9 Signs America's Gun Obsession Is Getting Worse:

Banned 10 years ago

Basically junk science meant to inflame the uniformed public --> let's take a look at some real statistics.

National rates of gun homicide and other violent gun crimes are strikingly lower now than during their peak in the mid-1990s, paralleling a general decline in violent crime, according to a Pew Research Center analysis of government data. Beneath the long-term trend, though, are big differences by decade: Violence plunged through the 1990s, but has declined less dramatically since 2000.

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware | Pew Research Center

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-don

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TLTheLiberator 10 years ago

Originally Posted by ForumGuru

Basically junk science meant to inflame the uniformed public --> let's take a look at some real statistics.

Cheers

-don

I see what you mean. In some respects and on some stats its not as bad as it was but IMHO it's still bad.

We are all entitled.
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- ForumGuru Banned 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator
  
  I see what you mean. In some respects and on some stats its not as bad as it was but IMHO it's still bad.
  
  Some respects? You mean the rate of fatal and non-fatal firearm crime is quite low compared to what is was 10, 20, 30, 40 and 50 years ago.
  
  Cheers
  
  -don
  
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ForumGuru

Banned 10 years ago

Junk science or not?

The US Murder Rate Is on Track to Be Lowest in a Century
This is powerful evidence in favor of the theory that lead exposure in childhood produces higher rates of violent crime in adulthood. It's one thing to have two simple curves that match up well. That could just be a coincidence. But to have two unusual double-humped curves that match up well is highly unlikely unless there really is an association.
http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-dru...lowest-century

Check Rick's study...

http://www.ricknevin.com/uploads/USA...Record_Low.pdf

Check Rick's site...

http://www.ricknevin.com/

Beating the Drum...

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-dru...crime-linkfest

Cheers

-don

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Kay King

10 years ago

Salon outdid themselves in keyword placement.

All the "highlight topics" get mentioned:

"women" (3 times)
"gun nuts" (4 times)
"big business"
gun control (twice)
NRA

All that in just 9 points - impressive.

Seriously, what that "article" does is flog a viewpoint on a contentious issue - with no regard for fact. Those who visit that site may go away to spread the word about "increased gun violence"...a fallacy.

It's why all of us (myself included) need to vet the facts - maybe especially when they tell us what we want to hear.

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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Salon outdid themselves in keyword placement.

All the "highlight topics" get mentioned:

"women" (3 times)
"gun nuts" (4 times)
"big business"
gun control (twice)
NRA

All that in just 9 points - impressive.

Seriously, what that "article" does is flog a viewpoint on a contentious issue - with no regard for fact. Those who visit that site may go away to spread the word about "increased gun violence"...a fallacy.

It's why all of us (myself included) need to vet the facts - maybe especially when they tell us what we want to hear.

That should be carved in stone, and posted at the beginning of every "News" show.

That trap that we all tend to fall into, is accepting whatever supports our point of view...without critical thinking. No matter what side we pick.

And the article could have been far more convincing without the obvious bias..... whether the points presented are accurate or not.

Originally Posted by Joe Mobley

It seems that the extremes of almost any viewpoint has little regard for the facts.

Joe Mobley

It's because it's only at the extremes that real passions lie. And passion is much more powerful that critical thinking. And it's at the extremes that name calling and "Buzzwords" replace thinking.

By the way, That's where the fights are, at the extremes. The 1% at one end...is fighting the 1% at the other end. Most of us get along pretty well.

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Dennis Gaskill 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

It seems that if you want to get your daily dose of "Nuts", you can either go far left or far right. Take your pick.

A.M.E.N.

Originally Posted by Kay King

It's why all of us (myself included) need to vet the facts - maybe especially when they tell us what we want to hear.

That assumes people want to know the truth. Some do, some would rather use whatever they find to promote their own beliefs - that's easier than changing them.

That's not directed to anyone specifically. It's just the way a vast number of people are.
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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

9 signs America’s gun obsession is getting worse - Salon.com

TL; I'm not a gun enthusiast. In fact, I'd be perfectly happy if handguns were outlawed.

But this article was one of the most biased pieces of garbage I've read in a while..... And I watch FOX "News"...and I sell for a living...so I'm an expert on bias BS.

Mass shootings are becoming more common. But total shootings are way down.

It seems that if you want to get your daily dose of "Nuts", you can either go far left or far right. Take your pick.

Originally Posted by ForumGuru

Check this out...junk science?

» blog_lead_homicide_2013 | OTB | Online Journal of Politics and Foreign Affairs

Cheers

-don

You may be onto something. But there are hundreds of things that will track that way, that have no correlation at all. This isn't proof. Although it's probably accurate.

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ForumGuru

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

You may be onto something.

Rick Nevin has been doing studies for years on the effects of lead in our society that many find quite convincing. Rick was a consultant for the US Department of Housing and Urban Development back in 1994 working on the costs and benefits of removing lead paint from old homes.

The study that article was based on --> USA Murder Rate at Historic Record Low

http://www.ricknevin.com/uploads/USA...Record_Low.pdf

Rick's site...

Home

You want a ton of supporting data, studies, working papers and reports? Then read on...

Lead Poisoning and the Bell Curve

http://www.ricknevin.com/uploads/Nev...Bell_Curve.pdf

Lead Paint and the Baseline Crime Rate

http://www.ricknevin.com/uploads/Lea...Crime_Rate.pdf

The Answer is Lead Poisoning

http://www.ricknevin.com/uploads/The..._Poisoning.pdf

Understanding International Crime Trends:The Legacy of Preschool Lead Exposure

http://www.ricknevin.com/uploads/Nev...Manuscript.pdf

Trends in Preschool Lead Exposure, Mental Retardation, and Scholastic Achievement: Association or Causation?

http://www.ricknevin.com/uploads/Nev...Manuscript.pdf

How Lead Exposure Relates to Temporal Changes in IQ, Violent Crime, and Unwed Pregnancy

http://www.ricknevin.com/uploads/Nev...Manuscript.pdf

Lead and Crime: Why this correlation does mean causation

http://www.ricknevin.com/uploads/Lea..._Causation.pdf

If you want more --> Beating the Drum

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-dru...crime-linkfest

We know UCLA and others want to buy it, or are buying it...

Recent studies suggest these declines in cognitive outcomes often persist long after the source of exposure has been removed. Perhaps even more disturbing, treatment of children with chelation therapy who have blood lead levels between 25 and 44 µg/dL does not significantly improve their cognitive outcomes later in life compared to children who received no chelation therapy but simply had the source of exposure removed. In addition, studies suggest individuals who suffer from chronic lead poisoning during early childhood are more likely to behave violently and engage in criminal behavior later in life.

http://www.environment.ucla.edu/repo...ticle3772.html

Cheers

-don

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Joe Mobley 10 years ago

It seems that the extremes of almost any viewpoint has little regard for the facts.

Joe Mobley

Originally Posted by Kay King

Seriously, what that "article" does is flog a viewpoint on a contentious issue - with no regard for fact.

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

It seems that if you want to get your daily dose of "Nuts", you can either go far left or far right. Take your pick.
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TLTheLiberator

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

TL; I'm not a gun enthusiast. In fact, I'd be perfectly happy if handguns were outlawed.

But this article was one of the most biased pieces of garbage I've read in a while..... And I watch FOX "News"...and I sell for a living...so I'm an expert on bias BS.

Mass shootings are becoming more common. But total shootings are way down.

It seems that if you want to get your daily dose of "Nuts", you can either go far left or far right. Take your pick.

You may be onto something. But there are hundreds of things that will track that way, that have no correlation at all. This isn't proof. Although it's probably accurate.

Can someone be biased and also be factual?

- OK, total gun deaths may be down but mass shootings and school shootings are up and that seems like its going to be the new norm.

Is that going to be one a week or so from now on?

I also say people walking around in public with automatic weapons is not a good thing but there are many folks in here who differ and IMHO, that is simply a matter of opinion.

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

Can someone be biased and also be factual?

- OK, total gun deaths may be down but mass shootings and school shootings are up and that seems like its going to be the new norm.

Is that going to be one a week or so from now on?

I also say people walking around in public with automatic weapons is not a good thing but there are many folks in here who differ and IMHO, that is simply a matter of opinion.

