Malaysian Airlines 777 Shot Down in Ukraine near Russian Border

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MH17: Malaysia Airlines passenger plane crashes near Ukraine Russia border kills 295 | World | News | Daily Express

A Malaysian Airlines 777 flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpar with 290 people have crashed near the Ukraine and Russian border. There are some reports that it may have been shot down by a Russian missile at 30,000 ft. Hope there will be survivors, another horrible time for families.
  • Profile picture of the author GraphicsGod
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      And it looks like that is the ONLY news we will hear today from all the stations - guess the other networks are going to compete with CNN wall to all coverage on this one.

      Maybe I'm nuts - but how stupid is it to route a passenger plane over an area where plane have been brought down in the past week? It doesn't make sense to me but maybe that's common that part of the world.

      Conjecture is over the top - and the news anchors start by saying "we don't know anything but....". I found myself answering "if you don't know anything, why don't you shut up until you do?"....and knew it was time to turn off the TV
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  • Profile picture of the author bravo75
    World War 3 is knocking at our door.
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    • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
      Originally Posted by bravo75 View Post

      World War 3 is knocking at our door.

      We'll get WWZ before we get WW3.
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      • Profile picture of the author bravo75
        Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

        We'll get WWZ before we get WW3.
        Doubt it. Things are getting uncontainable. I'm not talking solely about this incident, either.
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
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    Common sense would be, don't fly a passenger jet over a war zone.


    1. Takes shortcut over war zone.
    2. Saves $5,700 in fuel cost.
    3. Gets shot down.

    Brilliant!
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    • Profile picture of the author bravo75
      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      Common sense would be, don't fly a passenger jet over a war zone.
      True. But sepratist skirmishes usually doesn't involve taking down airliners at 32,000 feet.
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      • Profile picture of the author yukon
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        Originally Posted by bravo75 View Post

        True. But a sepratist skirmishes usually doesn't involve taking down airliners at 32,000 feet.
        They do now!
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        • Profile picture of the author bravo75
          Originally Posted by yukon View Post

          They do now!
          Can't argue with that. But one has to ask themself, what is a separatist? A skinhead with a pair of Doc Martin's?
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        • Profile picture of the author David Maschke
          Originally Posted by yukon View Post

          They do now!
          Separatists with surface-to-air missiles?

          Ok.

          Do the local militias in Iowa have Ohio class submarines?
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          • Profile picture of the author yukon
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            Originally Posted by David Maschke View Post

            Separatists with surface-to-air missiles?

            Ok.

            Do the local militias in Iowa have Ohio class submarines?
            Your confusing a war zone with cornfields.
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            • Profile picture of the author David Maschke
              Originally Posted by yukon View Post

              Your confusing a war zone with cornfields.
              Hmmm. I see your point.

              So a few guys chipped in a couple of hundred bucks each and together they bought a mult-million dollar surface to air missile, because of course that will help bring about their ultimate strategic goal of having their own independent nation state.

              I'll buy that.
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              • Profile picture of the author yukon
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                Originally Posted by David Maschke View Post

                Hmmm. I see your point.

                So a few guys chipped in a couple of hundred bucks each and together they bought a mult-million dollar surface to air missile, because of course that will help bring about their ultimate strategic goal of having their own independent nation state.

                I'll buy that.
                Putin is playing two hands in that card game.
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                • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                  Yesterday it was reported on several news networks that 23 Americans were on board - today it's reported no Americans identified as on board so far.

                  Until the "facts" stabilize - we don't know who shot down this plane. Seems most logical that the change in the plane's path due to storms in the area led to mis-identifying it. I don't for a moment believe anyone in that area intended to shoot down a passenger plane.

                  But someone did shoot it down - and it's going to be a real mess.
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          • Profile picture of the author derekwong28
            Originally Posted by David Maschke View Post

            Separatists with surface-to-air missiles?

            Ok.

            Do the local militias in Iowa have Ohio class submarines?
            It is thought unlikely that separatists would have such sophisticated weapons. The main suspects are now either the Russian or Ukraine military.
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            • Profile picture of the author David Maschke
              Originally Posted by derekwong28 View Post

              It is thought unlikely that separatists would have such sophisticated weapons. The main suspects are now either the Russian or Ukraine military.
              I beg your pardon, kind Doctor. Have you read the latest news?...

              Originally Posted by yukon View Post

              They do now!
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  • Profile picture of the author Raydal
    This is indeed a sad incidence. If it was shot down somebody has
    a lot of explaining to do--either aviation or military.

    -Ray Edwards
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    • Profile picture of the author yukon
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      Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

      This is indeed a sad incidence. If it was shot down somebody has
      a lot of explaining to do--either aviation or military.

      -Ray Edwards
      What's there to explain, the flight plan was a fail.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ekushey
    I don't know how to take this but the wife booked me a Malaysian Airline flight.
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    • Profile picture of the author derekwong28
      Originally Posted by Ekushey View Post

      I don't know how to take this but the wife booked me a Malaysian Airline flight.
      I was telling my mother yesterday that we got to meet again before both of us fly off next week. I told her that I was a bit concerned about the 777 after an incident where one was forced to land at Midway island. Now this happened just a few hours after we had that conversation.
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  • Profile picture of the author XenG
    Russia is really starting out the war here. Tsk. This is the second incident involving a Malaysian airline this year. I wonder what's up with those Malaysian planes or whatever.

    God bless those souls.
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    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
      Originally Posted by XenG View Post

      This is the second incident involving a Malaysian airline this year. I wonder what's up with those Malaysian planes or whatever.
      What's 'up' is they're not designed with getting shot down in mind.
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  • Profile picture of the author adamhungz1
    why have proprem with air
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  • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
    To quote Dan Riffle (I'm referring to the situation - not the thread):

    This won't end well.
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  • Profile picture of the author derekwong28
    There are some new details which seem to providing damning evidence that Russian separatists and Russia itself was involved. A BUK missile launcher with 2 out of 4 rockets missing was photographed going back into Russia.

    Is this flight MH17's smoking gun? Footage emerges of BUK missile launcher being moved into place in Russian separatist stronghold just two hours before MH17 was shot out of the sky | Mail Online
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  • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
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    This was mentioned later in the link derekwong28 posted and was reported yesterday.

    Ukraine's SBU intercepts phone conversations of separatists admitting downing a civilian plane...
    Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777-200 flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur was allegedly shot down by a group of Russian-backed Cossack militants near the village of Chornukhine, Luhansk Oblast, some 80 kilometers north-west of Donetsk, according to recordings of intercepted phone calls between Russian military intelligence officers and members of terrorist groups, released by the country’s security agency (SBU).

    One phone call apparently was made at 4:40 p.m. Kyiv time, or 20 minutes after the plane crash, by Igor Bezler, who the SBU says is a Russian military intelligence officer and leading commander of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic. He reports to a person identified by Ukraine’s SBU as a colonel in the main intelligence department of the general headquarters of the armed forces of the Russian Federation Vasili Geranin regarding the shot down plane, which is about to be examined by the militants....
    Igor Bezler: We have just shot down a plane. Group Minera. It fell down beyond Yenakievo (Donetsk Oblast).

    Vasili Geranin: Pilots. Where are the pilots?

    IB: Gone to search for and photograph the plane. Its smoking.

    VG: How many minutes ago?

    IB: About 30 minutes ago.

    SBU comment: After examining the site of the plane the terrorists come to the conclusion that they have shot down a civilian plane. The next part of the conversation took place about 40 minutes later.

    “Major”: These are Chernukhin folks who shot down the plane. From the Chernukhin check point. Those cossacks who are based in Chernukhino.

    “Grek”: Yes, Major.

    "Major": The plane fell apart in the air. In the area of Petropavlovskaya mine. The first “200” (code word for dead person). We have found the first “200”. A Civilian.

    “Greek”: Well, what do you have there?

    “Major”: In short, it was 100 percent a passenger (civilian) aircraft.

    “Greek”: Are many people there?

    “Major”: Holy sh__t! The debris fell right into the yards (of homes).

    “Greek”: What kind of aircraft?

    “Major”: I haven’t ascertained this. I haven’t been to the main sight. I am only surveying the scene where the first bodies fell. There are the remains of internal brackets, seats and bodies.

    “Greek”: Is there anything left of the weapon?

    “Major”: Absolutely nothing. Civilian items, medicinal stuff, towels, toilet paper.

    “Greek”: Are there documents?

    “Major”: Yes, of one Indonesian student. From a university in Thompson.

    Militant: Regarding the plane shot down in the area of Snizhne-Torez. It’s a civilian one. Fell down near Grabove. There are lots of corpses of women and children. The Cossacks are out there looking at all this.

    They say on TV it’s AN-26 transport plane, but they say it’s written Malaysia Airlines on the plane. What was it doing on Ukraine’s territory?

    Nikolay Kozitsin: That means they were carrying spies. They shouldn’t be f…cking flying. There is a war going on.
    SBU intercepts phone conversations of separatists admitting downing a civilian plane (FULL TRANSCRIPT; VIDEO)


    Cheers

    -don
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  • Profile picture of the author WalkingCarpet
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    Three infants dead. How horrible.
    Imagine the panic and screaming as they are plummeting to the ground.
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    • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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      Originally Posted by WalkingCarpet View Post

      Three infants dead. How horrible.
      Imagine the panic and screaming as they are plummeting to the ground.
      Yeah. I think I ponder that over my morning coffee. If I'm lucky I'll be able to recreate that in stereo in my mind.

      Thanks for nothing.

      Cheers. - Frank
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      • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
        Originally Posted by JensSteyaert View Post

        Yes according to the media, now there is proof that the missile was droven into Ukraine from Russia, and after the tragedy was brought back to Russia.

        If this is true this means Putin is basically guilty of mass murder, something which will give this horrible event a whole new dimension. The moment it's proven this is what happened, putting more economic sanctions on Russia simply won't suffice...

        As you mentioned, this event could trigger something we really don't want...

        But then again, these are just specualtions without any solid evidence (yet)...
        Yes, if proven to be true, but European countries, will be hesitant to bring in new sanctions, as most of their oil or gas comes from Russia.

