I am confused.

9 years ago

Originally Posted by HN

I stared a thread about learning foreign vocabulary a few days ago. It was moved to copywriting section and when I pointed out it has nothing to do with copywriting it just vanished. I figured OT was the correct section.

My original question was, what's the best way in your opinion to acquire foreign vocabulary and why.
1. In order the words appear in a textbook or a novel that you might use to learn language.
2. By learning most frequent words first
3. In alphabetic order

So, where the hell would this topic fit if anywhere?

With your local librarian, I would imagine.

Terra

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seasoned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by MissTerraK

With your local librarian, I would imagine.

Terra

HOW do you figure!?!?!?
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- MissTerraK 9 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by seasoned
  
  HOW do you figure!?!?!?
  
  There are tons and tons of books on foreign language in the library and therefore, she could direct him where to go to find what topics he is looking for.
  
  See?
  
  Easy Peasy!
  
  If the local library is lacking, then a good University library would be the next step.
  
  Terra
  
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Frank Donovan

9 years ago

Originally Posted by HN

My original question was, what's the best way in your opinion to acquire foreign vocabulary and why.
1. In order the words appear in a textbook or a novel that you might use to learn language.
2. By learning most frequent words first
3. In alphabetic order

None of the above. The best way is to spend time in the country whose language you're trying to learn. If that's not possible, find native speakers and spend time in their company. Much faster than learning from textbooks.

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HeySal

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Frank Donovan

None of the above. The best way is to spend time in the country whose language you're trying to learn. If that's not possible, find native speakers and spend time in their company. Much faster than learning from text books.

.

Tu a bon raison.

Yep - I probably slaughtered the spelling.

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Sal
When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
Beyond the Path

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Frank Donovan 9 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Tu a bon raison.

Yep - I probably slaughtered the spelling.

Tu as bien raison. French for: You're darn tootin' .

(Not from a textbook ).

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HN

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Frank Donovan

None of the above. The best way is to spend time in the country whose language you're trying to learn. If that's not possible, find native speakers and spend time in their company. Much faster than learning from textbooks.
.

How much faster? Any specific numbers?

And in which order do you learn vocabulary with native speakers? You didn't really answer the question. In random order? Most importantly, why is it a preferred method?

Originally Posted by MissTerraK

With your local librarian, I would imagine.

Terra

Originally Posted by rickdangelo

When you're trying to learn a foreign language, its always the best to either find a friend who know the language or learn it with someone, that way the retention would be easier because you have someone to use the language with other than the textbook or learning software in front of you. Good luck!

I wasn't actually looking for advice, but for opinions. In which order is it best to acquire vocabulary and why?

For example, why not in alphabetical order?

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Frank Donovan

9 years ago

Originally Posted by HN

How much faster? Any specific numbers?

And in which order do you learn vocabulary with native speakers? You didn't really answer the question. In random order? Most importantly, why is it a preferred method?

I think you misunderstand. Learning a language is not a competitive sport. Focusing on numbers and order is not the optimum method of acquiring a useful vocabulary.

The reason why immersing yourself in the culture and company of native speakers is more effective, is because of how the brain processes and assimilates language. We hear, we repeat, and we practise.

.

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HN

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Frank Donovan

Focusing on numbers and order is not the optimum method of acquiring a useful vocabulary..

Why not? Please explain.

Originally Posted by Frank Donovan

because that's how the brain processes and assimilates language..

Why? How do you know?

You are right that children first learn to comprehend, then speak, then read, and then write. They usually don't teach foreign language in this order in schools.

But don't infants and adults differ in how their brain processes information? Children are on autopilot while adults can actually use the brain and interfere on "hardware level". Or prehaps it's the other way round, by growing up we forget how to do it. In other words you don't have to rely on what hypothalamus decides is important, but you can switch into the override more and tell your brain which information to store in the long term memory immediately after encountering it just once. This way you don't have to repeat each word 20 times until your brain finally realizes it's important. One time is enough.

Again, how do you know that what you suggested is optimum?

