The way we sell = the way we like to be sold?

25 replies
A few years, someone from my local bank called me trying to sell me bonds.

I wasn't interested, I like index funds a lot so I told her why.

To my great surprise, she told me something along the lines :"You don't have tens of millions in the bank, and so index funds aren't suitable for you."

And then she proceeded to pitch me like this:
"Why wouldn't you have access to the best financial advisers in the business and blah blah?"

It got me thinking: did this girl actually believe what she says? We ended up arguing so the pitch clearly needed polish (either this or I'm argumentative), but would she be amenable to a different sales style pitching the same main idea?

In a one call close, it seems pretty useless knowledge, because I think if you let the prospect argue, the salesman has lost control of the call and it's an upside hill battle at best.

If that is true for sales, what about outside that context? Could we infer something from a businessman speaking at a community event? I did notice that most when they argue about something rarely pay heed to the other party. They argue whatever it is they believe and so tip a bit of their hand in the process.

Thoughts?
#sell #sold
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  • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
    It seems like most people have a
    affirmation bias.

    Meaning they will look for confirmation as to what they believe,
    or turn off that doesn't fit current beliefs.

    Both of you had opposing beliefs about Index Funds
    then told why each other was wrong.

    It almost ends badly when two people are seeking to affirm existing beliefs
    that are opposite to each other when interacting.

    BTW, CHECK YOUR INBOX
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  • Profile picture of the author RuskinF
    ewenmack explained it perfectly. Both the saleswoman and you got into an argument because both of you had antithetical ideas. And yes, you're right, people sell the way they want to be sold.
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  • Profile picture of the author SARubin
    I have a slightly different take on it...

    Average sales people sell the way they like to be sold

    Excellent sales people are more empathetic, and they ask questions... then they sell the way the customer wants to buy.

    At least that's how I do it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
    Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

    A few years, someone from my local bank called me trying to sell me bonds.

    I wasn't interested, I like index funds a lot so I told her why.

    To my great surprise, she told me something along the lines :"You don't have tens of millions in the bank, and so index funds aren't suitable for you."

    And then she proceeded to pitch me like this:
    "Why wouldn't you have access to the best financial advisers in the business and blah blah?"
    Unfortunately, the vast majority of salespeople (like any other people) are not self aware enough to realize that what they are saying would never work on them. They have their point that they need to get out, and so they argue. And arguing is not selling. It never makes sales.

    When I hear an objection the first time, my first thought is "If I had said that, what would I have to hear to convince me?" It's never what I hear from salespeople.



    Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

    It got me thinking: did this girl actually believe what she says? We ended up arguing so the pitch clearly needed polish (either this or I'm argumentative), but would she be amenable to a different sales style pitching the same main idea?
    It's not a matter of whether she believes what she says. Bad salespeople (the lower 99%) are only thinking of their position, and are attacking any opposing position. Whether their answer makes sense at all never enters their mind.


    Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

    In a one call close, it seems pretty useless knowledge, because I think if you let the prospect argue, the salesman has lost control of the call and it's an upside hill battle at best.
    That's right, arguing means you have already lost. Because the end result is that the prospect wins the argument by not buying.


    Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

    If that is true for sales, what about outside that context? Could we infer something from a businessman speaking at a community event? I did notice that most when they argue about something rarely pay heed to the other party. They argue whatever it is they believe and so tip a bit of their hand in the process.

    Thoughts?
    This is why it's so very hard to train someone to sell competently. Selling is counter intuitive. It's normal to talk past the prospect, and argue your case. It's normal to get angry and think the opposing person is an idiot.

    I notice in debates, they talk past each other. There is no conversation, no influencing, no learning taking place.


    Decades ago, when I was in my early 20s...my ex-wife ran up our Sears card, and she hid the fact that we weren't paying from me. They called one day and tried to collect. The woman on the other end said "Aren't you man enough to pay your bills?"

    I said "Does that approach ever work? Because you have now convinced me that you are my opponent. And I can just hang up and not pay"....which is what I did.

    In fact, the vast majority of books on answering sales objections just give you pithy sayings, or arguments where you are talking past the prospect. Almost never do you see real answers that solve the problem and move the sale forward.

    Added a few minutes later;


    When someone gives an objection (or asks a hard question), there are perhaps 1,000 ways to answer. Maybe 800 of those responses kill the sale. Maybe 195 answers are neutral, and don't hurt the sale. Maybe 5 possible answers handle the question...and move you closer to the goal (of getting the sale, or getting money).

    The problem is...the vast...vast majority of people in selling can't tell the difference, and blame the response on the sales prospect.

