Who believes in Astrology ? If not why not, if yes why

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Okay so I have had a crazy life journey in the last year and a half and it has taken me to many a weird and wonderful path enough to write a book about.

One of the paths is looking at astrology without the blinders I once had and finding some fascinating things was wondering what some of your thoughts are ...
  • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
    Who believes in Astrology on here? If not why not, if yes why

    Nope. Because I don't do woo-woo.


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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      This will end very very well.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alfred Shelver
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        This will end very very well.
        Yeah I was wondering the same thing but I checked Astrology is not a religion so thought the responses may be fun.
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        • Profile picture of the author ThomM
          I don't believe or not believe, in other words it never interested me at all.
          I can see where there might be some possibility of it being somewhat valid. After all the gravitational pull of the sun and moon effects the oceans giving us tides.
          Even the position of the moon (new, full, etc.) has an effect on some animals 6 Wild Ways the Moon Affects Animals
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          • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
            I believe that some people believe in it. Does that count?


            Terra
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            • Profile picture of the author positivenegative
              It's a load of bull (if you're Taurus that is).
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              • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                Originally Posted by positivenegative View Post

                It's a load of bull (if you're Taurus that is).

                People tell me I am all of the time.

                Ha! A Taurus, that is, not the load of bull part, lol!

                Terra
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              • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
                Originally Posted by positivenegative View Post

                It's a load of bull (if you're Taurus that is).
                For Pisceans, it's all a bit fishy.
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                • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
                  Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

                  For Pisceans, it's all a bit fishy.
                  And Riffle must be Capricorn because he has a goatee.



                  Alfred I'm not really into it but I can understand you reading up on it and learning about it, especially with what you've been through over the last couple of years.

                  And if it helps you, that's all that matters.
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      • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        This will end very very well.
        I can picture the hand wringing going on right now.

        I have a unique perspective on Astrology. Although, technically, scientifically and logically it is complete bunk I used to run an Astrology Computer Program in a little hippy shop I ran back in the eighties on an old 8 bit computer called the Sinclair QL (Quantum Leap, ironic huh). I used a double 3.5 inch floppy drive.

        Before I start on that best explain it a bit more. Astrology is calculating the positions of the planets above or below the horizon at the time, place and date of your birth. The star patterns are just something to associate them with based on their position. so, Mercury moving through the constellation of Scorpio means just that. It is just in that position in the sky based on your time, place and location on the Earths surface at birth and it's viewpoint.

        The suns position in the sky at the time of birth and what star constellation sign it is moving through gives you your natal or birth sign. Using that my sign is Scorpio. In the past, there were only five known planets so as others were discovered they were incorporated, Pluto was recently disregarded as a planet so I do not know if it is still used by astrologers.

        Meanings for these planetary positions that applied to us were worked out over many centuries making observations of our personalities and traits and professions etc. It is not only the individual planet positions but there relationships of position related to others in the sky at the time of birth. So you could have Mercury in the east and mars west, so they could be opposite each other.

        Is there any science behind all this. The Sun affects everything we do, as to it affecting our physical and mental makeup..??? The moon can affect our moods to a very small extent, we are all made of water essentially and the moons gravity pulls these liquids around to a lesser or higher extent. So, perhaps a slight influence there.

        The other planets physical presence and gravitational pull on the Earth is so weak that nothing physical could possibly be present based on that.

        In 1969 in Europe a massive study was done on people using traditional Astrological methods and meanings to find out if it has any credibility as to chosen professions and personalities.

        Only one thing strange came out of that. A massive amount of people who had become pro and semi pro athletes had Saturn rising in a specific location in the sky at the time of birth. Other than that they found nothing.

        So, having said all that, there I was doing Astrological personality printouts back in 1985. The program did 2, a three page abbreviated one or a 7 page detailed one. all based on the planets positions in the sky at the time of birth, so each would say: eg: Mars opposite Saturn: Meaning, Jupiter Trine Neptune: Meaning.

