new look at the fast food wage demands

9 years ago

Our military is underpaid, especially at the lower end of the ranks, and especially for what they have to do.

To be fair though, they do get things for free that others have to pay for: health care, dental care, meals (such as it is), and housing unless they want to live off the base/ship.

They're still underpaid though.

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ThomM

9 years ago

You forgot the private jets

About the only celebrity that I would listen to as far as the environment goes is Ed Begley Jr.
The people clamoring for a 15 min. wage for fast food workers are idiots with no clue about things like the economy or the value of the dollar. You look at any area of the country where the economy is going good and there are more jobs then people to fill them and you'll find the min. wage to not be an issue. In fact look at any industry that has a problem finding workers and you'll find jobs that pay more then min. wage and programs in place to train unskilled workers for those jobs.

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seasoned

9 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

You forgot the private jets

About the only celebrity that I would listen to as far as the environment goes is Ed Begley Jr.
The people clamoring for a 15 min. wage for fast food workers are idiots with no clue about things like the economy or the value of the dollar. You look at any area of the country where the economy is going good and there are more jobs then people to fill them and you'll find the min. wage to not be an issue. In fact look at any industry that has a problem finding workers and you'll find jobs that pay more then min. wage and programs in place to train unskilled workers for those jobs.

Forget Ed Begley! HE'S a hypocrite ALSO! He SEEMS to be LESS of one than most others, but still....

And it has been known for MILLENIA that the people with skills and/or special access get paid more! You can even see it in the Bible! So there is no excuse. Let's take HEALTHCARE, for example! The original "ACA" bill included ******DRAMATICALLY****** HIGHER wages for "healthcare workers"! It actually called for LVNs to get FREE education so they could be paid as doctors even though they worked as LVNs! BVNPT - Licensed Vocational Nurses (LVNs)

1. WHAT IS A LICENSED VOCATIONAL NURSE (LVN)?
An entry-level health care provider who is responsible for rendering basic nursing care.

A vocational nurse practices under the direction of a physician or registered nurse.

The licensee is not an independent practitioner.

GOT THAT!?!?!? An LVN is an ENTRY LEVEL person that gives BASIC nursing care under the DIRECTION of one with more training! They are NOT allowed to work autonomously!

And we ALL know that doctors get paid a LOT of money! I had a cousin that was a high placed administrator in a hospital chain. GRANTED, he was a skilled heart surgeon, etc.... but he worked as a kind of "paper pusher". At the time, he was paid over $800K USD/YEAR! I have heard the average doctors wage is about $250K. Some make FAR less, but some make far more. But STILL, people say healthcare should be a "right" and FREE! HECK, people may pay HUNDREDS to have their HAIR DONE!

Ed begley, leonardo dicaprio, etc... Are VERY lucky! They are in a VERY special kind of work. Because of ties, relationships, past work, fans, people hire them. They can command high income NOT only because of those things, but ALSO because, once placed at a certain part in the film, their existence becomes CENTRAL and OBVIOUS! You can't normally just switch an actor or actress out of a key part. When it happens, they have to shoot around, compromise, re purpose, re-write, use trick photography, etc.... Sometimes, the project just gets CANCELLED! HMMMM....... "ties, relationships, past work, fans"?!?!?!?!?!? Sounds FAMILIAR! You know what? FEMINISTS often call that relationship "THE OLD BOYS CLUB"! GRANTED, WOMEN benefit as well, but it is the SAME concept! So WHAT women have benefited? Well, ONE was just a weather girl. A guy thought she had a good attitude for a potential format and tried her out. All I have to say is her name was OPRAH, and you get the rest of the story. What about penny marshall? Many say she wouldn't have gone anywhere without her brother Garry. Those jobs could have gone to someone else.

SOME feminists are even pushing the idea of SEXISM in politics. You want to know WHY there are so few female senators and congress people? FEWER RUN in the major parties! SURE there are a LOT of parties, but there are only 2 that get many elected. And fewer women run. The same is true in computers. At least out of the thousands I have known, most are male. FEW that I have had to interview have been females. I believe it is 3 or 4. That is out of a couple thousand. I DID accept at least 2 females. I didn't hold citizenship(One was american, and one was indian), citizenship(USA, INDIA), or sex against ANYONE! I simply accepted as many as I could that I felt were good enough. I don't know how long they worked, but I know their first jobs, after I accepted them, were at least 5 years long, and the customers were happy. I even ended up working beside them for a while.

Steve

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ForumGuru

Banned 9 years ago

I think a $15 an hour minimum wage across the board for fast food workers is too high, especially in the lower cost of living markets. I have done both, I worked fast food when I was 15 years old, and I joined the military several years later.

While an E1 was mentioned in the Bolling report, and generally I think the military is underpaid, allow me to briefly describe what I was being paid.

I joined the Navy as a ET Nuke and was immediately advanced to E3 upon completion of boot-camp, and immediately advanced to E4 after completion of A school.

I was married with a young son and by the time I arrived at C school I was getting a free 2 or 3 bedroom townhouse on base (Vellejo/Mare Island), free utilities, additional money for food, free health and dental care for my family etc.

Single military members living on base/post get base pay, plus they get free meals, free living quarters, free health and dental care, discounts on food and merchandise and additional after service benefits. Depending on your duties and/or station you may receive other additional pay.

The Military Times has a caculator (not sure how accurate it is) that adds BAS and BAH to your base pay.

E1 with 1 Year of Service (Great Lakes) with a dependent.

$1531.50 (BASIC)
$357.55 (BAS)
$1146 (BAH)
Total Monthly = $3035.05

Free health and dental care for the family and after service benefits as well.

Those are the rates for Great Lakes (that's where I brought my family immediately after boot camp) where we lived off-base in North Chicago and Waukegan. I received BAS, BAH and Base Pay which covered my off-base living expenses.

Once I graduated C and Crypto school I was stationed in San Diego... I punched in the numbers for San Diego as an E4 with 2 years of service and here is what it came up with.

$1999.50 (BASIC)
$357.55 (BAS)
$1971 (BAH)
Total Monthly = $4328.05 ($51,936 Per Year)

Here is the Miltary Times Pay Calculator:

http://projects.militarytimes.com/pay-charts/

Cheers

-don

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Kay King 9 years ago

I know there are side benefits like room and board - but even so that's about $17 an hour and doesn't compare with the job requirements of MickeyD's.

I think we become so fragmented sometimes in our talking points and petitions - we lose track of bigger pictures.
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yukon

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by ForumGuru

I think a $15 an hour minimum wage across the board for fast food workers is too high, especially in the lower cost of living markets.

What you left out is fast food type jobs are usually part time employees, so figure that $15 x 20 hours on a good week with erratic schedules (ex: working lunch rush then sent home). It's not like those employees are buying new houses or cars with their new found fortune.

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Midnight Oil 9 years ago

Thing is, on the charts above, the majority (if not all) are franchisee driven. They aren't actually "the company" and a $15 minimum would quickly put many franchisees out of business (as it would many of the small, independently owned mom n' pop shops).