        If pushed far enough, the Ukraine mess, could scale up to Europe and Russia!


        Russia isn't a tiny dictactor country, with a joke of an army, it is on par with the US. So he might push it, to gain more territory!

        Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

        Yeah. I think I ponder that over my morning coffee. If I'm lucky I'll be able to recreate that in stereo in my mind.

        Thanks for nothing.

        Cheers. - Frank
        Yes, the main reason l don't watch the news, when l get up.

        I hear about more death and destruction in Irak, etc, and have to feel lousy, to reiffurm that l care!

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      • Profile picture of the author JensSteyaert
        Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

        Yeah. I think I ponder that over my morning coffee. If I'm lucky I'll be able to recreate that in stereo in my mind.

        Thanks for nothing.

        Cheers. - Frank
        No need to ponder, they were killed instantly...(or at least unconcious the moment it was hit).
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        • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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          Originally Posted by JensSteyaert View Post

          No need to ponder, they were killed instantly...(or at least unconcious the moment it was hit).
          While that may be a comforting thought, it's not, unfortunately, based on any actual knowledge or scientific fact. Pure supposition.

          Cheers. - Frank
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          • Profile picture of the author JensSteyaert
            Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

            While that may be a comforting thought, it's not, unfortunately, based on any actual knowledge or scientific fact. Pure supposition.

            Cheers. - Frank
            Maybe not scientific fact (how would they go about that?) but you have to be really pessimistic to think that even a single poor soul on that plane was alive 1 second after that plane collided with a missile traveling at 3000mph.
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            • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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              Originally Posted by JensSteyaert View Post

              Maybe not scientific fact (how would they go about that?) but you have to be really pessimistic to think that even a single poor soul on that plane was alive 1 second after that plane collided with a missile traveling at 3000mph.
              I'm not sure that 'pessimistic' is the word I would use. It's certainly sad to think that some individuals might have lived for 15 or 30 seconds and possibly a bit longer. Remember, these are not 'impact' weapons. They explode before impact sending shrapnel over a wide area. As horrific as it must have been, and for us to contemplate I would tend to believe that many of the people on board saw the plane come apart around them and lived long enough to know exactly what their fate was going to be.

              I'm not sure that makes me a pessimist. More of a 'realist' I would think. Thinking what we want to think to assuage our own terrifying fear and incomprehensible thoughts does nothing to change the reality of what probably transpired for many on board.

              Sorry if that brings you psychic pain. That is not my intention. Employing your way of perceiving what took place only lessens the degree of what was an heinous act of inhumanity. Those people suffered an unspeakable horror and someone should pay, but of course, no one ever will. Life isn't just.

              Frank
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              • Profile picture of the author JensSteyaert
                Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

                I'm not sure that 'pessimistic' is the word I would use. It's certainly sad to think that some individuals might have lived for 15 or 30 seconds and possibly a bit longer. Remember, these are not 'impact' weapons. They explode before impact sending shrapnel over a wide area. As horrific as it must have been, and for us to contemplate I would tend to believe that many of the people on board saw the plane come apart around them and lived long enough to know exactly what their fate was going to be.

                I'm not sure that makes me a pessimist. More of a 'realist' I would think. Thinking what we want to think to assuage our own terrifying fear and incomprehensible thoughts does nothing to change the reality of what probably transpired for many on board.

                Sorry if that brings you psychic pain. That is not my intention. Employing your way of perceiving what took place only lessens the degree of what was an heinous act of inhumanity. Those people suffered an unspeakable horror and someone should pay, but of course, no one ever will. Life isn't just.

                Frank
                Yes we will never know, and perhaps for the best...

                But most likely this happened:
                "The airplane most likely had a rapid decompression which, at those altitudes, would make you pass out." That, combined with "the G-forces of the airplane spinning around probably meant, mercifully, that most of these people weren't conscious on the way down."

                Anyways, that sounds realistic to me...



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                • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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                  Originally Posted by JensSteyaert View Post

                  Yes we will never know, and perhaps for the best...

                  But most likely this happened:
                  "The airplane most likely had a rapid decompression which, at those altitudes, would make you pass out." That, combined with "the G-forces of the airplane spinning around probably meant, mercifully, that most of these people weren't conscious on the way down."

                  Anyways, that sounds realistic to me...
                  I wouldn't argue with anything stated there. I would just add that I doubt it would be instantaneous. I would hope that it would be, but realistically, I just don't and can't believe that. I also agree that we'll never know, but that fact should not have any bearing in reaching our personal conclusions as to what we believe. I find nothing but sadness in my estimation of what I truly believe would take place for some people in that situation. Could anything be more horrific? I think, not.

                  Frank
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                  • Profile picture of the author derekwong28
                    Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

                    I wouldn't argue with anything stated there. I would just add that I doubt it would be instantaneous. I would hope that it would be, but realistically, I just don't and can't believe that. I also agree that we'll never know, but that fact should not have any bearing in reaching our personal conclusions as to what we believe. I find nothing but sadness in my estimation of what I truly believe would take place for some people in that situation. Could anything be more horrific? I think, not.

                    Frank
                    I can't even imagine what passengers on the missing MH370 went through. We will probably not know until the plane is found.

                    Apparently, Ukraine closed off the airspace below 32,000 ft. Why did they not close it off completely? A few military planes had been shot down in the days before. Surely, it doesn't make sense to continue flying through it.
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                    • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
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                      Originally Posted by derekwong28 View Post

                      I can't even imagine what passengers on the missing MH370 went through. We will probably not know until the plane is found.

                      Apparently, Ukraine closed off the airspace below 32,000 ft. Why did they not close it off completely? A few military planes had been shot down in the days before. Surely, it doesn't make sense to continue flying through it.
                      It was VERY mistakenly thought that commercial airliners would be safe flying at that altitude over the region. It's on very rare occasion that rebels get their hands on a system that can hit planes at that altitude. The no-fly zone had recently been raised from 26,000 feet to 32,000 feet but obviously this did not prevent the shoot down from happening.

                      Vitaly Nayda, who is the head of the counterintelligence division of Ukraine's security service, stated that Ukranian officials knew that the rebels were in possession of powerful SAM systems --> so it appears as if raising the no fly zone to below 32,000 feet instead of closing it altogether was a huge mistake.

                      Eurocontrol had deemed the flight path safe, and the pilot could have refused the route, so I suppose one can find plenty of blame go around but ultimately it is those that fired the weapon that are most responsible.

                      Three Buk-M1 medium-range antiaircraft systems, also known as the SA-11 Gadfly under the North Atlantic Treaty Organization designation, were known to be in rebel hands as early as July 14, said Vitaly Nayda, the head of the counterintelligence division of Ukraine's security service

                      <snip>

                      Ukraine imposed a partial flight ban in the region on flights below 26,000 feet on July 1, and raised the ceiling of the exclusion area to 32,000 feet on July 14. The Malaysia Airlines plane was flying at 33,000 feet.

                      The altitude restrictions on commercial flights were raised after rebel separatists backed by Moscow on July 14 shot down a Ukrainian military Antonov An-26 transport plane with eight people on board over the skies of the Luhansk region. The aircraft was flying at 21,000 feet.

                      <snip>

                      More ubiquitous shoulder-fired, heat-seeking ground-to-air missiles that are viewed as a more common threat to aircraft wouldn't have been capable of reaching the altitude at which the military plane was flying. The incident is being investigated.

                      Ukraine Knew of Separatists' Air-Defense Capabilities, Say Officials - WSJ
                      Europe's international aviation organization Eurocontrol had deemed MH17's flight path safe, as Aviation Week reports. Though it is true that the pilot's flight path had been cleared for 35,000 feet and the plane had traveled at 33,000, it was still in what was considered a safe range, according to a NOTAM, short for "notice to airmen," sent before the plane went down.

                      Aviation authorities issue NOTAMs for all sorts of reasons, from an air show to an international conflict, and thousands are in effect at any given time. Aviation Week points to a Russian NOTAM issued shortly before the crash that had restricted many flight paths over Ukraine on any plane flying below 32,000 feet, due to fighting on the ground in that country. But the prescribed altitude was clearly was not out of range of a surface-to-air missile, the weapon that brought MH17 down.

                      MH17 not unique; commercial aircraft often fly over conflict zones - Vox
                      Cheers

                      -don
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                • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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                  Originally Posted by JensSteyaert View Post

                  Yes we will never know, and perhaps for the best...

                  But most likely this happened:
                  "The airplane most likely had a rapid decompression which, at those altitudes, would make you pass out." That, combined with "the G-forces of the airplane spinning around probably meant, mercifully, that most of these people weren't conscious on the way down."

                  Anyways, that sounds realistic to me...
                  I don't know if you are aware of the fact that information was released, yesterday by the office in the UN that investigates these incidents, but they revealed that when the Russians shot down Korean Airlines flight 007 with 2 rockets, that the passengers were likely to have survived for a full 12 minutes while the plane made a semi-controlled spiraling descent into the sea.

                  Frank
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  • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
    Here's something that needs to be questioned:

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    • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
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      Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

      Here's something that needs to be questioned:
      FWIW I believe it has been reported that it was flying that corridor due to weather. According to most of the reporting agencies the pilot did not have to accept the route.

      “This was a very commonly used route and passenger jets fly at high altitudes over many of the world’s hotspots all the time,” said Norman Shanks, professor of aviation security at Britain’s Coventry University. “They chose the most direct and economic flight route possible, which keeps their fuel costs down and is something we expect as customers. They were no different from any other international airline.”

      <snip>

      Flight plans are drawn up by airlines and pilots and submitted to air traffic controllers for approval. Ultimately, pilots fly the agreed routing – unless they receive or request adjustments from air traffic controllers while en route.

      MH17’s exact flight plan – a routing defined by a series of waypoints and air corridors - has not been confirmed but appears to have included airway L980, a busy section of airspace that acted as an airborne freeway between northern Europe and southern Asia.