        As the reading printed out, the paragraphs for each planetary position and relation to others scrolled up on the screen. Reading it quickly you would often see a lot of repetition in the paragraphs pertaining to certain things about the person so I got into the habit of summarizing it very quickly.

        I lost count of the number of times I was able to tell the profession of the person who I was doing a reading for (never previously having talked to them much). One I remember very well, a woman was showing so much about the love of books in the print out so I said, excuse me for asking, I said, you either work in a library or run a bookstore. I am the manager of Truro City bookstore she said looking at me wide eyed. Another one was about serious medical problems in the rectal area when in their youth. That was spot on There were many times I blurted out things that were summised from the scrolling text that jumped out at me that was confirmed correct. Zillions of times more than chance would allow for.

        So, although scientifically Astrology is really bunk I was really surprised what turned up when following it. I pay no attention to it now however. I don't seek out readings etc. If there is anything to it then it is all about just potentials in life but you can not let them affect you and make your own way, chances, destiny etc.

        Anyway, just my two pennies worth.
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

          I can picture the hand wringing going on right now.
          Not so much. I'm just surprised that the exact same subject comes up every few months.

          And something I notice. In every woman's magazines, there is a horoscope. More women seem to be interested in this than men. Most astrology books are bought by women. I mean, it's a huge gap. That is a mystery to me. I've given it some thought, and still can't figure out the gender bias.

          The higher the education level, the lower the instance of belief in these things. But no men's magazine has a horoscope, and nearly every woman's magazine does...even the more highbrow magazines. It's just interesting to me.

          In my 5 minute research in this, it's been suggested that women have a more vivid fantasy life....maybe....


          The Feminisation of Astrology According to HuffPo | Nicole A.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alfred Shelver
    Yeah that used to be me a I get it, problem is the damn woo woo is freaking me out with some amazingly accurate information about myself and others.

    Just asking about it has made slightly uncomfortable because was so not me ... but seems I am becoming a woo woo. So Joe what's your star sign ? Lol
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  • Profile picture of the author socialentry
    I believe in Chinese fortune cookies.
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    • Profile picture of the author Joe Stewart
      Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

      I believe in Chinese fortune cookies.
      I believe that if you rely on fortune cookies for guidance you'll be most unfortunate.
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      • Profile picture of the author socialentry
        But why????
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        • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
          Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

          But why????

          ?


          Terra
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          • Profile picture of the author AprilCT
            Astrology is used or blamed when people believe that inanimate rocks have control over their destinies and act accordingly. It is an especially good practice for those who do not believe in free will and making your own decisions. It also works for people too scared or too arrogant to blame themselves for their own mistakes.

            Some day soon, someone will invent a newer practice based on positions of satellites and decaying orbits.

            Shane's beliefs are based on the positions of fluffy bunnies on Mars.

            This topic seems to come up on a fairly regular basis.

            I think I forgot to mention that no, I don't believe in astrology.
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            • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
              Originally Posted by Alfred Shelver View Post

              Yeah that used to be me a I get it, problem is the damn woo woo is freaking me out with some amazingly accurate information about myself and others.

              Just asking about it has made slightly uncomfortable because was so not me ... but seems I am becoming a woo woo. So Joe what's your star sign ? Lol
              Hmmm, we can discuss this to the end of time, and the conversation won't go beyond luck, statistical probability and possibly going through someones rubbish!

              But most of our bodies, are made of water, and the moon creates tides, with it gravity shear, so, can the moon physically affect us, definitely.

              The other planets, possible.

              Can the planets affect our minds, or future events, l don't think that anyone here, can give a yes or no, on that one.

              Do l believe, well, consult your charts, and l think that answer will appear!




              Originally Posted by AprilCT View Post

              Astrology is used or blamed when people believe that inanimate rocks have control over their destinies and act accordingly. It is an especially good practice for those who do not believe in free will and making your own decisions. It also works for people too scared or too arrogant to blame themselves for their own mistakes.

              Some day soon, someone will invent a newer practice based on positions of satellites and decaying orbits.

