Neda, 26 year old woman, killed today in Iran.

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I've been following what's going on in Iran the last couple of weeks, before the election and after. ( I hope this isn't considered "politics" here on the Warrior forum, because it's more than that. ) I knew that the Iran people were good people and the talk of bombing Iran or going to war with them always made no sense to me. The people of Iran aren't our enemy.

Seeing what is happening in Iran now I feel as though I'm falling in love with these people and their fight. These freedom fighters are doing it the right way, for the right reasons and don't want violence

This video below is very graphic and disturbing. It shows Neda, a 26 year old Iranian woman who was shot and killed today. Perhaps it is innapropriate to post here, but this death, among others, will be the downfall of this dictatorship IMO.

RIP Neda.

  • Profile picture of the author myob
    It is heart-wrenching to watch these people struggle for the freedoms many of us take for granted and treat so lightly.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Our Government is the only one taking our freedoms lightly - and away as often as they can manage. We might be in the same boat very soon if we can't stop them from ripping our constitution to pieces.
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    Sal
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  • Profile picture of the author Patrician
    RIP Neda.

    Rest in Pieces, Dolt Dictator and Religious Fascists.

    I agree there is no reason we should be enemies with the Iranian PEOPLE - It is quite heartening to watch them protest - very Western...
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  • Profile picture of the author opportunity_kno
    ooo ouchies.... but they have had these sorts of conflicts for more than 30 years over political vs religious standings... but I hope that her family is doing ok
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  • Profile picture of the author rtrotter
    It produces such mixed feeling. Grief for her but hope that freedom is found in Iran. When you think about how bad your life would have to be for you a give it up for a cause, you realize the power of what is happening. I just wish our government did.

    Rodney
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    IF YOU USE TWITTER - HELP THEM!

    IF YOU USE TWITTER.. Please change your location to Tehran, Iran and change your timezone to GMT+3.30. This makes it much harder for Iranian Security forces to be able to track Iranians illegally reporting the authoritarian crack down in Iran, because it creates much more for them to sift through. It's for a good cause! Spread the word!

    CHANGE YOUR PROFILE THEN RETWEET THIS:
    RT @Simon__Templer solis93: : IF YOU USE TWITTER.. Please change your location to Tehran, Iran and change your ti..http: //bit.ly/16eVR5

    Make sure you take the spaces out of the URL after http:
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    Sal
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    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
      Thanks for reminding me Sal. I heard that earlier today but hadn't changed mine yet. Just did now.

      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      IF YOU USE TWITTER - HELP THEM!

      IF YOU USE TWITTER.. Please change your location to Tehran, Iran and change your timezone to GMT+3.30. This makes it much harder for Iranian Security forces to be able to track Iranians illegally reporting the authoritarian crack down in Iran, because it creates much more for them to sift through. It's for a good cause! Spread the word!

      CHANGE YOUR PROFILE THEN RETWEET THIS:
      RT @Simon__Templer solis93: : IF YOU USE TWITTER.. Please change your location to Tehran, Iran and change your ti.. solis93: If you use Twitter
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    • Profile picture of the author jessewrites
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      IF YOU USE TWITTER - HELP THEM!

      IF YOU USE TWITTER.. Please change your location to Tehran, Iran and change your timezone to GMT+3.30. This makes it much harder for Iranian Security forces to be able to track Iranians illegally reporting the authoritarian crack down in Iran, because it creates much more for them to sift through. It's for a good cause! Spread the word!

      CHANGE YOUR PROFILE THEN RETWEET THIS:
      RT @Simon__Templer solis93: : IF YOU USE TWITTER.. Please change your location to Tehran, Iran and change your ti..http: //bit.ly/16eVR5

      Make sure you take the spaces out of the URL after http:
      My prayers are with the people of Iran. Thanks to Twitter, you get a glimpse into something like this that we've never gotten before. I avoid the youtube videos because I can't take it. However, announcing on Twitter that you're changing your time zone and location kind of defeats the purpose. Announce that anywhere you want except Twitter. Good idea. Bad execution to announce it.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Glad to do it Tim - Might help save some of those people.

    I didn't see what the link did in here - where it says solis93: If you use twitter
    put in: http: //bit.ly/16eVR5 without the spaces after http: - lol, I had to put the spaces in for it to show the URL.
    Edited above, too.

    Just spread the word people - not only will it help save the resistance, it will also send a message to Iran that the rest of the world isn't too kewl with what they are doing.
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    Sal
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    I've been on twitter helping the Iranians by RT important news.

    Right now the death toll is over 300 - protesters are being arrested at hospitals and hospitals are calling for blood - severe shortages.

    Reports that the Bajish (right word?) capitol has been blown up.
    Also reports that lye is being dumped on protestors.
    Assyrian news is reporting that the "elected" Pres was involved with assassinations in Austria and possibly pulled the trigger himself on one of them.

    That place is imploding fast.

    They could use some help retweeting warnings to the protestors. #iranelections
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    Sal
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  • Profile picture of the author Anas Asarani
    errgh...I do not have guts to watch the video...pity this poor little girl. The gov of iran must take serious action to stop all this
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Right now there is no way to tell - last I heard was 30. The 300 might have been reported by agents - they have had gov agents getting on there and trying to scare the people into silence. It's not working. They now have a list of agents on there for people to block. RT are done without using names because the gov is tracking the tweeters in Iran.

    Last report I saw - unconfirmed - is that The gov is losing control of the army. The Basij has been getting very violent on them - burning houses. Set off a bomb at some tomb then blamed it on the people, but the people don't have bombs. They are however telling each other how to make weapons to defend themselves.

    All the news websites there have been hacked so the people are told not to trust anything coming from the news. There's now a total block on email, Yahoo etc.

    Oh yeah - a lot of stuff being set on fire, too.
    People are setting up their machines to be proxies for the protesters to tweet so they can't be tracked.

    It sounds more like a civil war at this point rather than just protesting. The Iranians are VERY upset with Obama. The gov has told UK and US to stay out of it, but the Iranians say it's no longer about elections - it's about tyranny, and they are sick of it.

    The Basij is at hospitals carting off protestors and they aren't being treated - not because they don't want to, just the militia won't allow them to. People are coming in beaten to a pulp by the hundreds and there are at least 30 dead in one hospital as reported from a doctor there. The protests are spreading.

    The bus drivers have gone on strike and there is word that the oil workers are joining the resistance.

    People are screaming Neda's name all over the world......although she is not the only one who has fallen.
    The previous pres has called for a release of protestors. And foreign embassies are now open to help those injured. Austrias was the last one I saw announced open.

    Reports are now that protests are starting again and Basij are on the streets. I imagine more will die today if the Army doesn't side with the people.

    There are many protests in places around the globe to support Iranians that will be taking place today.

    Reports are just starting to leak in about oil shortages so it is thought that the oil workers in fact have joined in strike.
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    Sal
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      I have a lot of sympathy for the Iranian protestors - but the media hysteria being created in this country about what's going on seems over the top. Of course I'm concerned as I have many Iranian friends - but I want facts, not rumor or misleading retweets. The best FACTS are the photos being transmitted. I can believe what I see, not what I hear.

      No matter what side wins these protests, we will have to work with that side. The last thing we need as a country is to be seen trying to exert control once again in the internal dispute of another nation. Win or lose, this protest makes it clear that change is coming in Iran but we don't know how long that change will take.

      Seeing a news organization spend hours reporting "news" from Twitter made me think how ridiculous we've become about "news". If we don't know the minute by minute blow-by-blow "news from Twitter and Facebook" - does it change anything?

      Comments on Twitter cannot be verified - nor can the person posting them. Even if the person is "real", he's submitting a short comment based on his own small view - or, more often perhaps, on what he's "heard" is happening elsewhere. Some of the info on Twitter is news, some is conjecture, some is rumor, some is propaganda.

      The beauty of Twitter and other apps is that it's clear the days of hiding info behind a veil of silence are over. The danger is that these same apps can be used to spread misinformation very easily - and anyone who uses them knows that. A good example are estimates of the death toll range from 20 to 300. Clearly, much of the info isn't accurate - and with all the "info" about it, we knew very little factually about that number.

      kay
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      • Profile picture of the author derekwong28
        This is really sad but the situation is really not as clear cut as the media implies i.e. between democracy and dictatorship, freedom and repression.

        These students are probably being used as proxies in a power struggle between factions loyal to Khamenei and Rafsanjani. The power structure in Iran is extremely complicated with the president only holding very limited power. The supreme leader Khamenei is supposed to hold almost dictatorial powers in theory but in practice he is under a lot of constraints as well.

        Their elections cannot be in any way compared to those in the West. All their candidates were vigorously vetted by the Guardian council and Moussavi himself have served as prime minister under Khamenei. It is as if in the US that you are only able to choose between Bush and Cheney.

        I agree with Obama that is uncertain whether Moussavi would be much different than Ahmadinejad. Moroever, virtually all "independent" polls conducted by orgainizations outisde the country and also intelliegence reports suggested that Ahmadinejad was well ahead in the few weeks before the election.

        Their election really turned ugly when Ahmadinejad accused Rafsanjani as corrupt when he was president. This has long been suspected by many Iranian as Rafsanjani and his family had built up a huge business empire. Sensing that he and his family may be threatened, Rafsanjani is suspected of playing a key role in these unrests.

        In this situation, the best course of action that the West can take is not to seen openly to take sides and get sucked into it. The worse outcome would be if it degenerates into a civil war.

