No MLM Thank You!

by Mr Nice 241 replies
Hello, I've been around a bit looking for ways to make money online and I've been sucked into the MLM business which you join and then you have to get others to join by telling them how much money you make.

After looking at that its not for me. So what can I do to make money?

Does anyone have any suggestions?

What I did like about the make money online MLM programs is you get a proven sales funnel, I.E. Capture pages, Auto Responder emails.

I'm not saying MLM is bad I just don't like the MLM programs that talk about making money online. I would rather be involved in a MLM program that actually has a product a very good product that helps people or takes pain away from people.

I'm open to any suggestions.

Thank you

Mr Nice
#offline marketing #mlm
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  • Profile picture of the author myob
    Originally Posted by Mr Nice View Post

    I would rather be involved in a MLM program that actually has a product a very good product that helps people or takes pain away from people.

    I'm open to any suggestions.

    Thank you

    Mr Nice
    There at least a hundred or so MLM companies with superb products that have been around for decades.

    These companies often have some of the best training programs available anywhere, and most of it can be obtained for free from your upline.
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    • Profile picture of the author kecioilz
      Originally Posted by myob View Post

      There at least a hundred or so MLM companies with superb products that have been around for decades.

      These companies often have some of the best training programs available anywhere, and most of it can be obtained for free from your upline.
      lrt mr jabe frtails
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  • Profile picture of the author Danny Cutts
    I tried mlm many moons ago and it was pants... in fact I tried a few of the best ones and they were pants...

    Selling crap to your mates is not a business model....
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  • Profile picture of the author Randy McLean
    I know what you mean. It looks good on paper right?

    Get 3 to join, who get another 3 to join etc. But it just doesn't work like that.

    Just because you can make it work doesn't mean most others can. This leads to high attrition rates.

    I am not saying it can't work. There are some who do well with this business model. You have to be extroverted and also very patient.

    This is about sifting and sorting until you get the right people on your team. That is why MLM companies focus so much on personal development training. It is to motivate you to stay and not quit.

    They do give you capture pages but the problem is everyone else is using them too. I used to use traffic exchanges and I can't tell you how many times I have seen the same generic company pages.

    When someone actually creates their own page it will make me stop for a moment and think about what I am seeing.

    A better route is to sell products as an affiliate. You can even stay in the IM niche if you like.

    That way you are not so dependent on other people. What someone does with a product after they buy it is up to them. If they find it is not for them they can request a refund with no headaches on your end.

    There are products out there that promise to automate the process of list building as an affiliate. CB Passive Income is an example.

    And there are also great training sites like Affilorama that will help you with affiliate marketing.

    This route is much better in my opinion.
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    • Profile picture of the author myob
      Originally Posted by Randy McLean View Post

      I know what you mean. It looks good on paper right?

      Get 3 to join, who get another 3 to join etc. But it just doesn't work like that.

      Just because you can make it work doesn't mean most others can. This leads to high attrition rates.

      I am not saying it can't work. There are some who do well with this business model. You have to be extroverted and also very patient.

      This is about sifting and sorting until you get the right people on your team. That is why MLM companies focus so much on personal development training. It is to motivate you to stay and not quit.
      There are indeed some essential skill sets required to succeed in MLM (as with any business beyond a one individual model) such as leadership, organization, marketing, sales, etc.

      With less than 10% of the population possessing these critical skill sets the failure rate is of course exorbitantly high. The most successful network marketers train their downline to succeed.

      There is no affiliate training program as far as I know available at any price comparable to what can be obtained for free by multi-millionaires in many of the time-proven MLM companies. Those who fail in MLM are also likely to fail in any business.
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  • Profile picture of the author matteomatt
    Ive always shyed away from MLM programs but I tried to sell vacuums in a pyramid scheme once. I believe if you have a high internet traffic you could easily bank with MLMs, but I would say try to find one that has an actual product. It at least is better than the ones with just courses and bullshit products.

    Do heavy research about it if you decide to, because typing in "XXX MLM scam?" usually ends up with a bunch of clever advertisements. Good marketing tactic though.
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    If you would like some basic tutorials and useful info, please visit my site at www.dontsuckatmarketing.com

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  • Profile picture of the author johnben1444
    Originally Posted by Mr Nice View Post

    No MLM Thank You!
    I had same notion too like you after trying several kind of mlm and made nothing of them.

    There are certain level you reach that mlm will be good for you.

    1. If you are your own boss and control your time.

    2. If you meet lots of people everyday.

    On this ground, I pick a viable mlm that is workable and setup training session and offer help to each other because that's the spirit of succeeding in mlm. I don't just go for any one.

    I don't know which country you reside but you can look out for a peer to peer donation kind of business model and get some capital from it. Only start with capital you can afford to lose.. this alone now account for over $1k of my monthly income and it takes only 30mins of my time in 30 days.

    There are plenty of things you can do when the income starts coming in.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rory Singh
    Selling MLM or Affiliate products takes the same work and commitment. One is NOT easier than the other. Traditional MLM sucks.

    I sell 'Digital' Products online using a very powerful platform.

    And the best part about all of this is...

    I have people coming to me instead of the other way around.
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    Successful Internet Marketing Is A Process. ==>>Here Are 5 Simple Steps To Get You Started!

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    • Profile picture of the author celente
      Originally Posted by Rory Singh View Post


      I have people coming to me instead of the other way around.
      I think you hit it on the head.

      Good marketers, have people coming to them, not the other way around.

      Initially there is work to do, and things to say the right way, but done right can make you consistant sales every day. :-)
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    • Profile picture of the author myob
      Originally Posted by Rory Singh View Post

      Selling MLM or Affiliate products takes the same work and commitment. One is NOT easier than the other. Traditional MLM sucks.
      Actually, the leading causes of failure in MLM are seldom in the system. It is very different from affiliate marketing and requires much more work initially as well as a higher commitment level. The traditional view is it sucks because most people have work habits that suck.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
    MLM is... bar none... the most powerful business model
    in existence for creating leveraged wealth and residual income.

    The key, as others have said, is to find a company with legitimate
    products that people will buy even if they are not part of the money
    making plan. That's essential in the USA these days because
    regulators are cracking down on the money games. If you don't have
    real customers you don't have a real business.

    I'd be happy to chat with you if you'd like advice or direction. I've been
    successful in this business for a long time... I know the pitfalls and the
    positives. I'm always happy to share with anyone interested in this great
    profession regardless of whether they have an interest in my company.

    Tsnyder
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    If you knew what I know you'd be doing what I do...
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    • Profile picture of the author DURABLEOILCOM
      Originally Posted by Tsnyder View Post

      MLM is... bar none... the most powerful business model
      in existence for creating leveraged wealth and residual income.

      The key, as others have said, is to find a company with legitimate
      products that people will buy even if they are not part of the money
      making plan. That's essential in the USA these days because
      regulators are cracking down on the money games. If you don't have
      real customers you don't have a real business.

      I'd be happy to chat with you if you'd like advice or direction. I've been
      successful in this business for a long time... I know the pitfalls and the
      positives. I'm always happy to share with anyone interested in this great
      profession regardless of whether they have an interest in my company.

      Tsnyder
      A lot of people have been burned by scams claiming to be an MLM business. In reality they are pyramid scams that sell 0 products or services just a monthly membership fee. True MLM businesses have premium products and services that offer enrichment and quality/value to their customers life. There are many excellent examples of true MLM companies if you search for Legacy MLM companies. The training programs are the best in companies that have been around for 15+ years. MLM is great if you are willing to put in the work just like anything in life you get what you put in. There is no other business like MLM that allows you to have your own company for less than $100 start up cost. The best way to find a true MLM company is to find a product or service of premium quality/value that you are excited to use yourself and promote. Recruitment is not the primary goal of a true MLM, selling is the #1 goal.
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    • Profile picture of the author Thomas Michael
      yes exactly! I have done a lot of research, reading and found your statement come out of the mouths from everyone from trump to robins. I have given up everything and have been teaching myself everything from building a site to, well i don't even know anymore. feels like i get lost in learning too many things at once, (which is common i hear for beginners) there is just so much to learn, i will not stop untill success. This is my passion and goal. It has taken me 36yrs to understand what is needed to succeed in reaching a goal, but here I am with 3 domains to serve 3 different streams of income (purpose) and my first mlm company that meets all the guidelines needed and discussed. I am only concentrating on the network marketing mlm right now. I have already been smart enough to make my own capture page and all that. im trying new things and was taking you up on your offer of guidence. Thank you for your time..Thomas
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    • Profile picture of the author myob
      MLM is a time-proven business model and the most powerful system in existence ... bar none... for creating leveraged wealth and residual income. But when such a high performance vehicle is driven by monkeys, the inevitable outcome is predictable.
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      • Profile picture of the author aizaku
        Originally Posted by myob View Post

        MLM is a time-proven business model
        time proven scam as shown in past comments.

        This scam lives in a grey area where it is technically legal, but shunned by most.

        Originally Posted by myob View Post

        the most powerful system in existence ... bar none...
        spoken like a true charlatan, you'd make Charles Ponzi proud.

        side note: you crack me up myob, I really Laughed Out Loud here. Thanks

        Originally Posted by myob View Post

        But when such a high performance vehicle is driven by monkeys, the inevitable outcome is predictable.
        nope, MLM is more like a nice looking sports car without an engine.

        Doesn't matter what type of animal is behind the wheel; monkey, pigeon, human etc...

        It's all about the people you trick into pushing it for you.

        Eventually they end up exhausted, tired and broke.

        Originally Posted by DABK View Post

        Not proof that you did not make a convincing argument?
        amazing, you managed to ask nothing in a question.

        you gotta teach me that trick.

        all the best,
        Ike Paz
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        • Profile picture of the author DABK
          Yup, that's me, amazing.

          Originally Posted by aizaku View Post




          amazing, you managed to ask nothing in a question.

          you gotta teach me that trick.

          all the best,
          Ike Paz
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        • Profile picture of the author CpvGuru
          There is no tricking, why would you say such a thing?
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          • Profile picture of the author DABK
            It's easier than admitting he had not made as strong of a point for his position as he thought he had?

            Originally Posted by CpvGuru View Post

            There is no tricking, why would you say such a thing?
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        • Profile picture of the author myob
          Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

          time proven scam as shown in past comments.
          Agreed. There are scams in MLM just as much (or more) in IM, affiliate marketing, and in your industry.

          Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

          This scam lives in a grey area where it is technically legal, but shunned by most
          .
          Hundreds of millions in MLM disagree.

          Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

          spoken like a true charlatan, you'd make Charles Ponzi proud.
          At least 72,000 in my downline strongly disagree.

          Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

          side note: you crack me up myob, I really Laughed Out Loud here. Thanks
          No, thank you Those who are watching these posts on my webinars are getting quite a few laughs.

          Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

          nope, MLM is more like a nice looking sports car without an engine.
          My frontline, who are being so graciously entertained by you, are all driving late model sports cars. Many of them have my bumper sticker for promotions: "Don't laugh - it's paid for. Ask me how."

          Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

          Doesn't matter what type of animal is behind the wheel; monkey, pigeon, human etc...
          EPIC failure. Without the right kind of people and the proper training, a high performance vehicle usually does have the highest risk of eventually crashing and burning.

          Using your "logic", all sports cars should be banned because these types of cars cause the most accidents, injuries, and death.

          Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

          It's all about the people you trick into pushing it for you.

          Eventually they end up exhausted, tired and broke.
          Once again, you have demonstrated that you don't have a clue about what you're talking about. "Pushing" people into doing something doesn't work, and it never has worked in anything except for lazy, unmotivated low-paid hourly workers who choose to be bossed around.
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          • Profile picture of the author aizaku
            Originally Posted by DABK View Post

            It's easier than admitting he had not made as strong of a point for his position as he thought he had?
            I have no business arguing with the disillusioned. I know that now.

            Originally Posted by myob View Post

            There are scams in MLM just as much (or more) in IM, affiliate marketing, and in your industry.
            difference being, MLM has the scam built in it.

            Originally Posted by myob View Post

            Hundreds of millions in MLM disagree....At least 72,000 in my downline strongly disagree...
            I'm sure, the MLM cult-game is strong..

            can't argue there.

            Originally Posted by myob View Post

            My frontline, who are being so graciously entertained by you, are all driving late model sports cars. Many of them have my bumper sticker for promotions: "Don't laugh - it's paid for. Ask me how."
            then there is the "down" line....

            aptly named for their direction in life.

            Originally Posted by myob View Post

            Using your "logic", all sports cars should be banned because these types of cars cause the most accidents, injuries, and death.
            I had no idea sports cars were designed to crash and burn like MLM was designed to do.

            Originally Posted by myob View Post

            "Pushing" people into doing something doesn't work, and it never has worked in anything except for lazy, unmotivated low-paid hourly workers who choose to be bossed around.
            agreed, I'm sure you have to trick them first.

            Thanks,
            Ike Paz

            PS. @myob, seems like we are in total agreement.
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            • Profile picture of the author myob
              Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

              difference being, MLM has the scam built in it.
              There are marketers in every arena who are hard-wired with scam.

              Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

              I'm sure, the MLM cult-game is strong..

              can't argue there.
              Neither can I. But you would if you could.

              Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

              then there is the "down" line....

              aptly named for their direction in life.
              Merely a desperate play on words for a weak argument going "down" the tubes ....

              Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

              I had no idea sports cars were designed to crash and burn like MLM was designed to do.
              In the right hands and with proper training, both are designed to take you where you want to go.
              Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

              agreed, I'm sure you have to trick them first.
              Despite all your "I'm sure" affirmations and off the wall assumptions, you really don't seem to know much of anything for sure about this business.
              Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

              PS. @myob, seems like we are in total agreement.
              It seems to me you've now completely lost your mind. LOL!
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              • Profile picture of the author aizaku
                Originally Posted by myob View Post

                There are marketers in every arena who are hard-wired with scam.
                true, but i dont call them marketers, i call them scammers.

                I guess that makes you a "marketer" in your eyes....

                and another thing...

                ...MLM itself is a scam, regardless of the intentions of the people perpetuating it.

                that's the underlying problem i have with it.

                Originally Posted by myob View Post

                Neither can I. But you would if you could.
                i dont know where you're going with this statement, but as long as you have a reason to put on a smiley icon... then go for it..

                I imagine, you need every reason to 'convey' happiness when you're having such a difficult time with me.

                Originally Posted by myob View Post

                Merely a desperate play on words for a weak argument going "down" the tubes ....
                the argument has been over since page 2 of this thread,

                ..everything after is just a case study of a MLMer's overactive imagination..

                Originally Posted by myob View Post

                In the right hands and with proper training, both are designed to take you where you want to go.
                As long as you can get where YOU want to go....

                as for your "down" line..... oh well..

                we all know where they're going

                Originally Posted by myob View Post

                Despite all your "I'm sure" affirmations and off the wall assumptions, you really don't seem to know much of anything for sure about this business.
                that's because I'm Sure MLM is not a business but a scam.

                Originally Posted by myob View Post

                It seems to me you've now completely lost your mind. LOL!
                yet you're the one laughing when you're MLM fantasies are going up in flames all around you.

                all the best,
                Ike Paz
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                • Profile picture of the author myob
                  Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

                  MLM itself is a scam, regardless of the intentions of the people perpetuating it.

                  that's the underlying problem i have with it.
                  I once was very much like you. It took my sponsor 11 years before I could even stomach this concept. In the meantime, he became a multi-millionaire and travelled the world, building downlines in 22 countries.

                  The turning point for me was basically two things: 1). A tax seminar showing the advantages of having a home business. 2). Learning about "attraction marketing" which now has taken the concept of MLM by storm.

                  Using these concepts in my own training systems, I exceeded my sponsor's income within 4 years. And everyone who has followed this training has had success commensurate with their own motivation.
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                • Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

                  true, but i dont call them marketers, i call them scammers.

                  I guess that makes you a "marketer" in your eyes....

                  and another thing...

                  ...MLM itself is a scam, regardless of the intentions of the people perpetuating it.

                  that's the underlying problem i have with it.
                  Your underlying problem is that you believe it's a scam. It is possible that the MLMs you have been involved with, or heard about..are really scams.

                  But MLM is simply a compensation plan, and a distribution plan. It's impossible for it to be a scam, unless:
                  The claims are false
                  The product doesn't do what the company says it does
                  The distributors treat it like a scam (maybe the most probable)
                  The compensation plan is set up to cheat the distributors out of their profits (I have seen this in a few plans)

                  Some beginner companies can actually be a scam. I had a friend that showed me the compensation plan, and it paid out 125% of the money the company took in. For some reason, rational thought never entered my friend's mind, even after I pointed out the impossibility of the plan working. Sure enough, the company folded, he lost thousands, and learned nothing from the experience.

                  But the big companies, with hundreds of thousands of distributors? Not a scam.

                  You can hate MLM, you can think it's a Ponzi scheme, but there are real distributors making money over a long period of time. And the companies are lasting for decades.

                  You can call them scammers, but that's just the way you view them, it isn't a fact.

                  People who make lots of money in MLM simply have qualities that you do not possess. I don't possess them either,

                  But they aren't negative qualities. Persistence, patience with non-salespeople, babysitting their downline, being able to be positive even after they are only making $50 a month, at the end of their first year. And picking a company that you can actually succeed with.
                  It's just not me. And it's apparently not you either.


                  This argument reminds me of the guy that continually says that cold calling to sell, never works....while people actually making money with it are posting at the same time.

                  Humans.
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                  • Profile picture of the author DABK
                    You do me too much honor, sir!

                    Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

                    Im sure I have, something can be learned from the simplest of creatures.

                    yoyotoshi yo,
                    Ike Paz
                    Reminds me of a mortgage broker I met 3 years ago. He told me he'd try internet marketing and it doesn't work in the mortgage world. Two hours earlier my first mortgage client call me jumping with joy because he'd just closed the first deal he got off the internet (It helped that he made almost 2 times his average on this loan... that was a fluke, could have been a lot less... Nonetheless... One guy swears it doesn't work; not that he cannot make it work, another one makes money).

                    Sigh! Peeps! Sigh!

                    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post


                    This argument reminds me of the guy that continually says that cold calling to sell, never works....while people actually making money with it are posting at the same time.

                    Humans.
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                    • Profile picture of the author aizaku
                      Originally Posted by myob View Post

                      I once was very much like you. It took my sponsor 11 years before I could even stomach this concept. In the meantime, he became a multi-millionaire and travelled the world, building downlines in 22 countries.
                      Never claimed people don't make money from it.

                      Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                      But MLM is simply a compensation plan, and a distribution plan. It's impossible for it to be a scam...
                      I don't see how using euphemisms and default biases helps your case...

                      at risk of repeating myself.... the only thing I believe in, is that the idea of exponential profit growth ( "leveraging" your downline) is more attractive than selling a product to a customer.

                      this will more than likely corrupt MLM "associates".

                      as for "hate", I don't hate anything... but it does sadden me to see what MLM does to people..