      British Airways, Air France, Lufthansa and KLM are among the airlines to have used exactly the same routing over eastern Ukraine in recent days, according to website FlightRadar24.

      “Fifteen out of 16 airlines in the Association of Asia Pacific Airlines fly this route over Ukraine,” Malaysia’s transport minister Liow Tiong Lai said Friday. “European airlines also use the same route, and traverse the same airspace.”

      <snip>

      “MH17's flight plan was approved by Eurocontrol, who are solely responsible for determining civil aircraft flight paths over European airspace,” the Malaysia Airlines statement said. "Eurocontrol is the air navigation service provider for Europe and is governed under ICAO rules.

      http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukr...-money-n159161
      Since the incident the airspace in that part of the world has largely been devoid of traffic.



      Cheers

      -don
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    • Profile picture of the author yukon
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        One of the most interesting commentaries I've heard on this tragedy was on one of the networks and pretty much made hash of the talking heads conjectures.

        The man is retired after years of investigating plane crashes - and he's a former pilot. In other words one of those rare talking heads that knows what he is talking about.

        He said the plane routed differently due to several storms located in the normal path - and said that is normal. He said the black box is useless if the plane was shot down. It won't tell anything they don't know.

        What he said that fascinated me was this:

        "There are too many convenient facts here for my taste - enough to make me question conclusions being drawn."

        He specifically mentioned three pieces of "information" that quickly surfaced...

        1. part of recorded conversation indicated something had been "positioned"

        2. a message (that has been erased) saying "we shot down a ...."

        3. a video surfacing that seems to show a rocket launch-capable truck driving "into Russia"

        He said "proof" produced within 2-3 days that is conveniently telling a particular story...is not something experienced investigators would trust.
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        • Profile picture of the author JensSteyaert
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          One of the most interesting commentaries I've heard on this tragedy was on one of the networks and pretty much made hash of the talking heads conjectures.

          The man is retired after years of investigating plane crashes - and he's a former pilot. In other words one of those rare talking heads that knows what he is talking about.

          He said the plane routed differently due to several storms located in the normal path - and said that is normal. He said the black box is useless if the plane was shot down. It won't tell anything they don't know.

          What he said that fascinated me was this:

          "There are too many convenient facts here for my taste - enough to make me question conclusions being drawn."

          He specifically mentioned three pieces of "information" that quickly surfaced...

          1. part of recorded conversation indicated something had been "positioned"

          2. a message (that has been erased) saying "we shot down a ...."

          3. a video surfacing that seems to show a rocket launch-capable truck driving "into Russia"

          He said "proof" produced within 2-3 days that is conveniently telling a particular story...is not something experienced investigators would trust.
          Exactly!

          What strikes me most, apart from what this person mentioned about the evidence, is that the Ukranian government only points fingers, and wasn't doing anything to help with the investigation the first hours. It happened on their soil right? Why didn't they march their army over there to secure the area?

          It seems to me that if the rebels would have tried to stop them they would automatically be the main suspect of this tragedy...
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          • Profile picture of the author Leather Rebel
            A friend of mine in Ukraine wrote the separatists are just a bunch of apes with guns, they would not be able to make a war as most of them are just junkies and criminals. BUT russian specialists are working there undercover, however Putin did not officially states that. So it is not easy for ukrainian army to struggle with so-called "rebels" as russian army is much larger and better equiped.
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            • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
              Originally Posted by Leather Rebel View Post

              A friend of mine in Ukraine wrote the separatists are just a bunch of apes with guns, they would not be able to make a war as most of them are just junkies and criminals.

              BUT russian specialists are working there undercover, however Putin did not officially states that.

              So it is not easy for ukrainian army to struggle with so-called "rebels" as russian army is much larger and better equiped.
              I wouldn't be surprised at the above and BTW...

              ...Russia claims the west jumped into Ukraine and performed a regime change operation and now their next door neighbor and some say satellite gov in Ukraine was ousted and replaced with a much more western friendly government.

              I think the Russians understand they have lost the Ukraine gov and country for now, but they're happy to secretly? back those rebels and attempt tear off a piece of Ukraine or at least prevent it from living in a non-war situation anytime soon as part of the price Putin feels they must pay for turning to the west.

              Are the Russian voiced concerns regarding the welfare of ethnic Russians in Ukraine justified?

              Did your friend say anything about that?
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          • Profile picture of the author Leather Rebel
            Originally Posted by JensSteyaert View Post

            Exactly!

            What strikes me most, apart from what this person mentioned about the evidence, is that the Ukranian government only points fingers, and wasn't doing anything to help with the investigation the first hours. It happened on their soil right? Why didn't they march their army over there to secure the area?

            It seems to me that if the rebels would have tried to stop them they would automatically be the main suspect of this tragedy...
            Exactly THAT part of Ukraine is under control of pro-russian separatists. There was a scandal recently in russian press, they were wondering where those 20 000 guns they had sent to rebels disappeared. IT means putin unofficially supports those idiots.
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              Hamas see it as a great victory that the flights are stopped
              With less than 30 Israelis killed and almost 600 Palestinians, it seems rather petty to be worried that Hamas will claim a victory.

              If it's safe, it's up to the airlines. What I don't like is for Israel and pols to demand we fly our commercial planes into a war zone which is what it is.
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              Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world will change forever for that one dog.

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  • Profile picture of the author derekwong28
    I would imaging that Malaysian Airlines would be under severe pressure to cut fuel costs after the earlier accident. But it seems that several other airlines use that route as well.

    There are 80 children dead including those 3 infants.
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  • Profile picture of the author j0k3r
    This is a really horrible mistakes, RIP for the victims.
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  • Profile picture of the author JagSEO
    That was sad.
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  • Profile picture of the author WalkingCarpet
    Banned
    80 children among dead. How horrible
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  • Profile picture of the author MyLuckyYear
    At first I thought "how stupid is that!" then I thought is this some kind of conspiracy and no I am no conspiracy nut. Management knows that if anything happens to their plane they have lawsuits and a tone of negative media coverage so they wouldn't want to risk it for saving less than $10,000 in fuel costs.

    Seems a bit too fishy to me!

    I didn't subscribe to any conspiracy notions until I read about how there was something valuable (patent) on that plane that some powerful miserable freak wanted (Rockefeller type) and he shot down the whole plane so that he could get his hands on the patent.
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  • Profile picture of the author candoit2
    Surprised no one has mentioned yet the report of the rebel leader posting on Russian website claiming to have shot down the plane and then deletes it after finding out it wasn't a military plane.

    Wayback machine has the evidence though that he really said it.

    Web evidence points to pro-Russia rebels in downing of MH17 (+video) - CSMonitor.com
    .
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    • Profile picture of the author JensSteyaert
      Originally Posted by AaronJones View Post

      Surprised no one has mentioned yet the report of the rebel leader posting on Russian website claiming to have shot down the plane and then deletes it after finding out it wasn't a military plane.

      Wayback machine has the evidence though that he really said it.

      Web evidence points to pro-Russia rebels in downing of MH17 (+video) - CSMonitor.com
      .
      One question: They shot down 2-3 planes before, did he post a message about those planes too?
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      • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
        Banned
        Originally Posted by JensSteyaert View Post

        One question: They shot down 2-3 planes before, did he post a message about those planes too?
        Ambassador Samantha Power the Permanent Representative of the United States to the United Nations, at the Security Council Meeting on Ukraine New York, NY on July 18, 2014.

        Early Thursday, an SA-11 SAM system was reported near Snizhne by a Western reporter and separatists were spotted hours before the incident with an SA-11 system at a location close to the site where the plane came down.

        Separatists initially claimed responsibility for shooting down a military transport plane and posted videos that are now being connected to the Malaysian airlines crash. Separatist leaders also boasted on social media about shooting down a plane, but later deleted these messages.

        Because of the technical complexity of the SA-11, it is unlikely that the separatists could effectively operate the system without assistance from knowledgeable personnel. Thus, we cannot rule out technical assistance from Russian personnel in operating the systems.
        This also follows a pattern of actions by Russian-backed separatists. On June 13th, separatists shot down a Ukrainian transport plane, carrying 40 paratroopers and nine crew. On June 24th, as this Council was meeting to welcome Ukraine’s unilateral ceasefire, we received word that separatists downed a Ukrainian helicopter, killing all nine on board.

        On July 14th, separatists claimed credit for the downing of a Ukrainian military cargo plane, flying at 6,000 meters, and on July 16, they claimed credit for the downing of a Ukrainian fighter jet.
        Read Samantha Power's entire remarks here...

        Remarks by Ambassador Samantha Power, Permanent Representative of the United States to the United Nations, at the Security Council Meeting on Ukraine, July 18, 2014

        A no-fly zone existed below 32,000 feet as generally speaking, "typical" rebel forces usually are not in a possession of SA-11 or other SAM systems that are capable of hitting planes flying at high altitudes. It takes possession and a good deal of knowledge to actually operate these sophisticated missile launchers as the Ambassador indicated.

        Obviously this is a game changer.

        Cheers

        -don
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    • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
      Banned
      Originally Posted by AaronJones View Post

      Surprised no one has mentioned yet the report of the rebel leader posting on Russian website claiming to have shot down the plane and then deletes it after finding out it wasn't a military plane.

      Wayback machine has the evidence though that he really said it.

      Web evidence points to pro-Russia rebels in downing of MH17 (+video) - CSMonitor.com
      .
      Yeah, that was reported very shortly after the crash. These two posts have the audio and the transcript of Rebel Commander and a Russian military intelligence officer discussing the fact that they shot down a civilian airliner.

      http://www.warriorforum.com/off-topi...ml#post9367813

      http://www.warriorforum.com/off-topi...ml#post9367422

      One phone call apparently was made at 4:40 p.m. Kyiv time, or 20 minutes after the plane crash, by Igor Bezler, who the SBU says is a Russian military intelligence officer and leading commander of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic. He reports to a person identified by Ukraine’s SBU as a colonel in the main intelligence department of the general headquarters of the armed forces of the Russian Federation Vasili Geranin regarding the shot down plane, which is about to be examined by the militants.
      Cheers

      -don
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        Wayback machine has the evidence though that he really said it.
        That stopped me cold as I've never been able to go to Wayback Machine and closely target a web page for something posted in the past few days....never!
        Not saying it can't happen - but unusual in my experience.

