What are your promises when you sell SEO, or any Marketing Services?

31 replies
Hey everyone, I hope your holiday season has been good.

I'm having problems landing my first local SEO client... Here's what's going on.

I can fulfill the work since I've practiced on a few of my sites... But I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong in the sales process.

I want to say it's somewhere between qualifying to ensure they're capable of paying for it, and also finding ways to make it profitable for the end user.

Obviously SEO takes awhile... but do you promise profitability when you sell this service? Maybe I'm still trying to understand what all the customer expects...

How do you manage expectations?
#marketing #promises #sell #seo #services
  • Profile picture of the author Michael Karp
    I'm in the same boat as you, except I'm selling content marketing services.

    I promise results within 3 months, so I recommend that each client stick with me for at least 3 months.

    I also promise things like generating leads, increasing sales, more social shares, more traffic, etc. And I'm fully confident that I can deliver.

    I would suggest being as confident as possible in your skills, and since you have already gotten results from your own sites, use those results to pitch clients. Say, "This is what I was able to do on my own site, so here's what I can do for you."

    Do you have your own blog set up as well? Might help when conveying your skills and expertise.

    And what issues are you having specifically? Are you getting interest from clients, and then are they backing out after a certain point in the conversation?
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  • Michael, yeah... you feel my pain.

    I do not have a blog setup, per se.... but what I do in my lead generation is network and create video funnels, and I really think that generating leads isn't a problem...

    Now I'm just getting objections up the wazoo, and I'm trying to put my potential clients at ease...

    People get the sticker shock effect as well -_-
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Karp
      I could see a number of reasons for this:

      - Your prices might be too high, since you haven't got any previous client work to use as leverage

      - You might just be attracting clients that can't afford your services. I would look into startup companies that have just gotten venture capital funding. They have tons of cash to get rid of, and they want to grow quickly and efficiently to impress investors. That would be perfect for you.

      - They simply don't feel comfortable they'll get a return on their investment. Do you provide any sort of money-back guarantee, or something to qualm their anxieties? That might be your ticket to client heaven right there, especially if you don't have a problem generating leads.

      At what point do they usually drop out of your funnel?
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    • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
      Originally Posted by Luis Michael Orts View Post

      Michael, yeah... you feel my pain.

      I do not have a blog setup, per se.... but what I do in my lead generation is network and create video funnels, and I really think that generating leads isn't a problem...

      Now I'm just getting objections up the wazoo, and I'm trying to put my potential clients at ease...

      People get the sticker shock effect as well -_-
      The worthwhile objections from worthwhile prospects - address ahead of time in your preselling
      and presentations.

      Perhaps put price out there ahead of time and on your website to serve as a qualifier
      and get rid of the unrealistic and cheap prospects.

      Dan
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  • Profile picture of the author savidge4
    hmm... here is the thing. SEO does NOT take time. it takes hold or it doesn't. you know if it takes hold in a matter of days... not over some extended period of time.

    Think of it this way, you are asking your prospects to open up their checkbook for an undisclosed amount of time, and you may or may not produce results.

    I personally run SEO campaigns for clients in 90 day increments. ( when I do offer this service as a stand alone - which is not often ) In those 90 days I used to guarantee doubling their traffic ( this was my lower price based option ) My more recent ( last 2 years ) price base has been determined not on traffic, but the outcome itself. be it sales or sign-ups or what have you. I currently guarantee to ROI. my service being the investment, and the return being increasing sales by the amount I charge.

    So what exactly does my form of SEO look like? well it is the obvious increase in traffic. I go through on sit and on page SEO like a mad man for the first week or so. I get the EXISTING structure in shape, to not only handle traffic, but to draw traffic. Phase 2 is then adding to what is already there. SEO specific content with the design of drawing NEW traffic. Phase 3 of the traffic portion is tuning the adjustments made in phase 1 and 2. that is the end of the first month.

    The second aspect I deal with is conversion of the traffic. You can pour as much traffic as you like at a page, and if it wont convert... well what's the sense? Phase 1 of the conversion process is identifying where the traffic drops and blocks are and working through those, one at a time. I do initially work from a base of "Best Practices", and these changes are made in the "handle traffic" portion of SEO phase 1.

    Depending on the overall traffic flow of the site this can take anywhere from a month to a month and a half. 90% of the time by this point I have met the requirements of my Guarantee, if not way sooner.

    Again getting into the last few weeks of a 90 day contract, any SE submissions ( baidu, dmoz, bing etc. ) should be coming into play, and all that is left is some final tweeking of page placement.

    STOP selling increase traffic, and start selling increased PROFITS, and you will see a shift in your prospects. STOP selling stupid open ended contracts and start selling result based short term contracts.

    Here is a recent thread that goes over the concept a bit http://www.warriorforum.com/offline-...you-think.html

    Originally Posted by Luis Michael Orts View Post

    Hey everyone, I hope your holiday season has been good.

    I'm having problems landing my first local SEO client... Here's what's going on.

    I can fulfill the work since I've practiced on a few of my sites... But I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong in the sales process.

    I want to say it's somewhere between qualifying to ensure they're capable of paying for it, and also finding ways to make it profitable for the end user.

    Obviously SEO takes awhile... but do you promise profitability when you sell this service? Maybe I'm still trying to understand what all the customer expects...

    How do you manage expectations?
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    • Originally Posted by Michael Karp View Post

      I could see a number of reasons for this:

      - Your prices might be too high, since you haven't got any previous client work to use as leverage

      - You might just be attracting clients that can't afford your services. I would look into startup companies that have just gotten venture capital funding. They have tons of cash to get rid of, and they want to grow quickly and efficiently to impress investors. That would be perfect for you.

      - They simply don't feel comfortable they'll get a return on their investment. Do you provide any sort of money-back guarantee, or something to qualm their anxieties? That might be your ticket to client heaven right there, especially if you don't have a problem generating leads.

      At what point do they usually drop out of your funnel?
      Michael, I think you're right on all levels. I will look into creating risk-reversal for the client.. But, I think people want SEO to work from pennies... maybe I need to set expectations better on what they should expect in an SEO campaign and why it'll be profitable in their specific niche. I've still got some work to do man.

