Great Comebacks For Cheap Offline Clients?

153 replies
Hey guys!

So, if any of you do offline work I am sure that you get some cheap customers who tell you in a phone call that your proposed price is too steep and that they have found someone else. Well that has happened to me again, but this time I thought I would share it with the forum and put a twist on it.

So here is some background info...

I get a potential client, a referred one at that, so I think it is in the bag. I do my pre-consultation and all that great stuff. I then send him over a proposal, which simply breaks down as follows:


Module 1: Website Package - $1200

Includes 5 page website with custom design, all content, copy for all of his products, paypal integration, newsletter integration, the works basically...


Module 2: Marketing - $800

I offered a marketing package to send some highly targeted visitors to his website, mainly by the use of high ranking blogs in Google.


Module 3: Maintenance - $600 ($50/month for a year)

This package include all necessary changes to the website, tweaks to the marketing package, and updated content for the blogs, etc...


I send this over and get a call back after the weekend saying that they have found someone else. Me being curious asked, "How much are you paying the other guy and what are you getting?"

He explained that we was getting "the works", a full website package + marketing for $450!

I was shocked to say the least!

I thanked him for his time and hung up the phone, but the dark side of me wanted to say something back to him...

Now, before I ask the question that this thread is really about, let me say this. I would never actually be impolite to a potential client, so this thread is a JOKE!

Here is the question...

What would be your best comeback, against one of these cheap clients if you could say it without repercussion?

I'll start off with mine...

This is more of a long term comeback, but it is great! I would wait until the other guy finished the website and call the client again pretending to be a different marketing firm. I would say, "Hi, this is David from so and so marketing firm, I see that you have a home built website...did you do that yourself?"



Let's hear what you guys have to say!

Best wishes,
-Christian
#client #comebacks #great #ideas #insulted #offline #potential
  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    I'm still trying to figure out what your prospect said that was insulting.

    You asked, he answered.
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    • Profile picture of the author AP
      Now I'll tell you the Truth.

      I will never get that answer from a prospect, never.

      This is what separates the IMers from true marketing guys. Michael Hiles, Andrew Cavanaugh, David Preston, and many others.

      We are not selling a Commodity, YOU are.

      Stop selling a commodity that can be negotiated and sell your marketing ideas and Intellectual Knowledge that the rest of us do.

      I can honestly tell you in the last several years I have not had one client try and negotiate price. My normal first year fees are $30,000. My last deal was 55k and I have had one over 100k.

      Sometimes a client will do a double take at my agreement, make a comment about how I'm more expensive than their legal counsel, but they sign anyways and hand me a fat check.

      They know I am not a commodity, you can't call someone from the Yellow Pages. Most of my bus is referral based, with some Direct Mail that Positions me as the expert.

      You need to find ways to Position yourself as the expert in your field.

      I guarantee this won't be the last time that happens if you continue to sell a commodity.

      I have 3 Filipinos who work for me F/T. They can make sites all month at $400. Try and hire a Filipino to do your Marketing. Ain't gonna happen.

      Stop selling commodities, leave that to the Chicago Board of Trade.
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      • Profile picture of the author Christian Sawyer
        I appreciate your honesty, but I don't understand how you can say that I am selling a "commodity"? What a joke...

        I target smaller businesses, start-up businesses and just because I don't sell to corporate or larger businesses doesn't warrant for you to say that I sell a "commodity".

        But sure, go ahead, I still have his number if you would like to talk him up $29k+. Feel free to PM me.



        -Christian

        PS: Since you are so fast to assume, I will go ahead and assume that you failed to see the real reason behind this thread. Thanks anyways...


        Originally Posted by AP View Post

        Now I'll tell you the Truth.

        I will never get that answer from a prospect, never.

        This is what separates the IMers from true marketing guys. Michael Hiles, Andrew Cavanaugh, David Preston, and many others.

        We are not selling a Commodity, YOU are.

        Stop selling a commodity that can be negotiated and sell your marketing ideas and Intellectual Knowledge that the rest of us do.

        I can honestly tell you in the last several years I have not had one client try and negotiate price. My normal first year fees are $30,000. My last deal was 55k and I have had one over 100k.

        Sometimes a client will do a double take at my agreement, make a comment about how I'm more expensive than their legal counsel, but they sign anyways and hand me a fat check.

        They know I am not a commodity, you can't call someone from the Yellow Pages. Most of my bus is referral based, with some Direct Mail that Positions me as the expert.

        You need to find ways to Position yourself as the expert in your field.

        I guarantee this won't be the last time that happens if you continue to sell a commodity.

        I have 3 Filipinos who work for me F/T. They can make sites all month at $400. Try and hire a Filipino to do your Marketing. Ain't gonna happen.

        Stop selling commodities, leave that to the Chicago Board of Trade.
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        • Profile picture of the author AP
          I understand where you are coming from.

          However, every client has a right to be Cheap, tell me NO, etc..

          I avoid being placed in that position. I pre-qualify everyone including referrals. It's my bus I'm building, not theirs.

          I talk to my clients about Concepts.
          • What if we could position YOUR company as the authority in your niche?
          • What would happen if I could increase your sales substantially? How would that change your lifestyle?
          • What would happen if I trained your staff to increase their "prospect to buyer ratio?" What if I could increase your ratio of 2 sales for every 10 prospects to 3 sales. An increase of 50% in sales with the SAME amount of traffic?
          • What if I could train your customer service to answer calls properly? Mr Bus owner, I called your office 3x in the last week before I met you. 2 of the 3 times I was hung up on or placed into phone hell. Do you think that may be costing you any sales? Is there any chance to get Repeat sales from a prospect who got hung up on? Is there any chance that prospect will ever give us a Referral?
          I do not need any increase in traffic to my clients to increase their sales an Absolute 30% in less than 90 days. Most of my clients are doing 1-5 M in gross sales, so were talking real friggin money.

          Stop selling commodities and maybe one day you'll have a nice lifestyle, a fat bank account and clients that Love you and refer you to their friends.

          Take the advice kid and maybe one day you'll be glad I was blunt with you.
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          • Profile picture of the author Christian Sawyer
            Thanks,

            I'm sure you meant well.

            However, some people don't like targeting the high ticket clients and I can't blame you for doing so either.

            Thanks for the tips.

            -Christian

            Originally Posted by AP View Post

            I understand where you are coming from.

            However, every client has a right to be Cheap, tell me NO, etc..

            I avoid being placed in that position. I pre-qualify everyone including referrals. It's my bus I'm building, not theirs.

            I talk to my clients about Concepts.
            • What if we could position YOUR company as the authority in your niche?
            • What would happen if I could increase your sales substantially? How would that change your lifestyle?
            • What would happen if I trained your staff to increase their "prospect to buyer ratio?" What if I could increase your ratio of 2 sales for every 10 prospects to 3 sales. An increase of 50% in sales with the SAME amount of traffic?
            • What if I could train your customer service to answer calls properly? Mr Bus owner, I called your office 3x in the last week before I met you. 2 of the 3 times I was hung up on or placed into phone hell. Do you think that may be costing you any sales? Is there any chance to get Repeat sales from a prospect who got hung up on? Is there any chance that prospect will ever give us a Referral?
            I do not need any increase in traffic to my clients to increase their sales an Absolute 30% in less than 90 days. Most of my clients are doing 1-5 M in gross sales, so were talking real friggin money.

            Stop selling commodities and maybe one day you'll have a nice lifestyle, a fat bank account and clients that Love you and refer you to their friends.

            Take the advice kid and maybe one day you'll be glad I was blunt with you.
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      • Profile picture of the author JonTuckerUSA
        Well said!

        That's easier said than done obviously, but it is the way to go.

        Remember, if you're going to put together an effective website, a marketing campaign that works, and ultimately bring these people more business, then you're doing them a favor by working with them...not the other way around.



        Originally Posted by AP View Post

        Now I'll tell you the Truth.

        I will never get that answer from a prospect, never.

        This is what separates the IMers from true marketing guys. Michael Hiles, Andrew Cavanaugh, David Preston, and many others.

        We are not selling a Commodity, YOU are.

        Stop selling a commodity that can be negotiated and sell your marketing ideas and Intellectual Knowledge that the rest of us do.

        I can honestly tell you in the last several years I have not had one client try and negotiate price. My normal first year fees are $30,000. My last deal was 55k and I have had one over 100k.

        Sometimes a client will do a double take at my agreement, make a comment about how I'm more expensive than their legal counsel, but they sign anyways and hand me a fat check.

        They know I am not a commodity, you can't call someone from the Yellow Pages. Most of my bus is referral based, with some Direct Mail that Positions me as the expert.

        You need to find ways to Position yourself as the expert in your field.

        I guarantee this won't be the last time that happens if you continue to sell a commodity.

        I have 3 Filipinos who work for me F/T. They can make sites all month at $400. Try and hire a Filipino to do your Marketing. Ain't gonna happen.

        Stop selling commodities, leave that to the Chicago Board of Trade.
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      • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
        Banned
        Originally Posted by AP View Post

        I can honestly tell you in the last several years I have not had one client try and negotiate price. My normal first year fees are $30,000. My last deal was 55k and I have had one over 100k.
        What exactly are you doing for them to get these fees?
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        • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
          Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat View Post

          What exactly are you doing for them to get these fees?
          Creating multiples of that amount in value.

          My last gig was $50K for 3 weeks worth of part-time effort.

          In 60 days, I increased my clients sales by that much while taking their cost of sales to nearly nothing.
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          • Profile picture of the author Keith Boisvert
            What would I say?

            "Great, good for you. I hope all works out and I am sure they will do a great job."

            Ultimately I would look at it that I did not present my offerings properly. If I can't show enough value in my service to justify my price, then shame on me. If the customer is the type to find the cheapest person around and half-ass his site, then shame on me for poor prospecting.

            When you get into "site design", you are competing against everyone. Start competing in the "marketing" field, and include web design as part of your service....guarantee you will see things change and clients like that wont be an issue.

            keith
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      • Profile picture of the author bobmcalister
        [DELETED]
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        • Profile picture of the author AP
          Originally Posted by bobmcalister View Post

          yeah ..I got 2 client last week for 220 K and one small one for 150 K ...so aint nothing to this ...pm me for my 97 report ....lol

          so much BS here , we should start a pig farm

          now ,. when I do sign a client up for 50 K , you can bet your ass , I will post the info ..links and all .

          anyone of your BIG guys wanna do that ? didnt think so .
          I'm calling BS on you.

          Why don't I post my clients website, their confidential data, financial statements, and a copy of my NDA. Duh!

          The problem is YOU. You can't fathom that people like myself, Michael Hiles, Maria Gudelis, David Preston, etc... can get these fees.

          Your closed mind will never allow you to ever get a check for $10,000 a year, let alone a Month.

          What we do has very little to do with the so-called Offline market as is talked about most often at WF.

          I consider myself more of a "turnaround" specialist. When I meet with perspective clients I tell them that I am looking at their company as though I am a VC (Venture Capitalist). I am looking at "what would I do if I was to buy this company and turn it around."

          The Last place I look is Internet marketing. Plus clients don't really understand this. In addition they get bombed by SEO people, Reach Local, etc...

          The first item I consider is their "Infrastructure." Most co's are so screwed up because they have no business skills. They may have issues with Accounts receivables, untrained sales personnel, untrained clerical, low prices, no USP integrated with their marketing, no follow up with prospects, current, or past customers, etc...

          Do you realize that 95%+ of all co's spend 95% of their annual budgets on New Customer Acquisition? They spend almost no money on retaining past and current customers. The easiest people to sell.

          In fact, most co's that I deal with don't need a website, SEO, PPC, etc... If they simply cleaned up their act, answer the friggin phones properly, train their staff, and develop a Relationship with their Existing customers they wouldn't need MY services.

          This all seems so obvious. Guess what? No one does this. None that I have met.

          I can tell everyone on WF where the BIG money is at. Big money.

          Autoresponders! That's right. Boring old school A/R's. Gee, isn't that what all the IM Gurus tell us daily, "the money is in the list."

          I'll post more later. You can continue to do what you do, or you can take a look at how a true professional handles a client.
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          • Profile picture of the author Charles Harper
            AP, that is a great post. I think Kyle Tully talks a lot about some of these things in Consulting Tycoon.

            The more you can add to a company's bottom line as a consultant, the more of a consultant you are.

            Another helpful resource here might be Dr. Lisa Ling's Mafia Offer literature. If you Google it, you will find that she has a very interesting take on how to effectively train your clients to pay you what you are worth regardless of their size.

            The truth of the matter is that if all we do is to complete the project and not provide results, we really are giving them a product to compare on the market.

            Terrific discussion, Warriors...very enjoyable.

            Charles

            Originally Posted by AP View Post

            I'm calling BS on you.

            Why don't I post my clients website, their confidential data, financial statements, and a copy of my NDA. Duh!

            The problem is YOU. You can't fathom that people like myself, Michael Hiles, Maria Gudelis, David Preston, etc... can get these fees.

            Your closed mind will never allow you to ever get a check for $10,000 a year, let alone a Month.

            What we do has very little to do with the so-called Offline market as is talked about most often at WF.

            I consider myself more of a "turnaround" specialist. When I meet with perspective clients I tell them that I am looking at their company as though I am a VC (Venture Capitalist). I am looking at "what would I do if I was to buy this company and turn it around."

            The Last place I look is Internet marketing. Plus clients don't really understand this. In addition they get bombed by SEO people, Reach Local, etc...

            The first item I consider is their "Infrastructure." Most co's are so screwed up because they have no business skills. They may have issues with Accounts receivables, untrained sales personnel, untrained clerical, low prices, no USP integrated with their marketing, no follow up with prospects, current, or past customers, etc...

            Do you realize that 95%+ of all co's spend 95% of their annual budgets on New Customer Acquisition? They spend almost no money on retaining past and current customers. The easiest people to sell.

            In fact, most co's that I deal with don't need a website, SEO, PPC, etc... If they simply cleaned up their act, answer the friggin phones properly, train their staff, and develop a Relationship with their Existing customers they wouldn't need MY services.

            This all seems so obvious. Guess what? No one does this. None that I have met.

            I can tell everyone on WF where the BIG money is at. Big money.

            Autoresponders! That's right. Boring old school A/R's. Gee, isn't that what all the IM Gurus tell us daily, "the money is in the list."

            I'll post more later. You can continue to do what you do, or you can take a look at how a true professional handles a client.
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        • Profile picture of the author skydivedad
          Originally Posted by bobmcalister View Post

          yeah ..I got 2 client last week for 220 K and one small one for 150 K ...so aint nothing to this ...pm me for my 97 report ....lol

          so much BS here , we should start a pig farm

          now ,. when I do sign a client up for 50 K , you can bet your ass , I will post the info ..links and all .

          anyone of your BIG guys wanna do that ? didnt think so .

          Hi My Friend

          Great thread gang. I rarely chime in to these however I did Post 1 1099 here on the Warrior Forum I received from 1 client for $13,000. Since that time I've received 2 more 1099's from that same company for a total of a mere $50K. That's 1 client of many. I don't consider myself one of the "Big Guys" Only that I walk what I talk and so can you! Making a shift in how you choose to perceive the value of your services is the place to start. There are plenty of cheap imitations out there Bob but I believe the advice given in this thread to be based upon genuine accomplishment and shared here with Good Will and the Best of intentions in the Spirit of the Warrior Forum. Sometimes suspending suspicion can open up a whole new "Profitable" way of conducting business.

          Thanks
          All The Best
          Paul
          Signature

          Making Lemonaide... Skydivedad's Blog

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      • Profile picture of the author Blase
        Originally Posted by AP View Post

        Now I'll tell you the Truth.

        I will never get that answer from a prospect, never.

        This is what separates the IMers from true marketing guys. Michael Hiles, Andrew Cavanaugh, David Preston, and many others.

        We are not selling a Commodity, YOU are.

        Stop selling a commodity that can be negotiated and sell your marketing ideas and Intellectual Knowledge that the rest of us do.

        I can honestly tell you in the last several years I have not had one client try and negotiate price. My normal first year fees are $30,000. My last deal was 55k and I have had one over 100k.

        Sometimes a client will do a double take at my agreement, make a comment about how I'm more expensive than their legal counsel, but they sign anyways and hand me a fat check.

