Old School Vs New School selling.

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I've studied some the best sales training out there lately from people like Brian Tracy's 21st century sales training, Grant Cordone stuff on closing, Jordan Belforts stuff, Mike Brooks scripts and have picked up som truly great things, but the focus is mainly on what happened when you get the customer on the phone or in person to sell to them.

And on the other end, more about the whole game of lead gen, prospecting, getting the right people in the company from Aaron Ross and Brian Kuerzberger, but because they work in corporate circles where a hard-core closer like Grant Cordone would probably have to change his style because they're people who refuse to supplicate to the sale under-pressure like an average individual on a car lot. There isn't a lot on closing, like the others with those two guys.

But one guy who has impressed me most is Jeffey Gitomer, because he's a guy that most talks about the whole process of sales beyond just what happens when you get infront of the person, which is what most of the other teach primary. He teaches how to sell today in today's world without chucking out all the older stuff that still works and is essential. But he's not afraid to adapt to the realities of selling today. Most are stuck in a time warp.

And the advice people get of that kind is going to get them stuck at mediocre, never achieving the astounding success possible. I've even seen people practising Jordan's Belfort's stuff, which is great to teach your closers, and applying it on just cold people who have never heard of them and the sales figures, even by good sales people, are just piss poor. Before the internet, most people would buy of the phone from even companies they'd never heard of simply because they could go online and do due dillegence. But a lot sell like that even today.

I'm not going to sell this guy anymore. I want to share on thing. If lights go on for you, then I've advice checking out his other stuff, because this guy is a master, and can give you a perspective on selling in today's world that I haven't gotten from anyone else. And it's based on reality.

#school #selling
  • Profile picture of the author Freebiequeen1999
    Thanks - some good info there....it is so true that social media has changed many things in this world.

    This guy does not come across like a jerk like some of these so called super salesmen do IMHO
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      I've read Gitomer's Little Red Book Of Selling and The Sales Bible. Good basic marketing advice from a good writer.

      And Gitomer has lots of awards, for speaking, and book sales. He's not a salesman. Maybe he never was. Wikipedia has a nice page on him, but no sales experience listed. I'd love to know his sales experience.

      When I read a sales book, I want to know what the author sold. If you are a speaker...that sells books, it should be based on some serious sales experience. Otherwise, you are just rewriting other people's books.

      But.....at least he isn't teaching something that can't work. And he is a good writer, and speaker.
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      • Profile picture of the author Freebiequeen1999
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        I've read Gitomer's Little Red Book Of Selling and The Sales Bible. Good basic marketing advice from a good writer.

        And Gitomer has lots of awards, for speaking, and book sales. He's not a salesman. Maybe he never was. Wikipedia has a nice page on him, but no sales experience listed. I'd love to know his sales experience.

        When I read a sales book, I want to know what the author sold. If you are a speaker...that sells books, it should be based on some serious sales experience. Otherwise, you are just rewriting other people's books.

        But.....at least he isn't teaching something that can't work. And he is a good writer, and speaker.
        The same due diligence should be used when buying any of this "stuff" IMHO....

        an example....some people are selling a $495 "course" to be a social media manager....yet the big "star" has not updated her own blog for almost a year LOL

        another example....a "power couple" promoting their "done for ya" deal , set you up with a "sales magnet" facebook page, lead pages etc....

        their "star" guy who popped for the ? 500 or 600 package....went to his facebook...he was full of spunk and vinegar and bragging (young thuggy guy LOL>> dreams of rap star success I guess)....but my those dreams seemed to have faded quickly....."follow me and get rich"... "I'll show you the money">> well I guess not...he has not updated in about a year haha

        guess they might want to take the link to their "success story" off their page? LOL
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        • Profile picture of the author joe golfer
          Originally Posted by Freebiequeen1999 View Post

          The same due diligence should be used when buying any of this "stuff" IMHO....

          an example....some people are selling a $495 "course" to be a social media manager....yet the big "star" has not updated her own blog for almost a year LOL

          another example....a "power couple" promoting their "done for ya" deal , set you up with a "sales magnet" facebook page, lead pages etc....

          their "star" guy who popped for the ? 500 or 600 package....went to his facebook...he was full of spunk and vinegar and bragging (young thuggy guy LOL>> dreams of rap star success I guess)....but my those dreams seemed to have faded quickly....."follow me and get rich"... "I'll show you the money">> well I guess not...he has not updated in about a year haha

          guess they might want to take the link to their "success story" off their page? LOL
          Another of my favorite one in this category is the __________ IM power software that everybody is talking about (fill in whatever name is/was hot). The sales page has 79,000 testimonials. Click on the website links of the testimonial-givers and most of the sites are dead. Doh!
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      • Profile picture of the author eccj
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        I've read Gitomer's Little Red Book Of Selling and The Sales Bible. Good basic marketing advice from a good writer.

        And Gitomer has lots of awards, for speaking, and book sales. He's not a salesman. Maybe he never was. Wikipedia has a nice page on him, but no sales experience listed. I'd love to know his sales experience.

        When I read a sales book, I want to know what the author sold. If you are a speaker...that sells books, it should be based on some serious sales experience. Otherwise, you are just rewriting other people's books.

        But.....at least he isn't teaching something that can't work. And he is a good writer, and speaker.
        I think I heard him mentioning selling fabric in NYC in one of his books.

        I can't remember getting anything useful out of his books.
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by eccj View Post

          I think I heard him mentioning selling fabric in NYC in one of his books.

          I can't remember getting anything useful out of his books.

          I should also mention (not necessarily Gitomer) that many speakers talk about sales. It's such a broad evergreen category. Most speakers I hear talking about sales have a very shallow knowledge. They sound good to beginners, but have no advanced experience.

          I know of several Sales Gurus, that have no depth of knowledge at all. But they are still selling $5,000 bootcamps. And people are still buying. And the buyers are satisfied.
          I watch their program (I have a source where we exchange programs), and there is nothing at all. I sit bewildered that people think they are learning.

          Although, they may be really great at selling coaching...which is sales. In fact, I spent three days at a guy's bootcamp (where I was the last speaker). Only one other speaker sold anything at all, meaning they were just terrible at it. I did well. I talked to the Guru afterwards. He really had very little experience in his niche. I was concerned that he was losing money on the even (I want the host to always make money). He laughed and said that the entire event was to condition attendees, over the three days, to sign up for his coaching at $1,500 a month. There were 300 people in attendance. Over 150 signed up. That's $225,000 a month.

          But the three days were orchestrated to sell coaching,and nothing else. Everything else was window dressing. If this guy would have written a book about how to sell his niche service, it would be barely average. But he could sure sell coaching.

          Not me. For three days, I watched everyone cry with every speaker. At every dinner, people cried multiple times. This guy was bonded with the group. And every bit of it was real. He was completely genuine. And it was/is exactly like a well run cult.
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          • Profile picture of the author eccj
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            I should also mention (not necessarily Gitomer) that many speakers talk about sales. It's such a broad evergreen category. Most speakers I hear talking about sales have a very shallow knowledge. They sound good to beginners, but have no advanced experience.

            I know of several Sales Gurus, that have no depth of knowledge at all. But they are still selling $5,000 bootcamps. And people are still buying. And the buyers are satisfied.
            I watch their program (I have a source where we exchange programs), and there is nothing at all. I sit bewildered that people think they are learning.

            Although, they may be really great at selling coaching...which is sales. In fact, I spent three days at a guy's bootcamp (where I was the last speaker). Only one other speaker sold anything at all, meaning they were just terrible at it. I did well. I talked to the Guru afterwards. He really had very little experience in his niche. I was concerned that he was losing money on the even (I want the host to always make money). He laughed and said that the entire event was to condition attendees, over the three days, to sign up for his coaching at $1,500 a month. There were 300 people in attendance. Over 150 signed up. That's $225,000 a month.

            But the thee days were orchestrated to sell coaching,and nothing else. Everything else was window dressing. If this guy would have written a book about how to sell his niche service, it would be barely average. But he could sure sell coaching.

            Not me. For three days, I watched everyone cry with every speaker. At every dinner, people cried multiple times. This guy was bonded with the group. And every bit of it was real. He was completely genuine. And it was/is exactly like a well run cult.
            I think I said this in another but.... these people aren't teaching us they are selling us and the easiest person to sell is a salesman.

            It's the same thing with all these allstar IM. All they market is marketing. then they use themselves as examples of how to build a list or something like that. People love signing up for lists about IM or sales, not so much about insurance or something else that isn't sexy.
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            • Profile picture of the author savidge4
              Old school vs New school. when you really get right down to it, the only difference is the media used to reach you customers. I want to say its @Joe Golfer that shares great ad pieces from the 60's and 70's Your basic Headlines, Testimonials, Value Points and a Call To Action. A nice little graphic there.. its all the same but 1 thing... the call to action in those cases is a cut out coupon that is sent in the mail. Today... its a form on a website.

              I am not even sure the phrase "The more things change, the more the stay the same" applies in this case... cuz nothing has changed at all, other than the form of delivery. And the fact is Print ads still look the same.

              The only thing that REALLY may be different between the 2 era's? the Old school stuff... its crafted.. its way smoother... The headlines... MY GOD. Think about this for a moment... in todays world we worry about the friction to click a button... back then? cut an ad, get an envelope, address it, get a stamp, and get it in the mailbox... just crazy! AND THEN.. wait 6 to 8 weeks to get a response - LOL that would KILL a millennial in their tracks - instantly even!
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  • Profile picture of the author Underground
    So not having a history of selling pots and pans door to door somewhere or used cars, means he's a fraud.

    There's some videos about where he talks about sale with a company selling training and the deal was worth a million.

    The guy has sold five million worth of books, has a huge following, work with major companies around the world training their teams.

    It's incredible to try to claim the guy is just some nobody regurgitating other people's advice. To get where he is don't you need to be able to see yourself, your ideas, products and services?

    I know he's criticised Glengarry Glenross and that whole macho old schools sales things which would offend some people who think selling is this specific set thing confined to obtaining a one of transaction from someone.

    I like Gitomer's concept of it in the vid. It's about being able to get your thoughts and ideas out there to people in a compelling way.

    Shake my head sometimes.
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  • Profile picture of the author Underground
    Claude, you're trying to do what this guy did. Personally brand yourself, create info products, get out there as a speaker, use social media and youtube. You're actually a practitioner. Is that not selling to you?


    This guy is far more successful than you, and you knock him. Why?

    So now me trying to steer people to a good resource, who teaches an approach to their careers in business that is solid, that is based way more than on just 'making the sale', but a way of doing selling that goes beyond that, kind of like the philosophical aspects of Harry Brown, as well though, techniques and concrete things that work.


    We've butted heads before on this forum. I know your outlook. I know it's different to mine. I know you criticism is often point my way indirectly as one of the people who are afraid to sell, am always messing with my website or branding, foolish for not going for the 'one call close' and wasting time taking more than one touch, everything that's anathema to you because it not ideal selling vacuum cleaners.

    But I'm foolish or clueless. I've done my fair share or door to door selling for companies and for my own.

    Jeffrey Gitomer's a highly successful trainer. I don't recommend him lightly as some wet behind the ears newbie. But in this day and age a door to door sales man or a cold caller are like Jehovers witnesses, people hate them. And the close rates are very poor, and some of the lowest you can get.

    And things have advanced. But many here are still getting taught the same old BS.
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    • Profile picture of the author tryinhere
      Originally Posted by Underground View Post

      But many here are still getting taught the same old BS.
      During a lifetime in the sales game you will probably be presented with 101 people all professing to be the best at what they do, and thought shall follow my path to riches.

      The key is not really to follow one but to be open and to take in as much as you can from those people who inspire you and from that mold your own best plan of attack and that will be different for each and every person.

      The people one chooses to follow may not be the same as another and really there is no right or wrong in any method given that people can gain measurable / positive results.
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      • Profile picture of the author Underground
        Originally Posted by tryinhere View Post

        During a lifetime in the sales game you will probably be presented with 101 people all professing to be the best at what they do, and thought shall follow my path to riches.

        The key is not really to follow one but to be open and to take in as much as you can from those people who inspire you and from that mold your own best plan of attack and that will be different for each and every person.

        The people one chooses to follow may not be the same as another and really there is no right or wrong in any method given that people can gain measurable / positive results.

        I not advising people to 'follow anyone'. I'm think they owe it to themselves to always continue learning from as many different sources as possible and be able to adapt when necessary ad challenge their outmoded beliefs, yes.

        But I already said why I found him useful, and it's not just based on this video, but his approach and how I personally thought after studying and applying many methods from great trainers and sales people, that this is the best guy I've seen out of all of them that teaches the essence that underpins and is at the root of all things. Getting loyal customers who are stay with you over the long-term and refer you. Not that my opinion matters, but the reason. That is, if anyone else was looking for some good advice that bridges all the different approaches and philosophies and applies today, and are tired of used car salesmen tactics that repulse most people today as closing rates from people using them suggest, the might want to check him out

        If others watched it, and the lights go on for them about what the real name of the game is and its a whole approach, not just tactics or scripts or context specific methods, then that's fine.

        I'm not asking anyone to hero-worship anyone. But if they can check him out further and see the truth in what he's saying so they benefit too, then great.
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        • Profile picture of the author Oziboomer
          Originally Posted by Underground View Post

          I not advising people to 'follow anyone'. I'm think they owe it to themselves to always continue learning from as many different sources as possible...

          ...If others watched it, and the lights go on for them...
          I'll check it out...

          ...but I get where Claude is coming from in regards to actual experience "shoulder to the wheel" type experience.

          Some of the best understanding I've got over the years is being on the receiving end of salesman's pitches over an extended period of time.

          One thing all the old timers...and I don't mean OLD here...I mean experienced...

          ...have taught me is mostly about rapport and the ability to build an instant relationship with a client whether that be on a first visit or on repeated visits.

          One super successful sales guy started out doing door to door video tape sales back in the day....he was actually an "almost"...don't want to offend if he reads this..."illegal" worker and needed to just make cash to survive day to day.

          Another started out as a receptionist but learnt that art of rapport building on the phone...she is now a killer sales person who I wish I had on my team.

          Another was an avid cyclist always riding with lawyers, barristers, doctors etc who were all earning less that him because he knew the art of selling...he always complained to me how they could always get the latest cycling gear but he was riding on top shelf stuff himself....

          ...he knew a secret about the "value of time" and how precious it was to people....particularly the circles he moved in.

          I still learn from him every month when we catch up.

          Another great was, the now almost retired, Claudia who always carried herself like Royalty. She knew the power of positioning and using empathy to cuddle you gently towards handing over your hard earned.

          Over the years you come to understand that you only really give your money to people who you like in some way and they must also have the ideal solution to what you need right now.

          Sometimes you may not warm to the salesperson but if they can convey enough benefits to you so that you feel the deal will be beneficial to you then you will transact.

          There are many examples...even anecdotes, of new sales people achieving great outcomes but what I've come to notice is in each of these cases is the sales person has achieved a high level of rapport with the client so their success is greater than average.

          In some circumstances this may be luck....

          ...but...

          ....experience teaches you how to enter that lucky space more often and you don't need to think about it because you just know what to do and how to respond to whatever situation you are presented with.

          That is why theory is just that.... "Theory"

          Real results come through application and repetition.

          I'm not saying there is a formula...even though there are formulas for success....

          What I'm saying is no amount of theory will beat experience when it comes to actual results over an extended period of time otherwise we'd just employ 16 year olds and give them two weeks training.
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          • Profile picture of the author Underground
            Originally Posted by Oziboomer View Post

            I'll check it out...

            ...but I get where Claude is coming from in regards to actual experience "shoulder to the wheel" type experience.

            Some of the best understanding I've got over the years is being on the receiving end of salesman's pitches over an extended period of time.

            One thing all the old timers...and I don't mean OLD here...I mean experienced...

            ...have taught me is mostly about rapport and the ability to build an instant relationship with a client whether that be on a first visit or on repeated visits.

            One super successful sales guy started out doing door to door video tape sales back in the day....he was actually an "almost"...don't want to offend if he reads this..."illegal" worker and needed to just make cash to survive day to day.

            Another started out as a receptionist but learnt that art of rapport building on the phone...she is now a killer sales person who I wish I had on my team.

            Another was an avid cyclist always riding with lawyers, barristers, doctors etc who were all earning less that him because he knew the art of selling...he always complained to me how they could always get the latest cycling gear but he was riding on top shelf stuff himself....

            ...he knew a secret about the "value of time" and how precious it was to people....particularly the circles he moved in.

            I still learn from him every month when we catch up.

            Another great was, the now almost retired, Claudia who always carried herself like Royalty. She knew the power of positioning and using empathy to cuddle you gently towards handing over your hard earned.

            Over the years you come to understand that you only really give your money to people who you like in some way and they must also have the ideal solution to what you need right now.

            Sometimes you may not warm to the salesperson but if they can convey enough benefits to you so that you feel the deal will be beneficial to you then you will transact.

            There are many examples...even anecdotes, of new sales people achieving great outcomes but what I've come to notice is in each of these cases is the sales person has achieved a high level of rapport with the client so their success is greater than average.

            In some circumstances this may be luck....

            ...but...

            ....experience teaches you how to enter that lucky space more often and you don't need to think about it because you just know what to do and how to respond to whatever situation you are presented with.

            That is why theory is just that.... "Theory"

            Real results come through application and repetition.

            I'm not saying there is a formula...even though there are formulas for success....

            What I'm saying is no amount of theory will beat experience when it comes to actual results over an extended period of time otherwise we'd just employ 16 year olds and give them two weeks training.
            I agree with that completely. And the part about not being an obnoxious person in your sales career so you can build ongoing relationships and someone want to do business with again rather than just a dreaded sales man they can't wait to get rid is why I shared this guys stuff. Most aren't teaching rapport like this guy. Rapport as in not being a dick and trying to game people for a quick sale. But the rapport you mention.

            How these people's great personalities went above and beyond techniques.

            I understand both yours and Claude's arguments about theory, but here I think they are flawed, or a case where someone with a keen understanding of people and a great ability to connect with people has started a business where he happened to get his direct experience from starting that business in 1988 and then getting to 2015 intact, selling in the big league, a well respected figure.

            For me, I take the view of replicating success. Replicating the success of people who have attained real accomplishment , who have the values you want exemplify etc. For whether they started at the bottom and went through the grind every person new to a sales job goes through is negligible in a case where a guy who started a business 30 years ago and is teaching skills based on what he learned in making that a success and a guy who is still dedicated and at the top of him game and living and practicing what he preaches right there for all to see.

            The important part, and something I look for in everyone, is do they practice what they preach. In Jeffrey's case yes.

            He used the very techniques he teaches in his free stuff, to run and grow his business today and stay relevant and current. To sell his products and services and be real success in the world.

            If he wasn't I wouldn't have shared the guy. The man gets even more respect for me if he got his start in sales selling info courses and products to corporates for big money.

            Nothing noble or respectable to me about sales people who used their skills over a life time to sell low priced junk when they could have made a fortune with better product development, effort and thought.

            If you did business with his company or acting like potential customer, I'm sure he be about what he teaches.

            I hired any of the people you mentioned who can connect with people and build trust, credibility, liking then someone devoid of humanity who had great scripts and just would take no for an answer.I'm sure many people would.

            The content of the video, about how we don't live in the dark, how we can use social media to our advantage to do a lot of the selling and credibility building, is really great, an something many don't equate with sales. And again, something the guy teaching these things, excels at.

            I guess I've just seen a style of sales on this forum over the years that is lowest common dominator. The hard way. The goal just to get some person to buy something. And not much that differs all that much, and wanted to post that for anyone who's disillusioned with that and seeks a better way to do business without being sleazy.
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            • Profile picture of the author eccj
              Originally Posted by Underground View Post

              I agree with that completely. And the part about not being an obnoxious person in your sales career so you can build ongoing relationships and someone want to do business with again rather than just a dreaded sales man they can't wait to get rid is why I shared this guys stuff. Most aren't teaching rapport like this guy. Rapport as in not being a dick and trying to game people for a quick sale. But the rapport you mention.