The actual company makes a lot of their money selling franchises and from franchise fees, usually around 5% or so of sales. If the company could loosen up those franchise fees a bit, there would be more room for franchisees to pay more. I doubt that will happen anytime soon though, and many fast food franchisors are working towards selling off their company stores to new and existing franchisees (less headaches, more money).

Some will think, "Meh, so what? Restaurants that can't afford it should go out of business." But that's a loss of more jobs. What's the solution to that?

What we will see as a result of this push is higher prices and fewer people doing the actual work. Fewer jobs and taxpayers paying even more.

The biggest thing we'll see, however, is a stronger focus on automation. It's already happening. Doubtful we'll ever see a successful chain of primarily automated restaurants, but we will see a reduction in workforce due to increased automation. It's just a matter of time. Again, fewer jobs and taxpayers paying even more.

On a side note, I'd really like to know what the growing list of restaurant-owning celebrity activists are paying their staffs.
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ForumGuru

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

What you left out is fast food type jobs are usually part time employees, so figure that $15 x 20 hours on a good week with erratic schedules (ex: working lunch rush then sent home). It's not like those employees are buying new houses or cars with their new found fortune.

I believe you may have left out a few key points, friend. My wife was a GM for DQ for 17 years and she was responsible for opening and running one of the first DQ Grill and Chill locations in the nation.

The majority of her employees were kids that were looking for an entry level part-time job to fit around high school classes, college classes, sports, and other activities. These kids were not looking to buy houses and brand new cars at 16-19 years old working a 20-40 hour per week entry level position. What they were looking for was a boss that treated them right and gave them a good reference when they moved on to better paying jobs, and jobs in their chosen fields of study or career paths.

Most of her employees were great kids, and some of those kids took a little less pay to work for a boss that respected them and their needs. Flexible hours, good human relations, certain days off, etc. etc.

We would hold cookouts and Rock Band parties at our house for the staff and most would attend and have a blast. I think most believed that they were paid fairly and were treated right for the skills that they possessed, and the jobs that they were expected to do.

In some markets I can see a higher minimum wage may need to be set, but a nationwide $15 blanket minimum wage is not going to be it. The prices at DQ are already quite high, and I know many DQ owners that are struggling to make ends meet, or have sold out and/or closed.

In-fact my wife and I looked at purchasing a DQ in small town USA just a couple of years ago, and to be quite honest, the profit margins were very minimal, or worse. In-fact my wife would have taken a serious pay cut as the owner of the DQ that we were looking at, and she would have had to basically double the revenue and keep it at those levels for 15 years to get any sort of substantial return on the investment...and that was on an inside track bargain basement DQ selling price and 60-80 hour GM workweek. We studied the numbers, notebooks full of numbers, and the profits for many of these fast food locations are not that great at all.

People need to stop looking at fast food as career choices...they are what they are for most people...entry level positions where not a lot of skill is required. Sure a few people want to get into food service management (or are great employees) and those people are easily spotted within the industry and usually they move up quickly.

Most kids need a place to start professional employment and fast food is one of those places.

Cheers

-don

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Floyd Fisher

9 years ago

Originally Posted by ForumGuru

I think a $15 an hour minimum wage across the board for fast food workers is too high, especially in the lower cost of living markets. I have done both, I worked fast food when I was 15 years old, and I joined the military several years later.

While an E1 was mentioned in the Bolling report, and generally I think the military is underpaid, allow me to briefly describe what I was being paid.

I joined the Navy as a ET Nuke and was immediately advanced to E3 upon completion of boot-camp, and immediately advanced to E4 after completion of A school.

I was married with a young son and by the time I arrived at C school I was getting a free 2 or 3 bedroom townhouse on base (Vellejo/Mare Island), free utilities, additional money for food, free health and dental care for my family etc.

Single military members living on base/post get base pay, plus they get free meals, free living quarters, free health and dental care, discounts on food and merchandise and additional after service benefits. Depending on your duties and/or station you may receive other additional pay.

The Military Times has a caculator (not sure how accurate it is) that adds BAS and BAH to your base pay.

E1 with 1 Year of Service (Great Lakes) with a dependent.

$1531.50 (BASIC)
$357.55 (BAS)
$1146 (BAH)
Total Monthly = $3035.05

Free health and dental care for the family and after service benefits as well.

Those are the rates for Great Lakes (that's where I brought my family immediately after boot camp) where we lived off-base in North Chicago and Waukegan. I received BAS, BAH and Base Pay which covered my off-base living expenses.

Once I graduated C and Crypto school I was stationed in San Diego... I punched in the numbers for San Diego as an E4 with 2 years of service and here is what it came up with.

$1999.50 (BASIC)
$357.55 (BAS)
$1971 (BAH)
Total Monthly = $4328.05 ($51,936 Per Year)

Here is the Miltary Times Pay Calculator:

Pay Charts

Cheers

-don

Sounds like a lot of money, except there are some things you failed to tell them.

1. Basic Allowance for Housing varies by pay grade and location....and also, it covers basic housing, and not much more than that.

2. Until you reach the higher ranks like E-6 and above, BAS is not enough to feed a family on...you would be surprised the percentage of military that is currently on food stamps and WIC.

You can tell I'm retired military.

-Floyd E Fisher III, PO1 (Ret), USN

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ForumGuru

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Floyd Fisher

Sounds like a lot of money, except there are some things you failed to tell them.

1. Basic Allowance for Housing varies by pay grade and location....and also, it covers basic housing, and not much more than that.

2. Until you reach the higher ranks like E-6 and above, BAS is not enough to feed a family on...you would be surprised the percentage of military that is currently on food stamps and WIC.

You can tell I'm retired military.

-Floyd E Fisher III, PO1 (Ret), USN

Hi Floyd,

#1 I believe I told exactly what was needed to be told, in-fact I posted a link to the interactive calculator so everyone could enter pay grade, years of service, location and dependent status to see for themselves what the pay would be.

I also used an E1 w/1 year of service in Great Lakes which was $1531.50 (BASIC) $357.55 (BAS) $1146 (BAH) Total Monthly = $3035.05 for the the first calculation.

I know I can find a decent 1 or 2 bedroom place in that area for $1146... I lived there 2+ years and I lived in Rockford another 18+ years so I did visit the Chicagoland area a time or two.

On BAH & BAS + Basic Pay I was able to afford a decent condo for me and my wife and son in both Orlando and San Diego, and apartments in North Chicago and Waukegan.

#2 I managed to feed my family as an E4 with less than 3 years service on BAS, BAH and Basic Pay and never applied for any additional assistance. I am not surprised by much these days, so the number of military folk on food stamps will not surprise me. I have no doubt that if you are low pay grade military person, with little service time in and have 3, 4 or 5 kids, you probably are not making enough cash on a single military salary. That's a no-brainer for most folks.

If that's the case maybe a little family and/or career planning should have been in order. In-fact if you have a batch of kids and a wife (or husband) the military is quite possibly the wrong career choice, period.

FWIW, according to the calculator, only BAH and Basic Pay rise with increases in pay grade and time in service, not BAS. And let us not forget that BAH and BAS are not taxed.

Here is that calculator again so everyone can feel free to see what the BAH amount is for the area nearest to them.