        Derek
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          I agree with Obama that is uncertain whether Moussavi would be much different than Ahmadinejad. Moroever, virtually all "independent" polls conducted by orgainizations outisde the country and also intelliegence reports suggested that Ahmadinejad was well ahead in the few weeks before the election.
          Excellent observations, Derek. The "fact" being used by some politicians calling on the US to take sides is that Ahmadinejad won in the home "state" (equivalent of) of Moussavi - yet polls had long shown this was likely to be the result of votes in that locale.

          Clearly, there are many in Iran who want change - but change may not be "freedom" as we interpret it here. We are only observers of this protest movement - but it's heartening to me to see a country where people care enough to protest!

          kay
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          • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
            Interesting article I read a few days ago about Mousavi. The article says Mousavi's wife Zahra Rahnavard is the real firebrand in the family. He reluctantly ran for president after turning down the chance in 1997.

            "Mousavi promised economic reform, freedom of expression and a campaign against economic corruption.

            He also pledged to review laws that discriminate against women, remove the ban on privately owned television stations and curb the power of the supreme leader by taking control of security forces."

            Perhaps part of this started as a power struggle, but the reason the people got so inspired is because they believe real change can happen. To them, they aren't protesting to help Rafsanjani get back at the supreme leader.

            Mousavi emerges as political rock star - Iran- msnbc.com
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
    and people wonder why i think religion should be banned
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    • Profile picture of the author Wakunahum
      Originally Posted by Michael Motley View Post

      and people wonder why i think religion should be banned
      Yeah I do wonder why anyone would want to ban religion or any other ideology.

      These people in Iran want the freedom to think and act how they wish without someone putting in some sort of "ban" on their lifestyle choices. So yes, I question your motives as I am an advocate for freedom.

      How long are we going to continue to hurt people (with jail time or in this case with death) because we don't agree with the way they see the world (whether it's religion or none, politics, life, sexuality, etc.)????

      If we want bans on whatever, it also comes with the ability to punish those who don't agree which is just silly in 2009 in my opinion.
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
        sorry, i just now had time to read this, i was too busy watching the news and seeing how many dozens of people died today because of one religion or another...what were you saying again?

        Originally Posted by Wakunahum View Post

        Yeah I do wonder why anyone would want to ban religion or any other ideology.

        These people in Iran want the freedom to think and act how they wish without someone putting in some sort of "ban" on their lifestyle choices. So yes, I question your motives as I am an advocate for freedom.

        How long are we going to continue to hurt people (with jail time or in this case with death) because we don't agree with the way they see the world (whether it's religion or none, politics, life, sexuality, etc.)????

        If we want bans on whatever, it also comes with the ability to punish those who don't agree which is just silly in 2009 in my opinion.
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        • Profile picture of the author Wakunahum
          Originally Posted by Michael Motley View Post

          sorry, i just now had time to read this, i was too busy watching the news and seeing how many dozens of people died today because of one religion or another...what were you saying again?
          The issue here is one of force and not ideology.

          If one causes harm by brutally murdering someone, it's wrong regardless of the reasons behind it whether it's because they didn't like the person, racially motivated, religion, etc.

          I don't care if my neighbor believes in pink bunnies that float around their head and it's their god. As long as they don't use force against me, I think they should be able to believe whatever they want. My peaceful neighbor can believe what they want, and I think they have more say over what they believe that YOU do or I do or ANYONE else does.

          How many days are you willing to put someone in jail if they believe in a religion after it's banned? How far are you willing to go to hurt them? $1000 fine? 1 month in jail? 1 year? Life in a work camp? Death?
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          • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
            Unfortunately, not all people that follow the various religions can be quiet and non violent.

            The entire middle east is eat up with one crazy idiot or another that truly believes their actions will win them favor with god...in islam

            just a couple weeks ago, we had a christian man walk into a house of god and put a bullet in another human being.....in the name of a christian god.

            take god out of the equation and then there's no reason for the killing.

            Originally Posted by Wakunahum View Post

            The issue here is one of force and not ideology.

            If one causes harm by brutally murdering someone, it's wrong regardless of the reasons behind it whether it's because they didn't like the person, racially motivated, religion, etc.

            I don't care if my neighbor believes in pink bunnies that float around their head and it's their god. As long as they don't use force against me, I think they should be able to believe whatever they want. My peaceful neighbor can believe what they want, and I think they have more say over what they believe that YOU do or I do or ANYONE else does.

            How many days are you willing to put someone in jail if they believe in a religion after it's banned? How far are you willing to go to hurt them? $1000 fine? 1 month in jail? 1 year? Life in a work camp? Death?
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            • Profile picture of the author dave830
              Originally Posted by Michael Motley View Post


              take god out of the equation and then there's no reason for the killing.
              Michael- quite a naive statement.

              Plenty of wars have been fought because of ethnicity, power, oil, hatred, land, class, drugs, and I'm guessing lots of even stupider reasons.

              The only way to stop the wars is to take people out of the equation.

              We've got a knack for inventing ways to divide ourselves.
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              • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
                Yes but nothing has caused more death in the history of man than religion. Even the bible itself is farily violent.
                Originally Posted by dave830 View Post

                Michael- quite a naive statement.

                Plenty of wars have been fought because of ethnicity, power, oil, hatred, land, class, drugs, and I'm guessing lots of even stupider reasons.

                The only way to stop the wars is to take people out of the equation.

                We've got a knack for inventing ways to divide ourselves.
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                • Profile picture of the author dave830
                  Originally Posted by Michael Motley View Post

                  Yes but nothing has caused more death in the history of man than religion.
                  Nothing?

                  Come on, Michael.

                  The 20th century was the bloodiest in history (160+ million died in wars) and the Pol Pot/Stalin combo were responsible for 100 million of them. The only time religion came up with these guys was in who to exterminate.

                  Look, no need to have long debate here on the WF about this.. but if the heroics of the Iranian people are showing us anything, it's that freedom (how you live, think, speak, vote, and yes, worship) is worth standing up for.

                  Let's not make sweeping statements to undercut that.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
                    Its not a sweeping statement at all.

                    Let me be forthright and tell you that I've had this very discussion many times before and as such have already done the research to support my point of view, so I pretty much know how this is going to end. My point is practically proven before the end of the bible itself.

                    But you're right, this isnt the place for it.

                    dammit, its hard to not talk about religion or politics in an 'off topic' forum.

                    Originally Posted by dave830 View Post

                    Nothing?

                    Come on, Michael.

                    The 20th century was the bloodiest in history (160+ million died in wars) and the Pol Pot/Stalin combo were responsible for 100 million of them. The only time religion came up with these guys was in who to exterminate.

                    Look, no need to have long debate here on the WF about this.. but if the heroics of the Iranian people are showing us anything, it's that freedom (how you live, think, speak, vote, and yes, worship) is worth standing up for.

                    Let's not make sweeping statements to undercut that.
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                    • Profile picture of the author dave830
                      Originally Posted by Michael Motley View Post

                      But you're right, this isnt the place for it.
                      But really, we're both missing the point... what's the deal with this mugginess here in Tampa? Only been here a few years, but I think the humidity could kill more than religion and Stalin put together...
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                      • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
                        Originally Posted by dave830 View Post

                        But really, we're both missing the point... what's the deal with this mugginess here in Tampa? Only been here a few years, but I think the humidity could kill more than religion and Stalin put together...
                        This is true. The humidity here is ridiculous this time of year. This is the only place i've ever been where its so freaking hot my eyeballs actually break out in a sweat
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                      • Profile picture of the author myob
                        Originally Posted by dave830 View Post

                        But really, we're both missing the point... what's the deal with this mugginess here in Tampa? Only been here a few years, but I think the humidity could kill more than religion and Stalin put together...
                        LOL! My Iranian-American rabbi friend has open connections to the Spirit in the Sky. May the dew of His holiness sprinkle upon you in grace and truth. (Ezekiel 36:25)
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                        • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                          What is going on in Iran is about a lot of things, but religion isn't one of them. Afterall, both sides, the ruling government and the reformists belong to the same religion.

                          One of the things this is about is equal rights: for women. The issue of equal rights for women is one of the least covered aspects of this conflict and many others in the middle east. 60% of the students at Tehran University are women. Under Ahmadinejad, things have gotten worse for women the last 4 years.

                          Here's an interesting article about women marching for their rights in Iran:

                          Women in Iran march against discrimination - CNN.com
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                          • Profile picture of the author Killer Joe
                            Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                            What is going on in Iran is about a lot of things, but religion isn't one of them.
                            Tim,

                            With all due respect, you can't be serious.

                            Those in power view any changes as threats to their core beliefs.

                            What core beliefs permeate Iran?

                            Think for a moment about Copernicus. Now think how the Catholic Church viewed these new ideas about our solar system.

                            Were his findings on the solar system about religion?

                            Of course not. Were they, the Catholic Church, threatened by his findings?

                            They were shaken to the core...

                            KJ
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                            • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                              It has nothing to do with religion. Listen to the protestors. Democracy and Islam aren't mutually exclusive. This is about power, equal rights, justice and freedom.

                              Those in power are afraid of losing power.

                              Tim



                              Originally Posted by Killer Joe View Post

                              Tim,

                              With all due respect, you can't be serious.

                              Those in power view any changes as threats to their core beliefs.

                              What core beliefs permeate Iran?

                              Think for a moment about Copernicus. Now think how the Catholic Church viewed these new ideas about our solar system.

                              Were his findings on the solar system about religion?

                              Of course not. Were they, the Catholic Church, threatened by his findings?