Why don't people try to figure out what caused the PROBLEMS! Getting rid of tools will NOT prevent the killings. If we get rid of all the tools that can be used, the US would be the most backwards nation EVER in the last 2+ MILLENIA on the planet!

Steve

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SteveJohnson

10 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

Can someone be biased and also be factual?

- OK, total gun deaths may be down but mass shootings and school shootings are up and that seems like its going to be the new norm.

Is that going to be one a week or so from now on?

I also say people walking around in public with automatic weapons is not a good thing but there are many folks in here who differ and IMHO, that is simply a matter of opinion.

2012/2013 school year was an anomaly in the overall downward trend of 'school shootings':
UPDATED information on K-12 and University School Shootings Deaths: The number of deaths has been declining over time - Crime Prevention Research Center

Likewise with 'mass shootings' - no more now than there were 30 years ago: Department of Awful Statistics: Are Mass Shootings Really On the Rise? - The Daily Beast

I would also agree that people walking around with automatic weapons is not a good thing.

I don't know that I've ever heard of anyone walking around with one though, at least not since the 1920's.

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ForumGuru

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

I also say people walking around in public with automatic weapons is not a good thing but there are many folks in here who differ and IMHO, that is simply a matter of opinion.

We rarely ever see fully automatic weapons on the streets...what we do see are semi-automatics. I don't know of anyone that advocates for fully automatic weapons to be carried on the streets.

Originally Posted by SteveJohnson

I don't know that I've ever heard of anyone walking around with one though, at least not since the 1920's.

Agreed...we very rarely see fully automatic weapons on the streets.

I do remember watching these these two nutjobs back in '97. Bank robbers Phillips and Mătăsăreanu had illegally modified Norinco Type 56 S1s and a Sporter into full autos.

North Hollywood shootout - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://prezi.com/j_oshxdox-zx/copy-o...wood-shootout/

Phillips used the following firearms in order:

A Norinco Type 56 Sporter semiautomatic rifle converted to fire automatically with 75- to 100-round drum magazines and 30-round box magazines
A Heckler & Koch M91A3 semiautomatic rifle
A Norinco Type 56 S1 semiautomatic rifle converted to fire automatically with 75- to 100-round drum magazines and 30-round box magazines
A 9mm Beretta Model 92FS semiautomatic pistol

Mătăsăreanu used the following firearms in order:

A Norinco Type 56 Sporter semiautomatic rifle converted to fire automatically with 75- to 100-round drum magazines and 30-round box magazines
A Bushmaster XM15 E2S "Dissipator" semiautomatic rifle heavily modified into a selective-fire weapon firing from two 100-round "Beta Magazines"

http://criminalminds.wikia.com/wiki/...83s%C4%83reanu

North Hollywood Bank Shootout_February 28, 1997 -...

You can hear some of the automatic fire in this overlay...

North Hollywood Shootout: Telemundo 52 Ground...

Cheers

-don

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TLTheLiberator

10 years ago

Originally Posted by SteveJohnson

2012/2013 school year was an anomaly in the overall downward trend of 'school shootings':
UPDATED information on K-12 and University School Shootings Deaths: The number of deaths has been declining over time - Crime Prevention Research Center

Likewise with 'mass shootings' - no more now than there were 30 years ago: Department of Awful Statistics: Are Mass Shootings Really On the Rise? - The Daily Beast

I would also agree that people walking around with automatic weapons is not a good thing.

I don't know that I've ever heard of anyone walking around with one though, at least not since the 1920's.

I stand corrected on the auto verses semi-automatic.

I hope this recent trend in mass shootings is an anomaly and not the new norm.

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David Maschke 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

It seems that if you want to get your daily dose of "Nuts", you can either go far left or far right. Take your pick.

Next time you walk, and you're on a collision course with a wall, don't make a left or right. Going in the same direction without thinking because you have it all worked out in your head is by far the best course of action.

Myself, I'll keep my eyes open and my brain thinking without fear of the name calling.
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seasoned

10 years ago

Frankly, the idea of lead and attacks having a correlation is understandable. Lead exposure DOES cause the type of anger and thinking that happens with gangsters. OLD tenement buildings are probably more likely to be affected.

On an episode of "forensic files" I watched. YEAH, a TV series, but of REAL cases! A child DIED!!!!!!! They tracked it down to LEAD ingestion! It took them long enough, but they found out what happened. She was an illegal immigrant and had been starving and wasn't well cared for. Paint was pealing from the front porch, and she found that it was sweet and started eating it. It had LEAD in it.

Had she NOT died, she would have had the nervous system damage that leads to criminal behavior.

Did my father or mother have a gun? NOPE! I have only known a few that let it be known THEY had guns. FEW are "obsessed" with guns. EVERYONE reading this post is likely within 100 feet,and possibly within 20 feet, of a knife. MOST have likely had a knife in their household. MANY may use one EVERY DAY! Are they OBSESSED with the knives?

Steve

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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Had she NOT died, she would have had the nervous system damage that leads to criminal behavior.

Why does nervous system damage lead to criminal behavior? It can lead to confusion, epilepsy, memory loss, loss of motor control......

But I would need some direct proof (I shouldn't have said that

) to believe that a damaged nervous system means criminal behavior.

Do most criminals have damaged nerves? Do Alzheimer patients turn to crime? How about people with Lou Gehrig disease? They have nerve damage.

Originally Posted by seasoned

MOST have likely had a knife in their household. MANY may use one EVERY DAY! Are they OBSESSED with the knives?

Steve

Steve; If they have 100 knives, think about knives all day, spend time with other knife enthusiasts...subscribe to "Knives Are Beautiful" magazine, attend knife swaps, join the "American Knife Association", post on Knife blogs and forums, carry a knife in public for no reason....and believe that the President (or any "they") is trying to take away their knives..then yes, they are obsessed.

If they cut fish with the knife, wash it, and put it back into the drawer...then no, they aren't obsessed.

You need a better argument.

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ForumGuru

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Why does nervous system damage lead to criminal behavior? It can lead to confusion, epilepsy, memory loss, loss of motor control......

But I would need some direct proof (I shouldn't have said that

) to believe that a damaged nervous system means criminal behavior.

Do most criminals have damaged nerves? Do Alzheimer patients turn to crime? How about people with Lou Gehrig disease? They have nerve damage.

For starters we can focus on cognition...

If you get time to read the hundreds of pages I have linked of Nevin's studies then you may develop a better understanding of how lead exposure has negatively affected our society. If you don't have the time to read the studies it's no skin off my back.

For one thing --> lead exposure can to lower IQ, and lower IQ can lead to more violent behavior among many other things that could be considered detrimental to our society.

Social Behavior Associated with IQ
Although data on yearly changes in IQ are unavailable, temporal data are available for specific types of social behavior associated with lower IQ scores. Herrnstein and Murray, in their controversial book The Bell Curve, cite data showing that individuals with lower IQ levels account for a disproportionate share of violent crime and unwed births. Needleman and colleagues (1996) have also shown that higher bone lead levels are associated with an increase in aggressive and delinquent behavior among boys ages 7 to 10 with similar IQ levels.

http://www.ricknevin.com/uploads/Nev...Manuscript.pdf

An increase in blood lead from 1 to 10 mcg/dl (micrograms of lead per deciliter of blood) is associated with a loss of 7.4 IQ points. (Canfield et al. 2003) Another one-third IQ point is lost per mcg/dl increase from 10 to 15 mcg/dl, and one-quarter IQ point lost per mcg/dl over 15 mcg/dl. (Schwartz 1994) Therefore, blood lead over 20 mcg/dl can lower IQ to less than 90 among children who would have had average IQ of 100, and blood lead over 40 mcg/dl can lower IQ to less than 75 for children who would have had IQ of 90 (Figure 2). When large scale blood lead screening began in many USA cities around 1970, 25% of city children tested had blood lead over 40 mcg/dl. (Gilsinn, 1972) In addition to reducing IQ, preschool lead exposure is directly associated with an increased risk of violent and delinquent behavior.
(Denno, 1990; Dietrich et al., 2001; Needleman et al., 1996; 2003; Wright et al., 2008)

http://www.ricknevin.com/uploads/Nev...Bell_Curve.pdf

It's hard to find the evidence or proof if you don't look at the studies and/or do the research.

