloon. Would have saved me a lot of trouble. One prick ... all gone.
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        • Profile picture of the author DireStraits
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          I wish I had married a balloon. Would have saved me a lot of trouble. One prick ... all gone.
          I'm reliably (?) informed by many a middle-aged chap that it isn't so much the "prick" as what comes after it that is the real marriage killer. Something or other about ballooning.

          Gay couples seem curiously exempt from this, though. Which could be one of the reasons these pesky heteros are so aghast at the prospect of making marriage inclusive - the disparity in divorce rates will make them look bad while the LGBT community falls over itself to accuse the frivolous bigots of making a mockery of the institution of marriage.

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    • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
      Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

      But what if a man wants to get married to a balloon?
      Speaking as a balloon I resent that. I have built in contraception.
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      • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
        Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

        Speaking as a balloon I resent that.
        You have an inflated opinion of yourself.


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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Shane,
          Equality sounds good in principle, but it also undermines social/economic structure!
          Social structures are arbitrary creations, and change and evolve over time.

          The very definition and purpose of marriage has evolved and changed repeatedly over the centuries. If you doubt this, consider: The early Catholic church performed same-sex marriages.

          Even the current Pope says they should not be dismissed out of hand. Given that the Catholic Church is the force behind the decree that marriages should exist for purposes of procreation (the basis for most arguments against gay marriage), that's a rather significant shift.

          When the leader of one of the most conservative organizations in the world suggests a bit more tolerance, perhaps it should be seen as a sign that we need to rethink 13th century edicts.


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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    This seems to be a real issue in the states. When two same sex people live together, if they can't marry they lose a lot of financial security that is available to traditional couples. I don't see that as fair. I don't think the state should have a say outside of age considerations. As far as church weddings - if the religion is against it, then maybe it's time to find a church that isn't against it instead of trying to change religions. Wars get fought over that and we don't need wars.

    I am with Kay on the definition of bigomy. Over here, it means illicit marriages. Most people are completely unaware that their partner is married to someone else, too.

    I don't like that one. If there were a way to make sure that all partners were 100% happy with the situation and there was no force used, I wouldn't care either way. About the time people started trying to force the partners into polygamous marriages, then it would have to stop again. Basically that's what happened to polygamy here was that it was mostly a practice of a particular religion and women were being forced into marriages they didn't want to be in. That's wrong - I don't care what the excuse.
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  • Profile picture of the author taskemann
    For my sake, you can be what you want and marry what you want as long as you keep it for yourself and leave kids and animals alone.
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  • Profile picture of the author Uirsesdig
    Is there for sake they have the love for each other, its better to respect them.
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    • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
      Originally Posted by Uirsesdig View Post

      Is there for sake they have the love for each other, its better to respect them.
      Respect a sheep and a man in wedlock? :rolleyes:


      I would need to get blood poisoned drunk first!


      But l would respect the sheep!


      And respect the man after seeing him end up in a padded cell, or ten feet under! :rolleyes:


      Shane
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  • Profile picture of the author DireStraits
    It's not the principle of same-sex marriages that bothers me. As an atheist libertarian to whom marriage means absolute squat, I have no real axe to grind either way.

    Secular weddings have gone on for some time, so it seems as though nobody has a monopoly over the institution. Extending the right to same-sex couples seems more than fair.

    What absolutely wouldn't be fair is a successful court challenge that forces the hand of any individual, church or religious organisation to partake in same-sex ceremonies against their will. Some say it won't happen, but I'm certainly not alone in having reservations about that.

    Only time will tell...
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    • Profile picture of the author Midnight Oil
      Originally Posted by DireStraits View Post

      What absolutely wouldn't be fair is a successful court challenge that forces the hand of any individual, church or religious organisation to partake in same-sex ceremonies against their will. Some say it won't happen, but I'm certainly not alone in having reservations about that.

      Only time will tell...
      It's being worked on.

      Millionaire gay couple is suing to force a church to hold their wedding | The Libertarian Republic
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      • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        Children don't get a choice of who their parents are. There have always been bullies - and kids who had to deal with bullies. That's real life as a kid and it hasn't changed.
        I'm aware of that. Many thanks.

