Does cold calling still work?

61 replies
The greater number of times an exact action is repeated, the greater the possibility of the desired outcome.

I am arguably the Warrior forums greatest teacher of telemarketing.... coming at you TEN YEARS LATER...

Here is my answer:

Cold calling will never NOT WORK...

However the number of exact actions required to receive the same desired result has increased considerably, when using a cold calling, telemarketing strategy.

I taught telemarketing when I thought it could help people..., and I taught it WELL.

If you are totally desperate it still will save your ass in a heart beat, but things are evolving, and it isnt necessarily the BEST way anymore... , even for "average" people.

Thus, I do not teach anymore.

There are better ways now. They are more akin to the disposition of a new generation, however; the principles still apply to all marketing.

Will telemarketing work for any average person, to get a sale? Yes.

Is it optimal in this time?

My answer would honestly be "No".

Training telemarketing was my WHOLE LIFE... I was the best, and I was the BEST trainer... and it still works... but I could not teach it today with a clear conscious, because times have changed , and it is not the best way, though it's principles still endure.

It was the best way for average people with little internet knowledge back then... but today , even average people can employ internet marketing tactics, with all the new , simple to use, internet marketing technologies and tactics..., and there are much better ways for them than telemarketing.

Although... there is still more power in person to person communication, and an internet generated warm lead can still be closed more powerfully by phone...; cold calling itself, on cold prospects, in 2020, is not the best way, even for "average" people.

In 2020 average people with little computer knowledge can more easily use the internet, than they can learn to cold call.

When it was not a dying concept, I would tell you, shamelessly.... but when it became one? Yes. I have an obligation to tell you.

Even if you are starting from scratch, the internet has better solutions for you today, which are much better options, with far greater odds in your favor.

If that is still too much for you, then call til you get a sale. You will assuredly get one. But there are much easier and simpler ways now, that are much easier to grasp.

JD
#calling #cold #work
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  • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
    I used it this week to get in touch with director and VP-level contacts at large organizations like universities, hospitals, health care orgs, on behalf of a client.

    TARGETED phone prospecting, with a specific purpose, focus, mission is incredibly effective. Especially if you have the right persona and wording to begin the call.

    Where people go wrong is they:

    -don't pre-qualify their list to vastly increase the chances of the recipients having the problem to be solved

    -have no idea what to say to begin the call and so crash & burn (if you don't begin the call well, you don't get the rest of it)

    -have zero sales process, so the prospect's behavior is a mystery...

    ...your goal might be to simply engage first contact and "get on their radar" for this call, to be followed up with a deeper conversation later after info has been sent the prospect can review on their own time that establishes trust...


    I was calling the cell phones of these executives, many of whom had not just hundreds but tens of thousands of employees--one with 80 different business units--reporting to them.

    Not one asked me how I got their number, and not one was anything but calm with me.

    Targeted phone prospecting with expertise is an incredibly useful and FAST way of connecting with valuable decision makers.

    The way most people do it is emotionally terrible, inefficient and ineffective.
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  • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
    What's average? Business owners by definition aren't average.

    Consistency and simplicity can make just about anything work.
    ...and in my humble opinion, there is nothing easier than asking for the money.
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    • Profile picture of the author John Durham
      Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

      What's average? Business owners by definition aren't average.

      Consistency and simplicity can make just about anything work.
      ...and in my humble opinion, there is nothing easier than asking for the money.
      "Average" in my example, is a person who does not have alot of experience in marketing or sales, or any kind of super talent for it. You certainly are not average Ken, so asking people for money is not surprisingly, easy for you...

      However, since the beginning of marketing "asking for money", or (closing), has been the difficult part for most (hence; "average" ) people.

      As I stated in my previous post: Telemarketing will never NOT work... but we do exist in an environment today whereby attraction marketing and calling on warm leads....lets say generated from an authority book on amazon, for example, are much easier to generate for an average person, than they used to be.

      A person does not even have to know how to design a website anymore, or to even HAVE one, in order to market or advertise.... and there is so much good "copy and paste" ad copy out there, that they can access, which is already proven to work ...

      There are alot of really simple to use platforms available today, not just for people who can code, or who know SEO...

      Facebook makes testing ads cheaper than ever for example, youtube can bring you of traffic for free, without even knowing much seo, or even how to use PPC advertising...

      Sites like FB give you choices of demographics that you can select with the click of a button, and market directly to that demographic, without you having to be super precise in your keyword research , or cross your fingers hoping that you are drawing the right traffic...

      Use to be that even paying for clicks wouldnt work for you, unless you had specialized knowledge and a ton of understanding about keywords, and how people search... Even PAYING for clicks was no guarantee of good traffic, unless you had alot of understanding/experience with what you were doing.

      Today, there are easier ways to try things with less risk, that people with less experience can implement

      As far as things to sell....

      You have PPL, and CPA becoming more common , so, its easier than ever to make an income never even asking for a credit card, or asking for "money"...

      Its just becoming a different climate, and while telemarketing works, there are better ways.... You know this yourself from having a room that calls on warm, internet generated leads.

      Hope that explains.

      I have no horse in this race... just recognizing that what I taught ten years ago, isnt as optimal of an approach in 2020.

      I do this because I have seen people asking about my posts from years ago, about techniques that arent as effective today as they were then. So I feel I need to address some of that.

      For instance, when I started using alibaba it was free..., and ANYONE could get in the game...nowadays it costs several thousand dollars to get in the game. So , things change over time...

      Principles endure but techniques become out dated.

      One change is that;

      Attraction marketing is becoming more attainable and reachable for a newbie these days, then it was in years past.

      That doesnt mean cold calling doesnt work, obviously.

      JD

      Ps. I agree that simplicity and consistency can make anything work... and that is always the way it works best for me.

      "K.I.S.S."
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      • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
        Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

        "Average" in my example, is a person who does not have alot of experience in marketing or sales, or any kind of super talent for it. You certainly are not average Ken, so asking people for money is not surprisingly, easy for you...

        However, since the beginning of marketing "asking for money", or (closing), has been thge most difficult part for most people.

        As I stated in my previous post: Telemarketing will never NOT work... but we do exist in an environment today whereby attraction marketing and calling on warm leads....lets say generated from an authority book on amazon, for example, are much easier to generate for an average person, than they used to be.

        A person does not even have to know how to design a website anymore, or to even HAVE one, in order to market or advertise.... and there is so much good "copy and paste" ad copy out there, that they can access, which is already proven to work ...

        There are alot of really simple to use platforms available today, not just for people who can code, or who know SEO...

        Facebook makes testing ads cheaper than ever for example, youtube can bring you of traffic for free, without even knowing much seo, or even how to use PPC advertising...

        They give you choices of demographics that you can select with the click of a button, and market directly to that demographic, without you having to be super precise in your keyword research , or cross your fingers hoping that you are drawing the right traffic...

        Use to be that even paying for clicks wouldnt work for you, unless you had specialized knowledge and a ton of understanding about keywords, and how people search... Even PAYING for clicks was no guarantee of good traffic, unless you had alot of understanding/experience with what you were doing.

        Today, there are easier ways to try things with less risk, that people with less experience can implement

        As far as things to sell....

        You have PPL, and CPA becoming more common , so, its easier than ever to make an income never even asking for a credit card, or asking for "money"...

        Its just becoming a different climate, and while telemarketing works, there are better ways.... You know this yourself from having a room that calls on warm, internet generated leads.

        Hope that explains.

        I have no horse in this race... just recognizing that what I taught ten years ago, isnt as optimal of an approach in 2020.

        Attraction marketing is becoming more attainable and reachable for a newbie these days, then it was in years past.

        That doesnt mean cold calling doesnt work, obviously.

        JD
        All of that was here 10 years ago John.

        That's what everyone was telling you then.
        Including myself in some of our late night talks.
        -Which I miss.

        I don't care what anyone does. We each grow at our own pace
        and the smart ones often outgrow what we think is the only way.

        Despite what you may think about my post, I think yours shows growth.
        Congratulations.

        And just to clarify.

        I got where I am because of sales.

        First I sold me, then I sold what I made, then I sold my knowledge
        and then I sold the companies I built.

        Do you remember phase two of the master plan?
        That's happening right now...I think where three years in.
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        • Profile picture of the author John Durham
          Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

          All of that was here 10 years ago John.

          That's what everyone was telling you then.
          Including myself in some of our late night talks.
          -Which I miss.

          Do you remember phase two of the master plan?
          That's happening right now...I think where three years in.
          Perhaps I am just now becoming more aware...

          No I dont remember phase two Ken.... but would be excited to be refreshed. Your way is definitely brilliant from what I DID retain.

          What I think of your post? I always enjoy them and consider your words objectively.

          Will hit you up sometimes soon. Please pm, a way to IM with you.

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          • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
            Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

            Perhaps I am just now becoming more aware...

            No I dont remember phase two Ken.... but would be excited to be refreshed. Your way is definitely brilliant from what I DID retain.

            What I think of your post? I always enjoy them and consider your words objectively.

            Will hit you up sometimes soon. Please pm, a way to IM with you.

            All of my personal contact info is the same as it's been for the last 25 + years.

            Meaning, you could have reached out anytime you wanted to.

            Are you considering those words? I wish you could hear the tone I'm imagining in my head as I type.

            Ten years is a long time to ghost someone that you repetitively called brother.

            I still consider you a friend, but your a f'n dick bro.

            I shoot you some contact info later, but just to let ya know, if you plan on talking to me,
            I hope you plan on taking some time to explain wtf happened.
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            Selling Ain't for Sissies
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        • Profile picture of the author natostanco
          Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

          All of that was here 10 years ago John.

          I don't care what anyone does. We each grow at our own pace
          and the smart ones often outgrow what we think is the only way.
          .
          Yes sir! I really like this and I truly believe it aswell.
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      • Profile picture of the author samaragra
        Ys is is good for every one

        more details : www.dselva.co.in
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Well Ken.... I guess I have the public scolding coming to me, and I apologise for not being a good friend, I hope I can explain.... and that you will understand.

    Since the scolding was public, I suppose I should answer the same way, so as not to leave it to others imagined scenarios... although this is not ideal....

    I have been lost Ken, in a very bad way. .. after suffering some trauma years back.... something got ahold of me.... something that I had never considered as a possibility before and could never have imagined would ever get me..... that something was alcoholism.