Pay Charts

I did my time in the mid-80's as an ET and manged to to get places in decent to upscale neighborhoods for the three of us. Other people's mileage may very, but the numbers are there for everyone to see.

All of that said, rumors are circulating that say BAS and BAH may be eliminated completely in the future to be replaced by a single "locality allowance".

Cheers

-don

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sbucciarel

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

I just watched "cashin' in" with Eric Boling - I know it's on FOX but it's always a good show.

Two things today that were excellent:

1. A reporter talking to di caprio and others who are protesting against climate change....and showing the yacht ($750 million) where di caprio spent his summer cruising (how much fuel did that use?) and the high-carbon-footprint mansions where several of the protestors live.

Then she showed the tables (and the ground) where the styrofoam latte cups and paper plates and napkins had been discarded by the "climate protestors" - along with the plastic lids and straws and...

2. THIS IS A BIGGIE to me at least. The $15 minimum wage fast food workers are demanding is double the wage paid an E1 in the military.

In fact, to get above $15/hr in the military you must be a staff sergeant with 4 yrs minimum experience.

Less than $9/hr for the opportunity to get shot at or work in 100+ degree temps in full military gear....or potential $15 to add special sauce. Hmmmm...

I agree with the hypocrisy of the protestors who spend their time on yachts and in mansions, etc. but as far as military pay goes, #1 they are underpaid and #2, you have to factor in free housing, medical care and other benefits and commissaries where they purchase their household goods at substantial savings.

The fast food companies are making billions of dollars in profits and many of their employees are forced to rely on public assistance for the basic necessities, such as food and medical care. The tax payers are the ones footing the bill for the fast food industries low wages. In addition to the low wages, they cut all the hours so that they do not have to provide benefits.

There's no doubt whatsoever that the fast food companies could afford better wages for their employees. What I would actually prefer to see is that people did not have to rely on fast food joints for an income at all, and let the upper management stand in the front lines feeding people lousy, unhealthy food.

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ThomM

9 years ago

The fast food companies are making billions of dollars in profits and many of their employees are forced to rely on public assistance for the basic necessities, such as food and medical care. The tax payers are the ones footing the bill for the fast food industries low wages. In addition to the low wages, they cut all the hours so that they do not have to provide benefits.

It's really the economy (or lack there of) that allows them to do that.
I see it here (where I live) all the time.
In one area near me (Balston Spa) a new chip fab. plant was built, creating around a 1,000 jobs. This brought other service businesses into the area creating more jobs. Now in that area McDonalds, Walmart, etc. have to compete with those businesses for employees. So they start their employees at a higher wage then a Walmart or McD's does in another area near here (Troy) where business growth has stagnated. Same is true in East Greenbush where G.E., FedX and a couple other corporations have expanded their operations.
A friend of mine has worked at McD's or Dunkin Donut her whole life. In the area she lives they pay crap. So she drives about 30 miles to work where the economy is better. I haven't talked to her about her work in a long time, but I know 10 years ago she was making 35,000+ a year as an assistant manager for McD's.

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Kay King

9 years ago

I've never understood the profit argument - but maybe that's my failing.

I do know that on lists like the one below....there are no fast food franchises listed. There are some high profit companies though.

Bailout List: Banks, Auto Companies, and More | Eye on the Bailout | ProPublica

If these franchises don't make enough profit to suit the owners or the stockholders...they'll be out of business. Alternatively, they will be sold off and employees fired in a restructuring of the business to return profitability.

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sbucciarel

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

I've never understood the profit argument - but maybe that's my failing.

Employees are a "cost of doing business," but these companies like WalMart, McD's, Burger King place a part of their cost of doing "their" business on the taxpayers.

While $35K might seem to be a significant wage in some areas, I lived and worked in Fairfax County for the majority of my working for someone else years, one of the richest counties in the US. The average wage there was $50K, and that was fine if you were married and there were two incomes, but far below what it takes to actually pay rent, and buy food and necessities in Fairfax County. Add in the cost of medical care, with no medical benefits, and it's far from adequate.

... and sadly, with the divorce rate up there, many of the employees at these low wage, no benefit places are single mothers with the additional cost of caring for their children added in.

According to one study, American fast food workers receive more than $7 billion dollars in public assistance. As it turns out, McDonalds has a "McResource" line that helps employees and their families enroll in various state and local assistance programs. It exploded into the public when a recording of the McResource line advocated that full-time employees sign up for food stamps and welfare.

Wal-Mart, the nation's largest private sector employer, is also the biggest consumer of taxpayer supported aid. According to Florida Congressman Alan Grayson, in many states, Wal-Mart employees are the largest group of Medicaid recipients. They are also the single biggest group of food stamp recipients. Wal-mart's "associates" are paid so little, according to Grayson, that they receive $1,000 on average in public assistance. These amount to massive taxpayer subsidies for private companies.
Apologies, But Welfare Payments To Employees Are Not Subsidies To WalMart And McDonalds - Forbes

Fact: Walmart is a job killer.

Walmart store openings destroy almost three local jobs for every two they create by reducing retail employment by an average of 2.7 percent in every county they enter.

Walmart cost America an estimated 196,000 jobs - mainly manufacturing jobs - between 2001 and 2006 as a result of the company's imports from China.

Fact: Walmart jobs are poverty jobs.

Walmart workers average just $8.81 hour. This translates to annual pay of $15,576, based on Walmart's definition of full-time. This is less than two-thirds of the poverty line for a family of four, and well below what most families actually need to get by.

According to the company, most workers make less than $25,000 a year. In a September 2013 presentation, Walmart US CEO Bill Simon included the fact that out of all Walmart associates in the country, only 475,000 make more than $25,000 a year.

Walmart pays less than other retail firms. A 2005 study found that Walmart workers earn an estimated 12.4% less than retail workers as a whole and 14.5% less than workers in large retail in general. A 2007 study which compared Walmart to other general merchandising employers found a wage gap of 17.4%.

Last year, Walmart slashed already meager health benefits again, dropping health insurance for new hires working less than 30 hours a week and leaving more workers uninsured.

Fact: Taxpayers are paying the price for Walmart.

Taxpayers subsidize Walmart's low wages and poor benefits. Just one Walmart store costs taxpayers an estimated $1 million in public assistance usage by employees, according to a new report from the Democratic staff of the U.S. House Committee on Education and the Workforce.

In many of the states across the country that release such information, Walmart is the employer with the largest number of employees and dependents using taxpayer-funded health insurance programs. A few examples:

In Arizona, according to data released by the state in 2005, the company had more 2,700 employees on the state-funded plan.
The company also topped the list in their home state of Arkansas, with nearly 4,000 employees forced onto the state's plan according to data released by the state in 2005.
In Massachusetts, in 2009, taxpayers paid $8.8 million for Walmart associates to use publicly subsidized healthcare services.

Despite all the damage they have done to US workers and communities, a 2007 study found that, as of that date, Walmart had received more than $1.2 billion in tax breaks, free land, infrastructure assistance, low-cost financing and outright grants from state and local governments around the country. This number has surely increased as Walmart continues to receive additional subsidies.

