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I don't think you can TRULY say your against the Death Penalty until it happens to a loved one

by discrat
46 replies
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( Note : Sorry Iam being a little prolific today on Forums as I have been on vacation for last 2.5 weeks and am sitting here while my wife takes both children to the walk in clinic.)

I have struggled with this on and off for the past 25 years of my Life or so.

When I was younger I was really a proponent for the Death Penalty. Then after a few years I was against it and then another few years for it.

And the last number of years I have been against it.

I know it is a bit schizophrenic . It is really the only political issue that I have had this much indecisiveness over the last couple of decades. its crazy !

But as I have said I have become a staunch opponent of the Death Penalty the last half decade or so.

But in the last few days the struggle in my soul has arisen again !

The guy in Arizona who had the botched Execution and he struggled and suffered for like two hours before he died.

I was thinking to myself " wow, what a tragedy ,the poor guy "

But then the daughter of one of his victims came forward and said the pain he went through was nothing like the pain her sister and father ( I believe) went through in a pool of blood after he slaughtered them.

This got me to thinking what would happen if this was my Wife or daughter who were the victims?

I can honestly say I would probably want him to suffer.

God, forgive me.

But I think that is probably the real true gut reaction I would have.
  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    and suffered for like two hours
    Not sure about the suffered part - as those who were not trying to generate sympathy for him said he wasn't conscious.

    He killed two people - was seen doing it - violated a restraining order - and lived 25 years fighting his death sentence after he killed them. No sympathy here.

    Question I have is why we can't bring ourselves to use stronger poisons or drug overdoses - or use firing squads and get the job done.
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    • Profile picture of the author discrat
      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

      Not sure about the suffered part - as those who were not trying to generate sympathy for him said he wasn't conscious.

      He killed two people - was seen doing it - violated a restraining order - and lived 25 years fighting his death sentence after he killed them. No sympathy here.

      Question I have is why we can't bring ourselves to use stronger poisons or drug overdoses - or use firing squads and get the job done.
      Yeah, people just have misconceptions about the Firing Squad. It actually is probably one of the most humane and quickest ways to kill a person. More so than electrocution....... that is for sure.
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  • Profile picture of the author Yvon Boulianne
    death sentence put us at the same level as the one that did the crime, it's not good at all, barbaric society.

    Just put them in jail forever, that's worst than dying anyway!!!
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    • Profile picture of the author discrat
      Originally Posted by Yvon Boulianne View Post

      death sentence put us at the same level as the one that did the crime, it's not good at all, barbaric society.

      Just put them in jail forever, that's worst than dying anyway!!!

      Yvon, I hear you.I tend agree with you. I am just a roll a coaster wreck with this issue.

      Let me present this angle for you...................

      You know who Tommy Sells is ? He was one of the most monstrous psychopathic killers ever. He just got executed in Texas this past year.

      The guy sat in his Cell for many years gloating about all the barbaric murderers he committed on women and children. Even on Nightline. Check out Youtube.

      He loved talking about the rush he got when he cut two teenager girls throats from ear to ear as he watched their eyes roll back in their heads .( he randomly picked them out in a trailer park and snuck in their rooms at night thru an open window).

      Oh yeah what about the time ole tommy boy randomly stabbed a woman by her pool and when she was dying she went in Labor and had her baby right there. And then the outstanding citizen that Tommy was, he proceeded to stab that newborn to death from mommies womb as well. And then finished the job by slaughtering hubbie when he got home

      Let me ask you this..........would you find much closure if you knew such a barbarian like this was alive in prison joyfully reminiscing on a constant basis ( many times to the Media) about how he butchered to pieces your daughter or son or mom ??

      Kind of keeps it in perspective doesn't it ?
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Originally Posted by Yvon Boulianne View Post

      death sentence put us at the same level as the one that did the crime, it's not good at all, barbaric society.

      Just put them in jail forever, that's worst than dying anyway!!!
      Yeah I guess that sucks. Three free meals a day, free room, free medical, free clothing, free TV, free gym.
      Plus the victims loved ones get free grief, free nightmares.
      If a person murders someone and they are guilty without any doubt, all they deserve is a free death.
      If there is any doubt, maybe they shouldn't be in prison at all.
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Here's the problem with life in prison.

