What Do You Guys Do In These Situations?

My golden rule has been if I don't believe it can make them more money than it costs them I don't sell it to them.

I have talked way more people out of giving me money than I have talked into working with me. Funny is if you tell them "I am not taking your money, this isn't for you" they often want to buy it twice as much and you get into a 30 minute discussion on exactly why it won't work lol

Has this lost me money up front? yes.
Have there been occasions when I really needed that payday and it actually caused me pain to do the right thing? yes.

But in the long term I have always earned a nice living selling to only people that needed and benefited from what I sell. I sleep well at night and my interactions with my clients/partners are relatively stress free. How I am perceived by my market has led to a constant flow or referrals and many times the "not a buyer today" turned into a great fit for something else later down the road.

If I know that they are wasting their money, I'll tell them so. Then I'll recommend someone that can really help them.

What I won't do, is change the offer, so I'm delivering something outside my area of expertise.

I turn down about two thirds of my enquirers. This isn't "Positioning". I really do.

I don't want unsatisfied customers. They drain the life out of me. So, I won't accept clients that are "pre-unsatisfied".

Agreed with Peter and Claude. If I don't believe it's going to work, I don't get involved.

The rule is: "You touch it, you own it." So even if you did your job, the client is still going to hold you responsible for the overall failure. It's not worth it.

There's no joy in a reward less job.

When you're working on those jobs you're taking time away from working on the ones that are really matter and there's never been a lack of good jobs around, just harder to find.
You'll most likely lose the client for any future work, even though you're doing him/her a favor, as they don't like to be rejected when they're offering to pay you, but you'll sleep better at night, less worries.
Get up fresh in the morning and go look for the better job! Sometimes...

If you don't lose them, you'll work better together on whatever else may come up.
cheers

I personally would not take the money. I am all for capitalism, but I look at things a little differently. Let's say the failing business wanted to get their website re-designed/or a new website all together for $2,500. Well, you can't buy that from me. It would be part of an overall strategy that would cost much more than $2,500. However, it would grow your business tremdously..... and that is why I stick to my system.
If all the failing business owner wants is a website, I would rather put my time somewhere else. Either I can focus on this one business that will pay me $2,500 or put my focus on a business that will pay me $2,500 a month. Business A will fail within 6 months, and I will have made $2,500. Business B will grow at least 25% in the same 6 months, and I will have made $2,500 for each of those six months. Which has the greater lifetime value?

I will make more by helping a business I can grow, than one that is doomed to fail. In addition, if that business fits into my plan, I would rather see it fail. Then, I can buy it for pennies on the dollar, fix it my way, and exit for a large sum. (I am already doing this.) I bought a business for $20k and will be selling for $200k within 18 months.
Let the failing business buy from some other dime a dozen webdesigners. I will be waiting to cash the business out when they can't pay that webdesigner in 6 months....

So you guys are saying... if Blockbuster contacted you for an ecommerce site to sell DVD's for cheap when they were going to be out of business soon and offered 300K to do it, you wouldn't do it because they were going out of business?

If Freelancer, whose stock has dropped in the past 9 months or so, asked you to help consult them on outreach to local businesses, and the future looked bleak, you wouldn't do it?

I think this talk is silly... Yes I believe in ethics, but if you're hired for a specific thing, why wouldn't you do it even if it didn't solve the bigger problem? Companies still pay for internet even though they may have bigger problems than that.

I am kind of split on this....I have cautioned some potential clients or suggestion another avenue for them, but if they were "determined" yeah you might as well get the money cause the next guy sure will


In the corporate world there is NO question - take the money and run


I worked for an upscale facial and spa equipment manufacturer for several years and sometimes we had salons purchase a ton of equipment that was probably NOT in the budget or taste of their ciientele, or they were in an area with stiff and cheaper competition


Did I tell the excited owner to send back all the equipment, stop the contractors who were installing her thermal sauna and Jacuzzi? etc? Ummm.....no

I'd likely know ahead about their bad rep.

If it stems from something they honestly want to fix - such as a bad manager they finally fired,
I might consider still working with them. But, I'd look at and suggest the logical steps to take
for their turnaround. So, maybe hire me when they reach step three or what have you.

I too have made it part of my qualification process to work with people I want to work with,
who have the budget and competence and ethics, chemistry...