              How these people's great personalities went above and beyond techniques.

              I understand both yours and Claude's arguments about theory, but here I think they are flawed, or a case where someone with a keen understanding of people and a great ability to connect with people has started a business where he happened to get his direct experience from starting that business in 1988 and then getting to 2015 intact, selling in the big league, a well respected figure.

              For me, I take the view of replicating success. Replicating the success of people who have attained real accomplishment , who have the values you want exemplify etc. For whether they started at the bottom and went through the grind every person new to a sales job goes through is negligible in a case where a guy who started a business 30 years ago and is teaching skills based on what he learned in making that a success and a guy who is still dedicated and at the top of him game and living and practicing what he preaches right there for all to see.

              The important part, and something I look for in everyone, is do they practice what they preach. In Jeffrey's case yes.

              He used the very techniques he teaches in his free stuff, to run and grow his business today and stay relevant and current. To sell his products and services and be real success in the world.

              If he wasn't I wouldn't have shared the guy. The man gets even more respect for me if he got his start in sales selling info courses and products to corporates for big money.

              Nothing noble or respectable to me about sales people who used their skills over a life time to sell low priced junk when they could have made a fortune with better product development, effort and thought.

              If you did business with his company or acting like potential customer, I'm sure he be about what he teaches.

              I hired any of the people you mentioned who can connect with people and build trust, credibility, liking then someone devoid of humanity who had great scripts and just would take no for an answer.I'm sure many people would.

              The content of the video, about how we don't live in the dark, how we can use social media to our advantage to do a lot of the selling and credibility building, is really great, an something many don't equate with sales. And again, something the guy teaching these things, excels at.

              I guess I've just seen a style of sales on this forum over the years that is lowest common dominator. The hard way. The goal just to get some person to buy something. And not much that differs all that much, and wanted to post that for anyone who's disillusioned with that and seeks a better way to do business without being sleazy.
              Like I said earlier... they are selling us and obviously Gitomer has sold you.

              He is fine for what he is...... a very basic sales trainer for newbies. Nothing wrong with that.

              The way he and almost all trainers, other than Cardone, bash the boogy man of "old school sales" sells people like you in droves. The imaginary Glenn Gary Glenn Ross people out there of yesteryear that are so awful. It's like selling crack to a crack head.

              Did you read the Harry Brown book that was talked about on here last week? In that book he talks about old sales techniques and that book was written in the 60's!

              The way you went after Claude for daring to raise an issue, a slight issue said in a calm manner, with Gitomer shows your own a cult member mentality.

              Gitomer is good at what he does.... But I and many others like me that have been at sales for more than a couple years want to get good at what we do. And we don't sell "training" but real products and services. Things that people need. And I and others like me believe and know that the best books to read to learn how to better sell those products and services are those that are written by people that have actually sold products and services other than false dreams.
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              • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                Originally Posted by eccj View Post

                The way he and almost all trainers, other than Cardone, bash the boogy man of "old school sales" sells people like you in droves. The imaginary Glenn Gary Glenn Ross people out there of yesteryear that are so awful. It's like selling crack to a crack head.
                I have to agree. The "old sales techniques" are pretty much a straw man argument. Although I have seen a few sales presentations that were written by people that simply used cliche after cliche in their presentation. It was decades ago.

                I think most sales trainers talk about "old school sales methods". But they talk about it like they invented good customer service and a good attitude. The old methods they talk about, are at least 40-50 years old. And even then, most didn't use them. Trainers use the "old school" as something to sell against. But it mostly doesn't exist any more.

                The closest I've seen in modern times is Jordan Belfort's phone selling. But it's highly effective.

                The reason I hate movies like Glen Gary Glenn Ross, Death Of A Salesman, and Tin Men..is that they show the lowest possible form of selling, and the lowest form of salesman. They're mostly fantasies. They show what it's like to be a salesman, the same way Frankenstein shows what it's like to be a doctor.

                And this isn't an either/or argument. It isn't Great product VS Great technique. I always assume a great product. But a salesperson skilled in technique will always outsell the other salespeople, assuming they all work as hard.

                Would you want to go to a doctor that hasn't studies "medical techniques" for several years?
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              • Profile picture of the author Underground
                Originally Posted by eccj View Post

                Like I said earlier... they are selling us and obviously Gitomer has sold you.

                He is fine for what he is...... a very basic sales trainer for newbies. Nothing wrong with that.

                The way he and almost all trainers, other than Cardone, bash the boogy man of "old school sales" sells people like you in droves. The imaginary Glenn Gary Glenn Ross people out there of yesteryear that are so awful. It's like selling crack to a crack head.

                Did you read the Harry Brown book that was talked about on here last week? In that book he talks about old sales techniques and that book was written in the 60's!

                The way you went after Claude for daring to raise an issue, a slight issue said in a calm manner, with Gitomer shows your own a cult member mentality.

                Gitomer is good at what he does.... But I and many others like me that have been at sales for more than a couple years want to get good at what we do. And we don't sell "training" but real products and services. Things that people need. And I and others like me believe and know that the best books to read to learn how to better sell those products and services are those that are written by people that have actually sold products and services other than false dreams.


                Ridiculous drivel. Cardone said he went and changed that industry by introducing Info-based selling. It needed changing.

                Quit being such a moron. About cult this and cult that. He didn't sell me anything. I thought the fact that he's using all the things he teaches to sell millions testified to the fact you don't need to be a pumped up droid when selling.

                You can be normal, likeable and still be successful.
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                • Profile picture of the author eccj
                  Originally Posted by Underground View Post

                  Ridiculous drivel. Cardone said he went and changed that industry by introducing Info-based selling. It needed changing.

                  Quit being such a moron. About cult this and cult that. He didn't sell me anything. I thought the fact that he's using all the things he teaches to sell millions testified to the fact you don't need to be a pumped up droid when selling.

                  You can be normal, likeable and still be successful.
                  Maybe one day you can write a book about how to be successful while not being like-able.

                  You seriously think Cardone invented info based selling? Well he didn't. Selling off of info has been around forever. I would say it is the most basic form of selling.

                  A higher form of selling is needs based or motivation based selling. Anyone can regurgitate a bunch of info but many people can uncover a motivation or a need the prospect wasn't even aware he had.

                  I like Cardone's system for a car dealership. It's nice because it gets people in and out real quick. It's great for a consumer product but not great for a b2b product or for a product people would rather not buy.

                  Cardone is fine, Gitomer is fine. I am not a hater.

                  The only hater here is you. You have a serious problem with projecting: projecting you own faults onto others and others successes onto yourself.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Underground
                    Originally Posted by eccj View Post

                    Maybe one day you can write a book about how to be successful while not being like-able.

                    You seriously think Cardone invented info based selling? Well he didn't. Selling off of info has been around forever. I would say it is the most basic form of selling.

                    A higher form of selling is needs based or motivation based selling. Anyone can regurgitate a bunch of info but many people can uncover a motivation or a need the prospect wasn't even aware he had.

                    I like Cardone's system for a car dealership. It's nice because it gets people in and out real quick. It's great for a consumer product but not great for a b2b product or for a product people would rather not buy.

                    Cardone is fine, Gitomer is fine. I am not a hater.

                    The only hater here is you. You have a serious problem with projecting: projecting you own faults onto others and others successes onto yourself.
                    Look, the last thing I need is some pointless, ridiculous attack from a forum screwball over nothing in particular.


                    There's some right unhinged people on the place. Successful people get torn down and those sharing ideas from proven to work in 2015 get hounded with nonsense like this that makes no intelligent, rational, worthwhile points?

                    Kids stuff.


                    Just a pointless ad hom attack from someone with no real argument. Find someone else.
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                    • Profile picture of the author eccj
                      Originally Posted by Underground View Post

                      Look, the last thing I need is some pointless, ridiculous attack from a forum screwball over nothing in particular.


                      There's some right unhinged people on the place. Successful people get torn down and those sharing ideas from proven to work in 2015 get hounded with nonsense like this that makes no intelligent, rational, worthwhile points?

                      Kids stuff.


                      Just a pointless ad hom attack from someone with no real argument. Find someone else.
                      Like I said... you have a serious problem with projecting.

                      You don't know what ad hom means.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Underground
                        Originally Posted by eccj View Post

                        Like I said... you have a serious problem with projecting.

                        You don't know what ad hom means.
                        You've come and done nothing but personally attack me and personally attack Jeffrey Gitomer.

                        You've refused to even acknowledge and of the reasons, or give a reasoned counter-argument for them.


                        I'll tell you now, with absolutely certainty, you're a low baller in what you sell, who you offer it too and prices, and cold calling right now is your only options to make things work.

                        That's the hardest work and lowest return. I know everyone has to start there and continue doing it. But you don't even know there's way to sell beyond that. People coming to you. Seeing your brand everywhere. Leveraging yourself.


                        That's why what this guy is saying is not resonating with you.

                        I'm not trying to talk down. I'll need to hustle as if my life depended on in the next few months. I'll be aiming at big brands and well companies and well known public figures. I need an approach like the one outlined above.

                        Not one for the person selling £500 commodity services. I know your still there. And why the approach outlined in this thread just does not strike a cord with you and why you think your justified in coming on spouting of nonsense nothing but personal attacks.

                        Try the normal two bit scripts most people use on mom and pops on people in important companies where doing business with you or referring their clients to you for an ad campaign could severe harm their career advancement and see where you get. Ring them up out of the blue when they've never heard you and when they check you out see some embarrassing website you've made yourself, 1 post on social media, no presence in the market and see where you get.
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          • Profile picture of the author dreamer123
            Originally Posted by Oziboomer View Post

            I'll check it out...

            ...but I get where Claude is coming from in regards to actual experience "shoulder to the wheel" type experience.

            Some of the best understanding I've got over the years is being on the receiving end of salesman's pitches over an extended period of time.

            One thing all the old timers...and I don't mean OLD here...I mean experienced...

            ...have taught me is mostly about rapport and the ability to build an instant relationship with a client whether that be on a first visit or on repeated visits.

            One super successful sales guy started out doing door to door video tape sales back in the day....he was actually an "almost"...don't want to offend if he reads this..."illegal" worker and needed to just make cash to survive day to day.

            Another started out as a receptionist but learnt that art of rapport building on the phone...she is now a killer sales person who I wish I had on my team.

            Another was an avid cyclist always riding with lawyers, barristers, doctors etc who were all earning less that him because he knew the art of selling...he always complained to me how they could always get the latest cycling gear but he was riding on top shelf stuff himself....

            ...he knew a secret about the "value of time" and how precious it was to people....particularly the circles he moved in.

            I still learn from him every month when we catch up.

            Another great was, the now almost retired, Claudia who always carried herself like Royalty. She knew the power of positioning and using empathy to cuddle you gently towards handing over your hard earned.

            Over the years you come to understand that you only really give your money to people who you like in some way and they must also have the ideal solution to what you need right now.

            Sometimes you may not warm to the salesperson but if they can convey enough benefits to you so that you feel the deal will be beneficial to you then you will transact.

            There are many examples...even anecdotes, of new sales people achieving great outcomes but what I've come to notice is in each of these cases is the sales person has achieved a high level of rapport with the client so their success is greater than average.

            In some circumstances this may be luck....

            ...but...

            ....experience teaches you how to enter that lucky space more often and you don't need to think about it because you just know what to do and how to respond to whatever situation you are presented with.

            That is why theory is just that.... "Theory"

            Real results come through application and repetition.

            I'm not saying there is a formula...even though there are formulas for success....

            What I'm saying is no amount of theory will beat experience when it comes to actual results over an extended period of time otherwise we'd just employ 16 year olds and give them two weeks training.
            Thanks for your interesting and informative post what are some great ways to build rapport that you have come across?
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            • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
              Originally Posted by dreamer123 View Post

              Thanks for your interesting and informative post what are some great ways to build rapport that you have come across?
              Questions. Questions while mirroring is even better still.

              Imho, there is no other way that creates rapport faster or better.

              - the only caveat; The questions have to be genuine and not rapid fire.
              Just remember, it's a conversation ... not an interrogation.
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            • Profile picture of the author Matthew North
              Originally Posted by dreamer123 View Post

              Thanks for your interesting and informative post what are some great ways to build rapport that you have come across?
              Relaxing the person and listening. Most importantly you want to be calm yourself, if you are nervous or scared that is the surest way to break rapport. You will make the other person nervous as well, then they will think that there's something wrong and direct that feeling towards you and the process of buying. Not good.
              Signature

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            • Profile picture of the author Oziboomer
              Originally Posted by dreamer123 View Post

              Thanks for your interesting and informative post what are some great ways to build rapport that you have come across?
              Ken has the right idea here...

              Questions. Questions while mirroring is even better still.

              Imho, there is no other way that creates rapport faster or better.

              - the only caveat; The questions have to be genuine and not rapid fire.
              Just remember, it's a conversation ... not an interrogation.
              I'll give you a few examples from just today having come back after a holiday weekend and we are in the middle of a school holiday period.

              From a retail point of view in Australia at the moment times are tough with a lot of negative press and talk of a downturn so I'm paying extra attention to "on the floor" selling to any prospects that might come my way.

              Nearly all of my "selling techniques" are based around establishing rapport with new clients first before even looking at their problem or the solution I may have for their problem.

              I always try to create an open loop type suggestion when I'm first greeting and assessing their needs.

              From a retail point of view I sell custom made picture frames...but I also sell many commodities, coaching, training, DIY supplies etc....so assessing which bracket the prospect or client fits into is pretty important early on prior to investment in my time to provide a full consultation.

              Usually people bring something in to me to be framed and then we guide them through the process.

              Anyway...open loop...something like..."Oh wow that's nice..I have just the right frame and some great ideas I'd like to show you...let me just grab a few things."...more on this later...

              Then I will make immediate conversation about whatever I read the situation to be like.

              So here is today...

              First interaction is a client just back from a cruise with a painting they bought and needed some rectification (male 60 yrs)...just knows exactly what they need so only need to satisfy outcome and recognise his good taste in art and suggest quick solution...paid...done.

              Next ...with all sales assistants busy serving various people I could see a very relaxed lady who brought one quality antique image already framed but in need of attention and another rolled image I couldn't see....

              ...she recognised we were busy and so left her items and politely said "I'll be back in two hours"

              next young mum with two kids...obviously on school holidays....clutching LARGE damaged religious picture....

              it was obvious she treasured the icon and wanted to protect the work and prevent further damage....

              This is where I spent time on rapport building with asking about the significance of the image and the religious beliefs that she had....now most people would say "Don't discuss politics or religion"

              I discussed her her beliefs and the importance of this picture.

              She shared that she had to remove the frame when she left her country and could only bring a few meagre items when she came to Australia.

              This picture had extreme significance to her and so I took the time to fully engage the children and her in a meaningful selection of solutions that would best meet her ideal outcome and respect her financial position having a young family and being an immigrant.

              She did not immediately proceed with the job but she will because I gave her an experience she will not get anywhere from my competitors and she has already committed to the solution but does need to gain the financial approval from her partner. She has had all the payment options available explained to her and I will follow up via phone tomorrow)

              I always share something PERSONAL about myself...maybe a weakness....maybe a strength...a family story and I usually relate that to what I am presented with during our first contact.

              So with the two hour later lady, who was already a client of ours, but I hadn't met before or served in the past....

              I straight away entered a conversation with her about the first antique image...an etching that was a taken from a study of a painting in the Victoria and Albert Museum in London....

              ...great...I lived in London once....here we go...

              Start talking about how I lived in London and how I used to enjoy visiting the galleries there...but I had such a shock when I came back to Australia....

              She then shared how here family emigrated and how this picture was in the family for so many years....and so on...

              The second picture was a Chinese produced Parisian Oil mass produced for the tourist market....but...her daughter's boyfriend who lives in London had given it to the daughter and was now coming to visit....

              More rapport building discussing my own kids long distance relationships and how one of my very talented kids...a qualified with first class honours medical engineer had spent the last 5 months bumming around the world and is now working in US Virgin Islands with her US boyfriend.

              You wouldn't want to spend money on framing the cheap work but this was now about impressing the "future son-in-law" and about showing him how "well off" the family was in Australia.....so we had the green light for "Top Shelf" framing.

              Now about the Open Loop ...or even a bit like a technique in Oren Klaff's "Pitch Anything" I will tend to grab a few samples and even some colours or designs and...

              ...deliberately and carefully place them "Face Down" usually just out of reach of the client....

              ...and I'll say "I'd like you to see these in a minute"....

              ...anyway..."tell me why you've decided to visit me today?"

              Whatever they tell you.....

              You listen and reply with a mirroring type response...

              You are always TRUTHFUL.

              If they say they just came back from Italy....you talk to them about your brother's visit to Italy (FACT)...or the Orthodontist that used to be near my old shop 14 years ago how he retired in Tuscany.....or the client who just came in yesterday who just got back from Peru....

              ....it doesn't matter....but it does....to get them talking about their experiences and then you share yours.

              Sooner or later you will get to solving their problem but you should somewhat allow them to express the urgency in getting to this part of the process as usually the more they have affinity with you before you show them the solution the more likely they will trust your opinion and offer less resistance to improving and maximising the outcome so both parties get the greatest value from the encounter.

              I'm fortunate to have products that range in price from modest to "eye watering"

              I have ample opportunity to show clients extreme solutions that can be positioned as "something people fly from Dubai to purchase"...or "something every bride desires...if they were only married to a prince"...etc.

              Because I sell luxury products there is always something that will meet most buyers desires...not always at the price they want...but I'm quite prepared to take away premium options when confronted with price shoppers.

              Most visitors realise I'm not about pushing people into a sale even though I do from time to time use a variety of techniques to close some sales.

              I'm much more in the lifetime value business where clients will return year after year and refer all their family and friends who will usually already come in expecting to start a relationship and share their experiences.

              To quote Claude

              Added later;
              I've met great salespeople. The one's I'm talking about. They exist. I've bought from them. It was effortless, fun, a real pleasure. They aren't the norm. Certainly less than one in a hundred. But they exist. And I'm one of them. And there are a few others here that are like that as well.
              It is such a pleasure when you find great salespeople...even if they may just be a waiter in a restaurant...or someone who sells mundane things...when they have a passion and you receive that passion through the sales process you become rewarded far more than the price you pay for the product you purchase....

              ...that's why you become a repeat customer and are much more likely to refer other future clients.
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    • Profile picture of the author qu4rk
      Originally Posted by Underground View Post

      Claude, you're trying to do what this guy did. Personally brand yourself, create info products, get out there as a speaker, use social media and youtube. You're actually a practitioner. Is that not selling to you?

      This guy is far more successful than you, and you knock him. Why?
      This is exactly what I thought when I first read Claude's response. It sounded like Claude was drinking some serious haterade. I have 3 of Claude's books & 2 of JG's. So, I'm a fan of both.

      But then, then it dawned on me that Claude is actually displaying an Alpha tendency that it takes to get to JG's level. You have to think you're the best before you make it there. You have to see where the "successful" people are putting out what you think is garbage, so that you can be the clean up man/woman.

      So, it's actually good to see Claude calling out someone who has a "proven track record". What top sales person doesn't think they are the best?
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Underground in Bold, me not.
      Claude, you're trying to do what this guy did. Personally brand yourself, create info products, get out there as a speaker, use social media and youtube. You're actually a practitioner. Is that not selling to you?

      First, I suppose I'm branding myself. But it isn't conscious. Nobody here is a prospect for me. Perhaps the main reason I post here, is that I have the freedom to not worry about what client's might think. None of them are here. This is how I relax.