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Frank Donovan

9 years ago

Originally Posted by HN

But don't infants and adults differ in how their brain processes information? Children are on autopilot while adults can actually use the brain and interfere on "hardware level". Or prehaps it's the other way round, by growing up we forget how to do it. In other words you don't have to rely on what hypothalamus decides is important, but you can switch into the override more and tell your brain which information to store in the long term memory immediately after encountering it just once. This way you don't have to repeat each word 20 times until your brain finally realizes it's important. One time is enough.

Learning at any stage involves the brain creating new neural connections. Most recent research suggests that neural activity is not unidirectional (e.g. from simple to complex). Complex circuits can be activated at the same time as simple circuits, because the brain is receiving input from multiple external sources - auditory, visual, spatial, motor.

What this means for language learning, according to CARLA (The Center for Advanced Research on Language Acquisition) is (I quote) "...teaching students simple emotional expressions (vocabulary and idioms) can take place in the context of talking about different emotions and what situations elicit different emotions. Students' vocabulary acquisition can be enhanced when it is embedded in real-world complex contexts that are familiar to them. Students need time and experience ("practice") to consolidate new skills and knowledge to become fluent and articulated."

In other words, being immersed in a society's culture can enhance a student's ability to acquire a new language. Indeed, I have found this to be the case, both with my own experience, and that of others I know who have successfully learned foreign languages. There's only so much one can learn from textbooks alone. Knowing the vocabulary is one thing - understanding and using it in context, another.

The Center for Advanced Research on Language Acquisition (CARLA):Articulation of Language Instruction

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seasoned

9 years ago

Originally Posted by HN

But don't infants and adults differ in how their brain processes information? Children are on autopilot while adults can actually use the brain and interfere on "hardware level". Or prehaps it's the other way round, by growing up we forget how to do it. In other words you don't have to rely on what hypothalamus decides is important, but you can switch into the override more and tell your brain which information to store in the long term memory immediately after encountering it just once. This way you don't have to repeat each word 20 times until your brain finally realizes it's important. One time is enough.

Again, how do you know that what you suggested is optimum?

The hypothalamus probably doesn't do too much here, outside of the functions to encourage us to stay alive. Wow, even DOMINIC doesn't suggest a way to do that, at least not last time I checked. He talks about things like pegs, imagery, palaces, etc...

Steve

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sbucciarel

Banned 9 years ago

Off Topic is probably the best suited since it isn't a marketing question at all. It's like how do I teach a dog tricks kind of question. That wouldn't really belong anywhere other than Off Topic either.

But to answer your question ... I don't know.

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seasoned

9 years ago

Originally Posted by HN

I stared a thread about learning foreign vocabulary a few days ago. It was moved to copywriting section and when I pointed out it has nothing to do with copywriting it just vanished. I figured OT was the correct section.

My original question was, what's the best way in your opinion to acquire foreign vocabulary and why.
1. In order the words appear in a textbook or a novel that you might use to learn language.
2. By learning most frequent words first
3. In alphabetic order

So, where the hell would this topic fit if anywhere?

I hate to say it, but it seems most peoples minds work, for the most part, in an odd way. YEAH, mine works this way too, but I HATE it for things like this.

You will HATE my answer as much as I do. The BEST way is to do it in context! Find something you LOVE, written in that language, read it, and define the words as you go.

Otherwise, I would say learn the most frequent words first. Tony buzan(sp?) claimed you only need 100 words(They have to be the RIGHT words like the equivalent of the english a,the,but,or,me, you, him, her, she, he, today, etc....). That IS a good start to start doing what I just suggested, but 2000 is more like it. MOST words likely track back to english in some way, so learning 2000 NEW words should leave you with a larger vocabulary.

Steve

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Rick Rodd

9 years ago

Have a Penpal or frequent tutor-friend on Skype to have conversation with. Not only do you learn foreign language, you gain a friend.

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rickdangelo

9 years ago

When you're trying to learn a foreign language, its always the best to either find a friend who know the language or learn it with someone, that way the retention would be easier because you have someone to use the language with other than the textbook or learning software in front of you. Good luck!

Thanks

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Richard Van

9 years ago

Originally Posted by HN

I stared a thread about learning foreign vocabulary a few days ago. It was moved to copywriting section and when I pointed out it has nothing to do with copywriting it just vanished.