        It costs a lot of money, So here we are spending all this money on some slime ball who committed cold blooded murder.

        I say an eye for an eye. More people should be executed. We need to clean up this world of all the truly evil people, especially if they are in prison with no chance of parole ever. Why waste money on these scum when we could be spending that money on something like finding a cure for AIDS or something like that.

        I say death to them all.

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        • Profile picture of the author discrat
          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          Here's the problem with life in prison.

          It costs a lot of money, So here we are spending all this money on some slime ball who committed cold blooded murder.
          Actually, this is incorrect. It is more costly ( with our current system)) to afford prisoners, who are given the death penalty, death row status up until date of execution than it is with a traditional prison sentence.
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            Originally Posted by discrat View Post

            Actually, this is incorrect. It is more costly ( with our current system)) to afford prisoners, who are given the death penalty, death row status up until date of execution than it is with a traditional prison sentence.
            Then the system needs to change. If convicted and the jury votes for the death penalty, execution should happen immediately.

            I'm talking about the blatant absolutely no doubt cases where there were witnesses, where the person confessed, where it was so obvious that there was literally no doubt. I don't know how many of those cases actually exist, but whatever number they are, those people should be put to death right away. None of this 12 years on death row crap.

            You walk into a bank, you blow away half a dozen people, you're caught in the act by bank cameras and the police and you're toast. No waiting around. Done, finished.

            That's what we need to do and we need to do it ASAP.
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            • Profile picture of the author discrat
              Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

              Then the system needs to change. If convicted and the jury votes for the death penalty, execution should happen immediately.

              I'm talking about the blatant absolutely no doubt cases where there were witnesses, where the person confessed, where it was so obvious that there was literally no doubt. I don't know how many of those cases actually exist, but whatever number they are, those people should be put to death right away. None of this 12 years on death row crap.

              You walk into a bank, you blow away half a dozen people, you're caught in the act by bank cameras and the police and you're toast. No waiting around. Done, finished.

              That's what we need to do and we need to do it ASAP.
              I don't necessarily disagree with this.

              But as Alexa stated things could really run amok with people being hastily wheeled off to the lethal injection room and are found out to be totally innocent later on.

              You have to protect people, even the seemingly guilty ones, with due process. In the long run, this ensures protection to the innocent as a whole.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by Yvon Boulianne View Post

      death sentence put us at the same level as the one that did the crime, it's not good at all, barbaric society.

      Just put them in jail forever, that's worst than dying anyway!!!
      Do you realize what you just said?

      You said that if a decent husband was feet away from another guy and that guy decides to beat his wife and try to raoe her, the "decent husband" should do NOTHING!!!!!!!!!! WHY? Because if he dares to hit the rapist, he becomes as bad as the rapist!

      What a STUPID way of looking at things. Why shouldn't the guy help a decent person out? Why shouldn't he PROTECT HIS FAMILY!?!?!?!?

      There comes a time when an attack or even KILLING is the RIGHT and ONLY decent thing to do.

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
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    Originally Posted by discrat View Post

    When I was younger I was really a proponent for the Death Penalty. Then after a few years I was against it and then another few years for it.

    And the last number of years I have been against it.
    We gave it up, over here, in the 1960's, after a long history of accidentally executing the wrong people because our legal system ("envy of the world" though it's alleged to be) wasn't quite perfect, after all.
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    I would be 100% for the death penalty if the legal system were perfect and never made a mistake. However, that is not the case and innocent people are put to death.

    As for the the botched up executions, a simple solution is reinstate the use of a firing squad. It's fast and certain.
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    • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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      I suggest you take a long, hard look at the countries that still carry out the death penalty and then ask yourself if you want to be a member of that club.

      No one is saying that these individuals don't deserve to die, but no matter how you try to justify it, it is nothing more than a barbaric act that must end. All you Christians should know better. "Vengeance is mine," sayeth the Lord. There's nothing worse than selective Christianity. It does nothing more than point out what hypocrites people can be. You either believe in the teachings of the Bible or you don't. It, like the Constitution is NOT an ala carte menu. Period!

