Bad deals? Bad providers? Bad clients? WHO CARES!!

21 replies
This is not some nifty marketing advice
but
it can make all the difference in the success or failure of your business
and
in the types of clients and paydays you attract.

16 years of full time experience dealing
with every kind of business and niche.

Just about every time I am asked to solve problems now
my QUESTION to the business owner is "Who cares?"

Some recent scenarios:

"Peter my web guy has not responded in 10 days"
"Who Cares?"

"Peter, my site got hacked and the host is doing nothing!"
"Who cares?"

"Peter they promised me higher rankings but no movement!"
"Who cares?"

I tell business owners they need to stop kidding themselves
and see that nobody cares unless they have a base motivation to care.

We can whine like babies when hostgator does not reply to our
hacked site for a week
but
WE chose to buy CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP hosting.
Do you think they give a rats ass if you leave?
You, one customer of a gazillion giving them a whopping $10 a month.

How about the web guy you graciously pay $69 a month to.
Ya he will lose sleep about your problems.

The SEO company that churns and burns
promises ranks that should make you 100k a year for $200
a month. Do you think they give a rats ass if you leave?
The day they ignored your email they signed 5 new clients.

Again everyone can get all pissy with me saying well they
should not promise what they can't deliver etc...
people should have ethics..

Yes they should! but most don't OR their ethics are relative
to what it costs them to be ethical that day.
This is simple human nature so don't shoot the messenger :-)

You can disagree with gravity if you want to
but its your head that will hit the pavement if you choose to jump.
I'm just warning you about gravity.

THE GOOD NEWS

You can't control them
but you can control yourself!

When you do important deals do them because you have some sort of leverage
and
cover your ass, don't assume someone else will do it for you.

I work with people I have leverage with.
I make sure that people that pay me have leverage with me.
Side Note: People will actually give you more money if they know they
actually matter to you in some real tangible way, not some warm
fuzzy vague way.

It's also one of the reasons I now engage in profit share partnerships
over just selling my services.

I think its fair I get a piece of the pie when I add millions to someones
bottom line and you know what? they think its fair too
and when I used to promise gains like this for a fee that was not relative
to the promised outcome their bullshit radar came out in full force.

For the important stuff I don't do deals with
people that have no real tangible reasons to care.

For the not so important stuff I accept that if
its a hell of a deal then good results
are the exception not the rule and that its on me
to cover my ass.

Hostgator wants to take a week to respond?
No worries I have backups and another cheap host that
I can switch to in 15 minutes.

A major client that owes me 25k and won't pay?
Rest assured I have the leverage to cost him 10 times that.

I decide to drop the ball on a major project?
Rest assured the deal has the clients ass covered in a way
that will cause me to sober up real quick!
#business #cares #poor #results
  • Profile picture of the author digichik
    This is golden information! No MBA program in the US teaches this real world way to do business and get paid.

    Thank You.


    Again, why are the posts with the best information ignored?
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    • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
      Originally Posted by digichik View Post


      Again, why are the posts with the best information ignored?
      My experience shows that my consulting clients don't post or comment on threads.

      Clients like chocolate maker, liquid fertilizer maker,
      coffee roaster, presentation builder to corporates, finance broker for multi story buildings and helicopter fleets, pre-employment screener which has
      big brand clients like Coca Cola...

      So I'm personally not concerned what others do.

      Best,
      Doctor E. Vile
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    • Profile picture of the author savidge4
      Originally Posted by digichik View Post

      This is golden information! No MBA program in the US teaches this real world way to do business and get paid.

      Thank You.

      Again, why are the posts with the best information ignored?

      Far from ignored... we are just to busy taking notes.
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      • Profile picture of the author DABK
        You took the words out of my mouth.

        Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

        Far from ignored... we are just to busy taking notes.
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        • I am not getting this.

          seen this thread 3 times, and still ignorant.

          I did go off in a tangent with Neil Rackham's Spin Selling questions.

          Problem Q's - who cares
          it's the Implication Q's that count - are the effects of the problem, big enough for change

          or as Ewen shows...have they reached their "tipping point" ?