                              They were shaken to the core...

                              KJ
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                              • Profile picture of the author Killer Joe
                                Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                                It has nothing to do with religion. Listen to the protestors. Democracy and Islam aren't mutually exclusive. This is about power, equal rights, justice and freedom.

                                Those in power are afraid of losing power.

                                Tim
                                You made my point exactly. Thank you.

                                Now, who are those people in power?

                                Think about it this time, don't just skim the surface.

                                KJ
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                                • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                                  Dictators are in power. You think about that one for a while. That's the core.

                                  Originally Posted by Killer Joe View Post

                                  You made my point exactly. Thank you.

                                  Now, who are those people in power?

                                  Think about it this time, don't just skim the surface.

                                  KJ
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Killer Joe
                                    Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                                    Dictators are in power. You think about that one for a while. That's the core.
                                    OK, and who are those dictators?

                                    Are they Clerics?

                                    How can you continue to dismiss this fact.

                                    You're a bright guy, you know you're aware of this fact.

                                    I'm betting you know this, as well. Is one of us in denial?

                                    KJ
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                                    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                                      Yes, I know this Joe. Of course. That doesn't make this about religion.

                                      This all started because the people wanted certain specific changes. Mousavi promised economic reform, freedom of expression and a campaign against economic corruption. He also pledged to review laws that discriminate against women, remove the ban on privately owned television stations and curb the power of the supreme leader by taking control of security forces. These are political changes.

                                      People thought they could have real elections but the government has been exposed as dictators. Because it is an "Islamic Republic" doesn't make this about religion. It's ridiculous to think so IMO. Try to find just one protestor who says it's about religion.

                                      Now, it may be your opinion that the reason Iran is having these problems is because it is an Islamic Republic, but that is your opinion and from everything I have heard and read isn't the opinion of the protestors.


                                      Originally Posted by Killer Joe View Post

                                      OK, and who are those dictators?

                                      Are they Clerics?

                                      How can you continue to dismiss this fact.

                                      You're a bright guy, you know you're aware of this fact.

                                      I'm betting you know this, as well. Is one of us in denial?

                                      KJ
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                                • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
                                  Originally Posted by Killer Joe View Post

                                  You made my point exactly. Thank you.

                                  Now, who are those people in power?

                                  Think about it this time, don't just skim the surface.

                                  KJ
                                  Easy.

                                  They are men.

                                  The world would be a zillion times better if women ruled.
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                              • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
                                Those in power are religious leadres
                                they dont have equal rights because islam says they dont
                                their justice system is based on islam law
                                their 'freedom' is dictated by their religion.

                                This is ALL about religion Tim. The 'president' in that country isnt the true power, its the religious leaders that drive the country.


                                Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                                It has nothing to do with religion. Listen to the protestors. Democracy and Islam aren't mutually exclusive. This is about power, equal rights, justice and freedom.

                                Those in power are afraid of losing power.

                                Tim
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                                • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                                  So, Islam says people don't have equal rights?

                                  Look, I think their constitution has some serious flaws. But, so did ours. Our own constitution is a living document and can be changed. Can theirs? I don't know, but it seems Mousavi had some reform ideas that would have made big changes. I listed a few above. One of them was taking control of the security forces away from the Supreme Leader. Another was addressing the descrimination of women. He wanted to allow non state owned tv stations. If the election had been legit and he was allowed to be President, then Iran may have changed drastically. More than likely there would have been future changes that further changed the structure of their government.

                                  Like I said before, Islam and Democracy aren't mutually exclusive. Either are Islam and equal rights.

                                  Personally, I like the idea of separation of church and state, but if Mousavi did actually win the election, was allowed to become President and make changes, their wouldn't be these protests now. It's about the people in power not wanting to lose that power. That's why I said it wasn't about religion.

                                  Now, will what is happening eventually destroy the whole political system in Iran? Perhaps, but it could have been reformed gradually, which probably is the preferable and more natural way. Unfortunately those in power are trying to make sure they don't lose any power.



                                  Originally Posted by Michael Motley View Post

                                  they dont have equal rights because islam says they dont.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
                                    Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                                    So, Islam says people don't have equal rights?
                                    no, islam says women dont have equal rights.

                                    Look, I think their constitution has some serious flaws. But, so did ours. Our own constitution is a living document and can be changed. Can theirs? I don't know, but it seems Mousavi had some reform ideas that would have made big changes. I listed a few above. One of them was taking control of the security forces away from the Supreme Leader. Another was addressing the descrimination of women. He wanted to allow non state owned tv stations. If the election had been legit and he was allowed to be President, then Iran may have changed drastically. More than likely there would have been future changes that further changed the structure of their government.

                                    Like I said before, Islam and Democracy aren't mutually exclusive. Either are Islam and equal rights.
                                    They arent mutually exclusive if you're a muslim male.
                                    Personally, I like the idea of separation of church and state, but if Mousavi did actually win the election, was allowed to become President and make changes, their wouldn't be these protests now. It's about the people in power not wanting to lose that power. That's why I said it wasn't about religion.
                                    The people in power are religious leaders.
                                    Now, will what is happening eventually destroy the whole political system in Iran? Perhaps, but it could have been reformed gradually, which probably is the preferable and more natural way. Unfortunately those in power are trying to make sure they don't lose any power.
                                    I would imagine that their 'constitution' is probably similar to the crap we just gave soldier's lives for in iraq. The one in iraq basically says that at the end of the day, Islam law has the last word.
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                                    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                                      Originally Posted by Michael Motley View Post

                                      no, islam says women dont have equal rights.
                                      That's open to interpretation really. It isn't that simple. Here's a site where someone discusses this subject and compares how all religions deal with women's rights:

                                      http://women.rationalreality.com/

                                      Surprisingly egalitarian in its approach, the Koran doesn't agree with the Bible's claim of men being owners of women, neither does it agree with women being created for or from men [as the Bible claims], nor does it say that women cannot teach nor have authority over men. The Koran also dispels the common myth among other religions in general that; a woman is evil by nature and has been created to deceive mankind. The purpose, says that Koran, of mates is that tranquillity and peace emerges through the natural instinct of love and kindness among mates.


                                      People who analyze the Koran however sometimes feel different about many of its verses, which to them suggest that the Koran is in some way putting down women. These verses are a handful
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                                      • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
                                        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                                        That's open to interpretation really. It isn't that simple. Here's a site where someone discusses this subject and compares how all religions deal with women's rights:

                                        http://women.rationalreality.com/
                                        Really? Maybe you should ask the women who get stoned when THEY get raped because they were outside their house without their husband or brother.

                                        Or how about asking some of the women who are covered head to toe in a bag in the fricken desert heat what they think of their equality

                                        Islam law still allows the husband to beat his wife. BY LAW.

                                        and you think that the females equality is up to specific interpretation?
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                                        • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                                          Yeh, that's what the Iranian women want to change. Yes, it is about interpretation. Look at how Hitler interpreted the bible. Look how Christians justified having slaves and also discrimated against women.

                                          Islam law doesn't allow a husband to beat his wife. It's laws made by muslims. Big difference.

                                          You're really jumping to conclusions and making assumptions.

                                          Originally Posted by Michael Motley View Post

                                          Really? Maybe you should ask the women who get stoned when THEY get raped because they were outside their house without their husband or brother.

                                          Or how about asking some of the women who are covered head to toe in a bag in the fricken desert heat what they think of their equality

                                          Islam law still allows the husband to beat his wife. BY LAW.

                                          and you think that the females equality is up to specific interpretation?
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                                          • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
                                            Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                                            Yeh, that's what the Iranian women want to change. Yes, it is about interpretation. Look at how Hitler interpreted the bible. Look how Christians justified having slaves and also discrimated against women.
                                            Islam law doesn't allow a husband to beat his wife. It's laws made by muslims. Big difference.

                                            You're really jumping to conclusions and making assumptions.[/quote]

                                            Its not our business to tell them how to run their country OR treat their women. Just like its not their business to tell us how to run OUR country.

                                            This is why so many countries hate us right now, its not our business. Let them handle their own messes
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                                            • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                                              Originally Posted by Michael Motley View Post

                                              Islam law doesn't allow a husband to beat his wife. It's laws made by muslims. Big difference.

                                              You're really jumping to conclusions and making assumptions.
                                              Its not our business to tell them how to run their country OR treat their women. Just like its not their business to tell us how to run OUR country.

                                              This is why so many countries hate us right now, its not our business. Let them handle their own messes[/quote]
                                              Which is what we are doing.
                                              We are just showing them that we support their efforts.
                                              I know Obama has been getting heat for not doing anything, yet I believe that is exactly what he should be doing, nothing.
                                              This isn't our fight and if we where to step in in any way it would just bring more hate towards our country.
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                    • Profile picture of the author David Maschke
                      Originally Posted by Michael Motley View Post

                      Its not a sweeping statement at all.

                      But you're right, this isnt the place for it.

                      dammit, its hard to not talk about religion or politics in an 'off topic' forum.
                      Ya, you're right. Religion, politics and economics drives almost all of our decisions and actions, with a bit of psychology and sociology thrown in too.

                      But this Iran thing, people are getting the feeling it could be a real turning point in that region. As I said before, if the fanatics stay in charge, they are going to be really pissed off after this is all over and start acting unreasonably on an international level, not just on a national level.

                      One thing is for sure, no one is going to let them become a nuclear power...

