Son of Hunger Games Producer kills 7

10 years ago

His stated motive seems to be this:
"I don't know why you girls aren't attracted to me. But I will punish you all for it,

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/ucsb-shooting-elliot-rodger-retribution-video-2014-5#ixzz32ffk0vj7"

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moneywealth

10 years ago

I read somewhere he released a video too on youtube before he did it

Sounds like the whack in the VA Tech thing, a nut with access to guns.

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thunderbird 10 years ago

Originally Posted by moneywealth

I read somewhere he released a video too on youtube before he did it

Sounds like the whack in the VA Tech thing, a nut with access to guns.

If someone is compelled to harm others, it can be done with things other than guns, eg mowing down people with a car or stabbing them with a knife:
Matthew de Grood found fit to stand trial for allegedly killing five young people in Calgary’s worst mass stabbing | National Post
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yukon

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by moneywealth

I read somewhere he released a video too on youtube before he did it

I watched the video on YT, he was mental & corny at the same time. He had this weird laugh like Dr. Evil from the movie Austin Powers: The Spy Who Shagged Me.

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thunderbird

10 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

I watched the video on YT, he was mental & corny at the same time. He had this weird laugh like Dr. Evil from the movie Austin Powers: The Spy Who Shagged Me.

I found it quite unwatchable and could only manage to watch a bit of it. He was articulate and apparently intelligent, yet obviously unable to recognize that he was afflicted with a serious lack of perspective. It's very bizarre and tragic. Was he a narcissist unable to come to terms with rejection?

This is also another case of a failure of law enforcement. The warnings were brazenly broadcast on YouTube!
Seven dead in California gunman's rampage | Action Reporter Media | fdlreporter.com
"Shifman, the attorney for the Rodger family, said the family called police several weeks ago after being alarmed by YouTube videos 'regarding suicide and the killing of people' that Elliot Rodger had been posting."

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serryjw

10 years ago

This is also another case of a failure of law enforcement.

Oh My...where did they parents come in. He may not have been on any one radar until recently.' His parents where there since the beginning. Did they NOT notice their kid had a problem?

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thunderbird

10 years ago

Originally Posted by serryjw

Oh My...where did they parents come in. He may not have been on any one radar until recently.' His parents where there since the beginning. Did they NOT notice their kid had a problem?

The parents were alarmed by their son's videos on YouTube and notified the police weeks ago.

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serryjw

10 years ago

The kid is 22. Ya THUNK they might have noticed he had a problem before a few weeks ago?
WHY are parents so surprised? I knew my friend's kid had a problem years ago by reading his TWITTER posts.

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thunderbird

10 years ago

Originally Posted by serryjw

The kid is 22. Ya THUNK they might have noticed he had a problem before a few weeks ago?
WHY are parents so surprised? I knew my friend's kid had a problem years ago by reading his TWITTER posts.

I'm not finding many details on what his parents knew apart from the fact that their son had "a history of mental illness" (BBC, below).
BBC News - California drive-by gunman 'wanted retribution'
"Peter Rodger said he believed his son Elliot - who had a history of mental illness - was responsible for the murders"

There is a lot of stuff we don't know. What set off his bloody rampage? Was he on selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors as so many of these mass murderers have been? I don't know.

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ForumGuru

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by serryjw

The kid is 22. Ya THUNK they might have noticed he had a problem before a few weeks ago?

Originally Posted by thunderbird

I'm not finding many details on what his parents knew apart from the fact that their son had "a history of mental illness"

He's was diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome as a child, and he was under the care of professionals.

The Associated Press spoke to Alan Shifman, an attorney who represents Elliot's father, Peter Rodger. Shifman told the wire service that Elliot Rodger "was diagnosed at an earlier age of being a highly-functional Asperger Syndrome child."

Shifman said that his parents were concerned a few weeks ago after watching a few YouTube videos "regarding suicide and the killing of people." Shifman said Rodger had "multiple therapists" and a social worker was concerned enough last week that she called police.

Authorities, however, interviewed him and concluded he was a "perfectly polite, kind and wonderful human."

Alleged Shooter In California Left Vast Digital Trail : The Two-Way : NPR

Unfortunately, this happens in our system...people that know something is going wrong have it right, but the authorities get it wrong. If the authorities determine in the relatively short interview(s) that the person is not a threat to themselves or society then they do nothing.

On the other hand...is it fair to lock up 10,000, 100,000, or maybe a million that may not ever harm anyone? This is what could happen if we liberalized the criteria to throw people in the loony bin for extended periods.

It's a double edge sword and unfortunately the authorities got it wrong in this tragic case. I do think room for improvement exists in the mental care system here in the US. Unfortunately, most of the focus when something like this happens is on background checks, guns, and gun magazines --> and not on the overall mental health care industry. We need to throw more money and effort into developing more sufficient and efficient mental health care programs which would eventually benefit society greatly.

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thunderbird

10 years ago

Originally Posted by ForumGuru

He's was diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome as a child.

Unfortunately, this happens in our system...people that know something is gong wrong have it right, but the authorities get it wrong. If the authorities determine in the relatively short interview(s) that the person is not a threat to themselves or society then they do nothing.

On the other hand...would you like 10,000, a 100,000, or maybe a million people locked up that may not ever harm anyone? This is what could happen if you liberalized the criteria to throw people in the loony bin for extended periods.

It's a double edge sword and unfortunately the authorities got it wrong in this tragic case. I think their is room for improvement in the mental care here in the US...but so far when most of the focus when something like this happens has been on background checks, guns, gun magazines --> and not on the overall metal health care industry. We need to throw a lot more money and effort into developing more sufficient and efficient mental health care programs which would benefit society greatly.

Cheers

-don

Those are good points and similar concerns crossed my mind as well. However, I think the alarm is loud and brazen when someone starts broadcasting it on YouTube.

I wonder where BBC got the "history of mental illness" from? Asperger's is not any kind of illness at all. It is a loose set of vaguely defined characteristics of individuals on the high-functioning end of the autism spectrum.

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ForumGuru

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by thunderbird

Those are good points and similar concerns crossed my mind as well. However, I think the alarm is loud and brazen when someone starts broadcasting it on YouTube.

I wonder where BBC got the "history of mental illness" from? Asperger's is not any kind of illness at all. It is a loose set of vaguely defined characteristics of individuals on the high-functioning end of the autism spectrum.

The "authorities" interviewed him but did not commit him...the social worker did her job but the "authorities" blew it. It sounds like the parents may have reported the videos to someone, probably the therapist or social worker. This is why we need to improve the mental health care system so that the "authorities" have a better chance of getting it right...and fewer of the potential problem patients reach violent stages when they have the capacity to harm others.

As far as Asperger's goes...it was classified a Mental Disorder in 1994 by the American Psychiatric Association.

Asperger

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thunderbird

10 years ago

Originally Posted by ForumGuru

<snip>

As far as Asperger's goes...it was classified a Mental Disorder in 1994 by the American Psychiatric Association.

Asperger

Cheers

If so, they're wrong. It is no more of a disorder than being shy or happy-go-lucky. The American Psychiatric Association needs to correct that error.

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ForumGuru

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by thunderbird

If so, they're wrong. It is no more of a disorder than being shy or happy-go-lucky. The American Psychiatric Association needs to correct that error.

Well above my pay grade.

Just in case you missed it...fairly large changes to autism spectrum disorder with the publication of the DSM-5 in 2013.

http://www.dsm5.org/Documents/Autism...ct%20Sheet.pdf

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thunderbird

10 years ago

Originally Posted by ForumGuru

Well above my pay grade.

Just in case you missed it...fairly large changes to autism spectrum disorder with the publication of the DSM-5 in 2013.

http://www.dsm5.org/Documents/Autism...ct%20Sheet.pdf

That is not the prevalent attitude of people who are actually on the autism spectrum (such as myself). Those "experts" approach characteristics as if they're "disorders" when many if not most major advancements were probably due to the contributions of people with Asperger's "disorder."

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Kay King

10 years ago

The kid is 22. Ya THUNK they might have noticed he had a problem before a few weeks ago? WHY are parents so surprised?

I believe there is a bigger picture here that is ignored by most experts, the media and the public.

Fifty years ago parents could commit a family member with mental issues to a state or private mental hospital. They were treated as long as they needed to be - sometimes were kept in the 'institution' for a long time.

As we became more and more obsessed with our "rights" we deemed it cruel to force someone into mental health treatment. We began closing those hospitals by the dozens in favor of outpatient treatment (which was voluntary and often absent).

Some of those hospitals were nightmares of mistreatment - but many were well run and focused on providing a place where the mentally ill person was confined with the goal of treatment the mental illness and keeping the public safe from that person.

I think it may take another generation for social historians to clearly see the pattern of incidents directly due to the lack of mental health involuntary confinement.

We did not replace the 'asylums' with state run treatment homes or free clinics nor do we force treatment on anyone who is not acting totally insane.

The mentally ill are still with us - the crazies didn't disappear because we closed mental asylums. His parents could warn of possible problems - the police can't do anything until a law is broken. When someone like this "breaks", people die.

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Kay King

10 years ago

I wonder where BBC got the "history of mental illness" from? Asperger's is not any kind of illness at all.

I think you are arguing something that wasn't said. From what I've read there were multiple therapists involved with this man and he had multiple mental issues AND Aspergers.

He was diagnosed with Asperger's and media will mention every disorder he was diagnosed for. It's like the constant repetition of "hunger games" his father worked on....has nothing to do with the story but is helps make the story more "popular".

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Kay King

10 years ago

I was listening to a discussion of this on TV and wondering what part social media plays.

Experts say the number of mass shootings per year in the US has tripled in the past 6-8 years from 5/yr to 15 or more per year. That's an 'average'.

Is it that hard to look at the time period and correlate it to the growth of social media? That's a long term study I wish I were qualified and funded to do.

Not just the potential to blab about how tough you are or how difficult your life is or how unfair everyone is. Social media also offers an often unrealistic view of how others live - what they feel/think/own/do.

Maybe it's more than the attention these people can get on social media - maybe access to social media changes their behavior and not in a good way.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

I was listening to a discussion of this on TV and wondering what part social media plays.

Experts say the number of mass shootings per year in the US has tripled in the past 6-8 years from 5/yr to 15 or more per year. That's an 'average'.

Is it that hard to look at the time period and correlate it to the growth of social media? That's a long term study I wish I were qualified and funded to do.

There's also been phenomenal growth in tourism, 3D Printer Manufacturing, Hot Sauce Production, Generic Pharmaceutical Manufacturing, Pilates & Yoga Studios, For-Profit Universities, Self-Tanning Product Manufacturing, Online Eyeglasses & Contact Lens Sales, Green and Sustainable Building Construction, Solar Panel Manufacturing, and Social Network Game Development

I seriously doubt that you're going to find a strong correlation between social media and mentally ill people who commit mass murder and I certainly hope they don't waste my tax dollars to fund such a study.

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thunderbird

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

I think you are arguing something that wasn't said. From what I've read there were multiple therapists involved with this man and he had multiple mental issues AND Aspergers.

He was diagnosed with Asperger's and media will mention every disorder he was diagnosed for. It's like the constant repetition of "hunger games" his father worked on....has nothing to do with the story but is helps make the story more "popular".

I am not really arguing about anything, really, other than discussing semantics and the overly broad use of the word "disorder," but that is not ForumGuru's doing, LOL. I'll bet some of you reading this are on the autism spectrum and don't even know it. That said, I think, overall, ForumGuru presented the picture accurately.

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serryjw

10 years ago

Kay, We have had the conversation before. There is a correlation B/T psychotropic drugs and violence. I know Suzanne is going to disagree with me.. Maybe it doesn't 'cause' the violence but it tips the scale when one is predisposed.Some how WE do have to have the right to institutionalize someone against there wishes..HOW? Smarter people than I will have to figure this out. There is a difference b/t teens going through the typical acting out that you expect at 15 and mental illness. I'm having a tough time with IM, recognizing the difference b/t acting out and mental illness is above my pay grade.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by serryjw

Kay, We have had the conversation before. There is a correlation B/T psychotropic drugs and violence. I know Suzanne is going to disagree with me.. Maybe it doesn't 'cause' the violence but it tips the scale when one is predisposed.Some how WE do have to have the right to institutionalize someone against there wishes..HOW? Smarter people than I will have to figure this out. There is a difference b/t teens going through the typical acting out that you expect at 15 and mental illness. I'm having a tough time with IM, recognizing the difference b/t acting out and mental illness is above my pay grade.

Stated like that, of course I disagree. There are millions of mentally ill that benefit from medication. There are mentally ill that are violent when not treated or when refusing their medication. With the number of mentally ill being treated, it would surprise no one that in some cases, the medication won't work and they will still be violent.

Then there are cases where psychiatrists treat patients like guinea pigs. Many of those medications are labeled that they are not for teens and early 20s, and yet they still prescribe them for that age group. Violence is a known side effect along with suicide and other symptoms in that age group.

As for locking up mentally ill people, it's done all the time. If they are found to be potentially a danger to themselves or the public, they can keep them. A recent example is Amanda Bynes. She was institutionalized against her will.

As for social media, rather than causing mass murderers to do what they do, it gives an insight and a warning of what is to come, if only law enforcement would have acted on it. The videos were there, the threats were there for everyone to see. To expect them to be aware of every social media threat made is unrealistic, but to expect them to take it seriously and act when it is pointed out to them, is not unreasonable.

Another benefit of the wackos using social media to lay out their plans, should they survive, it is hard evidence to be used in court to keep them in jail for the rest of their lives. What more convincing evidence does a court need than a Youtube video telling people not only what he plans to do, but why he plans to do it and then in reality, exactly that happens. Case closed.

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Fifty years ago parents could commit a family member with mental issues to a state or private mental hospital. They were treated as long as they needed to be - sometimes were kept in the 'institution' for a long time.

I could tell you about someone I know that has AS that is very rich and famous and I doubt NOBODY here doesn't know how rich he is or who he is, etc... If he were locked up the world would be a bit different.

AS is NOT something worthy of being committed for. It never was. HECK, it took the US almost 40 years to even RECOGNIZE it after a person in germany discovered it. Prior to that, people were just odd or shy. That sterotype carries through to today. Before the 1980s, nobody in the US would have thought MAYBE he, or she, has AS! Females are given more latitude. They have less need for some of the lacking skills, and some other symptoms may be thought of as NORMAL. **I** think THAT is why fewer females are diagnosed.

As we became more and more obsessed with our "rights" we deemed it cruel to force someone into mental health treatment. We began closing those hospitals by the dozens in favor of outpatient treatment (which was voluntary and often absent).

Since the bad parts of AS, as far as others are concerned, are actually social, there is no real treatment. And the social problems do NOT include killing people, being cruel, etc.... In fact, having AS means you DON'T have those. At least it is SUPPOSED to. If you were paranoid, or psychotic, that would be another diagnosis, and AS says the symptoms can not be part of another diagnosis.

We did not replace the 'asylums' with state run treatment homes or free clinics nor do we force treatment on anyone who is not acting totally insane.

The mentally ill are still with us - the crazies didn't disappear because we closed mental asylums. His parents could warn of possible problems - the police can't do anything until a law is broken. When someone like this "breaks", people die.

You are KIND of right about THAT. SOME insane people ARE locked up against their will, with no input.

When my mother got alzheimers, she became forgetful, paranoid, and psychotic. The police ended up putting her in a protected area. Ironically, I found that she periodically tricked a person into taking her by my house to see if I was here. She also would periodically be taken other places. THAT was likely the problem there.

BTW The police came because she was incoherent and had fallen so 911 was called.

There are a LOT of people that are insane. Locking them up IS expensive.

Steve

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HeySal 10 years ago

Originally Posted by thunderbird

If so, they're wrong. It is no more of a disorder than being shy or happy-go-lucky. The American Psychiatric Association needs to correct that error.

Unfortunately, the Association has gone the same way as our Medical complex. They are more interested in making tags that will allow them to profit from drug pushing than actually helping people become stable. They even prescribe now knowing the results of the drug can be extremely dangerous.
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seasoned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by ForumGuru

He's was diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome as a child, and he was under the care of professionals.

This seems to be a favorite with criminals(hard to disprove, and they are treated better), some families(getting some benefits), and psychiatrists(MOOLA!). Frankly, it is over diagnosed, and just maligns all the nice people that have it.

It is considered to be a syndrome and a difference, rather than a disease.

BTW it is a GIVEN that he wouldn't develop a lot of relationships with girls spending all his time on games like this. ALSO, he obviously has serious NON AS problems, since he either has NO concept of reality, or was brainwashed and figured he could pull a part into reality and play that part.

You may laugh at my saying this, since I am on the forum so much, but I have been saying since about 1980 that if you get your kid a computer, you should NOT allow them to play games or use BBS's all day long.

BBS's have been effectively replaced today by "social websites"(like twitter and facebook), and forums(like this one).

OK, I am addicted. STILL, I control my own life and am not here 100% even if it may SEEM that way.

Steve
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waterotter

10 years ago

Should have had a unmarked patrol car follow him from the time he left his home - may have saved a few lives.

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gregdavidson727

10 years ago

About a week ago he was active on the Bodybuilding.com forum. Bodybuilding.com took down his postings but you can view the cache at the link below. The people on this forum were making fun of his YouTube videos and were comparing him to the character Patrick Bateman from the movie American Psycho. It's likely that that's what gave him the idea of carrying out his atrocious acts.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...1990983&page=1

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waterotter

10 years ago

The Final Phase of the Day of Retribution will be my ultimate showdown in the streets of Isla Vista.

On the morning before, I will drive down to my father's house to kill my little brother, denying him of the chance to grow up to surpass me, along with my stepmother ... as she will be in the way. My father will be away on one of his business trips, so thankfully I won't have to deal with him.

If he didn't go away on that trip, I might even have to postpone the whole plan because of my fear that I might hesitate if I have to kill him. Once I've taken care of my brother and stepmother, I will switch over to the Mercedes SUV, and drive it back up to Isla Vista. I will use it as one of my killing machines against my enemies. An SUV will cause a lot more damage than my BMW coupe.

Source: Elliot Rodger manifesto outlines plans for Santa Barbara attack

Elliot Rodger, Santa Barbara mass shooting suspect, "My Twisted World" manifesto

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by waterotter

Source: Elliot Rodger manifesto outlines plans for Santa Barbara attack

Elliot Rodger, Santa Barbara mass shooting suspect, "My Twisted World" manifesto

Those links are truly chilling. First I've read them, and he wondered why girls didn't want him. Undoubtedly, he came off as an oddball and not someone you'd be attracted to. Those videos should have gone immediately to a court and judge to place him in an institution against his will.

On the week leading up to date I set for the Day of Retribution, I uploaded several videos onto Youtube in order to express my views and feelings to the world, though I don't plan on uploading my ultimate video until minutes before the attack, because on that video I will talk about exactly why I'm doing this ... After only a week passed since I uploaded those videos on Youtube, I heard a knock on my apartment door. I opened it to see about seven police officers asking for me.

As soon as I saw those cops, the biggest fear I had ever felt in my life overcame me.

I had the striking and devastating fear that someone had somehow discovered what I was planning to do, and reported me for it.

If that was the case, the police would have searched my room, found all of my guns and weapons, along with my writings about what I plan to do with them. I would have been thrown in jail, denied of the chance to exact revenge on my enemies. I can't imagine a hell darker than that. Thankfully, that wasn't the case, but it was so close.

Apparently, someone saw my videos and became instantly suspicious of me. They called some sort of health agency, who called the police to check up on me.

The police told me it was my mother who called them, but my mother told me it was the health agency. My mother had watched the videos and was very disturbed by them. I don't suppose I'll ever know the full truth of who called the police on me.

The police interrogated me outside for a few minutes, asking me if I had suicidal thoughts. I tactfully told them that it was all a misunderstanding, and they finally left. If they had demanded to search my room ... That would have ended everything. For a few horrible seconds I thought it was all over. When they left, the biggest wave of relief swept over me. It was so scary.

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waterotter

10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Those links are truly chilling. First I've read them, and he wondered why girls didn't want him. Undoubtedly, he came off as an oddball and not someone you'd be attracted to. Those videos should have gone immediately to a court and judge to place him in an institution against his will.

I agree about the court and judge.

He did in fact, kill his roommates by stabbing them to death. He did write about beheading them.

The officials really dropped the ball on this one. Like I mentioned earlier, they should have followed him, in an unmarked patrol car, from the time he left his apartment.

Wouldn't have helped his roommates, but might have saved a few others.

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seasoned

10 years ago

He sounds like a real kook. He apparently patterned everything after the hellscream character in warcraft. As for his LOOK? Is he trying to mimic eddy munster(sorry Butch)?

The doll is wolfy. I wonder if Elliot Rodger had a wolfy of his own.

He's still got that weird drugged look.

Steve

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serryjw 10 years ago

Steve when I saw Rodger sitting in his black car, I said the same thing. His eyes are dead..'Eyes are the windows of the soul'...That about says it all.
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seasoned

10 years ago

MAN, I don't know what I hate more....

The fact that they LIED:

Mr Shifman said Elliot Rodger had been diagnosed as being a "highly functional Asperger's syndrome child" and was being treated by "multiple" professionals.

AS? Did they give ANY reason? Social problems doesn't cut it. That is only ONE symptom, and it has ANOTHER cause here. Highly functional? It seems he couldn't LIVE without his games, and was easily brainwashed. He was PSYCHOTIC:

Psychosis (from the Greek ψυχή psyche, "mind/soul", and -ωσις -osis, "abnormal condition or derangement") refers to an abnormal condition of the mind, and is a generic psychiatric term for a mental state often described as involving a "loss of contact with reality". People suffering from psychosis are described as psychotic.