Meanwhile, the Waltons use special tax loopholes to avoid paying billions in taxes. According to a recent Bloomberg story, the Waltons are America's biggest users of a particular type of charitable trust that actually allows the donor to pass money on to heirs after an extended period of time, without having to pay much-debated estate and inheritance taxes. According to Treasury Department estimates reported in Bloomberg, closing the two types of loopholes the Waltons appear to use would raise more than $20 billion over the next decade.
Top Reasons the Walton Family and Walmart are NOT

How McDonald's and Wal-Mart Became Welfare Queens - Bloomberg

McDonald's Minimum Wage Budget Ignores Tax Credits, Food Stamps And Reality - Forbes

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Sarevok

9 years ago

So the argument against people getting a fair wage, is how other people are working harder and making even less?

Is there a better way to look at this?

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Kay King

9 years ago

No, that's not the argument. Wages are not based on what you "need" but on what your skills are worth in the marketplace. The workers often say they need to earn enough to support a family - but not every menial job is going to pay enough to support multiple people. Fast food may also be a declining industry due to public preference and to regulation.

Chipotle and similar healthier outlets are eating fast food's lunch - so to speak - in some areas of the country. Often these newer franchises pay their employees better - but also require a higher work standard of those employees.

McDonald's August Sales Worst Decline In 10 Years - Business Insider

Which reminds me (joy joy) once I get moved this winter, I'll be 10 minutes from a Chipotle.....wheeeeee.

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yukon

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Fast food may also be a declining industry due to public preference and to regulation.

Subway restaurants is testing a drive thru touch screen ordering system that basically eliminates a cashier. The touch screen menu board even remembers what you order via a customer cell phone number to speed up repeat customer orders.

Notice the credit card swipe on the right side of the menu board (no cashier/employee).

First Subway Drive-Thru Kiosk in South Carolina -...

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BigFrank

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

Subway restaurants is testing a new drive thru touch screen ordering system that basically eliminates a cashier.

If you are going to serve 'food' that is basically unfit for human consumption, you might as well eliminate any and all humans in the process.

We already know who believes that this trend to eliminate any job possible, to increase profits, is a very good thing. That would be those individuals that scream the loudest about the 'takers' that might need help putting food on the table for themselves and their children - after their minimum wage job is eliminated.

Shameless!

Cheers. - Frank

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yukon

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by BigFrank

If you are going to serve 'food' that is basically unfit for human consumption, you might as well eliminate any and all humans in the process.

Trust me on this, grocery stores sell some of the nastiest stuff.

I was a welder years ago & did a maintenance call for a major food manufacture (maggots). I skipped lunch that day.

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BigFrank

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

I was a welder years ago & did a maintenance call for a major food manufacture (maggots). I skipped lunch that day.

Actually, you should have opted for the maggots. It was your best shot at actually acquiring any high-quality protein.

Cheers. - Frank

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HeySal

9 years ago

Originally Posted by BigFrank

Actually, you should have opted for the maggots. It was your best shot at actually acquiring any high-quality protein.

Cheers. - Frank

It's really sick that this is a true statement.

Outside of so many jobs lost, it wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit to see fast-food stores just going out of existence. We're innovative people in this country. It seems like we could find SOME form of industry that could take it's place and not be so disastrous to the public health.

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BigFrank

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

It's really sick that this is a true statement.

Outside of so many jobs lost, it wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit to see fast-food stores just going out of existence. We're innovative people in this country. It seems like we could find SOME form of industry that could take it's place and not be so disastrous to the public health.

What - and have people screaming about the loss of their 'freedom?'

Next you'll want to keep them from having that 55 gallon drum of sugar-water they insist on swilling to wash it down. lol

Cheers. - Frank

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ThomM 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Sarevok

So the argument against people getting a fair wage, is how other people are working harder and making even less?

Is there a better way to look at this?

Yeah, but I thought I explained it already.
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Claude Whitacre

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Sarevok

So the argument against people getting a fair wage, is how other people are working harder and making even less?

Is there a better way to look at this?

Yeah, that's a bad argument. I was all for the $15 minimum wage. I really was. Then someone said to me. "Why should employers pay $15 an hour for a $8 an hour job?"

And it struck a nerve. Some jobs just aren't worth paying $15 an hour. Are the employees willing to work twice as hard for twice as much money? Are they willing to be twice as efficient?

Unskilled commodity labor is one of those jobs. And it's not like the employees were tricked into working there. They knew how much it paid before they applied.

I'm an employer. I pay far more that $15 an hour to each of my employees. But I pay what the service they provide is worth to me. Not more. Not less. Do you know when I gave raises? When they got better at their job.

The employer does not work for the employee. And if the job is worth $8 an hour, demanding $15 an hour...for that same job, is silly. Want $19 an hour? Do a job worth $19 an hour.

If you want to work for me, the worst reason you can give for a salary increase request is "I need it". Because my first question is going to be "How are you making your job worth more to me?"

And I read the posts (which is just a microcosm of the world), and one side thinks $15 as a minimum is just dandy. But that isn't the side that's actually paying the $15 an hour.

This is just my opinion.

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sbucciarel

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Unskilled commodity labor is one of those jobs. And it's not like the employees were tricked into working there. They knew how much it paid before they applied.
....

The employer does not work for the employee. And if the job is worth $8 an hour, demanding $15 an hour...for that same job, is silly. Want $19 an hour? Do a job worth $19 an hour.

You apparently have never worked in the food industry. Everyone is dissing those employees as if they are not worth the money they are getting. That "burger flipper" is far more than a burger flipper and the cashier, taking orders is only one of her many duties.

Fact is, fast food employees are responsible for the cleaning of a restaurant and far more of their time goes into restaurant sanitation than does flipping burgers or taking orders. It is as essential function of the restaurant. One failed inspection will close the business down until they are in compliance, losing thousands and thousands in sales.

If a restaurant closes at 11pm, it is not uncommon for the cooks and a front person to cleaning until 2 am in preparation for the next shift. As a restaurant manager for years, I valued every single one of my employees. Any company that doesn't should just die. They are the heart of your business.

As for getting $15/hr., that ain't going to happen, but it's clear that $7.25/hr too low and prior to the last minimum wage hike, it had not been raised for over 10 years. So, you're calling yourself a business but like McDonalds and Walmart, you advise your employees to get on the welfare wagon to supplement wages that will not sustain a family, and place the burden of running your company on the tax payer, I have no problem with seeing that company die, irregardless of how many shitty jobs are lost.

I've worked for a couple of companys that were just like what Sal described. Not many and not for long. I usually left their premises for good with my middle finger straight in the air as my farewell wave goodbye. I was cheeky that way. What I demand from employers is that employees are treated as the valuable asset that they are and are treated with dignity. Any employer who doesn't believe that, should take over those duties themselves.

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BigFrank

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

What I demand from employers is that employees are treated as the valuable asset that they are and are treated with dignity. Any employer who doesn't believe that, should take over those duties themselves.

Perhaps a bit of perspective offered by the philosophy of Jack Ma, who has gone from making $20 a month to being well on his way to becoming the richest man in the universe as the CEO of Alibaba, is in order.