              Shane's beliefs are based on the positions of fluffy bunnies on Mars.

              This topic seems to come up on a fairly regular basis.

              I think I forgot to mention that no, I don't believe in astrology.
              True, but l do tell them where they should be, so l have a good outcome!

              I think that lately they have done a runner!


              DON'T BELIEVE IN ASTROLOGY!

              That's ok, now where did l put my flame grilled Owl cookbook?




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  • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
    Of course I believe in Astrology since Astrology does, indeed, exist. Whether or not it has value is another question.

    Before passing judgment on Claude Whitacre over his stance on astrology, let it be known that he is a hero. He saved a young man by the name of Arch Bishops from life of of servitude on a hog and orange farm.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alfred Shelver
    My fascination began when looking at astrology holistically and not just on a day to day magazine level. The coincidences for me and my past became too many to just ignore. Thanks Claude now I am worried about my gender bias ... oh well can think of worse things than being highly dominated by my Feminine principle ( Something in fact told to me by my life coach who happens to be a practising astrologer ... lol)

    Thanks all who have given their opinions witty remarks etc. It's a fun read
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  • Profile picture of the author dbostian
    I know what sign I fall under but I don't believe in it. But if it helps those who believe in it sleep better at night, that's cool.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      I don't really believe in astrology but I love it. In fact, I love all the occult sciences. I'm into Tarot Cards, I-Ching, Runes, Numerology, Cartouche as well as Astrology. I own about 7 or 8 Tarot decks, Astrology software, though I don't know what happened to it or where it is right now and have more books on the various subjects than I know what to do with.

      But I don't believe in any of it. I just think it's a lot of fun, like a game.

      I don't know if I'm an oddball or if this is common, but it's how I feel about these things. They're fun, but I don't put any stock in them whatsoever.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        I don't know if I'm an oddball or if this is common, but it's how I feel about these things. They're fun, but I don't put any stock in them whatsoever.
        I think this is quite a widespread attitude.

        I remember reading something (about a year ago, and I can't find it, now) about a survey conducted - I think it was in Australia - where thousands of people who read their newspaper horoscopes at least four or five times a week were asked to grad their "belief in astrology" on a scale from 0 to 4, or something like this (0 representing "absolutely no belief whatsoever"). One of the surprising findings was the large number of people who do read their daily horoscopes but profess absolutely "no belief at all in astrology".

        .
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

          I think this is quite a widespread attitude.

          I remember reading something (about a year ago, and I can't find it, now) about a survey conducted - I think it was in Australia - where thousands of people who read their newspaper horoscopes at least four or five times a week were asked to grad their "belief in astrology" on a scale from 0 to 4, or something like this (0 representing "absolutely no belief whatsoever"). One of the surprising findings was the large number of people who do read their daily horoscopes but profess absolutely "no belief at all in astrology".

          .
          I guess that doesn't surprise me. I'm really into the cool art and stuff. That's what attracted me to Tarot Cards. Some of the artwork is amazing.

          Just a fun diversion from time to time. Just don't have the time that I used to have when I was really into it big time.
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      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        I don't really believe in astrology but I love it. In fact, I love all the occult sciences. I'm into Tarot Cards, I-Ching, Runes, Numerology, Cartouche as well as Astrology. I own about 7 or 8 Tarot decks, Astrology software, though I don't know what happened to it or where it is right now and have more books on the various subjects than I know what to do with.

        But I don't believe in any of it. I just think it's a lot of fun, like a game.

        I don't know if I'm an oddball or if this is common, but it's how I feel about these things. They're fun, but I don't put any stock in them whatsoever.
        My wife and I still read the fortunes in fortune cookies. I've had people, who are really into astrology, tell me about myself. It is fun. And it's fun having someone pay attention to you, and tell you good things about yourself, and your future.

        When I was about 18, I went through a "The occult is fascinating" phase. And then my "Philosophy is fascinating" phase.

        The only reason I stopped, was that I would keep seeing flaws in logic....reversals of cause and effect. And the language was so muddy...made esoteric, for the sake of being esoteric. Eventually I lost interest.