He was paranoid, narcissistic, and clearly sadistic.

Most of that would probably have been obvious long ago to a reasonable psychiatrist.

In it, the man believed to be Rodger speaks of a "day of retribution" for his life of "loneliness, rejection and unfulfilled desires".
"I will slaughter every single spoiled, stuck-up blonde slut I see inside there. All those girls that I've desired so much, they have all rejected me and looked down upon me as an inferior man," he says.

That statement right there says it all. He figured he was some kind of epitome of an uber masculine and uber attractive man that all women should love, and saw all rejection as, ironically, a reflection of his behavior(THEY were the narcisistic ones, etc.... and he was like a million dollar bill on the street, but they wanted a billion), that made them not worthy to live.

Or the father that used the event to campaign against guns. This guy WOULD have used bombs if guns weren't available. He didn't care who he killed, as he said he wanted rivers of blood and mountains of skulls. And why didn't he speak against the games that his son QUOTED.

BTW that pattern I told you that all the shooters seemed to fit? This guy fits in nicely also!

It seems there are a LOT of people that lose track of reality all too easily and some of them would kill everyone on the planet if given the chance.

BTW he supposedly had access to a lot, and his parents were rich. If he wanted to, he could probably have imported a full machine gun, undeclared.

Steve

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Alast

10 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

BTW he supposedly had access to a lot, and his parents were rich. If he wanted to, he could probably have imported a full machine gun, undeclared.

Steve

Or just hired a prostitute.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Alast

Or just hired a prostitute.

That was my initial thoughts too, but after reading that he's been seen by mental health pros since he was 7 or so, I don't think that not getting laid was his entire problem. Obviously, as he got older, he thought that it was a problem and that it was the good looking men and girl's fault that he didn't get laid. I think that he was a creepy guy that girls didn't want anything to do with, but he wanted to put the blame on those girls who didn't want him and the guys that had girlfriends.

Undoubtedly, a prostitute would fill a need, but he would have still felt the sting of rejection because he had to pay for sex and others didn't.

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Alast

10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

That was my initial thoughts too, but after reading that he's been seen by mental health pros since he was 7 or so, I don't think that not getting laid was his entire problem. Obviously, as he got older, he thought that it was a problem and that it was the good looking men and girl's fault that he didn't get laid. I think that he was a creepy guy that girls didn't want anything to do with, but he wanted to put the blame on those girls who didn't want him and the guys that had girlfriends.

Undoubtedly, a prostitute would fill a need, but he would have still felt the sting of rejection because he had to pay for sex and others didn't.

Touché.

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seasoned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Alast

Or just hired a prostitute.

But that wouldn't fit the game. It was what he indicated his trigger was, but his words belie that. Logically, though he clearly wasn't logical..., it appears he wanted to play the game in reality, and play the part of helscream, and used the treatment by the women as his excuse. If they all treated him well, he would likely have found ANOTHER reason.

Steve
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gregdavidson727

10 years ago

Any comments on the link I shared earlier?

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...1990983&page=1

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waterotter 10 years ago

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- gregdavidson727 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by waterotter
  
  Nothing shows up on your link.
  
  After you click on the link give it about 10 or 20 seconds. It could be your internet connection.
  
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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by gregdavidson727

Any comments on the link I shared earlier?

Google cache browser proxy page

Yeah. Like I said ... he's creepy. The guys in the BB forum use the word "cringe" a lot describing how they felt watching him on Youtube.

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gregdavidson727

10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Yeah. Like I said ... he's creepy. The guys in the BB forum use the word "cringe" a lot describing how they felt watching him on Youtube.

But I think they made things worse by comparing him to Patrick Bateman. I believe he watched the movie American Psycho immediately after that to confirm the comparison and decided he wanted to emulate that character. That's why he used a knife to kill his roommates and was acting like a villain with a sinister laugh in his final video.

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Kay King

10 years ago

To me, that's part of the "social media" problem. Those people are commenting from ignorance. They are using "cringe" but they are responding as if they are talking to a normal person....and they aren't.

How frustrating must it be to have wild, crazy ideas in your head - to be convinced you are god-like and girls don't see it ... and then to have people respond to you as if you are a regular 'guy' talking dumb?

You can't reason with a crazy person - you can't give advice to a nutcase. I think if his parents had the option, they would have him committed for observation and treatment.....but as a society we decide some time ago it wasn't fair to put people in mental hospitals when had done nothing wrong.

This is the downside to that theory.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

To me, that's part of the "social media" problem. Those people are commenting from ignorance. They are using "cringe" but they are responding as if they are talking to a normal person....and they aren't.

How frustrating must it be to have wild, crazy ideas in your head - to be convinced you are god-like and girls don't see it ... and then to have people respond to you as if you are a regular 'guy' talking dumb?

You can't reason with a crazy person - you can't give advice to a nutcase. I think if his parents had the option, they would have him committed for observation and treatment.....but as a society we decide some time ago it wasn't fair to put people in mental hospitals when had done nothing wrong.

This is the downside to that theory.

I'm certain that people cringed in real life when talking to him face to face. He mentioned that his best friend (only friend) said he didn't want to ever talk to him again. Why? Because he's creepy. He's creepy online and he's creepy offline.

Most of those "mental hospitals" were pits of despair where people were fed medications so that they'd do little else than drool and watch TV or "treated" with electroshock therapy and lobotomies as well as other truly horrible treatments, particularly the state run ones.

Many of them needed to be shut down. I for one am very glad that any old Joe that would rather see you put away cannot do it without compelling evidence that you are a danger to yourself or others.

Six Abandoned Asylums with Genuinely Chilling Backstories

Bedlam 1946 . The Lobotomist . WGBH American Experience | PBS

Philadelphia State Hospital at Byberry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Willowbrook State School - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Psychiatric hospital - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The rise and fall of state hospital

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by gregdavidson727

Any comments on the link I shared earlier?

Google cache browser proxy page

One of the bodybuilders got it right.

He said:

I hope this in an elaborate troll.. scary to think people like this exist. this is how shootings happen.

Another one said:
Weird, I was thinking the same thing. He reminds me of somebody that went crazy but I can't put my finger on it.

Another one posted a video about Psychopaths, Sociopaths and Narcissists

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ErinWalsh

10 years ago

He was also active on pick up artist forums, and would go into rages when he saw pictures of minorities with hot white chicks.

One thought that I had about this guy:
Did a non hot chick ever try to date him and he turn her down cause she wasn't the hot chick he was lusting after? He seems the type to feel he deserves the hot chick forget about the not hot chick.

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by ErinWalsh

He was also active on pick up artist forums, and would go into rages when he saw pictures of minorities with hot white chicks.

One thought that I had about this guy:
Did a non hot chick ever try to date him and he turn her down cause she wasn't the hot chick he was lusting after? He seems the type to feel he deserves the hot chick forget about the not hot chick.

He obviously felt he was PERFECT! He clearly wouldn't have settled for, to use HIS term, "INFERIOR" women.

Steve

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Another one posted a video about Psychopaths, Sociopaths and Narcissists

FUNNY! THEY made the diagnosis! I made the diagnosis! It is OBVIOUS! And yet SUPPOSEDLY all those psychiatrists MISSED it!?!?!?!?!?

Steve

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

FUNNY! THEY made the diagnosis! I made the diagnosis! It is OBVIOUS! And yet SUPPOSEDLY all those psychiatrists MISSED it!?!?!?!?!?

Steve

You made the "diagnoses" after his crimes, his manifesto and his videos were plastered all over the Internet. I'm sure his healthcare providers did not have anything close to that to determine his state. In addition, one may well have made a diagnoses of sociopathy, narcissism and psycopathy, but barring any illegal event or a direct threat to himself or others, there's nothing that they could do except provide medication. At this point, we don't really know in depth what his illnesses were or what his mental health care was. It only briefly notes that he was seen by mental health professionals since he was a child. Nothing more.

Apparently he was deemed sane enough to be able to buy 3 guns, but then that comes as no surprise to anyone, does it?

Elliot Rodger, the suspect in the deadly attacks at Isla Vista near UC Santa Barbara, had been under the care of a therapist for some time and had been prescribed psychiatric drugs.

But experts said getting treatment would not prevent Rodger from legally obtaining the three guns he allegedly used in the rampage Friday night.

This psychiatrist says:

Dr. George Woods, a San Francisco psychiatrist who lectures on mental health and the law, said Rodger appeared to have been in an early phase of pre-psychosis. The ability to mask symptoms is common, he said. "Oftentimes you'll see that the paranoia is in the service of the delusion," Woods said. "They aren't telling people their business."

But I take that with a grain of salt. He never saw the subject or treated him. Just an opinion after the fact.

... and another quote

The family was caring and attentive, said family friend Adam Krentzman. Peter Rodger, the father of the suspect, "is the sweetest, nicest, most genuine, caring person, and he did everything he could," Krentzman said.

But after Elliot Rodger turned 18, he started rejecting mental health care that his family provided, Krentzman said. "He turned his back on all of it," he said. "At some point, your kid becomes an adult."

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

You made the "diagnoses" after his crimes, his manifesto and his videos were plastered all over the Internet.

NOPE! Just the youtube video is enough!

I'm sure his healthcare providers did not have anything close to that to determine his state. In addition, one may well have made a diagnoses of sociopathy, narcissism and psycopathy, but barring any illegal event or a direct threat to himself or others, there's nothing that they could do except provide medication. At this point, we don't really know in depth what his illnesses were or what his mental health care was. It only briefly notes that he was seen by mental health professionals since he was a child. Nothing more.

Taken to a psychiatrist, or psychologist, they are supposed to ask questions, etc... They SUPPOSEDLY diagnosed him as AS. That REQUIRES excluding psychosis and things like narcisism. So they might not have had ANY of this, but they were still supposed to try to find out. Obviously this guy wasn't secret about this.

Apparently he was deemed sane enough to be able to buy 3 guns, but then that comes as no surprise to anyone, does it?

WOW! That IS odd! AS, and even autism, are SO maligned, that I would have thought they would say NO!

This psychiatrist says:

Dr. George Woods, a San Francisco psychiatrist who lectures on mental health and the law, said Rodger appeared to have been in an early phase of pre-psychosis. The ability to mask symptoms is common, he said. "Oftentimes you'll see that the paranoia is in the service of the delusion," Woods said. "They aren't telling people their business."

Often right, unfortunately, but this guy apparently was different.

The family was caring and attentive, said family friend Adam Krentzman. Peter Rodger, the father of the suspect, "is the sweetest, nicest, most genuine, caring person, and he did everything he could," Krentzman said.

But after Elliot Rodger turned 18, he started rejecting mental health care that his family provided, Krentzman said. "He turned his back on all of it," he said. "At some point, your kid becomes an adult."

If you read that carefully, it says NOTHING about elliot other than he "started rejecting mental health care". ONE possible interpretation of that is that he WAS talking drugs that helped, and decided to STOP!

Steve

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Richard Van 10 years ago

Wow. I just watched the video.

One bit stood out for me when he said if he'd ever made an advance on those girls they would have rejected him.

That sounds like he never made a move on anyone at all.

Edit. Actually the whole video stood out for me, that was one chilling video. Sad too looking at a fairly good looking kid in a very nice car with blue skies and palm tree's behind him and son of a very wealthy family at a great school.

His glass was definitely half empty.
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magentawave 10 years ago

Stefan Molyneux has an excellent video about Elliot Rogers background on his Youtube channel entitled, The Truth About Elliot Rogers:

The Truth About Elliot Rodger - YouTube
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waterotter

10 years ago

Sheriff's deputies who showed up at Elliot Rodger's doorstep last month to check on his mental health hadn't seen online videos in which he threatens suicide and violence even though those recordings were what prompted his parents to call authorities.

The officers also failed to check his apartment - something Rodger later revealed came as a huge relief because they might have found the cache of weapons he went on to use in the massacre.

BBM

Source: Police sent to check on virgin killer's mental health before massacre hadn't watched his twisted YouTube rants - then FAILED to search his apartment

I've read this numerous times that authorities failed to watch the videos. Shame, shame, shame. This tragedy could have been avoided.

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by waterotter

BBM

Source: Police sent to check on virgin killer's mental health before massacre hadn't watched his twisted YouTube rants - then FAILED to search his apartment

I've read this numerous times that authorities failed to watch the videos. Shame, shame, shame. This tragedy could have been avoided.

WOW! In the US, there are cops paid SPECIFICALLY to do this! ICSM....

Do they do better in canada?

But MAN, one would hope they would have seen the guy.

If it were me, and I was told all the early stuff, I would think:

1. OK, he SUPPOSEDLY has AS. It seems like most of the time they are wrong, so WHAT are the symptoms? If I were a psychiatrist, I might delve into interests, IQ, behavior, social interaction, etc...
2. The social interaction may have exposed psychosis, narcisism, etc... And BANG, you have him.

The videos make all that easy, but even a little kid saying that is scary. Someone HIS age saying that SHOULD get him locked up!

BTW, there ARE drugs that supposedly help, but even a 100% "cure" is often doomed to failure because people may forget to, or decide not to, take them.

Steve

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waterotter

10 years ago

Do they do better in canada?

Don't know as they've never come to check on me.

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by waterotter

Don't know as they've never come to check on me.

They haven't checked on ME either, outside of the times 911 was called to say I died, etc...

But I meant like has the news spoken about such things in canada?

Steve

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waterotter

10 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

They haven't checked on ME either, outside of the times 911 was called to say I died, etc...

But I meant like has the news spoken about such things in canada?

Steve

Steve,

I can only speak from what others have been through. I think our cops do over-react in certain situations involving mental illness.

This case has been advertised on our local news, but no mention on how law enforcement deals with such issues.

On the other hand, there was a young man from Toronto who was gunned down by a vigilante cop. That officer was put on leave, but is now working again. Not sure, he may just have a desk job.

It's not at all clear that enough has been done to instruct police on how to de-escalate confrontations with a mentally ill or disturbed person, or if that message is actually sinking in.

This is only one case, but I could find links to many others.

Source: Toronto police didn't need to shoot Sammy Yatim: Editorial

Another case:

Weingust said Jardine-Douglas's family hopes the inquest will result in recommendations that police officers use special procedures when confronting people they know to be mentally unstable.

The inquest has already heard from a police instructor who said officers' reactions are based on a person's behaviour and not on their mental state, testimony Weingust said Jardine-Douglas's family had found concerning.

"There has to be better training, better understanding," he said. "This was a mere situation where the (family) had called the police saying 'Will you help me bring back my son."'

Source: Reyal Jardine-Douglas sat quietly before officer boarded bus

I guess law enforcement needs to adapt to change and provide intensive training where mental illness is concerned?

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marketingva

10 years ago

I hope people reading the news understand that having mental health issues does mean a person is evil. I have suffered from depression on and off my entire life and I'd rather cut off my own arm than harm anyone else.

Bonnie

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Kay King

10 years ago

This isn't on the level of depression or anxiety or even OCD - this is insanity, pure and simple. He planned this attack for up to a year! This wasn't random or spur of the moment.

California mass killer thought plan was over during April visit by deputies | FOX13Now.com - News for Salt Lake City, Ogden, Provo and beyond

He described how it could have quickly ended had police sent to check on him actually CHECKED his apartment.

But they couldn't do that if they didn't have a search warrant - and what grounds would they have for a search warrant? They were asked to check on his "welfare" - they were not trained psychiatric professionals and he seemed fine to them so they said "you ok?" and he said "yeah - misunderstanding". That was that.

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

This isn't on the level of depression or anxiety or even OCD - this is insanity, pure and simple. He planned this attack for up to a year! This wasn't random or spur of the moment.

California mass killer thought plan was over during April visit by deputies | FOX13Now.com - News for Salt Lake City, Ogden, Provo and beyond

He described how it could have quickly ended had police sent to check on him actually CHECKED his apartment.

But they couldn't do that if they didn't have a search warrant - and what grounds would they have for a search warrant? They were asked to check on his "welfare" - they were not trained psychiatric professionals and he seemed fine to them so they said "you ok?" and he said "yeah - misunderstanding". That was that.

Even if they checked such people, WHO KNOWS? There really are some people that seem weird and may have lot of weird things, but are nice. There are people that may not have ANYTHING bad and are evil. And MANY have guns and even EXPLOSIVES, and never use them in a dangerous way.

But the psychiatrists should have been more observant.

Steve

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

This isn't on the level of depression or anxiety or even OCD - this is insanity, pure and simple. He planned this attack for up to a year! This wasn't random or spur of the moment.

That's called premeditation. He would not have been diagnosed insane in any court of law. He clearly knew right from wrong, was attending college classes, driving a car, paying bills, etc. He was mentally ill, but mentally ill is not the same as insane.

It seems like insanity to the more normal people out there, but it isn't.

Already the news media is taking this tragic story in directions that are missing the biggest piece- misogyny and sexual entitlement.

Dear News Media,

Don't gloss over that:

1. This was a hate crime. This was an act of violence committed against victims that were, or were sympathetic to, a group of people (in this case, women) in which the motivation for the violence was simply that they were a part of that group. That's a hate crime. A gender based hate crime.

2. Many men are socialized young to believe they are owed sex and attention from women. They are led to believe that if they are nice, or a gentleman, or do favors, or are a 'nice guy,' that this entitles them to sex. The whole idea of 'friendzoning' and the indignation around the fear of being an attentive and good friend to a woman and not being rewarded with vagina in return (as if the only thing worthwhile about companionship with another human being is whether or not you get laid as a result), is indicative of this dehumanizing socialization that can lead to extreme and horrifying outcomes like this.

This time, however, the men's rights and pick-up artist communities are getting more attention, and not just from feminist blogs. At Slate, Hess detailed the way pick-up artistry and men's rights ideology informed Rodger's thinking:

Rodger's language is familiar to anyone who's spent time exploring the Pick-Up Artist or Men's Rights Activist communities. Rodger was a 'Nice Guy,' a man who feels he is entitled to sex based on positive personality traits known only to him. ('I've wanted love, affection, adoration. You think I'm unworthy of it. That's a crime that can never be forgiven,' he said). He aspired to be an 'Alpha,' the most attractive, dominant man in his group, but felt he's been wrongly dismissed as an inferior 'Beta.' Pick-Up Artists, by the way, refer to women they would like to have sex with as their 'targets.'

Hess wrote about Sodini's connection with the pick-up artist community in 2009 as well.

The Washington Post's Petula Dvorak noted the connection:

Elliot Rodger has exposed the sick world of the Men's Rights Activist movement, self-described alphas who fume about any and all the times they don't call the shots with women, specifically the airbrushed, inflated and photo-shopped creatures they assume are there for them.

Mostly, it's about sex. Or the lack thereof.

A group of them call themselves Pickup Artists. And some sell their wisdom -- tips that include stale bar tricks, ways to insult and ignore women as part of their seduction -- as online courses, apps or seminars. They call this ability to get women to sleep with them "Game."

When desperate men who shell out cash thinking it will buy them Game fail, they lash out online. Not at the men who try to sell them Game, but at the women who didn't buy the act.

In covering Elliot Rodger, writers aren't shy about blaming misogyny and the groups who perpetuate it

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Richard Van

10 years ago

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Richard Van

Fascinates me this was all because he was 22 and hadn't had his end away.

How did he manage to get to that age and not even get a kiss? He must have had issues because there must have been someone who found him attractive.

I get the impression that he was creepy and that contact with him made normal people's skin crawl. Look at the evidence of his personality. He believed that he had a "right" to sex, a right to a gorgeous girlfriend, that he was a "catch" ... an alpha male. In addition to being someone with that type of personality, he was only 5'2", which eliminates a lot of women from even considering it. I'm 5'8" and I was uncomfortable with dating men that were shorter than me. I only dated one (more than once) and he was only 1" shorter than me. I had to wear flats when I was with him.

His parents say he had been treated for mental illness for a long time, so clearly the feeling that he was entitled to sex was not his only problem, but I'll bet that he always had difficulties making and keeping friends, including male friends.

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Richard Van

10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

I get the impression that he was creepy and that contact with him made normal people's skin crawl. Look at the evidence of his personality. He believed that he had a "right" to sex, a right to a gorgeous girlfriend, that he was a "catch" ... a beta male. In addition to being someone with that type of personality, he was only 5'2", which eliminates a lot of women from even considering it. I'm 5'8" and I was uncomfortable with dating men that were shorter than me. I only dated one (more than once) and he was only 1" shorter than me. I had to wear flats when I was with him.

His parents say he had been treated for mental illness for a long time, so clearly the feeling that he was entitled to sex was not his only problem, but I'll bet that he always had difficulties making and keeping friends, including male friends.

Thanks Suzanne, I didn't read to much into it, I find these incidences oddly depressing.

The height won't have helped and he did seem creepy. The right to have sex and the extreme jealousy and hatred for those that were sexually active is quite funny considering that's exactly what he wanted to do.

I agree with the inability to make and keep friends, that's what I mean't. It seems more odd to me, someone relatively mentally stable most of the time, that he managed to get to that age without it. I'm sure there is much more to, I only really posted on the evidence of having watched that video.

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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

In addition to being someone with that type of personality, he was only 5'2", which eliminates a lot of women from even considering it. I'm 5'8" and I was uncomfortable with dating men that were shorter than me. I only dated one (more than once) and he was only 1" shorter than me. I had to wear flats when I was with him.