        Many in the media and pols seem quite willing to take this evidence at face vaolue and start throwing accusation. They may be right - but they may be wrong and might be wise to tone down the rhetoric until we know who did what.

        Today complaints in the media that "bodies have been removed from the site". It's 80 degrees there - how many days should bodies be left out in the open? Victims deserve more respect than that.
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        • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          They may be right - but they may be wrong and might be wise to tone down the rhetoric until we know who did what.
          According to Samantha Power the US believes the Ukrainian forces did not have control of any SAM systems in the area, and they have not fired a single surface-to-air missile since the conflict began. I am sure the US has pretty good intelligence on what missiles are coming from where as we do have that capability.

          The Ukrainians do have SA-11 systems in their inventory. However, we are not aware of any Ukrainian SAM systems in the area of the shoot-down. And, more importantly, since the beginning of this crisis, Ukrainian air defenses have not fired a single missile, despite several alleged violations of their airspace by Russian aircraft.

          Remarks by Ambassador Samantha Power, U.S. Permanent Representative to the United Nations, at a Security Council Briefing on the Middle East, July 18, 2014
          Cheers

          -don
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        • Profile picture of the author candoit2
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          That stopped me cold as I've never been able to go to Wayback Machine and closely target a web page for something posted in the past few days....never!
          Not saying it can't happen - but unusual in my experience.
          There are screenshots in the article.

          I'm not sure how it works either, but I think someone has to save the page in the wayback archive and then from then on it will record it.

          If I saw someone post something I wanted to make sure there would be a record for I would submit the url of that site or page.(Under save page now..bottom right)

          If a rebel leader has a social media profile, then someone likely will go and want a recorded log of what they posted online.

          That's my best guess anyways of how it is done.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            I think we need to let the countries who lost so many citizens set the tone for this right now - until the evidence has been sorted out and we KNOW who is to blame and know whether this was a horrendous case of mistaken identify or an intentional act.

            Thom mentioned the US shooting down a passenger plane in the past - it's interesting to read the historical view of that.

            The forgotten story of Iran Air Flight 655 - The Washington Post
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            • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              Thom mentioned the US shooting down a passenger plane in the past - it's interesting to read the historical view of that.
              The USS Vincennes was a guided missile cruiser in my battle group in 1986-1987 during Western Pacific and Indian Ocean operations and it was one of the newest guided missile cruisers in the US Navy at that time. It was outfitted with all of the "latest" military technology including the AN/SPY-1 Radar which was part of the Aegis Combat System which was the system being used when the SM-2MR missiles took down Flight 655.

              I was a Link and Crypto Electronic Technician aboard the USS Leahy which was the oldest guided missile crusier in the fleet at the time. Us and the Vincennes were the two guided missile cruisers attached to the USS Carl Vinson's battle group. My ship was was in dry dock getting an NTU (New Threat Upgrade) in 1988 when the unfortunate incident occurred with the Vincennes and Flight 655.

              At the time of the incident the Iranians had been attacking neutral tankers, USN ships, and they were mining international waterways and on top of that US Intellegence had predicted attacks around July 4th. The Vincennes was actively engaged in a gun battle with Iranian gunboats when the terrible tragedy occurred. Fresh in the minds of the personnel aboard the Vincennes was the 1987 Iraqi attack on the USS Stark that killed 37 sailors.

              In the end human error and human/system interface mishaps were the root causes of the disaster.

              CIC is an extremely complex place, especially in battle, when real time decision making is critical and this incident proved that horrible accidents can happen. We do see friendly fire incidents in ground combat occur quite frequently, and it's a great thing that seaborne accidents like this happen very, very infrequently.

              If you want to read the MIT report on the incident you can find it here:

              http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/aeronauti.../vincennes.pdf

              Cheers

              -don
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              • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
                Originally Posted by adamhungz1 View Post

                why have proprem with air
                Always good to have some idea of the topic of discussion before you post. You'll look better that way.

                Originally Posted by JensSteyaert View Post

                Exactly!

                What strikes me most, apart from what this person mentioned about the evidence, is that the Ukranian government only points fingers, and wasn't doing anything to help with the investigation the first hours. It happened on their soil right? Why didn't they march their army over there to secure the area?

                It seems to me that if the rebels would have tried to stop them they would automatically be the main suspect of this tragedy...
                Jens,

                If the Ukrainians could just march their army into a rebel held area and take control, there'd be no war going on would there? It did happen on their soil but not soil they currently control, hence the war. Also didn't the rebels secure the area and not let anyone in? What does that make them?

                Can you actually find me any evidence of Russia or the separatists doing anything other than pointing their fingers at the Ukrainians? I haven't even heard Putin condemn the attack yet.

                I'm not saying who did this and don't know who did this but I'll tell you this, I don't trust any of them in this.

                Originally Posted by WalkingCarpet View Post

                Three infants dead. How horrible.
                Imagine the panic and screaming as they are plummeting to the ground.
                Originally Posted by WalkingCarpet View Post

                80 children among dead. How horrible
                Originally Posted by WalkingCarpet View Post

                80 children dead.
                Yes it's tragic but I think we all get your point now.
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                • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                  Yes according to the media, now there is proof that the missile was droven into Ukraine from Russia, and after the tragedy was brought back to Russia.
                  To me, the part in bold is not reliable. The conclusions being drawn - most of it on "unverified evidence" go too far for my taste.

                  I can believe separatists did this - but might also believe Ukrainians did it - we don't fully know what weapons are there at this point.

                  I don't think Putin is stupid - and shooting down a plane without making certain it's a real target....is a stupid thing to do. Another "unverified report" today names Putin in a supposed "recording" - and I find it hard to believe anyone would buy into that particular "fact".

                  I have no doubt there was looting - the only thing that stops that in other crashes is the swift takeover of a crash scene by authorities and agencies. That didn't happen here.
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                  • Profile picture of the author JensSteyaert
                    Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                    To me, the part in bold is not reliable. The conclusions being drawn - most of it on "unverified evidence" go too far for my taste.

                    I can believe separatists did this - but might also believe Ukrainians did it - we don't fully know what weapons are there at this point.

                    I don't think Putin is stupid - and shooting down a plane without making certain it's a real target....is a stupid thing to do. Another "unverified report" today names Putin in a supposed "recording" - and I find it hard to believe anyone would buy into that particular "fact".

                    I have no doubt there was looting - the only thing that stops that in other crashes is the swift takeover of a crash scene by authorities and agencies. That didn't happen here.
                    Yes i agree i wasn't trying to make anything real out of this media story though...

                    All i can hear now are assumptions which are being presented as proof. That alone should make everybody with an objective look at the situation sceptical
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                • Profile picture of the author JensSteyaert
                  Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post


                  I'm not saying who did this and don't know who did this but I'll tell you this, I don't trust any of them in this.

                  .
                  Yes i agree and let's leave it at that...
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    • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
      Banned
      Originally Posted by mrozlat View Post

      was it at 11:11 ?
      I believe the airliner went down around 1415 GMT (10:15 AM EDT).

      Cheers

      -don
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  • Profile picture of the author WalkingCarpet
    Banned
    80 children dead.
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    • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
      Yes, read about it today, and without going through the whole thread, apart from a limited radar system, and probably not giving a crap, they launched it, (missile)!

      But others are right this situation with Putin, as well as the Ukraine mess, is looking familiar to how world war 1 started.

      A lot of indipendant sutiations all helped in the leadup to setting things in motion, or starting it!

      The assassination pushed the button, (so to speak) but either way, no one is going near that airline again!

      Two planes within 12 months is too much!

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      • Profile picture of the author JensSteyaert
        Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

        Yes, read about it today, and without going through the whole thread, apart from a limited radar system, and probably not giving a crap, they launched it, (missile)!

        But others are right this situation with Putin, as well as the Ukraine mess, is looking familiar to how world war 1 started.

        A lot of indipendant sutiations all helped in the leadup to setting things in motion, or starting it!

        The assassination pushed the button, (so to speak) but either way, no one is going near that airline again!

        Two planes within 12 months is too much!

        Yes according to the media, now there is proof that the missile was droven into Ukraine from Russia, and after the tragedy was brought back to Russia.

        If this is true this means Putin is basically guilty of mass murder, something which will give this horrible event a whole new dimension. The moment it's proven this is what happened, putting more economic sanctions on Russia simply won't suffice...

        As you mentioned, this event could trigger something we really don't want...

        But then again, these are just specualtions without any solid evidence (yet)...
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    I heard the bodies of the dead have been stripped of their valuables and credit cards have already been used.
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
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    "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

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  • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
    Banned
    @TL --> why even dignify that disrespectful nonsense with a post and a link? That's well beyond the theater of the absurd.

    Cheers

    -don
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    • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
      Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

      @TL --> why even dignify that disrespectful nonsense with a post and a link?

      That's well beyond the theater of the absurd.

      Cheers

      -don
      So why didn't you just ignore it instead of trying to be the editor of this thread?
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      • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
        Banned
        Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

        So why didn't you just ignore it instead of trying to be the editor of this thread?
        Nobody tried editing anything...I simply asked you a question. Have a nice day.

        Cheers

        -don
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      • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
        Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

        So why didn't you just ignore it instead of trying to be the editor of this thread?
        Sorry Jen, I wasn't being rude. Just saying what I thought from what I'd read, which of course may not be accurate either. No one really knows what's going but it's bad either way.
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  • Profile picture of the author derekwong28
    Apparently, Malaysia Airlines is flying over Syria now in order to avoid Ukraine.

    Malaysia Airlines avoids Ukraine, but flies over Syria? - CNN.com
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    • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
      Originally Posted by derekwong28 View Post

      Apparently, Malaysia Airlines is flying over Syria now in order to avoid Ukraine.