        They know I am not a commodity, you can't call someone from the Yellow Pages. Most of my bus is referral based, with some Direct Mail that Positions me as the expert.

        You need to find ways to Position yourself as the expert in your field.

        I guarantee this won't be the last time that happens if you continue to sell a commodity.

        I have 3 Filipinos who work for me F/T. They can make sites all month at $400. Try and hire a Filipino to do your Marketing. Ain't gonna happen.

        Stop selling commodities, leave that to the Chicago Board of Trade.
        BAM!

        That is hitting the nail on the head!
        I was thinking the same thing.
        If a customer can price shop you, you
        aren't selling you're taking orders.
        Signature
        "Nothing Happens Until Something Is Sold"
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      • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
        Originally Posted by AP View Post

        Now I'll tell you the Truth.
        <snip>
        I will never get that answer from a prospect, never.
        Impressive. Lucky you. I have, a couple of times. It happens occasionally to certain less-than-perfect types, eg me, lol. Conversely, I also get extra business, totally unsolicited, from customers so satisfied with my services they want more.
        Signature

        Project HERE.

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      • Profile picture of the author badfun
        Originally Posted by AP View Post

        Try and hire a Filipino to do your Marketing. Ain't gonna happen.
        WTF? any other races or cultures who aren't capable AP? I'm willing to bet there are more than a few Filipino's right here on this forum who are excellent marketers.

        beyond that I have to agree with AP's response. You can't be a commodity, there will always be someone cheaper. You have to convince the customer that you are better.

        Many times I've lost gigs by being undercut and never regretted it. "Don't fight for the bargain basement" says Robert Kiyosaki. You have to provide enough value to be worth the price you are charging.

        Being over concerned with the fee is a red flag. Avoid those clients.

        brent
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        • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
          Originally Posted by badfun View Post

          WTF? any other races or cultures who aren't capable AP? I'm willing to bet there are more than a few Filipino's right here on this forum who are excellent marketers.

          beyond that I have to agree with AP's response. You can't be a commodity, there will always be someone cheaper. You have to convince the customer that you are better.

          Many times I've lost gigs by being undercut and never regretted it. "Don't fight for the bargain basement" says Robert Kiyosaki. You have to provide enough value to be worth the price you are charging.

          Being over concerned with the fee is a red flag. Avoid those clients.

          brent
          lol

          Inexperience ringing through in this. No offense intended Brent, but there are specific, business reasons to outsource to the Phillippenes, particularly if you're a US-based business. The least of which is that they're incredibly "Americanized" in their culture and language.

          As a homework assignment for you, do a little research into what some other reasons are, and come back and report your findings to everyone.

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          • Profile picture of the author badfun
            Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

            lol

            As a homework assignment for you, do a little research into what some other reasons are, and come back and report your findings to everyone.

            I'm not really sure I understand my assignment Michael. I knew what AP meant, just didn't like his wording. Pretty PC, yeah I know. But hey, I'm Canadian!
            brent
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              • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
                JMB, that's a great story...

                Quite different than the situation which prompted this thread. In the OP, the poster provided a detailed quote, which the prospect used to price shop him right out of the equation.

                You chose to do pro bono work based on your relationship with your friend. A couple weeks ago, Ken Perry (Jagged) posted a story on how he did some work for a local charity for free and it ended up bringing him business.

                http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ge-places.html

                I'm not saying one should never do work for clients who can't pay big bucks. Under the right circumstances, it's a smart business move. And sometimes, it's just the right thing to do.
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    • Profile picture of the author cityofangels
      I agree with AP--next. It's a numbers game, so no need to get hung up with one prospect. There are plenty more out there.
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  • Profile picture of the author Vadym
    You've got his money. Who cares if he insults you? You can tell your friends I ate your socks as long as you cough up the money you owe me.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rob Thayer
    My response would have been, "Well, if it doesn't work out for some reason, please give me a call." The client may find that they actually get what they pay for.
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  • Profile picture of the author MarkH45
    "Good Luck"
    Signature
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    I don't even discuss "doing websites".

    It's somewhere in the "lead generation tactics" discussion.

    "Oh, you don't have a website? I sort of assumed that you did. Well, we'll take care of that, but we really need to discuss other ways of how we're going to drive prospects into your your lead nurturing system."
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  • Profile picture of the author artwebster
    Hi, Christian,

    You could have said

    "Wow! Congratulations! You got a great deal there! I have been looking for ways to make my services cheaper so would it be possible for me to come round and look at this proposal?"

    That way you would have found out if there was one.
    Signature

    You might not like what I say - but I believe it.
    Build it, make money, then build some more
    Some old school smarts would help - and here's to Rob Toth for his help. Bloody good stuff, even the freebies!

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  • Profile picture of the author I.M.Retired
    Christian: I would say to the customer as politely as possible:

    Thank you Mr./Mrs/Ms. X for considering my service - I appreciate the fact that you gave careful consideration to what I have to offer. I know what my service is worth. And I'm sure Company X knows what their service is worth, as well.
    Leave it to the customer to work out the implication of what you just said.

    I might also ask if the customer would like to receive a brochure, or mention that I am offering an x% discount for the highest priced package only for x number of days or weeks, and then invite the customer to get back to me if for any reason they are not satisfied with the work of the lesser priced company.

    This usually gets the customer thinking about wasting their hard earned money for inferior products or services. You're also offering a deal on your expensive package - everyone likes a deal!

    You don't have to insult the competitor, just acknowledge that they know what their services are worth. And so do you. And the customer is about to find that out!
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  • Profile picture of the author DogScout
    I have a client. He nets a large amount per sign-up to his service. I never gave him a list of what I would or would not do. I never gave him a contract either. If I were to send a mere 2.000 targeted visitors to his site and he only was able to sign two of them, his ROI with me is close to 1/20.

    He has had other companies in the past give him contracts, lists of services, explain how they will help his business, etc. In a year he had zero people sign up as a result of finding him through the web with those services. With me he signs 4-8 a month (4 the 3 days after I began). Not a ton, but a whole ot better than some flashy guy in a suit that thinks it is still 1996. Lol. He can 'fire' me anytime he likes. Or I can go anytime I like. He gets offers constantly from other larger and fancier companies that say his site sucks and they can do this and that (he sends them all to me. Lol). Maybe they can, maybe they can't. Maybe the site does suck.

    I promise one thing and one thing only. To increase his business. Period. How it is done varies from client to client and testing a market is essential (to me). If I don't increase sales, why would I expect to be paid? AP charges a lot more than I do. I typically offer to businesses that don't have a lot of cash. They are the ones that need a boast the most. Hard to find a person with 2 employees (or none) that can shell out 30K for a promise. So I make a little less at first. When documented sales from my efforts become the difference of live and death to a small business, they rarely entertain another offer. They rarely balk at a price increase. And they are usually grateful. They also send all their friends so almost never do I get Mom trying to talk me down. Lol.

    for 2K and $50 a month, you didn't lose anything. Be glad they went away. your time is worth more than that.
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  • Profile picture of the author GoGetta
    You get this,

    I would make a note of there details, leave it a month and call back to see how everything is going.

    I have signed up many a clients doing this! ; )

    Keep following up until they tell you to stop calling! I make sure every follow up call starts and is based around advice, in the end they see my value! ; )

    GoGetta
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  • Profile picture of the author Scott Ames
    A twist from an old marketing story:

    How much is your site? $450... oh .. we specialize in fixing $450 sites.
    Signature

    Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm. -Winston Churchill

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  • Profile picture of the author n00b
    Honestly you're better of without them. If they are going to dicker about price at the beginning, they'll dicker about everything else and try to wrangle you into doing free work.

    I had a friend who referred me someone that just wanted a site made. I typically don't take these types of clients because I specialize in marketing and this guy just really wanted a website. So as a favor to my friend I talk to this guy. He tells me how he's hired several people in the past and none of them ever pan out. He's paid multiple people $400 a piece to do his site and then they flake out and bottom line is it's over 2 years later and he still doesn't have a site he's happy with.

    So I tell him my price (which I actually discounted since this whole thing is really just a favor) and he tells me he just wants to pay $400. Uhhh...it hasn't worked for you yet, are you really going to keep going down that road? Turns out his assistant has a friend who will do it a lot cheaper than I will.

    Now I'm a very frugal person, but it makes sense to pay more to have it done right the first time than to end up spending more in the long run fixing cheap mistakes. Of course all these people who are doing cheap work (in every sense of the word) give our profession a bad name and make people that much more wary to hire a web person. Of course all those wary people don't realize that they're the ones that messed up by only looking at price and not quality or value. If this guy the OP mentioned doesn't work out then he'll be wary to hire the OP later because he's already been screwed once.
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  • Profile picture of the author AffiliateInABox1
    Actually I`d say your client was perfectly in his right to decline, and that no comeback would be necessary.
    However, I can understand where you are coming from, you feel because of the time invested (yours) that you should have some kind of recompense, and are annoyed that he didn\'t go with you. You shouldn`t be upset, this is just part of the business process. You should also look at your prices. Quite possibly you have priced yourself out of the market, and either need to become more competive (more efficient in what you offer), reposition yourself (offer something others don`t), or look at offering other services.
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Christian, no one is looking down their nose at you for choosing to work with smaller clients. I have a soft spot for them myself.

      But the truth is, you put yourself in the 'commodity' column the moment you submitted a detailed proposal - Module 1, 2, 3 with a price breakdown. That gave him the ammunition to call another provider and ask if your proposal was fair or if they could beat it. In this case, they chose to beat it emphatically.

      If, as Art said, there was another proposal.
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  • Profile picture of the author ebookdaddy
    Hey Christian, I feel your pain man. Listen don't worry so much about it, this happens all the time when your selling services.


    There is always someone out there undercutting the next guy. The trick is to keep your composure and be a professional.


    I would simply thank him for his time and ask if you could check back with him in a few weeks to see how his new $450.00 dollar site is doing in the search engines.


    Believe me when I tell you it wont be doing well.


    Think about it, could you create a site, do the market research for targeting keywords, create the graphics, setup the landing pages for lead generation, setup the autoresponder messages, track the analytic, drive the traffic, write the articles, do the backlinking and maintain his site for $450.00 bucks?


    I didn't think so, no one would. He will find out he got what he paid for.


    The good news is that once he sees the results he will remember your professionalism and want to have you fix things, assuming you kept in touch with him.


    At this point though I'm pretty sure you may not want to, seeing as he's a penny pincher.


    I always go for clients who are not afraid to spend money to bring in new clients. If your potential client is not actively promoting, then chances are they either don't have the capital or are completely clueless about why they need to advertise.


    In any case at least your out there doing something instead of dreaming about it.


    Good luck in all your endeavors offline, and remember there is always another client just around the corner.
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    • Profile picture of the author mgkimsal
      Originally Posted by ebookdaddy View Post

      Hey Christian, I feel your pain man. Listen don't worry so much about it, this happens all the time when your selling services.


      There is always someone out there undercutting the next guy. The trick is to keep your composure and be a professional.


      I would simply thank him for his time and ask if you could check back with him in a few weeks to see how his new $450.00 dollar site is doing in the search engines.


      Believe me when I tell you it wont be doing well.


      Think about it, could you create a site, do the market research for targeting keywords, create the graphics, setup the landing pages for lead generation, setup the autoresponder messages, track the analytic, drive the traffic, write the articles, do the backlinking and maintain his site for $450.00 bucks?


      I didn't think so, no one would. He will find out he got what he paid for.
      Honestly though, is someone paying an extra $350 really going to get an awesomely fantastic 'better' job? The difference I was seeing here is between $450 and $800 - but maybe it's between $450 and $1200. Still not a huge amount of difference, and to try to convince someone they're getting a vast amount of 'quality' for not even $800 more money is kind of silly.

      You're going to get in to a situation of trying to quantify efforts and justify expenses for an extra few hundred $. It's most likely not worth the hassle.

      As someone else said, position yourself as the expert in a particular field/technique, then sell that.
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      • Profile picture of the author Christian Sawyer
        The difference was actually $2150.

        I was asked to break down the pricing for each module because he aske me to do so. He wasn't exactly what he wanted, so I said I would include a few things and he could pick and choose.

        I guess that set me up for the failure...haha.

        Thanks for the help guys, and the great comeback ideas!



        -Christian


        Originally Posted by mgkimsal View Post

        Honestly though, is someone paying an extra $350 really going to get an awesomely fantastic 'better' job? The difference I was seeing here is between $450 and $800 - but maybe it's between $450 and $1200. Still not a huge amount of difference, and to try to convince someone they're getting a vast amount of 'quality' for not even $800 more money is kind of silly.

        You're going to get in to a situation of trying to quantify efforts and justify expenses for an extra few hundred $. It's most likely not worth the hassle.

        As someone else said, position yourself as the expert in a particular field/technique, then sell that.
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        • Profile picture of the author JustVisiting
          Originally Posted by Christian Sawyer View Post

          The difference was actually $2150.

          I was asked to break down the pricing for each module because he aske me to do so. He wasn't exactly what he wanted, so I said I would include a few things and he could pick and choose.
          Christian

          I've found this works:
          Ideally your offline clients should be within a distance that you can actually visit them. Many people don't like doing this but it really does work. I find once I get in front of an interested client I can sell them on what they need. Remember, you are the expert - the potential client probably does not know what they want. Once they trust you and you show an understanding of their business you can charge accordingly. Get them to sign a contract and take a deposit there and then.
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        • Profile picture of the author mgkimsal
          I was thinking those price points were themselves different packages - I didn't see them as separate pieces - sorry.
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          • Profile picture of the author koolphoto
            My advice is to just move on.

            I think my prices are fair for both my perspective clients and myself. I rarely will come down.

            I have found that in most cases you get what you pay for both for the clients and for myself.

            When I was just starting out with web design, I once had a client who thought my quote was way too high. I asked $750 she wanted it for $300. I wanted the client and came down and agreed to do it for her price. She was one of the worst clients I ever dealt with.

            Everything I did was wrong and needed to be corrected. She kept adding more and more pages and complained that I wanted to charge her more. I ended up doing with all the additions a $1200 site for $300 and this took me a lot more time then I had budgeted.

            That taught me a great lesson. I since have improved the wording in my contract and do not negotiate my estimate down. If a perspective client can find it cheaper then I wish them well and move on to the next project.
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          • Profile picture of the author 5Tool
            Good stuff here. There are definitely 2 mentalities at play- the heavy hitters who land the $10k plus clients and the offliners who land in the neighborhood of $800-$2000 clients.

            Some of the newer offliners need to start smaller to get their chops first, and then aim for the bigger fish. It depends on your level of experience and sales ability. Aim as high as you can for your experience and ability, then as you get more confident move up the food chain.

            The most interesting part of this discussion for me is the variety of how to run the business: creating a proposal to leave with the client vs one call close, using a contract vs using emails to detail what you'll do.

            Everyone needs to find their comfort level while making sure you're profitable and protected legally.

            My 2 cents anyway.
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  • Profile picture of the author JRG
    I would listen to AP that guy has some pretty solid advise. I am working on changing my model from selling a service to selling results. Too many crappy web guys out there that are promising the world on a website for dirt cheap. But by selling the whole package you are no longer competing with the crappy web guy who's own site reminds you of a free geocities site lol.
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  • Profile picture of the author bobmcalister
    ok ...I am game. Lets get started .
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  • Profile picture of the author twright
    Christian, excellent topic

    Some solid advice has been thrown out here for people to use or not use.. being a part time offliner I see all aspects of what is being said here. A business wants increased revenue and through a website they see the potential to increase revenue but most of these guys need to have a overall marketing plan installed to really help them, a website is just part of it.

    Thanks for a educating post!
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  • Profile picture of the author SeanyG
    "Find someone else to work with".

    You want to be working with clients that value your time. I have found with consulting that it is always the clients that try to bargain you down that end up still unsatisfied in the end.
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  • Profile picture of the author Always-A-Warrior
    All great advices as I just started helping businesses in my local community too. I don't too much phone calls myself and if can I meet with them face to face.
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  • Profile picture of the author raskal
    interesting topic and some great ways of looking at things in a different perspective. I look foward to some more helpful posts.
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  • Profile picture of the author TJ Kazunga
    Directed to AP, Michael Hiles et al...