    Prior to eight years ago I could keep an unopened bottle of wine for literally years and never even touch it.... but somehow I started drinking , and I started doing it very hard within weeks of starting.... and harder.... until in recent years it has been up to a half gallon of vodka or more PER DAY! Unimageable....

    I recently gained the strength to enter myself into a very nice rehab, where i stayed for over a month. .. i am going to several different therapists now, on the outside, and working hard to get my life back, and have alot of amends to make.

    I became estranged to everything and everyone in my life for years...even most of my intermittent posts in recent years were done in a blackout drunk.... it is not pretty, but it's the truth. It is not fun to admit, but you called me out and I dont resent that. I will not resent sharing this either... it just is what it is.

    I have alot of amends to make.... and again, I am sorry for not being a present friend.... however, my esteem for you has never waned. I have just been in darkness for waaaaay too long. I cant even believe it myself that I missed a almost a decade surrendering my power to such a shame, and not excusable.... but all I can do is move forward now.

    I hope this explains., at least a little. Obviously there are more complexities that accompany all of this.

    I have never been anything less than real on the WF, and that much will never change it appears... good bad or ugly. You may get those....but you will never get FAKE.
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    • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      it is not pretty, but it's the truth.

      As always, that works for me.

      I posted what I did because I stood up for you publicly and privately and then spent at least the next two years explaining that you were only a friend and not a business partner when people asked about jving. The first question was always about you.

      And I posted what I did because, quite frankly I'm annoyed you ghosted me.

      Don't worry, I'm good now, I'll save the rest for when we can talk.

      -
      Addiction is a beast, it runs rampant in my family tree. I have witnessed the devastating consequences. Good luck with that.
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      Selling Ain't for Sissies
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    • Profile picture of the author James London
      Right, it will always have its time and place where it works the strongest. There are still old marketing methods that work great when trying to achieve certain goals. A custom-tailored world to say the least.
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      • Does cold calling still work? I suppose.

        But cold calling people, or small businesses out of the blue with no reason for them to talk to you (from their point of view) is a hard hard road.

        The last 20 years or so that I was still selling in the field, I made cold calls, meaning they weren't expecting my call...

        But I made these calls to people that I call Highly Likely Buyers.

        To me, there are two groups of people you want to call....Highly Likely Prospects, and Highly Likely Buyers.

        The Highly Likely Prospects are the people that will almost certainly talk to you, and see you...if you make in person presentations (or consultations).

        Who are they? People that have talked to salespeople before, in the way you approach them. If you sell over the phone, it's people that talk to salespeople (and usually anyone else) over the phone. Political survey respondents, lists of inquirers about offers in your field...They are used to taking calls like yours. But the people (even business owners) that will talk to anyone are sometimes the least qualified.

        When I was selling vacuum cleaners in people's homes, it was anyone that would let a previous salesperson in their home.

        And they aren't necessarily buyers.

        Me? I want to talk to the buyers. People who are used to buying what you sell, or buying the way you sell, or buying in a similar field as yours.

        You sell online marketing services? See the people with the big print ads, the premium ads in online directories, See people who are used to buying things similar to what you sell.

        The last couple of decades I was selling, I spent nearly all my time talking to past customers (repeat sales), the referrals they gave me (I only got referrals from my buyers), and the occasional person that I met casually.


        The big benefits of getting referrals, and having the customer call them?

        The referral always took my call
        They always agreed to see me.
        They nearly always bought from me.

        It worked like this, whether I was selling to consumers in their home, or talking to business owners at their office.

        Who were my Highly Likely Buyers?

        When I was selling in people's homes, it was anyone who had previously bought an expensive thing (it didn't matter what it was) from an in home salesperson before.

        But because they bought before, in the same way that I sold, it also meant that they were highly likely to talk to me in the first place. And if they were a referral from someone who bought from me, they were almost certainly going to buy from me.

        When I was selling local online marketing services, my Highly Likely Buyers was someone who already spent at least a couple of thousand dollars a month in local advertising. It didn't matter what media.

        Why? Because they had proven that they would talk to ad reps (and to them, online marketing is advertising), so they were also Highly Likely Prospects.

        And if they were a referral from another business owner that had bought from me, again, they were almost certain sales.

        When selling vacuum cleaners, when I got a list of buyers (that bought the way I sold) I would offer them a good gift to see my product. In one instance, it was a portable TV. Why? Because I knew that if they took a look at what I had, I had about an 80-90% chance of them buying. My cost per sale for gifts was about $100. My profit on a sale was about $1,000.

        The problem came when they gave me referrals (after they bought). It was hard to not give the same gift to the referral. It was still worth it, but these were only likely to buy because they were a referral, not based on previous buying decisions.

        It took me awhile to figure this out, but gifts weren't really needed. I could make the appointment by just offering a free inspection or service call (on what they already had).

        I learned to sell the meeting as a benefit all its own.

        Anyway, I wouldn't cold call an unqualified, random list of small business owners, unless you had a really good reason for them to see you.

        I hope this helps someone.
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        • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

          Does cold calling still work? I suppose.

          But cold calling people, or small businesses out of the blue with no reason for them to talk to you (from their point of view) is a hard hard road.

          The last 20 years or so that I was still selling in the field, I made cold calls, meaning they weren't expecting my call...

          But I made these calls to people that I call Highly Likely Buyers.

          To me, there are two groups of people you want to call....Highly Likely Prospects, and Highly Likely Buyers.

          The Highly Likely Prospects are the people that will almost certainly talk to you, and see you...if you make in person presentations (or consultations).

          Who are they? People that have talked to salespeople before, in the way you approach them. If you sell over the phone, it's people that talk to salespeople (and usually anyone else) over the phone. Political survey respondents, lists of inquirers about offers in your field...They are used to taking calls like yours. But the people (even business owners) that will talk to anyone are sometimes the least qualified.

          When I was selling vacuum cleaners in people's homes, it was anyone that would let a previous salesperson in their home.

          And they aren't necessarily buyers.

          Me? I want to talk to the buyers. People who are used to buying what you sell, or buying the way you sell, or buying in a similar field as yours.

          You sell online marketing services? See the people with the big print ads, the premium ads in online directories, See people who are used to buying things similar to what you sell.

          The last couple of decades I was selling, I spent nearly all my time talking to past customers (repeat sales), the referrals they gave me (I only got referrals from my buyers), and the occasional person that I met casually.


          The big benefits of getting referrals, and having the customer call them?

          The referral always took my call
          They always agreed to see me.
          They nearly always bought from me.

          It worked like this, whether I was selling to consumers in their home, or talking to business owners at their office.

          Who were my Highly Likely Buyers?

          When I was selling in people's homes, it was anyone who had previously bought an expensive thing (it didn't matter what it was) from an in home salesperson before.

          But because they bought before, in the same way that I sold, it also meant that they were highly likely to talk to me in the first place. And if they were a referral from someone who bought from me, they were almost certainly going to buy from me.

          When I was selling local online marketing services, my Highly Likely Buyers was someone who already spent at least a couple of thousand dollars a month in local advertising. It didn't matter what media.

          Why? Because they had proven that they would talk to ad reps (and to them, online marketing is advertising), so they were also Highly Likely Prospects.

          And if they were a referral from another business owner that had bought from me, again, they were almost certain sales.

          When selling vacuum cleaners, when I got a list of buyers (that bought the way I sold) I would offer them a good gift to see my product. In one instance, it was a portable TV. Why? Because I knew that if they took a look at what I had, I had about an 80-90% chance of them buying. My cost per sale for gifts was about $100. My profit on a sale was about $1,000.

          The problem came when they gave me referrals (after they bought). It was hard to not give the same gift to the referral. It was still worth it, but these were only likely to buy because they were a referral, not based on previous buying decisions.

          It took me awhile to figure this out, but gifts weren't really needed. I could make the appointment by just offering a free inspection or service call (on what they already had).

          I learned to sell the meeting as a benefit all its own.

          Anyway, I wouldn't cold call an unqualified, random list of small business owners, unless you had a really good reason for them to see you.

          I hope this helps someone.
          Everyone interested in the power of FOCUSED prospecting should get your Kindle books. Incredible deal for the value of info inside...if they apply it.
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          • Profile picture of the author John Durham
            Ken , When I called you "bro", I meant it. Im sorry I got lost bro. Gimme a minute to absorb and come back. As a true pro, in real life, not just internet claims.... Gimme a minute and I will rejoin you brother.

            I dont really give a f***, what people think of this post. But we are Warriors and have been since the beginning.

            Thank you for forgiving my hard times.

            Still looking for that PM.
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      • Profile picture of the author John Durham
        Originally Posted by James London View Post

        Right, it will always have its time and place where it works the strongest. There are still old marketing methods that work great when trying to achieve certain goals. A custom-tailored world to say the least.
        It will always work, because marketing "Principles" dont change. Just tactics/methods.

        The basic principles behind writing a sales letter/ad on the internet, are still the same as they were for magazine and infomercial advertisers years ago... Old timers here knew all this stuff before there even WAS internet advertising...

        For instance; (Obviously)

        The concept of "Newsletters" has not changed... just the ability to create and deliver one is much faster, cheaper, and easier.

        That also goes for the process of building a list...

        Example:

        The late great J.F. Straw (God rest his soul), who I very humbly had the privilege of working with, had over 750,000 people on his newsletter list, and was making millions of dollars per year, waaay back in the 1970's , when "newsletters" actually arrived in your physical mailbox, in an envelope, with 4 or 5 pages stapled together inside.

        When the LEGENDARY J.F. Straw passed away, he was a Warrior Forum member and was still doing the same thing, only on the INTERNET!

        Same principles he'd mastered in the 1970's, but just transferred to a different medium.

        In Another Example:

        In the 80's and Early 90's many of us dreamed of making millions through tiny classified ads like "Don Lapre", who sold through infomercials, and thats how you got on HIS mailing list...

        There were also physical "SUCCESS" magazines available at grocery stores, where people could learn about making money, and buy business blueprints through Mail Order, as opposed to downloading them from an online WSO section like we have now.

        Things are sooo much better and less cumbersome now!

        What about MLM ?

        The structure of MLM is at least 2000 years old, and it is still effective based on the same principles that made it work 2000 years ago, because it isnt the medium that matters, it's the adherence to the principles.

        No matter what the medium, the elements of a good pitch and/or Marketing strategy never really change, only the tactics/methods.

        And they are all 1000's of years old.

        On telemarketing...