      I would say during the presentation they drop out, but at that point it's simply because I didn't educate them enough on what matters, or they weren't qualified properly.

      Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

      hmm... here is the thing. SEO does NOT take time. it takes hold or it doesn't. you know if it takes hold in a matter of days... not over some extended period of time.

      Think of it this way, you are asking your prospects to open up their checkbook for an undisclosed amount of time, and you may or may not produce results.

      I personally run SEO campaigns for clients in 90 day increments. ( when I do offer this service as a stand alone - which is not often ) In those 90 days I used to guarantee doubling their traffic ( this was my lower price based option ) My more recent ( last 2 years ) price base has been determined not on traffic, but the outcome itself. be it sales or sign-ups or what have you. I currently guarantee to ROI. my service being the investment, and the return being increasing sales by the amount I charge.

      So what exactly does my form of SEO look like? well it is the obvious increase in traffic. I go through on sit and on page SEO like a mad man for the first week or so. I get the EXISTING structure in shape, to not only handle traffic, but to draw traffic. Phase 2 is then adding to what is already there. SEO specific content with the design of drawing NEW traffic. Phase 3 of the traffic portion is tuning the adjustments made in phase 1 and 2. that is the end of the first month.

      The second aspect I deal with is conversion of the traffic. You can pour as much traffic as you like at a page, and if it wont convert... well what's the sense? Phase 1 of the conversion process is identifying where the traffic drops and blocks are and working through those, one at a time. I do initially work from a base of "Best Practices", and these changes are made in the "handle traffic" portion of SEO phase 1.

      Depending on the overall traffic flow of the site this can take anywhere from a month to a month and a half. 90% of the time by this point I have met the requirements of my Guarantee, if not way sooner.

      Again getting into the last few weeks of a 90 day contract, any SE submissions ( baidu, dmoz, bing etc. ) should be coming into play, and all that is left is some final tweeking of page placement.

      STOP selling increase traffic, and start selling increased PROFITS, and you will see a shift in your prospects. STOP selling stupid open ended contracts and start selling result based short term contracts.

      Here is a recent thread that goes over the concept a bit http://www.warriorforum.com/offline-...you-think.html
      Hmmm, Savidge, your SEO strategies may be indeed killing it then.. Normally for me, I see results after 2 weeks of on page and I'm not seeing results until 60-70 days (as far as phone calls) And this is just from my own experiences

      I want to sell profitability most definitely. I saw that thread and read it.

      I guess in reality, I just need to create the right dialogue when I'm setting the expectations by covering all of the clients worries and pre-conceptions prior to the presentation.
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      • Profile picture of the author savidge4
        Originally Posted by Luis Michael Orts View Post

        Hmmm, Savidge, your SEO strategies may be indeed killing it then.. Normally for me, I see results after 2 weeks of on page and I'm not seeing results until 60-70 days (as far as phone calls) And this is just from my own experiences.
        So the question needs to be asked... why the gap? How can your on page results move in 2 weeks, but actual action take 60 to 70 days? what's missing here?

        In case you are wondering.. I probably know that answer to the question.. but do you?
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        • Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

          So the question needs to be asked... why the gap? How can your on page results move in 2 weeks, but actual action take 60 to 70 days? what's missing here?

          In case you are wondering.. I probably know that answer to the question.. but do you?
          I realize that I worded it poorly lol

          What I meant to say is the difference between SEO results and Phone Call results have a large gap, and that's why I don't feel 100% confident selling SEO.

          And... truthfully, I don't.
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          • Profile picture of the author savidge4
            Originally Posted by Luis Michael Orts View Post

            I realize that I worded it poorly lol

            What I meant to say is the difference between SEO results and Phone Call results have a large gap, and that's why I don't feel 100% confident selling SEO.

            And... truthfully, I don't.
            At the very CORE of SEO and all of its magic, is the actual structure of a site. the definition of "structure" without getting into silly amounts of detail, is simply navigation. SEO 101, I am more than sure you have heard of, read, and probably practice "Cross linking" It is without question one of the best SEO strategies you can employ. HOWEVER... linking to a page 2 times, because that is what you are supposed to do, is the beginning of the end for most.

            Bill Gates has said "Content is King" and that may very well be true... but, if that is true, that makes CONTEXT God. Very bluntly, linking out of CONTEXT is a wasted link.

            The purest form of context based site structure is what is called Silo structure. In a nutshell, you have a silo filled with wheat, another with rye, another with hops another with rice. The moment any of these silos is connected to the other ( cross linking ) you no longer have separate silos, you have multigrain. ( I think a beer might be in order )

            The overall practicality of developing a solid silo structure, is really slim to none for most. One of the few downfalls with WordPress as an example is the method that "content" is stored. It is stored in descending order newest to oldest. So regardless of of CONTEXT and its relation to the page before and after, that is how the likes of Google read it.

            So you have a page that is about social media. One day you write about G+, the next about Facebook, and the next about Twitter, and the next about Pinterest. All of these topics are related in content, but are apposing in CONTEXT. But it doesn't stop there, and here is exactly why Google, Bing, Baidu, DMOZ etc follow along in this thinking...

            It is about the USER experience. If I were to do a search on "G+'. I get your page, easy enough an article on G+, so far so good. I read your article, like what I see, and want to read more. You have been a good webmaster and left links to the most recent posts. You have left pagination links at the bottom of the post that link me to the post you wrote previously, and the one you wrote afterwards. So far this is sounding good, if not great.

            BUT think of the USER.. what did they search? they searched "G+" what are they interested in? G+ where do all of the links on the page go ( all of that great cross linking ) it goes to an article on Pinterest, and Twitter, and Facebook. ALL of it OUT OF CONTEXT. And what happens to the user? they BOUNCE. - and then what happens to your SEO? it fails.

            Or does it? The big G ( IE Google ) is one big Gigantic math equation. It is continually comparing your G+ article and its user based interaction with other like pages. Variables like location, and age of site, and time spent on page etc start to kick in. you will see your listing bobble in the listings. page 1, page 6 not listed at all, back to page 6, then not listed, then page 1. Basically bouncing around like an untethered balloon. ( the tether in this case is context ) in 2 weeks time, yes it settles - for the time being.