    Cool that you guys get big gigs but the tone of your posts is a bit wierd...

    As I'm sure you'll be the first to admit, no one has all the answers, and many multi-million dollar businesses are based on selling low, at volume.

    Yeah cool, if you want to go down your road and charge large bucks, do it. But alternatively, you can charge less, properly set up your systems and procedures to scale up and nail a hell of of a lot of clients paying you £750 a month.

    Not more work (provided you have the right systems), just a larger client pool, which can brings it's own considerable benefits down the road if you want to sell up, build JVs etc etc.

    One other thing, it is easier to sell the latter type of business as it is not tied up with a "personality" or specific skills that only one individual has. Lower cost "plug in" systems that work are can be snapped up at 10X profit, provided you can prove scalability.

    I think it's great that you guys do so well,congrats. But no need to be condescending because someone's business is focused on lower prices.

    Peace and love everyone, peace and love...
    TJ
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  • Profile picture of the author ramohr
    I own a local home improvement business that specializes in
    home design... Because of the slow economy I attempted to
    get into home repair handyman type stuff...and it was a mistake
    people want you to work for free.

    People are excepting low end bids from contactor scums...
    I am not going to walmart myself.

    So I am with the Guy do not make yourself a commodity.
    Create a USP that focuses on what you can do for the client
    no one else can.

    Back to my point...home remodelers are PIMPING themselves and
    when the market turns around they will still have the cheap label.
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  • Profile picture of the author Vagabond 007
    Yet another example of ignorance.

    You've got a guy on here telling you how he gets paid large sums of money and all some of you can reply with is "Yeah, but...."

    Has it every occurred to some of you that the Warrior Forum and the recent "offline gold niche" is so tiny compared to the rest of the world? There is so much more to helping businesses than SEO work. I'm guilty of this myself...my product that I sell mentioned SEO and other internet related things. Which is why I'm working on updating it to focus more on the other ways you can increase business profits withOUT the internet or SEO.

    Others mention it, I have mentioned it before, and it never fails...when someone talks about mindset and how that is related to your success, or lack of success, either nobody pays attention or replies saying how idiotic it is.

    I guess it's the difference between the magic bullet mindset and the mindset of successful people...you know, the ones that realize there is no magic bullet.

    It's a shame the Self Improvement part of this forum isn't more active...
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  • Profile picture of the author JRG
    Yeah I don't think guys like AP mean to sound arrogant but I understand that they are the type that are just to the point. Most people with the kind of experience they have are.

    But at least they are here and offering advise! And as Vagabond said he is telling someone how he makes a ton of money at what he does and he is getting "yeah buts" and being accused of BS!

    You would think some people completely new to this and do not know that you can make big money and that some are making way way more than others.

    When I find someone making way more than I am I read every post and take action on whatever I can!
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    Originally Posted by bobmcalister View Post

    yeah ..I got 2 client last week for 220 K and one small one for 150 K ...so aint nothing to this ...pm me for my 97 report ....lol

    so much BS here , we should start a pig farm

    now ,. when I do sign a client up for 50 K , you can bet your ass , I will post the info ..links and all .

    anyone of your BIG guys wanna do that ? didnt think so .
    Interesting attitude Bob, especially considering I don't have anything for sale here.

    So you can't buy anything from me.

    Nothing.

    You'd definately recognize some of my key clients.

    Procter & Gamble, ever hear of them? They used to own a little brand of coffee called Folgers. Several years ago, they launched their instant latte product, Folger's Latte, and rolled out a huge marketing campaign to college students with campus music tours and free sample giveaways. I put together the integration between their web front end and their sampling fulfillment company, a firm at that time called Protocol Marketing. That was a multi-million dollar project alone.

    Ever hear of Siemens Business Communications? Siemens had a software company partner called ADIS Automotive Dealership Information Systems. This company had a highly specialized CRM system tailored for retail automotive dealers that captured all of the incoming traffic of web contact requests, inbound PBX calls to the dealership, etc... I built all of the web integration side that used a plug-in to drive all the opt-in and information requests from a dealer's website into the database system. Before ADIS was sold to Reynolds & Reynolds for $40 million, I enjoyed hanging out with them and Siemens, and Gene Simmons (the rocker) in Siemen's booth in New Orleans at the NADA convention. That was a very large deal for me. Still fantastic friends with the CEO of ADIS, who started a couple more successful ventures before deciding to get Wife v. 2.0 and retiring to North Carolina. Could raise millions with him in venture money with a single phone call.

    It was 1994 when I got into this game, and I merged my first web development company with Reach Publishing Systems in 1999. They own about 30% of the nation's Val-Pak (the blue coupon direct mail envelope) franchises. At the time, they had zero web effort for anything internally, or anything to offer their coupon advertising direct mail clients. That's was an $80 million dollar/year company in 2001 when I took the check and walked away. Still great friends with the CEO and I could drop 100,000,000 mail pieces for any client in the top 25 national markets with about 6 weeks lead time for each market. It was commonplace to do $20,000 every six weeks with many local business clients in combined direct mail and web campaigns.

    Would you like me to continue?

    The funding to start my web development company came from my opportunity to sit on the board of directors as the CIO for a startup private mortgage insurance company that was headed up by the founder and CEO of General Electric Mortgage Insurance Corp (GEMIC). When PMICO was sold to 3rd Federal Savings & Loan, I took my money and started a web dev firm.

    Prior to that, I was installing predictive dialing systems for financial planning firms to do outbound marketing and direct mail campaigns. That is where I met the CEO that was starting PMICO.

    I really don't have anything to prove to anyone, but I am certainly proud of my accomplishments in my career and have zero problem putting it on the table. I generally don't though because it tends to put a lot of "warrior types" on the defensive - whether because of my corporate orientation, or experience, or whatever. So I just sort of talk from experience and leave my resume in the attache.

    Recently, I've worked on testing a couple of "offline" product launches, one I beleve that you're even a member of the mailing list (until I log into Aweber and remove you). I pulled off of it because what I do has tested to be far above the general mindset of the specific market of the WF, and frankly, I am pretty busy right now just simply DOING my level of consulting work.

    I may still do something, but right now I am focused on the consulting work that has picked back up in a huge way in the 3rd quarter of this year, which is sort of in a conflict with the fact that my wife and I are expecting our 2nd child any day now, and I'm torn between retiring again to spend time with the kids and taking advantage of the low hanging fruit.

    Just today, I had a fellow warrior request coaching from me. My response? I don't really do it as a service to other marketers, but I'd be happy to advise you, answer questions within reason, etc... here's my email address. No charge.

    As for your $50K deal, that is actually quite modest in the world of corporate consulting. That's actually only 250 hours at a straight fee of $200/hr. Six man weeks? Not really a big deal for my average client size of $10 million in sales with 40 employees.

    Feel free to post all the details when you actually do land one.
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  • Profile picture of the author JRG
    lol I love Val-Pak I actually use those to find more clients. Sometimes it is best to find them in places where they are already spending money.

    Yeah pretty sure Michael knows his stuff!
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  • Profile picture of the author xbokcom
    MichaelHiles I have really respect for you.

    I wish you the best in your adventures.

    You give me great advice here just reading what you say.

    Renier
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    • Profile picture of the author TJ Kazunga
      Interesting attitude Bob, especially considering I don't have anything for sale here.

      So you can't buy anything from me.

      Nothing.

      You'd definately recognize some of my key clients.

      Procter & Gamble, ever hear of them? They used to own a little brand of coffee called Folgers. Several years ago, they launched their instant latte product, Folger's Latte, and rolled out a huge marketing campaign to college students with campus music tours and free sample giveaways. I put together the integration between their web front end and their sampling fulfillment company, a firm at that time called Protocol Marketing. That was a multi-million dollar project alone.
      Michae, nice post and impressive CV - it must be rewarding work.

      But as you pointed out, what you do is orders of magnitude beyond the WSO "offline niche". End of the day, most people realistically won't t be able to do what you do, or even want to - but they could still build a strong income offering web services, PPC management, video marketing, SEO etc and build up a good size business.

      Talking of video marketing, check out Online Video Production, Advertising and Distribution &mdash; TurnHere Internet Video - that is building a significant business out of one service that many warriors can do - I think that they do over 1,000 videos a month, for less than a grand a video. Just another example of a successful company based on selling a valuable and affordable service at volume.

      With the right planning and investing in the right systems, one could build a million dollar company offering these "cheap" services, it's been done before and will be done again, time after time.

      High end consulting sounds cool, but so does having hundreds of small businesses as clients and making a mint that way!

      Obviously you can tell where I've placed my bets - it would be interesting to get your thoughts on building a successful marketing business aimed at at providing affordable services to small businesses.

      And if you do get round to writing your WSO I would be interested - always keen to learn and develop from others who have found success in their field.

      Yet another example of ignorance.

      You've got a guy on here telling you how he gets paid large sums of money and all some of you can reply with is "Yeah, but...."

      Has it every occurred to some of you that the Warrior Forum and the recent "offline gold niche" is so tiny compared to the rest of the world? There is so much more to helping businesses than SEO work. I'm guilty of this myself...my product that I sell mentioned SEO and other internet related things. Which is why I'm working on updating it to focus more on the other ways you can increase business profits without the Internet or SEO.
      Vagabond, this is forum to share ideas and debate, so as far as I'm concerned, "yeah but" if good is you're putting across an alternate view. Nothing wrong with challenging people or sticking up for something you believe in. So long as it's done with respect it's what makes this forum rock.

      Cheers
      TJ
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      • Profile picture of the author JRG
        Topic seems to be shifting a bit but here is what I have found to be a problem.

        If you are marketing to businesses and selling them on an auto responder for example. David Preston has taught on contacting these businesses and offering the auto responder for $500 and then setup a monthly fee of $150 to $250.

        That's great but after a few months of no signups the business is going to start asking questions.

        Without traffic the autoresponder is crap. And that traffic must be targeted traffic for them to convert. So now we are looking at seo and possibly PPC.

        But maybe on top of that the service that is being offered is priced wrong. So they are getting to the site looking at the service and cost and walking away. Now we are looking at pricing.

        This can go on and on.

        The problem comes when a business invests money in you and doesn't see results. That may not be your fault but if you were able to learn how to advise them on all aspects of their business you can be more confident that your efforts will be successful and that will lead to a longer relationship with them and referrals.

        For instance I am working with a client who has had a real struggle selling his product. After more investigating it turns out that he is charging double what the rest of the market is charging for the same product.

        He bought the company from someone who sold him on a lie that he could sell the product for 400% profit. Now in this case the biz owner should have been smarter with his investment.

        But if I did not investigate further and ask the right questions I could have put up an auto responder and watched him get frustrated that it did him no good.

        Instead I am building a longer relationship with him and overall have a chance to make a lot more money and bring in some referrals from it.

        And that is why offering him results and not a website was the best route and positioned me to ask for more money.
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        • Profile picture of the author wbinst2
          You say "thats ok, i hope it works out for you. If you need any advice in future, keep my number and call me, i'll be happy to help you" in a very friendly, sincere way.

          Thats it. Its business, you wont get every gig you want. Do you you expect to?

          There will be times when a prospect goes with you at the expense of someone else. Big deal.

          If you make a witty smart ass comeback every time you miss a bid, you wont be in business long.
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      • Profile picture of the author Vagabond 007
        Originally Posted by TJ Kazunga View Post

        Vagabond, this is forum to share ideas and debate, so as far as I'm concerned, "yeah but" if good is you're putting across an alternate view. Nothing wrong with challenging people or sticking up for something you believe in. So long as it's done with respect it's what makes this forum rock.
        I'm ALWAYS up for an alternate view. But don't kid yourself. 90% of the "yeah buts" are excuses. Not an alternate view.

        Originally Posted by TJ Kazunga View Post

        High end consulting sounds cool, but so does having hundreds of small businesses as clients and making a mint that way!

        Obviously you can tell where I've placed my bets - it would be interesting to get your thoughts on building a successful marketing business aimed at at providing affordable services to small businesses.
        There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with doing this. I don't want you to think I am knocking you, or anyone, who would rather only charge a few hundred/grand on local businesses. Obviously there is nothing wrong with helping the smaller kinds of businesses. The problem with your plan, helping "hundreds" of businesses will wear you out fast. You only have 24 hours in a day.

        I get it...."If I could get 100 businesses to pay me $200 a month for an autoresponder I'd be set!" Sounds great when you put it like that. But good luck getting 100 businesses. Then if you somehow managed that, good luck keeping track of everything and having any free time.

        Which is why it's better, imo, to go after the higher paying clients. Less clients to deal with. Same amount of money....actually more if you're any good at what you do. But hanging out on the Warrior Forum looking for the next magic pill is never going to get you there.

        You need to read actual books on marketing. You need to learn how to position yourself properly. You need to learn how to pre-qualify clients. This is all stuff you won't learn on here...I never see it talked about.

        I guarantee I can walk into any business and tell them exactly what to do in order to increase their profits that day! As AP said, it's not that hard. Even if you are a complete newbie, I could give you a list of a few books to read and once you read them you could do the same thing....walk into any business and show them ways to make more money.

        But I digress.

        My overall point is, a lot of people constantly make excuses for why something can't be done instead of finding ways to get it done.

        It all comes back to mindset. I could write an entire book on mindset and how it governs your entire life. A book that would blow The Secret out of the water. And if people actually read it and then applied what they learned, their life would do a complete 180. But people always want [what they think] is the quick fix. So I would lose 95% at the "apply what you learn" part.

        The OP was dead in the water before he even got to the "I found someone cheaper" comment. He was fighting an uphill battle before he even contacted this person for the first time.

        But few people can pick up on that. Because there is so much more going on beneath the surface. Stuff that you'll never see unless you have a firm understanding of the proper mindset needed in order to succeed.
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        • Profile picture of the author AP
          Great post. I'll add my .02

          Comments in Blue.


          Originally Posted by Vagabond 007 View Post

          The problem with your plan, helping "hundreds" of businesses will wear you out fast. You only have 24 hours in a day.

          Actually, I prefer not to work more than 6 hours. Everyone here can do it.

          Hit the friggin nail on the head. Let me tell you, even 20 clients at $1,497 month will wear you out, unless you have systems in place.

          I get it...."If I could get 100 businesses to pay me $200 a month for an autoresponder I'd be set!" Sounds great when you put it like that. But good luck getting 100 businesses. Then if you somehow managed that, good luck keeping track of everything and having any free time.

          If I had 100 business owners I'd quit the biz.

          Managing ARs is a PITA. Don't do it.

          Which is why it's better, imo, to go after the higher paying clients. Less clients to deal with.

          My clients that pay me $1,497+ month rarely call me. In fact, the higher paying clients call the least. The small clients who pay me less than $500 are my Biggest PITA. I'm raising their fees by over $1,000 January 1, hoping they'll Fire me.

          You need to read actual books on marketing.

          Everyone spends too much time reading about SEO, PPC, PPV, Website design, Auto responders, etc... when they should be reading books by the Masters.

          Read the books below and you'll know more than 99% of all small biz owners hands down.

          Start with these:

          Influence, Robert B. Cialdini, Book - Barnes & Noble

          Amazon.com: Ogilvy on Advertising (9780394729039): David Ogilvy: Books

          Amazon.com: The Tipping Point: How Little Things Can Make a Big Difference (9780316346627): Malcolm Gladwell: Books

          Amazon.com: No B.S. Direct Marketing: The Ultimate, No Holds Barred, Kick Butt, Take No Prisoners Direct Marketing for Non-direct Marketing Businesses (NO BS) (9781932531572): Dan Kennedy: Books

          Amazon.com: Tested Advertising Methods (Prentice Hall Business Classics) (9780130957016): John Caples, Fred E. Hahn: Books

          Amazon.com: My Life in Advertising and Scientific Advertising (Advertising Age Classics Library) (9780844231013): Claude Hopkins: Books

          You need to learn how to position yourself properly. You need to learn how to pre-qualify clients. This is all stuff you won't learn on here...I never see it talked about.

          Positioning is CRITICAL. I never call a prospect. I'll send mail, but never call. They must call me, then I will have a 15 min interview to see if "I want them as MY client." They "think" they are interviewing me, when in reality I am interviewing them.

          I guarantee I can walk into any business and tell them exactly what to do in order to increase their profits that day! As AP said, it's not that hard.