        As Claude eluded to (as I also did in the OP) , telemarketing may be a much harder road today, depending on how you position yourself.

        Combining it with the internet to create better leads is a much easier road, and , ultimately, having your whole sales system automated online is even BETTER.

        However;

        That being said; if I had to just rip some pages out of a phone book and start cold calling, with nothing but a phone, pen, and scratch pad... I guarantee I could still make sales So could anyone else who has the discipline to do it, and follow through with a classic old school approach.

        ...or new school.... either way, the universal, timeless principles are absolute and do not fail.

        Basically Magazines were the internet back in the day, and they operated in much the same way.

        I dont think I MISS those days much, honestly, even though they are wistfully remembered.

        Originally Posted by animal44 View Post

        I was whole long before I was wealthy.
        Didn't mean to imply otherwise. Obviously you had something going right with yourself, in order to have achieved all of that!

        I'm no hater man!

        Ps.

        Posting alot, but its a hell of alot more productive than drinking. Hopefully it does more good for people.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dave Earley
    Well that was unpleasant, and off topic. Let's get this thread back on track, shall we?

    I NEVER answer the phone if I am unfamiliar with the number. When phones first became available I quickly found out answering the phone would lead to uncomfortable situations where I was being asked to "buy" something or share my personal information in some way. Consequently, this may have led to a mindset where I can't even sell myself, or my own services well.

    I've been in positions where I've been asked to contact people I do not know in order to grow my business. Eventually, I will refuse, most likely because of the Golden Rule philosophy - I don't want someone doing it to me.

    What's the best way to get around (if possible) this type of mindset?
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    • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
      Originally Posted by Dave Earley View Post


      What's the best way to get around (if possible) this type of mindset?
      Believe in yourself and your product(s) and practice .

      If you have something that you truly believe in, then you're obligated to share it.
      It doesn't really matter how you get the message out.

      Email, phone, ppc, carrier pigeon, whatever. It ALL works when you have something legit.

      Do whatever works for you.

      More people are scared of personal communications than ever.

      I think a lot of it is, the seclusion lifestyle with the added layer of email / txt / social media.

      If it bothers you then practice doing it.

      When needed, it's a trump card.

      Also, lots of people make money without any type of personal communication.
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      • Profile picture of the author cheese1688
        Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

        Believe in yourself and your product(s) and practice .

        If you have something that you truly believe in, then you're obligated to share it.
        It doesn't really matter how you get the message out.

        Email, phone, ppc, carrier pigeon, whatever. It ALL works when you have something legit.

        Do whatever works for you.

        More people are scared of personal communications than ever.

        I think a lot of it is, the seclusion lifestyle with the added layer of email / txt / social media.

        If it bothers you then practice doing it.

        When needed, it's a trump card.

        Also, lots of people make money without any type of personal communication.
        I posted about this concept in another section of the forum. It's all about YOU. Which I've been told by some other great members here
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    • Profile picture of the author savidge4
      Originally Posted by Dave Earley View Post

      I've been in positions where I've been asked to contact people I do not know in order to grow my business. Eventually, I will refuse, most likely because of the Golden Rule philosophy - I don't want someone doing it to me.

      What's the best way to get around (if possible) this type of mindset?
      I find this to be interesting... The things I sell - in order to grow my business are products / service that will inevitably grow the companies business I am contacting. So in that ever slight way it no longer is a sales call as it is a requesting to partnership. Would you have an issue with calling someone "Cold" for a partnership?

      There are other maybe not so obvious aspect to this mind set - balance of Value comes to mind. Could it be that you do not consider the value you are offering clients to be equal to the amount of money you are asking? In a perfect world.. the Value of anything should be higher on the buyers end vs the sellers end no?

      So 2 examples.. I am going to call clients to sell websites to. I know damn well that selling them a website for $2500 is going to put money in my pocket, but in terms of what the client will get out of it.. its not much.

      So the flip side of this is selling a website that is optimized for local ( to include GMB ) Mobile responsive it at the least so the end user of the site can pull driving directions and push to call. SEO for local terms have been done. Add in some creatives for the client to share on Social Medias etc etc etc and charge $4000 knowing damn well that they are at the very least going to see the return of investment, and probably more than likely MORE.

      I would D R E A D calling scenario #1 this very easily fails under the "Golden Rule". But, #2 is a whole other Ball Game. I would WISH that I got calls like this.

      And what separates the 2 is the Balance of Value across the offer being made on both sides. I the provider gets paid, and the client / buyer gets a better than fighting chance of at the very least making back the return of investment. This becomes a win - win proposition and I personally have no issues calling anyone at anytime with offers such as this - because the "Golden Rule" has been kept in tact.
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      • Profile picture of the author John Durham
        Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

        I find this to be interesting... The things I sell - in order to grow my business are products / service that will inevitably grow the companies business I am contacting. So in that ever slight way it no longer is a sales call as it is a requesting to partnership. Would you have an issue with calling someone "Cold" for a partnership?

        There are other maybe not so obvious aspect to this mind set - balance of Value comes to mind. Could it be that you do not consider the value you are offering clients to be equal to the amount of money you are asking? In a perfect world.. the Value of anything should be higher on the buyers end vs the sellers end no?

        So 2 examples.. I am going to call clients to sell websites to. I know damn well that selling them a website for $2500 is going to put money in my pocket, but in terms of what the client will get out of it.. its not much.

        So the flip side of this is selling a website that is optimized for local ( to include GMB ) Mobile responsive it at the least so the end user of the site can pull driving directions and push to call. SEO for local terms have been done. Add in some creatives for the client to share on Social Medias etc etc etc and charge $4000 knowing damn well that they are at the very least going to see the return of investment, and probably more than likely MORE.

        I would D R E A D calling scenario #1 this very easily fails under the "Golden Rule". But, #2 is a whole other Ball Game. I would WISH that I got calls like this.

        And what separates the 2 is the Balance of Value across the offer being made on both sides. I the provider gets paid, and the client / buyer gets a better than fighting chance of at the very least making back the return of investment. This becomes a win - win proposition and I personally have no issues calling anyone at anytime with offers such as this - because the "Golden Rule" has been kept in tact.
        Love this post. Very appropriate way of presenting this.... Being inspired. Awesome perspective.
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      • Profile picture of the author Dave Earley
        Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post


        I would D R E A D calling scenario #1 this very easily fails under the "Golden Rule". But, #2 is a whole other Ball Game. I would WISH that I got calls like this.

        And what separates the 2 is the Balance of Value across the offer being made on both sides. I the provider gets paid, and the client / buyer gets a better than fighting chance of at the very least making back the return of investment. This becomes a win - win proposition and I personally have no issues calling anyone at anytime with offers such as this - because the "Golden Rule" has been kept in tact.
        I understand this completely, and it is an excellent point. I have heard a couple different variations of this, and I'll provide a bit more information on my background.

        I have a background in personal training. When I first got into the industry I simply assumed you became certified and started making money at a gym somewhere, or in business for yourself - This was completely untrue. Back then no one was saying "you have to be a salesman as well as a trainer", which is the case in many instances. Today certain educating bodies are more aware that this needs to be addressed, so it is a bit different for those entering the field.

        Anyway, I was horribly unprepared in this area. The training I could do. Making a connection with a client was also fairly easy to manage. However, the selling part was always a major problem. Many gyms NEED the income which comes from selling personal training and are supported by it.

        Now, I have no problem understanding the future impact of a regular exercise routine. We can't even fathom the years that could be "added" onto someones life, or the injuries which might be prevented, and so on. Every single workout matters. It all adds up. Understanding this is easy. Being able to convince other people that they should spend a lot of their hard earned money on it - not easy (for me).

        I have yet another personal example. I also do home remodeling. I became a tradesman after high school and learned a handful of useful skills. Consequently I can do most of my own home remodeling projects. Occasionally I will offer to do work for a neighbor. Without fail I almost always provide a cheap quote because I don't want to feel like I ripped someone off. My wife will then ask why I'm so hard on myself, and why I undervalue my own work. Really, I don't know. Could be my personality, part of my upbringing, or my perspective on the world.

        So there's my area of concern, guys - offline marketing of myself. If I were good at it, I'd of had my own business a long time ago.
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        • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
          Originally Posted by Dave Earley View Post

          I understand this completely, and it is an excellent point. I have heard a couple different variations of this, and I'll provide a bit more information on my background.

          I have a background in personal training. When I first got into the industry I simply assumed you became certified and started making money at a gym somewhere, or in business for yourself - This was completely untrue.Back then no one was saying "you have to be a salesman as well as a trainer", which is the case in many instances. Today certain educating bodies are more aware that this needs to be addressed, so it is a bit different for those entering the field.

          Anyway, I was horribly unprepared in this area. The training I could do. Making a connection with a client was also fairly easy to manage. However, the selling part was always a major problem. Many gyms NEED the income which comes from selling personal training and are supported by it.

          Now, I have no problem understanding the future impact of a regular exercise routine. We can't even fathom the years that could be "added" onto someones life, or the injuries which might be prevented, and so on. Every single workout matters. It all adds up. Understanding this is easy. Being able to convince other people that they should spend a lot of their hard earned money on it - not easy (for me).

          I have yet another personal example. I also do home remodeling. I became a tradesman after high school and learned a handful of useful skills. Consequently I can do most of my own home remodeling projects. Occasionally I will offer to do work for a neighbor. Without fail I almost always provide a cheap quote because I don't want to feel like I ripped someone off. My wife will then ask why I'm so hard on myself, and why I undervalue my own work. Really, I don't know. Could be my personality, part of my upbringing, or my perspective on the world.

          So there's my area of concern, guys - offline marketing of myself. If I were good at it, I'd of had my own business a long time ago.
          You're selling a product/service that requires ongoing education.
          Those are always the toughest nuts to crack when approaching things traditionally.
          By tough I mean, expensive and time-consuming.


          I was originally in the same boat and could not afford to educate.

          So I did what some would call sleazy. I figured out who my biggest competitor was
          that was already spending on educational advertising on tv, radio, and DM.

          I then spent months making phone calls and knocking on doors and harassing people
          until i was able to start buying portions of those lists.

          Then I rode their education coattails and undervalued my core service to make sure I undercut the competition.



          Nowadays... everyone wants to JV with someone.


          Find some people who are doing the education and then invest some time and energy figuring out how to make yourself look irresistible and how to make yourself an added value to them.


