From Tim Ferriss of 4-Hour Workweek fame: The Truth About "Homeopathic" Medicine

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Most homeopathic remedies in liquid are indistinguishable from water and don't contain a single molecule of active medicine. In systematic review after systematic review, these dilutive homeopathic remedies display no ability to heal beyond placebo.
I found this particularly bothersome.

Bothersome because I appeared to heal faster using oral 30C arnica.
There are a few potential explanations...
OPTION #1 -- HOMEOPATHIC REMEDIES WORK AS ADVERTISED
...
OPTION #2 -- THE PLACEBO EFFECT
...
OPTION #3 -- REGRESSION TOWARD THE MEAN
...
OPTION #4 -- SOME UNEXPLAINED MECHANISM
...

Short podcast (9'ish minutes) and text are here,

The Truth About "Homeopathic" Medicine | The Blog of Author Tim Ferriss

Joe Mobley
  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    Interesting as I've seen him represented as promoting several such remedies.

    EDIT: I think they were energy supplements, etc - his name and recommendation were featured.
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    • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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      I believe there are two distinct schools of thought, regarding this.

      1. Placebo effect.

      2. Marketing bull.

      Cheers. - Frank
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      • Profile picture of the author Christian B
        Hello,

        homeopathic medicine works.

        Placebo can't explain everything because you can cure babies, animals and plants with homeopathy. And I don't think that placebo works on babies, animals and plants.


        The problem in fact is that there are very few good homeopathic doctors. A trick to recognize them: a true homeopathic doctor will give only ONE cure, he is a "unicist". A bad homeopathic doctor gives several cures: he is a "pluricist". And I don't talk about charlatan which mix homeopathy and allopathy.
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        • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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          Originally Posted by Christian B View Post

          Hello,

          homeopathic medicine works.
          Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you probably meant to say that it is your personal belief, that 'homeopathic medicine works.'

          There is not a single, scientific study by any reputable medical facility to support that claim. Sorry, believing something does not make it so. If it works for you, that's wonderful, but if I get any serious illness I ain't going with homeopathic or naturopathic cures.

          Ask Steve Jobs how that worked out for him. Oh, that's right - you can't. He's pushing up daisies.

          Cheers. - Frank
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            So true - and in one of his last interviews he talked of how sorry he was that he tried the homeopathic methods rather than following his doctor's recommendation.
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            • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
              As Tim mentioned in the podcast, the term Homeopathic is used interchangeably with other forms of alternative medicine.

              I doubt that a typical doctor would recommend 5-HTP, but it's not really a Homeopathic treatment.

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              • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                Ask Steve Jobs how that worked out for him. Oh, that's right - you can't. He's pushing up daisies.
                To be fair Frank, I know plenty of people who tried the conventional or excepted treatments for cancer who are also pushing up daisies. I also know people who have been cured of cancer using both methods. The key to being cured lays more in early detection.

                I always go for natural or homeopathic treatments and they have worked well for me so far.
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                • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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                  Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                  To be fair Frank, I know plenty of people who tried the conventional or excepted treatments for cancer who are also pushing up daisies. I also know people who have been cured of cancer using both methods. The key to being cured lays more in early detection.

                  I always go for natural or homeopathic treatments and they have worked well for me so far.
                  If you believe that, who can argue with you? What can they effectively treat? Indigestion? Stuffy nose? Headache? Warts? Halitosis?

                  You simply cannot say that you know of people that have been 'cured' of major illnesses using homeopathic remedies as there is simply no way to validate such a claim. For all we know they could have been cured via the body's own what oftentimes seems like miraculous healing powers. I'll accept that premise long before I would ever believe any claim of anyone being cured by natural remedies. I'm an extremely skeptical person, but not as closed minded as you might think.

                  Next, because some kid had a near death experience and believes that he went to heaven before being revived that I should believe in heaven. It's the same principle. It's OK to believe whatever you need to get through life. I certainly don't deny anyone that right. You just can't expect me to believe what you believe, even if you are convinced that you are totally correct.

                  As hard as it is to believe, I am not being argumentative just to be that way. I'm a firm believer in science and I rely on the scientific method to quantify any hypothesis that I am going to bet my life on.

                  As far as marijuana goes (different post) I don't believe that it can cure anything, either, but only reduce the symptoms and side-effects of certain maladies. If marijuana had curative powers I would not suffer from a single ailment as I have smoked more pot in the past 50 years than probably any person you have ever known, know presently or will ever know. I am now 10.5 months 'pot-free' and can't say it has made that much of a difference in my life other than being less stupid and more productive. lol

                  Cheers. - Frank
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                  • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                    Blood letting cured people too. Eventually, some of the um...patients got better, so it worked.

                    The problem with not testing these "cures" is that all of them have cured major diseases. .
                    Nearly every MLM product you can drink or eat...has serious claims that it cured cancer....Why? Because some people eventually get better.

                    And then there is always the possibility that the person making the claim is wrong.

                    And these claims are never made by Doctors...you know, the guys that go to real colleges, dissect real people, study every day for over a decade...and have real exams...before they can practice on us.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Patrician
                      Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post


                      And these claims are never made by Doctors...you know, the guys that go to real colleges, dissect real people, study every day for over a decade...and have real exams...before they can practice on us.
                      For your information Doctors take NO NUTRITION in college.

                      JACK. That is why they don't know more about vitamins and the natural things people have done for hundreds of years.

                      They are not interested in preventing anything. They just know how (in some cases to TREAT a condition).
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                      • Profile picture of the author M3C
                        Originally Posted by Patrician View Post

                        For your information Doctors take NO NUTRITION in college.
                        Indeed, medical doctors, general understanding of nutrition via their training is still often 2 decades behind current knowledge.

                        They are still using the BMI as a measurement of obesity FFS.
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                    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                      Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                      Blood letting cured people too. Eventually, some of the um...patients got better, so it worked.

                      The problem with not testing these "cures" is that all of them have cured major diseases. .
                      Nearly every MLM product you can drink or eat...has serious claims that it cured cancer....Why? Because some people eventually get better.

                      And then there is always the possibility that the person making the claim is wrong.

                      And these claims are never made by Doctors...you know, the guys that go to real colleges, dissect real people, study every day for over a decade...and have real exams...before they can practice on us.
                      If they're that knowledgeable why do they have to practice on us?
                      By the way this is one of the best explanations of science I've heard.
                      Science refers to a system of acquiring knowledge. This system uses observation and experimentation to describe and explain natural phenomena.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
                      Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                      Blood letting cured people too. Eventually, some of the um...patients got better, so it worked.

                      The problem with not testing these "cures" is that all of them have cured major diseases. .
                      Nearly every MLM product you can drink or eat...has serious claims that it cured cancer....Why? Because some people eventually get better.
                      OPTION #3 -- REGRESSION TOWARD THE MEAN

                      I had never thought of this in exactly this way. This could also apply to people who were cured by woo-woo.

                      "In the name of Cheese and Crackers I command that you be healed!" As other people would see how they "were healed", everyone would go out and buy more Cheese and Crackers.

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                      • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                        lets be clear, and that's what Homeopathic remedy's are, clear of anything. How water can take on the essense of an ingredient when diluted to the Nth degree is just Hokum.

                        The only thing worth talking about is supplements and herbal remedies. tablets and liquids that actually have something in them, that have an effect.

                        The principal ingredient of asprin comes from a plant for example, it was discovered by chewing the plant it relieved headaches. Now it is delivered in tablets. It may have been synthesized in a lab having had it's principal make up broken down but is essentially the same thing. There are other things that are taken or were originally taken from plants that are still used today.

                        The use of plants and natural substances on their own or in combination has been swept under the carpet by the quick fix drugs of the modern age. Most will either block pain inhibit the continuation of an infection or virus or condition allowing a tolerable semblance of life for the patient.. A few do actually cure like antibiotics or penicillin. A lot have side effects and can kill or inflame other conditions. Synthetically made up drugs which a lot of these things are, are a blind alley of medical science. They ultimately cause more trouble than they are worth. Unfortunately they make the companies that manufacture them a lot of money.

                        Invasive surgery is the only thing that has come a long way and produces real results when something needs to be corrected or fixed inside a body.

                        We now find that eating synthetic and processed foods make us ill or unhealthy as opposed to organic stuff, both animal and plant. Should we not be taking that as a lesson?
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                  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
                    Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

                    If you believe that, who can argue with you? What can they effectively treat? Indigestion? Stuffy nose? Headache? Warts? Halitosis?

                    Cheers. - Frank
                    Pubmed. Real research that doesn't have the correct funding to get into the Journal of Medicine.

                    I don't know anything about Homeopathy. I know a lot about natural/alternative. I learned natural from an average MD in Germany and continued learning over here. He told me things that he'd not have been allowed to tell me over here. It's saved my life. Could conventional have done the same? It wasn't doing it for me, it was making me sicker and a real doctor in Germany that read my history to treat me was the one who told me.

                    I learned the rest mostly from actual medical research papers. Research done by actual medical researchers from actual universities. Research that you won't find in use in the US because our system doesn't allow it. Natural isn't patentable remember.