          Is this (peter's "who cares" ) just that Business is a reality they have to deal with???
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          • Profile picture of the author savidge4
            As I personally interpret what Peter has said, poor performance requires swift and unwavering action. If you are asking why has your web guy not answered... Your site got hacked and the host company is not doing anything... Your not getting any results from an SEO contract.... WHO CARES? YOU had better care... but you choose to call Peter and whine about it.

            All of these situations are unbalanced situations in terms of leverage. YOU have the leverage, yet there is the feeling of helplessness, and you allow a boulder to be rolled over you. You should set up another hosing account from your back-up file and move on. You should simply hire a new web guy and move on. You should remove yourself from the existing SEO contract and find another provider.

            Again as I have interpreted this, Peter states there is "Good News". Doing business with and for other business' that have accountability, and leverage that is mutual between both parties, resolves "Who Cares" because both aspects of the business relationship care. ( The Client cares, AND the provider cares )



            Originally Posted by kirbymarketingconcierge View Post

            I am not getting this.

            seen this thread 3 times, and still ignorant.

            I did go off in a tangent with Neil Rackham's Spin Selling questions.

            Problem Q's - who cares
            it's the Implication Q's that count - are the effects of the problem, big enough for change

            or as Ewen shows...have they reached their "tipping point" ?

            Is this (peter's "who cares" ) just that Business is a reality they have to deal with???
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            • Profile picture of the author Peter Lessard
              Nailed it on the head. Also critical to be realistic with what you expect for what you put out. There should be some balance to how important something is to you and how important that something is to your provider. As an example a web site that is the primary driver of leads to a business living on $10 hosting.

              Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

              As I personally interpret what Peter has said, poor performance requires swift and unwavering action. If you are asking why has your web guy not answered... Your site got hacked and the host company is not doing anything... Your not getting any results from an SEO contract.... WHO CARES? YOU had better care... but you choose to call Peter and whine about it.

              All of these situations are unbalanced situations in terms of leverage. YOU have the leverage, yet there is the feeling of helplessness, and you allow a boulder to be rolled over you. You should set up another hosing account from your back-up file and move on. You should simply hire a new web guy and move on. You should remove yourself from the existing SEO contract and find another provider.

              Again as I have interpreted this, Peter states there is "Good News". Doing business with and for other business' that have accountability, and leverage that is mutual between both parties, resolves "Who Cares" because both aspects of the business relationship care. ( The Client cares, AND the provider cares )
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              • Profile picture of the author savidge4
                Originally Posted by Peter Lessard View Post

                Nailed it on the head. Also critical to be realistic with what you expect for what you put out. There should be some balance to how important something is to you and how important that something is to your provider. As an example a web site that is the primary driver of leads to a business living on $10 hosting.
                The only thing $10 hosting is good for.. is development, and even with that it kinda sucks!
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  • Profile picture of the author Oziboomer
    Originally Posted by Peter Lessard View Post

    I work with people I have leverage with.
    I make sure that people that pay me have leverage with me.
    Side Note: People will actually give you more money if they know they
    actually matter to you in some real tangible way, not some warm
    fuzzy vague way.

    It's also one of the reasons I now engage in profit share partnerships
    over just selling my services.

    For the important stuff I don't do deals with
    people that have no real tangible reasons to care.
    Yes..It's about SKIN in the GAME.

    The more experienced in business you get the more you realise that for big deals to happen both parties have to have a financial interest in the outcome.

    A few things here.

    I don't go out prospecting for clients yet I have a few who have found me via referral, their sheer determination to find someone who can really help them or through chatting over dinner at some black tie event.

    Two recent examples for you.

    One client is exactly One hour's drive from me when keeping to the speed limit.

    As part of my services I record and broadcast regular seminars where they have 20-40 attendees in the room and maybe 30 - 70 online depending on how well the promotion has worked or quality of the guests.

    Needless to say I'm always early to set up the tech but...

    A couple of months back, when there was a full house and top shelf guest, there was an almighty pile up on the Highway. I was 3 hours ahead of schedule but that journey took all of 2 hours and 55 minutes.