          Limited partnerships are everywhere and I haven't met a single person in real life who wasn't interested in some sort of mutually beneficial arrangement.

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        • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
          Originally Posted by Dave Earley View Post


          I have yet another personal example. I also do home remodeling. I became a tradesman after high school and learned a handful of useful skills. Consequently I can do most of my own home remodeling projects. Occasionally I will offer to do work for a neighbor. Without fail I almost always provide a cheap quote because I don't want to feel like I ripped someone off. My wife will then ask why I'm so hard on myself, and why I undervalue my own work. Really, I don't know. Could be my personality, part of my upbringing, or my perspective on the world.

          So there's my area of concern, guys - offline marketing of myself. If I were good at it, I'd of had my own business a long time ago.
          I don't know how you fix this issue but I do know the effort and time it takes to acquire those skills...because I have them too.

          Putting a value on your work without having some sort of tried and true mathematical formula...even if its as simple as saying "I will always know matter what charge 15% above my cost." is what Ive seen cause these types of personal issues in the past.

          I usually see that creep up with people who learn both business ropes AND the services on there own.

          I mean, school teaches micro, macro and fundamental business lessons that show and explain the where, what, and why's.

          Those who don't go the school route have to learn by trial and error.

          That will make anyone hesitant, because until they gain confidence they always wonder if they are doing it - charging them - properly.

          I think if you took some time and really figured out what one hour of YOUR time is actually worth, you will be surprised at the number. Maybe then you will be closer to getting where you should be.

          Earlier when I mentioned that you have to believe in yourself and your products, I meant it.
          If you don't believe in yourself, then you have to fix that first.
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          • Profile picture of the author John Durham
            Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

            Earlier when I mentioned that you have to believe in yourself and your products, I meant it.
            If you don't believe in yourself, then you have to fix that first.
            Just created a thread about this in the main forum.
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        • Profile picture of the author savidge4
          Originally Posted by Dave Earley View Post

          Without fail I almost always provide a cheap quote because I don't want to feel like I ripped someone off. My wife will then ask why I'm so hard on myself, and why I undervalue my own work. Really, I don't know. Could be my personality, part of my upbringing, or my perspective on the world.
          Im going to start here because ultimately this is the MOST important aspect of the whole thing. I am going to preface what I am about to say as being something you will not want to hear. I can say what I am about to say because me as a marketer... I have worked more than enough in the space of YOU IE Personal trainers, Personal Development, and health and well being. As hard as you find it difficult selling your services, I have found it hard selling my services to the likes of you. I have spent oh countless hours of my life learning to understand how to speak to the likes of YOU.

          YOU are wired exactly backwards to much of the world. WE live in a ME world. Look at Social Media today... I ate this My house looks like this, my car is this, I traveled here, I am hanging with this or that person... ME ME ME ME ME

          And with that here is the pill to swallow... you didn't start your journey of Health and Wellness for YOU. You started the path to prove to someone else. Your psychology is focused more on the value of gratitude of others than anything else. So NO, you do not have a understanding of your worth. And with this I can help here:

          When you are doing Construction... the Going rate where I live which is a hole is $15.00. That means you bring a belt, a hammer, A speed square, a Tape Measure, and 2 screwdrivers to work - and that is it. The owner of the company will supply anything and every thing else.

          The next level up would be subbing for the exact same company and because you have chop saws and tables saws and drills and anything and everything you might need to complete a task ( to include insurance and transportation , YOUR value is now $20. The flip side of this is The guy you are Subbing for is charging $40 for you to be on his job site.

          Now step out on your own... Business license, a Handyman's license, Liability Insurance, and a vehicle, and you value is now $60.00 an hour. This is not me just spewing numbers... this is national average stuff here. You are working on your neighbors house $60.00 an hour... because they are your neighbor.. $40.00 at the very least.

          So lets get into your professional life:

          Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

          You're selling a product/service that requires ongoing education. Those are always the toughest nuts to crack when approaching things traditionally. By tough I mean, expensive and time-consuming.
          THIS is a very true statement. However the answer is easier than many may think. Its probably not HOW you are advertising..it is WHO you are advertising to, and WHY.

          I can tell that your big WHY - Why you think you do what you do, and Why someone should hire you is Health and Wellness. and with that I am going to list some names:

          Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Gary Vaynerchuk, Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg, Hassan Jameel , Larry Page, Jim Walton, The Kardashians, J Lo, Pretty much any A lister in Hollywood.

          What do all of these names have in common? aside from being Million and Billionaires... They all work out on a regular basis. HEALTH equates to WEALTH.

          I have shared on this forum a number of times that something as simple as daily doing as many sit-ups and pushups for 60 seconds a day, can be life changing. And THIS being a marketing platform, it really has little to do with the physical aspect of doing this.. its the development of a pattern...

          With exercise, with consistency, and a bit of will power, and some patience, there are MEASURABLE results... Same for business... with consistency, and a bit of will power, and some patience, there are MEASURABLE results. Sure Health and wellness plays a part here, but the ability to translate the success of the number of sit-ups or pushups in 60 seconds can be directly related to success in what ever else you are doing in your life.

          YOU are sitting in some gym somewhere looking for someone that is overweight, out of shape, down and out - and you STRUGGLE to convince them to spend what $25 - 30 a session? and I have just pointed you to segment of the market that will be driven, understand the value of HEALTH, and are willing to pay $100 an hour.

          You could easily start your day at 4am in the Gym with a client an hour for 4 hours, take a couple hour break, and then follow up with 2 or 3 sessions in the later AM with the spouses of the same people you had early AM sessions with.

          It has NOTHING to do with what you are providing, but WHO you are providing it to, and the value THEY place on your services - This takes YOU out of the picture.

          Get yourself on LinkedIn start writing Health and Wellness content tailored to Health is Wealth and charge $100 an hour and see what happens. You wont have to contact them... they will contact you.

          So... Im not asking you to change... Im just suggesting taking YOU out of the thought process... Set a rate you are wildly uncomfortable with, back it up with written material to show your expertise and let your clients contact you to set appointments - no longer has anything to do with YOUR value, but turns it on them and THEIR value of the service you provide.

          Hope that Helps!
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          • Profile picture of the author Dave Earley
            Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post


            THIS is a very true statement. However the answer is easier than many may think. Its probably not HOW you are advertising..it is WHO you are advertising to, and WHY.

            I have shared on this forum a number of times that something as simple as daily doing as many sit-ups and pushups for 60 seconds a day, can be life changing. And THIS being a marketing platform, it really has little to do with the physical aspect of doing this.. its the development of a pattern...
            Yes, pattern development - a very good point. This is essential in probably all aspects of life. We use this most of the time without even knowing it. This can lead to someone being - more healthy, or less healthy, excellent at sports, the piano, or using certain parts of the brain, eating the same thing for breakfast everyday, or developing bad habits, etc.

            We're good at recognizing patterns, but doing so with our own routines can reveal ways to improve skills, build relationships, eliminate bad habits, and many other things.

            Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post


            So... Im not asking you to change... Im just suggesting taking YOU out of the thought process... Set a rate you are wildly uncomfortable with, back it up with written material to show your expertise and let your clients contact you to set appointments - no longer has anything to do with YOUR value, but turns it on them and THEIR value of the service you provide.

            Hope that Helps!
            Yes I believe it does. Thank you for the thought provoking and time consuming response. What if I took the last point a bit further and allowed the client to decide what the service is worth?
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            • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
              Originally Posted by Dave Earley View Post

              Yes, pattern development - a very good point. This is essential in probably all aspects of life. We use this most of the time without even knowing it. This can lead to someone being - more healthy, or less healthy, excellent at sports, the piano, or using certain parts of the brain, eating the same thing for breakfast everyday, or developing bad habits, etc.

              We're good at recognizing patterns, but doing so with our own routines can reveal ways to improve skills, build relationships, eliminate bad habits, and many other things.



              Yes I believe it does. Thank you for the thought provoking and time consuming response. What if I took the last point a bit further and allowed the client to decide what the service is worth?
              If you do that, then you're not in control and that's a terrible position to be in with clients.

              You have to stay in control, starting from the point of sale. If you don't things will eventually go side ways.
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            • Profile picture of the author savidge4
              Originally Posted by Dave Earley View Post

              Yes I believe it does. Thank you for the thought provoking and time consuming response. What if I took the last point a bit further and allowed the client to decide what the service is worth?
              I would suggest this is a step or 6 backwards... This places you in the same scenario that your wife asks why are you beating yourself up. I THINK you are worth $100 an hour. Just from this conversation that we have had here... your average block head trainer is not using terms like "Health and Wellness"... These are terms that indicate education. I can only imagine you are well versed and educated on Nutrition as well as physical development.

              The $100 an hour mark is mid upper in terms of your professions scale. There SHOULD be a time in your future you can go after $150 $200 an hour to provide the service that you do - IF you continue your education, ( be it in school or self imposed ) market, and target correctly.

              Do yourself a favor and look up "average cost of private trainer" on Google. In terms of education vs pay... Someone with an associates degree should be earning 100% of X, the search indicates 100% is eh $90 an hour. A BA degree and you should be at 125%. YOU are probably charging the equivalent of a High School educated trainer right now - why are you beating yourself up?

              I can only assume your ripped AF, Are new potential clients going to be mad you are charging $100 and try and beat you up? what exactly are you afraid of? Look at yourself in the mirror ( superficially ) what do you see? That physique took a whole lot of work and dedication and education - and that's before we get into the nutrition aspect of it all.

              So lets assume my scrawny 165 lb slim build @ss wanted to you know get "healthier" and I needed some guidance in doing so... what is your years of sacrifice worth for a guy like me just starting? YOU are Mastercard Bro - your priceless.

              YOU have EARNED the right to charge $100 an hour... and there is nobody but you holding yourself back.

              IF you continue to have issues with charging $100 an hour, it may be time to bring the wife in to manage you - do you get what I am saying? You do the training, and she is the voice and point of contact in hiring you to do so. Don't think she will have a problem charging $100 for an hour of your time - and trust me here, i'm not kidding

              If you were paying me to help you put your business in order ( and that is exactly what we are dealing with here, the business of you ) there would come a point that this would be more than a suggestion.

