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I need your opinion on an analogy

by Claude Whitacre
54 replies
Imagine for a moment that you are a 25 year old single male. You enjoy comic books, chess, and playing pool. You are actively looking for a girlfriend.

A friend calls you up and says that he is going to a party where there will be about 100 single young women, is sure that several will be cute, funny, and interesting to talk to...and asks if you would like to go along with him.

A different friend calls you up and tells you that he is going to a party at the same time as the first friend. This party will only have a few people at it.....but there is a girl he has told all about you. She knows you are interested in pool, comic books, and chess. She is also interested in those things. She is also cute, has seen a picture of you, will be at the party, and says she looks foreword to meeting you.

Both parties are an equal distance to travel.

Which party do you go to?
#analogy #opinion
  • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

    Imagine for a moment that you are a 25 year old single male. You enjoy comic books, chess, and playing pool. You are actively looking for a girlfriend.

    A friend calls you up and says that he is going to a party where there will be about 100 single young women, is sure that several will be cute, funny, and interesting to talk to...and asks if you would like to go along with him.

    A different friend calls you up and tells you that he is going to a party at the same time as the first friend. This party will only have a few people at it.....but there is a girl he has told all about you. She knows you are interested in pool, comic books, and chess. She is also interested in those things. She is also cute, has seen a picture of you, will be at the party, and says she looks foreword to meeting you.

    Both parties are an equal distance to travel.

    Which party do you go to?
    Seems to be the shotgun vs the rifle, the many fish in the sea or the white whale.

    I go to the second one, and be myself, see if that is a good deal for both of us...the first is like going to a grocery store hungry, where everything looks appetizing. Eat first, then go shopping and get what you want. The second party has what may be looking for me, a 100 girls at party one are more of a Cyndi Lauper, girls just want to have fun.

    GordonJ
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by GordonJ View Post

      Seems to be the shotgun vs the rifle, the many fish in the sea or the white whale.
      Sort of. I want a few more honest answers before I bias the responses with explaining the reasons I asked.

      if it helps, genders can be reversed.

      And thanks guys for the responses, so far.
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      • Profile picture of the author DABK
        2nd party.

        100 women present is no guarantee I will find one of them attractive or one of them would. At the same time, there's too many, which one do you start with?

        2nd party, a lot of the work has been done, odds are good.

        Cold leads vs very warm lead.
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  • Profile picture of the author savidge4
    A very solid analogy... like solid solid. The only thing I would add to the smaller party with the girl that has same interests etc is there is a photo of her, and she is indeed cute.
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  • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
    A hot, 20-something babe who's into comic books, chess and pool, likes your photo and wants to meet you? Sometimes friends can be cruel.

    But youthful pranks aside, I think Gordon nailed it.
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  • Profile picture of the author RMRC
    The second party for sure. Someone who already knows a little bit about you, is looking forward to meeting you, has the same interests as you, and ontop of that is also cute, is a way better option than 100 women who may or may not care that you're there or what you're into.
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  • Profile picture of the author animal44
    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

    Imagine for a moment that you are a 25 year old single male. You enjoy comic books, chess, and playing pool. You are actively looking for a girlfriend.

    A friend calls you up and says that he is going to a party where there will be about 100 single young women, is sure that several will be cute, funny, and interesting to talk to...and asks if you would like to go along with him.

    A different friend calls you up and tells you that he is going to a party at the same time as the first friend. This party will only have a few people at it.....but there is a girl he has told all about you. She knows you are interested in pool, comic books, and chess. She is also interested in those things. She is also cute, has seen a picture of you, will be at the party, and says she looks foreword to meeting you.

    Both parties are an equal distance to travel.

    Which party do you go to?
    Ha! There's a reason you're a single 25 year old actively looking for a woman....

    So the real answer is... neither. You're off to Comic Con where you can safely talk to fellow nerds and there'll be no scary, hot, cute women to talk to...

    Just like MMO crowd - don't want to talk to hot prospects...
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  • Profile picture of the author DWolfe
    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

    . Both parties are an equal distance to travel.

    Which party do you go to?
    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

    Sort of. I want a few more honest answers before I bias the responses with explaining the reasons I asked.
    Since you want a few more answers even though Gordon hit the nail on the head. Here is something to take into consideration. What if the one party you can drive to very easily by car. While the other one needs a different form of transportation like a boat?

    If that does not play into it, your odds are in better favor of hitting it off at the second party. A few at the other party may like the same things. But that is an unknown at this point. So the second party would be the better choice.
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  • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
    Just to throw in a spanner...we're looking at this from the viewpoint of a 25-year-old with relatively little life experience and a single-minded ambition.

    From the vantage point of maturity, there's much to be said in favor of expanding your reach.

    A friend calls you up and says that he is going to a party where there will be about 100 single young women, is sure that several will be cute, funny, and interesting to talk to...and asks if you would like to go along with him.
    Several funny and interesting new contacts might open up whole new worlds and interests if you weren't simply fixated on finding a female (male) clone of yourself.
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  • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
    Friends;

    This is an analogy I was going to use in a speech or webinar. I was going to get hands raised with each option, make a quick explanation as to why I asked, and move on.

    The problem with asking other marketers on a forum is that they have time to think. They begin to wonder why the question was asked, and weigh the different factors involved.

    But I was going to ask the question, get a quick answer, and move on. No time for the deeper thought process we all seem to share.

    In this analogy, I was going to get an answer, and then point to the first option and say "This is cold calling"...then point to the second option and say "This is how referrals work".

    And go on to explain that in the first example, you would have to talk to 100 people to possibly find one that's a match. With the second example, the odds are great that you only have to talk to one person. Faster, easier, less stressful prospecting.


    I may put this question (with several others with a similar purpose) in a quiz and put it on Facebook. Then take the results and use them in my speech.

    By the way, I have another question. One in real life.

    On Youtube, sales training videos are everywhere. But the ones dealing with referrals get very few views, even my own. And yet, learning how to get and sell referrals created the single biggest leap in income I had in my selling career.

    Does anyone know why "referrals" seems to be such an uninteresting subject to salespeople? I have a theory, but I want to get your opinions.
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    • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
      Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

      Does anyone know why "referrals" seems to be such an uninteresting subject to salespeople? I have a theory, but I want to get your opinions.
      Maybe the term carries a whiff of desperation. Or maybe there's a loose, yet uncomfortable connotation with MLM where friends and family are brought into the sales process.

      To me, the word recommendation sounds more... wholesome.
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    • Profile picture of the author SARubin
      Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

      Does anyone know why "referrals" seems to be such an uninteresting subject to salespeople? I have a theory, but I want to get your opinions.
      Referrals is not romantic or exciting. Even the word "referrals" sounds like wearing a pair of sensible shoes. Sure, they're more comfortable and the more pragmatic choice, but they're also boring.

      Sorry, Claude, but even when I hear you talk about referrals my conscious mind says it's a great idea, and the better long term strategy for generating a lot of sales. But I'm older and more experienced than I used to be. The fact is, about 90% of my own work comes from repeat clients and referrals from current, or past, clients.

      But thinking back to when I was young, energetic, and full of ambition... well, that guy would be saying "meh, if one person gives me a referral who will the second person refer me to? Back to the first person?".

      Going back to your analogy...

      The second party will give me a high likely-hood of generating one sale, but the first party has the possibility of generating many sales. Even if I only get a 10% closing rate, 10 sales is still more than 1.

      And to my 25 year old self, that looks more like the fast-track to millions of dollars in sales. (or, with your analogy, the fast-track to getting laid 10 times instead of only once)

      The thing is, every product inherently has a unique and interesting personality. Often it's hidden beneath the surface. Your job, should you decide to accept it, is to find that unique and exciting personality, and show it to your audience.

      How is your system better than the old tried and true method of playing the numbers game?