    And the people I know that have the skill needed to give the best answers...are usually either high end copywriters or high end marketers. And 2 or 3 people here. A tip here...most of what I learned about really getting to the core of selling, came from studying copywriting.
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    • Profile picture of the author SARubin
      Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

      This is why it's so very hard to train someone to sell competently. Selling is counter intuitive. It's normal to talk past the prospect, and argue your case. It's normal to get angry and think the opposing person is an idiot.


      The problem is...the vast...vast majority of people in selling can't tell the difference, and blame the response on the sales prospect.
      Yeah, it seems like most people are trapped inside their own egos (I'm no exception to that rule).

      And I guess as sales professionals we need to have oversized egos. Otherwise we might take rejection as a personal insult, and be crushed every time someone rejects our offer.


      It can take a lot of empathy to get out of our own heads, and get in tune with the customers world. But like someone told me years ago... Unless we plan on buying 100% of our own market share, we really do need to think about what our customers want.
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  • Profile picture of the author ryanbiddulph
    I find it so much easier to gain someone's trust by offering them free, helpful information. The moment I become credible in someone's eyes, I do not try to sell. People just buy my stuff. This process takes a bit longer than the TRYING to sell pitch thingee, but is so much easier and leads to ever-increasing sales. No energy wasted being AGAINST, since I am just helping folks who are FOR and WITH me.

    Ryan
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    • Profile picture of the author DABK
      It is a hard thing for many to put themselves into someone else's shoes. Some of them are in sales and, often, their inability to do that leads to situations that I find amusing. I assume they do not, since they are lising sales.

      When I bought my first car, I walked into a dealership where a guy in his mid twenties convinced himself very fast that I cared about horse power and torque and impressing the ladies.

      I am lazy, did not want to go to another dealer and the other sales people on the lot figured I was that guy's sale.

      I could not make him comprehend though I tried that I wanted a new or almost, blue car with 4 doors and 4 wheels and I did not care about anything else that would cost no more than $300 a month with only 2k upfront.

      He would agree with me, say, yes we gave this one in blue and soon he would be back to horse power.

      8 or 9 times we did that before he got tired and showed me what I wanted and shut up about horses.

      We all make a lot of assumptions. Some of us are more certain that our assumptions are facts. And, then, butt heads.

      Every now and again, I find myself doing what I preach against here. Go figure.

      And change approach. I must be confusing as hell when I do that.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by ryanbiddulph View Post

      I find it so much easier to gain someone's trust by offering them free, helpful information. The moment I become credible in someone's eyes, I do not try to sell. People just buy my stuff. This process takes a bit longer than the TRYING to sell pitch thingee, but is so much easier and leads to ever-increasing sales. No energy wasted being AGAINST, since I am just helping folks who are FOR and WITH me.

      Ryan
      That sounds like how Russell Brunson and Frank Kern sell. Lots of information freely given.

      But they are building trust, building an attractive character, building reciprocity, building desire to be part of their tribe. They are essentially building a kind of cult around them, so that sales just seem to happen.

      But it is all highly choreographed. Highly strategic. and highly advanced selling.

      And of course, when they are talking to prospects, you don't see the selling at all. But believe me, they aren't just falling into sales. You just don't see the "Trying", in the same way great actors hide the "acting".

      I have no idea if any of that applies to you.
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    • Profile picture of the author socialentry
      Originally Posted by ryanbiddulph View Post

      This process takes a bit longer than the TRYING to sell pitch thingee,



      Ryan

      Well, with all the CAPS and references to FEAR and the universe, LOA and so on and so forth (alongside a not-so-conspicious sig link), what is that you're doing if not a "sell pitch thingee"?
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  • Profile picture of the author umc
    Yes, people like to sell in the same way they like to be sold.

    I find people at the bank to be forced into selling x number of whatever and they try to force the sale and can be quite rude. They are sold on the products their bank sells, or if they aren't then they are trying to believe in it by pushing it on others. I have no credit. I have money. I had the teller try to get me to get their credit card. I said no thanks. She pushed farther, I said no thanks, I don't do credit, I live debt free. She pushed farther, but how do you buy things? I said, with money. She and I live different lives. There was little she could do to sell me on the need for something that I don't want. It could be done (there is actually one time I've wished I had credit), but she wasn't interested in asking questions or finding it, she was busy telling me that I had to be like her, not trying to find out who I was.

    For me it has been a problem at times because I will bristle if I feel like I'm being pushed or not listened to. There are a lot of people out there that want to be sold, that want to be told what to do, and that want to be pushed into something. A lot. People also want to believe in ridiculous things with no proof behind them, and there's a huge market there for such things, but I struggle to be the person to sell those things as I don't believe in them.