I'd have thought it was here.

I suspect it was moved to the copywriting section by error then when you said it had nothing to do with copywriting they thought you may have been complaining and deleted without realising you were the OP.

Probably just an error.

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Wibble, bark, my old man's a mushroom etc...

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waterotter

9 years ago

I'm confused.

Being fluent in 50? It might be possible, but not in 2 years that I've been working on it. But if you care it's now 55.

If you're fluent in 55 languages, why the need for advice? You should be selling a product instead.

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HN

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by waterotter

I'm confused.
If you're fluent in 55 languages, why the need for advice? You should be selling a product instead.

Product? Why would I waste my time creating a product? This should be taught in primary or even pre-school. That's my goal. Not selling a product to dummies.

Originally Posted by HN

Basic foreign vocabulary and the development of methods for acquaring it fast is my field of study. Being fluent in 50? It might be possible, but not in 2 years that I've been working on it. But if you care it's now 55. You can count in Turkish and Georgian Swadesh and top 1500 frequent word lists. Each took a week.

I know between 200 and 2000 words in 55 different languages. I never said I am fluent in 50 languages.

Originally Posted by HN

I wasn't actually looking for advice, but for opinions. In which order is it best to acquire vocabulary and why?
For example, why not in alphabetical order?

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seasoned

9 years ago

Originally Posted by HN

Product? Why would I waste my time creating a product? This should be taught in primary or even pre-school. That's my goal. Not selling a product to dummies.

If you are talking about the ways the memory works, and being encouraged to use it, I agree, that it should be taught EARLY! HECK, ENCOURAGE people to LEARN and MEMORIZE. Too many, today, are TAUGHT to basically lose what they have.

I know between 200 and 2000 words in 55 different languages.

GEE, I could say that. It is AMAZING how similar some languages are, and the words as well. When I was a kid, I realized I knew a lot about maybe a dozen languages. NOW, I know it was more like 100. I bet I know 200 words in all of them. It is too bad they aren't the most common words, etc...

Peace, hello, goodbye is shalom is Hebrew, and salaam in Arabic, for example.
The sound NO means the same in French, English, Spanish, etc... I wonder why so many such words start out with N to mean NO. NO, NON, NEIN, NYET, NEG, all mean NO.
For ONE, you have un, en, ein, one, etc....
HECK, yiddish is like german. EN BISSEL or EIN BISCHEN!

If you can learn the top 2000 words in them, and basic grammar, it would be astounding.

NOW, if you work with dominics methods, and are looking for help learning words, you CAN try linkword linkwordlanguages.com . This is not an endorsement, they merely came up with a verbal description of an image that tries to tie meaningful words together to try to convey meaning, approximate sound, and language name, together with something odd enough that it tends to stick.

I checked out their claims, and think it approximates the speed of ROTE. The picture idea IS nice, and helps to recover if you forget, but it is roughly equivalent to rote. Of course, most are unlikely to intentionally concentrate on one word for so long(approximately 2 minutes). The picture and idea helps to distract from the time.

Steve

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HN

Banned 9 years ago

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seasoned

9 years ago

Originally Posted by HN

Dammit, it should be 6 to 10 seconds per word. But of course it's only possible to maintain this speed for a very short time. Hence I consider just 100 words per hour with 95% recall rate as a good result.

I checked out the Greek demo (first 5 words), and realized I don't need to learn those words via English language. I can link them to Estonian words.

Check this out
Greek word => Estonian word
χήνα HINA => HANI (Goose)
πάπια PAPIA => PART (Duck)
κακός KAKOS (bad) => KAKA (poo)
μέλι MELI => MESI (honey)

But the original question still stands. What are the pros and cons of learning words in Alphabetic order?

The ONLY benefit I see to learning words in alphabetic order is that, if you forget detail, the placement gives you clues, and helps you find it by spelling. Most people do it ONLY because most dictionaries, and word lists, are in alphabetical order. The cons are that there are NO other clues, it is out of context(unless there are sentences there), and it isn't in order of frequency. SOME like theme directories, but outside of some context, and the ability to quickly find by theme, I don't see a point.

Steve