          I would guess 90% of the WF members know more about marketing than 90% of most small business owners, less than 1M in sales. I work with biz owners between 5-10 M that are complete morons. My dog could run their business better.


          It all comes back to mindset.

          Bingo! IMHO nothing is more important. This is a key element to success in any business. Watch Donald Trump, think he has the right mindset?

          I could write an entire book on mindset and how it governs your entire life.

          A book that would blow The Secret out of the water. And if people actually read it and then applied what they learned, their life would do a complete 180. But people always want [what they think] is the quick fix. So I would lose 95% at the "apply what you learn" part.

          Mind sharing that book.

          The OP was dead in the water before he even got to the "I found someone cheaper" comment. He was fighting an uphill battle before he even contacted this person for the first time.

          I didn't want to be that blunt, but that was the 1st thought when I read his post. Didn't have a chance in He!!

          But few people can pick up on that. Because there is so much more going on beneath the surface. Stuff that you'll never see unless you have a firm understanding of the proper mindset needed in order to succeed.
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          • Profile picture of the author Vagabond 007
            My comments to your comments.

            Originally Posted by AP View Post

            Hit the friggin nail on the head. Let me tell you, even 20 clients at $1,497 month will wear you out, unless you have systems in place.
            I agree.

            If I had 100 business owners I'd quit the biz.
            But AP, if they were all paying you $297 a month you'd be rich! :rolleyes:


            My clients that pay me $1,497+ month rarely call me. In fact, the higher paying clients call the least. The small clients who pay me less than $500 are my Biggest PITA.
            I just had this conversation with another member via email. He gives his clients his cell number but he said they rarely call.

            Reminds me of something I read from Yanik Silver many years ago. He took his Aston Martin in for service and the service manager at the dealership asked him what kind of rental car he wanted. Yanik said he didn't care.

            The service manager commented on how the people with the nicer (read...expensive cars!) didn't care what rental car they got. But, the people with the regular cars insisted they get a nice rental car.


            I'm raising their fees by over $1,000 January 1, hoping they'll Fire me.
            Nice.

            Many don't realize this, but choosing who you DON'T work with is just as important as choosing who you do work with.


            Everyone spends too much time reading about SEO, PPC, PPV, Website design, Auto responders, etc... when they should be reading books by the Masters.

            Read the books below and you'll know more than 99% of all small biz owners hands down.

            Start with these:
            You mentioned one of Dan Kennedy's books, but I'll add to it...read every book he has written. Get his whole No B.S. series.

            Positioning is CRITICAL. I never call a prospect. I'll send mail, but never call. They must call me, then I will have a 15 min interview to see if "I want them as MY client." They "think" they are interviewing me, when in reality I am interviewing them.
            Story time.

            In a past life I was a mortgage broker. Before I knew a damn thing about marketing I "smiled and dialed". Always chasing deals. Not making a lot on those deals when I did happen to get them.

            When I realized something had to change (you know what they say the definition of insanity is), I set out to learn marketing.

            I then positioned myself as the go to guy when someone needed to refinance and had bad credit (niche). I used direct mail to generate leads. Directed them to my free recorded message (making them jump through hoops) or to visit my website. My website had testimonials (social proof). Then THEY would CALL me.

            I had people thanking me up and down when I returned their calls. Hah! I was just doing my job.

            After I gathered their info on the phone, I would run some numbers and see if I could help them.

            If I could, THEY came into MY office and I then explained to them the benefits of doing business with me and had them sign papers. Most mortgage people either did everything over the phone or they went to the homeowners house.

            The icing on the cake, I started making about 3-4 times as much money. Why, because I was confident in my abilities to help them and because I positioned myself properly by using effective marketing.


            I would guess 90% of the WF members know more about marketing than 90% of most small business owners, less than 1M in sales. I work with biz owners between 5-10 M that are complete morons. My dog could run their business better.
            I agree.

            I don't think people here realize how ignorant business owners are when it comes to effective marketing.

            They spend most of their money on going after new clients and ignoring their past customers. Getting new customers costs at least 5 times more than selling to an old ones. So as Dan Kennedy puts it, you need to put a fence around your herd.


            It all comes back to mindset.

            Bingo! IMHO nothing is more important. This is a key element to success in any business. Watch Donald Trump, think he has the right mindset?
            As I said, I wish the self improvement part of this forum was more active.

            I could write an entire book on mindset and how it governs your entire life.

            A book that would blow The Secret out of the water. And if people actually read it and then applied what they learned, their life would do a complete 180. But people always want [what they think] is the quick fix. So I would lose 95% at the "apply what you learn" part.

            Mind sharing that book.
            It hasn't been written yet.

            For now it's one of those things that sits on my hard drive and I add bits and pieces to it from time to time. One day, when I make the time, I'll organize it all and finish it.

            If you want a great book to read on mindset, read "Beyond Positive Thinking." My favorite book. Another good book that deals with self image, you probably heard of it, is "Psycho Cybernetics".

            I didn't want to be that blunt, but that was the 1st thought when I read his post. Didn't have a chance in He!!
            I'd rather tell people what they NEED to hear instead of what they WANT to hear. They usually get offended at first.

            One day they'll realize I was right. "Change, before you have to."
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            • Profile picture of the author Lance K
              I could write an entire book on mindset and how it governs your entire life.

              A book that would blow The Secret out of the water. And if people actually read it and then applied what they learned, their life would do a complete 180. But people always want [what they think] is the quick fix. So I would lose 95% at the "apply what you learn" part.

              Mind sharing that book.
              Psycho-Cybernetics But something tells me that you've already read it (being a Dan Kennedy fan and all).
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              "You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want."
              ~ Zig Ziglar
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              • Profile picture of the author Vagabond 007
                Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

                Psycho-Cybernetics But something tells me that you've already read it (being a Dan Kennedy fan and all).
                I edited my post, most likely after your post.

                But I added that book to my post above. Yes, I have read it. Great book!
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            • Profile picture of the author Lance K
              Originally Posted by Vagabond 007 View Post

              If you want a great book to read on mindset, read "Beyond Positive Thinking." My favorite book. Another good book that deals with self image, you probably heard of it, is "Psycho Cybernetics".
              Oops...I see Vagabond 007 already mentioned it. Can't mention it enough though, IMO.
              Signature
              "You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want."
              ~ Zig Ziglar
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        • Profile picture of the author NewbiesDiary
          Originally Posted by Vagabond 007 View Post

          You need to read actual books on marketing. You need to learn how to position yourself properly. You need to learn how to pre-qualify clients. This is all stuff you won't learn on here...I never see it talked about.

          I guarantee I can walk into any business and tell them exactly what to do in order to increase their profits that day! As AP said, it's not that hard. Even if you are a complete newbie, I could give you a list of a few books to read and once you read them you could do the same thing....walk into any business and show them ways to make more money.
          I'd love to take a look at your list of required reading - if you'd care to share, am always looking for more to read.
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          • Profile picture of the author Vagabond 007
            Originally Posted by NewbiesDiary View Post

            I'd love to take a look at your list of required reading - if you'd care to share, am always looking for more to read.
            I learned most of marketing knowledge from Dan Kennedy. So I always recommend his books. He has a series of No B.S. books you should pick up. You should also get a copy of his Magnetic Marketing kit.

            Jay Abraham has some good stuff out there.

            For pricing, read a book called "How To Sell At Prices Higher Than Your Competitors".

            Of course "Think and Grow Rich".

            There is more, but the above is enough to get someone started.
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      • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
        Originally Posted by TJ Kazunga View Post

        Michae, nice post and impressive CV - it must be rewarding work.

        But as you pointed out, what you do is orders of magnitude beyond the WSO "offline niche". End of the day, most people realistically won't t be able to do what you do, or even want to - but they could still build a strong income offering web services, PPC management, video marketing, SEO etc and build up a good size business.

        Talking of video marketing, check out Online Video Production, Advertising and Distribution &mdash; TurnHere Internet Video - that is building a significant business out of one service that many warriors can do - I think that they do over 1,000 videos a month, for less than a grand a video. Just another example of a successful company based on selling a valuable and affordable service at volume.

        With the right planning and investing in the right systems, one could build a million dollar company offering these "cheap" services, it's been done before and will be done again, time after time.

        High end consulting sounds cool, but so does having hundreds of small businesses as clients and making a mint that way!

        Obviously you can tell where I've placed my bets - it would be interesting to get your thoughts on building a successful marketing business aimed at at providing affordable services to small businesses.

        And if you do get round to writing your WSO I would be interested - always keen to learn and develop from others who have found success in their field.
        TJ, I also have small business clients. I'm not exclusively a jet setter.

        One guy I am working with at present does video surveillance installation and maintenance contracts. He's at maybe $500K a year in sales.

        Another company I worked with earlier this year was a landscaping services client. They are the rebirth of a larger firm that went bankrupt and was bought out of receivership by another investor who hired me to help put a strong marketing program in place.

        So it's not all big deals - in fact, I used to always strive for a nice, balanced mix.

        Too many big deals in the pipeline and you stretch your cash flow pretty thin waiting on longer sales cycles to close with multiple layers of decision-making. Too many large deals also require more resources, which requires more operating capital outlay in the midst of executing contracts until the receivable gets paid. Then, there's always the fantastic waiting period while big client accounts payable departments stretch their cash flow by holding off on paying you for 60 or 90 days - because they know that they can get away with it and you'll be happy to get paid when they get around to it. Plus, if you lose a major account, you lose a substantial chunk of your revenue, so it's a very risky proposition. If you have one major account, you absolutely need two - and then force your resources to double up their efforts as much as they can without losing them. Plan your overhead based on just a single major account though - that way you're always working hard to keep up, but if you lose one, you're still in business.

        So to answer your question about my thoughts on building a successful marketing consulting practice, having small deals in the mix is quite necessary for cash flow balance.

        HOWEVER, it's just as risky to have nothing but small clients because they will nickel and dime you to death. They require just as many administrative resources to manage all the back office side (accounting, etc...) for less revenue and less profit. It takes the same effort to manage a small account as it does a large one.

        The up-side is that if you lose one, it doesn't dent your revenue quite as badly.

        As for a WSO - I dunno if there will ever be one or not. I love marketing and helping business develop. I am a serial entrepreneur, and I have a passion for it. I hang out in the WF because it IS one of the better marketing forums on the web - although the average member is a few school grade levels behind me. But that's okay because I do like to help out wherever I can with those who exhibit teachable moments. I am also learning about myself in the process because running around with the venture capital level folks for so long created a gap in my own communication and worldview with the street-level hustle. So I am learning to bring it down to basic levels while still looking for potential entry points.

        Maybe I'll just produce a fun marketing show that just teaches everything for free and rates existing marketing products and services.

        Who knows... only the shadow knows...
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      • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
        Instead of trying to think of clever comeback lines you may want to think through what's wrong with your sales process.

        There are 2 key areas here:

        # 1 If you build genuine rapport and trust with a business owner they may talk to other web designers etc but they'll trust you.

        That is a huge part of getting hired.

        If you take the time to get to know a business owner and his business and create a customized solution then it's difficult or impossible for the business owner to compare what you'll do with what someone else will do.


        # 2 Before you talk about price you need to establish the approximate dollar value of the solution you provide.

        If you have a list of prices for your services advertised anywhere or if you're giving people estimates etc before you establish the dollar value of a project then you're making your service a commodity (like a can of beans from the store).

        It's your fault if a prospect finds a cheaper can of beans from another store and decides to buy there...you categorized yourself as a commodity.

        On the other hand if you take the time to get to know a business and the business owner, provide a customized solution and work with the business owner to get him to estimate the potential increase in profits for him from that solution then you've created a completely different situation.

        Your prospect will see that your solution is an investment with a return and it's a unique solution no one else is offering.



        Prospects can and will be stupid but a lot of the time it's because you've failed to educate them effectively.

        When you put your focus on being a good advisor to your prospects and clients and take the time to make sure your marketing and sales process is educating your prospects and clients effectively you'll find a much higher percentage of people hiring you and hiring you over and over again.

        And they'll also happily pay premium fees when they do it.

        Kindest regards,
        Andrew Cavanagh
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      • Profile picture of the author MADULALI
        AP has some very valuable points.

        Here's my take...

        First off, if someone is bickering about the price then my many years as a brick and mortar business owner, sales person etc. tells me that they can not afford your services at this time. Everything else is just a smoke screen.

        **One quick point is that you can put them in a tickler file and contact every 3 months until they either buy, die or tell you to get lost.

        Now back to AJ's point: when you first get started in marketing, one of the first thing that you learn is to develop an USP (Unique Selling Proposition)

        So, my question I ask of you is what is your USP? Why should any business owner pay your price? What makes you different then the buy that will build a website for $100, $10 etc?

        Here's an example of what I mean...

        Many years ago when I was starting out in sales, I was selling insurance and investments.

        Against the advice of successful people who were selling insurance and investments, I decided to go after the low hanging fruit (People who did not have any insurance.)

        It was easy to get a client....but....the first time they had any financial challenges (usually after the first month) they would drop the insurance. Or if someone would offer them an insurance policy for $1 less then they would drop my policy to get the cheaper policy.

        After all, all "insurance salesmen" were the same. At least in their mine.

        In this example, I did not have a USP. I was strictly competing on price. And if you ever try to compete on price along, you will lose.

        As a business principle...very few business can substain a business by being the cheapest in town. (Exception...WalMart etc. Notice, no other company has duplicated WalMart's success)

        So, after going back to the drawing board and developing a USP. I started targeting clients that already had insurance policies and investments.

        Very soon, I became a 'trusted advisor' to them and was no longer referred to as "the insurance guy".

        When I was referred by them to their family and friends, I was the financial advisor that was taking care of their financial investment needs. (Insurance so happen to a part of that equation...so was having a will which was outsourced to an attorney that specialized in wills, and I was paid a marketing fee)

        So, as offliners, look to set yourself apart from other 'web design' guys and offer to provide them a solution...which is to increase their business of which providing a website, autoresponder etc. maybe part of that solutions.


        Expect Abundance,

        Michael
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        • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
          Originally Posted by MADULALI View Post

          As a business principle...very few business can sustain a business by being the cheapest in town. (Exception...WalMart etc. Notice, no other company has duplicated WalMart's success)
          Putting a hammer to this nail, even WalMart is having trouble being purely the low price store. Yes, they still stress low prices in their advertising. But if you go into a WalMart and wander around, you'll see that they are upgrading several product lines and adding higher margin items. As a couple of examples, they've expanded their electronic departments quite a bit, and they are going to carry their own line of wines.

          My wife works for WalMart, and she sees what's coming down the pipeline. From what I've heard from her, the future is going to be bringing people in the door with lowest-price commodities and selling them higher end stuff once they're inside.

          As a business consultant, one way to do something similar is to provide plenty of education (free white papers, low cost seminars, teleseminars, etc.). As the OP has learned to his chagrin, that low-price entry should not be your primary offer, or you will get burned.
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          • Profile picture of the author Buildingfutures
            Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

            My wife works for WalMart, and she sees what's coming down the pipeline. From what I've heard from her, the future is going to be bringing people in the door with lowest-price commodities and selling them higher end stuff once they're inside.
            Speaking of commodities, if you go to Wal-Mart online they sell caskets, if you search for caskets at walmart.com.

            They really do sell everything to everyone at every price. I wouldn't be surprised if they start carrying caskets, cars, and even have their own gravesites out back for people.

            "Momma always did love her some wal-mart, now she can be here alla time."
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            • Profile picture of the author Lincoln Ryan
              Banned
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      • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Morgan
        I usually say something like, "well, it sounds like you've found what you're looking for and I wish you luck on the project".

        Who do you think they call when the $450 website guy screws them over?
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        Jeremy Morgan, Software Developer / SEO
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    • Profile picture of the author Vagabond 007
      I posted a new thread on this topic. Kind of sums up what a few of us have been talking about here.

      Here is the thread (click)
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      • Profile picture of the author Lance K
        I just picked up Dan Kennedy's No B.S. direct marketing book. Had no idea he had written that one. Should be a great read (as is all of Dan's stuff).

        I also grabbed a copy of Spin Selling while I was at it. Looking forward to that one as well.

        Thanks for the recommendations!
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  • Profile picture of the author ahlexis
    You want a comeback, so here's an interesting idea.