    We humans are infinitely interesting.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by umc View Post

      For me it has been a problem at times because I will bristle if I feel like I'm being pushed or not listened to.
      That's the key. Really listening to someone is a high compliment. But most people aren't listening. They are waiting for the other person to stop talking, so they can tell their own story, or make their own point.

      This ...unfortunately...transfers to the way they sell. Why? Because to nearly everyone in selling...this is the way you sell. To them, there is no difference between a regular conversation and selling. To most, selling is a form of arguing.



      Originally Posted by umc View Post

      There are a lot of people out there that want to be sold, that want to be told what to do, and that want to be pushed into something. A lot. People also want to believe in ridiculous things with no proof behind them, and there's a huge market there for such things, but I struggle to be the person to sell those things as I don't believe in them.

      We humans are infinitely interesting.
      People love to be sold. People love to be catered to...seduced...paid attention to...shown love...admired....proven right...shown respect...listened to....and they want to feel like they are part of something larger than themselves. We are all like that. And for the person that realizes this, selling is easy.

      Selling is hard when the salesperson sticks with their normal way of thinking, and so has to fight the buyer's normal way of thinking.


      That last sentence should be etched in granite.
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      • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        That's the key. Really listening to someone is a high compliment. But most people aren't listening. They are waiting for the other person to stop talking, so they can tell their own story, or make their own point.

        This ...unfortunately...transfers to the way they sell. Why? Because to nearly everyone in selling...this is the way you sell. To them, there is no difference between a regular conversation and selling. To most, selling is a form of arguing.





        People love to be sold. People love to be catered to...seduced...paid attention to...shown love...admired....proven right...shown respect...listened to....and they want to feel like they are part of something larger than themselves. We are all like that. And for the person that realizes this, selling is easy.

        Selling is hard when the salesperson sticks with their normal way of thinking, and so has to fight the buyer's normal way of thinking.


        That last sentence should be etched in granite.
        Claude,

        I could be totally out in right field on this one, but...

        in another thread, about Micro body movements and body language in the sales process I sort of asserted a really good sales person, like yourself, operates in the eye of the hurricane.

        In calm. Self assurance. And without emitting the stench of selling which is quickly picked up by those people we want to sell something to.

        When a stranger walks into your store, do you enter a state of calm, or do you get quickened and on alert?

        I imagine a calm Claude who gets even calmer as the sale progresses. Did I miss the mark?

        GordonJ
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by GordonJ View Post

          Claude,

          I could be totally out in right field on this one, but...

          in another thread, about Micro body movements and body language in the sales process I sort of asserted a really good sales person, like yourself, operates in the eye of the hurricane.

          In calm. Self assurance. And without emitting the stench of selling which is quickly picked up by those people we want to sell something to.

          When a stranger walks into your store, do you enter a state of calm, or do you get quickened and on alert?
          For me, nothing changes. I've been doing it so long, my default state is relaxed and slightly more aware than most.


          Originally Posted by GordonJ View Post

          I imagine a calm Claude who gets even calmer as the sale progresses. Did I miss the mark?

          GordonJ
          No. You got it right.

          You might find this interesting. When I'm doing any sale, in the store, in an office, in someone's home...it's all the same to me. My full focus is on the customer. What can I do for this person? How can I best advise them? It's only when I'm out of their field of vision that I actually think about what I sold, or how much money I made.

          This was a slow evolution over decades. By nature, I'm more judgmental and intolerant. And it's hard for me to hide it. But when I'm dealing with a sales prospect, my nature changes to a calm, thoughtful, friendlier version. And after they leave, (or after I leave) I'm back to my normal self.

          What you call "the stench of selling" I think of as the stench of desperation. My default mode is "The last 100 people bought from me, and you're next". Not in an arrogant way, but in the confidence that most people buy from me, and that buying is the natural...expected thing to do.

          And although all of this is just a huge complex matrix of learned techniques, It's all subconscious by now, automatic. I assume it's like that for the other high end salespeople here.
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  • Profile picture of the author Odahh
    I read the post . But the entire time I have been wondering if the sales Reb for the bank had any idea of what an index fund was .

    I get really mad with sales people when I pick up they are trying to sell me what they have and not what I want .

    The again before I was diagnosed bi polar 12years ago and big costly purchases I made tended to during manic up states or at the start . The sales people really didn't do much selling.