        I have to assume that when Astrology and Astronomy were part of the same study, the same thing happened. Some were attracted to the science, and some were attracted to the ritual....and they split.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Maschke
    It's always fun to hear something good is going to happen, just like it's fun to hear one is good looking or intelligent. Even if isn't true.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Let's see! MANY people were born when I was. Some of those may have been born in the same MINUTE! Even given that, the stars were in a different alignment for them, because they were born in a different spot. HECK, I don't even know what my REAL birthdate would be, because my birth was INDUCED! Apparently that is not that unusual. SO, how does THAT fit into the scheme of things? And NO Ephemeral Map goes into such detail. AGAIN, I don't know the precise coordinates of where I was born. WHO DOES? I COULD find out the room, discuss details with the hospital, and perhaps find them, but most couldn't even DREAM of doing even THAT.

    OK, I just obliterated THE KEY part of astrology! Any "reputable" astrologist will have ephemeral maps, and tie them to your birthdate. That literally IS the key to it all. Some have programs that SHOULD do the same thing. Should I have to continue that they never got it right for me, were always vague or subjective, etc?

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author onlinebuzz77
    Everything that is happening in life is due to the past life karma and the astrological planetary combinations of an individual. In India theres a type of astrology called " nadi astrology" . In this the astrologer takes he thumbs print and from that he predicts the exact future of a person. According to nadi astrology thousands of years back hindu saints had the power to predict the future of each and every individual on this planet. Based on the thumb prints and certain questions asked to an individual, the astrologer matches a series of very old leaves on which the future is written. Its simply amazing !!
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by onlinebuzz77 View Post

      Everything that is happening in life is due to the past life karma and the astrological planetary combinations of an individual.
      Please excuse the observation that (for readily understandable reasons) many people, these days, find the attribution of things like disability, congenital illnesses and handicaps to "past life karma" to be particularly offensive.

      .
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by onlinebuzz77 View Post

      Everything that is happening in life is due to the past life karma and the astrological planetary combinations of an individual. In India theres a type of astrology called " nadi astrology" . In this the astrologer takes he thumbs print and from that he predicts the exact future of a person. According to nadi astrology thousands of years back hindu saints had the power to predict the future of each and every individual on this planet. Based on the thumb prints and certain questions asked to an individual, the astrologer matches a series of very old leaves on which the future is written. Its simply amazing !!
      This is the biggest load of horse manure I've ever heard in my life.

      And I've heard some whoppers in my day.

      You have offended a very good friend of mine and a dear sweet girl and I think you owe her a big apology.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by onlinebuzz77 View Post

      Everything that is happening in life is due to the past life karma and the astrological planetary combinations of an individual.
      You have offended a few people. But you know what? You said what you believe. It isn't any more ludicrous than most things I hear on related subjects.

      Guys; Have you ever heard "Everything happens for a reason"? I hear it often. And to me, it's nonsense. (added after Terra attacked me relentlessly. I supposed that happened for a reason too. )

      It isn't any more bizarre than what onlinebuzzguy just said. I hear the religious equivalent of what he said, from well meaning people, on a regular basis.

      And think about what he said. And consider...;
      If you believe in reincarnation...that's the deal.
      If you believe in Karma...that's the deal.
      If you believe in past lives...that's the deal.
      If you believe in Karma, Astrology, and Reincarnation together, that's exactly what you believe. And he thought he was giving us "the real deal".

      Maybe the difference is...to me, it's all equally insane. So one claim isn't any more ridiculous than the next. It isn't more offensive. At least to me.

      onlinebuzzguy didn't mean to be offensive...and when a loved one dies, and someone says "It's for the best", they aren't trying to be offensive either. What they say isn't very bright, but it's harmless.

      My wife has taught me to smile, say "Thank you" and walk on. Very bright woman, that wife of mine.
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      • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post


        Guys; Have you ever heard "Everything happens for a reason"?
        Wow Claude, you never told us that you were a mystic. What you said right there was mysticism at it's finest!