                      Originally Posted by DABK View Post

                      Reminds me of a mortgage broker I met 3 years ago. He told me he'd try internet marketing and it doesn't work in the mortgage world. Two hours earlier my first mortgage client call me jumping with joy because he'd just closed the first deal he got off the internet (It helped that he made almost 2 times his average on this loan... that was a fluke, could have been a lot less... Nonetheless... One guy swears it doesn't work; not that he cannot make it work, another one makes money).
                      Again, I'm sure some folks make money from MLM.... it's in the manner of 'how' they do it that gets me.

                      ---
                      Listen gents, there is a reason why this thread was moved from it's original section. MLM exists on the extreme fringes of legitimacy.

                      I think Claude almost had it when he said...

                      Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                      It isn't MLM I dislike, it's the bulk of the people it attracts. Non-businesspeople who are looking for "something for nothing'
                      I'd like to take this one step further and ask why folks want to be part of a MLM company..

                      it's because the promise of exponential profit growth via downline recruitment...

                      that's what makes MLM inherently corrupt

                      2017 here we come!
                      Ike Paz
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                      • Profile picture of the author myob
                        Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

                        Never claimed people don't make money from it. ...
                        Respecfully, it's clearly not for everyone. But for many of us right here on the Warrior Forum, MLM has been the fastest route to a richly rewarding lifestyle of independence, personal growth, and fulfillment.

                        The same best practices of sales and marketing used in IM and affiliate networks are transferable and fully compatible with legitimate MLM programs.

                        I have found that MLM provides a means of leveraging one's efforts by a potential factor of tens of thousands of iterations, and even more, without having to hire employees.

                        In my not so humble opinion, there is no other business model with as much potential leverage, ROI, or opportunity with such minimal risk as MLM.

                        Particularly with the more mature MLM companies, the systems, management, and training are proven and well-seasoned. Compared to the price of "going it alone", or worse - paying some random unknown "guru", the training available in MLM is priceless.
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                        • Profile picture of the author aizaku
                          ok, now we're just on a loop.....


                          if you're repeating yourself for the sake of those scrolling around then rock out!


                          usually I come to this thread with a nice cup of coffee,

                          ...being that tomorrow is the new year we start the new morning with beer and/or rice wine.

                          hopefully my tipsy eyes will be greeted with some fresh perspectives.

                          ...whatever the case..

                          have a Happy New Year..

                          and to all a safe and fun night.,
                          Ike Paz


                          Originally Posted by myob View Post

                          Respecfully, it's clearly not for everyone. But for many of us right here on the Warrior Forum, MLM has been the fastest route to a richly rewarding lifestyle of independence, personal growth, and fulfillment.

                          The same best practices of sales and marketing used in IM and affiliate networks are transferable and fully compatible with legitimate MLM programs.

                          I have found that MLM provides a means of leveraging one's efforts by a potential factor of tens of thousands of iterations, and even more, without having to hire employees.

                          In my not so humble opinion, there is no other business model with as much potential leverage, ROI, or opportunity with such minimal risk as MLM.

                          Particularly with the more mature MLM companies, the systems, management, and training are proven and well-seasoned. Compared to the price of "going it alone", or worse - paying some random unknown "guru", the training available in MLM is priceless.
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                          • Profile picture of the author myob
                            Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

                            ok, now we're just on a loop.....

                            hopefully my tipsy eyes will be greeted with some fresh perspectives.
                            That's not likely to happen anytime soon for you. There is nothing new about the concept of MLM as a time-proven and very effective business model.

                            As I mentioned in a previous post, it took me 11 years to get over some very bad experiences I had with a major MLM company (Amway).

                            But it wasn't the fault of the marketing system. Like many otherwise solid companies, poorly trained sponsors recruit poorly prepared people who have no other qualifications than being able to fog a mirror and produce a pulse.

                            The cycle typically spirals downward into failure and disappointment, followed by bitter dissociation then total aversion towards an entire industry.

                            Thanks to my good friend who never gave up on me for 11 years, and by example demonstrated the most powerful marketing system ever devised; exponential growth through duplication of a few simple marketing steps.

                            Congrats to my team for another year of record sales and the achievements of my newest members on the leader boards. Keep up the good work; we're posed for yet another prosperous New Year!
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                      • Originally Posted by aizaku View Post


                        at risk of repeating myself.... the only thing I believe in, is that the idea of exponential profit growth ( "leveraging" your downline) is more attractive than selling a product to a customer.

                        this will more than likely corrupt MLM "associates".
                        I agree that most people are in MLM because of the idea of making money off of other people's efforts. and some distributors go too far in their claims, to recruit.

                        And you are right. the idea of making money (get rich quick) is more attractive than selling product. But that's the same in any business. Selling is simply a means to an end. And nobody would be in business, if it depended on your love of selling.

                        Selling product is unattractive to all but a few. And it's a foreign concept to most non-businesspeople (the bulk of MLM recruits). It's the possibility of making lots of money that drives MLM recruiting...but it also drives every new business...and every job applicant.




                        Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

                        as for "hate", I don't hate anything... but it does sadden me to see what MLM does to people..

                        The American Dream Denied: Herbalife Victims Speak Out - YouTube

                        I don't know how to say it, except to say it plainly. These people (in the video) should never have invested in any business. It isn't that Herbalife is a bad company, it's that completely unqualified people are joining, with the fantasy of making money...without actually selling anything.

                        It may be the fault of the recruiting distributor, or it may be that the new distributor is fooling themselves. I used to get that quite a lot when I hired salespeople. New people would hear the "You can make a lot of money" part, and ignore the "Here is the work you have to do" part.

                        The major MLM companies plainly...plainly state all their policies in their literature.


                        Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

                        Again, I'm sure some folks make money from MLM.... it's in the manner of 'how' they do it that gets me.
                        How do they make money? The same way every other company makes money. They sell products/services through distributors/retailers to the end user. And thy grow the same way every other company does, they add people that produce sales.

                        They sell wholesale to distributors, who then resell to end users. In a typical retail sale, 50% of the retail price is profit. In MLM that 50% is simply divided among the people in the organization..the ones that helped build the company.


                        Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

                        I'd like to take this one step further and ask why folks want to be part of a MLM company..

                        it's because the promise of exponential profit growth via downline recruitment...

                        that's what makes MLM inherently corrupt

                        2017 here we come!
                        Ike Paz
                        No. It is not inherently corrupt. It is, however more susceptible to ignorant distributors who make impossible claims, and promise what can't be delivered. There is no qualification to join an MLM, no vetting, no references are checked, like in most business arrangements/hiring/distributor agreements.

                        If you could open a retail store, and set up suppliers....as easily as you could join an MLM...the business would be full of people who make impossible claims, fail to produce, and lose thousands of dollars, because they shouldn't have started the business in the first place. It is the "ease of entry" in MLM that sets up disappointment for people not suited to it.

                        In every MLM I've seen, with one exception, the corruption was at the distributor level. And it's impossible to clean up.....because most people in MLM are not business people, and have no idea how to run a business.

                        So you get the "our toothpaste cures cancer" and "No selling involved" claims...by distributors, not companies.
                        Companies aren't making these claims, some distributors are. Some distributors (like employees) are simply bad.

                        But saying MLM itself is a corrupt idea, shows a bad experience (or three) on your part, it isn't reality. It's like saying retail is corrupt, because someone wouldn't give you a refund, at the local shoe store.

                        In every major MLM company I've seen, if you follow what the company suggests, and use the tools they provide...and have a responsible upline.....these "fantasy claims" and complaints of unfairness would mostly disappear.

                        It isn't the MLM idea..or even the companies, it's the easy of entry for people seeking something for nothing. In fact, new people will think it's "Something for nothing" even when everything is explained in full...it's just human nature.

                        And blaming a supplier for your personal failure...is also human nature. And that's why see see these videos.


                        I gave it my best shot.
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            • Profile picture of the author DABK
              Oh, Grasshopper, I've taught you something. I am so happy!

              Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

              I have no business arguing with the disillusioned. I know that now.



              Thanks,
              Ike Paz

              PS. @myob, seems like we are in total agreement.
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  • Originally Posted by Mr Nice View Post

    Hello, I've been around a bit looking for ways to make money online and I've been sucked into the MLM business which you join and then you have to get others to join by telling them how much money you make.

    After looking at that its not for me. So what can I do to make money?

    Does anyone have any suggestions?

    What I did like about the make money online MLM programs is you get a proven sales funnel, I.E. Capture pages, Auto Responder emails.

    I'm not saying MLM is bad I just don't like the MLM programs that talk about making money online. I would rather be involved in a MLM program that actually has a product a very good product that helps people or takes pain away from people.

    I'm open to any suggestions.

    Thank you

    Mr Nice
    Good to see the Kool-Aide did not fit with you , I would look around the forum and the sub forums find something that appeals to you and search more on here and Google

    MLM is mostly for the ones who start them they make the money , there are much better ways to make money on line

    Don't rush into the next great fad do some research and talk to other who have done what you have been looking at BUT stay away from MLM waste of time.

    Good Luck

    Jason
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    • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
      Originally Posted by Regional Warrior View Post

      Good to see the Kool-Aide did not fit with you , I would look around the forum and the sub forums find something that appeals to you and search more on here and Google

      MLM is mostly for the ones who start them they make the money , there are much better ways to make money on line

      Don't rush into the next great fad do some research and talk to other who have done what you have been looking at BUT stay away from MLM waste of time.

      Good Luck

      Jason
      You're certainly entitled to your opinion but not a single thing you posted is fact.
      Signature
      If you knew what I know you'd be doing what I do...
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  • Profile picture of the author DABK
    So, you've seen good funnels, you understand why you need one, so what's the problem?

    You now know what to do. You now need to find a crowd hungry for something, find that something they're hungry for and sell it to them.

    Take a look at this, to get a better idea about how it's done:
    http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...idea-make.html
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  • Profile picture of the author CpvGuru
    Hi I actually work with a few MLMs that has great products and very low cost to start.

    What type of products are you looking for? I can point you to one as there are many. Direct sales is the future, but not everyone wants to run a business doing it.
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    • Profile picture of the author myob
      The MLM industry is booming, with record sales in just about any major network marketing company.

      The company I've been involved with for over 20 years has been growing explosively.

      There is a place for affiliate marketing, but for real growth and continuity, the training available in the MLM industry for those with limited business experience is second to none.

      There is nowhere else that a truly motivated newbie can be trained literally by groups of mult-millionaires who have a direct vested interest in their success.
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  • Profile picture of the author Danny Cutts
    I am sorry... but I have never met anyone that has made any real money in MLM and the ones that say they do have been full of BS....

    Someone show me some real evidence and I will change my mind...
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    • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
      Originally Posted by Danny Cutts View Post

      I am sorry... but I have never met anyone that has made any real money in MLM and the ones that say they do have been full of BS....

      Someone show me some real evidence and I will change my mind...
      I know hundreds of people who have earned millions in this profession.

      I can direct you to a couple websites where you can listen to hours
      and hours of interviews with those who have done it and are willing to
      explain in detail exactly how they did.... and you won't find a second of
      hype in any of them.

      I doubt you're seriously interested... and I'm not in the business of convincing
      anyone or trying to change anyone's mind... but let me know if you'd like the links

      This profession hasn't lasted since 1946 with no one earning any money. That's kinda silly.
      Signature
      If you knew what I know you'd be doing what I do...
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      • Profile picture of the author Danny Cutts
        Originally Posted by Tsnyder View Post

        I know hundreds of people who have earned millions in this profession.

        I can direct you to a couple websites where you can listen to hours
        and hours of interviews with those who have done it and are willing to
        explain in detail exactly how they did.... and you won't find a second of
        hype in any of them.

        I doubt you're seriously interested... and I'm not in the business of convincing
        anyone or trying to change anyone's mind... but let me know if you'd like the links

        This profession hasn't lasted since 1946 with no one earning any money. That's kinda silly.
        I dont believe websites... I want to hear genuine people

        I have a great business and lead an exciting life doing very little so I am good at the moment
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      • Profile picture of the author CpvGuru
        [DELETED]
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        • Profile picture of the author myob
          Originally Posted by CpvGuru View Post

          what do you do?
          My apologies for not responding to your PM. It's just my own policy to reduce duplication of effort. I made a huge amount of money selling Amazon and other affiliate products through content marketing over the years, with a gradual infusion of MLM for diversification. Now my focus is more on marketing training programs to other network marketers and developing core business/leadership skills of my downline.
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          • Profile picture of the author CpvGuru
            That is awesome man! Are you open to new MLMs?

            I am newer to MLMs but have two that are successful one that you may really be open to that pays massive commissions. Maybe you know some people who are hungry and can tap into this?

            I love the leadership development I am learning here, even more leadership skills than I learned in the Marines.
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            • Profile picture of the author myob
              Originally Posted by CpvGuru View Post

              That is awesome man! Are you open to new MLMs?

              I am newer to MLMs but have two that are successful one that you may really be open to that pays massive commissions. Maybe you know some people who are hungry and can tap into this?

              I love the leadership development I am learning here, even more leadership skills than I learned in the Marines.
              Somehow I just knew this was coming.

              Thank you for your service in the Marines, but this method of a recruiting attempt is what gives MLM a bad reputation and the results are always dismal.

              In addition to working with your mentor and top marketers in your upline, I recommend you pick up a copy of "Go Pro" by Eric Worre (available on Amazon) and perhaps also a few books written by Tom "Big Al" Schreiter. All the best.
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              • Profile picture of the author aizaku
                Originally Posted by CpvGuru View Post

                That is awesome man! Are you open to new MLMs?

                I am newer to MLMs but have two that are successful one that you may really be open to that pays massive commissions. Maybe you know some people who are hungry and can tap into this?
                hungry? what type of hunger are you referring to?

                the need to make money to support a family?

                or actual hunger?

                Originally Posted by myob View Post

                Somehow I just knew this was coming.

                Thank you for your service in the Marines, but this method of a recruiting attempt is what gives MLM a bad reputation and the results are always dismal.
                how else would a business focused on expanding the down line recruit? I'm sure his attempts to recruit you or your downline resources are exemplary.

                -Ike Paz
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                • Profile picture of the author myob
                  Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

                  how else would a business focused on expanding the down line recruit? I'm sure his attempts to recruit you or your downline resources are exemplary.
                  Exemplary? This method fails 99% of the time. Those who try this kind of tactic are almost always the ones who whine and complain that MLM is a pyramid scam.
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                  • Profile picture of the author aizaku
                    Originally Posted by myob View Post

                    Exemplary? This method fails 99% of the time.
                    oh really? I didn't know.... There must be a better way to expand your down line

                    Originally Posted by myob View Post

                    Those who try this kind of tactic are almost always the ones who whine and complain that MLM is a pyramid scam.
                    no one here is whining or complaining (well, maybe the OP just a bit..)

                    it's just that, if you're going to post on a confectionery forum claiming that $h1t tastes like chocolate because it shares a similar hue and texture.

                    then dont be surprised when actual chocolatiers call bull $h1t.

                    best of luck,
                    Ike Paz
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                    • Profile picture of the author myob
                      Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

                      oh really? I didn't know.... There must be a better way to expand your down line
                      There are many much more effective ways to build a MLM downline than encouraging spam. We call it "networking", which can be leveraged both online and offline. But of course, it should be expected that you wouldn't know anything about that.
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                • Profile picture of the author CpvGuru
                  Good morning, replies inline below

                  Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

                  hungry? what type of hunger are you referring to?

                  the need to make money to support a family?

                  or actual hunger?

                  The type that will make someone do something they normally would not. What ever it takes (legally and ethically) to break out of the rat race.



                  how else would a business focused on expanding the down line recruit? I'm sure his attempts to recruit you or your downline resources are exemplary.

                  Thank you I did not see WF as a place to recruit so much but man I saw the thread and figured there must be some winners in here - It is interesting learning about this industry. it really teaches a ton about character and sadly the lack of in so many people.

                  -Ike Paz
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                  • Profile picture of the author myob
                    Originally Posted by CpvGuru View Post

                    I did see WF as a place to recruit so much but man I saw the thread and figured there must be some winners in here - It is interesting learning about this industry. it really teaches a ton about character and sadly the lack of in so many people.
                    Hang in there! There really are some decent people here on the WF, but mentioning the term "MLM" overtly brings out the beast in most people, as you have seen so overwhelmingly.

                    This forum (as well as many other niche-relevant forums) actually are excellent places to recruit. There really are a lot of us MLM-ers here (some on this very thread), but you need to be discreet about promoting it.

                    Seriously, consider looking over the resources I mentioned previously. Build a list using non-MLM oriented marketing such as affiliate products, then mention your business opportunity deeper in the funnel system.
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                    • Profile picture of the author CpvGuru
                      Originally Posted by myob View Post

                      Hang in there! There really are some decent people here on the WF, but mentioning the term "MLM" overtly brings out the beast in most people, as you have seen so overwhelmingly.

                      This forum (as well as many other niche-relevant forums) actually are excellent places to recruit. There really are a lot of us MLM-ers here (some on this very thread), but you need to be discreet about promoting it.

                      Seriously, consider looking over the resources I mentioned previously. Build a list using non-MLM oriented marketing such as affiliate products, then mention your business opportunity deeper in the funnel system.
                      thank you so much, I actually meant - I did not see --
                      Here is our funnel we are having great success on Social Media!
                      lifelibertyadvocates.com

                      I will check out your mentions, I have so much to learn still.

                      We have a Mens Leadership meeting tonight as well for one of the organizations It's been a ton of fun.
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                    • Profile picture of the author James_w
                      Originally Posted by myob View Post

                      Hang in there! There really are some decent people here on the WF, but mentioning the term "MLM" overtly brings out the beast in most people, as you have seen so overwhelmingly.

                      This forum (as well as many other niche-relevant forums) actually are excellent places to recruit. There really are a lot of us MLM-ers here (some on this very thread), but you need to be discreet about promoting it.

                      Seriously, consider looking over the resources I mentioned previously. Build a list using non-MLM oriented marketing such as affiliate products, then mention your business opportunity deeper in the funnel system.
                      now that's some damn good advice! WF should have a like button
                      Signature

                      Make $495 Per Day Selling Turnkey Websites for the Food Industry!
                      http://turnkeywebsites.net.au/make-money/

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              • Profile picture of the author CpvGuru
                It's no worries man

                I rarely see an MLM post on WF - I work in online advertising been doing that for 15 years. I just started network marketing a year ago and love it so far. It has totally changed how I look at the world, in a good way!

                I thought I would run it by you, but it's ok man sounds like you have plenty of success where you are.
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                • Profile picture of the author myob
                  Originally Posted by CpvGuru View Post

                  I rarely see an MLM post on WF.
                  These MLM threads pop up every now and then, but quickly get spammed by whining weanies, trolls, and other critters trying to sell their crap to other failing knuckleheads. Certainly not a place to recruit for your MLM business.
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                • Originally Posted by CpvGuru View Post

                  It's no worries man

                  I rarely see an MLM post on WF - I work in online advertising been doing that for 15 years. I just started network marketing a year ago and love it so far. It has totally changed how I look at the world, in a good way!