A factor to consider is their word of mouth network reach. Years ago I tried to work for a friend
building a website on the cheap. She wanted to provide all the photos and content herself.
My business partner was an excellent photographer and we had the site design framed out
and ready to go. When it came to photos, she did not have any yet because there was too
much traffic in front of the store, or the light was not right... Since she told many local business
owners about her slow website progress, she inadvertently hurt my local reputation because
she did not explain that she was the delay.

If they were a bad company with a lot of pissed of customers due to their bad ethics or practices, I wouldn't hesitate in taking their money if my company wouldn't be associated with their bad rep.

But, doing it from a decent business, then taking it doesn't make you a ''capitalist''. It makes you a low life piece of shit.

Love all these steadfast answers.

The real truth is, business morals and decisions are on a sliding scale.

Sure you might have some core fundamental lines you wont cross
- lets say "I wont lie" or "I wont steal" as an example.

But the fact is, based on situational awareness, stress, motivation,
lack of sleep or a myriad of other momentary factors, every single
one of you can be flipped into doing the opposite of what your saying here.

If you don't think so - then you don't know yourself as well as you should.

Think of business as a mountain of rock and dirt. Think of your choices
and decisions as a large bucket of water.

You know for a fact when you dump the bucket at the top of the mountain
the water will go down, that's all you really know. You might look ahead of
time and think you know the path the water will take,

but ... you don't.

Every little piece of sand, every rock, divot, stick, hole and unseen obstacle deflects the water.

A bit of the water wont even make it to the bottom, instead it will soak into the dirt or
get stuck behind an object to eventually evaporate. Consider those your
bad ideas that never make it any where.

Consider all the rapid course changes the water makes to get to the bottom
as your business choices.

- lol I am going to stop right here before this analogy turns into a book

And then, just now, I get this email link from Sally Hogsgead:
5 ways your personal brand can go horribly wrong

Quite a bit of arrogance here.

Who are you to say a business WILL fail? Are you a prophet or soothsayer? Are YOU the business jedi master who knows the future? WTF?

You have no idea what this owner is up against. You have no idea how determined they may be.

Maybe they know they have been screwing up and their family is on the brink of starvation and they recently had an epiphany and are trying to turn it around!

Sometimes people don't start getting better until their back is on the wall.

If you believe you are good at what you do, you OWE it to them to take the money, and do your ABSOLUTE BEST to help get them the result they want.

You don't know what is good for them. You have no idea. You aren't in their personal life.

I used to consult businesses on workflow and clientflow processes through a business. Sometimes there are just a few tweaks that can fix everything. You have no idea if they recently brought in someone like me to help, and are fixing things, and that is WHY they are talking you in the first place.

You aren't in the business of judging other business owners futures. You are in the business of creating customers for yourself and delivering the highest service possible.

It is ONLY unethical if you take the money when you can't deliver. If you can do what you say you can do, you have an ethical OBLIGATION to do it for as many people who ask for it.

You don't know the small part you play in the success puzzle. It is entirely possible they will succeed. Sometimes the realization of failure, makes people determined to win.

I've been there myself on more than one occasion. I'm certainly glad all my suppliers, helpers, and contacts didn't refuse to give me service - right when I needed them most!

You could just "Take the money". But, no matter how you slice it there is guilt by association. We have had our own accounts (in the multiples) shut down or frozen simply because we worked for certain a-wipe clients.

After decades of experience with small business owners, it's comical how few of them have any business being in business at all. And they, unfortunately contribute to the failed business number statistics.

We have a blanket statement - "Not For Hire". We don't find out later that they are butt chumps. We carefully vet hand select who we work for.

Be extremely careful out there. Chumpy clients will slice you up into little pieces, blaming you for their every whoa. They will become your worst nightmare. Run like hell.

Well if you are discussing morals, check out the blatant ads that people post on here, the self promotions, the "scratch my back" "reviews" for all these endless "wowser" schemes....


Talk about failure....I tried to contact a few of these "gurus" and found that two, one, and less than one year later their website was gone or neglected, their product unsupported, except for one gentleman who did respond to me. So I guess the others were all failures too

For me,the biggest solution for you and the customer is Be Honest.