      But your point about "Is selling lots of books, not selling?' And it's a very valid point. It is selling. But if I am a reader of the book, I'd like to read something that came from the author, not rehashed feel good bromides. I'm talking about the content of the book, not the number of books sold.


      This guy is far more successful than you, and you knock him. Why?

      You suspect a motive that doesn't exist. I'm glad people are successful. And his books aren't completely worthless. But they aren't based on experience.

      Maybe 25 years ago, I decided to become a speaker. Really. But what I hated was listening to sales speakers that have never sold anything but books. Their contend was shallow. I disliked books on selling, by non-salespeople. I wanted to have my content be substantial, tested, proven, and so, I started testing everything I was doing, improving it along the way.

      I didn't want to be something I disliked,which was someone who taught something they did not know.

      And things have advanced. But many here are still getting taught the same old BS.

      That's "Tested and proven BS" to you. And I'm still selling today. Real sales from real clients. The reason there are people that still use old school sales methods, is because they work. Granted, if you sound like a 1950's used car salesman, you may not get too far...consumers are smarter now. More educated.

      Added later; Frankly, I forgot what thread we were on. Some sales methods are far more palatable than others.
      Gitomer (as well as most sales authors) give the methods that feel good, make sense, and sound great from a stage.
      It's not that it doesn't work, it's that it's baby food. In fact, one reason he sells far more books than I do, is that his books appeal to a far wider crowd. You don't even have to be in sales to like his books. And the most successful seminars are like that as well. They are basic, and they feel so very good. My mistake (one of many) is that my books give advanced skills. If you read my reviews on Amazon, you see that they are from experienced salespeople.

      The problem is, there are far more new salespeople, average salespeople, than advanced salespeople. I'm almost done with my next book Selling Essentials. It is written for the new guy, It will read much more like a standard sales book. And it's written for the sole purpose of selling speaking gigs, just like Gitomer's books. Just like nearly all current sales books. Probably, I'm a little late to the game.

      Do you think Gittomer or Tom Hopkins sell to clients, just like they do in their books? They don't. My two actual sales books give exactly how I sell in real life. The same phraseology, the same methods. And, to be honest, it can be a bit jarring to a new salesperson.

      Added later later; Now you've done it. Now, I have to go back into my library and take another look at The Sales Bible. I'm going off memory here. It would be really embarrassing, if I was confusing this book, with another.
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  • Profile picture of the author Underground
    Claude, you're continuing with the idea this guy doesn't sell in real life. Of course he does. He's a respected corporate sales trainer. Plus sells himself well on the world stage.

    He sells to big clients. I love Grant Cardone's 10x stuff and his enthusiasm. But for the types I need to cultivate long term- professional relationships with, I couldn't hire people in my business who would be constantly closing and emailing and being aggressive, because they're not the people who would tolerate that.

    You did a wiki search and found no story about selling, it doesn't mean he only sells gullibles, clueless fools like me who don't know better like you are trying to paint.

    The man sells corporate sales training among other things. He's a great success. He teaches an approach that's not for everyone, but for the people I will be targeting, I'd hire a likeable, non-aggressive guy who displays integrity and honesty like Gitomer and is a proven success, selling contracts worth millions than a hard-core old school commission guy who only cares about making a few sales a week to get by and pay the bills.

    He's way beyond that. If if wasn't me who posted this I doubt you'd be inclined to try to make this case.

    You, personally didn't find a story of early toil and sweat in the trenches from a quick search? And so he's a snake oil man or just a seminar seat seller.

    And you're pulling rank on to try to point that out?

    The guy has no real world experience or the tradional glengarryglen ross style of desperate men who had to do everything they could to make a few sales to keep their job and mortgage and a guy who learned to actually sell something that made him a fortune and goes beyond just 'closing a sale'.

    Come on. Sales is bigger than that. Of course this guy has real world experience. Success just doesn't just magically happen to anyone. Jeffrey is one of those people who teach real hard work and dedication, and it's how he got there. He had to sell.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Underground in Bold . Me not

      Claude, you're continuing with the idea this guy doesn't sell in real life. Of course he does. He's a respected corporate sales trainer. Plus sells himself well on the world stage.

      Yup. That's selling. In fact, pretty advanced selling. Which is not what he is teaching in his books. Again, this is from memory. So there may be more to his books than what I remember.

      He sells to big clients. I love Grant Cardone's 10x stuff and his enthusiasm. But for the types I need to cultivate long term- professional relationships with, I couldn't hire people in my business who would be constantly closing and emailing and being aggressive, because they're not the people who would tolerate that.

      Yes. You are more of a farmer, cultivating crops. I'm more of a hunter. Just two different approaches. Yours is ultimately more successful. Mine is harder. And again, Grant Cardone, Jeffery Gitomer, and Tom Hopkins...don't sell to large corporate clients, the way they teach in their books.

      You did a wiki search and found no story about selling, it doesn't mean he only sells gullibles, clueless fools like me who don't know better like you are trying to paint.

      No. He sells to people who embrace his approach, as outlined in his books. A far more socially palatable idea of selling. And these ideas have a much wider acceptance...a much broader audience.

      The man sells corporate sales training among other things. He's a great success. He teaches an approach that's not for everyone, but for the people I will be targeting, I'd hire a likable, non-aggressive guy who displays integrity and honesty like Gitomer and is a proven success, selling contracts worth millions than a hard-core old school commission guy who only cares about making a few sales a week to get by and pay the bills.
      I believe you.

      He's way beyond that. If if wasn't me who posted this I doubt you'd be inclined to try to make this case.

      You are wrong. For some reason, you think I have a negative opinion about you. I promise you, I don't...except you keep reminding me, that you think I don't respect your opinion. And that's not true.

      You, personally didn't find a story of early toil and sweat in the trenches from a quick search? And so he's a snake oil man or just a seminar seat seller.
      No. It means I can't find any real sales experience beyond teaching others how to sell.

      And you're pulling rank on to try to point that out?

      No. And truthfully, I don't really understand that question.

      The guy has no real world experience or the tradional glengarryglen ross style of desperate men who had to do everything they could to make a few sales to keep their job and mortgage and a guy who learned to actually sell something that made him a fortune and goes beyond just 'closing a sale'.

      Your picture of what I do or teach is very very wrong.

      Come on. Sales is bigger than that. Of course this guy has real world experience. Success just doesn't just magically happen to anyone. Jeffrey is one of those people who teach real hard work and dedication, and it's how he got there. He had to sell.

      He does teach real hard work and dedication. Although not skills, they are very helpful.

      I hope you have a good Easter. I'm spending it, arguing with a guy who can't take "We agree" for an answer.
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      • Profile picture of the author Underground
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        Underground in Bold . Me not

        Claude, you're continuing with the idea this guy doesn't sell in real life. Of course he does. He's a respected corporate sales trainer. Plus sells himself well on the world stage.

        Yup. That's selling. In fact, pretty advanced selling. Which is not what he is teaching in his books. Again, this is from memory. So there may be more to his books than what I remember.

        He sells to big clients. I love Grant Cardone's 10x stuff and his enthusiasm. But for the types I need to cultivate long term- professional relationships with, I couldn't hire people in my business who would be constantly closing and emailing and being aggressive, because they're not the people who would tolerate that.

        Yes. You are more of a farmer, cultivating crops. I'm more of a hunter. Just two different approaches. Yours is ultimately more successful. Mine is harder. And again, Grant Cardone, Jeffery Gitomer, and Tom Hopkins...don't sell to large corporate clients, the way they teach in their books.

        You did a wiki search and found no story about selling, it doesn't mean he only sells gullibles, clueless fools like me who don't know better like you are trying to paint.

        No. He sells to people who embrace his approach, as outlined in his books. A far more socially palatable idea of selling. And these ideas have a much wider acceptance...a much broader audience.

        The man sells corporate sales training among other things. He's a great success. He teaches an approach that's not for everyone, but for the people I will be targeting, I'd hire a likable, non-aggressive guy who displays integrity and honesty like Gitomer and is a proven success, selling contracts worth millions than a hard-core old school commission guy who only cares about making a few sales a week to get by and pay the bills.
        I believe you.

        He's way beyond that. If if wasn't me who posted this I doubt you'd be inclined to try to make this case.

        You are wrong. For some reason, you think I have a negative opinion about you. I promise you, I don't...except you keep reminding me, that you think I don't respect your opinion. And that's not true.

        You, personally didn't find a story of early toil and sweat in the trenches from a quick search? And so he's a snake oil man or just a seminar seat seller.
        No. It means I can't find any real sales experience beyond teaching others how to sell.

        And you're pulling rank on to try to point that out?

        No. And truthfully, I don't really understand that question.

        The guy has no real world experience or the tradional glengarryglen ross style of desperate men who had to do everything they could to make a few sales to keep their job and mortgage and a guy who learned to actually sell something that made him a fortune and goes beyond just 'closing a sale'.

        Your picture of what I do or teach is very very wrong.

        Come on. Sales is bigger than that. Of course this guy has real world experience. Success just doesn't just magically happen to anyone. Jeffrey is one of those people who teach real hard work and dedication, and it's how he got there. He had to sell.

        He does teach real hard work and dedication. Although not skills, they are very helpful.

        I hope you have a good Easter. I'm spending it, arguing with a guy who can't take "We agree" for an answer.
        Well I did get that impression that you were disagreeing in a series of posts to begin with. That was the wrong one then, that's fine. Not to the scale I thought you were disagreeing.


        Although on the issue skills, he does offer them. The book is only want small part of it.


        But I'm happy to leave it there.
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  • Profile picture of the author Underground
    Old school selling is still in practise today. Bring in new recruits to a sales office, have a dynamic positive sales manager pump everyone up about earnings and attitude, learn your scripts lie a robot and then get out in the field, and then at the end of the day if you made a few sales you 'ring the bell' explain in front of everyone how you did, everyone cheers. That was my daily experience selling door to door.

    Same with telemarketers these days. To do the job the way they'll train you, you absolutely have to give up any concern about pissing the other person off, encroaching on their time, not taking no for and answer, again sounding like a robot, and generally being someone the recipient despises.


    My whole point of sharing the video was to say you don't have to sell that way. There's successful people doing it far better and without compromising themselves.

    I already said Gitomer embodies the old school values. He's not claiming to have invented a new way. He's pointing out how and why things have changed.

    And is actually someone who has adapted, is using those new ways, and is a highly successful person.
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    • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
      Originally Posted by Underground View Post


      Same with telemarketers these days. To do the job the way they'll train you, you absolutely have to give up any concern about pissing the other person off, encroaching on their time, not taking no for and answer, again sounding like a robot, and generally being someone the recipient despises.

      .
      Not in my room, not in ANY room that wants to make it past the
      two, three year ( appx standard ) lifespan.

      I'm guessing that you did not mean to be insulting - but you should know.
      You just insulted me, my chosen profession and a entire industry.
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      • Profile picture of the author Underground
        Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

        Not in my room, not in ANY room that wants to make it past the
        two, three year ( appx standard ) lifespan.

        I'm guessing that you did not mean to be insulting - but you should know.
        You just insulted me, my chosen profession and a entire industry.
        If you don't teach your people that, then why take offence.

        There are firms who hire people from india to cold call all day and attempt to get to over come atleast 3 objections. To be a nuisance basically. Standard training is not much better elsewhere across the board.


        I'm being objective and observant of reality. There are so many firms out there sending out people with no real sales skill and just poor pitches that immediate signal 'salesperson' and the fact is people don't like them, like they don't Jehovah's witnesses.


        I know that because I got my fair share of abuse when I doing some door to door selling last year. And got told to **** off or other hostile reactions regularly. And even polite people couldn't wait to get rid of me.


        You don't have to sell in a way that gets that reaction, which is the point of this thread. And people who know what they are doing wouldn't badly train their staff. So sales is all about teaching people of the street a basic script and instructions to keep pressing no matter what.

        But even, so, no matter how good you do, some people will always have bad associations attached to it.

        I'm not talking about me personally and how I see all sales people, or the profession itself.

        I highly value and respect people who can sell well and have taken the journey to master what they do.
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by Underground View Post

          I

          I know that because I got my fair share of abuse when I doing some door to door selling last year. And got told to **** off or other hostile reactions regularly. And even polite people couldn't wait to get rid of me.
          I get it now. You worked for an organization that is a dinosaur. I guess some of these people still exist. But it isn't what I'm talking about at all, when I talk about selling. You are assuming that your experience is more typical than it is.


          And if you were cold calling on the phone, you'd have people hang up on you. But your experience isn't even remotely like anything I teach, or do...or Michaels does.

          There are scumbags in every business. You just thought that they were more the norm.
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          • Profile picture of the author Underground
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            I get it now. You worked for an organization that is a dinosaur. I guess some of these people still exist. But it isn't what I'm talking about at all, when I talk about selling. You are assuming that your experience is more typical than it is.


            And if you were cold calling on the phone, you'd have people hang up on you. But your experience isn't even remotely like anything I teach, or do...or Michael does.

            There are scumbags in every business. You just thought that they were more the norm.
            No. It's actually very dispiriting to be met with this kind of resistance. People don't like being sold in most cases by some soulless sales process. It's a simple as that. As soon as they here a signal that's it's a sales call, even from the best sales people, if it's a cold, promotional call, most groan inside.

            The put up with is to the point they want to the product and they like the person, and a skilled sales person with a good personality can overcome that. It shouldn't be taken personally.

            And no, I have no ulterior, personal motive for this thread other than the reasons I outlined, which again are ignored completely, when they are the truth. I really don't like discussions where people argue against the facts of reality.


            The office experience that was my first initiation into sales years back, and they were a massively funded and well branded and marketed energy company that sprung up as competition when the government sold of their monopoly and opened the doors to competition.

            The temporary one I has last year I was just working with a super successful building contractor, and he would get the job in an area and then hammer the rest of the neighbourhood, with a very simple low key offer of how we were working in the area, across the street, if they'd seen the work, would they like to get a free quote on theirs, we had a deal on etc.

            This guy is a multi-millionaire. He would hustle and hustle till he got one or two jobs on a new estate and then would put his signs and branding everywhere and be in their faces everyday as they went about their business, with signwritten vans and a company uniform. He knew once he got that exposure he could go into the area and have constant jobs lined up for months and makes massive money as he had the recognition, the branding, the work to take people over to look at, the social proof, the element of keeping up with the Jones's.


            People not liking to be sold or people knocking at their door uninterrupted to sell them something they don't want, has absolutely nothing to do with the skill and techniques and practises of the company that people don't like that.

            You're kidding if you don't understand that many people think that and no matter how good your skills are, they still will.

            It's hubris on behalf of the sales person and their ego. I'm surprised it's being taken as something contentious or new. Like it's news to some people.


            Again I have no ulterior motive other than to observe society and people, and see what they want and don't want.

            I'm going to say something strong here because I'm insulted to having this discussion.

            If a person things they have got their sales skills to such as level that every prospect they meet loves them, and the widespread dislike and distrust of being sold by someone, when they know they are being sold and what you routine is, it's just that person's ego talking, not fact. They maybe quickly able to gain instant rapport and a connection with someone and shift themselves out of being pigeon-holed as one and someone they can enjoy the selling experience with, but not in all cases.


            The other day I was in subway, and I asked for something and the women said it's not available, and I asked what was available and she was nice and well-mannered and helpful and made a good suggest and her body language and eye contact were all good. I wanted to buy. Only in those situations can you be sure you and your sales prowess are being appreciated by the person.

            When you're out doing direct sales on cold prospects, then seriously, you can't possibly refute what I'm saying. That many people are instantly resistant and the job is to get past that.


            There's no need to keep reducing what I've said in this thread to be based on being a sheep, or being poorly mis-trained or not knowing how pro's do it.

            I'm shocked it's even being contested.
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            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
              Originally Posted by Underground View Post

              No. It's actually very dispiriting to be met with this kind of resistance. People don't like being sold in most cases by some soulless sales process. It's a simple as that. As soon as they here a signal that's it's a sales call, even from the best sales people, if it's a cold, promotional call, most groan inside.

              The put up with is to the point they want to the product and they like the person, and a skilled sales person with a good personality can overcome that. It shouldn't be taken personally.

              And no, I have no ulterior, personal motive for this thread other than the reasons I outlined, which again are ignored completely, when they are the truth. I really don't like discussions where people argue against the facts of reality.


              The office experience that was my first initiation into sales years back, and they were a massively funded and well branded and marketed energy company that sprung up as competition when the government sold of their monopoly and opened the doors to competition.

              The temporary one I has last year I was just working with a super successful building contractor, and he would get the job in an area and then hammer the rest of the neighbourhood, with a very simple low key offer of how we were working in the area, across the street, if they'd seen the work, would they like to get a free quote on theirs, we had a deal on etc.

              This guy is a multi-millionaire. He would hustle and hustle till he got one or two jobs on a new estate and then would put his signs and branding everywhere and be in their faces everyday as they went about their business, with signwritten vans and a company uniform. He knew once he got that exposure he could go into the area and have constant jobs lined up for months and makes massive money as he had the recognition, the branding, the work to take people over to look at, the social proof, the element of keeping up with the Jones's.


              People not liking to be sold or people knocking at their door uninterrupted to sell them something they don't want, has absolutely nothing to do with the skill and techniques and practises of the company that people don't like that.

              You're kidding if you don't understand that many people think that and no matter how good your skills are, they still will.

              It's hubris on behalf of the sales person and their ego. I'm surprised it's being taken as something contentious or new. Like it's news to some people.


              Again I have no ulterior motive other than to observe society and people, and see what they want and don't want.

              I'm going to say something strong here because I'm insulted to having this discussion.

              If a person things they have got their sales skills to such as level that every prospect they meet loves them, and the widespread dislike and distrust of being sold by someone, when they know they are being sold and what you routine is, it's just that person's ego talking, not fact. They maybe quickly able to gain instant rapport and a connection with someone and shift themselves out of being pigeon-holed as one and someone they can enjoy the selling experience with, but not in all cases.


              The other day I was in subway, and I asked for something and the women said it's not available, and I asked what was available and she was nice and well-mannered and helpful and made a good suggest and her body language and eye contact were all good. I wanted to buy. Only in those situations can you be sure you and your sales prowess are being appreciated by the person.

              When you're out doing direct sales on cold prospects, then seriously, you can't possibly refute what I'm saying. That many people are instantly resistant and the job is to get past that.


              There's no need to keep reducing what I've said in this thread to be based on being a sheep, or being poorly mis-trained or not knowing how pro's do it.

              I'm shocked it's even being contested.
              And again, I'm agreeing with you completely. Other than, except for cold calling, you can go in with almost no sales resistance. Building up sales resistance is the mark of a newbie.

              Have you ever been sold by a great salesperson? It feels like a warm bath...a massage. Great selling is seamless..invisible. People resist salespeople that are jarring, abrupt, stammering, nervous, terrible. Their selling is obvious and unattractive. Dealing with a highly trained salesperson is a pleasure. And...people love...LOVE to be sold. It's dealing with incompetent salespeople, that they dislike.

              No, I'm not talking about you.

              It's the disruption that they resist....the interruption of their day. But that can go away in seconds. And this only happens if you are knocking on doors or cold calling on the phone.


              Added later;
              I've met great salespeople. The one's I'm talking about. They exist. I've bought from them. It was effortless, fun, a real pleasure. They aren't the norm. Certainly less than one in a hundred. But they exist. And I'm one of them. And there are a few others here that are like that as well.
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              • Profile picture of the author Underground
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                And again, I'm agreeing with you completely. Other than, except for cold calling, you can go in with almost no sales resistance. Building up sales resistance is the mark of a newbie.

                Have you ever been sold by a great salesperson? It feels like a warm bath...a massage. People resist salespeople that are jarring, abrupt, stammering, nervous, terrible. Dealing with a highly trained salesperson is a pleasure. And...people love...LOVE to be sold. It's dealing with incompetent salespeople, that they dislike.

                No, I'm not talking about you.