      More importantly, how is your system going to help me join the top 10% of sales professionals, faster, and with less effort, than simply putting on my expensive (albeit less comfortable) pair of shoes and hitting that first party?



      That's just my first thought of the morning about the word "referrals". But it's only 6:00 am and I haven't had my second cup of coffee yet. (With any luck I'll have at least one more thought before the end of the day)
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      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
        Originally Posted by SARubin View Post

        Referrals is not romantic or exciting.
        I know. Your post is incredibly insightful (along with several others. You know who you are)


        i want a couple more opinions before I start engaging your very valid points.
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      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
        Originally Posted by SARubin View Post

        But thinking back to when I was young, energetic, and full of ambition... well, that guy would be saying "meh, if one person gives me a referral who will the second person refer me to? Back to the first person?".
        Sorry, but your post required some time for serious thought.

        Yup. Young salespeople (mostly 22 year old boys who think with their loins) want to hear about "Crushing it" and "Destroying my numbers" and "Beating the competition to death"...things I haven't thought of in decades. Loading the idea of "Referrals" with testosterone is my task, I think.



        Originally Posted by SARubin View Post

        Going back to your analogy...

        The second party will give me a high likely-hood of generating one sale, but the first party has the possibility of generating many sales. Even if I only get a 10% closing rate, 10 sales is still more than 1.

        And to my 25 year old self, that looks more like the fast-track to millions of dollars in sales. (or, with your analogy, the fast-track to getting laid 10 times instead of only once)
        My analogy should have a third choice;
        "You are also invited to a third party. This party has 10 single attractive girls between 20 and 25 years old. They all love comic books, pool, and chess. They have all been told about you. They all want to meet you. They have all seen you photo. And you'll get a group photo of them all before you leave for the party. When you get there, you can talk to anyone you like.

        Now choose your party to attend.



        Originally Posted by SARubin View Post

        The thing is, every product inherently has a unique and interesting personality. Often it's hidden beneath the surface. Your job, should you decide to accept it, is to find that unique and exciting personality, and show it to your audience.
        The one thing I have been grappling with. I suppose testing will be in order, or at least a really solid survey to my prospect base.




        Originally Posted by SARubin View Post

        How is your system better than the old tried and true method of playing the numbers game?

        More importantly, how is your system going to help me join the top 10% of sales professionals, faster, and with less effort, than simply putting on my expensive (albeit less comfortable) pair of shoes and hitting that first party?
        Selling that is what I know how to do. And much of the first third of the presentation is answering these questions;

        What problems do we have when prospecting?
        Imagine for a moment these results when prospecting...
        Different prospecting methods and their strengths and weaknesses.
        Why we don't ask for referrals. Why we don't get referrals.
        How the top 10% prospect.
        What results do they get?


        That was actually off the top of my head. It's all scripted out. My first 20-50 webinars will be live, so I can see the questions, objections, and at what points attendance drops.
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    • Profile picture of the author savidge4
      Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

      Does anyone know why "referrals" seems to be such an uninteresting subject to salespeople? I have a theory, but I want to get your opinions.
      I have like 2 posible options #1 is the built in stigma towards "Referrals" I can only imagine ( we are a bit on the older side here ) that we have gotten the call So and So gave me your number and said you might be interested in... And you are like why in the hell would they do that ( person give my name and number )

      I have found over the years there is a tendency for this in kind of 3 places. A car dealership, MLM, and in home sales ( no offense ) I KNOW it to be effective... BUT its ike asking whom do you know that you are willing to push under the bus? I have found that you are probably not getting the best qualified individuals that someone may know.

      Option #2 is simply "The Ask" In more cases than not, it was hard enough for a salesman to ASK for a price, and then to ASK for a referral? Probably to painful - and then leads to further discomfort of actually calling the referred.

      With the advent of the digital world there is something called a "Share" . So say i post something, and you and I are "friends" you might see that I posted something. You then find interest in what it is I have posted and then Share that to your timeline... You have in essence referred MY post to YOUR friends.

      There are 2 points of separation here... #1 there is NO ASK, and #2 the referral is done based on context to mood or humor or whatever.

      So the big question is then how to replicate the no guilt no ask Social Share?

      I suggest starting with a very SOLID business contact in your phone..as in fill in as much data in the fields provided. Business name, URL, Social contacts, Address etc etc. ASK to text your contact to the client or even potential client.. and then drop a simple "Hey if you know anyone that might be interested in my... by all means share my contact info with them.

      There is no pressure point... its not really an ask... there is no follow up... And I have found that in general over time you WILL get referrals using this method.

      I will say it helps to have a name that stands out in ones memory "Savidge" and "Whitacre" as examples. "Whitacre" is a double bonus because it is more than likely the LAST contact entry in most peoples phones

      These are my theories and I am sticking with them!
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      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
        Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

        I have like 2 posible options #1 is the built in stigma towards "Referrals" I can only imagine ( we are a bit on the older side here ) that we have gotten the call So and So gave me your number and said you might be interested in... And you are like why in the hell would they do that ( person give my name and number )

        I have found over the years there is a tendency for this in kind of 3 places. A car dealership, MLM, and in home sales ( no offense ) I KNOW it to be effective... BUT its ike asking whom do you know that you are willing to push under the bus? I have found that you are probably not getting the best qualified individuals that someone may know.

        Option #2 is simply "The Ask" In more cases than not, it was hard enough for a salesman to ASK for a price, and then to ASK for a referral? Probably to painful - and then leads to further discomfort of actually calling the referred.
        I get it.

        I suspect this is going to be the image I am going up against.

        Like you, I have gotten the call "Bob recommended I call you". And you are right about salespeople fearing the ASK for referrals, just like they fear asking for a sale.

        The fact is, I've never had a salesperson ask me for referrals intelligently, or had a call based on a referral that was handled well.

        Even the three best salespeople I ever met (When they sold to me)....not a one asked me for referrals, which I would have gladly given.


        Providing a proven system to get referrals that are highly likely to buy isn't the problem, I have that.

        Making it work in any industry isn't a problem, I have that.

        Making the whole process stressless for the rep and the client (stressless, not effortless) isn't my problem, I have that.

        Convincing webinar attendees (or live audiences) that this system will work for them isn't a problem, I have that.

        Making referral selling sound sexy in a headline is my problem. I may have to hide it until they are deep in the sales copy.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jeff Fairchild
    2nd party, because you could always find another party or bar later that has a bunch of people in it to meet.
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  • Profile picture of the author Princess Balestra
    K, so I gaht my 25yo pants on ... only this time there is way crayzee meat swingin' 'round in 'em so's I cain't walk straight.

    I would wish always to proffer no specyoolayschwaahn as a natchrly nootril person, but you bendin' my optshwaahns here!

    So can we mebbe reframe your offah fulla the squirtsiest, spunkiest guys evah?

    Thrustin' till the very las' molecules of Guaranteed Throb pulse an' romp an' loft in exultant parabolae from their ... *omc I jus' fell ovah*.

    So, hey, Friend 1, I gotta choose from outta a hundred confoimed deadbeats?

    Prolly 50 gaht weird teeth, 'nothah 25 desprit for anythin' but a vacuuum between thuh ears, mosta the rest totally lame an' frickin' useless, an' the one guy moderately stimyoolated by my observations on the history of 20th Century dance artistes gaht a dick even a small child could mistake for a bleached date.

    Thing is, next party (Friend 2) has prussaisly the guy for Moi.

    He seen a pickchah from my vacation where I chewin' on a kumquat.

    Sent it to his Mom an' she said *Dad figures she's ok. So ditch Brenda and we'll sort the huskies."

    K, so here's where we get down to the srs deets.

    Steada comic books, chess & playin' pool, ALL COMERS know for certs I cain't cook for shit, am yogically soopreme & gaht the joosiest nipples for a gal my height an' complexion if'n dangle 'em strategically.