I think as a customer,he will give more credit for that, since u save his money from wasteful.

SAVE MONEY is ONE OF ADVERTISER think and BUSINESS Owner want it.

Yerp,the convertion is another part but believe me,HONEST is BETTER for the client.

First off let me say thanks for sparking such an interesting discussion.

You asked "what do you do when you have a customer on the hook who would basically be wasting their money on your service? "

I answered I would not take their money.

You answered "noble but wrong" then a bunch of people chimed in on take the money who do you think you are blah blah blah.

You stated the math says most businesses will fail anyway so take the money.

Well to the math argument I say What AN ABSOLUTE LOAD OF HORSE SHIT!

If I am going to live by that reasoning then,
I did the math. Every guy I know is gonna die anyway so I think I may as well bang their wives.

Every store I know is gonna go bankrupt so screw it may as well shop lift.

You know what, we ain't never gonna beat the drug trade so lets all light up and get our kids in the room to smoke a joint too! Hell lets all opt for some needles and coke and speed up the process.

Like Claude I will assume that the arrogance statement was directed at me :-)
I checked and I am definitely one of the most arrogant mothers you will ever meet.
In reply to the statements regarding the arrogance I will say that its my choice as a person to choose my clients, its one of the reasons I do what I do and within that choice I choose clients I feel I can help profit because its what I BELIEVE IN. Do I know everything? No. But I will act on what I know because that is all we can do as responsible adults.

I also won't bend because I am a little broke this week etc its not a sliding scale for me... If that's how others roll good for them but it should not be assumed of everyone else...

Whooo! Well that was fun, last time I had this good a time I could hear ribs breaking in the ring and they weren't mine.

Again interesting post but frankly I don't let numbers decide my fate. I examine them. I understand them, but I walk a different path. ->> yes the "I walk a different path" line was stolen from some cheesy movie ;-)

P.S Of course when he said arrogance he was referring to you Claude, I just thought I would jump in too ;-)

P.S.S Ever consider that the reason the numbers suggest most businesses will fail is because of this very attitude of lets just take even when we know better? My observation has been that the businesses that don't fail have the best advisers or best bullshit meters.

You guys jumped on the arrogance thing! I have nothing but love and respect for each of you. Seriously.

I'm not saying you should work with every customer every time.

If you don't think the campaign they want will help them - absolutely tell them and don't take the money. I've said here over and over that once money is taken, commitment to making it work for them is paramount. I agree - only take money when you know you can fulfill what the money is for.

If you don't want to work with someone - then absolutely do not do it - things can only go bad.

It seems to me, from the OP quoted above - we are talking about someone who is just bad at business. This person doesn't seem to be a fraud. They just aren't good at business.

And God knows - learning to run any restaurant effectively is a long road. It is a business with an extremely high failure rate. Everyone gets into it thinking it will be easy.

If I walk into a business, and the owner is obviously struggling to keep things going, we shouldn't automatically think "Nope - forget this guy."

He is in front of you saying "Does your postcard campaign bring in customers?" I think it is absolutely wrong to look that person in the eye and say "Yeah - but you are going to fail. Your business is going to fail. And I will not help you."

That's the arrogance I was referring to. I don't think it is arrogant to refuse to work with certain people.

I think it is arrogant to look at someone's business - their very heart and soul and dream - and say "screw you - you will fail." They probably have the house mortgaged and know things aren't going right.

Sure - maybe they are bad at business (weren't we all at one point?) - Sure, maybe they are screwing up right and left. Sure, maybe they will fail.

But we don't know that. For some people, the road is longer than for others. You never know when that persons light came on and they realize they have to make changes. It may have been yesterday.

I've had people tell me I would fail - and I didn't. How do you think I feel about those people today?

Want good feelings? Want positive word of mouth? Try to actually help people who have a need.

If the campaign will not do what it says on the label - then tell them, and absolutely do not take the money.

If they are not the kind of person you want to work with - then just walk away.

But - if it is just a person who is trying to make things work, and they are just executing poorly for whatever reason, and are otherwise a person you'd work with, then yes - take the money. HELP them.

People don't know what they don't know. I believe it is arrogant to look at a person and say "Nah. You are going to fail. You are on your own, pal."