    And now I despise haveing debt buying stuff so if I wanted a high price vacume cleaner. I'd make sure I knew what I wanted before I went orhow much I was willing to spend .pull in front of Claude store walk in the store point at the one I wanted . And at that point it's up to the rep not to talk me out of it.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by Odahh View Post


      And now I despise haveing debt buying stuff so if I wanted a high price vacume cleaner. I'd make sure I knew what I wanted before I went orhow much I was willing to spend .pull in front of Claude store walk in the store point at the one I wanted . And at that point it's up to the rep not to talk me out of it.
      In many ways, that's what happens here every day. People do research, watch videos, read reviews...and then they come in ready to buy a specific thing. maybe 40% of our sales is that. The rest are people that didn't consciously come in to buy a new vacuum cleaner. They came in for parts, or to get a repair done.

      But I can tell by their questions and demeanor, if they are ...in the back of their mind...wondering about getting a new vacuum. If I see that, I'll ask questions that lead over to the demonstration area of our store.

      And if I can get them to sit down? About 80% buy. These sales were created. Nearly anyone can get the easy sales.

      By the way, when I was selling vacuums in people's homes? I can count the number of times they wanted to by before I got there ...on one hand. Usually, they had talked to each other and promised not to buy anything from me...no matter what. And still, maybe half bought from me.

      Compared to that, selling when someone walks through your door...and actually wants to talk to you? A piece of cake.
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  • Profile picture of the author Max Ambrose
    It is all about believe' Whether you are buying that bonds or not.
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  • Profile picture of the author misterme
    Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

    And then she proceeded to pitch me like this:
    "Why wouldn't you have access to the best financial advisers in the business and blah blah?"

    It got me thinking: did this girl actually believe what she says?
    In the financial services arena, yes, they're trained to sincerely believe in their products. They think they're helping people.

    Those companies HATE index funds because there's no money in it for their so called "financial advisers."

    So the things they're brainwashed to believe are absolutely absurd and designed to frighten the average naive investor.

    But consider that Warren Buffet has more than ten million, advocates index funds for the average person and he wants his invested in an index fund (90%) and a bond fund (10%) when he's gone to take care of his wife.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by misterme View Post

      In the financial services arena, yes, they're trained to sincerely believe in their products. They think they're helping people.
      I know it's true, but it's difficult for me to believe it. For some reason, salespeople genuinely believe that what they sell is the best option...without ever considering that there are a thousand other options.

      In vacuum cleaners there are a couple brands that are low profit. Most dealers say that they are terrible..but they aren't. They are good quality and do the same job as any other vacuum cleaner.

      But even in private conversations, these sellers will maintain their view that these vacuums are terrible, and the more profitable brands are better.

      I've actually looked at them and asked "I know why you have to say that...but do you truly believe it? Do you really think there is a difference in quality?".

      And without exception, they believe their story.

      At one time, I changed suppliers and brands(of a high end vacuum cleaner). My sales force and managers were at a meeting with me, and several started saying how much better this one was than the machine they were selling just a day ago. And most were flipping to a very negative view of the old model...that just a day ago, was the greatest thing made.

      I asked a few later that day..in private ...if they meant it. And they were convinced.

      One of my managers asked me if I really didn't see the superiority. I said "Well, I used to sell a motor wrapped in a piece of plastic. Now I sell a motor wrapped in a different piece of plastic. Only now, I'm paying less."

      I'm truly baffled how salespeople (or anyone) can really believe their own story, when the facts say otherwise. I can sell the Kool-aid...without drinking it. Of course, that also means that I cannot enjoy a nice glass of Kool-aid.
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      • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        I know it's true, but it's difficult for me to believe it. For some reason, salespeople genuinely believe that what they sell is the best option...without ever considering that there are a thousand other options.

        In vacuum cleaners there are a couple brands that are low profit. Most dealers say that they are terrible..but they aren't. They are good quality and do the same job as any other vacuum cleaner.

        But even in private conversations, these sellers will maintain their view that these vacuums are terrible, and the more profitable brands are better.

        I've actually looked at them and asked "I know why you have to say that...but do you truly believe it? Do you really think there is a difference in quality?".

        And without exception, they believe their story.

        At one time, I changed suppliers and brands(of a high end vacuum cleaner). My sales force and managers were at a meeting with me, and several started saying how much better this one was than the machine they were selling just a day ago. And most were flipping to a very negative view of the old model...that just a day ago, was the greatest thing made.

        I asked a few later that day..in private ...if they meant it. And they were convinced.

        One of my managers asked me if I really didn't see the superiority. I said "Well, I used to sell a motor wrapped in a piece of plastic. Now I sell a motor wrapped in a different piece of plastic. Only now, I'm paying less."