In 1976, the average child in the United States had a blood lead level of approximately 16 µg/dL, suggesting a person who grew up in the United States in the 1970’s (including the author) was exposed to lead levels currently considered to be unacceptable. Although many of us have gone on to conduct successful and rewarding lives despite this exposure, it is important to note the most pronounced impacts of this exposure are likely to have been felt by those individuals whose IQ or neurological development was already marginal.

http://www.environment.ucla.edu/repo...ticle3772.html

Individual and Group IQ Predict Inmate Violence - Brie Diamond⁎, Robert G. Morris, J.C. Barnes
University of Texas at Dallas, United States

http://libtreasures.utdallas.edu/jsp...telligence.pdf

In addition, a University of Pittsburgh study found that juvenile offenders had a much higher concentration of lead in their bones compared to their counterparts who were not in trouble with the law.

Damaging Effects on Young Children

"Lead impairs or destroys normal functions of brain tissue, of nerve cells, of the developing brain," said Dr. John Rosen, of The Children's Hospital at Montefiore in Bronx, N.Y. "And the developing brain in young children is extremely susceptible."

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/AmericanFa...ory?id=125121&

Dr. Herbert Needleman submitted a famous landmark report to the New England Journal of Medicine about 35 years ago and in that report he stated.

Lead is a brain poison that interferes with the ability to restrain impulses. It's a life experience which gets into biology and increases a child's risk for doing bad things.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/...ere-poisonous/

Cheers

-don

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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

Originally Posted by ForumGuru

It's hard to find the evidence or proof if you don't look at the studies and/or do the research.

To be frank, I don't do the research, because you can't research every single thing someone claims. I have a business to run.

But; " In addition to reducing IQ, preschool lead exposure is directly associated with an increased risk of violent and delinquent behavior. " isn't proof.

What you are delivering is strong evidence that lead lowers IQ, and causes damage.

What I'm not seeing (in a very casual glance) is a direct correlation between lead paint and crime. The closest I can see is that people with low IQs have impulse control problems. And that can be related to crime. But I see no direct evidence. That doesn't mean direct evidence doesn't exist, only that your examples don't provide it. In fact, I suspect that it does exist.

I'm reading the posts like this (This is an analogy, not real);

People who eat lots of ice cream get obese...and...
Obese people tend to snore, and..
Therefore, eating ice cream causes snoring.

OR

Smoking causes cancer....
Some people with cancer go bankrupt...
Does cancer cause bankruptcy? In a way, I suppose.

OR

Smoking costs money.
Lack of money causes some people to resort to crime...
so....
Smoking causes criminal behavior. Kind of.

Not directly. But it all relates. Anyway, how did we get from "guns" to paint to lead to mental illness?

OH, what a tangled web we weave.

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ForumGuru

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

To be frank, I don't do the research, because you can't research every single thing someone claims. I have a business to run.

Good for you...but you do seem to have plenty of time to joke around here on the forum. Obviously you also have the time to challenge or disagree with published studies and accepted research without citing any evidence on your positions.

But; " In addition to reducing IQ, preschool lead exposure is directly associated with an increased risk of violent and delinquent behavior. " isn't proof.

If you can't make the connection, or take the time to research the subject, than you will probably never believe. Your definition of proof is not proof. Your definition of proof seems to be 100% unadulterated guesswork.

What you are delivering is strong evidence that lead lowers IQ, and causes damage.

Which leads to more crime, more violent crime etc. Not to mention it's obvious you did not come close to reading the majority of other information provided in the studies.

What I'm not seeing (in a very casual glance) is a direct correlation between lead paint and crime.

Obviously you overlooked it with your casual glance! Secondarily, we are not talking just paint! Do you not remember lead in gasoline? Have you heard of atmospheric emissions?

The closest I can see is that people with low IQs have impulse control problems.

And obviously they are more apt to commit crimes...that fact has long been known.

And that can be related to crime

It is.

But I see no direct evidence.

I am sorry you decided not to read the highly regarded studies and other information. If you don't want to put 2 and 2 together then that's your problem, not mine. I have linked the premiere research that has been done and if you don't take the time to read it how could you possibly see it?

That doesn't mean direct evidence doesn't exist, only that your examples don't provide it. In fact, I suspect that it does exist.

I provided hundreds of pages of research and you read very few of them...it's no wonder you can't see the "proof".

I'm reading the posts like this (This is an analogy, not real);

Too bad you won't take the time to read the studies.

People who eat lots of ice cream get obese...and...Obese people tend to snore, and..Therefore, eating ice cream causes snoring. OR - Smoking causes cancer....Some people with cancer go bankrupt...Does cancer cause bankruptcy? In a way, I suppose - OR Smoking costs money. Lack of money causes some people to resort to crime...so....Smoking causes criminal behavior. Kind of.

You aren't even in the same ballpark with those analogies. Good grief! That's exactly why you needed to read the papers on lead so you can understand the depth of the studies, the underlying statistics of the studies, and breadth of studies. Apparently you may not have a clue on the subject of lead and it's effects on the brain. Obviously you have not read the research, and it's obvious that you have ignored the massive amount correlation and documentation. Your analogies are so far off they should be considered offensive to anyone with half a brain.

Not directly. But it all relates. Anyway, how did we get from "guns" to paint to lead to mental illness?

Because the OP posted an article that made little sense.

OH, what a tangled web we weave.

You like weaving and joking...I prefer data, facts and a discussion of the data an facts. If you don't know the facts or research the data then you can't possibly carry on an intelligent or meaningful discussion on the subject.

How did we get to lead? The OP posted an article which stated this...

That suggests guns aren’t going to be a top issue in those 2014 campaigns, underscoring how hard it is to convince Congress to get real about the epidemic of gun violence in America.

I refuted the "epidemic" nonsense with fact, and then posted some studies on what could have contributed to the decline in gun violence.

I'm so sorry to hear you could not make that connection. It's easier to make connections and valid arguments and conclusions when you actually read some of the material.

Quick scanning hundreds of pages of research and pretending you don't see it is laughable at best.

Have a good time with your business of joking around in the forum.

Lead and Crime: Why this correlation does mean causation

Strength: The strength of the relationship between lead exposure and crime is reflected
in the very high statistical significance of lead exposure and in the large percent of crime
rate variation explained by blood lead trends. Across decades when crime rates varied by
several orders of magnitude, earlier preschool blood lead trends explained:

 63% to 93% of variation in index crime rates in every one of nine nations examined;
 91% to 93% of variation in aggravated assault rates in the USA and Britain;
 84% to 90% of variation in rape rates in the USA and Britain;
 70% to 89% of variation in robbery rates in the USA, Britain, Canada, Australia, West
Germany, and New Zealand;
 65% to 91% of variation in burglary rates in the USA, Britain, Canada, Australia, West
Germany, New Zealand, and France.

http://www.ricknevin.com/uploads/Lea..._Causation.pdf

Some 30 years ago, scientists in Boston discovered that children exposed to lead from gasoline exhausts, dust and paint became impulsive, aggressive and had trouble learning in school.

Now scientists report that when those children grew up, they unleashed a wave of crime on the country.

The study by Howard W. Mielke of Tulane University and Sammy Zahran of Colorado State University in Ft. Collins, paints a picture of tens of thousands of young people -- mainly men -- who committed crimes under the influence of a ubiquitous toxic substance that permeated the air, dust and houses where they were brought up.

"...exposure to Pb (lead) alters neurotransmitter and hormonal systems and may therefore generate aggressive and violent behavior," said Mielke and Zahran in their article, entitled "The urban rise and fall of air lead (Pb) and the latent surge and retreat of societal violence."

Ben Barber: Lead Poisoning Linked to Violence

The urban rise and fall of air lead (Pb) and the latent surge and retreat of societal violence

Abstract
We evaluate air Pb emissions and latent aggravated assault behavior at the scale of the city. We accomplish this by regressing annual Federal Bureau of Investigation aggravated assault rate records against the rise and fall of annual vehicle Pb emissions in Chicago (Illinois), Indianapolis (Indiana), Minneapolis (Minnesota), San Diego (California), Atlanta (Georgia), and New Orleans (Louisiana). Other things held equal, a 1% increase in tonnages of air Pb released 22 years prior raises the present period aggravated assault rate by 0.46% (95% CI, 0.28 to 0.64). Overall our model explains 90% of the variation in aggravated assault across the cities examined. In the case of New Orleans, 85% of temporal variation in the aggravated assault rate is explained by the annual rise and fall of air Pb (total = 10,179 metric tons) released on the population of New Orleans 22 years earlier. For every metric ton of Pb released 22 years prior, a latent increase of 1.59 (95% CI, 1.36 to 1.83, p < 0.001) aggravated assaults per 100,000 were reported. Vehicles consuming fuel containing Pb additives contributed much larger quantities of Pb dust than generally recognized. Our findings along with others predict that prevention of children's lead exposure from lead dust now will realize numerous societal benefits two decades into the future, including lower rates of aggravated assault.