                      DEBKAfile - In spreading disorder, Iran's nuclear assets are matter of concern

                      The problem in this case, there is no clearly defined endgame. So if there is a revolution, there will exist a power vacuum, and the nation may end up being more dangerous than it is now depending on who can get support of their admirals and generals.

                      Dave
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            • Profile picture of the author Wakunahum
              Originally Posted by Michael Motley View Post

              Unfortunately, not all people that follow the various religions can be quiet and non violent.

              The entire middle east is eat up with one crazy idiot or another that truly believes their actions will win them favor with god...in islam

              just a couple weeks ago, we had a christian man walk into a house of god and put a bullet in another human being.....in the name of a christian god.

              take god out of the equation and then there's no reason for the killing.
              These deaths are sick.

              An individual who literally is going to kill for god is going to kill for god regardless whether religion is legal or not. They are killing THEREFORE they don't care about what law is or isn't. A ban on religion will not stop this violent killing no matter how much we both hate these deaths.

              And if religion is banned, it's not like these people will no longer believe in god. Killings for god will continue. A ban means you will put a punishment on the non-violent as well if they admit to believing in one.

              My point is that I can be tolerant and live in peace with my non-violent religious neighbors. You on the other hand want to hurt these innocent people with the force of law.

              What's wrong with tolerance and accepting that other's can think for themselves even if you don't agree with their conclusions?

              To me it's horrible to think that a peaceful Muslim, Jew, Christian, (or any person of any belief in anything)etc. will be hurt by a government because of something they believe.

              I think what you are trying to argue is a world where the concept of god never existed.
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              • Profile picture of the author jlaw6402
                Thanks for sharing the Video, truly disheartening and disturbing. I haven't been keeping myself very up to date about the situation in Iran, but I hope the dilemma alleviates soon.

                RIP.
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              • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
                So let me ask you, lets say you had a neighbor that believed in the Holy Lawn Gnome. He prayed to the lawn gnome every day, and the teachings of the holy lawn gnome say that if you dont pray to the lawn gnome, you must be killed.

                Wouldnt you call that person crazy? Nuts? And most likely want him or her hustled off by the local police because anyone that thinks like that has got to be crazy, and a little dangerous? Of course you would.

                Yet you dont have a problem living next to, the person(s) that pray to the invisible man in the sky, and have a history of causing more death and destruction in the name of their belief than pretty much any other entity.

                but that seems ok to you?

                Originally Posted by Wakunahum View Post

                These deaths are sick.

                An individual who literally is going to kill for god is going to kill for god regardless whether religion is legal or not. They are killing THEREFORE they don't care about what law is or isn't. A ban on religion will not stop this violent killing no matter how much we both hate these deaths.

                And if religion is banned, it's not like these people will no longer believe in god. Killings for god will continue. A ban means you will put a punishment on the non-violent as well if they admit to believing in one.

                My point is that I can be tolerant and live in peace with my non-violent religious neighbors. You on the other hand want to hurt these innocent people with the force of law.

                What's wrong with tolerance and accepting that other's can think for themselves even if you don't agree with their conclusions?

                To me it's horrible to think that a peaceful Muslim, Jew, Christian, (or any person of any belief in anything)etc. will be hurt by a government because of something they believe.

                I think what you are trying to argue is a world where the concept of god never existed.
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    • Profile picture of the author dave830
      Originally Posted by Michael Motley View Post

      and people wonder why i think religion should be banned
      Hmmm... banning religion is the road to freedom? Really?
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    • Profile picture of the author KimW
      Originally Posted by Michael Motley View Post

      and people wonder why i think religion should be banned

      This isn't religion.
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    • Profile picture of the author myob
      Originally Posted by Michael Motley View Post

      and people wonder why i think religion should be banned
      I think you are missing the real issue. The Soviet Empire banned religion, and took God completely out of the equation. Atheism was the norm in government, in the media, in the schools, and for the vast majority of the population religion was irelevant. But that didn't seem to make any difference. Under Soviet rule, countless citizens were brutally punished, imprisoned and killed for political dissent by their own government. Soviet policy toward religion was based on the ideology of Marxism-Leninism, which made atheism the official doctrine of the Communist Party. This saying of Marx that religion is the opium of the people was the cornerstone of the entire ideology of Marxism about religion. In its heyday, the godless Soviet Union was a brutal dictatorship.

      The point you are missing is that when given an opportunity, people will fight for freedom and self-determination, not just a religion. As many of us witnessed the political and social freedoms instituted by the last Soviet leader, Mikhail Gorbachev in the 1980's, it created an atmosphere of open criticism of the Moscow regime and lead to its collapse in 1991.

      Living here in Los Angeles, I have come to know a great many Iranian-Americans. They want for their families, relatives and friends left behind in Iran just what we have here. We are witnessing today this same spirit of freedom from an oppressive regime that had been using religion itself as a weapon against its own people, just as the godless Soviet empire had brutally done without religion. The freedom to choose a legitimate government, a leader, a religion, or no religion is the driving force.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Maschke
    I also doubt there will be any real change in Iran, the ayatollah will probably remain the supreme leader.

    The key to the balance of power there rests with the GENERALS of their armies if there is to be true change of government in that now important strategic nation.

    If this uprising should fail, Iran will become more hard line than ever and pose an even greater danger with their nuclear program, to the region and the world.

    Israel will probably have to go it alone and launch a pre-emptive strike on the nuclear facilities, which will draw the entire mid east region into a war, which in turn will draw the U.S. in too.

    It's possible there is more riding on the backs of these brave Iranians than we know.

    Dave
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Well, I don't know about the people THERE, but I DID have an iranian roomate in highschool. IRAN ****WAS**** an ALLY! We even gave them the latest jets, and were in the midst of TRAINING them! My roomates father was a laison between the US and iranian military!

    So HOW did I meet up with him in an AMERICAN highschool in the late 70s!?!?!? His family was KICKED OUT of iran! He said they were throwing rocks at them EVEN as they were leaving. WHY!?!?!?

    The Ayotola Khomeini deposed the shah, and made it an ISLAMIC state! Ruhollah Khomeini - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia And apparently, THAT is why around that time so many iranians came here. My roomate was JEWISH!

    BTW The jets were sabotaged just as the Americans left. Last I heard, they were probably so badly rusted, etc..., that they were no good anymore.

    Heysal,

    I listened to NPR last week, and they said that only about 5% of iranian tagged messages were considered somewhat legit, as the rest were only retweets.

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post


      Heysal,

      I listened to NPR last week, and they said that only about 5% of iranian tagged messages were considered somewhat legit, as the rest were only retweets.

      Steve
      Steve - things have blown sky high after they killed Neda.
      Last night looked more like war than protest.

      What kicked it off was that they thought the election was rigged and wanted recounts. The reaction to their protests is to bring in martial law - close down communications, etc. Yes there were only snippets earlier this week - last night I watched the stream for hours and retweeted emergency info.

      The police are beating and killing protesters. They are taking them from hospitals and not allowing Dr's to treat wounded and no one knows where they are being taken. Families are not being notified of their dead to keep the rioting under control.

      The basij is invading homes now - and tweeters are being tracked and arrested.

      The Iranians asked that their @usernames not be used in retweets and have called to everyone to change their location and time zone to make it hard for them to be tracked.

      The info last night was regarding how to make weapons to defend against Basij attacks - warnings not to go to hospitals - users to block that were agents spreading fear tweets and tracking people. Users are setting up their machines as proxies so the Iranians can continue to communicate. In their words - they are sick of tyranny and don't want another 30 years of it.

      There were calls for blood at hospitals because of severe shortages, and info about which embasies were safe for injured to go to.


      Steve, I didn't pay attention to this until yesterday. We've had our own rigged elections (Can you spell B-U-S-H?) and we have a lot of legal action going on right now against electronic voting machines - there was even a test run at one point that showed a monkey can hack them, LOL. There is so much dirt on these machines and the people that make them and run the elections that I'm surprised we've even had to take it to court - "stop it" should have been enough.

      But when a government decides that it is better to incarcerate, beat, and even kill its own citizens rather than do a recount, ya just got to figure that there is some real stinky crap going on at the top. Right now they won't allow foreign news in at all - and are shutting down communications. That doesn't sound like an honest regime to me. Something is deadly wrong and I really support the people's fight to be free. We might have to deal with the same issue here some day.

      It's a bit hard to tell what is going on someplace else that we've never even been - but I've been an activist since I was 16. I really believe in freedom. What I have seen is when enough people are so angry at a government that they start mass protests, that something is really wrong. And when the answer of the gov is to invoke war and martial law on peaceful protesters instead of redressing their grievances, then something needs to be fixed there and if the people have to stand and fight for freedom and justice - then there is a tyrant behind it all.

      If the election had been valid, I'm sure a recount and investigation would have been no problem and would have silenced the uprising. Instead the answer is martial law, and a shut down of communications, jailing and exhile of news media. And loosing of a police force that became violent against their own people.

      So what IS going on over there?
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      • Profile picture of the author Killer Joe
        Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

        We might have to deal with the same issue here some day.
        Yes Sal, we will.

        After living through the LA riots in 1992 and seeing how fast a city of millions of people can go from everyday life to absolute anarchy in under 45 minutes no one could ever convince me otherwise.

        We're living on borrowed time in many respects. We are fed disinformation to keep us stupid, we are lied to by those we trust, and we have mortgaged tomorrow to make the next quarter look good.

        I feel sorry for my 6 grandchildren. It's a shame humans can't learn the real important lessons history could teach us if they didn't reinvent history every generation.

        Tick tock, tick tock, tick tock...