                  I thought I would run it by you, but it's ok man sounds like you have plenty of success where you are.
                  Yep the reason is that MLM is not seen on here as a viable MMO its more offline oh and its full of SHONKS %98 of the time
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    • Profile picture of the author myob
      You obviously really don't get around much. There's over 1,400 MLM companies in the US, and about 10,000 worldwide with $200+ billion in combined sales.

      Of course do your own due diligence in research to find one, and join under someone who is already living the lifestyle you want. They are out there, but most people just don't have the desire to do what they do.
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    • Profile picture of the author CpvGuru
      Originally Posted by Danny Cutts View Post

      I am sorry... but I have never met anyone that has made any real money in MLM and the ones that say they do have been full of BS....

      Someone show me some real evidence and I will change my mind...
      I have watched my mentor go from making $12K per month to $80K per month in 18 months in an MLM.
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      • Profile picture of the author DABK
        The FTC (Federal Trade Commission) makes a distinction between pyramid schemes and MLS's and between pyramid schemes pretending to be MLM's and MLS, according to an article in Chicago Tribune: The fine line between legitimate marketing and pyramid scheme - tribunedigital-chicagotribune.

        Basically, it comes down to how money is made. Presumably, if you can make money just by selling a product, it's not a pyramid. If you can make money only if you sell memberships, it's a pyramid.

        Why my post?

        Because it seems to me that some people are not agreeing on the definition and we end up with a lot of useless discussion.

        Perhaps the people arguing the most should state what their definition of an MLM is.

        If I join MLM x, that sells item z at $100 and $20 is mine and if I can sell 1000 units a month, is that considered me making $20x1000=$20,000, i.e., me making money, i.e., me not being involved in pyramid scheme? How is that worse than me selling 1000 units as an affiliate making $20/sale? Or a direct seller who sells 1000 units and whose profit is $20 on each sold unit?

        Or, are the people saying MLM's are always a scam saying there are no MLM's where you can sell products but don't have to sell memberships/create downlines?

        Oh, yeah; Here's the link to a FTC's page about how to tell an MLM from a pyramid scheme: https://www.sec.gov/investor/alerts/ia_pyramid.htm.

        Not part of an MLM, not interested in joining one, but logic allows for MLM's that are not pyramid schemes and the FTC says what logic allows does, indeed, exist in real life (otherwise their advice would be to stay away from all, not to look at this and compare that...
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        • Profile picture of the author discrat
          Originally Posted by DABK View Post

          The FTC (Federal Trade Commission) makes a distinction between pyramid schemes and MLS's and between pyramid schemes pretending to be MLM's and MLS, according to an article in Chicago Tribune: The fine line between legitimate marketing and pyramid scheme - tribunedigital-chicagotribune.

          Basically, it comes down to how money is made. Presumably, if you can make money just by selling a product, it's not a pyramid. If you can make money only if you sell memberships, it's a pyramid.
          That definitely is a good point.

          But I can tell you there has been some MLMs that you could definitley make money selling their Products. And their Products were actutally half decent. But they were still shut down as Pyramid schemes.

          I remember NSA purifiers and water filters as one. It was shut down and deemed as a Pyramid scheme.

          The thing with NSA my brother got me to join and he tried to convince me to buy front end merchandise.....to start out on a higher Commission Rate as a Diamond Distributor or something like that.(you had to buy 5k in inventory to get to that Level then you had a high commission on sales to anyone else.)

          But there were many people who made a lot of money just going to families and selling NSA water filter and purifiers as a part of a home system. They were half decent products.

          But like I said they were still shut down as a Pyramid


          P.S. A little bizarre why this Thread got removed from Main Forum. I mean sure a lot of MLM is still conducted face to face in Offline World, but even a non-MLMer like me knows that for quite a few years now the Internet has continued to be a really strong avenue to pursue this Model. Some people may want to get with the times
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          • Originally Posted by discrat View Post

            That definitely is a good point.

            But I can tell you there has been some MLMs that you could definitley make money selling their Products. And their Products were actutally half decent. But they were still shut down as Pyramid schemes.

            I remember NSA purifiers and water filters as one. It was shut down and deemed as a Pyramid scheme.

            The thing with NSA my brother got me to join and he tried to convince me to buy front end merchandise.....to start out on a higher Commission Rate as a Diamond Distributor or something like that.(you had to buy 5k in inventory to get to that Level then you had a high commission on sales to anyone else.)

            But there were many people who made a lot of money just going to families and selling NSA water filter and purifiers as a part of a home system. They were half decent products.

            But like I said they were still shut down as a Pyramid
            That reminds me of Ecoquest air purifiers. An MLM where I made some real money selling the products. In fact, the hole company was built on actually selling the products, which were several hundred dollars each. Real retail profit built in.

            But they also stressed front end loading. I think a first order average a few thousands dollars. Most people never sold the units they got on their first order. In fact, I made several hundred thousand dollars over a year or so, simply advertising that I would buy the dealer's stock, that was just sitting in their garage (at a huge discount of course). Then I advertised the air purifiers out of my store at a slight discount from regular prices.

            I don't know if Ecoquest was shut down, but I never hear of them as an MLM anymore, I just see their stuff on Amazon.

            But I know several people that have made real incomes from various MLMs. But these are people that would make money with anything...they just had strong work ethics, integrity, and were willing to sell.
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        • Profile picture of the author aizaku
          Originally Posted by myob View Post

          We call it "networking", which can be leveraged both online and offline. But of course, it should be expected that you wouldn't know anything about that.
          wasn't POP "networking" in his post?

          I heard it from a tiny little bird that "networking" can be done online and offline..

          again, i wouldnt know the details about that ...since little birds often fly way over my head, singing their songs...

          ...to their detriment, spending little time grounded in reality

          Originally Posted by CpvGuru View Post

          The type that will make someone do something they normally would not. What ever it takes (legally and ethically) to break out of the rat race.
          What ever it takes but legally and ethically? then its not 'what ever' it takes, is it?

          but then again, these are the people you want.. the 'what ever it takes' kind.

          Originally Posted by CpvGuru View Post

          It is interesting learning about this industry. it really teaches a ton about character and sadly the lack of in so many people.
          couldnt agree more ;-)

          Originally Posted by DABK View Post

          Or, are the people saying MLM's are always a scam saying there are no MLM's where you can sell products but don't have to sell memberships/create downlines?
          exactly

          without the downline then it's just direct selling.

          the incentivized recruitment and the incentivized recruitment of their recruit's recruits (and so on and so on) is where the "multi level" comes in.

          and its also where the evil pops out....

          the other platforms you mentioned are all product focused

          lets take affiliate marketing for example...

          as an affiliate, i make a commission on what i sell, I'm not incentivized to turn my customer into my rep, nor am i incentivized to have my customer recruit others..

          why? because you dont want to lose focus on the product..

          the moment you make the product a buy in requirement is the moment you become a con man/woman

          in the ftc url you provided the fifth bullet for determining whether or not a company is MLM or a pyramid scheme is "required buy in"

          Yet, the biggest and most profitable purely MLM companies (all FTC regulated btw: amway, herbalife, nu skin) have been guilty of this..

          but all they have to do is agree to a settlement and they're scot-free...

          The FTC is a governing body and they make it legal, but it's by no means ethical..

          the inherent problem with MLM is it's downline.

          sooner or later. the downline will undoubtedly turn the product into a buy in..

          It happens with MLM as shown above..

          I understand "is" and "has" don't guarantee "will"

          but if a new shampoo came out tomorrow and they decided to use the MLM model then the shampoo company will MORE THAN LIKELY turn into a pyramid scheme.

          Why? diffused responsibility and good ol' human greed

          There is a reason why if you type in multi level marketing into google you get this:
          Multi-level marketing (MLM), also called pyramid selling, network marketing, and referral marketing, is a controversial pyramid-shaped marketing strategy where profit is theoretically derived from two revenue streams: from a sales force of a participating salesperson compensated via the direct sales generated by the...
          happy holidays,
          Ike Paz
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          • Profile picture of the author myob
            Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

            wasn't POP "networking" in his post?
            Not even close.
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          • Profile picture of the author DABK
            No, POP was not networking in his post. In a nutshell, networking is creating relationships with others by being helpful.

            Counter MLM definition:
            What is 'Multi-Level Marketing'

            Multi-level marketing is a strategy that some direct sales companies use to encourage their existing distributors to recruit new distributors by paying the existing distributors a percentage of their recruits' sales; the recruits are known as a distributor's "downline." All distributors also make money through direct sales of products to customers. Amway is an example of a well-known direct-sales company that uses multi-level marketing.
            BREAKING DOWN 'Multi-Level Marketing'

            Multi-level marketing is a legitimate business strategy, though it is controversial. One problem is pyramid schemes, which use money from new recruits to pay the people at the top, often take advantage of people by pretending to be engaged in legitimate multi-level marketing. Pyramid schemes can sometimes be spotted by their greater focus on recruitment than on product sales.
            Legitimacy of Multi-Level Marketing

            At issue in determining the legitimacy of a multi-level marketing company is whether its products are sold primarily to consumers or to its members who must recruit new members to buy their products. If it is the former, the company is deemed a legitimate multi-level marketer. If it is the latter, it could be operating a pyramid scheme, which is illegal. The Federal Trade Commission (FTC) has been investigating multi-level companies for several decades and has found many that blur the lines between the two. According to industry data, there are 90 million members worldwide, but relatively few earn meaningful income from their efforts. To some observers, that reflects the characteristics of a pyramid scheme.(Multi-Level Marketing Definition | Investopedia)


            and one from the FTC:

            There are multi-level marketing plans and then there are pyramid schemes. Before signing on the dotted line, study the companys track record, ask lots of questions, and seek out independent opinions about the business.

            In multilevel or network marketing, individuals sell products to the public often by word of mouth and direct sales. Typically, distributors earn commissions, not only for their own sales, but also for sales made by the people they recruit.


            Not all multilevel marketing plans are legitimate. If the money you make is based on your sales to the public, it may be a legitimate multilevel marketing plan. If the money you make is based on the number of people you recruit and your sales to them, its probably not. It could be a pyramid scheme. Pyramid schemes are illegal, and the vast majority of participants lose money. (https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/busi...evel-marketing).


            Let's establish that I understand what an MLM is. My question was, if someone recruits me and I recruit nobody but still make $20k a month (because I sell 1000 items that make me $20 each), how is that a pyramid scheme?


            I understand the FTC is a legal body. Still, if in an MLM I make $500 a month from my downline and $20k a month from selling their products, that's not a pyramid scheme in my opinion. So, my question is: are you saying that no such thing exists and what are you basing it on?


            By the way, why do you think the FTC is saying they're illegal? Because they think they're ethical?


            My point with you is this: you make strong statements that do not seem to take into account the entire world you're talking about. If you had said, most are pyramid schemes, I'd have no issue. But you say all are. And that's another thing... and you are not supporting it. You are supporting this: People are greedy, lots of MLM's are run by greedy and unethical people who turn them into (or create them as) pyramid schemes.


            Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

            wasn't POP "networking" in his post?

            but if a new shampoo came out tomorrow and they decided to use the MLM model then the shampoo company will MORE THAN LIKELY turn into a pyramid scheme.

            Why? diffused responsibility and good ol' human greed

            There is a reason why if you type in multi level marketing into google you get this:
            Multi-level marketing (MLM), also called pyramid selling, network marketing, and referral marketing, is a controversial pyramid-shaped marketing strategy where profit is theoretically derived from two revenue streams: from a sales force of a participating salesperson compensated via the direct sales generated by the...
            happy holidays,
            Ike Paz
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            • Profile picture of the author aizaku
              sorry but you can't word salad your way out of this.

              also, please be respectful of other people's time, a lot of what you've said has already been covered in this thread.

              Originally Posted by DABK View Post

              No, POP was not networking in his post. In a nutshell, networking is creating relationships with others by being helpful.
              you just made that up, there is no such prerequisite that you 'need to be helpful' in order to network.

              so yes, he was networking.. him being effective or not is another matter entirely

              Originally Posted by DABK View Post

              Let's establish that I understand what an MLM is.
              there is no shame in not knowing

              but it seems like you don't understand 'what MLM is' by the example you gave:

              Originally Posted by DABK View Post

              if someone recruits me and I recruit nobody but still make $20k a month (because I sell 1000 items that make me $20 each), how is that a pyramid scheme?
              then 'you' (mr. 20k) are not MULTI-LEVEL marketing, that's called direct marketing.

              you are not leveraging multiple levels of reps so you're not multi level marketing

              it's explicit in the title,

              just because i use a soccer ball to play kick ball, doesnt make me a soccer player.

              Originally Posted by DABK View Post

              if in an MLM I make $500 a month from my downline and $20k a month from selling their products, that's not a pyramid scheme in my opinion. So, my question is: are you saying that no such thing exists and what are you basing it on?
              I couldn't answer your bolded questions since they were poorly constructed and have loose connections with the example you gave.

              as for your opinion, well it's short sighted,

              the $20k has nothing to do with the multi leveling marketing part.

              your downline however will help to alter the product into a buy-in requirement for the reasons i stated in my last post.

              you can't assume how your reps will participate in your MLM company,

              but you can assume that you will profit either way from your reps (downline and/or product)

              if your rep or your rep's rep can exponentially grow his/her bottom line by recruiting more reps and having them recruit more reps..

              ...then what's a more attractive incentive; a one off product sell or exponential growth of the downline.

              believe it or not, you can run a successful ice cream parlor and a loan sharking business under the same roof.

              it seems that you're unable to take a nuanced perspective on this.

              Originally Posted by DABK View Post

              By the way, why do you think the FTC is saying they're illegal? Because they think they're ethical?
              i dont know what you're reading in my last post...

              the FTC deemed the three examples/companies I gave as legal.

              that being said, they all have histories of 'buy in requirements'

              5th pyramid scheme hallmark: https://www.sec.gov/investor/alerts/ia_pyramid.htm

              hence the settlements with the FTC

              happy holidays,
              Ike Paz

              PS in the future, please tighten up your points. Be more concise
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              • Profile picture of the author myob
                Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

                how else would a business focused on expanding the down line recruit? I'm sure his attempts to recruit you or your downline resources are exemplary.
                Hmmmm....

                Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

                you just made that up, there is no such prerequisite that you 'need to be helpful' in order to network.

                so yes, he was networking.. him being effective or not is another matter entirely
                So you would say that gratuitous spamming is an "exemplary" part of networking?

                Originally Posted by aizaku View Post


                then 'you' (mr. 20k) are not MULTI-LEVEL marketing, that's called direct marketing.

                you are not leveraging multiple levels of reps so you're not multi level marketing
                Selling retail from within a MLM company does not negate the concept. Mr. 20k would be retailing, and his upline gets a portion of the retail price. In addition, any retail customer could potentially become a distributor which does leverage the levels of reps.

                Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

                I couldn't answer your bolded questions since they were poorly constructed and have loose connections with the example you gave.
                You couldn't answer the bolded questions because they don't fit your convoluted arguments.

                Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

                the $20k has nothing to do with the multi leveling marketing part.
                On the contrary, retail marketing is an integral and legally required part of MLM, as explained above.

                Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

                your downline however will help to alter the product into a buy-in requirement for the reasons i stated in my last post.
                This is illegal, and will result in termination by just about any MLM company these days.

                Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

                you can't assume how your reps will participate in your MLM company,
                You must insist they follow your lead. Duplication of the established and proven marketing system is essential for success.

                Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

                PS in the future, please tighten up your points. Be more concise
                Good advice; you do the same.
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                • Profile picture of the author aizaku
                  Originally Posted by myob View Post

                  So you would say that gratuitous spamming is an "exemplary" part of networking?
                  where in any post above do you see "gratuitous spamming as being exemplary" for networking.

                  ....AH I see, so you're saying that POP wasn't networking because of his lack of persistence? Is that right?

                  Originally Posted by myob View Post

                  Selling retail from within a MLM company does not negate the concept. Mr. 20k would be retailing, and his upline gets a portion of the retail price.
                  useless drivel...

                  Yes myob, this is understood by everyone here.

                  again, you're missing the salient point.

                  Originally Posted by myob View Post

                  You couldn't answer the bolded questions because they don't fit your convoluted arguments.
                  my argument is pretty straight forward.

                  you not understanding is a different story

                  Originally Posted by myob View Post

                  On the contrary, retail marketing is an integral and legally required part of MLM, as explained above.
                  i understand, its part of the MLM con.

                  its a way to give MLM the appearance of legitimacy

                  Originally Posted by myob View Post

                  This is illegal, and will result in termination by just about any MLM company these days.
                  nope, a majority of MLM "companies" run illegally they just haven't been prosecuted.

                  The FTC is essentially playing a big game of whack-a-mole..

                  the big MLM companies can pay a settlement and "promise" to be product focused, as mentioned in my posts

                  while the smaller MLM "companies" go out of business

                  Originally Posted by myob View Post

                  You must insist they follow your lead. Duplication of the established and proven marketing system is essential for success.
                  "insist" ....that's adorable....

                  Originally Posted by myob View Post

                  Good advice; you do the same.
                  I should, unfortunately i have to repeat myself for the hard of hearing and use simplistic analogies for the slow-witted.

                  happy holidays,
                  Ike Paz
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                  • Profile picture of the author myob
                    Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

                    "insist" ....that's adorable....
                    As are "exemplary" and "salient point".

                    Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

                    I should, unfortunately i have to repeat myself for the hard of hearing and use simplistic analogies for the slow-witted.
                    So do tell, using simplistic analogies, how you could raise what the hard of hearing and slow-witted among us consider to be spam to the level of "exemplary" networking? Does persistent spamming make this method more effective? I submit you have a total misconception of the legitimate MLM model, as the example you so glowingly admire is among the leading causes of failure among marketers in general and specifically for MLM beginners as mentioned also by the OP.
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                    • Profile picture of the author aizaku
                      Originally Posted by myob View Post

                      Does persistent spamming make this method more effective?
                      I couldn't say.

                      I have no experience with the methods you use to trick people into your downline..

                      Originally Posted by myob View Post

                      legitimate MLM.
                      you went from adorable to hilarious

                      drop the MLM shenanigans and get yourself a mic and a stage...

                      happy holidays,
                      Ike Paz
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                      • Profile picture of the author CpvGuru
                        I've never tricked anyone into my downline, they may have told themselves they would be willing to do the work, but in reality they were not.

                        I always tell people that it's not easy and it's work, but it is worth it.
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                        • Profile picture of the author aizaku
                          Originally Posted by CpvGuru View Post

                          I've never tricked anyone into my downline, they may have told themselves they would be willing to do the work, but in reality they were not.

                          I always tell people that it's not easy and it's work, but it is worth it.
                          i believe it..

                          you're just a product of the MLM business.

                          best of luck,
                          Ike Paz
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                          • Profile picture of the author CpvGuru
                            Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

                            i believe it..

                            you're just a product of the MLM business.

                            best of luck,
                            Ike Paz
                            What do you mean? When I sold gym memberships it was the same thing. Some will change their lives but most will continue to couch surf. It's not up to me it's up to them. Do you think gyms are a pyramid?