                    Did it save my dog? Well, the vets said "nothing we can do but put him down" and he not only got rid of his cancer, he thrived for another 1/3 lifespan for him. My sister? Don't know. She had the lump removed surgically then used natural instead of chemo. Her doctors are impressed by her health. Those are the examples that I know well enough to make first hand statements about. The rest are hearsay - but I've heard the hearsay from a growing number of people.

                    So you tell me -- does it work?

                    High doses of infused vitamin C (ascorbic acid variety) are scientifically known to kill flu. Yet if you go to a hospital with a lethal case of flu - do you see them giving that to you? No. You have to actually ask for it and you have to know the dose you want. It isn't just offered to you. Even then, you have to have a doctor that you know will give it to you when/if you ask.

                    Why do many die using natural? Because they don't understand how to use it. Take lycopane for an example. A lot of people pick up lycopane supplements and think they are protecting themselves. They are not. Lycopane only works synergistically. If you take it out of the natural source, you take the effectiveness. Your body will only absorb 10 mg a day. 50 mg of alienated lycopane is expensive trash. Eat a nice organic tomato if you are looking for benefits from lycopane. Go to an alternative "doctor" and you know what you get? Lycopane supplements.

                    Follow the money.
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                    • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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                      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

                      So you tell me -- does it work?
                      Natural treatments are valid to a point. Vitamins, minerals, herbs, etc. - many are viable in certain instances.

                      Homeopathy is pure hokum and I find it extremely depressing when I hear people that I admire and respect state that they categorically believe in it. What can you do? I know people that buy gold, also.

                      Cheers. - Frank
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                      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                        Here's one reason why I chuckle when someone says natural remedies don't work, but pharmaceutical ones do.
                        Plant-Based Drugs and Medicines by Leslie Taylor
                        That's not even a complete list.
                        To this day researchers are finding natural remedies and learning how to synthesis them in a lab so they can extract the profit from them.
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                        • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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                          Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                          Here's one reason why I chuckle when someone says natural remedies don't work, but pharmaceutical ones do.
                          Of course natural remedies have some value. That's hardly debatable. There is nothing natural about homeopathy. As a matter of fact, the concept is about as unnatural and unbelievable as anything I have ever heard in my entire life.

                          Cheers. - Frank
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                      • Profile picture of the author HeySal
                        Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

                        Natural treatments are valid to a point. Vitamins, minerals, herbs, etc. - many are viable in certain instances.

                        Homeopathy is pure hokum and I find it extremely depressing when I hear people that I admire and respect state that they categorically believe in it. What can you do? I know people that buy gold, also.

                        Cheers. - Frank
                        Well I know what works........so I'm unlikely to change that, but now I feel I have to look up homeopathy and really get a good grip on what it is exactly. I never paid attention. Always thought it was just another term for "natural". Apparently, from what I'm reading here, there is more to it than that.
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                        • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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                          Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

                          Well I know what works........so I'm unlikely to change that, but now I feel I have to look up homeopathy and really get a good grip on what it is exactly. I never paid attention. Always thought it was just another term for "natural". Apparently, from what I'm reading here, there is more to it than that.
                          Watch the video referenced above. All you need to know. Cheers. - Frank
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                  • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                    Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

                    If you believe that, who can argue with you? What can they effectively treat? Indigestion? Stuffy nose? Headache? Warts? Halitosis?

                    You simply cannot say that you know of people that have been 'cured' of major illnesses using homeopathic remedies as there is simply no way to validate such a claim. For all we know they could have been cured via the body's own what oftentimes seems like miraculous healing powers. I'll accept that premise long before I would ever believe any claim of anyone being cured by natural remedies. I'm an extremely skeptical person, but not as closed minded as you might think.

                    Next, because some kid had a near death experience and believes that he went to heaven before being revived that I should believe in heaven. It's the same principle. It's OK to believe whatever you need to get through life. I certainly don't deny anyone that right. You just can't expect me to believe what you believe, even if you are convinced that you are totally correct.

                    As hard as it is to believe, I am not being argumentative just to be that way. I'm a firm believer in science and I rely on the scientific method to quantify any hypothesis that I am going to bet my life on.

                    As far as marijuana goes (different post) I don't believe that it can cure anything, either, but only reduce the symptoms and side-effects of certain maladies. If marijuana had curative powers I would not suffer from a single ailment as I have smoked more pot in the past 50 years than probably any person you have ever known, know presently or will ever know. I am now 10.5 months 'pot-free' and can't say it has made that much of a difference in my life other than being less stupid and more productive. lol

                    Cheers. - Frank
                    The truth is it doesn't matter what you or I believe, but what the person using any treatment believes. It's real simple, if you don't believe holistic or natural remedies work then don't use them.
                    I don't want to get into a pissin match over who has smoked more cannabis, but that did make me chuckle
                    Also it's the concentration of the cannabiniods (sp) that has been proven effective in treating a number of ailments more so then just smoking it.
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                    • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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                      Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                      The truth is it doesn't matter what you or I believe, but what the person using any treatment believes.
                      Correct. I'm just saying that because someone believes in something, it's not necessarily fact.
                      It's real simple, if you don't believe holistic or natural remedies work then don't use them.
                      I don't and I don't and I have no personal opinion on whether or not anyone else uses them - unless they are my relatives or close friends. I'd have to show up at their funerals, which I loathe doing.
                      I don't want to get into a pissin match over who has smoked more cannabis, but that did make me chuckle
                      That's because your waders don't extend up to your eyebrows, which would be a mandatory requirement should you choose to engage me in any such contest. I'm a freakin' gold medalist. :-)
                      Also it's the concentration of the cannabiniods (sp) that has been proven effective in treating a number of ailments more so then just smoking it.
                      Yes - I know. I was being fuhsee - faceet - fosie - I was just fooling around.

                      Cheers. - Frank
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                • Profile picture of the author msdobe
                  Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                  To be fair Frank, I know plenty of people who tried the conventional or excepted treatments for cancer who are also pushing up daisies. I also know people who have been cured of cancer using both methods. The key to being cured lays more in early detection.

                  I always go for natural or homeopathic treatments and they have worked well for me so far.
                  I absolutely agree! I have cured a number of things naturally. Nothing serious really... the worst being carpal tunnel. But considering the doctor told me I needed surgery, well, I'm pleased.

                  And if I ever got cancer or any other serious medical condition, I would never treat it with drugs or even consider having chemo.

                  Just my opinion.

                  Everyone has different opinions... that's what 'makes the world go round'.
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          • Profile picture of the author Christian B
            Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

            Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you probably meant to say that it is your personal belief, that 'homeopathic medicine works.'

            There is not a single, scientific study by any reputable medical facility to support that claim. Sorry, believing something does not make it so. If it works for you, that's wonderful, but if I get any serious illness I ain't going with homeopathic or naturopathic cures.

            Ask Steve Jobs how that worked out for him. Oh, that's right - you can't. He's pushing up daisies.

            Cheers. - Frank
            Steve Jobs was stupid, and his doctor is a criminal: homeopathy CAN'T cure cancer. A true homeopathic doctor knows the limits of homeopathy.

            And for the studies... well, who makes them ? Reputable medical facilties, as you say. And these facilities don't like homeopathy for a lot of reasons:
            1) homeopathy costs nothing compared to a drug
            2) we don't know why homeopathy works, and scientifics hate that.

            And it's true that a scientific drug didn't ever kill someone (mediator, thalidomide, distilbene, isomeride, ...)
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            • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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              Originally Posted by Christian B View Post

              Steve Jobs was stupid, and his doctor is a criminal: homeopathy CAN'T cure cancer. A true homeopathic doctor knows the limits of homeopathy.
              But a quack will try to convince you it can do wonders, depending on the thickness of your wallet. Kinda like a palm reader.
              And for the studies... well, who makes them ? Reputable medical facilties, as you say. And these facilities don't like homeopathy for a lot of reasons:
              1) homeopathy costs nothing compared to a drug
              2) we don't know why homeopathy works, and scientifics hate that.
              I don't think that science 'hates' anything - except posibly, conjecture. :-) It prefers observable, repeatable outcomes to bolster any claim. That's not really asking for too much.
              And it's true that a scientific drug didn't ever kill someone (mediator, thalidomide, distilbene, isomeride, ...)
              This is the type of commonplace rejoinder utilized when an argument is rapidly running out of steam. lol

              Cheers. - Frank
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            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
              Originally Posted by Christian B View Post

              Steve Jobs was stupid
              we don't know why homeopathy works, and scientifics hate that.
              First; Steve Jobs was stupid? Really?


              Scientists love it when they don't know how something works. Figuring things out..is what science is.

              Scientists don't like unsubstantiated claims. They like evidence, test results ...you know..real proof.
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              • Profile picture of the author peterj
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                First; Steve Jobs was stupid? Really?


                Scientists love it when they don't know how something works. Figuring things out..is what science is.

                ...

                But when it turns out that they may not (presently) have the tools to do so (figure it out), they call it a load of crap and hokum.
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                • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
                  Banned
                  Personally, when I have lower back pain I employ the services of a Thai massage therapist (although local law-enforcement refers to them by another name).

                  Just as effective as anything else that you can point to. No statistics, required.

                  Cheers. - Frank
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            • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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              Originally Posted by Christian B View Post

              Steve Jobs was stupid
              I'd prefer to think of him in this situation as misguided, desperate, thinking outside the box ('different '- if you will) and showing the vestiges of the hippiedom of his youth.