The urban rise and fall of air lead (Pb) and the latent surge and retreat of societal violence

Lead dust can cause permanent damage to sections of the brain that control mood regulation and judgment. Lead dust is known to alter neurotransmitters and hormonal systems and therefore can generate violent behavior. Low self-control, which is a characteristic that is linked with children who have been exposed to lead, can be a predictor of criminal behavior.

How Lead Exposure Damages the Brain: New Research Fills in the Picture | Environmental Health Sciences | Environmental Health Sciences | Mailman School

How Lead Exposure Damages the Brain: New Research Fills in the Picture

Effective brain function depends on the efficient signaling from one neuron to the next, a lightning-fast process that requires a quick release of neurotransmitters at synapses. Exposure to lead during early childhood and even later in life has long been known to affect the release of these critical neurotransmitters.

<snip>

Specifically, it produces a loss of the proteins synaptophysin and synaptobrevin. It also increases the number of pre-synaptic contact sites, but these sites appear to be missing these key proteins. His work suggests that these changes are mediated by the inhibition of the N-methyl-D-aspartate receptor (NMDAR), disrupting the release of the trans-synaptic signaling neurotrophin, brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF).

Boston's Children's Hospital first noted increased aggressive behavior 1943, when doctors first noted a tendency toward "cruel impulsive behavior" and "irritability" in children exposed to lead

Lead dust is linked to violence

The new findings are published in the journal Environment International by Mielke, a research professor in the Department of Pharmacology at the Tulane University School of Medicine, and demographer Sammy Zahran at the Center for Disaster and Risk Analysis at Colorado State University.  

<snip>

“Children are extremely sensitive to lead dust, and lead exposure has latent neuroanatomical effects that severely impact future societal behavior and welfare,” says Mielke. “Up to 90 per cent of the variation in aggravated assault across the cities is explained by the amount of lead dust released 22 years earlier.

http://tulane.edu/news/newwave/041712_lead.cfm

Cheers

-don

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Why does nervous system damage lead to criminal behavior? It can lead to confusion, epilepsy, memory loss, loss of motor control......

But I would need some direct proof (I shouldn't have said that

) to believe that a damaged nervous system means criminal behavior

Do most criminals have damaged nerves? Do Alzheimer patients turn to crime? How about people with Lou Gehrig disease? They have nerve damage.

The type caused by LEAD can. As for alzheimers? It turns out they they can be psychotic and paranoid. Obviously, the facilities to do long, or even intermediate, term planning aren't there.

Parkinsins and the like are totally different. That is simply nerve damage.

Steve; If they have 100 knives, think about knives all day, spend time with other knife enthusiasts...subscribe to "Knives Are Beautiful" magazine, attend knife swaps, join the "American Knife Association", post on Knife blogs and forums, carry a knife in public for no reason.

Isn't exactly obsession, though I never said there aren't SOME that are. As forcarrying a knife in public for no reason? Do you have ANY idea how often they are used? It must be a LOT since they are in almost every home WORLDWIDE!!!!!!! And SOMEONE realized there was a reason to have precise cuts through two opposing knives on a fulcrum or pivot. So we have shears, scissors, etc....

And MANY Americans, with guns, DON'T do all this!

and believe that the President (or any "they") is trying to take away their knives

AGAIN, NOT OBSESSION! BUT, if you mean GUNS, it means they have ears and a brain!

If they cut fish with the knife, wash it, and put it back into the drawer...then no, they aren't obsessed.

You need a better argument.

NOPE! YOU DO!

Steve

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Claude Whitacre 10 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

NOPE! YOU DO!

Steve

NO! You Do! So THERE! ( I wonder how long we can keep this up?)

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

Can someone be biased and also be factual?

Sure. And someone (I don't mean you) can be a jerk, and be right...or be a perfectly reasonable person...and be completely wrong.

But the article? It was written with such a partisan attitude, that I couldn't hear what it was saying.

I just quoted TL and Steve in the same post. I'm sure there is a Forum rule against that. It doesn't feel natural.
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- ThomM 10 years ago
  
  I would HOPE that Glyphosate is limited.
  
  You would think so.
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  Are EPA approved levels of glyphosate residue in our foods too high? | Communities Digital News
  
  Weed-Whacking Herbicide Proves Deadly to Human Cells - Scientific American
  
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SteveJohnson

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Steve; If they have 100 knives, think about knives all day, spend time with other knife enthusiasts...subscribe to "Knives Are Beautiful" magazine, attend knife swaps, join the "American Knife Association", post on Knife blogs and forums, carry a knife in public for no reason....and believe that the President (or any "they") is trying to take away their knives..then yes, they are obsessed.

If they cut fish with the knife, wash it, and put it back into the drawer...then no, they aren't obsessed.

You need a better argument.

Obsession rears its ugly head in many forms:

Steve; If they have 100 wives, think about wives all day, spend time with other wife enthusiasts...subscribe to "Wives Are Beautiful" magazine, attend wife swaps, join the "American Wife Association", post on wife blogs and forums, carry a wife in public for no reason....and believe that the President (or any "they") is trying to take away their wives..then yes, they are obsessed.

If they fish with the wife, wash it, and put it back into the drawer...then no, they aren't obsessed.

Edit: '100 wives' is a Utah and Idaho thing, I think. Still...

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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

Originally Posted by SteveJohnson

Obsession rears its ugly head in many forms:

Steve; If they have 1000 comic books, think about comic books all day, spend time with other comic books enthusiasts...subscribe to "Comic Books Are Beautiful" magazine, attend swaps, join the "American Comic Book Association", post on comic books blogs and forums, carry a stack of comic books in public for no reason....and believe that the President (or any "they") is trying to take away their comic books ..then yes, they are obsessed.

If they buy comic books, read them, and put it back into the drawer...then no, they aren't obsessed.

Fixed that for you. I think we just invented the Universal Obsession Test Template.

Originally Posted by seasoned

Why don't people try to figure out what caused the PROBLEMS! Getting rid of tools will NOT prevent the killings. If we get rid of all the tools that can be used, the US would be the most backwards nation EVER in the last 2+ MILLENIA on the planet!

Steve

And getting rid of all gardening equipment, won't cut down on the number of gardens. Wait, it probably will.

And getting rid of all the fishing nets won't cut down on the number of fish caught. Wait, I think it will.

You need a better argument.

Originally Posted by seasoned

NOPE! YOU DO!

Steve

(took care of that for you)

Originally Posted by seasoned

If we get rid of all the tools that can be used, the US would be the most backwards nation EVER in the last 2+ MILLENIA on the planet!

Steve

Yes, TL was suggesting we get rid off all the tools, ever made, for any purpose....which will cause a National Dark Ages...and will bring back Mordor The Evil. (I think I made that up)

Sorry, I don't really care about the debate...or whatever we are doing here...I'm just enjoying myself.

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Yes, TL was suggesting we get rid off all the tools, ever made, for any purpose....which will cause a National Dark Ages...and will bring back Mordor The Evil. (I think I made that up)

Sorry, I don't really care about the debate...or whatever we are doing here...I'm just enjoying myself.

He IS!

POWER? Well, we can't have any machines we can't make, or that will have sharp parts, etc....

SAWS? WEAPON!
KNIVES? WEAPON!
GAS, ALCOHOL, COAL, ETC....? WEAPON!

DRILLS? WEAPON!
NEEDLES? WEAPON!
EXPLOSIVES? WEAPON!

BTW This ALSO means no artificial fertilizers!

Well, you get the point!

If we are going to ban the tool(guns) we might as well ban all others. BESIDES, they get far harder to make if you are 100% green! Did YOU know a spark makes OZONE? OZONE is an IRRITANT!

And IMAGINE! Over 99% of ALL vehicles would be GONE! There would be NONE using COAL, GAS,kerosine, ALCOHOL, ATOMIC, LPG, or PROPANE. That ALSO means NO JETS! FORGET about HEATING your homes! HECK, FORGET about COOLING them!