        I went out for a picnic with my Dad once but they had a cuddle and I came home with my Mum. I had no choice in that matter.



        Denying a child a loving family because he might be bullied or teased - doesn't seem like a good trade to me. Same sex parents are gaining acceptance rapidly - and so are their kids.
        Yawn. I never said they should be denied Kay.

        I'm going to say this one final time. What I don't get, is that Elton John and David Furnish have 2 kids. Finally they can marry.

        Marriage is a piece of paper, a union and if affordable a couple of rings.

        A child is a human being.

        Why such a hoo haa over marriage and bugger all over kids?

        That's my point Kay, nothing to do with denying them rights. Purely the fascination that marriage is so much more important to people than children.

        By the way, where you are may have accepted gay marriages and even their kids but I'm in London and I know of no gay married couples and I know of none of their children. I do get out a lot too Kay, perhaps I'm not even noticing them.

        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Richard,It will follow the same pattern most of these issues have.

        I remember in the 60s and 70s, people said the same thing about mixed race marriages. It started with "They'll be harassed," which was countered by "If they're willing to accept that, how is it our business to tell them they can't?" Then it became "What about the kids? They'll get picked on, and be subject to new kinds of bigotry."

        While I can't talk about the whole country, the amount of that kind of bullying which I personally saw was minimal. It happened, and it wasn't pretty when it did, but it wasn't the sort of problem some folks predicted. More to the point, in many areas of the US such bullying would lead to the bully being ostracized by his/her peers.

        When something is so common that virtually everyone has friends who are involved in it, it's no longer a safe basis for schoolyard abuse. You offend too many people, and the social impact becomes severe. When it reaches that saturation level, the kids in grade school are the first generation for whom it's a non-issue.

        The question is, do we use ignorance as an excuse to perpetuate ignorance?

        If we do, we create an environment in which we cede total control of progress to the uninformed, the bigoted, and the vicious.


        Paul
        Paul,

        Perhaps I'm talking from an emotional point of view. I was bullied but it didn't affect me much. I saw many other kids being badly bullied for little reason.

        Three years ago I went to the funeral of a daughter of a good friend of mine. She hung herself having been bullied for being attractive. I saw the effect that had on the Mother who is still a total wreck. My friend, the husband drinks a great deal more than he did and still vows revenge on the Father of one of the bullied girls.

        I think you're right though. They'll be fine in time.

        And finally, this isn't about denying them children, I'd have just liked to have seen it talked about more and in the same depth that's gone into the marriage issue.

        When something is so common that virtually everyone has friends who are involved in it, it's no longer a safe basis for schoolyard abuse. You offend too many people, and the social impact becomes severe. When it reaches that saturation level, the kids in grade school are the first generation for whom it's a non-issue.
        Are you saying the gay population will rise to the same level of mixed race families? I was just reading this and incredibly, I'm in the gay capital of Britain. Apparently and this may not be reliable, they currently make up approximately 1.5% of the population, which is quite large. I'm just not sure how long it'll take to reach that saturation level when "virtually everyone has friends who are involved in it"

        http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...statistics-say

        Anyway ignore me, it's irrelevant anyway. Marriage is the real important thing here, the kids are secondary.

        It's none of my bloody business anyway and I can see from the thanks being dished out that my concerns over the children is not something of much interest, the main thing is they have equal rights and can have a wedding now. Forgive me I shouldn't have written anything.
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Richard,

          You brought up a very important point. I don't think anyone is ignoring or trivializing it. We may simply have accepted that the bullying is inevitable, and the only alternative is to use it as a reason to deny LGBT couples children.

          About 3.5% of the US population self-identify as gay, lesbian, or bisexual. A bit more than one in 30.

          Note that, in my comment about saturation, I was talking about people who have friends in a given situation. If you get to 1 couple in 30 to 60, and they're not primarily single child families, the majority of people will know someone from an LGBT home.

          There's also the fact that, in many parts of the US, being gay doesn't carry anything like the stigma it once did. For many people, mostly younger folks, it's simply not an issue. When that becomes the rule rather than an exception, it's going to be very hard for someone to bully kids with LGBT parents. A lot of their social circle will have LGBT friends. If their friends are okay, why would they have issues with parents over it?