            What is REALLY going on here, is A/B testing on the part of Google. Which page preforms the best at the user level?

            I will tell you from personal experience, when I saw this behavior, I was so fast linking that page to a new piece of content that is targeting the exact same keyword string / context. and the bobble would stop, and I generally had 2 links In the top 20. if not top 10. - throw in a youtube video in the mix, and without question you end up with 3 links in the top 10.

            So the delay... the delay is you looking ( I will bet about the same time each day ) at your new well positioned listing and you are not seeing the bounce. it maybe nice for a couple of hours ( I will also assume you are checking rank at some point in the evening), but gone for the rest of the day. At some point, you may have the fortune of that listing settling in, after bouncing for 60 to 70 days, and get the wanted results.

            You may have noticed that I was using past tense, in reference to seeing this phenomena. The only place I will notice it, is on a Forum I have, and again I simply add content. But for my every day SEO needs, there is a simple fix to the issue. Multiple chained articles.

            One 2500 word article broken into 5 pieces part 1 part 2 ... part 5. you then submit this in reverse order part 5 first, part 1 last. ( You do this so that in a most recent listing, #1 is on top, and #5 is on the bottom ) you then go in and link 5, 4, 3, and 2 to page 1 of the article "Series" - this is #1 effective cross linking, and #2 it is good for the user that may get a search result for page 4, and want to read the entire article.

            There are other obvious benefits to this. #1, they read page one, and press a link to the second page, and the third and the fourth. you have just created user retention and greatly expanded user time on your site. #2 You break the user end easy out in this scenario ( the back button ) #3 You are leading the user on a chain of CONTEXT related material, you are building a relationship, you are building TRUST. #4 With every passing moment spent on your page, with every Call to Action that is being passed along the journey, with T I M E the outcome to do as you wish becomes inevitable. They MAKE the call, they FILL out the form, they BUY the product.

            One other quick little trick. Fight Fire with Fire. you want results with big G? Use big G to get them. 3 step process... #1 Install Feedburner ( a Google Product ) #2 build and develop a G+. #3 your content shared within your circle on G+.

            So what does this do? well Feedburner "Instantly" ques your newly written content for submission ( there is no waiting for it to see new content on its next bot pass ) Feedburner passes it "Instantly" to your G+ page, and spreads it within your circle. If you can get as few as 2 shares of that content, you will within an hour can have a front page listing.
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    • Profile picture of the author kayoz
      Thank you Savadge! You are so right! Not everyone out there selling SEO has a clue what they're doing with SEO.

      What we seem to forget is this...no one cares if you're not making money. They aren't in business to make you money or buy your next shiney object. They aren't buying traffic, they aren't buying SEO, what they are buying is PROFITS or leads which equates profits.

      If you don't have sales technique down to a fine art, regardless of how great your product is...you won't get a sale. I've made a fortune in sales...but I didn't make it over night or in the first 3 weeks in the field. You have to pay your dues, and in this case both in sales and in SEO.

      It takes time to tune your ear to hear what the real objection is and know how to handle it. Most sales people don't even hear it. They know it's an objection but they don't know what it is for sure because they haven't isolated it. They're to busy coming up with an answer before they even know for sure what the objection is.

      If you're getting objections up the wazoo then you aren't providing any quality information that the buyer is interested in in your presentation. Most likely, you aren't qualifying your client sufficiently before you dive into your presentation. Stop telling and start selling.

      Whenever selling anything, even if it's a just a concept, don't start by presenting all the features. That's backwards. You'll end up confusing your buyer and wasting a lot of time. First, ask a lot of questions and listen very closely to the answer. A person who is ready, willing and able to buy will tell you exactly how to sell them saving you loads of time and frustration.

      If the buyer has no pain, you can't heal his pain. If it's just that he's not aware of his pain, then that's a different story, you can make him aware of where he's bleeding. Selling anything to anyone is really providing a bandaide to stop the bleeding and a cure for the pain. If you don't know where they hurt, you don't know how to sell to them or what to sell to them. That is sales 101.

      If you can't provide at least some definitive proof of profits that are realized, then you can't sell the product. Would you buy a car based on what someone tells you or would you want to drive it, hear from others who own it, see what it's done for others? Do some work for a handful of businesses for free for the first 3 to 6 months, build credibility. From what you're saying here, if I'm reading you correctly, you are not even sure what you're doing and your buyer senses that.

      Remember, this might be your first venture into sales, but they deal with sales people every single day. They can smell a good sales person a mile away, and they can tell when they're being sold by someone who doesn't know what they're talking about too. They will sense your lack of faith in your abilities...and they aren't buying. No one buys snake oil; no one buys until the question "Whats in it for me" is answered.

      We all have to pay our dues, No one deserves to be paid for doing work for others until they've paid their dues. And, quite frankly, not everyone is a sales person never mind a good one. Having trained many sales people, I will tell you that the real high dollar sales person is not the norm, it is the exception. If you aren't confident with your product, then first gain some confidence. If you aren't good with sales, find someone who is. It's better to pay a good sales person a commission than to try to sell it yourself.

      To date, I've sold almost everything known to man, both online and offline. It's not easy...it's hard work. It's taken many years and some very, very lean months to hone my craft. I don't work for cheap anymore...because I now know and can prove that my closing ration is close to 50%, and it's only because I qualify really hard and really fast. That's 90% of a sale right there...qualifying your prospect. Mind you, I also will not align myself with a product or a provider that can't provide me with serious proof of what their product delivers to the end user either.

      Zig Ziglar always said, you have to go through a thousand no's to get to that one yes. If your closing ratio is 30% and you need 30 sales a month to make a living then sit down and break out the numbers. If you know that you need to talk to 100 people get 3 to say yes, they wil llisten to you then you need at least 1000 leads to get the 30 then if you can close 1/3 of those that's 10 sales...It's always a numbers game. But, the most important thing is even Dan Kennedy can't sell a product that he doesn't have faith in...no one can.
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  • WOW.