        KJ
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

        Steve, I didn't pay attention to this until yesterday. We've had our own rigged elections (Can you spell B-U-S-H?) and we have a lot of legal action going on right now against electronic voting machines - there was even a test run at one point that showed a monkey can hack them, LOL. There is so much dirt on these machines and the people that make them and run the elections that I'm surprised we've even had to take it to court - "stop it" should have been enough.
        Don't give me THAT garbage! I have been speaking against the voting methods since I started voting in the mid 1980s!!!! WHY???? FRAGILE PREPUNCHED cards and machines with NO method to be SURE what was done. Apparently, the media has not spoken up about this AT ALL!!!!!!! SURE, in california(los angeles county), they spoke of the "butterfly ballot" machines and the line up LOCALLY!!!!!!! And SURE they spoke of the same stupid ballot in FLORIDA, but they make people think this is a NEW phenomona created by Jeb bush, and it ISN'T!

        Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

        But when a government decides that it is better to incarcerate, beat, and even kill its own citizens rather than do a recount, ya just got to figure that there is some real stinky crap going on at the top. Right now they won't allow foreign news in at all - and are shutting down communications. That doesn't sound like an honest regime to me. Something is deadly wrong and I really support the people's fight to be free. We might have to deal with the same issue here some day.
        A recount of those ballots was NEVER possible! They are TOO FRAGILE! I wouldn't trust them to even run through ONCE.

        Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

        It's a bit hard to tell what is going on someplace else that we've never even been - but I've been an activist since I was 16. I really believe in freedom. What I have seen is when enough people are so angry at a government that they start mass protests, that something is really wrong. And when the answer of the gov is to invoke war and martial law on peaceful protesters instead of redressing their grievances, then something needs to be fixed there and if the people have to stand and fight for freedom and justice - then there is a tyrant behind it all.
        You just implied all people are honest. If all people are honest though, how can the dictator be bad? NOPE SAL! Not all people are honest, and sometimes mass protests are started by KOOKS! HECK, THATT is why we have so many countries, languages, wars, etc.....

        Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

        If the election had been valid, I'm sure a recount and investigation would have been no problem and would have silenced the uprising. Instead the answer is martial law, and a shut down of communications, jailing and exhile of news media. And loosing of a police force that became violent against their own people.

        So what IS going on over there?
        A recount is IMPOSSIBLE! ESPECIALLY since there are accusations of votes getting thrown out, etc... The protestors do NOT want a recount! They want another election!!!!!!

        And WHO would investigate?
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  • Profile picture of the author Patrician
    ... while this problem is serious for IRANIANS, the funny part is North Korea isn't even in the news?

    Why just last week they had a ship with possibly nuclear materials that the US was going to forcibly intercept, (NK said this would be an 'act of war') - they were aiming their 'test' at Hawaii and US is rushing there with anti-missile tech.

    I think this is a lot more directly serious to us yet the media whore is on to the next sensationalist cause.

    If they fire one more test, WE ARE NUTS if we do not flatten their missle sites - just put them out of business.

    Then again, at least they are now warning us about their little jerk off tests, whereas if we take the 'upper' hand, they may not warn us and it may not be just a 'test'.

    In any case sanctions aren't working, warnings aren't working (even from China and Russia) - so I still think just eliminating their facilities is the best idea to avoid any mistakes or unpleasant surprises in the future.

    Thanks for the test, and to show our gratitude we are sending you one of ours and it this is not a test. It's for real just like your threats.
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    • Profile picture of the author scorpio7
      Originally Posted by Patrician View Post

      ... while this problem is serious for IRANIANS, the funny part is North Korea isn't even in the news?

      Why just last week they had a ship with possibly nuclear materials that the US was going to forcibly intercept, (NK said this would be an 'act of war') - they were aiming their 'test' at Hawaii and US is rushing there with anti-missile tech.

      I think this is a lot more directly serious to us yet the media whore is on to the next sensationalist cause.

      If they fire one more test, WE ARE NUTS if we do not flatten their missle sites - just put them out of business.

      Then again, at least they are now warning us about their little jerk off tests, whereas if we take the 'upper' hand, they may not warn us and it may not be just a 'test'.

      In any case sanctions aren't working, warnings aren't working (even from China and Russia) - so I still think just eliminating their facilities is the best idea to avoid any mistakes or unpleasant surprises in the future.

      Thanks for the test, and to show our gratitude we are sending you one of ours and it this is not a test. It's for real just like your threats.
      OMG. I agree. The fact that North Korea is not the top issue in the news, daily, disturbs me. I don't believe in studying war or violence at all but this is a threat of harm. I do believe in using my common sense to seek a way to derail another's violent actions toward me. I definitely believe in self defense. Just my 2 cent on this.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Aiming their missiles at hawaii IS, by DEFINITION, an ACT OF WAR! Anyone forget that this is how WWII started for the US? Japan decided to take crude missles, fashion them like torpedos, and tried to sink the US ships. WWIII ALMOST started when Russian Weapons were placed in Cuba, and aimed at the US in America.

    The people in North Korea must be real IDIOTS! The BEST they can hope is a stalemate they ALREADY have, and to be hated EVEN MORE by the world! The WORST is that their entire country and people could be OBLITERATED! Give me a break!

    Wasn't ONE country enough? 2? 3? 4? Everyone all but knows there are at least 4. I USED to think NONE of them were so stupid. NOW, I doubt if any are so smart as to consider retaliation, etc...

    BTW patrician.... Nuclear missles can be quite involved. HOW can we test them well without using them for real? They are threatening to send them near US territory. That is VERY dangerous. If we hit a small city of theirs, is it REALLY so different? Besides, Hawaiis territory is unstable. Who KNOWS what will happen if even a CONVENTIONAL bomb hurts the integrity of the crust anywhere near it?

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author ConcordeWarrior
      To Sal:

      I have set up my Twitter as per your indications.
      I hope this will help these Iranians that need it.
      I have always considered Iraninans to be friends.
      Persia's history and civiilization was outstanding.

      How do we set up our Twitters to receive messages about what's going on in Tehran and other cities?
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  • Profile picture of the author Sue Harrison
    I have NEVER seen someone die, never seen a dead body and believe me, I wish to God I hadn't had the morbid interest in watching this video. That poor, poor girl, irrespective of whatever the reasons for her death were, I wish to God, it had never been posted on here. If I could do something to change mankind I would - cryng again now at the image of that poor little girl - she had her life ahead of her, poor little soul.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    For those of you who don't use twitter - I'm posting a list of just a few of the fresh posts here.

    What is interesting - and what we all must see and understand - is that twitter has been used as a social media source.......but right now it is being used to bring the world of people - not governments together.....in support and aid to a land of people fighting for their freedom. As the government is closing down their right to communicate, the world is building decoy profiles and proxies to allow them to continue their battle, to let them know safe havens, and means to fight the Basij.
    Can Governments continue to feel safe instituting tryanny with a whole world of people ready to come to the aid of the oppressed?

    Because of the internet we have at our fingertips the means to get to know, understand, and befriend people who we would have never known a thing about other than what our leaders want us to know. We can share their joys and grief as never before. Now the whole world is able to aid in a cause we all can stand behind - Freedom.

    Tyrants are losing control to tell their people "they hate you" - they can no longer just declare enemies when the people communicate so freely. They can no longer depend on secrecy to wield unwanted authority. Governments still have power and armies, but they no longer have the ability to hide behind lies.

    I think we are seeing more of a revolution here than just a people fighting for their freedom.

    A SAMPLE OF RECENT TWEETS:
    people of Iran DO NOT confront the Basiji empty handed get your weapon and burn them in the building & on their bikes

    can anyone else confirm basij hq is in flames? We are looking for confirmation and video

    Protesters...fill glass jars with gasoline, tie rag around it, soak rag with gas, light rag, throw jar at paramilitary.

    WE WILL FIGHT for OUR FREEDOM as long as we are ALIVE:

    Trying to confirm now: ALL Internet connection is being blocked inside Iran

    Hamas militias being used 2 kill the innocents in the streets of Iran... Will you Re-Elect Obama?

    RT@Jikiri It took just one bullet to kill Neda. It will take just one Neda to bring an end to Iranian tyranny

    RT ppl in Iran should remove all the street signs, so shipped in forces will lose orientation.

    RT Iran About 10,000 ppl sitting on Str at Gisha St (North Tehran) No Police till now

    Clerics may form alterntv collectv leadershp replacing supreme leader

    Protesters spill sand on street to derail Basiji & police motorcycles

    RT Iran putting 'prisoners' on TV 'confessing' they are MKO agents and behind Green Movement. Lies

    Ahmenejad won more votes than there were voters - AND rural areas usually don't vote for Conservatives: http://bit.ly/i9CW9

    PLS RT- World unites for democracy in Iran http://sn.im/kl5uw #IranElection #Azadi #Ashraf #Rajavi #Neda

    odays official statement from the german government regarding human rights in Iran: http://bit.ly/ZYPgs (in german)

    RT: Tehran's attorney annonced: We dont know who Killed Protesters yesterday! We are searching for "The Murder"!!!