    Find that longtime control for the Wall Street Journal which begins with this famous opening narrative:

    On a beautiful late spring afternoon, twenty-five years ago, two young men graduated from the same college. They were very much alike, these two young men.

    Both went to work for the same company and 25 years later, one was manager of "a small department" and the other its president.
    Get to know that letter inside and out. And then get crackin' writing a parallel letter that explains to the potential client:

    How hiring you is so much better for their business than hiring that web designer who is not familiar with the inner workings of small business marketing. Explain in your letter how the business that hires a web designer based solely on price and thinks that they are saving money is actually losing the opportunity not only to grow but grow exponentially and have their business explode with customers due to the marketing knowledge they will not have implemented in their business. Teach then that marketing is more than a web page, that getting to the top of Google means absolutely nothing if it does not add dollars directly to their bottom line.

    A lot of business owners get caught up in the "get a good deal" category and forget why they need a website in the first place. It's not to be able to point out to their customers that they are up to date and have a website, but to increase their bottom line by building a relationship with their customers that makes the customer open their wallets wide to them due to feeling a much stronger desire to do business with them.

    Let your potential client know that it used to be yellow page advertising that drove customers to their door, today it's the internet and a properly set up web site, and ten years from now it just might be something else that the other web site designer will have no clue about. But with you, they don't get a website designer, they get a marketing consultant who happens to speak geek and is able to drive customers through their door and add dollars to their bottom line. Ten years from now that other website designer that doesn't understand marketing is going to be out looking for work, or going back to school to learn something else while you more than likely will still be able to help that client continue to drive customers through the door using techniques that will add directly to their bottom line and put cash in their bank account.

    Why? Because you are not a website designer. You are a marketer.
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  • Profile picture of the author billionareHuman
    The Last place I look is Internet marketing. Plus clients don't really understand this. In addition they get bombed by SEO people, Reach Local, etc...
    But you hang out on an IM forum?
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    • Profile picture of the author AP
      [DELETED]
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      • Profile picture of the author Charles Harper
        Man, I am never on here anymore and I get caught by this thread...

        AP...If Kern, Filsaime, you and Brunson study under other mentors, who are THEY?

        Charles


        Originally Posted by AP View Post

        This forum also has some great copywriters and people who know how to Market.

        Frank Kern, Mike Filsaime, Russel Brunson are NOT IM'ers. The sooner people understand this the sooner you'll get your act together.

        They all study under the same mentors I have. I see them at the conventions, the weekend seminars, etc... they have all the internet skills needed.

        They are looking for ways to Market themselves better.

        They can hire the best people on the planet for SEO, PPC, split-testing, etc... internet skills have nothing to do with making money via the internet.

        You can follow guys like John McCabe, DogScout, Michael Hiles, Vagabond 007, etc... trust me, they know what their talking about.

        Why are they here?
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    I'll add that they need to read books on BUSINESS... if nothing else to understand business mindsets (and maybe accidently turn their efforts into one as well).

    Some favorite books on my shelf....

    The E-Myth - Michael Gerber
    The Marketing Imagination - Ted Levitt
    Differentiate Or Die - Jack Trout
    The Toyota Way - Jeff Liker
    The Manager's Guide To Competitive Marketing Strategies - Norton Paley
    Spin Selling - Neil Rackham
    Personal Styled & Effective Performance - Merrill & Reed
    New Venture Strategies - Karl H. Vesper
    Selling Your Services - Robert Bly
    See You At The Top - Zig Ziglar
    The Magic Of THinking Big - David Schwartz
    Crossing The Chasm - Geoffrey Moore
    Atlas Shrugged - Ayn Rand
    Marketing High Technology - William Davidow
    The Art of Worldy Wisdom - Balthasar Gracian
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  • Profile picture of the author bobmcalister
    Michael

    have to admit , I jumped the gun before reading all of your posts. I apologize. The irritating part of this discussion was in the past vague references made to making money offline with no specifics. My main problem is making the contacts you seem to have all ready in place. I seem to be going in circles , and not producing the income you guys have.

    Quite frankly , I dont think that I would have responded to my post as you did.

    Once again , I apologize.
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    • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
      Originally Posted by bobmcalister View Post

      Michael

      have to admit , I jumped the gun before reading all of your posts. I apologize. The irritating part of this discussion was in the past vague references made to making money offline with no specifics. My main problem is making the contacts you seem to have all ready in place. I seem to be going in circles , and not producing the income you guys have.

      Quite frankly , I dont think that I would have responded to my post as you did.

      Once again , I apologize.
      It's quite alright Bob. No apologies necessary among friends. You have to consider that I have been in the internet business for 15 years, and in business as an entrepreneur for even longer. So I am not starting out here. It's been a full career.

      As for my response, my resume is openly available for the world on LinkedIn.com, so it's not like I am shouting secrets here.

      Yes, you have hit the nail... having contacts is tantamount to B2B services success. Once you have a big network, finding opportunities gets a lot easier because you have success stories and references and people hear about what's happening in a region through chamber events, etc...

      I will let you in on a secret that's NOT in my resume... actually 2 of them.

      One of my best friends in the whole world started a venture capital networking club called the Miami Valley Venture Association, based in Dayton, Ohio, when I was 19. I got to meet a heck of a lot of people that I otherwise would have never associated with through the MVVA.

      I strongly suggest finding and joining your area venture club.

      The second secret is that when I started my web development company, I took an assistant manager's position at a Kinko's Copy Center (now called FedEx Kinko's) as a strategic job. Strategic because I was newly married and we needed the health insurance, and I had access to all the production equipment for proposals, etc... I worked 2nd & 3rd shift to leave my days open for the web business. The unexpected benefit was that every small business in a major metro area uses a Kinko's at some time or another, and I got to meet all of them.
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    • Profile picture of the author Charles Harper
      Great post!

      "It ain't the age, it's the mileage" - Indiana Jones in Raiders of the Lost Ark

      I recently read a book called "Outliers", by Malcolm Gladwell (which I recommend) and it changed my whole perception on Internet Marketing. It seems that the ultra successful like Bill Gates or the Beatles even, did not get to where they are strictly by chance.

      It seems that before you get to the path of long term success, there was a seperation point. And it is that typically that there is a period of learning their craft that takes 10,000 hours of preparation. They didn't just jump up and get there.

      So I am not sure where you are in the continuum toward 10,000 to gain the supra-competence, but you are likely to get there because you are still working at it, and by your post willing to retrench and restart when something is not working.

      I don't think it is a matter of how long somebody has been in this game or space. But you do have to pile up the experiences, fail fast and hard, learn from them and reapply until you get to where you want to be. I think THAT is the challenge for all of us who are still "on the way".

      Originally Posted by bobmcalister View Post

      Michael

      have to admit , I jumped the gun before reading all of your posts. I apologize. The irritating part of this discussion was in the past vague references made to making money offline with no specifics. My main problem is making the contacts you seem to have all ready in place. I seem to be going in circles , and not producing the income you guys have.

      Quite frankly , I dont think that I would have responded to my post as you did.

      Once again , I apologize.
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  • Profile picture of the author AnneM86
    Even though I am new to both the forum and IM, I did run a plant hire company for over 3 years and was the marketing manager for the same company for 2 years before that.
    The problem was that the owner of the company wanted us to rent machines out at a much higher rate than what other company's offered, however, we still were number one in the market for one simple reason, added value.

    Consider that we had over 100 machines with operators for each and being a woman can often make things difficult (especially if you are young) in the construction business. But I knew my stuff, loved the biz and clients came to me because they knew I would move mountains to keep my word and help them. It was simple for them, they would rather pay me sometimes double than other rates (and this was no small amount of money because we are talking about contracts over 100k) because they knew that in the end they would get better value because of a much lower amount of downtime. I always made sure the repair crew was on call 24/7 and that we had replacement machines in the worst case scenario.

    Oh, I got the "you are so expensive I am going to go somewhere else" line so often it isn't funny. But they still ended up coming back because they knew they could call me up and I would help them even if i didn't have the equipment they needed by giving them info on where they could find it, or if it was an emergency then I would give them a machine for a few hours in the evenings when I could pull it off a job for a few hours. I had huge contractors (people like Bechtel) telling me that they only call other companies if I didn't have anything available to help them.

    They also love the fact that even though I was the managing director I would still go out to all the sites to meet everyone and make sure everything was cool. Sometimes you will find that the site manager is more crucial to your contract than the GM.

    ooops, I have to go, but this post was just to mention that the most important thing is perceived value rather than price. Go the extra mile for them and people will beat a path to your door.
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    • Profile picture of the author Vagabond 007
      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

      I'll add that they need to read books on BUSINESS... if nothing else to understand business mindsets (and maybe accidently turn their efforts into one as well).

      Some favorite books on my shelf....

      The E-Myth - Michael Gerber
      The Marketing Imagination - Ted Levitt
      Differentiate Or Die - Jack Trout
      The Toyota Way - Jeff Liker
      The Manager's Guide To Competitive Marketing Strategies - Norton Paley
      Spin Selling - Neil Rackham
      Personal Styled & Effective Performance - Merrill & Reed
      New Venture Strategies - Karl H. Vesper
      Selling Your Services - Robert Bly
      See You At The Top - Zig Ziglar
      The Magic Of THinking Big - David Schwartz
      Crossing The Chasm - Geoffrey Moore
      Atlas Shrugged - Ayn Rand
      Marketing High Technology - William Davidow
      The Art of Worldy Wisdom - Balthasar Gracian
      Thanks for sharing.

      I heard many great things about Atlas Shrugged. I will have to pick up a copy.

      I loved Spin Selling.

      Originally Posted by bobmcalister View Post

      Michael

      have to admit , I jumped the gun before reading all of your posts. I apologize.

      Once again , I apologize.
      Takes a man to own up to his mistakes and apologize. Glad to see you say that to Michael.

      Originally Posted by Paul McQuillan View Post

      I would just like to thank Michael Hiles, Vagabond and AP for some great insight and inspiration.

      I am more and more interested in offline and you people are spilling
      some gold nuggets into my pan.

      thanks!
      No problem. Glad I could help out. I love reading AP and Michael's posts as well...I usually pick up a nugget or two myself.

      If you're curious about something, ask away. I'll do my best to help.
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  • Profile picture of the author Taylor French
    Originally Posted by Christian Sawyer View Post

    Hey guys!

    So, if any of you do offline work I am sure that you get some cheap customers who tell you in a phone call that your proposed price is too steep and that they have found someone else. Well that has happened to me again, but this time I thought I would share it with the forum and put a twist on it.

    So here is some background info...

    I get a potential client, a referred one at that, so I think it is in the bag. I do my pre-consultation and all that great stuff. I then send him over a proposal, which simply breaks down as follows:


    Module 1: Website Package - $1200

    Includes 5 page website with custom design, all content, copy for all of his products, paypal integration, newsletter integration, the works basically...


    Module 2: Marketing - $800

    I offered a marketing package to send some highly targeted visitors to his website, mainly by the use of high ranking blogs in Google.


    Module 3: Maintenance - $600 ($50/month for a year)

    This package include all necessary changes to the website, tweaks to the marketing package, and updated content for the blogs, etc...


    I send this over and get a call back after the weekend saying that they have found someone else. Me being curious asked, "How much are you paying the other guy and what are you getting?"

    He explained that we was getting "the works", a full website package + marketing for $450!

    I was shocked to say the least!

    I thanked him for his time and hung up the phone, but the dark side of me wanted to say something back to him...

    Now, before I ask the question that this thread is really about, let me say this. I would never actually be impolite to a potential client, so this thread is a JOKE!

    Here is the question...

    What would be your best comeback, against one of these cheap clients if you could say it without repercussion?

    I'll start off with mine...

    This is more of a long term comeback, but it is great! I would wait until the other guy finished the website and call the client again pretending to be a different marketing firm. I would say, "Hi, this is David from so and so marketing firm, I see that you have a home built website...did you do that yourself?"



    Let's hear what you guys have to say!

    Best wishes,
    -Christian
    I would give him my business card and tell him, "When the other guy fails to deliver, leaves your website in shambles, or delivers no traffic to it, give me a call. Thanks for your time, and I look forward to hearing from you later."

    But that's just me.

    Reminds me of a story I heard about a small town barber shop that had a big mega chain hair salon move in across the street and put up a sign that said, "$5 haircuts!"

    Knowing they couldn't possibly compete at that price, the barber shop put up a sign that said, "We fix $5 haircuts!" I hear they got a ton of business.
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  • Profile picture of the author sdentrepreneur
    I personally stopped trading time for money. It's a 1099 Internet World, I don't rely on Brick and Mortar businesses any more. They are all cash strapped and don't understand the value of great website design and marketing.
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    • Profile picture of the author AP
      Originally Posted by sdentrepreneur View Post

      I personally stopped trading time for money. It's a 1099 Internet World, I don't rely on Brick and Mortar businesses any more. They are all cash strapped and don't understand the value of great website design and marketing.

      That is such a misnomer. I hate when people say that.

      If they are so cash strapped why are they spending thousands of dollars on Yellow Page advertising?

      Cash strapped my a$$

      I have a prospect I just met with 2 weeks ago. His company did 7M per year in 2006, now they are down to 5M in gross sales.

      Get this, he spends over $300,000 per year in every damn Yellow Pages, Yellow Book, etc... in his area.

      $300,000

      He spends another $50,000 on Local Cable TV commercials.

      About $50,000 on Radio spots.

      Another $50,000 on complete crap like sponsoring Bowling teams, youth baseball (sorry), newspaper ads, etc...

      He doesn't TEST or TRACK any of this. Nada. Doesn't have a CLUE.

      10% of his revenue $500,000 is spent on Garbage.

      Don't tell me companies don't have money.

      Let me prove it to you.

      Do you have a Yellow Page book? Open it up. Those full size ads in Los Angeles, New York, Chicago, Dallas, Boston, etc... can cost upwards of $10,000 per Month for Lawyers, Plumbers, Doctors, etc...

      I deal with these customers on a weekly basis.

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      • Profile picture of the author JustVisiting
        Originally Posted by AP View Post

        That is such a misnomer. I hate when people say that.

        If they are so cash strapped why are they spending thousands of dollars on Yellow Page advertising?

        Cash strapped my a$$

        I have a prospect I just met with 2 weeks ago. His company did 7M per year in 2006, now they are down to 5M in gross sales.

        Get this, he spends over $300,000 per year in every damn Yellow Pages, Yellow Book, etc... in his area.

        $300,000

        He spends another $50,000 on Local Cable TV commercials.

        About $50,000 on Radio spots.

        Another $50,000 on complete crap like sponsoring Bowling teams, youth baseball (sorry), newspaper ads, etc...

        He doesn't TEST or TRACK any of this. Nada. Doesn't have a CLUE.

        10% of his revenue $500,000 is spent on Garbage.

        Don't tell me companies don't have money.

        Let me prove it to you.

        Do you have a Yellow Page book? Open it up. Those full size ads in Los Angeles, New York, Chicago, Dallas, Boston, etc... can cost upwards of $10,000 per Month for Lawyers, Plumbers, Doctors, etc...

        I deal with these customers on a weekly basis.

        Hey AP

        You're giving away the farm now
        Most people have no idea how to prospect. But I wonder how many will actually read this one post and realize it is solid gold. If they can actually be bothered to take action and start prospecting...but sadly the majority will not. Guess they are too scared to send out a letter and and then pick up the phone.
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        • Profile picture of the author AP
          Originally Posted by JustVisiting View Post

          Hey AP

          You're giving away the farm now
          Most people have no idea how to prospect. But I wonder how many will actually read this one post and realize it is solid gold. If they can actually be bothered to take action and start prospecting...but sadly the majority will not. Guess they are too scared to send out a letter and and then pick up the phone.

          I can only cover one city in one state. I would welcome my client to talk to anyone other than me.

          Gary Halbert once said when he needed another yacht he simply wrote a letter. John Lennon said when he needed another Mansion he simply wrote another song. I love those statements.

          I have tweaked, tested, and tracked all my mailings. Swiped the best material available from the Collier, Ogilvy, Hopkins, etc...

          My letters get the phone to ring. Last week I did a mailer for a friend of mine in the offline market. Trying to get his feet wet with me mentoring.