                            You're being overly cynical here and I"m not sure why
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                            • Profile picture of the author myob
                              Originally Posted by CpvGuru View Post

                              You're being overly cynical here and I"m not sure why
                              He's just "networking" to promote his sig file. You need to do the same, only with a better call to action.
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                              • Profile picture of the author aizaku
                                Originally Posted by myob View Post

                                He's just "networking" to promote his sig file. You need to do the same, only with a better call to action.
                                definitely an added benefit..

                                but please believe me when i say,,

                                i really do enjoy waking up with a nice cup of coffee and watching you react to me..

                                all the best,
                                Ike Paz

                                PS i agree with the call to action, still testing..
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                                • Profile picture of the author Zodiax
                                  One of the things that I don't like about mlm is that you have to sell your friends and family- what if I want to sell total strangers.
                                  Signature

                                  'I hated every minute of training, but I said, 'Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion'
                                  -Muhammad Ali

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                                  • Profile picture of the author myob
                                    Originally Posted by Zodiax View Post

                                    One of the things that I don't like about mlm is that you have to sell your friends and family- what if I want to sell total strangers.
                                    A common mistake is for new distributors to make a list of family, friends, acquaintances, and anyone else they know who has a pulse.

                                    A far more effective approach is to build lists of qualified prospects using proven business marketing practices and sales.

                                    Despite what far too many misguided MLM recruiters try to tell you, this business requires core skills, including the ability to sell.
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                                    • Originally Posted by myob View Post

                                      A common mistake is for new distributors to make a list of family, friends, acquaintances, and anyone else they know who has a pulse.

                                      A far more effective approach is to build lists of qualified prospects using proven business marketing practices and sales.

                                      Despite what far too many misguided MLM recruiters try to tell you, this business requires core skills, including the ability to sell.
                                      I'm always amazed by that. Why would anyone assume that their friends or relatives are interested in starting their own business?

                                      Even when I was selling vacuums in people's homes, it took me years before I talked to any relatives. There are just sooo many people out there that are far more likely to buy.

                                      But in MLM, many beginners (and most upline, who are also beginners) think seeing relatives and friends is the way to go. I suppose because there is less stress, talking to people you know.

                                      And one way to guarantee that your friends and relatives will avoid you...is to invite them to your home for "dinner", and bring out the easel and start drawing circles.
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                                      • Profile picture of the author Ron Lafuddy
                                        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                        I'm always amazed by that. Why would anyone assume that their friends or relatives are interested in starting their own business?

                                        Even when I was selling vacuums in people's homes, it took me years before I talked to any relatives. There are just sooo many people out there that are far more likely to buy.

                                        But in MLM, many beginners (and most upline, who are also beginners) think seeing relatives and friends is the way to go. I suppose because there is less stress, talking to people you know.

                                        And one way to guarantee that your friends and relatives will avoid you...is to invite them to your home for "dinner", and bring out the easel and start drawing circles.
                                        Aha! So, you've done this before?
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                                        • Originally Posted by Ron Lafuddy View Post

                                          Aha! So, you've done this before?
                                          HA! No. It's one of the few stupid things that I haven't done.

                                          But I have been to two of these. One with my wife's cousin, an one from a friend of mine.

                                          My wife's cousin? I stayed, because the repercussions of being rude and leaving...wouldn't be worth it (former wife's cousin)

                                          But I was invited by a friend of mine, and I got there and there were about 6 other couples.

                                          Out came the samples and board. I said something like "We're still friends, because you don't know any better...but don't ever do this to me again". And my wife and I walked out.


                                          Originally Posted by joe golfer View Post

                                          But a young guy rolled up to my house to try to talk me into it. He was driving a really old beat up old Chevy — no offense to that, I have myself — but it was such a disconnect from the pitch day.
                                          If he were smart, he would have used his car as a selling point.
                                          "See that car out there? It embarrasses me to drive it. It shows the world that I'm not successful in life. But that is the last car like that I'll ever drive...because I'm just starting out...and I'm not going to quit. And if you let me work with you...I'll never quit on you either"

                                          In selling, always use what you have.
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                                      • Profile picture of the author myob
                                        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                        And one way to guarantee that your friends and relatives will avoid you...is to invite them to your home for "dinner", and bring out the easel and start drawing circles.
                                        You've probably heard this before; my sponsor told me this decades ago when I was a greenie in MLM:

                                        The story goes that Samson killed 1,000 men with the jawbone of an ass. Nowadays, thousands of sales are killed every day with the same weapon.

                                        The upshot here is don't chase your friends and family around. When they see your success, let them come to you.
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                                      • Profile picture of the author socialentry
                                        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                        I'm always amazed by that. Why would anyone assume that their friends or relatives are interested in starting their own business?
                                        Most people project their own wants unto others.

                                        It's the only perspective they understand and the only one that makes sense for them.
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                                        • Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

                                          Most people project their own wants unto others.

                                          It's the only perspective they understand and the only one that makes sense for them.
                                          True, but I think it's a different motivation.

                                          Most people new in MLM are non-business people. And they don't see it as a business opportunity. They are believers in the idea that "recruit and others will make sales for you...and make you money...while you do nothing".

                                          My Son-in-law (my wife's daughter's husband) got involved in an MLM when long distance services were a common product. He came over, explained the program....

                                          It was a fee of $495 to get started, and 25 cents a minute for long distance. I was paying about 15 cents a minute at the time.

                                          I explained that I was already paying less than that, and didn't need to pay a huge fee to get started.

                                          He said, "I thought you would want to help us out".

                                          You see, it had nothing to do with benefiting us. It wasn't that he had a better deal. It was because he wanted to make his commission, and thought I would build his downiine for him "Because you're a businessman".

                                          I asked him how much he got of the money I paid. He said it was (I think) $50 of the $495, and a cent a minute on the long distance.

                                          I said "So, you want me to pay someone $495....so you make $50? Why don't I just give you $50?'

                                          It isn't MLM I dislike, it's the bulk of the people it attracts. Non-businesspeople who are looking for "something for nothing'
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                                      • Profile picture of the author CpvGuru
                                        LOL

                                        I totally agree, there is one difference, in one of the MLMs I am in the information is so good that I want to share it with everyone. IT has absolutely changed my life and I am totally OK introducing it to my friends and family. But other ones I work in not so much.
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                                        • Profile picture of the author Ron Lafuddy
                                          Originally Posted by CpvGuru View Post

                                          EXACTLY! My mentor drove a 2002 taurus while he was making $30K a month - he refused to get a new car until he hit his goal. Now he drives a ridiculous Jag
                                          I hope he gave you a good deal when he sold it to you.

                                          Originally Posted by CpvGuru View Post

                                          LOL

                                          I totally agree, there is one difference, in one of the MLMs I am in the information is so good that I want to share it with everyone. IT has absolutely changed my life and I am totally OK introducing it to my friends and family. But other ones I work in not so much.
                                          You're over the top with the hype. Any serious candidate is going to be turned off by that approach. That leaves, as Claude has said, those who can't sell and are looking for Easy. Good luck with that crowd.

                                          Ron
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                                          • Profile picture of the author CpvGuru
                                            You're funny -

                                            I'm not over hyping anything the information saved my family.

                                            And I"m not pitching anything here RE that - I'm sharing the benefits that I received from it.

                                            I would never drive a ford LOL
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                                            • Profile picture of the author eccj
                                              Originally Posted by CpvGuru View Post

                                              You're funny -

                                              I'm not over hyping anything the information saved my family.

                                              And I"m not pitching anything here RE that - I'm sharing the benefits that I received from it.

                                              I would never drive a ford LOL
                                              Whoa..... Easy there. Now we are just getting crazy.
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                                            • Originally Posted by CpvGuru View Post

                                              You're funny -

                                              I'm not over hyping anything the information saved my family.

                                              And I"m not pitching anything here RE that - I'm sharing the benefits that I received from it.

                                              I would never drive a ford LOL
                                              I drove a new Thunderbird every couple of years ...every year they were made, because my Dad worked at Ford Motor Company. It was one way I honored him.

                                              And yet, I make a good living, far more than I need.

                                              It fascinates me how some get their sense of value.

                                              Do you want to know the most popular vehicle driven by millionaires making a million or more per year? A Chevy truck.

                                              Do you know who spends all the money on cars and clothes and going out? People who sell to people like me. They think it will impress me. You know what would really impress me? Delivering on promises. Keeping your word. Showing some extra effort.

                                              Of course, maybe I should note...I'm 62 years old. Truth be told, I'll probably buy one more car my entire life. Probably a Ford.
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                                              • Profile picture of the author socialentry
                                                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                                Do you want to know the most popular vehicle driven by millionaires making a million or more per year? A Chevy truck.

                                                Do you know who spends all the money on cars and clothes and going out? People who sell to people like me. They think it will impress me. You know what would really impress me? Delivering on promises. Keeping your word. Showing some extra effort.

                                                Of course, maybe I should note...I'm 62 years old. Truth be told, I'll probably buy one more car my entire life. Probably a Ford.
                                                Do you judge people by their appearances?

                                                Not morally, but let's when appraising say a prospect(or even a random passerby), I mean can you infer clues about character/values/world views/intentions/etc by the cars/clothes/appearance they have?
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                                                • Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

                                                  Do you judge people by their appearances?

                                                  Not morally, but let's when appraising say a prospect(or even a random passerby), I mean can you infer clues about character/values/world views/intentions/etc by the cars/clothes/appearance they have?

                                                  In selling, I can tell very little about a person by the way they appear, or how they dress.

                                                  And only in the most obvious way, can I tell anything by the car they drive. For example, if they drive a 15 year old beater that is rusted out, and is full of trash, that tells me something.

                                                  But I can tell quite a lot by the way someone walks, how they look at you, posture, body gestures. These are things you can't really hide, and they tell a lot about their confidence level, how they perceive themselves, and their (self assigned) position in society.

                                                  And just a few words out of their mouth, I can tell how intelligent they are (usually) and if they have a sense of humor. Those are the things I really look for.

                                                  When I was selling in people's homes, an old car (that looked bad) meant bad credit, almost always. When someone walks into my store, I can guess, with about 80% accuracy, if they have a Kirby vacuum cleaner. It's not important how, but they have several things in common.

                                                  In selling? Where they live, and what their car looks like are about all I look at.
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                                              • Profile picture of the author Ron Lafuddy
                                                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                                I drove a new Thunderbird every couple of years ...every year they were made, because my Dad worked at Ford Motor Company. It was one way I honored him.

                                                And yet, I make a good living, far more than I need.

                                                It fascinates me how some get their sense of value.

                                                Do you want to know the most popular vehicle driven by millionaires making a million or more per year? A Chevy truck.

                                                Do you know who spends all the money on cars and clothes and going out? People who sell to people like me. They think it will impress me. You know what would really impress me? Delivering on promises. Keeping your word. Showing some extra effort.

                                                Of course, maybe I should note...I'm 62 years old. Truth be told, I'll probably buy one more car my entire life. Probably a Ford.
                                                I have a hunch that a particular 2002 Ford Taurus might be available soon.
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                                              • Profile picture of the author CpvGuru
                                                I am a toyota guy - Easy to run 200K on a TOY and never have a major issue. Ford was great for a long time!
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                                    • Myob;

                                      You had this response in post #80 when I made a statement about most people in MLM not being able to sell.

                                      Originally Posted by myob View Post

                                      This method actually is ideal for those who can't sell. Unlike any other form of marketing, there are layers of people with a vested interest in their downlines' success.
                                      But now I see in post #118 you had this to say.

                                      Originally Posted by myob View Post

                                      Despite what far too many misguided MLM recruiters try to tell you, this business requires core skills, including the ability to sell.
                                      Can you explain changing your tune here? I'm not trying to discredit you, just trying to see what you think about the ability to sell in MLM. Thanks.
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                                      • Profile picture of the author myob
                                        Originally Posted by mobilemarketer2012 View Post

                                        Can you explain changing your tune here? I'm not trying to discredit you, just trying to see what you think about the ability to sell in MLM. Thanks.
                                        This is not a "change in my tune". Far too many misguided MLM recruiters say network marketing is not selling. They'll say for example you're doing something like "sharing", "telling", or some other distracting euphemism. Then once the victim signs up (often buying some overpriced "sharing" kit with product samples), most often they just get stuck with products they can't sell and slick but useless marketing supplies.

                                        MLM has been proven to be a very powerful and effective marketing concept for at least the past 70 years or so. It has produced countless multi-millionaires world-wide and continues to do so. Anyone, regardless of education or experience, can be in business for themselves with a modest investment, which includes training systems, minimal inventory, generous income tax advantages, no employees, and an incredible leverage advantage not found in any other business model. Not even an affiliate program can come close to the potential earning power of MLM.

                                        So why is there such a high failure rate of network marketers in every MLM company? Admittedly, this industry attracts a lot of scammers, fraudsters, and short-sighted schemers. But the biggest failures are because of the mindset and unrealistic expectations of those attracted by its low cost of entry and virtually unlimited potential. Network marketing is actually quite simple (not easy), but easily attracts lazy people who don't know how to network nor market.

                                        As I responded to one particularly persistent detractor in this thread, there is nothing wrong with being ignorant. I was totally ignorant about business in general when I joined under my sponsor more than 20 years ago. I learned how to sell as well as to network, market, and run a business. No one was ever born with the ability to sell, although for some it may come easier than others. But if you refuse to learn the core skills required for success, you can't expect to be successful. If one can't get this training from a direct sponsor (or recruiter), there are always people upline who can help. Every MLM company has people who achieved high levels of success.

                                        Selling, as well as networking and marketing are absolutely critical skills to learn for any business, and in particular for MLM. The biggest advantage with MLM is you can learn these core skills from those who have a vested interest in your success. This is why MLM actually is ideal for those who are ambitious yet have no selling or business experience. Having said that, 90%+ of the people in MLM have no business being in this industry, and perhaps would be better off in a job with a boss on their ass.
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                            • Profile picture of the author aizaku
                              Originally Posted by myob View Post

                              thanks in part to your persistently ignorant arguments, the concept of networking and MLM is getting more exposure. (This is true networking in action)
                              hey listen, any way i can help.....

                              if someone reads through this thread and decides to sign up to an MLM program.

                              well then, that's heart-breaking darwinism in action.

                              Originally Posted by CpvGuru View Post

                              What do you mean? When I sold gym memberships it was the same thing. Some will change their lives but most will continue to couch surf. It's not up to me it's up to them. Do you think gyms are a pyramid?

                              You're being overly cynical here and I"m not sure why
                              forgive me, but I don't know what you're on about... "gyms being pyramids" and all

                              ....putting aside the "right" amount of cynicism

                              I just don't understand why myob won't hear you out.

                              you claim to be a stand-up guy with a solid work ethic.. and You seem to be communicating your MLM program to another MLMer on this thread.

                              i say networking, others say spam.

                              how am I the cynical one?

                              maybe it's my innocence and/or ignorance, but I don't understand why myob is so adverse to someone like you.

                              best of luck,
                              Ike Paz
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                              • Profile picture of the author CpvGuru
                                I am a noob at MLM only been about a year now. I've been profitable but genuinely love what I do. That said If I insulted you I am sorry. I guess it's just that I've been in your shoes perhaps. I was very very off put by MLMs and found them not worth my time. But seeing results that I have in people in both my down and up lines I have changed my mind. They are great vehicles for success for those driven. Yes there are shady people in MLMS just like there are out side of MLMs but that does not make all MLMs bad. An MLM affords someone the opportunity to have the rewards of an entrepeneur without the risks. It really is a unique proposition. I have no problem defending it as a profession. Though it is not yet my profession. I have much to learn.
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                                • Profile picture of the author aizaku
                                  all joking aside

                                  it breaks my heart when MLM ensnares seemingly good people like you.

                                  i really do mean that...

                                  i hope you come out of this unscathed..

                                  all the best,
                                  Ike Paz

                                  Originally Posted by CpvGuru View Post

                                  I am a noob at MLM only been about a year now. I've been profitable but genuinely love what I do. That said If I insulted you I am sorry. I guess it's just that I've been in your shoes perhaps. I was very very off put by MLMs and found them not worth my time. But seeing results that I have in people in both my down and up lines I have changed my mind. They are great vehicles for success for those driven. Yes there are shady people in MLMS just like there are out side of MLMs but that does not make all MLMs bad. An MLM affords someone the opportunity to have the rewards of an entrepeneur without the risks. It really is a unique proposition. I have no problem defending it as a profession. Though it is not yet my profession. I have much to learn.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author myob
                                    Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

                                    hey listen, any way i can help.....

                                    if someone reads through this thread and decides to sign up to an MLM program.

                                    well then, that's heart-breaking darwinism in action.
                                    Appreciate all the help. You're doing a fantastic job!

                                    Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

                                    ....putting aside the "right" amount of cynicism

                                    I just don't understand why myob won't hear you out.

                                    you claim to be a stand-up guy with a solid work ethic.. and You seem to be communicating your MLM program to another MLMer on this thread.

                                    i say networking, others say spam.

                                    how am I the cynical one?

                                    maybe it's my innocence and/or ignorance, but I don't understand why myob is so adverse to someone like you.
                                    First of all, he sent me a PM promoting his MLM which I ignored, since I get a lot of such promotions by amateurs anyway. Now take a look at the exchanges between us beginning with his post #50. That is blatant spamming. If you consider that "networking", then perhaps you can't even begin to understand the real reason why there is such a high failure rate among MLM "networkers".

                                    Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

                                    but please believe me when i say,,

                                    i really do enjoy waking up with a nice cup of coffee and watching you react to me..
                                    Likewise.

                                    Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

                                    all joking aside

                                    it breaks my heart when MLM ensnares seemingly good people like you.

                                    i really do mean that...

                                    i hope you come out of this unscathed..
                                    Don't you worry about him so much anymore. He's going to be just fine.
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                                    • Profile picture of the author aizaku
                                      hey myob,

                                      seems like you're running out of words between quotes... or maybe you're trying to be concise...

                                      I appreciate you accommodating me..

                                      that being said, this saddens me a bit:

                                      Originally Posted by myob View Post

                                      First of all, he sent me a PM promoting his MLM which I ignored, since I get a lot of such promotions by amateurs anyway. Now take a look at the exchanges between us beginning with his post #50. That is blatant spamming. If you consider that "networking", perhaps you can begin to understand why there is such a high failure rate among MLM "networkers".
                                      come on man! why are you explaining yourself??

                                      what happened to this myob:

                                      Originally Posted by myob View Post

                                      I usually am right, as we've just seen in this thread.
                                      Get the old myob back here!

                                      dont go out on me now...

                                      Disappointed,
                                      -Ike Paz
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                                      • Profile picture of the author myob
                                        Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

                                        dont go out on me now...

                                        Disappointed,
                                        You should have known by now, my posts aren't for your benefit. I've been bantering with knuckleheads like you in these types of threads going on for over 14 years now. My downline gets trained, and we enjoy some comedy.
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                                        • Profile picture of the author aizaku
                                          well then..

                                          The "competitor's nightmare" has been exposed as a whimsical daydream...

                                          Originally Posted by myob View Post

                                          My downline gets trained, and we enjoy some comedy.
                                          I think you meant, "you" enjoy some comedy....