The important thing I got out of this is that Riffle doesn't have a shot with you, and I do.

(I sure hope you think that's funny)

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Dan Riffle

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

The important thing I got out of this is that Riffle doesn't have a shot with you, and I do.

(I sure hope you think that's funny)

Hey, Suzanne and I are the same height. My shot still stands. Although, my politics probably would not.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Dan Riffle

Hey, Suzanne and I are the same height. My shot still stands. Although, my politics probably would not.

The height is the most important. I could probably swing Bi on the politics thing

Originally Posted by Kay King

We can't explain this guy - he was insane.

If that were true, he'd have been locked up in some cushy private mental institution long ago. Mentally ill does not equal insanity. If he had survived this, he would go to prison rather than a mental institution, because he wouldn't have fit the legal definition of insane.

We can discuss our thoughts though on this guy because he is one of very few of these spree killers that have left a large digital footprint and a 137 page manifesto behind for all of us to see what his thought processes were.

The biggest thing that I get out of all that he left behind is that he felt entitled to sex with gorgeous white, blond girls based on the fact that he owned a BMW, paid $300 for sunglasses and dressed well. He didn't possess the social skills to actually meet one of these women and develop the relationship required to make that happen, so it seems that he felt these women might simply throw themselves at him because he was obviously such a great catch. So basically, he was a socially crippled, creepy acting guy with a huge sense of self entitlement, and enough mental illness to resort to violence when life didn't go his way.

What's even creepier is that there are whole Internet communities of guys who feel exactly as he does and says the same things as he does called incels.

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Richard Van

10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

The biggest thing that I get out of all that he left behind is that he felt entitled to sex with gorgeous white, blond girls based on the fact that he owned a BMW, paid $300 for sunglasses and dressed well.

That's what got me..."I mean look at these sunglasses (Armani or something I couldn't give a s*** about), they're $300, come on"

Come on what? What sort of women goes for blokes based on sun glasses, ok don't but you know what I mean.

"I drive a BMW", "I'm fantastic", "I'm gorgeous".

Sorry but being able to chat to people, socialise and appear a nice person is exactly why that "terrible" man that walked into a convenience store with 2 blond girls with him did so. Besides they may have been friends, they may have been his sisters, who knows but the fact he thought they should be with him I found a little odd.

Strange fixation with blonds too, what's wrong with brunettes?

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Richard Van

That's what got me..."I mean look at these sunglasses (Armani or something I couldn't give a s*** about), they're $300, come on"

Come on what? What sort of women goes for blokes based on sun glasses, ok don't but you know what I mean.

"I drive a BMW", "I'm fantastic", "I'm gorgeous".

Sorry but being able to chat to people, socialise and appear a nice person is exactly why that "terrible" man that walked into a convenience store with 2 blond girls with him did so. Besides they may have been friends, they may have been his sisters, who knows but the fact he thought they should be with him I found a little odd.

Strange fixation with blonds too, what's wrong with brunettes?

There are plenty of gold diggers around who would have sex and relationships with men based on their incomes, but this guy wouldn't fit the criteria. His mommy and daddy bought the BMW and sunglasses and clothes.

Look at Sterling. Fat old guy surrounded by gorgeous women for no other reason than he's filthy rich. For every filthy rich guy, no matter what he looks like, there's an army of gorgeous women at his beck and call.

This guy was no more than a wannabe. "He" wasn't filthy rich. You can't ride on Daddy's coattails forever.

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

The height is the most important. I could probably swing Bi on the politics thing

Could the OTHER person swing either way on politics?

Frankly, I still have suspicions about matalen and carville. YIKES!

As for height, you mentioned platforms. Some women wear high heels, and if you did, you would appear taller. So how much taller would you want your husband to be. Just curious.

If that were true, he'd have been locked up in some cushy private mental institution long ago. Mentally ill does not equal insanity. If he had survived this, he would go to prison rather than a mental institution, because he wouldn't have fit the legal definition of insane.

Well, mentally ill doesn't mean insane, but this guy clearly WAS insane. He pulled the game into reality. Of course, THAT type of behavior wouldn't be easy to spot. If you spoke enough to him, and he were candid enough, you could SUSPECT it.

As for trials, they MIGHT say WELL, it was premeditated, planned, and he even waited until he was most able to do it, so we will try him as sane.

We can discuss our thoughts though on this guy because he is one of very few of these spree killers that have left a large digital footprint and a 137 page manifesto behind for all of us to see what his thought processes were.

The biggest thing that I get out of all that he left behind is that he felt entitled to sex with gorgeous white, blond girls based on the fact that he owned a BMW, paid $300 for sunglasses and dressed well. He didn't possess the social skills to actually meet one of these women and develop the relationship required to make that happen, so it seems that he felt these women might simply throw themselves at him because he was obviously such a great catch. So basically, he was a socially crippled, creepy acting guy with a huge sense of self entitlement, and enough mental illness to resort to violence when life didn't go his way.

You're right there.

What's even creepier is that there are whole Internet communities of guys who feel exactly as he does and says the same things as he does called incels.

I hope you don't think ALL males, or even a majority, are like that.

I first heard "incel", when you mentioned it. It is INCREDIBLE that they have such forums.

Steve

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

As for height, you mentioned platforms. Some women wear high heels, and if you did, you would appear taller. So how much taller would you want your husband to be. Just curious.

I felt most comfortable with men who were above 6' or at least 6'. I could wear heels and they'd still be taller than me.

Originally Posted by seasoned

I hope you don't think ALL males, or even a majority, are like that.

I first heard "incel", when you mentioned it. It is INCREDIBLE that they have such forums.

Steve

Of course not. This is the first I've heard of it too and I never would have dreamed all the stuff I read in the incel blogs if I hadn't seen it myself.

Honestly, I would have just expected that incels would be more likely to be rapists and not bother with the whole women hatred and conspiracy theory online community thing. They even have it plotted down to "it's all the evil feminists. They are the ones who have control over men and decide who gets to mate and thereby they are the ones who determine the fate of the nation." I read that one by numerous posters. Like I said, I couldn't have imagined that even if I were consuming large amounts of magic mushrooms.

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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

I felt most comfortable with men who were above 6' or at least 6'. I could wear heels and they'd still be taller than me.

So, you are saying that being with Riffle would make you uncomfortable? Join the club.

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Honestly, I would have just expected that incels would be more likely to be rapists and not bother with the whole women hatred and conspiracy theory online community thing. They even have it plotted down to "it's all the evil feminists. They are the ones who have control over men and decide who gets to mate and thereby they are the ones who determine the fate of the nation." I read that one by numerous posters. Like I said, I couldn't have imagined that even if I were consuming large amounts of magic mushrooms.

Honestly, I didn't know these men existed. If there are hundreds (or more) of these guys, that would indicate a common cause. my guess is that some part of the brain is not functioning properly. I'll bet that an hour talking to one of these guys would indicate a problem in another area of their life as well.

Until you gave us the word "Incels", I thought this kid was just an extreme version of "I'm rich, I'm entitled, and I shouldn't have to put forth any effort."

Originally Posted by Richard Van

Strange fixation with blonds too, what's wrong with brunettes?

Well, Hitler was a brunette. And blonds are easier to find in the dark.

Originally Posted by Dan Riffle

Hey, Suzanne and I are the same height. My shot still stands. Although, my politics probably would not.

Are you kidding? I know your politics, and I still like you. Politics doesn't make you likable or unlikable. And as soon as Suzanne got a look at your chubby little cheeks, she would get all giggly....just like I did.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

So, you are saying that being with Riffle would make you uncomfortable? Join the club.

lol. Not going there.

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Honestly, I didn't know these men existed. If there are hundreds (or more) of these guys, that would indicate a common cause. my guess is that some part of th brain is not functioning properly. I'll bet that an hour talking to one of these guys would indicate a problem in another area of their life as well.

Until you gave us the word "Incels", I thought this kid was just an extreme version of "I'm rich, I'm entitled, and I shouldn't have to put forth any effort."

Yeah, me too. That's what is so mind blowing to me ... that there are lots of people like this guy. They talk just like him.

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Dan Riffle 10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

lol. Not going there.

I have a sneaky suspicion I should be insulted...
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- sbucciarel Banned 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Dan Riffle
  
  I have a sneaky suspicion I should be insulted...
  
  lol. You should probably "know" me well enough that I'm not subtle about an insult. I was trying to avoid one.
  
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  Dan Riffle 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by sbucciarel
  
  lol. You should probably "know" me well enough that I'm not subtle about an insult. I was trying to avoid one.
  
  Aha! Sneaky suspicion confirmed.
  
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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Yeah, me too. That's what is so mind blowing to me ... that there are lots of people like this guy. They talk just like him.

Years ago, I had a friend that was like this. Good looking guy, nice car, good job, smart.

And as long as we didn't talk about women, he was a nice guy. But, even at 50 years old, he was still trying to "trick" women into sleeping with him. He would insult them, objectify them, and had no social skills at all, when it came to women.

He joined dating sites, and would insult the women that talked to him "Lose 20 pounds and we'll talk"..."I only date the most beautiful women. I don't take second best". And that's what he said to them.

He was oblivious to the way he acted. And he absolutely didn't see it as his problem. About ten years ago, he insulted my wife, and that was the end of it. But I always thought he was an isolated case.

And...to be honest. I posted this, because you were paying attention to Dan Riffle...and ignoring me. And my fragile ego can't take it. Did I mention that he was short?

Originally Posted by bizgrower

I wonder if people like him could ever be given the social skills and correct values
to become a functioning and productive member of society.

Dan

Dan (The "Dan" most recommended on this Forum)

I tend to think that this is hard wired into him. Like psychopaths. It may not be a matter of values, but a flaw in perception.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Years ago, I had a friend that was like this. Good looking guy, nice car, good job, smart.

And as long as we didn't talk about women, he was a nice guy. But, even at 50 years old, he was still trying to "trick" women into sleeping with him. He would insult them, objectify them, and had no social skills at all, when it came to women.

He joined dating sites, and would insult the women that talked to him "Lose 20 pounds and we'll talk"..."I only date the most beautiful women. I don't take second best". And that's what he said to them.

He was oblivious to the way he acted. And he absolutely didn't see it as his problem. About ten years ago, he insulted my wife, and that was the end of it. But I always thought he was an isolated case.

Yeah. I don't know how or the why someone is so lacking in social skills, but it sounds like your "friend" was similar. Rodger went to a party, got drunk, tried to push a bunch of girls over a ledge, and when he was pushed himself, in his manifesto, he railed against the girls for not giving a damn about his pain and broken leg. "Not one of those girls [who he tried to push over a ledge] offered me assistance. ... and he was probably mad at them because his attempt to push them over a ledge didn't make them ravenous with desire for him. Real odd mindset there.

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

And...to be honest. I posted this, because you were paying attention to Dan Riffle...and ignoring me. And my fragile ego can't take it. Did I mention that he was short?

lol. Yes, I think you mentioned it Claude. I can plainly see that you are trying to drive a wedge between Dan and I. A real instigator.

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bizgrower

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Dan (The "Dan" most recommended on this Forum)

I tend to think that this is hard wired into him. Like psychopaths. It may not be a matter of values, but a flaw in perception.

I tend to agree and would not want my daughter to date a "reformed" incel type.

When it comes to a thing like this, I also wonder about life before even the most
primitive of status symbols and fancy cars.

Dan

PS - I'm 5' 9 1/2". Is that tall enough for you, Claude - er I mean Suzanne?.
Cruise is 5'7" and Kidman is 5'11".

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Kay King 10 years ago

I think he was insane - completely. Insane isn't necessarily a raving lunatic but can appear "sane" at times.

He planned for a year to kill women at a particular sorority. The ONE thing that went wrong was

...the girls inside didn't open the door when he pounded on it.

IN all his planning to kill he didn't think of how he would gain entrance to the sorority house. He didn't have a story or simply knock at the door - he banged on it and demanded entry and thus no one opened it.

He didn't have a fall back plan to get into the buildling - when he couldn't get in the door he walked around and started killing girls he found outside the building. He wasn't tough enough to use a gun to get in the door.

I think this was an insane person being treated by therapists as if he were 'mentally ill'.
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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

Originally Posted by bizgrower

I tend to agree and would not want my daughter to date a "reformed" incel type.

When it comes to a thing like this, I also wonder about life before even the most
primitive of status symbols and fancy cars.

Dan

PS - I'm 5' 9 1/2". Is that tall enough for you, Claude - er I mean Suzanne?.
Cruise is 5'7" and Kidman is 5'11".

Truth be told, I think 5' 7-8" is perfectly normal for a man.
It's a height that gives the minimum of back and joint problems. And the most perfectly developed body builders tend to be that height.

I just couldn't think of anything else about Riffle that I could pick on.
My wife even told me he wasn't a bad kisser......

.............Um......hmmmmmm.....Hey Wait a minute!

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Dan Riffle 10 years ago

Originally Posted by bizgrower

PS - I'm 5' 9 1/2". Is that tall enough for you, Claude - er I mean Suzanne?.
Cruise is 5'7" and Kidman is 5'11".

You forgot something, Biz: Cruise is allowed to stand on his wallet when getting measured. He's much taller than 5' 7".
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- bizgrower 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Dan Riffle
  
  You forgot something, Biz: Cruise is allowed to stand on his wallet when getting measured. He's much taller than 5' 7".
  
  The movie "The Stuntman" revolves around making a Hollywood movie.
  Peter O'Toole played the director and used the recurring line (one of my
  favorite movie lines): "King Kong was only 4 feet tall."
  
  The Stunt Man (1980) trailer - YouTube
  
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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by bizgrower

I tend to agree and would not want my daughter to date a "reformed" incel type.

When it comes to a thing like this, I also wonder about life before even the most
primitive of status symbols and fancy cars.

Dan

PS - I'm 5' 9 1/2". Is that tall enough for you, Claude - er I mean Suzanne?.
Cruise is 5'7" and Kidman is 5'11".

Quite tall enough. lol. I never really loved wearing very high heels anyway. Not only is there Cruise/Kidman, but look at Jagger and his now deceased girlfriend. She was considerably taller than him.

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Quite tall enough. lol. I never really loved wearing very high heels anyway. Not only is there Cruise/Kidman, but look at Jagger and his now deceased girlfriend. She was considerably taller than him.

OH! So it is OK if he is shorter than you, as long as you aren't in danger of neck problems because you are looking down so much.

Steve

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thunderbird

10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

That's called premeditation. He would not have been diagnosed insane in any court of law. He clearly knew right from wrong, was attending college classes, driving a car, paying bills, etc. He was mentally ill, but mentally ill is not the same as insane.

It seems like insanity to the more normal people out there, but it isn't.

It seems like insanity to the more normal people out there, but it isn't.[/QUOTE]

It is ridiculous to generalize an umbrella term -- Men's Rights Organizations -- based on the behavior of extremists. Making such extreme characterizations would be similar to basing feminism on man-hating feminist extremists who consider human fetuses to be parasites. Some men's rights organizations serve as a resource for divorced fathers. I too have come across articles that lay the blame on all sorts of targets more than the deranged perpetrator of that horrific crime. Can anything be learned from his case? That is up to experts. However, it doesn't require an expert to see that someone who stabs and shoots innocent people to death for whatever reasons was not normal. The vitriol directed towards "nice guys" is one of the silliest things I have ever read. Most nice guys I know are, well, nice without ulterior motives. Faux friendly people trying to garner advantages through psychological manipulation are NOT "nice guys." Someone who wanted to use his apartment to torture people was not a nice guy, whatever he might have called himself or imagined himself to be in his skewed mind.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by thunderbird

It is ridiculous to generalize an umbrella term -- Men's Rights Organizations -- based on the behavior of extremists. Making such extreme characterizations would be similar to basing feminism on man-hating feminist extremists who consider human fetuses to be parasites. Some men's rights organizations serve as a resource for divorced fathers.

The term in the article was "Men's Rights Activists" rather than organizations. The author apparently is familiar with some Men's Rights communities and has noted the sense of self entitlement to sex with women in those communities.

I personally don't cruise the Men's Rights communities, so have no personal knowledge of what they think they're entitled to, but clearly the perp in this case felt extremely entitled to sex with women. He was also active in Pick Up Artist communities and they are also noted for the notion that they are entitled to sex with women.

Originally Posted by thunderbird

The vitriol directed towards "nice guys" is one of the silliest things I have ever read. Most nice guys I know are, well, nice without ulterior motives.

What vitriol directed towards nice guys are you speaking of? The term nice guys was quoted only because this creep called himself "a nice guy" over and over online. He clearly wasn't a nice guy.

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thunderbird

10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

<snip>

What vitriol directed towards nice guys are you speaking of? The term nice guys was quoted only because this creep called himself "a nice guy" over and over online. He clearly wasn't a nice guy.

Evil people often don't see themselves as evil, but as good people who've been wronged and are just evening out the score. His rationale resembled that of terrorists who target innocent victims for some skewed notion of justice, only he was acting solo on his deranged mission.

Anyway, sorry about my tone. I'm in a grumpy mood.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by thunderbird

Evil people often don't see themselves as evil, but as good people who've been wronged and are just evening out the score. His rationale resembled that of terrorists who target innocent victims for some skewed notion of justice, only he was acting solo on his deranged mission.

Anyway, sorry about my tone. I'm in a grumpy mood.

No problem. "Grump" happens

Everyone is looking for answers as to why this guy would do such a thing and throwing out all kinds of theories. None of us will probably ever know the full range of his delusions since he is dead.

EDIT: Added

My curiosity got the better of me so I started exploring some of the links in the articles that are attempting to tie his crimes with mysogyny and sexual self entitlement. I came across the term "incel", which means involuntary celibacy and the tone of some of the authors is nearly as disturbing as Rogers himself. This is an excerpt from an "incel" blogger.

The kid was scum, and so were those he killed. Spoiled, stupid brats. I have no pity for, as one commentator said "blonde sorority sisters in Isla Vista". These girls were bad, immoral trash. And so was he.

He was stupid enough never to come to an idea that his money could make him look for anything he wanted in many cities abroad. Instead he remained among horrible people, and American women are the most horrible people on Earth, and ended his life in a horrific way.

What happened is a proof that incel murders people. Society that will claim incel didn't cause his pain is a sick society which thinks males should be ok with this hell. But don't get me wrong, I don't think many of you will be convinced. Sane people already knew that and insane ones never will. If you think I believe I somehow convinced more than 1 percent of the readers here you are incredibly naive. Modern "people" are utter scum and there is no way in hell they'll ever see reason. Anybody who believes that they you will understand that it is incel which drove him to suicide is a ******* retard. Maybe 1 percent of intelligent people will understand this but others are just a waste of time.

What happened is punishment for evil and violence of feminists and liberals. Any of you supporting atrocities like women's suffrage, immodest clothing, child support/alimony, no ban on adultery, ban on prostitution and a lack of female premarital chastity, all the things that drove this young man to be unable to find a girlfriend, are disgusting , horrible people and you created a culture where this is possible. Renounce these horrors now. It is a decent thing to do. It will make you healthy and sane again. It will make the world healthy and sane again.
Elliot Rodger and a note for new arrivals | thatincelblogger

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by marketingva

I hope people reading the news understand that having mental health issues does mean a person is evil. I have suffered from depression on and off my entire life and I'd rather cut off my own arm than harm anyone else.

Bonnie

Yeah, we ALL do. Depression, Mania, Autism, and AS have NOTHING to do with what Eliott did.

Psychosis explains it because the person can be detached, imagine things and think they are real, and lose any empathy or compassion. Narcissism helps explain it because he may believe he is perfect and above all else.

Steve

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thunderbird

10 years ago

Originally Posted by marketingva

I hope people reading the news understand that having mental health issues does mean a person is evil. I have suffered from depression on and off my entire life and I'd rather cut off my own arm than harm anyone else.

Bonnie

I'm glad you brought this up. I was thinking of how to say it, because it is unfair and illogical to demonize entire groups of people because of the actions of a single individual. Also, it is untrue for anyone to state that every person afflicted with any kind of mental illness wouldn't be appreciative of a listening ear or receptive to feedback or advice, or reason. Here's a positive story (that I hope gets made into a movie someday) to illustrate my point about that:
How Did Toast Become the Latest Artisanal Food Craze? - Pacific Standard: The Science of Society

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squidface

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by marketingva

I hope people reading the news understand that having mental health issues does mean a person is evil. I have suffered from depression on and off my entire life and I'd rather cut off my own arm than harm anyone else.

Bonnie

yes but i would be **** concerned if you had a room full of AK 47's at your disposal just in case you lost it one day and blam..and another 20+ dead.

USA has to start making some big changes here. You can't keep going through these mass shootings several times+ a year and nothing changes.

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marketingva

10 years ago

Originally Posted by squidface

yes but i would be **** concerned if you had a room full of AK 47's at your disposal just in case you lost it one day and blam..and another 20+ dead.

USA has to start making some big changes here. You can't keep going through these mass shootings several times+ a year and nothing changes.

This should not turn into a discussion on gun control. He killed the first three victims with a knife. The focus needs to be on how the police screwed up the welfare check. If you look at the killer's manifesto he claims he had a weapon nearby and was ready to use it on the police. How did the police miss this?

You can put a gun and ammunition in my hands and it would never get used. My personal beliefs and faith prevent me from hurting anyone else. I'm not even sure I could kill someone in self defense.

Bonnie

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goindeep

10 years ago

That's a lethal case of blue balls.

What a f***ing nut case.