              The truth is its just paper... money has no value... It grows on trees... some are better at picking than others is all. don't be scared... you have an opportunity to pick more - If you cant do it for you.. then do it for your wife.
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              • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
                Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                IF you continue to have issues with charging $100 an hour, it may be time to bring the wife in to manage you - do you get what I am saying? You do the training, and she is the voice and point of contact in hiring you to do so. Don't think she will have a problem charging $100 for an hour of your time - and trust me here, i'm not kidding

                If you were paying me to help you put your business in order ( and that is exactly what we are dealing with here, the business of you ) there would come a point that this would be more than a suggestion.



                The critical paragraphs from my point of view ;-)

                Dave, you're getting in your own way...get out of your head.


                You are not your customer.


                It may take 1000 repetitions of that sentence for it to sink in.


                They do NOT see you, your service, anything about you the way you do.


                You walk into the room with all your subconscious nonsense (we all do)... you remember that embarrassing time in Grade Four and hope they don't find out... THEY see you as you are today and have like 2% of the information "about you" to make their decision upon.

                And they * will * pick up on your emotional discomfort and it'll suck the confidence right out of the situation, no matter how much they like you or wanted to buy.


                I really agree on getting your wife to step in and do the "money collecting" for you at this point. You need to get to a feeling of normalcy for making $100/hr, and that's the fastest road to it.


                "Oh, great! Glad you like the sets we've discussed and how I can lead you to the body and fitness level you like. Tell you what... I do the coaching and program development stuff, and my wife handles the office stuff. So let's go over and see her to get you signed up..."


                And you drop them off with her and fly away, above the petty issues like money. (I hope you hear my specific tone in this last sentence.)


                Your wife pleasantly tells them the program rate. This is what it is. This is normal. This is what people pay.


                (NOT "I'm not sure if anyone will ever pay this" -- and trust me, for fitness help, people definitely are. Go find Justin Devonshire on FB or LI and follow him.)



                Now the prospective client is left to fight out the "Is it worth it?" question with themselves... not with you sucking the air out of the situation.


                Get yourself out of the picture and out of your own head. It's not about you: it's about a client with a problem they're happy to pay to have you help them expertly solve.
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                • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                  Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

                  Get yourself out of the picture and out of your own head. It's not about you: it's about a client with a problem they're happy to pay to have you help them expertly solve.
                  An astoundingly insightful thought.

                  I think that's the core of all sales resistance and anxiety.

                  I was giving a speech about selling, and toward the end I said "And then it occurred to me the reason I struggled with rejection, fear, frustration.....and the answer was "It's not about me"..


                  And I agree with you. Take yourself out of the picture. If you do, you become bulletproof.
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              • Profile picture of the author Dave Earley
                Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                I would suggest this is a step or 6 backwards... This places you in the same scenario that your wife asks why are you beating yourself up.
                Well, I'm not currently offering my services now, so I wouldn't say that the idea is TOO many steps backwards. It's somewhat similar to the way taxes work - those who have more and are able, pay more. You make a ton of income? Great! You can afford $100 an hour to benefit your own health and wellness. You live paycheck to paycheck and can't afford to hire someone to improve your physical well being? I hear ya! Pay what you can, or actively send me referrals until you are earning more.

                I'm not saying it's a spectacular business strategy or anything. Just throwing the idea out there based on perceived value, and personal net worth.

                Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                I THINK you are worth $100 an hour. Just from this conversation that we have had here... your average block head trainer is not using terms like "Health and Wellness"... These are terms that indicate education. I can only imagine you are well versed and educated on Nutrition as well as physical development.

                The $100 an hour mark is mid upper in terms of your professions scale. There SHOULD be a time in your future you can go after $150 $200 an hour to provide the service that you do - IF you continue your education, ( be it in school or self imposed ) market, and target correctly.

                Do yourself a favor and look up "average cost of private trainer" on Google. In terms of education vs pay... Someone with an associates degree should be earning 100% of X, the search indicates 100% is eh $90 an hour. A BA degree and you should be at 125%. YOU are probably charging the equivalent of a High School educated trainer right now - why are you beating yourself up?

                Thanks. I actually went back and completed my undergrad after being in the trades 10 years. I've went through so many certifications thus far in the fitness industry, some people ask how many I have, to which I respond, "too many"! It's not really too many in my opinion. I enjoy the continuing ed and understand why they do it. It's more about preventing harm within the general public than allowing professionals to earn more.

                "Block head trainers" as you mentioned can be a risky investment because they may, or may not pay attention to things such as pre-existing conditions, potential injuries, muscle imbalances, proper form, or the reasons for choosing specific exercises.

                Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                I can only assume your ripped AF, Are new potential clients going to be mad you are charging $100 and try and beat you up? what exactly are you afraid of? Look at yourself in the mirror ( superficially ) what do you see? That physique took a whole lot of work and dedication and education - and that's before we get into the nutrition aspect of it all.

                So lets assume my scrawny 165 lb slim build @ss wanted to you know get "healthier" and I needed some guidance in doing so... what is your years of sacrifice worth for a guy like me just starting? YOU are Mastercard Bro - your priceless.

                YOU have EARNED the right to charge $100 an hour... and there is nobody but you holding yourself back.
                Thanks again. Perhaps I simply need to record people saying that and wake up to it everyday.

                I'm actually about six foot tall, and weight slightly less than you. Muscular in an athletic way, but definitely not buff! However, I can lift about 1 - 2 times my own bodyweight in several different exercises. I've always felt that being able to do 100 pushups in a row (or something similar) is much more "functional" (for the average person) than being able to move hundreds of pounds a few inches away from your body during a bench press.

                Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                The truth is its just paper... money has no value... It grows on trees... some are better at picking than others is all. don't be scared... you have an opportunity to pick more - If you cant do it for you.. then do it for your wife.
                For me personally, it's not about being anxious, worried, or lacking self confidence. It's more about not knowing how to present myself, what to say, and how to find the right people. There are a few people in the world who can have a simple conversation with someone and get that person to take immediate action. That's not me. I'm the kind of person who takes "no" for an answer.

                Also, my brain leans just a BIT toward the pessimistic side of things. You mentioned writing articles in a previous comment. I love writing. It's actually a great way to get all kinds of things out of my brain that would otherwise never come out in a typical conversation. My wife suggested the article thing years ago, but I tossed it aside because "everyone's already doing that", and "I couldn't possibly get anywhere by going that route". There's my brain beating itself up again. Is this not "normal" thinking? I'm beginning to think theres some underlying issue that should have been addressed with therapy years ago!

                Honestly, I have started blogging again recently. I created a site about hiking with my dog - not a spectacular niche I know, but I do enjoy it very much, and it does relate to fitness, of course. I came back to the WF to see how much things have changed in the past 10 years. I'm glad I did. Never expected to have this type of dialog and self introspection! Thanks for that.
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                • Profile picture of the author savidge4
                  Originally Posted by Dave Earley View Post

                  Well, I'm not currently offering my services now, so I wouldn't say that the idea is TOO many steps backwards. It's somewhat similar to the way taxes work - those who have more and are able, pay more. You make a ton of income? Great! You can afford $100 an hour to benefit your own health and wellness. You live paycheck to paycheck and can't afford to hire someone to improve your physical well being? I hear ya! Pay what you can, or actively send me referrals until you are earning more.

                  I'm not saying it's a spectacular business strategy or anything. Just throwing the idea out there based on perceived value, and personal net worth.
                  I am not going to say "Law of Attraction suggests" but there is truth in the idea... If you are unsure of the $100 per hour fee chances are better than good you will get clients that will not pay you that.. its just kinda how the world works.

                  Originally Posted by Dave Earley View Post

                  Thanks. I actually went back and completed my undergrad after being in the trades 10 years. I've went through so many certifications thus far in the fitness industry, some people ask how many I have, to which I respond, "too many"! It's not really too many in my opinion. I enjoy the continuing ed and understand why they do it. It's more about preventing harm within the general public than allowing professionals to earn more.
                  If you never have.. you need to sit down and write all of these out... your education as in undergraduate and all of the certs... might be a good exercise to put your knowledge into perspective.

                  Originally Posted by Dave Earley View Post

                  "Block head trainers" as you mentioned can be a risky investment because they may, or may not pay attention to things such as pre-existing conditions, potential injuries, muscle imbalances, proper form, or the reasons for choosing specific exercises.
                  And the best part of this post ( other than the kind words - thanks ) THIS is what I call a "Separator". The contrast of the "Block Head Trainor" and yourself becomes a way to separate yourself in the market place. a good read for you would be ( https://www.warriorforum.com/offline...out-water.html ) so something like "5 Questions to ask your personal trainer before you get started" would very quickly separate the block head clients from the ones that see the value in your education.

                  Originally Posted by Dave Earley View Post

                  I'm actually about six foot tall, and weight slightly less than you. Muscular in an athletic way, but definitely not buff! However, I can lift about 1 - 2 times my own bodyweight in several different exercises. I've always felt that being able to do 100 pushups in a row (or something similar) is much more "functional" (for the average person) than being able to move hundreds of pounds a few inches away from your body during a bench press.
                  Enter training philosophy... If you want to bulk to the size of a car Im not the trainer for you. You want to tone what you have, and increase strength, without increasing size - im the trainer for you. Again this is narrowing your target group... This alone weeds out a whole lot of people, and focusses more on people that will think the same way you do - allowing for a better relationship base to start with.

                  Originally Posted by Dave Earley View Post

                  For me personally, it's not about being anxious, worried, or lacking self confidence. It's more about not knowing how to present myself, what to say, and how to find the right people. There are a few people in the world who can have a simple conversation with someone and get that person to take immediate action. That's not me. I'm the kind of person who takes "no" for an answer.
                  and above I start pointing out WHO might be a fit for you... its actually OK to tell a potential client, I don't think this is a good match for me. Ever thought about doing a pre-workout consult? maybe meet for coffee or a smoothie or something and see if you will gel with the potential client. I mean you are going to see this person 2 - 3 - 5 times a week? you better both get along

                  Originally Posted by Dave Earley View Post

                  Also, my brain leans just a BIT toward the pessimistic side of things. You mentioned writing articles in a previous comment. I love writing. It's actually a great way to get all kinds of things out of my brain that would otherwise never come out in a typical conversation. My wife suggested the article thing years ago, but I tossed it aside because "everyone's already doing that", and "I couldn't possibly get anywhere by going that route". There's my brain beating itself up again. Is this not "normal" thinking? I'm beginning to think theres some underlying issue that should have been addressed with therapy years ago!
                  I am going to come out and say I love your wife! haha Maybe you just need to start listening to her, and whatever you do don't say "Yes Dear" to appease her. I would suggest your the type that really doesn't like conflict, and you maybe competitive... but not overly. In the world of "Advertising" and business I honest don't believe there is such thing as "Over Saturated" there is just to many knuckle heads still in business that shouldn't be.

