A Naughty Way To Get A Targeted Mailing List --- For Free

9 years ago

What would be in it for the other company that is supplying you with their leads?

Just curious on how you plan to pitch this.

Cheers

Thanks
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John Lloyd 9 years ago

Basically, I'd be one of their salesmen...just using direct-mail.

They'd get more sales. I'd get a sizable commision. Even naughtier, I could keep a record of those adresses for selling related products down the line.

We'll see how it goes. But I can't see any reason why they wouldn't eat this up.
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- Chris Grable 9 years ago
  
  If direct mail produced better results than door to door... wouldn't they already be doing that?
  
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eccj

9 years ago

Originally Posted by John Lloyd

I've always wanted to take the plunge into direct-mail. But I haven't 'til now because I was weary about paying for a rotten mailing list. And I didn't have the time to compile my own.

But I was just thinking...

What if you approached one of these door-to-door sales companies?

They spend big bucks on market research and getting warm leads. You could negotiate a deal with them where you use their leads to send direct-mail pieces.

No doubt, as a half-decent copywriter, you could sell more efficiently (and on a much larger scale) than their salesmen.

I plan to approach some companies in my area with this idea. But I'm curious if anyone here on the WF has done this successfully?

Cheers,

John

Mmmm I guess it depends what they are selling but the guys I know that do D2D just pick a street with the right kind of houses and start knocking. Besides, there is nothing warm about D2D. Maybe a guy sells something and then uses his name on the other neighbors but that won't help you.

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Freebiequeen1999

9 years ago

Why would you assume that they have not looked into this themselves and probably already follow up via email and/or postal mail and or telemarketing?

No company like this is going to let you just walk in and have their database

You could sell for them...and with their permission maybe try your ideas but I think you are underestimating them JMO

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John Lloyd

9 years ago

Guys,

There are lots of companies who don't even test their advertising. And direct-response has been around for 100+ years. People don't necessarily do what they ought to...

Door-to-door is a terribly inefficient way to sell. A GOOD direct mail promotion could do the work of a 1,000 Og Mandinos.

Thanks
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eccj

9 years ago

Originally Posted by John Lloyd

Guys,

There are lots of companies who don't even test their advertising. And direct-response has been around for 100+ years. People don't necessarily do what they ought to...

Door-to-door is a terribly inefficient way to sell. A GOOD direct mail promotion could do the work of a 1,000 Og Mandinos.

You're not making sense. If they don't test their advertising then they have nothing to offer you. They don't have warm leads or millions in research. What are you going to get from them? Addresses?

If you want to do direct mail then do direct mail. Pick a product, write something up and mail it. A D2D company has nothing to offer you.

Thanks
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John Lloyd

9 years ago

Originally Posted by eccj

You're not making sense. If they don't test their advertising then they have nothing to offer you. They don't have warm leads or millions in research. What are you going to get from them? Addresses?

If you want to do direct mail then do direct mail. Pick a product, write something up and mail it. A D2D company has nothing to offer you.

I wasn't referring to door-to-door companies. I was just making a point, in general. Tested advertising is an alien concept to a lot of businesses.

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eccj 9 years ago

Originally Posted by John Lloyd

I wasn't referring to door-to-door companies. I was just making a point, in general. Tested advertising is an alien concept to a lot of businesses.

I get that but you are not thinking carefully.

Ok so these companies are selling D2D. For those products they are selling D2D is proven.

You want to sell by direct mail. Are the products you want to sell by DM proven?

You want lists from these companies. Their lists probably are not all that great thus little value for you. It is probable that they have tried DM but D2D works better, which is bad for you.

You need to sell something that is proven with DM and get a list of your market. Really you should start with your market, go to message, and then medium.

You want to do it backwards starting with medium.

Also, keep in mind that DM is not direct response. A lot of DM is a lead generator for salesmen. Unless you have a salesforce or you are working locally, you need your DM to be direct response.
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bob ross

9 years ago

Coming from a direct mail/direct response guy... D2D will outperform direct mail campaigns for the services they sell. Their systems are generally very efficient and proven over long periods of time, I don't know many D2D businesses that aren't well-systemized and highly profitable.