    When it became apparent that I may not get there I had begun to broadcast via a wireless 4g modem whilst driving and relaying a conversation on hands-free to the live seminar room. I'd got a staff member logged in on chat and even though I arrived outside the building with five minutes to go, I had got my main camera hooked up via firewire and was filming as I entered the room. The live broadcast sold $314500 of which I had a piece of.

    If I was just being paid to show up I doubt it would have happened.

    Apart from the financial incentive I have to maintain my reputation amongst the clients I serve.

    Another example was an employment contract I was signing with a prospective member of staff who was gaining access to Australia under a specific Immigration visa to work for my company.

    They were an ideal candidate with contacts in various companies that my business was seeking to build relationships with.

    Once they had completed their contract of 2 years they could apply for a permanent residence visa so it was valuable to them to partner up with a business who would support them throughout that time.

    In many circumstances this type of visa and employment situation the visa is sold to the applicant and they pay middlemen somewhere between 50 - 110K plus they also pay the employer cash back from their earnings.

    I wasn't into anything that wasn't above board and I was more than happy to pay the going rate for the quality of employee I was getting without them having to be exploited ...but...

    Into the negotiations after I had already invested quite heavily the applicant started to say

    "Oh I just need to cover Such and Such fees from my Lawyer"

    or

    "Could you just lend me $XXXX to pay for medical tests, insurance etc etc."

    I explained "Skin in the game"

    If you can't put some of your's in then we aren't going to move forward.

    They did come to the party but a few months later we parted ways and I should have recognised the signs from their earlier attempts at trying to enter the arrangement 100% risk free.

    Peter has the right idea about having leverage for both parties.

    The people I help do have cash flow issues from time to time as do all businesses so I understand when sometimes they are late with payment and other times they pay some unexpected extra bonus because they just did another $400K that they didn't expect.

    Working inside the analytics and monitoring outcomes you get early warning signs when things are not going right. It keeps you on your toes.

    When you get more intertwined into the client's success and you let them know you have confidence in your ability and confidence in their abilities to work with what you do for them the really big results start to happen.

    You do have to pick your clients well and sometimes be prepared to walk away because you will gain respect and also position yourself better for your next success.
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    • I have noticed I do better work, when I've been paid,

      And, business people are more serious when they have paid something.
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    • Profile picture of the author Peter Lessard
      Originally Posted by Oziboomer View Post

      Yes..It's about SKIN in the GAME.

      The more experienced in business you get the more you realise that for big deals to happen both parties have to have a financial interest in the outcome...
      This is a VERY important point. Your entire response offered some valuable advice I did not quote it all here but I encourage others to read it fully.

      I started a new venture group with a partner. We are accepting no more than 3 clients into it for 2015. Basically we will take companies doing greater than 5 million yearly sales that are largely driven by the web and take them to the next level. No matter what the potential of the profits via equity share/profit share etc... we will absolutely not partner with a company if they do not at the beginning of the deal cut a check that makes their eyes water and its NOT about the money. No skin in the game equals no real commitment. You will not be taken seriously, your calls will not be answered and your "Partnership" means nothing if both parties are not invested. If we are going to pour our resources and time into a deal they must balance the scales and have skin in the game.
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      • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
        Originally Posted by Peter Lessard View Post

        This is a VERY important point. Your entire response offered some valuable advice I did not quote it all here but I encourage others to read it fully.

        I started a new venture group with a partner. We are accepting no more than 3 clients into it for 2015. Basically we will take companies doing greater than 5 million yearly sales that are largely driven by the web and take them to the next level. No matter what the potential of the profits via equity share/profit share etc... we will absolutely not partner with a company if they do not at the beginning of the deal cut a check that makes their eyes water and its NOT about the money. No skin in the game equals no real commitment. You will not be taken seriously, your calls will not be answered and your "Partnership" means nothing if both parties are not invested. If we are going to pour our resources and time into a deal they must balance the scales and have skin in the game.
        Readers must also understand the requirement for an incredible amount of qualifying or screening to find these three clients. To do this, you have to filter through A LOT of people. Most--nearly everyone--you talk to are not going to be a fit.