      Frank
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      • Profile picture of the author discrat
        Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

        I suggest you take a long, hard look at the countries that still carry out the death penalty and then ask yourself if you want to be a member of that club.

        No one is saying that these individuals don't deserve to die, but no matter how you try to justify it, it is nothing more than a barbaric act that must end. All you Christians should know better. "Vengeance is mine," sayeth the Lord. There's nothing worse than selective Christianity. It does nothing more than point out what hypocrites people can be. You either believe in the teachings of the Bible or you don't. It, like the Constitution is NOT an ala carte menu. Period!

        Frank

        Hey Frank. Better you than me to bring this up. This is the reason why I have been a staunch opponent of the Death Penalty the last 5 years because of my Faith.

        But that being said we are human beings...Christians, Atheists, Hindus etc...etc..

        We ALL sin and when it comes down to it I want to believe my Beliefs would rule the day.

        But when I think of certain scenarios I am just not sure if my founded Beliefs would win out.

        I may be hypocritical or maybe Iam just a "baby" in my Convictions.

        I would like to think not. But it certainly is a struggle with me.

        I have to admit and be honest
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        • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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          Originally Posted by discrat View Post

          Hey Frank. Better you than me to bring this up.
          Yeah - the unpopular stance is generally where I stake-out my territory. I stopped caring what people think about me at my second pacemaker and I'm now on my third. The liberating effect that has on oneself is a thing of joy. lol
          This is the reason why I have been a staunch opponent of the Death Penalty the last 5 years because of my Faith.

          But that being said we are human beings...Christians, Atheists, Hindus etc...etc..

          We ALL sin and when it comes down to it I want to believe my Beliefs would rule the day.
          If you're going to be a believer than you have to look to your faith for strength in your weaker moments. That's the goal. That's what I'm told, anyway.
          But when I think of certain scenarios I am just not sure if my founded Beliefs would win out.

          I may be hypocritical or maybe Iam just a "baby" in my Convictions.

          I would like to think not. But it certainly is a struggle with me.

          I have to admit and be honest
          It's supposed to be a struggle. That's the whole point of maintaining a belief system.

          Cheers. - Frank
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      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
        Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

        I suggest you take a long, hard look at the countries that still carry out the death penalty and then ask yourself if you want to be a member of that club.

        No one is saying that these individuals don't deserve to die, but no matter how you try to justify it, it is nothing more than a barbaric act that must end. All you Christians should know better. "Vengeance is mine," sayeth the Lord. There's nothing worse than selective Christianity. It does nothing more than point out what hypocrites people can be. You either believe in the teachings of the Bible or you don't. It, like the Constitution is NOT an ala carte menu. Period!

        Frank
        What do you call it when someone murders a child or adult for that matter in cold blood?
        Everyone in this thread has stipulated there can be no doubt that the person committed murder. That requires much more then circumstantial evidence, it requires witnesses, video, or a confession.
        Also you are assuming that all of us that believe in a death penalty for those who are 100% guilty of murder (with no doubt) are Christians.
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        • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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          Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

          What do you call it when someone murders a child or adult for that matter in cold blood?
          I call that a heinous act, but that does not give me the right to seek revenge.
          Everyone in this thread has stipulated there can be no doubt that the person committed murder. That requires much more then circumstantial evidence, it requires witnesses, video, or a confession.
          So, to your way of thinking that's all that's required to lower yourself to the same level as the accused. Well, you can go there if you choose. I'll pass on that, thank you. It may be a trite cliché, but if there was ever an instance of two wrongs not making a right, this would be my prime example. Hey, but this is America. If it makes you feel good - go for it.
          Also you are assuming that all of us that believe in a death penalty for those who are 100% guilty of murder (with no doubt) are Christians.
          Nope. What I'm saying is there is nothing harder to get people to say about themselves than that they are not Christians. Atheists are the last remaining unprotected class as evidenced by the fact they most people say that they would never vote for an atheist to be president and it's easier to get a person to admit to almost anything you can think of - but being an atheist - never.

          I'm not looking to change your mind on the topic, just illuminating why I'll never share your point of view. Now - this is where you hit me with that tired comeback - if it were a member of my family, I'd be singing a different tune. That would do nothing more than demonstrate that you don't know anything about me or my moral convictions. Being a feeling person of course my immediate reaction would be to want revenge, but I have enough personal fortitude that given the opportunity, I would not ask for it.