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gregdavidson727

10 years ago

Here's the girl he blamed in his manifesto for sparking his hatred for females. According to her father she was only 10 years old and Elliot Rodger was 11 when she supposedly bullied him. He called her a "mean, cruel, heartless creature".

The woman the UCSB killer blamed his misogyny on | New York Post

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by gregdavidson727

Here's the girl he blamed in his manifesto for sparking his hatred for females. According to her father she was only 10 years old and Elliot Rodger was 11 when she supposedly bullied him. He called her a "mean, cruel, heartless creature".

The woman the UCSB killer blamed his misogyny on | New York Post

Just another way he was creepy. GEE, if you havea horrible crush on a girl, it doesn't make her that much more likely to like you. And she was 10!!!!

Steve

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seasoned

10 years ago

Gee, if a guy feels he is ENTITLED, doesn't get what he wants, and just insists, wouldn't the first act be RAPE? Just asking! I never would do that.

I mean killing people like this denies anyone the ability to have sex with them after that. Contrary to that insel post, it doesn't make sense.

Steve

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alistair

10 years ago

From what I heard on the news, this bloke was apparently British born. It does make me wonder that if he had grown up and lived in Britain or some other country like Australia for example, anywhere other than America, would he still have gone on to stab and shoot people to death? I know what I think.

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by alistair

From what I heard on the news, this bloke was apparently British born. It does make me wonder that if he had grown up and lived in Britain or some other country like Australia for example, anywhere other than America, would he still have gone on to stab and shoot people to death? I know what I think.

I think he WOULD, but there IS the idea of the game, hollywood mentality, and that his father was where he was. So THAT would have changed to some degree and may have affected things.

Steve

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by alistair

From what I heard on the news, this bloke was apparently British born. It does make me wonder that if he had grown up and lived in Britain or some other country like Australia for example, anywhere other than America, would he still have gone on to stab and shoot people to death? I know what I think.

In one of the articles I'm reading, it says that he chose to live in this elitist area where there were tons of Hollywood looking types, both men and women, where it would have been very competitive in every way. It went on to say that they wondered if he had moved to a more normal area if he may have had better luck with women.

I sort of doubt it because I can't help but be creeped out by this guy and think he probably had a degree of creep factor most, if not all, of his life.

His father wanted to relocate him overseas to a country that he thought he would fare better in. Rogers rejected the offer.

More on the Incel Stuff

Rodger was a poster at a blog called PUAHate.com, which was quickly taken offline when this happened. It was a blog that railed against the PUA and the way "they deceive men" into thinking that it's all about strategy.

One guy who was a reader there compiled all of Rodger' posts. The other people's posts aren't preserved, but his posts are and he clearly identifies himself as an incel and talks like the blog post I cited in the last post. Here's Rodger' posts on PUAHate.com

https://storify.com/NewSecular/ellio...ahate-comments

He seems to have been a member of quite a few forums, and probably felt very comfortable in "incel" communities, which gives some credence to a "social media" link that Kay spoke about in that he has definitely been strongly influenced by incel forums and blogs. Forums and blogs aren't really social media, but for a guy as lonely as he was, it was probably one of the few "social" outlets he had.

Someone Else: Us incels need to create a better alternate reality in our dreams

Rodger: No...no...NO! If we can't solve our problems we must DESTROY our problems. Running away from your problems is the most pathetic thing to do. Don't run away from your problems, charge right at them and shatter them. If all incels were to start getting sedated by lucid dreaming, incels will become docile and there will be no revolution. That is a very dark future and it's depressing to think about it. One day incels will realize their true strength and numbers, and will overthrow this oppressive feminist system. Start envisioning a world where WOMEN FEAR YOU.

Don't you want to punish women for rejecting you? Why settle for dreaming while other men get to experience it for real? Your idea gives women exactly what they want. They want incels out of the way. Instead incels should punish all women, along with the "alphas" that women go for. Once that is done, lucid dream all you want.

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squidface

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

In one of the articles I'm reading, it says that he chose to live in this elitist area where there were tons of Hollywood looking types, both men and women, where it would have been very competitive in every way. It went on to say that they wondered if he had moved to a more normal area if he may have had better luck with women.

I sort of doubt it because I can't help but be creeped out by this guy and think he probably had a degree of creep factor most, if not all, of his life.

His father wanted to relocate him overseas to a country that he thought he would fare better in. Rogers rejected the offer.

More on the Incel Stuff

Rogers was a poster at a blog called PUAHate.com, which was quickly taken offline when this happened. It was a blog that railed against the PUA and the way "they deceive men" into thinking that it's all about strategy.

One guy who was a reader there compiled all of Rogers posts. The other people's posts aren't preserved, but his posts are and he clearly identifies himself as an incel and talks like the blog post I cited in the last post. Here's Rogers' posts on PUAHate.com

https://storify.com/NewSecular/ellio...ahate-comments

He seems to have been a member of quite a few forums, and probably felt very comfortable in "incel" communities, which gives some credence to a "social media" link that Kay spoke about in that he has definitely been strongly influenced by incel forums and blogs. Forums and blogs aren't really social media, but for a guy as lonely as he was, it was probably one of the few "social" outlets he had.

Point is he was a nutcase and had easy access to guns, Like the Joker and countless others. Most are teenagers with psychologial disorders and have free/easy access to semi automatic weapons. Recipe for a huge disaster every time. Why is nothing being done about it?

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by squidface

Point is he was a nutcase and had easy access to guns, Like the Joker and countless others. Most are teenagers with psychologial disorders and have free/easy access to semi automatic weapons. Recipe for a huge disaster every time. Why is nothing being done about it?

uhh... He killed half of his victims with a knife and planned on running down everyone on the street with his SUV, according to his manifesto. Don't make this yet another gun thread. There are plenty of those already and it's getting boring. Typing our opinions on the topic of gun control over and over again isn't going to change anything and this thread is actually interesting.

Originally Posted by squidface

USA has to start making some big changes here. You can't keep going through these mass shootings several times+ a year and nothing changes.

Thanks for the advice on what the US needs to do. I'll forward your suggestions to the White House, Congress and the Senate immediately, and tell them that squidface says we need to get on this.

Originally Posted by squidface

yes but i would be **** concerned if you had a room full of AK 47's at your disposal just in case you lost it one day and blam..and another 20+ dead.

USA has to start making some big changes here. You can't keep going through these mass shootings several times+ a year and nothing changes.

Use the multi-quote feature if you want to go on a gun rant instead of making 3 posts in a row on the same old thing. Better yet, find one of the still open gun threads.

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Midnight Oil

10 years ago

Originally Posted by alistair

From what I heard on the news, this bloke was apparently British born. It does make me wonder that if he had grown up and lived in Britain or some other country like Australia for example, anywhere other than America, would he still have gone on to stab and shoot people to death? I know what I think.

The UK has the highest number of assaults leading to serious bodily injury than any other country on the globe.

Assault Cases per 100,000 Population
US 262, UK 2307

Beyond that:

Rape per 100,000 Population
US 28.6, UK 68.3

Cases of Robbery per 100,000 Population
US 133, UK 259

Burglary Cases per 100,000 Population
US 715, UK 2161

The US does pull ahead in intentional homicides though, but not by much.

Intentional Homicide per 100,000 Population
US 5.0, UK 3.9

http://www.civitas.org.uk/crime/crim...ecdjan2012.pdf

* :confused:

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Richard Van

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Midnight Oil

The UK has the highest number of assaults leading to serious bodily injury than any other country on the globe.

Assault Cases per 100,000 Population
US 262, UK 2307

Beyond that:

Rape per 100,000 Population
US 28.6, UK 68.3

Cases of Robbery per 100,000 Population
US 133, UK 259

Burglary Cases per 100,000 Population
US 715, UK 2161

The US does pull ahead in intentional homicides though, but not by much.

Intentional Homicide per 100,000 Population
US 5.0, UK 3.9

http://www.civitas.org.uk/crime/crim...ecdjan2012.pdf

* :confused:

In all fairness and I don't know how accurate those stats are but I'm not surprised.

We've had an open door immigration policy here for years now, I don't recognise or even speak the language of most people where I grew up. Not saying it's just there fault but I'd love to see those stats from the 80's when I was growing up.

Regarding intentional homicides, don't worry Midnight, we'll have topped that in a year or so.

No idea if being here or there would have changed him, he may just have become a serial killer or murdering rapist instead.

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alistair

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill

As far as I know mental disease doesn't care where a person lives. What are your thoughts?

I agree with this, which was kind of my point about whether he would have still gone on a mass killing spree had he grown up and lived somewhere else with mental health issues other than America, because it does seem to happen quite frequently there.

Originally Posted by Richard Van

In all fairness and I don't know how accurate those stats are but I'm not surprised.

We've had an open door immigration policy here for years now, I don't recognise or even speak the language of most people where I grew up. Not saying it's just there fault but I'd love to see those stats from the 80's when I was growing up.

Regarding intentional homicides, don't worry Midnight, we'll have topped that in a year or so.

No idea if being here or there would have changed him, he may just have become a serial killer or murdering rapist instead.

They're completely wrong. I'm not saying the stats that he links to are wrong but if you compare what figures he's wrote to the figures he links to he's calculated it all wrong.

For example he says "Rape per 100,000 Population US 28.6, UK 68.3" but if you calculate the figures he's used properly it's actually UK 22.77, not 68.3.

Same with the intentional homicides. He says "Intentional Homicide per 100,000 Population US 5.0, UK 3.9" when it's actually UK 1.3, not 3.9, according to the figures he's used.

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Richard Van

10 years ago

Originally Posted by alistair

They're completely wrong. I'm not saying the stats that he links to are wrong but if you compare what figures he's wrote to the figures he links to he's calculated it all wrong.

For example he says "Rape per 100,000 Population US 28.6, UK 68.3" but if you calculate the figures he's used properly it's actually UK 22.77, not 68.3.

Same with the intentional homicides. He says "Intentional Homicide per 100,000 Population US 5.0, UK 3.9" when it's actually UK 1.3, not 3.9, according to the figures he's used.

Alistair, I'm not even saying the original stats are correct, I'm just saying they wouldn't have surprised me, not where I am anyway. I merely looked at his stats and commented with the caveat that "I don't know how accurate they are but I wouldn't be surprised".

Actually paying attention and looking at countries populations would involve me attempting maths and not doing what I know will be more beneficial to me right now, like having a coffee, so I'll decline getting into the stats argument but I know you're a bright chap so I'm sure you've done the homework.

My point was really just that with that sort of mental illness, in this society, I think had he really wanted to, he could have easily enough hired a gun or popped down to an army surplus or authentic Japanese art shop and bought a machete or samurai sword instead.

So I think you're right. Although mental illness doesn't mind where it lives, the mind is still influenced by it's surroundings. He may not have been the same growing up in another area but he'd have had serious issues and he could have butchered just as many if not more elsewhere.

Over here we have a lack of these shootings in comparison to the States but that may not have stopped him becoming a serial rapist, killer or any myriad of potential crimes that arise from severe mental illness, incredible levels of jealousy and an all round somewhat deranged mind.

Or he may have had his end away at 13 and never worried about it.

I don't know but I agree, he wouldn't have been exactly the same over here or elsewhere, he might have got the help he needed, he may have had different friends etc, or he may have turned out just like he did and caused even more carnage.

Think about it. It took a while to catch that sniper guy shooting people, if this one had decided to be a serial rapist or killer, he might have been good at it and he's a chilling fellow I can imagine doing it.

Dennis, I agree with your point but I simply don't see how the outcome could have been the same. It could have been very similar or just totally different. That's not to say being in America made it worse and I don't think the gun issue is an issue at all here.

It may have been far worse elsewhere.

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waterotter

10 years ago

But they couldn't do that if they didn't have a search warrant - and what grounds would they have for a search warrant? They were asked to check on his "welfare" - they were not trained psychiatric professionals and he seemed fine to them so they said "you ok?" and he said "yeah - misunderstanding". That was that.

Law enforcement failed miserably IMO.

It's not clear why the sheriffs did not become aware of the videos. Attorney Alan Shifman said the Rodger family had called police after being alarmed by YouTube videos "regarding suicide and the killing of people" that their son had been posting.

Doris A. Fuller, executive director of the Virginia-based Treatment Advocacy Center, said California law has provisions that permit emergency psychiatric evaluations of individuals who pose a serious threat, but that was never triggered.

Rodger's family has disclosed their son was under the care of therapists.

"Once again, we are grieving over deaths and devastation caused by a young man who was sending up red flags for danger that failed to produce intervention in time to avert tragedy," Fuller said in a statement.

"In this case, the red flags were so big the killer's parents had called police ... and yet the system failed," she said.

Source: Alleged target of California gunman says 'it's an absolute miracle' she's alive

Simply, to many missed opportunities to justify by LE.

ETA: I've read many reports stating LE didn't even do a check to see if he had weapons. Had they done so, maybe they would have taken this more seriously?

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squidface

Banned 10 years ago

USA....when are you guys going to start regulating gun control? Every year there's at least what 4+ mass shootings. Nothing is done because your gun lobby is powerful yet the innocents suffer.

Why are you so obsessed with guns anyway?

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by squidface

USA....when are you guys going to start regulating gun control? Every year there's at least what 4+ mass shootings. Nothing is done because your gun lobby is powerful yet the innocents suffer.

Why are you so obsessed with guns anyway?

Give me a break! Most gun owners AREN'T obsessed with guns. Elliot ALSO used knives, and lack of gun access may have actually been WORSE here.

4 mass(maybe averaging 10 victims) shootings are supposed to affect the rights of over 300 MILLION people? Give me a break. Problems with like 4 states(which DID have gun control) are supposed to affect the other 46 for no good reason? And the pattern they fit is VERY telling!

We COULD get rid of sharp objects, and volatile things, like GAS! It would actually prevent MORE deaths!

Steve

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Lance K

10 years ago

Originally Posted by squidface

USA....when are you guys going to start regulating gun control? Every year there's at least what 4+ mass shootings. Nothing is done because your gun lobby is powerful yet the innocents suffer.

Why are you so obsessed with guns anyway?

Yeah, because the bad guys always follow regulations. :rolleyes:

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Dennis Gaskill

10 years ago

Originally Posted by alistair

From what I heard on the news, this bloke was apparently British born. It does make me wonder that if he had grown up and lived in Britain or some other country like Australia for example, anywhere other than America, would he still have gone on to stab and shoot people to death? I know what I think.

As far as I know mental disease doesn't care where a person lives. What are your thoughts?

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waterotter

10 years ago

Another twisted video.

Elliot Rodger's Retribution \| Elliot Rodgers...

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Saintsfan40

10 years ago

Elliot Rodger was seriously mentally ill and yet the Authorities failed to act on it. This country needs to get serious about mental health and opening up more mental institutions and asylums rather than just throwing sick people in prisons.

I watched those videos, and they are like something out of a horror movie. Except it's real which makes it a lot more scary. It's obvious he was quite intelligent. But he was so far gone mentally, the illness took control over his every move. I will say this, he would have been one hell of a damn good internet marketing guru had it not been for his warped delusions and bad outlook on life. Sad tragedy all around.

When I looked at his eyes, they were soulless and empty. Reminded me a lot of Michael Myers eyes from the original Halloween, pictured from the opening scene below. No emotion, no feelings, nothing. Just blank and creepy.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Saintsfan40

Elliot Rodger was seriously mentally ill and yet the Authorities failed to act on it. This country needs to get serious about mental health and opening up more mental institutions and asylums rather than just throwing sick people in prisons.

They already failed at State institutions big time. Not only were they overcrowded and underfunded, they were warehouses of abuse and neglect that was criminal.

The average health insurance plan has inadequate coverage for mental health, especially for ongoing or long term care.

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Saintsfan40

10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

They already failed at State institutions big time. Not only were they overcrowded and underfunded, they were warehouses of abuse and neglect that was criminal.

The average health insurance plan has inadequate coverage for mental health, especially for ongoing or long term care.

You're correct on that. And it's a shame. It's basically a lose lose situation.

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sbucciarel Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Saintsfan40

You're correct on that. And it's a shame. It's basically a lose lose situation.

... but he did come from a well off family and had mental health care from the time he was 7. He rejected mental health care and the medication that he was taking after he became adult age.

The thing is, I imagine that he could attend his college classes and go about his life, such as it was, without raising red flags until the end when he started posting the videos. Around that point, he crossed the line, but in his manifesto he claimed that he had been planning this for a good while. He had planned it for at least a year and during that time, the most anyone can say about him is he was creepy. That's not enough to get people locked up for. Unfortunately, by the time it was obvious that he was really a nutcase, it was too late.
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seasoned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by waterotter

Another twisted video.

Elliot Rodger's Retribution | Elliot Rodgers Retribution | Why Do Girls Hate Me So Much [FULL] - YouTube

WOW! $300 Giorgio armani sunglasses? I had NO idea! Why didn't women LOVE him!?!?!?

OK, THAT is pretty shallow. I could just see his pickup line now! "I'm the most attractive one here, have a $40,000 car, and $300 glasses! Want to make out!?"

Seriously, it WOULD be interesting to see how he presented himself. And I agree with suzanne, height could be a problem, for BOTH.

Steve
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mrwebmoney

10 years ago

gives me hope that people here are not just regurgitating the media line something has to be done.
Never facts in the media just platitudes and agendas.

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waterotter

10 years ago

I will say this, he would have been one hell of a damn good internet marketing guru had it not been for his warped delusions and bad outlook on life.

In the dating niche?

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Saintsfan40 10 years ago

Originally Posted by waterotter

In the dating niche?

Correct! He would have crushed it!

"How A Self Proclaimed 'Nice Guy' Got Thousands of Hot Girls In One Day"

Move over David DeAngelo.
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ErinWalsh

10 years ago

I saw a interview with neighbors(where he was living when the murders happened) of his yesterday. They said the guy was seriously creepy and "a total buzz kill." They had invited him to hang out with them a couple times and the whole time he would just sit and stare at them. He wouldn't join in the conversation, wouldn't initiate conversation, and when asked questions in an attempt to get him to talk he'd give one word responses.

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waterotter

10 years ago

Unfortunately, by the time it was obvious that he was really a nutcase, it was too late.

I made references earlier in this thread where his parents contacted LE, yet LE didn't bother to watch the videos. I believe he had posted a total of 22 videos, altogether.

LE didn't even bother to check to see if he owned any firearms. Had they done so, they would have known he had legally purchased and registered those firearms.

LE are studying the videos now, but it's a tad to late.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by waterotter

I made references earlier in this thread where his parents contacted LE, yet LE didn't bother to watch the videos. I believe he had posted a total of 22 videos, altogether.

LE didn't even bother to check to see if he owned any firearms. Had they done so, they would have known he had legally purchased and registered those firearms.

LE are studying the videos now, but it's a tad to late.

Yeah, I agree with you that law enforcement dropped the ball on this one. They should have looked at the videos immediately and gone to court to see if it were enough for a search warrant. This country is no stranger to mentally ill going off the top and committing mass murder, so it should really be at the top of the cops minds when they get a report like that.

I mean heck, one of the guys in the body building forum said "this is how shootings happen" just from reading his posts.

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Lance K

10 years ago

Perhaps the parents could have made more than one phone call. Seems they would if they were truly concerned. Maybe they did...I don't know.

My point is that playing the blame game is kind of irrelevant at this point.

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waterotter

10 years ago

Lance,

Perhaps the parents could have made more than one phone call. Seems they would if they were truly concerned. Maybe they did...I don't know.

His parents reached out to all the proper authorities three weeks ago. Not just one phone call, but many. They did so again, the night of the killings. This has all been documented.

His parents were very involved in seeking treatment for their son. They even had him living in a "structured" environment.

Rodger was living with roommates at the Independent Living Institute in Santa Barbara, a facility that offers 'living skills instruction to help adults with disabilities to live more independently in their communities

Source: Portrait of a Killer: Elliot Rodger Claimed in Video to Be 'Supreme Gentleman'

My point is that playing the blame game is kind of irrelevant at this point.

Maybe LE and other agencies can use this as a learning/teaching tool?

Jody

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sbucciarel Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by waterotter

Maybe LE and other agencies can use this as a learning/teaching tool?

Jody

May I suggest that if they don't get it after all the recent mass murders, that they are most likely severely learning disabled. I don't look for the cops to be the geniuses and heroes in these situations because it is apparent that they only come in to clean up the mess afterwards.

Granted, there are times when they have no red flags, but this time, they clearly did.
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Lance K

10 years ago

Originally Posted by waterotter

Lance,

His parents reached out to all the proper authorities three weeks ago. Not just one phone call, but many. They did so again, the night of the killings. This has all been documented.

His parents were very involved in seeking treatment for their son. They even had him living in a "structured" environment.

Source: Portrait of a Killer: Elliot Rodger Claimed in Video to Be 'Supreme Gentleman'

Maybe LE and other agencies can use this as a learning/teaching tool?

Jody

Thanks for the clarification. I honestly know very little about this situation and that is by design.

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waterotter

10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

May I suggest that if they don't get it after all the recent mass murders, that they are most likely severely learning disabled. I don't look for the cops to be the geniuses and heroes in these situations because it is apparent that they only come in to clean up the mess afterwards.

Granted, there are times when they have no red flags, but this time, they clearly did.

Yeah!

More education and a better understanding of mental illness. I'd go as far to say, set up a new department within LE. One that specializes in mental illness.

Originally Posted by Lance K

Thanks for the clarification. I honestly know very little about this situation and that is by design.