                  Is it normal... YES, its normal - its your brain protecting you from success... when ever you hear this stuff... refer to the writing task I mention above.. write down your Degree, and all of the certifications. Its clearly YOU vs knuckle heads / Block Heads

                  Originally Posted by Dave Earley View Post

                  Honestly, I have started blogging again recently. I created a site about hiking with my dog - not a spectacular niche I know, but I do enjoy it very much, and it does relate to fitness, of course.
                  You say not a very spectacular niche, and I say it is the Niche of YOU. Alone time, thinking time, and walking at the same time so getting your steps in for the day. You could very easily keep this up, and start incorporating another section of the same blog to include "Trainer Stuff"

                  Like an about Me page that lists out all of your education and certifications. An article on different levels of trainers - Block heads vs well educated. Maybe some comments on your philosophies of Tone vs bulked out of your mind. Nutrition, and maybe include some photos.

                  Maybe even a contact me page that explains you like to meet a potential trainee, and to set up a consult drop me a message

                  All the while you are writing about walks with your dog - it makes you human and approachable... your content would send you ideal clients, because you have created boundaries of what it is you do and basically how you do it. It simply becomes a process of joining with like minded people that happen to have $100 an hour to pay you for your education and experience.

                  Originally Posted by Dave Earley View Post

                  I came back to the WF to see how much things have changed in the past 10 years. I'm glad I did. Never expected to have this type of dialog and self introspection! Thanks for that.
                  Kinda falling back on that whole Laws of attraction thing again, but SH happens for a reason - in this case, you needed to hear your wife was right! LOL

                  Best of luck to you man!
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                  • Profile picture of the author Dave Earley
                    Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                    A good read for you would be ( https://www.warriorforum.com/offline...out-water.html ) so something like "5 Questions to ask your personal trainer before you get started" would very quickly separate the block head clients from the ones that see the value in your education.
                    Wow, that's pretty cool. I like it. I can actually see myself building a client relationship with that material. I'm going to sit down this week and write something to that effect. Thanks for sharing that post.

                    Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                    I am going to come out and say I love your wife! haha Maybe you just need to start listening to her
                    Yes. I'm going to take the advice of a complete stranger, and listen to my wife. I'm going to turn off the pessimistic part of my brain (somehow) and ask for input.

                    Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                    Is it normal... YES, its normal - its your brain protecting you from success... when ever you hear this stuff... refer to the writing task I mention above.. write down your Degree, and all of the certifications. Its clearly YOU vs knuckle heads / Block Heads
                    ...already doing this one...

                    Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                    You say not a very spectacular niche, and I say it is the Niche of YOU. Alone time, thinking time, and walking at the same time so getting your steps in for the day. You could very easily keep this up, and start incorporating another section of the same blog to include "Trainer Stuff"

                    Like an about Me page that lists out all of your education and certifications. An article on different levels of trainers - Block heads vs well educated. Maybe some comments on your philosophies of Tone vs bulked out of your mind. Nutrition, and maybe include some photos.

                    Maybe even a contact me page that explains you like to meet a potential trainee, and to set up a consult drop me a message

                    All the while you are writing about walks with your dog - it makes you human and approachable... your content would send you ideal clients, because you have created boundaries of what it is you do and basically how you do it. It simply becomes a process of joining with like minded people that happen to have $100 an hour to pay you for your education and experience.
                    Well, I meant "hiking with dogs" is probably not spectacular to most people. To me it is.

                    Yes, I have actually included a few of these pages already and have listed some of my background and experience.

                    I have heard that Google is trying to improve the rankings of pages written by professionals, or those with credentials. Not sure how, or if this is exactly true. I've even created some short videos to see if people like them more than the article versions, so to speak. This is the youtube age after all. People watch hours of youtube everyday. I can't begin to explain how most of the videos receive so many views - "Toss a coin to your Witcher with lyrics" 6 million views, while my dog Abbey hikes in a gorgeous state park and is viewed only 7 times. Eh, I'm sure it'll even itself out...


                    Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                    Kinda falling back on that whole Laws of attraction thing again, but SH happens for a reason - in this case, you needed to hear your wife was right! LOL

                    Best of luck to you man!
                    I guess I did, and that is no joke!

                    All the best to you as well, and thanks for being my life coach lol.
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            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
              Originally Posted by Dave Earley View Post

              Yes I believe it does. Thank you for the thought provoking and time consuming response. What if I took the last point a bit further and allowed the client to decide what the service is worth?
              You're not the first person to think of that.

              The problem is, the client has no point of reference.

              What if you work a week (behind the scenes) and deliver a result that increases the client's wealth by $10,000?

              And you say "Pay me what you think is fair" and they give you $50? To them, this is fair, but only because they have no idea what a fair compensation really is.

              Part of your job is to build the value of your offer, and then show that the price you are charging is less than what they are paying now...without your help.

              When I used to sell vacuum cleaners in people's homes, I did an experiment. For a week, after I presented my product, I would ask them to guess the price...without any prompting from me. I was selling it for about $1,500.

              One guy said $25. A few said $300. One said $5,000. Why? They had no point of reference.

              And here is the trap...
              Once they give you a really low estimate of value, it sets in their mind...and now you have to argue against that. A losing proposition.

              Just give the price as though you are talking about the weather....in a tone that conveys that what you charge is normal, and people pay it every day. You have to expect them to buy. ....at your price. That's the only way they will.
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              • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post


                Just give the price as though you are talking about the weather....in a tone that conveys that what you charge is normal, and people pay it every day. You have to expect them to buy. ....at your price. That's the only way they will.
                That's always great advice for any sale.


                I think perhaps, in this case, he should try using the same tone
                he uses when he's teaching them.

                He already has "authority" based on appearance and title.

                IMHO - if you have the authority you might as well use it, so if you
                combine the "this is normal" with the already being used authority tone

                and you use savidge4's - "get customers who already know the benefit of
                your services"

                getting a fair to "you" price is probably going to get a lot easier.

                From there it becomes repetition to make you comfortable.

                Also, - Jasons advise of taking yourself out of the picture.
                That's so true you should consider that in all aspects of your business.
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                • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                  Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

                  That's always great advice for any sale.


                  I think perhaps, in this case, he should try using the same tone
                  he uses it when he's teaching them.

                  He already has "authority" based on appearance and title.

                  IMHO - if you have the authority you might as well use it, so if you
                  combine the "this is normal" with the already being used authority tone

                  and you use savages - "get customers who already know the benefit of
                  your services"

                  getting a fair to "you" price is probably going to get a lot easier.

                  From there it becomes repetition to make you comfortable.

                  Also, - Jasons advise of taking yourself out of the picture.
                  That's so true you should consider that in all aspects of your business.

                  I'm just taking this out of a webinar I've written to sell my sales course..


                  "When you are talking to a prospect that has proven by past behavior that they are highly likely to buy what you sell, When they are convinced that you are an authority in your field....When they are convinced that you are looking out for their best interests... When they feel your offer matches their needs perfectly...When they feel they have done enough due diligence ...They are convinced that the value is far more than the price.... And they see that buying from you is normal and expected..

                  They will buy from you. And everything above is in your control."
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                  • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
                    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                    I'm just taking this out of a webinar I've written to sell my sales course..


                    "When you are talking to a prospect that has proven by past behavior that they are highly likely to buy what you sell, When they are convinced that you are an authority in your field....When they are convinced that you are looking out for their best interests... When they feel your offer matches their needs perfectly...When they feel they have done enough due diligence ...They are convinced that the value is far more than the price.... And they see that buying from you is normal and expected..

                    They will buy from you. And everything above is in your control."

                    and if you ( the seller ) can bring the heat as promised, then THESE
                    are the perfect candidates for reoccurring and upsells.

                    It's amazing - once they're happy...they're hooked on you, for as long as you stay viable.
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      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
        Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post


        And what separates the 2 is the Balance of Value across the offer being made on both sides. I the provider gets paid, and the client / buyer gets a better than fighting chance of at the very least making back the return of investment. This becomes a win - win proposition and I personally have no issues calling anyone at anytime with offers such as this - because the "Golden Rule" has been kept in tact.
        I spoke several times to groups of advertising reps. And I'd tell them that the single most important skill they could learn is copywriting, to make their client's ads actually pay.

        I would tell them that if they concentrated on making a client's ads profitable (to the client) that they would never have a client leave them, and further sales would be automatic.

        But...Nope I've never met an ad rep that read a single book on how to advertise. It's a foreign language to them.
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        • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post


          But...Nope I've never met an ad rep that read a single book on how to advertise. It's a foreign language to them.
          Same here.
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    • Profile picture of the author John Durham
      Originally Posted by Dave Earley View Post

      Well that was unpleasant, and off topic. Let's get this thread back on track, shall we?
      It was important though, Dave. Thank you for you for indulging it, and thank you for getting us back on topic.

      Originally Posted by animal44 View Post


      I was whole long before I was wealthy.

      I just like driving fast powerful cars.

      I also love my 20 year old Mx5. Which is still my daily driver. Though I probably use the 720 as much.
      D
      I have $5,000.00 guitars, even though people wonder why it matters, and they dont get the thrill of playing on a pure ebony fretboard.... I have a collection of $80.00 picks... and people wonder why I dont just play 25 cent ones like everyone else, but they dont get the difference...

      Cars arent as much my thing, but I get it. If you are into a niche more than others, the novices dont get the differences that turn you on, because they have never experienced the difference..., OR they are still too novice to even recognize it.

      Im not condemning you at all Animal.... If I remember correctly, you were ordering my reports long ago, and we exchanged emails furiously, and you were frustrated.... Today, I am so proud of what you have accomplished.

      Please dont take it any other way.
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  • Profile picture of the author animal44
    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

    The problem is, the client has no point of reference.

    What if you work a week (behind the scenes) and deliver a result that increases the client's wealth by $10,000?

    And you say "Pay me what you think is fair" and they give you $50? To them, this is fair, but only because they have no idea what a fair compensation really is.
    So you build the value and maybe even suggest a price, then ask them to pay what they think it's worth.

    Wouldn't suggest this as a primary strategy however can be useful campaign to test pricing at quiet times.