          Cheers. - Frank
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          • Profile picture of the author ThomM
            Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

            I call that a heinous act, but that does not give me the right to seek revenge.
            So, to your way of thinking that's all that's required to lower yourself to the same level as the accused. Well, you can go there if you choose. I'll pass on that, thank you. It may be a trite cliché, but if there was ever an instance of two wrongs not making a right, this would be my prime example. Hey, but this is America. If it makes you feel good - go for it.
            Nope. What I'm saying is there is nothing harder to get people to say about themselves than that they are not Christians. Atheists are the last remaining unprotected class as evidenced by the fact they most people say that they would never vote for an atheist to be president and it's easier to get a person to admit to almost anything you can think of - but being an atheist - never.

            I'm not looking to change your mind on the topic, just illuminating why I'll never share your point of view. Now - this is where you hit me with that tired comeback - if it were a member of my family, I'd be singing a different tune. That would do nothing more than demonstrate that you don't know anything about me or my moral convictions. Being a feeling person of course my immediate reaction would be to want revenge, but I have enough personal fortitude that given the opportunity, I would not ask for it.

            Cheers. - Frank
            I wouldn't say that. I can think of a few other religions besides atheism that if a person claimed to be a part of would never get elected.
            I conceder myself more of a Pagan then anything else, though I really don't like to be pigeon holed into any religion.
            Hence my choice of Pagan because it is more of an umbrella term for a variety of beliefs.

            I'm not looking to change your mind on the topic, just illuminating why I'll never share your point of view.
            Fair enough, as I'm not trying to change your mind either just giving my point of view.
            Like I said I only support the death penalty if there is absolutely no doubt of the persons guilt. I'd even go so far as to say only if it was premeditated murder.
            If a person can actually plan to murder someone and carry it out, putting them to death isn't revenge. Prisoners escape all the time. For example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_A..._prison_escape
            Right there two people would possibly be alive today if three convicted murders where executed.
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            • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
              Leaving aside any moral arguments, I've always found it hard to get past the glaring philosophical inconsistency in which a society attempts to demonstrate its utter abhorrence for the heinous act of taking a human life - by institutionalizing, in solemn ritual, the taking of a human life.
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              • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

                Leaving aside any moral arguments, I've always found it hard to get past the glaring philosophical inconsistency in which a society attempts to demonstrate its utter abhorrence for the heinous act of taking a human life - by institutionalizing, in solemn ritual, the taking of a human life.
                I don't really see it as being inconsistent.
                The person who will commit murder isn't usually murdering someone who has murdered someone.
                Whereas if you execute someone who has murdered someone else, you are eliminating someone who has taken a life and preventing them from doing it again. Life in prison is no guarantee that person won't murder again.
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                • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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                  Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                  I don't really see it as being inconsistent.
                  The person who will commit murder isn't usually murdering someone who has murdered someone.
                  Whereas if you execute someone who has murdered someone else, you are eliminating someone who has taken a life and preventing them from doing it again. Life in prison is no guarantee that person won't murder again.
                  Pure, claptrap, or if you prefer - drivel. Trying to rationalize a ludicrous concept with a whole lot of meaningless words. Seriously. That was so weak it's laughable.

                  It's just so much easier to say, "I got nuthin'."

                  Cheers. - Frank
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                • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                  I must say that if you believe in "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth", then a life for a life does follow suit.

                  I'm not sure how I feel about the death penalty, honestly. Sometimes I do think it fitting, sometimes I don't. However, in going in line with the eye for an eye train of thought, I honestly believe a rapist should be castrated.

                  Just being honest...


                  Terra
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                • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
                  Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                  The person who will commit murder isn't usually murdering someone who has murdered someone.
                  So the value of a human life is dependent on the actions of a person, not on the life itself?

                  Whereas if you execute someone who has murdered someone else, you are eliminating someone who has taken a life and preventing them from doing it again.
                  True. Prevention is one result. But to call it justice, you'd have to accept that taking a human life is, in itself, a valid action.
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                  • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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                    Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

                    So the value of a human life is dependent on the actions of a person, not on the life itself?