    Mousavi urges more protests, gunfire heard: http://tr.im/pg2A #IranElection

    Sounds of Allahu Akbar echo across the cities. Ahmadi, are you listening? Freedom is calling! #iranelection #gr88 #neda



    PEOPLE ARE PUTTING THEIR AVATARS ON A PAGE IN SUPPORT OF IRANIANS - ALMOST UP TO 5,000 NOW
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    Italian, Canadian, Austrian Embassies CONFIRMED taking injured! http://bit.ly/ZJpt6 #iranelection updates as they come RT

    Night in Iran, Allah Akbar again everywhere. Stay strong and ORGANIZED. Establish small groups, coordinate, and build! #iranelection #gr88

    TAKE PICTURES + VIDEOS OF ATTACKERS - EVERYBODY HAVE THEIR CAMERA OUT - SHOW THEM THEY WILL BE ACCOUNTABLE #iranelection #tehran #gr88

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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    It's been confirmed that Iran's new "leader" got more votes than there were voters. LOL.
    Now that isn't religion, that's an evil regime not willing to let go of power when people want him out. The fact that part of his tyranny is to legislate religion is just part of his problem. I have faith that Iranians will be able to oust this guy. Any leader in this day and age that steals power then is perfectly okay with attacking his own people to keep it isn't going to last too long when the people have had more than they are going to take.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    That's true, Tim. There are a LOT of women in this resistance. The name of the
    green movement has been changed to the Neda movement.

    Steve. I'd say you are right. I don't think a recount is going to help anything at this
    point - I don't even think a re-election will slide.
    The Guardian Committee now has found over 3 mil questionable votes with votes
    in 50 cities for the pres exceeding the voting population in those areas.
    But considering the violence against the protesters I don't think they will want that
    guy back under any circumstances - protests that started peaceful are now calling for Khamani's death.
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  • Profile picture of the author Good News Now
    It so hard to watch this video. My heart and prayers goes with this family and Iranian people.
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  • Profile picture of the author dave830
    KJ,

    Yes, the leaders hold a religious position, but its the desire for power and control that are driving this, not the tenants of the religion they claim to be leading.
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    • Profile picture of the author Killer Joe
      Originally Posted by dave830 View Post

      KJ,

      Yes, the leaders hold a religious position, but its the desire for power and control that are driving this, not the tenants of the religion they claim to be leading.
      Hi Dave,

      Thanks for adding that viewpoint.

      I guess the next question is how did the power and control come to be vested in these individuals.

      If the answer is based on the fact that they hold their positions due to their Cleric status, and you strip away the sovereignty of religion that gave them that power in the region, then we're back to square one.

      Again, think for a minute about the analogy I made earlier about Copernicus and the CC.

      It is without doubt that the power foundation stems from a religious stronghold, and not one of secular origins.

      I am not infering in these posts that a specific religious ideal or tenant is the basis for power, only that it is a religion that provides the glue that creates a power higher archey.

      In truth, this is a benign constriant. How it is used determines its' volatility.

      KJ
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      • Profile picture of the author dave830
        Originally Posted by Killer Joe View Post

        Hi Dave,

        Thanks for adding that viewpoint.

        I guess the next question is how did the power and control come to be vested in these individuals.

        If the answer is based on the fact that they hold their positions due to their Cleric status, and you strip away the sovereignty of religion that gave them that power in the region, then we're back to square one.

        Again, think for a minute about the analogy I made earlier about Copernicus and the CC.

        It is without doubt that the power foundation stems from a religious stronghold, and not one of secular origins.

        I am not infering in these posts that a specific religious ideal or tenant is the basis for power, only that it is a religion that provides the glue that creates a power higher archey.

        In truth, this is a benign constriant. How it is used determines its' volatility.

        KJ
        We're on the same page, KJ.

        And your analogy with Copernicus I agree with also.

        Here's the difference to me, and for some reason, a lot of anti-religion folks don't make this leap:

        there is a difference between the origins of a faith, and the religion itself.

        I'm a follower of Jesus. But I'm disgusted with a lot of "religious" stuff churches are doing. Judgementalism, getting caught up in politics, abortion shootings, "the world is 4000 years old", power hungry leaders, hypocrisy... all these have nothing to do with what the man said.

        Yet we all get lumped into the same category... RELIGIOUS.
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      • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
        Some of the Iranian government gets power by being elected and some are appointed. The Guardian Council is appointed by the Parliament who are elected. The Supreme Leader is elected by the Assembly of Experts and they also can remove him. The Assembly of Experts are elected by the people. The President is "supposed to be" elected by the people.


        Originally Posted by Killer Joe View Post

        I guess the next question is how did the power and control come to be vested in these individuals.
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  • Profile picture of the author derekwong28
    You know, Khatamia had been president for 8 years and he was not able to push reforms through the religious establishment. Mousavi made a lot of campaign promises but I just can't see how he would succeed when Khatami failed before him. Mousavi had been out of politics for a number of years, it is very unlikely he would have the power base to take on the surpeme leader and other hardling mullahs.

    I really have to agree that although there is some sort of democracy, the whole system is set up in such a way that hardliners have the upper hand and final say. The main issue is did Ahmadinejad really won or not and whether there was large scale fraud. So far, outside opinion is very divided on this issue.

    I can understand the frustrations of young people there, especially women. But in terms of personal freedoms, they are much better off than women in Saudi Arabia. Of course, what is happening in Iran is very important. It would affect the whole Middle East and the world. These student riots is reminiscent of what happend in Tianamen in China exactly 20 years ago. Even though the students were crushed, it did eventually led to a series of reforms that resulted in giving a lot of personal and economic freedoms to the people.

    Derek
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  • Profile picture of the author Patrician
    Absolutely so true. We need to mind our own business which by the way is in shambles.

    I would say North Korea and Illegal Aliens are a huge concern that we need to worry about. We need to get out of Iraq. Maybe Afghanistan. Put the troops on the Mexican border.

    We need to tell Israel that they are on their own, and that Palestine should have a separate state and cut the crap. After all we are supporting them while they are treating Palestinians like animals.

    MYOB - BYOB - MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS AND BRING YOUR OWN BATTLE.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
    Palestine causes their own mess. We shouldnt tell anyone anything. We should let the chips fall where they may.
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    • Profile picture of the author Patrician
      Originally Posted by Michael Motley View Post

      Palestine causes their own mess. We shouldnt tell anyone anything. We should let the chips fall where they may.
      Remember when we are forced to speak Spanish here, we are relegated to 'American citizen reservations' and the illegals take over everything, that we have caused the mess and to let the chips fall where they may.
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
        Originally Posted by Patrician View Post

        Remember when we are speaking Spanish here and relegated to 'American citizen ghettos' and the illegals take over everything, that we have caused it.
        Of course we caused it...and ARE causing it.
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      • Profile picture of the author KimW
        Originally Posted by Patrician View Post

        Remember when we are forced to speak Spanish here, we are relegated to 'American citizen reservations' and the illegals take over everything, that we have caused the mess and to let the chips fall where they may.

        This weekend I went back to where I bought my first house in 1979,and sold it in 1999. It was an area for young couples starting out back then ( But I was a single guy). I pulled into a place whose name I couldn't pronounce,but when I lived here before it was a High's store. For those of you that don't know, Highs is/was a small chain like 7-11.
        Anyways, I pumped my gas and the pump said go inside for receipt.
        I walked in and there wasn't one item in the store that I could see that was labeled in english.

        Every customer in the store was speaking spanish to each other.
        I had to wait 5 minutes for the help to come out of the back and she commented to every person in the store,in spanish, while on her way to help me.

        We need to worry about our own house before someone elses.
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        • Profile picture of the author Patrician
          Originally Posted by KimW View Post

          I walked in and there wasn't one item in the store that I could see that was labeled in english.

          Every customer in the store was speaking spanish to each other.
          I had to wait 5 minutes for the help to come out of the back and she commented to every person in the store,in spanish, while on her way to help me.

          We need to worry about our own house before someone elses.
          Wow - Zona Twilighto, eh, Kim? I better not say what I am thinking, well the system will just go **** - but I hear you. Hopefully they will go broke or something and go home.

          I know I boycott any store that doesn't have their sign in English. It says we are not welcome in our own country. So what else is new? Living on the Left Coast I am used to this...
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          • Profile picture of the author KimW
            Originally Posted by Patrician View Post

            Wow - Zona Twilighto, eh, Kim? I better not say what I am thinking, well the system will just go **** - but I hear you. Hopefully they will go broke or something and go home.

            I know I boycott any store that doesn't have their sign in English. It says we are not welcome in our own country. So what else is new? Living on the Left Coast I am used to this...
            No, they won't go broke and go home, they have taken over the whole town from what I have been told and saw.
            I have no problem with anyone who is here legally, but those that are here and welcomed here should be REQUIRED to learn and speak english.

            This reminds me of something else that happened to me recently. Someoen posted about getting a speeding ticket recently. I posted that I did too. I went to court to fight it.
            While there I realized there was a whole other economy going on. There was one hispanic lady that was acting as a translator and lawyer for almost every hispanic in the court room and there were plenty. If she was getting paid by everyone she represented she was making a fortune.
            But while I was waiting for my case to be called, I saw hispanic after hispanic persons called up before the Judge and each and everyone told the Judge they had no liscense and/or identification papers. Most of them the Judge left off by giving them 30 days to get their liscense and come back to the courts. Rediculous!
            Sorry to hijack your thread Tim.
            This thread is for a good cause.
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  • Profile picture of the author Patrician
    Here is the deal with religious topics. It's only fair:

    I am not allowed to try to tell you what I see as the truth. Therefore you should not be allowed to come in here and talk about how you see it (or don't see it as the case may be).

    I hope I can get away with saying don't blame God for your blindness or for evil men and their religions and the way they have *******ized all of them.
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    • Profile picture of the author KimW
      Originally Posted by Patrician View Post

      Here is the deal with religious topics. It's only fair:

      I am not allowed to try to tell you what I see as the truth. Therefore you should not be allowed to come in here and talk about how you see it (or don't see it as the case may be).