    I am freaking dumbfounded by the amount of KICKASS information you just hit me with.

    I am also very humbled from your help...

    I think I'll take this nugget to put into action

    I'll test out a new site in the coming weeks, and I will let you know how it goes. Thanks my friend.
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  • Profile picture of the author DaniMc
    savidge is killing it. Just amazing info from someone who obviously knows what he is talking about.

    Have you considered picking a niche? Since you are just getting started, you could develop a marketing site for one niche. This site is full of great content, has PPC campaigns set up, is building a list, has social media pages and profiles etc...

    Then, with those results, you can begin approaching businesses in that niche, showing them your results, and offering to set up an almost exact marketing platform for them.

    There are many companies doing this in the real estate niche. They own the PPC campaigns and websites, and when a new client signs on, they just start sending traffic to their proven pages with proven campaigns.

    If you were operating in a niche (forget real estate), you could build one system with proven results, then just sell it over and over and over in different cities. It could home remodeling, various medical niches, auto body shops, banks, high-end audio stores, etc...

    Once you set up a proven profitable system, it will be very easy for you to manage, and you could have 500 clients paying you $1,000 per month for the system.

    Right now I am paying a company $650 per month for a site, +$250/mo for Adwords, +$250/mo for Facebook PPC. They sell the same service to thousands of people. They know exactly what they are doing, I am thrilled with the results, and they had me up and running in about 4 days.
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    • Profile picture of the author MSutton
      I have the one and only solution to your problem...

      Get out of the SEO business altogether. Why?

      Because if you are truly ept at Search engine optimization and therefore you really can get a client's website ranked for keywords that will bring in targeted traffic, you could make WAY more money through affiliate sales, website flipping, ad revenue, etc, etc, etc by building your own site and getting them ranked well. This way, you are truly independent and you really have no boss and you make WAY more money.

      Services like SEO are very time consuming and the clients can many times be unbearable to deal with (same goes for web design). These customers are probably some of the worst boss's you'll ever have (yes, that's right, because when you are in business selling to people, those people are your boss).

      You only need one customer to make a killing in SEO and that is yourself.
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      • Profile picture of the author savidge4
        I am going to agree to disagree to some extent here. Sure the client grind is a pain, but again developing systems and structure.. those clients end up coming to YOU and not the other way around.

        Don't get me wrong, I personally have affiliate sites and do very well with them, but not half of what I do on the client sided. Look specifically at the model that Dan presents above. He is paying $1000 a month to get prospects. If you are the supplier of that service and you replicate that across 100 clients, you are looking at a Gross income figure of $100,000 and that's a MONTH. show me an affiliate that is doing that - CONSITSANTLY. ( I will more than admit, they are out there, but few and far between )

        SEO is NOT as hard and time consuming as people make it out to be. Couple that with a front end traffic source that is already in place and clients will gladly handover big dollars. $1000 a month is pocket change when you can produce 10 - 20 - 30 fold to clients.

        I currently am working in the CRO space. I will tell you first hand that CRO is without question more hands on time consuming than SEO. BUT by enlarge it is far easier to close ( we are talking taking candy from a baby easy, and not even taking it out of a babies hands, but walking up to the hi-chair and pulling a piece off the tray easy )

        The simple secret to all of this comes right down tone thing and one thing only producing RESULTS. If you cant DO what it is you are supposed to, then get out, if you think its hard and time consuming then you need to get out. IF you can control traffic and put it here or there or over yonder... then its a game changer, and the world is your oyster


        Originally Posted by MSutton View Post

        I have the one and only solution to your problem...

        Get out of the SEO business altogether. Why?

        Because if you are truly ept at Search engine optimization and therefore you really can get a client's website ranked for keywords that will bring in targeted traffic, you could make WAY more money through affiliate sales, website flipping, ad revenue, etc, etc, etc by building your own site and getting them ranked well. This way, you are truly independent and you really have no boss and you make WAY more money.

        Services like SEO are very time consuming and the clients can many times be unbearable to deal with (same goes for web design). These customers are probably some of the worst boss's you'll ever have (yes, that's right, because when you are in business selling to people, those people are your boss).

        You only need one customer to make a killing in SEO and that is yourself.
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    • Profile picture of the author savidge4
      The secret is laid out below. site development that draws traffic. In a perfect world you want to develop a network of these type of sites. Much like what @Underground discusses on many threads.

      From that point it is not so hard to funnel those broad spectrum viewers into location specific prospects and leads. add the PPC components to this, and it is game on. Just like Dan said, his experience produced results in as little as 4 days. THAT is sellable - on all kinds of levels.

      I think as developers we focus on specific clients and don't really broaden the scope a bit, and look up at the niche level.

      I can tell you that from my own personal 18+ years in development, that any client I sold to, I generally would also develop a niche related site as well. Part of the science behind my personal gravitation towards dealing with "Local" clients is I looked even beyond the niche into the overall demographic market and built structure at that level, and within my clients sites that fed one another.

      The better than theory behind the concept is, if you are going to buy shoes at a store on main street USA, you are going to stop by the bakery, and coffee shop. separate niches, same market, SAME consumer Prospects.

      Stepping this back into the niche focus you want to really look at and understand the target niche. You want to know what the multiple points of pain are. you want to know where that niche most PROFITS. These are the things you want to develop that traffic funnel from. Electricians as an example Panel replacement is a huge profit center. and once you start looking at this in particular, you see some staggering facts and details as to why you as a home owner might really consider doing this every 10 - 15 years. THAT becomes the target.

      Once the traffic is generated you can then again turn those site users into prospects. The tools without question are there as I have said to segregate and identify prospects and pair them with client. Geo coding your traffic sites is a very good method in doing this.

      If you have read anything I have written on this forum, you hear me use 2 terms constantly, and they are; "Systems" and "structure" these concepts not only apply to fulfillment applications but in terms of what we are speaking here. client traffic, and more importantly, clients themselves.



      Originally Posted by Dan McCoy View Post

      savidge is killing it. Just amazing info from someone who obviously knows what he is talking about.