Then why are you here? :p

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Lance K 10 years ago

Originally Posted by waterotter

Then why are you here? :p

Good question.

Actually, this thread was the first I heard about the incident other than a comment made by a family member during a BBQ on Sunday. Just popped in to see if this was the same incident they were talking about. It is.
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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Yeah, I agree with you that law enforcement dropped the ball on this one. They should have looked at the videos immediately and gone to court to see if it were enough for a search warrant. This country is no stranger to mentally ill going off the top and committing mass murder, so it should really be at the top of the cops minds when they get a report like that.

I mean heck, one of the guys in the body building forum said "this is how shootings happen" just from reading his posts.

I didn't even read the bodybuilding posts until now. MAN! Narcisistic, RACIST, unjust envy, and it sounds like wording that a homosexual would use.

He seems to feel that the ULTIMATE secret is the CAR! Baring that, he feels he is just PERFECT! If worse comes to worse, he figures that, as a white, a white girl should like HIM more than she would like an indian!

The really funny thing is that, for all he knows, she could have been stranded somewhere, and the indian might have only been helping her out.

As for those videos? Apparently they were seen by his parents almost 2 WEEKS ago! He took them down briefly because they wanted them removed. And elliot did NOT take umbrage to the fact that they were referred to as:

"I see you got rid of those serial killer-esc videos on Youtube."!

Taking umbrage wouldn't mean much, but NOT doing so is tantamount to saying he plans to do just that!

Steve

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

I get the feeling that this guy really spent very little to no actual time trying to date girls. He was too socially awkward and I doubt that he asked many girls out for a date. I think that he was too intimidated by the types of women that he was after ... the blonde and beautiful goddess that seemed to be the only type of woman that he would consider.

He said that he wasn't interested in Asian women. He made fun of guys who dated them, implying that it didn't count if you couldn't get a white girl.

Neighbors said that when they invited him over, he just sat there and barely talked. He was awkward and ill at ease in social situations. When invited to one party about a year before the crime, he got very drunk and argumentative and tried to push a bunch of girls off a ledge. He ended getting pushed off the ledge instead and broke his leg and got beat up on top of it. In his manifesto, he said that delayed his plans (he already had plans to do this), because he couldn't do it in the condition he was in.

Rather than trying to socialize with people, he stood on the sidelines, watching couples and seething with rage when he saw people making out or having fun. This guy really didn't seem to be capable of having a social life.

The jealousy gets more and more deranged as the manifesto goes on. As he becomes a fan of Game of Thrones, he expresses a desire to a friend to "flay" a couple he sees in a mall food court; he seems especially enraged when men of other races are dating white women (despite his being half-Malaysian).

He feels the jealousy and sadness that all of us feel at some point when we are alone, without a romantic partner, except his loneliness manifests as a desire to cause violence for people who are happy. He starts acting out by spilling beverages on people he dislikes: coffee on a couple making out in a Starbucks, ice tea on a couple he saw in a mall whom he followed with his car. When he was 20, after two women at a bus stop didn't smile back at him when he drove by, he turned his car around and splashed them with his Starbucks latte, taking pleasure in it staining their jeans, driving away quickly before they could get his license plate. And months later, when he spotted a happy group of "popular college kids" -- "typical fraternity jocks, tall and muscular" and "beautiful blonde girls" -- playing kickball in a park, he went to a K-mart and bought a Supersoaker, which he filled with orange juice and sprayed them, driving away when they chased him, an ominous foreshadowing of the devastation he would wreak later with a real gun.

At 21, he called his parents ranting about his loneliness and virginity. They insisted he see a psychiatrist. The next month, he bought his first gun.

He writes that he discovered PUAHate.com -- the anti-pick-up-artist site -- in the Spring of 2013 and that many people there "shared [his] hatred of women [but] would be too cowardly to act on it" and that the site "confirmed his theories about how wicked and degenerate women really are." He had already started having violent thoughts and planning his "day of retribution" before visiting the site. He was seeing a psychiatrist as well as a series of "counselors," who were supposed to essentially act as friends and help him socialize, but Rodger's deranged jealousy was such that it only made him more distraught when women were attracted to his counselor and though he bonded with a female counselor, she moved away, and he didn't want another because it felt like prostitution to hire a woman to spend time with him.

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Kay King

10 years ago

I agree - he had no social life and no chance because he had no idea what happens to create male/female interaction.

He did, by all accounts, have racial issues - but I don't know what his racial makeup was.

We can't explain this guy - he was insane.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

I agree - he had no social life and no chance because he had no idea what happens to create male/female interaction.

He did, by all accounts, have racial issues - but I don't know what his racial makeup was.

We can't explain this guy - he was insane.

His mother was Malaysian and his father white, but he only "desired" white girls.

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seasoned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

His mother was Malaysian and his father white, but he only "desired" white girls.

I wasn't going to mention it, but he didn't look fully white. But HE figured he was.

Steve
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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

I get the feeling that this guy really spent very little to no actual time trying to date girls. He was too socially awkward and I doubt that he asked many girls out for a date. I think that he was too intimidated by the types of women that he was after ... the blonde and beautiful goddess that seemed to be the only type of woman that he would consider.

He said that he wasn't interested in Asian women. He made fun of guys who dated them, implying that it didn't count if you couldn't get a white girl.

Neighbors said that when they invited him over, he just sat there and barely talked. He was awkward and ill at ease in social situations. When invited to one party about a year before the crime, he got very drunk and argumentative and tried to push a bunch of girls off a ledge. He ended getting pushed off the ledge instead and broke his leg and got beat up on top of it. In his manifesto, he said that delayed his plans (he already had plans to do this), because he couldn't do it in the condition he was in.

Rather than trying to socialize with people, he stood on the sidelines, watching couples and seething with rage when he saw people making out or having fun. This guy really didn't seem to be capable of having a social life.

I bet he spent MOST of his time on that stupid game.

On the bodybuilder forum, he indicated that women don't care about a man having strength, muscles, or being fit to begin with. Normally I wouldn't mention that, but he likened such pursuits to CAVEMEN.

He also indicated that he was (to quote him) "MAGNIFICENT". In response to a statement, he said something like "Have you SEEEEEEN ME!? I'm MAGNIFICENT!".

He figured that all women should have the same taste that he does in masculine attractivity, and therefore must see him as beautiful! So he figured he met this requirement.

He DID mention niceness, and he viewed himself as being nice. So he figured he met THIS!

He also figured that material possessions, ESPECIALLY the car, were important. He said his car was the best one, and later dialed it back to better than 95% of those going to his college. So he figured he met THIS!

He ALSO figured a white woman would prefer a white over ANY other! So he figured he met THIS!

He clearly didn't give much thought to any of this. Build and fitness often DO come into play to a degree. People DO have different tastes, and he really was deluded. People have different ideas about possessions, etc... I, for one, wouldn't want a woman that would look down on me because I didn't have a ferrari.

HECK, I tried to get a laptop under $500 when I NEEDED one. It only has an i5, and 6GB, but I would have paid more if I couldn't meet what I decided as my current baseline.

I can't really speak to his being so quiet at parties. That IS an autistic/AS trait, but the desire to do this bad stuff, pulling the game into the real world, and trying to push those girls over the ledge are evidence of psychosis. I think he figured that all he wanted to do would make him a pariah, so he hid it. When he got drunk, that showed through.

Steve

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alistair

10 years ago

Nothing to see here.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Steve ... about the "insane" thing. Do you think that all of the men in the incel community who talked exactly like this guy are also insane? The only difference between them at this point is one killed some people and the others haven't ... yet.

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Richard Van

10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Steve ... about the "insane" thing. Do you think that all of the men in the incel community who talked exactly like this guy are also insane? The only difference between them at this point is one killed some people and the others haven't ... yet.

Call it what you like but that attitude towards women may not be insane but it's in line with a rather psychotic ideology and when one of them snaps, then they go insane.

Whatshisname didn't seem insane at all during the video's but he most certainly acted insane when he stabbed and shot the rest to death.

I think, I wasn't there, it just doesn't seem sane to me.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Richard Van

Whatshisname didn't seem insane at all during the video's but he most certainly acted insane when he stabbed and shot the rest to death.

I think, I wasn't there, it just doesn't seem sane to me.

That's assuming that the only reason for killing people is insanity, which isn't true. Some people are just plain evil, robbers and drug dealers kill to eliminate a witness, wives kill husbands for money, husbands kill wives to avoid splitting up assets ... there are a whole host of killers who aren't insane.

So what's so insane about a guy who's sense of self entitlement was such that he wanted to destroy anyone who didn't give him what he wanted and those who already had what he wanted. Just your average killer to me.

EDITED TO ADD

... and he wasn't even a very competent killer. He planned to lure a lot of people to his apartment and kill them on the day before. He was apparently too socially inept to get anyone to come to his apartment.

Then he planned to kill two whole sororities and everybody on the streets of Isla Vista. The fact that only six are dead, considering his grandiose plans, makes him a fairly inept killer, thank goodness.

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Richard Van

10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

That's assuming that the only reason for killing people is insanity, which isn't true. Some people are just plain evil, robbers and drug dealers kill to eliminate a witness, wives kill husbands for money, husbands kill wives to avoid splitting up assets ... there are a whole host of killers who aren't insane.

I didn't say he was insane in general. I just thought that at the moment he was plunging the knife up and down into the body, head or wherever of the 3 particular victims he may have been insane, temporarily.

So what's so insane about a guy who's sense of self entitlement was such that he wanted to destroy anyone who didn't give him what he wanted and those who already had what he wanted. Just your average killer to me.

To you yes. Insane is a word that can be bandied about for anything.

I'm not trying to argue with you Susanne. If I think he's insane, then my belief is that he's insane. You can't disprove I don't believe he's insane.

You don't believe he's insane, just an 'average' killer. I can't disprove that either.

It really doesn't matter what either of us think. He's dead along with 6 others.

... and he wasn't even a very competent killer. He planned to lure a lot of people to his apartment and kill them on the day before. He was apparently too socially inept to get anyone to come to his apartment.

I can imagine. He was inadequately socially equipped to hold hands or kiss a girl by 22. It's a bloody wonder he got anyone there.

Then he planned to kill two whole sororities and everybody on the streets of Isla Vista. The fact that only six are dead, considering his grandiose plans, makes him a fairly inept killer.

Possibly yes. Who knows what went through his mind Suzanne, he's dead though and I don't see any point in arguing whether or not you don't think he's insane or I do.

He should have been in a mental asylum though, at least for assessment and there's a few insane people in there.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Richard Van

he's dead though and I don't see any point in arguing whether or not you don't think he's insane or I do.

He should have been in a mental asylum though, at least for assessment and there's a few insane people in there.

Not an argument, Richard. Just a discussion. Of course he should have been in an institution at the time that the videos were reported to the police. They had the opportunity to at least attempt involuntary confinement, but they didn't.

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

... and he wasn't even a very competent killer. He planned to lure a lot of people to his apartment and kill them on the day before. He was apparently too socially inept to get anyone to come to his apartment.

WOW, THAT is funny! If he succeeded, he would be killing the ones he had the best chance with. IRONIC!

I generally DO consider people that are so FERVENTLY that way to be insane.

But there IS a difference between insane, and dangerous. Elliot was BOTH! He was PSYCHOTIC! That ALONE might not have been that bad! He figured he was INCEL. THAT apparently may not have been that bad.

MIX the two, and you have THIS guy! THAT is bad! ICSM

Steve

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bizgrower

10 years ago

Thanks for your diligence, Suzanne. Never heard of, or imagined, incel before.

I guess he didn't get their sarcasm:
ZZ TOP LYRICS - Sharp Dressed Man

I think we do need more of this:
Sara Cox takes on rapper Pitbull: He

It broaches upon free speech and thought police, but videos such as he posted,
and posts on "anti-social media" venues (or anti-social posts on social media sites)
should be enough probable cause to help endorse a search warrant.

This should have been in place since Columbine, or before. Combined with their
known legal, psychological, and medical history, this should be very effective.

Then the welfare check could have also become a search and probably at least led to
bringing him in for a psychiatric evaluation. Perhaps leading to criminal charges
and/or a mental health hold that would have prevented the murders.

The US mental health system does need a lot of improvement. I've known a lot of
people who need a humane place to be because they can be a harm to themselves
or others, or just really can't function in society. It's a shame that we just stopped
with the institutions instead of just improving conditions and the processes.

I wonder if people like him could ever be given the social skills and correct values to
become a functioning and productive member of society.

Dan

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by bizgrower

It broaches upon free speech and thought police, but videos such as he posted,
and posts on "anti-social media" venues (or anti-social posts on social media sites)
should be enough probable cause to help endorse a search warrant.

Actually, it IS against the law, and you CAN get a warrant! It is called the "Clear and present danger" doctrine! Clear and present danger - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Basically, if I threatened you here, right now, it would be kind of OK, since I don't know where you are, and am likely not there. If I merely IMPLIED a threat, it would be ok, because WHO KNOWS!?!?!?!?

But if I were near someone and said I was going to kill them, especially in a public forum like this, it becomes clear and present and I could be in deep trouble.

Elliot also had this odd sort of speech, odd expectations, owned guns, etc... I think the police would have a case.

BTW try threatening the president sometime, especially if you are in DC. The secret service could be knocking on your door pretty soon.

This should have been in place since Columbine, or before. Combined with their
known legal, psychological, and medical history, this should be very effective.

Then the welfare check could have also become a search and probably at least led to
bringing him in for a psychiatric evaluation. Perhaps leading to criminal charges
and/or a mental health hold that would have prevented the murders.

The US mental health system does need a lot of improvement. I've known a lot of
people who need a humane place to be because they can be a harm to themselves
or others, or just really can't function in society. It's a shame that we just stopped
with the institutions instead of just improving conditions and the processes.

Part of the problem is all the QUACKS, etc... They kept claiming stuff that wasn't there and things got SO polluted! People asked for CLARIFICATION! You know what they did? They MUDDIED the waters and REMOVED AS!

DSM-V: What Changes May Mean | Autism Research Institute

There are a LOT of ways this can play out, but there are two things that VERY likely will happen. Nice people that have AS will now be harassed and the like more. They may have more trouble getting employment, etc.... MEANWHILE psychiatrists will no longer even have to pretend to check this stuff out, and may list MORE people as having ASD. In short, it likely didn't help at all.

I wonder if people like him could ever be given the social skills and correct values to
become a functioning and productive member of society.

Yeah, NOT A CHANCE! He was TOO FAR GONE! As for social skills, etc... there are a LOT of companies even giving different info.

Besides, he didn't want to work at it. Have you SEEN HIM? He's a S@#$%^&?

Yeah, I don't even want to pretend to agree!

Steve

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by bizgrower

Thanks for your diligence, Suzanne. Never heard of, or imagined, incel before.

It broaches upon free speech and thought police, but videos such as he posted, and posts on "anti-social media" venues (or anti-social posts on social media sites) should be enough probable cause to help endorse a search warrant.

This should have been in place since Columbine, or before. Combined with their known legal, psychological, and medical history, this should be very effective.

Then the welfare check could have also become a search and probably at least led to bringing him in for a psychiatric evaluation. Perhaps leading to criminal charges and/or a mental health hold that would have prevented the murders.

The US mental health system does need a lot of improvement. I've known a lot of people who need a humane place to be because they can be a harm to themselves or others, or just really can't function in society. It's a shame that we just stopped with the institutions instead of just improving conditions and the processes.

I wonder if people like him could ever be given the social skills and correct values to become a functioning and productive member of society.

Dan

Yeah ... the thing about free speech, which of course I am for, is that one little threat to the Pres will bring visitors to your door and I'm fairly certain that a simple "it was a misunderstanding, everything is fine" won't make them go away.

So why was this any different? He made threats against himself and others, and yet, without even looking at the video, they accepted his word that everything was peachy keen. I don't get it.

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thunderbird

10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Yeah ... the thing about free speech, which of course I am for, is that one little threat to the Pres will bring visitors to your door and I'm fairly certain that a simple "it was a misunderstanding, everything is fine" won't make them go away.

So why was this any different? He made threats against himself and others, and yet, without even looking at the video, they accepted his word that everything was peachy keen. I don't get it.

Law enforcement messed up on a tragic scale with this one. How could they be so clueless and sloppy on that? It is hard to imagine a warning more loud and brazen than that one. And, yes, indeed, if had been a threat to the president or even Lady Gaga, someone else high-falutin' , the police would have acted diligently on it. They don't value the lives of "little people" common folk so much.

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bizgrower

10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Yeah ... the thing about free speech, which of course I am for, is that one little threat to the Pres will bring visitors to your door and I'm fairly certain that a simple "it was a misunderstanding, everything is fine" won't make them go away.

So why was this any different? He made threats against himself and others, and yet, without even looking at the video, they accepted his word that everything was peachy keen. I don't get it.

One of the news shows (right after it happened, and I don't recall the show or expert)
had a law enforcement expert on and the gist is that still there are teeth missing in the
process which could have prevented this type of thing. Something like just being called
to do the welfare check did not allow or was not cause for law enforcement to check his
history. There are still technicalities and data flow issues that need to be repaired.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by bizgrower

One of the news shows (right after it happened, and I don't recall the show or expert)
had a law enforcement expert on and the gist is that still there are teeth missing in the
process which could have prevented this type of thing. Something like just being called
to do the welfare check did not allow or was not cause for law enforcement to check his
history. There are still technicalities and data flow issues that need to be repaired.

I see. You know what pisses me off? If the people voted in the powers to give them more options, they'd abuse it. I can think of at least two cases where the family of a mentally ill person called a cop to come and help them with their family member and the cops came and shot them to death, which was the last thing the family wanted. Then they brush their hands and say there, call again when we can give you a hand with something.

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bizgrower

10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

I see. You know what pisses me off? If the people voted in the powers to give them more options, they'd abuse it. I can think of at least two cases where the family of a mentally ill person called a cop to come and help them with their family member and the cops came and shot them to death, which was the last thing the family wanted. Then they brush their hands and say there, call again when we can give you a hand with something.

My sister owns a rental property. About 8 years ago one of the tenants was wielding a knife
and threatening to kill people. He was shot dead by the police. My sister thinks it was not
necessary to kill. She knows more about the scenario than I, but even the cops I don't like, I want home safely. They say a knife wielding attacker can cover a twelve foot distance and do damage in seconds.

There are people with a mental illness who are not a harm to themselves or others.
But, my brother and I had a housemate who was deemed bi-polar, prescribed
medication, and deemed to not be a harm to herself or others. She called the cops
on us because she thought we stole the $15 dollars that she forgot where she spent
it. Later, we found out that she physically attacked the house mate in the next place she lived.

I wish there was a better system for those who just can't quite handle society. And,
we can't deny the harmless mentally ill people any rights, but we have to do
something to prevent these rampages.

Dan

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by bizgrower

My sister owns a rental property. About 8 years ago one of the tenants was wielding a knife
and threatening to kill people. He was shot dead by the police. My sister thinks it was not
necessary to kill. She knows more about the scenario than I, but even the cops I don't like, I want home safely. They say a knife wielding attacker can cover a twelve foot distance and do damage in seconds.

There are people with a mental illness who are not a harm to themselves or others.
But, my brother and I had a housemate who was deemed bi-polar, prescribed
medication, and deemed to not be a harm to herself or others. She called the cops
on us because she thought we stole the $15 dollars that she forgot where she spent
it. Later, we found out that she physically attacked the house mate in the next place she lived.

I wish there was a better system for those who just can't quite handle society. And,
we can't deny the harmless mentally ill people any rights, but we have to do
something to prevent these rampages.

Dan

That's all well and true. We do need better mental health care in this country and not the filthy, abusive state institutions that passed for mental health care in the 80s and 90s and earlier. I don't see the state of mental health care changing in this country. The rich can afford it, the poor cannot. Health insurers don't cover a lot of mental health care, particularly in-patient care and long term care.

That being said, if I had a family member with a mental health issue that was acting badly, I'd do anything, including locking them in their room, restraining, etc. before calling a cop. Sooner or later they've got to sleep. In one of those cases I mentioned, 4 other cops on the scene nearly had the guy talked down. Then some asshole cop from a different agency comes in, says we don't have time for this and blam, shoots the guy. IMO, he should be indicted for murder.

EDITED TO ADD

This case is nearly identical to a case in 2009, where George Sodini, who kept a blog about how he couldn't get laid and that women just didn't like him, went into a fitness center near Pittsburgh and started shooting. He killed 3 women before killing himself. He fired 36 times, so sounds like he was a bad shot.

Police: Gym shooter 'had a lot of hatred' for women, society - CNN.com

He left a document in his gym bag stating how much he hated women. He hated them because they wouldn't have sex with him.

Then I ran across this other incel blogger who wrote these two posts. Gives a different but same type of perspective. This guy is not violent and doesn't promote violence in any way. It's sad to read these posts.

Unattractive Loser Bitterness, and Causality | Boy DOESN'T Meet Girl

Sorry, but we don’t apologize for Elliot Rodger | Boy DOESN'T Meet Girl

For the non-violent incels, one thing they have in common. They still blame women for their inability to get laid. They, like Rodger, think that they are the "nice guys who finish last." That women prefer barbaric assholes who mistreat them over nice guys. Rodger believed that and so do all the incels, and they all rail at feminists.

I've read up on AS also and the core symptom appears to be social awkwardness, so it's really no wonder at all why Rodger fell into the incel category and why he had no real friends. He had no social skills to develop relationships, by all accounts.

But I don't think incel and AS explains it all. He had to have an additional mental illness that was undiagnosed to go over the line the way he did and go on a rampage.