          We only sent 100 letters, invitational style, 3 pages, and got 8 prospects to call him. 8% on the first mailing of 3 is very good. Total cost was a whopping $100. Gee, this offline is so hard. :rolleyes:

          All he had to to was answer the phone. Guess what happened?

          We always mail on Saturday because we want mail to arrive on Tuesday or Wednesday if possible. He received 2 calls on Monday (the post office was actually fast, lol) and he called me in a panic. He said, "what should I do." I said answer the darn phone and talk to them with the Initial pre-qualifying questionnaire that I gave you. We role played for 2 hours that previous Sunday.

          A miracle happened. He actually contacted these two prospects, pre-qualified them like I had taught him, and then he sent them a (6) page questionnaire that I use. Both prospects completed my questionnaire and faxed them back. He is following up in person at their office next week.

          I told him what I would normally charge for these clients. $4,997 initial setup and $1,497 per month. Now he's fighting me, argh! He wants to go lower, much lower. $1,497 upfront and $497 a month. I told him if he goes in with that price he may actually LOSE the deal. The client is expecting to pay way more and he may question his credibility.

          I wouldn't be surprised if he loses both deals.

          This is why I don't mentor or do a WSO.
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        • Profile picture of the author Always-A-Warrior
          Originally Posted by JustVisiting View Post

          Hey AP

          You're giving away the farm now
          Most people have no idea how to prospect. But I wonder how many will actually read this one post and realize it is solid gold. If they can actually be bothered to take action and start prospecting...but sadly the majority will not. Guess they are too scared to send out a letter and and then pick up the phone.
          so true. people want to make big money but are afraid of large numbers. I live on a small island where everyone knows each other so that makes it easy for me to get customers on a call or face2face meetings.
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    The biggest "marketing guys" aren't even in the same game as Filsaime, Kern, Kennedy, Abraham, etc...

    There are major marketing players that spend several million dollars to simply TEST something.

    Folks like SAMI/Burke, etc...

    You have to realize that in the entire world of marketing, Dan Kennedy or Jay Abraham are tiny in comparison to some of these people.

    AP, you asked what guys like me are doing here. I can only speak for myself, after deciding to come out of semi-retirement last year, I started hanging out here because I am as much a software guy as a marketing guy. It's an interesting dichotomy to be an engineer and also a marketing specialists... a dynamic that Perry Marshall can understand. The WF is one of the better marketing forums on the internet, and I've learned just as much about myself over the past several months by simply observing and interacting with folks that have a lot of desire, and are starting out their climb at the mountain base.

    I don't do the seminar scene very much. Maybe I need to get out a bit but I've always found it to be more of an excuse for guys to get away from their wives and drink for the weekend - and that's not really my cup of tea.
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  • Profile picture of the author Popstar
    There's something else to consider.

    To IMers, having a website is one of the most important things in the world. To most small business owners, it's a distraction... something they're doing because they've been told they need a "web presence."

    Their priorities are health care costs, hiring issues, taxes, government regs and things of that nature.

    That's why they price-shop for a website and that's why it's a commodity to them.

    You need to look at the situation from their points of view and their priorities, not your own. Then you might realize that just selling websites is a service that will only go down in price over time, not likely up. Especially with all the Wordpress and other 1-click website solutions that are available these days.
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  • Profile picture of the author service51
    I think I would say "Please feel free to call me when it fails to convert"
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    Email:- speclift@gmail.com
    Skype:- service511 - Phone:- (044) 01926 888506
    http://obepro.com/steverowlands
    Washy Direct Boot Camp http://budurl.com/p3yk

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  • Profile picture of the author DogScout
    What am I doing here?
    stop learning and start dying
    stop helping stop living.

    (Besides, I am a newbie)

    It is funny. So many in the 'real world' don't know who Kennedy, Abraham, Kern or PM are; most don't even care. When you start talking size, by many standards they are tiny. By Michael or AP's, I am tiny. Other then our family, friends and clients, I am sure no one cares who or what or how well any of us do. You won't see any of us on the next edition of Entertainment Tonight or with Brian Williams on the evening news.

    This thread was about selling marketing services to brick and mortar companies. There is a ton of great info and experience in here. This isn't a contest. Everyone has they're own way of doing things driven by different reasons. We seem to market as differently as we do everything else; but the common thread is, none of us sell 'things'. Sell results. when you sell results then that company spending 300,000 a year on yellow pages (that no one reads anymore) spend more with you and less with them.
    When you sell a keyword (or 5) on page 1 of Google, someone will do it cheaper or present it in a way that the client pays more than what you were charging. Here's the thing. Is that keyword(s) even going to bring in any business? what percent of those that Google 'Dry cleaning' are college students researching a paper? They aren't buying anything. So while someone undercuts you, they simultaneously screw the customer.

    What do I know? Not a damn thing.
    There are so many 'SEO' companies with people that graduated in '96 or '03 that do not come to forums and listen to guys like Hiles and AP and these people are running SEO campaigns for businesses AND they don't even know what a Goggle slap is! They never even heard of 'off-page optimization' let alone how to direct market off the internet. They test nothing. They are 'marketers'. Marketer=someone on salary with NO accountability. Market all you want, if it doesn't lead to a sale, it is useless. That is a commodity. (OK, so I do know one thing, that being that I don't know. OK 2 things, the other is I know how to find out, come to forums like this one to learn and test, test, test, Lol).

    Nissan markets...Toyota sells! That is no accident. Nissan buys high priced marketing teams that have focus groups and brainstorm ideas. Great. Toyota tests and they test everything. Ask a Nissan rep how much he knows, he'll tell you. Ask a Toyota rep how much he knows, he'll say 'let me get back with you on that after I test it.' I Wonder why Toyota sells 10 times as many cars as Nissan?

    All said, I really appreciate what I have learned in this thread. The fact Michael & AP make a lot more than I do doesn't even come into play for me. I could easily target a 'higher' or 'larger' clientele than I do. Fact is, I don't want to. I get as much out of seeing a 1-5 man operation suddenly not have to worry about folding as I do getting my pittance of a check. My clients usually don't have anything but a single line in the yellow pages to begin with. Most are 90 days out of bankruptcy anyway. Turn one of them around and the feeling you get knowing you saved 1-5 guys their jobs is worth more (to me) than they could ever pay. But without learning from everyone of the people here, I could never do that. I'd eventually become a 'marketer'. I know this is a 'marketing' forum, but it isn't really. It is a sales forum. No one sucessfull here is doing any marketing that isn't results driven.

    Mark
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    • Profile picture of the author Blase
      DogScout,

      You are so far from a newbie, it's like
      like saying a sun rise and a sunset are
      the same thing.

      Your Nissan vs Toyota comment reminded
      me of a Chevy trucks ad. If you are old
      like me you will remember it.

      It was the one that started the
      "Heartbeat of America" tagline.

      It had the music and stars and all
      the really "good" ad stuff. It won
      advertising awards.

      I don't remember anymore but
      I think this was in the mid seventies.

      GM spent around 65 million on the campaign.
      Everybody knew the ad and was signing
      the tagline.

      GM's truck sales went down during
      and after that campaign.
      Signature
      "Nothing Happens Until Something Is Sold"
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    • Profile picture of the author skydivedad
      Originally Posted by DogScout View Post

      What am I doing here?
      stop learning and start dying
      stop helping stop living.

      I get as much out of seeing a 1-5 man operation suddenly not have to worry about folding as I do getting my pittance of a check. My clients usually don't have anything but a single line in the yellow pages to begin with. Most are 90 days out of bankruptcy anyway. Turn one of them around and the feeling you get knowing you saved 1-5 guys their jobs is worth more (to me) than they could ever pay. But without learning from everyone of the people here, I could never do that. I'd eventually become a 'marketer'. I know this is a 'marketing' forum, but it isn't really. It is a sales forum. No one sucessfull here is doing any marketing that isn't results driven.

      Mark
      Here's an excerpt from an email I received a few months back from the CEO of a long term client company. They did around 17 Million in 2008 with 45 employees. I was called in to resurrect this Michigan Companies New Product Launch. I had done several projects for them over the past several years but I hadn't heard from them in 8 months or so when they hired a Chicago "SEO Firm" to run a PPC campaign against the advice I had given them earlier. The Chicago company completely nuked the website and marketing and sales systems I had patiently put in place for them the previous 4 years.

      "Paul
      I can't Thank You enough for the tremendous work you put into designing and implementing the Reflective Insulation product series marketing plan and getting our online lead system back to a productive level. I just canceled the Retainer to Dickinson Wright to handle our firms potential Bankruptcy. I couldn't see us surviving past this year. Your encouragement and dedication to XXXXXXXXXX has made all the difference. We wouldn't be thriving like we are currently without the sales and margins we're getting from your program. Unfortunately we've also had to cut our work force but I'm hoping we can recall some of them in the course of the next few months. On behalf of myself and everyone here Thank You! I'm sending you the monies I had put aside to handle the Retainer as a Bonus ....."


      I received a nice check in the mail a few days later.

      He went on to give me a referral to a large Paint Manufacturer that saw the work I had done for another referral from this company for one of the largest Vinyl Siding manufacturers in the country. I didn't take the Paint Company project on after spending a few days at their corporate office, it included a 6 figure fee but it involved spending a considerable amount of time away from my family and the in-trenched executives seemed really inflexible. I would have been miserable! They seemed surprised I turned them down but everyone that knows me knew I wouldn't. It's not the money I'm interested in. It's being able to make a difference and working with people that feel the same way. It's funny when I stopped chasing money and concentrated on bringing unique value I started getting the larger accounts.

      On Edit: I wanted to share this book
      Guts & Borrowed Money  by Tom GillisGuts & Borrowed Money by Tom Gillis
      It's a great primer for all things about building and running a Small Business. A practical guidebook full of "Nuts and Bolts" Very Useful!
      All The Best
      Paul
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      Making Lemonaide... Skydivedad's Blog

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  • Profile picture of the author Cryp
    Loving this thread! Old timers and old dawgs keep the good stuff coming, im taking notes
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    • Profile picture of the author Blase
      Originally Posted by Cryp View Post

      Loving this thread! Old timers and old dawgs keep the good stuff coming, im taking notes

      Cryp,

      LOL!

      I am not saying this out of pride
      or to brag as a matter of fact it
      really bothers me.

      I have forgotten more about sales
      and marketing than a lot of people
      in the business know.

      That's why I can never work
      for somebody again.

      I would make a bad employee
      because I would have to take
      orders or direction from someone half
      may age that has never done or learned
      what I've forgotten.

      What's really nuts is I used to figure most
      business people know this stuff, but customers
      sit there with there mouths open, in amazement.

      At one of my all day seminars I actually
      had a a guy raise his hand at the end
      and ask me if I could talk for another
      hour about sales and marketing even though
      we were done.

      There was 55 people in the room and
      no one left for another hour.

      Again I am not trying to brag.
      It just shocks me how business people
      can spend so much money
      on something they know nothing about.
      Signature
      "Nothing Happens Until Something Is Sold"
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  • Profile picture of the author DogScout
    LOL,
    I do remember that. Great commercial if what you were after is entertainment. You are right, didn't sell any trucks; in fact seemed like it unsold a few. Lol.

    New to IM, New to helping tiny businesses keep their head above water.

    Been in SALES my whole life. Have a disdain for 'marketers'. Lol. Marketing is supposed to 'warm' a prospect up... start the journey through the sales funnel. In my sales carrer (I have sold both Nissans and Toyotas as well as soft drinks & beer) seems marketing has hurt as much as helped. When trying to sell something and you find you need to completely negate what a marketing campaign has done in order to achieve a sale, you can become jaded, I guess. When you find you have to do marketing's job before even beginning yours, it tends to give you different outlook.
    That is one reason doing your own thing is so great. It is easy to market when you know how the rest of the process needs to go. With 2 seperate entities, marketing by folks that can't (or won't) sell can be little help and really screw a sale.
    Enjoy the sunset.
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Why am I here?

      I've been around the block a few times, but I haven't been around your block yet. More plainly...

      "Ain't none of us as smart as all of us."

      DogScout, I have to agree with you about 'marketers' as you've defined them. If marketing begins and ends with pretty ads and clever jingles, it likely doesn't help much. If it makes promises the business isn't willing or able to keep, it can kill the company.

      I tend to take a much wider view of marketing for small businesses. Pretty much, it's all marketing. From the absence of litter and fresh-painted lines in the parking lot to the clean windows, well-trained staff, effective telephone answering, lead generation, customer loyalty, clean service bays, fresh coffee in the waiting room, you name it. It's all part of marketing.
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  • Profile picture of the author JRG
    Yeah I just added all books mentioned to my Amazon wish list.

    I have raised my prices after talking with AP a bit. Also redoing a lot of my methods for getting clients.

    Sometimes the hardest part of asking for more money is being really confident in what you can do for a business. I have helped a lot of friends for next to nothing. One of the businesses I help had a 25% increase in sales. He only did about 25% of what I told him to do lol. Now he is getting more serious about paying me to help him on 2010.

    It is amazing how many simple changes you can make that will earn a business more money. I have not had one client or prospect yet that is using separate phone numbers for tracking their ads! A forwarding number only costs $5 a month!

    Not one of them has had their website listed on receipts.

    Not one of them has had a plan for getting referrals from existing customers.

    Not one of them is following up with existing or prior customers.

    It's amazing how many little things they could do better!
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by JR Griggs View Post

      Sometimes the hardest part of asking for more money is being really confident in what you can do for a business. I have helped a lot of friends for next to nothing. One of the businesses I help had a 25% increase in sales. He only did about 25% of what I told him to do lol. Now he is getting more serious about paying me to help him on 2010.
      JR, somewhere out in my car I have a CD with a piece of a Dan Kennedy seminar presentation. I think I got the mp3 as a bonus with one of his books...

      Anyway, Dan said (slightly tongue in cheek) that the biggest factor in getting high fees for your service or consulting is keeping a straight face when you quote the price. He talked about practicing in front of a mirror until he could say "$5000 plus 2% royalties" without blinking or choking on it.

      Confidence is huge. It's the one and only place I believe in 'fake it 'til you make it', because as you act confident, you become confident.
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      • Profile picture of the author AP
        Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

        JR, somewhere out in my car I have a CD with a piece of a Dan Kennedy seminar presentation. I think I got the mp3 as a bonus with one of his books...

        Anyway, Dan said (slightly tongue in cheek) that the biggest factor in getting high fees for your service or consulting is keeping a straight face when you quote the price. He talked about practicing in front of a mirror until he could say "$5000 plus 2% royalties" without blinking or choking on it.

        Confidence is huge. It's the one and only place I believe in 'fake it 'til you make it', because as you act confident, you become confident.
        Last week I called several of my clients (because of this thread) and I asked them point blank "why did you decide to give me your marketing business?"

        At first they kind of laughed, then made the following statements:

        #1 answer = Your confidence

        #2 answer = Your enthusiasm

        I laughed and said "what about my marketing skills?" They made some silly comments and said, your Confidence convinced me that YOU believed you could really help my business. I believed that YOU were confident of YOUR abilities to help me. You obviously know more about Marketing my business than I do, so the decision was easy.

        That's it folks. I called my 5 highest paying clients and they all said the EXACT same thing.
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        • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
          Originally Posted by AP View Post

          Last week I called several of my clients (because of this thread) and I asked them point blank "why did you decide to give me your marketing business?"

          At first they kind of laughed, then made the following statements:

          #1 answer = Your confidence

          #2 answer = Your enthusiasm

          I laughed and said "what about my marketing skills?" They made some silly comments and said, your Confidence convinced me that YOU believed you could really help my business. I believed that YOU were confident of YOUR abilities to help me. You obviously know more about Marketing my business than I do, so the decision was easy.

          That's it folks. I called my 5 highest paying clients and they all said the EXACT same thing.
          Bingo.

          I think the problem that you will encounter on the WF (not that you will care much, as I haven't) is that a lot of people will attempt to misconstrue your genuine confidence as arrogance.
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      • Profile picture of the author Lance K
        Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

        JR, somewhere out in my car I have a CD with a piece of a Dan Kennedy seminar presentation. I think I got the mp3 as a bonus with one of his books...