      Have you considered picking a niche? Since you are just getting started, you could develop a marketing site for one niche. This site is full of great content, has PPC campaigns set up, is building a list, has social media pages and profiles etc...

      Then, with those results, you can begin approaching businesses in that niche, showing them your results, and offering to set up an almost exact marketing platform for them.

      There are many companies doing this in the real estate niche. They own the PPC campaigns and websites, and when a new client signs on, they just start sending traffic to their proven pages with proven campaigns.

      If you were operating in a niche (forget real estate), you could build one system with proven results, then just sell it over and over and over in different cities. It could home remodeling, various medical niches, auto body shops, banks, high-end audio stores, etc...

      Once you set up a proven profitable system, it will be very easy for you to manage, and you could have 500 clients paying you $1,000 per month for the system.

      Right now I am paying a company $650 per month for a site, +$250/mo for Adwords, +$250/mo for Facebook PPC. They sell the same service to thousands of people. They know exactly what they are doing, I am thrilled with the results, and they had me up and running in about 4 days.
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  • Dan, that doesn't sound like a bad idea.

    I feel like dominating a niche wouldn't be overly difficult if there's no one they feel is an expert at what they're doing.

    Funny enough... it sounds like something I just saw a youtube ad for, and I analyzed the hell out of what this guy did... and it's extremely similar to what you just suggested. In fact...

    It was brilliant.

    I personally only like working with service based businesses, since I've been learning it now for so long..

    That's the direction I'll try! If it doesn't work out, back to the drawing board. And if it does? Well... I'll buy you a beer. lol
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  • Profile picture of the author JGK
    Great thread thank you as I too am wresting with my offering selling SEO.
    Savidge and Kayoz...wonderful help thank you.

    My 2p worth on selling is that features are boring it's the benefit that sells...WIIFM. They dont really care you do on site conversion /articles/videos/social media amplification etc they care about what it gives them...which gets back to being certain about what results you can get. I think this post has made me realize I am not sure....and people can smell uncertainty. I know I can.
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    • Profile picture of the author great full john
      savidge4, you are hired.
      I am the consumer you guys want to sell your SEO service to. I am tired of getting mailings or talking to SEO sales people trying to sell me SEO work when they have no clue. I have a real estate website and I used to do well with the rankings but the competition is much better than I am these days. The PRICE of your SEO product is VERY important when I do not know if you can accomplish what you say you can. Too many people can't get the job done and not only did I waste a few bucks on crappy SEO service (and maybe it hurt me) but I lost sales by not being on page 1. IF my SEO person can get me GREAT SEO result I can afford to spend more for the SEO service. Like Tom Cruise said "help me, to help you". If you can get me on page 1 for a few good keywords I make an extra $10,000 per month. I can now afford to pay you a much better fee. The problem is many SEO people can't deliver.
      savidg4 maybe you could share with us what you might charge for the service you described?
      I understand some markets are tougher than others and some keywords are tougher than others but give the other SEO students a lesson on estimating a price for the type of service, 60-90 days, page 1, service you described.
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      • Profile picture of the author savidge4
        To give you an idea... my process, I am concerned little if less than little on what the "ideal" keywords are, and more on where the specific RESULTS can be found.

        If you were to walk into my office today we are going to have a nice little sit down, we would NOT discuss price, and I would educate you on the value or lack of value in keywords. The FIRST step in my process is pouring over your sites analytics. If you don't have them, then step 1 in the process is getting that in place and looking at a months worth.

        The next step is understand what and who you target. You are in real estate. do you target big dollar homes, condos, relocations, distressed, 7 year itch etc? Again working with Real Estate is a market, and focusing on selling distressed home owners homes is a niche. WHERE are YOUR strengths and weakness' in the market place. Basically WHO is your ideal client.

        So now I have the analytics info, I can see what has been targeted, and what is missing. Comparing this to the above "Ideal Client" starts the process. Depending on a whole litany of variables we move forward with some "New Build" site structure, or we develop the existing site. I will tell you 9 times out of 10, there is either a new main site re-build or a combination of a main site rebuild and the development of support site structure.

        Now starts the base of targeted result based traffic. Notice I didn't say "Traffic", I said "Result Based Traffic" I specifically start targeting your "Ideal Client" in a number of methods. SEO in particular. Articles that are "Real Estate" oriented. Articles that are TARGET oriented. This is where I introduce the Social aspect. and I have stated above, my primary target in this method is G+, for the reasons mentioned above.

        I think you can see that this process is going to provide different results than targeting "Real Estate - insert town here" If done correctly, that type of term becomes a by product of the efforts. But those types of terms are far from what I look for and target.

        Now the cost. Usually in the up front meeting I know what a Converted prospect is worth to you. We will say $3000 as an example. I do understand that you are going to have expenses IE newspaper ads etc. I determine my companies more than probably time to develop this, and would say I could in 3 months time develop 10 pre qualified sell em and sign em leads in the first 90 days. those 10 Clients on your end are worth $2500 each after expenses.

        so my pricing structure comes in at $25,000 for 90 days of work for you. BUT... I guarantee what I do. If I don't deliver $25,000 worth of client potential to your front door in those 90 days... I refund any and All charges. 100% ROI of investment Guarantee. I feel its THAT, that separates me from most any and all competitors in the SEO game.

        The unfortunate side of this for you... I don't do real estate. I simply have not had enough demand ( or interest I am sorry to say ) in that particular market to have any type of back end in place. And I don't think I have anything that parallels either.

        Right there unto itself is a lesson that needs to be learned by MANY in the SEO game. Know your limits, and hold to them - regardless how much money is waved in front of you.