You can't just put some copy on a mailpiece and watch sales roll in.

Good luck selling steaks, sunrooms, roofs, windows, siding, vacuum cleaners, and magazine subscriptions solely through direct mail.

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John Lloyd

9 years ago

Originally Posted by bob ross

Good luck selling steaks, sunrooms, roofs, windows, siding, vacuum cleaners, and magazine subscriptions solely through direct mail.

Several of those things have been sold solely through direct mail.

I'm curious as to why you think door-to-door would outperform direct mail (outside some very select services). A lot of people (myself included) would never give a salesman the time of day. But I generally read my mail. It's a far less intrusive way to sell.

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bob ross

9 years ago

Originally Posted by John Lloyd

Several of those things have been sold solely through direct mail.

I'm curious as to why you think door-to-door would outperform direct mail (outside some very select services). A lot of people (myself included) would never give a salesman the time of day. But I generally read my mail. It's a far less intrusive way to sell.

No they aren't. Direct mail can warm up interest, build recognition, and generate leads, but people don't call in for those products ready to buy; they call the company and then a salesman goes out and sells it.

D2D works because the services that are sold generally require the prospect to be educated and then 'closed', of which a salesperson is best used. You'll spend thousands of dollars trying to just get one person to buy a $1,500 vaccuum from direct mail but a D2D guy can do it in one day with maybe 6-7 hours of labor.

I'd say 90% (or more) of the people who've bought from a D2D guy would say the same thing as you... they'd never give a salesman the time of day.

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misterme

9 years ago

Originally Posted by John Lloyd

Several of those things have been sold solely through direct mail.

It sounds like you're not aware of the economics underlying these types of operations. Like with steaks for example, the amount it costs to market to the first time buyer, along with the offer, usually costs the company some coin to acquire that customer... but the company knows on average a customer will spend $XXXX over their lifetime, and that's how they make it profitable.

Meantime, a sales person may not be able to fund that kind of acquisition expense. Nor want to stay employed for the length of all the customer's lifetimes to get the benefit of the return. They could go bust before they even break even.

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John Lloyd

9 years ago

Originally Posted by misterme

It sounds like you're not aware of the economics underlying these types of operations. Like with steaks for example, the amount it costs to market to the first time buyer, along with the offer, usually costs the company some coin to acquire that customer... but the company knows on average a customer will spend over their lifetime, and that's how they make it profitable.

Meantime, a sales person may not be able to fund that kind of acquisition expense. Nor want to stay employed for the length of all the customer's lifetimes to get the benefit of the return. They could go bust before they even break even.

Huh?

The guy said that vacuum sweepers and magazine subscriptions can't be sold solely via direct mail. That's blatantly false. It's been done many a time.

But interesting economics 101 red herring nonetheless...

Anyways, guys...

I was just thinking out loud, tossing an idea out there. I've never done much offline stuff, so it's not exactly my area.

If it's a silly idea, it's a silly idea. I can own it. No need to join the John-bashing brigade (correcting typos on an internet forum, really?) just because you're sexually frustrated or whatever the case may be.

p.s. Yes, the last bit was a joke.

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BigFrank

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by John Lloyd

(correcting typos on an internet forum, really?) just because you're sexually frustrated or whatever the case may be.

I think you'll find that are few things that many of us enjoy more than pointing out typos posted by copywriters. At least those of us with way too much time on our hands. :-)

My personal favorite is when I find them in their WSO copy. The sense of joy is overwhelming. It's actually a good way to release sexual frustration.

Cheers. - Frank

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John Lloyd

9 years ago

Originally Posted by BigFrank

I think you'll find that there are few things that many of us enjoy more than pointing out typos posted by copywriters. At least those of us with way too much time on our hands. :-)

My personal favorite is when I find them in their WSO copy. The sense of joy is overwhelming. It's actually a good way to release sexual frustration.