His credo: "Customers first, employers second and shareholders, last. If you do your best for the first two groups, the shareholders will do very, very well. If you do not share my vision, please do not invest in my company."

All this crap about 'fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders' is just another term for corporate greed. Additionally, you don't need to be running a giant corporation to have the mindset and lack of humanity that are the hallmarks of the corporate leaders in America.

While there was a time that these were considered part-time, entry-level jobs, it is now a fact that many of these jobs are held by individuals over the age of 25, many of whom are single mothers and see little opportunity to move out of these positions. Hey, but don't let the facts get in the way of your lack of concern for those doing worse than you. You've got yours, right? So screw them. If they would just get off their lazy asses and find a better job, all would be right with their world. If they would lift themselves up by their bootstraps, they wouldn’t have a damn thing to complain about.

I will never cease to be amazed at the lack of humanity displayed by most humans. Never.

Cheers. - Frank

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sbucciarel

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by BigFrank

All this crap about 'fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders' is just another term for corporate greed. Additionally, you don't need to be running a giant corporation to have the mindset and lack of humanity that are the hallmarks of the corporate leaders in America.

While there was a time that these were considered part-time, entry-level jobs, it is now a fact that many of these jobs are held by individuals over the age of 25, many of whom are single mothers and see little opportunity to move out of these positions. Hey, but don't let the facts get in the way of your lack of concern for those doing worse than you. You've got yours, right? So screw them. If they would just get off their lazy asses and find a better job, all would be right with their world. If they would lift themselves up by their bootstraps, they wouldn't have a damn thing to complain about.

I will never cease to be amazed at the lack of humanity displayed by most humans. Never.

Cheers. - Frank

Exactly Frank. When I managed Pizza Hut and Arthur Treachers I valued my customers first and my employees second. Pizza Hut was owned by Pepsico, so they had as little humanity and conscience as any other corporation driven by greed and little else in this country. I fought for my employees to the point where I was allowed a core group of employees that were full time, instead of the usual ... you get part time that you can't live off of and no benefits crap that is predominant in these kinds of jobs. They had benefits and they worked full weeks. They valued their jobs and they worked their asses off to keep them and they were very grateful to me for going to bat for them. I was humbled by their loyalty. They were the reason my restaurant was a success. They were the reason that you could eat in my restaurant without getting sick or vomiting from seeing filth.

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seasoned

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

I just watched "cashin' in" with Eric Boling - I know it's on FOX but it's always a good show.

Two things today that were excellent:

1. A reporter talking to di caprio and others who are protesting against climate change....and showing the yacht ($750 million) where di caprio spent his summer cruising (how much fuel did that use?) and the high-carbon-footprint mansions where several of the protestors live.

Then she showed the tables (and the ground) where the styrofoam latte cups and paper plates and napkins had been discarded by the "climate protestors" - along with the plastic lids and straws and...

2. THIS IS A BIGGIE to me at least. The $15 minimum wage fast food workers are demanding is double the wage paid an E1 in the military.

In fact, to get above $15/hr in the military you must be a staff sergeant with 4 yrs minimum experience.

Less than $9/hr for the opportunity to get shot at or work in 100+ degree temps in full military gear....or potential $15 to add special sauce. Hmmmm...

1. Yeah, these people do NOT care about the environment! MY carbon footprint is smaller than nearly all of them, and I could cut back.

2. That isn't true at all! It is FAR FAR FAR higher than the people in the military! SOME may claim those in the military get special perks for college, housing, etc... but that is outweighed but other free sources the minimum wagers can get. Those in the military graduated highschool, have special training, have grueling basic training, strict requirements, long days and an unstable/dangerous environment, and are FULL TIME!

HECK, they will likely BOTH end up with similar care, etc...

As for that $750 million dollar yacht? IMAGINE! He could have setup a nice online school, AND given a LOT of people jobs and/or specialized training/job placement. And there is a LOT of waste every day due to bad job placement, etc... I used to joke of how my mother NEVER wanted to work near where she lived, or live far from where she worked. We were always moving. I interviewed for one job that was near where I lived, and the guy that interviewed me lived near where I worked. If we could have merely switched jobs, it would have saved approximately 132man miles per work day! That is ~34452 man miles per work YEAR! It would have saved us each over $3000/year at these prices! Over 1000 gallons of fuel!!!!! And that is by switching just TWO jobs!

But NO, he liked the idea of having an expensive yacht, etc.... Oh well, most of those people don't want to work ANYWAY! It is said that TODAY, MORE people use welfare stamps than postage stamps! IMAGINE! It used to be that EVERYONE used postage stamps!

Steve

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ForumGuru

Banned 9 years ago

@ Seasoned

The last time I checked the Army allows 10% Tier II (GED, no HS diploma), the Marines allow 5% Tier II, and the AF allows 1 % Tier II entry each year.

Free housing, free meals, free medical, free dental, discounted prices on food and merch etc. and VA benefits for military veterans are not just claimed, they are real.

While the services must be respected, some of the dumbest people I have ever met were in the service. I mean real rocks (isn't that where the phrase was coined?

). Not all military personnel are highly trained or highly educated.

That said, I knew some brilliant and great people in the service.

You can't place an hourly wage figure on most military personnel, as most of the days I worked were between 8 and 12 hours or longer and I had a 24 hour duty day every 4th day while stationed at most shore commands.

When I was at sea we had no real days off for 180 straight days except for a day or two when we ported once a month or so in some foreign country, and most nights I would get 4 hours of sleep (if I was lucky) after working a full day and standing a watch shift. Sub dudes have it even worse...sometimes they rarely surface and don't see a port for months on end.

Bottom line is I saw dudes in the military that could not hold down a job in the civilian world even if they wanted to. They needed the structure, the military discipline, and someone telling them what to do 24/7 to function properly. In-fact many of the lower positions in the military are filled with people that would/could/did have a hard time in the civilian world. Without a free place to live and the free meals they may not have a place to live or anything to eat.

There are such places as easy duty...of-course combat and long tours at sea are not classified as easy duty.

I am not speaking on this subject from reading a book or a webpage --> I have actually been there and done that, serving at commands in Orlando, Florida, Great Lakes, Illinois, Mare Island, California, San Diego, California and after seeing the world (the Pacific, the Indian, the Coral, the Arabian and others as well as 11 or 12 countries) while I was deployed aboard a USN Guided Missile Cruiser.

Cheers

-don

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seasoned

9 years ago

Originally Posted by ForumGuru

@ Seasoned

The last time I checked the Army allows 10% Tier II (GED, no HS diploma), the Marines allow 5% Tier II, and the AF allows 1 % Tier II entry each year.

OK, GED! Although often not considered the same, officially they are supposed to be.

Free housing, free meals, free medical, free dental, discounted prices on food and merch etc. and VA benefits for military members are not just claimed, they are real.

Poor choice of words. I didn't mean they weren't real.

While the services must be respected, some of the dumbest people I have ever met were in the service. I mean real rocks (isn't that where the phrase was coined?

). Not all military personnel are highly trained or highly educated.

High school is SUPPOSED to get you to all the BASICS! TODAY, it doesn't even do THAT! I didn't mean HIGHLY educated. And even some with DOCTORATES are IDIOTS!