        Originally Posted by great full john View Post

        savidge4, you are hired.
        I am the consumer you guys want to sell your SEO service to. I am tired of getting mailings or talking to SEO sales people trying to sell me SEO work when they have no clue. I have a real estate website and I used to do well with the rankings but the competition is much better than I am these days. The PRICE of your SEO product is VERY important when I do not know if you can accomplish what you say you can. Too many people can't get the job done and not only did I waste a few bucks on crappy SEO service (and maybe it hurt me) but I lost sales by not being on page 1. IF my SEO person can get me GREAT SEO result I can afford to spend more for the SEO service. Like Tom Cruise said "help me, to help you". If you can get me on page 1 for a few good keywords I make an extra $10,000 per month. I can now afford to pay you a much better fee. The problem is many SEO people can't deliver.
        savidg4 maybe you could share with us what you might charge for the service you described?
        I understand some markets are tougher than others and some keywords are tougher than others but give the other SEO students a lesson on estimating a price for the type of service, 60-90 days, page 1, service you described.
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      • Profile picture of the author savidge4
        great full John,

        So I don't sound like a hypothetical greater than thoa piss ant in my last response. do me a favor... and PM me your link, and I will at the very least spend the time and do some on site investigation into your site specifically for you. If nothing else out of this, I can point you into a direction that will assist you in moving forward with success from your SEO endeavors.

        I have over time specialized. I do product and location type SEO. I am not to keen on service based client SEO or more exactly Lead Gen. They are simply 2 different things. So I try to stay with in the do what I know arena. Yes many of the principles carry across that goes without question, but again it comes down to my level of understanding and principles of application that come into play. Lead gen is simply a beast I have taken on very little.

        Originally Posted by great full john View Post

        savidge4, you are hired.
        I am the consumer you guys want to sell your SEO service to. I am tired of getting mailings or talking to SEO sales people trying to sell me SEO work when they have no clue. I have a real estate website and I used to do well with the rankings but the competition is much better than I am these days. The PRICE of your SEO product is VERY important when I do not know if you can accomplish what you say you can. Too many people can't get the job done and not only did I waste a few bucks on crappy SEO service (and maybe it hurt me) but I lost sales by not being on page 1. IF my SEO person can get me GREAT SEO result I can afford to spend more for the SEO service. Like Tom Cruise said "help me, to help you". If you can get me on page 1 for a few good keywords I make an extra $10,000 per month. I can now afford to pay you a much better fee. The problem is many SEO people can't deliver.
        savidg4 maybe you could share with us what you might charge for the service you described?
        I understand some markets are tougher than others and some keywords are tougher than others but give the other SEO students a lesson on estimating a price for the type of service, 60-90 days, page 1, service you described.
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  • Profile picture of the author RobRatliff
    I can help you sell SEO, I've been doing this for my own business for a couple of years. However, I really don't want to post a long article here. So just let me know if you would like to call me, skype me, use join.me or ignore me. I'll tell you what I am doing and why it's working.
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  • Profile picture of the author JGK
    Savidge4 great information thank you. So it sounds like your main focus is onsite work ie the getting the context right which is what generates most of your inbound traffic altho you'll add in G+/Feedburner.

    So you tend to do little else to get your results ...no article marketing publishing to other sites, video publishing? None of what could be broadly called link building...apart from G+?

    If I follow your explanation you do work with WP sites but use the "5 articles in a row" concept so the the next article will be in context/focus on the same KW. And you could have 10-20-30 groups of 5 articles? Do you not create categories or at least dont have the links on the page?

    You make sure you have a post which has links to the next and previous post although what do you do for the 1st and 5th article? Not an issue?

    I imagine the guarantee of results or refund is a big seller. I am not confident enough to offer taht but will work toward it.

    JK
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    • Profile picture of the author savidge4
      Originally Posted by JGK View Post

      Savidge4 great information thank you. So it sounds like your main focus is onsite work ie the getting the context right which is what generates most of your inbound traffic altho you'll add in G+/Feedburner.
      Onsite absolutely. STRUCTURE is I cant reinforce enough is paramount in successful SEO. Right behind that is the ability to convert. Conversion happens ONSITE. If you can bring them in and you cant convert them... what's the sense?

      SEO targeted landing pages are in essence "Funnels" It doesn't matter if its a PPC link, or a Facebook ad, or a search engine listing. That traffic hit a landing page.. then what? you have to CONVERT. That page is NOT there for good looks, or to even be read and have the end user move on. You have to hold them, and convert them.

      Originally Posted by JGK View Post

      So you tend to do little else to get your results ...no article marketing publishing to other sites, video publishing? None of what could be broadly called link building...apart from G+?
      Sure there is some offsite work that takes place. Much of what I do is "No Follow" back linking, I do some "Follow" context and geo targeted back linking as well. The thing to remember with back linking as a strategy in general. link within CONTEXT, and forget everything else. PR and age and blah blah blah doesn't matter, back link WITHIN context and you are good to go.

      I do in many cases use video. Again The whole fighting fire with fire principle. YouTube is owned by who?

      In regards to article publishing... cant say I do much if any of that. On a rare rare occasion. Chances are better than good in most of these cases you are going to get a "No Follow" link, and the same can be done by making a comment on an already posted article.

      Originally Posted by JGK View Post

      If I follow your explanation you do work with WP sites but use the "5 articles in a row" concept so the the next article will be in context/focus on the same KW. And you could have 10-20-30 groups of 5 articles? Do you not create categories or at least dont have the links on the page?
      I more than suggest one 5 article set a week, EVERY week. build some up, and have them auto post. "Do you not create categories or at least dont have the links on the page?" I do list articles within the same category on the sidebar or footer or both. Categories are basically "Keywords" so as specific as possible is great. Articles on "G+" the category is "G+" articles on "FaceBook" category is "FaceBook"

      I am going to admit something here, as well as stated above, I cheat My most recent work, I have been using WP FACET for my off category "Category" listings. Facet is probably one of the best SEO tools invented in recent years. a quick down and dirty. It is Java script driven. Java script linking is not followed by Google Bot. Said links do not exist... I am sure you can continue the line of thinking there.

      Originally Posted by JGK View Post

      You make sure you have a post which has links to the next and previous post although what do you do for the 1st and 5th article? Not an issue?
      I use stock pagination - show the title... that's good stuff. The linking is done for you. As I said before I do also link back to that first article in pages 2 thru 5.

      This question is specifically the reason behind the 5 post concept. Post 1 and 5 should have diminished value, for obvious reasons. I use post 1 as a preface to the article. what will be in the following pages yada yada yada. The 5th post obviously at this point becomes a summary of what was covered and ties all of the content together.