          It's still a large problem, but it's getting smaller with each generation. It's going to be a minimal issue soon enough. (It will never go completely away, any more than racism or sexism will.)

          Yes, the abuse is a problem. It's probably not one that can be avoided. Addressed and perhaps reduced, but not prevented entirely. That's true of most social change, though, isn't it?


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          • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            Yes, the abuse is a problem. It's probably not one that can be avoided. Addressed and perhaps reduced, but not prevented entirely. That's true of most social change, though, isn't it?
            Yes it is.

            You're quite right.

            It really is none of my business.
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  • Profile picture of the author jessicah
    Is that really a problem for others? They are just two people who fell in love and live their lives together, it doesn't matter if they are men or women. And besides that, it doesn't affect anyone else, i think it's just prejudice.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      By the way, where you are may have accepted gay marriages and even their kids but I'm in London and I know of no gay married couples and I know of none of their children. I do get out a lot too Kay, perhaps I'm not even noticing them.
      Sometimes I think "knowing of" is what it takes for acceptance. When you get to know same sex couples who are happily living together and past the point of needing to "prove" or defend their lifestyle...you realize people are people.

      I'm in the US but I know a gay couple just outside London. The men have been together for years - they do well professionally and financially and have a good life together. I've lost touch with them in the past few years but I can imagine their joy at being able to marry each other. If they chose to adopt, they both have the temperament and the resources to be amazing dads.

      I think you're right - you probably do know couples like this - but don't realize they are 'couples like this'.
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      • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        Sometimes I think "knowing of" is what it takes for acceptance. When you get to know same sex couples who are happily living together and past the point of needing to "prove" or defend their lifestyle...you realize people are people.
        Where did I say they were not people?

        Where do I say I don't agree with marriage?

        Where did I say they shouldn't have children?

        All I said was I find it fascinating the child hasn't been discussed but it's taken human kind in this little island until 2014 to recognise a marriage which is just a union on a piece of paper. Why has it taken that long to let them marry if letting them have children was fine? I'm just concerned about the kids while acceptance settles in here.

        I'm pointing out the children will face a tough time as acceptance builds up here. Many already accept it, including me without the need to know same sex couples. Many others with less intelligence and with less acceptance of others, of which there are many, won't.

        I don't think I can phrase that to you any clearer.

        I'm in the US but I know a gay couple just outside London. The men have been together for years - they do well professionally and financially and have a good life together. I've lost touch with them in the past few years but I can imagine their joy at being able to marry each other. If they chose to adopt, they both have the temperament and the resources to be amazing dads.
        I know Kay and I'm sure they can bring the kids up better than I could. That won't stop some thug kid from a bad back ground with homophobes for parents bullying him. Or any kid for that matter. Kids can be cruel.

        I think you're right - you probably do know couples like this - but don't realize they are 'couples like this'.
        I know two gay people. They are not a couple. One lives in Madrid with his partner, they are both great people. If they marry and have kids it's there business not mine.

        I'm not backwards Kay, I have a brain and I recognise any humans right to live a life. I'd just have thought the children would have been more of a concern than letting them marry.

        It's simply none of my business and as far as I'm concerned, what happens to the kids is none of it as well. As I said to Paul I wish I hadn't even thought about it as I'm quite clearly wrong.

        It'll all be fine.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          Not arguing with you - I was agreeing that it takes familiarity sometimes before society becomes comfortable with a change in family structure.
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          • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            Not arguing with you - I was agreeing that it takes familiarity sometimes before society becomes comfortable with a change in family structure.
            Thank you Kay and I'm not arguing they should be denied anything.

            It was just a concern I had. My apologies if I was bit forceful trying to explain my point.

            I don't want to be seen as some homophobe which writing in this thread has made me think that's how others now see me.
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            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
              Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

              Thank you Kay and I'm not arguing they should be denied anything.

              It was just a concern I had. My apologies if I was bit forceful trying to explain my point.

              I don't want to be seen as some homophobe which writing in this thread has made me think that's how others now see me.
              Richard. I don't think anyone thinks that.
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  • Profile picture of the author hardraysnight
    women may be fine but i wouldnt want my sister to marry one
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