                It's the disruption that they resist....the interruption of their day. But that can go away in seconds. And this only happens if you are knocking on doors or cold calling on the phone.
                I understand what people who have been there and done that like you and Ken are getting at ofcourse.

                I'm only know of you guys and what you offer because you guys have learned and adapted to the new ways of selling. Ken sells one of the best and most respected products available and his main, flawless presentation via youtube video, and you've established yourself with highly rated training material, but you both had your grounding in the old techniques and have adapted them to today's realities.

                You guys are exceptions. I didn't mean to attack the old stuff in the way you guys know it or say those things are obsolete. But the way it's practised by most others. You guys are not in that category, where it doesn't fell like a conversation but an ensnarement but someone you can't wait to get rid off. Which is the majority.

                A lot of the times I'd here them when I was walking away and I'd hear a conversation going on like ''who was it?'', ''some guy wanting to know if we wanted a quote on the drive'', ''is that it. I'd wished they'd **** off. Someone's already been around asking that last week''.

                It wasn't directly. It's not personal either. Just a general default with people.

                And yes, I've admitted before I'm never going to be a great salesmen, so even though I wasn't as bad were I got open hostility and told to f off to my face, I wasn't as great at getting business as some of the seasoned people I was with that were just naturals at immediately establishing and bypassing the usual resistance from a poor or mediocre sales person, like I was.
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                • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                  Originally Posted by Underground View Post

                  I wasn't as great at getting business as some of the seasoned people I was with that were just naturals at immediately establishing and bypassing the usual resistance from a poor or mediocre sales person, like I was.
                  You're saying negative things about yourself. You're obviously intelligent, and care about your customers. That's probably 90% of the battle, right there.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Underground
                    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                    You're saying negative things about yourself. You're obviously intelligent, and care about your customers. That's probably 90% of the battle, right there.
                    Just that one comment there quashed would could have been a very detrimental belief that held back in the future.

                    I immediately recognized that I was being negative about myself when out that I wasn't pick it up fast enough or had the energy and enthusiasm.

                    But I realize it because I was selling something from someone else for some cash at the time.


                    When it comes to my business, I'm employing sales people and will be using their experience and ability to connect to strengthened the sales process and get everything down, all their objections and reasons, and I'm much more inclined now to get in that role myself down the line, because I'll be completely passionate about what I do and know how it will help them.

                    Right on the money there Claude and made me realize I shouldn't count myself out of the game just yet.
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              • Profile picture of the author digichik
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                Have you ever been sold by a great salesperson? It feels like a warm bath...a massage. Great selling is seamless..invisible. People resist salespeople that are jarring, abrupt, stammering, nervous, terrible. Their selling is obvious and unattractive. Dealing with a highly trained salesperson is a pleasure. And...people love...LOVE to be sold. It's dealing with incompetent salespeople, that they dislike.

                Hallelujah!


                Sales and selling are not bad things. There is no old school or new school, it's just SALES.

                One needs to understand the individual(s) they are selling to -- some people respond to a more consultative selling method, while others want to be TOLD to buy and won't close unless you tell them what to do. The key is understand what type of individual you are dealing with.

                There is no one size fits all method to sales. To be successful you need to have a full repertoire of various methods, for all of the different type of personalities you will be selling to.

                The only way to learn how to sell is to actually sell. The only way to effectively teach selling is to have actually sold.

                Oh yeah, you are not necessarily bothering a person, just because you don't take NO for an absolute answer the first, second or third time. You will be surprised at how many people will by from you before ever giving you the fourth NO, if you know how to handle them and understand what that NO really means. It's True Sales.

                I'm an capitalist to my core. Everyone is buying or selling something, that's what makes Capitalism so great.

                Sell On.
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  • Profile picture of the author Underground
    The kind of people accusing me of falling under the spell of a cult leader are the kind of people who are, in fact, most susceptible to following people based on their guru status or personality, rather than being able to listen to what is being said and see if there is any truth in it, regardless of who's saying it. They are legion. And I forget not everyone would listen to this video listening to the important bits and in an intelligent fashion to see if the content and facts being presented made sense, so I'll point them out here for those who didn't.

    If people want to discuss there merits or trash them, then fine, but I won't be wasting time with superfluous bs, from people who can't see the truth when it's right there in front of them.

    1. If you don't believe in what you are doing and you don't have the right attitude... your only going to be as good that moment is, your not going to have the devotion to the product or process or service.

    [Many people are into to get rich quick or for their own aims, they don't care about what their selling or go beyond that. Then ask themselves why the struggle. There's not for real. Not credible. Not likeable, not genuine. And provide no value. They want to take. I don't care who is pointing that out. I'm not spreading the gospel about Jeffrey Gitomer hoping people start worshipping him personally as the sales god of all sales gods. That was the last consideration on my mind, but the first on people like Eccj's. And I know why.]


    2. With the advent of the internet, social media, apps, and mobile purchasing the whole sales world has changed.

    [Who wants to the contest the truth of that statement?]


    3. You need to be thinking how you can adapt and adopt to the change, because then you have a chance at it.

    4. A shift from satisfaction to loyalty. The goal is to get them to become a repeat buyer and refer you. It doesn't mean they're not going to complain. But if they are loyal, it means you've one in the integrity battle, the value battle, and the quality battle and they'll do business with me again.

    [Do you think the average budding sales person here who wants to sell their services has the faintest idea that are even supposed to fighting a battle on those fronts? That the even think beyond their opener, a few superficial questions and some lame proposition the other person has heard hundreds of times before? No, I'll tell you right now after seeing hundreds of people here try to sell stuff, they have no idea. They don't think beyond the end of their noses.]

    5. Become the brand. Sales people think they live in the bubble world or this vacuum, hidden and unknown. When in fact when you come to my office, you're going to google me, your going to google my company, and you're gonna find out stuff about me. Do you think I'm not going to Google you?

    [You might make a sale or 2 here and then phoning a complete stranger out of the blue who has never heard of you, like most do here, but you won't have a successful business for long. There's so much great pre-selling and branding that can be done today, and you better be expected you and what you offer and you company is going to be check out. Or you're just being foolish]

    6. What is your image, what is your google image and what is your social image. Those 3 images make up the sales person. The sales person can no longer hide behind anything. They complete expose themselves immediately.

    [This is the reality. Like it or not. You need to be visible in your market place. Be found. Have solid material and show you are legitimate. Because many will be checking and if you don't have them and you're obsure, you're just ''Brian Richards with Utah Marketing and Web design services, maybe with some poorly constructed and bare website with a few cheesy sales features, you'll be fighting for scraps.]

    7. They're busy at home watching television when they should be building their brand. You should invest a certain amount of hours in yourself and you development each week.

    [Laziness. Mediocrity. Self-serving. Unwilling to bust their, go all out, putting all the extra effort and work to make it happen. They're still stuck in their warp, and I can bet you they aren't seeing consistent growth and revenues, and they don't even know they should be doing all this today and how their customers are already expecting it.

    8. I want to do business with someone that I like, someone I believe and someone I have confidence in, and then develop some trust. If I don't like you, I don't care who you are. If you don't sell me on you, why would I even listen to what you have to say? Unless I get the impression this person has some character and some value.

    Jeffrey matters only to the point that he practises what he preaches and is very successful.

    Those points above are all true. People can contest them. It's up to them. I posted in case there was other people who might be able to listen to the content and get some benefit out of those concepts and improve the way the go about things.

    I didn't think I'd have to spell things out.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Selling has never changed.... Old school? New school? The mediums have changed only. The fundamental selling principles are timeless and the basics hot buttons have never changed.


    Trends change, tastes and fashions come and go, but fundamental sales principles are timeless, endure, and transcend all times.


    Ad copy is just an old school sales pitch on a web page.


    Same social proof, same yes questions, same calls to action, same guarantee's and bonuses... same lead ins and loss leaders... timeless. None of these things are new.


    "Funneling" wasn't just born yesterday either.
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    I think this thread title might really be about high pressure versus consultative selling.

    Given my personality type, I think is sales nothing more than a presentation, or conversation(s) that
    gives me enough information to make a decision to buy or not buy. It also involves listening enough
    to me, and knowing your product or service enough to tell me to chose A, B, or C if I am having a tough time deciding which is best. (I may not remember the three of twenty services, benefits, or features that make
    one choice the best for my business.)

    At one of my first jobs, I had a manager whose mantra was that the customer is always right.

    It took a while - maybe people have become ruder - but years later I made the distinction
    that there is a line people can cross to where they are so rude, or a scammer, that they
    no longer deserve to hold the title of customer.

    The same is true for sales people. They are either worthy of holding the title of salesperson,
    or they are a jerk, or worse. (I'm not writing this as eloquently as I wish. Time for bed.)

    Dan
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    "If you think you're the smartest person in the room, then you're probably in the wrong room."

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  • Thanks for sharing this awesome information....
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    Stanley High School facilitates students to complete high school education or GED. This is an outstanding option for students who were not capable to complete their High School Education By any reason. You can get yourself an accredited regular High School Diploma.
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  • Profile picture of the author Underground
    Ok, the medium IS what makes the sales environment different today.


    I should have named this thread mediocre selling VS big league selling.

    Because if you're not availing of every advantage at your disposal to get yourself known in your market place, seen, trusted, doing what Ozi outlined, and you are not moving with the times as far as buyers habits are concerned and how they buy differently, then prepare to never get really successful and wealthy.

    Prepare to stay like at the level that the sales people Alec Baldwin is letting loose on in that seen in the film were at. Using low-grade techniques and just scraping by.


    Sales is not just sales. There's sales that will have you just making a few dollars above payroll and other expenses each month and then there is major success and company growth and increasing wealth.

    And there also a thing call buying, as well as selling. And people's reason's for buying are much stronger than your sales techniques. There's more choices for the buyer, more competition for you. Particularly if you are selling commodities.

    You want to get 1 out of every 1-200 calls bite? Then carry on being obscure, unknown, phoning up out of the blue, using techniques most people hate and hear every day.

    You want to real grow and expand your company, achieve real lasting and sustainable success then you better step up and be doing everything outlined in the vid in some fashion.

    And the most success people are doing that already and it's speaks for itself. It's clear to observe what the people who make a living with sales are doing compared to the masters who have built something beyond that and are wealthy and/or secure

    So many are comparing their current level to where they started from, scared and apprehensive but toiled away and learnt if they put in the grunt work each day they could make a living and get some customers. That's fine if they want to stay there.

    But they ain't comparing where they are to where they could be and the success they could be experiencing, or they'd be constantly open to knew ideas that could help them get their instead of being closed to them and thinking they know all there is to know.
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    • Profile picture of the author Oziboomer
      Originally Posted by Underground View Post

      Because if you're not availing of every advantage at your disposal to get yourself known in, seen, trusted, and you are not moving with the times as far as buyers habits are concerned and how they buy differently, then prepare to never get really successful and wealthy.

      Sales is not just sales. There's sales that will have you just making a few dollars above payroll and other expenses each month and then there is major success and company growth.
      Most professional sales people work for other people rather than for themselves because they realise the complexity of making profits and guiding a company into profit are in someways distinct from sales.

      Many marketers would have business owners believe that their best efforts should be generated towards marketing as if you can increase the number of clients and increase their spend then you can generate more profits.

      Often the reality is that the sales and marketing needs to be tempered with the cold hard reality of economic management and those that can manage both are the ones that generally succeed and grow.

      Most people in business have never been through extended periods of recession or worse still depression.

      There is a mentality that there will always be expansion but tis is not always true.

      Surviving when a market is contracting is when sales people really earn their keep.

      Knowing and utilising the skills of negotiation and also getting the support from management in regards to the necessity to maintain margins whilst also understanding the sometimes critical aspect of maintaining cash-flow is something that the dabblers in business can only observe and comment on rather that offer qualified advice.

      The longer term business operators understand that there are usually sustained periods of hardship where your sales skills and management skills are refined and hardened followed by periods of "easy money" that used to last for longer periods where the qualified survivors amongst us would seriously capitalise on their acquired abilities.

      The difficulties in today's markets is to adapt quickly and be very responsive to market pressures.

      Lean businesses who have mastered the art of waste elimination coupled with a supreme understanding of consolers needs are the one's that will survive to prosper and are already prospering from upswings that most people are "late to the party" discover after the fact.

      We always had a laugh with the real estate agents who killed it whether it was good or bad. They understood the "Real Estate Diet"....

      ...save when you've got....

      ....buy when it's depressed...

      ...sell when it's good.

      The bad ones spent when it was good.

      Some of the experienced sales people here can testify how they've spent when it was good and regretted later...

      They are the good one's....

      The bad ones end up on the end of petrol bowsers or filling bags...if they are lucky.

      Really unlucky ones go bankrupt and then re-birth as sales gurus...
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Originally Posted by Underground View Post

    Ok, the medium IS what makes the sales environment different today.


    I should have named this thread mediocre selling VS big league selling.

    Because if you're not availing of every advantage at your disposal to get yourself known in your market place, seen, trusted, and you are not moving with the times as far as buyers habits are concerned and how they buy differently, then prepare to never get really successful and wealthy.



    There is seriously no offense here in saying this Underground. I would like to think we have mutual respect, however; didn't you just tell me in another thread that most of the stuff you are sharing here is from things you have studied from others but are not yet implementing successfully?


    I don't think that not learning EVERYTHING is limiting yourself. Some people are crippled by too much learning and too many options, and not enough parameters.


    I think that if your clients are the kind who don't respond to cold calls, then all you have to learn is what YOUR clients respond to. Nothing more, nothing less.


    It is better to be a master of one trade than a jack of them all and a master of none.


    It's better to know ONE simple thing REALLY WELL, that gets you results, than a hundreds things that you don't really OWN your understanding of, and not being a master at any of them.


    Anything that is scalable has "MASSIVE WEALTH" potential.


    Nothing is scalable until you OWN that one system though.


    I say that whatever you do, FOCUS on that one thing and master it.


    The tiny stiletto heel of a 90 pound woman's shoe will break the ground open before the wide foot of a 2000 pound elephant will. You could put all FOUR of his feet together, and that tiny womans heel would still break the ground faster.


    There is power in singular focus.
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    • Profile picture of the author Underground
      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      There is seriously no offense here in saying this Underground. I would like to think we have mutual respect, however didn't you just tell me in another thread that most of the stuff you are sharing here is from things you have studied but are not yet implementing successfully?


      I don't think not learning EVERYTHING is limiting yourself. Some people are crippled by too much learning and too many options, and not enough parameters.


      I think that if your clients are the kind who don't respond to cold calls, then all you have to learn is what YOUR clients respond to. Nothing more, nothing less.


      It is better to be a master of one trade than a jack of them all and a master of none.
      I'd missed your post the first time around, and then after I re-read the rest of the replies realized you'd talked about only the medium changing to, and thought I'd get a defensive response.


      John, i've sold at the basic level most people teach. I've gone on a got thousands of over £10,000's worth of work in a week just knocking doors with a simple pitch for someone else.

      And for years I've studied the difference between those who sell and make a fortune, and those who scratch around and never really build wealth.

      The proof is overwhelming. Objectively. It doesn't matter whether I've personally done it. Claude has. Ozi has. Micheal has. Jeffrey Gitomer has. Jordan Belfort has. Iamnameless has. Grant Cordone has.

      I haven't yet, personally closed at £25,000 sale yet. I have to find the best methods to do that and find professionals with the consummate level of experience today that because I haven't got the luxury of years of learning to sell at that level.

      But, there's certain things rich, wealthy people do in their selling process, the broke and struggling don't do.

      That process is clear, and it's identifiable and it's true whether I've personally achieve that yet.

      I'm currently beset with infuriating delays before I can even get in my case. But give me a month or so, and if the biggest thing here is whether I've done it myself, then I'll prove that.

      But it's not. Bigger and better people than me have proved it for all to see if you only look.

      Are you a millionaire John. Are you wealthy?

      John, the strength of a winning sales process is the return it generates financial. The rest is pointless.

      It's not just sales knowledge and knowledge of scripts. There's far more involved. And the proof of whether a sales processes works or not is the level of success and financial return it gets, which is a some total of lots of different elements that are it's constituents. The rest is noise.

      I know it's a thing here for people to promote themselves and try to appear experts. I'm not one. And if I ever do become one I could only say that at the end of my life. I don't care for it.

      I'm not posting stuff to try to appear and expert, bolster my position or sell stuff.


      A lot of people here receive terrible advice on a consistent basis.

      All I care about it sharing stuff that might go some way to giving them a few ideas to implement that will make their business more successful.


      I'm not trying to play a big shot, or mention how great my own sales career was. I'm pointing out to others successes and how they don things. And there's more than enough proof there.
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      • Profile picture of the author John Durham
        Originally Posted by Underground View Post

        Are you a millionaire John. Are you wealthy?

        Not currently a "millionaire" , as if it would mean anything even if I said "Yes"..., but I HAVE been one, and I HAVE tested my theories on hundreds of people right here in the forum, and the results HAVE come back that I know what I'm talking about... and so I DO "own" my knowledge of these things I post, and that HAS been proven.


        I have worked for telemarketing rooms as a general manager/sales trainer/script writer/sales process innovator, that sold for over 800 million dollars, and had a million dollar room of my own at one time. I don't know if you qualify that as wealth or not.


        The merit of the things I am saying comes from MASSIVE and diverse first hand experience of the things I am talking about.


        I even have first hand experience at the things YOU are talking about, and have done almost 3 quarter of a million dollars in sales on STRICTLY the internet, as well as having made successful call lists out of internet generated leads on a couple of different business models...


        As for my current situation. I am happy, prosperous, and living a dream life that is unbelievable, Every room in my place has a beautiful view overlooking a river, and city skyline, in the most posh and cosmopolitan part of town... in the area where everyone WANTS to live... (as if any of that matters) , and I work entirely on the internet, after having worked entirely in the telemarketing industry for twenty years, with a career emphasis on internet related offline products and services.


        So, there is a difference in the knowledge I share, compared to some (not ALL) ... It came from direct experience. Im sorry if you cannot appreciate the value in that. I almost feel I have to apologize for having acquired the experience.


        I am not putting down anything you are saying. Please don't be offended. I was trying to make that point in a polite and non offensive way as possible.


        You are attracting these responses by using telemarketing and cold calling as an example of lower level thinking... when you haven't even EXPERIENCED the models you compare it to. No offense. Seriously. I wont debate any further on this because I know where this stuff can go and it's a HUGE waste of time and energy.


        None of this is bragging in any way. I certainly want to be a lot wealthier than what I am , and Im sure that applies to almost everyone... This post is simply an answer to your questions, not a "look at me" sort of thing..
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      • Profile picture of the author eccj
        Originally Posted by Underground View Post

        I'd missed your post the first time around, and then after I re-read the rest of the replies realized you'd talked about only the medium changing to, and thought I'd get a defensive response.


        John, i've sold at the basic level most people teach. I've gone on a got thousands of over £10,000's worth of work in a week just knocking doors with a simple pitch for someone else.

        And for years I've studied the difference between those who sell and make a fortune, and those who scratch around and never really build wealth.

        The proof is overwhelming. Objectively. It doesn't matter whether I've personally done it. Claude has. Ozi has. Micheal has. Jeffrey Gitomer has. Jordan Belfort has. Iamnameless has. Grant Cordone has.

        I haven't yet, personally closed at £25,000 sale yet. I have to find the best methods to do that and find professionals with the consummate level of experience today that because I haven't got the luxury of years of learning to sell at that level.

        But, there's certain things rich, wealthy people do in their selling process, the broke and struggling don't do.

        That process is clear, and it's identifiable and it's true whether I've personally achieve that yet.

        I'm currently beset with infuriating delays before I can even get in my case. But give me a month or so, and if the biggest thing here is whether I've done it myself, then I'll prove that.

        But it's not. Bigger and better people than me have proved it for all to see if you only look.