                    True. Prevention is one result. But to call it justice, you'd have to accept that taking a human life is, in itself, a valid action.
                    You seem to miss their point, Frank. It's not OK for you to kill someone, but it's OK for society to do it in your name. That's called 'twisted logic,' but we excel at that. lol

                    F.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                      I'll take that as a compliment.
                      It wasn't one. You make snide remarks to those who dare to have a different view - and you come across as a bully.

                      I don't argue with those who are against the death penalty as I've gone back and forth on it myself. I respect anyone who thinks through an issue enough to form a personal opinion about it.
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                      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                        Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

                        Pure, claptrap, or if you prefer - drivel. Trying to rationalize a ludicrous concept with a whole lot of meaningless words. Seriously. That was so weak it's laughable.

                        It's just so much easier to say, "I got nuthin'."

                        Cheers. - Frank
                        Really you're the one that's got nuthin if that's what you have to say.
                        Let me guess you think Bin Liden shouldn't of been killed or Hussain shouldn't of been hung.


                        Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

                        Just what would you do without Wikipedia which can be used in one way or another to support any ridiculous claim imaginable.

                        End of this conversation if all you are going to do is hurl BS.

                        F.
                        Frank that was all over the news when it happened. Just because you don't like facts that support an opposite view doesn't mean they're still not facts.

                        Both your comments show a common tactic. You can't dispute what I said with any facts so instead you just attack me and what I said. In other words you're the one hurling BS, cause that's all you got.
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                  • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                    Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

                    So the value of a human life is dependent on the actions of a person, not on the life itself?

                    True. Prevention is one result. But to call it justice, you'd have to accept that taking a human life is, in itself, a valid action.
                    How much value is there in a person who will take another persons life, simply because the other person is alive?
                    Everyday we have the opportunity to murder someone and we don't because we value live. A person who does murder another doesn't value life. Ending that life isn't murder it's protecting other lives.
                    Funny but everyone cheered when Bin Liden was killed. Nobody shed a tear when Hussein was hung.
                    I've never heard anybody say it was wrong to hang the Nazis who where found guilty at the Nuremberg trials
                    So who is it really that doesn't value human life?
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                    • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
                      Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                      How much value is there in a person who will take another persons life, simply because the other person is alive?
                      Everyday we have the opportunity to murder someone and we don't because we value live. A person who does murder another doesn't value life. Ending that life isn't murder it's protecting other lives.
                      That's a strong argument, Thom. Sacrificing an individual for the sake of the group is a valid biological response, and examples of such activity occur throughout nature.

                      I don't believe morality is ever black and white.
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                      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                        Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

                        That's a strong argument, Thom. Sacrificing an individual for the sake of the group is a valid point, and examples of such activity occur throughout nature.

                        I don't believe morality is ever black and white.
                        Ain't that the truth
                        In the context of what we're talking about I've been having a hell of a time trying to explain the difference.
                        I'm against taking a human life, but when someone proves (by taking a life) that they aren't against taking a life then I conceder them a threat to my life and any humans life who might come in contact with them. That includes other prisoners they may be housed with, prison guards, etc. If they're already serving life in prison what else are you going to do to them if they continue to murder?
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                        • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
                          Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                          In the context of what we're talking about I've been having a hell of a time trying to explain the difference.
                          Don't worry - I think you managed it with this:

                          How much value is there in a person who will take another persons life, simply because the other person is alive?
                          Everyday we have the opportunity to murder someone and we don't because we value live. A person who does murder another doesn't value life. Ending that life isn't murder it's protecting other lives.


                          There are so many facets to this issue - I think my real revulsion lies in the ritualization of the process. The underlying motives, I can find more bearable.
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                          • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                            Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

                            Don't worry - I think you managed it with this:



                            There are so many facets to this issue - I think my real revulsion lies in the ritualization of the process. The underlying motives, I can find more bearable.
                            I'm not fond of that either. If you have to execute someone, do it quick and quietly. The only witness needed is a doctor and if requested a priest.
                            Also please don't think that I enjoy the fact that I think the death penalty is necessary. I'd be a lot happier if certain people didn't create the need for it or the need for life in prison (for those who don't agree with the death penalty).
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                            • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
                              From another thread,

                              Hospital worker infects 46 people with hepatitis C. Or why I favor the death penalty.