    For sure, I could cavort way stoopid in a party fulla a hundred equally delish gals to secure my flapola a spot atop Cap'n Mahoganystiffopants ...

    But are we naht compelled always to be selective?

    Gotta figure the underlyin' narrative for referrals is ... be specific.

    Choose. Discern. Mebbe even work hard at math.

    "See, bcs I was lookin' for a cheery kinda kung fu expoit who could knock a horse unconscious from 80 paces, but nevah would bcs he generous for a psychopath ... feeds feral cats an' stuff ... an' I would nevah know where to get my hands on the guy in a crowded room less'n sumone I trusted said they call him Circumference Doom ... which is when I prolly follah my sense of natchrl gravity."


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  • Profile picture of the author Jamell
    I would take the second invite and meet with the girls whom I have a common interest with .
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    • Profile picture of the author DABK
      There is no direct link in referrals. I mean, with ads, I get one that works. Then I run 2 times more often and my revenue goes up significantly, even doubles. I control outcome.

      Same is not true with referrals. I cannot consistently ask 100 people for a referral and get a consistent increase in revenue that I can directly attribute to my asking efforts.

      Most people do not think, If I do referrals consistently for 5 years, my numbers will be hugely increased in year six.

      Part of it had to do with the delay between when you put in the effort to when you see results;

      Part of it has to do with tracking. It is harder to track and that falls on top of this: too many are bad at tracking, to begin with.

      And, in general, referrals implies you work socially (interact with people you want something from). Many are introverted, many feel that in referrals they are asking for something, which puts them in the inferior position (supplicants is good only in relation to God).
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      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
        Originally Posted by DABK View Post


        And, in general, referrals implies you work socially (interact with people you want something from). Many are introverted, many feel that in referrals they are asking for something, which puts them in the inferior position (supplicants is good only in relation to God).
        I get it. Except for your last paragraph, these are concerns I've only heard from marketers, never salespeople. The problem with a forum like this (in the offline section) is that it's populated by real marketers, who think nothing like salespeople.

        And it shows me I have a problem with perception.

        As for these thoughts....

        Originally Posted by DABK View Post

        There is no direct link in referrals. I mean, with ads, I get one that works. Then I run 2 times more often and my revenue goes up significantly, even doubles. I control outcome.

        Same is not true with referrals. I cannot consistently ask 100 people for a referral and get a consistent increase in revenue that I can directly attribute to my asking efforts.

        Most people do not think, If I do referrals consistently for 5 years, my numbers will be hugely increased in year six.

        Part of it had to do with the delay between when you put in the effort to when you see results;

        Part of it has to do with tracking. It is harder to track and that falls on top of this: too many are bad at tracking, to begin with.
        All of that does apply to the "referral" method of organically giving such a memorable experience that referrals occur naturally...without you ever asking for them. This method can only be depended on as a sole referral method in a very few industries.

        ....none of that is true if you got referrals the way I did for a couple of decades, or how I would teach referral selling.

        What I do hear consistently from salespeople is;
        1) Asking for referrals makes you look needy and desperate.
        2) Nobody wants to give referrals.
        3) Referrals are more trouble than they are worth.
        4) Referrals don't work in my industry/business/area/market.
        5) Asking for referrals is taking advantage of your relationship with the customer.

        A 2018 Hubspot survey of 30,000 reps and customers in over 3,000 different businesses gave them the following feedback.
        The top 10% of reps in income had two things in common;
        1) They were thought of as trusted advisors to their customers.
        2) They worked by referral.
        These are actually two parts of the same thing. Trusted advisors get referrals, and by intelligently getting referrals, you become seen as a trusted advisor.

        The vast majority of reps and business owners have never had even the most rudimentary training in how to sell by referrals. In fact, I've seen a couple of hundred different company prospecting training manuals (or scripts). Several have good (2 were great) cold calling scripts. But I've never seen anything close to a real workable referral system.

        My own system came about from 20 years of trial and error, working with about 200 different salespeople from 71 different industries in the field for a day or more each, and implementing workable pieces of their referral strategies and techniques. And of course, I just fell into some of this by accidently... asking the right questions, and getting the answers that gave me my initial success with referral selling.

        I can take a salesperson (in nearly any industry, with at least 6 months of real selling experience), and within 30 days (if they are smart) have them seeing referrals that are waiting for their call, and expecting to buy from them on the first call.

        The problem I have is one of initial perception of what referral selling actually is...
        And to be upfront, this methodology is complex, with many moving parts.

        Complex enough that I learned the hard way not to try to teach it to a new salesperson.

        I have been thinking that I may position my webinar as a training on the most profitable and stress free method to sales prospecting, and only after the webinar starts, mention that the process involves referrals.

        After I nearly finished creating my sales course, I decided to just read it all at once, to get a feel for how it would be perceived.
        All of it was important. All of it was needed. But it stuck out like a sore thumb.

        80-90% of the reason it all worked was because I was using this referral system I had created/discovered/cobbled together that was giving me only people that were agreeing to see me, were expecting to buy before I got there, were expecting to buy that day, and were expecting to give me referrals themselves.


        Half of the system is asking for referrals and how to position it all, and the other half is only seeing people who have proven that they are highly likely to buy from you...mostly based on their past buying activity. Those two things are welded together in my system.

        Maybe I'll position the training as High Probability Prospecting, finding people who have proven themselves as likely to buy from you... and then introduce referrals as the best way you find these prospects. And that would be the truth.

        I'll probably try it both ways with different groups of salespeople and see what it tells me.
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        • Profile picture of the author Princess Balestra
          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post


          And it shows me I have a problem with perception.
          Gonna say sumthin' genrl here rathah than spussifick.

          tbh anythin' showsya you gaht a prahblem with yuh perception means you ain't nevah dead by default.

          Bcs who FFS would want a prahblem with sumthin' they nevah knoo they gaht?

          Why ... such a circumstance might leadya down the path of all kindsa morons an' snakes!

          As a gal who been with a few 2-in-1 offahs of this kind, gotta tellya MOM WAS RIGHT.

          "Choose wisely and informatively from the best range of offers you have -- and if this means the happy-go-lucky skater boy over the zillion dollar banker, then of course, you must follow your heart, dear ... irrespective of plans I may put together as a consequence VERY QUICKLY in order to have him ULTIMATELY POISONED."

          *alternatively*

          "Choose wisely and informatively from the best range of offers you have -- and if this means the zillion dollar banker over the happy-go-lucky skater boy, then of course, you must follow your heart, dear ... irrespective of plans I may put together as a consequence VERY QUICKLY in order to have him ULTIMATELY RAVAGED."

          Fkrs knew this deal when they hit on Moi, they ain't showin', tellya.

          Gotta figure always there is the scenic an' adrenaline-pumpin' brilliance of molluscs.

          They jus' molluscs bcs they jus' molluscs -- an that is what molluscs do.

          Or ain't they had the actschwl thought yet, kinda ... "do we gotta go on bein' molluscs forevah? Cain't we wear hats or nuthin'? Or aspire to speak out all schwango like Kanye?"

          Factorin' in noo viewpoints means appealin' to plenny people gaht no clue where they gowin' othah than mollusc stuffs & yet here y'are fulla glory of horizon beamin' inya eyeballs like lazah zaps.

          Big prahblem we gaht is ... evryday perception is unremarkable.

          When it ain't, we refer to its nooness, difference, possibilities & change.

          That is why I so love the momentum behind the voib "to refer."

          Inherent here is a touchpoint of tangible obviousness from which we may leap juicily on.

          We gaze upon our (verifiable) reality in ordah to do what, zackly?

          Mollusc jus' stays stuck to immediate reference points.

          Kinda SCHLUP.

          Tellya, they moved on to the next rock, mebbe they involve into buttahflies or sumthin'.

          What are perpetually transmissible touchpoints anyways?