              Cheers. - Frank
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          • Profile picture of the author marketingva
            Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

            Ask Steve Jobs how that worked out for him. Oh, that's right - you can't. He's pushing up daisies.

            Cheers. - Frank
            My friend Laurie only used conventional western medical treatments and surgery for her cancer and guess what - I can't ask her if she wishes she used homeopathic remedies because she's pushing up daisies. Just because those remedies didn't cure Steve doesn't mean that they didn't help him in other ways.... like managing the horrific side effects of conventional western medicine.

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        • Profile picture of the author M3C
          Originally Posted by Christian B View Post

          Hello,

          homeopathic medicine works.

          Placebo can't explain everything because you can cure babies, animals and plants with homeopathy. And I don't think that placebo works on babies, animals and plants.

          .
          Please show a single study showing homoeopathy cured a child of any real medical condition, that can not resolve itself in time.

          It's very important to understand the difference between causation and correlation.

          Just because you took a homeopathic concoction and a change occurred in your mental or physical condition, does not mean the homoeopathic remedy directly altered that condition.

          I'm reminded of these folks that reduce their caloric intake to 1000 calories a day, cut out all the crap from their diet, start exercising, and yet think it's the aloe vera they are drinking that has caused the weight loss.

          Homoeopathy survives by leaning on correlation and chinese whisper anecdotal data.

          As for plants, well yeah, if you poor water on plants, that does tend to "cure" them.

          The placebo effect is incredibly powerful, various studies show phenomenal results from placebo's , whether that be sugar pills masquerading as pain killers or coloured water playing the part of skin treatment.

          Heal thyself , has merit , many issues can be resolved around reducing stress , if people think something is working - it will reduce stress and have an impact on health.

          That doesn't mean dropping a dandelion leaf into 2 tons of water then dispensing it to sick people has any ability to cure conditions that need real medicine.

          Come on guys, it's 2014!
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        • Profile picture of the author mojojuju
          Originally Posted by Christian B View Post

          Placebo can't explain everything because you can cure babies, animals and plants with homeopathy. And I don't think that placebo works on babies, animals and plants.
          Why don't you go right ahead and link to a few of the many studies that demonstrate this?
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  • Profile picture of the author Patrician
    Every day you read where 'big pharma' and their mafia (lobbyists) are always saying ANY alternatives don't work - vitamins never work - homeopathy, naturopathy, never work, marijuana is bad; anything where they don't make money -

    ... and they did it to chiropractic until they were forced to publish the 'white papers' to retract all their slander and libel with regard to that. Now chiropractic is recognized and doing so much good (they do not use drugs or surgery) -

    So I don't believe a damn word they say. I don't know about homeopathy as I have never used it. I believe that for 'sub-clinical' symptoms natural remedies can work and in fact can prevent in some cases.

    ... but at the same time I believe things can go too far for natural things to work and I would always advise someone to see what the medical profession has to say before they rely on 'alternatives'. If you don't like what they say, if what they say to do doesn't work, then by all means you should try the alternatives.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      I think there are natural treatments that work pretty well - 5-http is one of those in my book.

      But - if I have a life threatening illness I'm not going to choose a treatment based on "faith and belief" - I'm going to look for statistics and proven results.
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    • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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      Originally Posted by Patrician View Post

      ... and they did it to chiropractic until they were forced to publish the 'white papers' to retract all their slander and libel with regard to that. Now chiropractic is recognized and doing so much good (they do not use drugs or surgery).
      I'd sooner employ the services of an Amazonian shaman than let some sadist with less hours in training than a professional baker crack my neck. lol

      But, hey - that's just me.

      Cheers. - Frank
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      • Profile picture of the author Patrician
        Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

        I'd sooner employ the services of an Amazonian shaman than let some sadist with less hours in training than a professional baker crack my neck. lol

        But, hey - that's just me.

        Cheers. - Frank
        Again, man, with all due respect - you believe 'old wives' tales which are lies.

        For your information doctors of chiropractic go all the way through medical school -

        the only thing different is chriropractic college excludes pharmaceutical and surgery which they do not do - they are every bit of a doctor other than the things they don't believe in.

        you are sadly mistaken.
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        • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Patrician View Post

          Again, man, with all due respect - you believe 'old wives' tales which are lies.
          I'm just telling you what one of my old wives told me.
          For your information doctors of chiropractic go all the way through medical school -
          That may be true, but they get to pay their tuition with S&H Green Stamps!
          the only thing different is chriropractic college excludes pharmaceutical and surgery which they do not do - they are every bit of a doctor other than the things they don't believe in.
          It also excludes book learnin', an IQ over room temperature, a pulse, a permanent address and a green card.
          you are sadly mistaken.
          About many things - but this ain't one of them.

          Dudette! Chill. You'll throw your back out and you realize what you'd then have to resort to.

          Cheers. - Frank
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  • Profile picture of the author vikash_kumar
    I have my family members treated well with Homeopathic medicines....But I would certainly not advice anyone who want to try any form of natural treatment techniques or systems for major illness...
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  • Profile picture of the author UnkwnUsr
    Treating symptoms is one thing curing a disease is something entirely different. Some supplements that are considered natural are actually quite powerful and should be used with caution.
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    • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Chris Worner View Post

      Video - Chris
      Oh, my. That's was not only informative, but very, very funny.

      Thanks for sharing.

      Cheers. - Frank
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  • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
    Banned
    According to the ACA...

    Educational requirements for doctors of chiropractic are among the most stringent of any of the health care professions.

    The typical applicant at a chiropractic college has already acquired nearly four years of pre-medical undergraduate college education, including courses in biology, inorganic and organic chemistry, physics, psychology and related lab work. Once accepted into an accredited chiropractic college, the requirements become even more demanding -- four to five academic years of professional study are the standard. Because of the hands-on nature of chiropractic, and the intricate adjusting techniques, a significant portion of time is spent in clinical training.

    Doctors of chiropractic -- who are licensed to practice in all 50 states, the District of Columbia, and in many nations around the world -- undergo a rigorous education in the healing sciences, similar to that of medical doctors. In some areas, such as anatomy, physiology, rehabilitation, nutrition and public health, they receive more intensive education than their MD counterparts.

    Like other primary health care doctors, chiropractic students spend a significant portion of their curriculum studying clinical subjects related to evaluating and caring for patients. Typically, as part of their professional training, they must complete a minimum of a one-year clinical-based program dealing with actual patient care. In total, the curriculum includes a minimum of 4,200 hours of classroom, laboratory and clinical experience. The course of study is approved by an accrediting agency which is fully recognized by the U.S. Department of Education. This has been the case for more than 25 years.

    http://www.acatoday.org/content_css.cfm?CID=746
    .

    Cheers

    -don
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    • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
      Banned
      Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

      According to the ACA... Cheers -don
      Voodoo. Who do? You do!

      Full credit given to the Marx Brothers. Or, was it the Three Stooges? Can't remember.

      Cheers. - Frank
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  • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
    Banned
    LoL....

    College Profile

    Size: 2,106
    % Male-Female: 64%-36%
    Average age: 27
    Students entering with bachelor's degree or higher: 77%

    Ethnicity

    American Indian: 0.4%
    Asian: 6.9%
    Black: 2.5%
    Hawaiian/Pacific Islander: 2.8%
    Hispanic: 5.5%
    White: 77.7%
    Other: 2.9%

    Doctor of Chiropractic (D.C.) Degree | Palmer College of Chiropractic
    The results of the survey showed that 45% percent of the trainers themselves have been treated by a chiropractor. Presently 31% of NFL teams use chiropractors in an official capacity as part of their staffs. However, even though not necessarily on the staff of the NFL team a full 77% of the trainers have referred to a chiropractor for evaluation or treatment. Probably the most telling result of the survey is that 100% of trainers agree that some players use chiropractic care without referral from team medical staff.

    In addition to NFL players, many athletes from many sports depend on chiropractic care. One such athlete is John Stockton, a professional basketball player and future hall of famer with the Utah Jazz. In an April 2, 2002 article that appeared in the Toronto Star, writer Doug Smith asks and answers the question concerning John Stockton's longevity, "What is the secret to John Stockton's continued success on the NBA basketball court at age 40? A Good Chiropractor."


    http://vzfchiro.com/chiropractics-role-in-sports/
    Among people seeking back pain relief alternatives, most choose chiropractic treatment. About 22 million Americans visit chiropractors annually. Of these, 7.7 million, or 35%, are seeking relief from back pain from various causes, including accidents, sports injuries, and muscle strains. Other complaints include pain in the neck, arms, and legs, and headaches.

    How Chiropractors Treat Back Pain, Benefits and Risks
    Cheers

    -don
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  • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
    Banned
    From the Mayo Clinic...

    By Mayo Clinic Staff
    Chiropractic adjustment can be effective in treating low back pain, although much of the research done shows only a modest benefit -- similar to the results of more conventional treatments. Some studies suggest that spinal manipulation also may be effective for headaches and other spine-related conditions, such as neck pain.

    Chiropractic adjustment Results - Tests and Procedures - Mayo Clinic
    Cheers

    -don
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  • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
    Banned
    Conventional vs unconventional therapy...