        Anyway, Dan said (slightly tongue in cheek) that the biggest factor in getting high fees for your service or consulting is keeping a straight face when you quote the price. He talked about practicing in front of a mirror until he could say "$5000 plus 2% royalties" without blinking or choking on it.

        Confidence is huge. It's the one and only place I believe in 'fake it 'til you make it', because as you act confident, you become confident.
        Sound's like Dan's "Brass Balls" presentation. I pull that one out and listen to it about twice a year.
        Signature
        "You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want."
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  • Profile picture of the author Joanne Reid
    How serendipitous -- I just today had that kind of situation. I did a site for a person who had an 'expert' tell her that her site was boring and offered her own site as a model. The model site is old style, boring and has 2 of its five pages blank. It does not even show up on google if you use targeted words that appear in her site's name. My client's site ranks 3 on google in less than 2 weeks. I started to explain this to the client and figured, ah to hell with it. I offered one redo of her site and will do that and then I am out of it. I am on my way to my site to get rid of the webwork link. Done and done.

    In the day, I used to instruct in high end software and when people said they could get a better price elsewhere, I said, good for you and good luck with that. when -- invariably -- they came to me weeks later to say it didn't work out, my price doubled. Most of them accepted that without a word.
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  • Profile picture of the author gcjmarkets
    When I deal with potentiol clients I don't sell them a website, I sell them an online profit center that will act as their digital storefront. Sure anyone can create a website for $450 bucks but how will that cheap website be an asset for their business. If you educate your prospects and let them know that their website is just one tool in the tool set to staying ahead of the competition.
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  • Profile picture of the author WebSolutionKey
    Hi Christian,

    I do have many cheap clients. Be sure that 4/5 out of every 10 clients will come back to us if you keep their contact info and get back to them after a while. Bcoz such people will never get their work done at that price anywhere else.

    So, stay cool and do your business in a wise manner. Good luck for your future!!!

    Regards,
    Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author JRG
    So interesting story.

    I just got out of a meeting with a potential client's "business coach" who he hired for a 3 month term. My hope is to replace the business coach because my understanding is that the guy has done nothing for the client that has generated any profits.

    So I am there because the potential client was referred to me by another client. At this time he is only interested in me doing his website because he needs a new one and wants one that brings in traffic and converts sales.

    I figured hey if I can get in the door this way and offer some additional advise here and there that pays off maybe I can get a long term contract for all of his marketing.

    Of course I sold him on the fact that I do NOT build websites. I create profits. But being that he has paid this coach, he wanted me to see him. The biggest reason I agreed was to just see what this guy was all about.

    This guy was such a putz, lol. Extremely arrogant and made sure I understood that he has a degree in marketing, owns a couple of Wendy's restaurants and normally works with Fortune 500 companies. He even threw in a bunch of big words to sound even better.

    What was really funny is I almost feel like I told him too much, as I was explaining the importance of targeted traffic and a site that converts etc... I also told him some of the strategies I use here and there and he made sure to write all of them down. Even asking me to repeat some of them so he wrote it down correctly. I'm guessing they were things he didn't learn in "marketing school."

    Anyway, so to further prove that he knows more than me I guess, he starts asking me about whether or not I use "visual syntax" and have studied Google's report on it.

    He went on to tell me that every single person that visits a site looks at only certain spots (blah blah blah) and how all sites should basically look the same and that is what is most important.

    I thought to myself "oh crap! I better call all these marketers with one page sales letters and no fancy graphics in all the right places and tell them they are doing it wrong!"

    We can now end all split testing because every business and every product only needs one site design!

    He even drew me a picture and explained how he charges a lot of money to teach people this. And how he wants to "help" me.

    He was very upset when I told him that I can make a site with hardly any graphics convert just as well as a site loaded with all kinds of strategically placed graphics. That content and a call to action are what mattered most. And that as long as the customer got there because the keyword was optimized properly on your site and they got the info they needed immediately and then you told them what to do next (call, give me your email etc) that the site will convert.

    He for some reason did not like that I have tested different sites in different niches and each one seemed to have it's own hot spot for the optin box or phone number or video etc..

    Then after all is said and done he informs me that he would be talking with a friend who also does marketing and websites who gives a little more attention to "visual syntax" then I do and would get back to me.

    So chances are that he won't be recommending me to the prospective client and will probably be teaching his "friend" all of the notes he wrote down from me, lol.

    Am I worried? Not really because the client has great references on me and is not happy with the guy anyway. So pretty sure I will get the job and hopefully a nice monthly contract.

    So why did I just waste your time telling you all this? Well mostly to rant but to tell you about the 1 take away I did get from the meeting.

    That take away is that the guy is extremely confident in what he does. And I can see how he gets businesses to pay him for his services.

    I have no clue what he charges but he certainly does put on a good show. Now although I think his head is a few sizes too big and he needs to freshen up A LOT on his knowledge of internet marketing. I can see why people do business with him and that is his confidence and I am sure he is good at the basics with a business, but I would never let him touch a website or advice anyone on one.

    So don't think that you do not know enough to make a business a success, just be confident in what you do know and don't BS the client!

    p.s. I cannot find this guy online anywhere and when I did finally get his website address from his business card, his site does not follow any of the guidelines that he told me EVERY site must have and some of the pages are 404's lol.

    Sorry for the epic long post but wanted to tell the whole story :-)
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    • Profile picture of the author TJ Kazunga
      Some great info here and it's really made me re-focus some of my plans.

      While I will still go for lower paying clients predominantly (in the £500 - £1,00 p/month range) I will be definitely looking at how I can tap into a few higher paying clients in 2010.

      I know the thread changed from what the original OP meant, but I feel it's been one of the better ones on the "offline" niche. Thanks to all the posters but especially, AP, Michael, Vagabond and John McCabe for some great insight.
      Cheers to all
      TJ
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      JR, your story brought this to mind...

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    • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
      Originally Posted by JR Griggs View Post

      <snip>
      What was really funny is I almost feel like I told him too much, as I was explaining the importance of targeted traffic and a site that converts etc...
      <snip<
      I think you did tell him too much. You gave away valuable information and it doesn't seem like he deserved it at all. He downplayed what you said while taking notes? (A little bit of a contradiction there, no?) At least you got something out of it I guess, if you picked up presentation tips (Which is, "Acting like a pompous a$$ sometimes pays off"? lol ).
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      • Profile picture of the author JRG
        Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

        I think you did tell him too much. You gave away valuable information and it doesn't seem like he deserved it at all. He downplayed what you said while taking notes? (A little bit of a contradiction there, no?) At least you got something out of it I guess, if you picked up presentation tips (Which is, "Acting like a pompous a$$ sometimes pays off"? lol ).

        lol, well, I didn't give him anything he can't search for online. Like using all in one seo on wordpress sites etc..

        But it was an interesting meeting.
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    • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
      Originally Posted by JR Griggs View Post

      So interesting story.

      I just got out of a meeting with a potential client's "business coach" who he hired for a 3 month term. My hope is to replace the business coach because my understanding is that the guy has done nothing for the client that has generated any profits.

      So I am there because the potential client was referred to me by another client. At this time he is only interested in me doing his website because he needs a new one and wants one that brings in traffic and converts sales.

      I figured hey if I can get in the door this way and offer some additional advise here and there that pays off maybe I can get a long term contract for all of his marketing.

      Of course I sold him on the fact that I do NOT build websites. I create profits. But being that he has paid this coach, he wanted me to see him. The biggest reason I agreed was to just see what this guy was all about.

      This guy was such a putz, lol. Extremely arrogant and made sure I understood that he has a degree in marketing, owns a couple of Wendy's restaurants and normally works with Fortune 500 companies. He even threw in a bunch of big words to sound even better.

      What was really funny is I almost feel like I told him too much, as I was explaining the importance of targeted traffic and a site that converts etc... I also told him some of the strategies I use here and there and he made sure to write all of them down. Even asking me to repeat some of them so he wrote it down correctly. I'm guessing they were things he didn't learn in "marketing school."

      Anyway, so to further prove that he knows more than me I guess, he starts asking me about whether or not I use "visual syntax" and have studied Google's report on it.

      He went on to tell me that every single person that visits a site looks at only certain spots (blah blah blah) and how all sites should basically look the same and that is what is most important.

      I thought to myself "oh crap! I better call all these marketers with one page sales letters and no fancy graphics in all the right places and tell them they are doing it wrong!"

      We can now end all split testing because every business and every product only needs one site design!

      He even drew me a picture and explained how he charges a lot of money to teach people this. And how he wants to "help" me.

      He was very upset when I told him that I can make a site with hardly any graphics convert just as well as a site loaded with all kinds of strategically placed graphics. That content and a call to action are what mattered most. And that as long as the customer got there because the keyword was optimized properly on your site and they got the info they needed immediately and then you told them what to do next (call, give me your email etc) that the site will convert.

      He for some reason did not like that I have tested different sites in different niches and each one seemed to have it's own hot spot for the optin box or phone number or video etc..

      Then after all is said and done he informs me that he would be talking with a friend who also does marketing and websites who gives a little more attention to "visual syntax" then I do and would get back to me.

      So chances are that he won't be recommending me to the prospective client and will probably be teaching his "friend" all of the notes he wrote down from me, lol.

      Am I worried? Not really because the client has great references on me and is not happy with the guy anyway. So pretty sure I will get the job and hopefully a nice monthly contract.

      So why did I just waste your time telling you all this? Well mostly to rant but to tell you about the 1 take away I did get from the meeting.

      That take away is that the guy is extremely confident in what he does. And I can see how he gets businesses to pay him for his services.

      I have no clue what he charges but he certainly does put on a good show. Now although I think his head is a few sizes too big and he needs to freshen up A LOT on his knowledge of internet marketing. I can see why people do business with him and that is his confidence and I am sure he is good at the basics with a business, but I would never let him touch a website or advice anyone on one.

      So don't think that you do not know enough to make a business a success, just be confident in what you do know and don't BS the client!

      p.s. I cannot find this guy online anywhere and when I did finally get his website address from his business card, his site does not follow any of the guidelines that he told me EVERY site must have and some of the pages are 404's lol.

      Sorry for the epic long post but wanted to tell the whole story :-)

      You've described one of the biggest frustrations in my entire career... some douchetard that has the confidence (at some level) of the business owner, that speaks completely out of their league and is an obvious nitwit.

      Steam rollering them isn't always the best strategy though, because you never know if the person is the owner's son-in-law or something like that.
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      • Profile picture of the author JRG
        Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

        You've described one of the biggest frustrations in my entire career... some douchetard that has the confidence (at some level) of the business owner, that speaks completely out of their league and is an obvious nitwit.

        Steam rollering them isn't always the best strategy though, because you never know if the person is the owner's son-in-law or something like that.
        Yeah this guy literally got upset because I used the term "Joint Venture" to describe 2 businesses in a similar industry, that I set up to sell each others services.

        I have no doubt that the guy is knowledgeable in marketing and probably has helped many businesses I just couldn't believe the arrogance and the ignorance on websites.


        I think I created a great quote from it

        "Arrogance is much closer to Ignorance than Confidence"

        lol
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      • Profile picture of the author blur
        Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

        ...douchetard ...
        That is my new favorite word.

        I was always under the impression that you never sell the product but you sell the benefits to the potential client.
        Signature

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  • Profile picture of the author JRG
    lol that's awesome!

    Hey John I'm assuming that I am only a few hours away from you, so make sure that if you head up this way to let me know so we can do lunch.
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  • Profile picture of the author BlogDesign
    One of the best threads on here I have read in a while. Appreciate all the nuggets of truth that everyone has submitted.
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  • Profile picture of the author activetrader
    Originally Posted by Christian Sawyer View Post


    What would be your best comeback, against one of these cheap clients if you could say it without repercussion?

    Let's hear what you guys have to say!
    Great! Have him do it!
    Signature

    Me

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    • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
      Originally Posted by activetrader View Post

      Great! Have him do it!
      That's pretty much how I respond. Better to step back from a punch than step into one, lol.
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      Project HERE.

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  • Profile picture of the author klittle
    Hey Christian

    What a great post!

    It made me laugh.

    Thank you for making my day.

    Keith
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  • Profile picture of the author TyBrown
    I guess the question is, what value does the other guy provide for his price vs. yours? Is it less value than yours? If so, that is where the whole sales process is about education and teaching your prospect why you are the best and that price isn't a factor.

    When people buy based on price it is because they are looking at the service as a commodity. That's not a good business to be in. You need to be educating your prospect on why you are always the absolute best and then price is much lower on their list of priorities.
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  • Profile picture of the author stan1111
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    • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles

      I do outsource technical grunt work quite heavily. But there's not a single thing that I couldn't actually do myself, which is why I am comfortable turning loose of it. I could finish nearly any technical task myself if my outsourced resource screwed up the job.
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      • Profile picture of the author Buildingfutures
        Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

        I do outsource technical grunt work quite heavily. But there's not a single thing that I couldn't actually do myself, which is why I am comfortable turning loose of it. I could finish nearly any technical task myself if my outsourced resource screwed up the job.
        Which, Mike, is a fantastic and very golden idea in itself.

        We all know outsourcing something is fantastic, saves time, etc. But what happens when your outsourcer meets deadline, and then you read some of the things he wrote, coded, etc.

        Its not right!

        If you don't know how to fix it, you've immediately put yourself back and may have to wait days to get it fixed by the guy (I'm thinking worst case scenario, when the guy has a, you know, life).

        My girlfriend thinks I'm crazy to want to learn as much html, java, php, copywriting, marketing, etc info that I can. But it will all help in the long run.

        Hopefully I can put it all to use as a consultant myself one day. Right now I don't feel I have the necessary abilities to promise "profits".

        One day.

        Thanks Christian for this thread, I've got notes out the wazoo on it.

        And thank you Mike, for your continued participation.

        -Sean
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  • Profile picture of the author stan1111
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    • Profile picture of the author MADULALI
      Stan1111,

      You don't have to be good at web design. You can outsource those services.

      Where the big money is and where you will be regarded as a 'trusted advisor' is to show them how to make more money or save money/time.

      This is more simple then one may think. In most business they are very inefficiently run.

      You could very simply be the middle man by suggesting stuff that needs to be done and then setting up jv's and get a portion of the profits.

      Expect Abundance,

      Michael

      Originally Posted by stan1111 View Post

      Thank you Michael
      As a consultant do you work by yourself? Talk to the businesses and give your team of people instruction how you want things to be done? I understand IM but I am not good at web design, codes etc. Do you know if there is a blueprint of that business where I could read. Once is up and running will be much easier i know that.
      Thanks
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    • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
      Originally Posted by stan1111 View Post

      Thank you Michael
      As a consultant do you work by yourself? Talk to the businesses and give your team of people instruction how you want things to be done? I understand IM but I am not good at web design, codes etc. Do you know if there is a blueprint of that business where I could read. Once is up and running will be much easier i know that.
      Thanks
      You don't have to be "good" at web design. You have to understand web design because it's not as simple as just outsourcing everything and standing back while the machine runs with perpetual motion.

      Outsourced resources are like any other employee, and occasionally, they will fail to deliver when you're pressed up against the calendar for a deadline. In this instance, it's very helpful to understand every aspect of what goes into your project well enough to quickly engage an alternative.

      Anyone preaching outsourcing without also teaching "always have a backup plan to deliver" simply doesn't have any depth of experience with it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Lincoln Ryan
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  • Profile picture of the author stan1111
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    • Profile picture of the author Russ Reynolds
      Originally Posted by stan1111 View Post

      I have been reading some reports... I have been driving around today . I am working on some plans and execution.
      Stan
      Hey Stan..you sound like the sales guys I've trained over the years - gettin' ready to get ready!

      Really I am just kidding - don't know you of course but you might want to keep yourself in check to make sure you are not making excuses to keep from getting started - I have seen it time and again.

      Cheers,

      russ
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    • Profile picture of the author MADULALI
      Originally Posted by stan1111 View Post

      Thanks Madulali and Michael. I have been reading some reports from Andrew Cavanagh. I have been driving around today and I have noticed there are so many businesses around that it would be imposible not get some jobs just to get started. I am working on some plans and execution. Thank you for helping.
      Stan
      Stan111,

      You are welcome. The main thing to keep in mind is to take Massive Action.

      You don't have to get it right, just get it going.

      Said another way...Ready!..Fire!..Aim!!