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Kay King 10 years ago

You might do anything - or you might not be able to. A family member who is an adult does not have to listen to you or live with you. You can't watch and control someone all the time.

I've watched people try to deal with mentally ill family members and fail. A friend up north was convinced her unstable husband would never hurt her - he killed her. Another friend I've posted about before struggled to find help for her rage-driven son who was entering puberty, gaining strength...and threatening to kill his family. I think most people would be shocked at how LITTLE help was really available to them.

I think we ask too much of police when we second guess their actions taken against someone with a weapon who is threatening them. It's easy to say what we think should be done - we aren't the ones there facing someone who is acting strange, talking wild and waving a knife or gun.
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bizgrower

10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

That's all well and true. We do need better mental health care in this country and not the filthy, abusive state institutions that passed for mental health care in the 80s and 90s and earlier. I don't see the state of mental health care changing in this country. The rich can afford it, the poor cannot. Health insurers don't cover a lot of mental health care, particularly in-patient care and long term care.

That being said, if I had a family member with a mental health issue that was acting badly, I'd do anything, including locking them in their room, restraining, etc. before calling a cop. Sooner or later they've got to sleep. In one of those cases I mentioned, 4 other cops on the scene nearly had the guy talked down. Then some asshole cop from a different agency comes in, says we don't have time for this and blam, shoots the guy. IMO, he should be indicted for murder.

It does sound like indictment time for that cop. Same for any similar overzealous ones. My area (Denver, COish) has had a lot of issues with over reaction stuff like that. Several incidents where the cops shot and killed dogs, unnecessarily.

Where I used to live I laughed at one deputy. I realize now I should have let his superiors know how overly nervous he was. He would come into the local bar to do a bar check. (Always two or three deputies at a time.) This bar did have occasional fights, but it was in a small town and the ones who did fight usually knew each other and it was over some other personal drama enhanced by booze. Anyway, you could tell that this deputy was very afraid and he would unsnap his gun and have his hand over the pistol grip as he walked around
the bar. 20 years ago the town was handled by one deputy in a very Mayberry way and the personalities of the citizens are not much different.

--------------
Ya know, one thing I wonder about this shooting is if the outcome would have been
different - maybe prevented - if it did take place in a small town. I mean where the
cops know the off the record stuff about just about everybody. It seems to me the
small town cops would have more information and be able to act more effectively.

Dan

PS - One thing that's cool about taller women is that you don't have to get up from watching TV to help make popcorn. They can reach that top shelf where the popper is stored.

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

I've read up on AS also and the core symptom appears to be social awkwardness, so it's really no wonder at all why Rodger fell into the incel category and why he had no real friends. He had no social skills to develop relationships, by all accounts.

But I don't think incel and AS explains it all. He had to have an additional mental illness that was undiagnosed to go over the line the way he did and go on a rampage.

Yeah, I said earlier. The ONE marker of an ASD(AS used to be a subcategory, but now it is lumped in with ASD So FOUR dignosis are now ONE!). The ONE thing they ALL have in common is social ackwardness. Have you seen "the big bang theory"? THOSE guys are more like AS types. And NONE of them seem like they would hurt a FLEA! They ALL want sex, but realize the problem lies with THEM, and don't hold it against the women.

So HOW are the guys on the big bang theory like AS?
1. SOCIALLY ACKWARD!
2. No less than normal IQ.
3. Special interest? You could say their work fits there.
4. Hit all milestones, 4yo and younger.
5. Even the silly idea of comic books and the like fits. Many are like that.
6. Has a set way that they INSIST things should be? Sheldon fits there REAL well. Like his special diet and seating arrangements. The list of requirements for roommates.
7. Have a Set Schedule.
8. Doesn't have another diagnosis that crosses needed symptoms.
9. Able to live alone with no cognitive problems except for social.

There could be a few other things I missed. Of course they don't HAVE to have ANY except for 1,2,3,4,8,9 except for.. the last time I looked, they had to match a couple symptoms from 2 or 3 lists.

And YEAH, sheldon may be narcissistic, but he isn't psychotic. They also played games and read comic books, but realized they were NOT reality.

Steve

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by bizgrower

My sister owns a rental property. About 8 years ago one of the tenants was wielding a knife
and threatening to kill people. He was shot dead by the police. My sister thinks it was not
necessary to kill. She knows more about the scenario than I, but even the cops I don't like, I want home safely. They say a knife wielding attacker can cover a twelve foot distance and do damage in seconds.

There are people with a mental illness who are not a harm to themselves or others.
But, my brother and I had a housemate who was deemed bi-polar, prescribed
medication, and deemed to not be a harm to herself or others. She called the cops
on us because she thought we stole the $15 dollars that she forgot where she spent
it. Later, we found out that she physically attacked the house mate in the next place she lived.

I wish there was a better system for those who just can't quite handle society. And,
we can't deny the harmless mentally ill people any rights, but we have to do
something to prevent these rampages.

Dan

It WOULD be nice if they had a standard size for receipts, so you would be better able to store them. Alzheimers tends to make people psychotic and paranoid. I guess WE would be psychotic and paranoid if we KNEW things were one way, and they always changed, and heard new stuff, because we forgot to ignore it, People all look differently, etc.... Never mind that WE changed the things, and time passed, and we simply can't remember.

Steve

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by bizgrower

One of the news shows (right after it happened, and I don't recall the show or expert)
had a law enforcement expert on and the gist is that still there are teeth missing in the
process which could have prevented this type of thing. Something like just being called
to do the welfare check did not allow or was not cause for law enforcement to check his
history. There are still technicalities and data flow issues that need to be repaired.

These people LOVE discord! I would say more, but I started talking about chicago garbage maybe using THIS as an excuse, and a US marine that due to a TOTALLY INEPT government, etc..., has been in jail for TWO MONTHS!!!!!! TODAY, he had his FIRST court case(which is a SHAM), and fired his lawyer because his lawyer told him to LIE!

Ironically, so many felons never get charged with possession of a gun which is a FELONY for a felon!

Steve

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waterotter

10 years ago

Elliot Rodger's parents have not brought themselves to read the rage-filled, 137-page manifesto left by their son after he allegedly killed six people nearly a week ago, said a family friend.

"It is just awful,'' family friend and spokesperson Simon Astaire told Matt Lauer on TODAY Thursday. "It is an awful piece of writing. They're going through absolutely enough at the moment...They are mourning the victims more than they are mourning their son."

Astaire also delivered a statement from the family, the first one released since the shooting.

"We are crying in pain for the victims and their families. It breaks out hearts on a level that we didn't think possible. The feeling of knowing that it was our son's actions that caused the tragedy can only be described as hell on earth," the statement reads. "It is now our responsibility to do everything we can to help avoid this happening to any other family. Not only to avoid more innocence destroyed, but also to identify and deal with the mental issues that drove our son to do what he did."

Source: Elliot Rodger's parents 'are mourning the victims' of UCSB shooting more than son, friend says

I can't imagine the gut-wrenching pain his parents must be going through.

They haven't even read the manifesto, yet. That will kill them.

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by waterotter

Source: Elliot Rodger's parents 'are mourning the victims' of UCSB shooting more than son, friend says

I can't imagine the gut-wrenching pain his parents must be going through.

They haven't even read the manifesto, yet. That will kill them.

They KNEW this was not only possible, but LIKELY! They said that when they heard the news, they were afraid their son did it. There should be SOMETHING to hold them culpable! I mean if elliot as a kid broke a window, THEY should pay for it. If they had a DOG that caused 10 people to lose their legs, THEY should pay for it. WHAT is the difference HERE?

Steve

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

They KNEW this was not only possible, but LIKELY! They said that when they heard the news, they were afraid their son did it. There should be SOMETHING to hold them culpable! I mean if elliot as a kid broke a window, THEY should pay for it. If they had a DOG that caused 10 people to lose their legs, THEY should pay for it. WHAT is the difference HERE?

Steve

They only were afraid that their son did it when they were driving to try to find him after seeing the videos. Until then, they didn't have an inkling and provided him with a lot of mental health care. They are not culpable. Perhaps their mental health pros they hired missed some clues, but I think it's more likely that Rodger was very good at concealing his real illness. They were treating AS, not psychosis or other mental illness.

I've read that there is no correlation between AS and violence, so why would they suspect violence?

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

They only were afraid that their son did it when they were driving to try to find him after seeing the videos. Until then, they didn't have an inkling and provided him with a lot of mental health care. They are not culpable. Perhaps their mental health pros they hired missed some clues, but I think it's more likely that Rodger was very good at concealing his real illness. They were treating AS, not psychosis or other mental illness.

I've read that there is no correlation between AS and violence, so why would they suspect violence?

People with AS tend to be LESS violent, not more. Unfortunately, AS is like the only diagnosis that is usually hard to quickly see, doesn't require the person to be insane or stupid(though EITHER would contraindicate AS), and WAS in the DSM(DSM V just came out, and doesn't include it). That makes it a diagnosis "mental health professionals" hand out like candy! The parents probably KNEW he didn't have AS. Any advice for AS is something elliot wouldn't listen to. HE figured he was perfect, and everyone else conspired to deny him what he figured he deserved.

Steve

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waterotter

10 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

They KNEW this was not only possible, but LIKELY! They said that when they heard the news, they were afraid their son did it. There should be SOMETHING to hold them culpable! I mean if elliot as a kid broke a window, THEY should pay for it. If they had a DOG that caused 10 people to lose their legs, THEY should pay for it. WHAT is the difference HERE?

Steve

Steve,

They had already contacted the authorities and they did nothing.

Furthermore, the father only saw the "Retribution" video, just before leaving to go find his son. Elliot emailed his parents (and others) the manifesto, and the mother decided to take a quick look on YouTube to see if there was anything else. She then informed her ex-husband about the video and email (I don't think she watched the entire video).

Elliot sent out that email just prior to the attacks.

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by waterotter

Steve,

They had already contacted the authorities and they did nothing.

Furthermore, the father only saw the "Retribution" video, just before leaving to go find his son. Elliot emailed his parents (and others) the manifesto, and the mother decided to take a quick look on YouTube to see if there was anything else. She then informed her ex-husband about the video and email (I don't think she watched the entire video).

Elliot sent out that email just prior to the attacks.

That isn't what elliot and the others said on the BB forum!

Steve

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waterotter

10 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

That isn't what elliot and the others said on the BB forum!

Steve

It's quite obvious he hid a lot from everyone and was able to fool people.

I read the BB forum excerpts - he was quite comfortable in speaking freely there. That was a hidden passion, that I bet nobody really knew about until it was to late.

I know people were aware of his disdain for women, but did they know how deep-seeded it really was? Hence, the various forums he was posting on.

I don't think anyone foresaw a 142 page manifesto.

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by waterotter

It's quite obvious he hid a lot from everyone and was able to fool people.

I read the BB forum excerpts - he was quite comfortable in speaking freely there. That was a hidden passion, that I bet nobody really knew about until it was to late.

I know people were aware of his disdain for women, but did they know how deep-seeded it really was? Hence, the various forums he was posting on.

I don't think anyone foresaw a 142 page manifesto.

Yeah, DESPITE what the feminists say, most disdain doesn't rise to the level of misogyny and elliots behavior is FAR beyond even misogyny.

Yeah, there are a LOT of manifestos out there! Do ALL of these guys do that?

Steve

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Yeah, DESPITE what the feminists say, most disdain doesn't rise to the level of misogyny and elliots behavior is FAR beyond even misogyny.

Yeah, there are a LOT of manifestos out there! Do ALL of these guys do that?

Steve

No, they don't. There are a lot of incel bloggers. One that I cited on page two I think is clearly one demented individual and I would place him at a high risk for violence. But in this post, above
http://www.warriorforum.com/off-topi...ml#post9229294

I found this blog and these two articles in it. If you're interested in this incel thing, I suggest you read this. It is both enlightening and very sad at the same time.

Unattractive Loser Bitterness, and Causality | Boy DOESN'T Meet Girl
Sorry, but we don’t apologize for Elliot Rodger | Boy DOESN'T Meet Girl

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

No, they don't. There are a lot of incel bloggers. One that I cited on page two I think is clearly one demented individual and I would place him at a high risk for violence. But in this post, above
http://www.warriorforum.com/off-topi...ml#post9229294

I found this blog and these two articles in it. If you're interested in this incel thing, I suggest you read this. It is both enlightening and very sad at the same time.

Unattractive Loser Bitterness, and Causality | Boy DOESN'T Meet Girl
Sorry, but we don't apologize for Elliot Rodger | Boy DOESN'T Meet Girl

The GUYS, in "do all these guys..." was the mass murderers. I didn't mean the INCELs. And I am not interested in them at all. I read that BB forum after you pointed me to it. I TRIED to see if anything NEW developed, but it looks like the thread was dropped. But NO, I have enough things to deal with.

ANYWAY, hitler, the unabomber, that norwegian guy, and most, if not all of the guys shooting, etc.... left manifestos.

Steve

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bizgrower

10 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

The GUYS, in "do all these guys..." was the mass murderers. I didn't mean the INCELs. And I am not interested in them at all. I read that BB forum after you pointed me to it. I TRIED to see if anything NEW developed, but it looks like the thread was dropped. But NO, I have enough things to deal with.

ANYWAY, hitler, the unabomber, that norwegian guy, and most, if not all of the guys shooting, etc.... left manifestos.

Steve

Sooo many of them do telegraph what they are going to try to do.
Add the Columbine murderers to the list. (I'm not sure if they left a
manifesto, per se, but stuff like diaries and videos.)

These things should serve as red flags for family, friends, roommates,
acquaintances, and most definitely law enforcement so more than
"welfare" checks get done, or they get dismissed somehow.

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Kay King

10 years ago

I think the friend nailed it in this case:

'I could never have possibly imagined anything like this was going to happen. What people need to realize is you cannot rationalize or explain this. He obviously had a serious mental illness; that he was able to hide from the world.

'Everyone is focusing on Elliot's lack of success with women, but they need to appreciate he was unable to communicate with anyone. He was so shy and painfully awkward. He had a boring personality and he didn't talk.

'He would never dream of approaching a girl, he just expected them to come to him, which they didn't. Even if any of them ever had, it wouldn't have lasted long, because he wouldn't chat to them.

We want answers because we need to understand "what happened" to make it less frightening. If his few friends didn't see this or thought he was getting enough help....no one else would have seen it coming.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

I think the friend nailed it in this case:

We want answers because we need to understand "what happened" to make it less frightening. If his few friends didn't see this or thought he was getting enough help....no one else would have seen it coming.

Except that the "friend" was someone who saw him about twice a year and admitted that the "friendship" was more in Rodger's mind than reality. He said he talked to him pretty much because he felt sorry for him.

It's pretty clear that the social awkwardness, which is a symptom of AS, is such that he grew up feeling very alone, without the usual connections, friends and relationships that most of us have. He described his life as a living hell, and I'm sure it was, in spite of his parent's wealth and attention. I can't imagine growing up without those relationships.

He then finds a community online who is a lot like him and a common thread in their discussions is their hatred of women. He self-identified with these people and adopted their lingo and beliefs, only he was mentally enough to act on it.

I don't think there's any mystery about why he did what he did. He did leave 140 and over 20 videos explaining exactly why he did what he did. The only mystery is how he managed to convince all of his psychiatrists and counselors and parents that he was just a wee bit odd and awkward rather than dangerously mentally ill.

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

He then finds a community online who is a lot like him and a common thread in their discussions is their hatred of women. He self-identified with these people and adopted their lingo and beliefs, only he was mentally enough to act on it.

I don't think there's any mystery about why he did what he did. He did leave 140 and over 20 videos explaining exactly why he did what he did. The only mystery is how he managed to convince all of his psychiatrists and counselors and parents that he was just a wee bit odd and awkward rather than dangerously mentally ill.

Well, with AS, I guess we will part ways there. Elliot WAS psychotic. He DID seem to pull that game into reality. So it was clearly as much of an influence as anything.

And probably MOST men hate some woman in some way. That doesn't mean that particular man will even slap a woman, much less kill her. YEAH, there are men that abuse women. Even most of THEM probably wouldn't kill. But I can tell you that my mother, for example, went out with several guys, sometimes even had heated arguments, and she never even CLAIMED anyone so much as slapped her.
I don't think anyone I knew personally ever had that problem.

I don't imagine the psychiatrists cared that much. As for the videos, they say what he wants people to know. They didn't say what started it all. Things at that level are probably uncommon.

Steve

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

And probably MOST men hate some woman in some way.

Steve

Really? Interesting.

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Richard Van

10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Really? Interesting.

I thought that too.

I certainly don't hate 'women'. There are one or two individual women I seriously dislike but no less than some individual men, I don't do generalisations as I find them rather ignorant.

That's quite normal though and they're just life experiences and situations we found ourselves in to create that dislike. I have no intention of killing them though.

I did watch a video yesterday that claimed to be all of his photo's on Facebook. Besides the incredible wealth and luxury he enjoyed at such a young age the thing that stood out for me was that besides pictures of him and family every other photo was a selfie or picture taken of him alone. Assuming it was true and I've no idea, that has got to be the first FB photo section I've seen of someone with absolutely no pictures of a single friend.

Having said that I saw another video of him at what appeared to be a pool party in a very nice garden and he was filming friends there, there were girls and though he didn't speak I'd be surprised he'd attend something like that if he was so unbelievably shy.

On top of that the self admiration, gorgeousness and magnificence he saw in himself, well, I'm confident but I never saw myself quite like that.

I'm sure other have though

. Did I just say that?

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Richard Van

I thought that too.

I certainly don't hate 'women'. There are one or two individual women I seriously dislike but no less than some individual men, I don't do generalisations as I find them rather ignorant.

That's quite normal though and they're just life experiences and situations we found ourselves in to create that dislike. I have no intention of killing them though.

Yeah, I've more than one divorce and a bad relationship or two and I don't in any way hate men. Actually, I really enjoy talking to men.

Originally Posted by Richard Van

I did watch a video yesterday that claimed to be all of his photo's on Facebook. Besides the incredible wealth and luxury he enjoyed at such a young age the thing that stood out for me was that besides pictures of him and family every other photo was a selfie or picture taken of him alone. Assuming it was true and I've no idea, that has got to be the first FB photo section I've seen of someone with absolutely no pictures of a single friend.

Yeah, I read that his Facebook page was a few pics of events (red carpet and others) and then a bunch of selfies. Not surprising though since he didn't really have friends to speak of.

Originally Posted by Richard Van

On top of that the self admiration, gorgeousness and magnificence he saw in himself, well, I'm confident but I never saw myself quite like that.

I'm sure other have though

. Did I just say that?

Makes me wonder if AS know they're AS and know how that effects their lives. He seemed to think having expensive stuff should have been enough to draw females in with no effort on his part. Doesn't seem at all to realize that his extreme social awkwardness was the reason he didn't have friends and girlfriends. I don't think he thought of himself as extremely shy and socially awkward. It seems he thought of himself as a real catch.

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seasoned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Really? Interesting.

I said SOME and SOME! I guess I could say the same about women, but that wasn't the point here.

I'll leave it at that.

Richard,

There are probably a good number of shy people that, at various times, attended great parties, etc.... If only to be there, say hi and HOPE they are less shy at that point. It would be like a person afraid of flying going on a plane. I have spoken with some in that position, and have been in that position. And I could see how that could make him angrier, but angrier at HIMSELF, NOT the others.

Steve
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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

And probably MOST men hate some woman in some way.

Steve; That's an odd thing for you to say. And that's saying something.

I've only known a few men like that, and they were damaged. The same with women that hate men in some way.

Sure, all women are crazy. And they can't drive worth a flip. And they have these weird bumps on their chest...and they wear their hair too long, like a hippie...and they wear makeup...which is just gay.....and most of them won't have sex with me...which is just wrong.... but hate them? In any way? that's just weird.

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bizgrower

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Steve; That's an odd thing for you to say. And that's saying something.

I've only known a few men like that, and they were damaged. The same with women that hate men in some way.

Sure, all women are crazy. And they can't drive worth a flip. And they have these weird bumps on their chest...and they wear their hair too long, like a hippie...and they wear makeup...which is just gay.....and most of them won't have sex with me...which is just wrong.... but hate them? In any way? that's just weird.

Can you post pictures of these weird bumps that you speak of? It would help
us decipher and categorize them.

If they are hippies, don't wear makeup, don't really have weird bumps, and have sex with you,
are they still women?

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by bizgrower

Sooo many of them do telegraph what they are going to try to do.
Add the Columbine murderers to the list. (I'm not sure if they left a
manifesto, per se, but stuff like diaries and videos.)

These things should serve as red flags for family, friends, roommates,
acquaintances, and most definitely law enforcement so more than
"welfare" checks get done, or they get dismissed somehow.

By manifesto, I mean they list, as THEY see it, WHY they started it, what their goals were, what they plan to have accomplished, etc...

Steve

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thunderbird 10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

No, they don't. There are a lot of incel bloggers. <snip>

I checked out the domain InCel.com, but it's getting no action.
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derekwong28

10 years ago

At 22, he is an adult and is responsible for his own actions. I don't think there is anymore that his parents could have done. Now everybody agrees that he is totally insane. I wonder what would have happened if he had been caught alive and tried. My guess is that the public opinion would be so fierce that it would not be possible to use insanity as a defense. For a start, he had planned this for a long time.