WHO needs MORDOR!?!?!?!? PUTIN could wait until AMMO is all but exhausted, and machinery is in disuse, and walk on with 19th century technology and take over the US!

Steve

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HeySal

10 years ago

Don. It's not just lead. It's also fluoride, mercury, glysophate, aspartame, psychotropic drugs and a host of other metals and chemicals that pass the blood brain barrier, along with chemicals. Most people's pineal glands are so calcified they don't even work anymore.

America is being poisoned. It's as simple as that. If the thousands of toxins in your environment don't drive you crazy, they will simply cause disease.

Why are people still harping on assault rifles? Almost twice as many people are killed by stabbings yearly -- and most deaths due to assault rifles are self defense. So why do people want them gone? Simple - because of the propaganda mill that the WH is putting out to make people want gun control.

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ForumGuru

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Don. It's not just lead. It's also fluoride, mercury, glysophate, aspartame, psychotropic drugs and a host of other metals and chemicals that pass the blood brain barrier, along with chemicals. Most people's pineal glands are so calcified they don't even work anymore.

America is being poisoned. It's as simple as that. If the thousands of toxins in your environment don't drive you crazy, they will simply cause disease.

I get your drift but you don't have to explain to me that we are being harmed by stuff other than lead...of course we have been and still are being harmed by all sorts of stuff.

Life is a trade-off of sorts...and to be honest, I went to Nuke School to learn how to operate a nuclear reactor...and you know what? Radiation can kill you --> and it can save you...much like many other things in life.

Do I use products with aspartame? Nope, I try to avoid them. Do I have a choice? Yup. Sure some chemicals we do not have much of a choice on but such is life.

The reason I am focused on lead in this thread is a ton of studies and research has already been done that proves lead exposure can inhibit proper cognitive function --> which ultimately can lead to violent crime, including gun crime.

Feel free to cite some studies that directly relate fluoride and aspartame to violence and I will be happy to review them. If you open a thread on the overprescription of antipsychotics, anti-depressants and anti-obsessive agents I will be happy to take a look.

Cheers

-don

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Don. It's not just lead. It's also fluoride, mercury, glysophate, aspartame, psychotropic drugs and a host of other metals and chemicals that pass the blood brain barrier, along with chemicals. Most people's pineal glands are so calcified they don't even work anymore.

America is being poisoned. It's as simple as that. If the thousands of toxins in your environment don't drive you crazy, they will simply cause disease.

Why are people still harping on assault rifles? Almost twice as many people are killed by stabbings yearly -- and most deaths due to assault rifles are self defense. So why do people want them gone? Simple - because of the propaganda mill that the WH is putting out to make people want gun control.

Well, being in areas that were so inundated, etc.... I would have to say that flouride and aspartame aren't THAT bad. OH, I HATE THEM! They ARE poisons! But they alone won't cause this violence. Mercury is limited, and I would HOPE that Glyphosate is limited. Of course psychotropic drugs are BAD! Just today, I saw a show where a cop tried to make it sound like a psychiatrists drugs would "make a person well". She later yelled when the person said she went off them because she thought she was better.

Seriously! The drugs should be used as a short term fix at best. Many are treated that should never be. And those that "should be" treated should probably be examined to see WHY they need to be treated. Let's start removing the CAUSES!

It is SAD, and ironic, that the need for this country was decided because of an excessive tax that started a TEA PARTY that was to protest high taxes. Boston Tea Party - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia That group LATER had to scramble to get their guns, that the government was coming to confiscate. Revere and Dawes warn of British attack — History.com This Day in History — 4/18/1775

Do schools even TEACH about that anymore? But TODAY, people bad mouth the tea party, which is really the SAME thing! And they LAUGH at the idea of confiscation which was tried before!

Steve

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HeySal

10 years ago

Don - I "get" you. I'd be the last person to argue the studies on lead. I also "get" you that I wandered off your topic a tad.

We already know psychotropic drugs can cause violence, too - that's right on the labels - and some kids don't have a choice. The schools tell people they either drug the kid or they take the kid away.

I might just take a dive into studies on mercury to see what those have to say about mercury/violence connections.

I'll dig a little when I get a chance and see if there's other toxins besides lead and pyschotropics that have had studies of this sort run on them.

BTW - I object to that BS labeling "obsession" for gun owners, too. Come on, get a grip. That's the most biased, inept, blatant attempt at shaping opinion via ad hominem tactics I've ever seen. Go back to high school.

Got to run - it's time for me to get back to my food obsession........er.....I mean eat lunch.

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HeySal

10 years ago

Um.........I didn't know fully automatic weapons are legal - for anyone but police/military. It's SEMI-Automatics that are legal.

Steve (Johnson). You want to see semi-automatics being carried? Go to Succor creek park area during hunting season. Almost everyone there will have one. Conversely, I don't recall ever hearing about ANYONE being shot by one, even accidentally, in that region. I've been there many times during hunting season and never had a bullet come close enough to me to even be concerned about it. I just wear pink or orange and nobody aimed for me. Real simple.

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SteveJohnson

10 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Um.........I didn't know fully automatic weapons are legal - for anyone but police/military. It's SEMI-Automatics that are legal.

Steve (Johnson). You want to see semi-automatics being carried? Go to Succor creek park area during hunting season. Almost everyone there will have one. Conversely, I don't recall ever hearing about ANYONE being shot by one, even accidentally, in that region. I've been there many times during hunting season and never had a bullet come close enough to me to even be concerned about it. I just wear pink or orange and nobody aimed for me. Real simple.

Actually, owning a fully automatic weapon IS legal in the US - as long as it was manufactured or imported before 1986, and you buy a $200 ATF tax stamp.

Good luck trying to find one, though. If you do find a legal one for sale, it'll probably cost $15K - $20K or more.

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Richard Van 10 years ago

Dan's not here so I'll say it and I've always wanted to as well but feel bad I'm swiping Dan's lines.

This won't end well.

On a lighter note and not wanting set off world war three but over here we used to have lead water pipes, we don't any more as it made people ill. I can say with certainty though that crime has increased in the many years since they began moving them, so has population. We don't have guns though, well the criminals do now and they're not hard to get but we have knives, machete's, axe's and let's be honest ash trays, glass's, chairs etc.

Also the Romans had lead pipes as they thought at the time it was a good idea and they all went a bit mad from it. Having said that they didn't have guns, killed each other in abundance anyway and the dick heads in Britain who put the lead pipes in did so almost 2000 years later.

I'll say one thing, we never learn.

Don't mind me either, I'm totally uneducated on American gun culture or deaths from guns or the correlation between lead in paint and gun crime, so probably shouldn't say anything anyway.

Carry on, don't mind me.
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seasoned

10 years ago

People in the US, to a fair degree, feigned ignorance about lead until like the late 1960s-1970s. Several groups of people were found to be affected by lead. At that time, laws were passed to get rid of lead and mitigate existing usage. Lead USED to be in gasoline, paint, etc... NOW, it isn't.

It IS clear that MOST gun owners don't even use a gun in THREATS! And far fewer shoot them. And even in THREATS, many ARE called for! I heard a story a few weeks ago about how a gang hurt some people, and was heading towards a couple. The guy brought out his gun, and they SCRAMMED! So the gun was never even used, and it saved lives!

But lead HAS been shown to adversely affect intelligence in a way that leads to hostile behavior.

Steve

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ThomM

10 years ago

10 Problems Only Gun Control Opponents Understand | Libertarian Girl

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ThomM

10 years ago

But are school shootings really on the rise?
A study by the National Center for Education Statistics suggests that the number of homicides at middle and high schools has steadily declined between 1993 and 2010.
In the 1992-1993 school year, 42 students were killed on campus, compared to 17 homicides during the 2009-2010 school year.
A second study, by the University of Virginia, finds that shootings are so rare that the average school would have to wait 13,870 years before a campus homicide would occur.
These studies strongly suggest that schools are safer now than they were 20 years ago. However, they still do not help with the understanding of why anyone would choose to take the innocent lives of children.

Study: School shooting deaths down from past | News - Home

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renegadeviking

10 years ago

The more illegal immigrants in US, the more gun owners. It's that simple. Issac Newton would agree.