    Six months of acupuncture treatment appears to be more effective than conventional therapy in treating low back pain, according to a study in the Sept. 24 issue of Archives of Internal Medicine, one of the JAMA/Archives journals, although the study suggests that both sham acupuncture and traditional Chinese verum acupuncture appear to be effective in treating low back pain.

    <snip>

    "The superiority of both forms of acupuncture suggests a common underlying mechanism that may act on pain generation, transmission of pain signals or processing of pain signals by the central nervous system and that is stronger than the action mechanism of conventional therapy," the authors conclude. "Acupuncture gives physicians a promising and effective treatment option for chronic low back pain, with few adverse effects or contraindications. The improvements in all primary and secondary outcome measures were significant and lasted long after completion of treatment."

    Acupuncture May Be More Effective Than Conventional Therapy In Treating Lower Back Pain -- ScienceDaily
    Cheers

    -don
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    I've been to chiropractors. I loved the one I had in Colorado. He was a miracle worker. Very well versed on natural med, too.

    As far as that video about homeopathy - if this guy is correct, all I can say is.......um........I think I can stick to med the way I do it.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      I used to go to a chiropractor when I had severe lower back pain. He gave me treatments that genuinely helped, and gave me some good advice.

      But he's not a medical doctor. If I have a heart attack, I'm going to the hospital, where a Homeopath can treat me.
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      • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        I used to go to a chiropractor when I had severe lower back pain. He gave me treatments that genuinely helped, and gave me some good advice.
        He? Her name was Bambi.
        But he's not a medical doctor. If I have a heart attack, I'm going to the hospital, where a Homeopath can treat me.
        I'm giving the eulogy.

        Cheers. - Frank
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  • Profile picture of the author elusian
    I have had some great results with homeopathic medicines like arnica (especially topically). I have also had horrible reactions to some sublingual homeopathic supplements. I think like anything else, it depends on how it interacts with your particular system.

    I do believe that some of these supplements need to be regulated. The best company that I have found to get high quality supplements is Life Extension. They are more expensive but I actually see results when I take their brand.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Arnica is poison - you need to be VERY careful if you are ingesting that. I wouldn't recommend it for anything but topical use.....in fact - I don't recommend it for anything.

    Aspirin - yep, good old willowbark derivative. It's safer than aspirin because it doesn't have the acidity, but in the long run, it's the same stuff.

    Pharms have been trying to isolate the active ingredient in Feverfew for over a couple decades now (it's for migraines), but can't get it to work outside of synergistically, so they can't make drugs out of it. That's a good thing, though, because if they could patent it as a drug for migraines it would cost a fortune and feverfew is cheap.

    Natureopaths can be quite a rip, too. Sure give someone CoQ10. It doesn't absorb. You need to take black pepper with it - the pepperine will get it into your system. So why don't they tell people that or just give them Ubiquinal? You'd think you could trust a natureopath to do that for ya? Think again. They like their money a little too well now, too. That's why I look everything up on pubmed to see what the real research results and effective dosages are. I spend a lot of time on pubmed when I need answers. What doctors give you is pharmaceutical company stuff that they know not much more about than what the pharms tell them.

    Anyone who takes anything a doctor prescribes without talking in-depth with a pharmacist about is just plain nuts. Anyone who takes anything pharmaceutical or natural without looking up the research and finding what the results of actual independent testing has to say about the stuff is taking risks they shouldn't be taking. It takes time and sometimes some extra learning (to understand terms, etc), but it's your life you are dicking around with for cripes sake.
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  • Profile picture of the author Doran Peck
    I was just visiting my nephew at the Huntsman Cancer Center in Salt Lake City. They use Essential Oils, Aroma Therapy, and Positive reinforcement programs as part of their regular rehabilitation process.

    ...but since an all knowing poster on this forum said there isn't one shred of scientific proof that such things work...I better convince the family to get my nephew outa that crackpot joint.
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    • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Doran Peck View Post

      I was just visiting my nephew at the Huntsman Cancer Center in Salt Lake City. They use Essential Oils, Aroma Therapy, and Positive reinforcement programs as part of their regular rehabilitation process.

      ...but since an all knowing poster on this forum said there isn't one shred of scientific proof that such things work...I better convince the family to get my nephew outa that crackpot joint.
      As long as he's being treated for free, I guess it's fine. lol They use it. So - what does that prove, I all-knowingly ask you?

      Reread your post to see how utterly ridiculous it is.

      Cheers. - Frank
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        Aromatherapy can help support the patient's emotional well being but can't replace the actual treatment.

        I've read stories of people claiming their cancer disappeared or "I was cured" - and digging deeper found they were never diagnosed with the disease they claimed to have. That's a problem.

        If I have a pain in my leg I'm most likely to assume a pulled muscle. I have a friend who would assume a life-threatening blood clot. She is constantly worried about "my symptoms" and talking about "cures".

        I called her one day and her husband picked up the phone...he said "let me find her for you - she's probably got her head up her a$$ looking for polyps."
        I still laugh when I remember that line.
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        • Profile picture of the author ThomM
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          Aromatherapy can help support the patient's emotional well being but can't replace the actual treatment.

          I've read stories of people claiming their cancer disappeared or "I was cured" - and digging deeper found they were never diagnosed with the disease they claimed to have. That's a problem.

          If I have a pain in my leg I'm most likely to assume a pulled muscle. I have a friend who would assume a life-threatening blood clot. She is constantly worried about "my symptoms" and talking about "cures".

          I called her one day and her husband picked up the phone...he said "let me find her for you - she's probably got her head up her a$$ looking for polyps."
          I still laugh when I remember that line.
          Very true, also mostly lacking with conventional treatments.
          Staying with cancer, the conventional treatment may be chemo but that's it. No consideration is given to the patients nutritional needs or emotional needs. When my wife had cancer one of her doctors who was suppose to be an expert in her field told me once you have cancer nutrition doesn't matter. People and especially doctors don't put enough importance on proper nutrition instead relying on pharmaceuticals to fix or prevent problems.
          An example is a friend of mine who gets every vaccine that hits the market. The latest one being the Shingles vaccine. He thinks I'm nuts and taking a big risk because I prefer to eat foods that boost your immune system, which is your bodies way of keeping the Herpes Zoster virus in check. Not to mention all the other problems that can be caused by a weak immune system. My mother suffered with Shingles for over a year before she died. Her doctors tried everything but improving the health of her immune system to get rid of it.
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          • Profile picture of the author HeySal
            Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

            Very true, also mostly lacking with conventional treatments.
            Staying with cancer, the conventional treatment may be chemo but that's it. No consideration is given to the patients nutritional needs or emotional needs. When my wife had cancer one of her doctors who was suppose to be an expert in her field told me once you have cancer nutrition doesn't matter. People and especially doctors don't put enough importance on proper nutrition instead relying on pharmaceuticals to fix or prevent problems.
            An example is a friend of mine who gets every vaccine that hits the market. The latest one being the Shingles vaccine. He thinks I'm nuts and taking a big risk because I prefer to eat foods that boost your immune system, which is your bodies way of keeping the Herpes Zoster virus in check. Not to mention all the other problems that can be caused by a weak immune system. My mother suffered with Shingles for over a year before she died. Her doctors tried everything but improving the health of her immune system to get rid of it.
            One thing I notice is that people are preoccupied with getting well. They completely ignore prevention and to me that is the most important part of the equation. Keeping your immune system strong can help avoid decisions about what kind of treatment to get.

            I also concentrate on keeping my blood purified. Lots of dandelion, chamomile, clover. Milk thistle for liver rejuvenation. Coriander seeds and boron to strip the heavy metals out. These are all scientifically proven to clean out the system. It seems it would be a lot harder to get sick if you didn't have a lot of crap floating around in there that can make you sick.

            Just seems to me that people would do a lot better working on staying well in the first place. You'd think with disease incident ratios exploding like they are, it would make some sense to worry about what your body is doing before you need to decide on what type of treatment you're gonna use for something.
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            • Profile picture of the author ThomM
              Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

              One thing I notice is that people are preoccupied with getting well. They completely ignore prevention and to me that is the most important part of the equation. Keeping your immune system strong can help avoid decisions about what kind of treatment to get.

              I also concentrate on keeping my blood purified. Lots of dandelion, chamomile, clover. Milk thistle for liver rejuvenation. Coriander seeds and boron to strip the heavy metals out. These are all scientifically proven to clean out the system. It seems it would be a lot harder to get sick if you didn't have a lot of crap floating around in there that can make you sick.

              Just seems to me that people would do a lot better working on staying well in the first place. You'd think with disease incident ratios exploding like they are, it would make some sense to worry about what your body is doing before you need to decide on what type of treatment you're gonna use for something.
              I couldn't agree more Sal. I haven't taken it to the length you have, but I do what I think is needed for me to prevent illnesses and general health problems. Prevention was why I started with coconut oil and cure and prevention why I started with ACV. Avoiding a lot of the stuff that (barely) passes for food is another thing I do.
              I also know the importance of mental health and use herbal and natural treatments as well as diet to control the train wreck I call mental health.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by Doran Peck View Post

      I was just visiting my nephew at the Huntsman Cancer Center in Salt Lake City. They use Essential Oils, Aroma Therapy, and Positive reinforcement programs as part of their regular rehabilitation process.