      Malaysia Airlines avoids Ukraine, but flies over Syria? - CNN.com
      I could be wrong but the Syrian rebels don't have any anti-aircraft stuff and its one of the primary reasons they're losing the war.

      The Syrian gov is probably being extra, extra careful to make sure it doesn't shoot down anything out of the sky.

      If something flies over Syria it won't be anything that can hurt the Syrian Government's cause and they know it.
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      • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
        Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

        The Syrian gov is probably being extra, extra careful to make sure it doesn't shoot down anything out of the sky.
        Especially as the Syrian government are being backed by the Russians.

        I doubt Putin would want to have two Malaysian aircraft accusations in the same month.

        Another reason the Syrian rebels are losing the war, if they are as Assad doesn't appear to be drawing anything to a close any time soon, is because half the rebel army (ISIS) has invaded Irag and begun setting up an Islamic caliphate.

        Having said that, if they can spare those men, it might suggest Assad isn't doing quite as well as we're being led to believe.
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        • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
          Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

          Especially as the Syrian government are being backed by the Russians.

          I doubt Putin would want to have two Malaysian aircraft accusations in the same month.

          Another reason the Syrian rebels are losing the war, if they are as Assad doesn't appear to be drawing anything to a close any time soon, is because half the rebel army (ISIS) has invaded Irag and begun setting up an Islamic caliphate.

          Having said that, if they can spare those men, it might suggest Assad isn't doing quite as well as we're being led to believe.
          Or Isis wasn't making much headway in Syria so why not see what's happening in Iraq.
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          • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
            Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

            Or Isis wasn't making much headway in Syria so why not see what's happening in Iraq.
            Yup, there is of course that. The Russian backed Syrian army certainly didn't drop their weapons, strip out of their uniforms and run like hell at the start of the conflict.

            Fair point TL.

            Either way though, I suspect Putin has made it very clear to the Syrians to fire at nothing that happens to be in the air, not even a kite.
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              When the plane was shot down much was made of the risk involved in flying over that area and how trying to "save fuel" may have cost people their lives.

              So this week the FAA banned US flights into and out of Israel. Makes sense as a rocket struck just one mile from the Israeli airport a couple days ago.

              To hear Michael Bloomberg and a few other people - we are destroying Israel's valuable tourist trade. That's funny - I thought we were trying to keep US citizens safe. Guess it depends on where you stand when you look at an issue, doesn't it?

              I was amazed watching TV today as they were moving the bodies from the airport in the Netherlands. What a beautiful road that was with straight lines of trees along each side for miles. I was impressed with how neat the route appeared from the helicopter view.
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              • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                And today - the FAA has called off the ban on flights to Israel.

                Because it's safe? No, not necessarily.

                U.S. Lifts Israel Flight Ban - TIME

                Under pressure from Israeli and American officials, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) lifted a temporary ban on flights by American carriers to Tel Aviv's Ben Gurion Airport late on Wednesday night.
                So - a rocket struck one mile from that airport but it's more important to give the impression of "no fear" than to keep airline passengers safe? I guess in this case if the passengers are willing to risk it - whatever....
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                • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
                  I just saw on the news an Air Algerie plan has just vanished.

                  http://www.warriorforum.com/off-topi...goes-awol.html
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                  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                    I just saw that. Planes do go down - but right now anything in that part of the world is suspect for good reason.

                    I was just listening to an American Airlines head guy saying AA will resume flights Israel AFTER the airline decides if it's safe and consults with pilots and flight attendants to see if they are willing to resume the flights.

                    Apparently even though pressure on the FAA (and I think pressure is the right word) from D.C. and Israel (and Bloomberg) says "go" - the airlines are going to weigh the risks carefully. After all - it's the airline that gets sued if a plane goes down.
                    Signature
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                    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
                      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                      I just saw that. Planes do go down - but right now anything in that part of the world is suspect for good reason.

                      I was just listening to an American Airlines head guy saying AA will resume flights Israel AFTER the airline decides if it's safe and consults with pilots and flight attendants to see if they are willing to resume the flights.

                      Apparently even though pressure on the FAA (and I think pressure is the right word) from D.C. and Israel (and Bloomberg) says "go" - the airlines are going to weigh the risks carefully. After all - it's the airline that gets sued if a plane goes down.
                      Trouble with the airport issue is Hamas see it as a great victory that the flights are stopped. It appears they rather liked the Ukrainian approach, ironic seeing as they get very upset when Israel attacks them, after they've fire rockets at them, yet they have no sympathy for a plane being shot out of the sky and think it's a marvellous idea to fire at random planes that have nothing to do with their war.

                      That part of the world fascinates me. So deeply pious and religious and yet so quick to butcher each other. This all started because 3 poor lads were murdered. Israel immediately attacks, then the Palestinian boy gets burned and then the rockets start, the tit for tat nonsense goes on and now no one seems to realise why this all started.

                      I'm glad wars don't start over here every time some dick head decides to kill someone. I'd have thought such divine and religious people who all believe they're gods chosen people might have a better answer to a senseless murder than by retaliating with more murder which we all know leads to endless tit for tat, er, murders. I think the whole of that region is totally loopy and there was me thinking revenge was something forbidden by God/Allah in the first place. Revenge is all they seem to know.

                      I was eating a sausage sandwich earlier and a Muslim girl who works here said she always liked the smell of pork but can't eat it. I told her she should as she won't go to hell. She asked me how I knew that and this is exactly what I said...

                      "If you go to hell for eating pork, that means the only people in heaven are Jews, Muslims and vegetarians, in which case, the vegetarians would have to convert to one or the other then you'd all kill each other over nothing. In which case I'll happily go to hell where it's a bit more peaceful and I can eat sausages if I want"

                      As for the Air Algerie plane, has it come down? All I'm getting is it's vanished from radar and they don't know where it is, like the original Malaysian airlines plane that they can't find.
                      Signature

                      Wibble, bark, my old man's a mushroom etc...

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                    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                      I just saw that. Planes do go down - but right now anything in that part of the world is suspect for good reason.

                      I was just listening to an American Airlines head guy saying AA will resume flights Israel AFTER the airline decides if it's safe and consults with pilots and flight attendants to see if they are willing to resume the flights.

                      Apparently even though pressure on the FAA (and I think pressure is the right word) from D.C. and Israel (and Bloomberg) says "go" - the airlines are going to weigh the risks carefully. After all - it's the airline that gets sued if a plane goes down.
                      The FAAs, and for THAT matter, the US governments ******ONLY****** business is in what the airlines *****CAN'T***** do DOMESTICALLY and how they must do it. The FAA and the federal government can't demand that they fly. Why doesn't AA do what airlines generally do in a case such as that, and fly to a closer hub and have a PARTNER fly the passengers the rest of the way? EL AL would be a good partner.

                      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
    Banned
    Today the US State Department has said (and the Pentagon has also confirmed) the US has proof that Russian artillery is being fired from across the Russian border into Ukraine. They said they have both satellite and radar intelligence that proves Russia has been firing into Ukraine for the past several days. The state department also says they have proof that Russia intends to deliver heavier and more powerful multiple rocket launchers to the separatists.


    The Russian military fired artillery rounds into eastern Ukraine on Thursday, a "clear escalation" of hostilities there, Army Col. Steve Warren, a Pentagon spokesman, said.

    <snip>

    "We have new evidence that the Russians intend to deliver heavier and more powerful multiple rocket launchers to separatist forces in Ukraine and have evidence that Russia is firing artillery from within Russian to attack Ukrainian military positions," State Department spokeswoman Marie Harf told reporters.

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/w...aine/13108615/
    Cheers

    -don
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  • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
    Banned
    This is a fairly decent article on this development and the article also contains plenty of interesting links.

    Russian military forces have fired artillery rounds into eastern Ukraine targeting Ukrainian military positions and plans to send even more heavy multiple rocket launchers to Russian separatists, U.S. officials said for the first time today.

    A Pentagon official labeled the Russian activity as “a clear escalation” of the conflict in that region that has drawn worldwide attention since Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was shot down.

    <snip>

    While officials did not provide a precise time as to when the Russian military began to fire artillery across the border, a U.S. official said it began as early as July 15.

    US Says Russian Military Has Fired Artillery Into Ukraine - ABC News
    Here is a video that supposedly shows GRAD rockets being fired from Russia into Ukraine.


    Cheers

    -don
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

      This is a fairly decent article on this development and the article also contains plenty of interesting links.



      Here is a video that supposedly shows GRAD rockets being fired from Russia into Ukraine.

      Shelling Ukraine with GRAD from Russia! Village Gukovo, Rostov Oblast. - YouTube

      Cheers

      -don
      If russia IS attacking from russia, I'm SHOCKED! They KNOW they are being watched! It is a BAD move! If they simply provided their patriots in crimea with the weapons, they could achieve the same end WITHOUT people finding out so easily.

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author candoit2
    I found some of the points made in this article interesting that doesn't believe Russia did it.

    US Intelligence on Malaysian Flight MH17: Russia Didn
    Signature

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    • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
      Banned
      Originally Posted by AaronJones View Post

      I found some of the points made in this article interesting that doesn't believe Russia did it.
      Back in the day Paul Craig Roberts seemed to be legit or at least semi-legit but I have not believed or agreed with much of what he said for a very long time.

      Let us not forget that this guy is basically a 911 Truther..

      I will begin by stating what we know to be a solid incontrovertible scientific fact. We know that it is strictly impossible for any building, much less steel columned buildings, to "pancake" at free fall speed. Therefore, it is a non-controversial fact that the official explanation of the collapse of the WTC buildings is false... Since the damning incontrovertible fact has not been investigated, speculation and "conspiracy theories" have filled the void.

      Paul Craig Roberts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
      PCR has written a ton of horrible stuff in his day so I see at as many others do --> this guy has become just another America basher and Israel hater.

      Cheers

      -don
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      • Profile picture of the author candoit2
        Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

        Back in the day Paul Craig Roberts seemed to be legit or at least semi-legit but I have not believed or agreed with much of what he said for a very long time.

        Let us not forget that this guy is basically a 911 Truther..



        PCR has written a ton of horrible stuff in his day so I see at as many others do --> this guy has become just another America basher and Israel hater.