    Originally Posted by Dave Earley View Post

    I've been in positions where I've been asked to contact people I do not know in order to grow my business. Eventually, I will refuse, most likely because of the Golden Rule philosophy - I don't want someone doing it to me.

    What's the best way to get around (if possible) this type of mindset?
    Find some other way to attract customers. If you do something against your own basic values, then you'll always be stressed and you'll never get very far.

    As John mentioned, there are gazillions of ways of getting your message out there, without cold calling.
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    • Originally Posted by animal44 View Post

      So you build the value and maybe even suggest a price, then ask them to pay what they think it's worth.

      Wouldn't suggest this as a primary strategy however can be useful campaign to test pricing at quiet times.
      No. And I have no idea how this is what you got from the part of my post that you quoted. I was showing the folly of such a tactic.
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      • Profile picture of the author animal44
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        I was showing the folly of such a tactic.
        Works for some...

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pay_what_you_want

        How about a few restaurants

        https://www.roadaffair.com/pay-what-...t-restaurants/

        Others:

        https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-33609867

        Worked well for my clients and I on many occasions... But then, I'm not a master salesman...
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        • Profile picture of the author savidge4
          Originally Posted by animal44 View Post

          Did you read this before you listed it? I believe every "Business" listed in this model has "Shuttered" or "Closed"

          Did you read the "Research" portion of the page... not very promising text to suggest this is a model to follow.

          Pretty much the only success to be found in this page is for "Non-Profit" organizations ( aka a bunch of free labor anyways ) and donation based models like shareware etc - nowhere did I see any amount of success is profitable business models.

          So, "Works for some" maybe a true statement, but "works for those that rely on the income" would NOT be a true statement.
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          • Profile picture of the author animal44
            Aww Savidge, you do read my posts. You're really a fan after all...
            It's alright to "come out".
            We won't laugh.
            At least not for long...

            Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

            "works for those that rely on the income" would NOT be a true statement.
            Well, I rely on the income, and, as already stated, it's worked for me (and my clients). I have three "more expensive than your home", stupidly fast cars to support, with at least one more coming in the spring.

            And, as I said previously, I "Wouldn't suggest this as a primary strategy..."
            However, with the right fan base and the right context, it can be very successful in many ways...

            Added: Ironic that someone who advocates giving your time away for free as a leadgen strategy can't see the value in a "pay what you think it's worth" strategy.
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            • Profile picture of the author savidge4
              Originally Posted by animal44 View Post

              Well, I rely on the income, and, as already stated, it's worked for me (and my clients). I have three "more expensive than your home", stupidly fast cars to support, with at least one more coming in the spring.
              I have 4 "more expensive than your home" pick-up trucks... and the ability to source a local JCB - your point?

              Originally Posted by animal44 View Post

              And, as I said previously, I "Wouldn't suggest this as a primary strategy..."
              However, with the right fan base and the right context, it can be very successful in many ways...
              being very broad with this statement I would suggest that this may be true when the context is left of center. the central idea that "All people should have access to..." seems to be the central theme behind the success of this. Business in general is generally right of center - just saying

              Originally Posted by animal44 View Post

              Added: Ironic that someone who advocates giving your time away for free as a leadgen strategy can't see the value in a "pay what you think it's worth" strategy.
              I like this one... amusing really... Creating value at an individual level in my opinion is next level stuff. Onboarding regardless of strategy comes at a cost... and spending 5 - 10 minutes with a potential client in an effort to onboard while creating value for the potential client, as well as the community at large... hmmm

              In terms of time spent, I honestly can not think of a faster method - including yours, where if you seriously sat down and broke down the time spent to reach out to 10 potential clients is going to far exceed my 1 hour - meaning your overall cost of onboarding is going to be greater than mine. And trust me I understand "Free" comes at a price for ME.

              There are actually a few more layers to this than has been shared. The social linking from being a business' first review... where your name is seen location after location after location... this falls in line with Gary Vees popular $1.80 strategy ( would like to mention this strategy was shared prior to him sharing the $1.80 strategy )

              The other aspect of this is the service I am providing for "Free" is something I would be including with my service to begin with - so it is NOT time wasted, and in the deals I close the time is actually calculated in the expense - so "technically" it isn't free

              And I appreciate you reading my posts - I knew you did, but its nice to hear from you.
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              • Profile picture of the author animal44
                Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                I have 4 "more expensive than your home" pick-up trucks...
                Really? 2014 CV was $44 million. Buy a lot of trucks with that...

                Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                your point?
                I'm not a charity. I'm in it to make a profit for my clients and myself...

                Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                being very broad with this statement I would suggest that this may be true when the context is left of center. the central idea that "All people should have access to..." seems to be the central theme behind the success of this. Business in general is generally right of center - just saying
                Might seem that way with the examples, however I assure you most of my client's customers could not be described as left of centre tree huggers. They're affluent, evil capitalists, on the whole.

                There was a study of PWYTIW by Harvard which classified people into two groups, "pro-social" and "pro-self", with "pro-social" on average paying more than "pro-self".

                However they also found that the "pro-self" group can be influenced by the seller to pay more and in some cases much more.

                Strikes me that Dave could make a limited offer to his ideal customers and get paid something rather than giving away freebies as is often recommended on this forum.

                Oh and my experience with giving away freebies was not a particularly happy one, even getting threatened with a law suit in one case...! Happily, it didn't go anywhere.
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                • Profile picture of the author savidge4
                  Originally Posted by animal44 View Post

                  Really? 2014 CV was $44 million. Buy a lot of trucks with that...
                  I live in a super modest 1800 sqf home that maybe is worth $150,000 - different strokes for different folks... I can say mine is paid for.

                  Originally Posted by animal44 View Post

                  I'm not a charity. I'm in it to make a profit for my clients and myself...
                  I get what you are saying... maybe its the life cycle thing or whatever - but I personally have no interest in building up personal "assets" I am a more of a invest / re-invest type of guy. and a 44 million dollar home is not on my list of priorities nor are fancy sports cars - a 6 digit excavator or 2 - just maybe

                  Originally Posted by animal44 View Post

                  Might seem that way with the examples, however I assure you most of my client's customers could not be described as left of centre tree huggers. They're affluent, evil capitalists, on the whole.
                  I wasn't / am not surprised by the model... if you go back and read the 1st post I left in response I simply asked if you read what it is you left.. because as a point of reference the link you left pretty much sucked.

                  Originally Posted by animal44 View Post

                  There was a study of PWYTIW by Harvard which classified people into two groups, "pro-social" and "pro-self", with "pro-social" on average paying more than "pro-self".

                  However they also found that the "pro-self" group can be influenced by the seller to pay more and in some cases much more.
                  Jump into links like ( https://www.slideshare.net/everthas/...line-romanesco ) and you may have better made your case


                  Originally Posted by animal44 View Post

                  Strikes me that Dave could make a limited offer to his ideal customers and get paid something rather than giving away freebies as is often recommended on this forum.
                  Sounds super great... not so sure if Dave understands who his "Ideal Customer" is or understands the value he brings to the table and who that may attract. and as a side note.. I never mentioned giving anything for free I said charge $100.00 an hour and I think with data backing it up provided enough data to indicate it is more a norm for his industry - something he could get his head around and maybe feel comfortable with.

                  Originally Posted by animal44 View Post

                  Oh and my experience with giving away freebies was not a particularly happy one, even getting threatened with a law suit in one case...! Happily, it didn't go anywhere.
                  That's right up there with I tried Facebook ads and spent $100 and didn't make any sales - Ill never do that again.
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                  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
                    Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                    I live in a super modest 1800 sqf home that maybe is worth $150,000 - different strokes for different folks... I can say mine is paid for.



                    I get what you are saying... maybe its the life cycle thing or whatever...

                    .
                    Funny how that seems to happen... I prefer condo living myself. You can get a fairly posh place for 150k with a clubhouse, pool, gym... and you never have to change a shutter, gutter, hire help... everything is handled.

                    The more things you have to take care of, the more things you have telling you what to do everyday....

                    I do not like worrying about my belongings, nor do I like a bunch of stuff that tells me what to do everyday... I like to wake up on any given day , and its my choice what I do.

                    I do believe some of it has to do with age.... the idea of driving a $500,000 car just doesnt turn me on so much these days. If I had 44 million dollars, I would invest it, never touch it, and make a million dollars per year off of it, passing that down to my generations.

                    Simple is so much more serene, millions or no millions, either way.

                    It's just a personal thing.

                    If having that car or home turns somebody on and motivates them succeed, and helps them to feel self actualized.... Then more power to them!

                    God knows that when I was younger, those were dreams for me too.

                    Some of these things may also help with "write offs".

                    Sometimes it makes sense for a ceo to drive a million dollar car, I guess .... or to go on lavish vacations constantly, in the name of business.
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                    • Profile picture of the author animal44
                      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

                      Funny how that seems to happen... I prefer condo living myself. You can get a fairly posh place for 150k with a clubhouse, pool, gym... and you never have to change a shutter, gutter, hire help... everything is handled.
                      The downside of that is you're giving total strangers free access to your bank account - via the service charge - with not a lot of accountability.

                      Our main home is an apartment here in UK and for some years now we've been engaged in a war against such people. We've decided we've had enough and we're in the process of selling (value £575,000). We'll never again own such a property. Looking for a detached home with some space around it...

                      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

                      The more things you have to take care of, the more things you have telling you what to do everyday....
                      We have a groundsman who looks after the property. He's responsible for maintenance.

                      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

                      If I had 44 million dollars, I would invest it, never touch it, and make a million dollars per year off of it, to live...
                      And what then... My wife and I each have an investment that pays us our pocket money £50 GBP per year. Enough for us. I could retire, but why would I? I love what I do. It's not just about money, property, cars... However no point in hanging on to money - can't take it with you - best spent of all those good things...

                      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

                      If having that car or home turns somebody on and motivates them succeed, and helps them to feel self actualized.... Then more power to them!
                      I was whole long before I was wealthy.

                      I just like driving fast powerful cars.

                      I also love my 20 year old Mx5. Which is still my daily driver. Though I probably use the 720 as much.

                      Anyway, back to the subject, cold calling belongs in the last century...!
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        • Profile picture of the author umc
          Originally Posted by animal44 View Post

          Works for some...