      I hope I can get away with saying don't blame God for your blindness or for evil men and their religions and the way they have *******ized all of them.
      Pat,
      My belief is just because someone doesn't believe in a God ,that doesn't mean he/she doesn't exist.

      Let the fools fall where they may.

      And oh yeah, ever since Allen posted no politics and religion I have tried to remind people about the rule, but now it seems no one cares anymore what Allen wants in his own forum, so in that regards I also say let the fools fall where they may.Myself included.
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      • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
        A strategy I just saw that the reformers are using, which is brilliant, is they are following the government militia to where they live and reversing the roles.

        What was going on was the militia thugs were following or tracking the protesters to their homes and making arrests, beating them up or intimidating the protestors. Now the militia thugs are being followed home and are facing the same pressure. Wow! This is serious stuff and shows the reformers are not just on the defense.
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        • Profile picture of the author Thomas
          Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

          A strategy I just saw that the reformers are using, which is brilliant, is they are following the government militia to where they live and reversing the roles.

          What was going on was the militia thugs were following or tracking the protesters to their homes and making arrests, beating them up or intimidating the protestors. Now the militia thugs are being followed home and are facing the same pressure. Wow! This is serious stuff and shows the reformers are not just on the defense.
          You're right, Tim. It is an extremely effective tactic, which increases exponentially in effectiveness the higher up the 'food-chain' you go. Even if it doesn't successfully intimidate them personally (although it will in 99% of cases), it will intimidate their families, who then put an extraordinary level of pressure on them to avoid do anything that makes them targets again. And family pressure is an exceptionally hard thing for anybody to resist.

          Also, even if you disagree with whatever government-directed actions you are part of, it's relatively easy to get lost in the system and divorce yourself from the reality of what you're doing. In fact, the larger the system, the easier it is to say "I have no choice". But, when the backlash comes upon you personally, instead of the system, that viewpoint changes pretty quickly and most people will do anything to avoid being on the receiving end of it again (although that also makes the need for sustained intimidation more pressing).

          On the face of it, the sheer size of organisations like the Basij (between 1 and 20 million people, depending on who you listen to) makes the need to travel up the 'food chain' even more pressing (unless you can concentrate your "counter-intimidation" activities in specific georgraphical areas) but it also has a big unapparent advantage: the larger an organisation, the wider it's connection to society and the easier it becomes to attack them by intimidating individual members and, especially, their families.

          Tommy.
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      • Profile picture of the author myob
        I learned from some of my Iranian-American friends that the name of the innocent girl that was killed, Neda, means "The Voice" in Farsi. Her death brought a unified voice to these people, which transcends both politics and religion, and speaks to basic inalienable human rights. She is now considered to be the symbol for the human rights movement sweeping across the country, and the beginning of a loud and clear voice to other oppressors around the world.
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        • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
          Yeh Paul, I think this is a big deal. Some people don't comprehend it yet perhaps and don't see how it will affect them. Some say " so what". "It's not my country". However, what is happening is huge. There are so many ways this affects Americans and the rest of the world. If the reformers are successful that is, and I think it is to the point it can't be turned back.

          What's really interesting is the role of the internet in this hopeful revolution. The internet can expose the truth, even when the government tries to deny it.

          Originally Posted by myob View Post

          I learned from some of my Iranian-American friends that the name of the innocent girl that was killed, Neda, means "The Voice" in Farsi. Her death brought a unified voice to these people, which transcends both politics and religion, and speaks to basic inalienable human rights. She is now considered to be the symbol for the human rights movement sweeping across the country, and the beginning of a loud and clear voice to other oppressors around the world.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    We aren't causing it - greed of the government is causing it.........we just aren't doing anything much to stop it. Same thing in the long run I guess. But I wonder - is anyone filling the streets in protest as the Iranians against the corruption in their offices?

    These people are filling their streets - and are suffering for it. If we should find out they are right and are being subjected unwillingly to a gov they don't want, shouldn't we step in to help remove it -- especially considering our responsibility for its very existence in the first place? Was it right for us to war against Hitler when he had never set foot on our soil?

    Where exactly do we draw our lines and still remain who we are?
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      We aren't causing it - greed of the government is causing it.........we just aren't doing anything much to stop it. Same thing in the long run I guess. But I wonder - is anyone filling the streets in protest as the Iranians against the corruption in their offices?

      These people are filling their streets - and are suffering for it. If we should find out they are right and are being subjected unwillingly to a gov they don't want, shouldn't we step in to help remove it -- especially considering our responsibility for its very existence in the first place? Was it right for us to war against Hitler when he had never set foot on our soil?

      Where exactly do we draw our lines and still remain who we are?
      The greed of the government isn't making businesses hire illegals. if there are no jobs for them, they will stop. Thats the greed of everyday schlubs that own businesses.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    But it's illegal here, Michael - yet the government is not only allowing, but supporting it.
    You are right that there are jobs -- but it's up to the Government to enforce our laws. Companies might be the cause - but if no one is stopping them, who is the blame?
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
    Its not the government's job to tell people to do the right thing. Its not the government's job to tell the everyday person to save their own a$$.
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  • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
    Kim I'm surprised they even show up. Most of them don't bother cause they have no license, no identification, many give police a fake name, so they get away with it.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Tim - at least those people have been told. Many aren't being told that their children were gunned down in the streets while unarmed in order to keep the unrest to a dull roar. While Iran officials are trying to say they didn't kill Neda they defy their own innocence by denying her family a memorial service.

    After seeing the way this guy runs things for just two days, I can say that news of his ass being hung from a lamp post would be an extreme joy.

    World developments being what they have been the last decade I think it would be a good idea to take everyone in power now - of large corps, government, religions -- any power anywhere - just yank them all out and tell them they had their turn and just f***ed it all up too wildly and restaff every one of those offices with people who have not yet been corrupted with power and greed. It would be a good time of man to just start it all over again.
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    • Profile picture of the author ConcordeWarrior
      Published on Monday, June 22, 2009 by TruthDig.com

      Iran Had a Democracy Before We Took It Away

      by Chris Hedges

      Iranians do not need or want us to teach them about liberty and representative government. They have long embodied this struggle. It is we who need to be taught. It was Washington that orchestrated the 1953 coup to topple Iran's democratically elected government, the first in the Middle East, and install the compliant shah in power. It was Washington that forced Prime Minister Mohammed Mossadegh, a man who cared as much for his country as he did for the rule of law and democracy, to spend the rest of his life under house arrest. We gave to the Iranian people the corrupt regime of the shah and his savage secret police and the primitive clerics that rose out of the swamp of the dictator's Iran. Iranians know they once had a democracy until we took it away.

      The fundamental problem in the Middle East is not a degenerate and corrupt Islam. The fundamental problem is a degenerate and corrupt Christendom. We have not brought freedom and democracy and enlightenment to the Muslim world. We have brought the opposite. We have used the iron fist of the American military to implant our oil companies in Iraq, occupy Afghanistan and ensure that the region is submissive and cowed. We have supported a government in Israel that has carried out egregious war crimes in Lebanon and Gaza and is daily stealing ever greater portions of Palestinian land. We have established a network of military bases, some the size of small cities, in Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Kuwait, and we have secured basing rights in the Gulf states of Bahrain, Qatar, Oman and the United Arab Emirates. We have expanded our military operations to Uzbekistan, Pakistan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Egypt, Algeria and Yemen. And no one naively believes, except perhaps us, that we have any intention of leaving.

      We are the biggest problem in the Middle East. We have through our cruelty and violence created and legitimized the Mahmoud Ahmadinejads and the Osama bin Ladens. The longer we lurch around the region dropping iron fragmentation bombs and seizing Muslim land the more these monsters, reflections of our own distorted image, will proliferate. The theologian Reinhold Niebuhr wrote that "the most significant moral characteristic of a nation is its hypocrisy." But our hypocrisy no longer fools anyone but ourselves. It will ensure our imperial and economic collapse.

      The history of modern Iran is the history of a people battling tyranny. These tyrants were almost always propped up and funded by foreign powers. This suppression and distortion of legitimate democratic movements over the decades resulted in the 1979 revolution that brought the Iranian clerics to power, unleashing another tragic cycle of Iranian resistance.

      "The central story of Iran over the last 200 years has been national humiliation at the hands of foreign powers who have subjugated and looted the country," Stephen Kinzer, the author of "All the Shah's Men: An American Coup and the Roots of Middle East Terror," told me. "For a long time the perpetrators were the British and Russians. Beginning in 1953, the United States began taking over that role. In that year, the American and British secret services overthrew an elected government, wiped away Iranian democracy, and set the country on the path to dictatorship."

      "Then, in the 1980s, the U.S. sided with Saddam Hussein in the Iran-Iraq war, providing him with military equipment and intelligence that helped make it possible for his army to kill hundreds of thousands of Iranians," Kinzer said. "Given this history, the moral credibility of the U.S. to pose as a promoter of democracy in Iran is close to nil.

      Especially ludicrous is the sight of people in Washington calling for intervention on behalf of democracy in Iran when just last year they were calling for the bombing of Iran. If they had had their way then, many of the brave protesters on the streets of Tehran today--the ones they hold up as heroes of democracy--would be dead now."