                                          Heaven forbid your downline gets wind on how they're getting fleeced

                                          I imagine to keep your con going you must constantly train them but never teach...

                                          all the best,
                                          Ike Paz
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                                          • Profile picture of the author myob
                                            Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

                                            I imagine to keep your con going you must constantly train them but never teach...
                                            The training I'm referring to is applying what they've already been taught. For example, thanks to you and several other unenlightened contributors here, they can see why our initial marketing must be focused on individual branding rather than our company or even the products.

                                            So what else you got? You seem to be losing your former inflammatory fervor.
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                                            • Profile picture of the author aizaku
                                              Originally Posted by myob View Post

                                              The training I'm referring to is applying what they've already been taught..... they can see why our initial marketing must be focused on individual branding rather than our company or even the products.
                                              there you go explaining yourself again...

                                              you have your moments, then you gotta ruin it all by all this backpedaling

                                              "what i meant to say was.. blah blah" Come on!

                                              Originally Posted by myob View Post

                                              So what else you got?
                                              your undying attention

                                              Originally Posted by myob View Post

                                              You seem to be losing your former inflammatory fervor.
                                              no no, you got me all wrong.... I was never a fan of stepping on ants.

                                              I'm just observing you and your kind build your pyramid-type ant hill.

                                              all the best,
                                              Ike Paz
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                                  • Profile picture of the author CpvGuru
                                    Thanks man!

                                    The information from one MLM has save my relationship, made me a better parent and allowed Angela and I to finally discuss finances with out an argument. I'd be a customer even if I never made another penny.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author dgaunn4114
                                    The thing that pisses most people off about MLMs, and the consumers of poor internet marketing products, is their tendency for hype and bait and switch marketing. Advertise easy 10K/month work at home job, deliver a commission only grind where you must buy product first before selling it, and reveal how little you care about your friendships by selling them your [expletive] over-priced products.

                                    For those who've been in them, it goes much deeper. Not only are you paying money for the product to distribute, but you will get absolutely dumped on for asking any kind of near suspicious question, and they will never admit an iota of fault. Didn't meet your goals? Your a lazy piece of poop. Didn't want to open your address book to your boss? Are you actually serious about hitting your desired income? The sales "training" is utter crap and tells you to cold call random people about the latest nutritional supplement? You're not "making it work for you."

                                    Question their scummy sales tactics, the fact that everyone sells their same product cheaper, etc? Question their broken promises about training? And you are told you are being ungrateful.

                                    There is a level of control that is cult-like in many MLMs. You will be ostracized if you leave, and hated by those on the outside whom you tried to sell to. They may actively encourage you to cut off any one who "doesn't understand" the "business" you are in, including close family members, and this is done purposefully so that your only source of validation is those you get from the people in your group for selling product.

                                    Let me say this as directly as I can: everything an MLM does is done for the sole purpose of sucking as much money as possible out of their "independent distributors" to hell with the broken hearts, promises, friendships and families that they leave in their wake.

                                    They pray on the naivety, insecurity, greed, gullibility and other human frailties to make a buck. They are, essentially, cults of money.

                                    And in my mind, MLMs should all be illegal as pyramid schemes by another name.
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                                    • Originally Posted by dgaunn4114 View Post

                                      The thing that pisses most people off about MLMs, and the consumers of poor internet marketing products, is their tendency for hype and bait and switch marketing. Advertise easy 10K/month work at home job, deliver a commission only grind where you must buy product first before selling it, and reveal how little you care about your friendships by selling them your [expletive] over-priced products.

                                      For those who've been in them, it goes much deeper. Not only are you paying money for the product to distribute, but you will get absolutely dumped on for asking any kind of near suspicious question, and they will never admit an iota of fault. Didn't meet your goals? Your a lazy piece of poop. Didn't want to open your address book to your boss? Are you actually serious about hitting your desired income? The sales "training" is utter crap and tells you to cold call random people about the latest nutritional supplement? You're not "making it work for you."

                                      Question their scummy sales tactics, the fact that everyone sells their same product cheaper, etc? Question their broken promises about training? And you are told you are being ungrateful.

                                      There is a level of control that is cult-like in many MLMs. You will be ostracized if you leave, and hated by those on the outside whom you tried to sell to. They may actively encourage you to cut off any one who "doesn't understand" the "business" you are in, including close family members, and this is done purposefully so that your only source of validation is those you get from the people in your group for selling product.

                                      Let me say this as directly as I can: everything an MLM does is done for the sole purpose of sucking as much money as possible out of their "independent distributors" to hell with the broken hearts, promises, friendships and families that they leave in their wake.

                                      They pray on the naivety, insecurity, greed, gullibility and other human frailties to make a buck. They are, essentially, cults of money.

                                      And in my mind, MLMs should all be illegal as pyramid schemes by another name.
                                      Sooooo....you've had a bad experience?

                                      I've only been a distributor with 3 MLM companies. All three treated everyone fairly, and were completely open about their policies.

                                      But these were large MLM companies that had tens of thousands of active distributors.

                                      And even with these companies, there were disgruntled distributors. My experience with disgruntled distributors is that the vast majority of them are expecting something for nothing, and simply aren't doing anything with their business.

                                      You said this;
                                      "There is a level of control that is cult-like in many MLMs. You will be ostracized if you leave, and hated by those on the outside whom you tried to sell to. They may actively encourage you to cut off any one who "doesn't understand" the "business" you are in, including close family members, and this is done purposefully so that your only source of validation is those you get from the people in your group for selling product."

                                      I've never seen that in a company. I suppose it's possible that a rogue distributor can act the way you describe.... but I've never seen it.

                                      MLM is simply a method of distribution, it isn't a cult. Although people that join cults are more likely to be the kind of people that join MLMs. It gives them the structure...the purpose...that they are looking for. And to many, it's another form of social group....like this forum.
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                                      • Profile picture of the author myob
                                        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                        Although people that join cults are more likely to be the kind of people that join MLMs. It gives them the structure...the purpose...that they are looking for. And to many, it's another form of social group....like this forum.
                                        Hmmmm... This forum has always been an excellent and steady source for MLM recruits, but I've never considered drawing from cults.
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                                    • Profile picture of the author savidge4
                                      I totally get what you are saying.. and for most I would say this is true.

                                      In MLM there is a bit of a chicken or egg first paradigm.. you are supposed to develop a downline with the concept of making 10K a month from home. BUT... you can hardly afford to buy product... let alone convince somebody the "opportunity" is good for them, when you yourself have not proven it.

                                      The guy driving the Cadillac or BMW has a lot in his favor... there is at the very least the image of success. Granted these poor bastages are probably as broke as you are after they are done paying the stupid ridiculous car payments to maintain "the image"

                                      I am currently in 5 different MLM programs. I have never met my uplines in in 4 of the 5. in the rare conference call that I get on, they simply do not like my methodology. I am a Product first downline second kind of guy. Develop the success.. then sell the success.

                                      Originally Posted by dgaunn4114 View Post

                                      Not only are you paying money for the product to distribute
                                      Honestly this line struck me... aside from MLM I do many other things. Part of "Retail".. you have to buy product to sell product. Walk into any store.. inventory... its either paid for up front, or they have so many days. In MLM you pay up front. You know that walking in.. therefore it really is not an issue.

                                      You obviously have to have some money up front with this methodology.... Buy the inventory.. sell the inventory. I could absolutely care less about creating a downline... the further along I get the more the downline part just happens... I ONLY care about selling product.

                                      Supplement products... I get the free trial size samples.. I goto every gym, yoga center etc.. offer the owner free samples.. try the product yourself, maybe this is something you can share with your clientele. There are cases I put the product in the store up front, and once a month I come in do inventory and get paid for the product sold. there are other cases the owner buys the product outright, and I just refill stock. I treat it as a PROPER business.

                                      There comes a point where a location is selling enough product... I will sit down with the owner.. I will say look join this, pay less up front get more on the back end... 90% of the time, this works. 50% of that 90%, they tend to turn right around and produce downline leads. ( other shops - a customer that buys a lot etc )

                                      I create downlines that have no issue buying product. I create downlines that have the ability to push product and not stock pile the stuff in their basements so they meet quota. I am a DISTRIBUTER, and not a RECRUITER.

                                      I would say 95% of the people pushing MLM in general.. they recruit.. the ideas you shared are exactly this, and that's why a lot of MLM "recruiters", and their downlines fail. Success in what is a product based business model for the individual business partner is not getting more people to sell.. but to actually sell themselves.




                                      Originally Posted by dgaunn4114 View Post

                                      The thing that pisses most people off about MLMs, and the consumers of poor internet marketing products, is their tendency for hype and bait and switch marketing. Advertise easy 10K/month work at home job, deliver a commission only grind where you must buy product first before selling it, and reveal how little you care about your friendships by selling them your [expletive] over-priced products.

                                      For those who've been in them, it goes much deeper. Not only are you paying money for the product to distribute, but you will get absolutely dumped on for asking any kind of near suspicious question, and they will never admit an iota of fault. Didn't meet your goals? Your a lazy piece of poop. Didn't want to open your address book to your boss? Are you actually serious about hitting your desired income? The sales "training" is utter crap and tells you to cold call random people about the latest nutritional supplement? You're not "making it work for you."

                                      Question their scummy sales tactics, the fact that everyone sells their same product cheaper, etc? Question their broken promises about training? And you are told you are being ungrateful.

                                      There is a level of control that is cult-like in many MLMs. You will be ostracized if you leave, and hated by those on the outside whom you tried to sell to. They may actively encourage you to cut off any one who "doesn't understand" the "business" you are in, including close family members, and this is done purposefully so that your only source of validation is those you get from the people in your group for selling product.

                                      Let me say this as directly as I can: everything an MLM does is done for the sole purpose of sucking as much money as possible out of their "independent distributors" to hell with the broken hearts, promises, friendships and families that they leave in their wake.

                                      They pray on the naivety, insecurity, greed, gullibility and other human frailties to make a buck. They are, essentially, cults of money.

                                      And in my mind, MLMs should all be illegal as pyramid schemes by another name.
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                      • Profile picture of the author myob
                        Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

                        I couldn't say.

                        I have no experience with the methods you use to trick people into your downline..
                        You seem to admire the style of spam used by POP, as "exemplary". In apparent stark contrast to your amateur approach, I use and teach proven marketing concepts, which btw is freely available right here on the forum.

                        Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

                        you went from adorable to hilarious
                        And you went from ignorance to nonsense.

                        Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

                        drop the MLM shenanigans
                        A $200 billion a year industry is hardly "shenanigans".

                        Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

                        get yourself a mic and a stage...
                        Been doing that as well for 20+ years all over the US and Canada. But the Warrior Forum has always been a goldmine too.
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                        • Profile picture of the author aizaku
                          Originally Posted by myob View Post

                          You seem to admire the style of spam used by POP, as "exemplary".
                          almost there...

                          I enjoyed watching how 'networking' is done in MLM, while I was arguing against it.

                          I mean ,come on, POP's timing was perfect!

                          Originally Posted by myob View Post

                          A $200 billion a year industry is hardly "shenanigans".
                          200 billion? why are you talking about money?

                          again, just like the word 'networking' you seem not to understand 'shenanigans'

                          shenanigans: secret or dishonest activity or manoeuvring.

                          Originally Posted by myob View Post

                          Been doing that as well for 20+ years all over the US and Canada. But the Warrior Forum has always been a goldmine too.
                          glad to hear..

                          you surely put a smile on my face.

                          having you react to me is all kinds of fun.

                          happy holidays,
                          Ike Paz
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                          • Profile picture of the author myob
                            Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

                            I enjoyed watching how 'networking' is done in MLM, while I was arguing against it.
                            That is not how networking is done in MLM, except by the poorly trained. Not even close.

                            For example, thanks in part to your persistently ignorant arguments, the concept of networking and MLM is getting more exposure. (This is true networking in action)

                            No offense intended; ignorance is not a bad thing, as long as you can learn.
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              • Profile picture of the author DABK
                So, you started by stating that all MLMS's are unethical pyramid schemes and gave your reasons for thinking that. Your reasons convinced me that some MLM's are (were/or can be) unethical pyramid schemes but not that all of them are/can/will be that.

                To buttress your position, you brought to bear: condescension, a bit of rudeness, and a lot of words.

                The condescension and rudeness don't even begin to strengthen the position you have taken, at most, they reflect on who you are, so I am going to let them be.

                The rest, in bold below:

                Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

                sorry but you can't word salad your way out of this.

                It is because I am respectful of people's time that I've been writing: inaccurate thinking leads to poor results. Promoting or not promoting a product or company or service for the wrong reason is bound to lead to a lot of wasted time and effort. Conflating definitions is inaccurate thinking. Repeating things that clear confusion caused by inaccurate definitions saves time, even if it does take time to read. also, please be respectful of other people's time, a lot of what you've said has already been covered in this thread.

                Originally Posted by DABK

                No, POP was not networking in his post. In a nutshell, networking is creating relationships with others by being helpful.

                you just made that up, there is no such prerequisite that you 'need to be helpful' in order to network.

                so yes, he was networking.. him being effective or not is another matter entirely
                I did not make that up. I've noticed from doing it and observing lots of people doing it that it works when you take such an approach/attitude.


                Also, by your way of thinking, if I hammer a few nails in a few planks of wood and say I built a porch, I built a porch even though the thing can't hold a human being?


                Originally Posted by DABK

                Let's establish that I understand what an MLM is.

                there is no shame in not knowing

                but it seems like you don't understand 'what MLM is' by the example you gave:

                Originally Posted by DABK

                if someone recruits me and I recruit nobody but still make $20k a month (because I sell 1000 items that make me $20 each), how is that a pyramid scheme?

                then 'you' (mr. 20k) are not MULTI-LEVEL marketing, that's called direct marketing. It was not an example. It was a scenario meant to clarify a point. I do understand that MLM is making money from a downline. However, what if you join one that doesn't require you to get anyone else to join and has products of such quality that you can make a good living selling directly?

                I'll give you another scenario: What if you join an MLM that rewards you for getting other people to join but encourages you even more to sell directly and get other people to join? What if you join an MLM where
                you make $10 each time you sell $100 worth of product,
                you get no money when someone you bring in joins, however,
                you get 1% of the money they make from selling the MLM's product
                you get $20 each time you sell $100 worth of product if you got 5 to 9 people to join
                you get $30 each time you sell $100 worth of product if you got 10 or more people under you.

                So, if you had 12 people under you, you'd get 1% of what each of them makes and triple your commission on the products you sell directly.

                What if, the rules say you get rewarded if you bring someone in, if that someone brings someone in, but not if the 3rd in the chain brings someone in (or the 4th)?

                you are not leveraging multiple levels of reps so you're not multi level marketing

                it's explicit in the title,

                just because i use a soccer ball to play kick ball, doesnt make me a soccer player. That's true. Just as true as the fact that you say all MLM's are unethical pyramid schemes makes all MLM's unethical pyramid schemes.

                Originally Posted by DABK

                if in an MLM I make $500 a month from my downline and $20k a month from selling their products, that's not a pyramid scheme in my opinion. So, my question is: are you saying that no such thing exists and what are you basing it on?

                I couldn't answer your bolded questions since they were poorly constructed and have loose connections with the example you gave.

                as for your opinion, well it's short sighted,

                the $20k has nothing to do with the multi leveling marketing part.

                your downline however will help to alter the product into a buy-in requirement for the reasons i stated in my last post.

                you can't assume how your reps will participate in your MLM company, Why can't you? Can't an MLM have rules that you can enforce? Can't an MLM exist that says: you can't misrepresent, for instance? If you're caught misrepresenting, you're out and forfeit whatever money you're owed?

                but you can assume that you will profit either way from your reps (downline and/or product)

                if your rep or your rep's rep can exponentially grow his/her bottom line by recruiting more reps and having them recruit more reps..

                ...then what's a more attractive incentive; a one off product sell or exponential growth of the downline.

                believe it or not, you can run a successful ice cream parlor and a loan sharking business under the same roof.

                it seems that you're unable to take a nuanced perspective on this. There's nothing nuanced about your perspective, and that's my issue with it.

                Originally Posted by DABK

                By the way, why do you think the FTC is saying they're illegal? Because they think they're ethical?

                i dont know what you're reading in my last post...

                the FTC deemed the three examples/companies I gave as legal.

                that being said, they all have histories of 'buy in requirements'

                5th pyramid scheme hallmark: https://www.sec.gov/investor/alerts/ia_pyramid.htm

                hence the settlements with the FTC Do they still have the 5th pyramid scheme hallmark? The fact that they have histories bears on the past only.

                happy holidays,
                Ike Paz

                PS in the future, please tighten up your points. Be more concise Seems to me I was too concise and for some people's abilities to understand. Happy happy joy joy
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                • Profile picture of the author myob
                  DABK,

                  Don't be so hard on the poor and ignorant. Their contributions here are all invaluable for MLM education, training, and evolving WSOs for network marketers through these narratives.
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                  • Profile picture of the author DABK
                    I am not trying to be hard; I'm trying to understand. But I need reasons beyond, it's the way I say because I say that's how it is. I'm probably never going to agree with him as regards ALL, but, at this point, I don't even understand why he feels/thinks all MLM's are scam. He's brought up facts that prove the opposite.

                    If someone says, stay away from MLM's, most, if not all, are scam. I know it because I looked into 7500 (or whatever large number), I can respect that.

                    If someone says, I tried 3 MLM's. They were scams. I'm done with them, can't recommend them based on my experience, I can respect that.


                    Originally Posted by myob View Post

                    DABK,

                    Don't be so hard on the poor and ignorant. Their contributions here are all invaluable for MLM education, training, and evolving WSOs for network marketers through these narratives.
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                    • Profile picture of the author myob
                      Originally Posted by DABK View Post

                      I am not trying to be hard; I'm trying to understand.
                      First, you should understand this type of behavior. Just as it is with lawyers, used car salesmen, insurance salesmen, IM "gurus", etc, there is often a deep-seated general malaise or distrust.

                      Some of this mistrust may be well-founded. But even more important is that it actually can be a good thing for savvy marketers, because it eliminates a lot of competition.

                      What most failures in MLM fail to understand is that network marketing is based on building personal, trustworthy relationships to achieve mutually beneficial objectives.

                      There is no other marketing model more powerful as this method of leveraging money, time, talents, resources, and dreams. If any one of these 5 elements are not being leveraged, the network (not necessarily the company) collapses.
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                • Profile picture of the author aizaku
                  Originally Posted by DABK View Post

                  To buttress your position, you brought to bear: condescension, a bit of rudeness, and a lot of words.
                  MLM is a scam. Ive shown that time and time again on this thread..

                  ...putting that to one side for a minute

                  ive been nothing but polite to you.. (i just addressed your issue about writing redundant posts)

                  if anyone is rude here it's you,

                  why you ask? I can clearly see that youve read little of what I wrote... I know this because you're now putting words in my mouth and skipping over points Ive already made..

                  after I painstakingly went through your posts, thats not right..