                              Kwiatkowski, 34, was a cardiac technologist in 18 hospitals in seven states before being hired at New Hampshire's Exeter Hospital in 2011. He had moved from job to job despite being fired at least four times over allegations of drug use and theft. Since his arrest last year, 46 people have been diagnosed with the same strain of hepatitis C he carries.
                              Really?

                              Really?!

                              Defense lawyers argued that a 30-year sentence would better balance the seriousness of the crimes against Kwiatkowski's mental and emotional problems and his addiction to drugs and alcohol, which they said clouded his judgment.
                              I would argue that a quick execution would end Mr. Kwiatkowski's mental and emotional problems, end his addiction to drugs and alcohol, and end his clouded judgment.

                              NH Hospital Worker Gets 39 Years In Hepatitis Case : NPR

                              That thread is here,

                              http://www.warriorforum.com/off-topi...h-penalty.html

                              Joe Mobley
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                              • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                                Originally Posted by Joe Mobley View Post

                                From another thread,

                                Hospital worker infects 46 people with hepatitis C. Or why I favor the death penalty.

                                Really?

                                Really?!

                                I would argue that a quick execution would end Mr. Kwiatkowski's mental and emotional problems, end his addiction to drugs and alcohol, and end his clouded judgment.

                                NH Hospital Worker Gets 39 Years In Hepatitis Case : NPR

                                That thread is here,

                                http://www.warriorforum.com/off-topi...h-penalty.html

                                Joe Mobley
                                I had to read through the thread to see if I commented
                                Kwiatkowski's mental and emotional problems and his addiction to drugs and alcohol, which they said clouded his judgment.
                                If I was the judge my first words would be "DO YOU THINK?"
                                But all that is treatable and he didn't commit premeditated murder. He could be rehabilitated.
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              • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

                Leaving aside any moral arguments, I've always found it hard to get past the glaring philosophical inconsistency in which a society attempts to demonstrate its utter abhorrence for the heinous act of taking a human life - by institutionalizing, in solemn ritual, the taking of a human life.
                Is it philosophically inconsistent if society tells a murderer ahead of time the penalty for their crimes? You kill someone > We kill you. Do as you choose.

                Society isn't murdering at random and it isn't actively murdering an innocent person. To me, therein lies the difference. The murderer chose his fate. Society carries it out.
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                • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                  Society carries it out.
                  That's fine. Just don't lump me in with the rest of society. I have never asked that anyone be killed for whatever reason, in my name. If that works for you, so be it. I will not join you in that.

                  F.
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                • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
                  Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                  Is it philosophically inconsistent if society tells a murderer ahead of time the penalty for their crimes? You kill someone > We kill you. Do as you choose.
                  It's inconsistent if a society's stated intention is to uphold the sanctity of human life.

                  Society isn't murdering at random and it isn't actively murdering an innocent person. To me, therein lies the difference.
                  Not all murders are random. Society is actively taking a life (innocent or otherwise) and putting that action forward as a solution. That diminishes the value of life, regardless of the motive.

                  The murderer chose his fate. Society carries it out.
                  That's a circular argument. The murderer would only "choose his fate" if the death penalty existed.
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                  • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

                    So the value of a human life is dependent on the actions of a person, not on the life itself?
                    Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

                    It's inconsistent if a society's stated intention is to uphold the sanctity of human life.

                    Not all murders are random. Society is actively taking a life (innocent or otherwise) and putting that action forward as a solution. That diminishes the value of life, regardless of the motive.
                    Almost sounds like an anti-abortion argument...
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            • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
              Banned
              Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

              I wouldn't say that. I can think of a few other religions besides atheism that if a person claimed to be a part of would never get elected.
              I conceder myself more of a Pagan then anything else, though I really don't like to be pigeon holed into any religion.
              Hence my choice of Pagan because it is more of an umbrella term for a variety of beliefs.