      You can always make adjustment as you go along.

      Remember that "MONEY loves speed!!!"


      Michael
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  • Profile picture of the author Bayo
    This is more about how to avoid an 'insulting' situation in the first place.

    Allow your prospects to pre-qualify themsleves through your marketing and sales process.

    It takes a little effort but pays off.
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  • Profile picture of the author MADULALI
    A simple point to keep in mind...

    If they give you a hassle going in, then they will be a hassle through out the relationship.

    Most times it is best to just say see you later alligator.


    Expect Abundance,

    Michael
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  • Profile picture of the author Fernando Veloso
    Great knowledge in this thread alone. Thanks for that guys, really REALLY appreciated. Me and my wife are brainstorming over here

    Now, we're growing our customer list every month (75% is webdesign and graphic design for print jobs) BUT we really want to target customers to whom we can deliver our knowledge in SEO, List building, lead generation, etc: bigger customers.

    One thing I don't understand is how can we get to those bigger customers (even if we prove we know what we're doing)? How can we compete with big advertisement companies?

    This is what I find difficult, since locally we can grab new customers quite easily.

    And yes, we have a professional website, we have a good personal presentation, we have good connections and referrals. We don't hide our phone number We've been doing this fulltime since 2004, yet, we can't manage to grab big fish - except a good work for a BIG company this month and a World Championship event last October/November - we created the marketing for them, both web and print.

    What's your advice, even with little info on we and what we do?

    Appreciate your ideas!! Thanks.
    Signature
    People make good money selling to the rich. But the rich got rich selling to the masses.
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    • Profile picture of the author MADULALI
      Originally Posted by Fernando Veloso View Post

      Great knowledge in this thread alone. Thanks for that guys, really REALLY appreciated. Me and my wife are brainstorming over here

      Now, we're growing our customer list every month (75% is webdesign and graphic design for print jobs) BUT we really want to target customers to whom we can deliver our knowledge in SEO, List building, lead generation, etc: bigger customers.

      One thing I don't understand is how can we get to those bigger customers (even if we prove we know what we're doing)? How can we compete with big advertisement companies?

      This is what I find difficult, since locally we can grab new customers quite easily.

      And yes, we have a professional website, we have a good personal presentation, we have good connections and referrals. We don't hide our phone number We've been doing this fulltime since 2004, yet, we can't manage to grab big fish - except a good work for a BIG company this month and a World Championship event last October/November - we created the marketing for them, both web and print.

      What's your advice, even with little info on we and what we do?

      Appreciate your ideas!! Thanks.
      Based upon the limited information about your background that I have, I will try to give you some insight.

      Taking for granted that you have a great presentation, you are very good at what you do etc...it seems that your problem is that you, when making your presentation, are not speaking with the decision maker.

      If you do not talk with the decision maker, then you will just be turning your wheels.


      Expect Abundance,

      Michael
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  • Profile picture of the author freudianslip27
    I just dumped a client that's been dragging me down for the past 5 months and it felt GOOD.

    I never should have taken them on, but did because I had just started doing this full-time and took every chance i got. It was a big mistake because it really drained my energy and held me back from further expanding my business.

    It's a broken business model that I was actually working harder for my cheaper clients. They were much more demanding and wanted to question everything, and sometimes even get in the way.

    The clients that understand and appreciate what I do, they just let me do it. Those are the types of people I need to be focusing on!

    Matt
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  • Profile picture of the author Groovy99
    An advertising guy I once knew always said that you had to hear 20 NO responses to get to a YES. Say Thanks a Lot Mr. Jones! Have a great day! Then move onto #2.
    Signature

    Patrick
    "The business that considers itself immune to the necessity for advertising sooner or later finds itself immune to business."
    connecticut internet marketing - Get in, TAKE OFF!
    business card printing

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  • Profile picture of the author NewbiesDiary
    I work exclusively with one offline niche and travel the country doing so - making (usually) $1200 + per day when I make my calls.

    During my visit I let them know that I've studied internet marketing for over 6 years (the truth) and that I also am passionate about their industry (also the truth and it shows when I talk to them).

    By the time I've finished explaining my annual membership site and exactly what it offers them, once I've proved I understand their issues and concerns with their current methods of marketing, when I shown that I can do what I say I can do - but this stage they are expecting to pay 20 times what I'm charging. I give them my annual price, then go back and tell them something I 'forgot' to mention and let that figure rattle around in their minds for a couple of minutes. Then I laugh and apologise for getting side tracked, (I'm just so passionate about this industry) then I give them my special price - a 25% lifetime discount plus - because I know their time is valuable and they dont want to learn about this internet marketing / web development - I do all the updates on their site for them too.

    I also make sure I show them all the other businesses in this niche - their competition - who have just joined in the last couple of days.

    By the time I do all of this there really is no question of them disputing the price or the fact that they need me - they often comment that I haven't left them with any choice - they HAVE to join to stay in the game!

    So the short answer is - answer ALL their objections before they get a chance to voice them - it leaves them with nothing else to say but "yes".
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Originally Posted by Christian Sawyer View Post

    He explained that we was getting "the works", a full website package + marketing for $450!

    What would be your best comeback, against one of these cheap clients if you could say it without repercussion?
    I would do exactly the same thing as he did with prices like that. Shop around for a better price. Being smart isn't the same thing as being cheap.
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    • Profile picture of the author cityofangels
      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      I would do exactly the same thing as he did with prices like that. Shop around for a better price. Being smart isn't the same thing as being cheap.
      There's nothing wrong with comparison shopping but there are a lot of tire kickers out there and people who want to pick your brain for free. You can't spend too much time on those people b/c it's not a good use of your time.

      Not to mention, if these prospects see these deals that are 'too good to be true', then they aren't really serious about what they're trying to do.
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by cityofangels View Post

        There's nothing wrong with comparison shopping but there are a lot of tire kickers out there and people who want to pick your brain for free. You can't spend too much time on those people b/c it's not a good use of your time.

        Not to mention, if these prospects see these deals that are 'too good to be true', then they aren't really serious about what they're trying to do.
        That's a certainty. I don't mind some tire kicking, but some take it way too far. I put Flip Ace on sale over the holidays and someone pm'd me saying he was unsure whether or not to buy it at *** $13 *** with 2 pages of pretty good things said about it in the WSO and proceeded to ask me 20 questions that would be answered if he bought the ebook. I just didn't respond to the pm. Thought I was being kinder that way.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jay Rhome
    This thread is beyond great! Many thanks to AP, MichaelHiles, Madulali and Vagabond amongst many others! Not only are your advice solid, you flesh it out really well with examples - these help A LOT in making everything more real. I learned so much from AP bits of his conversations with clients.

    I know you've changed my mindset and made see way more opportunities that were already there yet I didn't see before.

    I feel I can somehow slightly contribute back to you guys with two book recommendations:

    Never Eat Alone - if you want to take your networking and people skills to another level

    177 Mental Toughness Secrets of the World Class - Best "personal development" book I've ever read. It goes to show the author isn't king at marketing cause this deserves top spot. BTW for the people who don't like to read: each "secret" is 1 to 4 pages long. You can read one every other day for the year if you chose to
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  • Profile picture of the author JonWebContent
    You don't need a comeback. You need to pre-qualify him.

    You said you sent over 3 separate rates/plans with wide gaps. He chose some guy that charged him $450, which means he's not looking to spend a high amount for a website. You should have never sent him the $1,200 or $800 plans. The first time you spoke with him, you should have been able to gather what his budget is and what he's looking for. It's quite possible the $1,200 and $800 plans scared him off because he may have just assumed the $600 plan was some garbage plan with no value. Had you ONLY sold him the $600 plan, he may have not gone out searching for a cheaper web designer.

    When people see 3 plans with differing price values, even if they're cheap, they often assume the cheapest plan isn't that good. The other guy probably just offered him a $450 plan and told him how amazing the plan is. Always pre-qualify.
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  • Profile picture of the author zephrah
    Good information here! The diverse opinions are captivating as well as instructional for me. I am just starting out in this venture and so all of this is nuggets .... and the tips on Positioning are PURE GOLD and sweet music to my ears. I should have known this from my offline jobs.. but my brain didn't transfer! LOL Thanks for re-arranging my brain for productive action.
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  • Profile picture of the author sloanjim
    hmm...i think many of you guys charge far too high of a price...It's all well to try and sell your self a s a results company etc..but if i can get thos same results for 1/2 price guess where i am going?

    so why is that acertainty? Maybe he's just not read all your magic "How to screw your customers and get thanked for it." books?

    Who do you think they call when the $450 website guy screws them over?
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  • Profile picture of the author MaxReferrals
    Disqualify people early, rather than try to qualify them thru the sales process after UMPteem meetings, followups.

    You have to do it delicately, but can save an ENORMOUS amount of time and energy.
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    • Profile picture of the author paulie888
      Originally Posted by MaxReferrals View Post

      Disqualify people early, rather than try to qualify them thru the sales process after UMPteem meetings, followups.

      You have to do it delicately, but can save an ENORMOUS amount of time and energy.
      I couldn't agree more. I have had dealings with cheap/frugal prospective clients before that took far too long, and it ended up being a huge time and emotional drain that was taking away my focus from other more productive activities. Qualifying people is a skill that will come after you've had some experience in the field, and while it can be difficult to disqualify prospects and "fire" them, believe me when I say that it's going to be for the best to do it sooner rather than later!
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  • Profile picture of the author mclainbarbosa
    You have got his funds. Who cares if he insults you? You can tell your friends I ate your socks as long as you cough up the funds you owe me.
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  • Profile picture of the author grin
    That is a price shopper, and he probably had someone he already works with or whatever. The main thing is that people do not work or hire you because of your price, they hire you because they like working with YOU; the value.

    When I sense that someone is price shopping, I tend to tell them it is high or low. If you set it low, that is "kind of unethical", but not if you go high. Either way, you could say "Yeah I do full blown twenty pages and the works for $250 - but I just got busy", in which case they go to their "other guy" and ask why they are not getting the $250 deal.

    Or you can Go high, and if he bites - then more power to ya!

    When someone asks for a quote or a price too early - it's rarely a good thing. Unless we have spoken about what it is I can do, what they need and other expectations and requirements price is not really an issue.

    If you are going for revenue (the fluid movement of customers) then you lower your price a little, but anytime you are doing fine you raise your rates. So when someone asks what your price is, they may be testing out several things in their head, but one of them is how DESPERATE are you for revenue. These kind of price shoppers also tend to have their own business setup like this, and are always worried about micro-managing price rather than actually focusing on cost.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    I'd say, "Tell you what, I could at least register your domain for you and park a page up there so you can at least be available online for your customers to contact you ... then down the road when it starts bringing in biz... And you are ready to expand we can expand on it over time as resources are available... Even if we dont do the major work till later, I'd like to earn your business today..., in the meantime I can do a little here or there and try to boost it on the search engines a little...Would that help you out Bob"?

    You never know, over the next 2 years Bob might be worth 10 or 20k to you in referrals... never miss an opportunity to make someone a client. Dont give them more than you can afford to, at least pay for your hour of time... but dont let them get away without making them a client.

    EVENTUALLY everyone decides to start spending money on their website, if they have one... if they dont, then this could go on for years... make sure he has one, that way he will be proud to tell people and start getting emotionally invested in it. Most likely he WILL spend money on it later, as it becomes more and more of a point of reference in his daily business. Maybe even take 20.00 of the $100 he gives you and buy him some business cards with his web address... let him pass those out and get more invested in his site...

    Nail him even if he gives you only $100. Do him a favor and say "Would that help you out Bob"?

    Oblige him. Kill him with kindness. NAIL THE SALE WHILE YOU HAVE THE CHANCE if at all possible. Basically he just showed you "If you would have offered me a workable solution like a small down payment... You could have nailed me for the whole $600 package". He basically said that with his actions. His objection was real and it was really a money issue/haggling issue, unless he's just making up a story to blow you off... but assuming he's serious; What does this tell you?

    SOMETHING AWESOME!

    Yes.

    It says it really was a good appointment, and that you really WERENT kidding yourself, but that you just stopped rebuttaling a little too soon. You stopped the negotiations just a little to soon... offering a couple more potential solutions for billing may have NAILED this appointment.

    So now, the next time you see that, you will say.... "Let me try to tweak my offer a little more for this guy, let me try to negotiate just a little more, and come up with a solution that works a little better for him. He might just do it yet... and keep asking him "Would that help you out Bob...".

    A Successful offline business will try their hardest to help a customer make a purchase. Later down the road they will spend more, if you help them trust me. Be the mouse that takes the thorn out of the lions paw. They will appreciate you later.

    So , I might call him back up if I were you and say "look Bob, I really wanted to earn your business let me offer you a couple more solutions here, heck I am willing work a little to earn your business and once I do this work you'll see it was a good investment... If I can work with you like that would that help you out"?

    Now is this jumping through hoops?

    No its just a shot in the dark 60 second phone call... you have about a 50/50 shot.

    Why not just walk away on this one and brush it off...?

    1: Because in this case there is clearly a solution that can be offered as one last shot to put a grand in your pocket, over the course of the next year at least.

    2: Because it only takes 60 seconds to take that shot, but it might take 2 hours to set another appointment.

    Its just a matter of efficiency/ergonomics!

    Hope this helps.
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  • Profile picture of the author daleshorse
    Over 25 years ago in horseshoeing school my instructor told the class someday a client will tell you they can get a horse shod cheaper by someone else and this is what you tell them: "My price reflects the quality of my work, I can only assume the other guy's price does the same".

    Pretty simple stuff, kept my ego and spirit intact for years.
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    • Profile picture of the author John Durham
      Originally Posted by daleshorse View Post

      Over 25 years ago in horseshoeing school my instructor told the class someday a client will tell you they can get a horse shod cheaper by someone else and this is what you tell them: "My price reflects the quality of my work, I can only assume the other guy's price does the same".

      Pretty simple stuff, kept my ego and spirit intact for years.
      Wow!

      Best one yet! Thats a good one! Thanks!
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      • Profile picture of the author Defunct
        For people replying to the OP, the original post was over 2 years ago.
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        • Profile picture of the author John Durham
          Originally Posted by Defunct View Post

          For people replying to the OP, the original post was over 2 years ago.
          Thanks, didnt know that. Who knew that two years later it would still be useful ... Butterfly affect. Its still so relevent that the last 6 or 7 posters didnt even realize the op was long gone two years ago.

          The dialogue flows naturally with current dialogue...
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    • Profile picture of the author Amir Luis
      Originally Posted by daleshorse View Post

      Over 25 years ago in horseshoeing school my instructor told the class someday a client will tell you they can get a horse shod cheaper by someone else and this is what you tell them: "My price reflects the quality of my work, I can only assume the other guy's price does the same".

      Pretty simple stuff, kept my ego and spirit intact for years.
      I don't care if this is an old thread or not...

      This qoute from Dale Horse was worth the reading....

      Dale... I will give you credit three times before I claim it as my own...
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  • Profile picture of the author jherewini
    Christian, I am in the same boat as you, my local area has been hit financially and so many of the businesses I speak to use price objections, in my early days I used to do exactly as you did in your openning. It's different for me now, I guess it's because my skin in the game is thicker here's how I handle the "your price is to much objection".
    I now come back with this question how much bottom line profit would your business get from 20 new customers? Wait for their answer and make a note of that?
    Then I would ask them have you done any advertising with radio, newspaper, yellow pages? They usually say yes? that's when I go into their customer acquistion costs. by the end of that discussion
    My new client is aware of how much money they are spending in traditional advertising to buy their customers and what each customer is costing them to buy on average it works out that each customer is costing them around $70 each to buy I then use that figure and show them how my services can reduce that cost down to around $5-10
    per customer to buy
    My closing is simple which would you prefer to pay? The answers a no brainer. I then give them another optional close and say is it easier for you to pay me monthly or weekly?
    Based on that answer I then say can you give me a cheque today for this month and we set up an automatic payment for the rest?
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  • Profile picture of the author thattaway
    Nice to see AP on this thread. He dishes out brutal tough love and I have learned a lot from him. And I agree with Vagabond 007 about the "yeah buts..." I find that I learn more by listening than by defending my status quo. Thanks for all the good feedback. Christian, I hope you found it as valuable as I did.
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