                  In the future, please have the decency to read through before replying and inputting

                  Originally Posted by myob View Post

                  Their contributions here are all invaluable for MLM education, training, and evolving WSOs for network marketers through these narratives.
                  there seems to be less and less of your kind of "marketer" here on the WF.

                  I could have sworn there was an MLM section on the WF back in the day.

                  Whatever it was, it's gone now.

                  Layoff your downline it's Christmas!

                  Happy Holidays,
                  Ike Paz
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                  • Profile picture of the author myob
                    Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

                    there seems to be less and less of your kind of "marketer" here on the WF.

                    I could have sworn there was an MLM section on the WF back in the day.

                    Whatever it was, it's gone now.
                    You obviously have no clue of what's happening here on the Warrior Forum. Record numbers of network marketers are building their downlines right here under your sniffling runny nose. Merry Christmas to all!
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                    • Profile picture of the author aizaku
                      Originally Posted by myob View Post

                      You obviously have no clue of what's happening here on the Warrior Forum. Record numbers of network marketers are building their downlines right here under your sniffling runny nose.
                      I dont need a clue, I have the search bar.

                      threads like these are not as common as they once were..

                      that being said, just like rats can thrive in the dark recesses of a large home... I'm sure MLMers have no problem building their downlines here on the WF...

                      as you said, right under my nose

                      -Ike Paz
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                      • Profile picture of the author myob
                        Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

                        I dont need a clue, I have the search bar.
                        Success leaves clues, but your kind has been left out and circumvented. We are in at least 14 subforums here, including this thread - right under your nose.
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                  • Profile picture of the author DABK
                    I, on the other hand, was approached by both types. Those who talked to me about the great opportunity and those who wanted me to buy some deodorant and such stuff...

                    Originally Posted by eccj View Post

                    I can't for the life of me remember anyone ever trying to sell me their "soap." It was always the opportunity.
                    No, I do not. All I am saying is that Aiziku, despite protestations to the contrary, has not shown that all MLM's are illegal or unethical pyramid schemes.

                    Originally Posted by Regional Warrior View Post

                    One small area you kinda forgot and that the MLM scams are world wide so matter what you FTC writes about who's on first means buckus outside the US

                    And most on this thread are going by their own experience in the world, so if they see a scam guess what ? Its a duck

                    Jason
                    Actually, you've not shown that MLM is a scam. You've shown that some MLM were scams. You've contended that, given human nature, all MLM's, sooner or later, end up scamming people (which I don't buy; If only human nature like the kind you have in mind were in play, all loan officers, barbers, engineers, architects, etc., etc., will be scamming all their clients all the time).

                    What you have done is STATED that MLM's are a scam and shown that SOME have been/are scams.

                    I've read again all your posts, looking for you showing. It's not there; you did not put it in. You only showed that some MLM's are/have been scams.

                    By the way, me disagreeing that you have shown that all MLM's are a scam does not mean that I did not read your posts, don't understand your posts, don't know what MLMs are. It only means that I do not think you've made your case.

                    Again, I have read all your posts in this thread again just now. Again, I think you have not shown that all MLM's are a scam.

                    Happy, happy, joy, joy.


                    Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

                    MLM is a scam. Ive shown that time and time again on this thread..

                    ...putting that to one side for a minute

                    ive been nothing but polite to you.. (i just addressed your issue about writing redundant posts)

                    if anyone is rude here it's you,

                    why you ask? I can clearly see that youve read little of what I wrote... I know this because you're now putting words in my mouth and skipping over points Ive already made..

                    after I painstakingly went through your posts, thats not right..

                    In the future, please have the decency to read through before replying and inputting



                    there seems to be less and less of your kind of "marketer" here on the WF.

                    I could have sworn there was an MLM section on the WF back in the day.

                    Whatever it was, it's gone now.

                    Layoff your downline it's Christmas!

                    Happy Holidays,
                    Ike Paz
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                    • Profile picture of the author aizaku
                      Originally Posted by myob View Post

                      We are in at least 14 subforums here, including this thread - right under your nose.
                      when you say "we" you mean pro MLMers, right?.

                      how many active pro MLM threads do you see?

                      "some" believe that MLM is a legitimate form of marketing, how come it doesn't have it's own subforum here on the WF.

                      Please correct me if I'm wrong but didnt you guys have your own subform back in the day?

                      if "yes", then what happened to it?

                      i imagine the same thing that happened to MLM with FB ads...

                      Originally Posted by DABK View Post

                      You've contended that, given human nature, all MLM's, sooner or later, end up scamming people...
                      ...and this is the proof that you didn't read or didn't understand what I wrote

                      Originally Posted by DABK View Post

                      What you have done is STATED that MLM's are a scam and shown that SOME have been/are scams.
                      half truths, ive stated much more than this...

                      Originally Posted by DABK View Post

                      By the way, me disagreeing that you have shown that all MLM's are a scam does not mean that I did not read your posts,
                      never said this,

                      Originally Posted by DABK View Post

                      Again, I think you have not shown that all MLM's are a scam.
                      you're free to THINK anything you want.

                      have a great day
                      -Ike Paz
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                      • Profile picture of the author myob
                        Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

                        when you say "we" you mean pro MLMers, right?.

                        how many active pro MLM threads do you see?

                        "some" believe that MLM is a legitimate form of marketing, how come it doesn't have it's own subforum here on the WF.

                        Please correct me if I'm wrong but didnt you guys have your own subform back in the day?

                        if "yes", then what happened to it?

                        i imagine the same thing that happened to MLM with FB ads...
                        There was an MLM subforum here on the WF about six years ago. But it was short-lived because it quickly became infested with spam.

                        However, the Warrior Forum (as well as FB) are among the top marketing sites being used by a large number of pro MLMers for recruiting and training.
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                        • Profile picture of the author aizaku
                          Originally Posted by myob View Post

                          There was an MLM subforum here on the WF about six years ago. But it was short-lived because it quickly became infested with spam.
                          thanks for confirming that...

                          Originally Posted by myob View Post

                          However, the Warrior Forum (as well as FB) are among the top marketing sites being used by a large number of pro MLMers for recruiting and training.
                          I believe it.

                          -Ike Paz
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                      • Profile picture of the author DABK
                        Not proof that you did not make a convincing argument?


                        Originally Posted by aizaku View Post



                        ...and this is the proof that you didn't read or didn't understand what I wrote



                        half truths, ive stated much more than this...

                        -Ike Paz
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                  • Profile picture of the author savidge4
                    Forget MLM - lets look at small business in general. Starting a small business is hard.. Stats indicate a 80% fail rate. Some studies go as far as 90% ( not to far off from the herbalife stats ) So regardless you becoming a MLM distributer.. or seeing through the dream of having your own cupcake shop the reality is failure is in the majorities horizon.

                    This is not specifically an MLM thing... this is throughout any and every business model. Ironically the reason for failure is pretty much the same unilaterally. If I had to name the 5 biggest reasons for business failure they would be as follows"

                    #1 Not communicating with customers. Forget identifying and all that stuff, people are simply not reaching out to buyers of their product. I call it the build it and they will come mentality - and it simply does not work that way.

                    #2 Lack of USP ( Unique Selling Perspective ) I will without question say this is even true with MLM. What separates you from everyone else. In every business that I am involved with be it my own, or my clients this is priority one. Without USP you have nothing.

                    #3 The ability to communicate your USP. A USP is worth absolutely nothing if you can not communicate it on a clear understandable level. what makes sense to you.. may not make sense to others.

                    #4 Failure at the top. As this applies to a small business, if the boss isn't getting it right and showing by example.. then no one else is going to. If vacations are more important than business when first starting.. well you will be in the 80%. How this applies to MLM. an upline structure that is more interested in recruiting than selling product.. smells of failure. The whole point of most any and every MLM is the product line. If there is not focus on this, then really ho long can YOUR business within this model last. which leads me to...

                    #5 Not having the ability to identify and execute a working business model. This is the big one.

                    Now, go back and watch the video that was shared above. How many points of the 5 would you say were successfully followed through on. No need to really answer.. the reality is the answer is 0 of the 5 steps were even touched. If these 5 steps are what is needed to be successful, there seems to have been every attempt made to do the exact opposite.

                    From the top down... if some pretty simple principles of success are not applied, the business will fail.

                    Regardless of the opportunity or dream, the 5 rules above will get you in the right direction... they do require work.. nothing will be easy and free. build it and they will come does not exists ( unless your building a McDonalds LOL ) Common sense and due diligence should rule the day. Take a look at each and every opportunity and apply rule #5. Can you identify a working business model, and would you have the ability to execute that working model?
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                    • Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                      Forget MLM - lets look at small business in general. Starting a small business is hard.. Stats indicate a 80% fail rate. Some studies go as far as 90% ( not to far off from the herbalife stats ) So regardless you becoming a MLM distributer.. or seeing through the dream of having your own cupcake shop the reality is failure is in the majorities horizon.
                      That 80% is real. And a major reason is this.....people start businesses with no idea what they are doing, no idea how a business works, no idea how to buy correctly, no idea how to treat employees. No idea how to promote their business....and no idea how to sell.

                      My wife's nephew came to me to loan him money to start a cafe.

                      "Have you ever owned a cafe before?" no.
                      "Have you ever worked in a cafe before?" nope.
                      "Have you ever run a business before?" not even close.

                      He wanted me to invest tens of thousands of dollars in a business that was certain to fail.

                      I suggested that he work in a cafe for 6 months, to learn how it works, and see if he would even like having a cafe.

                      He said, "So, you're saying you don't believe in me?"

                      He was perfectly willing to accept my money, but wasn't willing to put in any effort at all to learn about owning a cafe. His aunt (my wife's sister) ended up loaning him $50,000 to start his cafe. It lasted less than a year. It hemorrhaged cash. She ended up giving him $250,000 to keep it afloat.She lost all the money, deservedly so. She and her husband lost their home....and Jeff, the moron who borrowed the money, of course feels no obligation to pay any of it back.

                      We were all (the whole extended family on my wife's side) having a Christmas dinner, just after the "loan" was made to my wife's nephew. My sister-in-law mentioned that she gave the money to Jeff.

                      I said, "He came to me, and I turned him down"
                      Her; "Why? don't you think he'll be successful?" (he was in the room hearing this all)
                      Me; "I know he won't. He's never owned a business before, he has no idea what he's doing. And when he can't pay you back, he'll stop talking to you, because you are "harassing him" for the money he owes you. Banks won't loan him money, because they have experience in what makes a business viable. His parents (who were sitting right there) won't give him the money, because they have nothing left to give him after his last venture. Next Christmas dinner, I know this..one of you won't be here..you or Jeff. What I don't know is which one."

                      It was Jeff.

                      This may have read like I was yelling. I was speaking in even tones. But I wasn't trying to be quiet. I knew it was a disaster, and I knew they were going to be taken advantage of.

                      Jeff wasn't trying to rip them off. In his mind, he liked what he saw about cafes..because he had eaten at one, and enjoyed it. He assumed he would have a great cafe, talking to his customers....raking in money...enjoying himself.

                      And if it didn't wok out, he would try something else. And it didn't..and then he tried something else. No idea what, because I never saw him again. This was about 25 years ago.




                      Humans. I hate them.
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                  • Profile picture of the author socialentry
                    Originally Posted by Claude Whiteacre

                    In every MLM I've seen, with one exception, the corruption was at the distributor level. And it's impossible to clean up.....because most people in MLM are not business people, and have no idea how to run a business.
                    To be fair, while it's true it's the "victim"'s fault, the higher ups are not exactly discouraging their entry either.

                    Suppose that a distributor fails miserably, central office doesn't lose anything. If anything, they unloaded some of their inventory. What incentive is there to clean it up?
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                    • Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

                      To be fair, while it's true it's the "victim"'s fault, the higher ups are not exactly discouraging their entry either.

                      Suppose that a distributor fails miserably, central office doesn't lose anything. If anything, they unloaded some of their inventory. What incentive is there to clean it up?
                      They are all human. Higher up lines may be aware of some fraudulent claims, and many times will pay lip service to try to stop it. But these are not employees. They are independent business people.

                      The company can rely only make policy, and hope their distributors stick to it.

                      Many of the claims from angry distributors are coming from the company sticking to their stated policies, when it isn't what the distributor wants...like not taking back product after a time limit

                      In a typical MLM company, they may pay out 49% of the "wholesale" cost in distributor commissions.

                      Let's say they pay out 7% for 7 levels. If a distributor doesn't qualify for a check that month, or quits...and commission owed rolls up to the next person in the downline.

                      The company is going to pay out 49% total to somebody. They don't really care who it is.

                      And you are right, the company loses nothing from a failed distributor, but they also gain little or nothing.

                      For example, a new distributor buys $5,000 in product, and then gets a commission...and then returns all the product for a refund....

                      That product cannot be resold as new, in most cases.

                      In my experience in direct selling and MLM, it's almost never the company tht is really the villain. But it's the disgruntled distributor that is telling the story. And so they always sound like the innocent victim.
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                  • Profile picture of the author myob
                    A legitimate MLM opportunity doesn't require new distributors to buy unreasonable amounts of inventory to begin their.business. Since 1979, this practice (front-loading) has been illegal, and MLM companies are at risk of severe penalties for knowingly allowing this to happen among their distributors. Immediate termination of distributorships, restitution, and forfeiture of commissions and bonuses is often the standard disciplinary recourse against violaters.

                    In a FTC vs.Amway case ruling in 1979, the FTC defined inventory loading as a practice which requires a person seeking to become a distributor to pay a large sum of money or to purchase a large amount of nonreturnable inventory. Under the 1979 definition, any MLM company could easily avoid inventory loading allegations and ensuing litigation by simply having a good return policy.
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                    • Originally Posted by myob View Post

                      A legitimate MLM opportunity doesn't require new distributors to buy unreasonable amounts of inventory to begin their.business. Since 1979, this practice (front-loading) has been illegal, and MLM companies are at risk of severe penalties for knowingly allowing this to happen among their distributors. Immediate termination of distributorships, restitution, and forfeiture of commissions and bonuses is often the standard disciplinary recourse against violaters.

                      In a FTC vs.Amway case ruling in 1979, the FTC defined inventory loading as a practice which requires a person seeking to become a distributor to pay a large sum of money or to purchase a large amount of nonreturnable inventory. Under the 1979 definition, any MLM company could easily avoid inventory loading allegations and ensuing litigation by simply having a good return policy.
                      That's interesting, I remember about 25 years ago when I was first out of college I got invited to sit in on the MLM selling water purifiers. I was told I could sell one by one and get X commission but if I bought $5000 inventory up front then I would get a much better deal or commission, I would be an "executive distributor". The guy said I would only have to sell my $5000 worth to somebody else and I'd be back even. Simple, huh. It was 25 years ago so I can't remember all the details but I'm guessing they had their bases covered legally. I never did buy, I remember going to a store and finding much better purifiers for the same price or better, which leads me to my question.

                      Since there are apparently many MLM'ers on the WF, can someone show me one MLM product that is better and/or cheaper than the same product I can buy in a store or online? Since there are apparently good MLM companies out there I'd like to know what the good ones are selling. I'm sorry to be such a skeptic, but in the many times I have been offered to join an MLM I have yet to see a product I can believe in. It's usually been lotions, potions, and pills. Show me an MLM based on selling the product and not the get rich quick dream.

                      Thanks.
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                      • Profile picture of the author eccj
                        Originally Posted by mobilemarketer2012 View Post

                        That's interesting, I remember about 25 years ago when I was first out of college I got invited to sit in on the MLM selling water purifiers. I was told I could sell one by one and get X commission but if I bought $5000 inventory up front then I would get a much better deal or commission, I would be an "executive distributor". The guy said I would only have to sell my $5000 worth to somebody else and I'd be back even. Simple, huh. It was 25 years ago so I can't remember all the details but I'm guessing they had their bases covered legally. I never did buy, I remember going to a store and finding much better purifiers for the same price or better, which leads me to my question.

                        Since there are apparently many MLM'ers on the WF, can someone show me one MLM product that is better and/or cheaper than the same product I can buy in a store or online? Since there are apparently good MLM companies out there I'd like to know what the good ones are selling. I'm sorry to be such a skeptic, but in the many times I have been offered to join an MLM I have yet to see a product I can believe in. It's usually been lotions, potions, and pills. Show me an MLM based on selling the product and not the get rich quick dream.

                        Thanks.
                        They don't exist. If they were better then they wouldn't be an MLM product.

                        MLM is selling a lie; the product is just there to justify the lie - both legally and to the delusional greedy nimkapoops who think they found "the ultimate way to get rich" not sound like greedy nimkapoops to their wives when they come home with yet another get-rich-quick scheme.
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                      • Profile picture of the author savidge4
                        Originally Posted by mobilemarketer2012 View Post

                        can someone show me one MLM product that is better and/or cheaper than the same product I can buy in a store or online? Since there are apparently good MLM companies out there I'd like to know what the good ones are selling.
                        I don't actually sell the product but use it... Isogenics Protien Shakes are top class. Even with the idea that protien shakes are protein shakes find me another shake that has all the vitamins and minerals, Ive looked, and you cant find one.
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                      • Originally Posted by mobilemarketer2012 View Post

                        Since there are apparently many MLM'ers on the WF, can someone show me one MLM product that is better and/or cheaper than the same product I can buy in a store or online?
                        I think eventually, someone makes the exact same thing much cheaper, and that company flourishes for a time, because of the piggybacking off of the MLM company's marketing.

                        But then the MLM company folds, (or gets bought and absorbed) demand crashes, and the whole idea goes away.

                        For example, Celltech had Algae very rich in minerals because it was harvested in a lake surrounded by mountains, and the minerals were washed into the lake. A great story, and an excellent producet. I bought it for a few years.

                        Then other companies started harvesting the same algae, from the same source...and you can get it on Amazon.com for almost nothing. The company died.

                        I sold Air purifiers with a unique technology (radio wave ionization). Of course, a few years later, you can buy the exact same thing imported from China...on E-Bay for 25% of the former cost. And that company is gone (I think) now as well.

                        But vitamins? Protein shakes? Diet products? I assume you can always buy the same thing much cheaper.
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                        • Profile picture of the author myob
                          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                          But vitamins? Protein shakes? Diet products? I assume you can always buy the same thing much cheaper.
                          This segment of the health and weight loss industry is particularly rife with misconceptions, deception, lies, and defective products designed and targeted especially for the bargain hunter.

                          Originally Posted by mobilemarketer2012 View Post

                          Myob would you mind telling me what MLM('s) you are involved in and what products they sell?
                          With apologies, I can't do so without triggering a link-fest of other MLM marketers here on the WF. You may now have just opened yourself up to hordes of amateur MLM marketers in your PM box.
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                          • Originally Posted by myob View Post

                            This segment of the health and weight loss industry is particularly rife with misconceptions, deception, lies, and defective products designed and targeted especially for the bargain hunter.



                            With apologies, I can't do so without triggering a link-fest of other MLM marketers here on the WF. You may now have just opened yourself up to hordes of amateur MLM marketers in your PM box.

                            Well, I'm not joining any MLM unless it can promise to give me a jump shot with a 20 foot range. That and a million bucks by weeks end.