          An' I ask this as a query drained of all possible misdirected smoochie.

          Yeah bcs it is a Monday an ima behavin' musself.
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        • Profile picture of the author DABK
          It's true you have perceptions to fight.


          Most successful mortgage loan originator I know does, by himself, as much business as 6 average originators. All business he gets is via referrals... that he does not ask for.


          He is surrounded by average loan originators who could, in theory, copy what he does. Or, at least, ask him questions.


          They do not.



          Some, because they assume he's got some innate magical ability.


          Others, because, as one of them put it, they know he's going to tell them to kiss asses and they don't feel like kissing anybody's ass.


          The way he's doing it? He gets people loans even when others failed and he is really, really good at managing his clients' expectations without deflating them (getting a mortgage can be a long and stressful process).


          His system can be copied. But people do not.


          It is very common that people form an opinion about something, and no amount of facts is going to budge them. Or it takes a huge effort to get them to budge.


          It is best if you get to them sideways, like you said. Don't mention referrals right off the bat.


          Regarding this: these are concerns I've only heard from marketers, never salespeople.


          As regards hearing only marketers and not salespeople, I'll agree with you if you qualified your statement to say successful salespeople instead of salespeople.




          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

          I get it. Except for your last paragraph, these are concerns I've only heard from marketers, never salespeople. The problem with a forum like this (in the offline section) is that it's populated by real marketers, who think nothing like salespeople.

          And it shows me I have a problem with perception.

          As for these thoughts....


          All of that does apply to the "referral" method of organically giving such a memorable experience that referrals occur naturally...without you ever asking for them. This method can only be depended on as a sole referral method in a very few industries.

          ....none of that is true if you got referrals the way I did for a couple of decades, or how I would teach referral selling.

          What I do hear consistently from salespeople is;
          1) Asking for referrals makes you look needy and desperate.
          2) Nobody wants to give referrals.
          3) Referrals are more trouble than they are worth.
          4) Referrals don't work in my industry/business/area/market.
          5) Asking for referrals is taking advantage of your relationship with the customer.

          A 2018 Hubspot survey of 30,000 reps and customers in over 3,000 different businesses gave them the following feedback.
          The top 10% of reps in income had two things in common;
          1) They were thought of as trusted advisors to their customers.
          2) They worked by referral.
          These are actually two parts of the same thing. Trusted advisors get referrals, and by intelligently getting referrals, you become seen as a trusted advisor.

          The vast majority of reps and business owners have never had even the most rudimentary training in how to sell by referrals. In fact, I've seen a couple of hundred different company prospecting training manuals (or scripts). Several have good (2 were great) cold calling scripts. But I've never seen anything close to a real workable referral system.

          My own system came about from 20 years of trial and error, working with about 200 different salespeople from 71 different industries in the field for a day or more each, and implementing workable pieces of their referral strategies and techniques. And of course, I just fell into some of this by accidently... asking the right questions, and getting the answers that gave me my initial success with referral selling.

          I can take a salesperson (in nearly any industry, with at least 6 months of real selling experience), and within 30 days (if they are smart) have them seeing referrals that are waiting for their call, and expecting to buy from them on the first call.

          The problem I have is one of initial perception of what referral selling actually is...
          And to be upfront, this methodology is complex, with many moving parts.

          Complex enough that I learned the hard way not to try to teach it to a new salesperson.

          I have been thinking that I may position my webinar as a training on the most profitable and stress free method to sales prospecting, and only after the webinar starts, mention that the process involves referrals.

          After I nearly finished creating my sales course, I decided to just read it all at once, to get a feel for how it would be perceived.
          All of it was important. All of it was needed. But it stuck out like a sore thumb.

          80-90% of the reason it all worked was because I was using this referral system I had created/discovered/cobbled together that was giving me only people that were agreeing to see me, were expecting to buy before I got there, were expecting to buy that day, and were expecting to give me referrals themselves.


          Half of the system is asking for referrals and how to position it all, and the other half is only seeing people who have proven that they are highly likely to buy from you...mostly based on their past buying activity. Those two things are welded together in my system.

          Maybe I'll position the training as High Probability Prospecting, finding people who have proven themselves as likely to buy from you... and then introduce referrals as the best way you find these prospects. And that would be the truth.

          I'll probably try it both ways with different groups of salespeople and see what it tells me.
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          • Profile picture of the author animal44
            Sorry, off topic...

            Originally Posted by DABK View Post

            Most successful mortgage loan originator I know does, by himself, as much business as 6 average originators. All business he gets is via referrals... that he does not ask for.

            ....

            His system can be copied. But people do not.
            So,

            1. Why isn't he selling his system to others outside his area...?
            2. Why aren't you selling his system to others outside his area - on a percentage basis...?
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            • Profile picture of the author DABK
              Good questions.


              I do not know why he is not. He says lack of time, no fun, not interested.


              Why I do not do it? Let's call it clash of personalities and lack of interest (or, more precisely, I've got other, equal or better things to do).



              Originally Posted by animal44 View Post

              Sorry, off topic...



              So,

              1. Why isn't he selling his system to others outside his area...?
              2. Why aren't you selling his system to others outside his area - on a percentage basis...?
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          • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
            Originally Posted by DABK View Post

            Most successful mortgage loan originator I know does, by himself, as much business as 6 average originators. All business he gets is via referrals... that he does not ask for.
            I know what he does. It's known as being referable. It's the core basis that all great salespeople who sell by referral profit from. Sure he gets loans others can't, but the managing of expectations is a large part of it. It builds trust. He doesn't come out and ask for referrals, but I'm sure he plants the idea in their minds. This is one of the few industries that this (indirect referrals) idea not only works, but is the only kind of referrals needed.

            These are industries with a product/service that cannot be sold until it is needed. Loans, home inspectors, heart surgeons don't ask for referrals, because there is no need for what they offer until the need is urgent. So they are skilled (if at all) in building a network of clients and centers of influence (other professionals) who can point their friends his way, when the need arises.




            Originally Posted by DABK View Post

            Some, because they assume he's got some innate magical ability.
            To me it's weird. But salespeople (and all humans I suppose) would rather blame something vague for the reason the other guy is succeeding, and they are not. If they actually learned what he was doing, and they failed after copying it...then the blame is with them....and it's more comfortable to guess than to know the problem is ourselves.


            Originally Posted by DABK View Post

            Others, because, as one of them put it, they know he's going to tell them to kiss asses and they don't feel like kissing anybody's ass.
            That's what they tell themselves. "I'm too noble/virtuous/honest to do what he does. I may not make much money, but I sleep at night". It's a way of turning their mediocrity into a virtue. It's a defense.

            Great salespeople don't kiss asses. Great salespeople are respected and trusted. When a child is in pain, and the adult holds their hand, the adult isn't kissing the child's ass, they are being the stronger person. And your friend is holding the client's hand. There is no begging going on.

            Originally Posted by DABK View Post

            The way he's doing it? He gets people loans even when others failed and he is really, really good at managing his clients' expectations without deflating them (getting a mortgage can be a long and stressful process).
            Of course. Managing expectations is a way to reduce stress. Being forthright also builds trust, the currency of real success in selling.



            Originally Posted by DABK View Post

            His system can be copied. But people do not.
            Selling is similar to stand up comedy. You are really just relying on yourself. And that fact leaves salespeople vulnerable to damage to their self image. It's easier to imagine successful people as cheating/immoral/evil/privileged than trying to match their success and failing.


            And unfortunately, referrals is highly dependent on the client's perception of you.

            This reminds me of people who failed at selling because "I was too honest" or "I care too much about people to use them". These are all easier to believe than "I just don't have the talent, or the ambition".
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        • Profile picture of the author savidge4
          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

          I get it. Except for your last paragraph, these are concerns I've only heard from marketers, never salespeople. The problem with a forum like this (in the offline section) is that it's populated by real marketers, who think nothing like salespeople.