        Terra
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

          Wow Claude, you never told us that you were a mystic. What you said right there was mysticism at it's finest!


          Terra
          Terra...my love....

          Please read it again, I was quoting something I hear (not say) that I think is ridiculous. But I hear it from well meaning people. I went back and fixed the post to make it clearer (and to pick on you)

          It isn't something you would ever hear me say.

          I find your relentless attack on my feelings...reprehensible.....Cute, endearing..yes..but reprehensible.

          Yours truly,
          Claude "The Man With No Name" Whitacre


          Originally Posted by Alfred Shelver View Post

          I am guessing the rules about religion and politics were put in for a reason and that at some point they were topics that were allowed to be discussed. Anyone here a member back then? How bad was it ? Can only imagine but could never have been boring ...LOL
          Alfred; Have you ever read a Youtube comment section? I mean, after almost any video?

          Probably like that. The rules here keep the banter civil, for the most part. As long as you aren't overtly religious (quoting Bible verses is a No No), and you aren't rude to others, you're pretty safe.

          You seem like you'll get along fine.
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          • Profile picture of the author Alfred Shelver
            Thank you Claude, I believe there was a reason you said that


            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            Terra...my love....

            Please read it again, I was quoting something I hear (not say) that I think is ridiculous. But I hear it from well meaning people.

            It isn't something you would ever hear me say.

            Yours truly,
            Claude
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          • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            Terra...my love....

            Please read it again, I was quoting something I hear (not say) that I think is ridiculous. But I hear it from well meaning people. I went back and fixed the post to make it clearer (and to pick on you)

            It isn't something you would ever hear me say.

            I find your relentless attack on my feelings...reprehensible.....Cute, endearing..yes..but reprehensible.

            Yours truly,
            Claude "The Man With No Name" Whitacre




            Alfred; Have you ever read a Youtube comment section? I mean, after almost any video?

            Probably like that. The rules here keep the banter civil, for the most part. As long as you aren't overtly religious (quoting Bible verses is a No No), and you aren't rude to others, you're pretty safe.

            You seem like you'll get along fine.
            Did you see my wink? I know all of those things, Sweetie.

            Oh, and I can't think of anyone else that I would rather be picked on by. = )


            P.S. Your edit cracked me up! LOL!


            Terra
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  • Profile picture of the author HN
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    Joan Quigley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Joan Quigley discussed her relationship with Nancy Reagan in a book, titled What Does Joan Say?. Quigley wrote, "Not since the days of the Roman emperors—and never in the history of the United States Presidency—has an astrologer played such a significant role in the nation's affairs of State."

    In 1988, Regan published his memoir For the Record: From Wall Street to Washington, revealing that Nancy Reagan had consulted with Quigley, and previously with astrologer Jeane Dixon.

    Regan wrote:
    Virtually every major move and decision the Reagans made during my time as White House Chief of Staff was cleared in advance with a woman in San Francisco [Quiqley] who drew up horoscopes to make certain that the planets were in a favorable alignment for the enterprise.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sarevok
    As a Libra (peaceful, diplomatic + graceful) I suspect that astrology holds true.

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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    I believe in cause and effect. I don't see how astrology fits in very well with that.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jarrod
    Unlike Joe Mobley and others, I do woo-woo.

    Yet, though I do woo-woo, not all woo-woo is true, and the woo-woo true for me may not be the woo-woo true for you.

    Is astrology the woo-woo that is true?

    Not to sure. Let me think it through.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jarrod
    I'm fascinated with psychological types, and certain MBTI types are more prone to this stuff than others. My type is INFJ (as was Carl Jung, whose teachings MBTI was based on), which is sometimes called "the mystic".

    I was very happy when I found that out. Helped explain A LOT!
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  • Profile picture of the author Alfred Shelver
    I am guessing the rules about religion and politics were put in for a reason and that at some point they were topics that were allowed to be discussed. Anyone here a member back then? How bad was it ? Can only imagine but could never have been boring ...LOL
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    • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
      Sorry Alfred, that was way before my time here. But like you, I can only imagine, LOL!