      The 5th post in general is the post that tends to immediately rank the best, hence the suggestion of placing a direct link to page 1 of the article. ( I have played with why this is, and have yet to come up with a solid.. "that is why this happens" type of reason. ) This is also the page that will rank Bobble, and usually fall into later pages of the term listing. Pages 2, 3, and 4 will be the ones that rise close to the top.

      Incase you are wondering about page one at this point.... hehehe It is the most juiced page of the bunch. It is linked in a row 4 times. where do you think it ends up?
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      • Profile picture of the author JGK
        Savidge...wow thanks again. I hope I am not being a pest but I see some real power here.

        I definitely see why conversion/structure is key. On the one hand it makes you throw your hands up when you see the "yard sale" people have as a site... on the other hand it makes you smile as they clearly need help. Conventional wisdom I think is that ranking is 70:30 offsite to onsite it feels like you have turned that on its head.

        By "offsite in context" backlinking I assume you mean finding a site/blog/forum that is tight to the business niche and then make comments and guest post o posts about the specific topic eg G+?

        Hmm yes isn't it odd that other vid sites like Vimeo rarely show up in Google's results . I rarely do articles now either.

        So while there is other navigation you manually add the links to the posts at the bottom presumably above the footer? And post 5 links back to post 1 which forms a nice loop.

        I took a look at Facet- very interesting and not expensive...so you kind of do have categories but almost hidden...as presumably they land on say post #1 for G+ and G+ as a category is already selected (hiding all the others?) However I am clearly being slow here...so it's Java script and G wont follow ..but why would it matter if they could follow? Would it undo the effect of the 1-5 manual links?

        How are you tracking actual customers for these companies? Do you get into CRM /source of lead discussions ...or is it just general sales uplift?

        Your posts have my mind racing.

        JK
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        • Profile picture of the author savidge4
          Originally Posted by JGK View Post

          I definitely see why conversion/structure is key. On the one hand it makes you throw your hands up when you see the "yard sale" people have as a site... on the other hand it makes you smile as they clearly need help. Conventional wisdom I think is that ranking is 70:30 offsite to onsite it feels like you have turned that on its head.
          even flipped I am no where near that with the work "I" do. a lot of this happens naturally as time passes. I simply lay a solid well directed foundation for that to build.


          Originally Posted by JGK View Post

          By "offsite in context" backlinking I assume you mean finding a site/blog/forum that is tight to the business niche and then make comments and guest post o posts about the specific topic eg G+?
          context... a very interesting topic within itself. I think I may <wince> go overboard with the concept, but then again I like to think that i am ahead of the curve in a sense. A page has mutual bases content placing it in context and you pull a link from that page to yours. an easy enough concept. But if you look at what I have written above about related context within SEO principles... its no longer "The Page" its the page and what surrounds it.

          ( added*** start a discussion around "Context" with SEO guys that have PBN's , you will hear both sides of this argument for sure. actually I know I have seen stuff on the SEO forum in regards to this specifically )

          A backlink using "Context" as a rule of value then becomes a bit more complicated. and its this "complication" that determines a valid backlink of VALUE over just a backlink that may or may not work as intended.

          Backlinks in general are kind of hard to "Test" but through my best efforts I have found time and again seeking beyond just the actual page the link is coming from, and looking deeper at the context of content surrounding that page develops a better outcome.

          Back linking is time consuming enough, these principles make it even more so. Kind of like making bread... the doe has to proof, then it has to rise, then it has to rest, and then it has to rise 1 more time, and THEN you put it in the oven. or you can goto the store and buy a loaf... which one tastes better in the end? The better question becomes; how many people bake their own bread?

          Originally Posted by JGK View Post

          Hmm yes isn't it odd that other vid sites like Vimeo rarely show up in Google's results . I rarely do articles now either.
          Google clearly has competition in different market spaces and Google has partnerships. Would you place a link to your competitors site on your own site?

          Originally Posted by JGK View Post

          So while there is other navigation you manually add the links to the posts at the bottom presumably above the footer? And post 5 links back to post 1 which forms a nice loop.
          I personally use the power of wordpress for the pagination linking from previous to next. the specific link from page 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 back to page 1 is right below the h1 title of the post.

          Originally Posted by JGK View Post

          I took a look at Facet- very interesting and not expensive...so you kind of do have categories but almost hidden...as presumably they land on say post #1 for G+ and G+ as a category is already selected (hiding all the others?) However I am clearly being slow here...so it's Java script and G wont follow ..but why would it matter if they could follow? Would it undo the effect of the 1-5 manual links?
          If you are not familiar with "Silo Structure", that is something you really want to look at. Silo is where top level SEO is today. one you understand it, you can start to see its use in many "BIG" web properties around the world. Google as an example being one of them.

          Silo on a smaller scale can be done, its not the easiest thing in the world to get correct, but it can be done. There are actually some WordPress plugins that "help" in this type of structure. There are other more advanced systems out there for wordpress that pretty much nail the concept in terms of getting the most out of it.

          The issue I run into, and have tried to develop work arounds for wordpress in particular, is the end user usability. Silo Structure by default is sparse in user navigation. the basics.. Silos hold "Juice" each and every link on a page diminishes that pages overall juice.

          Each page has a Juice value we will say is 100% for every link on that page, you are dividing that Juice. 2 links, each link will carry 50% of that pages juice value. 10 links and each link will carry 10% of that pages juice value.

          Now bring Facet into the equation... no "seen" links mean no juice loss. BUT the link value using Facet as far as end user usability is priceless. My PRIMARY objectives.. SYSTEMS and STRUCTURE. Structure loosely equates to NAVIGATION. Navigation turns into usability. getting from one piece of content to the next, that progression of the time vs sales process. How easy can YOU make that process?

          Originally Posted by JGK View Post

          How are you tracking actual customers for these companies? Do you get into CRM /source of lead discussions ...or is it just general sales uplift?
          To be honest I have built my business around 2 fundamental website types; e-commerce and local merchant. e-commerce you can track. Local merchant traffic be it from mobile to store connections or walking in with a coupon etc can be tracked.