          And it shows me I have a problem with perception.

          As for these thoughts....


          All of that does apply to the "referral" method of organically giving such a memorable experience that referrals occur naturally...without you ever asking for them. This method can only be depended on as a sole referral method in a very few industries.

          ....none of that is true if you got referrals the way I did for a couple of decades, or how I would teach referral selling.

          What I do hear consistently from salespeople is;
          1) Asking for referrals makes you look needy and desperate.
          2) Nobody wants to give referrals.
          3) Referrals are more trouble than they are worth.
          4) Referrals don't work in my industry/business/area/market.
          5) Asking for referrals is taking advantage of your relationship with the customer.

          A 2018 Hubspot survey of 30,000 reps and customers in over 3,000 different businesses gave them the following feedback.
          The top 10% of reps in income had two things in common;
          1) They were thought of as trusted advisors to their customers.
          2) They worked by referral.
          These are actually two parts of the same thing. Trusted advisors get referrals, and by intelligently getting referrals, you become seen as a trusted advisor.

          The vast majority of reps and business owners have never had even the most rudimentary training in how to sell by referrals. In fact, I've seen a couple of hundred different company prospecting training manuals (or scripts). Several have good (2 were great) cold calling scripts. But I've never seen anything close to a real workable referral system.

          My own system came about from 20 years of trial and error, working with about 200 different salespeople from 71 different industries in the field for a day or more each, and implementing workable pieces of their referral strategies and techniques. And of course, I just fell into some of this by accidently... asking the right questions, and getting the answers that gave me my initial success with referral selling.

          I can take a salesperson (in nearly any industry, with at least 6 months of real selling experience), and within 30 days (if they are smart) have them seeing referrals that are waiting for their call, and expecting to buy from them on the first call.

          The problem I have is one of initial perception of what referral selling actually is...
          And to be upfront, this methodology is complex, with many moving parts.

          Complex enough that I learned the hard way not to try to teach it to a new salesperson.

          I have been thinking that I may position my webinar as a training on the most profitable and stress free method to sales prospecting, and only after the webinar starts, mention that the process involves referrals.

          After I nearly finished creating my sales course, I decided to just read it all at once, to get a feel for how it would be perceived.
          All of it was important. All of it was needed. But it stuck out like a sore thumb.

          80-90% of the reason it all worked was because I was using this referral system I had created/discovered/cobbled together that was giving me only people that were agreeing to see me, were expecting to buy before I got there, were expecting to buy that day, and were expecting to give me referrals themselves.


          Half of the system is asking for referrals and how to position it all, and the other half is only seeing people who have proven that they are highly likely to buy from you...mostly based on their past buying activity. Those two things are welded together in my system.

          Maybe I'll position the training as High Probability Prospecting, finding people who have proven themselves as likely to buy from you... and then introduce referrals as the best way you find these prospects. And that would be the truth.

          I'll probably try it both ways with different groups of salespeople and see what it tells me.
          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

          Making referral selling sound sexy in a headline is my problem. I may have to hide it until they are deep in the sales copy.
          The first post caught my attention...and then how do you make this look sexy?

          I "Generally Speaking" dont like selling...and yet it is what I do... I sell - and enjoy it. ( I hope this makes sense here in a minute. )

          I dont sell as much as I market. I have discussed my free tripwire I use ( in my terms ) as a method to A) build a relationship and B) become the coveted "Trusted Advisor". In short, produce free results prior to the ask for paid services. ( 90% of my service business sales are done this way ) Basically no selling involved... the action made the sale long before I made the ask.

          If it is the 10% that I actually SELL to or the 90% that by default fall into my lap, I make it a very clear action of asking if i can share my phone contact with them ( loaded with business name and number, my personal name and number.. socials website, etc ) and as I am doing this, I say "And if there is anyone you can think that may be looking for services I provide, by all means share my contact with them "

          I BELIEVE what maybe separates your system vs what i do, would be akin to outbound vs inbound marketing. I am very outbound in terms of just putting it out there with no direct expectations. Branding if you will. Vs the more direct inbound method - that is far more trackable / predictable. "Could I please have a list of names and number of people that you think might be interested" vs "hey if you can think of anyone have them give me a call"

          One is clearly a method of Sales and mine is more of a method of Marketing.

          The reasoning in my head for this... is the ASK for referrals as I have experienced over the years obviously isnt a hard question to ask... but the follow up has always been a bit awkward

          As a side note here...just a few weeks ago I had a car salesman call me and mentioned they were talking to so and so ( and I know they had just in the past few days bought a new car ) and they said you buy cars often. I responded yes I do - BUT, I am very brand loyal and I buy Ford.which was quickly followed up with "What could we do to have you come down and look at our cars - and my response ( which I found amusing ) was "You and the obvious mouse in your pocket ( he said WE ) would have to somehow figure out how to get brand new F250's on your Japanese car manufacturers lot - it didnt go well after that.

          I dont need this in my life right? I absolutely prefer out of the blue a call that says "I was talking to Sally, and she suggested giving you a call" Social Proof, expectations, pricing more than likely, Anything and everything you could want in terms of qualifying just called me - I can take as much of that in my life as there are minutes in the day.

          I think the answer somewhere somehow to your question; how to make it sexy? is to not call it "referral" and maybe reframe it into a more palatable "Outbound Marketing" as I believe your model would fit...OR "Inbound" if your model is anywhere near my method.

          So something like

          I time tested Inbound Marketing Technique that puts a prospect in front of you, VS putting you in front of the Prospect.

          Boy I hope that made sense!
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          • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
            Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

            "Could I please have a list of names and number of people that you think might be interested" vs "hey if you can think of anyone have them give me a call"
            You may enjoy this.

            My method, in a nutshell is this;
            There are essentially three different referral methods taught by gurus;
            1) "If you meet anyone who needs what I have, have them give me a call" (Not real language I would use)
            2) "Who do you know that I could see?" (Again, not my language)
            3) "Who do you know who has the same audience/customer base as I do?" (This one is where you do a sort of joint venture to sell to each other's list, in person or online. Or, as I did, simply get referrals that were in these groups)

            When I first discovered referrals, I used method #2 exclusively. I got a list of names and about half would see me, and half of them would buy. With cold calling, I was getting about 15% to agree to see me (I was pretty good), and a third would buy.

            One day, I incorporated #2 and #3. My experience then was that half would see me, and about 80% would buy. I've never seen anyone else use or teach this method of selecting referral leads.. It was a real game changer.

            Eventually, I improved my approach to the point that about 80% of the people I called would see me, and between 80 and 90% would buy. And my calendar was full.

            Until maybe 10 years ago, it never occurred to me to concentrate on being "referable". Up until then, I had seen about 5,000 sales by referral, and although I got plenty of referrals, I had only had one person ever call me up to buy. But this "Be referable" approach is what some industries use and teach as their sole referral method.

            Once I started building a habit of "being referable" with my buyers (approach #1), I also started getting calls from my customers, that resulted in their friends buying. And it made it a tad easier to get referrals in system #2.

            This is the best parts of three separate methods of referral selling, all combined into one.

            And the big shift in positioning is that it's never seen as "They are doing me a favor". It's always "They are doing their friend/peer a favor by sending me to deliver information and choices to their friend".

            It is never about the relationship between me and the client. It's all about the relationship between the client and the referral. I'm just the delivery boy.

            From about 1985 to 2015, this is essentially how I prospected, including when I was selling local online marketing services to business owners, and when I was getting booked to speak at trade shows.

            Anyway, of course there is much more to it.

            In my first post on this thread, I was testing an analogy to be used in my speech. I got great feedback, and now I know what holes to plug.