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pay_what_you_want

          How about a few restaurants

          https://www.roadaffair.com/pay-what-...t-restaurants/

          Others:

          https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-33609867

          Worked well for my clients and I on many occasions... But then, I'm not a master salesman...
          Funny you should mention PWYW pricing. I literally implemented it this month after being frustrated trying to get coaching clients in a particular community I work in. I have had people coming at me asking to get on my schedule since and guess what, most pay the full rate that I normally charge. Even people that I know are really struggling financially are making it happen. It's been fascinating this month. I even put ads out on Craigslist, taking my coaching outside of the niche I coach in, a site known for attracting people that want to pay as little as possible, and so far people have paid almost my entire full rate. It has truly been eye opening. I never expected this but figured I had little to lose and voila, it is working.
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          • Profile picture of the author animal44
            Originally Posted by umc View Post

            Funny you should mention PWYW pricing. I literally implemented it this month after being frustrated trying to get coaching clients in a particular community I work in. I have had people coming at me asking to get on my schedule since and guess what, most pay the full rate that I normally charge. Even people that I know are really struggling financially are making it happen. It's been fascinating this month. I even put ads out on Craigslist, taking my coaching outside of the niche I coach in, a site known for attracting people that want to pay as little as possible, and so far people have paid almost my entire full rate. It has truly been eye opening. I never expected this but figured I had little to lose and voila, it is working.
            Glad to hear I'm not the only one with superpowers...

            I see it like a good guarantee. You're taking the risk off your prospects. And that encourages them to buy.

            Will it work for everyone? No idea. I have read of failures, however, I've read of failures with just about anything marketing...
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            People say nothing is impossible, but I do nothing every day.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sebulba
    Glad to see you back, John.


    This thread makes me remember the old WF.


    Seb
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  • Profile picture of the author pramodtapu
    Cold calling is an important stage and technique in the selling process.Cold calling abilities are also useful in many aspects of business and work communications outside of sales activities and selling function.
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    • Profile picture of the author John Durham
      Originally Posted by pramodtapu View Post

      Cold calling is an important stage and technique in the selling process.Cold calling abilities are also useful in many aspects of business and work communications outside of sales activities and selling function.
      Good point.

      Beginning to question myself for writing the OP...

      I have been under the impression that the whole world was becoming soft and that no one could appreciate the discipline of this art form anymore...

      It is heartening to see that some still value the power of having cold calling "abilities", as you put it.

      I love thinking of it from that aspect.

      There is the aspect that it will get you business, and there is another aspect ; that it will increase your ability, understanding, make your mind stronger, give you stronger will, teach you to create a sense of motivation on good days or bad, and absolutely convince you that sales is an art that can be learned and mastered.

      There is a pride of ownership that comes with developing a telemarketing ability that no one can ever take away from you, and that will leave you with no excuse to be at the mercy of any other "boss", or anyone elses program... because you know you could make money with a roll of quarters and a phone booth.

      That being said; would I rather JV with a person that had a customer base of 500,000 people and make thousands of sales in one shot, with 4 hours work... Who wouldn't?

      I guess that needs no answer. I dont think anyone in their right mind would rather pound the phone over THAT.

      I am going to start referring to telemarketing as a "discipline", like the martial arts.

      Sure, there are quicker ways to fend off attackers than to master self defense, in hand to hand combat.... but if you take all the weapons away, the martial arts master is still the tougher man, and the better fighter.

      So in that human spirit aspect, yeah, Im still proud of being a telemarketer , and proud of anyone else who is.
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      • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
        Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

        Good point.

        Beginning to question myself for writing the OP...

        I have been under the impression that the whole world was becoming soft and that no one could appreciate the discipline of this art form anymore...

        It is heartening to see that some still value the power of having cold calling "abilities", as you put it.

        I love thinking of it from that aspect.

        There is the aspect that it will get you business, and there is another aspect ; that it will increase your ability, understanding, make your mind stronger, give you stronger will, teach you to create a sense of motivation on good days or bad, and absolutely convince you that sales is an art that can be learned and mastered.

        There is a pride of ownership that comes with developing a telemarketing ability that no one can ever take away from you, and that will leave you with no excuse to be at the mercy of any other "boss", or anyone elses program... because you know you could make money with a roll of quarters and a phone booth.

        That being said; would I rather JV with a person that had a customer base of 500,000 people and make thousands of sales in one shot, with 4 hours work... Who wouldn't?

        I guess that needs no answer. I dont think anyone in their right mind would rather pound the phone over THAT.

        I am going to start referring to telemarketing as a "disciplin", like the martial arts.

        Sure, there are quicker ways to fend off attackers than to master self defense, in hand to hand combat.... but if you take all the weapons away, the martial arts master is still the tougher man, and the better fighter.

        So in that human spirit aspect, yeah, Im still proud of being a telemarketer , and proud of anyone else who is.
        Cold calling teaches you sales and life lessons that you won't learn anywhere else...unless you spend bookoo years paying attention to the minutia.


        With that said, to build a business on cold calling alone is, has been and always will be stupid. Unless it's built as a well-oiled machine, in an area that can sustain a high employee burn rate ( ie ) not the boonies or your bedroom with an iron-clad script, team, multiple lead avenues, and merchant accounts.


        I have always said, cold calling is where to start if you have nothing but you need something and you need it now.


        I don't care if the "cold calling" is face to face or over the phone.


        Starting there when you have nothing makes sense to me because everyone has a phone and knows how to talk and if they have a product or service of any kind they just need to call enough people and eventually someone will buy...and now they have money and a metric.


        ANY person of average or less IQ can do this and know at the end of the day if they experienced success or failure.


        To me, that means there is a higher probability of enough continued motivation for success.


        With marketing and advertising, in general, it takes time to get feedback.


        With the internet, even though you can get instant feedback, you have to know what you're doing ahead of time...or you get nowhere and you don't even know why.


        anyone can say ... hi, do you want to buy my widget for fifty bucks?


        btw john, it's always been a pet peeve of mine when I hear people proclaiming that telemarketing is the cheapest way to get started.
        • I guess none of them ever paid a phone bill.
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        • Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

          I guess none of them ever paid a phone bill.
          Decades ago, i had a small team of maybe 8 people calling to set appointments for my reps.

          One month my phone bill was $5,000... This is back when long distance was expensive.

          My supplier (a far bigger distributor than I was) was talking with me, and I mentioned that my phone bill was so big. He said "Did you get the bill in an envelope?"

          I said "Sure"

          He said "We get our phone bill in a box". He had a large room of cold callers, setting appointments for dozens of reps.

          I look back on my decades of knocking on doors as a trial by fire...most people couldn't do it well enough to survive.

          But I'd never want to do it again. Soooooo much wasted time and motion.
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          • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            Decades ago, i had a small team of maybe 8 people calling to set appointments for my reps.

            One month my phone bill was $5,000... This is back when long distance was expensive.

            My supplier (a far bigger distributor than I was) was talking with me, and I mentioned that my phone bill was so big. He said "Did you get the bill in an envelope?"

            I said "Sure"

            He said "We get our phone bill in a box". He had a large room of cold callers, setting appointments for dozens of reps.

            I look back on my decades of knocking on doors as a trial by fire...most people couldn't do it well enough to survive.

            But I'd never want to do it again. Soooooo much wasted time and motion.
            That's no joke. I had predictive dialers...my boxes were supersized.

            I remember the first Bahama mamma bill I received. It took me forever to understand what I was looking at.

            The number was so large, my little pea brain had a hard time believing it was real.
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  • John Durham
    I still cold call occasionally. What I've noticed and have actually been told, some people prefer email, or Skype, or even text.

    Actually,
    I've noticed something very similar to what Claude has said about people's buying habits. (ie. people that buy a roof door to door might also buy a water softener, solar, fundraiser candy bars, etc They're comfortable buying things that way.)

    Some people like to talk on the phone, some in person, some through text, and some through IM like Skype,etc. I've left voicemails for people and never heard back, but they reply to my first email. "I don't listen to voicemails, if I don't recognize the number I ignore it." Those people do business mostly through email.

    So with more options, obviously closing deals through calls is less popular than past decades. But the people that prefer business that way, still buy and close deals that way.

    I personally prefer email, but still make calls sometimes too.
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    • Profile picture of the author John Durham
      Originally Posted by StevenTylerPjs View Post

      John Durham
      I still cold call occasionally. What I've noticed and have actually been told, some people prefer email, or Skype, or even text.

      Actually,
      I've noticed something very similar to what Claude has said about people's buying habits. (ie. people that buy a roof door to door might also buy a water softener, solar, fundraiser candy bars, etc They're comfortable buying things that way.)

      Some people like to talk on the phone, some in person, some through text, and some through IM like Skype,etc. I've left voicemails for people and never heard back, but they reply to my first email. "I don't listen to voicemails, if I don't recognize the number I ignore it." Those people do business mostly through email.

      So with more options, obviously closing deals through calls is less popular than past decades. But the people that prefer business that way, still buy and close deals that way.

      I personally prefer email, but still make calls sometimes too.

      Steven, people respond to all kinds of different things. We bring the talents that we have, and we get sales from people who respond to that thing that we do.

      There is never a lack of sales for any approach. The laws guarantee that. It's just a matter of how willing we are to take the appropriate actions that coincide with our approach. We WILL come across the people who vibe with that.

      It's probability, and THAT is an absolute law.

      Life is not about what you CAN do. Any street bum could become a car salesman, and make 100k per year. The laws of car sales are absolute. Its just about our willingness to adhere to them.

      So.... life is not about what you CAN do.... almost any program you buy on this forum will work in some way.

      Life is about what you "WILL" do.

      It's about the will.

      If you are willing to cold call, it will work. If you are willing to do whatever it takes to get a JV it will work. If you are willing to do whatever it takes to be an affiliate marketer it will work.... It's about your will, because ALL things are possible.

      So my question in life is not "What CAN I do to be prosperous"? The world is full of ideas.... and they all work.

      The real question is "What am I really WILLING to do"? What "WILL" I do.

      If I'm not willing to sell cars, thats ok.

      What will I love to do, and submit myself to it, WILLINGLY?

      Find that, and you can do ANYTHING.... Even become a guru on the most influential marketing site in the world, from NOTHING.

      -JD
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Ps. @ Claude.... We learned long ago that there are "Prospects", and there are "Suspects". We just share that knowledge in a different language now.

    Some people (not you) even share that ancient knowledge in terms that they made up, in order to sound like really great modern innovators !! lol.

    Hate that shit, but I suppose it all has its place.

    Your post was a great reminder. We should spend our best energy on the former.

    Thank you.
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