        Cheers

        -don
        Maybe you are right, however since you replied concerning his article, would you care to offer any sort of opinion specifically on what was said in that article?

        Forgive me if I seem rude, however it's a bit of a pet peeve of mine when people respond with a personal attack on the author, and use a blanket label to anyone who would agree with him such as "America basher".

        Yet you don't mention any specific point you disagree with, or offer any constructive information on what makes his article incorrect.

        Like I said, it's a pet peeve of mine, and it's a common tactic used as it's so effective. Who really would want to agree with someone labeled as an America basher?

        It may be a nice way to discredit someone without needing to actually disprove anything he said, or even mention anything about what he said.

        You see, this is a discussion forum. I disagreed with something you said, and I offered up an explanation of what I disagreed with and why. It encourages a reply rather than encourages suppression of further discussion on the topic.(He is an American basher, so anyone who agrees is implied to be one also..so no one can counter or may be hesitant to reply)

        At least I see this author go into detail of why he comes to his conclusions.

        This is the first thing I am aware of that I have read from him. I'm not a follower of his by any stretch.

        (I've actually been posting links in this thread that were of the opposite view of who is responsible. I found this one to balance things out).

        However, I tend to find that more credible than if he simply launched a personal attack and labeled all who didn't agree with him as a terrorist etc, while offering nothing else to his article.

        Aaron
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        • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
          Banned
          Originally Posted by AaronJones View Post

          Maybe you are right, however since you replied concerning his article, would you care to offer any sort of opinion specifically on what was said in that article?
          IMO almost the entire article was anti-American garbage.

          Originally Posted by AaronJones View Post

          Forgive me if I seem rude, however it's a bit of a pet peeve of mine when people respond with a personal attack on the author, and use a blanket label to anyone who would agree with him such as "America basher".
          No personal attack, I merely pointed out the fact that the author is a 911 Truther, he is an anti-Israel chap, and he likes to bash America. I also stated I don't believe a lot of what he says these days. I also pointed out that I thought he was a bit more legit back in the days before he started to trash and bash US policy so publicly. Seriously, I don't consider many of the 911 Truthers credible, if any.

          Originally Posted by AaronJones View Post

          Yet you don't mention any specific point you disagree with, or offer any constructive information on what makes his article incorrect.
          I disagree with a lot of his nonsense...he has not posted fact, he has posted nothing but pure unadulterated anti-US policy opinion with a high level vitriol and disdain.

          Originally Posted by AaronJones View Post

          Like I said, it's a pet peeve of mine, and it's a common tactic used as it's so effective. Who really would want to agree with someone labeled as an America basher?
          It's effective in this case because it's true. The guy is a 911 Truther, and anti-Israel guy, and an anti-US policy guy. Why don't you read some of his writings and and do a simple google search? It's not just me that thinks this.

          Originally Posted by AaronJones View Post

          this may be a nice way to discredit someone without needing to actually disprove anything he said, or even mention anything about what he said.
          He has done a very good job of discrediting himself. The fact of the matter is that he is very hard to take seriously these days due to his previous opinions and writings. It's like once you heard Baghdad Bob a few times are you gonna believe Bob very many times after that? The answer is no... The fact is he presented nothing that needs serious rebutting..

          Originally Posted by AaronJones View Post

          You see, this is a discussion forum..
          No shishi, sherlock.

          Originally Posted by AaronJones View Post

          I disagreed with something you said,
          Actually you said "maybe you are right".

          Originally Posted by AaronJones View Post

          and I offered up an explanation of what I disagreed with and why.
          No, you wanted me to start talking politics in a no politics allowed forum by commenting on what exactly I disagreed with. We are not supposed to discuss Obama, Bush and Cheney here in this no politics forum. Maybe you had best look up Paul and get some clarification. For that reason I decided to reply your post by posting the fact that the guy is anti-American policy, he is anti-Israel, and he is a 911 Truther and I don't believe much of what he says these days.

          Originally Posted by AaronJones View Post

          It encourages a reply rather than encourages suppression of further discussion on the topic.(He is an American basher, so anyone who agrees is implied to be one also..so no one can counter or may be hesitant to reply)
          Having trouble dealing with the fact that he is bashes America? Nobody is supressing the topic...if you like the guy then stand up for the guy...I don't give a rats azz!

          Originally Posted by AaronJones View Post

          At least I see this author go into detail of why he comes to his conclusions.
          You call that detail? I call it bias, opinion, nonsense, hallucinations, and anti-American vitriol. But if you like the guy and believe him then fine...more power to you!

          Originally Posted by AaronJones View Post

          This is the first thing I am aware of that I have read from him.
          Obviously.

          Originally Posted by AaronJones View Post

          I'm not a follower of his by any stretch.
          Maybe you could give his opinion proper weight if you would read some of his writings and and are more familiar with some some of his long standing positions.

          Originally Posted by AaronJones View Post

          However, I tend to find that more credible than if he simply launched a personal attack and labeled all who didn't agree with him as a terrorist etc, while offering nothing else to his article.
          He did launch a personal attack on the US Gov, the State Dept Spokesman, the media, the current and former president, the former VP etc. etc. etc Wow...I thought you read the article?

          Good grief...you must have missed all of that. This is exactly why I think even less highly of him now than I did previously. The article is filled with a bunch of hate and opinion. Obviously this guy has disdain for America, the press and the West these days. Maybe he used to like America but he sure does try to bash the US, US citizens, US politicians and US policy these days --> and to be quite frank he does not use a lot of eloquence in his efforts.

          Below this paragraph I have pasted a few quotes I picked out from the article you linked. I am trying not to discuss much politics and these quotes speak for themselves. The fact that this many quotes on this line exist in one small article gives me no reason to believe anything in the article is worth further fact-checking. On top of that I have been following this topic relatively closely and I just don't see anything in the article that is credible that disproves the facts that we already know and/or most of the reasonable conclusions that have already been made.

          The day previously, State Department spokeswoman Marie Harf, one of the Obama regime’s brainless warmonger women, angrily turned on reporters who asked about the Russian government’s official denial of responsibility.
          There you have it. America’s free press. The American press is free to lie for the government, but mustn’t dare exercise any other freedom.
          By continuing to trust a corrupt West
          We can safely conclude that the obfuscations are just beginning
          millions were killed, maimed, and displaced for no other reason than Washington’s lie and rising instability in the Middle East.
          Keep in mind that both the George W. Bush and Obama regimes have also lied through their teeth about “Iranian nukes.”
          Since the corrupt Clinton regime, American journalists have been forced by their bosses to lie for Washington.
          do not think that the United States can recover from the damage inflicted by the neoconservatives who determined the policies of the Clinton, George W. Bush and Obama governments
          retains analysts with integrity even after the purge of the agency ordered by Dick Cheney.
          Washington will never permit official clarification of MH-17
          I hope this is enough forum discussion for you on Mr. Craig. Since you have not read any of his other writings I will link to one for you. Below are a few quotes I have extracted from his Pirates of the Mediterranean.

          Israel, of course, will get away with a mere act of piracy. After all, Israel has been getting away with its war crimes and violations of international law for 60 years. If the UN tries to do anything, the US will veto it, as the US has done for decades.
          Hamas, unlike Israel, is declared to be a terrorist organization by the puppet American State Department in Washington.
          Americans think that they are a superpower, but in fact they are a stupor-power. A puppet state if truth be known.
          So he calls America a stupor-power...witty...but this is the type of statement that I am talking about when I call this guy an America basher.

          Pirates of the Mediterranean - The Unz Review

          Dude might be obsessed with puppets as well, don't you think?

          Cheers

          -don
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

            IMO almost the entire article was anti-American garbage.
            A LOT of people confuse the COUNTRY with the government. I think this is more anti us GOVERNMENT. I would even take umbrage calling it "US"!

            Anyway, I find it hard to believe that russia would openly attack a place likethe Ukraine at such a time. They can simply help their loyalists. Don't forget the open mike incident. They aren't real open about what they are doing.

            Steve
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            • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
              Banned
              Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

              A LOT of people confuse the COUNTRY with the government. I think this is more anti us GOVERNMENT.
              It was also anti-media etc. If he wants to dump on only the government and not the people then he should stop writing cra* like this...

              Americans think that they are a superpower, but in fact they are a stupor-power. A puppet state if truth be known.
              Israel need the Americans’ taxpayers money to that it can create even more enemies, and, therefore, need more American money to spend with the American armament industries to oppress more Palestinians and to make more enemies, requiring more American money to protect Israel from its folly and its evil.

              And the brainwashed American public goes along year after year.
              Not all of the public is brainwashed and he clearly states Americans and not the US Government. Anyway...to each his own.

              Here is a 2010 quote from an obscure blogger on a tiny blog site that I don't read called leavingalexjonestown. The blog supposedly examined claims made by Alex Jones, his guests, and his associates but it pretty much died back in 2010.

              While his anti-war views can be appreciated even by liberals, his other views ... um, not so much. He has spent the last decade shredding the reputation he spent the other 60+ years building. Kinda sad, but also kinda familiar. I mean, Morley Safer is doing infomercials these days. I guess when you reach an advanced age, you get to be a complete moron and no one will call you on it.

              To PCR fans, cheer up: There are plenty more paranoid white guys where he came from.
              You know what? I don't think the gist of that statement is too far from the truth...

              Cheers

              -don
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            • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
              Banned
              Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

              Anyway, I find it hard to believe that russia would openly attack a place likethe Ukraine at such a time. They can simply help their loyalists.

              Steve
              The US State Department released satellite image evidence of Russian artillery fire from Russia into Ukraine. Below is the 4 page document that contains four different image compilations showing ground scarring, Russian self propelled artillery units, crater impacts, blasts marks from MRL fire etc. etc. The images were captured by the highly reputable satellite image company, Digital Globe.

              http://www.npr.org/assets/news/2014/...to-Ukraine.pdf

              Below is one of the images...



              ...make sure you click on the PDF to check the out the rest of the photos.