            My thought now is whether I should lead with referrals or lead with sales prospecting and reveal that the delivery method is referrals after I have their attention. I'm leaning toward the latter.
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            • Profile picture of the author savidge4
              Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

              My thought now is whether I should lead with referrals or lead with sales prospecting and reveal that the delivery method is referrals after I have their attention. I'm leaning toward the latter.
              I think we can agree that "Referral" is almost a dirty word - in regards to an approach to sales. Ironically it is how successful people consistently get Sales. Kind of like discussing financial principles applied to the 1% of the world... the principles applied to the top 10% of the sales world falls into the realm of unobtainable.

              Your a 1, 2, and 3 guy and I am a 1 guy... I think without it sounding like bragging ( but it does ) you and I probably fall in the 10% - we are not human, and because it has worked for us, it will never work for me ( me being someone watching this portion of your presentation )

              As many times as I have shared how I cold walk with Google maps... i dont think I have ever shared the second more lucrative technique of "Hey, here is my phone contact please share this with anyone you think could use my services )

              As much as I make 10 physical cold walks a week ( and close 80% over time) - I am getting 2x + weekly ( and dang near close all of them ) of so and so gave me your number, and I would bet more than 50% of those referrals come from someone that did not buy.

              I dont generally share these things, because the walk in method is just short of instant gratification... and the added step of the referral ASK - would send someone just starting, possibly over the top and out of control leading to failure.

              I think - that truth be told - most would skip the step anyways not understanding the whys and hows of that little ask, and just how powerful it is.

              I personally have struggled with #2 and #3 - and I contribute that to being so localized that someone that is a baker as an example, is not going to point me towards a local group of bakers - because they want my work exclusively to themselves. And then I find asking someone on the spot - do you know anyone? and I have always just gotten crappy leads from this..its like dear in the headlights or something... and the "Good" leads get referred to me later down the road.

              In the end... Referrals is a form of lead prospecting... so lead prospecting 1st..and then follow as a method of - and the most lucrative method of prospecting is referrals.
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              • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                As much as I make 10 physical cold walks a week ( and close 80% over time) - I am getting 2x + weekly ( and dang near close all of them ) of so and so gave me your number, and I would bet more than 50% of those referrals come from someone that did not buy.
                Well...I can tell you that system #1 referrals don't have to buy, and there is no advantage to not asking them for recommendations. The system #2 referrals are from clients/customers. And should only come from the people that bought, because that "People buy from you" message it sends carries a lot of the weight of the new sale.

                And system #3 referrals don't have to come from buyers either. in fact, most won't come from buyers, they come from peers.

                A key factor in the system #2 referrals is that the person who gave you the referrals will talk to them before you call. The story they tell carries a lot of weight. And if they didn't buy, it's never a great story. If they bought, they brag a little, tell their friend how smart they were for buying, and what a great guy you are. You want every referral to only know other people who bought from you. You want to create a web of buyers. These connections, and the peer/tribal pressure they exert does a lot of the heavy lifting for you.

                By the time you get to see them, they have heard several stories about you and your offer, from people they trust. By the time you get there, it feels to them like you're already on a third or fourth date...and that's one reason the sales are made in one call.


                Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                I think - that truth be told - most would skip the step anyways not understanding the whys and hows of that little ask, and just how powerful it is.
                Yup. That ask is the difference between getting referrals calling you and not.



                Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                And then I find asking someone on the spot - do you know anyone? and I have always just gotten crappy leads from this..its like dear in the headlights or something... and the "Good" leads get referred to me later down the road.
                For several years, I asked for referrals, and they were almost all crap. No more value than a cold name and address. The "ask" has to be done a certain way, and nobody does that. And the client has to have directions on who you want to see....people who fit your best prospect profile. I generally only got two or three referrals initially. If none of them bought, I didn't ask for more. if they all bought, I asked for more names (and rewarded for the first few referrals). If they hesitate at all to give me referrals, I let it go. Maybe half my customers gave me referrals, and maybe 25% gave me referrals repeatedly.

                Frankly, even most "Referral Gurus" teach a clumsy way to ask. One that feels awkward for us, the client, and the referrals. Guaranteed to get you to stop asking.



                Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                In the end... Referrals is a form of lead prospecting... so lead prospecting 1st..and then follow as a method of - and the most lucrative method of prospecting is referrals.
                Probably that's what I'll do. But I'll do a little testing first, just to make it more certain to me.

                Thank you for a spirited and helpful exchange. Several people here have been most helpful.


                Something you brought up. In my entire life, I've worked with hundreds of salespeople in the field. Some my own reps, and some from other organizations. Most were in the top 10% of their field. If they worked with me for a day in the field (and I worked with them for a day), they would ask me about closing...maybe how to answer objections...maybe financing.

                And even though most of the appointments I took them on were referrals from my buyers....I don't recall anyone ever asking me about how I sold by referrals. I mean the mechanics of the thing. The lower level salespeople assumed the sales were just easy...that I was lucky. The better salespeople thought it was my presenting and closing skills. The questions I had for them were mostly about how they prospected or marketed for leads.

                Weird, now that I think about it.
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  • Profile picture of the author PlatinumPen
    I think it's a fairly solid analogy.

    (Bare in mind I'm a man, not sure if a women will feel the same way)

    To make party 2 sound like an even better option, I'd add that the girl likes the way you look and that you've seen a photo of her and find her attractive.

    Best wishes,
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve The Copywriter
    Claude,

    Yes, the second party.

    But....

    With the sales analogy it gets a touch more difficult.


    Because...


    There's no absolute guarantee that a sales person can close a great referral.

    But even an average sales person can do a quick presentation to 100 warm prospects and stand an excellent chance of a sale.


    Having said that I would still go for the hot shot.

    Hopefully save time - and if the answer was no.

    Leg it to the 1st party on the hurry up!


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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by Steve The Copywriter View Post

      But even an average sales person can do a quick presentation to 100 warm prospects and stand an excellent chance of a sale.
      And that's a difference between selling and copywriting, the investment of time.

      You go to the party with 100 girls. But you want a "sale" that night. Are you going to try to get phone numbers from 100 girls? Would you even want to talk to 100 girls?

      This is my guess...remember the example #2 girl? What if she was at the party with the 100 girls, and was just among them?

      Have you ever met 100 random girls about your age? How many would you really be interested in? How many would be interested in you after they found out about your interests and personality?

      In my own personal experience, I'd eventually find one or two that were a good match, and one of them would be that girl from party #2. And she already wanted to meet me.

      But I had to spend time talking to 98 other girls before I found that one or two. Something I wouldn't enjoy, and neither would they.
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      • Profile picture of the author savidge4
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        And that's a difference between selling and copywriting, the investment of time.

        You go to the party with 100 girls. But you want a "sale" that night. Are you going to try to get phone numbers from 100 girls? Would you even want to talk to 100 girls?

        This is my guess...remember the example #2 girl? What if she was at the party with the 100 girls, and was just among them?

        Have you ever met 100 random girls about your age? How many would you really be interested in? How many would be interested in you after they found out about your interests and personality?

        In my own personal experience, I'd eventually find one or two that were a good match, and one of them would be that girl from party #2. And she already wanted to meet me.

        But I had to spend time talking to 98 other girls before I found that one or two. Something I wouldn't enjoy, and neither would they.
        I didnt answer the first time around as everyone else did..I said "A very Solid Analogy" The reason I went that route is because I KNEW I would be bucking the system and picking Party #1.

        #2 was low laying fruit... #1 on the other hand was a probable 3% close rate... with the potential for maybe 10% - and if you were that good, you might be able to swing 15 to 20%.

        $1 today sounds great... but stacking $1 for the next few days sounds better. - I would have invested the time as well
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

          I didnt answer the first time around as everyone else did..I said "A very Solid Analogy" The reason I went that route is because I KNEW I would be bucking the system and picking Party #1.