        Are you a millionaire John. Are you wealthy?
        It really is a testament to the kindness of the regulars on this forum that they still treat you with respect and try to answer you honestly.

        You talk about a process that is clear and true yet when people say they prefer listening to actual salesmen that have successfully done that you jump all over them.

        What works for Gitomer won't work if you are selling a product like a website or insurance or something that is not sexy. Yet somehow you can't get that through your head?

        And to ask John Durham about his wealth when you self admittedly haven't sold **** is just wrong. John Durham recently had a thread about his life experience; where is yours?

        You project your failures onto others and project others successes onto yourself. It is kind of sad.
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        • Profile picture of the author Underground
          Originally Posted by eccj View Post

          It really is a testament to the kindness of the regulars on this forum that they still treat you with respect and try to answer you honestly.

          You talk about a process that is clear and true yet when people say they prefer listening to actual salesmen that have successfully done that you jump all over them.

          What works for Gitomer won't work if you are selling a product like a website or insurance or something that is not sexy. Yet somehow you can't get that through your head?

          And to ask John Durham about his wealth when you self admittedly haven't sold **** is just wrong. John Durham recently had a thread about his life experience; where is yours?

          You project your failures onto others and project others successes onto yourself. It is kind of sad.
          Jesus christ. What in the world is your problem? You sound just like a looser sounds. I have sold. But I've move beyond selling low ball services that you operate at and are trying to shift. I've put massive hardwork on to developing what I sell and it's major undertaking and required higher expertise.

          What I've cut out for myself often keeps me awake at night. It's going to take far more than just selling low value commodity services. I'm not trying to play big time. It's just how it is if I ever want to get to where I want to go.


          Have I closed a deal at the type of figure I'll be going for at the high end? No. I'm honest about that. I've never worked with corporate clients or big brands. Have I closed them at the low-end? Yes, often.

          Even when selling in construction, we called on lower middle class areas, to some of the most expensive real estate in the world. I've set up leads for major deals where someone wants a whole football fields worth of block-work and landscaping to go with their mansion.

          But closing them required a far different approach and I need to pass them on to up high to close,, but I'd observe the difference in selling style required between a £200,000 deal and a £2000 deal, often in the same week.

          You don't even know me you tool. You've jumped to some ridiculous assumption for some reason I can't even fathom and waffling on about transference and projection and cults.

          The problem is with you.
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          • Profile picture of the author John Durham
            Originally Posted by Underground View Post

            Jesus christ. What in the world is your problem? You sound just like a looser sounds. I have sold. But I've move beyond selling low ball services that you operate at and are trying to shift. I've put massive hardwork on to developing what I sell and it's major undertaking and required higher expertise.

            What I've cut out for myself often keeps me awake at night. It's going to take far more than just selling low value commodity services. I'm not trying to play big time. It's just how it is if I ever want to get to where I want to go.


            Have I closed a deal at the type of figure I'll be going for at the high end? No. I'm honest about that. I've never worked with corporate clients or big brands. Have I closed them at the low-end? Yes, often.

            Even when selling in construction, we called on lower middle class areas, to some of the most expensive real estate in the world. I've set up leads for major deals where someone wants a whole football fields worth of block-work and landscaping to go with their mansion.

            But closing them required a far different approach and I need to pass them on to up high to close,, but I'd observe the difference in selling style required between a £200,000 deal and a £2000 deal, often in the same week.

            You don't even know me you tool. You've jumped to some ridiculous assumption for some reason I can't even fathom and waffling on about transference and projection and cults.

            The problem is with you.

            Wow. You are having a rough day my friend. I will back away.
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            • Profile picture of the author Underground
              Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

              Wow. You are having a rough day my friend. I will back away.
              No, John. I'm not having a bad day. The guy has been trolling me in this thread since the start and continues to hold some trifling little grudge. He's an irritant wasting my time with personal attacks.


              I wanted to reply to your other post.

              John, we are in the same position. Neither of us a rich and wealth yet. I'm far from that.

              I absolutely know that, that what I have busted my balls to build so that I am offering something of value to everyone involved, and I know, with everything I've learned in my lifetime, to pull of what I intend, something so large in scale that I've had panic attacks about it and often lie awake at night with fear, and gone hungry to set up, is going to require well above the usual methods that are fine for certain things but not where I've found myself. I didn't always start out with the intention to sell to higher corporates and famous people. It's just evolved to that stage where I'd be a coward not to really go for it rather that stay at a comfortable lower end and achieve mediocre results that will never allow me to achieve the level I want and that would give me personal satisfaction.


              You say you meant no offense but the whole point of your post was to belittle and discredit me because I haven't sold personally and closes deal at corporate level.
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      • Profile picture of the author tryinhere
        Originally Posted by Underground View Post

        And for years I've studied the difference between those who sell and make a fortune, and those who scratch around and never really build wealth.

        The proof is overwhelming.

        But, there's certain things rich, wealthy people do in their selling process, the broke and struggling don't do.

        That process is clear, and it's identifiable and it's true whether I've personally achieve that yet..
        What would you say are the key indicators between those that make and those that do not are ?
        Signature
        | > Choosing to go off the grid for a while to focus on family, work and life in general. Have a great 2020 < |
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        • Profile picture of the author Underground
          Originally Posted by tryinhere View Post

          What would you say are the key indicators between those that make and those that do not are ?
          Personally, the biggest one I've ever heard was from Grant Cardone this very weekend gone.


          His 10x.

          Be prepared to put in 10x the effort, 10x the persistence, 10x the work, 10x the ambition, because anything less is just not going to cut it to achieve success.


          He spoke about how he struggled for three years to build a business and then in the first few months got pummelled by so many obstacles and problems he hadn't foreseen, he felt like giving up and that he'd made a mistake.


          Who hasn't encountered this? Who hasn't thought it was going to be easier than it was and the problems come you didn't see, and since you only put in half-arsed effort and thought you were working hard you're ill prepared.


          I just needed to finish of a website and few documents, and was hoping to get going this week. Friday, my adobe product went on the blink and I'd spent the last three days, saturday, sunday, and yesterday till to in the morning trying to get the resolved. That popped up out of nowhere. I used to thing it just happened to me because of some difficiency or curse.


          Hearing from someone like Cardone, a world-wide success, that these things are regular occurrences when you step up, so you quickly better man up and 10 times your effort in everything you do rather than cost along, to me, is the single biggest difference.

          A massive commitment to excellence, set your targets 10x higher, working 10x harder than the average person so they you can deal and overcome the barriers that stand in the way of success.

          That's the biggest thing that's ever hit home with me on why some people are successful and others are average and mediocre. And observable in every successful person.
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      • Profile picture of the author Oziboomer
        Originally Posted by Underground View Post

        I've gone on a got thousands of over £10,000's worth of work in a week just knocking doors with a simple pitch for someone else.

        And for years I've studied the difference between those who sell and make a fortune, and those who scratch around and never really build wealth.

        The proof is overwhelming. Objectively. It doesn't matter whether I've personally done it. Claude has. Ozi has. Micheal has. Jeffrey Gitomer has. Jordan Belfort has. Iamnameless has. Grant Cordone has.

        I haven't yet,

        Are you a millionaire XXXXX Are you wealthy?

        It's not just sales knowledge and knowledge of scripts. There's far more involved. And the proof of whether a sales processes works or not is the level of success and financial return
        There are many people here who have had millions of dollars pass through their hands but how much has stuck?

        It is best to focus on what has worked for people in the past, present and YOUR future as that is what is most important.

        If I look at the best single sales I've had I'd look like a God....

        One major contract $120k in about 7 weeks. One single client sale $45K banked in 8 days.

        Less than $700 in bank and need to find $42K in 21 days......

        ....NORMAL...

        ...every month.

        Most months I need more than many people's annual incomes to just cover expenses.

        Failure is not an option.

        Progress is the only option.

        It has been this way for too many years....

        .....just ask the others who know how it is...

        ....we share...

        ..you learn...

        ...here's hoping.
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        • Profile picture of the author Underground
          Originally Posted by Oziboomer View Post

          There are many people here who have had millions of dollars pass through their hands but how much has stuck?

          It is best to focus on what has worked for people in the past, present and YOUR future as that is what is most important.

          If I look at the best single sales I've had I'd look like a God....

          One major contract $120k in about 7 weeks. One single client sale $45K banked in 8 days.

          Less than $700 in bank and need to find $42K in 21 days......

          ....NORMAL...

          ...every month.

          Most months I need more than many people's annual incomes to just cover expenses.

          Failure is not an option.

          Progress is the only option.

          It has been this way for too many years....

          .....just ask the others who know how it is...

          ....we share...

          ..you learn...

          ...here's hoping.

          You're reading the bullshit from other people who assume I'm here to try to build some kind of expert status for myself and act like a hotshot know it all. That's actually how most people are here so maybe it's not surprising some people see me the same. I'm pissed of these people are even involving me in those fruitless discussions because I here to learn, share and discuss ideas and learn new things and have my old beliefs changed for better ones.


          I'm here to learn from the handful of experts I know are for real and have businesses that are bigger than just ''making some easy money so they don't have to work''. I opened myself up last week to people's help and said I needed it. And now, because I share something on selling that's actually borne out and practises by the experts here, I generate this level of controversy and get accused or trying to act like an expert. It's not the case.


          I learned more from what you, Ken, Claude, John, Ewan, Iamnameless and others have shared in the last few weeks than I have in years here once I asked for help.


          I'm humble. But I also know what I know, my own experience, where I'm going and what I need to do and have my own life experience to draw from too. And when people want to challenge what I know as fact I will hold my ground on what I know is the truth. And be blunt on some things.


          But any perception that I'm here trying to act like I know everything is not true. People are just trying to accuse me of that.

          I know who to listen to here, and believe me I do listen and learn.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Personally when Underground comes back saying this all worked for him, I am going to be the first to celebrate his success. Im sorry if these conversations go into defensive mode at times, and end up sounding like a bunch of bragging or whatever. That is not the intention.
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    • Profile picture of the author Oziboomer
      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      Personally when Underground comes back saying this all worked for him, I am going to be the first to celebrate his success. Im sorry if these conversations go into defensive mode at times, and end up sounding like a bunch of bragging or whatever. That is not the intention.
      Celebration is what it's about.

      When someone's doing it tough it is wonderful to hear of success.

      Know that there are people who celebrate success and really feel great when someone benefits from an unconditional sharing of knowledge.

      When it is tough realise that people who provide advise fall into two categories...people who say it like it is and those that have an intuition but "don't know '

      Listen....

      ....and surely apply your own knowledge to the advisor's suggestions but be wary of "don't knows" ....

      ....as why would you trust advice from someone who provides an anecdote or two word answer without real contemplation.
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      • Profile picture of the author John Durham
        Originally Posted by Oziboomer View Post

        people who say it like it is and those that have an intuition but "don't know '

        Listen....

        ....and surely apply your own knowledge to the advisor's suggestions but be wary of "don't knows" ....

        Indeed. Oziboomer, I always enjoy your posts.


        The "don't know" part is the invisible secret. It is what I began defining at some point as the difference between "having" knowledge and OWNING it.


        I have noted huge quantum leaps in life when I went from the place of having knowledge to owning it. There is a degree of separation between the two.


        I HAD the knowledge of the law of numbers in my first week of selling... but I OWNED it after about 10,000 presentations!


        Owning something to me is the definition of a "working knowledge". The distinction that folks make when they put the word WORKING before the word KNOWLEDGE... is there for a reason. It's because there is a difference.


        @ Underground... I wasn't attacking you, I was DEFENDING what you call "lower level" marketing... your descriptions of it naturally solicit responses from it's practitioners which can be viewed as confrontational.


        You should know ahead of time that when you take an approach like that to make your point, you are going to create some heat. After having been the beneficiary of such heat in the past, I OWN the knowledge of that little tid bit of wisdom... Sadly it came from hard experience, and not very pleasant.


        I have been there and I use to get inflammatory all the time. What I have learned is that you can make your point without putting down someone elses. If it has any merit or makes any common sense, it will speak for itself, and stand on it's own. You could even knock a couple of pillars out from under it, and it would still stand, if it is strong.
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        • Profile picture of the author Underground
          Originally Posted by John Durham View Post


          @ Underground... I wasn't attacking you, I was DEFENDING what you call "lower level" marketing... your descriptions of it naturally solicit responses from it's practitioners which can be viewed as confrontational.


          You should know ahead of time that when you take an approach like that to make your point, you are going to create some heat. After having been the beneficiary of such heat in the past, I OWN the knowledge of that little tid bit of wisdom... Sadly it came from hard experience, and not very pleasant.


          I have been there and I use to get inflammatory all the time. What I have learned is that you can make your point without putting down someone elses. If it has any merit or makes any common sense, it will speak for itself, and stand on it's own. You could even knock a couple of pillars out from under it, and it would still stand, if it is strong.
          John, you're missing what is making me confrontational. That is pointless, energy zapping personal attacks. They're are seriously annoying and people trying to drag you down to a very low level.

          I just tried to share something useful. I didn't even want a debate. I don't enjoy being here for mindless debate.

          What I posted should have spoken for itself. Or at least been challenged on it's merits after being considered carefully and intelligently. That's what I would have hoped for.

          Not the petty squabbles and being completely misunderstood and misconstrued about every point I made, like some have.

          I said the medium is what makes the difference. And how that has changed people's buying behavior.


          Instead of that point being discussed, the discussion went right for me on a personal level, and has been on that since. So what if I haven't achieved the level of success yet of the people's who stuff I'm sharing. They have. And they are the ones who are important. Not me. You were the one who took it to that level straight away.

          You went straight in John with look, come back when you have real experience yourself. I can only point of the success of others and discuss that.

          You bought it to that level and the other guy piled in on top.

          It's been a struggle to get an intelligent discussion on the actual important points.

          That's not my fault.
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          • Profile picture of the author Ron Lafuddy
            Originally Posted by Underground View Post

            John, you're missing what is making me confrontational. That is pointless, energy zapping personal attacks. They're are seriously annoying and people trying to drag you down to a very low level.

            I just tried to share something useful. I didn't even want a debate. I don't enjoy being here for mindless debate.

            What I posted should have spoken for itself. Or at least been challenged on it's merits after being considered carefully and intelligently. That's what I would have hoped for.

            Not the petty squabbles and being completely misunderstood and misconstrued about every point I made, like some have.

            I said the medium is what makes the difference. And how that has changed people's buying behavior.


            Instead of that point being discussed, the discussion went right for me on a personal level, and has been on that since. So what if I haven't achieved the level of success yet of the people's who stuff I'm sharing. They have. And they are the ones who are important. Not me. You were the one who took it to that level straight away.

            You went straight in John with look, come back when you have real experience yourself. I can only point of the success of others and discuss that.

            You bought it to that level and the other guy piled in on top.

            It's been a struggle to get an intelligent discussion on the actual important points.

            That's not my fault.
            Yes, it is.

            You are the OP.

            It's your responsibility to recognize the unique contributions
            the real world stories and examples that others have added to
            this thread. They are the ones who've made it worth reading.

            Instead of recognizing and thanking them for contributing, you are
            spending your time here arguing with people.

            Why are you doing that?

            Why are you so confrontational?

            The proof of that is, you've argued with just about everyone who
            has posted in this thread, either in this thread or in another one.

            You've also confronted and argued with many others in this forum.
            People who can sell circles around you. You should talk (type) less
            and listen more. A lot more.

            There's a lot of valuable information provided in this forum. The
            kind that comes from years of successful sales experience. You'll
            miss most of it though, if you're busy throwing rocks at people.
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            • Profile picture of the author Underground
              Originally Posted by Ron Lafuddy View Post

              Yes, it is.

              You are the OP.

              It's your responsibility to recognize the unique contributions
              the real world stories and examples that others have added to
              this thread. They are the ones who've made it worth reading.

              Instead of recognizing and thanking them for contributing, you are
              spending your time here arguing with people.

              Why are you doing that?

              Why are you so confrontational?

              The proof of that is, you've argued with just about everyone who
              posted in this thread, either in this thread or in another one.

              You've also confronted and argued with many others in this forum.
              People who can sell circles around you. You should talk (type) less
              and listen more. A lot more.

              There's a lot of valuable information provided in this forum. The
              kind that comes from years of successful sales experience. You'll
              miss most of it though, if you're busy throwing rocks at people.
              Like I said, 80% full of losers who won't get anywhere. It takes massive balls and massive effort they don't possess.

              I don't have real life experience in two things that some of the true experts here have. Decades in outbound selling to a masterful leve. Or working with corporate clients on massive contracts.


              The rest, just because I haven't cultivated an expert authority status here and promoted myself, I have more real life experience at the same level most operate at here and reasons for why I say what I do then you even have the first idea about.

              It's a tragic fact most people are mediocre followers, who are easily impressed by authority status.

              They are not winners, and they react vehemently against the truth.

              The pro's here aside, who contest things for very valid reasons, that's the case.


              I will argue for the truth in all cases. I simply shared a video and recommendation trying to help people. I'm actually sickened by the amount of low-level operators it has attracted to bash successful, proven principles. And pissed of this thread even took the turn it did.

              Truth is wasted on fools. There is absolutely nothing to be debated in what was said in the video I shared, and a lot to be gained for most people not doing those things.


              But completely ignored for the most part.
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    Something can happen in life that takes a fortune away,
    but it does not take away the expertise.

    It is about finding what works for your personality and your business.

    It is about multiple sales and marketing and advertising systems in place.
    Never depend upon one source.

    There is a very successful furniture retailer in my State of Colorado. He has
    retired from retailing and manufacturing furniture at least five times ( he gets
    back in because he loves it), and has been used as a model in colleges here
    since the 70's.

    There used to be two major daily newspapers here. He used to advertise
    a ton in both papers. With the rise of the internet and printing costs, the
    newspapers worked a deal to use the same printing facilities and so on.
    As is typical when that happens, advertising rates shot up.

    The furniture retailer decided he did not need them and their high rates.
    After a while his sales went down enough and the newspapers missed
    his ad revenues, so they struck a deal that worked for all of them.

    The point is that that one constant system of advertising was pretty
    significant to his business. His company is also all over TV, the internet,
    and huge stores throughout the state. I'm sure he serves parts of Utah,
    Wyoming, Nebraska and Oklahoma as well.

    >>>>>

    I think a great resource for finding your style:

    How To Fascinate | Sally Hogshead
    Signature

    "If you think you're the smartest person in the room, then you're probably in the wrong room."

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    • Profile picture of the author Underground
      Originally Posted by bizgrower View Post

      Something can happen in life that takes a fortune away,
      but it does not take away the expertise.

      It is about finding what works for your personality and your business.

      It is about multiple sales and marketing and advertising systems in place.
      Never depend upon one source.

      There is a very successful furniture retailer in my State of Colorado. He has
      retired from retailing and manufacturing furniture at least five times ( he gets
      back in because he loves it), and has been used as a model in colleges here
      since the 70's.

      There used to be two major daily newspapers here. He used to advertise
      a ton in both papers. With the rise of the internet and printing costs, the
      newspapers worked a deal to use the same printing facilities and so on.
      As is typical when that happens, advertising rates shot up.

      The furniture retailer decided he did not need them and their high rates.
      After a while his sales went down enough and the newspapers missed
      his ad revenues, so they struck a deal that worked for all of them.

      The point is that that one constant system of advertising was pretty
      significant to his business. His company is also all over TV, the internet,
      and huge stores throughout the state. I'm sure he serves parts of Utah,
      Wyoming, Nebraska and Oklahoma as well.

      >>>>>

      I think a great resource for finding your style:

      How To Fascinate | Sally Hogshead
      That's a good resource.

      Expertise themselves have no value if they are not being use to their highest and best use.

      Most here are locked into one form of customer acquisition to the exclusion of all else or taught that. Mostly telemarketing here, which I'm not knocking. But I agree you need a mix.