      ...but since an all knowing poster on this forum said there isn't one shred of scientific proof that such things work...I better convince the family to get my nephew outa that crackpot joint.
      I hope they do more than that. And I hope your nephew gets better.
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      • Profile picture of the author Doran Peck
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        I hope they do more than that. And I hope your nephew gets better.
        Thanks Claude,

        ...and yes, they've done everything under the sun for the kid...including several experimental things to battle some of the problems that arose here and there from his lack of immune system.

        What annoyed me about Franks comment is that he sure was quick to dismiss the value those processes have to the institution who is using them....an institution largely populated by people far smarter about the subject, than he is.

        In the end..I think the better argument for all of us to make would be something along the lines of ....maybe we don't know enough about this stuff to have a definitive argument one way or another.

        How's that sound
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        • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Doran Peck View Post

          How's that sound
          To me? Like a pile of steaming, hot feces?

          Cheers. - Frank
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          • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
            When my wife got into a specific range of supplements and theraputic products a few years back I looked on the bottles and a list of ingredients was there as you would expect them to be, they were natural ingredients put together in combination.

            Being of a fairly robust constitution ( I don't get ill much ) I only tried them when I felt a need too as opposed to paying a $30.00 co-pay and avoid a trip to the doctors. I found they had visible and positive effects. My wife used them extensively. She had a lot more health issues than me. She had great success with them and got rid of a lot of her ailments. She uses a Natrapath doctor who also advocates this range of products amongst other stuff.

            A few weeks back she had a yeast infection in various parts of her body which was getting worst everyday. Her Doc sent her some natural remedy and it cleared up within a few days.

            There is no doubt in my mind that this stuff works. The wife became a rep for it and we saw some remarkable turnarounds in others too.

            However, as Frank points out so forcefully, so does the other stuff. The way it gets there may have side effects, it may kill some people ( 100,000 a year is the current estimate in the US) but think of all the millions it does not. It alleviates there pain and gives them some semblance of normality.

            For many people, they just go with the flow, do what everyone else does, go to the doc, get the fix and lead a passable life. You don't get exposed too and do not have the need to try the alt stuff (as it's unjustifiably called) Only if the doc says, well nothing we can do, here's some morphine, go home and die, then they may take a look around for alternatives.

            In the UK and other countries all the pharm medication is flat rate prices and paid for via the health taxes. It is more difficult to get people to consider alt stuff because of that. Going with the flow is cheaper and easier. In the US the situation is a lot different. So people look into natural remedies a little more but quick fix still rules.

            I don't think there's any real debate that a good healthy diet, natural foods, less red meat (or none), natural products, exercise etc would prevent a lot of illnesses and conditions appearing in the first place but we have become so fast paced, healthy food is boring, burgers are great, quick fixes are preferable.
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    • Profile picture of the author mojojuju
      Originally Posted by Doran Peck View Post

      I was just visiting my nephew at the Huntsman Cancer Center in Salt Lake City. They use Essential Oils, Aroma Therapy, and Positive reinforcement programs as part of their regular rehabilitation process.

      ...but since an all knowing poster on this forum said there isn't one shred of scientific proof that such things work...I better convince the family to get my nephew outa that crackpot joint.
      I'll bet the Huntsman Cancer Center also uses pillows, water, television, and band-aids, but that's not to say that those things cure cancer.
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      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
        Originally Posted by mojojuju View Post

        I'll bet the Huntsman Cancer Center also uses pillows, water, television, and band-aids, but that's not to say that those things cure cancer.
        It what part of his post did he say they cured cancer using those methods?
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        • Profile picture of the author mojojuju
          Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

          It what part of his post did he say they cured cancer using those methods?
          I'll bet they didn't cure anything.
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          • Profile picture of the author ThomM
            Originally Posted by mojojuju View Post

            I'll bet they didn't cure anything.
            They're not suppose to cure anything. They are used to strengthen things like your immune system and mental health. You know things that make the treatments that do cure the cancer more effective.
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  • Profile picture of the author Doran Peck
    Hmm...not sure where you got the idea that it is free treatment...me thinks you suffer from having too many preordained ideas in your head.


    Then...I'm curious...answer this question for me please.


    The cancer institute is using these therapies because..
    A)They believe in wasting patients crucial time on things that don't work.
    B) They have sufficient reason to implement these things even though patients time is crucial.

    Frank I'm just going to be blunt.

    You are talking out your ass. You don't know near enough about whats going on in the medical community to be professing the types of things that you are.


    Have you gone through the process of being a doctor?...do you even know what they know...or more importantly what they don't know?

    There are several diverse groups of Doctors all across America currently implementing and studying natural remedies.


    Frank are you in on those conversations? ...are you contributing to those journals being passed around from group to group?


    There IS data, that shows these things positively effect health recovery....however, you've apparently assumed that if it isn't on Google or in a published book, it doesn't exist.


    I have personally worked with doctors from the University of Colorado and Naval doctors from DC, for my own health issues (Meniers disease). Those doctors are very knowledgeable in alternative medicine and are the ones who introduced me to some of the therapies that I follow today, which primarily consist of Foot Zoning ( Reflexology), Essential Oils, and a managed diet.


    Level with us, does your all knowingness come from Google, Frank? Is that why you “Have your thumb on the beat”...as that ol' journalists saying goes?


    Your whole approach to this thread strikes a nerve with me because I AM LIVING PROOF that alternative medicine works.


    So from where I'm sitting....you sound like someone talking out their ass.
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    • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Doran Peck View Post

      Hmm...not sure where you got the idea that it is free treatment...me thinks you suffer from having too many preordained ideas in your head.
      Besides being short on critical thinking you can't even read at a 5th grade level. I never said he was being treated for free. I said as long as he's being treated for free - great. If not, ask for a refund.
      Then...I'm curious...answer this question for me please
      The cancer institute is using these therapies because..
      A)They believe in wasting patients crucial time on things that don't work.
      No they believe in a 'mind-body' approach. Nothing wrong with doing things that improve your mental well-being as long as you're not naive enough to believe that they are a 'cure' for anything. They're not.
      B) They have sufficient reason to implement these things even though patients time is crucial.
      See above.
      Frank I'm just going to be blunt.
      Dish it out, as long as you can take it. lol
      You are talking out your ass. You don't know near enough about whats going on in the medical community to be professing the types of things that you are.
      You're brimming with ridiculous comments, aren't you?
      Have you gone through the process of being a doctor?...do you even know what they know...or more importantly what they don't know?
      If a doctor believes that aroma therapy is going to cure you of anything, they can't be my doctor. You can have them.
      There are several diverse groups of Doctors all across America currently implementing and studying natural remedies.
      And some people read chicken turds. What's your point?
      Frank are you in on those conversations? ...are you contributing to those journals being passed around from group to group?
      Oh, my. You've just outed yourself as someone desperate enough to believe anything.
      There IS data, that shows these things positively effect health recovery....however, you've apparently assumed that if it isn't on Google or in a published book, it doesn't exist.
      Since you are incapable of a fact-based discussion, I'll be leaving soon.
      I have personally worked with doctors from the University of Colorado and Naval doctors from DC, for my own health issues (Meniers disease). Those doctors are very knowledgeable in alternative medicine and are the ones who introduced me to some of the therapies that I follow today, which primarily consist of Foot Zoning
      Calling Dr. Scholl. What number are you???
      ( Reflexology),
      You're feakin' kidding me, right? I get a gag-reflex when I hear this drivel.
      Essential Oils,
      Hash oil, maybe. That's about as 'essential' as it gets. lol
      and a managed diet.
      I'm happy for you. I'm sorry that you're placing your trust in quacks, but hey, it's your life. Some folks think that eating at Mickey D's is a managed diet. Hey, but you know everything. Just like me. Funny how that works both ways, isn't it? Of course, you're right and I'm wrong - but I'm the one with the problem, right?

      You are free to believe whatever you choose to believe. I have made no effort to change your mind. That's like arguing about 'trickle-down' economics.
      Level with us, does your all knowingness come from Google, Frank? Is that why you "Have your thumb on the beat"...as that ol' journalists saying goes?
      Nope, just a lifetime of personal experience that has shaped my personal beliefs. You don't begrudge me those, do you? Or must I subscribe to your beliefs to be a good person in your mind? You're a joke, but not very funny.
      Your whole approach to this thread strikes a nerve with me because I AM LIVING PROOF that alternative medicine works.
      Works for you, if you believe it does. Not anyone else, unless they believe it does, regardless of how mightily you SCREAM it.
      So from where I'm sitting....you sound like someone talking out their ass.
      Once again, I would never try to dissuade you of your belief. Enjoy whatever floats your boat. It doesn't affect me in the slightest. Nor does the opinion of anyone that I have no intellectual respect for.

      You'll forgive me if I don't engage you any further. You are just too boring for it to even be any fun.

      Have a great day. - Frank
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    It isn't manufacture by a pharmaceutical company that makes something work, Frank. There's been a lot of clinical studies that prove some elements work. They aren't put out by pharms because there's no money in it for them........and pharms are corporations. They don't do anything that doesn't rake bucks. There are a lot of elements that have been proven that in the correct concentrations for the correct duration cause cell apoptosis in cancer cells. I used a mix of those along with items that strengthen the natural immune system with great success. This success was not a product of mind. It was a product of using the right things. I wasn't quite able to explain to the dog what I was doing so the continual shrinkage of that tumor appears to be because I used the right stuff in the right amounts long enough to kill the tumor.