          #2 was low laying fruit... #1 on the other hand was a probable 3% close rate... with the potential for maybe 10% - and if you were that good, you might be able to swing 15 to 20%.

          $1 today sounds great... but stacking $1 for the next few days sounds better. - I would have invested the time as well
          My friend;

          The truth is, If I were talking to a group of marketers, then #1 is the more probable answer.
          The #2 answer is appealing to salesmen (sales people, if I make the genders flexible)


          The analogy is designed to get the #2 answer...maybe #3. Either would be useful in my presentation. But I may not use it at all in a webinar, The value is actually in everyone in the audience seeing what everyone else picks.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve The Copywriter
    My simple sales system can only go haywire.

    If I run out of prospects.


    So, If there are 100 lovely lady contenders - despite me looking like Alice Cooper on a bad day - and by sheer bad luck I suddenly develop an uncontrollable stutter.


    I should be Ok.


    Hopefully with those numbers maybe a touch better than ok - because I could try the " Please have sympathy close!"


    However, - if I hear that only 1 sensational lass - has seen a pic - and is extremely keen to hear my spiel - and - she wants me to go to a party...


    Then it's a definite red letter day.



    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Princess Balestra
    Gotta wondah whethah we talkin' the math of a DATIN' SITE here.

    Yanno, like Throbsy Hooman.

    Yeah, bcs that is a way cool datin' site where you can meet up an' make out with *swoon* the Ultimate Stonko Guys.

    500,000+ membahs -- an' countin'.

    Plus also ... juicily danglin'.

    Prahblem is, you gotta meet up with 'em one by one in a chat room.

    So here's how it went with "Donny".

    Donny: Hiya babe.

    Moi: *Babe?*

    Yeah, so next up was "El Rodeo".

    Dunno, I jus' gaht a gut feelin' 'bout the guy -- an' passed.

    Same for "Wonderdick", "Andy" an' "Alien Replicant Guy".

    "Mike B" showed promise, till'n he confessed to shootin' a dachshund in the stomach with a crossbow.

    An' mebbe I woulda had more time for "Celestial Croupier" had he naht started singin' his own music.

    That was my 10pm, an bcs I am mortal, I stopped.

    Next day I looked in on Hoomanistically Throbsy -- a rival datin' site with 500,000+ membahs, prolly the same loser fkrs!

    Hey, but they started out with a fun quiz.

    HOW DO YOU WANT TO THROB?

    Anyways, I ticked a whole buncha boxes -- an' I won't list 'em here bcs my repyootation as a natchrl Princess relies exclusively on nowan figurin' I total filth (howevah, I did pitch for Benedict Cumberbatch in the Fantasy Butt Spank sectschwaahn) -- an' the algorithm delivahed 3 SUREFIRE WINNERS BASED ON YOUR PROFILE.

    Tellya, ima squeein' my panties off at this point.

    Turns out "Marky Z" was a fellow Sagittarius into spirityool pursoots an' filosofical readin'.

    But he was 6 foot 8, an' no way is that happnin' at any weddin' of mine!

    Next up was "Henry Rafferty".

    But he was only on Hoomanistically Throbsy bcs he gaht stuck on a tech call went kinda tangentially crayzee.

    "I just want to get help for my dentures," he said, "but I've been consumed by a rabbit hole of nightmares from the realms of madness."

    K, so two down, one to go.

    An' yurp -- it was Mike B again.

    This time, enthoosin' 'bout how he bit a chameleon's head off in St Peter's Square an' posted it to his Final Damnation FB groop.

    That is the point I heated up a tinna tomato soop an' schloopied it up through a straw.

    Tellya, I jus' wanted to suck for dear life at that point.

    Anyways, yeah -- #2 still best choice for Moi here.
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    • Profile picture of the author savidge4
      Originally Posted by Princess Balestra View Post

      till'n he confessed to shootin' a dachshund in the stomach with a crossbow.
      Can I get a translation for " dachshund" please? Are we talking a dog?
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  • Profile picture of the author savidge4
    <pouting> Im a marketer < drops head and scuffles off>
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve The Copywriter
    ...With Princess B's tour of the Forums... # 37 expanded.


    The Beginner's Area - were too scared

    The War Room - surrendered

    Mind Warriors - had the best mind bending time

    Growth Hacking - are still in shock

    High Voltage Video - just as well she declined

    Suggestion Forum - was beyond all expectations


    Steve


    As for the Joint Ventures - you'll need to ask her...
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  • Profile picture of the author Princess Balestra
    Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

    Can I get a translation for " dachshund" please? Are we talking a dog?
    Yurp -- though prolly it oughta be called a Dachs ...




    hund

    on accounta how the end part is a long way behind the face part whenevah said pooch makes an appearance anyplace.

    Or is that actschwlly troo?

    Likely a more humongo breed of dog gaht its ass way furthah back in space, but we don't refer to it's length same way as we do with a Dachschund.

    Actschwlly, most Dachshunds are shortah than a whole buncha dog breeds.

    Gotta figure this is an analogy in its own right, kinda how you can magnify specific dimensions or feachers to command more narrative than might othahwise be warranted.

    Run a Dachshund through a doorway 'longside a Nalsayschwaahn, likely the Dachs gonna emerge first if'n speeda both dogs is same an' we jus' comparin' length.

    & yet Dachs got a brand-style mythology to which we refer ovah an' ovah.

    Gowin' back to the rignl OP query, gotta figure always how refernce points may be troo or kinda augmented.

    We happy that Dachs' are "long dogs" even though they prolly ain't.

    So is reference relative?

    In sum ways so, always.
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    • Profile picture of the author savidge4
      Originally Posted by Princess Balestra View Post

      Nalsayschwaahn
      mmmm Shwans... now I want a yogurt pops
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      • Profile picture of the author Princess Balestra
        Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

        mmmm Shwans... now I want a yogurt pops
        'Pon which zack areah of your bared butt you want I refer it, there to melt & drooble, Poppet?

        Srs thoo, I see links here butween Claude's call for eyeballs on his reference analogy an' summa the stuff gowin' down on the sistah post here 'bout swipes.

        Why refer to stuff?

        Why amass?

        Why plagiarise?

        Why gravitate toward most purposeful context?

        Gotta wondah what would happen to a Nice cube laid out anyplace onya flesh.

        Your body heat would melt it, speshly if'n you layin' out on the beach.

        An the liquid would roll off an' away along yr natchrl curves, mebbe formin' pools where it meets the right spot, like jus' above yr jugulah notch or inya navel.

        Prolly flow of that liquid is more deference than reference -- but you could chart its course, mebbe even predict it.

        That an opinion or an analogy?

        I may test this out latah if'n there ain't nuthin' on TV.
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  • Profile picture of the author Troy Arrandale
    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post


    Which party do you go to?

    For me, if i were that 25 yr old guy looking for a girlfriend, the second one.

    If I was looking for fun instead, the first one.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tiaxxx
    After more than 30 years on this planet, I can told you only one thing - choose a girl that you have common interests and passions.
    There are bunch of sexyu beautiful women that you could sleept with. But the girl who like just what you really like is only one on a bilion.

    I spend more than around 10 (my 20s-30s) years for hiting to girls on a bars, to meeting for ONS from couple of different apps and everytime it is all about the numbers, if you hit to 100 girls, tipicaly like 10 answer and with 1 you go to the bed. It is constant work to texting and going for a drink and to your house, sometimes you got bored and invite her straight to your place and etc. after all it is all about sex, and it comes with nothing much, just an achevement and numbers.

    Now Im happy with 3 years relationship with perfect girl who I love for 10002% but, she do not love what I love, and thats a problem you should always choose the perfect one for your passions and interests.

    There are a lot of beautiful womens but only one for you
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  • Profile picture of the author max5ty
    I'm a little late to the party here...

    took an extended vacation, but got a lot done.

    I'm going to do my "sell your own product" in January since we're so late in the year.