That said, I knew some brilliant and great people in the service.

You can't place an hourly wage figure on most military personnel, as most of the days I worked were between 8 and 12 hours or longer and I had a 24 hour duty day every 4th day while stationed at most shore commands.

When I was at sea we had no real days off for 180 straight days except for a day or two when we ported once a month or so in some foreign country, and most nights I would get 4 hours of sleep (if I was lucky) after working a full day and standing a watch shift. Sub dudes have it even worse...sometimes they rarely surface and don't see a port for months on end.

PART OF MY POINT! I did say unstable environment, etc... I have spent the last decade all over the US, but at least it was the US. With the military, they could go from peace in long beach, CA, USA to WAR in AFGANISTAN!

Bottom line is I saw dudes in the military that could not hold down a job in the civilian world even if they wanted to. They needed the structure, the military discipline, and someone telling them what to do 24/7 to function properly. In-fact many of the lower positions of the military are filled with people that would/could/did have a hard time in the civilian world. Without a free place to live and the free meals they would have no place to live or anything to eat.

YEP, but I wasn't talking about what COULD be done, but rather what WAS done.

There are such places as easy duty...of-course combat and long tours at sea are not classified as easy duty.

I am not speaking what I know from from reading this in a book or on the web, I have actually been there and done that, serving at commands in Orlando, Florida, Great Lakes, Illinois, Mare Island, California, San Diego, California and after seeing the world (the Pacific, the Indian, the Coral, the Arabian and others as well as 11 or 12 countries) while I was deployed aboard a USN Guided Missile Cruiser.

Cheers

-don

YEP, but you can't necessarily COUNT on it. To a degree, you sign part of your life away. I said nothing against the military, or you. I hope you realize that.

Steve

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travlinguy

9 years ago

Fairness is subjective. Business is business. People are most often paid according to what they bring to the table. Fast food workers don't bring much. Whether it's a bloated conglomerate or a mom and pop mini mart, unskilled counter help is paid on the low end of the scale.

The training to flip burgers and serve them might take a couple of days, if that. These people want $15 an hour? There are some states where $15 an hour is the starting wage for teachers. How long do teachers train? They need at least a bachelor's degree. Anyone who wants more still has every opportunity in this country to improve him/herself and go as far as their ambition will take them.

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Dennis Gaskill

9 years ago

With all the jobs lost to automation, technology, low cost imports, companies moving factories where the labor costs are lower, and other causes over the last few decades, there aren't nearly as many good jobs available.

Many of the jobs added back in that time are the so-called entry level jobs. It's easy to say entry level jobs weren't meant to provide a living wage, but responsible, hard working adults are being forced into entry level jobs because there isn't anything else available.

Houston, we have a problem.

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seasoned

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill

With all the jobs lost to automation, technology, low cost imports, companies moving factories where the labor costs are lower, and other causes over the last few decades, there aren't nearly as many good jobs available.

Many of the jobs added back in that time are the so-called entry level jobs. It's easy to say entry level jobs weren't meant to provide a living wage, but responsible, hard working adults are being forced into entry level jobs because there isn't anything else available.

Houston, we have a problem.

IRONICALLY part of that is due to so many wanting such high wages!

Some people just don't seem to realize this! Moving a company is EXPENSIVE! The value of a company is tied up in obligations, debts, licensing, signage, human resources, etc.... In order to move, they have to satisfy and maybe sell items in the old country, move to another country(after a LOT of research, etc....), buy new stuff, move old stuff, redo even labeling on products, bring new employees up to speed(potentially in another Language), etc.... I tried to move my limited possessions across the country! It took about a week, IIRC, and cost THOUSANDS of dollars! I had NO local obligations, licenses, HR, SIGNAGE, DEBTS. I moved to another state in the SAME country. It took me maybe 1-2 days work to straighten out my personal ID and insurance, and maybe a couple days research. Imagine if it were a huge company! Imagine if it were a different country! Imagine if I couldn't just go over land!

Prior to about 1990, it was FAR harder. TODAY, many companies have moved chunks of their businesses abroad and may have an easier time. But it was done because the local costs got SO high that they figured the expense to move was WORTH IT! Once moved abroad, it is just as hard to move back!

Steve

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ForumGuru

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill

With all the jobs lost to automation, technology, low cost imports, companies moving factories where the labor costs are lower, and other causes over the last few decades, there aren't nearly as many good jobs available.

Many of the jobs added back in that time are the so-called entry level jobs. It's easy to say entry level jobs weren't meant to provide a living wage, but responsible, hard working adults are being forced into entry level jobs because there isn't anything else available.

Houston, we have a problem.

I hear you and some cities and states certainly are much worse than others.

Iowa's unemployment rate is only 4.4% and I happen to live in a manufacturing town. As an example of what's available here I will post today's job opening listings at one of the medium sizes companies in my city. This is a well respected manufacturing company, and since they are growing, they are always looking for good employees. And no, line workers do not start at minimum wage. I doubt they pay entry level line workers a fortune, but I can bet it's at least a few bucks over minimum wage. I know they offer affordable health care, but I think the standard retirement plan is a 401K or Roth type "we match some contributions" program.

Let's face it, the economy ain't that great, and policy decisions over the years have adversely affected manufacturing and other sectors. Of course policy is not the only thing that has adversely affected jobs and wages and you have mentioned several of the others...

Cheers

-don

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joe golfer

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill

With all the jobs lost to automation, technology, low cost imports, companies moving factories where the labor costs are lower, and other causes over the last few decades, there aren't nearly as many good jobs available.

Many of the jobs added back in that time are the so-called entry level jobs. It's easy to say entry level jobs weren't meant to provide a living wage, but responsible, hard working adults are being forced into entry level jobs because there isn't anything else available.

Houston, we have a problem.

And the worldwide economic makeup of jobs has changed as well. You used to be able to work at a plant all your life, with decent pay. Now low skill "plant" jobs are going to robots, China and other countries.

Our greatest social problem: there are no jobs left for the dim – Telegraph Blogs

The sad thing is, there are TONS of jobs if you have an education. Companies in the US can only fill about 20 percent of the STEM jobs they have available.

Plenty of jobs, if you've got the right skills - CBS News

So where are these companies going to find the engineers and scientists they need? Right, India and Brazil.

And that's not all. While you often hear companies need skilled factory workers to operate the sophisticated manufacturing equipment found on factory floors today, it's not exactly true. If they needed more skilled workers in factories, wages would go up in those situations, but they haven't.

The Coming Shortage of Skilled Manufacturing Workers - Businessweek

But, long term all the boomers are going to retire, and we DO NOT have enough trained workers ready to take their place. American companies cut all their training, and soon we will pay the price.

It's like the water pipes bursting all over the place in Los Angeles. The pipes were laid in 1916 and never improved. So now they break down every day, and it will only get worse.

Water-Main Break Floods Hollywood's Sunset Strip - ABC News

Everyone says you need to invest for the future, but as a country we are not investing in people or infrastructure.

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ThomM 9 years ago

The sad thing is, there are TONS of jobs if you have an education. Companies in the US can only fill about 20 percent of the STEM jobs they have available.