    If the pharms could, they would be patenting the stuff. They can't, so it's not being offered by our medical industry -- "industry" being the key phrase here. Clinical proof, being the key to what to use.

    A real proof of what may or may not be a good way to go in treatment is watching if a doctor will use it themselves when they fall sick. I know a lot of trash being doled out by the medical community (this includes the alternative med community) that doctors won't touch themselves. Not a good advertisement, if you ask me.
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    • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
      Banned
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      It isn't manufacture by a pharmaceutical company that makes something work, Frank.
      I never stated anything remotely along those lines.
      There's been a lot of clinical studies that prove some elements work.
      Another statement that is an an opinion that can't be supported by verifiable statement of fact.

      A 'clinical' study is nothing more than a 'testimonial.' Clinical studies are something that are written by marketers to sell a product. If you read the fine print at the bottom of them, that bit of information is clearly stated.

      A 'clinical study' by SynthMed Pharaceutical Laboratories is NOT the same as a 'clinical trial' at Johns Hopkins. I know that because even though the former sounds more impressive than the latter, I just made that name up, on the spot. Yet, if I told a group of people that I had 'clinical study' put out by SynthMed Pharaceutical Laboratories that stated that drinking beet juice 3 times per day would guarantee a 20 pound weight loss per month, a certain segment of them would believe it and do it. Some would even lose weight, So - does that make it proof?
      They aren't put out by pharms because there's no money in it for them........and pharms are corporations.
      As is every purveyor of quackery on the planet.
      They don't do anything that doesn't rake bucks.
      Nor does any purveyor of quackery on the planet.
      There are a lot of elements that have been proven that in the correct concentrations for the correct duration cause cell apoptosis in cancer cells.
      Some say that and others believe it.
      I used a mix of those along with items that strengthen the natural immune system with great success. This success was not a product of mind. It was a product of using the right things.
      You can believe that if you choose. You cannot prove it. Saying something does not make it fact. Taking something and believing you see a result does not prove that it did. Listen, I don't care if you believe that giving yourself peanut butter and jelly enemas curse Parkinson's. I would never try to dissuade you from believing that. I draw the line at you thinking that because you believe something, for whatever reason, that it is scientific fact.

      Next you'll want me to believe that vaccinating children against measles and mumps leads to Down Syndrome as postulated by that deep scientific mind, Michele Bachman, who's not aware of the world she lives in to the point of not knowing that her own husband is as gay as pink ink. But thousands of women stopped vaccinating their children because she said it was dangerous and they believed that rubbish. Of course these are generally the same women that will say, after the child dies, "It was God's wish. I was powerless." Makes it hard to believe that it's 2014 and the species has made it this far.
      I wasn't quite able to explain to the dog what I was doing so the continual shrinkage of that tumor appears to be because I used the right stuff in the right amounts long enough to kill the tumor.
      Nothing more than your belief and no way to prove that one had anything to do with the other. Again, I'm not trying to burst your bubble and if you believe it and it makes you happy and the dog is well - then all of that is perfectly fine, it's just not science. There is simply no basis in science to back up your observation. None whatsoever. You know that. Why do you insist on trying to bend someone's will to your way of thinking? If you believe in 'individual freedom' as you so often claim, then why can't I believe what I want and you believe what you want? I just can't figure that out.

      You may as well believe in statues of the virgin Mary with bleeding stigmata or any other type of miracle. None of it can be proven. Not a single instance.
      If the pharms could, they would be patenting the stuff. They can't, so it's not being offered by our medical industry -- "industry" being the key phrase here. Clinical proof, being the key to what to use.
      They don't need to patent quackery to sell it. These clowns sell ginkgo biloba, so I guess you are correct. They'd sell anything to make a buck. lol
      A real proof of what may or may not be a good way to go in treatment is watching if a doctor will use it themselves when they fall sick. I know a lot of trash being doled out by the medical community (this includes the alternative med community) that doctors won't touch themselves. Not a good advertisement, if you ask me.
      What doctor do you know that tells you what he uses on himself and why in heaven's name would you believe a word of what they said?

      This started over some ass-clown wanting to take a shot at me because out of all the post that were like mine, he ID'd me as the one he could dump on with the least amount of push back as people love it when they see that someone can get a rise out of me. He called me an 'ass' because I did not agree with his beliefs which were nothing more than that - his 'beliefs." Let me state again for the record - I don't care what anyone believes and just like in the example I used previously, although 'trickle-down economics' has been proven to be a giant myth that has never been proven true in 40 years of trying, there are people that believe it is gospel and that you are just insane if you don't agree with the premise.

      It seems to me that the people who rail about 'personal freedom to choose' just want to be assured that you choose what they believe.

      No matter what anyone thinks or says about me, I will not surrender my beliefs until and only when they are proven wrong There are few things I believe in as much as science. No - I do not think that it's infallible, but I'm willing to put my faith in it, 100% of the time.

      I have a pacemaker/defibrillator and I take 9 medications. Yes, I try to eat better do as much as I can to not make matters worse but if you think for a minute that if I stopped taking my meds and started guzzling aloe vera and living off of freakin' bok choy and alfalfa sprouts that I'd still be alive in a few months, you are totally delusional.

      And I am very sympathetic to those battling cancer. One of my best friends recently had a double mastectomy and still has cancer in her brain, spine, liver and kidneys and seeing her breaks my heart. Additionally, I lost my own kid sister to lung cancer less that a decade ago. Not a day goes by that I don't think about her and ask myself why the person who abused themselves their entire life (me) is still alive and my beautiful sister who did everything she could to take care of herself would die of lung cancer, even though she had stopped smoking 25 years earlier.

      I don't just pull my personal beliefs out of my ass. I have an entire lifetime of observation and more study than you will ever know on which to base them. I'm an extremely curious person. I search out relevant, factual data to help me navigate my way through life. All of my beliefs about medicine and science could be totally wrong. That said, you are going to have to do more than just tell me they are. You are going to have to prove it. People are angry because they know that they can't prove it. It's infuriating when you believe in something so strongly, are convinced that you are correct and don't possess any way to prove your contention. Hey! Sorry about that. Don't hate me because I'm beautiful.

      There has not been a single post in this thread wheres someone has claimed that this or that has improved any serious ailment - that is based on anything more than personal belief, anecdotal evidence, conjecture and/or pure, unadulterated supposition.

      'Clinical studies' only serve a purpose in life when you run out of toilet paper.

      Cheers. - Frank

      An email that I received, today from a NASA scientist, so obviously it contains nothing but scientific fact. lol:

      Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2014 01:08:40 +0000 (UTC)
      From: Cognimax@email-huxley.com
      To: privateuser@bluebottle.com
      Subject: [BREAKING NEWS] - NASA Doctor Reveals How To REVERSE Brain Aging!

      How is it that a 65 year old man has shown virtually no signs of aging in his brain?

      With THIS! - http://goo.gl/G3FZSN

      A former NASA scientist that fears retaliation for his breaking research has identified a natural ingredient that makes you smarter through the promotion of nerve growth, enhanced functions of the brain, and helps to reverse the natural mental capacity decline that can occur during long lifespans.

      Take advantage of these amazing, all natural mental enhancements NOW before it's no longer available!

      http://goo.gl/G3FZSN

      Availability and supply are both short, as the demand for this is VERY high!

      =================

      Break out your credit cards, people. You heard it from a NASA scientist. Cut me a friggin' break!
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      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
        Drugs and Supplements - Drugs and Supplements - Mayo Clinic
        Even the Mayo Clinic understands that many natural remedies work, damn anti science fools.
        Speaking of science, it is basically just the understanding of how things work in nature after all.
        Science refers to a system of acquiring knowledge. This system uses observation and experimentation to describe and explain natural phenomena. Science definition - What is science?
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        • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
          Banned
          Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

          Drugs and Supplements - Drugs and Supplements - Mayo Clinic
          Even the Mayo Clinic understands that many natural remedies work, damn anti science fools.
          Speaking of science, it is basically just the understanding of how things work in nature after all.
          Ho-hum. Sorry - that's all I can muster since your only aim is to be argumentative with nothing to back it up.

          Sad, as I would have expected so much more from someone as thoughtful and normally well-reasoned as you.

          Lazy or just tired? Oh, no - wait. Your mind is already made up as you are living proof of the healing powers of non-conventional medicine. Got it. :-)

          Cheers. - Frank

          P.S. Let it drop. There's no convincing someone that doesn't want to be convinced. And don't say that I'm the one that doesn't want to be convinced. I'd love nothing more. Unfortunately facts would be required and none are in your possession. Post away - but I shan't participate any longer. A total waste of my precious time on the planet.

          Oh, there is science and then there is scientific fact. Two distinct animals.
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          • Profile picture of the author ThomM
            Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

            Ho-hum. Sorry - that's all I can muster since your only aim is to be argumentative with nothing to back it up.

            Sad, as I would have expected so much more from someone as thoughtful and normally well-reasoned as you.