              Cheers
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

        just another America basher and Israel hater.
        As are MANY "leaders"in the US! The US USED to back ISRAEL! NOW, israel is being told to back down, and give back territory AGAIN, and a US sanctioned action recently gave HAMAS a lot of weapons they left in a school, and $400 MILLION USD!

        Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author candoit2
          Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

          As are MANY "leaders"in the US! The US USED to back ISRAEL! NOW, israel is being told to back down, and give back territory AGAIN, and a US sanctioned action recently gave HAMAS a lot of weapons they left in a school, and $400 MILLION USD!

          Steve
          When you play both sides, profit both ways, and regardless of who wins you are alligned with the victor and inside track on business deals.
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  • Profile picture of the author candoit2
    Now I know why you think what you think, and can understand your perspective. Great response. Thank you.

    Aaron
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  • Profile picture of the author candoit2
    I didn't really notice how excessive his over the top language was in the article.

    I was more focused on what he wrote here:


    Today (July 23) the BBC (the British Brainwashing Corporation) declared: “Whitehall sources say information has emerged that MH17 crash evidence was deliberated tampered with, as the plane’s black boxes arrive in the UK.” After making this claim of tampered with black boxes, the BBC contradicted itself:
    “The Dutch Safety Board, which is leading the investigation, said ‘valid data’ had been downloaded from MH17’s cockpit voice recorder (CVR) which will be ‘further analyzed’. The board said: ‘The CVR was damaged but the memory module was intact. Furthermore no evidence or indications of manipulation of the CVR was found.’”
    The BBC does not tell us how the black boxes are simultaneously in British and Dutch hands, or how they got into British and Dutch hands when the separatists gave the black boxes to the Malaysians with the guarantee that the black boxes would be turned over to the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) for expert and non-politicized examination.
    So where are the black boxes?
    As I write, more confusion is added to the story. It has just come across my screen that Reuters reports that Alexander Khodakovsky,
    “a powerful Ukrainian rebel leader has confirmed that pro-Russian separatists had an anti-aircraft missile of the type Washington says was used to shoot down the Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 and it could have originated in Russia.”
    Reuters says that this separatist commander (or perhaps former commander as later in its report Reuters describes Khodakovsky as “a former head of the ‘Alpha’ anti-terrorism unit of the security service in Donetsk”) is in dispute with other commanders about the conduct of the war.
    Khodakovsky makes clear that he doesn’t know which unit might have had the missile or from where it was fired. He makes it clear that he has no precise or real information. His theory is that the Ukrainian government tricked the separatists into firing the missile by launching airstrikes in the area over which the airliner was flying and by sending military jets to the vicinity of the airliner to create the appearance of military aircraft. Reuters quotes Khodakovsky,
    “”Even if there was a BUK, and even if the BUK was used, Ukraine did everything to ensure that a civilian aircraft was shot down”
    Not knowing the nature of Khodakovsky’s dispute with other commanders or his motivation, it is difficult to assess the validity of his story, but his tale does explain why Ukrainian air control would route the Malaysian airliner over the combat area, a hitherto unexplained decision.
    After the sensational part of its story, Reuters seems to back away a bit. Reuters quotes Khodakovsky saying that the separatist movement has different leaders and “our cooperation is somewhat conditional.” Khodakovsky then becomes uncertain as to whether the separatists did or did not have operational BUK missiles. According to Reuters, Khodakovsky “said none of the BUKs captured from Ukrainian forces were operational.” This implies that Russia provided the working missile to the separatists if such a missile existed.
    I find the separatists’ reply convincing. If we have these missiles why to the fools in Kiev send aircraft to bomb us, and why is their bombing so successful? The separatists do have shoulder fired ground to air missiles of the kind that the US supplied to Afghanistan during the Soviet invasion. These missiles are only capable for low flying aircraft. They cannot reach 33,000 feet.
    According to Reuters, the reporting of its story was by one person, the writing by a second, and the editing by a third. From my experience in journalism, this means that
    we don’t know whose story it is, how the story was changed, or what its reliability might be.
    I found some of the observations he posed here interesting. Does he make a point here?(When he's not ranting about puppets)
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  • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
    Banned
    @Aaron

    I don't find any of it convincing.

    I have read plenty of similar stuff in much more "detail" on sites like global research and rt. The separatists were in control of that region and if you can't fire a missile without hitting the proper enemy aircraft then don't fire the missile.

    The missile clearly came from separatist held territory and negotiations had to be made just to obtain the black boxes from the rebels after the plane was on the ground.

    I for one minute don't believe that Ukrainian air traffic control rerouted the airliner for the purpose of it being be shot down by rebels. Some of this stuff is so far fetched it's ridiculous! Maybe you have read the reports that said the Ukrainians tried to shoot down Putin in his presidential plane but they missed and hit the airliner?

    I tend to stick with what we know...and we know is the rebels controlled the territory, the rebels "secured" the site, the rebels had the black boxes and the rebels are creating quite a mess of Ukraine. And let us not forget the Ukrainians themselves had not fired a single surface to air missile during the entire conflict at that point.

    What do I think?

    I think the rebels were in control of a Russian BUK launcher and they used it to shoot down the airliner....no I don't know exactly who among the rebel forces "pulled the trigger". I doubt they meant to shoot down a commercial airliner, and I am guessing they thought they were shooting down another Ukrainian cargo plane, but tragically they hit the commercial airliner.

    I don't know exactly why they hit the airliner...maybe they thought they had the "routes" for the day in that area --> but since the airliner was rerouted due to weather maybe they got confused and shot it down thinking it was a Ukrainian cargo plane. As I understand it the BUK launcher was operating in stand alone mode so it was not communicating with other equipment in a BUK battalion that could have aided in identifying what they were trying to shoot down.

    Cheers

    -don
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  • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
    Banned
    @ Steve

    Here is PCR in 2012 a week after Hugo Chavez died...

    Washington imperialists and their media and think tank whores expressed gleeful sighs of relief as did the brainwashed US population.

    <snip>

    Washington is not America. Washington is Satan’s home town.

    Chavez was a friend of truth and justice, and this made him unpopular throughout the Western World where every political leader regards truth and justice as dire threats.

    Chavez was a world leader. Unlike US politicians, Chavez was respected throughout the non-western world. He was awarded honorary doctorates from China, Russia, Brazil, and other countries, but not from Harvard, Yale, Cambridge, and Oxford.

    Chavez was a miracle....

    Hugo Chavez -- Paul Craig Roberts - PaulCraigRoberts.org
    Rember ol' sulfer smelling Hugo at the UN?


    This 911 Truther is just too far out there on too many subjects if you ask me. If Washington is Satan's hometown then their must be a lot more entities out their a lot worse than Satan, eh? I have seen this guy call too many segments of the population brainwashed and he appears to like using the word brainwashed as much as he does the word puppet. If you read enough of his writings you will start to get the feeling that according to him everyone in America is badly brainwashed except him.

    Cheers

    -don
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    WOW, CHAVEZ had a LOT of problems "respect" from China, Brazil, and Russia are NOT marks FOR, but AGAINST! China's support of Latin America 'doesn't come for free' | Asia | DW.DE | 17.07.2014

    Venezuela ex-intelligence boss arrested in Aruba | News | DW.DE | 25.07.2014

    Venezuela: United in poverty | Americas | DW.DE | 05.06.2014

    If I were bush, and a guy like chavez called me the DEVIL, ******WOW******! WHAT A COMPLIMENT! When the DEVIL gets SO angry with you and tries to act holier than thou and turn the world against you, you must be doing SOMETHING right! And such people calling others friends is just as meaningful. NAZI germany, italy, japan, and I believe even IRAN, once lauded one another. Ironically, at this point, they are all just as friendly, except for iran,but in the 1940s it was NOT really admiration, but a cooperation in facilitation of a goal.

    Yeah, an evil person telling me that someone is evil doesn't impress me much.

    One of the latest rulers tried to fix prices on goods during a time of inflation. HE, and the public, watched in shocked horror and confusion as the stock simply disappeared!

    Venezuela congress grants President Maduro sweeping new powers | News | DW.DE | 20.11.2013

    I ALSO have a HARD time thinking that anyone is SO stupid that they don't understand basic economics. I mean if you think it is SO easy and cheap and requires SO little effort, DO IT YOURSELF! The market is RIFE with people that did that and came out filthy rich! But THEY had the resources, knew what they had to do and/or paid the money! And if you want high wages, it DOES add to the cost which means a higher price. Price caps limit resources and, sooner or later, SOMETHING will give!

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    It appears as if Russia is not going to allow this transition from their "puppet" state in the Ukraine to a more western friendly government to be easy.

    I thought they would only help the separatists with military aid but it seems they've gone a big step further.
    Signature

    "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

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    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
      Has anyone actually heard Putin condemn the attack or say how tragic he 'thinks' it is? Genuine question, it's just he's the only person, along with the separatists that I haven't heard condemn it.

      Just wondering if anyone else had.
      Signature

      Wibble, bark, my old man's a mushroom etc...

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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        Putin said early on that Russia didn't do this - he can't very well apologize for the separatists and still maintain he is not involved.

        So many of the "breaking news" announcements have not been true in the end. "Stole the black boxes" was the headline - but the boxes were turned over to authorities. "Trying to hide bodies" was another - but the human remains were stored and then turned over.

        I don't think anyone - anywhere - believes this plane was shot down deliberately. It was a mistake by someone - and eventually we'll know what really happened.
        Signature
        Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world will change forever for that one dog.

        I wish offended people would react like fainting goats and quietly tip over.
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        • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          Putin said early on that Russia didn't do this - he can't very well apologize for the separatists and still maintain he is not involved.
          Hi Kay, I didn't mean he had to apologise for anything, I just wondered if anyone had heard him say anything about it being a tragedy. An awful loss of life, as opposed to pointing fingers.

          So many of the "breaking news" announcements have not been true in the end. "Stole the black boxes" was the headline - but the boxes were turned over to authorities. "Trying to hide bodies" was another - but the human remains were stored and then turned over.
          I agree but people answering victims phones with Eastern European accents lends credit to the looting theory. My question was just has anyone heard Putin say it's a sad loss of life. You know, a bit of human remorse for a tragic event with lots of dead children. Not accepting guilt, just that it's an awful loss of life.