One of (the many) reasons why I like Mike Rowe. With the focus on technology and getting a degree there are many good paying jobs that need to be filled. mikeroweWORKS
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HeySal

9 years ago

I've had two jobs I really liked that went under due to technology. These positions were closed down forever. We have to face facts.

We never were supposed to need everyone in every family working to survive. Our fabulous FED extortion program and economy stupid legislators have created an economy that to survive, we all need to work. Nobody ever thought to account for where jobs for that many people were going to come from, though. Basically - we're over the economic carrying capacity - and that's not going to change. Now we're being outsourced by foreigners in our own country.....because they'll work for less. Or so it's said. Once they are legal and have to pay for what they are getting free now..........we're in a vicious cycle of nobody with the power to clean up whats going on caring two rats about it because they're all at the top of the food chain economically. They're comfy so f*** you and your little needs for food and shelter, etc.

Here's what's going on in my local area - when people do get raises at all it's to put them just far enough over the going rate in their local economies to keep them trapped in jobs they hate. You get more money, but can't find replacement jobs because the ones you can afford to take just plain aren't there. If you are easily replaceable, it's part time, min wage, no paid time off or medical, etc. Oregon is so far overboard with it's half time, min wage job fest that one county just made it mandatory that employers give a week paid time off to their workers. It's the first sign I've seen that a little bit of protectionism is making its way back into the laws. While $15 bucks an hour for unskilled jobs might be unreasonable, it's also unreasonable to hire someone, disallow workers full time and any hope of benefits, pay them so low they are forced into welfare, and fire them if they need to take one or two days off sick..........and that's going on out here something disgraceful.

If an employer can't make a livable profit unless they abuse employees so badly that those people have to work when they're sick, even when it's really rare that they are sick..........then maybe they should be looking to open a different sort of business. Transitioning over half of the workforce over to having to have forms of welfare to survive isn't going to work for us either. I don't know the answers - but I know that's a damned fact.

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seasoned

9 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

I've had two jobs I really liked that went under due to technology. These positions were closed down forever. We have to face facts.

Yeah, if something is repetitious, or fits a pattern, it can be automated. Often that can be done with LESS expense, trouble, and time and with a higher profit. I saw that coming over 40 years ago! That is one reason why I decided to get into computers over 30 years ago. There ARE plenty of jobs that DON'T fit that mold that automation will attack, but almost all of them require some mental effort. You can bet that, eventually, even hamburger flippers and cashiers will be thrown out of mcdonalds! The WHOLE thing could be AUTOMATED *********TODAY*********!

We never were supposed to need everyone in every family working to survive. Our fabulous FED extortion program and economy stupid legislators have created an economy that to survive, we all need to work. Nobody ever thought to account for where jobs for that many people were going to come from, though. Basically - we're over the economic carrying capacity - and that's not going to change. Now we're being outsourced by foreigners in our own country.....because they'll work for less. Or so it's said. Once they are legal and have to pay for what they are getting free now..........we're in a vicious cycle of nobody with the power to clean up whats going on caring two rats about it because they're all at the top of the food chain economically. They're comfy so f*** you and your little needs for food and shelter, etc.

Here's what's going on in my local area - when people do get raises at all it's to put them just far enough over the going rate in their local economies to keep them trapped in jobs they hate. You get more money, but can't find replacement jobs because the ones you can afford to take just plain aren't there. If you are easily replaceable, it's part time, min wage, no paid time off or medical, etc. Oregon is so far overboard with it's half time, min wage job fest that one county just made it mandatory that employers give a week paid time off to their workers. It's the first sign I've seen that a little bit of protectionism is making its way back into the laws. While $15 bucks an hour for unskilled jobs might be unreasonable, it's also unreasonable to hire someone, disallow workers full time and any hope of benefits, pay them so low they are forced into welfare, and fire them if they need to take one or two days off sick..........and that's going on out here something disgraceful.

If an employer can't make a livable profit unless they abuse employees so badly that those people have to work when they're sick, even when it's really rare that they are sick..........then maybe they should be looking to open a different sort of business. Transitioning over half of the workforce over to having to have forms of welfare to survive isn't going to work for us either. I don't know the answers - but I know that's a damned fact.

I'm surprised YOU say this. $15 IS unreasonable! Everyone ELSE will need raises to keep the economy going. That IS INFLATION, ******BY ITS VERY NATURE******* and will put the minimum wagers right back where they are! OH, they can ask for it to be $30. Can YOU say Weimar republic?

Hyperinflation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It was NEVER meant to provide a livable wage. As I said, when costs get high enough, companies will move.

Let me put it ANOTHER WAY! If costs get high enough, COMPANIES WILL AUTOMATE!!!!!!!! Anyone that doesn't know it is around the corner is a WELL....

In the 1950s-1970s, and perhaps earlier, they actually had some places that did like 70%+ of what I am talking about! IMAGINE! They had NO computers!!!!!!!! For various reasons, they got rid of them. MAYBE because people liked more personal service, that they DON'T really get now. MAYBE it was because of THEFT, which can now be prevented. Who knows? But they could bring them back. They could even have drive thrus.

Steve

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Kay King

9 years ago

We never were supposed to need everyone in every family working to survive. Our fabulous FED extortion program and economy stupid legislators have created an economy that to survive, we all need to work.

I don't believe that.

IN generations past every member of the family contributed to the family's survival. No - they didn't all work "jobs" - but the women contributed by gardening, "putting up" food to last all year, making the clothes the family wore and many other tasks. Children often worked from a young age doing chores that considerably harder and more important than "cleaning your room".

We have arrived at a time when we feel we should only do work we enjoy for a wage we are content with (are we ever content?) - and we feel we deserve the smart phone and isp and two cars and ready to eat food, etc.

Oregon is so far overboard with it's half time, min wage job

Doesn't Oregon have one of the highest minimum wages in the country? Have jobs there gone up or down since that trend began?

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HeySal

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

I don't believe that.

IN generations past every member of the family contributed to the family's survival. No - they didn't all work "jobs" - but the women contributed by gardening, "putting up" food to last all year, making the clothes the family wore and many other tasks. Children often worked from a young age doing chores that considerably harder and more important than "cleaning your room".

We have arrived at a time when we feel we should only do work we enjoy for a wage we are content with (are we ever content?) - and we feel we deserve the smart phone and isp and two cars and ready to eat food, etc.

Doesn't Oregon have one of the highest minimum wages in the country? Have jobs there gone up or down since that trend began?

Yes, I realize that everyone has to do SOMETHING - I meant the job market itself. Division of labor has been completely killed by the inflationary mode of fiat currency we use. And if you're single - it's ALL on you and that means twice the work, keeping a home, raising kids for most, and one or more jobs in the market depending on your earning capabilities - which are being repressed pretty badly these days when you consider the inflationary currency. I know plenty of women who would be glad to live as my mom and her mom - at home with the kids, tending a garden, canning foods for winter, planning the budget and social events (my dad had a job that required much socializing), etc and so forth. My mom worked hard - but not in the job market. Today, you just can't do that. Today, she'd me one more body needing employment in a market that is over carrying capacity.