                            Forgive me for saying so, but you seem reluctant to tell us who you are involved with. That plays into my skepticism of MLMs. Just saying. By the way, I used to read all your posts when I was more active here. You are a bright guy and a good writer. I can see why you made a lot of money doing affiliate content marketing for large ticket items. I just think MLM's are crap. Show me one that has a good product and doesn't require a monthly fee and I might get interested.
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                            • Originally Posted by mobilemarketer2012 View Post

                              Well, I'm not joining any MLM unless it can promise to give me a jump shot with a 20 foot range. That and a million bucks by weeks end.

                              Forgive me for saying so, but you seem reluctant to tell us who you are involved with. That plays into my skepticism of MLMs. .
                              That's a mistake. It should play into thinking MYOB is showing some class, by not listing the MLMs he is in, creating a storm of "I want in" or "I want you to join my deal" private e-mails.

                              If I were currently in an MLM, I doubt that I would name the company on a public forum. At best, you would be soliciting (at least the Mods may think so) and at worst, you'd get a load of unwanted private messages.
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                            • Profile picture of the author myob
                              Originally Posted by mobilemarketer2012 View Post

                              Well, I'm not joining any MLM unless it can promise to give me a jump shot with a 20 foot range. That and a million bucks by weeks end.
                              Try getting a job with those type of demands.
                              Originally Posted by mobilemarketer2012 View Post

                              Forgive me for saying so, but you seem reluctant to tell us who you are involved with. That plays into my skepticism of MLMs.
                              I really don't care how it plays into your preconceived notions. My posts in this thread are not intended to convince anyone about the merits of MLM; only to demonstrate the reasons why I market the way I do. And no one on my team will ever divulge the type of business, name of the MLM company, nor the products without a vetting process for qualification. The reasons should be blatantly obvious to you just by the general opinions expressed in this thread.
                              Originally Posted by mobilemarketer2012 View Post

                              By the way, I used to read all your posts when I was more active here. You are a bright guy and a good writer. I can see why you made a lot of money doing affiliate content marketing for large ticket items. I just think MLM's are crap.
                              You've got it backwards. I sell a whole lot of crap from Amazon as an affiliate, because that's what most people want. Think McDonald's; fortunes are being made through a very expensive affiliate marketing system (they call it a "franchise") selling crap, because that's what most people want.

                              But there's a whole bunch of more money being made by those who can provide what people really need on a residual basis using a leveraged marketing system. My MLM is a backend offer which is only presented deep in the funnel system.
                              Originally Posted by mobilemarketer2012 View Post

                              Show me one that has a good product and doesn't require a monthly fee and I might get interested.
                              My MLM company does not require any fees at all to join. But the training I provide requires a substantial investment and a serious monthly committment - just like a real business.
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                              • Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                That's a mistake. It should play into thinking MYOB is showing some class, by not listing the MLMs he is in, creating a storm of "I want in" or "I want you to join my deal" private e-mails.

                                If I were currently in an MLM, I doubt that I would name the company on a public forum. At best, you would be soliciting (at least the Mods may think so) and at worst, you'd get a load of unwanted private messages.
                                Originally Posted by myob View Post

                                Try getting a job with those type of demands.

                                I really don't care how it plays into your preconceived notions. My posts in this thread are not intended to convince anyone about the merits of MLM; only to demonstrate the reasons why I market the way I do. And no one on my team will ever divulge the type of business, name of the MLM company, nor the products without a vetting process for qualification. The reasons should be blatantly obvious to you just by the general opinions expressed in this thread.

                                You've got it backwards. I sell a whole lot of crap from Amazon as an affiliate, because that's what most people want. Think McDonald's; fortunes are being made through a very expensive affiliate marketing system (they call it a "franchise") selling crap, because that's what most people want.

                                But there's a whole bunch of more money being made by those who can provide what people really need on a residual basis using a leveraged marketing system. My MLM is a backend offer which is only presented deep in the funnel system.

                                My MLM company does not require any fees at all to join. But the training I provide requires a substantial investment and a serious monthly committment - just like a real business.
                                Gentlemen, I appreciate your opinions and insight. I may not agree with everything you say, but I do respect both of you and I have learned much from both of here on the WF. Thanks for your posts.
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                      • Profile picture of the author myob
                        Originally Posted by mobilemarketer2012 View Post

                        Since there are apparently many MLM'ers on the WF, can someone show me one MLM product that is better and/or cheaper than the same product I can buy in a store or online? Since there are apparently good MLM companies out there I'd like to know what the good ones are selling. I'm sorry to be such a skeptic, but in the many times I have been offered to join an MLM I have yet to see a product I can believe in. It's usually been lotions, potions, and pills. Show me an MLM based on selling the product and not the get rich quick dream.
                        Look for an MLM company that either manufactures their own products or has exclusive enhanced features from their suppliers. Most, if not all of the major network marketing companies do have products of unique quality, processing, or features.

                        There is a huge demand for top of the line products, assured by reputable brands. Those who are okay with commodity prices of generic products of specious or often cost-based quality may not be good prospects for network marketers.
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                        • Originally Posted by myob View Post

                          Look for an MLM company that either manufactures their own products or has exclusive enhanced features from their suppliers. Most, if not all of the major network marketing companies do have products of unique quality, processing, or features.

                          There is a huge demand for top of the line products, assured by reputable brands. Those who are okay with commodity prices of generic products of specious or often cost-based quality may not be good prospects for network marketers.
                          Myob would you mind telling me what MLM('s) you are involved in and what products they sell?

                          Thanks.
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                  • Profile picture of the author stanton
                    Do what L Ron Hubbard did with that other gigantic scam, start your own MLM.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                      WF should have a like button
                      WF has a 'thanks' button - in the classic forum view, at least. Don't know if it's included in the 'feed/modern view'.
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                    • Profile picture of the author myob
                      Just try and explain all that to the IRS when the time comes to pay income tax.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Ron Lafuddy
                        Originally Posted by myob View Post

                        Just try and explain all that to the IRS when the time comes to pay income tax.
                        Has nothing to do with the IRS but everything to do with control, which is what those who actually run a business have... and what those who are active in MLM DON'T.
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                    • Profile picture of the author myob
                      Originally Posted by Ron Lafuddy View Post

                      Has nothing to do with the IRS but everything to do with control, which is what those who actually run a business have... and what those who are active in MLM DON'T.
                      You must be thinking of those who fail in MLM. For real success and growth, MLM must to be run as a business, using standard business practices and methods. Most who are in MLM don't have a clue about what they're doing. Then when they "drop out", they usually blame the system, products, prices, or the company rather than their own business incompetence.
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                    • Profile picture of the author discrat
                      Wow, this thread is still going strong after 8 months.

                      Bottom line : Find me an MLM program that has a solid business plan and most importantly Product that is second to none and that I would buy without being a part of the MLM itself
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                      • Profile picture of the author CpvGuru
                        I would be happy to do that! I look forward to your opinion on our products!
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                      • Profile picture of the author myob
                        Originally Posted by discrat View Post

                        Wow, this thread is still going strong after 8 months.

                        Bottom line : Find me an MLM program that has a solid business plan and most importantly Product that is second to none and that I would buy without being a part of the MLM itself
                        You already are doomed to fail in MLM.

                        There is no MLM company that has a "solid" business plan, without the accompanying expertise and extensive duplicatable training provided by a seasoned upline and/or third party trainers.

                        And there is no such thing as a product that is "second to none", without commensurate cost which would be impractical and unaffordable for building a business.

                        For example, if you wanted to buy the best, most advanced aircraft from the largest MLM company in the world (US government), I recommend the F-22 Raptor.

                        But at about $200 million, perhaps you should consider a propeller-powered Piper M350 as an acceptable solution for you. It's only $1.5 million, but will get you just about anywhere you may wish to go.

                        So rather than looking for the virtually unattainable (and generally unmarketable) product that is "second to none", search for effective solutions that have the widest appeal within your circle of influence.

                        That is the biggest "secret" in MLM.
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                        • Profile picture of the author eccj
                          Originally Posted by myob View Post

                          You already are doomed to fail in MLM.

                          There is no MLM company that has a "solid" business plan, without the accompanying expertise and extensive duplicatable training provided by a seasoned upline and/or third party trainers.

                          And there is no such thing as a product that is "second to none", without commensurate cost which would be impractical and unaffordable for building a business.

                          For example, if you wanted to buy the best, most advanced aircraft from the largest MLM company in the world (US government), I recommend the F-22 Raptor.

                          But at about $200 million, perhaps you should consider a propeller-powered Piper M350 as an acceptable solution for you. It's only $1.5 million, but will get you just about anywhere you may wish to go.

                          So rather than looking for the virtually unattainable (and generally unmarketable) product that is "second to none", search for effective solutions that have the widest appeal within your circle of influence.

                          That is the biggest "secret" in MLM.
                          No. You are already doomed to fail in MLM because MLM is doomed to fail.

                          We've already explained this. If you don't get it then you need to learn math.
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                        • Profile picture of the author socialentry
                          Originally Posted by myob View Post

                          the largest MLM company in the world (US government),
                          You lost me there.
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                          • Profile picture of the author myob
                            Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

                            You lost me there.
                            Here are your steps to success in promoting the F22 Raptor MLM opportunity:

                            Watch this video: What is the Secret Behind Our Success?

                            Join here FREE!: F22 Raptor MLM opportunity

                            Print out this flier with your contact information: F22 Raptor Promo Flier

                            Make a list of family, friends, and everyone you know (minimum 500). This is your warm market.

                            Start calling everyone on your list, and send them a flier.

                            Add new contacts to your list every day. Rinse and repeat.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Ron Lafuddy
                          Originally Posted by myob View Post

                          the largest MLM company in the world (US government), .
                          Finally a point on which you and I agree.
                          It's obvious why. Just like with an MLM company, we, the participants, have absolutely no control over how the thing is being run.

                          Ron
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                          • Profile picture of the author myob
                            Originally Posted by Ron Lafuddy View Post

                            Finally a point on which you and I agree.
                            It's obvious why. Just like with an MLM company, we, the participants, have absolutely no control over how the thing is being run.

                            Ron
                            Glad to see to you and I agree. And, just as in any other major MLM system, the true go-getters make millions, while your so-called "participants" make excuses, then whine and complain they have no control, and expect handouts.
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                            • Profile picture of the author Ron Lafuddy
                              Originally Posted by myob View Post

                              Glad to see to you and I agree. And, just as in any other major MLM system, the true go-getters make millions, while your so-called "participants" make excuses, then whine and complain they have no control, and expect handouts.
                              Didn't take you long to "pea on the parade". That seems to be your nature. So be it.

                              We are ALL participants. Like it or not. Whiners and hustlers, alike. You, nor I, have any say about how things are run. Just like an MLM, as a matter of fact, since we don't run the MLM company.

                              Comes back to Control again. You either have it, or you don't.

                              As for making millions, I'm all for it. However, the graft, greed, corruption, blackmail, murder and the criminal behavior that passes for "public service".

                              I'll take a pass.
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                              • Profile picture of the author myob
                                Originally Posted by Ron Lafuddy View Post

                                As for making millions, I'm all for it. However, the graft, greed, corruption, blackmail, murder and the criminal behavior that passes for "public service".

                                I'll take a pass.
                                While not essential for success in MLM, the above marketing techniques do work quite well in the short term. But for longevity and long-term business continuity, I recommend using more of the legal business practices as taught by mainstream MLM companies.

                                MLM (in the civilian arena) is now responsible for the distribution of over $170 Billion worth of products and services by millions of representatives globally, and this is increasing uncontrollably every year.


                                Originally Posted by eccj View Post

                                You finally let your face show.

                                MLM is based on lies, greed, and requires high levels of cynicism in order to "make it."

                                Oh and a lotion that cures cancer doesn't hurt either.
                                You need to just stay completely away from business altogether. They are all evil.
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                            • Profile picture of the author eccj
                              Originally Posted by myob View Post

                              Glad to see to you and I agree. And, just as in any other major MLM system, the true go-getters make millions, while your so-called "participants" make excuses, then whine and complain they have no control, and expect handouts.
                              You finally let your face show.

                              MLM is based on lies, greed, and requires high levels of cynicism in order to "make it."

                              Oh and a lotion that cures cancer doesn't hurt either.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                      this thread is still going strong after 8 months.
                      No - only the argument is going strong.

                      If someone is making money and happy working in mlm - what is the point of arguing 'it's doomed'? It's one thing to advise a new person about the perils of mlm - quite another to argue with those making money with mlm.
                      Signature

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                      • Profile picture of the author stanton
                        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                        No - only the argument is going strong.

                        If someone is making money and happy working in mlm - what is the point of arguing 'it's doomed'? It's one thing to advise a new person about the perils of mlm - quite another to argue with those making money with mlm.
                        I have to agree, MLMs are nothing more than pyramid schemes with a product layered on top for respectability and legal reasons. But if you get in somewhere where there is still a possibility of getting lots of people to sign up underneath you, then do it.

                        The people who lose are the ones who don't realise it is a pyramid scheme. Trust me, some of my lead generation clients are killing it in the MLM space and that is because they only concentrate on getting people underneath them, the product is secondary.
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        • Originally Posted by DABK View Post

          The FTC (Federal Trade Commission) makes a distinction between pyramid schemes and MLS's and between pyramid schemes pretending to be MLM's and MLS, according to an article in Chicago Tribune: The fine line between legitimate marketing and pyramid scheme - tribunedigital-chicagotribune.

          Basically, it comes down to how money is made. Presumably, if you can make money just by selling a product, it's not a pyramid. If you can make money only if you sell memberships, it's a pyramid.

          Why my post?

          Because it seems to me that some people are not agreeing on the definition and we end up with a lot of useless discussion.

          Perhaps the people arguing the most should state what their definition of an MLM is.

          If I join MLM x, that sells item z at $100 and $20 is mine and if I can sell 1000 units a month, is that considered me making $20x1000=$20,000, i.e., me making money, i.e., me not being involved in pyramid scheme? How is that worse than me selling 1000 units as an affiliate making $20/sale? Or a direct seller who sells 1000 units and whose profit is $20 on each sold unit?

          Or, are the people saying MLM's are always a scam saying there are no MLM's where you can sell products but don't have to sell memberships/create downlines?

          Oh, yeah; Here's the link to a FTC's page about how to tell an MLM from a pyramid scheme: https://www.sec.gov/investor/alerts/ia_pyramid.htm.

          Not part of an MLM, not interested in joining one, but logic allows for MLM's that are not pyramid schemes and the FTC says what logic allows does, indeed, exist in real life (otherwise their advice would be to stay away from all, not to look at this and compare that...
          One small area you kinda forgot and that the MLM scams are world wide so matter what you FTC writes about who's on first means buckus outside the US

          And most on this thread are going by their own experience in the world, so if they see a scam guess what ? Its a duck

          Jason
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      • Profile picture of the author myob
        Originally Posted by CpvGuru View Post

        I have watched my mentor go from making $12K per month to $80K per month in 18 months in an MLM.
        Learn from your mentor. You've got a snowball's chance in hell learning it here.
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    • Profile picture of the author solotr
      And what you are saying is "I'd like to see the fake checks and online account statements made by other online scammers before I believe you're making money in MLM'?

      Sorry, just irks me when those who have not worked with a network marketing company or expected someone else to do the work for them express an opinion about something they know nothing about.
      Signature

      "It is better to have a permanent income than to be fascinating" ~ Oscar Wilde

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  • Profile picture of the author 4DayWeekend
    As you've been taught how to drive traffic into lead capture pages and sales funnels, why not just use those skills to capture your own leads that you can market to however you please?

    That way you can promote products that you personally believe in.

    I'm not experienced with MLM but if you're teaching people the way to make money is by selling the same program you've sold them, and they have to teach the same to people they've sold it to, who have to teach the same to people again - then regardless of hollywood standard video productions, groovy animations and fancy graphics - there actually isn't a core product and eventually there's going to be nobody left to funnel in.

    Of course, I'm not saying all MLM products are like that, because I've never touched MLM. But i'd certainly advise against working with any that are.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
      Originally Posted by 4DayWeekend View Post

      As you've been taught how to drive traffic into lead capture pages and sales funnels, why not just use those skills to capture your own leads that you can market to however you please?

      That way you can promote products that you personally believe in.

      I'm not experienced with MLM but if you're teaching people the way to make money is by selling the same program you've sold them, and they have to teach the same to people they've sold it to, who have to teach the same to people again - then regardless of hollywood standard video productions, groovy animations and fancy graphics - there actually isn't a core product and eventually there's going to be nobody left to funnel in.

      Of course, I'm not saying all MLM products are like that, because I've never touched MLM. But i'd certainly advise against working with any that are.
      What you've described is an illegal pyramid scheme. MLM doesn't operate that way.
      Signature
      If you knew what I know you'd be doing what I do...
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      • Profile picture of the author 4DayWeekend
        Originally Posted by Tsnyder View Post

        What you've described is an illegal pyramid scheme. MLM doesn't operate that way.
        I've definitely seen some in MLM platforms in the 'make money' niche that operate that way, whereby beyond all the fancy landing pages, hosting and so on and so forth; people only make money by selling on the product who make money by selling on the product again...

        That said, it's difficult to identify them as a pyramid scheme because they've been dressed up so elaborately that there 'appears' to be a product there.

        That said, I'm not saying every MLM platform is like this. I'm the first to openly admit that I'm no expert at all when it comes to MLM. But I just think people should be aware of these networks existing and do their due diligence before jumping into MLM (like any business model).
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  • Profile picture of the author amuro
    [I]
    Originally Posted by Mr Nice View Post

    Hello, I've been around a bit looking for ways to make money online and I've been sucked into the MLM business which you join and then you have to get others to join by telling them how much money you make.

    After looking at that its not for me. So what can I do to make money?

    Does anyone have any suggestions?

    What I did like about the make money online MLM programs is you get a proven sales funnel, I.E. Capture pages, Auto Responder emails.

    I'm not saying MLM is bad I just don't like the MLM programs that talk about making money online. I would rather be involved in a MLM program that actually has a product a very good product that helps people or takes pain away from people.

    I'm open to any suggestions.

    Thank you

    Mr Nice
    I have the same experience as you exactly 10 years ago.

    Those marketers tried to confuse me MLM with internet marketing. But actually their concept is present their website or presentation files with the link to sign me up on the spot.

    This is THEIR way of internet marketing.

    The real way of internet marketing - having learn from REAL experts in seminar previews and workshops - is

    1. Have Your Own Blog And Landing Page

    Not the company you represent but your very own in your own brand and logo.

    Think Tony Robbins, Eben Pagan and Brian Tracy just to name a few.

    Your blog is to allow people to know who you are and why they should even trust let alone learn from you.

    While your landing page is to get their names and emails to be on your list.

    2. Have Your Own Email List

    In offline world especially companies, they called this leads or prospects and customers database.

    In online world, internet marketers defined this as email or subscribers list.

    The purpose of having your own email list - though i learnt this the hard way after knowing it just by theory years ago - is so that you can market different products to them.