      You need to cold call on the phone and in person. Use email effectively to reduce work load and dead time. Network. Advertise. Create content. Be active on social media, create a web presence. And not excuse these things away as being to expensive and taking months to make a return.

      And have a system where you are going and getting business and setting it up so they also here of you from other means and seek you out.

      If you're ambition and hungry and failure is not an option you'd be doing all these things instead staying in your comfort zone and doing one or two.

      That was the whole point of why I started this thread. The old way of selling pre-internet was cold calling and door to door. Many still default solely to that. I've seen it in nearly every WSO I've ever read. I see it daily on the forum.

      But, and I realize I'm in a very small minority here with this desire, if your business is bigger than just you or you truly want to make a massive impact in your market place and achieve the biggest possible financial returns, you must be doing all those things and taking advantage of every opportunity to sell yourself and get known, get people finding out about you.

      You can and should think bigger than how to sell a few mobile sites a week. Well, you don't have to. But the difficulty overnight consultants and people selling stuff straight from WSO's with no presence face is just going to get harder and harder. More calls, more work, less results, more struggle. The opposite of what a sane person should be seeking.


      I've yet to see one person by some hyped-up WSO, with some silly little website, and a simple pitch and really clean up like professional companies in the same space doing all the things above and using the web to their advantage.


      They're your competitors and you want to go out and think you can compete without being set up professionally and having certain fundamentals in place that your customers will expect, as outlined in the video.

      Truly pitiful for someone to be flamed on a thread for pointing that out, even on a biz-opp forum. I really didn't think it would be so above most people's ambition level to aspire to that and want to do everything they can to better sell their services.

      But it's well worth seeing the whole picture rather than getting stuck with the blinkers on and limit the ways you can attract new customers.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    @ Underground


    I wasn't accusing you of trying to present yourself as an expert... I was responding to something general you said that isn't always true, and advising you that you don't REALLY know that it all works until you have done it all. I only talk about stuff I have done... I understand though that in this culture it is customary for people to teach things they haven't done, but what happens is that it becomes like the ear phone game. Slowly but surely concentrated truth is watered down and lost, being diluted more by every second hand sharing of the knowledge.


    That's just my take. Please view it objectively.


    Calling people "tools" indicates to me that someone is having a rough day. Maybe I'm wrong.
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  • Profile picture of the author tryinhere
    Originally Posted by Underground View Post

    Personally, the biggest one I've ever heard was from Grant Cardone this very weekend gone.
    His 10x.
    Be prepared to put in 10x the effort, 10x the persistence, 10x the work, 10x the ambition, because anything less is just not going to cut it to achieve success..
    It would be true in general that those that put in more usually gain better outcomes in most of lifes endeavors.

    this part
    But, there's certain things rich, wealthy people do in their selling process, the broke and struggling don't do.
    could probably be successful sales people do over unsuccessful sales people

    is a little different in that creating wealth and selling do not really match or go hand in hand in some cases, and by that you can have a successful sales person making big sales and giving the appearance of wealth, when mostly their lifestyle consumes any given gains and if the ice castle were to melt they would have nothing but a pile of debt. these people are everywhere in all walks of life and are often known as the great pretenders

    Yet you can have an average sales person who is able to amass a small fortune over a period of time and often these people do not stand out.

    Yes earning a bigger amount would make it easier to amass wealth, but it is what you do with the money you earn over and above the amount alone that will create your wealth.

    Sounds like your on the right path with your sales and I wish you every success.
    Signature
    | > Choosing to go off the grid for a while to focus on family, work and life in general. Have a great 2020 < |
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    • Profile picture of the author Underground
      Originally Posted by tryinhere View Post

      It would be true in general that those that put in more usually gain better outcomes in most of lifes endeavors.

      this part

      could probably be successful sales people do over unsuccessful sales people

      is a little different in that creating wealth and selling do not really match or go hand in hand in some cases, and by that you can have a successful sales person making big sales and giving the appearance of wealth, when mostly their lifestyle consumes any given gains and if the ice castle were to melt they would have nothing but a pile of debt. these people are everywhere in all walks of life and are often known as the great pretenders

      Yet you can have an average sales person who is able to amass a small fortune over a period of time and often these people do not stand out.

      Yes earning a bigger amount would make it easier to amass wealth, but it is what you do with the money you earn over and above the amount alone that will create your wealth.

      Sounds like your on the right path with your sales and I wish you every success.

      Thank you. You've hit the nail on the head.

      To many, sales is removed from the idea of wealth. But if your focus is on building real wealth and assets you have to look selling being a part of that, not the be all and end all.

      Not just confined to making a sale on the phone call, but your whole strategy, your long-term focus and deep elements of many other facets of a successful business.


      I can never get why some people would go into business on a market stall selling fruit and veg for £1 and making 50 a sale and having an massive limitation on their earning potential.

      Yes, they can sell, and bring people their stall and make them buy more with their patter, but they haven't created a structure where there selling skills can build real wealth and security for them.

      There's nothing noble in that. To me, it's not very intelligent. If you have real sales skills, then you owe it to yourself to look for the best ways to employ them to bring you real success. Anything less than that is lazy and a waste.

      Selling is a very broad topic and area that touched on way more than just selling a product or service and getting a yes from a customer, but is one part of a wider chain of things.

      A narrow, fixed, unmoving focus idea of sales benefits no-one.

      Thanks again.
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  • Profile picture of the author sooWoo
    All I've been seeing in this thread is just a bunch of arguing about what works and what doesn't and why you should do this or that a certain way.
    Signature
    Launching a writing business and offering discounts for my first few clients. I'm an American, native english speaker. PM me and let's talk!
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    • Profile picture of the author Underground
      Originally Posted by sooWoo View Post

      All I've been seeing in this thread is just a bunch of arguing about what works and what doesn't and why you should do this or that a certain way.
      Well fix that problem them. Apply some intelligence to what you read and a bit of thought for what was said.

      Just blame others that your simply focusing on the pointless stuff.


      Even if you took the time to read how Ozi does business and how he sells to people how they want to be sold, and build rapport first that makes his closes far more powerful, or how professionals make things conversation so the other person never feels they are being gamed, or the reasons for why it's important to adapt and adopt certain principles in what you do to match how things are today, to make sure your prepared when people do due diligence on you. Or the talk about making sure aiming your sales skills in the right direction and they are part of complete system that will bring you the biggest pay-off.

      If you were discerning you'd skip the noise and seek out the value.


      If you want to get anything out of this place, where 80% are chasing moronic schemes for wealth and easy money and don't even know what it means to provide a customer with real value others aren't doing, then you better learn to discern more carefully.
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  • Profile picture of the author Underground
    I've tested many times in my various attempts to find the right business, market, product and service that I could feel proud and fulfilled in going into business with over the last few years, virtually every concept, approach, script that has been heralded here as THE solution.

    A lot of trial and error. Successes and failures. But most of the methods and advice are woefully inept by themselves and aren't enough to run a successful enterprise. But I know this, even in times where I've had to go back to the drawing board I've created business and products better than most people here offer. And then months back, I'd got some funding on a business plan I'd submitted where I intended to run a small little video production company on the idea that I'd offer half day and full day shoots where I'd interview them on 5 to 10 key points and create a 5 or 10 part video series.

    I really thought this could get me some clients. It was quashed in 5 minutes when a professional presenter told me I'd be hard pressed to be able to get that volume of material. It wasn't a goer.

    So I focused on a much bigger plan that I'd had intentions of getting to in the future. A much bigger plan that has involved and hell of a lot of work, and been beset with difficulties and now I've had to move to plan see to get the investment capital to make things work.


    But where I'm headed with the new venture is not my first foray into selling. Of course it isn't. I studied and applied many different things up to this point. And worked far harder and been for more committed to creating a real, sustainable, long term business than I've observed in a lot of other people here.

    I know from experience there are far better ways to generate leads and response then most people use. Of course I do.


    But I'm rare. I'm in a position, not really through choice, but it's where I find myself, that my considerations and strategic objectives are far more complex and involved than most people here plodding along do what they do.

    If that comes across as arrogance and the reason for most people ire, then so be it. I hold you in the same contempt for being so self-serving and trying to sell crap to people and having no professional pride, ethics, ambition and drive to launch a business that makes a real difference and genuinely helps people beyond just making them money.
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    • Profile picture of the author eccj
      Who are you even talking to Underground?
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      • Profile picture of the author Underground
        Originally Posted by eccj View Post

        Who are you even talking to Underground?
        Not to a bitter little insurance salesman who doesn't have the balls to aim big and start a real company themselves, that's for sure. Why are you so twisted?


        Ludicrous. I posted a video and for some reason that was a red rag to a bull to you? I've had to content with your poisonous, obnoxious little attacks since.

        What the hell is wrong with you? Seriously?
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        • Profile picture of the author eccj
          Originally Posted by Underground View Post

          Not to a bitter little insurance salesman who doesn't have the balls to aim big and start a real company themselves, that's for sure.
          You know Underground, I have been about as cordial with you as one can hope and then you say that.

          I am sorry your business keeps you up at night and that things haven't worked out for you but to say that is uncalled for and you owe me an apology.

          So far you have called me a "moron" and a "tool" and I let it fly. You have been dishonest this whole thread and now you call me "bitter" and "little" and now you say I don't have "balls," which is clearly misogynistic I might add.

          You are obviously very sensitive. That makes sense since you also have a problem taking responsibility. Maybe that is why you lash out at people like a spoiled brat.

          If you would like to have a conversation on the dialectical level I will be glad to talk. But I will not approach you on that level when the only thing you have to offer is rhetoric.

          You already made an idiot of yourself on the "3 month cold calling" thread and for whatever reason you are bent on making yourself look like an idiot on this thread as well.
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          • Profile picture of the author Underground
            Originally Posted by eccj View Post

            You know Underground, I have been about as cordial with you as one can hope and then you say that.

            I am sorry your business keeps you up at night and that things haven't worked out for you but to say that is uncalled for and you owe me an apology.

            So far you have called me a "moron" and a "tool" and I let it fly. You have been dishonest this whole thread and now you call me "bitter" and "little" and now you say I don't have "balls," which is clearly misogynistic I might add.

            You are obviously very sensitive. That makes sense since you also have a problem taking responsibility. Maybe that is why you lash out at people like a spoiled brat.

            If you would like to have a conversation on the dialectical level I will be glad to talk. But I will not approach you on that level when the only thing you have to offer is rhetoric.

            You already made an idiot of yourself on the "3 month cold calling" thread and for whatever reason you are bent on making yourself look like an idiot on this thread as well.

            Like Ron, just some ridiculous little personal slight then based on nothing more than emotive resentment and misunderstanding. No substance.

            Anyone who challenges and attacks for what I know is absolute nonsense and pulls little ploys like this to try to appeal to the group trying to discredit someone, not once putting a solid counter point to any of the actual important points I've made, needs to get a grip.

            You have absolutely nothing to say on the points I gave. That I had to spell out.

            Just foulness.
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            • Profile picture of the author eccj
              Originally Posted by Underground View Post

              Like Ron, just some ridiculous little personal slight then based on nothing more than emotive resentment and misunderstanding. No substance.

              Anyone who challenges and attacks for what I know is absolute nonsense and pulls little ploys like this to try to appeal to the group trying to discredit someone, not once putting a solid counter point to any of the actual important points I've made, needs to get a grip.

              You have absolutely nothing to say on the points I gave. That I had to spell out.

              Just foulness.
              Maybe we are getting somewhere..... Make your points and I will say something to it.
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              • Profile picture of the author Underground
                Originally Posted by eccj View Post

                Maybe we are getting somewhere..... Make your points and I will say something to it.
                I already did. You ignored them. But please don't act like you are here for anything constructive.


                We're all petty and stupid sometimes, or have been in the past. We've all taken a dislike to someone for some pointless reason when we are in a negative state of whatever and won't rest until we've tried to make them feel like shit and make them look silly. You've had your shot and tried to do that.

                I'm sure there are alot of people with a similar perverse view of this thread who agree with you.

                But I'm not going to now play along so you can make it look like your contributions were meant to be anything more than that. I did try. But I'm wasting no more time with you.

                Being in this situation, where the stakes are high and there's fear there is a blessing I might have avoided but now can't shirk the challenge. Not a sign of failure. Any entrepreneur will tell you about that fear when they are really pushing themselves way out of their comfort zone and going for something major. That you took it a sign of failure says it all. Really does.
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                • Profile picture of the author kemdev
                  Originally Posted by Underground View Post

                  I'm sure there are alot of people with a similar perverse view of this thread who agree with you.
                  The people who wanted to discuss what you brought to the table, you attacked. They were wrong, you were right - that's what you'll have us believe in black and white terms. Then most of your posts were about how much you do/how awesome you are/how hard things are that you do/how everyone else is worthless/etc... Maybe you have the perverse view?

                  But then again most of the time ya'll act like this is supposed to be some giant circle-jerk and/or d*** measuring contest. The discussion should overshadow the rest.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Underground
                    Originally Posted by kemdev View Post

                    The people who wanted to discuss what you brought to the table, you attacked. They were wrong, you were right - that's what you'll have us believe in black and white terms. Then most of your posts were about how much you do/how awesome you are/how hard things are that you do/how everyone else is worthless/etc... Maybe you have the perverse view?

                    But then again most of the time ya'll act like this is supposed to be some giant circle-jerk and/or d*** measuring contest. The discussion should overshadow the rest.


                    Wave after wave or people displaying they're completely devoid of the ability to read for comprehension.

                    I did know the demographic of this place was people of the lowest intellectual category, since that is where most copywriters aim their WSO's at, but I'm truly shocked this place is as bad as this.

                    I have had to defend myself from post after post like this that is absolutely nothing to do with the subject in the OP or how the subject, on a place with more serious business people rather than majority gullible get rich quick seekers, would usually take place.



                    I didn't post it for the approval of people here and whether it satisfied them and their criteria, or people who post here for fun and to shoot the shit. It would genuine help newbies to have a full, holistic view.

                    People want to come on, twist everything I've said and why I've said it and think I'm going to roll over and be obedient.


                    The people who have actually constructively added to this I've been more than happy to be civil and reach agreements with.


                    What an indictment on this place and the general calibre of people. The 'cult of the amateur' vibe that is so pervasive that things descend to this level.
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                    • Profile picture of the author John Durham
                      Originally Posted by Underground View Post

                      Wave after wave or people displaying they're completely devoid of the ability to read for comprehension.

                      I did know the demographic of this place was people of the lowest intellectual category, since that is where most copywriters aim their WSO's at, but I'm truly shocked this place is as bad as this.


                      Disgusting behavior.


                      The truth is most of you people are selling absolute shit, to newcomers to the IM world who fall for you crap. You should be ashamed.

                      Wow. The amazing thing is that you aren't saying this just to troll. You really feel that way about this forum and the people here. Most people say stuff like that just to be controversial.... You are truly deceived.


                      When your 50 point plan works out by next week, let us all know again how stupid we are.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Underground
                        Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

                        Wow. The amazing thing is that you aren't saying this just to troll. You really feel that way about this forum and the people here. Most people say stuff like that just to be controversial.... You are truly deceived. When your 50 point plan works out by next week let us all know again how stupid we are.
                        Yes, John. Do you still buy WSO's? Have you read one lately? Have you seen some of the ads here?

                        The promises of easy riches, left right and centre. The junk a lot of people are trying to sell to others in the sig.

                        I'm not talking about everyone. The difference between the good stuff and the rest is massive.

                        But is it mostly pure junk, and we've all been burned. Don't people who have been about a while all know that?
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                      • Profile picture of the author Underground
                        Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

                        Wow. The amazing thing is that you aren't saying this just to troll. You really feel that way about this forum and the people here. Most people say stuff like that just to be controversial.... You are truly deceived.


                        When your 50 point plan works out by next week, let us all know again how stupid we are.

                        I've been put on the spot in this thread. Attacked. Flamed. Falsely accused. My intent for everything I've said twisted and taken in the worse possible way.

                        They people doing that are not smart, wise people.

                        And now look at you showing your true colours. '50 point plan'.

                        Do you know what's required to launch a high-end magazine John and get purchase in the market and top brands and well know figured on board?


                        Do you think it's the same as hawking a directory places. It necessitates a massive and consistent sales and marketing strategy. If I could just go basic I would. But can't.
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                        • Profile picture of the author John Durham
                          Originally Posted by Underground View Post


                          Do you know what's required to launch a high-end magazine John and get purchase in the market and top brands and well know figured on board?

                          .

                          Nope. When you do though I'd love to hear how it worked.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Underground
                            Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

                            Nope. When you do though I'd love to hear how it worked.
                            Well, I am relieved I didn't get a long post pouring fuel on the fire.


                            I won't be back here hyping myself and proving a point. I never ever mentioned those things in anyway to self-promote or look good to people here. Certainly not to some of the lowly characters who have graced this thread with nothing but petty spite.



                            I will be back here, no doubt, helping newbies to think bigger than scoring some quick cash and not to believe all the BS here. They need to think like business people, be smart, learn many disciplines, be willing to face agony and set backs you wouldn't believe, be professional and ethical about what they do, go all out, create real value, use every available resource at their disposal, be ambitious, never fall for stupid claims or prey to the sharks who seek to take advantage of them, all of that. Treat prospects like humans, etc.


                            My point is, having once been conned and mislead down a wrong path so when I went out and starting winning business I didn't know anything about how to run a business as I thought it was as easy simply saying so magic words to people and banking checks, all I ever care about is trying to share stuff so newbies can expand their thinking and avoid all that.

                            I will never and would never, ever try to be a 'name' here and hype myself and try to impress and am not knocking the solid people here who's stuff is genuine. Because so many others do that though, me simply pointing out my situation or sharing a few facts is taken that way.

                            I abhore all that nonsense. People should be taught solid principles and the truth and not have to get mislead listening to people egos and dogmatic opinions or pointless discussions here.



                            The last thing I needed was this discussion, with people doing there best to paint me as an absolute fool and calling on me to have to defend myself against that. And people thinking I'm been getting of on it or instigating it?
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  • Profile picture of the author Underground
    Rarely have I ever encountered a situation like this. I did use to read the Anti-Warrior but felt he focused only on the bad stuff. I come here when stressed to learn a thing or two from the true experts.


    I seemed to have been sucked into the unseemly under-belly of this place in the last week simply for trying to post something helpful I would have found useful when starting out.


    Now I have a man who ripped of thousands of people joining in a host of other characters in some mad spectacle, trying to belittle me for having higher aspirations than selling junk for a living and using anything but the most basic, customer acquisition methods, and twisting everything I said into a bad light because he took exception to something that wasn't even aimed at him.

    You couldn't make it up.

    A man incredulous that I could even be serious about pointing out the crap that gets sold here:


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    Crooks.
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    • Profile picture of the author tryinhere
      Originally Posted by Underground View Post

      I seemed to have been sucked into the unseemly under-belly of this place in the last week simply for trying to post something helpful I would have found useful when starting out.
      Sometimes in real life or online it can be easier to just agree and say "Thats Nice" raher than continue in circles.


      Signature
      | > Choosing to go off the grid for a while to focus on family, work and life in general. Have a great 2020 < |
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      • Profile picture of the author Underground
        Originally Posted by tryinhere View Post

        Sometimes in real life or online it can be easier to just agree and say "Thats Nice" raher than continue in circles.


        You're right. Just the sheer number of constant character assassinations, slander and smears caught me off guard at the wrong time and just these people thinking a group attack and forum politics should intimidate me made me get caught up. I didn't realize just how truly pathetic the situation was and how little I should be bothered with people of that mindset until I saw that vid and it put things into perspective.

        Thanks. Now I can laugh at the situation. What a circus.
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        • Profile picture of the author Matthew North
          Originally Posted by Underground View Post

          You're right. Just the sheer number of constant character assassinations, slander and smears caught me off guard at the wrong time and just these people thinking a group attack and forum politics should intimidate me made get caught. I didn't realize just truly how pathetic the situation was and how little I should be bothered with people of that mindset until I saw that vid and it put things into perspective.