        I'm truly baffled how salespeople (or anyone) can really believe their own story, when the facts say otherwise. I can sell the Kool-aid...without drinking it. Of course, that also means that I cannot enjoy a nice glass of Kool-aid.

        It could be they do know other options may be better,
        but would never, ever admit it
        because
        their last statements
        would make them "lose face" as the Japanese would say.

        To do that is like a slow painful death,
        which is going to be avoided at all other costs.

        Best,
        Ewen
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        • Profile picture of the author DABK
          Losing face is for dealing with others. Cognitive dissonance could be at work too. Some believe it just because they cannot push something as the best while thinking otherwise.


          Originally Posted by ewenmack View Post

          It could be they do know other options may be better,
          but would never, ever admit it
          because
          their last statements
          would make them "lose face" as the Japanese would say.

          To do that is like a slow painful death,
          which is going to be avoided at all other costs.

          Best,
          Ewen
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          • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
            Originally Posted by DABK View Post

            Losing face is for dealing with others. Cognitive dissonance could be at work too. Some believe it just because they cannot push something as the best while thinking otherwise.
            In this case it could be cognitive dissonance and losing face.

            The reason I say that is...it's impossible to know another person's mental process completely.

            Even though they are just talking to me.
            Even though they have no reason to lie.

            They still....still....have to keep a mental congruence with what they have claimed.

            As to how much is saving face and how much is an unconscious bias...I don't know. And I don't know how to find out.

            But someone selling a specific product (or idea) who is invested in that product being the best....will, I think, force themselves to believe what they say, because people cannot consciously lie to others without paying a cost emotionally.

            At least that's an idea, the last two were at least that good.
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            • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
              Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

              In this case it could be cognitive dissonance and losing face.

              The reason I say that is...it's impossible to know another person's mental process completely.

              Even though they are just talking to me.
              Even though they have no reason to lie.

              They still....still....have to keep a mental congruence with what they have claimed.

              As to how much is saving face and how much is an unconscious bias...I don't know. And I don't know how to find out.


              But someone selling a specific product (or idea) who is invested in that product being the best....will, I think, force themselves to believe what they say, because people cannot consciously lie to others without paying a cost emotionally.

              At least that's an idea, the last two were at least that good.
              When I was a young chap suckling on the teat of ignorance I was offered my first sales job.

              Fast forward 20 something years and I understand I wasn't offered anything, I was seduced by a professional sales recruiter.

              At that particular sales job, I was young and making good to me money. I had no reason to question anything. I've noticed salespeople tend to question more about the product or service when they don't make as many sales as their over-inflated ego tells them that they should be making.

              My point about not questioning anything is two-fold, one if you're happy and let's face it when you're making money, generally speaking, your happy so why question anything? There is no point and your lizard brain knows it.

              My second point is a little more convoluted and might be tainted from personal experience. When I opened my first salesroom that was big enough to hire a sales trainer the results from her efforts were miserable. Considering I was taught how to make it all happen with hands-on experience I had no idea what was happening, other then I must have made a mistake in who I hired to train. I sat in a few days of her classes and could not identify ANYTHING.

              She was doing what I taught her, which was what I was taught and that was very schoolroom like teaching, big board, tests, script reading product knowledge.... blah blah.

              The results sucked.

              Took me some time to figure out what was up. I was in the tech industry and I was basically teaching non-techy people tech. That shit is and always will be boring.

              So we revamped everything. First, we extended the training to 6 weeks
              and in the first two weeks instead of teaching all the mundane boring tech stuff. We sold the classroom.

              That's right. We sold them on us and our product line and then we used the rest of the training time to train AND to enforce the indoctrination that they were super lucky to be with us and even luckier to be selling our stuff.

              I'm going to assume many many others figured that out too and most salespeople trained past the '90s are indeed taught to drink the cool-aid FIRST
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        • Profile picture of the author savidge4
          Originally Posted by ewenmack View Post

          would make them "lose face" as the Japanese would say.
          mentsu wo ushinau

          Originally Posted by ewenmack View Post

          To do that is like a slow painful death,
          which is going to be avoided at all other costs.
          Seppuku aka Hara-kiri
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          Success is an ACT not an idea
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  • Profile picture of the author Odahh
    Mr buffet well there is a good reason he promotes index fund investing. If you can buy birkshird Hathaway stock . You probably would go crazy trying to buy stock in the companies it invests in.

    So buy investing in index fund the index fund buy all the stocks and thus increase the value of the market and all the holdings of Hathaway
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