As far as min wage in OR - not sure if it's national high or not..........but if you saw what things cost out here, you'd understand why it's high. I've never been anywhere that is so spendy. Not liking that part of it either. Housing is so unaffordable here and jobs pay so low -- and there are so few that people are fleeing the area. Those moving in are mostly high level corporates (which they hire from elsewhere instead of from the local pool), or college students. The whole job market is catering to college students who only want part time and will take minimum wage. They rent homes at the tune of 5 and 6 to one home so they can afford to live here. This place has more rooms for rent than regular rentals because nobody will pay what is almost double the average going rate for home/apartment rentals. (65 cents per square foot - while here it's around $1.10 per square foot) when almost all jobs are now half time and minimum wage. The housing market is flooded here with for sale - but the prices are completely stupid, so they sit.

I love Oregon for a lot of reasons - but this area is about to lose me. I'm tired of paying almost double for everything that I can get it for elsewhere - while working at a job I hate but can't replace because I can't find anything that will pay this much. Nothing. Two years here and haven't seen ONE job open in several fields that I have experience in.....but have seen a few being filled with out of the area people when nobody here knew they were hiring. It's a mom and pop area that's being rapidly transitioned to corporate.

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Dennis Gaskill 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Doesn't Oregon have one of the highest minimum wages in the country?

Originally Posted by HeySal

As far as min wage in OR - not sure if it's national high or not..........but if you saw what things cost out here, you'd understand why it's high.

Second highest in the nation, trailing only Washington.

Minimum wage in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Midnight Oil 9 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

If costs get high enough, COMPANIES WILL AUTOMATE!!!!!!!! Anyone that doesn't know it is around the corner is

. . . on the wrong side of history.
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- seasoned 9 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Midnight Oil
  
  . . . on the wrong side of history.
  
  Yeah, if computers did a bit better, thing's would be reduced even MORE! The old patch cables are replace with large boxes switching THOUSANDS of lines! They have preprocessors to limit some time, and may have off shore call centers. So this is NOTHING like it used to be. I worked at a few phone companies, and SAW therooms that had the devices that replaced these patch boards. Clean, STERILE, and not a human to be seen!
  
  BTW LANGUAGE, ESPECIALLY NOW, is one thing computers don't do that well at.
  
  Steve
  
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joe golfer

9 years ago

I never understood why the rich would decimate the middle class. I thought the rich needed a strong middle class so they (the middle class) would buy cars, houses, furniture and every other product that in turn makes the owners rich. But now the rich are getting richer, and the middle class is holding the bag. I don't get it, but I went to public schools.

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Floyd Fisher

9 years ago

Originally Posted by joe golfer

I never understood why the rich would decimate the middle class. I thought the rich needed a strong middle class so they (the middle class) would buy cars, houses, furniture and every other product that in turn makes the owners rich. But now the rich are getting richer, and the middle class is holding the bag. I don't get it, but I went to public schools.

It's not the rich doing it, it's the middle class doing it to themselves.

If you are spending all your money on iphones, cable tv, starbucks coffee, and heaven knows what else, and don't put aside any money for yourself, who is going to have all the money? Certainly isn't you, now is it.

Fed data backs this assertion up here.

Interesting note: There are two times in the last 100 years that savings rates went negative. The first time, the Great Depression followed shortly thereafter. The second time, we entered this economic mess shortly thereafter.

Coincidence? I don't think so!

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HeySal

9 years ago

Frank - didn't mean "not allowed". I just meant "lost demand for".

BTW - Seattle, Washington just instated the $15 minimum wage. Not just for one business type but for any businesses in the area.

With so many on both sides of the fence on whether this will be a good thing or not, it seems we have a new live experiment to watch. No more guessing. Either Seattle is going to zoom on the sustainability charts or we're going to see a huge crash.

Popcorn and bets in order.

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ForumGuru

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Frank - didn't mean "not allowed". I just meant "lost demand for".

BTW - Seattle, Washington just instated the $15 minimum wage. Not just for one business type but for any businesses in the area.

With so many on both sides of the fence on whether this will be a good thing or not, it seems we have a new live experiment to watch. No more guessing. Either Seattle is going to zoom on the sustainability charts or we're going to see a huge crash.

Popcorn and bets in order.

Yeah, it will be interesting to see how this unfolds in Seattle...

While attending an event at a SeaTac hotel last week, I met two women who receive the $15/hour minimum wage. SeaTac has implemented the new law on Jan. 1. I met the women while they were working. One was a waitress and the other was cleaning the hallway.
“Are you happy with the $15 wage?” I asked the full-time cleaning lady.
“It sounds good, but it’s not good,” the woman said.
“Why?” I asked.
“I lost my 401k, health insurance, paid holiday, and vacation,” she responded. “No more free food,” she added.
The hotel used to feed her. Now, she has to bring her own food. Also, no overtime, she said. She used to work extra hours and received overtime pay.
What else? I asked.
“I have to pay for parking,” she said.
I then asked the part-time waitress, who was part of the catering staff.
“Yes, I’ve got $15 an hour, but all my tips are now much less,” she said. Before the new wage law was implemented, her hourly wage was $7. But her tips added to more than $15 an hour. Yes, she used to receive free food and parking. Now, she has to bring her own food and pay for parking.

We Can Predict The Effects Of Seattle's $15 An Hour Minimum Wage - Forbes

I was paying a bit of attention to the Forward -> Seattle campaign but it fell 1000+ valid signatures short.

Seattle Minimum Wage Referendum Effort Fails | The Daily Caller

Cheers

-don

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Dennis Gaskill 9 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

BTW - Seattle, Washington just instated the $15 minimum wage. Not just for one business type but for any businesses in the area.

In the words of Arte Johnson, "Verrry interesting."

Save a bowl of popcorn for me.
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HeySal

9 years ago

Huh. I read that the $15 min was activated there.

Not sure where Sea Tack is but these people were getting benefits, extra hours, etc. Out here where I am it's min wage, 20 hours - 28 maximum so nobody reaches full time status. There is no charge for parking - anywhere for anyone. People do not get sick pay, vacation pay, 401K, or anything else. They get their stinking half time, min wage and are often told that they are not allowed time off even without pay. They ask for days off and are just told no. Employers can fire for any or no reason so employees are afraid to insist that they are too sick or need to get away. I wash every bit of produce I take home with hydrogen peroxide because I've seen sick employees coughing or sneezing on the food and just don't go near restaurants anymore. There's too many sick people having to work sick. That's just wrong - for everyone.

We're not in a free market. Small businesses are caving because of regulation - large corps are subsidized with citizen tax money, yet scream they can't afford. Bull shyte, they can't. There's a big difference between won't and can't. The problem is these corps have the attitude that no amount of profit is enough. They are driving mom and pop under with the help of gov regulation, so people are working two jobs for nothing and killing themselves.........which is also a benefit as many of these corporations have insurance policies on their workers. They actually benefit when someone dies. Walmart has these policies, so does Amazon (can't remember the name of them).

In a free market I would say that the last thing we should do is regulate wages. We don't have a free market. We're inside of a purely fascist system........which has never worked for ANY country before and won't for this one either.

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new look at the fast food wage demands

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