            Lazy or just tired? Oh, no - wait. Your mind is already made up as you are living proof of the healing powers of non-conventional medicine. Got it. :-)

            Cheers. - Frank

            P.S. Let it drop. There's no convincing someone that doesn't want to be convinced. And don't say that I'm the one that doesn't want to be convinced. I'd love nothing more. Unfortunately facts would be required and none are in your possession. Post away - but I shan't participate any longer. A total waste of my precious time on the planet.

            Oh, there is science and then there is scientific fact. Two distinct animals.
            Right Frank. I suppose the Mayo Clinic are basing what they say on just hearsay and speculation. How about you showing your facts based on science that no natural treatment or remedy works? So far whenever anyone has given you any facts here you just dismiss them.
            I don't give a crap one way or the other what you put in your body, but I do with mine.
            Through the research I've done I have been able to alleviate myself of many ailments using natural remedies. You can call it what you want, but the fact is I don't have the ailments I once did thanks to natural methods and I don't have to deal with any of the side effects from pharmaceutical drugs.
            So call it all crap or whatever else you want, the truth is you don't have science on your side here at all and you don't have anything to back up the claims you're making about natural methods.
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            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
              Man, I don't care so much about the arguing. But I bet the Make Up Sex will be incredible.
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              • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
                Banned
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                Man, I don't care so much about the arguing. But I bet the Make Up Sex will be incredible.
                Are you giving notice that at some point you plan to remove your head from my nether regions so that others may partake in the bounty?

                I've heard that from you before, but actions do speak louder than words.

                Cheers. - Frank
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            • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
              Banned
              Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

              So far whenever anyone has given you any facts here you just dismiss them.
              Be fair - and honest. I did NOT say that there are NO natural treatments that can't or don't work on some things at varying levels. That would be idiotic.

              I said that homeopathy is bunk and that massage oils, foot reflexology and associated treatments don't cure cancer. Kay's experience with her dog is nothing more than something she believes to be true and can't be proven in any way, shape or form. We all know that's a fact and her belief otherwise can't be proven.

              Again, if you want to believe that your actions have cured you of whatever ailed you, that's fine. Just don't expect me to go along with you on that.

              When your life hangs in the balance, only then will we know which side of the scale you decide to put your thumb on. I think I know already, which way you will lean. I hope that you never have to make that decision, but if you do, I hope you practice some common sense.

              Cheers. - Frank
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              • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

                Be fair - and honest. I did NOT say that there are NO natural treatments that can't or don't work on some things at varying levels. That would be idiotic.

                I said that homeopathy is bunk and that massage oils, foot reflexology and associated treatments don't cure cancer. Kay's experience with her dog is nothing more than something she believes to be true and can't be proven in any way, shape or form. We all know that's a fact and her belief otherwise can't be proven.

                Again, if you want to believe that your actions have cured you of whatever ailed you, that's fine. Just don't expect me to go along with you on that.

                When your life hangs in the balance, only then will we know which side of the scale you decide to put your thumb on. I think I know already, which way you will lean. I hope that you never have to make that decision, but if you do, I hope you practice some common sense.

                Cheers. - Frank
                First Frank it was Sal not Kay and when you can see or feel tumors shrinking, that says something about the treatment.
                I don't expect or care if you go along with me, but to imply that treatments that are suppose to work on certain things don't when used, just because you don't want to believe is going a little to far.
                If you think you know which way I will lean when my life is on the line, then you know it will be with natural treatments.
                I've been taking coconut oil as a preventative to Alzheimer's which has shown up in my family, I've been taking it for a couple years and now there is scientific evidence as to why it may work.
                If (most likely when) I face cancer it will be cannabis oil, and curcumin at the least in addition to tailoring my diet to fit my bodies needs at that time. If surgery was a possible solution I would conceder it, the only thing defiantly off the table is Chemo or radiation therapy.
                In the mean time I do what I can through nutrition to prepare my body to not get any disease.
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                • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                  First Frank it was Sal not Kay
                  Sorry Kay. I meant Sal.
                  and when you can see or feel tumors shrinking, that says something about the treatment.
                  No it doesn't, Thom. They two things can have nothing to do with one another. Why is it so hard for you to simply concede that possibility? Are you so infallible that it is impossible that you are wrong?

                  Let me ask you a question.?I have diabetes. I should avoid white flour products - totally. I have been having a bagel with cream cheese and a cup of coffee with cream and sugar every day for breakfast for the past two plus years. I had blood work done at the VA last week. My A1c level was 5.5, down from 5.9 when checked 4 months ago. Now, I could very easily state that my breakfast regimen is keeping my A1c at a level that is implausible for someone with full-blown diabetes. Most peeps with the ailment have a number around 10 and my doctor said that his worst patient has a reading of slightly over 16 and is not long for this world. Do you really believe that such a foul breakfast is working those wonders on me? Of course not. Sometimes things just don't go hand in hand. Can my doctor explain it? No.
                  I don't expect or care if you go along with me, but to imply that treatments that are suppose to work on certain things don't when used, just because you don't want to believe is going a little to far.
                  It's not that I don't want to believe it. Who wouldn't want it to be true? Imagine how much easier life would. Why would you say I don't want to believe? What I'm saying is that there is no valid reason for me to believe it. None, whatsoever. That's all. Don't be angry. It's not a personal attack on you.
                  If you think you know which way I will lean when my life is on the line, then you know it will be with natural treatments.
                  I'm very sorry to hear that, but that is each person's choice.
                  I've been taking coconut oil as a preventative to Alzheimer's which has shown up in my family, I've been taking it for a couple years and now there is scientific evidence as to why it may work.
                  Yes, those claims are put in the style of, 'may work,' it's believed, 'could have an effect,' oftentimes can be shown to lead to improvement in some individuals' Good luck with that. I mean it.
                  If (most likely when) I face cancer it will be cannabis oil, and curcumin at the least in addition to tailoring my diet to fit my bodies needs at that time. If surgery was a possible solution I would conceder it, the only thing defiantly off the table is Chemo or radiation therapy.
                  That's easy to say now and I hate to be offensive but that's the second silliest thing I've read in OT other than the ridiculous claim that someone made previously that they would have killed themselves rather than be traded for the 5 Taliban prisoners. To this day I still piss myself laughing over that one. That was just plain idiotically stupid. Your comment is tragic. All I can say to that Thom is may the God that you probably believe have mercy on you. You're going to need it.
                  In the mean time I do what I can through nutrition to prepare my body to not get any disease.
                  A laudable goal which you can certainly have some success at. What are you going to do when they ultimately discover that bok choy, kills??? :-)

                  I'll be dead long before you since it's a wonder that I'm still breathing. Every morning when my eyes open automatically at 5 AM I am totally freakin' incredulous and I ask myself the same question every time. Please tell me how this is possible? Then I grab my pill vials and pop that yummy everything bagel in the toaster. lol Without modern, traditional, medical science I would have passed-on, decades ago. I am a living testament to the power of traditional medicine and that is why I defend it so vigorously. There is nothing wrong with pursuing a different path, but it makes no sense that when push comes to shove that you don't avail yourself of all that science has to offer you. I hope that if that day ever comes you'll remember this entreaty.

                  Now, can we stop arguing over something that neither of us can prove and just accept the fact that it takes all kinds of people that believe in all kinds of different things to make the world go round and that I'm a freakin' genius and you are endowed (and I use the term, loosely) with the IQ of a tree sloth? :-)

                  Peace, buddy.

                  Cheers. - Frank
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      • Profile picture of the author HeySal
        Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

        I never stated anything remotely along those lines.
        Another statement that is an an opinion that can't be supported by verifiable statement of fact.

        A 'clinical' study is nothing more than a 'testimonial.' Clinical studies are something that are written by marketers to sell a product. If you read the fine print at the bottom of them, that bit of information is clearly stated.

        A 'clinical study' by SynthMed Pharaceutical Laboratories is NOT the same as a 'clinical trial' at Johns Hopkins. I know that because even though the former sounds more impressive than the latter, I just made that name up, on the spot. Yet, if I told a group of people that I had 'clinical study' put out by SynthMed Pharaceutical Laboratories that stated that drinking beet juice 3 times per day would guarantee a 20 pound weight loss per month, a certain segment of them would believe it and do it. Some would even lose weight, So - does that make it proof?
        As is every purveyor of quackery on the planet.
        Nor does any purveyor of quackery on the planet.
        Some say that and others believe it.
        You can believe that if you choose. You cannot prove it. Saying something does not make it fact. Taking something and believing you see a result does not prove that it did. Listen, I don't care if you believe that giving yourself peanut butter and jelly enemas curse Parkinson's. I would never try to dissuade you from believing that. I draw the line at you thinking that because you believe something, for whatever reason, that it is scientific fact.

        Next you'll want me to believe that vaccinating children against measles and mumps leads to Down Syndrome as postulated by that deep scientific mind, Michele Bachman, who's not aware of the world she lives in to the point of not knowing that her own husband is as gay as pink ink. But thousands of women stopped vaccinating their children because she said it was dangerous and they believed that rubbish. Of course these are generally the same women that will say, after the child dies, "It was God's wish. I was powerless." Makes it hard to believe that it's 2014 and the species has made it this far.
        Nothing more than your belief and no way to prove that one had anything to do with the other. Again, I'm not trying to burst your bubble and if you believe it and it makes you happy and the dog is well - then all of that is perfectly fine, it's just not science. There is simply no basis in science to back up your observation. None whatsoever. You know that. Why do you insist on trying to bend someone's will to your way of thinking? If you believe in 'individual freedom' as you so often claim, then why can't I believe what I want and you believe what you want? I just can't figure that out.