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by derekwong28

At 22, he is an adult and is responsible for his own actions. I don't think there is anymore that his parents could have done. Now everybody agrees that he is totally insane. I wonder what would have happened if he had been caught alive and tried. My guess is that the public opinion would be so fierce that it would not be possible to use insanity as a defense. For a start, he had planned this for a long time.

Still, they hid it for all those years!

Steve

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Still, they hid it for all those years!

Steve

They did no such thing. They treated it. They provided him with mental health care and they were still providing it. The offered to relocate him to another country where he might do better. They paid for his independent living apartment in Santa Barbara, they educated him. These parents weren't in the least bit negligent. Towards the end, as an adult, he refused their mental health counselors. He also refused any medication. It's in no way their fault that this kid did this.

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

They did no such thing. They treated it. They provided him with mental health care and they were still providing it. The offered to relocate him to another country where he might do better. They paid for his independent living apartment in Santa Barbara, they educated him. These parents weren't in the least bit negligent. Towards the end, as an adult, he refused their mental health counselors. He also refused any medication. It's in no way their fault that this kid did this.

Just going by what he and the others on the BB forum said. Elliot said they saw these "serial killer esk" videos on his account.

Steve

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Just going by what he and the others on the BB forum said. Elliot said they saw these "serial killer esk" videos on his account.

Steve

Yes, and that was just before the crime. Rodgers' parents had him take them down and the cops were called and we all know what resulted from that. Nothing. This family did everything a family can do for an adult son with mental health issues. They were financially in the position that money did not matter, so he had numerous counselors and psychiatrists helping him.

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Yes, and that was just before the crime. Rodgers' parents had him take them down and the cops were called and we all know what resulted from that. Nothing. This family did everything a family can do for an adult son with mental health issues. They were financially in the position that money did not matter, so he had numerous counselors and psychiatrists helping him.

The dates indicated that it was like 10 days earlier.

Steve

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waterotter

10 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Just going by what he and the others on the BB forum said. Elliot said they saw these "serial killer esk" videos on his account.

Steve

The sheriff's deputies who visited Rodger had not seen online videos in which he threatened suicide and violence, even though those recordings were what prompted his parents to call authorities, the Associated Press reported.

I

t's not clear why the sheriffs did not become aware of the videos. Attorney Alan Shifman said the Rodger family had called police after being alarmed by YouTube videos "regarding suicide and the killing of people" that their son had been posting.

Source: Sheriff highlights mental-health shortcomings after California killings

There had been more than 22 videos uploaded to his account. The "Day of Retribution" video had been uploaded then removed only to be uploaded again just prior to the killings.

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by waterotter

I
t's not clear why the sheriffs did not become aware of the videos. Attorney Alan Shifman said the Rodger family had called police after being alarmed by YouTube videos "regarding suicide and the killing of people" that their son had been posting.

Source: Sheriff highlights mental-health shortcomings after California killings

There had been more than 22 videos uploaded to his account. The "Day of Retribution" video had been uploaded then removed only to be uploaded again just prior to the killings.

OK! WOW! And the police simply let him say he was OK? SOMEONE REALLY messed up!

OK, I take back what I said about the family regarding THIS. Sorry.

Steve

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waterotter

10 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

OK! WOW! And the police simply let him say he was OK? SOMEONE REALLY messed up!

OK, I take back what I said about the family regarding THIS. Sorry.

Steve

This tragedy could have been avoided. There were so many red flags early on.

During Santa Barbara County Sheriff Bill Brown's second press conference about Friday's mass killing, he clearly implied that the purpose of a "wellness check" is to see whether someone is physically OK and has come to no harm.

That is untrue, and the sheriff had to know it. The truth is that a wellness check is performed when a mental health professional's concern about a patient rises to such a fever pitch that he or she decides it is imperative to send police, on an emergency basis, to determine if that person should be evaluated by a psychiatrist right away - involuntarily, if need be.

Rodger didn't convince them he was doing just fine. The police convinced themselves that they alone could determine whether Rodger was doing just fine, .....

Sheriff Brown never explicitly stated that the police had every right under the law to bring Rodger to an emergency room - not just if they heard something they considered a grave sign of danger, but simply to get an expert opinion as to whether Rodger represented such a danger.

Sheriff Brown never stated that his officers directly contacted Rodger's therapist, who might have told them that Rodger had refused to take antipsychotic medications, though his clinician(s) believed they were indicated.

Sheriff Brown never stated that his officers asked to look around Rodger's apartment (which is an exceedingly reasonable part of a wellness check). If they had, they would have discovered, according to Mr. Rodger's own writings, his weapons and other elements of his plans for a massacre.

Here's the truth: While the Santa Barbara county Sheriff Deputies who responded to the Rodger case are absolutely heroic for engaging him in gun battles, those battles never would have happened if the officers hadn't bungled the case. The lawsuits against the county of Santa Barbara that will flow from survivors of the dead and maimed - which I predict will result in judgments against the county in the tens of millions dollars - will prove this point. And I predict that Rodger's therapist - given that he or she knew of the videos and had spoken with Rodger at length before his crimes - won't look like any hope for the future of mental health care in America, either.

Excellent article: Our mental health care system is a joke -- even mass murderer Elliot Rodger slipped through the cracks

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waterotter

10 years ago

I've read that there is no correlation between AS and violence, so why would they suspect violence?

Yeah, this is kinda the same situation as Adam Lanza who had AS.

Sometimes the med's do help, it's when they stop taking them that has serious consequences.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by waterotter

Yeah, this is kinda the same situation as Adam Lanza who had AS.

Sometimes the med's do help, it's when they stop taking them that has serious consequences.

I don't know enough about AS, except that violence is not one of the symptoms of AS. Social awkwardness is, resulting in loneliness and being the odd one out in social situations.

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waterotter

10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

I don't know enough about AS, except that violence is not one of the symptoms of AS. Social awkwardness is, resulting in loneliness and being the odd one out in social situations.

Are people with Asperger's Syndrome more likely to be involved in criminal activities?

Some people with AS have found themselves before the criminal justice system for a variety of offences that are usually related to their special interests, sensory sensitivity or strong moral code. If a person's special interest is of a dangerous nature it can sometimes lead them into unusual crimes associated with that interest. The courts are becoming increasingly aware of the nature of AS and are responding accordingly. More often than not, individuals with AS are more likely to be victims than offenders. Their naivety and vulnerability make them easy targets.

Source: Aspergers Syndrome Foundation - Frequently Asked Questions

I think his online activities speak for themselves.

ETA: I also think there was more involved than AS.

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seasoned

10 years ago

Some people with AS have found themselves before the criminal justice system for a variety of offences that are usually related to their special interests, sensory sensitivity or strong moral code. If a person's special interest is of a dangerous nature it can sometimes lead them into unusual crimes associated with that interest. The courts are becoming increasingly aware of the nature of AS and are responding accordingly. More often than not, individuals with AS are more likely to be victims than offenders. Their naivety and vulnerability make them easy targets.

Originally Posted by waterotter

Source: Aspergers Syndrome Foundation - Frequently Asked Questions

I think his online activities speak for themselves.

ETA: I also think there was more involved than AS.

That could be read several ways. There is a chasm between what the writer mayhave meant, and what elliot did. HECK, I develop an interest in some things at various times, and may follow it to a conclusion FAR beyond what many expect. I actually tracked down a witness for a theft I had. UNFORTUNATELY, I suddenly realized that was ALL I could do. Had I gone one step further, the criminal could know the jig was up, and I could end up being accused of filing an invalid police report, etc... So I gave THAT evidence to the police as well.

If I HAD continued, I "could have been lead into a crime of a dangerous nature". Dangerous to ME! As it says: "AS are more likely to be victims than offenders. Their naivety and vulnerability make them easy targets.".

Steve

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gregdavidson727

10 years ago

On page 42 of his 141 page manifesto he says,

"As middle school approached its ultimate end, I was having a miserable time there. I was extremely unpopular, widely disliked, and viewed as the weirdest kid in the school. I had to act weird in order to gain attention. I was tired of being the invisible shy kid. Infamy is better than total obscurity".

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by gregdavidson727

On page 42 of his 141 page manifesto he says,

"As middle school approached its ultimate end, I was having a miserable time there. I was extremely unpopular, widely disliked, and viewed as the weirdest kid in the school. I had to act weird in order to gain attention. I was tired of being the invisible shy kid. Infamy is better than total obscurity".

WOW! So he TRIED to create the persona that later made it less likely that he would get what he wanted!

Steve

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bizgrower

10 years ago

AS in and of itself does not seem related to violence.
I think it MAY contribute to a cycle though.
Awkwardness/being "different" > rejection > frustration > anger/depression.
Anger and depression (and on and off meds...) are what lead to the violence.

Really depressed people can kill themselves or others.

-----------

My nephew has schizophrenia. Typical adult onset at 25 years old.
He was very, very high functioning until it showed. No signs of anything
wrong with him until then. By that time, he was an independent adult.
When it manifested, he thought the devil was after him at an Amtrack
station. Tore up the station and got arrested... Lots of other episodes
since then. But, he is an adult and you cannot force him to stay on meds...

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by bizgrower

AS in and of itself does not seem related to violence.
I think it MAY contribute to a cycle though.
Awkwardness/being "different" > rejection > frustration > anger/depression.
Anger and depression (and on and off meds...) are what lead to the violence.

Really depressed people can kill themselves or others.

Normally I would agree with you, but things aren't always so cut and dried. And AS people get a LOT of frustration and anger. There are comorbids they often have that create circumstances that can make a normal situation VERY painful for them, and others won't understand. IMAGINE the frustration and anger! Yet it doesn't meet this level.

My nephew has schizophrenia. Typical adult onset at 25 years old.
He was very, very high functioning until it showed. No signs of anything
wrong with him until then. By that time, he was an independent adult.
When it manifested, he thought the devil was after him at an Amtrack
station. Tore up the station and got arrested... Lots of other episodes
since then. But, he is an adult and you cannot force him to stay on meds...

Yeah, and I think it is clear Elliot had the same thing.

Steve

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waterotter

10 years ago

This from Rodger's best friend, who also received the manifesto by email.

One of the Virgin Killer's best friends has told how his world has been turned upside down by Elliot Rodger's bloody massacre, saying: 'I can't believe I was friends with a psychopathic, mass murderer'.

'I honestly had no idea he was being treated for mental health problems, but when his mum told me that I felt reassured and thought, that's it, case closed, the issue is being dealt with. His parents loved him and they never pushed him away.

EXCLUSIVE: 'I tried to offer him advice on talking to girls, but he wouldn't do it': Virgin killer's best friend reveals he warned his mother about disturbing Facebook post months ago

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georgestanley032

10 years ago

The guy was probably broke when he did that. I think the blame for his unacceptable act will be awarded to his parents. The parents might have been too busy and not realizing that their son needs and immediate attention.

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by georgestanley032

The guy was probably broke when he did that. I think the blame for his unacceptable act will be awarded to his parents. The parents might have been too busy and not realizing that their son needs and immediate attention.

You know. Now that I think about it, it IS interesting that he doesn't have a buggati. I mean LOOK at it!:

2013 Bugatti Veyron 16.4 - Specifications, Pictures, Prices

Only 1.3million! And it can go 253 MPH! Sadly, that is only if you can get to a gas station within 12 minutes. OK, OK, so it doesn't exactly eat like a bird!

But elliot thought the most important thing was the CAR! Shouldn't THIS have then got him a date?

I used to know POOR people with BMWs! Mercedes were better than those BMWs, and it seems all the TAXIS in europe were mercedes! How many bugattis have you seen on the road?

A special key is required to "unlock" the Veyron's top speed of 250+ mph. The car is then lowered to just 3.5 inches from the ground. A hydraulic spoiler extends at speed, and it can also serve as an air brake.
The Veyron weighs a hulking 4,160 lbs, but even its harshest critics admit its handling is surprisingly sharp. Gordon Murray, designer of the McLaren F1 was very skeptical of the Veyron during its development, but after driving the finished car, he conceded it is a "huge achievement."
Top Gear's Jeremy Clarkson also publicly stated the Veyron was ridiculous and would never be built, only to call it "best car ever made" after he drove it. He famously characterized it as "utterly, stunningly, mind blowingly, jaw droppingly brilliant."

Steve

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waterotter

10 years ago

We want answers because we need to understand "what happened" to make it less frightening. If his few friends didn't see this or thought he was getting enough help....no one else would have seen it coming.

Apparently, a couple of former roommates knew something was off.

At the time of the killings, one of his current roommates was preparing to move out.

A FORMER roommate of mass murderer Elliot Rodger says he moved out of the apartment he shared with the disturbed youth because he had a “bad feeling”.
In a courageous interview with ABC News Chris Rugg, a film major at the University of California in Santa Barbara, also reveals he has regrets not acting on signs Rodger needed help.
Rugg said he and another male student left the apartment they shared with Rodger last June because they were “getting really uncomfortable living there.”

Rugg said his roommate told him that he believed Rodger had a firearm because he could hear a gun “clicking.”
“I didn’t hear the clicks, but he said that he would click the gun over and over and the way the room is set up you could see the silhouette of everything that’s going on there,” Rugg told ABC News.

Looking back at the deadly rampage, Rugg said there were warning signs that something wasn’t right. He regrets not acting to prevent the tragedy that unfolded.
“I realised that if I am not surprised that this is something he would have done then why did I not say anything?” Rugg told ABC News.

Source: Elliot Rodger’s former roommate tells what it was like to live with the mass murderer

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seasoned 10 years ago

WOW, DEMENTED! That was the first time I heard that,

Steve
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KenThompson

10 years ago

Here's an interview with a couple of psychologists who raise the interesting observation that Rodgers very likely would have done something like this even if things were different in his life; i.e. if he had a girlfriend, sex, was not a virgin at his age, etc.

Psychologists: Elliot Rodger Would Still Have Gone On Killing Spree Even If He Had Sex With Women « CBS Connecticut

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by KenThompson

Here's an interview with a couple of psychologists who raise the interesting observation that Rodgers very likely would have done something like this even if things were different in his life; i.e. if he had a girlfriend, sex, was not a virgin at his age, etc.

Psychologists: Elliot Rodger Would Still Have Gone On Killing Spree Even If He Had Sex With Women « CBS Connecticut

Yeah, don't forget lorenna bobbit! HER excuse was that she didn't have as much fun as john seemed to!

Steve

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by KenThompson

Here's an interview with a couple of psychologists who raise the interesting observation that Rodgers very likely would have done something like this even if things were different in his life; i.e. if he had a girlfriend, sex, was not a virgin at his age, etc.

Psychologists: Elliot Rodger Would Still Have Gone On Killing Spree Even If He Had Sex With Women « CBS Connecticut

Like I said :

Psychotic, so he had these delusions, wanted to follow that game, and had no attachments to anyone and just didn't care.

Narcissistic, so he loved himself so much and figured he was a gift to the planet.

So it wasn't so much that he didn't get sex, but didn't get what he wanted. Had he wanted a buggatti, and was denied,he might have killed his family!

BTW last I knew, car insurance in the US for males didn't drop until 25. So it likely would have cost more for him!

Steve

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by KenThompson

Here's an interview with a couple of psychologists who raise the interesting observation that Rodgers very likely would have done something like this even if things were different in his life; i.e. if he had a girlfriend, sex, was not a virgin at his age, etc.

Psychologists: Elliot Rodger Would Still Have Gone On Killing Spree Even If He Had Sex With Women « CBS Connecticut

Interesting article and they might be right. We'll never really know of course, but I found the article a little odd in that AS was only mentioned as an afterthought towards the end, but his inability to make social connections was discussed a lot. Isn't it the same thing? He was diagnosed with AS by his own doctors.

They added narcissism and lack of empathy for others and his inability to see his own responsibility for his lack of social connections.... the blaming everyone else for it.

It had to be a painfully lonely life. Makes me wonder. While reading a couple of the incel blogs, I saw it mentioned that there were self-described male and female incels. It does beg the question ... why don't they get together? Don't know if it would have helped him in particular, but incels in general. Seems like they'd have incel clubs, incel gatherings, incel events where they can all meet and uhhhh ... socialize.

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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

While reading a couple of the incel blogs, I saw it mentioned that there were self-described male and female incels. It does beg the question ... why don't they get together? Don't know if it would have helped him in particular, but incels in general. Seems like they'd have incel clubs, incel gatherings, incel events where they can all meet and uhhhh ... socialize.

I think I know. Their pain, loneliness, inflated self image...are who they are. An actual relationship would disturb that image.
Can you imagine two completely self absorbed delusional people getting together? It would last 5 minutes.
It's like sick people who completely identify themselves with their disease. We all know at least one. The cancer survivor that can't talk about anything else. or someone who always talks about how hard their life is. That's who they are. And anything that disturbs that image...is avoided.
Everything I said is just an observation, based on my experience.

by the way, here's one of those Incel website posts;
http://jezebel.com/incel-misogynist-...-dat-508518581

Someone there said (quoting a different post)
"I have begged my mother and my therapist to sleep with me out of desperation."

We've all been there, buddy.

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thunderbird

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

I think I know. Their pain, loneliness, inflated self image...are who they are. An actual relationship would disturb that image.
Can you imagine two completely self absorbed delusional people getting together? It would last 5 minutes.
It's like sick people who completely identify themselves with their disease. We all know at least one. The cancer survivor that can't talk about anything else. or someone who always talks about how hard their life is. That's who they are. And anything that disturbs that image...is avoided.
Everything I said is just an observation, based on my experience.

by the way, here's one of those Incel website posts;
"Incel" Misogynist Wants Government To Pay Women To Date Him

Someone there said (quoting a different post)
"I have begged my mother and my therapist to sleep with me out of desperation."

We've all been there, buddy.

Those are very interesting and lucid observations and insights. It does explain a lot. I think people choose paths that are directed by a premise. The premise can be, "I'm a winner. I'll adjust to challenges and setbacks" or "I'm useless and unskilled" or "the world is mean, so I'll be mean too" and whatever premise they're using will produce results that tend to confirm and continue it in the same manner, maybe for a lifetime.

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sbucciarel Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

by the way, here's one of those Incel website posts;
"Incel" Misogynist Wants Government To Pay Women To Date Him

Yeah, I read that one. She's talking about the "thatincelblogger" guy who is truly a psychopath. His writings are so deranged, it's unbelievable. Clearly, there's not a snowball's chance in hell that he will ever get laid.

... but I think I have a new niche. I'll start an incel dating site. Let's say call it ... Incel Meet Incel or something like that. Organize incel cruises and picnics and dances and parties. Can you imagine? They'd probably be the most dismally morose events ever.
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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Interesting article and they might be right. We'll never really know of course, but I found the article a little odd in that AS was only mentioned as an afterthought towards the end, but his inability to make social connections was discussed a lot. Isn't it the same thing? He was diagnosed with AS by his own doctors.

They are no more the same thing, than a cough is the common cold. A cough could be anything from a meaningless tickle, to a massive disease that could be lethal.

They added narcissism and lack of empathy for others and his inability to see his own responsibility for his lack of social connections.... the blaming everyone else for it.

THAT'S what I blame for it!

It had to be a painfully lonely life. Makes me wonder. While reading a couple of the incel blogs, I saw it mentioned that there were self-described male and female incels. It does beg the question ... why don't they get together? Don't know if it would have helped him in particular, but incels in general. Seems like they'd have incel clubs, incel gatherings, incel events where they can all meet and uhhhh ... socialize.

Yeah, it IS ironic, isn't it! If they all had the same problems, and could accept that, one would think it could. But even THAT is a lot of ifs.

Despite the loneliness and all though, the murders show a bigger problem.

Steve

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waterotter

10 years ago

Ken,

"Antisocial personalities like these mass killers need unfortunately a kind of help that they are least likely to seek out, which involves a real human connection with a therapist who can also monitor their behavior closely enough to protect them from becoming dangerous and take necessary precautions when possible."

I don't think Elliot was capable of making a human connection with anyone.

That's just my opinion.

Great to see you back, Ken!

Jody

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Claude Whitacre 10 years ago

Originally Posted by waterotter

Ken,

I don't think Dan Riffle was capable of making a human connection with anyone.

That's just my opinion.

Great to see you back, Ken!

Jody

Fixed that for you. You're welcome.
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- waterotter 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre
  
  Fixed that for you. You're welcome.
  
  Lol!
  
  And I thought You and Riffle were tied at the balls:p
  
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  TimPhelan 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by waterotter
  
  Lol!
  
  And I thought You and Riffle were tied at the balls:p
  
  Yikes! That's a disturbing image to imagine.
  
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  bizgrower 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by TimPhelan
  
  Yikes! That's a disturbing image to imagine.
  
  Darn you. I was trying so hard not to imagine.
  
  Imagine if the press could edit "quotes" like we can. Yikes.
  
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  Claude Whitacre 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by waterotter
  
  Lol!
  
  And I thought You and Riffle were tied at the balls:p
  
  Not until next Thursday. That's when the ceremony takes place. You're all invited.
  
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  waterotter 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre
  
  Not until next Thursday. That's when the ceremony takes place. You're all invited.
  
  Lol, Claude!
  
  I'm guessing Riffle is still in the dark about this?
  
  And some music for the ceremony.....
  
  Spongebob's Got Big Balls - YouTube
  
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  seasoned 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by waterotter
  
  Lol, Claude!
  
  I'm guessing Riffle is still in the dark about this?
  
  And some music for the ceremony.....
  
  Spongebob's Got Big Balls - YouTube
  
  I happen to see the following today:
  
  The Voices on SpongeBob (HD) - YouTube
  
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  bizgrower 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by waterotter
  
  Lol!
  