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TLTheLiberator

10 years ago

Missouri Town Discovers People Don't Like Vacationing Around People Openly Carrying Firearms | ThinkProgress

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seasoned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

Missouri Town Discovers People Don't Like Vacationing Around People Openly Carrying Firearms | ThinkProgress

SO WHAT!?!?!?!? I might not EITHER! But if they are nice decent people, I say their right to the gun TRUMPS my right to feel that nobody near me has a gun.

Did YOU know that many say there is a spider within 6 feet of you RIGHT NOW!?!?!!?!?!? IT'S TRUE! And spiders are about the only creatures that could inhabit EVERY INCH of the ENTIRE ~2586sf of that space! SCARY, HUH!?!?!? And the spider MIGHT even have a 50/50 chance of being poisonous in some respect!

Now I am OK with spiders. I will let most scurry along their way. I do that because I figure they have enough of a right to live that I shouldn't just kill them. YEAH, they help out, and aren't a nuisance, but I can do without the startling, or the webs. Shouldn't gun owners be giving the same consideration?

Steve
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SteveJohnson 10 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

Missouri Town Discovers People Don't Like Vacationing Around People Openly Carrying Firearms | ThinkProgress

In other news today, water is still wet.
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- ThomM 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by SteveJohnson
  
  In other news today, water is still wet.
  
  I liked the picture they used to accompany the article.
  Looks more like Mexico then Missouri.
  
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TLTheLiberator

10 years ago

I just saw this and couldn't resist...

Don’t shred on me: TX music lovers mock gun enthusiasts with Open Carry Guitar Rally

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ThomM

10 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

I just saw this and couldn't resist...

Don't shred on me: TX music lovers mock gun enthusiasts with Open Carry Guitar Rally

If you read the article, it makes the headline rather misleading.

Kooda suggested the rally on Facebook as a light-hearted response to gun-rights activists openly carrying firearms around Texas and elsewhere, photographing themselves inside national retail and restaurant chains to suggest corporate endorsement.
"I'm not anti-gun at all," the musician told KTVT-TV. "I'm a fifth-generation Texas veteran. I have guns, (but) leave them at home. You have rights -- you just don't have to express them all the time in people's faces."

Gun-rights supporters say they aren't offended.
"They can bear their guitars and I'll bear my guns -- it's all good," said Kory Watkins, of Open Carry Tarrant County, standing outside a strip mall with a rifle slung over his shoulder. "It's freedom of speech, doing what's within their rights -- and I support that."
A guitar rally participant said he plans to take part to highlight safety concerns over the promiscuous display of firearms in public.
"Whether a gun rights advocate or a gun control advocate, or even if you don't really care about it either way, most agree that this is not the way to behave," said participant Bobby Beeman, of Dallas.

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Enfusia 10 years ago

I saw a string jock strap for sale once that would likely give better support than the evidence in that article.

Yes, it would be cool if there were no guns at all and we went back to swords. I mean seriously; when was the last time you ever heard of a drive by beheading?

But alas, we live in a world where if we give up our guns we'll be thinking North Korea is the new Tea Party leader exemplifying freedom.

As a former multiple incursion Marine I have seen full well the good faith and intentions of governments. Never on your life (because it will be) believe that mess. I've seen the results 1st hand and trust me, you don't want to go there.

You think we have an NSA/drone/surveillance problem brewing now?

A disarmed populace is the slave of the armed elitist. Guaranteed!

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- ThomM 10 years ago
  
  But alas, we live in a world where if we give up our guns we'll be thinking North Korea is the new Tea Party leader exemplifying freedom.
  
  The 2 countries in the world that have a gun ban for their citizens are China and North Korea.
  The thing is our govt. doesn't have to ban guns out right to effect a gun ban.
  In New York State you can get a pistol permit for around $75.
  New York City decided they didn't want hand guns there so they raise the fee in the city to almost $400 and you have to renew and repay the fee every 3 or 5 years.
  Making certain features of a gun illegal like pistol grips on rifles or shot guns.
  They can simply regulate guns out of existence, unless you are a criminal which just owning a gun could make you.
  
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TLTheLiberator

10 years ago

With...

- The proliferation of armed militias: From like 200 to at least 600 of them.

- Stand your ground laws and people taking advantage of them.

- A steady flow of mass/school shootings.

- Open Carry.

Check out these OC a-holes on video...

Ohio man arrested after friends parade AR-15s through neighborhood, spouting racial slurs

The headline of this thread is justified.

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ThomM

10 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

With...

- The proliferation of armed militias: From like 200 to at least 600 of them.

- Stand your ground laws and people taking advantage of them.

- A steady flow of mass/school shootings.

- Open Carry.

Check out these OC a-holes on video...

Ohio man arrested after friends parade AR-15s through neighborhood, spouting racial slurs

The headline of this thread is justified.

Not when you look at actual facts.
From a 1999 D.O.J. report.

The majority of militia groups are non-violent and only a small segment of the militias actually commit acts of violence to advance their political goals and beliefs.

About school shootings.

A study by the National Center for Education Statistics suggests that the number of homicides at middle and high schools has steadily declined between 1993 and 2010.
In the 1992-1993 school year, 42 students were killed on campus, compared to 17 homicides during the 2009-2010 school year.
A second study, by the University of Virginia, finds that shootings are so rare that the average school would have to wait 13,870 years before a campus homicide would occur.
These studies strongly suggest that schools are safer now than they were 20 years ago. However, they still do not help with the understanding of why anyone would choose to take the innocent lives of children.

Your comments about stand your ground and open carry are simply based on your own paranoia.

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TLTheLiberator

10 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Not when you look at actual facts.
From a 1999 D.O.J. report.

Your comments about stand your ground and open carry are simply based on your own paranoia.

- But since way back in 1999, and especially since 2009, the number of militia groups has grown 5-6 fold - maybe more...

... so...

...why isn't it reasonable to assume that the number of violent groups have grown along with the movement?

Even if the % are the same as that DOJ report suggests, why wouldn't the number of violent groups in this country have grown along with the increased number of groups?

School and mass shootings:

I love how some folks desperately want to classify a shooting on school grounds as not a exactly a school shooting. That would have been a hoot but it's so sad.

From the link at the top of the thread...

There have been 74 shootings at schools across the U.S. since the Sandy Hook massacre in December 2012, according to Everytown For Gun Safety—which, astoundingly, the pro-gun side claims is an inflated figure.

One pro-gun writer has been waging a Twitter campaign to debunk the Everytown count.

“In what may be the most tortuous sentence ever constructed, he wrote,...

... ‘It’s not a school shooting when someone goes and shoots a specific person on campus.

It’s a shooting that happens to take place at school.”

Believe it or not, CNN has followed this illogic and reported that only 15 of these rampages should be called school shootings.

It seems like we've got a steady flow of school shootings at least while school is in session.

Open Carry & Stand Your Ground:

Are not open carry in all it's wonderful forms and stand your ground new gun related phenomena in America?

Being able to carry a concealed weapon is apparently not enough for some people.

What could be more obsessive regarding guns (especially in this day and age)...

...than a person wanting to walk around sticking their gun up everyone's nose?

IMHO, because of all the above, America’s Gun Obsession Is Getting Worse and denying it is simply ridiculous.

What's next?

- Duels with handguns become legal in some states?

- Shootout games on television and/or pay per view with people really getting shot and killed?

- Ted Nuisance, I mean Nugent runs for POTUS?

- The stars on the American flag are replaced with 50 different types of guns?

- A shootout occurs in congress - with congressional persons?

- Home security systems that shoot first and ask questions later?

Why do I have the feeling that if all the above actually happened, I'll still get the same denial in here from certain folks.

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ThomM

10 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

- But since way back in 1999, and especially since 2009, the number of militia groups has grown 5-6 fold - maybe more...

... so...

...why isn't it reasonable to assume that the number of violent groups have grown along with the movement?

Even if the % are the same as that DOJ report suggests, why wouldn't the number of violent groups in this country have grown along with the increased number of groups?

School and mass shootings:

I love how some folks desperately want to classify a shooting on school grounds as not a exactly a school shooting. That would have been a hoot but it's so sad.

From the link at the top of the thread...

There have been 74 shootings at schools across the U.S. since the Sandy Hook massacre in December 2012, according to Everytown For Gun Safety—which, astoundingly, the pro-gun side claims is an inflated figure.