    But, my opinion on the referral thing is we're not where we used to be.

    With social media and all, we're in a new referral age.

    Most people are more convinced to try something when they see a friend recommend it through social media or word of mouth...not when the person selling it calls and give a sales pitch.

    I like what Savidge said about throwing people under the bus. That is the way the old referral system worked.

    It will be interesting to see what your method is.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

      I like what Savidge said about throwing people under the bus. That is the way the old referral system worked.

      It will be interesting to see what your method is.
      It's positioned as them helping people they care about. It's all about the relationship between them and the person they refer. I'm just the guy delivering the advice and service.

      But much of it has to do with who you are seeing. There are several factors that make someone highly likely to buy from you (besides being interested) So we want to see referrals that have at least one of these factors. For some reason, I've never seen this addressed when taking a course on referrals...or in a book on referrals......

      I get the "throw friends under the bus" or "jeopardize my relationships" or "Sic a salesman on my friends". Those are fears that are handled and and don't come up with what I teach and did. When using my approach, the client doesn't feel they are doing you a favor, and that's key. They feel like they are doing their friends a favor by recommending you.

      Much of the first part of the training is on being referable, which many business owners and salespeople are not. I used to go with sales reps who sold a lot but could never get any referrals. When I went with them on an appointment, it would be obvious to me why they didn't get any referrals.

      Once you really know the best way to get referrals and sell by referrals, it's far easier than cold calling or any other kind of prospecting. But I have to admit, it isn't simple to learn.

      I stumbled onto the core of the entire thing in the 1980s, on one appointment. The results I got were so unusual, so profitable...even though I did everything (at the beginning) in a clunky stumbling way.

      .I still didn't know why it worked, only that it did. It took me a couple of decades to figure out why any of this was working so well, and how to make it better.
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      • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
        Both Claude and Max5ty will be bringing out some new products, I am eagerly awaiting their arrival.

        It is great to see established Warriors on new or continued journeys, you guys are an inspiration to us all.

        Keep us posted as to the WHEN and where. I'll start cleaning windows to save up enough moolah to be able to afford these gems.

        Whenever, or whatever, I KNOW it will be worth our time, attention and a few coins from the piggy bank too.

        GordonJ


        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        It's positioned as them helping people they care about. It's all about the relationship between them and the person they refer. I'm just the guy delivering the advice and service.

        But much of it has to do with who you are seeing. There are several factors that make someone highly likely to buy from you (besides being interested) So we want to see referrals that have at least one of these factors. For some reason, I've never seen this addressed when taking a course on referrals...or in a book on referrals......

        I get the "throw friends under the bus" or "jeopardize my relationships" or "Sic a salesman on my friends". Those are fears that are handled and and don't come up with what I teach and did. When using my approach, the client doesn't feel they are doing you a favor, and that's key. They feel like they are doing their friends a favor by recommending you.

        Much of the first part of the training is on being referable, which many business owners and salespeople are not. I used to go with sales reps who sold a lot but could never get any referrals. When I went with them on an appointment, it would be obvious to me why they didn't get any referrals.

        Once you really know the best way to get referrals and sell by referrals, it's far easier than cold calling or any other kind of prospecting. But I have to admit, it isn't simple to learn.

        I stumbled onto the core of the entire thing in the 1980s, on one appointment. The results I got were so unusual, so profitable...even though I did everything (at the beginning) in a clunky stumbling way.

        .I still didn't know why it worked, only that it did. It took me a couple of decades to figure out why any of this was working so well, and how to make it better.
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  • Profile picture of the author max5ty
    @ Claude - you definitely have me in suspense.

    Back in the 80s when I was doing the car sales thing, I remember we would ask the customer after the sale to write down 3 names and numbers of people that might be interested in buying a car.

    That was way back then...and I'm sure I was nowhere near as good of a salesman as you. I never had any luck with that system...but then again, to be honest, I never hardly called any of the names I got.

    I did read about the salesman that sold more cars than anyone in the U.S. and he would send cards and all kinds of stuff. All he did was work on referrals and he sold something like 4 or 5 cars a day? Can't remember all the details but I know he was crazy successful.

    @ Gordon - I'm thinking about selling my product for $8995.00. That's a lot of windows. I think the headlight thing would be good too.

    Just kidding. I'm not selling anything. It's going to be more of a watch over my shoulder thing. I do appreciate your kind words though.
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    • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
      Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

      @ Claude - you definitely have me in suspense.

      Back in the 80s when I was doing the car sales thing, I remember we would ask the customer after the sale to write down 3 names and numbers of people that might be interested in buying a car.

      That was way back then...and I'm sure I was nowhere near as good of a salesman as you. I never had any luck with that system...but then again, to be honest, I never hardly called any of the names I got.

      I did read about the salesman that sold more cars than anyone in the U.S. and he would send cards and all kinds of stuff. All he did was work on referrals and he sold something like 4 or 5 cars a day? Can't remember all the details but I know he was crazy successful.

      @ Gordon - I'm thinking about selling my product for $8995.00. That's a lot of windows. I think the headlight thing would be good too.

      Just kidding. I'm not selling anything. It's going to be more of a watch over my shoulder thing. I do appreciate your kind words though.
      At 8995.00, I would have had to sell the yurt and move back into the tent, I'll be looking intently over your shoulder.

      As for referrals, I was THE KING. Every woman I dated happily gave me the name of a not so close acquaintance and wished me luck whilst changing her own phone number.

      GJ
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

      @ Claude - you definitely have me in suspense.

      Back in the 80s when I was doing the car sales thing, I remember we would ask the customer after the sale to write down 3 names and numbers of people that might be interested in buying a car.

      That was way back then...and I'm sure I was nowhere near as good of a salesman as you. I never had any luck with that system...but then again, to be honest, I never hardly called any of the names I got.

      I did read about the salesman that sold more cars than anyone in the U.S. and he would send cards and all kinds of stuff. All he did was work on referrals and he sold something like 4 or 5 cars a day? Can't remember all the details but I know he was crazy successful..
      Joe Girard. He built the largest car sales record ever (up till his death). But it was far more than just asking for referrals. He was generous to a fault with his customers, really looked out for them, and he was loved by them.

      I think we have identified my problem. When anyone in sales hears the word "referrals" they are going to picture themselves hounding friends, asking for favors, appearing weak and needy, and the whole thing not working well at all.

      And yet, the top earners in selling almost always work almost exclusively by referral. As do the best lawyers, investment advisors, and consultants.

      That means...they aren't doing what we see as referrals. They are doing something else.

      Referrals is the "Behind the curtain" view of that complaint "It's who you know". Yup.
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      • Profile picture of the author max5ty
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        Joe Girard. He built the largest car sales record ever (up till his death). But it was far more than just asking for referrals. He was generous to a fault with his customers, really looked out for them, and he was loved by them.

        I think we have identified my problem. When anyone in sales hears the word "referrals" they are going to picture themselves hounding friends, asking for favors, appearing weak and needy, and the whole thing not working well at all.
        Yes, Joe Girard!

        I'll admit whenever I hear "referrals" I either think about the Dollar Shave Club and the story of how they built a booming business using referrals...and others like Casper, The Hustle, etc...

        and when it comes to the sellular level (my new made-up phrase), as in more one on one sales, I think about the method of asking for names and numbers.
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  • Profile picture of the author toysoldier80
    I am going to the second party because the girl has already shown interest. The groundwork has been laid so once the interest has been shown, you don't have to worry about any hidden feelings of not being interested. Sharing the same interest are fun in a relationship as well. Who knows if any of the 100 single women would be interested or share the same interest. Or you could pick the wrong one and find out later how much of a wrong move it was. The second party seems to set you up for a nice long-term relationship.
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  • Profile picture of the author Software Shop
    Second party. It is hard to find 1 nice woman and this will be best choise.
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