        Those who are desperate for business will simply not be able to do this.
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        • Profile picture of the author Peter Lessard
          Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

          Readers must also understand the requirement for an incredible amount of qualifying or screening to find these three clients. To do this, you have to filter through A LOT of people. Most--nearly everyone--you talk to are not going to be a fit.

          Those who are desperate for business will simply not be able to do this.
          Very very true, thanks for adding that in. I forget sometimes that the mere mention of a venture can get people suddenly thinking hey I should do that.
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          • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
            Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

            Readers must also understand the requirement for an incredible amount of qualifying or screening to find these three clients. To do this, you have to filter through A LOT of people. Most--nearly everyone--you talk to are not going to be a fit.

            Those who are desperate for business will simply not be able to do this.
            Originally Posted by Peter Lessard View Post

            Very very true, thanks for adding that in. I forget sometimes that the mere mention of a venture can get people suddenly thinking hey I should do that.
            I'll throw it in that there are prospects who might look good for a joint venture, who are not.
            Not sophisticated enough, not ethical enough, not competent enough, not really financially
            as well off as they appear, a history of initiating litigation or arbitration...
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            • Profile picture of the author Peter Lessard
              Originally Posted by bizgrower View Post

              I'll throw it in that there are prospects who might look good for a joint venture, who are not.
              Not sophisticated enough, not ethical enough, not competent enough, not really financially
              as well off as they appear, a history of initiating litigation or arbitration...
              And that brings us back to the point of my post :-)
              and one reason it was on my mind in the first place.
              Make sure you have leverage! and as was later added that they have skin in the game.
              99% of the time if you get into bad situations it's because you allowed them to happen based on emotion, desperation, wanting to believe or just plain by cheap (like not investing in decent services).
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              • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
                Originally Posted by Peter Lessard View Post

                And that brings us back to the point of my post :-)
                and one reason it was on my mind in the first place.
                Make sure you have leverage! and as was later added that they have skin in the game.
                I particularly liked your line that though the commitment check had to be eye-watering for them, it wasn't about the dollar figure.

                Because it isn't.

                Easy In, Easy Out.

                This is the same reason why larger companies won't let a $500 web designer touch their online presence. The designer hasn't made a sufficient commitment to their own marketplace. Their low price reflects that. Skill is irrelevant at this point. The low-priced designer could be the most skilled in the world, but they will have zero credibility with the high level prospect in this situation, because their unconscious positioning is poor.

                But we talk about positioning in this forum and it tends to fly right over the newbies' heads; "Just show me how to make a buck!!"

                A few months back I had a phone conversation with a "branding expert". I like this person and follow her on Facebook. But...in our talk and with her price at the conclusion, she simply didn't convince me that she is operating at the level that she can help me. And then she didn't follow up with the one-page written proposal I requested to clearly define the work. No commitment = no sale.
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                • Profile picture of the author Peter Lessard
                  Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

                  I particularly liked your line that though the commitment check had to be eye-watering for them, it wasn't about the dollar figure.

                  Because it isn't.

                  Easy In, Easy Out.

                  This is the same reason why larger companies won't let a $500 web designer touch their online presence. The designer hasn't made a sufficient commitment to their own marketplace. Their low price reflects that. Skill is irrelevant at this point. The low-priced designer could be the most skilled in the world, but they will have zero credibility with the high level prospect in this situation, because their unconscious positioning is poor.

                  But we talk about positioning in this forum and it tends to fly right over the newbies' heads; "Just show me how to make a buck!!"

                  A few months back I had a phone conversation with a "branding expert". I like this person and follow her on Facebook. But...in our talk and with her price at the conclusion, she simply didn't convince me that she is operating at the level that she can help me. And then she didn't follow up with the one-page written proposal I requested to clearly define the work. No commitment = no sale.
                  On the higher end deals the "price" simply becomes a measure of the resource that needs to be applied for a reasonable chance for success. People that do not understand this scare away clients by presenting themselves as top shelf then quoting basement prices.