One pro-gun writer has been waging a Twitter campaign to debunk the Everytown count.

“In what may be the most tortuous sentence ever constructed, he wrote,...

... ‘It’s not a school shooting when someone goes and shoots a specific person on campus.

It’s a shooting that happens to take place at school.”

Believe it or not, CNN has followed this illogic and reported that only 15 of these rampages should be called school shootings.

It seems like we've got a steady flow of school shootings at least while school is in session.

Open Carry & Stand Your Ground:

Are not open carry in all it's wonderful forms and stand your ground new gun related phenomena in America?

Being able to carry a concealed weapon is apparently not enough for some people.

What could be more obsessive regarding guns (especially in this day and age)...

...than a person wanting to walk around sticking their gun up everyone's nose?

IMHO, because of all the above, America’s Gun Obsession Is Getting Worse and denying it is simply ridiculous.

What's next?

- Duels with handguns become legal in some states?

- Shootout games on television and/or pay per view with people really getting shot and killed?

- Ted Nuisance, I mean Nugent runs for POTUS?

- The stars on the American flag are replaced with 50 different types of guns?

- A shootout occurs in congress - with congress persons?

Why do I have the feeling that if all the above actually happened, I'll still get the same denial in here from certain folks.

How many acts of violence have all these militia groups caused? Yes more have sprung up since Obama took office, on the other hand since he has taken office we now have the majority of federal agencies armed and dangerous. The USDA has pulled off armed raids against organic co-ops and people selling raw milk. The EPA, FDA, and BLM have assault vehicles and armed militias of their own that have attacked more people in this country then all the citizen militias combined.
But I wouldn't expect you to understand any of that. Even when a liberal news network brakes ranks and reports the facts instead of your propaganda.
You choose to ignore any facts that don't support your agenda and try to use fear and scare tactics to prove you're right.
Guess what, it's not working.

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ForumGuru

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

- But since way back in 1999, and especially since 2009, the number of militia groups has grown 5-6 fold - maybe more...

... so...

...why isn't it reasonable to assume that the number of violent groups have grown along with the movement?

Not really. How many gang members in Chicago have guns? Which is more dangerous? That's what I thought.

Even if the % are the same as that DOJ report suggests, why wouldn't the number of violent groups in this country have grown along with the increased number of groups?

Look at the DOJ GUN CRIME STATS --> Almost a 100 year low!

School and mass shootings:

I love how some folks desperately want to classify a shooting on school grounds as not a exactly a school shooting. That would have been a hoot but it's so sad.

Take a look where the VAST majority of gun crime exists ---> like Chicago and other inner city, urban and tough areas. You have an obsession with kooks shooting in schools instead of where most of the gun crime occurs --> which is on the streets and in the rough neighborhoods!

From the link at the top of the thread...

There have been 74 shootings at schools across the U.S. since the Sandy Hook massacre in December 2012, according to Everytown For Gun Safety—which, astoundingly, the pro-gun side claims is an inflated figure.

Star talking about the 35-50 murders in Chicago each and every month!

One pro-gun writer has been waging a Twitter campaign to debunk the Everytown count.

“In what may be the most tortuous sentence ever constructed, he wrote,...

... ‘It’s not a school shooting when someone goes and shoots a specific person on campus.

You have an odd obsession with legal guns and gun owners and with rare instances of gun violence instead of the vast majority of gun violence. Why don't you focus on the real problem areas?

It’s a shooting that happens to take place at school.”

Believe it or not, CNN has followed this illogic and reported that only 15 of these rampages should be called school shootings.

Good grief man! I think you are obsessed with legal gun owners and a few kooks! Start focusing on the gangs and the drugs as that is where most of the gun crime exists.

It seems like we've got a steady flow of school shootings at least while school is in session.

Steady flow? That's a joke... Chicago and many other cities have a steady flow of gun violence!

Open Carry & Stand Your Ground:

Are not open carry in all it's wonderful forms and stand your ground new gun related phenomena in America?

Israel allows open carry and why are you obsessed with stand your ground laws? Good grief... Why don't you worry about the real gun carrying problem which is the convicts, thugs, gangsters and drug dealers?

Being able to carry a concealed weapon is apparently not enough for some people.

Good thing you can come to a marketing forum to rail on legal gun owners instead of the convicts, thugs, and gangsters, eh? Wow...why don't you focus your attention where the majority of the gun crime is?

What could be more obsessive regarding guns (especially in this day and age)...

You... You are one of the most obsessed people over legal guns and legal gun owners that I have seen.

...than a person wanting to walk around sticking their gun up everyone's nose?

Why do you insist on sticking your nose in other people's legal business? Why don't you stick your nose where the real vast majority of gun violence exists?

IMHO, because of all the above, America’s Gun Obsession Is Getting Worse and denying it is simply ridiculous.

The liberal obsession with legal gun owners is so bad I think some problem children may need a serious wake up call since gun violence is basically at a 100 year low.

What's next?

- Duels with handguns become legal in some states?

Wow, you do have some whacked out thoughts! How about focusing on taking the gangsters with guns off of the streets!

- Shootout games on television and/or pay per view with people really getting shot and killed?

Wow, maybe you have watched too many scary movies, played too many violent video games, and have been filled with too much BS propaganda! You sure do have an incredible imagination...too bad that's all it is, an imagination.

- Ted Nuisance, I mean Nugent runs for POTUS?

Maybe you need to pass the bill before you read the bill, eh? More liberal nonsense. Stick to Jerry Springer...please.

- The stars on the American flag are replaced with 50 different types of guns?

A liberal starts another gun complaint thread?

- A shootout occurs in congress - with congressional persons?

You must have meant to say another 400 to 500 people are killed in Rahm's town again next year.

- Home security systems that shoot first and ask questions later?

The Pelosi standard again...we need to pass the bill so we know what is in the bill.

Why do I have the feeling that if all the above actually happened, I'll still get the same denial in here from certain folks.

Because you have a strange obsession with guns and legal gun owners.

Start cleaning up the problem cities instead of worrying about legal guns and legal gun owners. Seriously, your nonsensical banter and strange obsession with legal gun owners is starting to worry me!

Cheers

-don

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ForumGuru

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

With...

- The proliferation of armed militias: From like 200 to at least 600 of them.

- Stand your ground laws and people taking advantage of them.

- A steady flow of mass/school shootings.

- Open Carry.

Check out these OC a-holes on video...

Ohio man arrested after friends parade AR-15s through neighborhood, spouting racial slurs

The headline of this thread is justified.

Please stop spewing the liberal drivel!

Stop ignoring the facts!

Good grief!! You sound like a broken record of left-wing talking points!

Please stop pushing the leftist propaganda and check into reality for a minute!

Cheers

-don

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TLTheLiberator

10 years ago

Originally Posted by ForumGuru

Please stop spewing the liberal drivel!

Stop ignoring the facts!

Good grief!! You sound like a broken record of left-wing talking points!

Please stop pushing the leftist propaganda and check into reality for a minute!

Cheers

-don

You're giving us one set of stats but there are more stats & phenomena than just the crime and homicide rates to confirm that America's Gun Obsession is getting worse and I don't know why some folks in here are having a hard time accepting it.

It's not the end of the world.

Ps. That green thing is a hoot.

Thanks for the hearty laugh.

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ForumGuru

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

You're giving us one set of stats but there are more stats & phenomena than just the crime and homicide rates to confirm that America's Gun Obsession is getting worse and I don't know why some folks in here are having a hard time accepting it.

It's called the liberal obsession with guns and gun owners...that's the facts jack. You have a hard time accepting your own obsession with guns and/or gun owners.

The facts are the facts and the fact is many liberals are obsessed with some really whack stuff.

Cheers

-don

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Clyde Dennis

10 years ago

The only sign I need to see to know we're way far off the original plan on this one is the fact that 22 elementary school students were lined up in the back of their classroom and slaughtered and there weren't riots in the streets. With 'the people' insisting that SOMETHING be done to somehow ensure that THAT never happens again.

Try to pass legislation that helps vastly more Americans than it hurts (Healthcare Reform) and you get people marching, and governments shutting down in an effort to stop it. Slaughter innocent kids and all you hear out of 'the people' is the sound of crickets.

Still amazes me.

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ThomM

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Clyde Dennis

The only sign I need to see to know we're way far off the original plan on this one is the fact that 22 elementary school students were lined up in the back of their classroom and slaughtered and there weren't riots in the streets. With 'the people' insisting that SOMETHING be done to somehow ensure that THAT never happens again.