              Fair enough, as I'm not trying to change your mind either just giving my point of view.
              Like I said I only support the death penalty if there is absolutely no doubt of the persons guilt. I'd even go so far as to say only if it was premeditated murder.
              If a person can actually plan to murder someone and carry it out, putting them to death isn't revenge. Prisoners escape all the time. For example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_A..._prison_escape
              Right there two people would possibly be alive today if three convicted murders where executed.
              Just what would you do without Wikipedia which can be used in one way or another to support any ridiculous claim imaginable.

              End of this conversation if all you are going to do is hurl BS.

              F.
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
        Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

        We gave it up, over here, in the 1960's, after a long history of accidentally executing the wrong people because our legal system ("envy of the world" though it's alleged to be) wasn't quite perfect, after all.
        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        I would be 100% for the death penalty if the legal system were perfect and never made a mistake. However, that is not the case and innocent people are put to death.
        The number one reason I am opposed to the death penalty right there.

        Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

        I suggest you take a long, hard look at the countries that still carry out the death penalty and then ask yourself if you want to be a member of that club.

        No one is saying that these individuals don't deserve to die, but no matter how you try to justify it, it is nothing more than a barbaric act that must end. All you Christians should know better. "Vengeance is mine," sayeth the Lord. There's nothing worse than selective Christianity. It does nothing more than point out what hypocrites people can be. You either believe in the teachings of the Bible or you don't. It, like the Constitution is NOT an ala carte menu. Period!

        Frank
        I agree with your first paragraph.

        As for the "selective Christianity" comment - the "selectiveness" exists in all religions. All political viewpoints too. I don't know anyone who 100% follows any religion.

        I am a Christian - but severely lapsed. The biggest reason is due to the rampant hypocrisy, but other reasons as well.

        In any event, before anyone asks how I would feel if it were my wife, kids, etc - the honest answer is I really don't know. Perhaps I would rally to have the scumbag put to death - but I would LIKE to think I am above that.

        I pray I never have to find out.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          There's nothing worse than selective Christianity.
          I don't know - I think people who set themselves up as being qualified to judge the "faith" level of others....come close.

          It's good people don't agree about the death penalty as it makes us think about it and re-examine their own beliefs at times.
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          • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            I don't know - I think people who set themselves up as being qualified to judge the "faith" level of others....come close.
            I'll take that as a compliment. I'm not judging. Facts are facts. If you believe in the death=penalty you are practicing 'selective-Christianity." I hope you feel Christian like in taking a shot at me. lol So predictable. Just stating what I have observed over a lifetime. The people in my life who consider themselves 'good Christians,' are the most un-Christian people I have ever met.
            It's good people don't agree about the death penalty as it makes us think about it and re-examine their own beliefs at times.
            Correct. I used to be 100% in favor of the death penalty. As a matter of fact I believed that people should be executed in the same precise manner in the way that they took a life. I'm glad that I have evolved on the subject.

            There's hope for you, yet.

            Cheers. - Frank
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      • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
        Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

        There's nothing worse than selective Christianity.
        I'm sorry, selective Christianity is the only kind there can be.

        Over here it says "an eye for an eye." Over there it says "forgive your enemies." What the hell is that?!

        Of course, if you don't believe "forgive your enemies", those same Christians (filled with brotherly love) have no trouble with calling people names... like "hypocrites."

        Joe Mobley
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      • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
        Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

        I suggest you take a long, hard look at the countries that still carry out the death penalty and then ask yourself if you want to be a member of that club.

        No one is saying that these individuals don't deserve to die, but no matter how you try to justify it, it is nothing more than a barbaric act that must end. All you Christians should know better. "Vengeance is mine," sayeth the Lord. There's nothing worse than selective Christianity. It does nothing more than point out what hypocrites people can be. You either believe in the teachings of the Bible or you don't. It, like the Constitution is NOT an ala carte menu. Period!

        Frank
        That is one of the most ignorant statements I've seen from you, which is no mean feat. This isn't the first time you've taken words from the Christian Bible completely out of context to attempt to twist them to your own purpose - to deride the Christian faithful.

        You have no clue what the teachings of the Bible are and, obviously, not the slightest knowledge of Christian theology. I would enlighten you as to what Paul was talking about in his letter to the Romans, but I suspect the effort would be wasted.

        I do rather enjoy your boorish displays of willful ignorance, though. By all means, carry on.
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