                  In the discussions I had so far regarding what some would consider shocking numbers to quote for a retainer the biz owners have not even blinked, the conversation quickly moves on to the more important matters of scalability and how it would all work. Of course these are businesses doing serious numbers for 50 or 100k to them is not a weird number to hear out loud, it just requires due diligence like any spend they manage.

                  With some small business owners that just do not get it I put it to them this way.
                  "Do you have any investments you can recommend to me that 1k in will turn into 250k out?" They laugh and say no. I say "but you want to spend 1k in online marketing and increase your bottom line this year by 250k?" Then I enjoy the deafening silence as their brain processes how absurd this is.
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    Compassioneuring - part of how you can be different.

    Cheap host or web guy that does not care - leave them.
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    Small business owners tend to view things as a personal expense rather than a business expense or investment. And if they are penny pinchers at the personal level, they are likely to be penny wise and pound foolish in business.

    Kind of a bad example to the point: my hotel owner hates spending $200 for new towels because in my reading of his mind, $200 is a lot of money at the personal level. It does not enter his mind that $200 is a very small percent of revenues and that nice towels are a large part of the positive guest experience . Not to mention that enough inventory is very helpful to the housekeepers and laundry personnel.
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    • Profile picture of the author Peter Lessard
      Originally Posted by bizgrower View Post

      Small business owners tend to view things as a personal expense rather than a business expense or investment. And if they are penny pinchers at the personal level, they are likely to be penny wise and pound foolish in business.

      Kind of a bad example to the point: my hotel owner hates spending $200 for new towels because in my reading of his mind, $200 is a lot of money at the personal level. It does not enter his mind that $200 is a very small percent of revenues and that nice towels are a large part of the positive guest experience . Not to mention that enough inventory is very helpful to the housekeepers and laundry personnel.
      Really funny is I know many small business owners that just manage to keep the doors open and they feel like they accomplished something. They proudly exclaim "the reason I am still in business is I know how to cut costs and keep them as low as possible" and they are actually proud of the accomplishment of just barely getting by.

      They don't understand that budget cuts and penny pinching is step 1 of a recovery, step 2 is re-investing for exceptional success. They stay stuck on step 1 forever lol
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      • Profile picture of the author Oziboomer
        Originally Posted by Peter Lessard View Post

        They don't understand that budget cuts and penny pinching is step 1 of a recovery, step 2 is re-investing for exceptional success. They stay stuck on step 1 forever lol
        This did get me thinking.

        Usually the budget cuts and penny pinching often happens when turnover is falling and cost of sales is rising.

        Add in a few outside forces of negative influence and businesses can take a long time to recover. That is if they survived the fall.

        A note on cost saving and this is also linked to re-investing so I'd sort of put them together in one step and that step is always ongoing but it depends on how you run your business.

        This was something I learned when I saved enough money to put a deposit on my first home.

        I'd been at a workshop in the mid nineties on primarily cost saving and investment strategies and this is what came out of it distilled for your enjoyment.

        The trick is "When you save something"... for example negotiate a better phone plan, get a reduction from a supplier, even give up smoking...doesn't matter.

        Deposit the difference into an investment account.

        The next day after I got this enlightenment I negotiated a 10% discount with my two primary suppliers at the time and that immediately equated to a combined saving of about $2k per month. I opened a Cash management account and deposited $400 per week which was about the saving I was making so my real cash in hand really didn't change.

        In under 18 months I had saved $28K for my home deposit.

        In those days home loans were difficult to get for self employed people unlike when the sub-prime debacle came along. I was lucky that I got in before the Aussie housing boom.

        The other thing about this strategy is once you have saved a nest egg you can invest in other things.

        The other point to add to your investment is if your business needs capital for growth you borrow from your own investment and make repayments with commercial rates of interest on the personal loan you just gave your business.

        This usually provides you a higher rate of return than some other investments.

        There are many other tactics and things you can do in business to save money but not investing in future potential and knowledge of how you can change your paradigm ahead of when you are dragged screaming into changing is paramount for success.

        Takeaway here is if a business owner is making savings but not re-investing that in future-proofing their business then they are probably dead in the water.
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