      Terra
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  • Profile picture of the author Alfred Shelver
    Just a side note so many can understand my almost child like fascination with certain things I was 5th generation Mormon, Both my wife and I left 11 months before she passed. Anyone who knows how all encompassing that religion is can understand how massive a change that was and then dealing with the loss of your soul mate ... yeah lets just say fun times ...Not! But hey I am still standing.

    Under such dogmatic conditions I never explored too many other ways of thinking at all it was very difficult to. So with posts like Stevens and Claude's about how they had fascination in it I am almost envious as I now get to test discover and enjoy open mindedness and I am like a kid in a candy shop at a relatively late age.
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  • Lemme see.

    Fiery? Check.
    Phillersofikal? Check.
    Outspoken? Check.
    Optimistic? Check.
    Packin' missiles? Check.
    Honest? Check.
    Horse's ass? Hey, FFS, I'm outta here...
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    Lightin' fuses is for blowin' stuff togethah.

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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Lemme see.

      bumps old threads....check
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  • Ha!

    This was bumped earlier but the moderators musta bumped someone off.

    Anyways, it's in the nature of astrology to be cyclic.

    Now we're stuck with it.
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    • Profile picture of the author nickto21
      No,I do not believe in astrology. Why? Because the part of my brain that decides fact from fiction is working correctly.
      Astrology,seriously? Next you'll be asking about invisible beings that run the universe.😕
      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Do you have ANY idea how complicated astrology is? So HOW can they prove by example that it works or doesn't? STILL, how does one come up with all this? But YEAH, I can see turns I could have changed EVER so slightly, etc... So it is clear I can't blame the stars. Astrologists tend to be too general and vague, and often miss the mark, so I vote that it is BUNK! Of course, if were LEGIT, it would STILL be bunk since it requires information that they STILL don't have.

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author Jeffery
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      Do you have ANY idea how complicated astrology is? So HOW can they prove by example that it works or doesn't? STILL, how does one come up with all this? But YEAH, I can see turns I could have changed EVER so slightly, etc... So it is clear I can't blame the stars. Astrologists tend to be too general and vague, and often miss the mark, so I vote that it is BUNK! Of course, if were LEGIT, it would STILL be bunk since it requires information that they STILL don't have.

      Steve
      ^ This ^
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      In the minute it took me to write this post.. someone died of Covid 19. RIP.
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      • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
        LOL, yes astrology is crap!

        Apparently when all electrical products start to stuff up all at once, when they are supposed to that is luck or a fluke or something else!

        This is what has happened over the last month, at least to me and very likely others.

        And l tried to get some electronic circuits for a project, but no matter how hard l tried l couldn't find an electrical store that was open.

        Then this month when the pesky planet did a runner, l tried again, and at least this time l found a company that did do industrial components, and they pointed me in the direction of a cheap electrical store, finally!

        Now, l agree that l kept away from warehouse type suppliers because l learned that they all seem to be closed, then doing a Google street search.

        But the rest can be attributed to luck. Or it can be attributed to the particular planet doing a runner?

        The planets can and do affect our minds!

        After studying astronomy for a while it becomes obvious that there is more to it than dumb luck, or wanting it to work!


        Try to do something when it is predicted to be a bad time, and it will be a painful uphill battle to achieve; but do it when it is a favorable time, and it will be quick and easy!

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  • Profile picture of the author goneill
    Most of the comments have been based on the western view / practice of astrology.

    If you cross relate to the Chinese view of astrology, that is connect the Chinese animal sign to the western astrological sign e.g

    Pig = Airies, you will find many interesting correlations in pesonality types. The Chinese use astrology
    far more than western societies in their daily lives.

    I personally do not believe in it but at the same time I have been amazed at the stories and predictions I
    have heard from other people.
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    George ONeill

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  • Profile picture of the author bestastrologerindelhi
    Banned
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