  And I thought You and Riffle were tied at the balls:p
  
  And I thought you were more of a lady - the polite Canadian thing I guess,
  Which makes your post funnier. Caught me off guard.
  
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  waterotter 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by bizgrower
  
  And I thought you were more of a lady - the polite Canadian thing I guess,
  Which makes your post funnier. Caught me off guard.
  
  Lol, I am!
  
  It's this crazy new red color, I swear. I'm posting stuff I'd never have done before this redesign.
  
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KenThompson

10 years ago

Originally Posted by waterotter

Ken,

I don't think Elliot was capable of making a human connection with anyone.

That's just my opinion.

Great to see you back, Ken!

Jody

Hi Jody,

Never knew your name. And thanks for the welcome. Good to see you, too.

I haven't read extensively about this guy, but I agree he didn't make any real connections with anyone. I think I read that he was in therapy for many years. So I'd like to think one of them picked-up on his inability to make a connection such as with the therapist. Even if that happened, I suppose a therapist can't force a patient to make that kind of connection.

I tend to doubt Rodgers had any thoughts that he had a serious problem and therefore needed to get help. Even though he was highly functional in many respects, some part of his mind had tipped the scales in the wrong direction.

And I recall that he knew his intentions were wrong because he was afraid he would get caught when the police visited him. I think he mentioned in his manifesto that he would have been busted if the police searched his place and found the weapons and other evidence.

I'm sure this won't be the last of this type of crime. Kind of makes the skin crawl.

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waterotter

10 years ago

Originally Posted by KenThompson

Hi Jody,

Never knew your name. And thanks for the welcome. Good to see you, too.

I haven't read extensively about this guy, but I agree he didn't make any real connections with anyone. I think I read that he was in therapy for many years. So I'd like to think one of them picked-up on his inability to make a connection such as with the therapist. Even if that happened, I suppose a therapist can't force a patient to make that kind of connection.

I tend to doubt Rodgers had any thoughts that he had a serious problem and therefore needed to get help. Even though he was highly functional in many respects, some part of his mind had tipped the scales in the wrong direction.

And I recall that he knew his intentions were wrong because he was afraid he would get caught when the police visited him. I think he mentioned in his manifesto that he would have been busted if the police searched his place and found the weapons and other evidence.

I'm sure this won't be the last of this type of crime. Kind of makes the skin crawl.

Thanks, Ken!

Different reports state he had been getting help from the age of 7 or 9. I've read that he hadn't seen a psychiatrist in over two years. A lot can happen during that time frame, especially for somebody like Rodgers. To answer your question, I really don't know if the connection was made.

The scary thing with this guy was his ability to fool people. So, depending on the psychologists/therapists training, who knows, he may have played them like a fiddle. He sure played the cops. I'd dare to say Rodgers lead a double life and the people who cared for him and the therapists etc. only saw one side. Rodgers was never institutionalized, had he been, maybe someone would have seen a clearer picture?

I don't think we know how often he was being seen in the clinical sense. We do know he was given psychotic meds, but refused to take them.

He was very intelligent, to smart for his own good. This event was premeditated, so he definitely knew what he was doing.

I'm grateful he was never given the opportunity to procreate. Sad, but true.

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by waterotter

Thanks, Ken!

Different reports state he had been getting help from the age of 7 or 9. I've read that he hadn't seen a psychiatrist in over two years. A lot can happen during that time frame, especially for somebody like Rodgers. To answer your question, I really don't know if the connection was made.

The scary thing with this guy was his ability to fool people. So, depending on the psychologists/therapists training, who knows, he may have played them like a fiddle. He sure played the cops. I'd dare to say Rodgers lead a double life and the people who cared for him and the therapists etc. only saw one side. Rodgers was never institutionalized, had he been, maybe someone would have seen a clearer picture?

I don't think we know how often he was being seen in the clinical sense. We do know he was given psychotic meds, but refused to take them.

He was very intelligent, to smart for his own good. This event was premeditated, so he definitely knew what he was doing.

I'm grateful he was never given the opportunity to procreate. Sad, but true.

The cops sound like the ones with "Jaycee Lee Dugard" BOTH times a more reliable source asked them to check out a problem. With JLD, they went to a KNOWN sex offender. With THIS guy, he was known to have mental problems. BOTH times, the cops figured they wereto check on the health of the subject. BOTH TIMES, they just LEFT!

BTW for those forgetting JLD.... Kidnapping of Jaycee Lee Dugard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Steve

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thunderbird

10 years ago

I finally did an Internet search for "Incel." I didn't look too hard but what I found, anecdotally, suggests that perhaps they're mainly sexually frustrated and insecure men rather than violently misogynistic as they're overwhelmingly being characterized. Here's how one InCel forum participant characterizes it:

"Just like anyone, incels occur on a continuum of barely f#^$*d up to incredibly f#^$*d up. It's not the incel that's the problem when things go so very wrong - it's the f#^$*d-up-ness. This guy was very unstable and had myriad mental issues, many of which were already well apparent to those around him.

All over the the Internet there are varying degrees of f#^$*d-up-ness as well, and the thoughts that being a bit unstable mentally and emotionally bring are evident.

My thoughts go to the friends and families (particularly the families) of those shot."

Another InCel participant wrote an opinion similar to that of a psychologist mentioned on this thread:
"I suspect he would have carried out a psychopathic act regardless of the source of his anger. People commit premeditated homicides for a variety of reasons, none of them acceptable."

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Kay King

10 years ago

Call me insensitive - but people who have enough time to spend posting about their personal angst day after day on "poor me - can't get a women - can't get a life" forums and blogs.....are screwed up to begin with. Another groups of narcissists focused on "poor me" instead of "admire me".

I hope some of them never have sex - wouldn't want them to pass on those genetic traits.

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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Call me insensitive - but people who have enough time to spend posting about their personal angst day after day on "poor me - can't get a women - can't get a life" forums and blogs.....are screwed up to begin with. Another groups of narcissists focused on "poor me" instead of "admire me".

I hope some of them never have sex - wouldn't want them to pass on those genetic traits.

I wonder sometimes how some people would fare maybe 200 years ago. Living off the land...looking for food. Would these personality disorders even emerge? Would we even have time to be self absorbed? Thinking about how unfair our life is?

Would these people simply not survive?

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

I wonder sometimes how some people would fare maybe 200 years ago. Living off the land...looking for food. Would these personality disorders even emerge? Would we even have time to be self absorbed? Thinking about how unfair our life is?

Would these people simply not survive?

I doubt that they had the time for self absorption. I think they just had sex with their livestock and went about their business with a smile on their face.

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bizgrower

10 years ago

[quote=sbucciarel;9234907]I doubt that they had the time for self absorption. I think they just had sex with their livestock and went about their business with a smile on their face.

[/QUOTE

And pick the ugliest of the livestock.

Originally Posted by Kay King

Call me insensitive - but people who have enough time to spend posting about their personal angst day after day on "poor me - can't get a women - can't get a life" forums and blogs.....are screwed up to begin with. Another groups of narcissists focused on "poor me" instead of "admire me".

I hope some of them never have sex - wouldn't want them to pass on those genetic traits.

Some of them remind me of this:

Mac Davis - It's Hard To Be Humble (1980) -...

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

I wonder sometimes how some people would fare maybe 200 years ago. Living off the land...looking for food. Would these personality disorders even emerge? Would we even have time to be self absorbed? Thinking about how unfair our life is?

Would these people simply not survive?

MAN, what Suzanne said! I heard similar things said about a whole people!

Well, the kid that did these killings would probably NOT feel entitled, and be working just to get FOOD.

Steve

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thunderbird

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Call me insensitive - but people who have enough time to spend posting about their personal angst day after day on "poor me - can't get a women - can't get a life" forums and blogs.....are screwed up to begin with. Another groups of narcissists focused on "poor me" instead of "admire me".

I hope some of them never have sex - wouldn't want them to pass on those genetic traits.

I actually find it to be an interesting modern phenomenon that people can so quickly cluster into communities online, based on a common interest. Some online groups seem harmlesss if odd such as "Bronies" men who like My Little Pony. Other groups are somewhat disturbed such as the men's "InCel" groups in which not getting laid is such a fixation that they form a "tribe" online over it and thus identify themselves, perhaps to the extent that actually having sex with a woman could make them lose their sense of identity. I noticed a female group claiming to have a quarter million members called I Hate Men. They should get together -- that could help reinforce their sense of identity.

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by thunderbird

I actually find it to be an interesting modern phenomenon that people can so quickly cluster into communities online, based on a common interest. Some online groups seem harmlesss if odd such as "Bronies" men who like My Little Pony. Other groups are somewhat disturbed such as the men's "InCel" groups in which not getting laid is such a fixation that they form a "tribe" online over it and thus identify themselves, perhaps to the extent that actually having sex with a woman could make them lose their sense of identity. I noticed a female group claiming to have a quarter million members called I Hate Men. They should get together -- that could help reinforce their sense of identity.

The bronies don't seem disturbed to you?

As for "ihatemen"? I only read the first few paragraphs and scanned the rest.I said earlier that I guessed most men probably hate some thing about some women. Well, "Imwithyou♥♀." seems WORSE than the converse I said exists. She seems to be a woman that hates all men. WOW, she complains about MEN looking at porn BUT.... what about 50 shades of grey? Apparently when it came out on kindle sales SKYROCKETED! Anyway, I don't care whether she has sex 300 times a day, or NEVER has, she sounds JUST like those incels. In fact, she talks about porn while explaining away why she can't keep a guy's attention!

Steve

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thunderbird

10 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

The bronies don't seem disturbed to you?<snip>

Steve

Nah. Disturbed is a strong word. Odd and eccentric maybe, but Bronies seem to harmless.

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by thunderbird

Nah. Disturbed is a strong word. Odd and eccentric maybe, but Bronies seem to harmless.

I think you are splitting hairs. I, and I thinkmost, consider disturbed to be beyond odd and eccentric, and not necessarily dangerous. Not NECESSARILY!

Steve

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thunderbird

10 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

I think you are splitting hairs. I, and I thinkmost, consider disturbed to be beyond odd and eccentric, and not necessarily dangerous. Not NECESSARILY!

Steve

It is all about semantics, I think. If someone is neither harming oneself nor others and is having fun at something that is odd and silly, I don't consider that disturbed. The fun the Bronies engage in could even be healthy for some of them if it means sharing a joy over a cartoon and getting together for fun "My Little Pony" events, however weird it is. When does eccentric fun end and "disturbed" begin? Are Trekkies or Star Wars fans, discussing it online, getting together at fan events dressed up as characters also disturbed? How about Rocky Horror Picture show fans in costumes based on the show? I've never done any of that, and am not even wired to participate in or enjoy anything like that, but good for them I say. That said, I officially don't know what I am talking about.

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by thunderbird

It is all about semantics, I think. If someone is neither harming oneself nor others and is having fun at something that is odd and silly, I don't consider that disturbed. The fun the Bronies engage in could even be healthy for some of them if it means sharing a joy over a cartoon and getting together for fun "My Little Pony" events, however weird it is. When does eccentric fun end and "disturbed" begin? Are Trekkies or Star Wars fans, discussing it online, getting together at fan events dressed up as characters also disturbed? How about Rocky Horror Picture show fans in costumes based on the show? I've never done any of that, and am not even wired to participate in or enjoy anything like that, but good for them I say. That said, I officially don't know what I am talking about.

I guess you have a point there. As I said a few times before, I don't understand LARP AT ALL! I just never got the idea of dressing up as something you certainly know you aren't.

I like star trek, and it has some nice ideas and all, but if I dressed up like any character,it would be like halloween. Just appearance and no substance.

Steve

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by thunderbird

It is all about semantics, I think. If someone is neither harming oneself nor others and is having fun at something that is odd and silly, I don't consider that disturbed. The fun the Bronies engage in could even be healthy for some of them if it means sharing a joy over a cartoon and getting together for fun "My Little Pony" events, however weird it is. When does eccentric fun end and "disturbed" begin? Are Trekkies or Star Wars fans, discussing it online, getting together at fan events dressed up as characters also disturbed? How about Rocky Horror Picture show fans in costumes based on the show? I've never done any of that, and am not even wired to participate in or enjoy anything like that, but good for them I say. That said, I officially don't know what I am talking about.

Yeah ... all of those. Bronies, Rocky Horror, Star Wars fans and probably thousands that I know nothing about. Good, clean fun. Nothing disturbing about people having a passion for something, even if we think it's peculiar.

Getting a community together because you hate groups of people, men, women, etc. that's not even close to those.

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visimedia

10 years ago

unbelievable ..... how did he do that?

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waterotter

10 years ago

These communities are so virulently misogynist that the Southern Poverty Law Center, an organization that tracks hate groups, has been watching their movements for years.

Another interesting take on Rodgers.

Elliot Rodger's California shooting spree: further proof that misogyny kills
Attributing the rampage in Isla Vista to 'a madman' ignores a stark truth about our society

@Suzanne

I wouldn't be starting any online forums in this niche, unless you want to be followed!

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by waterotter

Another interesting take on Rodgers.

Elliot Rodger's California shooting spree: further proof that misogyny kills
Attributing the rampage in Isla Vista to 'a madman' ignores a stark truth about our society

@Suzanne

I wouldn't be starting any online forums in this niche, unless you want to be followed!

I keep forgetting about the idea that he figured he was an alpha male. A gun does NOT do it. ACAR doesn't do it. He didn't even act like a BETA male! He seemed like a baby pretending to be something he isn't. And if you are going to talk about things like alpha males, I think females usually have a level they must accept. If the alpha, and all reasonable contenders were killed, they might be tempted to go ELSEWHERE.

Steve

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dgui123451

10 years ago

Yeah the kid was pretty messed up. He had some mental issues.

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seasoned

10 years ago

Here I am, not even 5 MINUTES into the video, and he gave EXCELLENT advice that would have helped in SO many of the cases, and certainly with this one!

Steve

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magentawave 10 years ago

Yes, Stefan Molyneux nails it with whatever the topic is. I highly recommend you subscribe to his YT channel.

Originally Posted by seasoned

Here I am, not even 5 MINUTES into the video, and he gave EXCELLENT advice that would have helped in SO many of the cases, and certainly with this one!

Steve
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TLTheLiberator

10 years ago

I found this interesting...

NRA’s constitutional fraud: The truth behind the “right to bear arms” - Salon.com

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seasoned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

I found this interesting...

NRA’s constitutional fraud: The truth behind the “right to bear arms” - Salon.com

You WOULD! They take it out of context, get a lobotomy, and decide to twist it to THEIR agenda, and claim THAT is fact. For you to be right, would defy any logic ANYWAY! Do soldiers have a right to HAVE guns? ******OF COURSE******!!!!!!!!! Name one army ANYWHERE throughout ALL OF HISTORY that did not have access to the base weapon of the day! OH, it may have been a rock, a spear, a sword, a musket, or a machine gun, but they HAVE! And the CONSTITUTION talks about an army! MORE than that, it states that there may be state armies, and implies others, and says that guns may be bought for *****THEM*****! So WHY have an amendment? When do you make an amendment that doesn't even CLARIFY an issue?

So it is clear that there was PRIVATE possession of guns allowed and even PAID FOR. These people came from a place that wanted to get rid of their guns, and they were able to fight off the attack, and start this country ONLY because they had weapons. So that context must be what they meant. It fits with the other amendments.

And ALSO, this country is NOT that old! HECK, berlin is over 1000 years old, and THEY can show you history throughout time. You REALLY think that one day someone decided that the 2nd amendment meant that they could own guns? If citizens didn't own guns in the 18th and 19th centuries, this country would be TINY! IMAGINE! NEVER mind that the settlers couldn't fight off the british. What of the french, spanish, indians, and animals? We couldn't even have SHIPS going any appreciable distance! BTW the US was started in the 18th century.

We are NOT talking ancient egypt here!

Steve
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seasoned

10 years ago

Another thing! there is an expression of "when seconds count, the police are minutes away". WHAT do you suppose the wild west was like when the police were HOURS away? GEE, you would have to hop on your horse, ride to the police, and discuss the problem. They had NO 911!!!! They had NO phones! Did the police station even have a telegraph? And I DOUBT the police were always as close as some westerns imply, but they WERE small, and seriously, 911 STILL isn't fast enough a lot of the time. Besides, suppose you were in a busy bar or something and atone end and were attacked, etc...

Steve

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magentawave

10 years ago

We don't have Constitutional rights. We have Natural Rights that we were born with and those rights are that you are free to do whatever you choose as long as you don't initiate violence against another being or their property. My point is that all these arguments about "Constitution rights" are silly because they presume that this institution with a "legal" monopoly on the initiation of violence known as the state (i.e. "the government") grants us our rights, which also assumes that our rights can be taken away by the arbitrary whims of sociopathic politicians.

The bottom line is that if Elliot Rodger tried to carry out the mayhem he did in a free and stateless society then he would have been stopped after or possibly before he killed his first victim by a human that was well armed because they would have known that it was his/her responsibility to protect themselves instead of waiting around for people in costumes and shiny badges to magically appear to protect them.

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by magentawave

We don't have Constitutional rights. We have Natural Right that we were born with and those rights are that you are free to do whatever you choose as long as you don't initiate violence against another being or their property. My point is that all these arguments about "Constitution rights" are silly because they presume that this institution with a "legal" monopoly on the initiation of violence known as the state (i.e. "the government") grants us our rights, which also assumes that our rights can be taken away by the arbitrary whims of sociopathic politicians.

THAT is the reasoning that has hurt the US so much. The US is SUPPOSED to be basically a concept. A country built around a concept. And THAT concept is embodied by the CONSTITUTION. THAT is supposed to dictate the limits of rights of the people(*******ALL PEOPLE*******) in the country. It ALSO dictates how the government is to run. The governments job is supposed to be run by agents that are supposed to follow the SPIRIT of the CONSTITUTION! They are to take an OATH to that effect to "protect the CONSTITUTION against ALL enemies foreign AND DOMESTIC!". BTW the declaration of independence ACKNOWLEDGES that rights are not granted, but a given. The constitution's purpose is to CODIFY that and make it clear,

So the government is NOT the country, and DOESN'T hand people rights! Politicians are SUPPOSED to be subject to the SAME rules! Of course, some politicians figured they were royalty and acted with all the bad stereotypes! Things then began to fall apart.

The bottom line is that if Elliot Rodger tried to carry out the mayhem he did in a free and stateless society then he would have been stopped after or possibly before he killed his first victim by a human that was well armed because they would have known that it was his/her responsibility to protect themselves instead of waiting around for people in costumes and shiny badges to magically appear to protect them.

YEP! And he shot in an area that was gun free! I spoke of a stereotype earlier that it seemed all matched. Eventually, since some spoke about them, I admitted two OTHER common ones. Where does Elliot fit? He matches ALL THREE!!!!!!!!!

I wish I could tell you what I realized only yesterday, about that third match, alas.... It IS kind of interesting, ironic and, in a way, FUNNY.

Steve

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magentawave

10 years ago

Yeah, yeah, constitutions or whatever sound good, and I used to believe in that too along with Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, but laws don't stop criminals. Proof? Hold a piece of paper up to the guy that is mugging you at gunpoint with the law they are violating printed on it and see how well that piece of paper stops their bullet.

Whats my point?

Psychopaths/sociopaths and those with Narcissistic Personality Disorder are humans with no conscience or empathy for others who also have an insatiable desire to control others.

And what is the best place people with the NEED to control others can get jobs that enable them to "legally" control millions? Governments, because the only institution on earth that enables it members to have more rights than the rest of us are governments. And what are those magical extra "rights" they have? The right to continually lie to everyone, steal their wealth, and routinely commit mass murder.

So all those reasons you listed for what government is supposed to do and what politicians are supposed to do go out the window because these are very sick individuals who are totally incapable of caring about you or anyone but themselves.

And the only cure is to educate yourself about psychopathy/sociopathy and NPD so you can spot them and keep them the hell out of your life and then tell others so they can do the same.

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by magentawave

Yeah, yeah, constitutions or whatever sound good, and I used to believe in that too along with Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, but laws don't stop criminals. Proof? Hold a piece of paper up to the guy that is mugging you at gunpoint with the law they are violating printed on it and see how well that piece of paper stops their bullet.

Whats my point?

Psychopaths/sociopaths and those with Narcissistic Personality Disorder are humans with no conscience or empathy for others who also have an insatiable desire to control others.

And what is the best place people with the NEED to control others can get jobs that enable them to "legally" control millions? Governments, because the only institution on earth that enables it members to have more rights than the rest of us are governments. And what are those magical extra "rights" they have? The right to continually lie to everyone, steal their wealth, and routinely commit mass murder.

So all those reasons you listed for what government is supposed to do and what politicians are supposed to do go out the window because these are very sick individuals who are totally incapable of caring about you or anyone but themselves.

And the only cure is to educate yourself about psychopathy/sociopathy and NPD so you can spot them and keep them the hell out of your life and then tell others so they can do the same.

You're right. I was simply talking about the 2nd amendment,and how many feel the government and those running it are the same. That created a lot of usurpers to a throne that doesn't exist. ALAS, they just set one up like a homeless squatter.

But yeah, people have to stop making excuses for kids, and the cognitively different. If a seemingly insane person that is 11 commits a murder, they should be tried as an adult, and treated like one. OK, try to treat them, and maybe isolate within the developmental group. So maybe 8-10, 11-14,15+

As for keeping some out of my life? I HAVE done that. I live a rather quiet, and peaceful, life.

Steve

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