Try to pass legislation that helps vastly more Americans than it hurts (Healthcare Reform) and you get people marching, and governments shutting down in an effort to stop it. Slaughter innocent kids and all you hear out of 'the people' is the sound of crickets.

Still amazes me.

Probably because what people insist should be done won't solve the problem.Maybe if people stopped focusing on the tools used and instead focused on the causes things would change.
School Shooters & Stabbings Committed by those on Psychiatric Drugs | CCHR International
Social Security Institute | It's The Drugs, NOT The Guns

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ForumGuru Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Clyde Dennis

. Slaughter innocent kids and all you hear out of 'the people' is the sound of crickets.

Sound of crickets??? That must be a joke!

Crickets is what we hear with regards to the gun and violent crime problem in cities like:

Chicago, Illinois
Detroit, Michigan
Baltimore, Maryland
New Orleans, Louisiana
Oakland, California
Memphis, Tennessee
Cleveland, Ohio
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
Kansas City, Missouri
Stockton, California
Atlanta, Georgia
Camden, New Jersey
Flint, Michigan
St. Louis, Missouri
Gary, Indiana
Newark, New Jersey
Bridgeport, Connecticut
Birmingham, Alabama

What were those 99%ers marching for? I guess that wasn't a highly publicized bunch of yahoos looking to cut down the murder rates in our most violent cities, eh? If you want to reduce gun crime then start screaming bloody murder about our most violent cities instead of the rare school shootings. If you are concerned about our youth then you must realize this is where far to many youth are getting gunned down on a daily basis by drug dealers, thugs, convicts and gangsters etc.

Chirp, chirp, chirp...

Cheers

-don
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- Kay King 10 years ago
  
  There have been 74 shootings at schools across the U.S. since the Sandy Hook massacre in December 2012, according to Everytown For Gun Safety--w
  
  No - the number is deceptive and we've already shown that in another thread.
  
  The number "shootings at schools" includes shootings near schools that had nothing to do with the schools, included shootings in parking lots and playgrounds that were drug related and gang related when school was NOT in session.
  
  It's not a reliable number you can base an argument on. You know it's not - so why use it again?
  
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- Enfusia 10 years ago
  
  You know why we need to remain armed?
  
  Putin said it best about 3 weeks ago. When he was smoothing over the military chief saying that Russia is the only country that could reduce the USA to nuclear dust (I believe those were the words) Putin said: "You cannot win a ground war against them (the USA) because the majority of the populace owns guns".
  
  Pardon if I'm a little off from the quote I looked it up, but couldn't find the news media reference for it again.
  
  Understand this. We have the worlds largest standing army. They are called armed Americans.
  
  Give up our guns? No thanks, I might have to press one for English but at least I don't have to press one for Kafir! (Just for ease of understanding Kafir means Infidel).
  
  Thank you, Patrick
  
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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Clyde Dennis

The only sign I need to see to know we're way far off the original plan on this one is the fact that 22 elementary school students were lined up in the back of their classroom and slaughtered and there weren't riots in the streets. With 'the people' insisting that SOMETHING be done to somehow ensure that THAT never happens again.

What do you expect them to do? Create a PRE CRIME? Such a solution has *****NEVER***** been done *****ANYWHERE*****! OH, you can CLAIM it has, but NAME A PLACE? Where were they with all the wars up to now?

Try to pass legislation that helps vastly more Americans than it hurts (Healthcare Reform) and you get people marching, and governments shutting down in an effort to stop it. Slaughter innocent kids and all you hear out of 'the people' is the sound of crickets.

Still amazes me.

You really don't know what you are talking about.

It HURT perhaps ONE HUNDRED PERCENT of those that were insured!!!!!!!!!!!!!! under private plans, and even medicare! It SUPPOSEDLY might EVENTUALLY help 10% of those that weren't covered! So HOW do you figure vastly more were helped than hurt? BTW, it DID hurt ME! I can "keep my insurance" ONLY if all those employed, including me, are willing, and able, to spend 50% more! They AREN'T! So I won't know about my insurance until maybe 8/1/2014.

Steve

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ForumGuru

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Clyde Dennis

With 'the people' insisting that SOMETHING be done to somehow ensure that THAT never happens again.

Insuring this will not happen again is an IMPOSSIBILITY! It's absurd of you to think we could do something that is impossible. I suggest you should focus on something that would actually lower US homicide rates...and that would be getting the known gang members, thugs, convicts and drug dealers off of the streets. Do this and I can guarantee you the US homicide rate will drop.

Try to pass legislation that helps vastly more Americans than it hurts (Healthcare Reform) and you get people marching, and governments shutting down in an effort to stop it.

Like Steve said, you are pushing a false narrative. NOBODY has proven Obamacare has helped more Americans than it has negatively affected. In-fact I believe it is a longshot that it it ever will. The plan was a failure from the beginning and to think that improving the health care system could not have been addressed in a better way is the same as burying your head in the sand.

Remember this Obama BS?

Barack Obama: "You Can Keep Your Health Care...

Obama Promises To Lower Health Insurance Premiums...

Unfortunately, Obamacare has not helped anybody that know personally. If it has, they have not made it known. Obamacare has negatively affected my family as well as many families and businesses that I know of.

Anyway, Obamacare is a long way from guns and gun ownership.

Cheers

-don

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ForumGuru

Banned 10 years ago

Hey, how about that violent crime rate in the UK? It's not the guns, it's people that commit violent crimes.

Britain's violent crime record is worse than any other country in the European union, it has been revealed. Official crime figures show the UK also has a worse rate for all types of violence than the U.S. and even South Africa - widely considered one of the world's most dangerous countries. The figures comes on the day new Home Secretary Alan Johnson makes his first major speech on crime, promising to be tough on loutish behaviour.

<snip>

The U.S. has a violence rate of 466 crimes per 100,000 residents, Canada 935, Australia 92 and South Africa 1,609. Shadow Home Secretary Chris Grayling said: "This is a damning indictment of this government's comprehensive failure over more than a decade to tackle the deep rooted social problems in our society, and the knock on effect on crime and anti-social behaviour."

Read more: The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S. | Mail Online

Let's face the facts --> to lower the gun crime rate in America we need to deal with the social problems in many of our inner cities, urban areas, and tough neighborhoods. We need to have less gang members, drug dealers, thugs, and convicts walking the streets. We need to somehow change their behavior, or we need to take them off of the streets.

Trying to pretend you can make a dent in the gun crime rate by dealing with a few kooks shooting up schools ain't gonna cut it. It's a false hope. We need to go to the root of the problem...and that problem certainly is NOT legal guns and legal gun owners. It's a statistical fact that the majority of US gun crime is committed by gang members, drug dealers, thugs and convicts with handguns so let's try to focus on the real societal problems in the US.

Cheers

-don

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Enfusia

10 years ago

Originally Posted by ForumGuru

Hey, how about that violent crime rate in the UK? It's not the guns, it's people that commit violent crimes.

Let's face the facts --> to lower the gun crime rate in America we need to deal with the social problems in many of our inner cities, urban areas, and tough neighborhoods. We need to have less gang members, drug dealers, thugs, and convicts walking the streets. We need to somehow change their behavior, or we need to take them off of the streets.

Trying to pretend you can make a dent in the gun crime rate by dealing with a few kooks shooting up schools ain't gonna cut it. It's a false hope. We need to go to the root of the problem...and that problem certainly is NOT legal guns and legal gun owners. It's a statistical fact that the majority of US gun crime is committed by gang members, drug dealers, thugs and convicts with handguns so let's try to focus on the real societal problems in the US.

Cheers

-don

Hey Don, thanks for the graphic.

Would you happen to have the numbers of how the USA stacks up against the UK in those categories?

Great find, but it would be cool to see that.

Thanks, Patrick

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ForumGuru

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Enfusia

Hey Don, thanks for the graphic.

Would you happen to have the numbers of how the USA stacks up against the UK in those categories?

Great find, but it would be cool to see that.

Thanks, Patrick

Hey Patrick...

Yeah, at the time of the graphic the US violent crime rate was 466 crimes per 100,000 residents which was lower than all of those cited on the graphic. That number is actually in the text I quoted below the graphic.

Cheers,

-don

Thanks

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