          Thanks. Now I can laugh at the situation. What a circus.
          You seem to be taking a lot of things personally, as well as making yourself an easy target for others by being butthurt and defensive. I don't agree with what people are saying but this why it's happening. The forum isn't out to get you, even if you openly attack the members. The truth is that people really do not care much about you, so no one is mounting character assassinations or plotting a group attack.. this is the result of taking things way too personally, and probably spending too much time on here, analyzing every sentence that could be construed as a personal attack. No-one gives a **** man. If you think you are above everything here then why do you continue to post? Leave if you are going to bring this board down in a petty self-absorbed bitchfight.
          Signature

          you cant hold no groove if you ain't got no pocket.

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          • Profile picture of the author Underground
            Originally Posted by Matthew North View Post

            You seem to be taking a lot of things personally, as well as making yourself an easy target for others by being butthurt and defensive. I don't agree with what people are saying but this why it's happening. The forum isn't out to get you, even if you openly attack the members. The truth is that people really do not care much about you, so no one is mounting character assassinations or plotting a group attack.. this is the result of taking things way too personally, and probably spending too much time on here, analyzing every sentence that could be construed as a personal attack. No-one gives a **** man. If you think you are above everything here then why do you continue to post? Leave if you are going to bring this board down in a petty self-absorbed bitchfight.

            Matthew everyone comes out with shit like that when it's not happening to them.

            I'm exhausted and the last thing I want is to even see absolutely ******* ridiculous nonsense aimed in my direction nonstop. Even now.

            Be on the end of yourself. When people do that to me I stand my ground.

            Every second post you read is moronic and personal, and sinking to new depths.

            I'm the one whose been on the receiving end of some of the most moronic, pointless drivel that has given about 20 different members a chance to jump in and get a cheap shot in.

            Now it's your turn. You people need to shut the **** up.
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  • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
    Well this thread spiraled out of control.

    One of the reasons I don't partake in the conversation of sales threads. Too many variables, people stuck in their own ways, beliefs, etc.

    Underground, you mentioned mediocre selling vs. big league selling but I think that's all relative.

    Fortunately for us, sales provide us with a metric that isn't debateable and that is revenue.

    Big league selling, amateur selling, selling without really selling, consultative selling... low hanging fruit selling... in the end, how you sell doesn't matter, how much you sell does.

    Like I said in another thread, there is no one method. There is no one approach. In fact, the more you are able to change your approach depending on the situation and the personality on the receiving end, the better off you will be.

    Then again, I know nothing about sales, sales training, theory, best practices... I just make them and analyze what I do, where I mess up, what could have been done differently and that is the case whether the lead has been won or lost. If it's been won, I analyze what could have been done to get them to close faster, how I could have upsold but didn't, etc.

    Anyway... that's my 2 pennies.
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    • Profile picture of the author Underground
      Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

      Well this thread spiraled out of control.

      One of the reasons I don't partake in the conversation of sales threads. Too many variables, people stuck in their own ways, beliefs, etc.

      Underground, you mentioned mediocre selling vs. big league selling but I think that's all relative.

      Fortunately for us, sales provide us with a metric that isn't debateable and that is revenue.

      Big league selling, amateur selling, selling without really selling, consultative selling... low hanging fruit selling... in the end, how you sell doesn't matter, how much you sell does.

      Like I said in another thread, there is no one method. There is no one approach. In fact, the more you are able to change your approach depending on the situation and the personality on the receiving end, the better off you will be.

      Then again, I know nothing about sales, sales training, theory, best practices... I just make them and analyze what I do, where I mess up, what could have been done differently and that is the case whether the lead has been won or lost. If it's been won, I analyze what could have been done to get them to close faster, how I could have upsold but didn't, etc.

      Anyway... that's my 2 pennies.

      Have you ever been working flat out on something and been exhausted and had situation turn into complete cluster ****s?

      I was hoping posting this thread I'd have a few laid back replies and some decent discussions.

      My whole point was lost in the madness of this place. The egos, the dogma's, the biases, the people trying to sell their products, the followers, the clueless all descended.

      My whole point was identical to yours. That there is not one set context of selling. There's many different ways.

      The main one here that often touted as the only one is telemarketing style. I'm simply saying there is more to it.
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      • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
        Originally Posted by Underground View Post

        Have you ever been working flat out on something and been exhausted and had situation turn into complete cluster ****s?

        I was hoping posting this thread I'd have a few laid back replies and some decent discussions.

        My whole point was lost in the madness of this place. The egos, the dogma's, the biases, the people trying to sell their products, the followers, the clueless all descended.

        My whole point was identical to yours. That there is not one set context of selling. There's many different ways.

        The main one here that often touted as the only one is telemarketing style. I'm simply saying there is more to it.
        To answer your question, yes, many times... In fact, if it doesn't happen to me more than once or twice a year I know I'm being lazy

        I've seen a lot on this forum over the years and usually called people out, laid into them, corrected some silly nonsense... but now for the most part all I can really do is ignore the BS, take in the good stuff, let go of the bad.

        I think there are a lot of legitimate posts in this forum, with very one sided beliefs because they talk about their experience and what works for them. That's what they know, and there is value in that. Unfortunately, there are by far more people never practicing what they preach spreading misinformation, hype, or just crap that they think people will like.

        The good thing though is this sub forum of offline marketing is that it has real discussions. You try putting this thread in the main internet marketing discussion part of the board and you'll get amazingly awful responses. I'd rather see people disagreeing in depth than seeing that garbage.

        Don't take any of this personally. We're all marketers with egos and a need to be right. LOL
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        • Profile picture of the author Underground
          Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

          To answer your question, yes, many times... In fact, if it doesn't happen to me more than once or twice a year I know I'm being lazy

          I've seen a lot on this forum over the years and usually called people out, laid into them, corrected some silly nonsense... but now for the most part all I can really do is ignore the BS, take in the good stuff, let go of the bad.

          I think there are a lot of legitimate posts in this forum, with very one sided beliefs because they talk about their experience and what works for them. That's what they know, and there is value in that. Unfortunately, there are by far more people never practicing what they preach spreading misinformation, hype, or just crap that they think people will like.

          The good thing though is this sub forum of offline marketing is that it has real discussions. You try putting this thread in the main internet marketing discussion part of the board and you'll get amazingly awful responses. I'd rather see people disagreeing in depth than seeing that garbage.

          Don't take any of this personally. We're all marketers with egos and a need to be right. LOL
          The trouble is when pointing out the biases, you get accused of favouring some other approach and dismissing the other.

          Me I just want to find the right tool for the particular job, and that can be many thinks.

          But I think having a kind of ethos to the way you sell, which Ozi explained in how he treats his customers and the way he sells is a good thing. That goes beyond all the techniques and stuff and contained them.

          It's nothing new or ground breaking. It's the mindset of most people here is so self-serving and focused on their benefits and making the sale for themselves they don't not have a principle or ethos of treating the other person like an intelligent, normal person.


          They act like the are stupid and there to be easily gamed and manipulated. I was very unclear about why I posted the vid and the points I thought were important, and was hoping to share other points but no chance of that.

          Experience people here who have been there know they can't treat potential clients like fools and make stupid pitches to them like the pitches in the headlines of WSO's. That's not the real world. And so I posted something from someone who made a point about the important of being likeable, trustworthy, credible.

          I still think it's important. Not to all, but some could do with grasping that.

          The debate stuff. Who has the one true answer. Who made a million sales calls to have the authority to even speak or point something out, who's this and that, all of that bollocks, I'd happily live without.
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          • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
            I'm bumping this thread. I just found my copy of The Sales Bible. I'm going to re-read it again tonight/tomorrow to give it a clearer look.

            And then I'll post what I got out of it.
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            • Profile picture of the author eccj
              Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

              I'm bumping this thread. I just found my copy of The Sales Bible. I'm going to re-read it again tonight/tomorrow to give it a clearer look.

              And then I'll post what I got out of it.
              That's funny.

              I saw a guy at a coffee shop reading it on Wednesday. It made me think about this thread.

              There are some funny comics in that book. The one where the dorky guy says "lets get together and trade glasses and look at this from the others perspective" had me in tears.
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              • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                The Sales Bible book review.

                The book says “Resource,” and that’s what it is. This isn’t a book written by a salesperson, explaining how to sell. It’s an encyclopedia of techniques, lists, and formulas about the sales process….and a little more.


                First, the bad news. This book could have been written by anyone. In fact, I suspect that it was…written by a compiler of information. This doesn’t read like it was written by one person, but an assemblage of information from multiple sources. There is also very little of Jeffrey Gitomer in the book. Another way it reads like an encyclopedia is that the author is nearly superfluous. The examples are mostly from other authors…or other people in the field.

                Also, the scope of the book is broad, it covers an awful lot of territory. But it isn’t deep. It gives generally good advice, but doesn’t explain it in any depth. This also adds to the Compiled feel to the book.

                And, somewhere…probably a video, Gitomer talks about the old way of selling VS the new way. But in the book, offers no examples of the old way. And…to be honest, the contents of the book are pretty boiler plate techniques from the 1950s, to now. In other words, these are the old techniques.

                Gitomer talks about his experience. Although interesting, it has little to do with selling. In other words…he doesn’t mention any experience where he actually sold anything...as we think of selling. His skill is in consulting. But that is also selling. Getting a book published is selling. Speaking on a platform is selling. So, although he has no actual “sales career” experience…..it’s not like these are just theories. He had Multi Level Marketing experience….and some of the skills involved included selling. So, although he was never really a career salesman, he has been involved in the field for quite some time.

                He covers the obligatory “30 second commercial”, “Elevator speech”, and your “Mission Statement”. All of these are written in the same way I’ve seen in most sales books… In an oratory style that no human actually says to another human. For some reason, these ideas …and scripts… keep getting passed from author to author, and repeated as though they are insightful, or useful.

                The section on answering objections and closing sales was rudimentary, and again, uses dialog that is in many sales books, but would really sound clunky in a real conversation.


                “Never answer a question with “Yes” or “No”. Really? The chapter on closing is right out of Tom Hopkins book. Gitomer gives Hopkins credit for it, but there isn't anything beyond "answer a question with a question”…right out of every sales book ever written…and…really…not very effective. If you are a customer, asking a question that requires a “Yes” or “No” answer...what do you want to hear? “Yes” or “No”.

                Gitomer includes several sections from other authors. And they are useful. I think the book is almost entirely cobbled together from sales books he’s read, speeches he’s heard, and training he’s taken. Not an entirely bad approach…but it ends up being a book full of ideas that sound great, in a training class…but not as effective in an actual sales presentation.

                Another way of saying this, is that Gitomer doesn’t make deals using the bulk of the material in the book. The book is a product to sell an establish value…not to teach his sales approach. Gitomer may actually be a great salesman. He certainly is successful. But he isn't using what is taught in the book. I promise.

                OK, Now the good stuff.

                There are some gems. I suspect the book was compiled, and the Gitomer added his personal touch in places. And those places are the real value in this book.
                For example, his opening statements when cold calling (mostly in person)….some are actually pretty good. He’s funny and disarming.

                The book is designed to be used for weekly meetings. Smart, as the book will really become a “Bible’ in a sales organization…much like Tom Hopkins’ book, How To Master The Art Of Selling was and is.

                The book is laid out so every page can stand on its own, be copied, and FAXED to anyone. Lots of large print, and good graphics. A real lesson in book design, if you are writing a book to be used as a text. The obligatory, “Either You Sell The Customer On “Yes”, Or He Sells You On “No”” is very typical of what you get. Lots of bromides and Power Statements that inspire just about any salesperson. ….and of course, post your goals everywhere you can see them. I wonder how many actually do that? I wonder if Gitomer ever did that?

                The section on Referral selling is woefully incomplete, but it does tell you to take you client with you on the first meeting, which is key. And some of the dialog in this section is useful.

                For some reason, this book also includes the inevitable, “Most sales are made after the 7th ..No”.
                Really? What are you saying to the prospect that is causing him to say “No” seven times in a row? May I suggest you stop saying it. This is another example of a sales myth (originally a brand awareness advertising statistic), that gets passed around, as gospel, from sales book to sales book.

                The book gives lavish and deserved credit to the many sales authors that actually created the bulk of the book. There is quite a section on testimonials from other authors, and clients.

                This book has mass appeal to newer salespeople, and sales managers. The sales managers love it, because the book is dissected into parts perfect for sales meetings. The salespeople love it, because it covers just about every part of selling. Nothing in depth, but there is at least a few paragraphs on just about everything. It really is an Encyclopedia. And the author was smart in that he made the advice applicable to nearly any kind of selling. So everyone would get something out of it.

                I can see why someone would be impressed by this book. It's massive, and the author (when he's contributing) is funny, and there are bits of real insightful material.
                When I read Tom Hopkins book in 1981, I was already in sales for several years...but I was very impressed by that book. And the content is similar in parts.


                It sounds like I'm trashing the book. But it's not a bad sales book. It just isn't new, or different from most other sales books. If it were one of the first five I've ever read, I'd be impressed.

                Anyway, this morning, I was not going to leave the review, after spending last night reading it again. But I said I would....so here you are.



                Added a few seconds later. My copy is the 2003 edition.There are earlier and later editions. They may be different.
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                • Profile picture of the author Underground
                  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                  The Sales Bible book review.

                  The book says “Resource,” and that’s what it is. This isn’t a book written by a salesperson, explaining how to sell. It’s an encyclopedia of techniques, lists, and formulas about the sales process….and a little more.


                  First, the bad news. This book could have been written by anyone. In fact, I suspect that it was…written by a compiler of information. This doesn’t read like it was written by one person, but an assemblage of information from multiple sources. There is also very little of Jeffrey Gitomer in the book. Another way it reads like an encyclopedia is that the author is nearly superfluous. The examples are mostly from other authors…or other people in the field.

                  Also, the scope of the book is broad, it covers an awful lot of territory. But it isn’t deep. It gives generally good advice, but doesn’t explain it in any depth. This also adds to the Compiled feel to the book.

                  And, somewhere…probably a video, Gitomer talks about the old way of selling VS the new way. But in the book, offers no examples of the old way. And…to be honest, the contents of the book are pretty boiler plate techniques from the 1950s, to now. In other words, these are the old techniques.

                  Gitomer talks about his experience. Although interesting, it has little to do with selling. In other words…he doesn’t mention any experience where he actually sold anything...as we think of selling. His skill is in consulting. But that is also selling. Getting a book published is selling. Speaking on a platform is selling. So, although he has no actual “sales career” experience…..it’s not like these are just theories. He had Multi Level Marketing experience….and some of the skills involved included selling. So, although he was never really a career salesman, he has been involved in the field for quite some time.

                  He covers the obligatory “30 second commercial”, “Elevator speech”, and your “Mission Statement”. All of these are written in the same way I’ve seen in most sales books… In an oratory style that no human actually says to another human. For some reason, these ideas …and scripts… keep getting passed from author to author, and repeated as though they are insightful, or useful.

                  The section on answering objections and closing sales was rudimentary, and again, uses dialog that is in many sales books, but would really sound clunky in a real conversation.


                  “Never answer a question with “Yes” or “No”. Really? The chapter on closing is right out of Tom Hopkins book. Gitomer gives Hopkins credit for it, but there isn't anything beyond "answer a question with a question”…right out of every sales book ever written…and…really…not very effective. If you are a customer, asking a question that requires a “Yes” or “No” answer...what do you want to hear? “Yes” or “No”.

                  Gitomer includes several sections from other authors. And they are useful. I think the book is almost entirely cobbled together from sales books he’s read, speeches he’s heard, and training he’s taken. Not an entirely bad approach…but it ends up being a book full of ideas that sound great, in a training class…but not as effective in an actual sales presentation.

                  Another way of saying this, is that Gitomer doesn’t make deals using the bulk of the material in the book. The book is a product to sell an establish value…not to teach his sales approach. Gitomer may actually be a great salesman. He certainly is successful. But he isn't using what is taught in the book. I promise.

                  OK, Now the good stuff.

                  There are some gems. I suspect the book was compiled, and the Gitomer added his personal touch in places. And those places are the real value in this book.
                  For example, his opening statements when cold calling (mostly in person)….some are actually pretty good. He’s funny and disarming.

                  The book is designed to be used for weekly meetings. Smart, as the book will really become a “Bible’ in a sales organization…much like Tom Hopkins’ book, How To Master The Art Of Selling was and is.

                  The book is laid out so every page can stand on its own, be copied, and FAXED to anyone. Lots of large print, and good graphics. A real lesson in book design, if you are writing a book to be used as a text. The obligatory, “Either You Sell The Customer On “Yes”, Or He Sells You On “No”” is very typical of what you get. Lots of bromides and Power Statements that inspire just about any salesperson. ….and of course, post your goals everywhere you can see them. I wonder how many actually do that? I wonder if Gitomer ever did that?

                  The section on Referral selling is woefully incomplete, but it does tell you to take you client with you on the first meeting, which is key. And some of the dialog in this section is useful.

                  For some reason, this book also includes the inevitable, “Most sales are made after the 7th ..No”.
                  Really? What are you saying to the prospect that is causing him to say “No” seven times in a row? May I suggest you stop saying it. This is another example of a sales myth (originally a brand awareness advertising statistic), that gets passed around, as gospel, from sales book to sales book.

                  The book gives lavish and deserved credit to the many sales authors that actually created the bulk of the book. There is quite a section on testimonials from other authors, and clients.

                  This book has mass appeal to newer salespeople, and sales managers. The sales managers love it, because the book is dissected into parts perfect for sales meetings. The salespeople love it, because it covers just about every part of selling. Nothing in depth, but there is at least a few paragraphs on just about everything. It really is an Encyclopedia. And the author was smart in that he made the advice applicable to nearly any kind of selling. So everyone would get something out of it.

                  I can see why someone would be impressed by this book. It's massive, and the author (when he's contributing) is funny, and there are bits of real insightful material.
                  When I read Tom Hopkins book in 1981, I was already in sales for several years...but I was very impressed by that book. And the content is similar in parts.


                  It sounds like I'm trashing the book. But it's not a bad sales book. It just isn't new, or different from most other sales books. If it were one of the first five I've ever read, I'd be impressed.

                  Anyway, this morning, I was not going to leave the review, after spending last night reading it again. But I said I would....so here you are.



                  Added a few seconds later. My copy is the 2003 edition.There are earlier and later editions. They may be different.
                  Thanks for deciding to post this review. It's obviously a make your name book then. Kind of like some courses will teach you how to create one on a subject fast even when you have no experience.

                  I found the same kind of thing with Gitomer going through his videos. While most of it is the basics, general and fairly straightforward in providing an overall framework if lacking in specifics, but for me there are insights he provides when you know they're his insights and not just collated sales facts, which I picked up to as being his, in the same way you mentioned rather than generic info, are solid IMO.

                  There are a few things about what he is teaching that impressed me, but I won't go into them all. One area though that really impressed me from his youtube stuff and got me listening in to what he had to say, which I think might differ from the stuff in that book, was on the subject of referrals.


                  I don't want to start a debate on this as we're in agreement anyway, but would be interested in your take on it. This video impressed me, the bit where he say's why are you asking when you haven't earned anything. It's this kind of ethics, and talking about earning referrals that jumped out at me, and then his ethics in other places are similar and refreshing to me. Was this advice you disagreed with, as in was he saying the same thing in the book as in the video?


                  I admit that appealed to me on a moral basis, and having a touch of class about what you doing rather than knowing whether it would actually get more referrals in the long, although I suspect it does because you've earned their respect, but is that what you thought was woeful?

                  Again, thanks for a very comprehensive review.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                    Originally Posted by Underground View Post

                    I admit that appealed to me on a moral basis, and having a touch of class about what you doing rather than knowing whether it would actually get more referrals in the long, although I suspect it does because you've earned their respect, but is that what you thought was woeful?