Cheers. - Frank

You missed the "there", bud.

A copywriter's end product should be typo-free, sure.

But not quickly-compiled forum posts. It's childish, and a strong indicator of asperger syndrome or some other neurosis.

@Freebie queen: English is often butchered in sales copy. Bad grammar. Incorrect spelling. Sentence fragments. Etc. It's par for the course. If you don't like it, then maybe it's not the field for you.

Then again, as an anonymous forum troll, it's kind of difficult to gather just precisely what your field is.

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BigFrank Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by John Lloyd

You missed the "there", bud.

Was just testing you, bud. Wanted to see if your observational skills surpassed your ability to construct a sentence at a 5th grade level.

A copywriter's end product should be typo-free, sure.

But not quickly-compiled forum posts. It's childish, and a strong indicator of asperger syndrome or some other neurosis.

Thank you Dr. Lloyd, but that would be 'Asperger.' Now, if you could just work on your own copy, you'll have made a good start to becoming an actual professional copywriter.

Additionally, if you were a little more observant you would find my personal mental disorder in my signature.

You need a lot of work. Your attention to detail is woefully inadequate. lol

Cheers. - Frank
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eccj 9 years ago

Originally Posted by John Lloyd

But not quickly-compiled forum posts. It's childish, and a strong indicator of asperger syndrome or some other neurosis.

So not having a typo means someone has Asperger's Syndrome?

You received some good advice but you are too much of a special snowflake to handle it.
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- John Lloyd 9 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by eccj
  
  So not having a typo means someone has Asperger's Syndrome?
  
  You received some good advice but you are too much of a special snowflake to handle it.
  
  Don't take it personally, buddy. But I don't take advice from faceless, nameless internet personas who provide no info as to their qualifications/experience --- and seem to get a hard-on arguing over minutiae in areas outside their expertise.
  
  With that said, we can let this thread die. None of us are getting any value out of it.
  
  Thanks
  
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  BigFrank Banned 9 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by John Lloyd
  
  I don't take advice
  
  There ya' go. I fixed that for you.
  
  Cheers. - Frank
  
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joe golfer

9 years ago

You'd be better off improving your copywriting by actually selling door-to-door for a few months.

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Marketing is not a battle of products. It is a battle of perceptions.
- Jack Trout

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Microniche 9 years ago

Originally Posted by joe golfer

You'd be better off improving your copywriting by actually selling door-to-door for a few months.

If your WSO is the rubric for good copy, I'd say the skill-set doesn't transfer too well.
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- joe golfer 9 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Microniche
  
  If your WSO is the rubric for good copy, I'd say the skill-set doesn't transfer too well.
  
  You made me laugh, so thanks for that. I'll take points off for calling a WFH ad a WSO, but I'll add back points for using the word "rubric," which I always thought had a cool sound, although I wouldn't use it too much in your writing. It's a $5 word.
  
  Anyway, I believe you think I am being snarky, but my suggestion was serious and is sound. Sales experience will help anyone's copywriting tremendously.
  
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  Marketing is not a battle of products. It is a battle of perceptions.
  - Jack Trout
  
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Freebiequeen1999

9 years ago

I agree with "bobross"....

one mistake I see so much around here is to constantly underestimate and negate the intelligence and skills of businesses that are not officially "internet marketers".....

John - since we are both in Florida I can name 2 door to door etc companies that have many other ways to market....1) hurricane shutters/impact windows

and 2) "help I've fallen I can't get up" alert systems and in general other security systems

I happen to know a guy who was a manager in one of the 2 large rooms they run here for the alert systems....they have people on from 8 am to midnight to call (calling west coast after our 9 pm)

they have people calling in - from tv and radio ads and direct mail pieces....from "drawings" at shows (senior expos, health expos, home and garden events)...they have drop boxes, direct mail to retirement areas...and many more ways. I think they know a bit about tracking

and then you say "They'd get more sales. I'd get a sizable commision. Even naughtier, I could keep a record of those adresses for selling related products down the line. "

apparently you really have not worked in sales - IF they would even hire you to work in their room you will have to sign a contract not to steal their leads - while "non compete" clauses are often broken, taking leads is a sure way to get on the end of a losing lawsuit

and IF you do steal their leads they have lawyers...not to mention most of these companies do share info....you will have to go to India for your next job after you pull a stunt like that around here LOL

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BigFrank

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by John Lloyd

I was weary about paying for a rotten mailing list.