          I asked as I realise the news is painting a picture they want me to see..

          I don't think anyone - anywhere - believes this plane was shot down deliberately. It was a mistake by someone - and eventually we'll know what really happened.
          Well yes, shot down by mistake but someone deliberately shot a plane down. Who? No one knows but I was just finding it odd that I hadn't heard Putin or the separatists say how awful it was and how they too are sad that so many innocent adults and countless children were accidentally killed over a war they had nothing to do with.

          I was genuinely wondering if anyone had seen them of expressing a smidgen of human emotion over it. I ask because I suspect that had that been a Russian plane shot down accidentally by Ukrainian forces, or anyone at all, Putin would have been very vocal in his empathy and human emotion with those poor victims and their families, of which I've heard none here.

          That doesn't mean he needs to apologise. No one truly knows what happened but the total lack of remorse for the death of that many people seems a trifle odd and I wondered if anyone elsewhere had seen him do that. I haven't seen it here but I'm pretty certain I get to see what the people in charge of the media here wish me to see.
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          • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
            I was genuinely wondering if anyone had seen them of expressing a smidgen of human emotion over it. I
            I haven't seen Putin express any human emotion about anything except for winning an election Richard.

            Some seem to be fans of his for some reason. Maybe because he goes around without his shirt on, rides horses and acts like a tough guy? Go figure. :/
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            • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
              Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

              I haven't seen Putin express any human emotion about anything except for winning an election Richard.

              Some seem to be fans of his for some reason. Maybe because he goes around without his shirt off, rides horses and acts like a tough guy? Go figure. :/
              He does fishing topless too, with the press handy in case he catches one. Or even gets the line in the water.

              Topless horse riding over here would actually be considered a bit, ummm, gay. This is Britain though and they dress up as toffs on horses instead, so not much better really.

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              • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                I'm not a fan of Putin but I think we make a big mistake when we talk down people we see as enemies or 'not on our side' or 'not our kind'. You will never conquer an enemy unless you understand how he thinks.

                We make a lot of mistakes because we often ignore the "understanding" part and the end result - sometimes years after the fact - is often not what we intended.

                Putin is from a society where being a "man's man" is still valued. Of course the shirtless photos are ego driven - but also good press in his country as the man is over 60.

                I think our errors in judgement are getting worse. We are focused on Putin but he's not a great threat to our way of life. We are focused on "getting rid of HAMAS"in Palestin with no thought of what might come after. Much the same as we did in Iraq and Afghanistan.....

                I think ISIS or ISIL or whatever initials it uses is a far greater threat than Al Qaeda or Gaddafi or Saddam. The countries ruled by dictators remained separate because no dictator wanted to give up his power. Removing a dictator with nothing left in its place (except a concept of self rule that is foreign to the population) opens those countries to a new, powerful, anti-Western movement.

                As one small country after another becomes destabilized - as rebels are armed and looking for support (and not finding that support in the West) - the field of opportunity for a radical Islamic movement grows.

                As for the Malaysian plane - we need to assign blame AFTER we know what happened. Since the Govt forces in Ukraine are now said to be firing ballistic missiles - which we apparently didn't know they have (or did we provide them?) ....the facts are even murkier.
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              • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

                He does fishing topless too, with the press handy in case he catches one. Or even gets the line in the water.

                Topless horse riding over here would actually be considered a bit, ummm, gay. This is Britain though and they dress up as toffs on horses instead, so not much better really.

                It IS funny! In the US, people don't generally make a big deal about riding horses. Most use itas a way of relaxing, or a mode of transportation, and it is probably considered a relatively middle class thing to do, even if, in many areas, it may cost a LOT! People are often dressed rather casually. Some cities even have POLICE on horseback, to some degree!

                But the average movie in the US makes it look like it is considered to be something only the elite and royalty do in great britain. AND, as you said, they DRESS UP!

                As for people liking putin? Well, they DO like comparing the contrast of putin and YKW! I wish I could say more. I EVEN have a great example. It is VERY funny, and true, but, ALAS!

                Steve
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                • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                  Steve -

                  Depends on what you are riding. When I was younger I had a full closet of jodphurs, various boots, formal shirts, hunt coats, hard hats, crops....

                  Not as comfortable as a good old Western saddle - but a lot of fun!
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                  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                    Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                    Steve -

                    Depends on what you are riding. When I was younger I had a full closet of jodphurs, various boots, formal shirts, hunt coats, hard hats, crops....

                    Not as comfortable as a good old Western saddle - but a lot of fun!
                    I DID say GENERALLY! Most races and competitions are more formal. STILL...

                    Steve
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                    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
                      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                      I'm not a fan of Putin but I think we make a big mistake when we talk down people we see as enemies or 'not on our side' or 'not our kind'. You will never conquer an enemy unless you understand how he thinks.

                      We make a lot of mistakes because we often ignore the "understanding" part and the end result - sometimes years after the fact - is often not what we intended.

                      Putin is from a society where being a "man's man" is still valued. Of course the shirtless photos are ego driven - but also good press in his country as the man is over 60.

                      I think our errors in judgement are getting worse. We are focused on Putin but he's not a great threat to our way of life. We are focused on "getting rid of HAMAS"in Palestin with no thought of what might come after. Much the same as we did in Iraq and Afghanistan.....
                      Kay,

                      Just to clarify and I'm not sure if you're directing this at me. I'm just asking if anyone's heard him utter any remorse, as in "I feel for the families that have been destroyed by this tragic accident, whoever did it, be it by accident or not". You know, like the rest of the world has. Not saying that means anything, though I wouldn't expect much emotion from an ex KGB head.

                      As for the top less shirt on horseback modelling trips, come on, I'm allowed to take the piss out of people, I do that about myself enough. I appreciate the Russians love it, just like they probably think the horse riders here are a hit gay wearing what they do. Different strokes for different folks (I think that's the expression anyway)

                      I think ISIS or ISIL or whatever initials it uses is a far greater threat than Al Qaeda or Gaddafi or Saddam. The countries ruled by dictators remained separate because no dictator wanted to give up his power. Removing a dictator with nothing left in its place (except a concept of self rule that is foreign to the population) opens those countries to a new, powerful, anti-Western movement.
                      I agree, ISIS butchers people like pigs in Iraq and not a whiff of Islamaphobia, Israel goes into Gaza and the world kicks off it's anti semitism nonsense though reports here are that it's nearly all Muslims doing the attacks. It also worries me when these people return here, it's not hard to get guns and we saw what happened in Mumbai.

                      As one small country after another becomes destabilized - as rebels are armed and looking for support (and not finding that support in the West) - the field of opportunity for a radical Islamic movement grows.
                      We've been playing into their hands ever since 9/11. We only have to set foot in their lands to increase it. It's what those behind the quest for the Caliphate want, it drives their numbers up in droves. If we help, we lose, if we don't help, we lose.

                      As for the Malaysian plane - we need to assign blame AFTER we know what happened. Since the Govt forces in Ukraine are now said to be firing ballistic missiles - which we apparently didn't know they have (or did we provide them?) ....the facts are even murkier.
                      I agree, I'm not laying blame at all. I'd just like to see if Putin reacts with the same complete lack of compassion if one of his planes or one packed with Russians was accidentally shot down.

                      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                      Steve -

                      Depends on what you are riding. When I was younger I had a full closet of jodphurs, various boots, formal shirts, hunt coats, hard hats, crops....

                      Not as comfortable as a good old Western saddle - but a lot of fun!
                      You'd fit in well here Kay, that's all I ever see horse riders wearing here!
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                      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                        Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

                        Kay,

                        Just to clarify and I'm not sure if you're directing this at me. I'm just asking if anyone's heard him utter any remorse, as in "I feel for the families that have been destroyed by this tragic accident, whoever did it, be it by accident or not". You know, like the rest of the world has. Not saying that means anything, though I wouldn't expect much emotion from an ex KGB head.
                        If he is smart, he will try to stay away from any such display. Your talk later about the moslems explains that.

                        As for the top less shirt on horseback modelling trips, come on, I'm allowed to take the piss out of people, I do that about myself enough. I appreciate the Russians love it, just like they probably think the horse riders here are a hit gay wearing what they do. Different strokes for different folks (I think that's the expression anyway)
                        GEE, some here try to make YKW sound so great. Putin is just giving them something more realistic to judge by. I don't know if that was his original goal, but it is working.


                        We've been playing into there hands ever since 9/11. We only have to set foot in their lands to increase it. It's what those behind the quest for the Caliphate want, it drives their numbers up in droves. If we help, we lose, if we don't help, we lose.
                        YEP!

                        I agree, I'm not laying blame at all. I'd just like to see if Putin reacts with the same complete lack of compassion if one of his planes or one packed with Russians was accidentally shot down.
                        The old communist ideal is to talk down every foe, make them look bad, and show NO real emotion. On the OTHER hand, if it is YOUR country, or people, you cry like a baby, and promise retaliation. So if they knew that russian citizens were there, you could bet he would react.

                        You'd fit in well here Kay, that's all I ever see horse riders wearing here!
                        YEP! HEY, nobody is faulting the appearance, etc.... Jodphurs also sound very functional. Maybe they even wanted to emulate it. And YEAH, Kay was making that point. I said that Americans generally DON'T, and she said "I DID!".

                        Steve
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                        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                          You'd fit in well here Kay,
                          That's hilarious because for many years growing up and as a young adult I really thought I should have been a Brit!
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                          • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                            That's hilarious because for many years growing up and as a young adult I really thought I should have been a Brit!
                            Yea, I remember you saying you wish we had a king.
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                            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                              Actually, what I said was "I think it would be cool to have a Queen". I still think that as I love the tradition and the pomp associated with royalty.

                              Of course, when I wished I had been born in the UK - I also wanted it to be back before people drove cars so I ride horses at all times

                              I didn't say it was a realistic wish.
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              • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
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