    However those products need to be of value to them in that they can help them solve their problems or fulfil their desires.

    3. Connect And Build Relationships With Your List Regularly

    This is another critical factor.

    You don't want to email them promotions after promotions all the time without giving substantial content.

    That is why having a blog is just as important as your landing page.

    So that you can email them your thoughts and experiences with a link to your blog posts so that they will see you as a real person and friend rather than just another marketer trying to make money off them with little or no regards as to what they can benefit from buying from you.

    4. Continue To Build Your Email List

    However strong your list may be whether it is 200, 500 or 1000 and beyond, there will always be people unsubscribing from you.

    As much as I hated to say this, this is part and parcel of running an online business which is the same as offline.

    After a while, people will get tired of reading from you and unsubscribe.

    So you need to continue to build your email list.

    As in driving traffic to your landing page and then your blog.

    5. Have Your Own FB Account, Fanpage And Group

    These are also essential.

    Most successful marketers have their own FB accounts, fanpage and groups for them to connect and interact with other like-minded people

    6. Create Your Own Youtube Channel And Videos

    This is by far the most powerful traffic method.

    That is if you are comfortable with being in front of camera, doing powerpoint presentations or both.

    7. Offline Networking

    You can also go to live events in your local area be it seminar previews or workshops or even mastermind sessions.

    There is one website I know that specializes in these.

    It is called Meetup.

    Hope these helps and answers your questions

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  • Profile picture of the author aizaku
    awwwww MLM

    did you guys know you cant advertise MLM systems on Facebook ads?


    fun fact, I was perusing FBads TOS to see what kinda of images I was allowed to post in my ad (for a dating niche camp.) and i learned MLM is not allowed..

    It's grouped in there with paypday loans, porn and misleading student loan opportunities

    - Ike Paz
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    • Profile picture of the author myob
      Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

      awwwww MLM

      did you guys know you cant advertise MLM systems on Facebook ads?
      Pants.

      The Facebook TOS specifies "unlawful" MLM systems cannot be advertised. Facebook is actually a highly robust and effective platform for legitimate MLM professionals. Even more effective than advertising, however is to use Facebook.Groups.
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    • Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

      awwwww MLM

      did you guys know you cant advertise MLM systems on Facebook ads?


      fun fact, I was perusing FBads TOS to see what kinda of images I was allowed to post in my ad (for a dating niche camp.) and i learned MLM is not allowed..

      It's grouped in there with paypday loans, porn and misleading student loan opportunities

      - Ike Paz
      That is why the whole lot of MLM companies are list as Pyramid schemes
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      • Profile picture of the author myob
        Originally Posted by Regional Warrior View Post

        That is why the whole lot of MLM companies are list as Pyramid schemes
        Where are these MLM companies listed as pyramid schemes? Pyramid schemes are illegal in nearly every country in the world.

        At least 25 of the major MLM companies are in the Fortune 500. Also known as network marketing, MLM is more like a franchise without the high cost of entry.
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        • Originally Posted by myob View Post

          Where are these MLM companies listed as pyramid schemes? Pyramid schemes are illegal in nearly every country in the world.

          At least 25 of the major MLM companies are in the Fortune 500. Also known as network marketing, MLM is more like a franchise without the high cost of entry.
          5 Huge Companies Accused of Being Pyramid Schemes
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          • Profile picture of the author myob
            Originally Posted by Regional Warrior View Post

            5 is nowhere near the "whole lot" of more than 10,000 MLM companies as you claim. Also, you missed in that report that the FTC declared the biggest one is NOT a pyramid scheme. Nice try, though.
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            • Originally Posted by myob View Post

              5 is nowhere near the "whole lot" of more than 10,000 MLM companies as you claim. Also, you missed in that report that the FTC declared the biggest one is NOT a pyramid scheme. Nice try, though.
              Do you do this on purpose hijacking threads and making it all about you ?? this is now the third one you have done this on so far

              And any other person would also understand that there is more out there than the USA and the FTC ruling means nothing and a lot of MLMs have been declared a pyramid schemes
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              • Profile picture of the author myob
                Originally Posted by Regional Warrior View Post

                Do you do this on purpose hijacking threads and making it all about you ?? this is now the third one you have done this on so far
                You lose ... again.

                Originally Posted by Regional Warrior View Post

                And any other person would also understand that there is more out there than the USA and the FTC ruling means nothing and a lot of MLMs have been declared a pyramid schemes
                So far, you haven't listed any MLM companies as pyramid schemes. And so far, you're only showing your ignorance.
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                • Originally Posted by myob View Post

                  You lose ... again.



                  So far, you haven't listed any MLM companies as pyramid schemes. And so far, you're only showing your ignorance.
                  All I can think of while I write this reply is the bloke in Simpsons the tech nerd and how he has to be right all the time

                  Oh and the fact that I don't give a flying fu$k what you think is not ignorance just been fishing and you bite all the time
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                  • Profile picture of the author myob
                    Originally Posted by Regional Warrior View Post

                    All I can think of while I write this reply is the bloke in Simpsons the tech nerd and how he has to be right all the time
                    I usually am right, as we've just seen in this thread.

                    Originally Posted by Regional Warrior View Post

                    Oh and the fact that I don't give a flying fu what you think is not ignorance just been fishing and you bite all the time
                    Thanks for playing. It's been fun.
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        • Profile picture of the author aizaku
          Originally Posted by myob View Post

          The Facebook TOS specifies "unlawful" MLM systems cannot be advertised.
          perhaps you can help....

          ...I've been looking for the claim you made (only "unlawful" mlm) on the FB ads TOS but I couldn't find it

          I just see MLM listed in the PROHIBITED CONTENT section of the FB ads TOS.

          maybe its gone now and FB decided that all MLM is prohibited content.

          Originally Posted by myob View Post

          At least 25 of the major MLM companies are in the Fortune 500. Also known as network marketing, MLM is more like a franchise without the high cost of entry.
          ok then, lets have a cursory look at things...

          Top three most profitable PURELY MLM companies are:

          1. Amway $9.50B
          2. Herbalife $4.47B
          3. Nu Skin $1.7B

          side note: i purposely excluded direct selling companies, direct selling/MLM hybrids and and companies that made the switch (DS to MLM | MLM to DS).

          now cross check on wiki for legal issues:

          1. Amway
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amway#...me_accusations

          2. Herbalife
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbal...me_allegations

          3. Nu Skin
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nu_Ski..._and_reception

          @myob,
          I dont know buddy... franchises are brand and product focused...

          ..whereas MLM is "recruitment" focused, which in turn incentivizes pure evil...

          -Ike Paz
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          • Profile picture of the author myob
            Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

            perhaps you can help....

            ...I've been looking for the claim you made (only "unlawful" mlm) on the FB ads TOS but I couldn't find it

            I just see MLM listed in the PROHIBITED CONTENT section of the FB ads TOS.

            maybe its gone now and FB decided that all MLM is prohibited content.
            You can advertise your legitimate MLM business on Facebook right here:
            https://www.facebook.com/groups/advertiseyourmlm


            Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

            ok then, lets have a cursory look at things...

            Top three most profitable PURELY MLM companies are:

            1. Amway $9.50B
            2. Herbalife $4.47B
            3. Nu Skin $1.7B

            side note: i purposely excluded direct selling companies, direct selling/MLM hybrids and and companies that made the switch (DS to MLM | MLM to DS).

            now cross check on wiki for legal issues:

            1. Amway
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amway#...me_accusations

            2. Herbalife
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbal...me_allegations

            3. Nu Skin
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nu_Ski..._and_reception

            @myob,
            I dont know buddy... franchises are brand and product focused...

            ..whereas MLM is "recruitment" focused, which in turn incentivizes pure evil...

            -Ike Paz
            The MLM industry is highly regulated by the FTC and similar regulatory agencies throughout the world. Number 1 was declared not a pyramid scheme back in 1979. Number 2 lawsuits were dismissed in 2015. Number 3 is not much more than a public divorce story. China had once declared it to be a pyramid scheme briefly, but was reinstated and they are thriving there.
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            • Profile picture of the author aizaku
              Originally Posted by myob View Post

              You can advertise your legitimate MLM business on Facebook right here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/advertiseyourmlm
              Thanks a bunch for the fb group page you provided...

              ..but i was talking about the official facebook ads page:

              Advertising Policies>Prohibited Content>MLM
              https://www.facebook.com/policies/ad...ng_experiences

              I'm sure there are some front end loopholes or tactics to get an MLM type of message out there on facebook ads

              but its prohibited nonetheless (not even controversial,there's a section for that too, no, it's straight up prohibited)... so dont get caught building your "down" line.


              Originally Posted by myob View Post

              Number 1 was declared not a pyramid scheme back in 1979.
              at least in america :-)

              let us not forget India

              and the 2010 settlement back in the states

              Originally Posted by myob View Post

              Number 2 lawsuits were dismissed in 2015.
              correct me if im wrong but I'm pretty sure herbalife settled out of court for $200 mil

              and dont leave out the destruction it left in latino communities across the US


              Originally Posted by myob View Post

              Number 3 is not much more than a public divorce story. China had once declared it to be a pyramid scheme briefly, but was reinstated and they are thriving there.
              again they had to pay a fine..

              wiki:
              " it was announced in March 2014 that the Chinese government would fine Nu Skin for approximately $540,000 dollars due to illegal sales as well as making false product claims."

              are these the actions of the innocent?

              and why are these types of "businesses" always embroiled in pyramid scheme-type issues?

              all the best,
              Ike Paz
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              • Profile picture of the author myob
                Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

                are these the actions of the innocent?
                ROFLMAO!!! If you're looking for the "innocent", stay away from Facebook, Amazon, Clickbank, JvZoo, WSOs, Walmart, banks, Wall Street, or anyone trying to sell you something.
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                • Profile picture of the author aizaku
                  Originally Posted by myob View Post

                  ROFLMAO!!! If you're looking for the "innocent", stay away from Facebook, Amazon, Clickbank, JvZoo, WSOs, Walmart, banks, Wall Street, or anyone trying to sell you something.
                  businesses innocent of being pyramid schemes?

                  I would hope so... But I guess that's too much to ask....
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    • Profile picture of the author joseph7384
      Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

      awwwww MLM

      did you guys know you cant advertise MLM systems on Facebook ads?
      - Ike Paz

      You also cannot promote affiliate links, JVzoo links or Clickbank links on Facebook. So what is your point?
      Signature

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  • Profile picture of the author Danny Cutts
    rule one of starting a business... dont build a business on the back of someone elses business...
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  • Profile picture of the author flamewave
    This got heated real quick. The simple truth of any offer is if it seems to good to be true, it usually is.
    Signature
    Looking for web design that actually makes you money?
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  • Profile picture of the author ryanbiddulph
    Anything you LOVE Mr Nice, works like a charm. Anything you have fun doing, works awesome. Money-wise.

    All losing ventures sprout from hopping in with the wrong driver. Namely, trying to make money or gain fame, or diving into a venture you feel unclear on because you are chasing money. MLM does rock for guys like Ray Higdon and Doug Firebaugh because these guys love the niche. Have mad fun working the niche. So follow that passion and thy profits shall follow you.
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    Ryan Biddulph, Blogger, Author, World Traveling Digital Nomad
    Retire to a Life of Island Hopping through Smart Blogging at Blogging From Paradise
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  • I've always had 2 concerns with MLM.

    1. The products are often junk, usually lotions, potions, and pills i.e. supplements and creams.

    2. You are relying on the ability of others to sell, most can't.

    Here are my questions:

    Of the successful MLM's out there, what products are they selling?

    I've heard that the internet has taken away the need to recruit and sell. People either find a website or get pointed to one from someone they know and then they repeat the process. Is that true? How are the "downlines" being maintained?

    Thanks.
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    • Profile picture of the author myob
      Originally Posted by mobilemarketer2012 View Post

      I've always had 2 concerns with MLM.

      1. The products are often junk, usually lotions, potions, and pills i.e. supplements and creams.
      True, so one should avoid joining such companies.

      Originally Posted by mobilemarketer2012 View Post

      2. You are relying on the ability of others to sell, most can't.
      This method actually is ideal for those who can't sell. Unlike any other form of marketing, there are layers of people with a vested interest in their downlines' success.

      Originally Posted by mobilemarketer2012 View Post

      Of the successful MLM's out there, what products are they selling?
      There are millionaire distributors in every mature MLM company.

      Originally Posted by mobilemarketer2012 View Post

      I've heard that the internet has taken away the need to recruit and sell. People either find a website or get pointed to one from someone they know and then they repeat the process. Is that true? How are the "downlines" being maintained?
      The internet is only a tool and usually it is towards the conclusion of many steps when a prospect is pointed to a company branded website. The most successful in network marketing provide training, tools, coaching, etc through daily or at least weekly personal contact using multiple online/offline communication channels.
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  • Profile picture of the author jdpierce21
    Originally Posted by Mr Nice View Post

    Hello, I've been around a bit looking for ways to make money online and I've been sucked into the MLM business which you join and then you have to get others to join by telling them how much money you make.

    After looking at that its not for me. So what can I do to make money?

    Does anyone have any suggestions?

    What I did like about the make money online MLM programs is you get a proven sales funnel, I.E. Capture pages, Auto Responder emails.

    I'm not saying MLM is bad I just don't like the MLM programs that talk about making money online. I would rather be involved in a MLM program that actually has a product a very good product that helps people or takes pain away from people.

    I'm open to any suggestions.

    Thank you

    Mr Nice
    Do you feel like you've been "sucked in" because you didn't make any money?

    If it weren't for MLM I probably still be clueless.

    One could argue that 90% of products are some form MLM. Someone buys from something and someone sells it. Unless you are crafting that product yourself (that's where I put the 10%) then someone bought it from someone else and then sells it.

    I think where MLM gets a bad rep is being confused as a ponzi scheme.
    Signature

    Cheers,
    Joe @ sfi-coop.com

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    • Profile picture of the author eccj
      Originally Posted by jdpierce21 View Post

      Do you feel like you've been "sucked in" because you didn't make any money?

      If it weren't for MLM I probably still be clueless.

      One could argue that 90% of products are some form MLM. Someone buys from something and someone sells it. Unless you are crafting that product yourself (that's where I put the 10%) then someone bought it from someone else and then sells it.

      I think where MLM gets a bad rep is being confused as a ponzi scheme.
      I can't for the life of me remember anyone ever trying to sell me their "soap." It was always the opportunity.

      Seriously, just try to ask the pros in MLM what the product is or what it does and they will tell you to not worry about. They tell you to imagine that if you get 10 who get 10 who get 10 and they all sell just a little then you will be rich.

      Maybe their is an MLM out there that actually sells they soap; to people OTHER than the distributors but I haven't seen nor heard of it.

      MLM sells a lie and that is why people hate it. If 10 get 10 get 10 you are looking at a thousand people. If those 1000 get 10 get 10 you are looking at 100,000 people. So yeah the numbers, ie, "the opportunity' looks amazing but it is impossible. If 100,000 people in my town are selling this crap then who is going to buy it?

      Nobody but the distributors that's who.

      But there is a lot of money to be made having a bunch of true believers buying your soap and lotions.

      And if MLM is nothing but wholesaling then go out and find a real wholesaler and your margins will double.
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      • Originally Posted by eccj View Post

        I can't for the life of me remember anyone ever trying to sell me their "soap." It was always the opportunity.

        Seriously, just try to ask the pros in MLM what the product is or what it does and they will tell you to not worry about. They tell you to imagine that if you get 10 who get 10 who get 10 and they all sell just a little then you will be rich.

        Maybe their is an MLM out there that actually sells they soap; to people OTHER than the distributors but I haven't seen nor heard of it.

        MLM sells a lie and that is why people hate it. If 10 get 10 get 10 you are looking at a thousand people. If those 1000 get 10 get 10 you are looking at 100,000 people. So yeah the numbers, in, "the opportunity' looks amazing but it is impossible. If 100,000 people in my town are selling this crap then who is going to buy it?

        Nobody but the distributors that's who.

        But there is a lot of money to be made having a bunch of true believers buying your soap and lotions.

        And if MLM is nothing but wholesaling then go out and find a real wholesaler and your margins will double.
        Here is an MLM truth.

        The average MLM distributor gets less than one distributor in their downline.

        How do I know? Because if every distributor simply got one distributor in their downline...and there were only one MLM in business on the planet..eventually, everyone on the planet would still be in that MLM. And that isn't the case.

        As hard as this is going to be to accept, the vast majority of MLM distributors are the same 1 or 2% of the adult population, and they keep recruiting each other. MLM Junkies.

        A few companies have products built to be actually sold, with enough profit built in, to make it profitable to just sell. NSA and EcoQuest come to mind.Maybe Pre-Paid Legal.

        I know a guy that sold (maybe still does) Pre-Paid Legal memberships to huge groups of "Credit Repair" seminar attendees, making a million a year. I don't think he ever recruited anyone. He told me he might part with the company, because they wouldn't work out a deal to sell to him directly.

        I've only had MLM people talk to me about the product, to sell the opportunity. And when you hear about a business opportunity, from a non-businessperson...the opportunity always sounds AMAZING.

        And amazingly...every product sold by MLM cured cancer. I've never gone to an MLM meeting, where it wasn't claimed that the product was a Miracle..and cured cancer..among other diseases. even products that weren't ingested, like air purifiers.

        The reason I'd never consider another MLM is that there is sooooo little profit to be made per sale. Almost any distribution method generates higher profits.

        Even my EcoQuest air purifiers, I used to pay $350 or so each, to retail for $599 at malls and home shows. Profitable...but now I have them made for me in China, identical in every way, and they cost me $70 each, freighted in. All you have to do is buy 2,000 at a time. There are 3 of us businessowners that buy together.

        I retail them out of my store, sell to other stores (for $169), and sell online. ...for $495.

        And that Miracle Cream? That Miracle Vitamin? The ones you are paying $49 a bottle for? They are being made with a private label by a lab for about $3 a bottle. Or $2 a tube.
        And the MLM is "wholesaling it" to their distributors for $42...to retail for $49.

        Welcome to the real world.
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        • Profile picture of the author eccj
          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

          Here is an MLM truth.

          The average MLM distributor gets less than one distributor in their downline.

          How do I know? Because if every distributor simply got one distributor in their downline...and there were only one MLM in business on the planet..eventually, everyone on the planet would still be in that MLM. And that isn't the case.


          As hard as this is going to be to accept, the vast majority of MLM distributors are the same 1 or 2% of the adult population, and they keep recruiting each other. MLM Junkies.
          That's a very powerful example. Much better than my example.

          It goes to show the flaw in the whole concept.

          Forget getting ten people. They can't even get one.
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  • Profile picture of the author Danny Cutts
    This has to be one of the most amusing threads I have read on here in a long long time

    I am now unsubscribing... its been fun!!
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    • Profile picture of the author myob
      Originally Posted by Danny Cutts View Post

      This has to be one of the most amusing threads I have read on here in a long long time

      I am now unsubscribing... its been fun!!
      Hold on, this was only the prelude. You ain't seen nuthin' yet! Coming up are some exemplary salient points.