      Washington has never recovered from the loss of Iran--something our intelligence services never saw coming. The overthrow of the shah, the humiliation of the embassy hostages, the laborious piecing together of tiny shreds of paper from classified embassy documents to expose America's venal role in thwarting democratic movements in Iran and the region, allowed the outside world to see the dark heart of the American empire. Washington has demonized Iran ever since, painting it as an irrational and barbaric country filled with primitive, religious zealots. But Iranians, as these street protests illustrate, have proved in recent years far more courageous in the defense of democracy than most Americans.

      Where were we when our election was stolen from us in 2000 by Republican operatives and a Supreme Court that overturned all legal precedent to anoint George W. Bush president? Did tens of thousands of us fill the squares of our major cities and denounce the fraud? Did we mobilize day after day to restore transparency and accountability to our election process? Did we fight back with the same courage and tenacity as the citizens of Iran? Did Al Gore defy the power elite and, as opposition candidate Mir Hossein Mousavi has done, demand a recount at the risk of being killed?

      President Obama retreated in his Cairo speech into our spectacular moral nihilism, suggesting that our crimes matched the crimes of Iran, that there is, in his words, "a tumultuous history between us." He went on: "In the middle of the Cold War, the United States played a role in the overthrow of a democratically elected Iranian government. Since the Islamic Revolution, Iran has played a role in acts of hostage-taking and violence against U.S. troops and civilians." It all, he seemed to say, balances out.

      I am no friend of the Iranian regime, which helped create and arm Hezbollah, is certainly meddling in Iraq, has persecuted human rights activists, gays, women and religious and ethnic minorities, embraces racism and intolerance and uses its power to deny popular will. But I do not remember Iran orchestrating a coup in the United States to replace an elected government with a brutal dictator who for decades persecuted, assassinated and imprisoned democracy activists. I do not remember Iran arming and funding a neighboring state to wage war against our country. Iran never shot down one of our passenger jets as did the USS Vincennes-caustically nicknamed Robocruiser by the crews of other American vessels-when in June 1988 it fired missiles at an Airbus filled with Iranian civilians, killing everyone on board. Iran is not sponsoring terrorism within the United States, as our intelligence services currently do in Iran. The attacks on Iranian soil include suicide bombings, kidnappings, beheadings, sabotage and "targeted assassinations" of government officials, scientists and other Iranian leaders. What would we do if the situation was reversed? How would we react if Iran carried out these policies against us?

      We are, and have long been, the primary engine for radicalism in the Middle East. The greatest favor we can do for democracy activists in Iran, as well as in Iraq, Afghanistan, the Gulf and the dictatorships that dot North Africa, is withdraw our troops from the region and begin to speak to Iranians and the rest of the Muslim world in the civilized language of diplomacy, respect and mutual interests. The longer we cling to the doomed doctrine of permanent war the more we give credibility to the extremists who need, indeed yearn for, an enemy that speaks in their crude slogans of nationalist cant and violence. The louder the Israelis and their idiot allies in Washington call for the bombing of Iran to thwart its nuclear ambitions, the happier are the bankrupt clerics who are ordering the beating and murder of demonstrators. We may laugh when crowds supporting Ahmadinejad call us "the Great Satan," but there is a very palpable reality that has informed the terrible algebra of their hatred.

      Our intoxication with our military prowess blinds us to all possibilities of hope and mutual cooperation. It was Mohammed Khatami, the president of Iran from 1997 to 2005-perhaps the only honorable Middle East leader of our time-whose refusal to countenance violence by his own supporters led to the demise of his lofty "civil society" at the hands of more ruthless, less scrupulous opponents. It was Khatami who proclaimed that "the death of even one Jew is a crime." And we sputtered back to this great and civilized man the primitive slogans of all deformed militarists. We were captive, as all bigots are, to our demons, and could not hear any sound but our own shouting. It is time to banish these demons. It is time to stand not with the helmeted goons who beat protesters, not with those in the Pentagon who make endless wars, but with the unarmed demonstrators in Iran who daily show us what we must become.

      The fight of the Iranian people is our fight. And, perhaps for the first time, we can match our actions to our ideals. We have no right under post-Nuremberg laws to occupy Iraq or Afghanistan. These occupations are defined by these statutes as criminal "wars of aggression." They are war crimes. We have no right to use force, including the state-sponsored terrorism we unleash on Iran, to turn the Middle East into a private gas station for our large oil companies. We have no right to empower Israel's continuing occupation of Palestine, a flagrant violation of international law. The resistance you see in Iran will not end until Iranians, and all those burdened with repression in the Middle East, free themselves from the tyranny that comes from within and without. Let us, for once, be on the side of those who share our democratic ideals.
      © 2009 TruthDig.com

      Chris Hedges writes a regular column for Truthdig.com. Hedges graduated from Harvard Divinity School and was for nearly two decades a foreign correspondent for The New York Times. He is the author of many books, including: War Is A Force That Gives Us Meaning, What Every Person Should Know About War, and American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America. His most recent book, Empire of Illusion: The End of Literacy and the Triumph of Spectacle, will be out in July, but is available for pre-order.

      Iran Had a Democracy Before We Took It Away | CommonDreams.org
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  • Profile picture of the author derekwong28
    Yes, and they installed Pinochet in Chile as well.

    That is why it is absolutely essential that the US government doe not get sucked into this. It will make the hardliners much easier to contain dissent by rallying their population against an outisde power i.e. the Great Satan. The fact that Britain bore the brunt of hardliners' rhetoric so far is encouraging.

    Derek
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    • Profile picture of the author myob
      The propaganda machine is working quite well. Iran has never been a democracy; it is an Islamic republic ruled by clerics, who often quarrel and jockey among themselves for power using the world as a stage for their own purposes and alliances. The people of Iran are some of the highest educated in the world, and they are able to see through the deception of their own leaders. To keep from being used as a tool of propaganda by a ruthless government that has hijacked Islam itself, the West - especially the US, must stay out of it and watch helplessly as the Iranians set their own destiny and raise their own voice against oppression. The ruling clerics are terrified by the voice of Neda, which now cannot be silenced. Her voice is being heard around the world, but all we can do is watch and listen as it begins to drown out the propaganda of a regime that will kill its own citizens for power.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
    There are times when I think actions like this would be benefit this country. As the wise Mr Jefferson said...the tree of liberty...
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
    I've found something very interesting about this story.

    Since yesterday, her age has changed 3 times, and fox news has had 2 pictures of what are two different women up saying this was her.

    Now i'm not saying anything for sure, but I know i've seen quite a few stories of how in places like palestine, israel and iraq, that quite often news sources will pay people to basically stage being shot or killed.

    I wonder if this is something that is staged to be a catalyst of sorts. I could be completely wrong, but in this day and age where populations can be controlled by what they see on tv, it wouldnt be suprising for something like that to go on in such an emotional and volatile setting.
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      I saw thw Shah's son on TV this morning and he made an interesting comment.
      He said that many of the police, etc. are now standing around for their shifts then going home, changing clothes and going out protesting.
      He said the reason is many of the older ones fought in the Iran-Iraq war and now realize that those they are fighting now are the ones they where protecting before.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    I don't think so. There are too many videos out that show brutality. It was about like Kent was back in..68? 69? Someone got trigger happy. We see it all the time over here with police whose balls are bigger than their brains and tase people to death or shoot when they shouldn't. Just this time the crowd is big enough and angry enough that the killing has spurred a war. I don't necessarily think that they were aiming to kill this particular woman, though.

    Thom - I heard the army is also refusing orders, too. Without control of the army that regime can call itself toast.
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      I don't think so. There are too many videos out that show brutality. It was about like Kent was back in..68? 69? Someone got trigger happy. We see it all the time over here with police whose balls are bigger than their brains and tase people to death or shoot when they shouldn't. Just this time the crowd is big enough and angry enough that the killing has spurred a war. I don't necessarily think that they were aiming to kill this particular woman, though.

      Thom - I heard the army is also refusing orders, too. Without control of the army that regime can call itself toast.
      not this particular woman..but a woman.

      You'll notice she's not a man..as you see in most of the pics on the unrest so far. A very pretty female college student, in a huge demographic. I mean you really couldnt pick a better person to be a martyr for a cause than this one. Co
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      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
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        • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
          So, the Iranian goverment forced the family of Neda to leave their apartment apparently and cancelled her funeral. They also banned any mourning. However, they also say she was killed by protestors and is a martyr of the Basij militia! This is the ultimate spin. If she was a martyr then why cancell a funeral and ban any mourning? Unbelievable claims again from these desperate so called leaders.

          Neda Soltan family 'forced out of home' by Iranian authorities | World news | guardian.co.uk

          "The government is also accusing protesters of killing Soltan, describing her as a martyr of the Basij militia. Javan, a pro-government newspaper, has gone so far as to blame the recently expelled BBC correspondent, Jon Leyne, of hiring "thugs" to shoot her so he could make a documentary film."

          The Iranian goverment is also claiming Neda was killed by the CIA.


          These guys BS like the world champs of BSing. Who do they think they are fooling?
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          • Profile picture of the author ConcordeWarrior
            "This death of Neda is very suspicious," Ambassador Mohammad Hassan Ghadiri said. "My question is, how is it that this Miss Neda is shot from behind, got shot in front of several cameras, and is shot in an area where no significant demonstration was behind held?"

            He suggested that the CIA or another intelligence service may have been responsible.

            Iranian envoy: CIA involved in Neda's shooting? - CNN.com
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  • Profile picture of the author BlackWaterBlog
    RIP Neda, may your god watch over your soul for the rest of eternity.

    I don't like seeing innocent people being killed, while criminals get to live.
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