        You may as well believe in statues of the virgin Mary with bleeding stigmata or any other type of miracle. None of it can be proven. Not a single instance.
        They don't need to patent quackery to sell it. These clowns sell ginkgo biloba, so I guess you are correct. They'd sell anything to make a buck. lol
        What doctor do you know that tells you what he uses on himself and why in heaven's name would you believe a word of what they said?

        This started over some ass-clown wanting to take a shot at me because out of all the post that were like mine, he ID'd me as the one he could dump on with the least amount of push back as people love it when they see that someone can get a rise out of me. He called me an 'ass' because I did not agree with his beliefs which were nothing more than that - his 'beliefs." Let me state again for the record - I don't care what anyone believes and just like in the example I used previously, although 'trickle-down economics' has been proven to be a giant myth that has never been proven true in 40 years of trying, there are people that believe it is gospel and that you are just insane if you don't agree with the premise.

        It seems to me that the people who rail about 'personal freedom to choose' just want to be assured that you choose what they believe.

        No matter what anyone thinks or says about me, I will not surrender my beliefs until and only when they are proven wrong There are few things I believe in as much as science. No - I do not think that it's infallible, but I'm willing to put my faith in it, 100% of the time.

        I have a pacemaker/defibrillator and I take 9 medications. Yes, I try to eat better do as much as I can to not make matters worse but if you think for a minute that if I stopped taking my meds and started guzzling aloe vera and living off of freakin' bok choy and alfalfa sprouts that I'd still be alive in a few months, you are totally delusional.

        And I am very sympathetic to those battling cancer. One of my best friends recently had a double mastectomy and still has cancer in her brain, spine, liver and kidneys and seeing her breaks my heart. Additionally, I lost my own kid sister to lung cancer less that a decade ago. Not a day goes by that I don't think about her and ask myself why the person who abused themselves their entire life (me) is still alive and my beautiful sister who did everything she could to take care of herself would die of lung cancer, even though she had stopped smoking 25 years earlier.

        I don't just pull my personal beliefs out of my ass. I have an entire lifetime of observation and more study than you will ever know on which to base them. I'm an extremely curious person. I search out relevant, factual data to help me navigate my way through life. All of my beliefs about medicine and science could be totally wrong. That said, you are going to have to do more than just tell me they are. You are going to have to prove it. People are angry because they know that they can't prove it. It's infuriating when you believe in something so strongly, are convinced that you are correct and don't possess any way to prove your contention. Hey! Sorry about that. Don't hate me because I'm beautiful.

        There has not been a single post in this thread wheres someone has claimed that this or that has improved any serious ailment - that is based on anything more than personal belief, anecdotal evidence, conjecture and/or pure, unadulterated supposition.

        'Clinical studies' only serve a purpose in life when you run out of toilet paper.

        Cheers. - Frank

        An email that I received, today from a NASA scientist, so obviously it contains nothing but scientific fact. lol:

        Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2014 01:08:40 +0000 (UTC)
        From: Cognimax@email-huxley.com
        To: privateuser@bluebottle.com
        Subject: [BREAKING NEWS] - NASA Doctor Reveals How To REVERSE Brain Aging!

        How is it that a 65 year old man has shown virtually no signs of aging in his brain?

        With THIS! - http://goo.gl/G3FZSN

        A former NASA scientist that fears retaliation for his breaking research has identified a natural ingredient that makes you smarter through the promotion of nerve growth, enhanced functions of the brain, and helps to reverse the natural mental capacity decline that can occur during long lifespans.

        Take advantage of these amazing, all natural mental enhancements NOW before it's no longer available!

        http://goo.gl/G3FZSN

        Availability and supply are both short, as the demand for this is VERY high!

        =================

        Break out your credit cards, people. You heard it from a NASA scientist. Cut me a friggin' break!
        When I say clinical study, what I mean is medical research - Universities, independent labs, etc, so yeah - they know what the stuff does or doesn't do and at what doses. Not going to argue your definition of "clinical study", though.

        As far as NASA scientist. Kewl. If he tells me something about space or physics, I will bet that I'll be inclined to believe him without even fact checking. Medicinal though? Not likely. I seriously am extremely fussy about what research I pay attention to. Extremely. There have been lives hanging in the balance of my research - mine, my dog, my sister. I don't f**k around when I've got my own a** and loved ones at stake. I get it right. When Ricky got sick I already had 30 years of study of naturals under my belt. When the vet said cancer - another 700 hours went in intensive. After I did the research, I had to find out if a dog could eat it - how much, what side effects might be, and cancer in general. I studied every damned thing that went into that dogs mouth for 6 months. There was no room for error. He was out of time. My sister had a lot of breathing room and most of it was already there. She already knew it worked. She saw it with her own eyes.
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  • Profile picture of the author M3C
    Gawd, when are people going to understand the simple yet huge difference between causation and correlation.

    Embarrassing.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    About the time that they realize that Tim Ferriss probably wouldn't know the effectiveness of a medical treatment if it bit him in the butt, huh?
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    Beyond the Path

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  • Profile picture of the author fin
    Homeopathy does sound like wacko science, but I believe the body can cure itself.
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      No it doesn't, Thom. They two things can have nothing to do with one another. Why is it so hard for you to simply concede that possibility? Are you so infallible that it is impossible that you are wrong?
      Why is it so hard for you to concede that one could of caused the other? People here have given you their own experiences with natural remedies and you have dismissed everyone as being wrong, based on what?
      Let me ask you a question.?I have diabetes. I should avoid white flour products - totally. I have been having a bagel with cream cheese and a cup of coffee with cream and sugar every day for breakfast for the past two plus years. I had blood work done at the VA last week. My A1c level was 5.5, down from 5.9 when checked 4 months ago. Now, I could very easily state that my breakfast regimen is keeping my A1c at a level that is implausible for someone with full-blown diabetes. Most peeps with the ailment have a number around 10 and my doctor said that his worst patient has a reading of slightly over 16 and is not long for this world. Do you really believe that such a foul breakfast is working those wonders on me? Of course not. Sometimes things just don't go hand in hand. Can my doctor explain it? No.
      We're talking about two different things. You are taking something at random that isn't even thought of being a remedy. What myself and others are talking about are specific things that are taken for a specific ailment that have specific properties. Many of which chemist have learned how to synthesize giving us the pharmaceutical equivalent.
      It's not that I don't want to believe it. Who wouldn't want it to be true? Imagine how much easier life would. Why would you say I don't want to believe? What I'm saying is that there is no valid reason for me to believe it. None, whatsoever. That's all. Don't be angry. It's not a personal attack on you.
      Look back on your posts. I'd say your mind is made up and nothing is going to change your mind.
      Here's what you said when I posted a link to the Mayo Clinic which only recommends a herbal remedy if there is scientific evidence to back it up.
      Ho-hum. Sorry - that's all I can muster since your only aim is to be argumentative with nothing to back it up.
      That's easy to say now and I hate to be offensive but that's the second silliest thing I've read in OT other than the ridiculous claim that someone made previously that they would have killed themselves rather than be traded for the 5 Taliban prisoners. To this day I still piss myself laughing over that one. That was just plain idiotically stupid. Your comment is tragic. All I can say to that Thom is may the God that you probably believe have mercy on you. You're going to need it.
      Why Frank it's based on research and science. 20 Medical Studies That Show Cannabis Can Cure Cancer | Collective-Evolution
      Of course you'll just blow that of as being nonsense.
      Quote:
      In the mean time I do what I can through nutrition to prepare my body to not get any disease.
      A laudable goal which you can certainly have some success at. What are you going to do when they ultimately discover that bok choy, kills??? :-)[/QUOTE]Of course it can be successful to a large degree. Proper nutrition and proper exorcise are the keys to a healthy body and mind.
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      • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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        Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

        20 Medical Studies That Show Cannabis Can Cure Cancer | Collective-Evolution
        Of course you'll just blow that of as being nonsense.
        Yes. Two words come to mind. Complete and utter. Slightly redundant but I really want to get the point across. lol

        You're hopeless.

        Cheers. - Frank
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        • Profile picture of the author ThomM
          Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

          Yes. Two words come to mind. Complete and utter. Slightly redundant but I really want to get the point across. lol

          You're hopeless.

          Cheers. - Frank
          It looks more like you are hopeless Frank.
          20 scientific studies are on that page all linked to the scientific journals for their fields where the studies are published and you still call it nonsense.
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          Life: Nature's way of keeping meat fresh
          Getting old ain't for sissy's
          As you are I was, as I am you will be
          You can't fix stupid, but you can always out smart it.

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          • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
            Banned
            Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

            It looks more like you are hopeless Frank
            Yep. It appears so. That makes us exactly the same.

            Cheers. - Frank
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Originally Posted by fin View Post

      Homeopathy does sound like wacko science, but I believe the body can cure itself.
      There are a couple things I take that are called homeopathic, but I agree when you look at it as a whole it does sound pretty bazaar.
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