                    Again, thanks for a very comprehensive review.
                    What was on this video, wasn't in the book. But it was a 2003 edition. I have no idea if this is included in later editions.

                    I get it. The video appeals to you because you see it as a matter of morality to deserve referrals...and to give before you get.

                    I agree, but not as a matter of morality, but because it's good business, and works.

                    And.....you can really get referrals from a new customers..if you propose it as a benefit to them, and not a favor to you.

                    They are doing a favor to their friends, if they provide you as a resource.

                    That's the backbone of a great referral system. And sure, it's about a third of my book on prospecting. You can get a used copy of The Sales Bible for less than a dollar on Amazon. And my book is three bucks. The books give more insight than the short videos.

                    You can ask for referrals, as though begging.....it's clumsy, awkward, and is an imposition to the customer. This is how most ask for referrals.

                    Or, you can gently allow the customer opportunities to share what you've done for them.....with a few friends. There is a world of difference between the two.

                    Honestly, if you read the section on referrals in my book...your jaw would hit the floor.....and your selling world would never be the same. And if you read Gitomer's book (the 2003 edition) you'd have a better insight into the difference.

                    It helps dramatically, if giving you referrals also feels as natural to the buyer as shaking your hand..or smiling. There is only one way I know of to do that, and I've found it.

                    The Book Beyond Referrals, by Bill Cates...outlines a fine system for doing just that. It's nearly the exact system I use and write about. A used copy is about three bucks on Amazon.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Underground
                      Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                      What was on this video, wasn't in the book. But it was a 2003 edition. I have no idea if this is included in later editions.

                      I get it. The video appeals to you because you see it as a matter of morality to deserve referrals...and to give before you get.

                      I agree, but not as a matter of morality, but because it's good business, and works.

                      And.....you can really get referrals from a new customers..if you propose it as a benefit to them, and not a favor to you.

                      They are doing a favor to their friends, if they provide you as a resource.

                      That's the backbone of a great referral system. And sure, it's about a third of my book on prospecting. You can get a used copy of The Sales Bible for less than a dollar on Amazon. And my book is three bucks. The books give more insight than the short videos.

                      You can ask for referrals, as though begging.....it's clumsy, awkward, and is an imposition to the customer. This is how most ask for referrals.

                      Or, you can gently allow the customer opportunities to share what you've done for them.....with a few friends. There is a world of difference between the two.

                      Honestly, if you read the section on referrals in my book...your jaw would hit the floor.....and your selling world would never be the same. And if you read Gitomer's book (the 2003 edition) you'd have a better insight into the difference.

                      It helps dramatically, if giving you referrals also feels as natural to the buyer as shaking your hand..or smiling. There is only one way I know of to do that, and I've found it.

                      The Book Beyond Referrals, by Bill Cates...outlines a fine system for doing just that. It's nearly the exact system I use and write about. A used copy is about three bucks on Amazon.
                      I know it's good business and works too, the giving concept, I proven that to myself time and time again over the last few years. That's one of the reasons why this guy and his overall philosophy appealed to me. I just didn't know if the claim you'd get more referrals that way rather than asking straight away was actually factual rather than anecdotal. Or if it was one of those things that 'felt right' but in reality it doesn't beat just asking right at the point of sale in purely numerical sense of what actually gains the most sales.

                      And for me, it's not as trivial to me as just feel-good morality, although being able to retain self-respect is. I want to be as successful as possible in selling. It's critical to my business that I have sales process based on being genuine and authentic and respectable, as well as strategies that are just aggressively closing orientated, because I'll be doing centres of influence marketing more than anything, and referral will make up the bulk of my customer base, but will include cold calling


                      I'm committed to learning straight line persuasion because that is ideal for cold calling, having a system like that when you are going out to people and looking to sell them directly there and then or over a few touches until they make a transaction.

                      But not in centre of influence marketing, where you are setting up agreements with anyone who can refer you to their customer base. You can't have the affectation you need for the straight-line kind of methodology based most on tonality there. I currently going through Joe Graziano's Never Ending Clients program. He's been at it for years and has built a major business just marketing to centres of influence, and any other quality material on this subject is welcome.


                      He may have started off selling second hand, stale sales advice but today, the guy's stuff is the real deal and has some good stuff to teach to at least give people flexibility in their sales arsenal, so they have the skills to adapt and can sell at those times, like in consulting type situations where the Straight Line approach would falter.

                      Saying that though, I don't hang on every word and think everything he says is fact or unquestionable. And I'm certainly glad I asked you about that area because what you've said about getting referrals at the point of sale and making sure you get a few people to contact there and then, is very intriguing and makes sense, and obviously doing it in a way where they don't lose respect but at least getting something concrete to go on there and then is something I'll be looking into.

                      What is your book called? I know you have a few. Which one are you referring to here?
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                      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                        Originally Posted by Underground View Post

                        What is your book called? I know you have a few. Which one are you referring to here?
                        Sales Prospecting. The link is in my Signature.

                        One of the keys to really getting referrals and making the whole thing work...is getting an introduction from the client. Almost every referral I've called (in the last 15-20 years) knew I was going to call, because the client talked to them before I did.

                        When I get referrals, I only want a few, best qualified, most likely to buy prospects. It really is painless for the client, and he gets to brag to his friends about his new toy/service.

                        I never call referrals cold. They are expecting my call, and are looking forward to talking to me. You'll see what I mean.

                        One thing I like about the Straight Line Method, is that the methods taught are the actual, in field, methods that are proven to work. You can use them as is, and get results.
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  • Profile picture of the author joe golfer
    Setbacks? Lawdy, I got stories. They are frustrating, but you will become better because of them. All part of your 500 fights.

    Signature
    Marketing is not a battle of products. It is a battle of perceptions.
    - Jack Trout
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  • Profile picture of the author misterme
    I've read Gitomer's books, watched his videos in the past, even got his emails for a while. And though some of what he says sounds good, I also got the sense he was removed from reality. He's like Seth Godin. They're in the business of giving sound bytes meant to motivate and maybe make you think a bit.

    Ziglar, Cardone and others with their old school sales techniques and closes... some of the principles can still apply but the reason the tactics don't go over as well with modern day clients is because those techniques were never meant for selling much more than pots and pans and cars. That's not the way you'd go about selling a hundred thousand dollar contract to a company. Can you imagine? "What a shame... a CEO like you, with such a nice expensive suit, taking pride in your appearance as befits a man of your staus... using such cheap software in your company... what a shame."
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    • Profile picture of the author Underground
      Originally Posted by misterme View Post

      I've read Gitomer's books, watched his videos in the past, even got his emails for a while. And though some of what he says sounds good, I also got the sense he was removed from reality. He's like Seth Godin. They're in the business of giving sound bytes meant to motivate and maybe make you think a bit.

      But here we are following them and a massive thread has ensued. I realized Gitomer's doing the whole personal subject-matter expert thing and content marketing.


      And he's doing it exceedingly well. What was said in the video is the reality today. Prospects on average research 6 companies online before doing business with someone. They will check out people's stuff online. We have a mind-boggling, completely illogical situation here where people are trying to adopt those very principles Gitomer is using, yet still trying to argue he's some fake or inferior salesman to the old guard, in the trenches veterans, or full of it. He sells himself and his ideas impeccably, and practises what he preaches.

      Would no one else want a social media and email list of hundreds of thousands to sell to? They really do prefer calling 500 a week to get through to a handful instead?


      If you're were on his list, you'll see how well he's branded himself across all media, built a global audience, sells to millions of people and has a very successful, long-running business. He does everything he says in the video.

      He's a far better salesman then anyone on this forum. But, even so, the whole point of posting the video was to try to balance the idea of selling on this forum against the way most people are doing it. A complete stranger calling another complete stranger with some non-differentiated service and having to work through hundreds of people to find one lead.


      It freaks me out, the cult mentality here, that from the evidence of this thread, is completely impervious to selling in any different kind of way then one that most people despise.
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      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
        Originally Posted by Underground View Post

        But here we are following them and a massive thread has ensued. I realized Gitomer's doing the whole personal subject-matter expert thing and content marketing.


        And he's doing it exceedingly well. What was said in the video is the reality today. Prospects on average research 6 companies online before doing business with someone. They will check out people's stuff online. We have a mind-boggling, completely illogical situation here where people are trying to adopt those very principles Gitomer is using, yet still trying to argue he's some fake or inferior salesman to the old guard, in the trenches veterans, or full of it. He sells himself and his ideas impeccably, and practises what he preaches.

        Would no one else want a social media and email list of hundreds of thousands to sell to? They really do prefer calling 500 a week to get through to a handful instead?


        If you're were on his list, you'll see how well he's branded himself across all media, built a global audience, sells to millions of people and has a very successful, long-running business. He does everything he says in the video.

        He's a far better salesman then anyone on this forum. But, even so, the whole point of posting the video was to try to balance the idea of selling on this forum against the way most people are doing it. A complete stranger calling another complete stranger with some non-differentiated service and having to work through hundreds of people to find one lead.


        It freaks me out, the cult mentality here, that from the evidence of this thread, is completely impervious to selling in any different kind of way then one that most people despise.
        Have you read his book The Sales Bible?
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        • Profile picture of the author Underground
          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

          Have you read his book The Sales Bible?
          No. But he wrote a poor book years ago, that's fine with me.


          I wasn't asking people to build a shrine to the sales guru Jeffrey Gitomer.


          I was saying the content itself is something people should consider. Have a online presence, a social media following. Great content.

          Particular if your going to go around calling yourself an online marketing consultant of some description.

          I've seen a few of his videos.


          The one I posted here, in terms of content and what was advised, should not be challenged like this. It's the factual reality of today's sales environment since the advent of web 2.0.


          I wouldn't buy his courses. Or ''follow him''. I got enough just from some of the vids I've seen, like the ones I've posted. He's said stuff their that is absolutely spot on.


          Like this:



          But really though, is it that common with other people, that I'm in a minority that I don't really care who's saying something. If it's insightful, factual and beneficial, then really that's all that matters to me.

          If people adopt new selling techniques, instead of just old methods that are increasingly more difficult and time consuming and yielding poor returns if the sales stats given here are the norm, they'll sell a shit load more, because they'll be getting their offers in front of way more people.


          This thread should not have even nose-dived into discussions on Jeffrey himself, and because he wasn't flawless and wasn't in the trenches, out in the pissing rain, broke, desperate and needing to make a sale, what he says is worthless.
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          • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
            Underground in bold me not in bold,


            I was saying the content itself is something people should consider. Have a online presence, a social media following. Great content.

            You are talking about the content of his videos, which are ads for his books. You are watching the ads, we are reading the product he is selling.

            Particular if your going to go around calling yourself an online marketing consultant of some description.


            Absolutely agree. In fact, what he said in the video in the first post, is absolutely true. Buyers can look you up online before they ever see you. No matter who you sell to, it's just smart business to be online, everywhere, putting your best foot forward. Just like I do. Just like Gitomer does.



            The one I posted here, in terms of content and what was advised, should not be challenged like this. It's the factual reality of today's sales environment since the advent of web 2.0.

            Again, absolutely.


            But really though, is it that common with other people, that I'm in a minority that I don't really care who's saying something. If it's insightful, factual and beneficial, then really that's all that matters to me.

            No idea if you are in the minority.

            If people adopt new selling techniques, instead of just old methods that are increasingly more difficult and time consuming and yielding poor returns if the sales stats given here are the norm, they'll sell a shit load more, because they'll be getting their offers in front of way more people.

            Actually, what Gitomer is talking about in the first video is marketing. To almost every salesman, marketing is new. It's a new concept. Incorporating marketing into my selling was the factor that gave me the biggest leap forward in income, and results. But the Marketing ideas Gitomer is talking about, in the video....are bare bones basic. These videos are designed to entice you, not instruct you. These videos are marketing. That doesn't mean that they contain no value, but the content is extremely superficial. You can't teach anything of substance in a ten minute ad for your books.


            This thread should not have even nose-dived into discussions on Jeffrey himself, and because he wasn't flawless and wasn't in the trenches, out in the pissing rain, broke, desperate and needing to make a sale, what he says is worthless.

            Nobody said that what Gitomer says is worthless. What Gitomer says on his videos isn't what's presented in the books people are paying for, however.

            And, "in the trenches, out in the pissing rain, broke, desperate and needing to make a sale" confuses me. It's the guys in the trenches, that don't give up, and learn from real life mistakes..that eventually become the business leaders...who write many of the books.

            Gitomer is selling in the video. It's good selling. In fact, it's impressive. It's just not what he teaches in his many books.

            In 2014 a new edition of The Sales Bible came out. Sometimes authors completely rewrite their books in newer editions. I haven't read the newest edition, so I don't know.
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            • Profile picture of the author Underground
              Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

              Underground in bold me not in bold,


              I was saying the content itself is something people should consider. Have a online presence, a social media following. Great content.

              You are talking about the content of his videos, which are ads for his books. You are watching the ads, we are reading the product he is selling.

              Particular if your going to go around calling yourself an online marketing consultant of some description.


              Absolutely agree. In fact, what he said in the video in the first post, is absolutely true. Buyers can look you up online before they ever see you. No matter who you sell to, it's just smart business to be online, everywhere, putting your best foot forward. Just like I do. Just like Gitomer does.



              The one I posted here, in terms of content and what was advised, should not be challenged like this. It's the factual reality of today's sales environment since the advent of web 2.0.

              Again, absolutely.


              But really though, is it that common with other people, that I'm in a minority that I don't really care who's saying something. If it's insightful, factual and beneficial, then really that's all that matters to me.

              No idea if you are in the minority.

              If people adopt new selling techniques, instead of just old methods that are increasingly more difficult and time consuming and yielding poor returns if the sales stats given here are the norm, they'll sell a shit load more, because they'll be getting their offers in front of way more people.

              Actually, what Gitomer is talking about in the first video is marketing. To almost every salesman, marketing is new. It's a new concept. Incorporating marketing into my selling was the factor that gave me the biggest leap forward in income, and results. But the Marketing ideas Gitomer is talking about, in the video....are bare bones basic. These videos are designed to entice you, not instruct you. These videos are marketing. That doesn't mean that they contain no value, but the content is extremely superficial. You can't teach anything of substance in a ten minute ad for your books.


              This thread should not have even nose-dived into discussions on Jeffrey himself, and because he wasn't flawless and wasn't in the trenches, out in the pissing rain, broke, desperate and needing to make a sale, what he says is worthless.

              Nobody said that what Gitomer says is worthless. What Gitomer says on his videos isn't what's presented in the books people are paying for, however.

              And, "in the trenches, out in the pissing rain, broke, desperate and needing to make a sale" confuses me. It's the guys in the trenches, that don't give up, and learn from real life mistakes..that eventually become the business leaders...who write many of the books.

              Gitomer is selling in the video. It's good selling. In fact, it's impressive. It's just not what he teaches in his many books.

              In 2014 a new edition of The Sales Bible came out. Sometimes authors completely rewrite their books in newer editions. I haven't read the newest edition, so I don't know.

              It must be my horrendous spelling and lack of editing posts of late that's made me look like I'm stupid and simple, which is my fault and I take responsibility because incomprehensible posts will do that, but I do understand these are content chunks put out there and not an attempt at a full sales training.

              I understand this. And I've been here since 2010, and have rarely touched a WSO in that time but have studied and applied stuff intently from real sources, and had my own door to door sales experience before that and since, and have sold for myself too. So what he was saying was nothing new to me, like it isn't for the people already doing this stuff.


              But from my experience, that's about 10 people, really combining old school and new school selling into one complete routine.

              Read any thread on any given day. You would think the only method of growing a business and generating sales is being a glorified telemarketer or door to door salesman, and swapping one job for another. Not being an entrepreneur and business owner.

              Who has built a major, legitimate social following in their market here, so they're selling to thousands at a time, without having to be there? Very few.

              It's the reason I posted the video. Because so few people actually do it, and if they did, then I'm sure their businesses would take off and they'd increase their revenues like you did.

              It's more than just marketing though. It's selling in person and through content.


              Sometimes a video with a good, sound bit of advice is all some people need to spark a thought and have them implement something.
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              • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                Originally Posted by Underground View Post

                It must be my horrendous spelling and lack of editing posts of late that's made me look like I'm stupid and simple,

                Your post was really pretty good, pretty insightful. But, one salesman to another, you need to lose that viewpoint. It's hurting your sales. I promise you.
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                • Profile picture of the author Underground
                  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                  Your post was really pretty good, pretty insightful. But, one salesman to another, you need to lose that viewpoint. It's hurting your sales. I promise you.
                  Claude, I tend to treat people in kind. I admit when you first posted here, and on a few other posts I did thing you had some axe to grind on some difference of opinion.


                  But since, I've been exasperated at having been a complete lone voice on this thread having to defend things that I don't think should even be up for debate. And it's been quite trying.

                  Actually at times in this thread very trying, with loads of people jumping in. I had to strongly make clear to people I'm not some weak, passive kind of person who would roll over and take abuse from people. Some people do roll over when the mob joins in, some don't.

                  So this topic has become pretty toxic and yes, my attitude hasn't been pleasant, fair enough. But other's haven't here either.

                  I understand what you mean, but I don't go around with a constant attitude.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                    Originally Posted by Underground View Post

                    Claude, I tend to treat people in kind. I admit when you first posted here, and on a few other posts I did thing you had some axe to grind on some difference of opinion.


                    But since, I've been exasperated at having been a complete lone voice on this thread having to defend things that I don't think should even be up for debate. And it's been quite trying.

                    Actually at times in this thread very trying, with loads of people jumping in. I had to strongly make clear to people I'm not some weak, passive kind of person who would roll over and take abuse from people. Some people do roll over when the mob joins in, some don't.

                    So this topic has become pretty toxic and yes, my attitude hasn't been pleasant, fair enough. But other's haven't here either.

                    I understand what you mean, but I don't go around with a constant attitude.
                    Good to hear. And you are right about marketing being essential to great selling.
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  • I missed the train for this thread and had to grab one of the last seats.

    So forgive me for not having a closer look at the other fine carriages filled with their words of wisdom.

    Anyway, here's what I tell clients-

    It really helps to be good at sales and persuasion.

    However, even if you are hopeless* at it- providing you have enough people to speak to...

    You should still be able to make enough sales.


    Steve


    P.S. * Hopeless - with a dash of effort becomes reasonable and with study and practise becomes good to excellent to outstanding.

    The one hurdle most people have to get over is - "It just isn't good to try and "sell" to people"

    They don't realise that we are all selling all of the time - in every conversation we have - because one way or the other we are trying to "sell" our views opinions and thoughts.
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    • Profile picture of the author momentum909
      Originally Posted by Steve The Copywriter View Post

      I missed the train for this thread and had to grab one of the last seats.

      So forgive me for not having a closer look at the other fine carriages filled with their words of wisdom.

      Anyway, here's what I tell clients-

      It really helps to be good at sales and persuasion.

      However, even if you are hopeless* at it- providing you have enough people to speak to...

      You should still be able to make enough sales.


      Steve


      P.S. * Hopeless - with a dash of effort becomes reasonable and with study and practise becomes good to excellent to outstanding.

      The one hurdle most people have to get over is - "It just isn't good to try and "sell" to people"

      They don't realise that we are all selling all of the time - in every conversation we have - because one way or the other we are trying to "sell" our views opinions and thoughts.
      You don't have to be a super, duper top salesman. You give your presentation in a professional manner, cover everything. Answer questions, let them decide. Why the need for the hard sell?
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  • Profile picture of the author momentum909
    Everyone seems obsessed about acquiring 6,00,0000,000+ new customers every year.

    How about a business that can survive on a few and a couple of new ones every year is fine?

    Nice relaxed, no churn and burn method of doing business. Old school? New school? Common sense?
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