          Lead gen is just a whole other beast. I will tell you NOW... if I was younger, I would be all over Rus Sells WPCallConversion WordPress plugin, and would have taken my career into the Lead Gen arena without question. Trackable and INSTANT results... geeze really? hahaha


          Originally Posted by JGK View Post

          Your posts have my mind racing.
          Thanks!
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  • Savidge, you are genuinely a good guy. Thanks for the feedback you left here in this thread, and for the help you give around the forum.
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  • Profile picture of the author JGK
    Savidge good stuff yet again

    1) So do you think you are closer to 95:5 structure to link creation?

    2) Finding a page “in context” to link back to you seems like a real challenge esp. as few sites are silo based...how on earth do you go about it?

    3) From the quick research I’ve done your silo approach differs a little as you add the links to the previous/next posts above the current page manually. ” WP Post Navigation” plugin seems to do it for you

    3) WPCallConversion looks very interesting...ideal for local businesses. I will look at this carefully
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    • Profile picture of the author savidge4
      Originally Posted by JGK View Post

      1) So do you think you are closer to 95:5 structure to link creation?
      I went in and looked at a number of projects and the average sits in at 85:15 to 90:10 ( 20 minutes later driven by curiosity ) The actual number since you asked specifically over the last year is specifically 86.23:13.77 Oh the data you can squeeze out when you have really nice sytems in place! hahaha ( not that it matters to you, but I just impressed the hell out of myself. hahaha )

      Originally Posted by JGK View Post

      2) Finding a page "in context" to link back to you seems like a real challenge esp. as few sites are silo based...how on earth do you go about it?
      Not that I am sandbagging on the information I am sharing.. there is a bit more to it? <wince> I do look at far more link factors than context itself. Let me rephrase that... I ALWAYS link based on Context... sometimes however other elements of the equation dictate seeking bedded Context vs a single out in context page. BUT in general it is the goto strategy, and YES it can take some time... but the bread tastes REAL good.

      To give you a better idea of what my strategy is I will refer you to an article if you dont mind: All Links are Not Created Equal: 10 Illustrations - Moz Not that the whole article in itself does not relate to what we are discussing. Points 1 and 4 take special note of. #1 is the placement of the links in relation to the page, and #4 gets out there man. It places the incoming link in relation to "Seed Sites".

      One thing I have noticed over time is the relation to an outside link in relation to its placement "on the internet" itself. what I mean here is the actual structure.. the backbone of the internet. Google as an example IS a piece of the backbone. AOL is a piece of the backbone. The Library of Congress is a piece of the backbone. Amazon is either on the backbone or a "hop" off. ( their file sharing is ON the backbone, their kindle services are a hop off )

      I personally have a few internet connections at my office. My fiber line is 1 hop off, my cable connection is 4 hops off, my DSL is 3 hops off and the 2 Satellite connections I have are each 2 hops off.

      When I look at hosting... ( Page load times is a factor in SEO ) I look for the CLOSEST to the backbone service I can get. Hops equal time, and time is not something Google thinks we should be taking. Optimizing, and code crunching and cache and blah blah blah... if you are SERIOUS about SEO.. you are looking at host providers first above and beyond most everything else. Pages such as this: Bluehost (History) start to give you a better picture of what you need and look for in hosting. I personally am a fan of Lunarpages compare the above.. to this: LunarPages (History) and you will see why.

      Originally Posted by JGK View Post

      3) From the quick research I've done your silo approach differs a little as you add the links to the previous/next posts above the current page manually. " WP Post Navigation" plugin seems to do it for you
      There may have been a bit of a miss read here. The previous next are done using WordPress pagination settings. these are placed at the bottom of the page. The link placed to the top of the page is the link pointing to the 1st post in a series.

      In regards to differing, yes I do stray away from exact silo structure in the realm of WordPress... more specifically WordPress and WooCommerce. it simply is a uphill battle, and one I have made the choice not to partake in. WordPress on its own could be doable, like I said there are some plugins that assist, and some systems that almost basically do it for you. Add WooCommerce into the picture and all hope is lost.

      This is where the 5 pack of content was thought up. The question was how do I maximize the strength of my content without having the benefit of the silo structure? THIS factor alone kept me away from WordPress for Y E A R S.

      The 5-6 pack of content I call "Hay Bales" or "hay baling" as we call it in the office. ( I live in West Virginia - Im a redneck, on some level that is funny - ok to me anyways! ) gets that Juice factor needed. ( Once you have read section 1 of the above link article you will understand the top link - and YES it does work ) SO this is your basic work around to get the overall effect, without all of the overwhelming work needed.
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    Savidge4,
    You seem redneck like the guys from Wyoming who say they are "just a country boy".
    The ones who have college degrees from Harvard and then moved back to Wyoming to open
    a law practice, or get into oil and gas. LOL

    Thanks for your great contributions..

    Dan
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    "If you think you're the smartest person in the room, then you're probably in the wrong room."

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    • Profile picture of the author savidge4
      Originally Posted by bizgrower View Post

      Savidge4,
      You seem redneck like the guys from Wyoming who say they are "just a country boy".
      The ones who have college degrees from Harvard and then moved back to Wyoming to open
      a law practice, or get into oil and gas. LOL

      Thanks for your great contributions..

      Dan
      hahahaha Harvard MIT.. same thing! LOL
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  • Profile picture of the author StaceyNewman234
    Banned
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    • Profile picture of the author savidge4
      I want the term "Soccer" in the #1 position.. how much for the first 3 months... and how long is the free period? because we are talking a lifetime of free. And if you choose to hire me on as a client, better bet your bottom dollar there will be a depreciation of listing clause if you screw things up. Ready for a challenge?


      Originally Posted by StaceyNewman234 View Post

      1. No blackhat methods
      2. 90 day first page ranking guarantee or we continue to work for free.
      3. Our only guarantee is to get them ranked and provide them with legit traffic, it is the companies responsibility to convert those visitors into sales unless they are paying us for that service as well.
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