I'll assume that you meant to say 'wary' and then ask why not consider purchasing from a reputable list broker such as Dun and Bradstreet?

You can either buy cheap lists that are worth nothing or quality lists that are quite expensive. D&B records that contain an opted-in email address cost $1.20 each. They guarantee an 85% delivery rate and credit you back for anything over that.

Cheers. - Frank

P.S. I think that your plan will meet stiff resistance. Many places regard their list as a valuable asset. They are loathe to part with them unless they stand to gain - big time.

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Freebiequeen1999

9 years ago

ROFLOL...."Red font and flashing arrows that hurts your eyes."

Of course that should be hurt your eyes since arrows is plural.

Then we are asked warned about treating potential customers like "morons" (not too politically correct but oh well). This is from a guy who plans to be "naughty" and steal their leads in the long run.

Really I am sorry but I don't understand the mindset of some people around here.

Imagine if you went to an internet marketer and said "hey give me your list I will direct mail them" (and steal their info while I am at it as a "naughty" ploy). Who would give you that? Just as no sales company will just hand over their list to you.

Buy a list or plan a targeted marketing to areas with EDDM that would be responsive to your offer.

Part of the problem is that many people on here really don't have much to offer in the first place. They want others to call, set up a sales process, cold call, and sell on a commission basis. Then they plan to "outsource" the actual work to "sumguy"....some guy in India.

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John Lloyd

9 years ago

Ha, Frank. You're a good laugh. With your marvellous nitpicking ability, you'd make a fine bean counter. Sounds like we've found your calling.

Actually just took a gander at your profile. You're not even a copywriter. "Telemarketing instructor". That's rich...didn't know you guys were still around.

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BigFrank Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by John Lloyd

Ha, Frank. You're a good laugh. With your marvellous nitpicking ability, you'd make a fine bean counter. Sounds like we've found your calling.

As long as I could make you laugh, at least one of us can claim that something worthwhile came from our posting. Oh, FYI 'marvelous' is misspelled, but I'm certain that you were just testing me. :-)

Actually just took a gander at your profile. You're not even a copywriter.

Never claimed to be. I'm very concerned about how I'm regarded.

"Telemarketing instructor". That's rich...didn't know you guys were still around.

Well, I should change that as I'm almost fully retired. That said, it did pay for my lakeside home, so I'm kinda proud of my successes in that field.

Oh, in case you're not aware, many things are still sold by phone. lol

Cheers. - Frank
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bizgrower

9 years ago

Working title for my new blog post:

"Why Would a Copywriter, Who is Looking for Work, Show Prospects that
He Insults People and Might Steal Their Mailing Lists?"

(350 views on the thread so far. If you hung out here more, you would be able
to tell that the participants have been there and done it. You just don't like that
their answers are not what you want to hear.)

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eccj

9 years ago

Originally Posted by bizgrower

Working title for my new blog post:

"Why Would a Copywriter, Who is Looking for Work, Show Prospects that
He Insults People and Might Steal Their Mailing Lists?"

(350 views on the thread so far. If you hung out here more, you would be able
to tell that the participants have been there and done it. You just don't like that
their answers are not what you want to hear.)

Funny. I thought about that Bad Luck Brian meme, something like "Posts question on an internet forum. Doesn't take advice from strangers."

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SnacksSays

9 years ago

Just do some research and ask around for reputable data providers. BOOM! Now you don't have to be "naughty" and do things the right way.

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A Naughty Way To Get A Targeted Mailing List --- For Free

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