To a client or prospect, I'll of course be polite and politely and tactfully walk away.
But, here I'll be a little coarse. You can't fix stupid (or illegal or immoral or vindictive).
And, I don't want to try to fix stupid (or illegal or immoral or vindictive.) Too much brain
damage and possibly legal, financial, and/or reputation damage.

I fired a musician client and took a loss to pay people I hired. He had enough money
from his day business to sue, he was cheap and rude, his music was not near as good as
he dreamed, and I found out he was suing the big name music marketing firm he had
hired before me (amazingly small world sometimes).

In a previous job, I managed civil disputes resolved via arbitration instead of litigation.
We had a case that had been on file for at least five years in abeyance (on hold) while
the parties pursued the matter in court. (Common tactic to delay arbitration by arguing
parts of the disagreement are not arbitrable, or there is criminality involved.) The dispute
arose out of about a measly $7,000.00 in photographs and printing work. Attorney's
fees and litigation/arbitration costs were much higher.

In a nutshell, one side was a very vindictive, wealthy man who would try to sue people he
had disputes with until they had to file bankruptcy, or gave in. The other side was finally a
financial match for the SOB and decided to stand up to him.

I might be wrong about who my gut tells me I want to work with, but I will follow it and not
think about what I might have missed. And, hopefully leave in a good enough way that they
will call when and if the time is right for us to work together.

As to the moral question, if I do not think my offer is right for them at the time, then it
would be morally incorrect to take their money. Again, I could be wrong, but that is how
I operate.

As a hotel manager, it is a lot different and all I can do is feel bad and do my best, for
the people who try to take a vacation when they really can't afford it. I often know
nothing about them, or don't know enough about them until after they have checked
in and I see the signs of the financial stress.

If they are a walk in or phone in and I have some contact and know they are in an
emergency, or a financially strapped parent wanting to take their kid on a tiny, mini
vacation..., then I may try to help them as much as possible with a pricing deal.
The owner won't let me go below $60 per night anyway. Most times now we are
$30 to $85 above that price. And I do have to consider the experience of the other
guests and try to tactfully turn away people who seem like they might be too rude,
or loud, or otherwise disruptive.

We could become a marijuana friendly hotel and probably really, rake it in, but the owner and I
want to stay in the family friendly market.

Just some more angles on the topic.

Dan

Consulting, offering websites, you get to meet or talk or email and then decide.

Selling WSOs, website hosting, hotel rooms via your website or hotels.com, etc, you don't really get to interact and then decide.

I'd vouch for Bob Ross, Iamnameless and the guy getting slated here as preying on newbies and being full of it.

A couple of newbies slagged him off to you and now you're calling him out on the thread.

Jason's approach is not for everyone, but for those where it is a fit it's been very helpful.

The advice he is giving in his new material is the truth, and complete at odds with this idea he is seeking to fleece clueless newbies.

As you can see for yourself here.


I'm all for frauds and fakes being called out. But Jason Kanigan isn't one of them.

No Junior Warrior has messaged me to complain about Jason K. Ever. So I am a bit confused. Actually more like curious because my grandma used to say; "a guilty conscience needs no accuser."

I think there's a lot more to be learned about others' true motives and intents reading in between the lines.

I've seen support and attacks for various members in different discussions and just don't see the benefit of attacking people's ideas or offers regardless of personal experience or hearsay.

The forum as I see it is a place to discuss ideas and offer constructive criticism, counterpoint and supportive arguments to the OP and that should be everyone's belief if they wish to contribute to discussions.

I'll share something funny about my education that may illustrate a point if there is a point to illustrate.

I had a dear chemistry teacher way back in my Grammar school days.

They were of an English as a second language descent.

There are two things they used to say that still resonate inside me.

Firstly they would say...

"Oziboomer....every time I open my mouth an idiot speaks!"

Secondly they would point their long ruler at me and say...

"Oziboomer...there is an idiot at the end of this ruler"

You're thinking in the right, and it's good you're putting the business owner first.

If you are solely build on one strategy like SEO, website building, etc, then you should tell them your concerns up front. However, most of us are multi-faceted marketers and offer more than one service.

Your job is to solve the business owner's problems. If his reputation sucks, offer his reputation management...set up a portal on his website, begin a clean sweep of his online reviews, create a campaign to change the locals' views.